00:02:12 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 00:02:25 hey dev 00:04:29 -!- Mottie has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:06:47 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 00:09:46 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:15:04 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 00:17:59 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 00:18:29 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:19:05 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 00:19:33 -!- ainsophy_ has joined ##crawl-dev 00:19:33 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:21:52 -!- ainsophy_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:23:28 -!- phyphor has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:27:43 -!- phyphor has joined ##crawl-dev 00:43:52 -!- Brannock has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:00:08 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 01:03:21 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-1594-gb76dd12 (32) 01:18:30 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-1594-gb76dd12 01:27:28 Lugonu's "Enter the Abyss" ability doesn't say anywhere that it reduces max HP (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4835) by valrus 01:28:31 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: bmh] 01:30:45 I must confess to being a little sick of the pointless rehashing of stupid comments on the blog. 01:33:01 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:33:08 -!- chukamok has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 5.0/20110615151330]] 01:41:12 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 02:15:31 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 02:21:17 -!- evktalo has joined ##crawl-dev 02:22:22 Amazing response in the blog. Worthy of a barrel of popcorns! 02:23:54 they're pretty repetitive 02:24:20 Well, to be serious I'm quite impressed with how emotionally attached people are to their Mountain Dwares. 02:25:27 I also think that the point about familiarity is a good one, but still we don't need to go by it. 02:26:20 familiarity _alone_ should never be the reason to add/retain anything :P 02:27:52 My favourite comment, third paragraph: https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/whisper-farewell-when-you-leave-gimli#comment-782 02:28:54 "negativity and hostility should rule your decisions!" well, maybe I'm misconstruing that :P 02:29:09 i like the guy who doesn't want to play hill orcs, because of racism 02:29:25 " Hill orcs are out because I don’t want to be a filthy orc, and they also go in my mental bucket of ‘the only reason to play this race is if you wish to worship Beogh’. Silly perhaps, but not all feelings are rational." 02:30:24 Poor orcs. :( 02:30:42 Well then again, Beogh is pretty racist in turn. 02:31:37 ??racism[2] 02:31:37 racism[2/7]: < mikee_> the orc jeers, as orcs often do 02:33:05 !seen wensley 02:33:05 I last saw Wensley at Sun Oct 30 03:49:05 2011 UTC (3h 44m ago) saying not really a big rush :P on ##crawl. 02:33:06 Sorry evktalo, I haven't seen wensley. 02:33:32 Wensley: https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4812 02:34:29 why do we have two henzells 02:34:43 ??why 02:34:43 why[1/5]: Because Crawl hates you, that's why. 02:37:45 hi! 02:37:57 Hi Nap King (: 02:38:05 i'm on weekend vacation :) 02:38:32 hihi @ millions of comments about removal of MD! Nice :) 02:38:41 hey Eino :) 02:39:34 unbelievable the green snark was online! 02:39:35 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:40:13 kilobyte: as always, when you give me that error message.. cd $HOME first :-P 02:40:37 or hardcode the pathes 02:42:07 greensnark: elliptic has the exact date (and a fix) in his scoring branch, at what time 0.9 morgues started to be saved in 0.9 folder. cheers! 02:42:26 off to make eggs now - see you Wednesday o/ 02:43:29 -!- evilmike_ has joined ##crawl-dev 02:44:24 mmm egggssss 02:46:38 -!- evilmike has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:47:26 -!- evilmike_ is now known as evilmike 02:59:10 minor FR: it would be nice if the shopping list tracked items individually. Currently if you add, say, two wands of the same type but different charges, and then buy one, all the wands of that type get removed from the list. 02:59:38 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 03:03:28 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 03:10:53 Yeah, makes sense for consumables. And stackable rings and stuff.. 03:33:08 -!- evktalo has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:33:21 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 03:37:13 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 03:38:03 -!- valrus has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:16:04 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:16:20 -!- Arian- has joined ##crawl-dev 04:21:05 Hmm. We could use the %back command to compose monster tiles with auras etc, from a monster "body" tile and a separate aura tile (that could be re-used). 04:58:38 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:06:40 03Keskitalo * reeaecd65959c 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: Let wyverns fly. 05:06:51 03Keskitalo * r1fe77f064f01 10/crawl-ref/source/ (43 files in 9 dirs): Several redone tiles and adjusted tiles from roctavian (#4805). 05:06:51 03Keskitalo * rda166e77d29a 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-mon.txt: Fix automatic bordering for several tiles, broken in af4fe25. 05:06:51 03Keskitalo * rbd8d23cba669 10/crawl-ref/INSTALL.txt: Remove mentions of domake.sh and dolinks.sh from INSTALL.txt. They're long gone. 05:06:58 they... couldn't fly?? 05:09:40 evilmike: No. 05:13:46 nome and squarelos activity, cool 05:17:08 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 05:17:48 Okay, I think I'll lclose comments on the blog-post. 05:17:56 Because nobody is saying anything constructive currently 05:19:00 due: it might be better to just let it peter out, or perhaps find something new to post about 05:19:13 if you close comments, people will just get more upset 05:19:44 and fork to dwarfcrawl 05:19:52 It's up to you, but I've seen how this sort of thing can get out of control... 05:20:09 Have you seen the latest batch of comments? 05:20:26 yikes, up to 42 now 05:21:17 And I'm not entirely sure what you think is going to result from "out of control"? 05:21:17 I mean, I know what you mean 05:21:37 But why would it matter if they got angrier? 05:21:46 this spilling over to the forum or elsewhere, or people saying things like "if we disagree with the devs they just close the discussion!!" 05:22:13 The forum doesn't come into my inbox :p 05:22:19 "That’s it. I’m done. Every release you’ve removed an RP staple and replace it with some gimmicky off the wall thing. Why don’t you just drop the current tile-set and switch everything over to Dragon Ball Z graphics and be done with it. I’m so sick of “gotta be different just to be different”. I’m guessing the devs won’t be satisfied till every single thing Linley put in the game is gone and replaced with their own stuff, because that 05:22:44 In what way is that disagreeing with the devs? 05:23:14 Anyway, I don't think I can disable comments. 05:23:34 well, I was going to also suggest, if you _do_ block comments, the best way to do it would be silently 05:23:47 eg, just let them submit but dont approve them 05:24:08 Well, yes, but there are a number of people with approve capacity who will just automatically approve them :) 05:25:14 i wouldn't have a problem with letting people make fools out of themselves if they are posting ridiculous comments 05:25:50 * due shrugs 05:27:07 the only reason to take action would be if they are likely to influence someone else into getting the wrong idea 05:27:07 it's also just my experience (I've dealt with things like this before, first hand) where closing off comments just makes things worse. You get short term relief but later on people talk about how you never listen to them, and would rather just plug your ears, or whatever... all nonsense, but that's how it goes with stuff like this 05:27:07 and well, who is going to be influenced by something like that? =P 05:27:07 evilmike: My point was more along the lines of "who cares?" 05:27:15 There will always be people like that -- there are already people like that. 05:27:38 But do you want more of them? 05:27:59 What exactly are these more going to /do/? 