00:00:52 -!- RandomBK has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:03:56 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-1133-g64494c2 (32) 00:20:18 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-1133-g64494c2 00:27:55 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 00:42:24 -!- G-Flex has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:43:51 -!- G-Flex has joined ##crawl-dev 01:10:36 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:11:00 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 01:51:01 -!- bhaak_ is now known as bhaak 01:55:09 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:02:34 -!- bhahn has left ##crawl-dev 02:18:54 -!- unferth has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:57:46 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 03:38:18 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 03:50:02 Hmh, trees block attack command for allies, that feels a little wrong. 03:51:55 -!- Mottie has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:58:42 it feels wrong to me too 04:06:33 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 04:11:32 Retaliation headbutts can hit rock worms in walls. 04:17:45 Is this not as it should be? If they peek their bits out to attack, they leave themselves vulnerable to counterattack. 04:24:46 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 04:25:26 also 04:25:40 as a green drac in spider form, I drank a potion of strong poison and didn't get poisoned 04:25:49 in fact, the potion's name was normal-colored 04:25:54 not marked as dangerous *or* useless 04:26:11 to reiterate: it didn't poison me even though I had rPois- at the time due to spider form 04:43:01 -!- ToBeFree has joined ##crawl-dev 04:47:18 I HAD NOTHING oh never mind 05:09:15 -!- Napkin_ is now known as Napkin 05:14:27 -!- blabber_ has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:14:52 -!- Ragdoll has joined ##crawl-dev 06:05:37 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 07:29:54 I seriously think we should remove the increased noise in tomb 07:30:07 it doesn't do anything apart from cause even more stairdancing 07:33:04 in practice i don't think the background noise stuff adds anything to the game 07:33:08 anywhere 07:33:36 even if it doesn't make flavor sense, i think it'd be better mechanically if noise worked the same everywhere 07:40:49 -!- headzone has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:42:58 -!- ToBeFree has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:57:31 -!- headzone has joined ##crawl-dev 07:59:09 agreed 07:59:28 so it seems like there's some bug that causes twice as many orb guardians to appear in the orb chamber 08:00:10 I presume it is causes by the orb mimic patch, looking over the des I don't see anything though 08:10:20 it's probably not in the patch itself, then 08:10:29 it's probably in some code that e.g. looks for things defined as orbs and spawns orb guardians around them 08:11:43 it looks like they are being placed in bands 08:12:22 in the games that is, not in the code 08:18:04 Twice as many orb guardians are being placed in the orb chamber. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5561) by st 08:22:48 i agree with the noise stuff, aside from making tomb less fun it is also barely documented and makes stealth more complicated than it needs to be 08:34:47 hey, possible to get some support on web tiles? :) 08:47:51 03dolorous * rae58e5e8c0d7 10/crawl-ref/source/godabil.cc: Add a message for when Fedhas' evolution is used on oklob saplings. 09:07:24 -!- Patashu has quit [Quit: MSN: Patashu@hotmail.com , Gmail: Patashu0@gmail.com , AIM: Patashu0 , YIM: patashu2 , Skype: patashu0 .] 09:18:15 03dolorous * r6b719768f354 10/crawl-ref/source/melee_attack.cc: Add minor cosmetic fix. 09:34:16 -!- mikee_ has quit [Quit: Try HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-] 09:43:01 -!- headzone has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:46:37 -!- headzone has joined ##crawl-dev 09:57:35 Mimics on D:1? 10:01:54 as long as they're club mimics 10:10:24 03|amethyst * reeb1e1692ad1 10/crawl-ref/source/potion.cc: Don't let rP- protect from potions of poison. 10:10:35 Eronarn: Doors, staircases? 10:10:56 Got three D:1 mimics in two games and now an Ogre. 10:12:08 not that I think they are worth anything anyway but mimics being so common makes them pretty mundane 10:12:13 03|amethyst 07stone_soup-0.10 * r79e92fb0107a 10/crawl-ref/source/potion.cc: Don't let rP- protect from potions of poison. 10:12:42 yeah, mimics should be pretty rare (i think if they were vault-only that might even be better) 10:12:58 I like how they surprise you. 10:13:16 I wish there were more monsters like that, invisible until you get close. But not while fightting. 10:13:20 -t 10:17:30 i think we need a pack monster that does that 10:18:22 also you know what would be cool? flickering monsters that all flicker at the same time 10:19:27 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.11-a0-1135-g6b71976 (32) 10:20:10 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:20:51 I've thought before that mimics should be about 1/2 as common as they are now, they really aren't very surprising 10:21:01 door mimics are cool in how they are a monster that blocks los, though 10:21:02 also on mimics: putting a speed 10 monster that has rF rC rPois and rN that early is sort of bad 10:21:21 Wait, I thought certain mimics had less speed than that 10:21:54 I think they are all 10 now 10:22:05 I feel like I've had som tough openings today, did early D get harder or am I just lucky? 10:22:45 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 10:23:16 i found a gnoll zombie in my entry vault, that was pretty awful 10:23:38 I got a D:1 Ogre, then several orc packs and double ogres before D:5 10:25:11 <|amethyst> %git :/easy monsters 10:25:11 galehar * r33d24bfa946d: Remove the chance for easy monsters in lower D. (3 days ago, 1 file, 0+ 3-) 10:25:24 <|amethyst> yes, early D got harder 10:25:24 Awesome 10:25:26 I like it! 10:25:33 Thanks |amethyst 10:25:55 <|amethyst> (that didn't increase the max, but removed the 1/4 chance to cut a monster's power 10:26:18 <|amethyst> so it's only a slight increase, but probably noticeable) 10:27:04 <|amethyst> hm 10:27:10 <|amethyst> actually, that might not affect D:1 10:27:45 I thought there was some special casing disallowing Ogres on D:1? Or is that justg noll packs and such? 10:48:32 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 11:03:22 -!- Mottie has joined ##crawl-dev 11:04:16 -!- blabber has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:04:27 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 11:15:19 -!- blabber has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:15:25 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 11:26:34 -!- Xiberia has joined ##crawl-dev 11:33:50 -!- Pingas has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:15:39 kilobyte, i tried '-lexecinfo' on freebsd: http://p.nnev.de/2475 12:15:49 is this te expected result? 12:18:02 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 12:30:50 -!- shirish has joined ##crawl-dev 12:43:27 -!- G-Flex has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:44:49 -!- G-Flex has joined ##crawl-dev 12:54:17 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 13:07:13 -!- Pacra has left ##crawl-dev 13:17:34 -!- ToBeFree has joined ##crawl-dev 13:19:37 -!- RandomBK has joined ##crawl-dev 13:19:49 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 13:21:52 for a linux local tiles compile, is USE_GLES defined in the source? 