--- Log opened Thu Dec 15 00:00:04 2011
00:40 <+kilobyte> |amethyst: why do we even have a split between various abominations?
00:40 < Henzell> kilobyte: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them.
00:40 <+kilobyte> the whole demonic/undead thing makes no sense
00:41 <+kilobyte> SamB: for includes, I merely enabled parts of what tile builds do... your concern about headers being included everywhere apply to tile builds just the same
00:41 <+SamB> kilobyte: yeah, they do
00:42 <+SamB> but my concerns were mostly ill-founded
00:43 <+evilmike> it would be good if all abominations were one or the other. They've always hat this weird aspect to them. Although, I THINK the only undead ones were from twisted res (which makes it funny how demonic abominations spawn in crypt)
00:43 <+kilobyte> tile-based parts of the makefile are pretty broken, too... could use some simplifying and fixing
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00:44 <+kilobyte> evilmike: as I understand it, they're supposed to be demonically controlled undead (like zombies are mindless automatons)
00:45 <+kilobyte> but this part of theme makes no sense in general :p
00:45 <+evilmike> one thing is, if they are made demonic then I dont think kiku will give piety for your abomination's kills
00:45 <+kilobyte> following D&D rules on souls is one option
00:45 <+evilmike> on the other hand, if they are made undead, then kiku will give piety for summon horrible things
00:46 <+evilmike> not that anyone casts SHT with kiku
00:46 <+kilobyte> but then, souls are a silly concept anyway
00:47 <+evilmike> also SHT can't be made summ/necromancy, because it would overlap too much with haunt
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00:47 <+kilobyte> I quite insist on all abominations obeying the same rules
00:47 <+kilobyte> and this implies that ones you get from Twisted Res should act the same as ones from SHT
00:48 <+evilmike> yeah consistency is good here. Maybe change the kiku piety rules instead?
00:48 < st_> like Eronarn said, why do we need to have them be the same monster?
00:48 < st_> change demonic or undead Xs to something else
00:48 <+kilobyte> is there any gain in having them be not?
00:48 <+evilmike> different monsters would also be a solution, yeah
00:49 <+kilobyte> I mean, is there any reason to separate them?
00:49 <+evilmike> allows twisted res and summon horrible things to summon different types of monsters
00:49 <+kilobyte> because the only concern raised so far is Kiku giving piety for a spell you're unlikely to use with her
00:50 < st_> because one is something you animate from corpses and another is something you summon from the abyss
00:50 < st_> not related
00:50 <+evilmike> well, if SHT summons undead enemies, then why isn't it a necromancy spell?
00:50 <+kilobyte> pre-animated corpses from the Abyss
00:50 <+kilobyte> Recall works on undead and is not necromancy either
00:51 <+evilmike> yeah, it's easy enough to come up with reasons. This type of mild inconsistency is better than the current one
00:52 <+kilobyte> I wonder about a dual holiness
00:53 <+evilmike> holiness is already a bit complicated
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00:58 <+kilobyte> looks like demonic+undead is strictly the same as undead alone, except for a minor bug I just fixed
00:59 <+kilobyte> (Lugonu accepted living, undead and demon kills by living or demonic pets, but only living and undead kills by undead pets)
01:08 < G-Flex> I thought one or two gods accepted demonic kills but not specifically undead kills
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06:56 < CIA-54> kilobyte * rc5dc6f78f639 /crawl-ref/source/itemname.cc: Mark potions/rings of invis as non-temp useless only if you're a TSOite.
06:57 < CIA-54> kilobyte * r02dd79e013bd /crawl-ref/source/godconduct.cc: Fix an inconsistency in Lugonu pet kills.
06:57 < CIA-54> kilobyte * rdbbbbcd452cb /crawl-ref/source/ (10 files in 3 dirs): Stop racial segregation of abominations.
07:02 <+kilobyte> due: there are no holy bats in the bat cave.  Would fixing this dire error be worth adding a whole new monster (can't redefine holiness)?
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07:08 < alefury> also no demon bats. no lightning bats. no water bats. no mutating bats. arent there enough bats in the batcave already?
07:19 <+kilobyte> never enough!
07:19 <+kilobyte> so, what with Terence?  Should we rip away his spine and give him constriction?
07:20 <+evilmike> There are no naga uniques (although making him a a naga would mean giving him poison spit too)
07:20 <+evilmike> I'm not sure what else terence could be if he gets constriction, though
07:23 <+kilobyte> uhm... nagas do have spines :p
07:25 <+evilmike> oh. Yeah sorry, that's what happens when I don't sleep. Forgot octopodes get to constrict
07:26 <+kilobyte> if you don't sleep, what about cranking out a holy Pan level?
07:26 <+kilobyte> the feature freeze is supposed to be today, but neither constriction nor level_type are merged yet
07:27 <+kilobyte> but I doubt there's more than a couple of days or so until then
07:29 <+evilmike> one thing about the holy pan level... I cannot get encompass vaults to generate in pan (aside from &L)
07:29 <+evilmike> large vaults also have issues. Not sure why
07:29 <+evilmike> just get a lot of "bad vault place"
07:29 <+edlothiol> kilobyte: any further comments on tiles-monster-info before I merge?
07:31 <+kilobyte> yeah, "sorry for not waiting for the merge while messing with tile data in console" :p
07:34 < CIA-54> evilmike * rddd98b694ead /crawl-ref/source/dat/des/portals/ziggurat.des: Fix ziggurat_pillar_centre_c.
07:34 <+kilobyte> could you explain which of structures matter during a console game, and which are _losslessly_ recreated from existing data?
07:34 <+kilobyte> I'm pretty confused here :(
07:36 <+edlothiol> kilobyte: no conflicts anyway ;)
07:37 <+edlothiol> with my branch, tile_bk_fg and tile_bk_bg are recreated from map_knowledge (previously, they were saved)
07:37 <+edlothiol> tile_bg and tile_fg were never saved and are also unnecessary
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07:38 <+kilobyte> ah, so I was wrong about the latter two
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07:44 < CIA-54> edlothiol * rf1b6bbb821a1 /crawl-ref/source/ (29 files): Merge branch 'tiles-monster-info'
07:44 < CIA-54> edlothiol * ra0f54f139cf4 /crawl-ref/source/show.cc: Add the cloud override tile to cloud_info in console games, too.