05:28:07 post more shitty blog comments :P 05:28:38 or at least, find other outlets 05:28:49 People /always/ disagree with what we do. Heck, we disagree amongst ourselves often enough. 05:31:04 I have to say, "gimmicky off the wall thingy" has a really nice ring to it. 05:31:37 I know, and that's fine. And you shouldn't let that influence actual game design decisions, of course. But when it comes to dealing with the community, I think the best approach is the one that results in the least anger 05:31:37 It rather does. 05:31:41 this isn't really about crawl, it's just about dealing with people 05:32:30 Remove darkgrey from evilmike_wizard_prison (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4836) by evilmike 05:32:41 * due shrugs. 05:33:18 Apart from megabats, crawl doesn't exactly have a history of cappitulating to its userbase. 05:34:17 What layout is this? Do we have anew layout engine? :D 05:34:44 No need to. I'm not suggesting capitulating, or even throwing a bone in any sense that affects the game itself. In fact, I think the best thing to do is just ignore these guys, and not take any visible action (eg closing a thread) 05:35:15 Eh, it was a selfish whim on my part. 05:35:30 And more of a capitulation to my own OCD of having to read emails. ;) 05:35:36 heh 05:36:08 i have an OCD of not reading emails 05:36:09 what was that about a layout? if it was in reply to the thing I just submitted to mantis, it's only a patch that removes two lines from a vault header 05:36:27 evilmike: no 05:36:36 evilmike: I'm on D:8 and I've got this cool kind of wavey level 05:36:40 oh 05:36:45 evilmike: All meandering passages. 05:36:45 kilobyte made that, it's neat 05:36:49 (nb: havne't played in months) 05:36:51 okay, brb! 05:40:10 03evilmike * r1a5a63f3aa1f 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/large.des: Remove problematic darkgrey colours from a vault. 05:45:06 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:47:01 ihlosi (L27 HuCj) ASSERT(feat_is_solid(feat)) in 'beam.cc' at line 1114 failed. (Geh:7) 05:47:40 * due eats Keskitalo. 05:47:48 eek 05:50:48 "It is dark, you may be eaten by a due."? 05:51:14 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 06:00:03 OSX builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-1594-gb76dd12 06:02:12 -!- Pingas has joined ##crawl-dev 06:03:56 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 06:06:40 -!- evilmike has quit [Quit: something happened] 06:40:48 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 06:41:29 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:49:24 due: not sure what problems you have with kenku, which have little D&D influcence, when we have draconians 06:49:33 100% dragonlance 07:10:21 why does the amulet of gorumand auto-id but rings that modify hunger rate don't? 07:11:18 gourmand changes whether you can eat chunks while not hungry 07:12:36 before it auto-IDed, people just used this to check whether amulets were gourmand 07:14:23 rings of hunger take several hundred turns to id even if you're watching your hunger level 07:25:53 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 07:26:59 not really 07:27:09 or not always 07:27:47 maybe it's because I am playing trolls and staying at engorged when I can, but I can tell them both relatively quickly 07:29:16 I guess I could engrave it with what I know it is, but that wouldn't help me if I found another would it? 07:34:19 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 07:38:44 -!- valrus has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:40:21 so I still think that removing MD was a good decision in the long run, but perhaps we should have worried a little more about removing the single most popular race in 0.9 :P 07:40:49 (I hadn't realized it was actually the most popular race, though I knew it was pretty popular of course) 07:42:17 (interestingly, it is somewhat more popular among webtiles users) 07:47:07 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 07:47:35 elliptic: it was greatly more popular among beginners... 1. all tutorials point to them, 2. they were indeed overpowered 07:47:58 right, a certain amount of it was just the effect of everyone recommending MDFi for a long time 07:48:12 remember the flowchart: http://crawl.chaosforge.org/images/d/d2/Crawl-flowchart.jpg 07:50:29 incidentally, I hadn't realized how popular Wz is 07:51:09 it has led the sum(dur) popularity measure (i.e. how much time people are actually spending playing each class) every version since 0.6 07:51:11 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:51:34 crawl's tutorial always recommended MiBe over MDBe, the change has been coming since the dawn of SS. 07:53:15 Certainly when I started in the wilds of, what, 0.5? It was MiBe. Then the heavy armour nerf arrived. 07:53:53 -!- Torokasi has joined ##crawl-dev 07:55:21 -!- elliptic has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:13:14 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 08:16:06 03evilmike * r3f6e89c32902 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/mini_monsters.des: Buff door vaults. 08:16:16 03frank * r03a7e9caa1cd 10/crawl-ref/source/beam.cc: show the item's name if you're throwing stuff at yourself 08:16:17 03MarvinPA * rb5d04e099809 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/ability.txt: Improve the description for Enter the Abyss 08:17:58 !tell evktalo Thanks for the heads-up! 08:17:59 Wensley: OK, I'll let evktalo know. 08:18:00 Unable to add your message to evktalo's queue, sorry! 08:18:40 SamB_Henzell is like Henzell's little brother 08:19:06 repeats everything he says 08:19:35 Mac OSX Tiles will not start. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4837) by RatherAFool 08:19:51 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:24:00 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:29:05 -!- MarvinPA_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:29:29 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:32:21 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 08:39:36 -!- RichardHawk has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:49:36 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:53:05 It'd be nice if every square in Swamp could be reached by water. 08:53:49 That'd be cool for an occasional D level too. 08:54:09 -!- RichardHawk has joined ##crawl-dev 08:57:56 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 09:00:54 !seen kilobyte 09:00:55 I last saw kilobyte at Sun Oct 30 12:48:12 2011 UTC (1h 12m 43s ago) saying remember the flowchart: http://crawl.chaosforge.org/images/d/d2/Crawl-flowchart.jpg on ##crawl-dev. 09:00:55 Sorry dpeg, I haven't seen kilobyte. 09:01:08 SamB_Henzell, you have to pay more attention! 09:04:28 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:04:53 -!- mikee_ has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- \o/] 09:30:05 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:30:26 -!- Mottie has joined ##crawl-dev 09:30:33 -!- Brannock has joined ##crawl-dev 09:33:30 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 09:37:41 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 09:52:11 !seen SamB_Henzell 09:52:11 I last saw SamB_Henzell at Sun Oct 30 14:00:55 2011 UTC (51m 16s ago) saying Sorry dpeg, I havent seen kilobyte. on ##crawl-dev. 09:52:12 Sorry phyphor, I haven't seen SamB_Henzell. 09:54:47 talk about short attention span 09:55:12 are there any changes planned for octopodes other than constriction? 09:56:56 Xiberia: don't think so... Well, Eronarn had some ideas. Why? 09:57:35 dpeg: i was just curious where the devs thought they were at 09:57:40 too good/too bad etc 09:58:28 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 09:59:13 Constriction is not just good because it makes Oc stand out more, it also helps player Na and, even more importantly, monster nagas. 09:59:34 Also, it is a good testing ground for a combat move, because of the limited access (only two species). 10:00:21 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:00:34 MarvinPA_: Hi 10:03:23 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:11:39 widespread reaching hasn't been widely liked either 10:12:04 my impression, though, is that no one who complains uses autofight 10:13:05 the lesson seems to be: combat needs to be straightforward on the interface 10:13:31 and doable on muscle memory, with no thinking unless you fight something dangerous 10:14:40 solution: only spawn dangerous monsters 10:16:41 kilobyte: I thikn everyone likes the reaching change 10:16:55 Eronarn: that is true, and I hope we'll get there 10:18:08 I think that's a bad idea. you need peaks and valleys in danger, or it just becomes monotonous. 