00:03:04 Spriggan with Armor Skill under Ash cannot transfer knowledge out (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4867) by XuaXua 00:03:18 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-1765-g4772703 (32) 00:06:14 gaaah so tired 00:06:33 -!- chukamok has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 5.0/20110615151330]] 00:08:41 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:12:21 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 00:18:31 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-1765-g4772703 00:23:38 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 00:55:10 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 01:03:48 -!- elliptic has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:22:51 -!- ogaz_ has joined ##crawl-dev 01:25:06 * Keskitalo considers writing a blog post about Kenku->Tengu renaming, complete with aptitude tables before and after 01:31:33 when did pan lords all being speed 10 happen? I'm sure it wasn't liek that a few versions ago 01:32:34 @?? efreet 01:32:35 efreet (05R) | Speed: 10 | HD: 7 | Health: 24-53 | AC/EV: 10/5 | Damage: 12 | Flags: 05demonic, lev, !sil | Res: 06magic(28), 04fire+++, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 12cold, 08holy++ | XP: 335 | Sp: b.fire (3d15), fireball (3d15). 01:36:47 st_: Sounds unintentional.. 01:39:08 recent commit 01:39:19 oh sorry, misread your question 01:46:00 i've just linked to my 100+ crawl bug reports in an application for an entry-level QA job. i'll tell you the outcome 01:51:55 ortoslon: <3 01:52:36 I also linked my commit log on my job application. I did get the job! 01:55:02 -!- Ragdoll has joined ##crawl-dev 02:04:28 "Rejected for irrational hatred of mountain dwarves" 02:04:45 :o 02:05:21 context? 02:06:09 Ragdoll: channel logs are at http://tozt.net/crawl/ 02:06:25 -!- ElctrcAlbtrss has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:07:04 ah. it already sounds more like something you'd find in the tavern 02:08:01 FR: mountain goat-men 02:08:06 They got beards too! 02:08:20 add a mountain prefix to every species 02:08:25 and monster 02:08:48 mountain merfolks swim in volcanos 02:08:59 lava merfolk, fuck yeah1 02:09:03 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 02:09:18 acid folk 02:10:34 okay, let's ssee if I can make sense of the veto block 02:10:49 due, it's not used for anything at the moment, as far as I can tell 02:11:12 !rng yes no 02:11:13 The RNG chooses: yes. 02:11:17 damnit Henzell 02:11:51 Zaba: but I'm wondering if it'll do what I want it to dod 02:12:55 due, sure, if you add code that calls test_lua_veto and does what you want, it will :P 02:13:09 oh, does nothing ever call it? 02:13:18 hahahahahahahahha 02:13:22 okay, awesome 02:13:31 no, and a simple fgrep would have told you :P 02:13:33 -!- valrus has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:13:39 I did fgrep :p 02:13:49 I though tit was calledin resolve_map-lua, but obviously not 02:14:52 ... looks like my own code is screwed up too, huh 02:15:49 excellent 02:16:42 I wonder if it was ever used 02:16:52 I would imagine so, otherwise why would it ever get added 02:18:05 bah forest_paths causes spam. 02:19:10 !tv ogaz 02:19:17 yeah, it's a pretty huge minivault 02:19:34 is it like this in standard crawl or is it just spammy because of the message output? 02:20:00 it's spammy because of debugging messages 02:20:10 in normal crawl, it'll just freeze a bit at worst 02:20:15 bah 02:20:38 okay 02:20:46 why isn't this map being placed on D:3 with WEIGHT: 1000? 02:21:10 I tried 10000 and 100000 too. 02:21:19 PLACE: D:3 works but DEPTH: D:3 doesn't 02:21:36 Or is default-depth now overrriding Map DEPTH:? 02:21:58 uhm 02:22:11 i'm tired 02:22:11 is it a normal vault or a minivault? 02:22:16 ORIENT: vault 02:22:26 so normal 02:22:37 well, there's a dummy balancer that gets chosen 8/9 of the time for those 02:23:03 gaaah 02:23:40 use PLACE if you want it guaranteed. Simple :P 02:24:16 But using PLACE with a veto chunk will cause the builder to fuck-up and fail to build the level :) 02:24:22 Hence why I am doduble-checking the functionality with DEPTH: 02:24:34 so I can start to work on a "do not usee veto chunk with PLACE: tag" functionality 02:24:47 add a second vault with the same PLACE 02:25:25 it should then pick the other one over the map that gets vetoed by the veto chunk :P 02:28:12 chance: 100% i heard worked too 02:31:07 -!- ortoslon has quit [Quit: bye] 02:34:44 the dummy balancer is itself a CHANCE vault 02:36:37 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 02:44:28 well 02:44:29 actually no 02:44:55 well, dummy chance is a special case in some regards 02:46:07 whereas normal CHANCE vaults are somewhat separate from DEPTH/PLACE ones 02:48:14 but since chance vaults are always placed as secondary, there's no real guarantee to speak of 02:49:52 -!- DrPraetor has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:20:26 -!- Wop has joined ##crawl-dev 03:21:04 Hey guys. Anyone awake? 03:21:13 yeah 03:21:57 Zaba, do you happen to know where i could find a reference for strings allowed for KITEM when building vaults? 03:22:14 like say if i want to create a pair of boots... 03:23:20 all i could find were hammer, stone, and a few others but I assume there's a list in a header or lua file somewhere 03:23:43 the in-game item name should work? 03:23:59 all base items 03:24:11 hmm 'boots' didn't work... it didn't error or anything but no boots were foun either 03:24:17 I think you nee d "pair of boots" 03:24:17 hi kilo :) 03:24:28 ahh ok 03:24:37 so it's the same as the in-game description 03:24:42 thanks evil 03:25:49 i'm learning to make vaults and unique monsters. those vault definition files are pretty cool 03:28:36 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 03:28:44 hmm. 03:28:46 -!- ogaz_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 03:29:44 yeah pair of boots did the trick :) thanks 03:30:09 one thing that can be helpful (especially with vault monsters) is to create them with &M in wizard mode 03:30:21 the syntax is the same there 03:30:40 i was doing that before i built the vault but now I'm using &L 03:30:50 Zaba: excellent, I have made veto do what I want 03:30:52 mwa ha ha 03:31:16 if banded mail doesn't exist anymore, does plate armour have the same EV penalty? 03:31:33 otherwise going from one below plate to plate means you only get 1 extra base AC for an extra 2 EVP, considering the base AC changes 03:33:16 i don't suppose there's any way to place pairs of boots without accidentally placing bardings? 03:33:46 due, I hope it isn't too hacky ;P 03:33:54 Zaba: not at all 03:34:51 due, what happens when a PLACE map gets vetoed by the veto chunk? 03:35:13 I am about to make PLACE + veto = Lua error. 03:35:20 Well, des syntax error. 03:35:25 umm 03:35:39 due, what if there are multiple PLACE vaults for the same place and only one gets vetoed? How is that an error? 03:35:43 Hm 03:35:58 I suppose that is not too problematic 03:36:04 But it'll cause the builder to fail if there aren't any maps 03:36:12 that's normal, that's what already happens 03:36:17 ah 03:36:18 okay 03:36:48 well, then I will leave it as-is 03:37:49 But I suppose it is better this way, because otherwise it will place Jory again 03:37:58 Which I need to look into because it should just plce nothing, not re-place an already placed unique 03:38:09 Thoguh that may break the Fight Club. 03:41:25 hm. 03:42:32 oh neat 03:42:47 so map_def::validate_map_def is never called, either 03:43:06 ... joy 03:43:52 but.. why 03:44:17 or os it 03:44:17 is* 03:44:41 due, ah! The level compiler calls it 03:44:43 03kilobyte * r0a7d188c3aa0 10/crawl-ref/source/ (describe.cc directn.cc output.cc): Fix several uses of mon_info->mon(). 03:44:53 03kilobyte * rac1883441c1e 10/crawl-ref/source/ (art-func.h behold.cc): Fix an useless use of mon_info by the obsidian axe. 03:45:08 which is conveniently hidden in util/. I keep forgetting that it's in there and that it's also part of crawl. 03:45:36 hahaha 03:45:38 but that makes sense, since it validates the map during compile-time 03:45:40 does any of that check vetoing? 03:45:53 no, the level compiler doesn't call the veto chunk, either 03:46:43 oh good, so ti is completely unused 03:48:16 like prelude and another else 03:50:22 hey kilobyte i think u forgot to check something in 03:50:32 kilobyte: well, veto will be used now 03:50:37 Wop: like? 03:50:50 Projects/crawl/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/entry/twisted.des:163: unknown monster: "tengu" 03:50:58 no 03:51:01 Wop, recompile crawl 03:51:04 recompile 03:51:05 i did 03:51:07 kenku got renamed 03:51:08 oh wait 03:51:09 i didnt 03:51:11 lol 03:51:14 you didn't :) 03:51:31 due: we do need a way to pre-reject vaults anyway 03:51:42 kilobyte: This kind of does that, which is nice 03:51:53 kilobyte: However, I'd still like a random_map_for_X-time pre-rejection mechanism 03:51:56 so adding veto support just for Jory is kind of pointless 03:52:07 it's a minor change now 03:52:15 basically one line of code 03:52:30 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:52:39 yeah, it won't work good enough for vaults with WEIGHT and so on 03:54:09 another thing: what's the difference between veto and validate? 03:54:19 on the first glance, they seem... redundant 03:54:21 validate runs after the map has been placed 03:54:28 veto runs before the builder even attempts to place the map 03:54:35 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 03:54:36 validate makes the builder retry generating the _single_ vault 25 times 03:55:04 which causes unpleasant slowdown 03:55:17 it's for such cases when, say, there's a randomization that makes the vault isolated one time out of 100 and you want to avoid that 03:56:03 (in my opinion, you should just make the syntax for the vault not ever cause isolation but schmeh) 03:56:05 so you put in a check for that in validate, and it makes the builder regenerate the vault until the validate block succeeds 03:56:15 due, yes, bad example, but it's hard to come up with a proper one :P 03:56:26 "that's because there isn't a proper one!" 03:56:46 it's basically used for paranoia 03:57:06 yeah, I used it on a wizlab 03:57:21 due to one of the randomisation functions being unpredictable 03:57:23 I forget which 03:57:33 Oh, I never checked that map in 03:58:22 oh well 03:58:33 while I suppose veto is meant to make it reject the map in question, pretend it's been placed and immediately try to place another one 03:59:25 where I've put the call is possibly still going to d othe 25 loops thing 03:59:34 but the call will cause each loop t oend early if the veto fails 03:59:57 eh 04:00:04 oh beh, prelude is the only chunk saved into the index... yet for some reason it gets stripped anyway 04:00:06 you're describing what validate does, no? 04:00:12 no 04:00:20 maps.cc:resolve_map_lua 04:00:30 Zaba: it won't retry 04:01:00 Zaba: if the vault is vetoed, I don't see any code for the builder to immediately try another one 04:01:26 so it won't run the lua, do fixxup, or resolve, or run the validate. 