00:00:31 xnavy (L27 MiMo) ERROR in 'tileweb.cc' at line 204: Socket write error: No buffer space available (Zot:4) 00:04:09 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-276-g9103413 (32) 00:05:35 I just had a thought for a race, and would like input so I can do a formal writeup... how about a werebeast race? if you choose any god, you must choose as either a human or a beast with a few special mutations, and if you don't choose a god, you have the innate ability to transform between human and that selected beast. 00:07:56 if you also altered stats when switching (such that some skills have higher profiency, making sure to take that into account)... would make a very interesting playstyle needing above average str, well planned skills, and an assortment of equipment to 'role swap' away from a stash 00:10:46 troll regen, human size, carnivore appetite, vuln magic, resist poison, very high innate ac and ev, vuln+ silver weapons if possible 00:20:14 -!- cosh has joined ##crawl-dev 00:20:34 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-276-g9103413 00:23:54 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 00:24:56 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:25:50 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 00:55:42 -!- [1]cosh has joined ##crawl-dev 00:58:38 -!- cosh has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:58:38 -!- [1]cosh is now known as cosh 01:44:58 -!- SamB_ has joined ##crawl-dev 01:47:33 -!- SamB has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:50:08 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:06:20 -!- petete has joined ##crawl-dev 02:19:34 -!- petete has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:57:55 -!- MakMorn has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:03:34 -!- Ragdoll has joined ##crawl-dev 03:17:24 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 03:43:34 didn't the elec brand used to do a lot of noise when it triggers? 03:43:47 Alamach (L3 OpWz) ERROR in 'tileweb.cc' at line 204: Socket write error: Bad file descriptor (D:3) 03:44:25 galehar: it hasn't changed afaik 03:44:46 a small amount of noise when it triggers unless you hit something in water, which produces a lot of noise 03:46:21 I thought explosions of sparks always made a lot of noise, my bad. But the small noise boost is for each hit, not only when it triggers. 04:58:17 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 05:00:07 OSX builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-267-gc50d164 05:00:16 oh, cool, djinn wiki page 05:01:13 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 05:02:46 -!- MakMorn has joined ##crawl-dev 05:03:24 -!- MakMorn has quit [Client Quit] 05:03:51 -!- MakMorn has joined ##crawl-dev 05:05:58 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:38:05 -!- awl has joined ##crawl-dev 05:39:46 -!- awl is now known as syraine 05:55:04 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 06:22:02 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 06:23:18 -!- cosh has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:30:38 -!- Twinge has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:35:39 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 06:39:22 -!- mikee_ has quit [Quit: Try HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-] 06:40:40 -!- syraine has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:54:16 ctair (L1 TeAE) ERROR in 'tileweb.cc' at line 204: Socket write error: Bad file descriptor (D:1) 07:00:34 -!- Victor__ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:00:37 -!- cosh has joined ##crawl-dev 07:01:17 hi, who can i talk to about my webtiles game not starting? looks like the game won't load server-side 07:01:48 it really sucks cuz now i can't play at all 07:02:47 edlothiol and Napkin would be the people to talk with about webtiles issues I think, but edlothiol isn't here right now and I don't know whether Napkin is around 07:03:24 ok thx 07:20:33 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 07:22:45 isnt Napkin on vacation? 07:24:15 I think so, but he's stopped by here a couple times anyway 07:24:47 mm 07:25:36 it's kinda weird; isnt the game supposed to load the last saved state or so after a crash? instead of hanging 07:25:58 yes, usually crawl is fairly resilient to crashes 07:26:06 but I don't know what might be going wrong with webtiles 07:26:09 @whereis victor 07:26:10 No where information for victor. 07:26:19 @whereis Torious 07:26:19 Torious the Thaumaturge (L11 FeWz), a worshipper of Sif Muna, saved on Lair:2 on 2012-02-27 after 14902 turns. 07:26:32 !lm torious crash -log 07:26:33 3. Torious, XL27 DECj, T:186272 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/Torious/crash-Torious-20120123-010037.txt 07:26:52 so no crash registered for the FeWz then? 07:27:01 yes, did it actually appear to crash? 07:27:10 no i just assumed, cuz it wont load now 07:27:35 it keeps displaying the "Starting Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup a75c42d..." message 07:27:39 which normally only shows briefly 07:28:11 it's been like this since 10 hours ago, and on different computers, so must be server-side i guess 07:31:01 i cant even start a new game now :/ (altho i'd prefer continuing this one ofcourse) 07:34:43 Victor__: not much I can do, I'm afraid :/ if you want to really make sure it is a server-side problem, I'd suggest creating a new account and testing whether it seems to be working 07:35:12 ok i'll do that 07:35:25 Napkin should be around tomorrow if not before, I think 07:35:33 so you can't dive into the webtiles code for me? :D 07:36:58 it works for a new account 07:37:02 @whereis MegaTorious 07:37:03 MegaTorious the Magician (L1 DEWz) is currently on D:1 after 2 turns. 07:37:08 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 10.0.2/20120215223356]] 07:55:44 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:57:09 hey mu 07:57:13 :X 07:57:48 haha hey 07:59:06 are u playing for the tournament? 08:02:24 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 08:06:06 -!- cosh has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:12:15 -!- ais523 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:19:36 03kilobyte * r7559ce0810fa 10/crawl-ref/source/ (24 files): Record the cause of mutations. 08:21:27 -!- GrimmSweeper has quit [Disconnected by services] 08:21:27 -!- [1]GrimmSweeper has joined ##crawl-dev 08:21:28 -!- [1]GrimmSweeper is now known as GrimmSweeper 08:25:37 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 08:34:00 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:35:15 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 09:35:48 Canard (L12 TrCK) ASSERT(you.wizard && !you.did_escape_death()) in 'xom.cc' at line 3817 failed. (D:11) 09:52:14 -!- kek has joined ##crawl-dev 09:59:00 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:22:54 i wish gdr was more obvious 10:23:11 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:23:15 its one of those things i only learned about after playing for quite a long time 10:23:28 and then it took a while longer until i learned what it actually does 10:28:38 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:44:00 -!