07:44 < CIA-54> edlothiol * re7813fe726ea /crawl-ref/source/show.cc: Fix console compilation.
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08:04 < Eronarn> i'm confused, what was the actual action taken to fix aboms
08:08 < CIA-54> kilobyte * r4d13d898c8ba /crawl-ref/source/mon-util.cc: Forbid small lightcyan aboms, not big ones -- octopodes are 'x'.
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08:55 <@dpeg> why is Keskitalo missing his + ?
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09:00 < CIA-54> edlothiol * r113f6a588871 /crawl-ref/source/ (3 files in 3 dirs): Add Omndra's fire mage title screen.
09:05 < alefury> dpeg: doesnt seem to be identified
09:06 < alefury> so it could be anyone
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09:40 <+kilobyte> it's a spy impersonating Eino, he wants to learn our hidden secrets and the details of our plan to take over the world!
09:40 <+kilobyte> er, wait... you didn't hear that, there is no plan
09:46 < alefury> http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/12/15/potions-and-pitfalls-my-year-in-roguelikes/
09:47 < alefury> dcss is mentioned somewhere around the middle
09:47 < alefury> very positively, too, but only shortly
09:48 < alefury> also of note: rps is about as big as pc only gaming news sites can get
09:50 <+evilmike> cool
09:50 <+evilmike> can you add that to the "press" page on the wiki?
09:53 <@dpeg> !seen marvinpa
09:53 < Henzell> I last saw MarvinPA at Thu Dec 15 05:56:12 2011 UTC (8h 57m 2s ago) quitting with message Ping timeout: 252 seconds.
09:54 < alefury> done
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10:02 <@dpeg> alefury: thank you
10:02 <@dpeg> back later
10:03 <+|amethyst> kilobyte:  thanks for the abomination fixes
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10:09 < Henzell> Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.10-a0-2790-g113f6a5 (32)
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10:30 < HughBorg> So I'm having trouble working with monsters in a lua script. If I were to get a monster using the moninf "get_monster_at" command, am I restricted by the limitations of the l_moninf.cc file, or is there anyway to also call functions from l_mons.cc?
10:35 < blueDave> make: *** No rule to make target `crawl', needed by `all'.  Stop.
10:38 <+|amethyst> blueDave:  is that the only error?  does it manage to do anything before that?
10:38 < blueDave> it builds a bunch of contrib and tiles stuff, then gives that message
10:39 <+|amethyst> GNU make?
10:39 < blueDave> I just pulled the current -- using msysgit
10:41 <+|amethyst> hm
10:41 < alefury> evilmike: your "secrets" wiki entry should probably be linked from or added to the vault making documentation if nobody objects to making it a policy for future vaults
10:42 <+|amethyst> blueDave:  oh, I think I see what's happening... I broke it :)
10:42 <+evilmike> alefury: well, a summary of it could be, at least
10:42 <+evilmike> half of that page is just me justifying my opinions
10:43 < blueDave> GAME gets changed later in the file, right?  ;)
10:43 <+|amethyst> yup
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10:45 <+|amethyst> blueDave:  does it work if you move the   all: greet $(GAME) docs webserver    line just before  LIBPCRE :=   ?
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10:48 < blueDave> checking that now, after a clean
10:50 < blueDave> yes, that works
10:50 <+|amethyst> great
10:50 < blueDave> tried to get the greet thing to come out first?
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10:50 <+|amethyst> I have no clue what's happening there
10:51 <+|amethyst> I moved the line because an early patch introduced another rule ahead of the all: rule
10:51 <+|amethyst> But I moved it to early
10:51 <+|amethyst> s/to/too/
10:52 < CIA-54> |amethyst * r6b42b93b1968 /crawl-ref/source/Makefile: Really unbreak Makefile on Windows.
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10:57 < blueDave> thanks
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11:10 < alefury> is it okay to add this to the missing tiles list on the wiki?
11:10 < alefury>       * Octopode zombies. They currently use the placeholder monster tile.
11:10 < alefury>       * Disturbances caused by invisible monsters. These also currently use the placeholder monster tile. It is somewhat fitting, but could be 
11:10 < alefury> ... improved.
11:10 <+evilmike> isn't the placeholder monster tile a "?"
11:11 < alefury> no, its a white vaguely humanoid shape
11:11 < alefury> ? is for everything else
11:12 < alefury> also, someone should probably set up an implementable for tiles that are still missing for 0.10
11:12 < alefury> its starting to get time to wrap things up :)
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11:16 < alefury> anyway, added those lines, feel free to edit.
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11:38 < CIA-54> dolorous * r34022b0d9893 /crawl-ref/source/mon-util.cc: Add minor cosmetic fix.
11:44 < CIA-54> dolorous * r8df1153f78fc /crawl-ref/source/mon-util.cc: In _serpent_of_hell_color(), remove redundant breaks, and fix spelling.
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12:38 <+evilmike> !tell kilobyte I assembled the holy pan things I've been working on into a coherent vault, finally. Encompass vaults still don't work in pan though. Should I push it with WEIGHT: 0 for now?
12:38 < Henzell> evilmike: OK, I'll let kilobyte know.
12:40 <+edlothiol> evilmike: having the vault there would probably be a good incentive for someone to fix that ;)
12:40 <+evilmike> that's what I was thinking
12:41 <+edlothiol> (also, I'm curious)
12:41 <@dpeg> me too!
12:41 <+evilmike> it's a bit rough... it's very hard to design something when almost all the monsters are untested
12:42 <+evilmike> I'm also still worried about balance (free loot for good gods, death for mummies)
12:42 <@dpeg> hm, what about a good number of preplaced Pan portals?