13:23:30 <|amethyst> no, it should only be defined if you did make GLES=something 13:23:57 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 13:26:34 Kyouki (L12 SpAr) ERROR in 'tileweb.cc' at line 171: Webtiles message too long! (-1) (D:14) 13:28:33 Kyouki (L12 SpAr) ERROR in 'tileweb.cc' at line 171: Webtiles message too long! (-1) (D:14) 13:29:06 Kyouki (L12 SpAr) ERROR in 'tileweb.cc' at line 171: Webtiles message too long! (-1) (D:14) 13:29:21 Kyouki (L12 SpAr) ERROR in 'tileweb.cc' at line 171: Webtiles message too long! (-1) (D:14) 13:36:01 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 13:46:09 I love how a giant club can cover up a whole hill giant corpse :) 13:46:47 it's a pretty big club 13:48:33 It's giant. 13:48:39 Says it right on the tin., 13:49:46 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 13:50:34 When running with GLES, the game gives a segfault in glwrapper-ogl.cc, when OGLStateManager constructor is called. Specifically, it occurs whenever I call an OGL function like glEnable or glBlendFunc. Im fairly new with OpenGL... Can anyone help? 14:30:20 smarmy (L11 DsVM) (Lair:3) 14:36:26 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 14:44:37 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:47:56 -!- RandomBK has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:54:27 Guys I just had an idea 14:54:50 randarts with evokable qualities that can only be evoked so many times (like a wand), so boots with +haste(5) or something of that sort 14:57:48 -!- Randombk has joined ##crawl-dev 14:58:16 what file contains the code that reads the tileset pngs from the disk? 15:25:26 03|amethyst * refba5851daec 10/crawl-ref/source/ (libunix.cc message.cc): Do not crash when the terminal window is resized. 15:25:37 03|amethyst * r833bd902677b 10/crawl-ref/source/stuff.cc: Actually repaint after drawing the message window. 15:31:49 -!- Blade- has joined ##crawl-dev 15:33:18 -!- ToBeFree has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:40:20 03|amethyst 07stone_soup-0.10 * r0f52ca6e4944 10/crawl-ref/source/ (libunix.cc message.cc): Do not crash when the terminal window is resized. 15:40:20 03|amethyst 07stone_soup-0.10 * rf8cb65b28434 10/crawl-ref/source/stuff.cc: Actually repaint after drawing the message window. 15:44:47 The message "You cannot pick everything up without burdening yourself" appears before "Your pack is full." 15:45:10 i.e. if you try to pick something up after getting that message, only then will you see that your pack is full 15:45:18 it seems more intuitive to tell people first that their pack is full. 15:47:21 <|amethyst> looks like that would require some code restructuring 15:47:38 <|amethyst> since we don't find out that the pack is full until calling move_item_to_player() 15:47:56 New early D is just great. 15:48:08 oh, okay. Then no big deal 15:48:24 I don't know how it is for the weaker combos though... 15:48:40 <|amethyst> (you can't just check the number of items in the pack because some of the floor items might stack with pack items) 15:51:25 ghallberg: I really thought this change would have a more significant impact on mid and late dungeon than early. 15:51:51 What if both messages were displayed? 15:52:25 galehar: It's both I guess but I keep dying stupidly. 15:52:30 <|amethyst> Blade-: The game would still have to try moving the items to the player to find out the pack is full 15:52:41 ah 15:52:51 <|amethyst> Blade-: which raises the question of which to try (since we can't do all of them) 15:53:40 <|amethyst> not to say it can't be fixed, of course 15:53:47 -!- syllogism- has joined ##crawl-dev 15:53:50 <|amethyst> just that it's tricky :) 15:54:43 -!- syllogism has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:55:28 <|amethyst> Ideally you'd like to be able to ask whether you have pack space for the whole stack 15:57:01 <|amethyst> which would involve extracting the stacking and pack space checks from move_item_to_player() into a new function 15:57:55 <|amethyst> It's still worth a bug report probably 15:59:06 all right, I'll whip one up 16:14:17 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:19:53 -!- Randombk has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:21:48 -!- shmup has joined ##crawl-dev 16:22:07 Napkin: ping 16:25:55 Autopickup with full pack/burdenment (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5562) by Blade 16:26:09 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 16:26:22 I wasn't sure where to file it so I just put it under bug report (tweak) 16:26:28 hey dpeg :) 16:26:41 Hallo" 16:27:24 hi dpeg 16:28:09 Blade-: probably counts as a bug, if the message is wrong or misleading 16:28:20 bhaak: no reply yet!? :) 16:28:32 bhaak: but awesome to see you pick up the convict patch! 16:28:37 all right; good to know 16:29:12 <|amethyst> Blade-: I'd do Bug report (text) but it's not worth changing 16:29:21 <|amethyst> tweak is fine 16:29:32 Oh, I didn't see text in the options. 16:29:43 dpeg: i'm still sulking over your harsh reply to a simple typo that was induced by my emotional disrupted state after being compared to a fossilized nh player 16:29:49 <|amethyst> (and arguably, since it's more than just changing the text of a message, "tweak" is better anyway) 16:33:33 so, about constriction damage. For nerfing damage, I suggest we simply remove the effect of duration. It seems to me that it doesn't add much besides complexity. 16:34:02 bhaak: hehe, takes times getting over the Janis comparison :) 16:34:14 galehar: it does weak player constriction 16:34:42 galehar: what? the duration effect is my favorite part of it I think... 16:34:52 becomes really boring without it 16:34:59 dpeg: it does. We can counter balance it my making the damage 2d(str/4) instead of 2d(str/5) 16:35:27 elliptic: if we keep it, I think we need to change the formula 16:35:28 we have lots of other effects that do the same damage each turn (clouds, poison, sticky flame) 16:35:33 why? 16:35:35 galehar: the point (and I think elliptic means the same) is that constricting a monster as Na/Oc is really good -- if you can do it for long enough 16:35:57 galehar: seriously, I think the damage formula is the least broken part of it 16:36:06 if you have good defense, you can deal a lot of damage with it even without any str 16:36:13 That sounds fine 16:36:27 elliptic: what do you think is most broken about it? 16:37:09 dpeg: chance of starting constriction is too high IMO 16:37:26 it shouldn't be something that triggers on the first attack nearly every time 16:37:40 elliptic: don't you think it should be capped or something? 16:37:40 I also think that it would be nice if blink was less good against it 16:37:42 elliptic: ah, of course. That surely needs tuning. 16:37:50 elliptic: well... 16:37:59 galehar: maybe a stepdown 16:38:13 <|amethyst> haha 16:38:20 (that was a serious suggestion) 16:38:32 I took it as such. 16:38:33 (but use a smooth stepdown) 16:38:34 <|amethyst> It's not that I thought it was non-serious 16:38:37 <|amethyst> oh 16:38:47 elliptic: wouldn't it be better if the duration bonus was proportional to the base damage? 16:39:03 elliptic> becomes really boring without it 16:39:11 agree, it's the entire point 16:39:12 galehar: probably, yeah 16:39:33 I forget what the current formula actually is; it just seems to work all right in practice 16:39:44 elliptic: how does a smooth stepdown works? Do we have a function? 16:40:07 <|amethyst> someone suggested one in C-R-D some time ago I think 16:40:12 shmup? 