- kek has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:58:16 dissapearing tiles (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5363) by kuniqs 11:08:29 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 11:14:20 -!- alefury has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Iceape 2.0.11/20111108220737]] 11:15:47 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 11:27:04 Xenon (L6 DrTm) ERROR in 'tileweb.cc' at line 204: Socket write error: Bad file descriptor (D:5) 11:28:44 Artefact Armour identified on sight; not Ashenzari worshipper (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5364) by XuaXua 11:32:12 -!- Victor__ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:35:59 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 11:44:14 SolidSnake (L4 TeAE) ERROR in 'tileweb.cc' at line 204: Socket write error: Bad file descriptor (D:4) 11:55:16 03kilobyte * r23c24d6e8b13 10/crawl-ref/source/xom.cc: Seafood has no eyebrows. 11:55:41 nice commit message, kilobyte 12:30:32 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: reboot] 12:41:59 Gorice (L4 SEIE) ERROR in 'tileweb.cc' at line 204: Socket write error: No buffer space available (D:2) 12:54:19 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 13:08:54 greensnark: pinging because I just opened a pull request for dcss_scoring with various fixes 13:17:20 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:17:31 03dolorous * r34df0eff5c75 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-goditem.cc: Clean up divinations functions a bit more. 13:17:31 03dolorous * r71350e569ff8 10/crawl-ref/source/ (enum.h spl-goditem.cc stuff.cc xom.cc): Properly make "You detect nothing." a canned message. 13:17:32 03dolorous * r803329ac97ed 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-cast.cc: Add shim for Detect Secret Doors cast attempts. 13:17:32 03dolorous * r184aaf8f17f9 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-cast.cc: Fix outdated comment. 13:17:32 03dolorous * rd1e4f0bbf140 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-goditem.cc: Properly make all high-int monsters with spellcaster flags able to detect scrying. 13:17:33 03dolorous * r3d45f371ff11 10/crawl-ref/source/ (decks.cc spl-goditem.cc spl-goditem.h): Tweak cast_detect_secret_doors() into detect_secret_doors(). 13:17:33 03dolorous * ra43d331d0bf4 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-goditem.cc: Remove (possibly?) unneeded redraw_screen() from detect_secret_doors(). 13:18:51 in case anyone else is confused like I was, "scrying" in that commit message (and in a comment in the code) doesn't actually mean the ash ability 13:20:19 03dolorous * rd5d158e38a12 10/crawl-ref/source/decks.cc: Comment fix. 13:20:33 -!- MarvinPA__ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:20:59 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:21:00 -!- MarvinPA__ is now known as MarvinPA 13:24:06 -!- MarvinPA_ has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:35:34 -!- timruff has joined ##crawl-dev 13:35:44 hi 13:36:42 the translation i18n is to product in crawl 0.11 13:37:11 it is possible to participate in translation i18n ? 13:37:46 ??? 13:38:07 kilobyte: see above 13:38:36 <|amethyst> translation or i18n? 13:38:52 the i18n 13:38:57 <|amethyst> there needs to be a lot of i18n done before one can really think about doing translations :) 13:39:14 timruff: i dont think anyone knows what you mean with i18n 13:39:20 <|amethyst> internationalization 13:39:27 ohhh 13:39:56 well, isnt kilobyte planning that? he might at least know something about when he will have the format nailed down? 13:39:57 urxvt doesn't redraw cao/cdo games correctly - would this be a urxvt bug or a terminfo issue similar to the one i had a while back? 13:40:12 <|amethyst> timruff: there's some design stuff at https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:interface:translation 13:40:22 ok 13:40:33 sometime games look like this: http://i.imgur.com/3SS8U.png 13:42:06 <|amethyst> ogsus: but actually playing with urxvt works? 13:43:37 |amethyst: i haven't tried - i've never played online, but any game i watch will do that 13:44:20 it is strange 13:45:37 <|amethyst> ogsus: I'm not sure about the details of what differs between rxvt and xterm, but it's not unexpected 13:45:53 i'm on noobrobin right now - haven't had the issue yet, but it usually happens when the screen gets pretty busy 13:46:08 <|amethyst> when you watch a game, you are getting the same sequence of characters (including escape sequences) as the player 13:46:32 <|amethyst> which rxvt is going to interpret somewhat differently from xterm or putty 13:46:39 |amethyst: well, the funny thing is that most of the time it's ok 13:46:55 |amethyst: i think it's a redrawing issue, which would put the blame on rxvt 13:47:30 |amethyst: but maybe you're right - how would I fix a charset problem? 13:47:37 <|amethyst> not charset 13:47:40 <|amethyst> escape sequences 13:47:51 |amethyst: oh 13:48:21 <|amethyst> probably a rarely-used one given what you're saying 13:48:40 -!- jeanjacques has quit [] 13:49:32 <|amethyst> about all you can do is use a terminal emulator that behaves more like the one the player is using 13:50:09 ok 13:50:12 or rewrite the game's code so that you can create recordings that play back on both tty and tiles 13:50:12 <|amethyst> you could try screen maybe 13:50:19 it is posible to look the source crawl 0.11 13:50:51 <|amethyst> ??git 13:50:52 git[1/2]: Readonly: git clone git://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl.git Read/Write: git@gitorious.org:crawl/crawl.git Web interface: http://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl 13:51:03 thank 13:51:05 <|amethyst> it's branch "master" 13:51:10 here's another example: http://i.imgur.com/FvIDR.png 13:51:15 <|amethyst> again, none of the work has been done 13:51:40 if it were uncommon escape sequences, the map would be corrupted more than the status box, no? 13:51:45 <|amethyst> ogsus: that looks kind of similar to what happens when using a terminal smaller than the player's 13:52:22 |amethyst: yeah, i was thinking that too - i tried maximising my terminal, but that didn't work - also, i'm using 80x24 (or whatever it is), and elynae is too 13:52:45 and the status bars would be overflowing into the map, which is fine 13:53:32 ais523: yeah, i was thinking of that - unfortunately my C skills have degeneration 3 and rot 3 13:54:21 oh, I was referencing daniel_t's work doing that for NetHack 13:54:38 it'd be much more difficult for Crawl, which doesn't have a clean separation between engine and display code 13:54:53 i figured 13:59:43 what is the time between to release ? 14:00:16 did you resize after starting the game? 14:00:17 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 14:00:32 it looks like there are some regressions there :( 14:06:39 kilobyte: nope 14:07:07 kilobyte: i launch urxvt as floating (since i'm using xmonad) with a specified size 14:07:36 <|amethyst> ogsus: how long do you usually have to wait to see a problem? 14:08:21 |amethyst: sometimes it happens as soon as i join 14:08:34 -!- rejuxst has joined ##crawl-dev 14:08:49 apparently it's a problem with vanilla rxvt as well 14:08:53 <|amethyst> I'm watching Elynae's game in urxvt now and have not yet seen any corruption 14:09:13 |amethyst: :( 14:10:05 |amethyst: what version of urxvt are you using, and which distro? 