04:01:57 (which, from my playing about wwith preplace, seemed to be where the slowdown was) 04:02:03 due, the loop is in write_vault 04:02:14 if I read it correctly, for a primary vault it will make it fail, causing a fallback to layout / etc 04:02:34 Zaba: yeah, and the code will cause resolve_map -> resolve_map_lua to return early 04:03:07 due, which will in effect do the same as the validate chunk failing? Or no? 04:03:25 validate will do the same thing but it'll happen later in the process 04:03:43 after 1) running the vault lua, 2) running fixup, 3) running resolve, and then 4) running validate 04:04:06 it seems to be a minor thing, but significantly enough that it made it a lot faster 04:04:09 yes, which makes completely no difference apart from that validate can run checks on the generated vault and veto can't 04:04:53 yeah 04:04:55 oh, and the logic of the return value is inverted, I guess? (veto returning true means the same as validate returning false) 04:05:02 yup 04:05:06 well bloody hell 04:05:15 how long will generating the vault take then? 04:05:34 if i'm wrong and it doesn't take that long then I'll just use validate and noot push this 04:05:47 who cares? Depends on the amount of processing power and stuff :P 04:05:58 meh 04:06:06 i will push, you can fix up after me as usual ;D 04:06:22 you could make the veto block reject the vault once and for all with no retries 04:06:31 hm, I could 04:07:11 okay, let's do that 04:07:57 then it'd be at least _somewhat_ possible to differentiate it from the validate block in documentation and such :P 04:08:23 kilobyte, yes, at the moment there is no retrying, I was talking about hypothetical behaviour for the veto chunk 04:08:36 what's wrong with "identical to validate excpet with inverted logic and it happens three lines of code earlier" 04:08:58 because it doesn't tell anybody but you and me what the hell the difference is supposed to be, nor does it justify the confusion :P 04:10:03 :( 04:10:05 true 04:11:17 kilobyte, too hypothetical, perhaps, since implementing that would require some heavy code restructuring 04:11:59 restructuring would be good,though 04:12:08 dungeon.cc is the stuff of my nightmares -- even after the awesome work you have done to it 04:12:44 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 04:14:29 well, it's pretty straightforward (at least the part that builds vaults), just not very logical 04:15:44 i should lock you in a darkned room to make you write a step-bye-step explanation of the process 04:16:50 I'm quite afraid of having to code retry in 589739486734 places 04:18:20 I'm just afraid, period 04:18:31 right 04:18:33 pushed! 04:20:06 03due * r9d2b1f517c42 10/crawl-ref/source/ (4 files in 4 dirs): New Crypt end (El Kab), make veto Lua chunk do something. 04:20:16 03due * re88a35eb8487 10/crawl-ref/docs/develop/levels/advanced.txt: Update docs for veto chunk. 04:20:17 03due * rb45cf1b8cba1 10/crawl-ref/source/maps.cc: If a map vetoes, don't keep trying to place it. (Zaba) 04:20:23 you can just do 'return you.uniques("Jory") :P 04:20:47 yeah 04:20:49 tired :p 04:20:58 i am going to pound my piano for a bit, ciao 04:21:15 (one of these days i will compose something usitable for crawl; I keep wanting to do "theme for the orb" or something) 04:22:40 -!- ais523_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:23:39 sound support has been unmaintained for years 04:23:46 (thank gods) 04:24:32 -!- ais523 has quit [Disconnected by services] 04:24:35 -!- ais523_ is now known as ais523 04:25:59 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 04:31:36 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 04:41:57 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 04:50:29 sounds would be awesome! 04:56:19 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:56:21 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 04:59:43 sounds would be hell 05:00:03 OSX builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-1767-g0a7d188 05:00:21 "you hear someone counting gold" 05:00:54 clink, clink, clink. 05:01:26 all text should be narrated imo 05:01:51 Jelly slurps. 05:01:57 Open the door to an undead room for a "boo!" 05:02:48 yes lets run all log messages thru espeak 05:03:38 hmm actually does the log go to stdout? would be easy to pipe thru 05:03:46 lol im gonna try it 05:07:04 that was... interesting 05:11:18 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:13:44 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:19:03 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 05:29:16 heh 05:32:11 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:32:43 -!- Flex has joined ##crawl-dev 05:33:16 -!- Keskitalo has quit [*.net *.split] 05:33:16 -!- Zaba has quit [*.net *.split] 05:33:16 -!- Fyren has quit [*.net *.split] 05:33:17 -!- Soyweiser has quit [*.net *.split] 05:33:17 -!- G-Flex has quit [*.net *.split] 05:33:17 -!- kilobyte has quit [*.net *.split] 05:34:55 -!- Soyweiser has joined ##crawl-dev 05:37:48 -!- Fyren has joined ##crawl-dev 05:39:40 -!- ais523 has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:40:15 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 05:43:19 -!- mikee_ has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Chicks dig it] 05:44:43 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 05:45:33 -!- kilobyte has joined ##crawl-dev 05:47:36 kilobyte: sound support in tiles shouldn't be too bad, though 05:57:12 -!- ais523_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:57:23 -!- ais523 has quit [Disconnected by services] 05:57:24 -!- ais523_ is now known as ais523 05:58:36 -!- Ragdoll_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:58:49 -!- Ragdoll has quit [Disconnected by services] 05:58:54 -!- Ragdoll_ is now known as Ragdoll 06:00:48 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 06:01:21 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:02:00 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 06:05:36 -!- Ragdoll_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:06:08 -!- Ragdoll has quit [Disconnected by services] 06:06:09 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:06:15 -!- Ragdoll_ is now known as Ragdoll 06:08:17 -!- ais523 has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:08:29 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 06:09:45 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 06:13:38 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 06:23:16 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 06:23:55 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:25:26 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 06:26:05 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 06:30:24 -!- ais523 has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:32:22 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 06:33:16 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 06:38:45 * Keskitalo lets out an evil cackle 06:50:57 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 06:54:01 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 06:54:17 -!- jle__ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:55:04 Constriction (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4868) by dpeg 06:59:44 -!- jle__ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:00:07 The wiki page on constriction is niiiiice. 07:04:07 mmmm new crypt map 07:04:47 yeah :) . I finally saw evil forest yesterday. now im missing one crypt end yet again. 07:04:52 due: i notice you set custom floor colours, but no tiles. mind if i go through it some time and try adding tiles there? 07:05:25 -!- ais523 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:06:08 floor_sandstone (ossuary floor) works well for an alternate crypt floor in vaults 07:07:16 oh actually never mind, I misread the des file 07:12:04 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 07:16:35 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 07:17:24 dpeg: The constriction page is really great 07:19:22 Keskitalo: thanks, thanks 07:19:25 -!- Brannock has joined ##crawl-dev 07:19:41 The numbers are made together with elliptic, to give credit where credit is due 07:20:00 Added a "no immediate re-constriction" rule today, to save some player cursing. 07:20:08 !seen mumra 07:20:08 I last saw mumra at Tue Nov 1 20:45:31 2011 UTC (5d 16h 34m 37s ago) quitting with message Ping timeout: 240 seconds. 07:20:11 :( 07:20:52 I should get back to the boulder beetles patch soon.. 07:21:02 Keskitalo: I was a bit surprised in how much detail you explained how to fork a retro version of Crawl. :) 07:21:34 ..me too :P 07:21:47 But it was fun, I suppose. 07:22:14 I should really comment on the Factory Dwarf wiki page. 07:22:57 !learn add constriction http://www.goblinscomic.com/09132011/ 07:22:58 constriction[1/1]: http://www.goblinscomic.com/09132011/ 07:26:08 hehe 07:26:38 Sounded like the patch was ready, but the branch didn't have the actual changes. I posted in the tavern thread. 07:26:55 -!- evilmike has quit [Quit: something happened] 07:31:03 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 07:36:59 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 07:38:19 Hi Cryp71c! 07:38:24 Morning 07:38:30 Hi 07:38:46 Am I the only to whom "Factory Dwarf" sounds a lot like "Wage Slave"? 07:39:02 lol...I could see that correlation :P 07:39:22 <|amethyst> "Glorious Proletariat" 07:39:44 BTW were there any changes to stab chance? Are stabs vs sleeping targets gauranteed, with the amount of damage being random(as usual)? 07:40:00 "Workers of the world: put your beards into the cogwheels of the machine!" 07:43:55 -!- Ragdoll has quit [Quit: Ik ga weg] 07:44:47 -!- Ragdoll has joined ##crawl-dev 07:45:33 -!- ais523_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:48:50 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:50:31 dpeg: you say "Factory Dwarf" and I tihnk we need a new vault "Dwarf Factory" 07:52:47 factory dwarf?] 07:54:01 race suggestion on the tavern 07:54:22 someone coded them and has been playing and tweaking them for a while 07:54:35 theres also a wiki page for it 07:54:40 with all the details 07:54:57 I like "Forge Dwarf" better than "Factory Dwarf"... but it's only the name. I am not fully convinced about the species as proposed, need more time to think about it. 07:56:40 -!- ais523 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:00:08 factory dwarf is an anachronism 08:01:42 I think the aptitudes are still a bit too tightly focused, but other than that the species seems interesting. 08:02:33 I thought about giving them a counterpart to DD's Recharging ability. 08:02:59 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 08:03:35 They could spend MP to enchant items (not randarts). 