16:40:14 a random question, how well does the new escape formula work? Is it possible to actually struggle free in a reasonable way now? 16:40:20 for blinking, it could have a chance to fail and increase escape_attempts by some 16:40:24 galehar: https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5276 16:40:29 evilmike: seems a lot better 16:40:35 Napkin: need more shmups, yes 16:40:39 I haven't actually tried it, out of old habits 16:40:45 <|amethyst> Napkin: if he doesn't show back up, it was something related to the blog 16:40:49 <|amethyst> Napkin: and RSS 16:41:28 :) 16:41:36 galehar: as a random suggestion, maybe have blink increment escape_attempts by 2 and then check that 16:41:43 oh hey Napkin 16:41:47 galehar: could reimplement the "monster comes along with you" thing if it's done more carefully... and then have it so blinks and teleports count as escape attempts 16:41:59 i was told that you were who to talk to in regards to something dev blog related, on the RSS side 16:42:00 if it fails, the monster comes along, if it succeeds, you get a normal blink? 16:42:02 hi shmup - what's up? 16:42:02 that is what I was about to suggest 16:42:09 try :) 16:42:17 I dunno how well that would work in gameplay, its just a thought 16:42:18 i'm not sure if this is a template situation, an option posts get set while writing the post or what but.. 16:42:29 would you be willing to allow posts to be read in full from RSS? 16:42:41 I think a less dangerous reimplementation of "the monster comes along" would be really good 16:42:44 now the RSS gives you a read more situation 16:42:47 <|amethyst> the transloc restrictions will have to be re-done 16:43:00 <|amethyst> the implementation was buggy as hell last time 16:43:10 <|amethyst> which I think is the main reason kilobyte ripped it out 16:43:19 i don't like the idea f blinks/tlocs counting as escape attempts because constriction doesn't otherwise interfere with spells 16:43:26 evilmike: I think the monsters come along was too complicated 16:43:27 I'm not sure about the monster coming along... it has extreme bug potential and will likely have strange behavior even if it isn't bugged 16:43:31 it's not a hassle mostly, just i want to go through all of the posts in greader, from my phone, but each post only has a paragraph then links out to the browser so i can read the rest. that makes sense with sites that try to make money from blogs 16:43:33 galehar: it was a big problem yeah 16:43:35 not so much on this one. :P 16:43:40 (for instance, what happens if you blink into the middle of some monsters?) 16:43:43 shmup: do you know this service? http://fulltextrssfeed.com/ 16:43:51 and there was abuses with teleporting the constrictor so you can come along 16:43:56 also another suggestion: lugonu's bend space should have 100% success in escaping constriction 16:43:59 since it's more than just a blink 16:44:11 <|amethyst> that was the case in the last implementation 16:44:17 ChrisOelmueller: let me try this out :P still it might be a good idea to change that in the template or whereve 16:44:24 but this is fine if that never happens (after i test) 16:44:28 evilmike: yeah, that's sound ok 16:44:29 yeah, just hoping it's kept for whatever new version is implemented 16:44:30 <|amethyst> the bend space thing I mean 16:44:34 <|amethyst> yeah 16:45:01 I think teleport should still work. You're already taking a lot of damage while you wait for it to kick 16:45:15 yes, teleporting away from constriction is fine IMO 16:45:32 I like elliptic's idea of having blink counts has 2 escapes. 16:46:03 what about (semi)controlled blinks? Treat them the same as uncontrolled blinks re: escape attempts? 16:46:09 evilmike: IMO yes 16:46:21 same here 16:46:24 seems like the best way to do it. no extra rules to memorize 16:46:34 yes, i see what you mean 16:46:41 you still have to pull away from the monster, and having a controlled destination doesn't seem like it should help with that 16:46:43 btw, all of the tloc troubles stem from the fact that spells are so cheap -- if blink/teleport came with a higher cost (e.g. consumables only) there'd be no issue at all 16:47:00 where is the "read more", shmup? is it at the same position where it's on the blog itself? 16:47:09 -!- Ragdoll has quit [Quit: Ragdoll] 16:47:46 dpeg: you mean like collect reagents to be able to cast spells? ;) 16:48:13 dpeg: maybe, but for most things uncontrolled blink isn't great... it's just weird stuff like constriction and nets/webs, when it is a 100% thing 16:48:15 galehar: I feel that Crawl gives away too many things for free... but I have a more detached POV now, of course. 16:48:34 for webs, how about allowing the blink but taking the web along with you 16:48:41 would that have any potential bugs? 16:48:57 <|amethyst> evilmike: what if the square you blink to already has a trap? 16:48:58 evilmike: that sounds like it could have trouble if you blink onto a trap 16:48:59 evilmike: was discussed back then, I liked it. Should work the same for nets. 16:49:26 <|amethyst> you could leave the player webbed and not move the trap 16:49:36 |amethyst: but the trap is just the web! 16:49:46 <|amethyst> that is now treated as "in a web" rather than "buggily held" 16:49:58 <|amethyst> elliptic: perhaps some but not all of it stuck to you? 16:50:01 I guess 16:50:17 <|amethyst> or even get rid of the trap 16:50:33 <|amethyst> you ripped the web apart by blinking, but it's still stuck to you 16:50:41 maybe getting rid of the trap would be okay, yes 16:50:58 In Brogue, teleport is scroll only; blinking is a staff which means it is reusable but staves regenerate slowly (like our rods), making it less prevalent than the Crawl spell/ability. 16:51:43 elliptic: about the to_hit constriction, how about treating it like a normal attack instead of all the complexity with size, HD and str? 16:51:48 its also a controlled blink, though (requiring line of fire) 16:52:10 crawl's blink spell has a pretty limited range, and if you make it semicontrolled it has a (tiny) glow cost 16:52:14 galehar: could try that, yeah 16:52:50 evilmike: yeah, crawl's uncontrolled blink is the weakest "blink" effect I've seen in a roguelike 16:53:07 So if I were to design a roguelike from scratch, I'd be very careful about what becomes reusable (ie. spell) and what not. Stuff like digging for example shouldn't be, imo. 16:53:13 low range, often doesn't even take you out of melee range of an adjacent monster 16:54:47 galehar: i am 100% in favor of treating constriction hits like normal ones. nothing else makes any sense 16:54:58 dpeg: what about just having everything be a consumable? You bring up brogue's method as an alternative, but it's a pretty important distinction that brogue has no spellcasting whatsoever. 16:55:00 it just introduces a new formula for no reason, which is inconsistent with the existing combat model 16:55:39 (for example: not being affected by halo/umbra or +/- acc items) 16:55:49 evilmike: everything a consumable would work fine. Brogue spells (i.e. rod style) do also work, though. 16:56:12 elliptic: tome4 actually has weaker :) because it scales with power much moreso than crawl, and you can get really low power ones, so they move you e.g. 1-3 tiles 16:56:19 but of course, nobody uses them because they're so awful 16:56:47 how is tome4 balance these days? Last time I tried it (a few months ago) it was all over the place 16:56:55 Napkin: sorry didn't see your responses: 16:56:56 http://i.imgur.com/0EaO6.png 16:56:57 evilmike: still all over the place 16:57:05 http://i.imgur.com/BcpFE.png 16:57:06 it's getting better, but it's so bad 16:57:27 Napkin: doesn't actually say 'read more' but, you get the idea 16:57:34 they definitely don't test stuff as thoroughly as dcss does before adding it to the game 16:57:50 they regularly issue releases with gamebreaking bugs or huge balance issues 16:58:11 from what I can tell, it seems like tome4 just doesn't do stable releases like crawl does? 16:58:40 All the downloads are "Beta ##" 16:58:43 yeah, they're all classified as 'beta'. which is a copout imo 16:59:04 because some of the releases are clearly all bug/balance fixes 16:59:32 they would be better off having alternating unstable/stable(beta) builds 16:59:41 (this is what they have, more or less, they just don't call them that) 17:00:12 Eronarn: but is someone planning for a big balancing purge? 