10:19:02 ZorbaTHut: there is a lot of distance between status quo and what you describe 10:19:35 I agree with that, but I think going all the way to "dangerous monsters all the time" is a bad idea. I do agree that a slightly higher level of dangerous, at least in the mid- and end-game, might be good. 10:24:47 popcorn that is not annoying is not that bad. Monsters that are complex to kill but do nothing are the worst. 10:24:54 like, current ballistomycetes 10:25:45 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 10:25:50 completely unable to kill you even if you scummed some random disconnected vault for several thousands of turns 10:26:19 or, swamp worms in swarm, who mostly kill autoexplore 10:27:47 I think ballistomycetes fall under the same category as basilisks - harmless solo, but very interesting when combined with other creatures 10:27:55 I agree swamp worms suck though 10:28:08 swamp worms suck because of fleeing/submerging 10:28:27 honestly, about 80% of swamp sucks for that reason 10:29:50 maybe rename SInv to something like "acute eyesight", then make submerge ineffective against SInv? 10:36:10 03MarvinPA * r31f3d585bff2 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-goditem.cc: Make it easier to gain piety from pacification at low piety 10:36:11 03MarvinPA * re93b154bbb99 10/crawl-ref/source/godprayer.cc: Don't give Ely piety for mundane weapons/missiles after 1* 10:39:37 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 10:40:54 or "Sense" 10:41:16 "Intuition" 10:41:24 "Detection" 10:44:20 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:44:47 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 10:45:14 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 10:47:17 ZorbaTHut: what exactly can basilisks do? 10:47:28 ZorbaTHut: except for flavour, they're gila monsters 10:48:02 don't they petrify now? 10:48:11 even for EV chars, current petrification hardly does anything -- it's duration is effectively cut by 3 10:48:21 basilisks taste great, compared to gila monsters. they go great in stone soup 10:48:31 and for AC ones it's outright nothing 10:48:47 they can petrify you, which makes you unable to move, which means if there's anything nearby that can smite, do tons of damage per attack, or do big elemental attacks, then you are in real trouble. you can still kinda ignore physical attacks though 10:49:11 there usually isn't, though, due to lair 10:49:29 true, I think they're badly placed 10:49:33 elemental and smite damage is reduced just as well 10:49:35 they'd probably be more interesting outside lair 10:49:46 though admittedly I think that's true of everything that can possibly spawn inside lair 10:50:16 kilobyte, hmm, is it? well, then they sorta suck. they'd be more interesting if they just gave you a metric ton of AC 10:50:32 essentially, Statue Form plus Paralyze 10:50:45 wouldn't it be nice if being made of stone had anything close to consistent effects :| 10:52:12 eronarn, just rename every stone spell to use a different kind of stone 10:52:22 Paralyze becomes Graniteform, Stoneskin becomes Sandstoneskin 10:52:32 er, Petrify, not Paralyze 10:59:15 what about the suggestion of just reducing petrify's damage reduction? to dam/2 or something instead 11:01:21 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 11:03:15 -!- blabber_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:04:50 MarvinPA: go ahead. In my encounters, petrification was lackluster. Catoblepas could be awesome, just need fonetuning. 11:05:01 ZorbaTHut: flee/submerge won't be better if it requires SInv. 11:05:19 Interesting monsters (hydras) are allowed to flee, all others have to fight to the death, imo. 11:05:28 Also, someone made a reddit thread for MDs :) 11:05:54 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:06:13 haha yeah, i saw it 11:06:20 -!- blabber has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:06:22 i think that one has some of the craziest claims yet 11:07:50 dpeg, it'd be less annoying and would give you a decision to make 11:07:55 although also some scattered common sense, luckily 11:08:17 I agree it'd still suck though, and I agree that uninteresting monsters shouldn't flee. it's one of the reason I hate Lair 11:12:07 MarvinPA: they are writing such an amount of nonsense, and they keep quote the "dev channel". What is wrong with them? 11:12:48 MarvinPA: re Ely, the really main missing piece is swapping place with pacified monsters :) 11:13:05 ah good point, didn't spot that one 11:14:49 MarvinPA: is it worth replying on reddit? 11:14:56 so much bogus :( 11:15:10 hmm, i don't know really 11:15:19 i probably wouldn't do 11:17:20 for what it's worth, I completely agree with http://www.reddit.com/r/roguelikes/comments/lsonh/dcss_devs_give_reasons_for_getting_rid_of_mds_in/c2vdvz0 11:17:41 I've seen a few developers say that not every class has to be as easy as every other class, and I agree with that, but the rarely-stated converse is that not every class has to be as hard as every other class 11:18:19 hah, that's exactly one of the comments that falls under "craziest claims yet" :P 11:18:44 I've been playing since 0.7 and I agree. Most of the easier combos I'm aware of have been removed. 11:18:52 "things are nerfed because they're too popular" is a good one 11:19:03 also "devs are composed of some of the best players" 11:19:05 dpeg: replying on reddit for fact correction is even less of a good idea as doing it on usenet. don't waste your time 11:19:10 he's not saying they're nerfed because they're popular 11:19:25 he's saying they're nerfed because they're powerful, and they're popular for the same reason 11:19:30 those are the literal words he used 11:19:38 nerfing things because they're powerful is how development works, yes 11:19:44 alongside buffing things because they're weak 11:19:59 in a game where everything has to be balanced, yes 11:20:07 roguelikes are not that game, nor should they be 11:20:40 i guess that is the fundamental philosophy disconnect, then 11:21:14 ZorbaTHut: there is no 'balanced' or 'not balanced', only a range in between 11:21:25 dcss was too close to the latter, and now it is moving towards the former, but it is still far from it 11:21:48 there's always crawl light if you want intentionally unbalanced in your roguelike 11:21:53 eronarn, I'm honestly not convinced that's a good idea. I think having a spectrum of "easy" and "difficult" races is better. 11:22:08 ZorbaTHut: you mean like what we have? 11:22:09 that is an explicit design goal of crawl, yes 11:22:11 you can get players in with MfCr or MDFi, and then eventually they get to say "zomg I just won as MuFi" 11:22:22 and certainly exists quite nicely at present 11:22:25 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:22:26 okay, I'm getting conflicting comments 11:22:45 are you saying that everything is meant to be the same difficulty, or all races is *not* meant to be the same difficulty? 11:22:53 because you've literally just contradicted yourself in two lines 11:23:06 what 11:23:24 all races are not meant to be the same difficulty, that's not the same thing as having deliberately unbalanced features though 11:23:40 marvin, what's the difference between difficulty and balance? 11:24:06 I'm saying that intentionally easier combios are a good idea, and that the "balance" has generally taken the form of removing those combos 11:24:21 no it hasn't 11:24:25 that's not even close to true 11:24:28 MfCr, MDFi 11:24:41 balance has taking the form of closing the gap, it's not intended to make absolutely everything exactly the same difficulty though 11:24:47 has taken* 11:24:57 lol if you think those are the two things that make up balance in crawl 11:25:11 marvin, and I'm saying, once again, that I believe the gap should remain reasonably wide 11:26:00 go try a mfie and then a mufi 11:26:08 it is pretty wide, yeah 11:26:17 and removing MD didn't even make it any narrower 11:27:18 which is what makes most of the complaints particularly strange 11:28:19 *shrug* I personally disagree with that, MD makes a significantly better pure fighter than Mi does 11:28:21 MarvinPA: imo post that we're also removing mf because we needed a total of 8 limbs and amphibiousness cut from the game to make them fit 11:28:31 er, to make octos fit, rather 11:28:35 heh 11:29:26 According to the devs on IRC, it is more important that the first 30 minutes of a 5-10 hour game be the hardest part. 11:29:29 That is insane, and is just poor design. 