12:43 <+evilmike> I have 3 in a safe to teleport room and one randomly placed
12:44 <@dpeg> are there fixed arrival spots in Pan levels?
12:45 <+evilmike> nope, you're dumped into it randomly
12:45 < alefury> regarding free loot for good gods: wasnt that why all the loot should be held by monsters?
12:45 <+evilmike> alright, I pushed it. Note that if you place it with &L the level will be rather sparsely populated. The best thing to do would be to give it a line like PLACE: D:26 and try it that way
12:46 <+evilmike> alefury: that's the first time I heard that idea.
12:46 < CIA-54> evilmike * r573a5777bf52 /crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/pan.des: A holy pan level (currently disabled).
12:46 < alefury> kilobyte mentioned it yesterday again, and it was brought up in previous discussions
12:46 < alefury> broken logging of course doesnt help
12:46 <+evilmike> yeah :/
12:47 <+evilmike> oh yeah, if you test the vault by using PLACE, stick some stairs in it
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12:53 <+evilmike> it's going to need to be edited anyway. There's no way I got the balance right on the first try. It either has too many or too few enemies, and I have no idea how hard a silver star is
12:54 <+evilmike> just a guess from the stats they have
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12:56 < alefury> afaik its supposed to be comparable to an orb of fire, but i dont believe it has been tested in practice
12:58 <+MarvinPA> evilmike: i like the look of your vault suggestions on the secrets wiki page
12:58 < Henzell> MarvinPA: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them.
12:59 <+evilmike> alefury: the hard thing to judge about silver stars is that they depend on how mutated you are
12:59 <+MarvinPA> seems good for the lair vaults in particular
13:02 <+evilmike> there are a number of portal vaults that offend too. I singled out volcanos, but bailey_axe_3 is another example of a bad secret door, I think
13:03 <+MarvinPA> volcanos are the ones that stick out in my memory, yeah
13:03 <+MarvinPA> !vault bailey_axe_3
13:03 < Henzell> Lines pasted to http://paste.scsys.co.uk/167547
13:04 <+MarvinPA> hm, that one usually the monsters wander through it anyway
13:04 <+MarvinPA> but i guess not always
13:04 <+evilmike> "This page is in Galacian. Would you like to translate it?"
13:04 <+evilmike> google chrome is confused
13:05 <+evilmike> sorry make that Galician
13:09 <+MarvinPA> heh yeah, i get that too
13:33 < alefury> is there a way to block google text ads in chrome by now?
13:34 < alefury> im thinking about giving it another try, because FF reported 700 MB of memory usage yesterday...
13:34 < ais523> alefury: note that browsers should be using memory if it's not being used for anything else
13:35 < ais523> also, that Chrome uses more memory than Firefox, for much the same reason
13:36 < alefury> hm, true i guess. its just that i had barely 50 tabs open, and i think 700MB is a bit excessive
13:42 <+evilmike> chrome adblock works
13:42 <+evilmike> it's not as good as the firefox one though
13:43 < alefury> i believe its pretty much the same as the firefox one, except theyre not allowed to block google ads?
13:43 < Zannick> it blocks google ads for me
13:43 <+evilmike> from what I understand, the firefox blocks ads before they are loaded, while the chrome one loads them but doesnt display them
13:43 < Zannick> i don't see why that wouldn't be allowed
13:43 <+evilmike> and yeah I see no google ads either
13:44 < alefury> oh, then they changed that at some much earlier point i guess
13:44 <+evilmike> no ads on youtube either, aside from ones that play beofre certain videos
13:44 < alefury> i remember reading about it
13:45 < alefury> Zannick: it wouldnt be allowed because google develops chrome, and google wants people to see their ads because thats how they make money
13:45 < Zannick> i don't think google develops chrome adblock
13:45 <+evilmike> unless there's something really nice with chrome that you aren't getting in firefox, I see no point in switching though. You might just be having a case of "the grass is greener on the other side"
13:46 < alefury> mh, i keep hearing its so much faster...
13:46 < Zannick> and iirc google ads aren't based on impressions but clicks
13:46 < alefury> Zannick: cant click on what you cant see
13:46 <+evilmike> chrome was certainly faster (and more stable) than FF when I switched to it, but that was quite a while ago
13:46 < Zannick> alefury: most people who install an adblocker won't click anyway
13:46 <+evilmike> now I just keep using it because FF hasn't been able to win me back yet
13:47 < alefury> firefox still has stability issues sometimes
13:47 <+evilmike> the thing which really drove me away was how one tab would crash and bring the whole browser down
13:47 < alefury> stuff like sandboxing scripts etc just seems like a good idea
13:47 <+MarvinPA> heh, that's exactly what i was about to mention, yeah
13:47 <+MarvinPA> chrome handles that nicely
13:52 <+evilmike> i was wondering about what browser usage shares are these days and came across this map: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/13/Countries_by_most_used_web_browser.png . Orange is firefox. Red is... opera
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14:16 < CIA-54> evilmike * r2c5bfce81f50 /crawl-ref/source/itemprop.cc: Buff great maces to 18 damage.
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14:32 < CIA-54> elliptic * r6f303ada91a9 /crawl-ref/source/itemprop.cc: Tweak scimitars.
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15:00 <+SamB> evilmike: you forgot to not mention the secret ettin buff in your commit message ...
15:01 <+evilmike> the people who read commit messages are allowed to know secrets
15:01 <+SamB> |amethyst: I think we could begin the makefile with "all:" and not worry about where we actually give the dependency-bearing rule for all...
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15:53 < alefury> can someone merge constriction already? or what are you guys waiting for?
16:02 < CIA-54> evilmike * r286219bdf9fe /crawl-ref/source/dat/des/altar/overflow.des: Modifications to evilmike_ruin_ashenzari.
16:14 <+edlothiol> can anyone reproduce #5055 (Mennas's long description doesn't show up with x+v)?