17:03:00 -!- HangedMan has joined ##crawl-dev 17:04:06 dpeg: in tome4? no 17:04:15 not as far as i am aware of, anyways (i stopped reading the forums) 17:04:47 Eronarn: not good... I don't think you can get very far by madly adding features... shouldn't this be another lesson we all learned from NH? 17:05:01 in fact, their lead dev pretty much admits to playing favorites with balance (the character he plays, he wrote into the plot, and made its class the strongest class) 17:05:22 What's this? 17:05:24 it is a good game, but it lacks the Hand of dpeg 17:05:37 A dev who cannot seperate between designer and player personalities?? 17:05:54 well, tome has always been his pet project as far as I can remember 17:06:11 dpeg: fwiw, they do get a lot of mileage out of just adding stuff... but that is because most stuff that is added, you can't use all in one playthrough 17:06:28 classes define most of your character, and there's the unlock classes, too 17:06:30 Eronarn: yes, that takes away the "madly" 17:06:45 I wasn't even aware there was more than one dev, I thought the game was all darkgod's work 17:06:55 i think the other contributors submit balance changes here and there but yeah, last build i played had some crazy bugs and messed up balance 17:07:06 evilmike: people generally do discrete features, and he helps them out with guidelines for style to make it fit in the world 17:08:00 like most of the new classes are written by other people 17:08:00 ah 17:08:00 btw, we should definitely steal some of tome's time travel stuff 17:08:00 stealing is good 17:08:00 it's very scummy in tome, because of the quests, but even so they've fixed most of the balance problems 17:08:12 but i'm really impressed with how fun the abilities are to use 17:08:16 That stuff is really cool, yeah 17:08:44 evilmike, Eronarn: come up with a miniature proposal for how it could work in Crawl then. 17:09:01 dpeg: i think it'd work best as a chei power, thematically, but he'd have to lose some stuff 17:09:10 eronarn knows more about it than I do. Last time I played, it was extremely overpowered (although entertaining) 17:09:30 it's gone through a few iterations 17:09:35 one cool one is a temporal scouting ability 17:09:45 that one was about to be my example of a terrible one :P 17:09:47 well, it's cool 17:09:56 but bad because it's a divination spell 17:09:58 you use it, and travel into the future. originally, if you died during it, you die irl 17:10:42 roguelike horror movie 17:12:19 step from time is already a boring sort of time travel ability. 17:12:45 I've only used it a few times to actual good effect, although I've been told it's not all that bad. Moslty I just notice it is good at making crawl lag 17:13:11 or crash 17:13:20 It wont crash if you wait long enough 17:14:02 btw, completely different tangent -- I've recently sent wpnnoise.txt to someone: what is the general assessment on Singing Sword these days? Usable? Lackluster? Powerful? 17:14:11 was thinking of the old crash when a monster reaching hit somebody supposedly stepped from time 17:14:48 tension is rather wonky and unreliable: at xl 27 it didn't even start during a ziggurat run with 3 orbs of fire or four pan lords 17:15:01 I also heard from several people that finding an early Singing Sword intrigued them a lot when they started out... just saying 17:17:42 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 17:19:34 they recently-ish changed it so that rather than dying, you just time travel back to the start 17:19:50 but t make it not-divinations, if you end the 'scouting' - i.e., lose your lifeline - you get buffs 17:19:56 this works much, much better 17:20:27 dpeg: singing sword is good except for a) being too damaging b) tension being weird 17:20:48 i think it'd work better if it only 'sang' as you swung it, and in a cone in the direction of your attack, except for the highest tension values 17:20:51 Eronarn: not too bad... better than the old version 17:21:01 right now you have a big incentive to kite stuff (lava orcs had this same problem) 17:21:28 tension formula fixes would help a lot - i have ideas for this, but it needs to be done in a way that lets me collect data 17:21:53 yes 17:22:09 lava orcs branch has a few tension changes already, btw 17:22:19 the most important one: change tension multiplier for low HP dramatically 17:22:24 this kind of kiting can be dangerous in itself, of course 17:22:59 i'd also like to implement tension smoothing, like how i implemented temperature smoothing, so you don't get huge swings from turn to turn 17:23:17 both are easy changes that would make tension work VERY differently, and i liked how the new tension worked, but i am only one player 17:23:44 dpeg: not really... you don't need to be adjacent, so you can just walk down a hallway and as long as you have monsters in sight the sword will shout 17:24:17 (and its shouts kill chaff fast, but those don't cintribute to tension much, leaving the battlefield less chaotic and therefore safer) 17:26:27 note that this is mostly a problem early on, if you get that one vault with the early singing sword you will totally wreck stuff for quite a while 17:26:47 i'd rather see it be more consitently powerful 17:26:53 and encourage melee over kiting 17:28:37 it can surely be improved... but in any case we're better off with a version that's strong & strange & in use, compared to the +7 long sword newbie trap of before. 17:28:45 yes, for sure 17:29:15 btw, i had an idea for pact god last night when i couldn't sleep - make the offers very tension based, and come with a quickening (Highlander!) 17:29:46 blabber: if execinfo worked, you should have gotten a backtrace there 17:30:04 so you get offered a new pact in an emergency, and it'll be a permanent cost for both a permanent effect and a powerful short-term boost 17:30:26 gotta go for a bit 17:30:32 Eronarn: interesting idea 17:33:23 evilmike: that "you come along for the ride" constriction+tloc stuff had a number of problems other than just code: what to do with water? what to do with teleport restrictions (Abyss)? interface troubles (would need a way to refuse to constrict enemies, something that's not needed currently) 17:34:38 yeah. It would be better not to deal with that 17:34:58 evilmike: so I'd go with elliptic's ideas of having a blink count as two escape attempts, separating the sides when it works (assuming galehar's damage rewrite idea goes in), and having teleport work as currently 17:35:00 constricting and air-drowning fish sounds wonderful and perfectly balanced because who cares about most waterlife anyway 17:36:04 blink/teleport already work differently: the former is stopped by glass/statues/grates and of course rock, while the latter doesn't care about a whole level of permarock 17:36:25 kilobyte: all of this is true but does not speak against constriction blocking tloc (or just teleport) 17:36:53 kilobyte: you're right, the more I deep into constriction's implementation, the more I want to rewrite it all... 17:38:57 so, on top of a sane implementation, I'm going for: damage increase over time with smooth stepdown, simple to_hit (like a normal attack), and blink counts as 2 escape attempts 17:39:10 dpeg: 1. current damage formulas means you HAVE to blink against a tentacled monstrosity unless you can dispatch it in 1-2 turns (maybe 4ish if you can afford losing most of your hp), 2. any group of constrictors (like in Snake) means constant -TELE and no means of escape unless you fight in a corridor 17:40:21 I am not saying that Snake monsters can stay the same if the branch becomes mostly -TELE... I think it becomes more interesting, though. 