14:10:18 -!- SamB__ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:10:22 <|amethyst> rxvt-unicode (urxvt) v9.12 - released: 2011-06-29 14:10:34 <|amethyst> in Debian (unstable but not recently updated) 14:11:15 <|amethyst> options: perl,xft,styles,combining,blink,iso14755,unicode3,encodings=eu+vn+jp+jp-ext+kr+zh+zh-ext,fade,transparent,tint,pixbuf,XIM,frills,selectionscrolling,wheel,slipwheel,smart-resize,cursorBlink,pointerBlank,scrollbars=plain+rxvt+NeXT+xterm 14:11:58 -!- SamB_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:12:09 i really don't know - i would suspect a urxvt problem if it didn't happen in rxvt as well, but seeing as how yours works and rxvt is borked for me... 14:13:34 <|amethyst> what's your locale? 14:13:57 <|amethyst> and your $TERM 14:14:19 <|amethyst> (en_US.UTF-8 and rxvt-unicode here) 14:15:14 |amethyst: en_US.UTF-8, $TERM=rxvt-unicode as well 14:15:56 <|amethyst> and urxvt version? 14:16:18 9.15 14:16:35 options: perl,xft,styles,combining,blink,iso14755,encodings=eu+vn+jp+jp-ext+kr+zh+zh-ext,fade,transparent,tint,pixbuf,XIM,frills,selectionscrolling,wheel,slipwheel,smart-resize,cursorBlink,pointerBlank,scrollbars=plain+rxvt+NeXT+xterm 14:21:39 |amethyst: will be right back - thanks for helping me out 14:36:33 -!- syllogism has quit [] 14:44:29 -!- kek has joined ##crawl-dev 14:51:27 -!- rejuxst has left ##crawl-dev 14:57:17 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 15:02:39 Nabend! 15:02:55 hey guys - I think 0.10 is using the most resources ever 15:03:15 or there are really just incredibly many people 15:03:33 i never had crawl lag my irssi session! 15:04:14 there are incredibly many people. 15:06:47 so, strictly no remarks on Slashdot then? :p 15:06:58 please don't! 15:07:02 :p 15:07:13 just looking at the webtiles lobby is pretty crazy 15:07:28 but seriously - last time there were also ~130 players 15:07:31 it may be good to look into some scalability... but certainly not during this tourney 15:07:34 and CDO didn't feel that laggy 15:08:04 crawl's wordpress, especially the screenshots, takes a lot of resources 15:08:09 for example the new Abyss is _extremely_ slow 15:08:09 everything else is harmless 15:08:17 how many are playing atm? 15:08:24 wordpress? 15:08:26 ... 15:08:53 well, 2 sides 15:09:24 the game itself, but looking at top, it looks like webtiles games take more resources than dgl games 15:09:36 not sure that's true 15:09:55 and then there is apache sometimes spawning up to 7-8 processes with lots of cpu usage 15:10:04 and i think that's the screenshots page 15:10:04 travel_delay defaults to -1 in DGL 15:10:13 but not on webtiles 15:10:20 (AFAIK) 15:10:22 -!- timruff has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:10:26 Napkin: Victor__ was here earlier complaining that he couldn't restore his webtiles save game (user Torious), any chance you can see what's wrong with it? 15:10:30 when playing webtiles an hour ago or so i didnt notice any input lag, but sometimes there were lagspikes 15:11:20 actually, isn't the config shared? If so, why everyone I tried to watch has travel_delay >0 then? 15:11:27 Charos (L5 DsWn) ERROR in 'tileweb.cc' at line 204: Socket write error: Bad file descriptor (D:3) 15:11:56 config is shared, i think 15:12:03 elliptic: root@crash:~> ll /srv/dgamelaunch/dgldir/inprogress/*/*torious* 15:12:03 ls: cannot access /srv/dgamelaunch/dgldir/inprogress/*/*torious*: No such file or directory 15:12:03 kilobyte: I don't think travel_delay = -1 is default nowadays, not sure why 15:12:09 I tried webtiles myself, with a config with travel_delay=-1, and refreshes are buggy 15:12:10 so, there is no more reason for that 15:13:55 -!- ctair has joined ##crawl-dev 15:16:52 btw, in webtiles with travel delay -1 sometimes unexplored is shown when it shouldnt be 15:22:07 alefury: to be exact, only a square 8 tiles in every direction (ie, 17x17) is refreshed 15:22:31 already reported, as #5356 15:29:33 ...travel_delay = -1 is not default on CAO because I screwed up, thanks for the accidental bug report :) 15:30:04 (can't speak for CDO, don't know if that was on purpose or not) 15:33:18 oh, are you enforcing that, rax? 15:34:32 kilobyte, |amethyst: i don't know what it was, but no issues now - i downgraded a few minor versions, found the same issues, upgraded again, and now i only see urxvt corruption very rarely 15:34:35 oh, the reason i was asking about terminfos (again) is because i can watch ttyrecs fine locally using either ipbt or termplay 15:37:34 -!- kek has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:43:35 Margery (L16 HECj) ERROR in 'tileweb.cc' at line 204: Socket write error: Bad file descriptor (Lair:1) 15:51:59 Napkin: I tend to set it to default, just because, I don't care if people turn it off 15:58:21 ogsus: both ipbt and termplay reinterpret all terminal codes, so them behaving differently is not a surprise 15:59:15 kilobyte: how does dgl's watching work? sends you all characters on the screen all the time? 15:59:47 also, how crawltv/termcast? because i've had the same problems with that as well 16:04:32 as far as I know, neither of them do any interpretation; they look for screen clears, on connect blast all data since the last clear and then send further codes as they come 16:04:52 which works only if the screen size is >= the size of whoever you're watching 16:05:19 (that's why people on ##crawl hate sizes other than 80x24) 16:06:04 i see 16:15:46 whats the record for spectators? webtiles zig had 40... 16:17:47 -!- kek has joined ##crawl-dev 16:18:22 Napkin: I can't restore my webtiles game either (not sure if it's the same bug torious had) 16:18:39 it's stuck at "Starting Dungeon Crawl..." 16:18:49 thats the one 16:29:14 nothing else? 16:29:17 just that? 16:29:39 doesn't it tell you git hash code? 16:29:54 yes it does 16:30:07 puh, difficult 16:30:20 no idea then, if you don't get any other message 16:30:36 Starting Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup a75c42d (WizMode)... 16:30:50 after a very long time, I'm back to the lobby 16:31:30 maybe it's related to the (Wizmode). Do I get that because I'm a dev? 16:31:34 that game is running 16:31:43 yes, but i get that too 16:32:33 yes, I saw the process. If I close the window (I just did), the process is gone, so it's not stuck. 16:32:49 want me to delete the save? 16:33:32 I'd rather not :/ 16:33:32 i mv'ed it away 16:33:35 try now? 16:34:22 hey, it's doing it again! 16:34:28 thought so 16:34:35 end it, i'll move the game back 16:34:41 cleared the browser cache too 16:35:04 savegame moved back 16:35:19 thanks 16:35:27 try a different browser? 16:36:03 I'm using chrome. Let's try firefox. 16:36:21 definitely let edlothiol know 16:36:46 !seen edlothiol 16:36:46 I last saw edlothiol at Sat Feb 25 23:28:46 2012 UTC (1d 23h 8m ago) quitting with message Ping timeout: 276 seconds. 16:37:43 ok 16:38:53 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 16:39:07 thanks :) 16:39:12 hey wensley! 16:39:17 how's it going? 16:39:57 03dolorous * r3173c5e96bf6 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-goditem.cc: Remove high-int spellcasters' sensing Detect Creatures. 