11:29:32 lolll 11:29:35 yes put the hard parts of the game at the 10 hour mark only 11:29:51 (also we can add reddit to the list of supporters of removing HE, it seems like doing so would be unanimously appreciated!) 11:30:59 MarvinPA: give them negative saprovore :( 11:31:03 they're the only race that makes sense for 11:32:08 i agree it makes sense but i would still want to remove them if they had it :P 11:32:54 Now the only dwarf in the game lives underground 11:33:00 is that seriously a complaint that someone has 11:33:29 heh 11:34:56 There was one comment on how you could have differentiated the races rather than remove one, but on the whole it'sjust people bitching 11:35:01 !apt he 11:35:02 HE: Air: 2, Armour: -1, Axes: -2, Bows: 3!, Charms: 2, Conj: 1, Xbows: 0, Dodge: 1, Earth: -2, Evo: 0, Exp: 150, Fighting: 0, Fire: 0, Hexes: 0, Ice: 0, Inv: 0, Long: 2!, Maces: -2, Nec: -2, Poison: -2, Polearms: -2, Shields: -1, Short: 2, Slings: -2, Splcast: 2, Stab: -1, Staves: 0, Stealth: 1, Summ: -1, Throw: 1, Tloc: 1, Tmut: 1, Traps: 0, Unarmed: -2* 11:35:02 Couldn't open current/source/aptitudes.h for reading 11:35:21 !apt dodge 11:35:21 Dodge: Ce: -3*, DD: 1, DE: 2, DG: -1, Dr: -1, Dr[black]: -1, Dr[green]: -1, Dr[grey]: -1, Dr[mottled]: -1, Dr[pale]: -1, Dr[purple]: -1, Dr[red]: -1, Dr[white]: -1, Dr[yellow]: -1, DS: -1, Fe: 2, Gh: -1, Ha: 2, HE: 1, HO: -2, Hu: 0, Ke: 1, Ko: 2, LO: , MD: -1, Mf: 3, Mi: 1, Mu: -2, Na: -2, Og: -1, OP: , SE: 2, Sp: 4!, Tr: -2, Vp: 1 11:35:22 Couldn't open current/source/aptitudes.h for reading 11:35:34 switch he and mf dodge 11:36:04 ew, why 11:36:16 because elves are supposed to be really graceful 11:36:19 merfolk are, but only in water 11:36:31 they already have boringly good apts at everything 11:36:40 merfolk? yes :P 11:37:45 oh heh i just accidentally created terpsichore in wizmode by mistyping "ogre" as "ore" 11:38:16 is terpsichore actually functional again now? i seem to recall a bunch of tukima-related bugs getting fixed, maybe she could be re-enabled 11:42:08 03MarvinPA * r60b79e090b91 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-stuff.cc: Make Inner Flamed monsters leave behind some flame clouds on death 11:42:18 03MarvinPA * r4a1343257b9e 10/crawl-ref/source/ (monster.cc ouch.cc): Reduce the damage reduction from petrification 11:43:29 good evening! 11:47:56 greensnark: ping? 11:49:19 hi Napkin 11:49:34 can I bother you with a few questions? 11:50:06 03MarvinPA * r039cc788efad 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-transloc.cc: Don't spend a turn and create a tloc cloud when aborting Passage of Golubria on a -cTele floor 11:50:13 -!- chrisoelmueller has left ##crawl-dev 11:50:28 hey edlothiol 11:50:38 how's it going? 11:51:12 fine, thank you ;) 11:51:51 what are your questions about? i'm on vacations with some computer time at a laptop at the moment 11:52:26 about how DGL and especially trunk works 11:53:42 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 11:54:47 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 11:55:14 -!- Pacra has quit [Client Quit] 12:01:47 I am so close to announce HE removal on the blog :) 12:03:56 now, you're just mean. 12:04:05 but i understand, you have a reputation to hold up 12:04:35 ok, I'll content myself with saying "garden dwarf" then 12:08:53 dpeg: i like HE :( 12:09:39 Eronarn: I never cared, but it seems that MarvinPA really dislikes HE! :) 12:09:52 perhaps we could bring back glamour for them in a non-terrible way, if apt differentiation isn't enough 12:15:32 remove all the races \o 12:17:37 hm, sounds good 12:17:52 no species, no pesky players 12:19:37 add bags 12:20:20 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:20:34 I think it was promised that if nethack 4 was released, bags would be added 12:21:05 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 12:21:15 wasn't it even adding generic containers? 12:21:35 omg 12:22:39 -!- chukamok has joined ##crawl-dev 12:26:37 Adeon: well, no rush then, all signs point to no nethack 4 yet. 12:28:27 unless that's the reason Krystal's being so coy 12:30:46 highly unlikely. krystal's known for being incommunicado most of the year. 12:31:27 indeed 12:38:41 Is krystal an oracle or a developer? 12:38:57 the devnull tournament guy 12:39:06 barely alive 12:41:56 dpeg :D 12:42:04 Napkin: hi! 12:42:06 awesome post there! 12:42:17 pity I wasn't in when you wrote it :D 12:42:27 Napkin: seriously? Gotta admit I felt a littke unsure. 12:42:51 Napkin: would you have stopped me in my tracks? 12:42:56 I shed a short tear, mostly because of theme, but then I enjoyed all the comments 12:43:08 hell no, I think it's a cool decision 12:43:56 the title is also awesome, great translation :) 12:48:30 HE are another one of those tolkien races, aren't they? 12:51:06 I can understand the concern of 'not being different' enough than DE, but at the same time DE are a pure caster race while HE are more apt to some sort of melee 12:52:08 I remember when I played nethack fr the first time.. I heard about a fantasy game with roleplaying aspects 12:52:45 and i found the choice of races (valkyrie) quite weird 12:53:11 i would probably have a slightly similar feeling as a crawl newb 12:53:35 but on the other hand, the tutorial already picks up minotaur, so a newb would probably play that 12:54:40 for a newb, the presented selection is a bit overwhelming 12:55:06 yeah, let's make certain races stick out for them 12:55:35 well, I liked hill dwarf, mountain dwarf - i liked paladin and i do like high elf 12:56:08 what was the elf that got removed already? 12:56:10 grey elf? 12:56:17 grey and vanilla 12:56:33 that is, grey elf and elf 12:56:34 yeah, i never played them 12:57:33 pity there is no first of april soon 12:58:07 crawl reduced to 3 races, with a few additional jobs would certainly cause some heart-attacks ;D 12:58:52 which 3 races? :) 12:59:18 felid octopode vampire 12:59:27 definitely minotaur, considering the many "loved MD, hate Mi" comments :D 12:59:37 hehe, monqy 12:59:47 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 13:00:10 03MarvinPA * r5db97c4597fb 10/crawl-ref/source/monster.cc: Don't let monsters heal under Death's Door 13:00:15 i played vampire recently 13:00:32 Napkin, I dont get it, why hate the interesting play choice instead of the one that's just "Axes R us" 13:00:37 pretty awesome - way easier to tune your hunger-level than I would have thought 13:00:59 indeed, Mottie 13:01:33 that's why MD was boring 13:01:55 Because if you wanted to win you'd kinda go "okay pick up axes and the heaviest armor that I can carry" 13:02:01 well, i believe it's just the image of the dwarf 13:02:24 which i personally failed in very, very often, Mottie 13:02:44 i didn't think MD was too easy to play 13:02:55 Just one dimensional. 13:03:28 definitely it's a phenomenon 13:03:51 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 13:04:00 do i need to prepare CDO for incoming DDoS? ;) 13:05:04 back 13:05:06 Why would they get DDosed? 13:05:41 You know what would be interesting 13:05:43 Ok, Trog is still giving away ranged stuff... 13:05:46 if a player could create a race 13:05:49 like, custom 13:06:06 with X amount of points based on your Xp modifier and traits 13:06:28 humans should get that ability 13:06:40 because humans are boring and bad and dumb!!!! (imho) 13:06:42 Napkin: thanks for feedback. There is certainly some kind of hysterical mass reaction going on. Thank Trog that no money is involved. 13:06:54 let me guess, +5 in one weapon, -5 in all others 13:07:05 That would be the problem 13:07:10 +5 armour -5 dodging or the other way 13:07:12 but to stop minmaxing 13:07:17 each - is only worth -1 13:07:26 while +1 +2 +3 +4 +5 cost 1 2 3 4 and 5 13:07:31 bigger problem with weapons obviously 13:07:47 but to get +5 in a school you'd need to give up 15 points 13:08:11 I've been suggesting unlockables from time to time, with an option/keypress to unlock everything right away. This would make the starting screen less overwhelming to new players. 