17:40:57 also, I'll make the damage use the constriction's attack damage instead of monster's HD 17:41:03 galehar: why not be consistent with other attacks for damage as well, as we talked about yesterday? Ie, using the damage field of an attack instead of a weird HD/size/duration formula. 17:41:31 adjusting the numbers to be a no-op first, but allowing us to tweak monsters' constriction more easily 17:42:41 size as currently no effect on damage 17:42:51 galehar: that was intentional 17:42:56 it has on to_hit (I'm removing) and on escape (keeping) 17:43:09 current numbers are thoroughly mad anyway, no need to preserve them. For example, ball pythons do nothing unless you're unspoiled and fight actual threats then the duration starts you suddenly getting mad damage. 17:43:22 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:44:24 kilobyte: I suggested removing the effect of duration earlier, but it wasn't so well received. It does need adjusting, though 17:46:06 what I don't like is that the duration effect is a straight +duration, unrelated to the base damage 17:46:41 galehar: there will be the issue that weapon type has an effect of a naga monster's constriction damage 17:47:05 dpeg: what? how? 17:47:21 galehar: as I see, sorry 17:47:43 I'm talking about the base damage of the constriction, not the weapon 17:47:49 currently 2d(str/5) 17:47:52 -!- syllogism- has quit [] 17:47:57 for the player 17:49:37 regarding the spoileriness of how constriction damage increases over time, we can use punctuation like we do for normal attacks 17:50:01 it already does use !s 17:50:50 oh good 17:51:14 not the most noticable meter, though 17:51:45 an additional (half) sentence would help, about how you're getting strangled more strongly 17:51:46 yeah, this could be improved 17:53:15 You are squeezed like a stress toy in an anxiety attack! 17:54:44 Your eyeballs start to bulge from your head 17:54:44 <|amethyst> even just adding "more tightly" 17:54:50 Your blood vessels burst! 17:55:20 these messages sound like the damage against mummies should be 0 17:55:28 (as already proposed before) 17:56:15 kilobyte: but crushing also works on mummies 17:56:36 -!- Randombk has joined ##crawl-dev 17:56:44 "The toilet paper holding you up feels less reliable." 17:57:19 dpeg: not a single constrictor uses crushing to any extent, there are two mechanisms involved: 1. blocking lung action, 2. increasing blood pressure 17:57:30 interesting 17:57:45 we don't have to tell our mummies 17:58:06 -- or make them immune from constriction but that's probably less interesting game-wise 17:58:13 -!- Patashu has joined ##crawl-dev 17:58:24 presumably while that is something anacondas do, tentacled monstrosities do not care about the exact physics when they can just use more tenacles 17:58:46 Wikipedia has a single succint paragraph on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constriction, you can find more detailed details elsewhere 17:59:14 dpeg: yeah, I wouldn't make them immune or anything, perhaps at most reduce damage 17:59:35 Does the USE_GLSE option actually work? 18:00:12 even immobilisation itself could perhaps be interesting enough, but I wouldn't want to go there 18:01:02 Randombk: well well well... let me introduce you to a secret: all GLES porting was done by someone without the slightest clue about OpenGL in general, and it never worked 18:01:59 RL constrictors don't crush their prey because they are leaving. If they were to constrict an undead mummy, they would crush it to dust :) 18:02:01 Randombk: the farthest I got was everything seemingly work except for texture loads never succeeding 18:02:10 *living 18:02:59 Hmm... Is SDL even compatible with gles? 18:03:06 galehar: no RL constrictor has the strength to break bone -- and if it did, it wouldn't need to do any constricting 18:03:55 galehar: pressing longer doesn't help, you can either break it or not 18:04:55 Randombk: I tried to do the porting on N900, it has some libraries that make SDL1.2 work with gles 18:07:25 Randombk: at the time, SDL1.3 was a big steaming pile of pre-alpha hacks that partially worked on a single architecture, I heard it has became thoroughly more sane since then 18:09:10 Alright. I've been trying to port to the playbook, and this is the last major hurdle... Would you think porting it to pure SDL would be abit easier...? 18:10:29 I wouldn't call porting to pure SDL "easy" unless the old code can be whipped back into shape (which could potentially be easy, yeah) 18:10:37 it'd be great for other ports, though 18:11:05 openGL tiles fail to work on a crapload of systems due to driver problems 18:12:54 Alright. That's what I'll try, then 18:15:11 03kilobyte * rcaf2ce908192 10/crawl-ref/INSTALL.txt: Document that on Debian you need to include libpng-dev explicitely now. 18:15:13 -!- blabber has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:15:19 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 18:15:54 galehar: can we disable mimics on D:1? 18:16:34 sure we can. 18:17:03 do you mean temporarily until I balance them better, or definitely? 18:17:06 -!- Randombk has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:17:35 "The dungeon was actually a mimic!" 18:23:49 1 pip of resistance across most resistances on d:1 is pretty mean for the backgrounds that care 18:27:16 "Warning: call_user_func_array() expects parameter 1 to be a valid callback, " 18:27:32 http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/ seems to be screwed up 18:28:59 would be better to have mimics start at some given depth, like any other monster 18:30:23 scaling with an extreme range may work mechanically, but it's thoroughly against how monsters work elsewhere 18:31:33 I'd drop scaling altogether and have multiple tiers of mimics 18:31:44 they're also not a very interesting surprise when they show up constantly, everywhere through the game 18:31:52 that too 18:31:56 galehar: definitely they shouldn't appear on D:1, probably not D:2 either... starting at D:3 sounds okay to me though 18:32:03 kitem: O = abyssal rune of zot ravenous_mimic 18:32:21 I'd like to have D:2 mimics to have some fun with altar mimics. An early game tier without resists would be good though 18:32:23 03galehar * rb83e3f0ef986 10/crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: Disable D:1 mimics. 18:34:11 kilobyte: I think 2 tiers could work. From D:2 to ~D:9, no resists, 1 normal attack and a hold attack (or weak constriction) 18:34:31 later, 1 normal, 1 poisonous, and 1 hold or constrict 18:35:23 kilobyte: they can both scale and have tiers, it's fine if deeper mimics are harder than less deep ones... the new ability is the real problem 18:35:24 there could still be *some* stat scaling withing each tier. Not as drastic as the current one, but it seems hard to make a monster relevant from D:10 to Zot:5 18:35:59 -!- edlothiol has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:36:08 as for early mimics: if we want to use them early, there's vaults 18:36:12 relevant in not actually being that staircase you wanted 18:36:15 scale them from D1 on, but don't actually place them 18:36:19 galehar: a mimic that's strong on D:2 would be popcorn on D:9 18:36:41 and scaling seems to be a really bad idea to me 18:37:08 when we do place monsters with a different HD, they're marked, like "malarious" mermaid 18:37:18 kilobyte: as for constriction... making it explicitly do asphyx damage would be good imo. stuff without lungs can be constricted, but won't be hurt 18:37:38 Eronarn, except that there's blunt damage being done too 18:37:42 jellies being constricted at all 18:37:49 "You wrap around the X" vs. "You squeeze the air out of the X" 18:37:57 jellies resist constriction i think 18:38:07 Mottie: as kilobyte went over, RL constriction doesn't care about that 18:38:14 HangedMan: can't, they're totally immune 18:38:22 maybe rasphyx could reduce constrict damage by 2 18:38:23 it'd make more sense to restrict constriction against insubstantials 18:38:27 but you can melee insubstantials. 