08:06:53 It would make them interesting as non-casters 08:07:02 which they currently really arent 08:07:42 just make sure they don't have too high fire/earth apts, i don't want them treading on lorc territory!! 08:08:16 is anything happening with lorcs? last i heard they had serious balance problems related to burning everything. 08:09:01 alefury: i don't really have the time to code them but if someone wants to take over, i have a pretty specific list of what i think would make them better 08:12:01 -!- Brannock_ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:12:01 -!- alefury has quit [*.net *.split] 08:12:01 -!- CIA-8 has quit [*.net *.split] 08:12:01 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:12:01 -!- ZorbaBeta has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:12:01 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:12:18 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:12:18 -!- Wop has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:12:18 -!- ZorbaGama has joined ##crawl-dev 08:12:18 -!- Pingas has joined ##crawl-dev 08:12:25 -!- syllogism has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:13:15 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:13:18 -!- Henzell has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:13:24 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 08:13:29 -!- Vandal has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:13:43 -!- MakMorn has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:13:44 -!- ixtli has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:14:08 -!- Brannock has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:14:13 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 08:15:58 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 08:17:32 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 08:17:32 -!- CIA-8 has joined ##crawl-dev 08:17:37 -!- MakMorn has joined ##crawl-dev 08:19:25 -!- CIA-8 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:20:30 -!- ixtli has joined ##crawl-dev 08:21:51 -!- Vandal has joined ##crawl-dev 08:23:55 -!- Henzell has joined ##crawl-dev 08:25:09 -!- CIA-55 has joined ##crawl-dev 08:28:26 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:29:47 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 08:29:54 -!- SamB_XP has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:30:04 -!- SamB_XP has joined ##crawl-dev 08:39:30 -!- Xiberia has joined ##crawl-dev 08:50:24 -!- DrPraetor has joined ##crawl-dev 08:50:40 -!- Amonchakad has joined ##crawl-dev 09:11:32 -!- ogaz has joined ##crawl-dev 09:14:33 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 09:15:04 -!- Amonchakad has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:17:32 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 09:28:05 <|amethyst> so I have something semi-usable with the new twisted res, but it needs work. Crawling corpses don't actively seek one another, but will merge if adjacent. They upgrade existing abominations (including small -> large, and including demonic abominations, which become undead). 09:30:16 <|amethyst> it costs 20.0 aum per HD at >=100 spellpower, 40.0 aum at 0 spellpower, with hit dice past 15 costing double. 09:31:27 <|amethyst> I still want to make it a monster spell, but that of course introduces complexities regarding attitude of merged creatures 09:32:20 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 09:33:42 It's preferable for them not upgrade large aboms, but small -> large is cool 09:34:21 <|amethyst> st_: if someone wants high-HD large aboms, they would otherwise be encouraged to revert to stacking 09:34:46 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 09:35:16 <|amethyst> the other though was that having fewer bigger abominations is less of a hassle to shuffle across levels 09:35:23 <|amethyst> s/though/thought/ 09:37:23 well if I wanted maximum amount of low-HD large aboms (this is the best choice) wouldn't I have to shuffle them around and then cast it?# 09:37:38 <|amethyst> hm... 09:38:28 <|amethyst> Yeah... I guess my version encourages leaving your abominations on a different level while you make new ones 09:38:41 <|amethyst> and dragging them off one at a time so they don't get upgraded 09:38:42 <|amethyst> hm 09:42:48 <|amethyst> well, it's easy enough to block merging into large abominations 09:44:00 <|amethyst> and I can increase the weight requirement to offset the increase in the number of abominations 09:44:13 <|amethyst> Still need to figure out what to do with "fractional" HD 09:44:28 <|amethyst> right now you always get at least 1HD from a corpse 09:44:29 increasing the weight requirements might be reasonable anyway, yeah 09:44:35 <|amethyst> which encourages scattering 09:44:46 <|amethyst> ("right now" in my implementation) 09:44:55 -!- DrPraetor has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:44:58 <|amethyst> I guess I could do fractional chances 09:45:31 # of chunks? 09:45:41 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:45:51 <|amethyst> that's based on weight, right 09:46:20 <|amethyst> ah, yes, weight/150 09:46:39 <|amethyst> so better than what I'm using 09:48:43 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:49:22 If there's not a smooth transition from small to large powerwise, that's really not a problem with the interface. 09:49:46 Even though you could make the interface kind of hide it. 09:51:20 <|amethyst> Fyren: it's a pretty big step now... 23 to 40 damage and -5 to -7 MR 09:53:01 Are they actually different sizes? Does it make a difference? 09:54:11 <|amethyst> SIZE_LARGE versus SIZE_BIG 09:55:19 <|amethyst> There is overlap in their HD ranges, too, but a player would probably never want a HD 15 small abomination over a HD 8 large one 09:55:39 <|amethyst> well, maybe at that size difference 09:55:48 <|amethyst> but not HD 15 small vs HD 13 large 09:56:18 I don't really know what difference the SIZE makes for monsters. 09:56:24 But can everything else be smoothed out? 09:56:34 <|amethyst> Hm 09:56:34 The MR gets multiplied by HD somewhere, does it? 09:56:47 <|amethyst> yeah, that's what a negative MR means 09:57:20 Maybe HD overlap could be removed, just pick a value for the MR, and raise HD/damage as it gets fed. 09:57:46 If the size is important I guess this might fall apart. 09:57:51 <|amethyst> small/large abominations exist outside the spell, though, and I didn't want to change those 09:58:06 <|amethyst> but HD overlap I am already mostly avoiding 09:58:24 <|amethyst> in my implementation, 11 HD and three corpses is the cutoff for large abominations 09:59:13 <|amethyst> the only way you can get a small (undead) abomination bigger than that is by merging two corpses with combined weight 240.0 aum 09:59:25 <|amethyst> one more corpse will upgrade it to a large 10:00:34 <|amethyst> (I use 6 HD and two corpses as the small abomination threshhold; one corpse is just a "crawling corpse" and two corpses with < 6 HD give a "macabre mass") 10:02:08 03dolorous * r0cf60961382b 10/crawl-ref/source/godprayer.cc: Make Kiku properly not shield you from torment while pain branding your weapon. 10:02:52 <|amethyst> kilobyte: regarding the mass-to-HD conversion, do you think 1 HD per 2 chunks (30 aum) is reasonable? And should that be the conversion at max power (200) or at reasonable power (100)? 10:04:01 <|amethyst> I think I'm going to change it to div_rand_round, once again giving the possibility of (small) corpses collapsing into pulpy messes 10:04:30 i like the names 10:04:34 <|amethyst> that way it would encourage neither stacking nor scattering to meet weight breakpoints 10:06:50 <|amethyst> "crawling corpse" was from kilobyte's implementable, with "pile of" deleted from the middle 10:07:26 <|amethyst> That seemed kind of alliterative to me, hence "macabre mass" for the merged version 10:08:24 <|amethyst> I considered a different name at each HD number ("macabre mass", "putrid pile", "horrid heap", ...) , but decided against it :) 10:09:41 sounds a bit Ubuntu to me 10:10:48 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 10:11:56 <|amethyst> haha 10:12:15 <|amethyst> I could name them after Toy Story characters instead 10:15:30 -!- valrus has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:16:04 Those spider-doll thingies *shudder* 10:16:04 <|amethyst> also, I'm not keeping track of rottedness anymore (rotted corpses just count for 1/4 the HD), so colour is based purely on HD 10:18:00 <|amethyst> pink at 21+/11+ for large/small; red at 16/8; brown otherwise 10:18:08 -!- ais523_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:18:09 <|amethyst> meaning you won't usually see pink small abominations 10:18:33 <|amethyst> unless you have a few huge corpses I guess 10:21:28 |amethyst: good stuff, sounds great 10:23:03 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 10:24:40 dpeg, I don't suppose there are any present desires to change how stabbing works? :P UCC has inadvertently torn it up, resulting in stabs only about 90% of the time, and on non-stabs, weapon damage seems to get scaled to a pathetic (low level) amount. 10:25:09 It would be easier to change the system than to go through and get it working properly :D 10:25:31 s/system/stabbing 10:30:04 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:36:13 03dolorous * r8f03d05847c2 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-ench.cc: Fix Mantis 4686: Properly restore toadstool duration. 10:36:48 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:38:46 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 10:42:33 when will sequell return? 10:44:45 -!- ogaz has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:46:38 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:48:28 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:55:19 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 10:57:51 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:59:29 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 11:00:13 03dolorous * r866a6d00163f 10/crawl-ref/source/ (skills.cc species.cc): Add minor cosmetic fixes. 11:06:46 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 11:24:52 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 11:27:50 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:28:32 -!- alefury has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Iceape 2.0.11/20110929064733]] 11:36:23 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:38:01 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 11:39:51 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 11:42:56 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 11:45:22 -!- elliptic has quit [Client Quit] 11:45:43 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 11:52:02 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 11:54:08 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 11:56:46 -!