16:45:57 Napkin: firefox 10.0.2 is giving the same problem :( 16:46:08 hmm... firewall problem? 16:46:24 wouldn't think so 16:47:21 it used to work fine. And there isn't any firewall specific configuration AKAIK 16:48:24 !tell edlothiol I can't play webtiles anymore. Tried switching from chrome to firefox didn't work. Napkin moved my savefile, same problem. Stuck at Starting Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup a75c42d (WizMode)... 16:48:24 galehar: OK, I'll let edlothiol know. 16:50:26 -!- kek has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:51:41 Napkin: hello! 16:51:47 it goes well 16:52:07 :) 16:52:16 hey, did you check player-status recently? 16:52:22 oh, did you update it? 16:52:30 some "watch" links are colored :-O 16:52:34 any idea why? 16:52:40 Napkin: yes! I fixed that in my most recent version 16:52:44 which was months ago :P 16:52:47 oh.. was I supposed to? 16:52:52 I pinged you about it at the time, but it must have gotten lost 16:52:59 damn, you should email me :) 16:53:04 it also fixes the problem with the sorting order resetting when the data refreshes 16:53:05 SacrificialToast (L15 NaSt) ERROR in 'tileweb.cc' at line 204: Socket write error: Bad file descriptor (D:15) 16:53:35 I mean, I *think* the link coloring problem is fixed, it occurs because of a confluence of your css files and mine 16:53:45 but it should be 16:54:36 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: gn8] 16:56:17 let's see :) 16:56:24 i hope it's a stable upgrade this time?! 16:57:11 yep 16:57:20 I mean, haven't looked at it in months 16:57:20 ah, figured it out 16:57:30 but I don't believe I left it in disarray 16:57:37 apparently, setting msg_min_height to 12 is bad 16:57:46 awesome, galehar 16:57:57 trying to play from ssh, I could actually see the error 16:58:36 I've been reading over what I can... does anyone know if there's a scriptable way to add 'edible corpses' to explore stops? 16:59:30 oh, so there was a error and it wasn't shown? please don't forget to tell edlothiol, galehar 16:59:36 that's valuable 16:59:39 !tell edlothiol I figured it out. I tried increasing the message area by setting msg_min_height. No error message, nothing, just stuck. 16:59:40 galehar: OK, I'll let edlothiol know. 17:00:17 -!- HangedMan has joined ##crawl-dev 17:01:11 weird. Even CDO doesn't like it when I change this option (even with huge terminal). 17:01:40 This bloody stuff has just moved to the top of my todo 17:01:52 \o/ 17:01:53 :) 17:03:11 hey, I have this idea which has been bugging me for a while. How about a dynamic layout? Instead of a more prompt, have the message area increase when there's a lot of spam. clear it with space, or just do anything else to have it go back to its default size. 17:04:12 could work across all interfaces (terminal, tiles and webtiles) 17:04:19 hmm, sounds interesting 17:07:11 I didn't know you couldn't resize the message area online. I messed with this code ages ago and only tested it locally. I guess nobody cares because they are stuck in 80x24 because of ttyrec or something I didn't do right. 17:07:30 i care a lot 17:07:56 especially, that in my big terminals the space was never properly used automatically 17:07:57 the thing is that mores are good for force_mores 17:08:26 big terminals should just be treated as 80x24 by default 17:08:50 HangedMan: yeah, I wouldn't change that. Warning message would force you to press space and message spam would resize the message area 17:08:57 m 17:09:14 rwbarton: then so many learndbs flaming hugeterm would have to be deleted :( 17:09:24 not much gained from seeing the display the way the player did when it makes one always have to re-size footv 17:09:39 rwbarton: ??? why? If you use a big terminal, you want one. If you want a small one for ttyrec, don't resize it. 17:09:58 ttyrec is a server facility, it's for the other users of the server. 17:10:00 what I just said 17:10:31 I don't mind that much if people want to actually make use of their larger terminal. but currently there are a bunch of hugeterms with no use and it's just silly 17:11:22 -!- Ragdoll has quit [Quit: Ragdoll] 17:11:25 I mean, when people ask for help on ##crawl or whatever and are using hugeterm they probably don't even realize there is an issue at all 17:11:28 hugeterms wouldn't be useless if the interface layout code were smarter. Which is what I'm planning. 17:11:41 sounds like a lot of unnecessary effort 17:11:59 by the way, it seems that webtiles ttyrecs are always 80x24... is this right? 17:12:09 don't know 17:12:44 one thing I half-jokingly suggested (but maybe it is actually possible) is to have the ttyrec the game writes out be different from what the player sees even in console mode 17:13:00 is it that hard to watch a hugeterm ttyrec? Do you just need a bigger terminal or the exact same size or is it just buggy? 17:13:27 it shows up as buggy intially until the screen is reset if you aren't the same size or larger as it 17:13:27 galehar: my terminal doesn't *get* that large without changing my font size 17:13:38 hahaha 17:13:44 bigger terminal would be fine, however my terminal doesn't offer an option to change the font size while it is running 17:13:55 and I have it at whatever font size fits 80x24 on my screen 17:14:28 so yes, it is that hard 17:14:48 anyway, my dynamic layout proposal would also help 80x24 users. Maybe them the most. Much less more prompt. 17:15:08 where does the space for messages come from 17:15:16 viewport 17:15:24 oh, pah 17:15:27 galehar: uh, this doesn't sound like it would help me at all 17:15:40 I don't think having viewport change size while playing is a good thing 17:16:40 would be configurable. msg_min_height is default, and the message area resize up to msg_max_height when the messages from a single turn don't fit in it. 17:16:41 Napkin: how goes the upgrade? 17:16:47 oh, sorry, done! 17:16:51 worked fine :) 17:17:27 galehar: you can't have less than 17 lines of view if you are going to fit everything in sight on the screen 17:17:44 that means that with 80x24 you can never have more than 7 lines of messages anyway 17:18:00 solution: squarelos 17:18:08 -!- Lomky has joined ##crawl-dev 17:18:18 thank you, Wensley :) 17:18:22 but viewport is reduced only temporarily. As soon as you press space or do anything, the message area goes back to its normal size. 17:18:30 napkin: Wensley said to ask you about unlocking my CDO account 17:18:37 I seem to have forgotten my pass 17:18:39 galehar: and the monsters the message is talking about are cut off? no 17:18:42 this just doesn't work 17:18:58 private message, lomky 17:19:11 -!- Lomky has left ##crawl-dev 17:19:28 hmm, so why are there actually only 6 lines of messages? 17:20:26 rwbarton: because there is 17 lines of viewport and 1 line for more. 17:20:30 galehar: it might help people using hugeterms, and thus be worthwhile... but I really can't see how it would do anything for 80x24 players 17:20:53 oh, that's what the small_more option is for I guess 17:21:02 Napkin: thanks for the upgrade :) out of curiosity, do you know if anyone ever actually *visits* that page? :P 17:21:07 elliptic: well, I trust your judgement there (I can't stand playing 80x24 so I can't really tell). 