--- Log opened Fri Dec 23 00:00:15 2011
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01:03 < Gretell> Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-2906-g9bd8075 (32)
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01:19 < Gretell> Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-2906-g9bd8075
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03:56 < Gretell> SurpriseTRex (L12 MuWz) ASSERT(attk_flavour == AF_REACH || weapon && weapon_reach(*weapon)) in 'melee_attack.cc' at line 4021 failed. (Lair:3)
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06:00 < Gretell> OSX builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-2906-g9bd8075
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06:53 < jeanjacques> uhm. jiyva slime6 wall disappearance is not working
06:55 < Gretell> Elynae (L16 HuHu) ASSERT(attk_flavour == AF_REACH || weapon && weapon_reach(*weapon)) in 'melee_attack.cc' at line 4021 failed. (Snake:5)
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07:29 < CIA-112> edlothiol * r28aefe0a5f7a /crawl-ref/CREDITS.txt: Update the credits.
07:47 < Gretell> smarmy (L11 MuWz) ASSERT(attk_flavour == AF_REACH || weapon && weapon_reach(*weapon)) in 'melee_attack.cc' at line 4021 failed. (Lair:3)
07:49 < Gretell> smarmy (L11 MuWz) ASSERT(attk_flavour == AF_REACH || weapon && weapon_reach(*weapon)) in 'melee_attack.cc' at line 4021 failed. (Lair:3)
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09:07 < res> ??mephitic cloud[2]
09:07 < Henzell> mephitic cloud[2/7]: Will not expand diagonally if the vertical and horizontal are blocked by walls.
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10:01 < CIA-112> kilobyte * r4584abda3f00 /crawl-ref/ (CREDITS.txt source/Makefile source/util/crawl.nsi): Store CREDITS in one column, format into three on packaging or install.
10:01 <+kilobyte> dpeg_: the ban on sorting CREDITS.txt is no more, I made it diffable another way
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10:34 < Henzell> Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.10-a0-2908-g4584abd (32)
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11:16 <+|amethyst> Is there any point to "You're starting to get the hang of this magic thing." now?
11:17 <+kilobyte> yes!  This message is there to remind us to purge some remnants of victory dancing like this message :p
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11:22 <+|amethyst> Hm... should the hint be removed as well?
11:22 <+|amethyst> "Great, from now on you'll be able to cast spells! Press <w>%</w> to have a look at your skills and manage their training."
11:24 <+|amethyst> Maybe "As your Spellcasting skill increases, you will be able to memorise more spells and cast them more reliably.  Press <w>%</w> to have a look at your skills and manage their training." ?
11:25 < alefury> % is the char screen, m is skill screen
11:25 <+|amethyst> it's a placeholder
11:25 < alefury> ah
11:25 < alefury> the message sounds good
11:26 < alefury> or hm
11:26 < alefury> maybe mention spell hunger reduction?
11:26 <+|amethyst> maybe something about spell hunger instead of failure
11:26 <+|amethyst> yeah
11:26 < alefury> slots and hunger are most important imo
11:26 < alefury> it also affects mp
11:27 < alefury> damn, spellcasting is good
11:27 <+elliptic> the effect on failure is important though
11:27 < alefury> its all important
11:28 < alefury> the real problem may be when the message is shown
11:28 < alefury> i dont know if the caster hints mode start ever gets to see it
11:28 <+|amethyst> no
11:29 <+|amethyst> you only see the message when you gain your first level of spellcasting *and* spellcasting is your highest magic skill
11:29 < alefury> hints mode m screen still mentions skill progress btw
11:30 < alefury> also, you cant seem to manage skill training in hints mode
11:31 < alefury> and pressing ! does nothing, but is mentioned in the m screen hint
11:31 <+|amethyst> hm
11:31 <+|amethyst> how to word the hunger thing
11:32 <+|amethyst> ". . . you will be able to memorise more spells, and will suffer less hunger when you cast"
11:32 <+|amethyst> ?
11:34 <+|amethyst> or  "... will suffer less hunger and fewer miscasts when you cast them"
11:35 < alefury> slightly fewer miscasts?
11:36 <+|amethyst> hm
11:36 <+|amethyst> "slightly" isn't exactly accurate
11:37 <+|amethyst> it's not that hard to get low-level spells to excellent with only spellcasting
11:38 <+|amethyst> "miscast" probably isn't good anyway
11:39 <+Napkin> g'evening
11:39 < Henzell> Napkin: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them.
11:39 <+|amethyst> that makes it sound like the failure rate stays the same but you get sif-like miscast protection
11:39 <+Napkin> ?? macosx
11:39 < Henzell> I don't have a page labeled macosx in my learndb.
11:39 <+Napkin> ?? mac
11:39 < Henzell> I don't have a page labeled mac in my learndb.
11:39 <+Napkin> ?? dev-builds
11:39 < Henzell> I don't have a page labeled devbuilds in my learndb.
11:39 <+Napkin> ?? trunk
11:39 < Henzell> trunk[1/4]: The latest (unreleased) development code of Stone Soup is often referred to as trunk.
11:39 < alefury> |amethyst: looking at some of the other hints i dont think you need to worry too much about it
11:40 <+|amethyst> "somewhat fewer failures" I guess
11:40 < alefury> seems like hints mode in general could use an overhaul :(
11:40 <+Napkin> hmm, someone remember the name of the person that does the macosx trunk builds?
11:40 < alefury> greatzebu?
11:40 <+Napkin> is that how his name is spelled?