- MarvinPA_ has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:06:45 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:11:39 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 12:19:10 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 12:25:02 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:59:04 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 13:00:41 -!- Amonchakad has joined ##crawl-dev 13:01:24 -!- ogaz has joined ##crawl-dev 13:03:12 -!- Zannick has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:04:24 -!- Zannick has joined ##crawl-dev 13:05:52 -!- Amonchakad has quit [Quit: Page closed] 13:22:31 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:29:22 What would happen if we replaced Stabbing (the skill) by Dex (stat) throughout? (Perhaps have to make a substition like Stabbing := Dex - 5 or so -- this is just for a first impression) 13:30:12 no one will use it because they'll train int instead 13:30:16 it'd probably be a largish nerf to stabbers, except in a few early-game circumstances 13:30:49 stabbers are fine with 10 stabbing all game 13:31:01 elliptic: ah, you're here. Awesome! 13:31:02 the problem with stats over skills would be that you have very little control over them in comparison 13:31:15 also MarvinPA, even better 13:31:25 since you only get a few chosen stat gains over the course of the game 13:31:28 replacing stabbing with dex would require completely redoing stabbing for it to make much sense, IMO 13:31:42 My motivation is this: stabbing should be a function of the weapon (the smaller, the better) and Dex, imo. I don't see that we need a skill dedicated to it. 13:32:31 hmm, i remember suggestions in the past to merge it into short blades skill, too 13:32:46 dpeg: the problem is that currently a +0 dagger and 10-15 stabbing skill (depending on dex, which already plays a decent role) is enough to one-shot nearly all sleeping monsters 13:33:16 elliptic: doesn't that call for a change? 13:33:43 even 6 stabbing is plenty for everything early on, so if you don't base it on a skill then you are making "pick up a dagger and use it whenever something happens to be sleeping" really strong 13:33:55 i'd say it'd be good to rethink the damage a bit, yeah 13:34:07 MarvinPA: yes, this would also work: stabbing damage takes weapon skill into account (again, with the weapon weight or speed weighting), so that you cannot stab for free. 13:34:31 dpeg: perhaps, which is why I said "completely redoing stabbing" earlier... it isn't a simple change without severely messing up balance 13:34:52 elliptic: I understand but what you indicate is that balance is a bit off already now 13:36:17 If stabbing is meant to make short-blades better then can't you just deal with that through the skill? 13:36:31 otherwise it's effectively two skills to train for one weapon 13:36:40 stabbing should be meant to allow a completely different style of character, not just make short blades viable 13:36:47 alternatively, should it be expanded out to be "surprise attacks" and work for all weapons? 13:37:14 (if someone wants to try to sneak attack wearing full plate and wielding an executioner's axe then they'd better have plenty of sneak) 13:39:05 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:39:10 hey! 13:39:28 elliptic, MarvinPA: Do you think the prospect of such a change is hopeless? I'm not talking about 0.10 but I might spend some time to come up with a new formula. 13:39:34 rather easy if the enemy is paralyzed or asleep 13:39:57 stabbing 'skill' could perhaps be thought of as dispatching enemies silently, rather than doing tons of damage 13:40:02 i'd say it's definitely worth thinking about at some point, yeah 13:40:08 exe axe stabs should be huge damage but also incredibly noisy compared to knife stabs 13:40:14 There is also non-sleeping stabs (distraction). 13:40:49 maybe 'stabbing' skill is more about being good at finding opportunities to dispatch opponents gracefully (which benefits from weapon type/dex), than about 'megadamage' 13:41:08 and getting rid of the stabbing skill while doing so would probably be a decent direction to go 13:41:39 or at least having a think about the damage formulae and so on 13:41:47 I could see the skill as "additional xp investment if you want to stab"... only that the actual investment seems to be minimal. 13:42:07 dpeg: stealth 13:42:16 (or hexes) 13:42:18 right, you only really need loads of stabbing skill for either one-shotting the big boss uniques, or for getting the really cool level 27 title 13:42:47 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 13:43:54 Stealth is fine and useful to the end 13:44:05 elliptic, MarvinPA: Do you think the prospect of such a change is hopeless? I'm not talking about 0.10 but I might spend some time to come up with a new formula. 13:44:14 dpeg: it isn't hopeless, but will require a lot of care I think 13:45:24 the main issue is that monster HP doesn't really increase that much as the game progresses, so if you are one-shotting sleeping monsters in early midgame, you'll continue to do so for the rest of the game 13:45:36 so making it require a lot of skill is tricky 13:46:09 eronarn: what's the point of it if you aren't doing tons of damage? 13:46:14 cerebov = 600 HP 13:46:18 wait no, 6000 13:46:22 yeah that's better 13:46:53 elliptic: well it should still do a lot of damage :P i just don't think it needs to do as much as right now to be worthwhile 13:46:58 elliptic: for the purpose of minimal change, we could just subsume Stabbing under Short Blade? 13:47:07 eronarn: well your "noise" suggestions sound worthless to me 13:47:49 dpeg: some small change like that is possible, yes 13:48:07 but beware the complaining clubstabbers! 13:48:19 elliptic: that's more about providing different effects for stabbing with a dagger vs. stabbing with an exe axe - the latter will do more damage but won't be as compatible with stealth 13:48:31 * dpeg does not go to clubs anymore, unless they're really noisy. 13:48:38 eronarn: ah, okay 13:49:19 Okay, modified proposal: (1) Chance for distraction stab depends on Dex (alone); (2) for sleep stabs, replace Stabbing skill by weapon skill, weighted by weapon weight (alternatively, speed). 13:50:40 well, you can do whatever you want with distraction stabs without worrying about balance :P 13:50:45 i like 1) especially if you add in some spell that takes effect only on distraction stabs, for high-dex hybrid-y spellcasters :) 13:50:46 and what about confusion stabs? 13:50:59 elliptic: subsumed under distraction stas. 13:51:13 I want to make Dex worthwhile/relevant for those builds. 13:51:14 confusion stabs and distraction stabs are very different currently, you know... 13:51:20 no, I don't! 13:51:31 that could be changed though 13:51:42 monster conf is very strong compared to player conf, right now 13:51:45 also, I believe dex is already really really important for confusion/distraction stabbing 13:52:03 ??Stab 13:52:03 stabbing[1/4]: A successful stab with a short blade increases your damage from dam to (dam+bonus)*mult, where bonus depends on your dex and stab skill and is capped at 30, and mult depends on your stab skill and the type of stab (sleep/paralysis is best). Non-short blades don't get a bonus and have lower mult. Daggers get bonus doubled, so use one of those. 13:53:24 I think my main point is that we can get rid of the skill, make stabbing more interesting and Dex more relevant. 13:56:41 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:57:21 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 13:57:27 Global Notice] Hi everyone. You may know that we run a separate network for the purpose of testing future ircd versions. If you'd like to help test by checking for consistency between versions (eg, information visibility etc), join testnet.freenode.net port 9002 (ssl: 9003). Talk to us in #freenode-seven on the production network. Thanks, and have a great evening. 13:57:34 ugh this internet connection is awful 13:57:50 some comments I typed earlier but didn't go through 13:57:55 dpeg: currently enchanters use confuse on things that they can't sleep, and nobody uses distraction stabs 13:58:01 also I think confuse stabs do more damage and are more likely 13:58:05 not sure about that though 13:58:09 I guess stalkers do some confusion stabbing too, with evaporate 13:58:12 but there really isn't a confusion/distraction stabbing build 13:58:59 it's pretty hard for confusion stabbing to work in the endgame 13:59:33 elliptic: I've seen distraction stabs come up with my summoners -- not that I'd really needed them. 13:59:51 invistabbing against awake non-sinv enemies is the same? 13:59:56 even in midgame it is rough, since you need to successfully confuse the monster and then hit it quite a few times, probably confuse the monster again, and so on 14:00:04 But iirc, part of the idea was to make distraction stabbing more useful. 14:00:31 dpeg: then make it easier to get distractions 14:00:32 I learned from Erik that the Stabber's most powerful spell is Passwall :) 14:01:28 summoning is probably the only real way to get distractions right now, but a summoner who can afford to get into melee range to stab doesn't need to do so 14:02:13 yes 14:03:39 passwall has the large disadvantage of not working well if multiple monsters are in a room together 14:04:10 you passwall in, you stab one... but then the others wake up and you have no hope of stabbing them 14:05:04 or if monsters wake up because of noise and start wandering... again, you are out of luck and have to try something else 14:05:22 sure, but that's a stabber permanent danger 14:05:27 not really? 14:05:48 if someone shouts in a full room, that's it? 14:05:53 spells like EH or confuse or invisibility or petrify or confusing touch work on awake monsters 14:06:44 it is the same reason why assassins don't do much stabbing usually, though 14:09:32 If a monster shouts and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound? 14:10:55 something like SpAs can get a fair number of free stab-kills, but still enough stuff will wake up that you have to have a serious backup option... and then there's the question of why you are wasting experience on stabbing and stealth when they usually don't help you fight groups of monsters 14:11:46 elliptic: this seems to challenge the concept of stabbing as such. 14:11:58 an enchanter, on the other hand, can kill nearly every monster with stabbing 14:12:14 for what its worth, sleeping has the lowest stab multiplier, all other forms of stabbing have higher factors for calculating damage. 14:12:17 elliptic: don't enchanters have trouble with that in the endgame? 14:12:21 Cryp71c: uh, no 14:13:18 ogaz: even in zot, you can invisistab most monsters... all dracs, for instance 14:14:07 it is true that even an enchanter will need *some* plan when stabbing is hard... but at least stabbing can be the default option 14:14:36 elliptic, ah, stab bonus is used as the divisional factor, despite its name. 14:14:40 pardon the confusion. 