17:21:26 on i'll check, but a bit busy right now, Wensley 17:21:28 anyway, I was thinking of making it optionnal anyway 17:21:31 no prob :) 17:21:46 now that dpeg is gone, I'm going to add 27 new options each release. 17:22:07 ahem 17:22:28 * galehar ducks in a corner 17:23:36 I've never tried configuring crawl for hugeterm, is it true that you have to configure the sizes of the viewport/messages area/whatever else manually? certainly an option for "please use my hugeterm sensibly" would be an improvement, and probably not very difficult 17:23:59 -!- greatzebu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:24:30 I think I made three attempts to cut options during the years... with puny results. 17:24:52 how about an enemy with powerful ranged attacks whose effective range of fire is proportional to the hugeness of your term 17:24:56 I cut them down to one screen in Ace 17:25:01 but daniel_t when and added them back again 17:25:05 you could even implement this in lua potentially 17:25:07 perhaps I'll cut them down again 17:25:16 so it doesn't have to be an actual crawl option at all 17:25:28 rwbarton: yes it's true. The default options for hugeterm are terrible, there's just a lot of empty space everywhere. Used to be the same for tiles, I fixed that. It's when thinking about how the default layout should be that I thought about dynamic layout. 17:25:33 i think we cut a fair few that were mentioned on the wiki page about options pretty recently 17:25:42 there's definitely room to get rid of more though 17:25:53 tiles hugeterm is weird 17:26:04 galehar, you're responsible for the better tiles layout? a huge thank you for that 17:26:05 with the stupid misaligning thing that screws up arena 17:26:28 (tiles arena of course being fundamentally more informative then console arena toooooooo) 17:26:46 MarvinPA: cool! 17:27:28 Felyza: yes, you're welcome. Although the size of the message area should be bigger on high res (or dynamic) to avoid more prompt spam 17:28:23 This permabuff thread is getting quite unwieldy. 17:28:48 I fully agree... as a person with 1680x1050, it seems way too small, I feel sorry for those with higher... even more 'useless' display 17:31:07 I don't know if its been addressed (figured it happens often enough it was quickly) ... scrolling map (shift-x) is a bit buggy with the new webtiles... I frequently get extra 'seen' outside the dungeon walls (duplicates textures), perhaps related to the new resizing when entering/exiting 17:32:40 dpeg: yes, I don't expect much to come out of it. But since I've started it, I feel compelled to keep answering and explaining. I'll probably stop answering the recurring comments soon, though. 17:33:44 hehe, I know that feeling so well :) 17:33:58 dpeg: but if the change goes in, at least they won't say that they never heard about it ;) 17:35:08 yes! 17:35:45 I also recall all the opposition to your skills plan (some of them from developers, including me)... and you just kept going. Yay :) 17:40:18 well, the goal of the skill reform was to get rid of victory dancing. Nobody opposed to that. There may have been some disagrement about the way, but not about the goal. 17:41:04 I guess nobody opposes to more convenient buffing either. 17:41:23 Regarding buffs, it's not the same. It seems to me that many players want permabuffs, but good players and devs don't. 17:41:26 I'm rather ambivalent about changing spellcasting, though 17:41:48 buffs giving glow isn't exactly more convenient... 17:42:01 plenty of smooth skills to appreciate but not spellcastying because too much is balanced around it as is 17:42:21 I'm not really convinced that there is anything fundamental about buffs that needs to be changed 17:42:33 HangedMan: what change are you talking about? 17:43:51 elliptic: the problem I see is that players are encouraged to cast low level buffs for exploring. And tediously recast them, because they are almost free. 17:44:01 I think individual buffs could use some changes, but there are lots of different types of changes and I don't think we want to change everything in the same way 17:44:18 galehar: well, swiftness is no longer good for exploration 17:44:27 make repel missiles like swiftness and everything is fine 17:44:30 that was not a particularly complicated change 17:44:43 aside from the people who hate traps in general 17:44:51 repel missiles is the other particularly bad one, yes... just need to come up with a way of dealing with it 17:44:56 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 17:44:58 other buffs don't feel like a problem to me 17:45:20 maybe ozo's armour/stoneskin 17:45:28 ozo's melts a *lot* 17:46:12 ok, tackling spells individually is probably a better approach 17:46:32 galehar: "less hassle with buffs because you're casting them less often == more convenient", to me 17:47:10 flight give a stealth and carrying capacity bonus, plus you are immune to mechanical traps. All minor bonuses, but all are only relevant for exploring. 17:47:41 So a good player should keep it active while exploring. Which is tedious. 17:48:02 Remove the exploring bonuses or implement permacast? 17:48:17 possible things to be done with individual spells: glow, option to perma-cast, other penalties, make infeasible to keep up permanently (example: phase shift) 17:48:25 about rmsl: make it affect own missiles too 17:49:09 so permacast and glow are both good ideas but for different spells. 17:49:37 i think glow should be used sparingly 17:49:46 Let's give permacast to forms and flight 17:49:52 the best thing about glow is that its immediately obvious that its bad for you 17:50:01 What to do with rMsl and Phase Shift? 17:50:07 a lot of people might not notice the swiftness change 17:50:12 phase shift really isn't a problem 17:50:14 phase shift is already pretty okay 17:50:17 it is L5 and short duration 17:50:20 if it is, cap max duration even lower 17:51:12 some sort of permacast option for forms sounds fine, maybe for weapon brand spells also 17:51:18 not sure exactly what option is the best 17:51:29 I'm not so sure about permacast for flight though 17:51:41 yeah permacast for weapon brand seems ok too 17:51:43 in most situations where you want flight, you want it all the time 17:51:51 elliptic: why? 17:51:56 tengu gets permaflight, let's not give it to everyone 17:51:57 this does not automatically mean you should get it, of course. 17:52:06 I'd much rather put some penalty on flight 17:52:34 kill flight except via amulet, bring back levitation, change the levitation penalty 17:52:38 to slow movement 17:52:44 -!- kek has joined ##crawl-dev 17:52:47 (but allow picking up items and going down stairs) 17:52:49 replace it by levitation. Only way to fly is amulet or tengu. 17:53:18 or increase the cost. 17:54:20 one possibility for flight is to make it interfere with spellcasting, like spider form and blade hands do 17:54:24 how about simply making levitation also affect you with slow? so slower movement, slower actions. but no other penalties. 17:54:40 since you have to concentrate on actually flying 17:54:56 I think merging flight and levitation might be a good idea regardless though 17:55:10 the SP penalty for spider form is a new thing, right? 17:55:11 alefury: slow is a really huge penalty 17:55:17 galehar: no, it is ancient 17:55:22 ancient and good 17:55:31 small? 