13:08:25 dpeg, Like ToMe? 13:08:42 except it'd be based on the amount of times you've played or something , or how far you've gotten 13:08:52 rather than side quests 13:08:59 but to get +5 in a school you'd need to give up 15 points 13:09:14 then again it sounds easy to -1 to the max in things you'll never, ever have a use for 13:09:21 well -1 is usable 13:09:46 and then twink your character to be the Greatest Ice Mage Ever 13:10:03 that being said, It could always be made so that you can only give up n points via apts. 13:10:17 or. 13:10:20 have the baseline be -1 13:10:42 making 0 = 1/2 point 13:11:40 how many skills total exist? 27? 13:11:54 35 13:13:35 getting 20 skills to 0 with a baseline of 10 points, that's a little low 13:14:19 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 13:14:24 I should put this in brainstorming shouldn't I? 13:17:37 just wiki, no brainstorming anymore 13:19:50 ah 13:19:52 i like unlockables, dpeg 13:20:39 what crawl needs is achievements 13:20:47 and hats 13:20:50 BlastHardcheese: there is a wiki page on that 13:21:02 some guy, jpeg and I brainstormed it once 13:21:49 well, achievements could be cool, personally in no game they managed to get my attention 13:22:04 "Welcome to Crawl" - First death to Sigmund 13:22:21 I only saw them once, in Amorphous+, where they worked wonders for me 13:22:41 oh, really? hmm.. 13:23:10 yes, yes, add conducts 13:24:11 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 13:24:18 Unlocks: The reason to play that HuFi 13:24:46 Needless to say, our achievements were a lot more interesting than that. 13:26:07 Just a question: Unlocks and Achievements would never be interlaced now would they? Unless if the achievements were part of normal play 13:26:34 like: you didnt have to do something crazy to get one 13:27:27 achievements are about motivating players to leave the trodden paths (on all levels, not just high end) 13:27:49 unlockables are to prevent new players getting overwhelmed, it is an interface-only way to hide some choices 13:28:29 neither of them is crucial and I wouldn't bet one of them actually makes it in 13:28:43 A lot more important are: hellspider, constriction, wrath, ... 13:28:56 I've never really dealt with wrath 13:29:06 constriction will make snake *gasp* interesting 13:29:29 I am excited for 0.10, there's an incredible number of cool changes in the works 13:29:34 off till Wednesday o/ 13:30:02 Napkin: see you then :) 13:33:44 Napkin: bye! 13:36:21 When Kirke is killed on a floor different than the one a hog is on, that hog remains in hog form (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4838) by smock 13:38:46 Oooh, the reddit thread is good fun too. We should make a starting screen pic where an octopode leaps over a shark or something. 13:40:13 haha :D 13:41:12 -!- Pingas has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:43:17 Nice comments from --o about what "community driven" means 13:44:03 Keskitalo: 13:44:08 ??erocrawl[4] 13:44:08 erocrawl[4/4]: Tiles version spash screens: http://i.imgur.com/1yi21.png (minmay), http://i51.tinypic.com/23t3y4y.png (Wensley) 13:44:24 -!- Pingas has joined ##crawl-dev 13:46:02 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:08:30 -!- Torokasi has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:11:02 After everyone and their undersized gran have told us about their love affairs with dwarves, perhaps we can proceed with the game? 14:11:20 ah, I thought you thought there was no negative feedback on MD removal? 14:11:35 I personally don't mind, I'm not convinced that Crawl's races are all that differentiated as-is 14:13:14 -!- Torokasi has joined ##crawl-dev 14:13:44 I propose more gimmicks 14:14:05 if nomes make it in by 0.11, I'd be ecsatic 14:16:35 you know, lava orcs are good in melee! :3 14:16:39 for people who think we do nothing for melee chars 14:16:48 ais523: I am used to negative feedback since day one. Every other proposal I made met with criticism, sometimes over the top criticism (cutting branches, removing species, divination cut, god changes, etc.) But for MD, players act as if they're paid by the CIA. The two or three actual arguments have been made, the rest is repetition (often mindless) and personal attacks. 14:18:39 dpeg: just pose it to the players: how would you differentiate minotaurs and MDs enough to warrant keeping both, without shifting the overlap to another race? 14:18:54 no idea, not my duty :) 14:19:21 I mentioned that once combat moves appear one by one, this may open up space among the melee species. 14:19:24 axe hands 14:19:38 beard hands 14:19:53 MDs could strangle things with their beard when they stab 14:19:59 Also, if they think that MD is part and parcel of DCSS, they can go and fork, blessedbeopensource. 14:20:16 dungeon crawl beard soup 14:20:39 "Waiter, there's not enough hair in my soup!" 14:20:53 make MDs worse than mi but they pay less gold for everything at shops 14:21:00 dtsund: are you planning to keep MD in Light? 14:21:19 Eronarn: no, they sometimes find gold when they dig 14:21:23 he'd be stupid not to -- it is *his* chance :) 14:21:31 haha 14:21:45 they could start with extra gold 14:22:08 MD starting with 500 or 1000 gold would actually be kind of cool 14:22:32 but refuses to spend it? 14:22:39 * dpeg is a bit surprised how deeply entrenched the axe dwarf mythos is with today's kids. Stupid Peter Jackson, should've stuck to the splatter movies. 14:22:59 goes back to D&D at least 14:23:00 dpeg: it's probably more related to fantasy in general 14:23:06 and by fantasy in general i mean D&D 14:23:10 fuck D&D 14:23:10 dpeg: Meh I blame books and D&D 14:23:22 dpeg: I remember Battle for Wesnoth having some fun with it, where they have a group of dwarves who use swords specifically because dwarves make swords too and they need someone to test them out 14:23:29 I blame the schools 14:23:34 half of the dwarves in tolkien were there to forge swords for people anyways 14:23:37 I told them that "dwarf" for me is "garden dwarf" and "snow white" :) 14:23:39 that's a nice inconsistency in traditional dwarven mythos 14:23:51 ais523: good stuff 14:24:00 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:24:02 dwarves should use picks really 14:24:07 and hammers 14:24:20 in Wesnoth, dwarf fighters use axes and hammers, and the more defensive ones use spears 14:25:35 I think axe-wielding dwarves probably goes back to Lord of the Rings 14:25:39 or maybe even further 14:25:58 it's a D&Dism afaik 14:26:14 well, most D&Disms were copied from LotR 14:26:18 originally 14:26:27 although it developed a few of its own after a while 14:26:38 yeah, not peter jackson, dpeg. tolkien ;) 14:27:03 Tolkien's Dwarves, much like their mythical forebears, are great metalworkers, smiths and stoneworkers. Fierce in battle, their main weapons are axes (referenced in many subsequent fantasy works), but they also use bows, swords, shields and mattocks.[19] Unlike other fantasy dwarves, Tolkien does not explicitly have them use war hammers. 14:27:25 Zannick: what the heck :) 14:28:37 dpeg: only because you don't know the right translation, don't destroy the dwarves for the dwarf lovers. "Gartenzwerg" -> garden gnomes! ;-D 14:29:07 bhaak: I learned from the thread that that's a neologism, the proper term would be "garden dwarf" 14:30:36 proper english term for a german invention? :) 14:30:49 yes! 14:31:47 dang, now i want to play DF 14:32:01 Eronarn: Oh. Me too :( 14:34:04 DF: sim city with fantasy creatures for people too embarrassed to play the Sims 14:35:45 if only it had that level of graphics 14:35:48 and UI 14:39:10 Zannick: Graphics shmaphics 14:39:16 UI though... 14:39:53 the sims doesn't have flying spider pig demons or magma 14:40:35 -!- chukamok has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 5.0/20110615151330]] 14:42:46 i don't remember where the axe thing came from. i've last read tolkien before the movies got out but i remember thinking watching the movies "how useful can an axe be underground in moria?" 