11:40 <+|amethyst> Napkin:  Aaron Becker | greatzebu | OS X nightly build maintainer and occasional patch submitter
11:41 <+Napkin> where do you have that from? :)
11:41 < alefury> probably the wiki
11:41 <+|amethyst> https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:admin:devteam
11:41 <+Napkin> ah, useful :) thanks
11:43 < alefury> gawd, hints mode is horrible
11:44 < alefury> unfortunately i dont remember how i figured out crawl
11:44 < alefury> there was no tutorial, and i only briefly tried hints mode
11:45 < alefury> not much use of ?? either, and the mouse interface wasnt as good as it is now back then
11:45 < alefury> i really have no idea how i did it
11:47 <+Napkin> learning by doing, probably
11:48 < alefury> daaaaaaamn why is this DECj in hints mode? ring of magical power and ring of wizardry on D:1 and D:2
11:48 < alefury> ??why
11:48 < Henzell> why[1/1]: Because Crawl hates you, that's why.
11:49 < Gretell> clouded (L23 KoWn) ASSERT(attk_flavour == AF_REACH || weapon && weapon_reach(*weapon)) in 'melee_attack.cc' at line 4021 failed. (Snake:1)
11:49 <+Napkin> does hint-mode never end?
11:50 < alefury> i dont know, i never got far in it
11:50 <+|amethyst> !lm clouded crash -log
11:50 <+Napkin> i mean, does it repeat every hint whenever it has a chance to do so?
11:50 < Sequell> 24. clouded, XL23 KoWn, T:102889 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/clouded/crash-clouded-20111223-164859.txt
11:50 <+|amethyst> world's largest switch statement
11:51 <+|amethyst> it does not repeat hints
11:52 < alefury> the main problem with hints mode is the blocked m screen
11:52 < alefury> some skills are off, some are on, and i cant change it
11:53 <+Napkin> oh, wow
11:53 <+Napkin> that's bad indeed
11:53 <+SamB> really?
11:53 <+SamB> fixorate!
11:54 <+Napkin> well, at least I thought it's a normal game.. with the occational hint pop-ups
11:55 < alefury> i think its normal in all other respects
11:56 <+SamB> I think that's just a bug
11:56 <+SamB> I'm pretty sure it wasn't like that before
11:57 <+kilobyte> once you reach XL7 it's a regular game
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12:01 < alefury> ah, thats good then
12:05 < alefury> wooo, i survived to the end of hints mode!
12:09 <+|amethyst> "Incompatible weapon specified in options file."
12:09 <+|amethyst> I guess we expect hints mode players not to have customised their init?
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12:10 <+|amethyst> hm
12:10 <+|amethyst> I guess the hint can't show up ATM
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12:11 <+|amethyst> but I'll leave it in case someone makes skills selectable
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12:15 < CIA-112> |amethyst * r827aeca06dc6 /crawl-ref/source/ (hints.cc skills.cc): Change hints on gaining Spellcasting 1.
12:16 <+|amethyst> hm
12:16 <+|amethyst> in clouded's crash
12:16 <+|amethyst> Monster 'naga' (23, 11) [midx = 33] currently acting:
12:16 <+|amethyst> Foe: player
12:16 <+|amethyst> Target: (27, 8)
12:18 <+|amethyst> oh, that one's next to a small abomination
12:21 < alefury> Ripplez	what kind of wildlife have i stumbled upon
12:22 < alefury> reaction to the bat cave vault :D
12:26 <+SamB> is someone working on "can't change skill focus in hints mode"?
12:26 <+|amethyst> I am not
12:26 < alefury> its intentional afaik
12:27 < alefury> because the m screen is crazy complicated
12:27 <+SamB> alefury: I'm pretty sure it didn't work like that before!
12:27 < alefury> but some of the hints contradict this
12:27 <+|amethyst> it mentions pressing ! but that does nothing
12:27 < alefury> also pressing ! is mentioned in the m screen hint, but does nothing, and the m screen hint in general is outdated
12:27 <+|amethyst> so something is unintentional
12:27 <+SamB> yeah, presumably that's just stale
12:27 < alefury> SamB: maybe it was changed in 0.9, when the m screen was even more complicated
12:28 <+SamB> well, worse complicated anyway
12:28 <+SamB> anyway, I'm pretty sure that you can change stuff in 0.9
12:29 < alefury> i think this was discussed at some point...
12:29 < alefury> im pretty sure its intentional, but i dont remember the reasons
12:29 <+SamB> I think it's wrong
12:30 < alefury> well, it definitely sucks
12:30 <+SamB> and if it was intentional, the hints should have been changed to reflect this
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12:30 <+SamB> obviously the ! thing needs changing anyway
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12:44 < alefury> Napkin: there he is
12:45 <+Napkin> found me :)
12:47 < alefury> i meant there is greatzebu
12:47 < greatzebu> right, I have appeared :)
12:47 < alefury> napkin asked about you and i thought he wanted something. guess not.
12:47 < alefury> sorry for bothering everyone!
12:48 < greatzebu> nope, you're right. We are chatting now
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12:57 <+Napkin> nono, thanks for pinging me, alefury - i was just busy privmsging with him already :)
13:02 < bmh> there's a description of the square los implementation somewhere around here, 'eh?
13:03 <+Napkin> i wouldn't even remember who implemented it
13:03 < bmh> found it! https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:gameplay:square_los#implementation
13:04 < bmh> er, that section isn't helpful :)
13:04 < Eronarn> squarelos<3
13:05 < alefury> well, theres a branch
13:05 < alefury> right?