18:38:28 we could have some monsters which do additional damage - monstrosities - but snakes don't need to crush bone 18:38:29 oh right, I remember a commit involving monster genuses 18:38:32 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: gn8] 18:38:59 also porcupines 18:39:04 in fact, if we make constriction success based on HD - like normal attack success - and constriction damage based on the attack's flags... 18:39:11 and burning corpses 18:39:19 we could have (constrict)(crush) actually be maningful 18:39:22 fire vortexes? 18:39:30 but also stuff like (constrict)(freeze) 18:39:30 vortexes in general 18:39:34 HangedMan: insubstantial 18:39:37 oh 18:39:47 I meant unbreathing => constriction damage divided by 2 18:39:50 (constrict)(freeze) already works for simulacra 18:40:03 cool 18:40:15 galehar: may as well just remove it altogether, unless the thing has (crush) 18:40:25 and give that only to super huge constrictors 18:40:46 ball python (03S) | Speed: 12 (swim: 60%) | HD: 1 | Health: 2-5 | AC/EV: 0/11 | Damage: 2, 303(constrict)(crush) | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(1), 12drown | XP: 1. 18:40:46 %??ball python 18:41:42 having 0 damage constriction be meaningful would be nice 18:41:43 Eronarn: too complicated. Nobody knows or care about damage type. 18:42:03 galehar: messages would convey it 18:42:17 also it'd only come up very rarely for players anyways 18:42:40 0 damage constriction will be "held" (for mimics?) 18:43:01 galehar: yeah, stickiness without permanent webbing 18:43:09 no damage, but can't move 18:53:25 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 18:54:25 03kilobyte * r64b8d9d5cae0 10/crawl-ref/docs/changelog.txt: Changelog for 0.10.2 18:54:25 03edlothiol 07stone_soup-0.10 * rd01fa8825237 10/crawl-ref/source/webserver/ws_handler.py: Fix Webtiles compatibility with tornado 2.2. 18:54:26 03kilobyte 07stone_soup-0.10 * re27cd06ac719 10/crawl-ref/source/main.cc: Do a checkpoint save on Abyss new area shifts. 18:54:27 03kilobyte 07stone_soup-0.10 * r4350822bfe2e 10/crawl-ref/source/item_use.cc: Don't name the number of tentacles equivalent to three hands. 18:54:27 03kilobyte 07stone_soup-0.10 * r6109213607b5 10/crawl-ref/source/food.cc: Fix chunks being better than permafood when nauseated (and starving). 18:54:28 03kilobyte 07stone_soup-0.10 * r8fe44db967c3 10/crawl-ref/INSTALL.txt: Document that on Debian you need to include libpng-dev explicitely now. 18:55:30 -!- Xiberia has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:00:24 are mimics too common? (items or features) 19:00:51 if I use stepdown for constriction damage, after how many turns should the damage be doubled? 19:01:01 will read answers tomorrow 19:01:10 they're less interesting the more common they are imo 19:01:13 * galehar sleeps 19:03:08 random mimic frequencies: items:1/500, features:1/100 19:03:18 galehar: bon nuit 19:07:30 -!- heteroy has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 3.6.28/20120306064154]] 19:35:31 -!- nrook has joined ##crawl-dev 19:37:59 galehar: yes, mimics are far too common (they were even before the d1 mimic thing); they are best used very sparingly 19:44:04 you have ~8 staircases and ~10 doors per level, a 3-runer has ~80 levels 19:44:20 is there any way in crawl to test which monsters show up on a level in which probabilities? 19:44:50 more than 8 staircases per level on average I think... hatches are pretty ridiculous 19:45:06 nrook: ./crawl -script place-population Vault:1 Vault:8 -nomaps 19:45:14 I think with features it would be good to use a different probability for different types 19:45:31 ha, that's good 19:45:34 i think it would be good to just use vaults :P 19:45:48 I was just about to try to implement one before thinking "wait, I should ask if this exists somewhere first" 19:45:54 also, we should look into banded mimics 19:45:59 like, doors and stairs are common and need lower than 1/100, fountains and portals probably do not 19:46:01 so if one comes aive they all do 19:46:34 it would make guardian naga mimic vaults Interesting 19:46:35 elliptic: statues in particular are something that could have a big chance 19:46:52 for theme 19:47:28 kilobyte: statues should come alive into golems or gargoyles, not mimics 19:47:30 <|amethyst> what about entry vaults? 19:47:52 mimics are a D&Dism... they actually even prefer to take on simple shapes, like doorways, because they aren't perfect shapeshifters 19:48:07 I am working on a rather fun abyssal rune mimic vault that sort of does a band 19:48:34 mostly because if you stack a whole bunch of mimics onto one square then if you step right beside it they start pushing each other out of the way and surround the player 19:48:59 HangedMan: i like the idea of a vault that's a bunch of fountains surrounding a rare item, in a room with several doors, and if you pick up the item the entire room becomes mimics 19:49:38 also that sounds hilarious but also broken 19:50:18 of course actual mimic bands would take lua and would be spoiler-tastic: as much as I love trap vaults it is kind of bad to have them be around in so many ways 19:50:35 just have them be really rare variants of non-trap vaults 19:50:48 that is exactly how mimics should be used 19:50:54 there are really mean autoexplore trap vaults that come to mind 19:51:27 imo we should really change autoexplore x vaults such that there's two or three tiers of autoexplore-stop 19:51:51 stop at all obvious vaults, stop at interesting obvious vaults, etc. 19:52:19 several days ago, message-giving doors 19:52:27 !vault hibernation 19:52:31 Lines pasted to http://paste.scsys.co.uk/193665 19:52:55 Eronarn: you could literally have the entire room become mimics, walls and all... 19:53:08 wall mimics are disallowed though 19:53:08 floor mimics 19:53:15 oh, are there ... yeah that's what i thought 19:53:24 secret door mimics can become floor mimics somehow 19:53:37 floor mimics should leave shafts behind them 19:53:41 I should try to report that once I figure out how the hell it happens 19:53:43 you can create wall mimics in wizard mode, they're just not allowed in-game 19:53:52 oh, i see 19:54:00 wall mimics would be hilarious and also lethal 19:54:17 clearly we should have underworms instead 19:54:25 slimy wall mimics are pretty funny. they burn you before they wake up 19:54:34 unfortunately, they lose their acid powers once they are awake 19:54:57 someone needs to get on coding acid wall sell for alchemists 19:54:59 (not it) 19:55:28 you can buy acid walls from slime shops, because the custom shops weren't silly in theme enough 19:55:40 what 19:56:59 "acid wall sell" 19:57:10 i am on a bus 19:57:17 what does the game do with the walls once you've bought them? 19:57:37 perhaps you should be able to set up a house in the dungeon, and acidifying it would help protect it from invaders, or something 19:57:38 soeone should go code the custom shops that i posted on wiki 19:57:42 there are some good ones!! 19:57:48 but I guess you'd mostly be scared of jellies, and they wouldn't care about acid walls 19:58:01 there are even some simple ones, amazingly enough 19:58:15 I mostly dislike the snake themed custom shop because it'd place d:8 place:Snake:1 monsters 19:58:56 actually come to think of it it'd be kind of cool if bazaars were way more likely to get themed shops 19:59:29 yay D:8 anacondas and naga mages 19:59:43 everybody loves d:8 anacondas 19:59:45 oh, that needs to be fixed 20:00:09 Eronarn: just make a new Bazaar map 20:01:16 kilobyte: i don't actually know how to make maps :( i've only done coding, never vaults 20:01:31 it'd be pretty easy to make most of these shops, but it'd trip over item prices not being easily set 20:01:35 i probably need some kind of sacrificial knife right. what color of goat 20:01:45 "A shop with only scrolls of acquirement! Very expensively priced, naturally - has to be higher than the EV of gold acquirement." for example just won't work 20:02:13 Eronarn: sac an ETC_FIRE one 20:02:22 HangedMan: i thought you could set the greediness of the shop or something? 