16:15 ۰۰-- rwbarton [~rwbarton@ec2-50-16-156-120.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined ##crawl-dev
16:15 <+|amethyst> rwbarton:  nobody can reproduce your bug 5055... could you check a few things?
16:15 < rwbarton> sure
16:15 <+|amethyst> first, did you set SAVE_DIR_PATH with your fresh build?
16:16 < rwbarton> hmm, not as far as I know
16:16 <+|amethyst> second, do you have the $CRAWL_DIR environment variable set?
16:16 < rwbarton> I mean I listed all the steps I used, didn't edit any files
16:16 < rwbarton> "env | grep CRAWL" doesn't produce anything
16:16 <+|amethyst> hm
16:17 < rwbarton> I have a .crawlrc, maybe that matters somehow? will try moving it away
16:17 <+|amethyst> hm
16:17 <+|amethyst> it shouldn't, but sure
16:17 < rwbarton> nope, no effect
16:17 <+|amethyst> what does ./crawl --version say about the flags?
16:17 < rwbarton> CLFAGS: -O0 -ggdb -pipe -Wall -Wundef -Wno-array-bounds -Wno-parentheses -Wno-unused-parameter -Wwrite-strings -Wshadow -Icontrib/install/i486-linux-gnu/include -Iutil -I. -I/usr/include/lua5.1 -I/usr/include -I/usr/include/ncursesw -DFULLDEBUG -DDEBUG -DWIZARD -DASSERTS -DCLUA_BINDINGS
16:18 <+|amethyst> hm, -DSAVE_DIR_PATH would have shown up there if it got set somehow
16:18 < rwbarton> this is pretty weird, it might be easier for me to just trace it or run it under gdb if someone knows what part of the code I should be looking at
16:19 <+|amethyst> try stracing it and see where it opens saves/db/descriptions.db
16:19 <+|amethyst> what path it's using
16:20 <+|amethyst> I suspect you have an old file there, maybe with a date in the future
16:20 <+|amethyst> in particular, if it's not referring to saves/ inside your build directory
16:20 < rwbarton> open("/tmp/crawl/crawl-ref/source/saves/db/descriptions.db", O_RDONLY|O_LARGEFILE) = 3
16:20 <+|amethyst> that's right...
16:21 < rwbarton> i could rm -rf saves/db or whatever
16:21 <+|amethyst> and the reference to dat/descript/monsters.txt is also in that directory?
16:22 < rwbarton> yeah, it is stat-ing it only in this case
16:22 < rwbarton> stat64("/tmp/crawl/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/monsters.txt", {st_mode=S_IFREG|06
16:22 < rwbarton> 44, st_size=64426, ...}) = 0
16:22 <+|amethyst> that's right
16:22 <+|amethyst> hm
16:22 <+edlothiol> also, try setting a breakpoint on get_monster_db_desc and checking what db_name it uses?
16:22 <+|amethyst> what does  md5sum /tmp/crawl/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/monsters.txt  say?
16:23 < rwbarton> 7982458d4f482c24855cff96d5f9b6c3  /tmp/crawl/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/monsters.txt
16:23 <+|amethyst> that's right for dc3ddd6
16:23 <+|amethyst> maybe try what edlothiol says
16:24 < rwbarton> (gdb) print db_name
16:24 < rwbarton> $2 = {static npos = 4294967295,  _M_dataplus = {<std::allocator<char>> = {<__gnu_cxx::new_allocator<char>> = {<No data fields>}, <No data fields>}, _M_p = 0xb7eb4680 ""}}
16:24 <+|amethyst> empty string
16:24 < rwbarton> um, is this an empty string? I don't speak gdb/C++
16:24 <+|amethyst> hm
16:24 < rwbarton> is that normal?
16:24 <+|amethyst> verifying, but I think not
16:25 < rwbarton> oh sorry
16:25 < rwbarton> i need to step a bit first
16:26 <+|amethyst> ah, yes
16:27 < rwbarton> what's the command that's like step but doesn't descend into function calls?
16:27 <+edlothiol> next
16:27 <+edlothiol> (I believe, I just type n)
16:27 < rwbarton> okay
16:28 < rwbarton> here we are after the assignment, (gdb) print db_name
16:28 < rwbarton> $13 = {static npos = 4294967295,  _M_dataplus = {<std::allocator<char>> = {<__gnu_cxx::new_allocator<char>> = {<No data fields>}, <No data fields>}, _M_p = 0x8f96fc4 "Mennas"}}
16:28 <+|amethyst> which is right
16:28 <+edlothiol> so... try stepping into getLongDescription()
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16:30 < rwbarton> sorry, door
16:32 < rwbarton> okay, well it is looking up "mennas"...
16:32 <+|amethyst> oh really?
16:33 <+|amethyst> should be "Mennas"
16:33 < rwbarton> we're in getLongDescription right?
16:34 <+|amethyst> yes, key should be "Mennas" with a capital M
16:34 <+edlothiol> it probably got lowercased by _query_database?
16:34 <+|amethyst> hm
16:34 < rwbarton> yes
16:34 <+|amethyst> it works either way though
16:34 < rwbarton> I think it is probably supposed to work that way
16:34 < rwbarton> so, I will continue
16:35 < rwbarton> curious
16:36 < rwbarton> well it found the text
16:36 <+|amethyst> what's your terminal size?
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16:36 < rwbarton> something random but I just tried in 80x24 also
16:37 < rwbarton> same result
16:38 <+|amethyst> does ?/MMennas   do the same thing, btw?
16:38 < rwbarton> no
16:38 < rwbarton> ?/M Mennas gives me "A Mennas." and then the description of Mennas
16:38 <+|amethyst> do you actually get the description there?
16:38 <+|amethyst> hm
16:39 < rwbarton> hmmmm
16:39 <+|amethyst> The "A Mennas." thing was fixed in a later commit
16:39 <+|amethyst> but that's strange
16:39 < rwbarton> okay
16:39 ۰۰-- MarvinPA [~MarvinPA@85.210.107.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
16:39 <+|amethyst> they're both, presumably, using the same db_name
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16:40 < rwbarton> anyways getLongDescription seems to have returned the description correctly
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16:44 < rwbarton> is there a way to see what text is in an ostringstream?