14:42:52 i've always wanted to dig past the adamantium in sims 14:43:04 i just get bored doing all that interpersonal stuff :P 14:43:43 hammers make more sense, as usual the people use anything they have to build their own weapons 14:43:50 Zannick: just like in real life! 14:46:18 03MarvinPA * r53b9fe34aeba 10/crawl-ref/source/ (10 files in 2 dirs): Temporal Distortion: a new Chei ability to help against ranged attackers 14:53:54 ais523: I'm undecided on keeping MD. 14:54:02 To be sure, one of MD and Mi will go. 14:54:05 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 14:54:19 I like MD more, but I might make that one be the one cut for consistency with Stone Soup. 14:55:06 keep both, upgrade mi to large and buff some weapon apts 14:55:28 wait, consistency, never mind 14:56:11 Consistency isn't exactly a high priority, but I'll try to keep it when there's no serious reason to break it. 14:59:53 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:01:44 I actually think I once suggested removing one of the two races on the dev wiki a long time ago, come to think of it... 15:02:09 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 15:18:28 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:19:09 -!- RichardHawk has quit [Quit: Recalculating TATARI at "the crossing crossing"] 15:19:59 dtsund: it is all your fault!!! :) 15:19:59 Actually, making Mi a monstrous (i.e. large) race would be interesting 15:20:18 if you're adding combat moves it could headbutt, for example 15:20:38 how would heatbutt be a move and not just additional damage? 15:20:54 give it a trample effect 15:21:05 heabutt/sharge 15:21:08 err 15:21:09 charge 15:21:27 Crawl has so many bodyslot mutation races… 15:21:31 but as elliptic pointed out, trample is not always desirable (you can get it in dragon form already -- however, that is optional) 15:22:08 ais523: yes, we usually take "food mutation and/or bodily mutation". If it goes beyond that ==> gimmicky. 15:22:56 the problem is, it's just a bit repetitive 15:23:11 also, there's nothing wrong with a compulsory not-always-desirable effect tied to a race 15:23:36 it'd be a good-and-sometimes-bad change, which is more interesting than an always-good or always-bad change, and people can just be free to not play the race if they don't like it 15:23:36 ais523: for a species yes, for a combat move no 15:23:48 for a combat move, indeed it'd be a bit awkward 15:23:51 for a species it's fine though 15:25:12 I don't have an issue with a minotaur having minor-berserk like moments and charge-trampling during combat, but that's just me 15:25:19 (they do, after all, have the head fo a bull) 15:28:07 dpeg: Your response was that the plan was to make MD small, so they'd be sufficiently different 15:29:20 phyphor: making stuff large in crawl doesn't work well 15:29:26 neither does making stuff small 15:32:17 small MD had a branch for quite a while, didn't they? 15:32:45 and i think it didn't work very well for whatever reason 15:33:17 I think I remember the objections to that being something like "being small means they wouldn't be able to use things they should be able to use, and if they can use them, what's the point of them being small" 15:33:46 dwarven items would fit kobolds etc. 15:33:51 yeah that too 15:34:02 -!- rejuxst has joined ##crawl-dev 15:34:12 were dwarven items common enough for dwarves? 15:34:44 I imagine there would be some troubles with especially rare items like exec axes, which is of course what players of dwarves want 15:34:50 and no artefact exec axes for them either 15:37:01 Come to that, is there any reason artefacts are never racial? 15:37:13 yes, long descriptions 15:37:22 That is a very good point. 15:37:28 artefacts are racist 15:41:12 dtsund: we cut that some time ago (0.3?) 15:47:53 i actually cant think of a fantasy game where size differences were anything other than inconsequential or annoying 15:49:12 sp, hu, tr -- works 15:49:51 dpeg: not because of size, though - size is one factor, but sp / tr have a lot of other differences 15:52:24 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 15:54:01 -!- blabber_ is now known as blabber 15:59:57 -!- syllogism has quit [] 16:07:56 It may be possible to get small dwarves working, but since we're having trouble with Gn/Ha/Ko (one gone, another one on the block), it may be a pretty bad idea. I am fine with removal. 16:17:47 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:26:50 Halflings are on the block? I thought they were regarded as decent now. 16:27:07 kilobyte is still in anti-Ha mode :) 16:27:52 Then again, perhaps he doesn't update his precious prejudices: he still says that Zin is useless. 16:28:21 and no, there is no plan to cut them for 0.11 or something 16:33:44 -!- medgno has joined ##crawl-dev 16:34:05 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 16:41:24 dpeg: no, certainly not useless. Annoying, and that's a big difference. 16:41:43 kilobyte: tell me what you find annoying? 16:41:50 I assume that you played with new recite. 16:42:57 recite is a roulette, but damn overpowered whenever it works 16:43:13 okay 16:43:14 and if it doesn't work, you have to kite until it resets 16:43:29 kilobyte: but can you understand that someone else might like it? 16:43:36 yeah 16:43:46 I am confident that Recite is what Glamour always wanted to be. 16:44:03 note that I don't think Zin is bad -- I have a personal dislike due to roleplaying reasons :p 16:44:17 kilobyte: okay, then. Nothing wrong with some heartfelt antipathy. I assume you won't beocme best buddies with him in this life :) 16:44:38 it's probably a matter of getting used to 16:44:47 like, the "no food" conduct 16:45:01 yes 16:45:30 which is again a roulette: a ring of sustenance removes most of Zin's conduct 16:46:01 kilobyte: yes, but you have something like that for many other instances as well 16:46:02 it's kind of like you could get a ring of "Chei be ok with hasting" 16:46:04 not much wrong with that 16:46:29 the food conduct doesn't feel that strict to me most of the time, really 16:46:31 Zin is more than the food conduct, though, and slow conduct >>> food conduct :) 16:46:39 just means you dip into permafood a bit more frequently 16:46:44 MarvinPA: you have a plan for Cheibriados? 16:47:17 MarvinPA: depends on the branch, mostly. 16:47:24 not a big overhaul or anything, but that ability concept had been floating around for a while and i thought it might be worth a try 16:47:42 good! 16:49:57 MarvinPA: If I had recalled the small dwarves branch, I should have mentioned it in the blog entry. 16:50:32 yeah, i only remembered about it when the size discussion came up just now :P 16:51:12 not that it would have soothed anyone, especially since so many commentators claim that making Mi large would have obviously solved all problems 16:51:21 as if we didn't cut a large species too 16:51:47 well, the goal they're aiming for is differentiating md and mi 16:51:55 could you tell me ONE benefit of making Mi large? 16:52:08 because I'm missing something 16:52:38 why are any races large? 16:53:45 nothing wrong with Tr, Og large 16:53:54 Ce is fine too, but I don't see benefits of large Mi 16:55:59 i don't either, partly because minotaurs have the body of a human, not a giant, and partly because i don't really understand the function of large vs normal 16:56:57 Zannick: it is simple: less fashionable clothing, more fast food, more HP 16:57:17 right 16:57:58 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:00:42 Zannick: some minotaurs in fiction are larger than humans 17:00:52 ours happen to be 'bull headed strong humans', pretty much 17:01:13 Eronarn: which is what we get from the source, don't we? 17:03:41 dpeg: i don't think the source addressed scale 17:03:55 he was half human, but that doesn't mean he was the size of a human 17:05:14 sure, but bipedal and what we know about other Greek hybrids 17:05:30 Eronarn: ah 17:05:40 dpeg: apparently he was depicted as being the bottom half of a bull, top half of a man at some points 17:07:05 aha! 17:10:45 i like the ones as featured in D&D/mtg - horns, shaggy, hooves, about the size of ogres 17:10:48 wouldn't work well in crawl though 17:11:10 that'd be a yak species :) 17:11:31 we could make our minotaurs Reverse Yaktaurs 17:18:22 -!- HangedMan has joined ##crawl-dev 17:33:16 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 17:43:22 -!- rejuxst has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:13:46 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: gn8] 18:20:11 03edlothiol * r7476ad27f550 10/crawl-ref/source/webserver/game_data/ (6 files in 2 dirs): Webtiles: Fix some layout issues. 18:20:19 03edlothiol * r2a3d0ea771ff 10/crawl-ref/source/webserver/ (config.py server.py ws_handler.py): Webtiles server: Allow running in a chroot and as a daemon. 18:40:41 -!