13:07 < Eronarn> yes (possibly even two)
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13:17 < alefury> someone on crawl said message order for hitting with devastator is wrong
13:17 < alefury> can anyone just fix it, or should i report it/poke the guy with devastator?
13:32 <+elliptic> on a quick glance, it looks nontrivial to fix without messing something else up
13:36 < alefury> hm, ill report it then, unless you have something smart to say
13:39 < greatzebu> I posted a ticket with a documentation fix for compiling mac versions of crawl at https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5114 if anyone has a moment to take care of it.
13:41 < alefury> oh, btw, a tiles build of latest trunk crashes on startup for me
13:42 < alefury> did someone break it or is this a problem on my end?
13:43 < greatzebu> I just compiled tiles from trunk a minute ago and it's working for me
13:43 < alefury> hm. im on windows
13:43 < greatzebu> although it may be a platform issue, yeah
13:43 < greatzebu> I'm on mac, for reference
13:43 < alefury> it just closes without any error
13:43 <+elliptic> alefury: I needed to do a make clean to stop a startup crash
13:43 < alefury> ah, okay
13:43 <+elliptic> (on linux, non-tiles)
13:47 < st_> |amethyst: want me to mantis that constriction+reaching bug from earlier?
13:47 < blueDave> I'm not |amethyst, but yes
13:48 <+|amethyst> srue
13:48 <+|amethyst> I'm doing a patch to include constriction info in crash dumps
13:48 < st_> (I'm clouded if you didn't know)
13:49 < blueDave> sounds like a good idea
13:50 < blueDave> is the con+reach bug mentioned in this channel or the other one?
13:53 <+SamB> Hmm. I think we need to change some of these USE_TILE #ifndefs in hints.cc ?
13:53 <+|amethyst> !lm clouded crash -log
13:53 < Sequell> 24. clouded, XL23 KoWn, T:102889 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/clouded/crash-clouded-20111223-164859.txt
13:54 <+SamB> they should prbobably be changed to reference USE_TILE_LOCAL
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14:09 < CIA-112> |amethyst * r33745cd6fea7 /crawl-ref/source/ (dbg-asrt.cc dbg-util.cc dbg-util.h): Include monster/player constriction info in crash dumps.
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14:29 < blueDave> I can take the constriction crash from st_ (clouded)
14:29 < blueDave> unless someone is already working on it
14:29 <+|amethyst> go for it
14:30 <+|amethyst> not sure what caused it here, but I bet getting trampled while constricted would do it
14:30 <+|amethyst> wizmode &xm while constricted does it, if you can arrange so the monster doesn't try to move next turn
14:31 <+|amethyst> e.g.    .PS@   get constricted by the S then &xm to the other side of the plant
14:32 < blueDave> that's the no-attack case, needs to let go if distance is too far
14:32 < blueDave> the reaching case is when defender is distant, tries to constrict anyway
14:33  * SamB wonders if there should be a chance of disarming?
14:33 <+|amethyst> blueDave: you could still get it in the melee_attack case if the monster is constricting two things
14:33 <+|amethyst> blueDave:  one of which moves
14:34 < blueDave> yeah, I already found and fixed one of those when swapping places, overlooked the reaching case
14:54 <+evilmike> I just wrote a bunch of feedback on monster constrictors https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:effect:constriction
14:54 <+evilmike> this is all gameplay stuff, nothing to do with the code itself
14:54 <+evilmike> although I brought up one thing that's possibly a bug
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15:07 < alefury> evilmike: you can attempt to teleport while constricted (which then fails if still constricted) because you might break free before the teleport triggers. this enables using a tele scroll, then breaking free while waiting for it to kick in. there should probably be a prompt for this.
15:07 <+evilmike> alefury: good point
15:08 < st_> I don't like the no tele/blink stuff either
15:09 < st_> it's not like the player isn't spending valuable resources
15:10 <+evilmike> I think at the very least, blink and tele should count as reliable (maybe not guaranteed) escape attempts. More relible than trying to move away
15:10 < alefury> well, casters have blink. forcing them into melee if they dont deal with the problem in time is probably my favorite thing about constriction in theory.
15:10 < alefury> cblink being fairly reliable is okay imo
15:10 < alefury> regular blink, not so much
15:10 < alefury> maybe same chance as moving away, but you blink if you succeed?
15:11 <+evilmike> right now the chance of moving away is too messed up for that to work. the formula guarantees failure on the first attempt
15:11 < alefury> well, i mean after that problem is fixed
15:12 <+evilmike> if I had to say what my biggest problems are, it's krakens and anacondas. Especially anacondas, which I think reduce snake to "never enter unless you can melee one"
15:13 < alefury> krakens have always been brutal
15:13 <+evilmike> I'd risk it if I had a few scrolls of blinking. Not teleport too, that's too slow
15:13 < alefury> so nerfing them a bit is pretty safe i think
15:13 <+evilmike> You could at least melee krakens (with risk) before. It's suicidal now, unless their damage is lowered
15:13 < alefury> lower kraken damage would be fine imo
15:14 < greatzebu> shoals is already out of balance with swamp and snake, difficulty-wise
15:14 < alefury> i like their high HP, combined with the large target (multiple damage possible with aoe spells and clouds iirc) it forces people to fight differently
15:15 <+evilmike> yeah they're cool monsters
15:15 < alefury> but damage is way too high, especially because there are usually multiple tentacles attacking at once
15:15 < alefury> the coolest, by far
15:15 < alefury> seeing one brings a smile to my face every time, even though theyre brutally dangerous
15:16 <+elliptic> aoe spells are too good against krakens IMO
15:16 <+elliptic> refrigeration can one-shot them if there are a lot of long tentacles in sight, for instance
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15:17 <+elliptic> bolt spells and clouds are rather good too
15:17 < alefury> i think thats fine. bolts are available via wands after all.
15:17 <+elliptic> well, it doesn't make much sense to me
15:18 <+evilmike> I think of AOE being super effective as making sense, if you think of krakens having more surface area than other monsters
15:18 < alefury> its a huge monster, with huge surface area to attack, and huge hp
15:18 < alefury> it makes a lot of sense to me that it takes a lot of damage from aoe spells
15:18 <+evilmike> being one shot from refrigeration is bad though
15:18 <+elliptic> we don't have spells do more damage to dragons than to rats
15:19 < alefury> theyre not quite as humongous?
15:19 < alefury> also, you kind of do
15:19 < alefury> rats in lair come in packs
15:19 < alefury> so aoe spells are good against them
15:19 < alefury> oh, i have it the wrong way around
15:20 < alefury> the analogy with bands still stands though
15:21  * blueDave hopes to survive long enough to see a kraken ;)
15:21 <+elliptic> alefury: well, I don't like it how waiting for a kraken to extend tentacles lets you do 5x the damage to it with fireball, or 15x with refrig, or whatever
15:22 < alefury> hm. the same tentacle should only take damage from a spell once imo. but multiple tentacles taking damage from the same spell is fine imo
15:22 < G-Flex> [15:17:30] <alefury> its a huge monster, with huge surface area to attack, and huge hp
15:22 < G-Flex> I'm not sure a kraken being multi-tile is meant to imply that it's "huge"
15:22 < G-Flex> after all, a titan takes as much damage from an AOE spell as if it were a smaller creature
15:22 < alefury> well, the tentacles extending for multiple tiles kind of implies it imo
15:22 < blueDave> does the damage to each tentacle get rolled into the kraken itself, or is it all separate?
15:23 < alefury> shared hp pool
15:23 < blueDave> if separate then killing tentacles is like killing band members -- maybe it should work that way instead?
15:23 < alefury> that would make the main monster harmless once the tentacles are gone though
15:24 < alefury> well, still 40 damage or something
15:24 < alefury> @??kraken
15:24 < Gretell> kraken (X) | Speed: 14 | HD: 16 | Health: 183-237 | AC/EV: 20/0 | Damage: 50 | Flags: cold-blooded, !sil | Res: magic(64), drown | Chunks: poison+contam | XP: 3217 | Sp: spawn tentacles, ink cloud.
15:24 < alefury> @??tentacle
15:24 < Gretell> tentacle (w) | Speed: 17 | HD: 12 | Health: 39-58 | AC/EV: 5/7 | Damage: 29 | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded, lev | Res: magic(immune), drown | XP: 0.
15:24 <+evilmike> the kraken acts like a multi-tile monster
15:24 < alefury> blueDave: the tentacles can die seperately, but tentacle damage is also done to the main monster
15:24 <+evilmike> you can kill it by meleeing its tentacles (though it will probably flee first)
15:25 < alefury> well, its called kraken hunting for a reason :D
15:26 < alefury> @??stone giant
15:26 < Gretell> stone giant (C) | Speed: 10 | HD: 16 | Health: 65-107 | AC/EV: 12/2 | Damage: 45 | Res: magic(85), drown | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 2025.
15:26 < alefury> kraken exp actually seems a bit low
15:27 < G-Flex> it does
15:28 < Eronarn> !learn add kraken <+evilmike> the kraken acts like a multi-tile monster
15:28 < Henzell> kraken[4/4]: <+evilmike> the kraken acts like a multi-tile monster
15:28 <+evilmike> is that entry really necessary? :P
15:28 <+evilmike> I think people realize the tentacles are connected to the big X
15:28 < Eronarn> that's why it's funny :)
15:29 <+evilmike> that's true
15:33 < alefury> i think if tentacles only tooks damage from the same spell once and damage was lowered krakens might be okay again
15:34 < alefury> multiple tentacles and the head taking damage from the same spell is fine imo
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15:50 < res> ??giant spore
15:50 < Henzell> giant spore[1/4]: Explodes when killed or next to you to do 3d15 damage, confuse you, and destroy your food.  Fortunately it has no AC and only 1 HP, but average EV - throw a rock at it if you lack conjurations or wands. The bane of Zin-worshippers and spriggans (except you can outrun them)! Use a polymorph wand on it if you like oklob plants.
15:50 < res> ??polymorph
15:50 < Henzell> polymorph other[1/5]: Changes monsters into other monsters, likely to be harder, but without equipment. When used on players by monsters, it causes bad mutations 9 times out of 10, or otherwise a random mutation, which can still be bad. You can't use it on yourself.
15:50 < res> ??polymorph other[2]
15:50 < Henzell> polymorph other[2/5]: Good targets for polymorph wand: killer bees, jellies, boggarts, harpies, electric eels, wasps, brown ugly things, and well-equipped monsters (e.g. orc knights).
15:51 < res> ??polymorph other[3]
15:51 < Henzell> polymorph other[3/5]: See !lg MadDasher place=D:2 ckiller=Dragon -tv for what can go wrong.
15:51 < res> ??polymorph other[4]
15:51 < Henzell> polymorph other[4/5]: 6891 | D:5     | Dowan the troll changed into Dowan the ettin
15:51 < res> ??polymorph other[5]
15:51 < Henzell> demon polymorphing[1/2]: In 0.9, demonic monsters can be polymorphed. Most of the time, 5s will turn into other 5s and 3s will turn into other 3s, but sometimes they will move up or down a rank, or turn into an efreet or something.
15:51 < res> how does polyother decide what to change?
15:51 < res> actually, better yet, where is it in the source?
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16:15 < alefury> i dont remember, but theres a polymorph monster function that gets called by the spell
16:15 < alefury> so youll need to look at least at two places
16:23 < heteroy> is there any  limit to how much more powerful a monster can poly into?
16:23 < heteroy> however statistically unlikely could a rat turn into a titan
16:24 < Eronarn> eventually, yes, as poly can add HD
16:24 < Eronarn> not sure if a single poly can do it though
16:24 < heteroy> that was what i was wondering specifically
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16:33 < dtsund> IIRC it's quite unlikely; I once tried it in order to increase my experience take.
16:33  * dtsund thinks altering experience gains through polymorph is an un-Crawlish exploit
16:39 <+evilmike> you tried... did you succeed?
16:40 <+evilmike> I sometimes hear people talk about using poly for this, I don't know if anyone's managed to do it though. I'm genuinely curious
16:40 < dtsund> I could get them up to around hound level, but don't think I could do significantly better.
16:40 < dtsund> It's been a long time since I tried, though, and my memory's hazy.
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17:06 < res> ... spriggan rank 5 necromancy is "la petite mort"
17:06 < res> that's terrible
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17:12 < ghallberg> How so?
17:13 < ghallberg> It's a silly pun :)
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17:32 < Kyrris> Plaudits:  Dungeons of Dredmor makes you guys look like savants.
17:32 < Kyrris> This is all.
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17:34 <+evilmike> who is plaudits?
17:35 ۰۰-- ainsophyao [~ainsophya@h175-177-004-046.catv02.itscom.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:36 < ghallberg> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/plaudit#English
17:37 < Gretell> commanderc (L15 KoDK) ASSERT(attk_flavour == AF_REACH || weapon && weapon_reach(*weapon)) in 'melee_attack.cc' at line 4021 failed. (Lair:8)
17:37 <+evilmike> ah
17:38 <+evilmike> I never beat dungeons of dredmore, I didn't like it
17:38 < ghallberg> Same here.
17:39 <+evilmike> I think it's a game you can only like if you're somewhat new to roguelikes. otherwise it's just too slow and too shallow
17:39 < ghallberg> THough I never beat dcss either...
17:39 <+evilmike> but as your first roguelike, DoD is probably a decent choice
17:39 < ghallberg> I just couldn't get into the graphical, non-vim style >.<
17:40 < Gretell> commanderc (L15 KoDK) ASSERT(attk_flavour == AF_REACH || weapon && weapon_reach(*weapon)) in 'melee_attack.cc' at line 4021 failed. (Lair:8)
17:40 <+evilmike> the graphical part is alright to me, but I dont like how everything is animated and how it's so mouse-reliant
17:40 < ghallberg> Hmm yeah, the mouse stuff is problematic.
17:40 <+evilmike> if crawl took that approach, a 5 hour ascension would take 40 hours
17:40 <+evilmike> maybe longer
17:42 < ghallberg> I think crawl is too long though.
17:42 < ghallberg> I often die due to slppy playing after a long session.
17:42 < ghallberg> But htat might be my mind conflicting with the goals of crawl-dev
17:43 < Eronarn> crawl is too long
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17:45 <+evilmike> post-lair down to about d:22 or so, also vaults:1-6, and crypt tend to drag. Call that the "midgame" if you want, but I prefer to talk about it in terms of actual levels
17:46 <+evilmike> if the game should be made shorter, that's the part to address
17:46 < ghallberg> I'd suggest smaller D-levels and shorter vault.
17:47 <+evilmike> late D tends to be one of the more fun parts of the game, because it has a lot of vaults and they're more common. Gives it decent variety
17:47 <+evilmike> but mid-late D and the Vaults branch is bad, since they have the same monster sets and most of the levels are pretty similar
17:58 < Eronarn> i feel like vaults should be more challenge-y than it is right now
18:00 < Eronarn> not just harder, i mean, but being set apart as working differently from the dungeon
18:00 < Eronarn> it really shouldn't feel like more dungeon levels
18:00 <+kilobyte> at the very least, they grant XP and provide some opportunities to die.  Unlike Elf:2-4.
18:01 <+kilobyte> would someone cry if an accident happened to some more of Elf?
18:02 <+evilmike> mikee probably would. I have issues with elf because 1-4 are too different from 5
18:02 < Eronarn> i'd rather see changes to elf layout/generation than just cutting levels
18:02 <+evilmike> elf:1-4 would be a decent midgame branch, but 5 is very endgame level
18:03 <+kilobyte> way harder than V:7, yeah
18:04 <+kilobyte> Eronarn: I'd replace one of levels by Dwarf
18:05 <+evilmike> I am unsure about a full-level dward branch/vault
18:05 <+evilmike> I'd like to make a couple of dwarf vaults though and put them in dungeon or V
18:05 <+evilmike> or let them generate in elf, I guess
18:06 < Eronarn> let's try a dwarf portal vault first
18:06 < HangedMan> dwarf and elven halls
18:06 <+kilobyte> evilmike: I've cut the Dwarf branch to a single level, but there are problems with it being generated
18:06 < Eronarn> HangedMan: dwarven fortress
18:06 < HangedMan> dwarf and elven halls, with some orcs
18:06 <+MarvinPA> i wouldn't miss a couple more floors of elf
18:06 <+MarvinPA> although i'd rather see V shortened, really
18:07 <+evilmike> my issue with dwarf monsters (this just comes from experimentation) is that there are some interesting ones, but they tend to work best in small numbers
18:07 <+evilmike> not really branch-worthy stuff
18:07 < Eronarn> MarvinPA: you know about the proposal to make vaults spawn inside boxes? that + not all boxes having stuff = 7 levels but little stuff on each level
18:07 < Eronarn> it'd feel desolate
18:10 <+kilobyte> fun bug: monsters constricting each other tend to to hp damage to you :p
18:10 <+evilmike> haha
18:11 <+kilobyte> hah!
18:11 <+kilobyte> if (attacker->constricting[i] = MHITYOU)
18:11 <+kilobyte> niiiice :)
18:17 < CIA-112> kilobyte * rf7fe7b63ec5a /crawl-ref/source/mon-act.cc: Don't make monster-monster constriction hurt the player.
18:17 < Eronarn> constriction is wonderfully buggyh
18:19 <+kilobyte> arena keeps crashing
18:20 < res> ??abandoned shop
18:20 < Henzell> I don't have a page labeled abandoned_shop in my learndb.
18:23 <+kilobyte> res: one you bought everything from
18:24 <+kilobyte> I don't know of different way for one to spawn out of wizmode
18:25 < Eronarn> should be a vault with one
18:26 < res> oh
18:26 < res> I was expecting something it to be something like spawn-a-mimic-when-you-step-on-it
18:26 <+kilobyte> just to screw with people?
18:27 < res> must be too much nethack for me!
18:27 < Eronarn> kilobyte: yes. also, we now have shop vaults, anyways
18:27 < Eronarn> so it'd make sense to have ones where someone got to them first
18:28 < res> would it be too difficult to have the shop vault occasionally spawn shops with the "best" items taken out?
18:28 < res> and by best I mean most expensive
18:28 < res> or something
18:29 < Eronarn> why? that's not something visible to the player
18:30 <+kilobyte> can't be distinguished from a shop that started crappy
18:30 < res> true
18:30 < res> or spawn an abandoned shop occasionally?
18:31 < res> abandoned shop vaults would be amusing
18:33 < Eronarn> hmm, that sounds like a good idea
18:33 < Eronarn> surprised nobody's suggested it
18:38 < HangedMan> I was going to have an abandoned shop vault for abyss
18:38 < HangedMan> but they don't start out pre-identified-abandoned so I just replaced with with a stone arch
18:39 < Eronarn> that seems worth fixing
18:39 <+kilobyte> HangedMan: you need to place them as abandoned_shop
18:40 <+kilobyte> which does not work due to a bug in shop parsing
18:40 < HangedMan> well then
18:40 < CIA-112> GreatZebu * r28953d432e52 /crawl-ref/INSTALL.txt: Update Mac build instructions.
18:40 < CIA-112> kilobyte * rc427f50ca702 /crawl-ref/source/ (dat/des/variable/mini_features.des mapdef.cc): A shop that starts empty.
18:40 < CIA-112> kilobyte * r2ae9ab3ee50a /crawl-ref/source/ (16 files in 3 dirs): Rename the enums for ball pythons and subtracter snakes to match visible names.
18:41 < HangedMan> what part of it doesn't work?
18:41 <+kilobyte> none anymore :p
18:41 < HangedMan> pff
18:42 <+kilobyte> the parsing assumed that anything that includes the word "shop" is a shop specification
18:42 <+kilobyte> abandoned_shop is technically not a shop, though
18:42 < HangedMan> could I mildly nudge you to replace the stone arch hangedman_abyss_mock_shop in abyss.des with an abandoned shop
18:42 < Eronarn> kilobyte: subtracter snakes? you taunt me so :(
18:43 <+elliptic> can we have subtracter snakes in zot
18:43 < Eronarn> yes, please
18:43 < Eronarn> they're just the kind of pun we need more of
18:44 < Zannick> it subtracts from your hp!
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18:45 <+kilobyte> Eronarn: those English-speaking bastards force non native speakers like me to look such animal names up, so some retribution is warranted :p
18:46 < Eronarn> kilobyte: hey, at least this one you can blame the brits for - adder is very rarely used in US english
18:46 < HangedMan_> fr: rename black mambas
18:47 < HangedMan_> also give them minor healing
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18:47 <+kilobyte> elliptic: what would those subtracter snakes do?
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18:48 < HangedMan> electric brand, different flavoured smite
18:49 <+elliptic> antimagic melee attack would make sense I think
18:49 <+elliptic> not sure what else
18:49 <+elliptic> (could be too similar to ghost moth then though)
18:49 < Eronarn> draining
18:49 <+kilobyte> AF_KLOWN
18:50 < HangedMan> all at once
18:50 <+kilobyte> nah, it merely changes the message :(
18:51  * kilobyte thought it's a kind of random brand.
18:51 <+elliptic> killer klowns do get random flavours on attack
18:51 < HangedMan> tickles
18:51 <+elliptic> not sure whether AF_KLOWN is what causes this, but I always assumed it was
18:51 <+kilobyte> @??killer klown
18:51 < Gretell> Killer Klown (@) | Speed: 13 | HD: 20 | Health: 129-171 | AC/EV: 10/15 | Damage: 30(klown) | Flags: evil, see invisible, regen, !sil | Res: magic(160) | Vul: holy | XP: 6835 | Sp: blink.
18:51 <+elliptic> !lg * killer=killer klown max=dam x=dam
18:51 < Sequell> 42. [dam=129] coyo7e the Eclecticist (L27 HuWz), worshipper of Vehumet, annihilated by a Killer Klown on Zot:4 on 2011-03-06, with 632673 points after 124248 turns and 21:14:58.
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18:51 <+elliptic> a good example (that was AF_COLD)
18:52 < Eronarn> we should add mimes
18:52 < HangedMan> silence, ranged constriction
18:53 <+kilobyte> ah right, random of {AF_POISON_NASTY, AF_ROT, AF_DRAIN_XP, AF_FIRE, AF_COLD, AF_BLINK}
18:53 < HangedMan> ??af klown
18:53 < Henzell> I don't have a page labeled af_klown in my learndb.
18:53 < HangedMan> ??klown
18:53 < Henzell> klown[1/1]: Special damage type used by Killer Klowns.  Per attack randomly: nasty poison (spiny frog), rot (necrophage), drain (wraith), fire (lava fish), cold (ice beast), blink (phantom).
18:54 < HangedMan> "nasty poison" is great
18:54 <+elliptic> could make a klown-like attack for subtracter snakes with a different selection of flavours, I guess
18:54 < Eronarn> just make them doublebranded draining/antimagic
18:54 <+kilobyte> klowns could get antimagic added to their list
18:55 < HangedMan> Damage: 20(constrict), 20(draining), 20(antimagic), 20(klown)
18:55 < Eronarn> why would they get constrict
18:55 < HangedMan> they're snakes?
18:55 < Eronarn> not all snakes constrict
18:55 < Eronarn> kilobyte: antimagic to klowns sounds good
18:55 < Eronarn> btw, it seems to me like we haven't actually done anything with drain XP in light of the pool changes...?
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19:09 < res> kilobyte: the word is subtractor
19:09 < res> actually, no
19:09 < res> that's just weird dialectical variation, nvm
19:10 < res> (subtractor is apparently what usually gets used with electronics, okay)
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19:54 < blueDave> <+kilobyte> if (attacker->constricting[i] = MHITYOU)
19:54 < blueDave> blush -- my day to day programming language doesn't allow side effects in if statements ;)
19:55 < blueDave> so it doesn't need to double conditional operators
20:00 < res> ??tomb
20:00 < Henzell> tomb[1/7]: Accessed from the Crypt on either the second or third level. Three levels deep, with a golden rune at the bottom. A grand place to die, lots of good company (including Jovan's ghosts), and so very appropriate. Screw not with the sphinxes, for they will SLAY you.
20:04 <+kilobyte> blueDave: no language I know conflates the assignment operator with comparison
20:04 <+kilobyte> even Pascal has := in place of =
20:11 < alefury> damn, due's abyssal monsters sound pretty cool
20:11 < alefury> i just wish i knew what theyre supposed to do
20:12 < alefury> nice tiles too :/
20:15 <+kilobyte> yeah, hard to make nefarious plans without more info
20:16 < blueDave> the language I use is a variant of PL/1, which uses = for both assignment and equals
20:17 < blueDave> :)
20:18 < blueDave> what's the best way of testing if two actors are adjacent?
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20:37 < HangedMan> due said he would work on them over the christmas break once holies are done
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20:45 <+elliptic> blueDave: adjacent(attacker->pos(), defender->pos()) is what melee_attack.cc uses for that
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20:54 < blueDave> ok
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21:23 < HangedMan> minmay's getting messages about a ball python releasing a plant offscreen!
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21:25 <+evilmike> tell him to BR it
21:27 < CIA-112> kilobyte * raca60e93993f /crawl-ref/source/mon-util.cc: Add antimagic to the list of random klown attacks.
21:27 < CIA-112> kilobyte * r4b5f2cf9e93c /crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/abyss.des: Put an abandoned shop in hangedman_abyss_mock_shop (HangedMan).
21:27 < CIA-112> kilobyte * r456a99c6ca89 /crawl-ref/source/ (15 files in 5 dirs): Subtractor snakes, to make Zot less sane.
21:27 < Eronarn> <3 kilobyte
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21:31 < Wensley> ooh, what do those do?
21:32 < HangedMan> they seem to just have klown brand
21:32 < HangedMan> for even more klowning around in zot
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21:34 < CIA-112> kilobyte * r7755d6e14753 /crawl-ref/source/ (mon-data.h mon-enum.h mon-util.cc): Greatly nerf subtractor snakes, give them their own attack type.
21:34 < HangedMan> that was fast
21:36 <+kilobyte> attacks are quite boring, but this is a monster where we can put about anything
21:38 < ZChris13> 7 minutes before you nerfed it
21:38 < ZChris13> Is that a record
21:42 < HangedMan> can subtractor snakes be added to snake zigs
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21:47 < HangedMan> also they should have rElec+++ or heal from electricity attacks like sixfirhies, which would make them fun to fight alongside electric golems
21:47 < Eronarn> i like the idea of them being snakes made from negative energy
21:47 < Eronarn> some kind of undead or elemental thing
21:48 < HangedMan> umbra because it eats away from the light surrounding it
21:48 < HangedMan> heal from other attacks
21:53 < blueDave> fix to disable constriction during reaching attacks at https://gitorious.org/~bluedave/crawl/bluedave-sandbox branch confix1
21:54 < blueDave> dinner now, will look into how to do merge request later 
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21:58 <+elliptic> subtractor snakes look a little weak now IMO
21:58 <+elliptic> putting umbra on them sounds good maybe
21:59 <+kilobyte> blueDave: even after the fix, ASSERT(attk_flavour == AF_REACH || weapon && weapon_reach(*weapon)) in 'melee_attack.cc' at line 4021 failed.