17:55:33 possibly ice form should have it also, by the way 17:55:39 yes, but being able to fly is very good in the places where you want it 17:55:42 it is fairly small, but noticeable 17:55:50 and it would actually make the amulet meaningful 17:56:12 alefury: I think slower movement would be enough by itself 17:56:37 levitation is used quite a bit to avoid combat penalties from shallow water 17:56:44 or rather, flight is 17:56:48 im not sure that is a good thing 17:56:55 If we're doing anything with flight, we must also decide what to do with the amulet? Make it relevant or remove it? 17:57:04 remove IMO 17:57:34 i think with perma-castable levitation it would already be relevant 17:58:05 If we make the difference between levitation and flight meaningfull instead of tedious as it is, then we're also making the amulet relevant. 17:58:32 i actually used the amulet in shoals once or twice, when i had boots of lev 17:59:05 elliptic, you mentionned slower movement. What if levitation gives slow movement and flight not? 17:59:22 perma-castable levitation, flight only with amulet or tengu, and a small movement penalty for levitation (same as ponderous) instead of not being able to interact with the floor 17:59:31 this seems okay to me 17:59:58 or maybe even double ponderous 18:00:37 i think there not being any action speed penalty is a bit weird, how are you going to fight if you cant even move properly 18:00:40 how about we keep the current "no-floor" effect of levitation on top of the slow movement? 18:00:46 oh god no 18:00:59 alefury: an action speed penalty is awful. nobody would ever use it, seriously 18:01:11 people would use it to get across water/lava 18:01:14 which is what its for 18:01:14 it doesn't make sense for levitation to make it slower for you to read a scroll 18:01:18 alefury: gameplay > realism 18:01:21 alefury: that's a really limited use 18:01:22 it's not so bad. You only use levitation to cross water/lava, you don't keep it all the time. 18:01:33 dpeg: it isn't even realism here, see my example with the scroll :P 18:01:33 elliptic: its a level 2 spell 18:01:49 galehar: if it is perma-castable, it should allow interaction with the floor 18:01:53 counterexample: attacking with a sword, or a trident, or whatever 18:01:59 alefury: it is level 3 18:02:14 oh, you want to downgrade to levitation but keep the level 18:02:28 I think it might be better to call it flight still 18:02:37 and just make tengu/controlled flight a different color 18:02:41 so flight --> controlled flight 18:03:16 elliptic: if it has a movement speed penalty, nobody will ever want to permacast it. Permacast would only be used for flight. 18:03:29 i think having different status lights is much clearer (significant difference in effect --> different light), and you never have both at the same time 18:03:41 galehar: they would in swamp/shoals 18:03:55 Can enforce it through the UI though *evil grin* 18:04:29 galehar: seriously, no pickup during levitation is one of the worst things left in crawl 18:05:06 galehar: if you'd ever tried to do swamp/shoals with boots of levitation and no cFly, you'd agree with us about removing the no pickup thing :P 18:06:31 right, I didn't do that. I noticed that using evokable levitation in those cases have a hunger cost. Nothing you could call relevant though... 18:07:05 elliptic: regarding that thread, what do you think about a minimum hunger cost for spells? 18:07:48 speedruns with only levitation (no flight) sometimes lead to hilarity in swamp/shoals 18:08:08 I haven't dared to look at that thread :P what is the motivation for wanting a minimum hunger cost? 18:08:28 hunger cost for spells is good, so why allow people to remove it? 18:08:33 it was galehar who suggested it, though 18:08:54 I don't know how large a minimum hunger cost you were suggesting 18:09:16 something like 20% of max originally i think 18:09:50 nothing really specific. I started with something between 1/10 and 1/7 of base hunger for minimum 18:10:41 KoboldLord suggested 1/3 as a minimum and a "diminishing return" scale for intelligence*spellcasting effect 18:10:58 i came up with an IMO okay formula for diminishing returns (to 0 actually, but you never even get close for high level spells), but didnt post it because i didnt look at how to simplify it yet 18:11:21 n/(n+1) came up 18:11:43 I think it isn't a great idea, for one reason: it makes players have to worry more about which spells to use on the masses of non-dangerous stuff to minimize the hunger cost 18:12:08 alefury: post it anyway. Maybe somebody can help simplifying it 18:12:09 this isn't very interesting 18:12:25 the formula i came up with allows for stronger reduction of low level spell hunger 18:12:34 elliptic: underlying problem: too many non-dangerous monsters 18:12:48 dpeg: sure, but we aren't eliminating all of them anytime soon 18:12:54 pity that 18:13:07 elliptic: right now, a lot of players worry about getting their spell hungerless. 18:13:07 wasnt there a suggestion to remove non-dangerous monsters that are not near dangerous monsters after placement? 18:13:11 99% of monsters are "non-dangerous" in the sense I mean 18:13:12 that sounded pretty okay 18:13:30 talking about D:20 rats here 18:13:46 or D:10 rats, really 18:13:55 make that D:3 rats 18:14:29 ok, about levitation, I say we keep it just as a miscast effect of enchantment. For historical reasons. 18:14:36 even a d:27 goblin could pick up a wand 18:14:46 galehar: I'm not talking about worrying about getting spells hungerless so much as being aware of which ones are and using those in situations where any spell will do 18:15:08 Then we changes boots and ring of levitation to * of flight 18:16:04 i suggested that a few months ago :P 18:16:28 dpeg: part of the issue is that most monsters are harmless on their own even if they can be threats when combined with other monsters 18:16:35 so having some good spells hungerless is a worry because it lets you not worry about spell hunger... 18:17:18 dpeg: like, crocodiles in lair can contribute to nasty situations, but they'll never make you afraid 18:17:19 so the current proposal for flight is just a movement penalty, and dracs/tengu/cflight amulet remove the movement penalty? 18:17:27 who cares about catoblepae if you're not tabbing it to death 18:17:41 dpeg: er, never make you afraid on their own 18:17:42 MarvinPA: yes 18:17:42 until the hydra comes around the corner 18:17:46 * due tabs dpeg 18:17:55 what about stealth and carrying bonus? 18:18:17 galehar: no, I see hungerless spells as a good thing because it means less minmaxing 18:18:49 Although if we keep levitation as a miscast effect, then we need a terminology to differentiate slow flight and flight. Controlled doesn't sound much like faster. 18:19:06 galehar: with every spell giving hunger, you'd always have to worry about whether casting IMB twice or throw flame five times is better against monsters for which either will do 18:19:10 always 18:19:31 well, thats assuming the hunger clock somehow is made relevant (haha) 18:20:12 galehar: in fights where you need to cast high-level spells, the spell hunger is already significant sometimes 18:20:26 elliptic: all right, I trust you. I wasn't feeling too strongly about this hunger idea anyway. 