--- Log opened Sat Dec 10 00:00:57 2011
00:05 <+SamB> huh, when do Mf pick up the "very nimble and swift while swimming" trait?
00:10 <+SamB> ??ashenzari
00:10 < Henzell> ashenzari[1/2]: God of divinations, curses and knowledge, new in 0.8. Likes when you wear cursed gear and explore the world. Grants passive divinations, mapping, SInv, Clarity, and an active scrying ability at increasing levels of piety. Allows you to {reskill}. Now provides {ash skill boost}.
00:15 <+|amethyst> SamB:  a few days ago, in 8cfa3b2
00:15 <+SamB> |amethyst: oh, I thought maybe it happened at some XL
00:17 <+|amethyst> they've always had it from level 1
00:17 <+|amethyst> it just got a line in the mutations screen recently
00:17 <+|amethyst> ("always" = as far as I remember)
00:18 <+|amethyst> I've not actually been playing all that long
00:23 <+SamB> hmm, I like this:
00:23 <+SamB>     // the explanation of this 51 vs max_piety of 200 is left as
00:23 <+SamB>     // an exercise to the reader
00:40 < CIA-54> |amethyst * r843efcf063bd /crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: Even more careful ruination.
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00:45 <+SamB> kilobyte: why didn't you just answer hangedman's question a few days back ?
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00:55 < HangedMan> huh?
00:56 <+SamB> HangedMan: about your food vaults
00:56 <+SamB> and nutrition averages and so on
00:56 < HangedMan> I was being really slow in doing that and I was apparently using wrong values from ??food instead of the source for nutrition so I had no idea apparently how to deal with them?
00:57 < HangedMan> I was tweaking them in a bunch of different ways but I can accept what he did and be lazy\
00:58 <+SamB> I'm just asking him why HE didn't do the lazy thing
00:59 < HangedMan> which was delegate it to me?
01:00 < Henzell> Palyth the Thaumaturge (L13 DEWz) ASSERT(t != NON_ENTITY && t < MAX_TRAPS) in 'traps.cc' at line 1098 failed on turn 37591. (Lair:5)
01:02 < Gretell> Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-2646-g843efcf (32)
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01:15 < Gretell> Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-2646-g843efcf
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01:35 <+evilmike> I just quit a game because i didn't want to put up with a labyrinth. Could've solved it, but I decided that I'd have more fun not playing crawl
01:35 <+evilmike> I tend to quit games for small reasons, but still
01:36 <+evilmike> what happened was I got a "xom is getting bored message" and it made me realize that I was also extremely bored :P
01:48 < Zannick> i usually just save and leave
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02:08 < Henzell> Yunor the Frost Mage (L11 NaIE) ASSERT(t != NON_ENTITY && t < MAX_TRAPS) in 'traps.cc' at line 1098 failed on turn 14931. (Lair:2)
02:09 < Henzell> Yunor the Frost Mage (L11 NaIE) ASSERT(t != NON_ENTITY && t < MAX_TRAPS) in 'traps.cc' at line 1098 failed on turn 14931. (Lair:2)
02:09 < Henzell> Yunor the Frost Mage (L11 NaIE) ASSERT(t != NON_ENTITY && t < MAX_TRAPS) in 'traps.cc' at line 1098 failed on turn 14931. (Lair:2)
02:09 < Henzell> Yunor the Frost Mage (L11 NaIE) ASSERT(t != NON_ENTITY && t < MAX_TRAPS) in 'traps.cc' at line 1098 failed on turn 14931. (Lair:2)
02:09 < bmh> that's bad.
02:09 < Henzell> Yunor the Frost Mage (L11 NaIE) ASSERT(t != NON_ENTITY && t < MAX_TRAPS) in 'traps.cc' at line 1098 failed on turn 14931. (Lair:2)
02:09 < Henzell> Yunor the Frost Mage (L11 NaIE) ASSERT(t != NON_ENTITY && t < MAX_TRAPS) in 'traps.cc' at line 1098 failed on turn 14931. (Lair:2)
02:09 < Henzell> Yunor the Frost Mage (L11 NaIE) ASSERT(t != NON_ENTITY && t < MAX_TRAPS) in 'traps.cc' at line 1098 failed on turn 14931. (Lair:2)
02:09 < Henzell> Yunor the Frost Mage (L11 NaIE) ASSERT(t != NON_ENTITY && t < MAX_TRAPS) in 'traps.cc' at line 1098 failed on turn 14931. (Lair:2)
02:09 < Henzell> Yunor the Frost Mage (L11 NaIE) ASSERT(t != NON_ENTITY && t < MAX_TRAPS) in 'traps.cc' at line 1098 failed on turn 14931. (Lair:2)
02:09 < Henzell> Yunor the Frost Mage (L11 NaIE) ASSERT(t != NON_ENTITY && t < MAX_TRAPS) in 'traps.cc' at line 1098 failed on turn 14931. (Lair:2)
02:09 < bmh> and annoying
02:09 < Henzell> Yunor the Frost Mage (L11 NaIE) ASSERT(t != NON_ENTITY && t < MAX_TRAPS) in 'traps.cc' at line 1098 failed on turn 14931. (Lair:2)
02:09 < Henzell> Yunor the Frost Mage (L11 NaIE) ASSERT(t != NON_ENTITY && t < MAX_TRAPS) in 'traps.cc' at line 1098 failed on turn 14931. (Lair:2)
02:09 < Henzell> Yunor the Frost Mage (L11 NaIE) ASSERT(t != NON_ENTITY && t < MAX_TRAPS) in 'traps.cc' at line 1098 failed on turn 14931. (Lair:2)
02:09 < Henzell> Yunor the Frost Mage (L11 NaIE) ASSERT(t != NON_ENTITY && t < MAX_TRAPS) in 'traps.cc' at line 1098 failed on turn 14931. (Lair:2)
02:12 < Zannick> i'm guessing there's a bug
02:13 <+SamB> um, yeah, duh
02:13 <+SamB> there are always bugs ;-P
02:13  * Zannick is helpful
02:13 <+SamB> some of them even crash
02:14 <+SamB> I guess we could have non-bug-related crashes if saves got corrupted due to something on the order of a power failure?
02:14 < bmh> Zannick: off topic... but I finally got my bot in AI to not catch on fire
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02:15 <+SamB> you finally got it to stop touching the stove?
02:15 < Zannick> hooray!
02:15 < bmh> (And can I please add giant scorpion lobsters with a reach attack?)
02:15 <+SamB> only if you bring enough for everybody
02:19 < Zannick> sounds like a new D:1 monster!
02:22 < bmh> Zannick: how about a tier-one demon for D:1? We can offer the players a "teaching moment" 
02:24 <+SamB> what? not even a learning moment?
02:26 < Zannick> sure, a tier 1 demon with an attack that does no damage but puts a shaft under the player
02:27 < bmh> Zannick: that's evil.
02:27 < Zannick> bwahah
02:27 < Zannick> bwahaha *
02:27 < bmh> we *could* make a shaft monster. Moves slowly, nearly unkillable, shafts the player
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02:29 < bmh> we could even give it a clever name like... Shaft Demon
02:29 < Zannick> Holey Demon
02:30 < bmh> ow.
02:30 < Zannick> :D
02:30 < bmh> how would you stop a player from using it as a means of travel?
02:31 < bmh> destroy it like a regular shaft? Make it drop you to D:x+1 on the first travel, D:x+2 on the second, D:zot on the third?
02:32 < Zannick> you mean prevent diving?
02:33 < bmh> yes
02:33 < Zannick> maybe it gains power as it repeatedly shafts you
02:34 < bmh> mutagenic?
02:34 < Zannick> and then the shafts become shaft-portals to the abyss
02:34 < Zannick> or radioactive, that's good, too
02:35 < Zannick> shafting into zot is probably a bad idea
02:35 < bmh> how do we convince someone with commit access to include it?
02:36 < Zannick> >.>
02:38 < bmh> does it actually improve Crawl, or does it amuse us?
02:38 <+evilmike> somehow i dont think that monster would improve crawl
02:39 < bmh> evilmike: I agree. So, can we have giant lobsters?
02:39 <+evilmike> what would the giant lobsters do?
02:39 < bmh> aquatic monster with a reach/grappling attack
02:39 <+evilmike> if it's just a scorpion with reaching, wouldn't a scorpion with reaching make more sense? And if it's an aquatic monster, we already have two turtle monsters that do something like that
02:40 <+evilmike> no grappling though
02:40 < bmh> turtles don't grapple, or you think grappling is a bad idea?
02:40 <+elliptic> !tell kilobyte control undead works through glass currently
02:40 < Henzell> elliptic: OK, I'll let kilobyte know.
02:40 <+evilmike> I'm not sure what grappling is
02:40 <+evilmike> is it constriction?