14:15:46 When I did my SpEn in 0.8 I stabbed basically everything for three runes except the end of snake, Mennas, and orbs of fire. 14:15:52 Okay, so this is clearly too complicated for a quick proposal or even solution (at least for me) but perhaps something can emerge over time. 14:15:54 For those I just resorted to an army of Yred bone dragons. 14:16:25 dpeg: currently it looks like any stab that isn't sleeping/paralysis has a chance of (stabbing + dexterity + 1)/100 of success 14:17:04 we could certainly change that to (dex + 1)/50 or something like that 14:17:30 elliptic: sounds good. Only makes sense if we remove the skill elsewhere, though -- right? 14:18:26 well, not necessarily... the main effect of stabbing is damage 14:18:34 -!- heteroy has joined ##crawl-dev 14:19:13 Is there a specific amount of nutrition worth of food the hive and potential replacement portals are planned to have? 14:19:41 not particularly, as far as i know 14:19:44 dpeg: anyway, I'd like to see stabbing made more sensible... but it seems hard to me also :) maybe we can come up with something by the time 0.11 rolls around 14:20:17 elliptic: yes, let's discuss it from time to time. 14:20:21 There must be a good solution. 14:20:27 heteroy: there's a hive portal vault map in source/dat/des/portals/hive.des.disabled 14:20:44 MarvinPA, heteroy: this is not guaranteed 14:20:46 which is probably the one that will go in once kilobyte's level type overhauls are done 14:20:49 that too, yeah 14:20:57 There is a guaranteed food vault, though ("spriggan baker") 14:21:22 heteroy: do you encounter food problems in trunk? 14:22:27 no, but I thought there was going to be a guaranteed food portal ala old hive and was considering making an alternative portal for the hell of it 14:23:21 heteroy: no, it was planned like this for a while... to replace Hive with a guaranteed portal vault. Then someone claimed boldly and confidently that the Hive food isn't really needed, so now the portal vault is random. 14:23:33 Versions of this are welcome, of course. What theme would yours have? 14:24:09 halfling / human / whatever I decide orchard 14:24:38 so fighting is involved? 14:24:50 I would think so 14:25:04 (The Hive portal vault has larvae eating the foodstuff, creating a race minigame.) 14:25:17 dpeg: I haven't heard of people starving in trunk at all, yeah 14:25:36 I was hoping there would be some kind of guideline in terms of the amount of food/ exp gained in such portals. 14:25:59 * dpeg wonders what people have been doing with the heaps of food in previous versions then. Probably illegal trade and commerce. 14:26:18 heteroy: sorry, not yet 14:26:40 mostly leaving it on the floor for future adventurers 14:26:40 I never got why people starved that often, short of incredibly unlucky/poorly played spriggans. 14:27:00 And that one time I got abyssed in slime and couldn't find any food. 14:28:14 i had a character die because i didn't find enough food at all and monsters didn't leave enough corpses 14:28:19 before reaching hive 14:28:51 Zannick: that part is easier, now that contaminated always gives nutrition 14:29:01 yeah 14:29:27 that would probably have helped. i don't recall 14:29:48 -!- Flex is now known as G-Flex 14:36:34 Rather than have it be a separate portal would having it be a predesigned level replacement in swamp possibly be kosher? I could make the outskirts look like the swamp, 14:36:57 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:37:57 heteroy: yes. It would still compete with Hive about generation (i.e. at most one of hive portal vault, heteroy Swamp appendix, .... would be generated). 14:38:31 heteroy: Portal vault is useful if you want to bend rules, or introduce new ones, or set up a challenge (like with the honeycomb race). 14:39:19 I'm just especially interested in bringing some variety to swamp in addition to what I was suggesting. 14:40:30 heteroy: leeches with reverse constriction! 14:41:24 It might be nice to have one of the lair branches (snake / shoals / swamp / spider??) having a sub-branch like Hive (for spider), some kind of fruit-tree mangrove thing in swamp and so on 14:41:29 Rats of unusual size 14:41:43 err rodents 14:43:23 heteroy: sure, sounds good 14:43:39 heteroy: could even make it a serial vault 14:44:01 I've been working on a separate serial vault for swamp too. 14:44:10 <3 14:45:06 although most of the vaults really don't tie together that well so far. Are halflings off limits? 14:45:43 -!- Wop has joined ##crawl-dev 14:45:51 You could describe them as imported cattle to appease kilobyte. 14:46:37 gnolls seem to weak and already seem to have the dungeon going for them. orcs and elves have their own branches. 14:47:04 heteroy: for food vault or for serial vault? 14:47:23 serial. maybe vampires? 14:47:40 there could be a witch network 14:47:40 dwarves ;p 14:47:45 or you use elephants 14:48:23 Swamp Elephants that can submerge. 14:48:30 Can I get some hippos? 14:48:34 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 14:49:14 heteroy: you can re-name elephants or yaks into hippos. Needs tiles, of coure. 14:49:29 21:41:29 Rats of unusual size 14:49:35 megarats 14:49:52 Inconceivable! 14:54:11 Unique hippo named Griff. Flies. 14:54:26 the spriggan baker is too distinct, and appears in 50% games 14:54:50 so either he should be made more inconspicuous, or, preferably, get more alternatives 14:55:08 kilobyte: Ideas for alternatives? I feel like learning to make vaults. 14:56:47 when will sequell return? 14:56:57 kilobyte: hide his vault behind secret doors? 14:58:05 Wop: what's the point in that? 14:58:18 ghallberg: Potion assembly including a number of porridge. Food shop with guaranteed content. 14:58:31 hmm 14:58:36 kilobyte: well then he won't appear so much. only when monsters find the secret door. 14:58:51 or players i guess 15:00:03 oh it's the layout you want to change up, not how often it appears. my bad. 15:02:41 the requirement: 24000ish guaranteed unspoilable undestroyable nutrition. How to deliver? In as diverse set of ways as possible. 15:03:23 possibly reduced if you know other permafood generated 15:03:42 honeycomb hideout 15:03:44 -!- syllogism has quit [] 15:03:50 fedhas feast. 15:04:57 scrolls of cook chunks 15:06:53 -!- ogaz has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:08:43 -!- Brannock_ has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:10:13 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:10:23 fountains of porridge 15:12:07 lol 15:12:09 bread golem 15:12:15 orcish orange grove 15:13:01 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 15:13:23 -!- Brannock_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:13:31 is there a way to make vault baddies possess non weapon/armour? 15:14:30 a Sasquatch beef jerky guardian 15:16:11 You could just leave it on the ground. You don't have to kill the baker either iirc. 15:16:30 I know, but I was wondering if I could do it. 15:20:51 heteroy: not with des syntax but with lua (trigger something upon monster death(. 15:26:59 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:27:04 dhfh_alchemist 15:27:16 (four fields with random fruiting plants) 15:29:55 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:31:18 hmm, 14100 nutrition in one try, 13400 in another 15:39:08 More monster tile candidates (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4869) by roctavian 15:40:21 wanna use those kenku 15:41:50 how hard would it be to make a unique or new humanoid type with a boomerang weapon? maybe I can give him a pack of dingo or kangaroo 15:43:40 don't answer that. 15:56:28 returning weapon obviously! 15:57:59 stick of returning 15:58:28 just make it a fixedart 15:58:37 Nethack boomerangs are more interesting than returning, at least visually. 15:58:57 iood of returning, with a | tile 15:59:01 bam 16:00:47 that could be fairly interesting 16:07:18 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:08:22 -!- Textmode has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 16:15:48 -!- ogaz has joined ##crawl-dev 16:19:24 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: zzz] 16:22:38 -!- Ragdoll has quit [Quit: Ik ga weg] 16:24:26 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 16:32:17 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 16:34:49 lol, We're talking about how to change MD in reddit roguelikes, if they didnt get the axe 16:34:54 "Give them a beard slot" 16:35:35 to be fair, we're being silly 16:35:55 but the beard slot can wear an extra ring 16:36:39 And be enchantable. 16:36:40 :V 16:37:10 so far the ideas have been: extra ring slot, dwarf-only armour slot, armour that increases in enchantment with xl, and mutation 16:37:26 those are bad ideas 16:37:44 i said we were being silly 16:37:51 oh okay 16:38:30 .!learn add bad_ideas 16:41:38 wow 16:41:41 that's so incredibly dumb 16:41:51 how could someone propose an extra ring for dwarves and *not* minotaurs 16:41:58 Eronarn: ahahaha 16:42:04 'You tear our your nosering and replace it with a new one. Good thing you heal quickly.' 16:42:24 those tend to be a little larger than finger rings, though 16:43:48 Zannick: rings resize to fit their wearer 16:43:54 oh duh 16:43:56 they fit ogres, who have fingers like your wrist 16:44:28 is there any race that can't use rings? 16:44:36 no, and no transforms either 16:44:43 or wait, batform can't use rings maybe 16:44:55 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:44:56 bats have tiny feet. 16:44:59 ??batform 16:44:59 I don't have a page labeled batform in my learndb. 16:45:02 ??bat form 16:45:03 bat form[1/2]: An ability you get as a vampire at xl3. Grants minimum movement delay and gives a bonus to EV and Dex when unencumbered but cripples your Str. No spellcasting. 16:45:10 it seems odd that spriggans and ogres get to wear rings 16:45:44 also obligatory: 16:45:47 ??bat form[2] 16:45:47 bat form[2/2]: Eronarn the Necromancer (L27 DSNe), worshipper of Sif Muna, collapsed under their own weight caused by gaining the bat transformation on Lair:2 on 2008-08-27, with 538692 points after 150318 turns and 17:21:18. 16:48:55 !tell dpeg Let's give Mi an extra ring slot (nosering). Octos show that this can work, and they're the only race an extra ring slot makes sense for. Players will love it for softening the -MD blow. Devs will love it for allowing nerfing in some other way. 16:48:55 Eronarn: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 16:50:18 what's happening to MDs? 16:50:34 ogaz: they're being removed because 16:50:42 they've been removed * 16:50:53 too similar to HO? 16:50:59 ogaz: and Mi 16:51:39 ogaz: http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/whisper-farewell-when-you-leave-gimli explains it pretty well. 16:51:49 thanks 16:52:15 i strongly feel we should bring something MD-like back asap 16:52:20 preferably with the same name 16:53:37 Eronarn: HO is pretty close in terms of apts and HP and MP. 16:54:27 What is wrong with "armour that increases in enchantment with xl"? 