18:20:30 i would even say often 18:20:32 just hit it with a staff of fire 18:20:42 but at some point you have everything hungerless 18:20:47 alefury: no 18:21:02 one other thing that came up was making staff of energy only give 50% hunger reduction 18:21:07 I pretty much never have level 6 spells hungerless in the course of a three-runer 18:21:09 so, any idea for rmsl? 18:21:17 make it affect own missiles! 18:21:24 what counts as a missile 18:21:26 (yes, this is pretty brutal) 18:21:39 alefury: keep stealth for improved flight but drop the carrying bonus altogether 18:21:43 galehar: chance of glow whenever it repels a missile could be interesting, maybe 18:21:52 (improved sounds way too D&D) 18:22:04 galehar: why? carrying bonus is pretty nifty to have 18:22:27 alefury: affecting own missiles doesn't make much sense to me and wouldn't affect many chars at all 18:22:32 that way *taurs can turn you into a horribly disfigured mess before killing you 18:22:40 elliptic: any conjurations based char 18:22:40 dropping the carrying bonus sounds sensible, yeah 18:22:57 then leave the carrying bonus even to normal flight 18:22:59 what i mean is, if you have rmsl, so do all the monsters 18:23:01 I don't see a reason to drop the carrying bonus 18:23:08 leave it for normal flight IMO 18:23:28 well surely if it slows you then you'll only use it when you actually need it (to cross water or whatever) 18:24:00 in which case the carrying bonus isn't doing much 18:24:15 some people use stashes. some people even move them. 18:24:21 elliptic: if rMsl gives glow only when repelling missiles, then players will want to permacast it. Should we allow? 18:24:23 elliptic: yes, I know. A rat is meaningful if it sits between you and the cyclops. Nonetheless, lone rats are bad. 18:24:45 having it be used just to carry stuff to a stash doesn't sound particularly worthwhile either 18:24:58 whats the reason for dropping it? 18:24:59 dpeg: No, rats are awesome if between you and the cyclops/stone giant/berserk Duvessa 18:25:33 rat bands 18:25:37 MarvinPA: it is relevant with controlled flight though 18:25:43 on tengu or with cFly amulet 18:25:50 oh, mmm 18:25:54 HangedMan: Heavby metal rat bands. 18:25:56 then again green rat bands in lair are pointlesish and a half 18:26:01 HangedMan: Thery smash your mouth over the head with a steel guitar! 18:26:13 what is this, kol 18:26:23 i guess so, yeah. pretty boring usage of a spell/item there, though 18:26:26 Yews. 18:26:36 note that tengu uses the carrying capacity bonus heavily to stay under 66% burden for the movement speed boost 18:27:23 -!- due changed the topic of ##crawl-dev to: KOL Development | Logs: http://s-z.org/kol-dev/ | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general KOL-related chit-chat to ##kol. | Dev wiki: http://kol.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 18:27:27 :> 18:27:32 galehar: hm, maybe I need to come up with a better drawback then 18:27:36 who's jick 18:27:56 and are zot traps made to surround anybody carrying 13 of anything 18:28:15 elliptic: so we agree that we don't want players to autoexplore with permacasted rMsl? 18:28:29 galehar: it might be okay actually if rMsl is nerfed 18:28:45 right 18:28:48 kilobyte was criticizing the rMsl formula anyway 18:28:50 >:) 18:28:55 kolobyte, you mean? 18:29:27 yeah, I think he said something about the whole ranged combat needing some rewriting 18:29:31 if it is changed somehow to be less good against later monsters, letting people permacast it could be fine 18:29:47 there's still the question of what form of permacasting we want to use, by the way 18:29:48 someone suggested making it like shroud 18:30:22 I don't believe in that. In my opinion, all buffs should be tactical, in a perfect world. 18:30:31 Amulet of controlled flight -> Amulet of Swift Fly? 18:30:34 if non-permanent casting is still possible, permacasting should not provide an extra advantage 18:30:39 *Flight 18:30:52 its a nice nod towards people not totally new to crawl :) 18:30:54 alefury: nor disadvantage 18:30:54 Can someone move me into the emeritus section of credits? I haven't committed anything useful/worthwhile in months. 18:31:10 galehar: Why not just "Amulet of Flight"? 18:31:35 Except it doesn't let you flight on its own 18:31:50 or should it? 18:32:12 no 18:32:30 No, it shouldn't 18:32:34 galehar: I think that "controlled flight" is fine 18:33:56 ring of flight? Boots of flying? 18:40:05 elliptic: here is the form of perma-casting I'm planning (you already read that a while ago): https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:magic:power_duration#alternate_implementation 18:41:33 -!- medgno has joined ##crawl-dev 18:42:39 galehar: I liked that form originally because it is mainly just interface changes, but I wonder whether something else might be better if only some spells are getting it 18:43:20 the main thing I don't like about it is that it *isn't* permanent... you'll miscast the spell periodically 18:43:46 -!- R18_ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:44:27 if you have 10% failure rate on spider form, this system sort of just means that the duration is 10x longer (on average, with lots of variance) 18:45:43 it can auto recast if i_feel_safe 18:46:16 -!- R18 has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:46:27 -!- R18_ is now known as R18 18:46:43 still better 18:47:26 galehar: also there is weird stuff like whether you should get any warning before it expires in combat 18:47:52 nights 18:48:01 nights 18:48:01 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:48:04 getting messages saying that the form is about to expire every 20 turns is clearly not good 18:48:16 there's no message 18:48:17 but also having it end in combat with no warning isn't good 18:48:37 you get one only if you fail the backrgound recast 18:48:49 that's what I mean by end in combat 18:48:54 and if you fail it, the spell starts expiring, it doesn't expire right away. 18:49:09 oh, I see 18:49:36 so you have some time to refresh it. 18:50:57 one minor issue with this is that currently some spells give a lot less duration on average if you recast them while they are still in effect 18:51:09 but that's just a detail to be worked out 18:51:31 yes, some duration adjustments might be needed 18:52:01 btw, wouldn't be good to reduce rMsl and/or swiftness duration, since they are not to be permacasted? :) 18:53:49 regarding duration, I think all spell should just set the duration. We shouldn't ever add up to it, it only complicate things. 18:54:01 Severedicks (L3 NaWz) ERROR in 'tileweb.cc' at line 204: Socket write error: Bad file descriptor (D:2) 18:54:53 galehar: uh, no. if you do things like that, then it becomes optimal to wait until several turns after the expiration warning (but before expiration) to recast 18:55:25 I think all spells should just add to the duration, regardless of whether the duration was at 0 or positive :) 18:56:15 but then you cast a spell several time to load it up to full duration. It's a bit obscure. 