20:02:34 I'll look at the custom shop ideas later, although I'm not going to have much time to do anything until next weekend 20:02:48 obviously, will ignore shit ideas like "it only has acquirement scrolls" 20:02:59 I think guppyfry already made some of these 20:03:10 evilmike: hey, that's a good idea :( 20:03:17 if it can be made to work anyways 20:03:22 Eronarn: I could see it working in a bazaar 20:03:37 oh, greed can be set 20:04:03 sure, it definitely is the least generally suitable of them 20:04:04 new variable set to learn with little things to connect to it, ew 20:04:17 i think i like the dragonslayer one the most 20:04:21 or maybe the agumentation station 20:04:21 HangedMan: what 20:04:26 03evilmike * re65fe5e4fb3b 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/builder/shops.des: Nerf guppyfry_shop_venom. 20:04:32 the greed variable 20:04:38 can you just read what you type or something 20:04:48 if someone adds augmentation station without using that name i will be mad 20:05:06 That's a good shop name 20:05:36 crawl needs as much wordplay as possible except screw whoever wanted to add bipolar bears because really now 20:11:30 !vault web 20:11:31 Lines pasted to http://paste.scsys.co.uk/193667 20:12:51 s|ITEM: any jewellery|KITEM: d = any jewellery| 20:20:24 Eronarn: no wordplay except for flavour text, please 20:20:40 ESPECIALLY not in monster names 20:21:33 "bipolar bear" makes sense only in English, and even there it's arguable 20:21:52 how is orb spider being translated? 20:22:00 going to be 20:22:03 exactly 20:22:21 not the slightest idea how to translate that 20:22:57 it seems like there's a clear answer to that dilemma: name Orb of Destruction in other languages so as to to amenable to spider puns 20:23:30 ... 20:23:55 (this is a joke) 20:24:13 it's okay if not everything translates 20:24:29 an interesting monster name in one language is better than an interesting monster name in zero languages 20:24:38 Eronarn: except that you can't leave a monster untranslated 20:24:46 kilobyte: i mean 'translates well' there 20:25:07 Eronarn: uhm wrong... there's a crapload of interesting stuff you can do without puns 20:25:24 I'd even question whether puns are interesting at all 20:25:25 kilobyte: thank you for the updated version in Debian. 20:26:25 kilobyte: puns are great when they are well executed, and we shouldn't avoid using them just because of translation; likewise, translations should take liberties if something can be expressed a better way in another language 20:26:33 shirish: that's thanks to Guus Sliepen, and the blame for not announcing 0.10.1 goes to me 20:26:49 (maybe there is a language where 'deep dwarves unborn' doesn't exist) 20:26:54 Eronarn: ie, messages and flavour text 20:27:11 kilobyte: either way it's good :) 20:27:21 well it doesn't exist in english 20:27:32 MarvinPA: exactly :p 20:27:36 kilobyte: i don't see the harm in having 'orb spider' in one language and, i don't know, 'splosion spider' in another 20:28:08 discussing them across languages will be done by calling them those spiders that shoot orbs 20:28:24 those purple "s"s 20:28:30 originally it was going to be called an "orb weaver", which was way more punny 20:28:33 HangedMan: people already do that so 20:28:41 now it can be read as a pun, but it can also just be read as "spider that shoots orbs" 20:28:48 evilmike: should be done imo 20:29:05 we're already just using 'tarantella' and 'jumping spider' 20:29:31 tarantella isn't a specific pun, though 20:29:40 the jumping spider is actually supposed to be non magical, although its jumps are just blinks without translocation clouds 20:29:51 HangedMan: i ean the not having a conflict with it being a real life critter name 20:29:56 Eronarn: for example, Polish has a good word that's both a synonym for "cob" and a colloquial word for "skull". Just see how much fun we're missing because of caring for English :p 20:30:01 HangedMan: the dance, and it sounds similar to "tarantula"? 20:30:18 oh, it is 20:30:21 merde 20:30:34 I think of them as dancing tarantulas 20:31:04 they should get a tile that isn't a recolour of the redback, that dances 20:31:12 kilobyte: you should totally feel free to name death cobs that in the polish translation :) isn't it better if the authors of every language of crawl get to add their own touches to it? 20:31:40 woosleyisms 20:32:00 woolseyism, can't spell anything ever 20:32:12 specific puns may not translate but the idea that good wordplay can add to the game certainly does 20:32:18 but yeah it seems inevitable that not everything will translate well, no point passing up awesome names (hellephant!) just because of that 20:32:26 hellephant <3 20:32:30 -!- vadatajs has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:32:57 (also, to say nothing of the iron giant...) 20:33:47 or worse - 'chuck' 20:33:50 hellephant has a good fallback: "hell elephant", no issues there 20:34:09 Eronarn: what's the pun in "iron giant"? 20:34:16 kilobyte: it's a cultural reference 20:34:19 movie reference, right? 20:34:34 yes 20:35:01 sprint whimsy does not form the strongest of arguments 20:35:07 kilobyte: hey, important: if we're going to keep pizza in crawl, we need to include that in the translation patch 20:35:28 different countries have different pizza types! 20:35:35 (japan: shrimp and mayo, yum) 20:35:41 Eronarn: obviously 20:35:49 pandemonium pizza is eaten everywhere, though 20:36:01 hungry kobold (07K) | Speed: 10 | HD: 1 | Health: 2-5 | AC/EV: 2/12 | Damage: 4 | Flags: 07vault | Res: 06magic(1) | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 1. 20:36:01 <|amethyst> %??hungry kobold 20:36:07 could just evict that to the database outright 20:36:19 i actually kind of like the idea of having the pizza food item be renamed based on language, but sadly it'd be contentious 20:36:26 <|amethyst> kilobyte: there's a fixed version of monster-trunk in my repo 20:36:31 since some languages span multiple countries 20:36:51 unless we want to do countrycode and not just language 20:37:04 localization: hard work 20:37:05 <|amethyst> kilobyte: only branch bleeding-edge-crawl is affected (I goofed when doing the int -> monster_type conversion) 20:39:00 did we get a page for people's new version goals yet 20:45:00 -!- vadatajs has joined ##crawl-dev 20:45:21 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-1142-ge65fe5e 20:45:36 @??diamond obelisk 20:45:37 diamond obelisk (168) | Speed: 10 | HD: 8 | Health: 10000 | AC/EV: 12/1 | Damage: 20 | Flags: 11non-living, 07vault | Res: 13magic(immune), 05fire++, 02cold++, 10elec++, 03poison++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm, 12wind | XP: 15000. 20:46:15 can we just add an invuln flag for monsters like that 20:46:16 Eronarn: every country has pizza 20:46:55 -!- tischler has joined ##crawl-dev 20:47:28 common toppings differ 20:47:58 Eronarn: yeah, to make Ragdoll pass that 15k xp 20:48:06 yeah... i wonder what other stuff like that there is 20:48:16 snozzcumbers 20:48:20 i guess you need a name for potions of porridge for each language :) 20:48:32 (a reference to some obscure book) 20:48:40 the BFG, by Roald Dahl 20:48:42 not that obscure 20:48:49 also a play, I've seen it in a theatre 20:49:11 we could just drop snozzcumbers 20:49:14 ais523: BFG can mean only one thing, all other is a heresy! 20:49:37 or replace them with an actual obscure vegetable 20:49:54 chokohwait 20:50:09 cassava 20:50:45 taro, plantain, sunchoke... 