16:44 <+|amethyst> p blah.str()
16:45 <+edlothiol> ?/M directly uses getLongDescription without describe_monsters
16:45 <+edlothiol> er, without get_monster_db_desc
16:45 < rwbarton> i should probably also try with only 'make wizard' and not 'make debug'
16:45 < rwbarton> since there is a lot of code here in #ifdef DEBUG_DIAGNOSTICS or whatever it was
16:47 < rwbarton> oh
16:47 < rwbarton> okay, apparently the issue is that there are 28 lines of output and my terminal is only 27 lines tall... and it copes with this by printing nothing, apparently :/
16:48 < rwbarton> or just the first line rather
16:48 <+|amethyst> aha
16:48 <+|amethyst> I can reproduce it now
16:48 <+edlothiol> ah
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16:48 <+|amethyst> before I was testing without FULLDEBUG so it wasn't that long
16:48 <+|amethyst> thanks!
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16:49 < rwbarton> yup
16:50 < rwbarton> I guess I was vaguely aware of this kind of issue
16:50 <+edlothiol> I tested with FULLDEBUG... don't remember the debug spew, perhaps I just did ?/M :/
16:51 < rwbarton> like how ?/G 1 just shows "The Shining One won't accept worship from undead or evil beings."
16:51 < rwbarton> ... wow that is a lot of text when I enlarge my terminal.
16:52 <+|amethyst> // Maybe skip the body if body + title would be too many lines.
16:53 <+|amethyst> in process_description() in process_desc.h
16:54 <+|amethyst> I guess if that's made to use a scroller instead...
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17:02 < CIA-54> dolorous * r8b9a73b867c3 /crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: Give octopodes their own genus instead of the kraken genus.
17:19 < alefury> i want to make the msysgit shell start and automatically switch to a certain folder
17:20 < alefury> any idea how i can do that? i mean its probably pretty simple, but i cant find a decent list of parameters i can pass to sh.exe
17:21 < alefury> or rather, sh --help does stuff, but doesnt tell me what i want to know
17:22 < alefury> msysgit doesnt seem to come with man pages :(
17:25 <+|amethyst> sh doesn't take any such parameters
17:25 <+|amethyst> simplest would be to run   sh -c 'cd /blah/blah; exec sh'
17:25 <+|amethyst> i.e. a non-interactive shell that changes directories then launches an interactive shell
17:26 < ais523> and the use of exec means that there's only the one process involved
17:26 < ais523> so you don't have to worry about fork time (which is quite a major issue on Windows, because it doesn't have a fork syscall)
17:26 <+|amethyst> yeah, exec means "replace myself with this" rather than "run this and wait for it to finish"
17:29 <+MarvinPA_> alefury: if you have a windows shortcut to it you can just change the "start in" setting to whichever folder you want
17:29 ۰۰-- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA
17:29 <+|amethyst> yeah, that's probably what I'd do
17:29 <+|amethyst> if I used windows
17:30 <+MarvinPA> http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/12/15/potions-and-pitfalls-my-year-in-roguelikes/
17:30 <+MarvinPA> neat article
17:30 <@dpeg> are we getting a trashing?
17:31 <+MarvinPA> not at all! :D
17:31 <@dpeg> blammo!
17:32 <+MarvinPA> although we are doing in the roguelike of the year votes :(
17:32 <+MarvinPA> tome4 and dungeons of dredmor have a big lead
17:33 < jle> Revenge of the mountain dwarves?
17:35 <@dpeg> MarvinPA: hasn't Crawl been a roguelike of the year already?
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17:35 < jle> Was this particular contest ever advertised on the blog? 
17:35 <+MarvinPA> hm, i'm not sure, haven't followed the awards much in the past
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17:36 <@dpeg> let me post something from this dusty usenet
17:36 < jle> I had no idea it existed, but I dutifully voted for DCSS now. :)
17:36 <+MarvinPA> voting only opened a couple of days ago for this year's, i think
17:36 <+MarvinPA> so a blog post sounds like a good idea!
17:36 <@dpeg> What's the prize?
17:36 <@dpeg> Pride. And a sexy logo - if you want one. You can see the winning 2007
17:36 <@dpeg> logo on the Dwarf Fortress links page. Other winners are free to
17:36 <@dpeg> request them, but haven't done so.
17:37 <@dpeg> someone else should do the blog posting... I am not sure many players would follow if I call =)
17:37 <@dpeg> also it'd be a good opportunity to pick up this logo in case we got one (I think so)
17:38 < ais523> dpeg: there's a conspiracy among roguelike developers to stop Dredmor winning
17:38 < ais523> thus, you should all vote TOME
17:38 < HangedMan> " I’ve been playing what is essentially this same game since 1995"
17:38 <+edlothiol> I think DCSS won a few years ago
17:38 <+MarvinPA> looks like crawl came first in 2008, and second in 09/10
17:39 <@dpeg> ais523: what's the problem with DoD winning? Breadth is good!
17:39 < ais523> dpeg: mostly dislike for the game
17:39 <+MarvinPA> Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup had a bumper year in 2008, going from version 0.3.4, released on the 1st of January, through to version 0.4.4, as well as a playable beta of the near-mythical 0.5.0 being available for those brave enough to download it.