- chukamok has joined ##crawl-dev 18:43:03 Give unique pan lord levels actual tiles (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4839) by evilmike 18:56:50 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:12:25 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 19:16:15 kilobyte: No problem with anything but the name. 19:24:33 dpeg: how goes the blog? 19:26:18 due: a little lighter, but not much 19:28:02 due, did you completely abandon your plans for eldritch monsters? 19:30:49 HangedMan: No, real life just ate my capacity to implement them. 19:30:58 oh, boo 19:31:03 HangedMan: I've had some time recently but I spent it on holy creatures due to their not being complete. 19:31:13 I'll hopefully have some time over the Christmas hols to do stuff :) 19:31:23 yay! 19:31:34 I found out about them when I was looking though player.png and found monsters that didn't seem to have any correspondence to anything at all 19:31:40 Yeah :) 19:31:41 it was quite creepy 19:31:56 I think kilobyte added the tiles in, no point letting them rot on the tracker. 19:32:29 dpeg: I gave up on the Egyptian temple Crypt end, it wasn't complex enough. 19:32:44 dpeg: I've got a really cool layout from KArnak in one of my reference books though, so I might try duplicating that :) 19:33:42 sounds good! 19:34:04 <|amethyst> hm 19:34:05 I'm also playing again :D 19:34:17 but not MD, I presume :) 19:35:08 of course not, I can't stand MD 19:35:12 SpBe, all the way! 19:35:21 kilobyte: I love the wavey layout. 19:35:39 <|amethyst> is wielding a magical staff supposed to prevent training other weapon skills? 19:36:57 <|amethyst> oh, it's not all magical staves 19:38:01 if you (off-screen, not during actual play but in theory) unequipped your staff of power to go practice with another weapon then there would be enough time wasted that you wouldn't have the full mp back! 19:38:19 <|amethyst> aha 19:40:19 <|amethyst> hm... there seems to be some bugginess still 19:41:33 due: there's a problem there though: walking takes ages 19:41:54 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 19:41:56 <|amethyst> switching from a weapon of class foo to a staff of power disables all (non-staff) weapon skills, then reenables all but the one you switched from 19:42:08 <|amethyst> s/of class foo // 19:42:30 kilobyte: "People walk!?" 19:46:18 03kilobyte * r195423d2fcb1 10/crawl-ref/source/ (4 files in 2 dirs): Whitespace fixes. 19:46:29 03kilobyte * raacbd52137bd 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-movetarget.cc: ZotDef: don't crash when a monster somehow gets into loot vaults. 19:46:29 03kilobyte * rc745fded4388 10/crawl-ref/source/artefact.cc: Mark artefacts with wizardry INT<0 as conflicting. 19:58:35 <|amethyst> Hm... I think I found the bug... when you swap weapons that involves an unequip and then an equip. The unequip adds things to you.start_train, and the equip to you.stop_train 19:58:58 <|amethyst> then update_can_train processes the stop_train first, then the start_train 19:59:23 did something happen to the cloud generators one or two versions ago? 20:00:42 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 20:01:50 something happened to them in 0.10 i believe 20:03:00 ah 20:03:18 -!- chrisoelmueller has joined ##crawl-dev 20:03:24 this explains sprint III's gloom generators being huge and fire swamp being incredibly annoying 20:03:57 <|amethyst> Would it be reasonable to call update_can_train() from inside unequip_item()? 20:04:12 <|amethyst> it seems to work, but also seems kind of hackish 20:06:37 gloooom <3 20:06:39 ??gloom 20:06:39 gloom[1/1]: A cloud type that limits LOS to 2 squares. 20:12:35 it taking up the entire vestibule when tartarus is opened seems kinda silly 20:12:43 Punpun (L27 MfIE) ERROR: range check error (1667855729 / 211) (Abyss) 20:17:49 -!- Pingas has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:22:55 <|amethyst> hm... actually, would there be any problem with having update_can_train processing start_train before stop_train? 20:24:01 <|amethyst> I feel like there's some situation I'm missing where that would wrongly disable a skill... is there any way in a single action to do something that disables a skill then re-enables it? 20:28:02 swapping armour, maybe 20:28:16 <|amethyst> oh, right 20:28:39 dunno if that qualifies as a single action since it's a multiturn thing 20:28:59 <|amethyst> it appears it doesn't 20:29:08 <|amethyst> or, at least, update_can_train gets called in the middle 20:29:14 dropping an evocable item? 20:29:34 abandoning a god? 20:30:51 <|amethyst> hm... I'm not sure about those, but even if there's nothing like it now, surely something could come up in the future 20:33:26 <|amethyst> I guess calling update_can_equip() in wield_weapon(), between the calls to unwield_item() and wield_item(), would be most reasonable 20:34:35 be careful with calling too many functions 20:34:55 what if you crash all of our computers 20:35:06 crawl is known to be resource-intensive 20:38:29 <|amethyst> hm.. so the fix seems to work, but there are other logic issues with trainability 20:39:49 <|amethyst> you can't train staves if your only staff is an unequipped staff of power; you can train axes even if your only axe is 2H and your shield is cursed; you can train evocations with an unworn evokable ring and worn cursed gloves; ... 20:41:16 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 20:47:04 kilobyte: thank you! 20:48:32 dpeg: ... for? 20:49:18 kilobyte: oh, I thought you just pushed the Nausea effect :O There are no hints what happens when we get the git branch mails, so I was guessing. 20:51:42 I was just cleaning up some random obsolete branches 20:51:58 ah, alright -- I'll wait for another day then :) 20:52:30 beh :p 20:52:35 :) 20:53:27 (in bed, got woken up by the kitten getting mad, a bit hard to do much on a tiny keyboard) 20:54:11 it's a bit ridiculous how much pestering is needed to finish a small change :p 20:54:34 -!- dpeg is now known as dpesteg 20:55:20 hrm, I can't seem the recent version of the branch somehow 20:57:26 !tell kilobyte make dpeg nauseated 20:57:27 kilobyte: OK, I'll let kilobyte know. 20:57:31 Unable to add your message to kilobyte's queue, sorry! 20:57:47 :) 21:00:32 |amethyst: The code to determine trainability is kind of crappy, it's all pretty much duplication of logic. 21:00:33 I'd be happy to turn that thing off if I knew how ... 21:00:39 I mean, those commands 21:00:41 But as you see, not really a complete duplication. 21:01:27 <|amethyst> yeah... I'm filing a bug report; I'm lazy so putting all three things in the same report 21:04:00 -!- HangedMan has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:07:42 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 21:08:51 Inconsistent training prerequisites (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4840) by neil 21:08:59 -!- jeanjacques has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:10:00 MarvinPA: nice changes! 21:10:00 elliptic: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 21:11:19 :) 21:11:52 the chei thing was your suggestion originally if i recall :P 21:12:29 elliptic: we once discussed better spell success breakpoints. Did we arrive at a result? 21:12:33 yeah, though I hadn't tested it much... I'll definitely try it out soon 21:13:57 dpesteg: I don't think we agreed on exact breakpoints, but we generally seemed to be in agreement that pushing the breakpoints higher up was a good idea 21:14:09 elliptic: alright 21:14:33 shall I give it another push at some point, or will you invent numbers? :) 21:14:48 (I know that we had sequences of numbers on the board.) 21:15:37 I also still like the idea of giving some warning of miscast severity, but I decided it would be easier to do that after breakpoints are moved so that I don't have to readjust things 21:16:39 elliptic: good thinking, both parts 21:16:40 dpesteg: I think other people in that discussion (you or MarvinPA, say) probably had a clearer idea of what numbers you wanted than I do 21:17:09 elliptic: my numbers are semi-randomly generated, they rarely have deeper meaning. 21:20:03 -!- dpesteg is now known as dpeg 21:20:11 i should probably sleep for now but i remember the gist of the discussion, if someone reminds me i can probably take a look into tweaking the thresholds 21:45:20 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:51:26 <|amethyst> what generates learndb.html, and where is the repo? 21:51:40 <|amethyst> is it henzell itself? 