18:56:39 especially with channeling 18:57:14 should probably be capped at 2x max duration if its done that way. either permacast and take the penalties, or periodically recast. cant have the best of both worlds for free. 18:57:28 galehar: knowing exactly how long the expiration warnings are is much more obscure 18:57:57 the expiration warning duration is actually randomized 18:58:06 another option though is to do something a little more complicated... 18:58:30 rwbarton: well, know the range of possible durations 18:58:44 yeah 18:59:00 we could keep old duration only up to the expiration warning duration, and then add new duration 18:59:14 we could say that once the expiration threshold is hit, then it has 1 chance in x to expire any turn 18:59:31 galehar: not good for stuff like lev that can kill you 19:00:03 right 19:05:39 a problem with removing flight or changing it to interfere with spellcasting: the Shoals are a major pain without flight/swimming/Beogh/etc 19:05:57 without Swiftness, though, most of the reason to fly elsewhere is gone 19:06:04 swamp 19:06:10 abyss! 19:06:14 only mechanical traps and short-term carrying capacity 19:06:18 yeah 19:06:25 cocytus 19:06:27 uh 19:06:34 kilobyte: the current idea is to make uncontrolled flight give a movement speed penalty, not a spellcasting penalty 19:06:36 Coc:7 mostly 19:06:38 https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?p=49971#p49971 19:06:46 still a place to want it 19:06:50 spellhunger formula (likely irrelevant, but thought id post it anyway) 19:07:11 alefury: damn no! It's food reform 2.0. 19:07:14 kilobyte: on the other hand, it has a stealth bonus. So if you care about that, you've got no reason *not* to use it. 19:07:23 galehar: right 19:07:31 a really really really tiny stealth bonus 19:07:44 yeah but still one 19:08:03 could be removed or even replaced by a penalty 19:08:35 iirc flight makes you less stealthy if you are wearing boots of stealth or elven boots 19:08:39 same for carrying capacity (Tengu aside) 19:08:55 kilobyte: yeah, elliptic mentioned something like that (without mentioning the food reform, but same in spirit). hence "likely irrelevant" 19:09:39 regarding expiration duration, how about uniformising them all to something like 5-10 for example? 19:09:51 spell reform 19:10:27 not forcing people to think about stuff that shouldnt require any thought is something i can definitely get behind 19:10:32 alefury: thanks for the formulae and plot. A bit late to comment on that kinda things, but will do ;) 19:11:07 where are the worthwhile reforms 19:11:11 like mon-pick.cc reform 19:11:17 something simpler could maybe be done: half int over 20 for spell hunger purposes 19:11:27 I'm thinking mon-band.cc 19:11:32 int needs a nerf, and keeping spell hunger for top level spells is worthwhile imo 19:11:36 also that sure 19:11:38 for rMsl: if you have good EV, you get hit in melee once per 86738467346897 blows, while missiles hardly care about EV at all, and spells care quite little. rMsl is thus really wanted. Rebalance missiles and we can change or even remove rMsl. 19:11:51 I just want fire crabs out of lair, sirens out of swamp, and death drakes out of dis 19:12:10 ??spell hunger 19:12:11 spell hunger[1/2]: Casting a spell lowers your nutrition by an amount varying with the spell's level: (1) 50, (2) 95, (3) 160, (4) 250, (5) 350, (6) 550, (7) 700, (8) 860, (9) 1000. This amount is lowered by the product of your Intelligence and Spellcasting. (For rods, your Evocation skill * 10, with a minimum of 5.) 19:12:30 y u no like fire crab 19:12:52 because it got my hopes up that the seven fire crab death in lair were to non-polymorphed crabs 19:12:55 with half int over 20 i mean like dex for ev works iirc 19:13:03 kilobyte: fsim is a bit more usable, maybe we could use it to help us balance ranged combat 19:13:11 so 30 could count as 25, 40 as 30, etc 19:13:21 BlastHardcheese: unless you can avoid the cloud, you lose most scrolls in a single fight, this is what pissed people off 19:13:41 alefury: maybe, though if we do that then we should use a smooth function 19:13:41 I think he was referring to my comment about fire crabs in lair 19:13:54 which are just *silly* 19:13:55 also they are very tough and do way more damage than most things in their depth range 19:16:49 its late. good night! 19:16:51 interesting thing about fire crabs in Lair is that they have rarity of _1_ 19:17:01 -!- alefury has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 10.0.2/20120215223356]] 19:17:20 kilobyte: that means they can only appear at one specific depth, right? 19:17:21 a fun tier of rarity 19:17:49 alongside master elves, toenail golems, and trapdoor spiders in tomb 19:18:01 this means, even a single level of difference in depth denies them unless the picker has some strange problems generating monsters (and in Lair, with many eligible monsters, that's basically impossible) 19:18:10 yeah 19:18:41 !lg * killer=fire crab place=lair:8 19:18:41 3. Gilihad the Grappler (L13 TrCj), worshipper of Sif Muna, engulfed by a fire crab's flame on Lair:8 on 2012-02-27, with 43453 points after 19327 turns and 2:04:22. 19:18:45 !lg * killer=fire crab place=lair:8 -tv 19:20:31 -!- ZorbaBeta has joined ##crawl-dev 19:22:02 what I got out of this discussion: https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?p=49972#p49972 19:22:02 blademasters have a depth of Elf:9 and rarity of 1... 19:22:03 * galehar finally goes to sleep... 19:22:03 unlike fire crabs who can happen on Lair:8 without being placed by a vault 19:22:03 -!- ZorbaTHut has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:22:04 ah no, I somehow had a misconception that OODs happen only in the main dungeon 19:22:05 3. Gilihad, XL13 TrCj, T:19327 requested for FooTV. 19:28:05 Poncheis the Executioner (L15 DDBe) ASSERT(smc) in 'mon-util.cc' at line 1106 failed on turn 15514. (D:17) 19:28:23 !lm * crash -log 19:28:24 2261. Poncheis, XL15 DDBe, T:15514 (milestone): http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Poncheis/crash-Poncheis-20120228-012804.txt 19:28:53 trampled into a shaft 19:31:12 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:33:42 -!- kek has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:34:13 -!- HangedMan has quit [] 19:35:13 trampled, blinked, gently prodded, pushed by a tide, ... 20:21:35 Rosham (L1 OpTm) ERROR in 'tileweb.cc' at line 204: Socket write error: Bad file descriptor (D:1) 20:27:50 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 20:31:08 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:31:08 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 20:36:44 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 20:47:53 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:09:18 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:11:18 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:11:18 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 21:15:26 SirBaton (L2 DsSk) ERROR in 'tileweb.cc' at line 204: Socket write error: Bad file descriptor (D:2) 21:58:34 -!- SamB__ is now known as SamB 22:20:27 -!- medgno has quit [Quit: Quitting] 22:38:27 <|amethyst> what just happened to the scores? 22:39:37 <|amethyst> oh 23:05:05 -!- ctair has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 10.0.2/20120215223356]] 23:15:46 -!- greatzebu_ has quit [Quit: greatzebu_] 23:56:23 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 10.0.2/20120215223356]]