17:39 <@dpeg> hehe, I wouldn't care, I don't play game... usually
17:39 < ais523> I think it's a decent game, but I uninstalled it last night, because it's addictive in the MMO sort of way and it ruined my life
17:39 <+MarvinPA> the mists of the distant past! :o
17:39 < ais523> but only temporarily
17:39 < ais523> because I noticed
17:39  * dpeg admits having lost a couple of nights to Kingdom Rush, may Nappy be cursed :)
17:41 <@dpeg> MarvinPA: distant past, eh? Yesterday I listened to Negative Approach for ages, and for some reason this is the record I played daily back when jpeg gave Crawl to me. Whenever I hear the tunes, I am reminded of the mythical thing that Crawl was to me back then
17:41 <@dpeg> *for the first time since ages
17:41 <+|amethyst> edlothiol:  I have a stopgap fix for that (building tiles to test there), by printing as many lines as will fit
17:41 <+MarvinPA> i don't think i'd even heard of crawl back then, heh :P
17:42 <+|amethyst> edlothiol:  making it scrollable would be better but I don't know that code
17:42 <@dpeg> it was half a year or so before DCSS came into existence (my first win was some days after the DCSS 0.1 release)
17:43 < alefury> thanks for the folder changing help further up :)
17:43 < ais523> dpeg: heh, I've won AceHack exactly once, during the tournament
17:43 < ais523> and have speedrun it to the Castle several times to test out the UI
17:43 < ais523> this probably says something about NetHack's balance
17:44 <@dpeg> ais523: 8 years w/o release, as I infer from the helpful souls at r.g.r.n :)
17:44 <@dpeg> but come on, let's wait another one 
17:44 <+edlothiol> |amethyst: making it scrollable is probably not that important, I don't think it will reach the limit if you don't have FULLDEBUG
17:44 < ais523> dpeg: that has nothing to do with balance
17:44 < ais523> although, it's clear that the NetHack devteam have vague ideas of what balance is, but not really how to achieve it
17:44 <@dpeg> ais523: in a sense it has: it means eight years of not balancing
17:45 < ais523> it's like they know about balance in theory, and are trying to balance the game without any experience of it at all
17:45 <@dpeg> Crawl has oodles of inbalanced things but with regular releases we can nerf/buff soon enough
17:45 ۰۰-- Unrodney [~rbot@84-74-150-154.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined ##crawl-dev
17:45 < bhaak> !last_release
17:45 < Unrodney> bhaak: NetHack 3.4.3 was released 8 years and 7 days ago!
17:45 <+|amethyst> edlothiol:  then I'm not going to fix up process_quote() since there's no debug message there
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17:45 <@dpeg> bhaak: <3
17:45 < HangedMan> hah
17:45 < HangedMan> henzell should have that function
17:45 < ais523> bhaak: ready to take over NetHack next year?
17:46 < ais523> hopefully, Ace will be ready by then
17:46 <@dpeg> ais523: one problem is that you should look over the shoulder of at least some players
17:46 < ais523> and then we only need the one more NetHack fork dev for it to work
17:46 <+MarvinPA> and usually you don't know what's unbalanced until someone figures it out and abuses it, which presumably there is plenty of time to do in 8 years :P
17:46 <@dpeg> cannot develop in a vacuum
17:46 < bhaak> ais523: i'm not yet ready to be fossilized :)
17:46 < ais523> dpeg: I try to do that for Ace
17:46 <+edlothiol> |amethyst: ok
17:46 < ais523> people aren't playing it much atm as it hasn't been developed for a while; it's changes that drive activity on forks
17:47 < alefury> not just on forks
17:47 < ais523> quite a few bugs and features have been ironed out and the hands of Ace's playerbase (particularly the infamous but great conflict bug)
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17:47 < bhaak> !last_release dcss
17:47 < Unrodney> bhaak: Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup 0.9.1 was released 3 months and 11 days ago!
17:47 <@dpeg> with big, new roguelikes coming out of the woodworks, the nethack ship may have sailed
17:47 < bhaak> it also nows about the competition :)
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17:48 < HangedMan> gasp
17:48 < ais523> NetHack hasn't ceased to be a good game just because other good games came along, though
17:48 < bhaak> dpeg: Eiche und Sau ;-)
17:49 < ais523> bhaak: umm, translation? I don't recognise either noun, and fear it's an idiom
17:49 <@dpeg> The oak (Eiche) doesn't care if the boar (Sau) grinds itself against it.
17:50 < ais523> ah, OK
17:50 < alefury> ais523: dont worry, im german and also didnt get it
17:50 < bhaak> ais523: it's referencing a german saying. although the oak doesn't stand a chance if somebody with an axe is coming :)
17:50 < ais523> bhaak: unless it's on the Ranger quest :)
17:50 < ais523> (dpeg: in-joke about a badly designed special level in NetHack)
17:51 <@dpeg> ais523: Was stört es die Eiche, wenn sich die Sau an ihr schuppert.
17:51 < ais523> ah, right, that makes more sense
17:52 <@dpeg> "Eiche und Sau" is the same reduction as "kettle and pot"
17:52 < ais523> well, on an entirely different proverb
17:53 <@dpeg> sure
17:53 < ais523> btw, Crawl devs, I latched onto DCSS earlier today when I needed an example of a game with better graphics than Dredmor in a hurry
17:53 < ais523> so well done there
17:53 < bhaak> the current roguelike radio could be interesting:"History and Future of Roguelikes"
17:53 < ais523> (and I mean in the graphics rendering engine as well as the tiles themselves)
17:53 < HangedMan> but there are so many outstanding tiles issuessssssss
17:54 < HangedMan> like draconians
17:54 < ais523> so? at least player dolls react to equipment changes
17:54 < HangedMan> hah
17:54 < ais523> and it's possible to see items on the square directly above a wall
17:54 < HangedMan> also appreciable
17:54 < HangedMan> are there any ideas on how to deal with draconian tiles?
17:55 <+edlothiol> what problem exactly are you referring to, HangedMan?
17:55 < HangedMan> draconian classes are distinguished, tiles-wise, by their body armour
17:55 < HangedMan> guess what draconians can't wear anymore
17:56 <+edlothiol> hm, true
17:57  * dpeg prepares a proposal that draconians are allowed to wear pairs of braces and suspenders.
17:57 < alefury> i pulled the crawl repo, but make crawl doesnt work. needs contribs. i thought they were included?
17:57 < ais523> isn't that some unique's niche?