20:50:58 replace them with other fictional vegetables, instead 20:51:59 HangedMan: as in, obeying the 300 years rule, right? I guess Pliny and friends described some plants too. 20:52:22 it occurs to me that if we already have one food that has an effect it'd be cute to add some more eventualy. spicy peppers! 20:52:41 -!- Pingas has joined ##crawl-dev 20:52:42 two 20:52:48 well two foods that have an effect i guess since we can't resist copying other RLs and 20:52:51 yes 20:52:58 anchovies pizza could give you guaranteed nausea 20:53:09 or, for more realism, sickness too 20:53:12 heh, +1 :P 20:53:23 i made anchovy pizza recently... it was pretty intense 20:53:30 i like fishy and even i found it too hard to eat moer than two slices 20:54:28 oh, we could do regional cheese flavors if we wanted :) 20:54:33 hakarl/surstromming pizza 20:55:17 i wonder how other languages will deal with bolt/beam/etc. 20:55:21 I ate black pudding pizza once. Or tried it, to be more exact. A big group of hungry students and that one was left unfinished. 20:55:36 english crawl already deals badly with bolt/beam 20:55:57 throw frost and throw flame description 20:56:23 going to sidestep the issue entirely by using rays 20:56:28 shrink ray, blink ray 20:56:29 rod of striking 20:56:46 (uses "force bolts" 20:56:49 of course this will get complicated when we add in stingrays 20:57:14 can we just remove rod of striking until someone cares to implement it in a non bad way 20:57:22 stingrays can just cast sting 20:57:25 HangedMan: had trouble translating this one, but ultimately realized there's an archaic word I can use 20:58:17 although that one in turn is too similar to a rare word for thunder 20:58:44 hah 20:58:54 now you can use both for lightning bolt! 20:59:16 -!- HangedMan is now known as greatorbofeyes 20:59:28 ah wait, wrong, I used that for smiting 20:59:33 would anyone be against changing the great orb of eyes name 20:59:59 hangedman would 21:00:00 the great is superfluous, there are no non-great ones and it's not particularly large afaik 21:00:16 Eronarn: Hasbro's lawyers, I think 21:00:26 (I quite like the name, but I have no good reasoning for keeping it) 21:00:35 (if you mean what I think you do) 21:01:47 -1 to "orb of eyes", we use "orb of X" for way too many things already 21:03:14 -!- Pingas_ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:04:58 well, "orb of" to me, in Crawl, implies something that has an LOS ranged attack, and has no other means of defending itself, and moves slowly 21:05:12 having consistent naming schemes helps players to memorize how monsters act 21:05:44 greatorbofeyes: a wand of striking that duplicates the "force bolt" spell exists in NetHack 21:05:58 although the flavour is not that the wand shoots bolts, but that it physically flies to its target and beats it up 21:06:32 ais523: orb of energy, orb of destruction, orb of Zot 21:06:55 oh, was thinking as monsters 21:07:06 right, orb of zot should also shoot things in LOS and move around slowly, would be more interesting that way 21:07:59 kilobyte: nah, ours aren't beholders- no antimagic eye! 21:08:02 -!- alefury has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 21:08:07 (yes, D&D nerds, i know there are beholders that don't bhave one) 21:08:19 the beholder is one of the few parts of D&D that isn't open source 21:08:24 D&D3.5, that is 21:08:51 -!- Pingas_ has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:08:59 nothing in D&D is open source 21:09:04 i dunno what i'd suggest, orb of eyes is bad yes 21:09:15 @??great orb of eyes 21:09:15 great orb of eyes (09G) | Speed: 10 | HD: 12 | Health: 50-84 | AC/EV: 10/3 | Damage: 20 | Flags: see invisible, lev, !sil | Res: 13magic(immune), 03poison | Chunks: 06mutagenic | XP: 1349 | Sp: paralyse, disintegrate (d44), slow, confuse, teleport other. 21:09:56 evil eye of orms-by-gore 21:10:25 why do they still have teleport other, anyways. why does anything 21:10:34 "evil eye", as in muslim superstitions 21:11:05 kilobyte: well, what i said is a mtg card name, just a joke :) evil eye would work if they were evil - which they very well could be if we wanted 21:11:15 Hey all! Any recommendations for finding good bugs to fix for a newbie contributor? Status == acknowledged? 21:11:25 there's jiyva to think of though 21:12:03 tischler: yes, or look at the implementables if you don't want to limit yourself ot bugs 21:12:07 i don't think acknowledged status is used very consistently/frequently 21:12:36 -!- Blade- has quit [Quit: Page closed] 21:12:56 i guess usually it's stuff that somebody took a look at once and then gave up on for whatever reason 21:13:08 Eronarn: Jiyva doesn't seem to have a problem with evilness (death oozes) 21:13:12 anything with it probably is a bug; lots of things without it are bugs 21:13:47 kilobyte: death oozes are evil because they're undead; it feels a bit strange to me to have non-undead non-sentient innately evil things, and intelligent evil things don't seem to be jiyvaish 21:14:02 though tbh i don't like death oozes being jiyvaites anyways 21:15:23 Eronarn: great orbs of eyes and giant orange brains are I_HIGH 21:15:29 oh, huh 21:15:34 iknew about GOBs but not orbs of eyes 21:15:34 How do I know if the things in mantis are "agreed upon" by you guys vs just entered and not agreed upon/random ideas? 21:15:55 @??giant orange brain 21:15:55 giant orange brain (04G) | Speed: 10 | HD: 10 | Health: 39-73 | AC/EV: 2/4 | Flags: evil, see invisible, lev, !sil | Res: 06magic(106), asphyx | Vul: 08holy | Chunks: 06mutagenic | XP: 789 | Sp: brain feed, cause fear, shadow creatures, confuse, blink, teleport self. 21:16:07 do these convert to jiyva right now? i can't say whether i've ever run across one 21:16:43 if so, what about making them both Xs rather than Gs? they feel very horror-y, particularly brains, and not oozy at all 21:16:53 anything under "category: implementable" is put there by a dev 21:17:11 (intelligent, and the orb of eyes has a *mouth* for crying out loud - totally not slimy) 21:17:17 @MarvinPA ok, cool 21:17:51 so if you're interested in making a patch for any of those you could add a note saying so, and with any questions on implementation details or whatever 21:19:12 -!- greatorbofeyes has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:19:37 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:21:26 oh well i guess i will ad those two to the list of monsters i want to look at :P 21:37:13 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 21:39:10 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 21:48:09 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 21:48:59 -!- jeanjacques has quit [] 22:08:31 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:16:06 -!- tischler has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:21:14 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 22:47:09 -!- tischler has joined ##crawl-dev 22:59:00 -!- ZChris13_ has joined ##crawl-dev 23:00:00 -!- ZChris13__ has joined ##crawl-dev 23:02:31 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:02:41 -!- ZChris13__ is now known as ZChris13 23:04:20 -!- ZChris13_ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:09:43 -!- tischler has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:11:02 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:22:02 -!- vadatajs has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:31:56 How do the lua_State functions in l_dgn.cc work? 23:33:08 Magic. 23:33:39 Sounds about right. 23:34:54 * dtsund trying to add a field to the .des syntax 23:35:13 -!- vadatajs has joined ##crawl-dev 23:51:24 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 23:56:45 -!- |amethyst has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:57:15 -!- |amethyst has joined ##crawl-dev