16:54:44 ghallberg: balance problem if it increases more than normal ench limits 16:54:52 Well I guess. 16:54:55 otherwise, not that useful 16:55:06 and makes ench scrolls largely irrelevant 16:55:50 i think a race with bad apts that starts with 1000 GP would be really interesting 16:56:04 Hmm, what if you got a single armour piece that levels with you? 16:56:13 And you can choose what egos it gets? 16:56:21 ghallberg: that sounds more like a god thing 16:56:22 That would probably be annoying to code and broken. 16:56:28 Hmm yeah 16:56:32 I don't. 1000 gp is found reasonably quickly anyway once you do orc, and shops are too random. 16:56:49 Shops are too FEW! 16:56:58 at least in the beginning. 16:57:02 jle: but if you do orc, you now have 1000 gold pieces *twice* 16:57:22 in most games you can easily spend orc money on useful stuff 16:57:46 and in some games - not sure on %, but definitely noticeable - you find cool stuff in early shops that you can't afford to buy for quite some time 16:57:51 it doesn't have to increase more than normal ench limits 16:57:53 True 16:58:01 eg. +1 every 3 levels is +9 at 27 16:59:03 Silly haskell stuff, finish compiling so I can sleep! 16:59:05 Zannick: that wouldn't be very useful... basically just amounts to some free enchant armor scrolls 16:59:15 Eronarn: Sure, but do you really want to design a race around that possibility? If it doesn't happen you just have bad apts. 16:59:27 well, specifically to this new slot. 16:59:36 If it does happen, do orc earlier. :) 16:59:41 jle: i don't mean useless apts, just worse than they might otherwise be 16:59:49 you know, like the felid "your fur grows" message but for beards 17:00:00 Zannick: at that point why not just make it a mutation 17:00:12 i'm all for that, too :) 17:00:19 beard 9 17:00:37 Beard mutation gives + XL/3 AC and an extra amulet slot (you can tangle it in there) 17:00:47 !apt ice 17:00:47 Ice: Ce: -1, DD: -1, DE: 1, DG: -1, Dr: 0, Dr[black]: 0, Dr[green]: 0, Dr[grey]: 0, Dr[mottled]: 0, Dr[pale]: 0, Dr[purple]: 0, Dr[red]: -2, Dr[white]: 2!, Dr[yellow]: 0, DS: -1, Fe: -1, Gh: 1, Ha: 0, HE: 0, HO: 0, Hu: 0, Ko: 0, LO: , Mf: 1, Mi: -3*, Mu: -2, Na: 0, Og: -3*, OP: , SE: 1, Sp: -2, Te: , Tr: -3*, Vp: 0 17:00:59 i guess we don't have too many good ice casters 17:01:03 we could do ice dwarves 17:01:10 with icicle beards 17:01:29 Why not let them be MDs? 17:01:42 MDs weren't very good at ice 17:01:42 just happens to be a cold mountain, yeah 17:01:43 They live in glaciers, on mountains. 17:01:54 ogaz: They are now. 17:01:56 :D 17:02:06 ice dwarf is like the sludge elf to dwarves 17:02:22 they're good at sneaking, stabbing, ice magic, unarmed combat 17:02:24 Forge dwarves burned their beards off and DDs are evil twin dwarves. 17:02:33 Instead of haveing a goatee they are clean shven. 17:02:39 give them passive freeze, and also constrict! 17:02:49 and hellfire!! 17:02:54 also +rC 17:02:54 -!- Brannock_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:03:02 hellfreeze 17:03:06 oh man 17:03:10 beards give rC+ 17:03:11 hellfreezetornadostorm 17:03:12 beard could melt with fire magic 17:03:16 like how ice armor does now 17:03:28 and if it's melted you can't use your beard attack 17:03:31 guys 17:03:31 i found a solution to the md problem 17:03:35 make it a transmutation 17:03:36 Yes! The AC is from the icicles. 17:03:43 "moutain dwarf form" 17:03:46 Xiberia: mountain dwarf form? 17:03:49 Purely cosmetical? 17:03:50 Xiberia: that's dumb 17:03:51 haha eb 17:03:58 no 17:04:01 it's genius 17:04:06 "You cast MD transform. You grow a beard." 17:04:07 caster gets into trouble 17:04:10 what does he go? 17:04:14 MDFI form 17:04:19 shit it's GENIUS 17:04:26 !apt DD 17:04:27 beard hands 17:04:27 DD: Air: -3, Armour: 1!, Axes: 1, Bows: -3, Charms: -1, Conj: -1, Xbows: 1, Dodge: 1, Earth: 3!, Evo: 3!, Exp: 130, Fighting: -1, Fire: -1, Hexes: -2, Ice: -1, Inv: 2!, Long: 0, Maces: 0, Nec: 1, Poison: -2, Polearms: -1, Shields: 1!, Short: -1, Slings: 1, Splcast: -1, Stab: -1, Staves: -1, Stealth: 2, Summ: -1, Throw: -1, Tloc: 1, Tmut: -1, Traps: 1, Unarmed: -1 17:04:39 i wonder if we could mess with the nature of DD 17:04:56 like, what if we made MD amazing at charms, and DD amazing at hexes? 17:05:23 or, implement forge dwarves 17:05:28 and create their mortal enemies 17:05:32 freezer dwarves 17:06:29 for DD maybe something like... charms -> -3, hexes -> 2, short -> 1? 17:06:43 they can overlap more with something like kobolds on account of having a very, very different playstyle 17:06:56 !apt charms 17:06:57 Charms: Ce: -1, DD: -1, DE: 4!, DG: -1, Dr: -1, Dr[black]: -1, Dr[green]: -1, Dr[grey]: -1, Dr[mottled]: -1, Dr[pale]: -1, Dr[purple]: 1, Dr[red]: -1, Dr[white]: -1, Dr[yellow]: -1, DS: -1, Fe: 2, Gh: -1, Ha: 1, HE: 2, HO: -1, Hu: 0, Ko: -2, LO: , Mf: 1, Mi: -3, Mu: -2, Na: 0, Og: -3, OP: , SE: -2, Sp: 4!, Te: , Tr: -4*, Vp: 1 17:07:14 i think DDs are in a pretty good place right now 17:07:28 i don't see any reason to change them for the sake of making them anti-dwarves 17:07:48 we already have 2 races at 4 for charms and 2 at 2 17:07:50 that's pretty weird... de 4, sp 4, he/fe 2, vp/mf/ha/dr[purple] 1 17:07:52 yeah, DDs are already cool 17:08:22 !apt DE 17:08:22 DE: Air: 1, Armour: -2, Axes: -2, Bows: 1, Charms: 4!, Conj: 1!, Xbows: -1, Dodge: 2, Earth: 0, Evo: 1, Exp: 140, Fighting: -2*, Fire: 1, Hexes: 3, Ice: 1, Inv: 0, Long: -1, Maces: -3*, Nec: 2!, Poison: 1, Polearms: -3*, Shields: -2, Short: 0, Slings: -2, Splcast: 4!, Stab: 1, Staves: 0, Stealth: 2, Summ: 1!, Throw: 1, Tloc: 1, Tmut: 1, Traps: 0, Unarmed: -2* 17:08:28 SamB_XP: so were mountain dwarves 17:08:34 they only got changed because of other, non-mountain-dwarf stuff 17:08:40 03dolorous * r4a3d472d7a6f 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: Add spacing fixes. 17:08:46 Eronarn: and they are one-of-a-kind 17:08:48 03dolorous * rf14af955c2a5 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: Properly give guardian mummies the mummy species. 17:09:02 not saying there's no room for tweaking aptitudes 17:09:05 did DE used to have 4 ench? 17:09:20 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:09:22 or did they get affected by kilo's weirdness 17:09:56 !apt sp 17:09:56 Sp: Air: -1, Armour: -3, Axes: -2, Bows: 2, Charms: 4!, Conj: -3*, Xbows: 0, Dodge: 4!, Earth: -1, Evo: 3!, Exp: 130, Fighting: -2*, Fire: -2, Hexes: 2, Ice: -2, Inv: -1, Long: -2, Maces: -3*, Nec: -1, Poison: 0, Polearms: -3*, Shields: -3*, Short: 1, Slings: 2, Splcast: 3, Stab: 4!, Staves: -3*, Stealth: 4, Summ: -2, Throw: 1, Tloc: 4!, Tmut: 3!, Traps: 3!, Unarmed: -2* 17:10:05 for that matter why are sp charms 4 hexes 2 17:10:49 oh right they're still bows 2 too which makes absolutely no sense ever 17:11:01 !apt fe 17:11:01 Fe: Air: -1, Armour: 0, Axes: 0, Bows: 0, Charms: 2, Conj: -1, Xbows: 0, Dodge: 2, Earth: -1, Evo: -2, Exp: 150, Fighting: 0, Fire: -1, Hexes: 3, Ice: -1, Inv: -1, Long: 0, Maces: 0, Nec: 0, Poison: -1, Polearms: 0, Shields: 0, Short: 0, Slings: 0, Splcast: 0, Stab: 3, Staves: 0, Stealth: 2, Summ: 1!, Throw: 0, Tloc: 2, Tmut: 1, Traps: 2, Unarmed: 0 17:11:28 Eronarn: I was a bit surprised to find that they have the same aptitude for bows as for slings 17:11:46 SamB_XP: yeah, a normal bow is LARGER than they are :/ 17:11:52 halflings are the sling punks 17:12:02 spriggans are sprites with bows... cupid style 17:12:14 kilobyte: except that they don't have a 'pixie bow', they use normal ones 17:12:15 Eronarn: can't wield longbows 17:12:18 which are larger than they are 17:12:30 and i'm not talking longbows here, a stock normal bow is larger than a spriggan 17:12:41 a longbow is larger than a human 17:12:43 see also staves (a quarterstaff is like twice as tall as one) 17:13:04 Eronarn: doesn't mean they can't use it ... 17:13:12 kilobyte: yes but we don't treat a normal bow like a longbow for a spriggan, they wield them like anyone else (unless something has changed) 17:13:24 you don't operate it in the vertical orientation! 17:13:43 ...what? 17:13:49 a stave 17:13:57 oh 17:14:02 SamB_XP: it would be a pretty bad weapon for someone that short for a variety of reasons that should be pretty obvious 17:14:22 I never said it wouldn't be bad for melee 17:14:22 i'm not convinced they could effectively wield them at all, but i guess a -3 apt is a good start (iirc they didn't used to have this) 17:14:51 but they should be able to wield them because enhancers 17:15:08 enhancers have different stats anyways though 17:15:12 as weapons 17:15:13 <|amethyst> enchancers aren't quarterstaves 17:15:20 which is pretty confusing but, crawl 17:15:29 oh, right 17:15:43 I forgot they got changed to plain staves 17:15:46 <|amethyst> probably because of that change it makes sense to make qstaves unwieldable by spriggans 17:16:18 Eronarn: didn't you see the new lame staves? 17:16:23 have we considered having 'staff' and 'quarterstaff' and having both show up 50/50 for both normal weapons and magical ones 17:16:36 welcome to like a month ago 17:16:46 oh okay not quite like that 17:17:00 MarvinPA: grad school 17:17:02 yeah, I don't think the magical ones are ever quarterstaves 17:17:09 i'm barely ever in here nowadays 17:17:10 but yeah there are plain staves now 17:17:10 oh man it's october 17:17:14 and magical ones are those 17:17:37 actually though i already knew about that change, what i was saying was have the base type appear plain, and have magical ones able to be qses too 17:17:55 this would make spriggans too tiny to wield some (but not all) staves 17:18:12 aren't plain "staff"s actually generating anymore? 17:18:29 I admit I haven't seen any in a while 17:18:31 oh, i didn't realize plain ones generated, when i heard the convo they were just going to be filler 17:19:23 anyways the real important question is when is someone going to step up to finish lava orcs 17:19:23 they do, not as a part of the massive early set though 17:19:34 Eronarn: too many big problems IMO 17:19:38 starting with Beogh 17:20:13 kilobyte: beogh already protects your orcs from stuff, just plain make lava orcs not hurt normal orcs at all if both are beoghites 17:20:16 what's the problem with Beogh? 