17:57 < alefury> or just make doesnt work either
17:57 < HangedMan> no draconian has nearly as bad fashion sense as blork does
17:57 <@dpeg> not the suspenders! (garter belts to you Americans)
17:58 < CIA-54> |amethyst * rafe45422f640 /crawl-ref/source/process_desc.h: Truncate descriptions rather than omitting them.
17:58 < HangedMan> what, legs?
17:58 < HangedMan> leggings
17:59 < bhaak> what? you want draconians to look like they were from the 90s?
18:00 <@dpeg> aber nur in Kombination von Strapsen und Hosenträgern!
18:00 <+edlothiol> alefury: did you do git submodule update --init?
18:00 < alefury> nope, thanks
18:01 < bhaak> dpeg: is that your sexual preferences showing? ;-)
18:01 < alefury> maybe that should be added to INSTALL.txt. or git/quickstart.txt. or both.
18:01 <+|amethyst> edlothiol:  it's not 100% right, because it doesn't (and can't) take the toggle_message into account, so the toggle message will overwrite the ellipsis (in console) or be pushed off-screen (in tiles)
18:01 <@dpeg> bhaak: like with the accusation of being drunk, there's no point in denying :)
18:01 <+|amethyst> edlothiol:  I guess one could ensure there is one extra line...
18:02 < ais523> alefury: for people who have the dependencies installed via package manager, that'll bloat their system a lot for no benefit, so it should at least be mentioned when that's a good idea
18:02 <+edlothiol> |amethyst: hmm yeah, not perfect, but I don't know if it would be worth the hassle to make it a real menu... (I'm pretty unfamiliar with the description code, too)
18:02 < bhaak> don't drink and design!
18:03 < ais523> bhaak: you need an Evil Variant, like I have
18:03 < ais523> where you can implement bad ideas and let them die
18:03 < HangedMan> slash'em??
18:04 < bhaak> i don't have time to implement bad ideas, i let the dcss devs and you do it :)
18:06  * dpeg slaps bhaak with a good game
18:07 < bhaak> thanks, but i already played portal 2
18:08 < CIA-54> edlothiol * re3782132eb94 /crawl-ref/source/ (5 files in 2 dirs): Make the X level map use the full window in Webtiles, similar to the console.
18:14 <+MarvinPA> bhaak: i just finished listening to it (roguelike radio, that is)
18:14 <+MarvinPA> predictions of the death of nethack abound :P
18:15 < bhaak> news at 11!
18:15 < ais523> we won't let it die :)
18:15 <@dpeg> MarvinPA: is Crawl mentioned?
18:15 <+MarvinPA> you are mentioned by name, even :)
18:15 <@dpeg> oops
18:15 <+MarvinPA> heh
18:15 <@dpeg> real name even?
18:15 <+MarvinPA> yup
18:15  * dpeg is afraid.
18:16 < bhaak> did they get the pronunciation right?
18:16 < Zannick> wait, nethack is dying?
18:16 <+MarvinPA> in the context of having respect for your vision for the game :)
18:16 < Zannick> haven't they not released anything new since 03?
18:16 <+MarvinPA> and predicting that brogue, tome4 and crawl will be the big roguelikes of next year
18:16 <@dpeg> Germans have problems with it, English speakers are unable to grasp that "oo" in my name is not the "oo" in "boot" :)
18:17 <+MarvinPA> i should really try brogue
18:17 < bhaak> Zannick: a new OSX package :)
18:17 <@dpeg> me too!
18:17 <+MarvinPA> i keep hearing lots of good things about it
18:17 <+MarvinPA> if it's not meant to be "oo" as in "boot" then no, i don't think it was pronounced correctly :P
18:17 <@dpeg> Napkin loves it but my sister wasn't enthusiastic about it at all
18:18 < Zannick> you mean your last name isn't "Peg"? :o
18:18 < Zannick> ;)
18:18 ۰۰-- dpeg is now known as dpig
18:20 < bhaak> dpig: Germans have problems with it? isn't it pronounced like german 'plohk'?
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18:22 <@dpig> bhaak: it is, but you wouldn't know how often I've got 'plock' at the doctors or elsewhere... sometimes they get stuck (not an easy task in a one syllable word). You wonder why, we do have "Boot", "Moos" and "doof" as guidance.
18:24 < bhaak> hehe
18:26 <+|amethyst> dpeg:  Is the name "Plog" more common than "Ploog"?
18:27 < ais523> dpig: I'm not sure if I can pronounce that even with the guidelines
18:27 <@dpig> |amethyst: no, I don't think so
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18:27 < ais523> I can't really get "Boot" except as somewhere between english Boot and German Bôt
18:27 < ais523> umm, I meant Böt
18:27 < ais523> typoed the umlaut, it's easy to do on a UK keyboard
18:28 <@dpig> say "broad" with a sharp t instead of the d and you get a decent "Brot"
18:28 < bhaak> it's just a long o
18:28 <+|amethyst> 'boat'
18:28 <@dpig> yes!
18:28 <@dpig> broad was wrong of course, silly pronunciation :)
18:28 < ais523> bhaak: that could explain my problems; English doesn't have a true long o
18:28 <@dpig> ho ho ho?
18:29 < ais523> dpig: it's pronunced more like an oe by English speakers
18:29 < ais523> possibly incorrectly
18:29 < ais523> I think I can imagine how your name sounds now, anyway
18:29 < ais523> even if not to pronounce it
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18:34 <@dpig> perhaps I'll have to talk it when Jeff interrogates me for RL radio... although my greatest fear is googling my name coughs up Crawl before maths :)
18:34 <+|amethyst> Googling my name gives at least four or five people before me :)
18:34 < Wensley> dpig: how about some more math-centric crawl jokes
18:35 <@dpig> |amethyst: so you're not John Smith!
18:35 <+|amethyst> more like a dozen or two actually
18:35 < bhaak> my name is the first google hit, because i'm on g+ :-)
18:36 <+|amethyst> I found recently there's someone with my name publishing in computer science
18:36 <+|amethyst> I published first, though, so he had to use his middle initials :)
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18:55 < alefury> hm, it seems like msysgit doesnt like being installed to folders with spaces in them
18:55 < alefury> or maybe the crawl makefile isnt equipped to deal with it
18:59 < alefury> http://pastebin.com/5Hf9RC2N
19:00 < bhaak> unix software in general has problem with spaces in the path so that would be not suprising
19:00 < alefury> thats the output when i retry
19:06 < Wensley> alefury: msysgit is notoriously flaky on installation, best to just leave all the defaults be (it tries by default to install in your toplevel c: directory)
19:07 < alefury> ...
19:07 < alefury> another thing that should probably be mentioned in the installation guide / git quickstart
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19:08  * alefury knew exactly why he hesitated so long to try and compile crawl
19:08 < bhaak> it might be easier to install linux than trying to get something to compile on windows :)
19:09 < Wensley> yes, that's why I installed linux :P git is a gateway drug
19:22 < alefury> ill probably try again tomorrow...
19:22 < alefury> good night
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19:54 < CIA-54> edlothiol * r30c49c2f3e14 /crawl-ref/source/webserver/static/style.css: Webtiles: Allow access to the chat while in menus again.
20:05 <+SamB_> you mean that's not already mentioned ?
20:06 <+SamB_> the spaces thing
20:07  * SamB_ could have sworn that was mentioned somewhere -- maybe it was MinGW or MSYS docs?
20:09 <+SamB_> bhaak: I already had MSYS set up since I was using it for stuff at school for some reason ...
20:11 <+SamB_> the trickiest thing I ran into might have been that git.exe needed to be in the PATH to build Crawl -- git.cmd was insufficient
20:15 < Wensley> basically every piece of software that I know that was not made exclusively to run on windows will break if there are spaces in its installation directory
20:15 < Wensley> although I guess msys *was* made exclusively to run on windows
20:15 < Wensley> so not sure what the excuse there is
20:21 ۰۰-- bmh [d8ef2d04@fsf/member/bmh] has joined ##crawl-dev
20:21 < bmh> hi devteam, it's sheepish time for me!
20:22 < bmh> There's a (minor) bug in the RNG. In the assignment to m_lfsr, I made the mistake of ANDing the masked bits with the previous state instead of XORing.
20:22 <+SamB_> Wensley: MSYS is made of components *not* designed to work on Windows
20:23 < bmh> While the generator still passes a non-trivial statistical battery, for the sake of correctness we should patch it.
20:23 <+SamB_> bmh: make sure it passes then, too!
20:24 < bmh> SamB: the generator has a couple of prongs. A generator that runs at a constant rate, and a stream that pseudo-randomly advances one or another generator.
20:24 <+SamB_> bmh: yeah
20:24 < bmh> It's designed so that the linear combination of any two substreams should pass statistical tests.
20:26 < bmh> SamB_: I'll make a patch once I get home
20:27 <+SamB_> speaking of statistical theory, I notice we seem to have that "split the RNG state into two RNG states" thing from Haskell.
20:28 <+SamB_> Which I've heard hasn't really got any actual theory behind it?
20:29 <@dpig> bmh: hi!
20:29 < bmh> SamB_: we have that? I'm pretty sure I didn't write it
20:30 < bmh> dpig: hi. What's with the name?
20:30 <@dpig> ah
20:30 ۰۰-- dpig is now known as dpug
20:30 < bmh> SamB: I found a method for doing it robustly, but it isn't particularly interesting. I have a blog post on it.
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20:31 < bmh> SamB_: http://www.bhickey.net/2011/05/jumping-generators/
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20:31 < bmh> what the devil was that about?
20:31 < HangedMan> had to do with pronouncing things
20:32 < bmh> I never got why dpeg and jpeg used those handles instead of like... dplog
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20:35 <+SamB_> well, jpeg is kinda cool
20:35 <+SamB_> if hard to google
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21:03 < HangedMan> would there be much objection to nightstalker being changed from a scummy, potentially annoying los-shrinkage into a weakened umbra?
21:09 < Eronarn> weakened?
21:09 < Eronarn> that's probably not a good idea - it would be like having different strengths of halos
21:10 < Eronarn> better to have the only form of umbra strength be how large it is, and if necessary, nerf what umbra does
21:10 < HangedMan> yeah that's what I meant
21:11 < Eronarn> it works the same way as haloes so you can have it be different sized except because of how it works that isn't going to be good for balance
21:11 < Eronarn> since being in umbra at all, even if it only covers your tile, = stealth boost and -acc to attacks against you
21:12 < HangedMan> oh, pff
21:13 < Eronarn> that just means that umbra would have to be paired with something else - like make it the third level of a mut
21:15 < Eronarn> it's too bad that there aren't many light-damage attacks in crawl, or else it could work like the ice armor mut does
21:15 < HangedMan> druid sunray, silver stars,
21:16 < Eronarn> i've never seen the former and the latter was just added and is going to be just as rare
21:16 < Eronarn> (there's also zin corona, from recite, but that's player only right now)
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21:35 < bmh> SamB_: https://gist.github.com/1484171 patch
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22:15 <+SamB_> bmh: hmm, that's an awfully short commit message ...
22:21 <+SamB_> hey, that's my luggage combination: http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~lecuyer/myftp/streams00/c/RngStream.pdf
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23:15 < bmh> SamB_: The commit message is 11 times longer than the patch.
23:16 <+SamB_> bmh: not saying much ...
23:16 < bmh> fine...
23:16 <+SamB_> I didn't say you needed to do a longer one, or anything
23:17 < bmh> I'll write an informative one
23:18 <+|amethyst> !lg nogglebeak -tv:<2
23:18 < Sequell> 4638. nogglebeak, XL7 OgHu, T:2886 requested for FooTV.
23:18 <+|amethyst> doh
23:21 < bmh> SamB_: don't commit that patch. I have a headcold and I want to make sure I'm not screwing this one up.
23:22 <+SamB_> okay
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--- Log closed Fri Dec 16 00:00:05 2011