21:52:12 <|amethyst> ah, yes, I see learndb-html.py now 21:52:56 <|amethyst> err, .pl 22:06:07 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:11:14 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:20:14 <|amethyst> !tell greensnark I made a pull request for dcss_henzell, to fix some of the internal links in learndb.html 22:20:14 |amethyst: OK, I'll let greensnark know. 22:20:17 Unable to add your message to greensnark's queue, sorry! 22:21:34 <|amethyst> !tell SamB_Henzell I hear bots like to talk to each other 22:21:34 |amethyst: OK, I'll let SamB_Henzell know. 22:21:35 Unable to add your message to SamB_Henzell's queue, sorry! 22:21:35 SamB_Henzell: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 22:35:00 -!- medgno has quit [Quit: Quitting] 22:35:56 -!- Torokasi has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:37:27 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:45:56 "It's time for DCSS to pass the mantle it got from Zangband to a new Roguelike." 22:46:35 does anyone know whether this makes any sense at all? I wasn't aware of any connection between zangband and dcss :P 22:47:15 add santa claus to crawl 22:48:58 i think the person who wrote that probably is thinking along the lines of "zangband is a formerly-popular roguelike, and crawl will soon be formerly popular" or something 22:49:43 I guess zangband was pretty popular back in the day, yeah 22:50:46 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 23:05:41 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 23:10:43 -!- SamB_Henzell has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:31:03 <|amethyst> so, I'm working on a patch for the cursed glove + evocable ring thing, and was wondering... should unworn rings be trainable if you are wearing *uncursed* gloves? 23:31:19 <|amethyst> because _item_is_swappable treats gloves as things that cannot be easily swapped 23:32:44 <|amethyst> I would think "no"... that matches e.g. not being able to train evocations with an unworn cloak of darkness 23:33:15 <|amethyst> since swapping a ring under gloves is more complex than swapping a cloak 23:34:08 <|amethyst> which would also imply that wearing a shield should block training with two-handed weapons 23:35:52 <|amethyst> I think I will still include the _item_is_swappable check, though, so that the armour-is-unswappable logic is in just one place 23:36:52 |amethyst: I still think personally that all the swappability and curse status checks are unnecessary complication 23:37:15 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 23:37:42 <|amethyst> I'm not convinced either way, but I figured that if it's there, it should be consistent 23:37:54 also, aren't rings under uncursed gloves fine because swapping them is just as fast as swapping rings without any gloves on? 23:38:35 ssh! 23:38:41 <|amethyst> oh, right... an even older inconsistency :) 23:39:24 well, rings being hard to swap with gloves on would be really bad from a gameplay standpoint 23:39:32 <|amethyst> yeah 23:39:56 I agree it is a little strange though 23:39:56 maybe only cursed gloves have full fingers ;-P 23:40:04 they're magical, they fit on spriggans, trolls, or humans with gloves on just fine :) 23:40:46 robes and hats are only *slightly* less magical 23:40:56 <|amethyst> well, I'm not sure about "really" bad; it would make whether or not to wear gloves a more interesting decision 23:41:22 <|amethyst> but maybe that's a decision that shouldn't be interesting for anyone without claws 23:46:05 Talking of armour changes, I had a thought a while back about having 3 levels of armour type for each slot of head, hands and feet 23:46:08 it could be good if we ever want to discourage ring-swapping, I guess 23:46:34 so head would be cap (no innate ac, but may be enchanted), hat (1 ac, may be enchanted), helmet (base of +2 ac, may be enchanted) 23:46:48 phyphor: too many types 23:47:01 elliptic: ... because variety is bad? 23:47:18 because if we're arguing types we have animal skins and robes 23:47:31 we also have daggers, short sword and sabres 23:47:37 skins could go now that you mention iy 23:47:39 and as for axes ... 23:48:00 because having dozens of functionally different armour types is bad 23:48:02 but my thinking was that for each level of mutation you had you lost the ability to wear a level of item 23:48:20 people already have a hard enough time remembering the ranking of the body armours 23:48:30 elliptic: and having dozens (by whichyou mean 3) of different short blades? 23:48:41 elliptic: I'd suggest making it easy to remember 23:48:55 <|amethyst> I think two levels for each slot would be plenty 23:48:59 there is an idea about soft & hard aux armour types, like caps vs helmets 23:49:07 but if you think 3 is too many then should we reduce the number of short blades from 3? and what about all those axes? 23:49:25 people are only using one weapon, and weapon choice is much more important 23:49:27 Keskitalo: certainly it'd be nice to have gloves/gauntlets be soft and hard, and maybe shoes vs boots 23:49:37 elliptic: people only have one head 23:49:40 you are talking about something that would usually only mean 1 point of AC here or there 23:49:46 for each slot 23:49:48 three sounds too much without adding real variety 23:49:59 But that's where I'm suggesting variety 23:50:25 or I was going to suggest the highest level should be hard and so if you are an unusual size or have horns you can't wear it 23:50:30 you suggested variety that would just be of the form "slightly different amounts of AC" for most chars 23:50:44 and which would require remembering rules about what things are wearable for other chars 23:51:08 and you'd have to switch stuff more when you get mut levs 23:51:13 yes 23:51:20 that's not necessarily a bad thing 23:51:27 you get horns, but have to switch hats 23:51:33 * SamB thinks of food reform 23:51:35 you get claws and have to switch glvoes 23:51:45 <|amethyst> that's already the case 23:51:55 it was funny when the orb of fire grew me horns and it pushed off my rF helmet 23:52:16 |amethyst: indeed, I'm just suggesting a way to closely match the armour types to mutation types 23:52:28 we have 3 levels of mutation hence the thought of three levels of armour 23:52:44 but, hey, I'll make do with 2 as long as we can do the same for gloves and shoes as we do for hats 23:52:47 yeah, a certain amount of this is okay... I'm okay with having two types of armour per slot, but more than that seems really excessive unless they are going to have more interesting differences 23:53:15 elliptic: it's hard to consider what you could do as different if the word "NO" get's thrown in as soon as the idea is put forward 23:53:18 but three levels sounds like introducing fiddlery 23:53:19 <|amethyst> I'm in favour of two, but I don't think it should be exactly the same as hats 23:53:42 phyphor: well it' 23:53:46 s not a great idea then is it :) 23:53:47 <|amethyst> i.e. I don't see why having sharp fingernails (claws 1) would keep you from wearing gauntlets 23:53:57 also, we have caps and wizard hats ... and I'm not entirely sure why 23:54:06 flavour 23:54:09 phyphor: well, I have lots of experience objecting to this idea when eronarn has proposed it (or something like it) in the past 23:54:10 i'm not either 23:54:12 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 23:54:21 elliptic: then I defer to your wisdom 23:54:42 yeah. elliptic is right, the idea or variant has been around 23:55:01 i apologize for "not a great idea",it was snappy 23:55:13 <|amethyst> apparently some people really object to the idea of wearing a wizard hat on their minotaur... but starting a wizard with a cap seems silly 23:55:16 |amethyst / Keskitalo : I'm thinking closed gauntlets 23:55:49 |amethyst: I've been thinking about reducing wizard hat generation by a lot (replacing them with caps usually) 23:56:13 I could see it if, say, wizard hats gave +int for their AC 23:56:16 since I do think that "wizard hat" being the most common headgear for a minotaur is a bit strange 23:56:18 <|amethyst> I guess if "sharp fingernails" really means "long and sharp fingernails" 23:56:18 i recall it's so that you can wear gloves on top of claws n, but it stops them from workin 23:56:22 but that would seem a bit powerful 23:56:36 keskitalo: yeah, which is interesting on ghouls at least 23:56:47 that's kind of cool, yeah 23:57:04 if it has an actual effect, that's even cooler :) 23:57:07 I was thinking that smaller claws could poke out the end of thin gloves 23:57:15 but larger ones would rip apart the fabric 23:58:03 or, heck, have glovelettes as the 0 AC version