17:20:30 Eronarn: how does he protect them? 17:20:41 kilobyte: the blessings and such 17:20:44 Eronarn: and if he _could_ protect, why wouldn't he shield you all the time? 17:21:01 kilobyte: because gods are jerks in crawl 17:21:01 presumably he pays extra attention to lava orcs because they are orcs and he wants orcs to work together 17:21:03 exping up 17:21:07 it's really not a stretch :P 17:21:36 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: n8] 17:22:05 also, like 90% of the heating mechanics is pretty flaky 17:22:08 alternately, 'Your orcs keep their distance from your fiery rage!' if we really can't have beogh just shield them 17:22:18 or even just bar beogh worship until it's figured out 17:22:24 really not a major problem compared to the other stuff 17:22:52 luring monsters three levels away to a 1x1 pool of lava suggests something is damn wrong there 17:23:11 kilobyte: some of that's bugs; some of that's balance issues; some of that's just due to not having good calibration 17:23:57 by which i mean it's hard to eyeball what tension level to expect at various points in gameplay (and it's a moving target, because the tension calc should be adjusted) 17:24:15 but that sort of thing is basically impossible to test as a single person, you need players playing a large variety of characters across much of the game 17:24:23 <|amethyst> can't beogh just hate lava orcs? 17:24:54 obviously this shouldn't happen for .10 but we can do something similar to what was done with octos where they got disabled when it was time for 'real' testing 17:25:01 that seemed to work pretty well 17:25:38 |amethyst: the whole reason they're "orcs" is an attempt to get them Beogh :p 17:25:55 huh? that's not true 17:26:30 i mean, the flavor i wrote up for them, they are beoghites - but that came way, way after lava orcs were invented by ##crawl 17:27:11 someone just proposed lava orcs and everyone loved the idea for being too silly 17:27:17 -!- petete has joined ##crawl-dev 17:31:18 -!- DrPraetor has joined ##crawl-dev 17:36:27 !tell evilmike I actually didn't end up setting any custom colours, that's just an artefact of when I did. :) 17:36:27 due: OK, I'll let evilmike know. 17:37:59 Eronarn: hmm you're right, it was an one-off joke by TGWi 17:38:19 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:38:25 21:43 < TGWi> crawl needs yetis 17:38:25 21:43 < TGWi> @??yeti 17:38:25 21:43 < Gretell> unknown monster: "yeti" 17:38:34 21:43 < OG17> snow orc 17:38:34 21:44 < TGWi> at war with the lava orcs 17:38:56 actually, we do need a snow race! :D 17:39:13 why not yeti, then? 17:39:20 ice trolls 17:39:24 kind of 17:39:38 yetis are cool 17:40:20 what was wrong with making it the new mountain dwarves? 17:40:33 due: Abominable Snowdwarf? 17:40:48 Sludge Dwarves 17:41:08 Slush Dwarves 17:41:16 slushie dwarves 17:42:02 due: couldn't find a "mountain dwarf bat", but "carpathian dwarf mountain bat" could work 17:42:11 dropping the geographic name 17:42:25 so it's just an incorrect order of adjectives 17:43:21 :D 17:43:25 snow dwarf! 17:43:48 ice dwarves 17:43:50 icicle beards 17:43:56 it melts if they get hit with fire 17:44:11 they're constrictors, having immense grappling skill and passive freezing and a stabby beard 17:45:13 could give them a multibrand thing: they do some extra cold damage on all attacks 17:45:25 kind of like how wights drain even if they have an ego weapon 17:45:50 ego beards? 17:45:55 beard of holy wrath 17:46:00 disadvantages: weak to fire, leaves trail of water droplets monsters can follow 17:46:12 (ooh, what if they didn't eat and had to rely solely on drinking potions for nutrition?) 17:46:57 potions of blood 17:47:16 potions of poison 17:57:06 Eronarn: is it intentional that invisible monsters ignore recite? 17:57:20 like, when you're preaching to a group of orcs 17:58:22 kilobyte: what happens if you preach while you're invisible? 18:01:15 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 18:04:58 you can preach just fine, and orcs can't use the sound to find you 18:05:08 (beyond being woken up) 18:07:47 -!- mumra has joined ##crawl-dev 18:10:13 beard rations 18:13:49 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:18:41 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 18:20:06 kilobyte: that might be a side effect of using is visible or something 18:20:21 though it did come up in discussion, now that i think back 18:20:37 because of removing the piety cost of recite, being able to use it to detect if there are invis monsters on screen, or whether to print messages for them, etc. 18:23:37 recite never had a piety cost AFAIR 18:24:21 if the monster is already there and turns invisible during preaching, though, he's still in range and can hear you 18:24:58 -!- SamB has joined ##crawl-dev 18:25:38 is there an easy way to test the vaults I've made for the swamp? 18:27:00 change them to WEIGHT: 9999999 for now, and press &^R &{ 18:27:21 (if you rely on them being naturally placed, that is) 18:27:34 in most cases &L is enough 18:27:36 i'd want to see them on a swamp level though 18:28:16 weight 9999 etc is probably good enough to force them to appear asap in swamp 18:28:26 kilobyte: originally recite was intended to have a piety cost, but to give piety back from using it regularly 18:28:32 this didn't happen though 18:28:49 do I need to get the character to swamp manually to test? 18:29:03 (i mean the design for recite - in game it never made it to CDO afaik) 18:29:24 I just realized the wizard menu had a pagedwn 18:29:33 but yeah, hitting invisible monsters is probably overall good, but there were definitely a few reasons why it didn't happen, so expect weirdness i guess 18:37:05 -!- mumra has quit [Quit: offski] 18:43:57 -!- Brannock_ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:58:10 03kilobyte * r047a5ef38544 10/crawl-ref/source/ (main.cc mon-info.cc player.cc player.h): Auto-id rings of see invis. 18:58:20 03kilobyte * rb42c4f46f08a 10/crawl-ref/source/describe.cc: Fix a wizmode crash on viewing monster descriptions. 18:58:30 nice. 19:01:18 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:05:55 arggh why does it refuse to place my vault in Swamp? 19:09:42 -!- medgno has joined ##crawl-dev 19:19:17 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 19:24:04 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:24:46 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 19:25:04 <|amethyst> If I want to change an existing monster's type, is there anything I should do beyond: save enchantments, set mons->type, define_monster(), restore enchantments? 19:25:41 <|amethyst> oh, and save/restore HP, which I'm doing anyway 19:27:08 -!- Pingas has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:27:23 -!- Pingas has joined ##crawl-dev 19:28:45 <|amethyst> I guess (some) flags also need to be saved/restored 19:30:07 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 19:32:31 <|amethyst> maybe it would be better to add a flag to monster_polymorph to disable messages and then use that 19:50:18 -!- alefury has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:55:17 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 19:55:49 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:57:08 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 19:58:29 I'm going crazy. for some reason my vault refuses to generate in branches other than dungeon. 20:02:47 -!- HangedMan has joined ##crawl-dev 20:05:55 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 20:14:18 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 20:22:10 03evilmike * r85d8c4baa162 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/pan.des: Add restrict_door() to a Gloorx Vloq map. 20:23:29 Evening 20:27:06 hello 20:34:56 MarvinPA: is it possible that ignite blood could work badly with the miasma facet? 20:35:04 clouds not stacking and whatnot 20:36:39 what's ignite blood? nec/tmut? 20:38:05 Xiberia: hmm, well ignite blood is more likely to trigger when you hit a monster and make it bleed, whereas miasma only triggers when a monster smacks you in melee and will definitely land on the right square 20:38:26 how does ignite blood work with lava orcs :( 20:38:34 more fire!! 20:38:35 it's a demonspawn mutation, so it doesn't :P 20:38:38 oh 20:38:43 that's... weird 20:39:01 MarvinPA: ignite blood does seem to trigger a fair bit when getting hit though 20:39:09 might be because i'm really squishy right now 20:39:22 MarvinPA: fwiw, people liked lava blood on lorcs 20:39:31 it would probably be a fun spell too, but i wanted to make an alternative fire facet mutation and it was the coolest/only idea i had 20:39:49 MarvinPA: the idea seems solid 20:40:04 having it actually rely on blood splatters is very flavorful because it means if you get hit by an axe for a million points then suddenly EVERYTHING IS ON FIRE 20:40:08 lava blood was sort of the inspiration, yeah 20:40:16 MarvinPA: it *feels* a bit too good right now however 20:40:45 i whack something a suddenly everything is engulfed in a sea of fire 20:40:48 Xiberia: well my worry was that it'd be too weak 20:40:54 so that's a good thing to hear at least :P 20:40:57 blood can splatter to up to 8 squares so you could do something like 'splatters the foo', 'splatters your enemies', 'splatters all of your enemies!' 20:41:00 i can tone down the amount of bonus blood you get 20:41:44 bonus blood? 20:42:02 (this would also be a good excuse to add a hemophilia mutation: normally bad (bleed a lot more so blood scent, chanceo f getting bleed status effect whenever you're hit), but possibly good for people who have LAVA BLOOD 20:42:23 MarvinPA: do demons bleed? 20:42:29 i'm not sure 20:42:33 probably not 20:42:34 no 20:42:39 maybe just some, or none 20:42:40 they should though 20:42:50 some can be poisoned so probably some ought to have blood 20:42:53 i dunno really 20:42:55 i think mutations that stay relevant in case you feel like going for the extended lategame are much more interesting than those who not 20:43:18 MarvinPA: demons are kind of weird in that we have multiple demons that are like 'FOG, BUT A DEMON', 'A SHADOW, BUT A DEMON' 20:43:18 do not* 20:43:35 Xiberia: right, but in this case it'll at least be your tier 2 facet 20:43:47 the tier 3 ones are a bit more extended-endgamey 20:44:09 some of the tier two ones stay very relevant though 20:44:32 so you feel sort of cheated when you get miasma or pbd when you're planning for extended 20:45:13 mm, true 20:45:43 this could probably be solved by making one of the tier two mutations guaranteed to be one of the shorter game focused ones 20:45:48 that means nerf the more powerful ones 20:46:06 but that would also reduce the amount of possible mutation sets you could get 20:46:06 powered by death at least works when you kill hell hogs or hell hounds in the hells! 20:46:13 -!- SamB has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:46:14 03evilmike * r189d62d71cce 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-floor.txt: Darken the pandemonium floor tile colours a bit. 20:46:17 or hell knights or necrophages 20:46:25 pbd should work with kiku's recieve corpses! 20:46:30 necrophages? what 20:46:33 it really shouldn't work on undead corpses 20:46:35 Xiberia: it does but weirdly 20:46:44 you have to actually kill somethnig very recently 20:46:46 like, i guess you have to kill something to trigger it 20:46:48 that leaves a corpse 20:46:53 then if you summon corpses you get a million hp per turn 20:46:54 then you ask for more corpses 20:47:06 powered by death is also beautiful in zigs 20:47:11 MarvinPA: isn't there an upper limit though? 