22:00 <+kilobyte> (4am, wimpying off)
22:01 <+kilobyte> elliptic: my intent is flavour rather a monster that is dangerous solo, but you may be right
22:02 <+kilobyte> blueDave: ./crawl -arena '20 naga v 30 octopode delay:0 t:99'
22:02 < Eronarn> has anyone tried snake balance post-constriction
22:02 < Eronarn> i bet it's pretty brutal
22:03 < HangedMan> teleport other seems kind of awkward in conjunction with constriction
22:06 <+Napkin> !tell jeanjacques host mx-ha01.web.de: User has exhausted allowed storage space. Mantis can't send you emails.
22:06 < Henzell> Napkin: OK, I'll let jeanjacques know.
22:06 <+evilmike> Eronarn: I wrote some gameplay feedback on the wiki. Note that I did snake with a wizmode character, but I built it fairly reasonably
22:06 <+evilmike> my opinion is that anacondas are ridiculous right now. Nagas not so much, since they use weapons
22:06 <+evilmike> I think anacondas are a big problem at the moment, too dangerous and too hard to avoid
22:07 <+elliptic> did they get damage reduced at all?
22:07 <+evilmike> it seems to have been increased :P
22:07 <+evilmike>     { {AT_CONSTRICT, AF_CRUSH, 30}, {AT_BITE, AF_PLAIN, 20},
22:08 <+evilmike> they used to just have the crushing attack, now they bite too. I dont know if there's some different formula for the crushing though, maybe its only applied upon constriction?
22:08 <+elliptic> part of the constriction plan involved tweaking a lot of monsters... decreasing regular damage on a few that gained constriction, and removing teleother from the nagas
22:08 <+evilmike> what I wrote on the wiki recommends making anacondas less damaging, making nagas less likely to have weapons and nerfing krakens, as a start
22:09 <+evilmike> ball pythons and tentacled monstrosities seem ok though
22:09 < HangedMan> ...both things the player can get, hmm
22:09 <+elliptic> whether a naga has a weapon shouldn't affect their chance of constriction
22:09 <+elliptic> if it does, that's a bug
22:10 < HangedMan> it was a bit awkward to hover around the power required for ball pythons much, but tentacled monstrosities constricting might make XXX more interesting
22:10 < Eronarn> anacondas really don't need to be speed (really fast)
22:11 < Eronarn> that made sense when they were just boring physical damage
22:11 < HangedMan> boring big physical damage
22:12 <+evilmike> oh yeah, I'm wrong about nagas, I just noticed them constricting more when I changed them to be unarmed. I was wrong about that though
22:12 <+evilmike> just a bad case of confirmation bias
22:17 <+evilmike> Also doesn't help that I hastily rewrote everything. Anyway, that reminds me of another issue - it seems like you can escape constriction from an anaconda, and then have it move and constrict you again. When playing it looks more like you're "dragging" it 
22:17 <+evilmike> although you get the "you escape the anaconda's grasp" message
22:17 < blueDave> because constriction is limited to things equal or smaller, anaconda needed a bite to be dangerous to the bigger species
22:18 < HangedMan> is it equal to naga/centaur or smaller?
22:18 < Eronarn> blueDave: the way i solved this with forest wyrms is to make them trample, and if they can't trample
22:18 < Eronarn> instead the attack becomes a bite
22:18 <+elliptic> bluedave: what precisely does the 30 in the {AT_CONSTRICT, AF_CRUSH, 30} affect? chance of constricting succeeding?
22:18 < Eronarn> because having two attacks is bad
22:19 < Eronarn> though unfortunately my way of doing it was hack-ish, a mroe general solution would be better
22:19 < blueDave> elliptic -- not used, it wasn't in the formula
22:19 <+elliptic> oh, okay
22:19 < blueDave> I thought of doing the bite only if not constrict thing, wasn't sure how though
22:20 < blueDave> that would be a good way to tone it down back to what it was before
22:20 <+elliptic> that should be changed somehow to be less misleading to people reading the source (including gretell)
22:20 < Eronarn> yeah there's no way to do it stock. i think mine might've only even changed the verbs and not the damage type
22:20 <+elliptic> like, change all the 30s to 0s
22:20 < Eronarn> elliptic: what about constrict = 0 in defs, and print constrict as = to HD (iirc this is the most important part in the monster formula)
22:21 < Eronarn> or if there's a convenient constriction value including other monster stats use that as the constriction 'damage'
22:21 < Eronarn> printing 0 will just confuse people, for sure
22:21 < blueDave> initial damage = (HD + 1) / 2
22:21 < blueDave> damage increase = d(duration)
22:21 <+elliptic> well, I care more about what is in mon-data.h than what gretell prints :)
22:22 < blueDave> and then modified by player ac
22:22 < HangedMan> the bots need to be pushed forward anyway
22:22 < Eronarn> 0 is fine for mon-data, i'm just concerned about ##crawl's limited cognitive resources
22:24 <+elliptic> printing the initial damage of (HD + 1)/2 would be reasonable, I guess
22:26 < CIA-112> elliptic * r073c87c491ce /crawl-ref/ (13 files in 3 dirs): Count various types of actions.
22:27 < Eronarn> ooh cool
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--- Log closed Sat Dec 24 00:00:16 2011