02:40 < bmh> ??constriction
02:40 < Henzell> constriction[1/1]: http://www.goblinscomic.com/09132011/
02:41 <+evilmike> I just mean that turtles don't grapple. I'm not against the concept of grappling if it does something interesting
02:41 <+evilmike> but I have no idea what that is supposed to be
02:41 < bmh> sorry -- what is constriction? I probably mean the same thing as constriction.
02:41 < bmh> damage + immobility?
02:42 <+evilmike> yes
02:43 < bmh> That is what I meant :)
02:43 <+evilmike> I'm not sure if reaching + constriction is even posible, also
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02:49 <+evilmike> what if fire crabs got the crazy pincer attack you're talking about?
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02:54 < bmh> evilmike: no. Fire crabs are already nasty enough
02:58 < bmh> ??fire crab
02:58 < Henzell> fire crab[1/1]: A red t that breathes flame clouds everywhere. Likes to burn all your scrolls.
03:04 <@due> ./sb end
03:04 <@due> Oops
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03:06 < mikee_> what is the purpose of glass exactly?
03:06 < mikee_> just to see things on the other side?
03:09  * SamB thinks control undead *should* work through glass
03:09 <+SamB> it's only telepathy, right ?
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03:12 < bmh> do grates still block clouds?
03:13 <+SamB> possibly we should brand monsters with reaching weapons ...
03:14 < monqy> brand in what way? brandspace is pretty crowded.
03:14 <+elliptic> SamB: I thought people agreed that listing weapons on the monster list when possible was the correct thing to do about that
03:14 <+SamB> elliptic: oh, is that the thing?
03:14 <+SamB> that would also work
03:15 <+SamB> I just noticed a complaint that checking them all with xv is too tedious on ##crawl, so I thought I might say something ;-)
03:15 <+elliptic> I haven't heard that many complaints, but yeah, it is an issue
03:16 <+elliptic> and it will become more of an issue when other weapons get special stuff, so I don't think special-casing reaching is really worth it
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03:29 < bmh> {dist} would be a nice one to have in the mob list
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03:54 < CIA-54> elliptic * rbd741b0dd7fe /crawl-ref/source/ (dat/lua/autofight.lua l_moninf.cc mon-info.cc mon-info.h): Improve autofight handling of "safe" monsters by checking for firewood instead.
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04:54 < Ragdoll> guys, i am trying to mute the message ´Your purple ugly thing basks in the mutagenic energy from its kin and changes!
04:54 < Ragdoll> ´ and variations of it
04:55 < Ragdoll> but message_colour = mute:Your.* basks in the mutagenic energy from its kin and changes! does not seem to work
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05:00 < Ragdoll> on further inspection, none of my mute´s seems to work
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05:17 < BlastHardcheese> does that need some lua included
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06:00 < Gretell> OSX builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-2647-gbd741b0
06:04 < Gretell> Ragdoll (L16 SESu) ERROR in 'mon-movetarget.cc' at line 109: ZotDef: monster white imp failed to pathfind to (39,34) (the Orb) (D:1 (ZotDef))
06:06 < Gretell> Ragdoll (L17 SESu) ERROR in 'mon-movetarget.cc' at line 109: ZotDef: monster crimson imp failed to pathfind to (39,34) (the Orb) (D:1 (ZotDef))
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06:32 < Henzell> Johan the Conjurer (L11 OpVM) ASSERT(t != NON_ENTITY && t < MAX_TRAPS) in 'traps.cc' at line 1098 failed on turn 10271. (Lair:3)
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06:34 < Johan___> anyone around who can debug a crashing saved game on cao?
06:35 < Johan___> ##crawl
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09:20 < Henzell> minmay the Thaumaturge (L12 MuCK) ASSERT(t != NON_ENTITY && t < MAX_TRAPS) in 'traps.cc' at line 1098 failed on turn 36361. (Lair:7)
09:20 <+elliptic> this crash was fixed, right?
09:20 <+elliptic> CAO just hasn't updated yet?
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09:27 <+elliptic> rax: Pressing 'w' to watch games on CAO currently seems to just hang there... I remember this happened several weeks ago too
09:34 <@rax> uhhhhhh
09:34 < Henzell> rax: You have 3 messages. Use !messages to read them.
09:34 <@rax> oh for god's sake
09:34 <@rax> !messages
09:34 < Henzell> (1/3) |amethyst said (23h 26m 26s ago): Any idea why Ashenzari is down?  Also, possibly, updates
09:34 <@rax> !messages
09:34 < Henzell> (1/2) LordSloth said (10h 1m 50s ago): cao acting a little weird. Its playing just fine, but locks up on trying to spectate
09:34 <@rax> !messages
09:34 < Henzell> (1/1) ktgrey said (10h 1m 21s ago): cao freezes on me at the opening screen (can't login, spectate, quit)
09:35 < mikee_> i like how they sent those within 30 seconds of each other
09:37 <@rax> ...yup I can replicate that
09:38 <@rax> ...what the heck is "dgamelaunch-new" and why are there a hojillion of them running
09:40 <@rax> ...okay a dgamelaunch-new process is being opened anytime someone tries to watch things
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09:47 <@rax> Seriously where is this "dgamelaunch-new" process even _coming from_
09:49 <@rax> I am gonna have to strace a bitch
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09:56 <@rax> ...also the upgrader wedged again, and this time it wasn't cron, it just... stopped
09:56 <@rax> I have no idea if this is related
09:58 <@rax> Trying to make the upgrade finish on the off chance it is related
09:59 <@rax> greensnark logged in last night, that's the only other thing I can think of that would have caused changes
10:00 <@rax> But he's in screen so I can't actually poke at his bash_history to see what he did
10:00 <@rax> sooooooooooooooo
10:05 <@rax> Sent email to greensnark
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10:06 <@rax> I don't have time to spend hours on this right now, it's finals, so, uh, "don't watch on CAO for now"
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10:36 < Henzell> Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.10-a0-2647-gbd741b0 (32)
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11:08 <+SamB> ... so, I haven't discovered just why windows crash-dumping isn't working to files ...
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11:16 < CIA-54> edlothiol * re3f8c6adc96b /crawl-ref/docs/changelog.txt: Changelog update.
11:18 <+SamB> I've determined that freopen() is failing for some reason, but that's hardly surprising, as I don't think there's any other way for us to end up writing the crash dump to the console...
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11:20  * SamB is kind of surprised that you don't have to use special contortions to allow software that calls gets() to build nowadays ...
11:21  * SamB is *not* surprised that POSIX.1-2008 removes the specification for it.
11:25 <+SamB> Huh, POSIX standardizes some GNU extensions as-is? Awesome! I guess they do kind reserve making up their own interface for cases where existing interfaces vary wildly, though, don't they?
11:25 <+|amethyst> in general, they pick something that has been implemented already
11:25 <+SamB> yeah
11:26 <+|amethyst> I guess if the vendors absolutely cannot agree, they might pick something entirely different out of spite :)
11:27 <+SamB> I think they do it not so much out of spite but because the existing interfaces are incompatible with each other, and POSIX wants something that isn't too hard to implement as a wrapper for each platform's existing thing?
11:28 <+SamB> and/or that will serve all the needs served by the existing, incompatible interfaces
11:29 <+SamB> pthreads and posix_spawn come to mind as things where something like that seems to have happened?
11:29 <+|amethyst> yeah
11:29 <+|amethyst> posix_spawn was basically "Windows will never implement fork properly, so give them a standard way to launch processes"
11:30 <+SamB> heh
11:30 <+SamB> that's really the reason for it?
11:30 <+kilobyte> !tell HangedMan my adjustments to food vaults are quick-and-dirty, if you have any ideas for improvement, please say so
11:30 < Henzell> kilobyte: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
11:30 < Henzell> kilobyte: OK, I'll let HangedMan know.
11:31 <+SamB> I didn't know POSIX was trying to help Cygwin users out!
11:31 <+|amethyst> SamB:  not windows, specifically, but:
11:31 <+kilobyte> that'd suggest they want interoperability... Microsoft's behaviour says exactly the opposite
11:31 <+|amethyst> # The posix_spawn() function and its close relation posix_spawnp() have been introduced to overcome the following perceived difficulties with fork(): the fork() function is difficult or impossible to implement without swapping or dynamic address translation.
11:31 <+|amethyst> not cygwin
11:31 <+kilobyte> like the foo() -> foo_s() FUD
11:31 <+|amethyst> Windows itself has a posix layer
11:32 <+SamB> kilobyte: I'm not sure they want the opposite, or that they are just too busy with "supported scenarios" to work on it ...
11:32 <+|amethyst> or, at least, had
11:32 <+SamB> s/that they/if they/
11:32 <+SamB> |amethyst: it still exists
11:32 <+SamB> but it's badly integrated
11:32 <+|amethyst> oh, they just changed the name
11:32 <+SamB> no mixing POSIX and win32
11:32 <+|amethyst> SFU -> SUA
11:33 <+|amethyst> and "It is set to be deprecated after the release of Windows 8."
11:33 <+|amethyst> and removed in Windows 9
11:33 <+SamB> and I have it from quotemstr in #emacs that they've got fork() alright, but that Win32 would be like "WTF!" if you used that syscall in a win32 process
11:33 <+kilobyte> win32 doesn't allow implementing POSIX... but at least the guys Microsoft bought NT from did meant well
11:33 <+SamB> (he's an NT hacker)
11:34 <+SamB> kilobyte: I thought MS made NT themselves?!?
11:34 <+kilobyte> new Cygwin uses directly NT calls rather than win32, so it can have real fork()
11:34 <+SamB> kilobyte: no, it can't.
11:34 <+SamB> not if it wants to allow win32 calls, anyway.
11:34 <+kilobyte> SamB: partially, a good part is a copy of VMS, or a straight reimplementation
11:35 <+SamB> kilobyte: well, sure
11:35 <+|amethyst> Microsoft implemented NT, but they hired people from DEC to do it
11:35 <+SamB> copying ideas is the state of the art, duh
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11:36 <+|amethyst> "He would often show his low opinion by referring to the UNIX process I/O model by reciting "getta byte, getta byte, getta byte byte byte" to the rhythm of the "cavalry charge" finale of Rossini's William Tell Overture"
11:37 <+kilobyte> there is a big problem, though: NT calls are undocumented
11:37 <+SamB> I bet ntdll used to have a somewhat less costly startup sequence...
11:37 <+SamB> kilobyte: yes, that is a problem
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11:39 <+SamB> I can certainly understand win32k calls being undocumented, and there's no reason they should be expected to document the Nt call numbers, either
11:40 <+SamB> and, uh, I guess I can see why they don't document a *few* of the Nt calls, like the VDM-related one(s)
11:41 <+kilobyte> beh, looks like Cygwin still doesn't use NT calls for fork()
11:41 <+SamB> kilobyte: yes, because win32 would be all "WTF!" and die
11:41 <+SamB> Cygwin runs in the win32 subsystem
11:42 <+|amethyst> devastator is supposed to fire every time, right?
11:42 <+SamB> |amethyst: what?
11:42 <+kilobyte> I've read several years ago that this was the primary reason for them dropping support for Win98... but somehow they don't use yet that approach they discussed then
11:42 <+SamB> I'm sure they are using some Nt calls
11:42 <+kilobyte> |amethyst: yeah, if you dont't miss
11:42 <+|amethyst> it's not working :)
11:42 <+kilobyte> |amethyst: it did before the ucc merge, I admit I didn't try it recently
11:43 <+|amethyst> yeah, I think that's it... maybe other unrands as well
11:43 <+kilobyte> it digs deeply into combat code, so it's no wonder it broke
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11:46 < CIA-54> edlothiol tiles-monster-info * r807d532aa0af /crawl-ref/source/tags.cc: Remove unused variables.
11:49 <+|amethyst> oh, it's getting called too early
11:50 <+|amethyst> hm... that can't be all of it though
11:50 < CIA-54> kilobyte * r44efaac9094d /crawl-ref/source/ (command.cc itemname.cc itemname.h items.cc items.h mapdef.cc): Massively speed up reading .des files.
11:50 <+SamB> kilobyte: good idea
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11:50 <+|amethyst> even with pow = 0 it should do some damage
11:50 <+kilobyte> yeah
11:50 <+SamB> that O(n) in item types algorithm was really dumb
11:50 <+kilobyte> (the damage is woefully small, but it should be always >0 )
11:51 <+|amethyst> waiting for a rebuild to see what's going on
11:51 <+|amethyst> I just discovered that FULLDEBUG doesn't imply DEBUG
11:51 <+|amethyst> so I was getting diagnostics but no -g so no line number info
11:51 <+SamB> kilobyte: so I'm contemplating building an msvcrt.dll from (mostly) sources
11:51 <+SamB> just so I can step through freopen
11:56  * SamB wonders what kind of antenna is good for DTV ...
11:56 <+SamB> |amethyst: shouldn't be too long a wait ;-)
11:58 <+SamB> so ... how would I check if the player has *tele already in _equip_jewellery_effect() ?
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12:01 <+SamB> Hmm, is there any reason we can't ID the jewellery base type for an artefact *on that artefact*? Obviously, it wouldn't do for this to result in that type becoming "known", but surely we could still set the flag on the item itself?
12:03 <+kilobyte> might be a good idea
12:04 <+SamB> kilobyte: oh, do we really need to restrict auto-ID of =SInv to cases where only one unIDed ring is worn?
12:04 <+kilobyte> you don't know which of the rings caused that
12:04 <+SamB> I figure it would be easy for the PC to jiggle each ring on/off really quick to check ...
12:04 <+kilobyte> hmm, true...
12:05 <+SamB> though, I do wonder about artefacts
12:06 <+|amethyst> oh, duh, _DEVASTATOR_melee_effect has  if (dam)  so it does depend on some damage being done
12:06 <+|amethyst> and that's not happening because it's firing far too early
12:08 <+kilobyte> could be done at brand time
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12:09 < wcunning> is there any interest in releasing crawl on Desura?
12:09 < wcunning> http://www.desura.com/about
12:10 < wcunning> it's effectively an open-source/indie games version of steam that has linux support
12:12 <+kilobyte> wcunning: never heard of that.  Being "a version of stream" means it's a rootkit, right? :p
12:13 <+kilobyte> having Crawl builds there can't hurt
12:13 < wcunning> I'm not sure what it would take to build crawl for it
12:14 < wcunning> I'm pretty new to the concept of game distribution systems
12:14 < wcunning> but I'd love to see something like that happen
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12:20 <+SamB> Presumably all it would take is a way to build crawl packages that it can understand how to install and run?
12:21 <+SamB> trickiest thing could be getting the Console version to work, if that doesn't already have a facility for starting a terminal emulator for games that need one
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12:24 < wcunning> I'm unsure if it has a way to start the console version directly
12:25 < wcunning> but it can manage the installation of such 
12:25 < wcunning> and then you can run it from outside Desura
12:25 < wcunning> just like you would have if you'd installed it yourself
12:27 <+SamB> how's it do that ?
12:27 <+SamB> does it actually need root, then?
12:28 < wcunning> no
12:28 < wcunning> somehow, magically?
12:28 <+SamB> so, you have to have already added something under $HOME to $PATH then?
12:28 < wcunning> ah, no
12:29 < wcunning> you have to go to where the games are 
12:29 <+SamB> oh, right
12:29 < wcunning> and run the executable
12:29 <+SamB> like you'd do if you *haven't* actually installed, I see
12:29 < wcunning> yes
12:29 < wcunning> I meant installed=compiled&&runable
12:30 <+SamB> yeah, that's how I usually do it myself, since I'm normally running something I recently compiled ...
12:30 < wcunning> yep
12:30 <+SamB> but when you said "installed", I was thinking more like "sudo apt-get install crawl"
12:30 <+SamB> :-)
12:30 < ghallberg> make --installed :)
12:31 < wcunning> so, my personal issue is that getting things like crawl or dwarf fortress up and runnable is a pain in the ass when you're not running Ubuntu, since no one seems interested in supporting Fedora or openSUSE or suchlike
12:31 <+SamB> wcunning: huh.
12:31 < ghallberg> Works fine in arch...
12:31 <+SamB> wcunning: what OSes have you done this on ?
12:33 < wcunning> I've done Fedora
12:33  * SamB wonders what client wcunning is using that left him thinking he had been privately messaged
12:33 < wcunning> Finch
12:33 <+SamB> huh, that tells me nothing at all
12:33 <+SamB> does it look like an IM client ?
12:33 < wcunning> it highlights messages intended for me with green
12:34 <+SamB> ah
12:34 < wcunning> yes, it's ncurses Pidgin
12:34 < wcunning> but it makes no distinction between wcunning: and /msg wcunning
12:34 < wcunning> so
12:34 < wcunning> I get confused
12:34 < wcunning> anyhow
12:34 <+SamB> yeayh, I figured that might be the problem
12:35 <+SamB> even x-chat is confused about NOTICEs in such a way
12:35 < wcunning> so I've gotten crawl and DF and such running in Fedora, but since all game devs everywhere that provide linux support do so with 32-bit libs
12:35 <+SamB> it attributes them to an arbitrary channel in which the source of the NOTICE is, if it knows of any such
12:35 < wcunning> and I run a 64-bit system, so getting those libs is annoying
12:35 < wcunning> Desura mostly handles that for you
12:36 < wcunning> and it handles updates
12:36 < wcunning> which doesn't happen when I compile from source
12:36 <+SamB> Does Fedora not have some way for you to contribute/maintain a package? (Or is that just too much work?)
12:37 < wcunning> it does, I could build an RPM for crawl
12:37 < wcunning> but part of what I'm looking for in talking to the dev channel is permission to go build packages and such
12:37 <+SamB> I meant more along the lines of you maintaining a spec file and them building RPMs
12:37 <+SamB> already granted!
12:37 < wcunning> cool
12:38 < wcunning> yeah, they build it, and I host it in the Fedora repos and such
12:38 <+SamB> but we'll also give you our blessing, in addition to the legal permission you've already recieved with the sources
12:38 < wcunning> see, that's what I was more interested in
12:38 < wcunning> anyhow, I like Desura in that it keeps all of my games in one place 
12:39 <+SamB> We'll even help you if you need it
12:39 < wcunning> and on reinstall, which I do every 6 months for the new version of Fedora, all I have to do is download one 1MB tarball and I'm good to go
12:39 < wcunning> log in with my account
12:39 <+SamB> I must be some kind of masochist anyway, contemplating building my own MSVCRT.dll as I am ;-)
12:39 < wcunning> *shudder* windows
12:39 <+SamB> wcunning: you reinstall from scratch ?!?!
12:40 < wcunning> yep
12:40 < wcunning> every 6 months
12:40 <+SamB> wcunning: yeah, I don't much like it either, but I want to fix the crashing functionality
12:40 <+SamB> it's not working right
12:40 < wcunning> just did it a few weeks ago for the Fedora 16 release
12:40 <+SamB> why from scratch ?!?
12:41 < wcunning> it's easier 
12:41 < wcunning> I maintain backups of all my .***rc files and my *.conf files
12:41 < wcunning> everything that matters
12:41 <+SamB> but, you need installation media for that!
12:41 <+SamB> and, like, questions need answering and shit
12:41 < wcunning> meh
12:42 < wcunning> takes like 3~4 hours total from booting into installation media to completely restored functionality
12:42 <+SamB> I'm using Debian that was originally installed in 2003
12:42 < wcunning> and it keeps the bloat from piling up
12:42 <+SamB> hmm, I guess there is that
12:43 < wcunning> the sheer number of unused packages that I install is astounding
12:43 < wcunning> and this keeps them from eating my harddrive
12:43 <+SamB> but I think if I did that I'd want to alternate between two drives in case I wanted to consult the previous install about something ...
12:43 < wcunning> anyhow, so I'll take a look at the process for getting Crawl into both the Fedora repos and Desura, once I'm done with Finals in a week and a day
12:44 <+SamB> you might also be interested in looking at the opensuse public build service, it sounds cool ...
12:44 < wcunning> it's amazing
12:44 < wcunning> and that might actually be the place to build crawl
12:45 < wcunning> since you can then have it packaged for every major linux distro (and I think even Arch)
12:45 <+SamB> you don't think arch counts as "major" yet?
12:45 < wcunning> thanks for the reminder, I'll try there first
12:45 < wcunning> eh, I'm just trolling the Arch guy in here
12:45 <+SamB> well, you might also check the process for getting into Fedora proper
12:45 < wcunning> I intend to, just for my own edification
12:45 <+SamB> wcunning: all I know is that a lot of people from #haskell swear by it
12:46 <+SamB> Arch, I mean
12:46 < wcunning> oh god, everyone I know is talking about Haskell this and Haskell that
12:46 <+SamB> Haskell is pretty damn cool, as a language
12:46 < wcunning> so I keep hereing
12:46 < wcunning> hearing
12:47 < wcunning> but I'm an embedded systems guy, so it's C or gtfo
12:47 <+SamB> the main reason I don't use it much lately is that I'm really low on disk space and so I don't feel like trying to update to the latest versions and stuff ...
12:47 <+SamB> ah, yeah
12:47 <+SamB> Haskell is not very popular for systems programming yet ;-)
12:47 <+SamB> with good reason
12:48 < wcunning> anyhow, I intend to use crawl as the guinea pig for how to get everything building just so everywhere, since it's something that I want to learn
12:48 <+SamB> (At the very least, the tools don't support it well.)
12:48 < ghallberg> wcunning: Please keep trolling, just saying it's available...
12:49 < wcunning> ghallberg: the number of times I've used the archwiki should make me more respectful, but I just can't bring myself
12:49 <+SamB> yeah, that wiki is sometimes pretty helpful
12:51 < wcunning> anyhow, so when I start in on the packaging in a little over a week, I'll jump back on and have plenty of questions
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13:04 < bmh> evilmike: What if we made a monster... wait for it... that kills the player.
13:04 <+evilmike> that is probably a good idea for new monsters
13:04 <+evilmike> better than a new one that doesn't kill the player
13:05 < Wensley> I resent that
13:05 < Wensley> I am all about thinking of monsters that only cause the player to be more likely to be killed by other monsters
13:05 <+evilmike> I wasn't actually refering to anything in crawl. Except maybe porcupines, those are pointless (literally)
13:05 <+evilmike> spines = points. get it? ok sorr
13:05 <+evilmike> y
13:07 < bmh> How about a monster in slime with a 'constriction attack' -- ie. it slides into your square and now you're standing in a puddle of acid
13:08 < Eronarn> bmh: gelatinous cube!
13:08 <+evilmike> on the subject of new monsters, I think it would be a good idea to focus more on improving existing ones. Here's an incomplete list of dull monsters: deep trolls, rock (or iorn) trolls, all golems, porcupines, brimstone (or pit) fiends
13:08 < DrPraetor> Brimstone fiends are boring?
13:09 < Eronarn> i think we should just drop porcupines
13:09 < bmh> trolls are pretty boring. once you're at D:27 they aren't a threat
13:09 <+evilmike> too much overlap with pit fiends
13:09 <+evilmike> deep trolls are boring because they are more like deep yaks
13:09 < Eronarn> maybe have a gigantic porcupine mosnter, but tiny ones aren't interesting
13:09 < bmh> What if rock trolls use the agate snail trick? At low HP they turn to stone and begin regenerating
13:09 < Eronarn> that would make them even more boring
13:10 < DrPraetor> By boring you seem to mean "non-lethal".
13:10 <+evilmike> that's really not a fun thing and already doesn't accomplish anything when snails do it
13:10 <+evilmike> the main effect of it was to screw with autofight, now it's just a weird form of fleeing
13:11 < DrPraetor> It's an entertaining schtick, but rock trolls/deep trolls should either stay vanilla (they're a threat to my char, but I'm playing an octopode) or they should get some unique ability of their own.
13:11 <+evilmike> the latter
13:12 < Eronarn> i think rock trolls are fine, there should be vanilla monsters (maybe give them more HP)
13:12 <+elliptic> actually giving spines to monsters shouldn't be hard with UCC
13:12 < Eronarn> deep trolls suck though
13:12 <+evilmike> I think deep trolls could be kept mostly the same but given pack leaders with spells, like ogre bands get ogre mages
13:12 <+elliptic> so someone should go do that with porcupines
13:12 <+evilmike> my problem with rock/iron trolls is that they are too similar, imo keep one and change the other
13:12 < bmh> @??iron troll
13:12 < Gretell> iron troll (T) | Speed: 7 | HD: 16 | Health: 68-116 | AC/EV: 20/4 | Damage: 35, 25, 25 | Flags: regen | Res: magic(106), fire, cold | Chunks: poison+contam | XP: 826.
13:12 < bmh> @??rock troll
13:12 < Gretell> rock troll (T) | Speed: 8 | HD: 11 | Health: 41-80 | AC/EV: 13/6 | Damage: 30, 20, 20 | Flags: regen | Res: magic(58) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 375.
13:12 < Eronarn> evilmike: s/iron troll/steam troll/; they're slow but can power up for a charge
13:12 <+evilmike> iron trolls do more damage, true, but its not much of a difference when they are both very slow
13:13 < bmh> What if we made iron trolls susceptible to electricity?
13:13 <+elliptic> IMO remove rock trolls
13:13 < Eronarn> bmh: metal monsters aren't in crawl...
13:13 < bmh> ??deep troll
13:13 < Henzell> deep troll[1/1]: While weaker than some other Ts, it is the only pack creature among them.  Expect to fight a few.
13:13 < DrPraetor> Or just have rock trolls show up slightly earlier.
13:13 < bmh> Eronarn: iron golem?
13:13 < Eronarn> @??iron golem
13:13 < Gretell> iron golem (8) | Speed: 7 | HD: 15 | Health: 118-152 | AC/EV: 15/3 | Damage: 35 | Flags: non-living | Res: magic(immune), fire+++, cold+++, elec+++, poison+++, drown, rot+++, neg+++, torm | XP: 915.
13:13 < DrPraetor> @??deep troll
13:13 < Gretell> deep troll (T) | Speed: 10 | HD: 10 | Health: 36-72 | AC/EV: 6/10 | Damage: 27, 20, 20 | Flags: sense invisible, regen | Res: magic(40) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 1018.
13:13 <+elliptic> iron trolls can be sort of dangerous/interesting despite being slow
13:14 < bmh> Iron Golems are orders of magnitude more dangerous than Deep Trolls
13:14 <+elliptic> rock trolls, never
13:14 <+evilmike> iron golems are harmless unless you are playing badly
13:14 <+elliptic> bmh: hm? deep trolls are much more dangerous
13:14 < DrPraetor> All slow monsters are harmless unless you are playing badly, but so are the walls and floors.
13:14 < bmh> elliptic: sorry -- aren't Iron Golems the ones in zot that blast you with lightening bolts?
13:15 <+elliptic> golems don't bother me much as they are currently used (mainly in vaults)
13:15 < DrPraetor> I don't think "everything must kill you!" is a good design goal.
13:15 <+elliptic> bmh: no...
13:15 < DrPraetor> @??electric golem
13:15 < Gretell> electric golem (8) | Speed: 16 | HD: 15 | Health: 118-152 | AC/EV: 5/20 | Damage: 15(elec:15-21), 15(elec:15-21), 15, 15 | Flags: non-living, see invisible, !sil | Res: magic(160), fire, cold, elec+++, poison+++, drown, rot+++, neg+++, torm | XP: 5402 | Sp: b.lightning (3d20), blink.
13:15 < ghallberg> DrPraetor: Things that can't kill you are pretty pointless though.
13:15 <+evilmike> especially things that can't kill you, but take forever for you to kill them
13:15 <+evilmike> iron golems and crystal golems are the biggest offenders
13:15 <+elliptic> golems in vaults, like some of the crypt:5 endings, actually serve some purpose
13:16 < DrPraetor> Well, we could go the D&D route and give Iron Golems the ability to breathe out poison clouds.
13:16 <+elliptic> since you usually don't have endless room to run away and there are other monsters present and you really want to get past them to the loot
13:16 < Eronarn> imo we should give all golems an effect they do while they're in LOS, like statues
13:16 < Eronarn> do we have clay golems?
13:16 < Eronarn> @??clay golem
13:16 < Gretell> clay golem (8) | Speed: 8 | HD: 8 | Health: 58-79 | AC/EV: 7/5 | Damage: 11, 11 | Flags: non-living, see invisible | Res: magic(immune), fire+++, cold+++, elec+++, poison+++, drown, rot+++, neg+++, torm | XP: 185.
13:16 <+evilmike> there are like 7 golem types
13:16 <+elliptic> Eronarn: that would be an improvement, yeah
13:16 < Eronarn> we could give those permanent leda's or something
13:17 <+elliptic> really, though, generic slow melee monsters (zombies, skeletons, rock trolls) bother me a lot more than golems
13:17 < DrPraetor> Golems should have the ability to absorb attacks hitting adjacent monsters, and their AI should have them stand next to archery and spell-casting monsters.
13:17 <+elliptic> because they show up alone, in random parts of V and D
13:18 < bmh> ??leda
13:18 < Henzell> ledas liquefaction[1/2]: Level 4 earth/tmut spell, found in the book of the Earth. Generates a halo of "liquefied" ground around the caster. Moving on liquefied ground has a -3 player movement malus (slightly more than one item of ponderousness). Applies slow effect to monsters. Doesn't affect flying, clinging, insubstantials; cannot be cast by these.
13:18 <+elliptic> like, stone giant zombie is my least favorite monster in crawl
13:18 < bmh> what if we turned golems into spider-like creatures and had them show up as statues? Would that leader to players zapping every statue they meet?
13:18 < DrPraetor> Well, stone giant zombies we need because they are available as a player-ally with reasonable frequency.
13:19 < Eronarn> elliptic: i think we could just greatly reduce zombie spawn rate as you progress in depth
13:19 <+evilmike> the problem with zombies is they get so much hp
13:19 <+elliptic> the problem with zombies is that they are slow and have no interesting features, even if the base monster did
13:19 < DrPraetor> Definitely, in the deeper dungeon switching the zombies over to phantasmals and such would make the late game more lethal, if that really is our goal.
13:20 < Eronarn> ...not really
13:20 < Eronarn> @??spectral troll
13:20 < Gretell> spectral troll (W) | Speed: 8 | HD: 7 | Health: 31-54 | AC/EV: 5/5 | Damage: 16(drain), 12(drain), 12 | Flags: undead, evil, see invisible, lev | Res: magic(immune), cold, poison, drown, rot+++, neg+++, torm | Vul: holy++ | XP: 117.
13:20 < Eronarn> @??zombie troll
13:20 < Gretell> unknown monster: "zombie troll"
13:20 < Eronarn> @??troll zombie
13:20 < Gretell> troll zombie (Z) | Speed: 8 | HD: 7 | Health: 45-73 | AC/EV: 1/5 | Damage: 16, 12, 12 | Flags: undead, evil | Res: magic(8), cold++, poison, drown, rot, neg+++, torm | Vul: holy++ | XP: 123.
13:20 < lorimer> I'm not sure lethal is necessarily the goal, as much as it is removing things that are blobs of HP and damage that are just like other things that are blobs of HP and damage
13:21 < Eronarn> why is spectral rc+ and zombie is rc++
13:21 < DrPraetor> Personally, I'm not sold on the notion of going through the monster list and making *every single monster* sing and dance somehow.
13:21 < Eronarn> that makes no sense at all
13:21 < DrPraetor> @??spectral orc
13:21 < Gretell> spectral orc (W) | Speed: 8 | HD: 1 | Health: 4-8 | AC/EV: 2/5 | Damage: 4 | Flags: undead, evil, see invisible, lev | Res: magic(immune), cold, poison, drown, rot+++, neg+++, torm | Vul: holy++ | XP: 1.
13:21 < DrPraetor> @??orc zombie
13:21 < Gretell> orc zombie (z) | Speed: 8 | HD: 1 | Health: 6-11 | AC/EV: 0/5 | Damage: 4 | Flags: undead, evil | Res: magic(1), cold++, poison, drown, rot, neg+++, torm | Vul: holy++ | XP: 1.
13:21 < DrPraetor> No, it doesn't.
13:21 < Eronarn> @??phantom
13:21 < Gretell> phantom (p) | Speed: 10 | HD: 7 | Health: 24-52 | AC/EV: 3/13 | Damage: 10(blink) | Flags: undead, evil, lev, !sil | Res: magic(37), cold++, poison, drown, rot+++, neg+++, torm | Vul: holy++ | XP: 124 | Sp: blink.
13:21 <+elliptic> eronarn: it doesn't even have to be as you progress in depth... zombies and skeletons just should generate randomly on their own far less often
13:22 < Eronarn> elliptic: well, i think they are more interesting earlier on, when you have less resources. but global reduction is fine too
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13:30 < DrPraetor> Zombie killer bees are one of the more interesting (and dangerous) early monsters.
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13:39 < bmh> could we make it so that Grinder and Ribbit never spawn on the same level? Please? :)
13:39 <+elliptic> no :P
13:48 <+|amethyst> should using electrocution weapons in water prompt the way Devastator does?
13:48 <+|amethyst> i.e. if the defender is in water and an adjacent friendly is also in water
13:48 <+|amethyst> also, CIA is being slow
13:49 <+elliptic> |amethyst: that sounds good, yeah
13:49 <+elliptic> even if it means fewer hilarious beogh drowning deaths :P
13:49 <+|amethyst> heh
13:50 < CIA-54> |amethyst * r0266f297b09a /crawl-ref/source/melee_attack.cc: Make unrand melee effects happen a bit later.
13:51 <+|amethyst> that one's an hour old
13:51 < CIA-54> |amethyst * r7a86c9c650a6 /crawl-ref/source/ (melee_attack.cc misc.h): Improve devastator prompt.
13:51 <+|amethyst> hmm... trying to figure out how to do the targetting appropriately
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14:09 <+|amethyst> I think I have something, but it only checks if the cell is water
14:10 < CIA-54> MarvinPA * r6b48f1f8a229 /crawl-ref/source/ (dat/descript/gods.txt describe.cc): Remove inaccurate message about Zin feeding
14:10 <+|amethyst> not whether the creature in that cell would be affected
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14:27 < Henzell> Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.10-a0-2652-g6b48f1f (32)
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14:28 < Eronarn> ??devastator
14:28 < Henzell> devastator[1/3]: The shillelagh "Devastator". Appears as a loaded stick. It's a +2, +4 club that casts radius 1 shatter when you hit something with it, centered on the thing you hit.
14:28 < Eronarn> ??devastator[2]
14:29 < Henzell> devastator[2/3]: she-lay-lee
14:29 < Eronarn> ??devastator[3]
14:29 < Henzell> devastator[3/3]: a wooden walking stick, club, or cudgel, associated with Irish folklore.
14:35 < DrPraetor> @??gnoll shaman
14:35 < Gretell> gnoll shaman (g) | Speed: 10 | HD: 3 | Health: 12-27 | AC/EV: 2/9 | Damage: 10 | Flags: spellcaster | Res: magic(16) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 40 | Sp: corona, petrify, heal other, haste other, minor healing.
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14:42 < DrPraetor> So, Deep Troll leaders could be one of: Deep Troll Fetichist (shaman, gets a wand or rod as well), Deep Troll Heretic (priest of some nameless god) or Deep Troll Commander (bigger/badder, worships Okawaru, and gets Haste Self and Clarity.)  Would that make deep troll packs more interesting?
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14:46 < CIA-54> |amethyst * r4c35781c1331 /crawl-ref/source/ (melee_attack.cc target.cc target.h): Warn when using elec brand in water near allies.
14:47 <+|amethyst> ^^ doesn't check whether the defender or ally flies or has known relec
14:47 <+|amethyst> maybe someone would like to improve that, but that would be a lot of duplicated code
14:49 < Eronarn> just write an 'elec_dangerous' function to handle that
14:50 <+|amethyst> hm
14:51 <+|amethyst> I guess we could look up the monster in the cell
14:52 <+|amethyst> I don't want to leak information about monsters wearing rElec armour
14:52 <+|amethyst> so I guess it can't be exactly the same code
14:52 <+MarvinPA> isn't elec damage weirdly inconsistent about how it behaves with flying monsters, also?
14:53 <+|amethyst> electrocution damage is not
14:53 <+|amethyst> but electricity in general is
14:54 <+MarvinPA> yeah
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14:54 <+MarvinPA> like, static discharge does nothing, af_elec and elec-branded weapons i think do reduced damage?
14:55 <+MarvinPA> and no idea about elec beams
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14:55 < oiseaux_> Howdy, is Zin's vitalisation meant to have a "status" message to indicate the duration of the effect, or is it something that hasn't/doesn't need to be implemented?
14:56 <+|amethyst> MarvinPA:  elec-brand does nothing, AF_ELEC does reduced damage
14:57 <+MarvinPA> oiseaux_: hm, not sure
14:57 <+|amethyst> actually, there is a little inconsistency
14:57 <+|amethyst> with elec brand
14:57 <+MarvinPA> it probably could do, currently there's at least the indicator of your stats being increased that shows it's active
14:57 <+|amethyst> if the defender is clinging over water it will still proc
14:57 <+|amethyst> but it won't affect adjacent clingers
14:57 <+MarvinPA> but maybe a status light would be good now it does lots of other things
14:57 <+|amethyst> I'll fix that
14:58 < oiseaux_> MarvinPA: That would be really great imho as there doesn't seem to be a reason not to, and it's much clearer and intuitive. Like, bright white "Vit" going to grey a few turns before expiry?
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15:09 < minced> Just wondering - have any of the reform proposals for dwarves gained traction?
15:09 < minced> I've checked out forge dwarves, which seem OK
15:10 <+MarvinPA> the patch has a branch in the git repo, i don't think anyone's really looked into them other than that
15:10 < minced> I was considering proposing bringing dwarves back with slightly better armour/axe apts and slow 1 (explaining that dwarves have stubby legs)
15:11 < minced> plus perhaps some other abilities that are powerful but hinder escape
15:11 < minced> not sure that slow 1 is suitable for a "beginner" race though
15:14 < Wensley> minced: forget about dwarves, we need nomes!
15:14 < minced> true
15:14 < minced> i've been so freaking busy
15:14 < Wensley> it's okay
15:14 < Wensley> I just yearn for wallswimming
15:16 < CIA-54> |amethyst * r2739c26b5a41 /crawl-ref/source/melee_attack.cc: Fix electrocution warnings for fliers/clingers.
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15:44 < CIA-54> MarvinPA * r9a1be99c5a1a /crawl-ref/source/ (output.cc status.cc): Add a status light for Vitalisation
15:44 < CIA-54> MarvinPA * r66aa1e41fdda /crawl-ref/source/religion.cc: Cancel scrying when abandoning Ashenzari
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15:53 <+SamB> |amethyst: does "you" count as an ally?
15:53 <+|amethyst> no
15:53 <+SamB> why not ?
15:55 <+|amethyst> because electrocuting yourself can't offend your god, I guess
15:55 <+SamB> it's still dangerous!
15:55 <+|amethyst> rebuilding for something else, but then I'll look into it
15:56 <+SamB> I mean, I guess it shouldn't continue to warn you after you say "yeah, I'm sure" during a given wield...
15:56 <+|amethyst> yeah, that's a problem
15:56 <+SamB> could perhaps work like launcher-bashing warning
15:57 <+|amethyst> yeah, set you.received_weapon_warning
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15:58 < Ragdoll> could anyone check if their message_colour = mute is working? none of mine seem to be, but i might have screwed up my rcfile somehow
15:58 < st_> you need to remove uppercase from some of them
15:58 < st_> they got screwed up by UCC
15:59 <+SamB> hmm, we don't set our "module version" on windows
15:59 <+SamB> or app version
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16:06 < CIA-54> |amethyst * rb368a4625bff /crawl-ref/ (11 files in 6 dirs): Add name_nocorpse flag.
16:06 <+|amethyst> that had a change to docs/develop/levels/syntax.txt... I guess the wiki needs to be updated too?
16:18 <+evilmike> SamB: I say the fewer warning prompts the better.. crawl has too many as it is
16:18 <+evilmike> although, 99% of them are for walking into steam clouds
16:19 <+SamB> I have ADD, so I actually find many of them helpful ;-P
16:19 <+SamB> the cloud exclusions obviously need work
16:21 <+evilmike> Is there an option to just disable prompting for walking into clouds/exclusions? Maybe there should be one
16:21 <+MarvinPA> or steam could just not give a prompt
16:22 <+MarvinPA> unless you're at like 10 hp or something
16:22 <+evilmike> yeah
16:22 <+evilmike> I think it becomes promptless at rf++
16:22 <+evilmike> and at rf+ it does like 1 damage and still requires you to press Y
16:22 <+MarvinPA> mmm
16:23 <+evilmike> I'd still use that option for other clouds though. For example, trying to do the ice swamp ending is pretty hard when every step requires a Y
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16:29 <+|amethyst> so if both the player and an ally are adjacent to the defender and in water and the player is electricity-prone and has not been warned, my current code (not committed) will not mention the ally
16:29 <+|amethyst> (if the player has already said yes to the warning on a previous attack, the ally prompt will still happen)
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16:30 <+|amethyst> arguably if there is an ally (etc) it should always be mentioned... but stop_attack_prompt doesn't distinguish between you saying yes and no allies being present
16:30 <+evilmike> that's only when you would get penance right?
16:31 <+|amethyst> no, it uses stop_attack_prompt for the not-you part of the check, and that calls bad_attack() which cares about all friendlies
16:32 <+|amethyst> so when it's an ally, non-hostile, *or* you would gain penance
16:33 <+|amethyst> the problem is that, because stop_attack_prompt doesn't distinguish between the player saying "yes" and there being no unattackable creatures, checking in the other order could prompt twice on the same attack
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16:34 <+|amethyst> if someone wants to handle that, feel free... I've got to go once I push this
16:40 < CIA-54> |amethyst * r361ddcd87c4b /crawl-ref/source/melee_attack.cc: Also prompt when electrocution would hit yourself.
16:58 < CIA-54> evilmike * r12cc2d61f3b3 /crawl-ref/source/dat/des/altar/overflow.des: Fix the floor tiles in fedhas_altar_fruit_tree. (nicolae)
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17:08 < CIA-54> evilmike * r2060005e7104 /crawl-ref/source/dat/des/altar/overflow.des: Additional fixes to fedhas_altar_fruit_tree. (nicolae)
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17:26 < CIA-54> evilmike * r0bd04a578f88 /crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/mini_monsters.des: Underground beach vault (nicolae).
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17:42 <@due> I ma going to make some vaults!
17:45 <+SamB> wow
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18:46 < CIA-54> evilmike * re9c2dd1e4845 /crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/mini_monsters.des: An evil quicksilver dragon vault.
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19:05 < HangedMan>  where are food nutritional values defined in the source?
19:08 <+evilmike> have you tried looking at the file called food.cc
19:08 <+evilmike> you may be pleasantly surprised
19:08 < HangedMan> pff
19:09 < HangedMan> I should actually learn how git works so I stop relying on the learndb for specific numbers
19:09 < HangedMan> can stop
19:10 < HangedMan> ...huh. the learndb values aren't too off, I'm not sure how those old averages were arrived at at times
19:11 <+evilmike> git won't really help you much for finding stuff like this, you really just should download the source code and use grep (or the similar program that comes with windows, I think it's called "find")
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19:12 <+evilmike> you don't need git to download the source code, by the way
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19:16 < ais523> git helps you keep it up to date, though
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19:23 <+SamB> since when does JSON allow UTF-16 surrogate pairs to appear in/as \u escapes ?
19:24 <+SamB> or search through history
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19:24 <+SamB> (git helps you search through history, sorry)
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19:43 <+edlothiol> SamB: I don't know about since when, but it's in the rfc
19:43 <+SamB> :-(
19:44  * SamB supposes that the syntax given on json.org probably doesn't forbid it, either
19:45 <+SamB> okay, so it looks like _equip_jewellery_effect() is called *after* equipping the item in question
19:45 <+SamB> any particular reason why ?
19:50 <+edlothiol> SamB: doesn't that seem like the natural order?
19:51 <+SamB> maybe sorta ... but it makes it harder to tell what things were like without the item in question
19:52 <+edlothiol> also, for example +mp-rings just call calc_mp() in that function
19:52 <+SamB> so, say, giving a different message when the player already had teleportitis is trickier ...
19:54 <+edlothiol> hm, maybe I'm misunderstanding you (or the code)... aren't things like they were without the item at the beginning of the _equip_jewellery_effect call?
19:55 <+edlothiol> (I'm probably not helping, I'm not very familiar with that part of the code...)
19:56 <+SamB> not if I'm reading equip_item() right, and not based on my attempts to implement said different message!
19:59 <+edlothiol> ah, I see
20:00  * SamB guesses he'll just stick with the ugly way, including cross-referencing comments ...
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20:34 < alefury> evilmike: did i read that vault wrong, or is that like a million quicksilver dragons=
20:34 < alefury> ?
20:35 <+evilmike> no, you should use a font that makes l and 1 look more different
20:35 <+evilmike> it's lava, with a dragon at the end of the path. It can dispel flight (although not instantly, so you can recast it)
20:36 <+evilmike> the idea is that there is loot, but the player has to judge whether to take the extreme risk involved
20:37 < alefury> ah. 1 and l look exactly the same (literally exactly) in the font im using
20:37 <+evilmike> I was also pretty careful to make sure it doesn't wander out of there, even if you manage to wake it up
20:37 < alefury> on gitorious, with firefox.
20:38 < monqy> I think it's some sort of default
20:38 < monqy> the font, I mean
20:38 < ZChris13> it's probably specified in the ccs
20:38 < alefury> l and 1 are literally exactly the same. its pixel perfect.
20:38 <+evilmike> that's pretty bad
20:39 < alefury> yes it is
20:40 <+MarvinPA> and the reason for moats full of draconians, presumably!
20:40 < ZChris13> What
20:40 < HangedMan> it's not a moat full of draconians, it's a moat of draconians
20:40 < HangedMan> there's a difference
20:40 < alefury> the best bug (i never encountered it :( :( :( )
20:40 < Wensley> monqy: looks like gitorious is just using courier new
20:41 < HangedMan> I am mildly annoyed nobody has apparently found my abyss imp/bat vault
20:41 < HangedMan> imp/bat moat vault
20:41 < ZChris13>  what
20:41 < monqy> Wensley: I never bothered checking; I figured it was some sort of default because lots of people have this problem (me, alefury, DracoOmega from ##crawl, others??)
20:41 < ZChris13> you should make a map that looks like you typoed the vault definition
20:41 <+evilmike> typos tend to get corrected eventually
20:41 < alefury> if i zoom in, 1 and l are different, but at the default zoom they are identical
20:41 < ZChris13> as some sort of in joke
20:42 < Wensley> monqy: the style rules on the page will make it use bitstream vera sans mono instead of courier new if you uninstall courier new from your computer
20:42 < HangedMan> bat/imp moat is already enough of a joke
20:42 < alefury> im pretty sure i have courier new
20:42 < monqy> is bitstream vera sans mono l/1-bad
20:43 < monqy> same goes for courier new
20:43 < monqy> I'm not a font expert ;_;
20:43 < alefury> at proper zoom levels its okay. but the standard for me is way zoomed out, so they are the same
20:43 <+evilmike> hmm that reminds me, when you get hit with dispelling energy over water/lava, the game should really give you the red "Careful, you are starting to lose your buoyancy!" message
20:43 < Wensley> monqy: bitstream is really good, deja vu is slightly better
20:44 <+evilmike> this isn't a new issue, there's already a lom lobon vault which can potentially drown you in this way
20:44 < Wensley> monqy: all you need to do is change firefox's default monospace font, you can do it in options > content > fonts advanced
20:45 < alefury> mhh, deja vu is much better indeed
20:45 < alefury> general readability is a bit worse, though
20:45 < Wensley> bitstream mono and deja vu are almost the same font
20:45 < alefury> text looks bad
20:45 < Wensley> the l/1 are actually really well differentiated
20:46 < Wensley> yeah, gitorious uses a really bad font size
20:46 < Wensley> for their code
20:46 < Wensley> also ugh it's like light grey on white
20:46 < alefury> i also hate how they dont display the commit description for large commits, and that you cant look at changed tiles
20:47 < monqy> yeah
20:47 < alefury> sourceforge was much better in those regards, but it wasnt working, right?
20:48 < Wensley> yeah so it looks like the only way to make gitorious's code display look good is to use fixedsys
20:48 < Wensley> which is like the ugliest font in the world
20:49 < HangedMan> look good, ugliest
20:49 < Wensley> HangedMan: truly a paradox
20:49 < Wensley> evilmike: also that vault is brilliant
20:51 < alefury> reading text in deja vu font makes my head hurt. also i drank a few shots of... stuff... no idea if thats related.
20:52 < ZChris13> Wensley: There was a pretty good monospaced font going around earlier
20:52 < HangedMan> stuff
20:52 < Wensley> ZChris13: I am like a monospaced font pro, I am sure I have heard of it
20:52 < ZChris13> Okay
20:52 < alefury> very mediocre whiskey, and ouzo
20:52 < Wensley> if anybody has 120 euro to spare, check out pragmata pro
20:52 < ZChris13> Why would you buy a font for 120 euro
20:52 < HangedMan> are there any decent square spaced shaped whatever fonts so I can get a better feel for vault shapes and sizes and such
20:52 < Wensley> actually I think it is on sale for like $40 right now
20:53 < monqy> why would you buy a font for $40
20:53 < ZChris13> 40 bucks for a font
20:53 < ZChris13> what
20:53 <+evilmike> the only thing it really needs is a duration warning for the antimagic effect... you get 2 turns before lev/flight wears off, so you can move+recast it every turn if you need a desperate escape
20:53 <+evilmike> but I'm worried someone might think they have 3 turns, or something
20:53 < alefury> those people will die and learn
20:53 < monqy> "warning: 2 turns left"
20:53 < Wensley> HangedMan: dejavu is pretty squarish, but sadly I don't know of any fonts that are exactly square
20:53 < monqy> alefury: will they?
20:53 < alefury> (and be very pissed)
20:53 < monqy> alefury: will they know then that it is exactly 2 all the time
20:53 < st_> there isn't much point looking at vaults in a square font because no one plays in a square font
20:54 <+evilmike> tiles are square :P
20:54 < alefury> i once moved over deep water during tornado, because i usually had flight up *all the time*
20:54 < monqy> nobody plays tiles
20:54 <+MarvinPA> i guess webtiles has glyph mode now, presumably that is square
20:54 < monqy> :o
20:54 <+MarvinPA> square ascii is ugly though, i tried it in tome and it was ugh
20:54 < st_> "terminal" has a square font size I believe
20:55 < st_> at 12pt
20:55 < Wensley> really just use dejavu or lucida console
20:56 < Wensley> don't use monaco
20:56 < Wensley> monaco is the hipster font
20:56 <+edlothiol> MarvinPA: no, it uses the normal font metrics
20:56 <+MarvinPA> ah, cool
20:56 <+edlothiol> I was wondering about that when implementing it, actually
20:57 < Wensley> also ubuntu mono is pretty nice
20:57 <+edlothiol> (whether square or normal metrics would be preferred)
20:57 < Wensley> and if you are on windows 7 you might as well just use consolas
20:57 < HangedMan> edlothiol, just curious, but why doesn't webtiles get to have trunk? too unstable?
20:57 <+edlothiol> consolas is the best monospace font
20:58 <+edlothiol> HangedMan: no, it will, it just needs some infrastructure work to be done by Nap kin
20:58 < HangedMan> ah, wonderful
20:59 < alefury> that should so be a highlight :P
20:59 < alefury> he should be asleep anyway :P
20:59 < HangedMan> napping kin
20:59 < alefury> if webtiles had mouse support i might actually play online
21:00 < HangedMan> it will have
21:00 < alefury> i like mouse movement and inventory
21:00 <+edlothiol> there isn't actually much left to do, I think, I just need to remind him to do it
21:00 <+edlothiol> yeah, most of the requisites for mouse support are now done
21:01 < Wensley> edlothiol: does webtiles use tornado as its server?
21:01 <+edlothiol> yes
21:01 < alefury> yeah, also trunk, cant play webtiles if it doesnt have trunk...
21:01 < alefury> that might be more important than mouse support actually
21:01 < Wensley> edlothiol: I don't know anything about how webtiles works really, just saw this and thought you mind find it interesting: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/python-tornado/VkOPfrbhaXE/discussion
21:01 < HangedMan> I'd go back to webtiles if an american server would host it
21:02 < Wensley> cso will never host webtiles precisely to spite hangedman
21:02 < Wensley> also because I can't even figure out how to make it host fucking normal crawl
21:02 <+edlothiol> Wensley: that's interesting... wouldn't expect it to make much of a difference in our case though
21:03 <+edlothiol> cso?
21:03 < monqy> seleniac?
21:03 < Wensley> I'm trying to set up a server
21:03 <+edlothiol> ah
21:03 < Wensley> right now, as a matter of fact
21:03  * HangedMan starts making vaults filled with things wensley hates
21:03 < Wensley> for experimental builds of crawl
21:03 < monqy> mcrawl?
21:03 < HangedMan> wait, what do you hate
21:03 < Wensley> HangedMan: I really hate catlobes
21:03 <+edlothiol> also, hosting webtiles is easier than dgamelaunch :P
21:03 < Wensley> I sure hope so
21:03 <+edlothiol> (or should be)
21:03 < Wensley> maybe I will only host webtiles then
21:03 < HangedMan> reverse psychology is not very effective given your background, wensley
21:04 < Wensley> HangedMan: you know what monsters I really hate?
21:04 < Wensley> hangedmans
21:04 < monqy> HangedMan: Wensley hates mnolegs
21:04 < Wensley> !lg . s=killer
21:04 < Sequell> 277 games for Wensley: 33x a kobold, 29x , 26x a hobgoblin, 13x a giant gecko, 12x a snake, 11x a goblin, 11x an orc wizard, 9x Crazy Yiuf, 9x an orc priest, 8x an orc warrior, 7x an ogre, 7x Sigmund, 7x a gnoll, 5x a jackal, 5x a centaur, 4x Blork the orc, 4x Terence, 4x a giant ant, 4x a rat, 4x an ooze, 3x an orc, 3x Jessica, 3x a worker ant, 2x a hound, 2x Agnes, 2x an iguana, 2x a potion of p...
21:04 < alefury> i wish ckiller would recognize panlords
21:07 < HangedMan> oh, I know what I will do, I'll make a catlobe fault filled with black smoke at all times so the catlobe can't actually petrify you
21:07 < Wensley> hangedman_not_very_troublesome_catlobe
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21:11 < CIA-54> dolorous * rbee7f3c213b5 /crawl-ref/source/religion.cc: Add formatting fixes.
21:25 <+greensnark> edlothiol: Can you point me at instructions on setting up Webtiles?
21:29  * SamB cleans up path handling a bit so that paths in error messages on Windows will paste better into Emacs ...
21:31 <+SamB> incidentally, any idea why I'm seeing this on stdout and not stderr?
21:31 <+SamB>  Failed to load Lua persist table:
21:31 <+SamB>  C:\code\crawl\crawl-ref\source\/dat/dlua/luamark.lua:142: Unexpected type
21:31 <+SamB>  signature.
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21:41 <+edlothiol> greensnark: not really, I'm afraid... I know I should write something about it, but I haven't so far. But mostly it should be 1. install current python-tornado, 2. compile crawl with WEBTILES=y, 3. adapt webserver/config.py to your needs, and 4. start webserver/server.py
21:41 ۰۰-- alefury [~galefury@B4115.karlshof.wh.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
21:43 <+greensnark> edlothiol: Oh cool, so the original instructions apply
21:43 ۰۰-- MarvinPA [~MarvinPA@thecampbells.demon.co.uk] has joined ##crawl-dev
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21:44 <+greensnark> I heard there were plans for webtiles to record games: what's the status on that?
21:44 <+SamB> greensnark: I believe it works
21:44 <+greensnark> What's the recording format?
21:45 <+SamB> ttyrec
21:45 <+greensnark> Oh handy
21:45 <+SamB> maybe there were plans for something else, too; I don't know
21:46 <+edlothiol> yes, it currently makes ttyrecs of the normal console output of the games
21:47 <+edlothiol> it also should place the necessary files to make the games watchable live from dgamelaunch, but that hasn't really been tested yet ;)
21:48 <+greensnark> Oh, it does the inprogdirs thing?
21:48 <+greensnark> Neat
21:48 <+edlothiol> exactly
21:48 <+evilmike> I haven't seen 0.10 webtiles, but from reading the commit messages it sounds like it has more features than offline tiles now
21:48 <+evilmike> since it now has mouse support
21:48 <+edlothiol> it doesn't yet really have mouse support
21:49 <+evilmike> oh
21:49 <+edlothiol> only in menus so far, which I did because it was about three lines of code
21:50 <+evilmike> I wonder how many people move using the mouse. Do people request that a lot?
21:52 <+evilmike> it's a weird question, but the crawl tutorial does actually teach you to move with the mouse (along with keyboard) so maybe that's something newer players are used to
21:52 <+edlothiol> it has been requested a few times ;)
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21:53 <+edlothiol> I'll probably get to proper mouse support in 0.11
21:53 <+edlothiol> but not in 0.10, seeing as we're about a week from feature freeze ;)
21:54 < HangedMan> marvinpa and a few others don't seem to take that date seriously
21:54 < HangedMan> kilobyte's level rewrite code and spider's nest aren't in yet
21:54 <+evilmike> spider's nest isn't really ready for 0.10
21:55 < HangedMan> level rewrite isn't in yet
21:55 <+evilmike> that's being put off for save compat reasons I think? Not sure how close to finished it is
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22:04 < CIA-54> evilmike * r8e847cfab6c2 /crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/float.des: Make some of the grates in minmay_eyes undiggable glass again.
22:04 < CIA-54> elliptic * rc04ee31875fb /crawl-ref/source/ (abl-show.cc abl-show.h describe.cc religion.cc skills.cc): Allow all Elyvilon worshippers to use the lesser heal-other ability.
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23:00 <+SamB> I move using the mouse sometimes
23:00 <+SamB> when I want to go somewhere specific, and it's not somewhere I can quickly cycle to
23:03 <+SamB> sooo ... right now when I use this Prince.cs file to trigger Crawl to crash-dump, I get one error message on stdout rather than in the dump file like I'd expect:
23:04 <+SamB>  Failed to load Lua persist table:
23:04 <+SamB>  C:/code/crawl/crawl-ref/source/dat/dlua/luamark.lua:142: Unexpected type
23:04 <+SamB>  signature.
23:04 ۰۰-- Wensley [~chatzilla@ewire28-238.allegheny.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
23:04 < CIA-54> SamB * r4c6c24931fe4 /crawl-ref/source/dbg-asrt.cc: Don't look at errno unless freopen() actually returns NULL.
23:04 < CIA-54> SamB * r4b63a8fcd224 /crawl-ref/source/libw32c.cc: Windows console: Add a few missing steps to console shutdown
23:05 < CIA-54> SamB * r99532980adbc /crawl-ref/source/ (files.cc initfile.cc): Clean up path handling a bit.
23:08 ۰۰-- medgno [~medgno@c-75-72-238-81.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting]
23:10 <+SamB> <Cras> http://www.filesend.net/download.php?f=9fb8b295acb86dffefae800efb7dad9e or http://www.megaupload.com/?d=RP7RR1W3
23:11 <+SamB> is where this Prince.cs can be gotten
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23:32 < CIA-54> dolorous * r7a2312adcd73 /crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/monsters.txt: Fix capitalization.
23:40 < CIA-54> evilmike * r8712ab06c83b /crawl-ref/source/dat/des/ (branches/abyss.des variable/mini_monsters.des): De-spoilerfy a few vaults.
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--- Log closed Sun Dec 11 00:00:58 2011