20:47:18 i don't think so 20:47:19 HangedMan: not in the harder levels 20:47:25 like holy/pan lord 20:47:25 well yes 20:47:34 but those are always agonizing 20:47:52 MarvinPA: you should make pbd drain the corpse in some way so it can only be used for one heal 20:48:00 it does make for good fun in the mid-tier range of nasty things, like fire/ice/elec or qorfs 20:52:37 -!- ogaz has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:11:42 Xiberia, PBD does work with kiku's corpses 21:11:46 it makes for excellent synegy 21:11:49 synergy* 21:12:08 apparently it only works if you kill something after dropping corpses 21:12:14 Except...well, PBD probably needs some tweaking, activating it is kind of screwey 21:12:33 Yeah, you gain the PBD status only after killing something, with % chance (IIRC) based on the level of PBD 21:12:49 Then, for every turn you have the PBD status, you gain bonus regen based on the number of corpses in a certain radius, regardless of their source. 21:13:12 Actually, you always get PBD when you kill stuff, but the duration varies based on your mut level. 21:13:27 Xiberia, as a reminder :) Would <3 some more facets for my DS buddies, if you can think of some ideas. 21:13:33 I'd help, but I'm bogged down in UCC. 21:13:54 Eronarn, oh, and PBD does increase the decay rate (quite significantly) of corpses. 21:14:18 Cryp71c: i had some ideas... i'm just really bad at writing stuff down 21:14:25 i'll get around to it some day! 21:18:09 -!- ogaz has joined ##crawl-dev 21:19:38 Cryp71c: did you see the umbra stuff? 21:22:10 03elliptic * rf1b1a1a02fa1 10/crawl-ref/source/player-stats.cc: Make Jiyva stat shuffling take into account how much weight you are carrying. 21:24:47 -!- evilmike_ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:26:45 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:26:51 -!- evilmike has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:30:44 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 21:38:03 -!- jeanjacques_ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:40:38 -!- jeanjacques has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:45:58 -!- medgno has quit [Quit: Quitting] 21:48:24 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:54:22 hi mikee_ 21:54:30 wow it's ogaz 21:54:32 hey 21:54:47 yeah, it's been a while, I started again last night 21:54:52 you must have heard about the exciting new nerfs and wanted to play crawl again 21:55:27 more like a friend was asking me for advice, and then I was thinking, hey, I should try this game again 21:55:42 it does have a lot of appeal :) 21:56:02 i have not played myself since the last tournament, though; i have started a doomrl trend instead 21:58:05 I see 21:58:14 I haven't played Doomrl in forever, I should try it again 21:58:22 i have about half of the dev team playing it 21:58:24 Everything has change 21:58:27 changed 21:58:35 DoomRL is so crazy different now 22:01:47 Eronarn, no, what umbra stuff? 22:02:05 what's new? 22:04:07 -!- HangedMan has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:04:31 Cryp71c: 22:04:34 @??profane servitor 22:04:34 profane servitor (05A) | Speed: 15 | HD: 18 | Health: 133-174 | AC/EV: 10/20 | Damage: 2505(vampiric), 1013(drain) | Flags: 07undead, evil, see invisible, fly | Res: 06magic(192), 02cold, 10elec++, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 08holy, 13torm | XP: 5585. 22:04:48 they have an antihalo, which shrouds everything in darkness :) 22:04:59 stealth boost, acc penalty - undead are not affected negatively 22:05:12 er, undead and demons 22:06:13 i added one to a crypt ending, mostly to see what kind of threat it poses 22:06:32 seems like a reasonable enemy, probably not worthy of a boss fight though 22:06:58 -!- jeanjacques_ is now known as jeanjacques 22:08:24 @??vampire knight 22:08:24 vampire knight (10V) | Speed: 10 | HD: 11 | Health: 44-94 | AC/EV: 10/10 | Damage: 33, 1505(vampiric) | Flags: 07undead, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(88), 02cold, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 1431 | Sp: vampire summon, paralyse, haste, invisibility, minor healing. 22:08:44 it's considerably stronger than vp knight, which is a boss in one crypt ending 22:09:01 they actually replace liches in vp church of pain 22:09:05 oh right 22:09:12 that version of church of pain is way easier than the others though 22:09:14 which can have like 3 liches 22:09:19 or mummies 22:09:25 easier but oh so annoying 22:09:45 i wonder if anyone has considered the spammals + zot trap combination 22:09:51 where are these things supposed to be? 22:10:04 ogaz: profane servitor is a yred gift 22:10:16 i think they can be found in the abyss too 22:10:17 i think they can spawn in abyss/hell too? 22:10:44 Eronarn, nice, I like! 22:11:54 rarely, yeah 22:12:08 for comparison: 22:12:11 @??angel 22:12:11 angel (16A) | Speed: 15 | HD: 12 | Health: 84-119 | AC/EV: 10/20 | Damage: 25, 10 | Flags: 08holy, see invisible, fly, !sil | Res: 06magic(128), 10elec++, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 08holy | XP: 2087 | Sp: minor healing. 22:12:12 @??profane servitor 22:12:12 profane servitor (05A) | Speed: 15 | HD: 18 | Health: 133-174 | AC/EV: 10/20 | Damage: 2505(vampiric), 1013(drain) | Flags: 07undead, evil, see invisible, fly | Res: 06magic(192), 02cold, 10elec++, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 08holy, 13torm | XP: 5585. 22:12:51 anyways the reason i bring it up is, you could have demonspawn facet using umbra 22:13:25 it's not like nightstalker where it affects LOS 22:14:19 is there a place to check the names of monsters, tiles, features, etc. with regards to dev stuff? 22:16:22 mon-data.h has all the monsters in it 22:16:47 terrain.cc I think has all the feature names, starting at line 1684 22:16:56 where are the .h files? 22:17:02 that's also documented in one of the vault help files, but the list there is incomplete 22:17:13 in the source folder 22:17:36 here, you don't need to download it 22:17:36 http://www.gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/trees/master/crawl-ref/source 22:17:58 ooh thanks 22:22:46 -!- Brannock_ has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:28:42 <|amethyst> hm... if you cast twisted abomination in the abyss, the resulting abomination worships Lugonu 22:29:07 <|amethyst> not sure if this has any in-game effects 22:29:25 <|amethyst> s/twisted abomination/twisted resurrection/ 22:31:30 -!- Pingas has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:50:34 -!- Gretell has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:50:34 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:51:43 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 22:51:43 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: DCSS Development | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 23:05:15 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 23:11:18 -!- Remake has joined ##crawl-dev 23:11:45 -!- ixtli_ has joined ##crawl-dev 23:12:39 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 7.0.1/20110928134238]] 23:12:56 -!- ixtli has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:13:45 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:15:33 -!- Remake has quit [Client Quit] 23:19:23 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 23:19:23 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:23:41 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 23:23:41 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: DCSS Development | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 23:26:31 anyone know anything about the CDO outage? Napkin? 23:26:55 <|amethyst> Napkin disconnected when it went down 23:26:58 -!- petete has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:27:17 ah, good point 23:28:11 -!- Sequell has joined ##crawl-dev 23:28:40 <|amethyst> greensnark: thanks! 23:32:08 <|amethyst> hm... what does sequell think 'te' stands for? 23:32:51 yay Sequell is back 23:34:03 I'm trying to come up with a monster set for a swamp replacement level. It's mostly inside a castle that looks out onto the swamp. 23:34:03 |amethyst: it seems to be matching it to enchanTEr, but only doing so in 0.9 23:34:19 it is sort of puzzling, especially since it worked right on my clone without changes 23:34:24 I've done the layout, but no monsters 23:34:24 <|amethyst> not just enchanter 23:34:26 <|amethyst> !lg * te 23:34:27 37593. LexAckson the Sorcerer (L27 VpAE), worshipper of Nemelex Xobeh, escaped with the Orb and 8 runes on 2011-08-28, with 3588236 points after 158199 turns and 17:54:04. 23:34:33 <|amethyst> !lg * te -2 23:34:33 37592. pivotal the Ducker (L7 KoBe), worshipper of Trog, slain by a manticore on D:4 on 2011-08-28, with 554 points after 3316 turns and 0:09:51. 23:34:48 that's not right 23:34:56 oh, maybe the tourney? 23:34:59 !lg * 23:34:59 !lg * t 23:34:59 1347208. inspector071 the Thaumaturge (L11 DsVM), worshipper of Vehumet, slain by a spiny frog on Lair:1 on 2011-11-08, with 14844 points after 12535 turns and 0:54:02. 23:34:59 37593. LexAckson the Sorcerer (L27 VpAE), worshipper of Nemelex Xobeh, escaped with the Orb and 8 runes on 2011-08-28, with 3588236 points after 158199 turns and 17:54:04. 23:35:04 !lg * te 23:35:04 37593. LexAckson the Sorcerer (L27 VpAE), worshipper of Nemelex Xobeh, escaped with the Orb and 8 runes on 2011-08-28, with 3588236 points after 158199 turns and 17:54:04. 23:35:14 yeah, it is interpreting te and t as the same 23:35:26 <|amethyst> err 23:35:35 <|amethyst> hm 23:35:37 !lg * th 23:35:40 16990. reid the Conjurer (L14 DETh), worshipper of Fedhas, shot by a yaktaur captain (runed bolt) on D:12 on 2011-06-04, with 51550 points after 31241 turns and 3:34:55. 23:35:49 not th, though 23:35:56 <|amethyst> !lg * tb 23:35:56 37593. LexAckson the Sorcerer (L27 VpAE), worshipper of Nemelex Xobeh, escaped with the Orb and 8 runes on 2011-08-28, with 3588236 points after 158199 turns and 17:54:04. 23:36:18 -!- Remake has joined ##crawl-dev 23:36:49 I think sequell just isn't updated with the latest stuff on greensnark's repository 23:40:01 Remake saves the day, then :P 23:40:01 !lg * te 23:40:01 greensnark: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 23:40:01 -!- Remake has quit [Client Quit] 23:40:01 123. Kamina the Cloud Mage (L7 TeAE), slain by a sky beast on D:6 on 2011-11-08, with 1068 points after 6014 turns and 0:16:41. 23:40:01 Should be fixed now 23:40:01 why would a vault crash the game only 1/5 times? 23:40:01 greensnark: thanks! 23:40:01 Happy to help. I hadn't realized Sequell was dead 23:40:01 <|amethyst> greensnark: yay! and thanks for applying my henzell patch a while back 23:40:01 Thanks for the patch 23:40:01 That was for the learndb.html right 23:40:01 <|amethyst> yeah 23:40:33 * greensnark off to bed. 23:40:53 <|amethyst> night! 23:51:51 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection]