00:02:33 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.10-a0-1214-g92a3a48 (32) 00:03:23 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-1214-g92a3a48 (32) 00:05:37 -!- raskol has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:09:35 -!- valrus_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:10:12 -!- raskol has joined ##crawl-dev 00:18:41 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-1214-g92a3a48 00:19:11 -!- elly has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:23:23 -!- greatzebu has quit [Quit: greatzebu] 00:25:53 -!- elly has joined ##crawl-dev 00:31:44 -!- greatzebu has joined ##crawl-dev 00:38:02 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:42:38 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 00:44:31 -!- Mottie has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:50:59 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 00:51:57 -!- valrus has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 00:52:39 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 00:54:45 -!- greatzebu has quit [Quit: greatzebu] 01:05:46 -!- raskol has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:06:09 -!- raskol has joined ##crawl-dev 01:16:55 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:51:33 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 01:54:07 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 02:05:49 -!- raskol has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:06:16 -!- raskol has joined ##crawl-dev 02:24:36 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 02:24:41 hi 02:25:03 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:25:36 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 02:42:31 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 03:01:56 morning! 03:05:55 the ingame changelog on cdo seems broken 03:45:16 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 03:49:54 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 04:40:39 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:42:23 -!- ais523 has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:44:11 -!- rejuxst has joined ##crawl-dev 04:55:32 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 04:56:25 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:00:04 OSX builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-1214-g92a3a48 05:05:44 -!- raskol has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:05:59 -!- raskol has joined ##crawl-dev 05:06:34 -!- jeanjacques has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:21:11 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 05:22:50 -!- rejuxst has quit [Quit: Page closed] 05:30:26 the code includes pre-DCSS unused resistance fields for "resist piece", "resist slice" and "resist bludgeon". Any reason to keep them? 05:31:38 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:35:38 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 05:36:15 moin 05:37:10 Webtiles always crashing back to login screen (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4713) by Incubus 05:41:09 !tell galehar is there a reason to save can_train between sessions? 05:41:09 kilobyte: OK, I'll let galehar know. 05:44:47 03kilobyte * r04d60a00a276 10/crawl-ref/source/wiz-you.cc: Fix a crash on wizmode race change. 05:44:47 03kilobyte * rc00aaeb2516c 10/crawl-ref/source/invent.cc: Whitespace fixes. 05:44:48 03GreatZebu * raf6482505d47 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-death.cc: Correct message when just one of Pikel's former slaves is visible. 05:44:48 03kilobyte * r024c34b3fd3b 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-death.cc: Don't use "its freedom" for a human. 05:44:58 03kilobyte * r96023fda1699 10/crawl-ref/source/misc.cc: Give a message when coagulated blood doesn't fit in the inventory. 05:44:58 03kilobyte * r83db83728234 10/crawl-ref/source/ (skills2.cc skills2.h startup.cc wiz-you.cc): Don't crash when a transferred character's aptitudes changed. 05:46:58 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:49:33 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 05:51:35 -!- Torokasi has joined ##crawl-dev 05:55:22 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:58:10 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 06:05:43 -!- raskol has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:06:02 -!- raskol has joined ##crawl-dev 06:20:25 -!- RichardHawk has joined ##crawl-dev 06:26:48 kilobyte: 'its freedom'? clearly we should have a favored gender neutral pronoun option 06:28:50 quick, somebody ask rax! 06:34:36 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 06:35:14 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 06:55:53 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 06:57:58 -!- RichardHawk has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:00:13 03kilobyte * ra5dccd9baa7b 10/crawl-ref/source/describe.cc: Right-align the "(Cost)" header on the ^ screen. 07:00:14 -!- Danei has joined ##crawl-dev 07:01:14 -!- mumra has quit [Quit: offski] 07:05:44 -!- raskol has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:06:05 -!- raskol has joined ##crawl-dev 07:17:40 -!- alefury has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:18:52 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:29:32 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:30:08 Napkin: could you upload the save for draugr on webtiles for me somewhere? (see #4713) 07:31:51 can't find it 07:32:50 Draugr.cs, got it 07:33:17 ah, sorry for the case-insensitivity ;) 07:33:58 https://crawl.develz.org/saves/dumps/Draugr-8a39726-111010-1433.cs 07:34:13 use your mantis login data 07:35:55 ok, thanks :) 07:44:07 03dolorous * ra30033a632af 10/crawl-ref/source/ (8 files in 3 dirs): Convert gnoll shamans/sergeants from Lua redefinitions to actual monsters. 07:44:08 03dolorous * r3acf086c0bb8 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-data.h mon-gear.cc): Tweak gnoll shaman/sergeant stats and items. 07:44:08 03dolorous * r3c5f7c89debb 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-pick.cc mon-place.cc zotdef.cc): Allow gnoll shamans/sergeants to be placed randomly and in bands. 07:44:57 np :) 07:45:21 duplicate mutation (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4714) by ortoslon 07:46:52 -!- ais523_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:47:02 -!- Pingas has joined ##crawl-dev 07:56:21 -!- RichardHawk has joined ##crawl-dev 07:56:22 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 08:00:51 -!- Mottie has joined ##crawl-dev 08:05:43 -!- raskol has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:06:08 -!- raskol has joined ##crawl-dev 08:06:17 -!- HangedMan has joined ##crawl-dev 08:13:07 -!- Twilight13 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:13:32 -!- Pingas has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:13:42 -!- Pingas has joined ##crawl-dev 08:13:46 -!- Pingas_ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:13:54 -!- Pingas_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:20:58 -!- ais523 has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:21:47 mroovka the Grappler (L12 KeWn) ASSERT(prog >= 0) in 'skills2.cc' at line 152 failed on turn 17348. (Lair:4) 08:23:36 mroovka the Grappler (L12 KeWn) ASSERT(prog >= 0) in 'skills2.cc' at line 152 failed on turn 17348. (Lair:4) 08:23:48 -!- raskol has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:23:48 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 08:24:10 what does "Well now, isn't this buggy?" mean in a monster's description? 08:24:54 no description 08:24:55 a buggy serpent of hell description, by chance? 08:25:18 gnoll sergeants I guess 08:25:23 Zaba: yes 08:25:29 known bug? 08:26:03 serpent of hell descs are hardcoded for each color, and the colors are wrong 08:31:39 you can recolour them, too 08:32:14 should really find a better way to pick their description... 08:32:48 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:32:49 or at least re-synchronize the current hardcoded colors as a lazy fix. 08:33:38 resistances use mon->props["serpent_of_hell_flavour"].get_int() 08:36:49 -!- Brannock has joined ##crawl-dev 08:42:07 03kilobyte * r6410ed66ec09 10/crawl-ref/source/ (describe.cc mon-info.cc): Fix Serpent of Hell description. 08:42:56 -!- jle has quit [Disconnected by services] 08:51:31 -!- jle has joined ##crawl-dev 09:00:47 Cannot travel using X map in portal vaults (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4715) by st 09:03:31 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:20:07 does someone remember when CAO updates? 09:20:15 <|amethyst> 5:00 UTC 09:20:51 right, but on what days? 09:20:53 Weight display toggle help thing wraps around in the drop screen on standard term sizes (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4716) by st 09:22:57 <|amethyst> kilobyte: it looks like every day according to my IRC logs 09:23:19 oh, oops 09:23:24 <|amethyst> though a few weeks ago it was running two or three hours late 09:23:56 * SamB thought it would just get truncated when he noticed it was too wide (after already having pushed) 09:24:10 it's the "drop" screen one 09:25:55 |amethyst: I checked mine, thanks, you're right 09:26:06 03dolorous * rbfa067699223 10/crawl-ref/source/ (itemprop-enum.h wiz-mon.cc): Remove references to WPN_MAX_NONBLESSED. 09:29:14 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 09:30:47 !seen kilobyte 09:30:47 I last saw kilobyte at Mon Oct 10 14:25:54 2011 UTC (4m 53s ago) saying |amethyst: I checked mine, thanks, youre right on ##crawl-dev. 09:31:06 kilobyte: can you agree with the list of seven items galehar sent? 09:31:26 I can post it here, if needed. 09:34:04 the one that was inexplicably in HTML instead of plaintext? 09:34:11 dpeg: I was curious about something. you wrote in a mail to c-r-d with this formula "d(x) = d(2,x)/2 -- reduced variance, larger mean". If I understand that right it actually has a smaller mean... assuming d stands for roll_dice 09:34:20 sorry to bring this up randomly, its just something I was confused about 09:35:21 (1d6) has a mean of 3.5, (2d6 / 2) has a mean of 3.25, that's what confuses me 09:35:47 <|amethyst> huh? 09:35:56 <|amethyst> shouldn't 2d6 have a mean of 7? 09:36:03 note the / 2 09:36:05 evilmike: it should have said "reduced variance, same mean" 09:36:31 <|amethyst> oh, because of integer rounding? 09:37:11 If you roll n die and divide the sum by n, the expected value should still be 3.5. That is a claim without thinking/computation, pure feeling :) 09:38:12 The expected value is linear: E(3X) = 3 E(X). 09:38:44 oh yeah sorry, for some reason when I did it earlier I got 3.25, must have been a typo 09:39:04 evilmike: no problem, thanks for reading 09:39:26 Do you have any opinion on what a good formula for f(slay+to_dam) would be? :) 09:40:23 <|amethyst> however 09:40:29 Proposals have been f(x)=d(x), f(x)=2d(x)/2, f(x)=x. 09:40:30 <|amethyst> evilmike was actually right 09:40:33 SamB: set your program to prefer text/plain instead of text/html. the e-mail contained both. 09:41:20 <|amethyst> if you do integer division, you round down so 1 (which comes from 2 and 3 on the 2d6) is more common than 6 (which only comes from 12) 09:41:30 <|amethyst> and it works out to a mean of 3.25 09:42:25 dpeg: well, my preference is for simplicity. In particular, I really like proposals that make it so when a weapon has "+5 to damage" it means +5 (at least, on average) 09:44:18 !seen elliptic 09:44:18 I last saw elliptic at Mon Oct 10 13:57:58 2011 UTC (46m 20s ago) saying mikee_: is trying out malicious blades for strongman a terrible idea? on ##crawl. 09:44:28 dpeg: hi 09:44:48 elliptic: Hi! I need you to help with slaying vs to_dam. 09:45:25 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:45:25 There is a complaint that d(slay+to_dam) or 2d(slay+to_dam)/2 would be too weak. However, I am afraid that slay+to_dam (no randomness) is too strong. 09:45:29 What is your assessment= 09:45:57 dpeg: I responded on C-R-D a while ago. Some of the points are good, some are bad (two even very bad). 09:46:27 even though I am somewhat fond of the non-random one, it's pretty clear that under that, weapon enchantments would need to be a lot lower 09:46:39 like, +5 would be exceptional rather than somewhat normal 09:46:59 dpeg: slaying could use a nerf, but if you're too afraid to weaken them too much we can crank up the numbers they generate with up 09:47:02 dpeg: I don't understand the counterargument to just doing d(slay+to_dam) 09:47:26 no randomness is a bad idea 09:47:34 completely unlike how anything else works in crawl 09:47:41 still, I fail to see the point in doing the whole thing. You'd _increase_ confusion since now people would have a reason to think enchantment works the same as base damage. 09:48:08 kilobyte: well, currently we have three things that all work differently 09:48:11 elliptic: evilmike argues that players expect to_dam to work as "this much of additional damage". I am not sure I agree. I would vouch for players expecting to_dam and slay to work in the same way, of course. 09:48:14 elliptic: +1 to keeping randomness... it'd guarantee every blow to do damage 09:48:47 kilobyte: having slay and to_dam work the same way would be really good. It confuses new players all the time. 09:49:13 I see kilobyte's point that base damage vs enchantment will still be confusing (maybe more so) 09:49:27 I have seen reports of "my slaying plus to_dam is 15" and so on. 09:49:28 that's sort of hard to avoid though 09:50:04 this will have the side effect of making weapon skill less valuable i guess 09:50:20 evilmike: I haven't seen people find "+1d(to_dam)" to be a strange formula... it might not be the first one they guess, but not every formula has to be :P 09:50:37 yeah, fair enough 09:51:03 I just remember being surprised to find out it worked that way, after having played crawl for like, at least a year :P 09:51:22 mikee_: I would see it as "easier to switch weapon if you amassed slaying" 09:51:30 but did not knowing the correct formula actually hurt you? this is the question 09:51:36 oh of course 09:52:14 but because the way it works now is to multiply slaying by skill factors and so on, you wouldn't need as much weapon skill to do good damage if it were to become like enchantments 09:52:47 mikee_: well, I thought the plan was to make this a strict nerf of slaying 09:52:48 kilobyte: ultimately, we should present the weapon information more sensibly than now. However, we can remove confusion right away with treating to_dam and slaying on the same footing. 09:53:15 what you are saying would be true if we tried to compensate by increasing size of slaying... which I don't think is a good idea 09:53:29 elliptic, oh i see 09:53:29 would make slaying *stronger* in early game than it already is 09:53:30 elliptic: not sure... that is why I suggested 2d(x)/2. I want to remove the confusion, mostly. 09:53:32 I'm not sure if the lack of knowledge hurt me... but I think knowing how it works helps me. I remember I used to value enchant weapon scrolls a lot more than I do now 09:53:45 overall it's a minor isuse though, I'm not that opinionated on this random vs non-random thing 09:54:03 evilmike: most people severely underestimate damage enchantment early game IMO though 09:54:10 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 09:54:30 i agree with elliptic but that is a separate issue 09:54:35 people have a hard time seeing a middle ground =P 09:54:53 dpeg: I don't see the point in 2d(x)/2 really 09:55:03 either something is really good or really bad and never 'good sometimes and bad other times' 09:55:05 elliptic: yeah, I like to enchant my early weapons. I just meant I used to stockpile scrolls because I wanted to go for a +9 weapon, thinking it was significantly better than +8 :P 09:55:31 evilmike: ah, right... that's also partly a matter of knowing how the enchant weapon chances work 09:55:39 -!- ais523_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:55:40 if non-random is the way to go, I'd say I like 1d(x) the most, because it's easy to grasp and has worked well enough 09:56:05 once you realize how many of them fail at high enchantment, you realize that a single one won't be worth much later on 09:57:29 evilmike: there's a steep cliff at +4: it's good to enchant any crap you use to +4, and then save the scrolls once you get your target weapon 09:57:41 I go for +5, for acidproofing 09:58:14 I use a wand for the stray jelly, but that might work too 09:58:16 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 09:59:14 it's just a habit, I never melee jellies now that I think of it :P 09:59:26 evilmike: it was my bone to those who said "too much randomness" :) 10:01:07 dpeg: by the way, your traps proposal looks good to me :) 10:01:12 about scrolls of EW: what about making them always identify on use? Currently, unarmed players greatly benefit from being spoiled that they should wield a piece of ammunition before read-iding scrolls. 10:01:44 you 10:01:57 i like that idea 10:02:02 you'd have to wield a +4 weapon or an artefact to have a chance of it _not_ identifying otherwise 10:02:07 kilobyte: the ammo-wielding is definitely spoilery, yeah 10:02:48 elliptic: good enough to put it on the wiki and accept the comments? 10:02:49 it makes read-IDing curse weapon a little less interesting perhaps, but not much because of the ammo-wielding 10:02:56 kilobyte: so ?EW would prompt? Fine by me. 10:03:12 dpeg: I'd say so 10:03:17 ok, will do 10:03:49 kilobyte: there's actually a bug that makes ?EW identify when you use it while wielding a magical staff 10:03:57 so this would fix that :P 10:04:01 somewhat related to this subject: is there a reason EW III still exists? 10:04:27 why shouldn't it? 10:04:47 it's just the same as several EW scrolls. Just seems a bit weird, I cant think of other items that duplicate effects like that 10:05:15 EW III was unique when it made brands permanent (not that I disagree with it losing that) 10:05:39 removing ?EW III would allow us to rename ?EW I and ?EW II 10:05:50 however, it is good to have really rare scrolls, so I'd like a replacement 10:06:21 I'm not opposed to removing it, but it does serve the purpose of being a valuable scroll and making the process of enchanting up your weapon more exciting 10:06:40 that's true, it's pretty fun to find one 10:06:47 elliptic: or we find another unique thing for EW III 10:06:48 I forget, is the effect of EW III at least in part guaranteed unlike that of EW I and II? 10:06:52 zaba: no 10:06:59 hm, it could be 10:07:00 it is 1d2 EW I + 1d2 EW II 10:07:10 if it were guaranteed, then it wouldn't commute with the other scrolls 10:07:12 could give the super enchantment to vorpalize weapon, so that scroll actually has some use 10:07:12 which is spoilery 10:07:15 I somehow had the impression that it was guaranteed to succeed at least on one of the effects at least once 10:07:16 oh well 10:07:29 vorpalize weapon has one use 10:07:48 (to make your weapon permanently freezing/flaming) 10:08:05 usually it just makes it so you cant cast brands any more when you read id it 10:08:08 I find myself wanting a vorpalise weapon scroll often enough that I don't think there's anything wrong with it 10:08:14 actually making a weapon vorpal is just not exciting anymore 10:08:33 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 10:08:33 -!- bmh has quit [Changing host] 10:08:33 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 10:08:43 well it is sort of something you only want one of in any one game 10:08:53 it is rare enough that this doesn't bother me :P 10:08:56 dpeg: "Players are paranoid about stashing because of jellies." -- eh, I find it just contributes to tedium. I find myself stashing on levels without jellies. 10:09:04 i use nemelex enough that it doesn't bother me =P 10:09:43 I do think that the "you should cast freezing aura right before read-IDing scrolls" part is a bit strange 10:10:34 clearly one should use their extra vorpalize scrolls alongside a single light weapon and excruciating wounds to convert them into torment scrolls 10:11:44 wow, that actually works. 10:13:15 bmh: yes, it might be sane to stash almost anywhere and many players are paranoid. However, removing the jelly re-spawns make life better for everyone, so it is okay. If needed, I can make some jelly vaults for cosmic balance. 10:15:16 dpeg: Is there a way to force hatches to appear on a particular level? 10:16:14 oh pff the torment for that only effects the player character and not surrounding monsters 10:16:24 bmh: as a vault, sure 10:16:51 dpeg: I was thinking of a "stairless" level 10:17:18 entomb all six of the up and down stairs in transparent rock 10:18:41 bmh: This can be done, yes. Would need a little lua for force the hatch generation. 10:19:08 Is intruiging, especially if the level you miss is special. 10:19:30 will cause a problem with autotravel but at least this can be fixed with digging later 10:20:01 It shouldn't break inter-level travel (unless you're on the tombed level) 10:21:13 Unseen friendlies prevent autoexplore. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4717) by Twilight 10:23:37 bmh: if you make one, I'll take it 10:23:58 dpeg: Need more lua-fu 10:26:07 bhaak: I don't know how to make gmane's web interface show the text/plain instead! 10:26:07 03dolorous * rbdd3b2610b14 10/crawl-ref/source/mutation-data.h: Fix reversed order of mutation loss messages for tentacle spikes. 10:26:15 03dolorous * re4f5eeec3503 10/crawl-ref/source/mutation-data.h: Add wording fix. 10:29:08 we could say right out, wherever we tell new players about enchantments, that it doesn't just add the Dam enchantment to the base damage 10:32:39 SamB: the statement has no real meaning as players don't know about monster health eithe4r. 10:33:03 dpeg: Uh, it very much has real meaning. 10:33:18 Consider a player comparing a +3 falchion with a +0 scimitar. 10:33:20 dpeg: it would tell them they couldn't compare weapons by adding the Dam to the base damage 10:33:27 yeah, exactly 10:33:55 I'm not saying we tell 'em the formula 10:34:36 just that units of base damage and damage enchantment aren't interchangable 10:35:18 I mean, if we're worried that players would otherwise assume that they *are* interchangable... 10:41:16 i can't mapmove in pan 10:41:57 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 10:44:30 Mu_: I think there's a bug about that 10:45:02 it might not have mentioned pan, though 10:46:32 i see it, ty 10:46:47 you're quite welcome 10:53:58 dpeg: the code has some weird unused resistances: RES_PIECE, RES_BLADE, RES_BLUDGEON. No monster has it, and they seem to be very old (pre-DCSS). 10:54:09 is there a reason to keep them? 10:54:40 kilobyte: We could add those resistances to monsters? 10:54:41 kilobyte: I don't think so 10:55:13 If we want something like this, we should discuss and add from scratch. 10:55:25 kilobyte: is there actual code for them? 10:55:33 formulas? 10:55:35 just the definition, apparently 10:55:46 E_REMOVE_IT_THEN :) 10:56:11 on the same line of inquiry, why does wizmode &o{"rune" list an elven rune? 10:56:54 they get marshalled (so bloat saves) but have no effect 10:57:26 HangedMan: because it exists in the code... didn't Elf used to have one? 10:57:33 yes, it did 10:57:44 how long ago was that 10:57:48 ? 10:57:50 but not in 4b26 anymore 10:58:06 may still be used for Sprints or ZotDef -- would work correctly 10:58:19 (unlike RES_PIERCE and friends) 10:58:33 but beside that, it has no other use 10:58:33 send them back to angband 10:59:27 an elven rune would be a great replacement for the abyssal rune 10:59:53 mikee_: no, I don't think so 10:59:55 in the ancient (it's from the 90s) copy of the crawl source I downloaded, there's no elven rune that I can see 11:00:01 no? 11:00:08 you prefer to keep abyssal you mean 11:00:12 so that must have gotten added in 4.0, at least. The one I have here is 3.3.0 11:00:13 mikee_: no no. 11:00:51 mikee_: The abyssal rune might or might not be removed. Independently of that, Elf shouldn't have a rune since you already get all the loot. 11:00:59 oh because of that 11:01:08 vaults:8 also has loot 11:01:17 Slime and Tomb also have loot and rune, but they're harder. 11:01:21 HangedMan: likewise 11:01:30 The Dores the Cloud Mage shouts! (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4718) by Twilight 11:01:33 add even more elves in 11:01:59 to be trivially poisoned or alistair'd or frozen 11:03:18 personally i would be willing to give up the elf loot in exchange for never having to get the abyssal rune again for an all runer 11:03:29 but yes maybe not the most elegant solution 11:03:35 -!- ais523_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:03:46 mikee_: the abyssal rune now comes in rune vaults, should be much easier to find, harder to get 11:03:49 the abyss rune vault chances were drastically upped, at least 11:04:07 i haven't done much of the abyss in the latest trunk 11:04:15 so now more people can experience the joy of... ettins with distortion 11:04:23 maybe it is ok now 11:04:38 or lichs in closets 11:05:23 HangedMan: Crawl, the Puppy & Barbie edition is =====> 11:05:34 hahahaha 11:05:48 heh, if only 11:05:49 currently in development by dtsund? :) 11:06:12 mikee_: not sure he'd accept that badge 11:06:21 the new lightning spire rune vault does highlight how they were lazily converted electric eels 11:06:28 @??lightning spire 11:06:28 lightning spire (11{) | Speed: 10 | HD: 3 | Health: 9-24 | AC/EV: 1/15 | Flags: 11non-living, !sil | Res: 13magic(immune), 05fire++, 02cold++, 10elec++, 03poison++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | XP: 28 | Sp: b.electricity (3d6). 11:06:36 ??wight 11:06:40 most notably tiny health and actual ev 11:06:43 wight[1/2]: Early monster with a draining attack. Generated in packs in 0.8. Often gets a cursed weapon. 11:06:46 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 11:08:10 -!- ais523 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:15:22 that reminds me, a bit of testing I did with abyss vaults leads me to think there's a problem somewhere... bits of the vault seem to be absorbed into the abyss 11:15:43 I'm not sure if they're getting morphed or just chopped off somehow. It's bad because the vault goes, but the rune stays 11:16:24 I once saw this happen in a way that had the entire vault vanish, leaving just the rune. I just have no idea what's going on really, so the best I can describe is vague stuff like that 11:21:05 -!- ais523_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:22:34 evilmike: This is bad behavior. Originally I had it set up to hoover the entire vault once it started melting. 11:22:58 I'm just going to bug report it as a vauge "abyss vaults aren't working". I really should have done that several days ago 11:26:38 Abyss vaults aren't working (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4719) by evilmike 11:29:37 evilmike: even if it exposes the rune, shouldn't there be a ton of stuff left to kill you? 11:30:30 I had a ridiculous amount of liches assault me a few days ago, with the rune nearby 11:30:38 The vaults aren't as heavily guarded as you might think, with the exception of two or three 11:30:38 I assume that was supposed to be the lich closet originally 11:30:58 -!- Pingas_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:30:58 most of the rune vaults have an entrance on one end and a rune on the other... if that end gets eaten you can just walk around and take it 11:32:11 RichardHawk: if it was like 6 liches, yeah, that sounds right 11:32:53 -!- Pingas has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:33:18 *shrug* -- I stand by my claim that vaults should be emptied before they can decay 11:33:41 the weird part about this is the vaults aren't exactly morphing like the rest of the abyss 11:33:52 *parts* of the vaults are, and parts remain untouched. it's very weird 11:33:58 evilmike: They do morph. They just get protected until you see them 11:34:09 (or should) 11:34:42 I think they were changed to be always unmorphable 11:36:31 it looks like the sections that get abyssified are fairly rectangular 11:40:33 evilmike: I wonder if it's a masking error introduced by moving around in the abyss 11:40:51 I'm also noticing that when the vault gets morphed, *only* floor gets put in that place 11:41:54 -!- casmith789 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:54:45 -!- mikee_ is now known as sky____ 12:00:35 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: bmh] 12:01:17 -!- alefury has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Iceape 2.0.11/20110701115916]] 12:01:50 Abyss exit swallowed by terrain (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4720) by argonaut 12:02:09 -!- sky____ is now known as mikee_ 12:06:52 Various vaults - Spider minis, custom shops, abyss exits, sewer (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4721) by Guppyfry 12:06:52 -!- Torokasi has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:10:27 -!- casmith789 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:12:13 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 12:19:01 -!- Brannock has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:26:58 Going down the stairs in Vaults while in bat form often crashes the game (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4722) by edlothiol 12:35:26 -!- RichardHawk has quit [Quit: Recalculating TATARI at "the crossing crossing"] 12:40:55 -!- Brannock has joined ##crawl-dev 12:46:16 -!- ortoslon has quit [Quit: bye] 13:27:38 -!- mumra has joined ##crawl-dev 13:31:34 mumra: hi! 13:32:18 hello! 13:35:17 how's things? 13:38:26 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 13:50:36 mumra: opps, reply was too late, already away :) 13:51:14 mumra: some drama about the catering, and players whining about traps 13:51:38 mumra: you recall the trap proposal I copypasted for you? 13:51:52 yes 13:52:12 -!- evilmike has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:52:29 got some good feedback, will put a much better version on the wiki today 13:53:09 great! 13:53:40 Also, every evening I say a little prayer to the unknown demigod :) 13:53:51 :) 13:54:24 oh, i was going to email you some info 13:54:30 yes! 13:54:42 Then I could even write a letter to the unknown demigod! 13:55:05 had a bit of a hard drive tragedy which made things problematic last week 13:55:12 urgh 13:55:16 mumra: also affected work? 13:56:40 yeah; luckily i have external source control for everything, so there was never a point where i'd lost anything significant 13:57:02 what a relief 13:57:12 but, a few bits of personal projects and notes that i hadn't backed up, as well as local git stashes 13:57:12 -!- HangedMan has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:57:22 I hope "demigod patch" is included in "anything significant" :] 13:57:32 anyway, i ended up buying file recovery tools and getting everything (i think) back 13:57:39 cool 13:57:49 the demigod stuff is all online on git 13:58:09 except for a small stash which only contained a small amount of speech 13:59:17 don't worry, the total amount of data lost by a person during the lifetime is capped 13:59:48 :) 13:59:50 the more you lose, the more paranoid about immediate backups you become :p 13:59:54 * kilobyte lost a lot :p 14:00:03 a few years ago, i lost a huge amount 14:00:07 * dpeg never lost anything 14:00:31 * kilobyte watches dpeg's hard drive fail in 3... 2... 1... 14:00:31 which is why i've had an offsite svn server for most things for quite a long time 14:00:43 yeah, same 14:01:11 * bhaak once formatted the first 23 sectors of his hard disk 14:01:15 kilobyte: all my workstuff is on several machines 14:01:26 bhaak: but what about sector 24? 14:01:54 bhaak: once? :p 14:02:10 dpeg: saved by power cycling 14:02:15 -!- HangedMan has joined ##crawl-dev 14:02:26 I mnaged to svn remove a file once... 14:02:27 kilobyte: well, it never happened accidently a second time :D 14:02:29 or several. 14:02:59 THen I managed to dig them up with some linux system tool. 14:03:04 I fel hacker as fuck. 14:03:07 felt* 14:03:41 as an early student, I had a weird mania of reformatting partitions every a week or so (in an at least quintuple-boot setup). I went through about every single bug in fdisk, Windows's fdisk, pqmagic, sfdisk and cfdisk, and after a time just started doing it with diskedit counting sectors by hand :p Less buggy. 14:04:00 heh 14:04:05 someone had a mac formatted flash drive today on a school computer, and they asked why they couldn't format it 14:04:14 it happend to be because student accounts don't have formatting rights 14:04:21 like, cfdisk was the most sane one, but at that time it was _guaranteed_ to screw up if partitions were not in physical order 14:04:26 it's probably a good thing, seeing as he wanted the work that was on it :) 14:04:39 rawrmage: :) 14:05:49 Heh 14:06:11 I use (g)parted most of the time, but I'm not an addict :) 14:06:21 I only format when I'm reinstalling. 14:06:43 Q: What do you do in your spare time? A: I format hard disks. 14:06:44 Speaking ofbackups I really need to set something up soon. 14:06:59 But not tonight, I'm gonna play crawl. 14:07:39 virtual machines remove all the need to do so... when doing a test install, you just clone a pre-installed VM and delete it afterwards 14:08:04 Hmm that's cool. 14:08:08 and for screwing up the host system, btrfs lets you recover with a single command 14:08:12 Guess I need to learn that. 14:09:33 I'm naming my computers after crawl uniques btw. 14:10:13 my home desktop is "dispater" 14:10:15 <3 14:10:19 so you have five computers that are firey hot and explode all of the time? 14:10:37 I've got Sigmund, Erolcha, Psyche and Gastronok so far. 14:10:56 presumably gastronok is slow as hell 14:11:04 i should name that old hard drive i have after Grinder 14:11:13 the hard drive i no longer use >.> 14:11:19 HangedMan: 850MHz Dell, turns 10 this year according to my dad. 14:11:55 haha 14:11:58 Grinder will come and get you in the night! 14:12:16 As a matter of fact it's the computer I'm running irssi on :) 14:12:54 model name : Pentium II (Deschutes) 14:12:54 cpu MHz : 350.756 14:13:01 kilobyte: :) 14:13:01 two freaking hours to build Crawl 14:13:19 even my phone can run an optimized build faster 14:13:31 that's pretty long 14:13:42 i think I have a box that builds crawl in 2 min 14:14:05 I realized that the phones my friends are using to access the irssi box are actually a lot faster than the computer itself... 14:14:18 i think dispater could do that, but it runs win7 so i don't really do lots of programming on it :P 14:14:36 (that's still a WWW and file server at work... there's no need to upgrade) 14:15:00 I really should get a new disk for gastronok at some point. 14:15:05 It's a disaster waiting to happen. 14:18:27 * SamB develops on a machine only 100MHz faster than kilobyte's above 14:19:49 model name : Pentium II (Deschutes) 14:19:49 stepping : 2 14:19:49 cpu MHz : 448.092 14:19:51 my irssi runs on a machine similar to kilobyte's with only 128 mb of ram 14:19:53 rawrmage: not that good... my lousy 6-way box I paid $400 for a year ago needs 48 seconds... bastards nearby have 2*8*HT goodness, but sadly I didn't have a chance to build Crawl on it :( 14:20:05 bhaak: I upgraded mine to 256 14:20:16 luxury! 14:20:24 nice wow 14:20:28 this machine is a 863 MHz Pentium III (Coppermine) 14:20:31 was 44 when I bought it, Crawl's bloat got that to 56, but PCH=y shaved a nice chunk down 14:20:42 SamB: mucho thanks for that part, BTW 14:21:00 No problem! 14:21:22 let's test if it breaks Mac builds, if not, it should be the default 14:23:18 Zannick: Pretty much the same as mine then :) 14:24:09 good for irssi and building crawl remotely when i'm about to head somewhere else 14:26:59 Patches the Chucker (L4 DrHu) (D:2) 14:27:08 yeah, you don't need anything more for a client machine 14:27:27 (assuming flashblock and other sanity) 14:28:08 Mine is standing in a closet, doing everythin I want to do remotely.. 14:28:23 Torrents, file storage, irssi. 14:28:41 I've tried to get some git repos going but I'm not very good at that yet. 14:28:43 I have two other machines, that might be faster than the PII, except that process creation kills performance on Windows... 14:28:53 so I'm not sure 14:29:09 also it's a pain to hack there 14:29:35 they're good enough for IRC though 14:29:57 i got a new samsung phone .... it has a dual core 1.2ghz cpu ... it's basically faster than my laptop 14:29:58 Windows... 14:30:24 * dpeg thinks that machines are too cheap. 14:30:29 Heh 14:30:35 I just got a desktop for gaming. 14:30:52 ~400 € 14:31:00 dpeg: buying a new machine is a no-brainer, and therefore they should be nerfed 14:31:14 :) 14:31:29 I don't want to go all ecological on you, but I am sure the resources would be used more wisely if stuff wasn't ass cheap. 14:31:38 -!- syllogism has quit [] 14:31:55 i probably paid too much to get this machine running 14:32:16 dpeg: that's a good idea for nerfing them 14:32:19 make it so! 14:32:34 dpeg: I'm still using my old laptop as a media center, along with the gastronok in the cloest. 14:32:42 what really troubles me is when uk government offices upgrade their tech, they have this stupid rule that means they have to throw out all the old computers 14:32:49 So I'm felling pretty evironment friendly :P 14:32:55 (instead of, say, giving them to people from disadvantaged backgrounds) 14:33:07 Yes, usually people acquire a number of machines simply by getting one for every new generation (ca three years). 14:33:13 mumra: So true, slap ubuntu on them and give them out for free. 14:33:21 I only get them for old ones 14:33:22 had to replace the hard drive cause it was too loud, bought a power supply, replacement processor fan... 14:33:40 mumra: yes, that's stupid 14:33:48 i'd have probably been better off getting one of those mini-computers that just looked like a plug 14:33:57 I feel like coding, any small implementables available? 14:34:03 * ghallberg goes mantis. 14:34:14 mumra: I wouldn't bet too much money on the sanity of any UK government to be honest. If forced, I'd rather bet on the queen, may she enjoy an old age. 14:34:21 there's lots of xom ideas on the wiki that have been given the okay 14:35:05 dpeg: too bad she doesn't actually *rule* much 14:35:42 dpeg: :) it's ok, i've worked for enough government departments to be well aware of their levels of sanity 14:36:11 SamB: maybe that's not sooo bad, after all :) 14:36:20 * SamB wishes we didn't keep quite so many enums in the one header 14:37:21 of course, one must also question the sanity of a population that *elects* a government so full of monkeys 14:37:22 ghallberg: do you have an idea about tiles? There are around 578464824687 parts that are neglected there :( 14:37:39 kilobyte: I haven't even played tiles :( 14:37:45 mumra: don't worry, that doesn't differ from about any other country 14:37:49 Or well I tried but got confused :( 14:38:04 yes, the display is hard to understand 14:38:11 nobody plays tiles, from what I gather 14:38:22 at least Poland yesterday managed to not elect total clowns -- there was a risk of it 14:38:32 how do you tell which monsters are the same kind ? 14:38:41 kilobyte: do you mean Kaczinski or the wodka guy? 14:38:44 I mean, os or Ts or Fs 14:39:17 SamB: how often is it relevant that two monsters are the same kind? 14:39:28 when they have different stats and abilities anyway 14:39:36 the 2nd biggest party keeps accusing Russia of either shooting down the plane with the old president or making artificial fog to have it crash, and also just accused Germany of an unspecified plot against Poland 14:40:02 ah, so Kaczinski is the total clown, gotta agree with that 14:40:30 kilobyte: September is just over, you can rest assured for another year! 14:41:16 kilobyte: that sounds like gaddafi-worthy paranoia! 14:41:46 dpeg: Only a year? 14:42:06 The traditional time for Germans to invade Poland is September?! 14:42:24 I wouldn't know, we don't ge tinvaded much,. 14:42:28 mumra: only that it affects a 40 million country in the middle of Europe. At least the Kaczinskis have been bisected. 14:43:01 dpeg: that sounds rather uncomfortable 14:43:45 his twin brother (the dead president) pressured a pilot to land in a fight zone during the Russia-Georgia war, the pilot followed the law and refused. Kaczyński court-martialed the guy, he was acquitted. Then, two years later, when voice recorders from the crash included an almost direct request to land, 14:44:04 his brother still claims that the pilot "was not pressured" into landing in suicidal conditions 14:45:12 what is his claim? 14:45:20 that the conditions were not suicidal? 14:45:26 or that the pilot was not pressured? 14:45:41 dpeg: when you invaded, you stayed just six years. Russia was there for 1939-1989 (with a short pause when Germans pushed them back). 14:45:47 SamB: i think the quotes indicate the answer 14:45:49 SamB: the latter 14:46:14 mumra: point 14:46:15 The want to use the pilot as a scape goat. As if the poor guy could have said "we won't land". The Russians warned to not use the zone, by the way (it would have cost the president some more time to arrive at the memorial, is all). 14:46:45 lazy dead president! 14:46:57 kilobyte: I would never claim that the German occupation was any better. 14:47:12 there was a fog so thick you couldn't see your nose straight, the military airport was pretty much just a lone building next to a concrete strip -- without ILS or other gear, and so on 14:47:13 SamB: it was a matter of prestige, if I remember correctly. 14:47:18 Stone Soup is still planning on adding a sidestep mechanic for 0.10, correct? 14:47:20 Of course you all realise this discussion has now invoked Godwin's law? 14:47:23 dtsund: no 14:47:28 oh, he never heard of being fashionably late? 14:47:28 Oh, it isn't? 14:47:40 dtsund: if everything works out, constriction will be the first combat move to go in. 14:47:43 mumra: nobody actually mentioned them yet, though! 14:48:00 dpeg: not better -- yeah. But Russians were about as bad for then first ~10 years, and not much better later. 14:48:36 kilobyte: I doubt their death camps had German efficiency. And they gave Silesia to you! 14:48:37 SamB: I think the reference was close enough ;) 14:48:55 mumra: Isn't Godwin just some fucking Nazi? 14:48:59 anyway, it's not very prestigious to be dead for no good reason 14:49:06 dpeg: you HAVE invoked it 14:49:09 lol 14:49:21 but I guess that was your evil plan this whole time 14:49:27 dpeg: taking all of Ukraine, Lithuania and eastern parts of the mainland 14:49:31 SamB: I am pretty sure that Poland was better off with Kaczinski 1 dead. So it was a gambit for his country. 14:49:39 kilobyte: I know, I know. 14:49:44 omg, a master plan coming from a german. everybody hide! 14:49:55 relax 14:50:08 it's just an *engineering* plan 14:50:09 * dpeg puts ten toy tanks on the table. 14:50:14 <3 14:50:45 ok, well, it's like comparing AIDS to the Black Death. 14:51:08 kilobyte: ah bit, yes. But as a German I have little choice but to take the other side. 14:51:10 "pest eller kolera" 14:51:22 Skylla and Charybdis 14:51:34 php or perl 14:51:46 * kilobyte spanks bhaak! 14:51:49 bhaak: php is built in perl ... so perhaps not 14:51:57 PHP is not built in perl 14:51:59 if only it still was 14:52:07 then it might not be so terrible! 14:52:18 The Swiss army is preparing to liberate Southern Tirol by bike. 14:52:28 dpeg: motorbike, or regular ? 14:52:37 regular, of course -- the environment! 14:52:39 SamB: you can be assured they'd turn taint checking and any other security feature off 14:52:53 kilobyte: hrmm 14:53:02 given the quality of php it would probably cause the perl vm to implode and retroactively wipe itself from existence 14:53:04 dpeg: You do realize constriction is in NetHack, right? :P 14:53:06 actually, no you can't 14:53:19 dtsund: not the way I set it up, no 14:53:32 * SamB bets there'd be patches to turn it back on 14:53:37 You mean hugging from those bears? 14:53:49 I was thinking of rope golems, but sure 14:54:02 Perl gives you a huge amount of flexibility to write it badly; also well, but that's done less often 14:54:07 BlastHardcheese: you know PHP was originally a Perl package, don't you ? 14:54:15 whereas PHP pretty much /forces/ you to write it badly 14:54:51 Perl's Hateful Progeny 14:55:01 dtsund: and Nethack is pretty symmetric, you can also use it when polymorphed into a rope golem? 14:55:11 I think so 14:55:21 yep 14:55:26 * dpeg has the suspicion that a small, good game could've been hidden under Nethack's crust. Nobody will ever find out. 14:55:41 although you become immune to the effect when polymorphed yourself, as NetHack can't distinguish "monster constricting you" and "monster you are constricting" 14:55:52 dpeg: nethack has sokoban 14:56:03 Zannick: that is part of the crust, yes. 14:56:12 even the NetHack devteam realise that some people might not want to go there 14:56:14 ais523: hehehehe 14:56:24 part of the reason "vanilla gameplay" is a goal of Ace is so I don't have to justify things like Sokoban 14:56:32 nethack still has a devteam? 14:56:35 Pat did reply on rgrn these days. 14:56:37 (which I must get round to implementing as a Crawl vault some day so that you can reject it) 14:56:43 SamB: yes, they're just mostly useless 14:56:53 btw, Sokoban is really interesting combat for terrain 14:56:57 SamB: ofc, mummies don't die 14:57:02 ais523: terrain for combat ? 14:57:10 you can't get into melee because of the boulders, and can't destroy the boulders because it disrupts the puzzle solution 14:57:16 ais523: Sokoban would rock if they'd have taken the trouble to come up with a random layout generator. 14:57:38 Heh, rock 14:57:46 dpeg: that would have been pretty good 14:57:55 dpeg: i was about to say, "now, if you could implement a randomly generated (i.e. non-spoilerable) sokoban, with shifting walls ..." 14:57:56 dpeg: I ended up as a level contributor to an unrelated-to-roguelikes because I was looking into random Sokoban generators precisely for NetHack 14:58:02 perhaps Ace will have randomly generated Sokobans eventually 14:58:16 mumra: shifting walls are not a good idea 14:58:23 dpeg: ... "then, it might take fully 10 seconds longer for the patch to get rejected" ;) 14:58:27 maybe even Crawl will, I'm moderately good at writing stupidly complicated random level gen algos in Lua 14:58:38 they would either make the puzzle unsolvable or too easy 14:58:41 mumra: the boulders /are/ shifting walls 14:58:47 I forget how the rules go 14:58:50 ais523: http://larc.unt.edu/ian/research/sokoban/ ? 14:58:55 if you think about it, Sokoban's nothing but shifting walls 14:59:10 ais523: the layouts wouldn't need to be perfect. And you could spice them up with monsters, as you say. The Sokoban idea is not bad per se, it is just woefully implemented. Which wasn't a problem if there were progress. 14:59:18 the problem with randomly generated sokoban levels is that people will probably make solvers 14:59:20 dtsund: I've had fun using SokEvo for that sort of thing 14:59:30 like what happened with labs before lab shifting 14:59:35 for NetHack, though, I think I'm going to use an entirely different approach 14:59:54 Zannick: is it that big a deal? 14:59:55 Zannick: which is why i suggested wall shifting for sokoban :) 14:59:59 their loss, really ... 15:00:15 SamB: well, mine too, I'm trying to continue NetHack development by myself 15:00:24 while feeding ideas to bhaak for his harder variajnt 15:00:27 variant 15:00:35 SamB: not really? except for speedruns etc. 15:00:51 or people who don't like it and just want to get through it 15:01:06 just ban sokoban from competitions 15:01:15 speedruns don't visit Sokoban, or don't visit more than its first level 15:01:20 I mean, make it an optional thing 15:01:34 it is optional 15:01:50 I'm talking about a hypothetical Crawl sokoban 15:02:11 I really considered having Boulder Dash in Crawl once :p 15:02:32 you're forgetting design rule #1 :-) 15:02:33 Boulder Dash is still one of the greatest games ever 15:02:46 explained as a "slope" so you know why gravity affects boulders but not you or monsters 15:02:58 * SamB can't recall what boulder dash is either 15:03:15 * SamB is probably also getting it confused with sokoban in his head 15:03:23 kilobyte: if it uses slopes, you could have boulders travelling in directions other than down, which could be interesting 15:03:35 * SamB must go help pick up dog post-surgery 15:03:37 kilobyte: although, turning butterflies into diamonds sounds infinitely abusable ;) 15:03:53 mumra: had to convey the direction in console 15:04:04 mumra: :p 15:04:09 doesn't console have arrows ? 15:04:27 wouldn't look Crawly 15:05:05 of course, I since realized that idea would be insane 15:05:27 but, you can use it for your NetHack variant, NetHack never let sanity go into the way of design :) 15:06:25 kilobyte: not design, ideas. 15:07:30 kilobyte: in that case. that would be me. ais523 said just a few minutes ago on another channel that he tries to design acehack as a saner nethack. *i* don't have such impediments 15:07:35 seriously, though: Boulder Dash gives you too many ways to get stuck to make sense in Crawl 15:07:41 bhaak: <3 15:07:45 dpeg: regarding Demigod builds, it's probably easiest if you look at the build texts on my git repo 15:07:47 dpeg: http://gitorious.org/~mumra/crawl/mumra-crawl-2/blobs/demigods/crawl-ref/source/dat/database/monbuild.txt 15:08:16 mumra: fine, but please tell me what I should do for you. What's most urgent? 15:08:19 kilobyte: do DigDug instead, then >;) 15:08:59 dpeg: the first thing is getting at least a "[god name] minion 1" for every single god 15:09:41 dpeg: those minions will be used for all levels of minion, if no higher level number is defined 15:10:41 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 15:10:46 hi 15:10:46 galehar: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 15:10:51 !messages 15:10:51 (1/2) dpeg said (3d 21h 10m 31s ago): Respawning could need more thought anyway: don't just exclude jellies from the list -- we don't want any trivial monsters either. A respawned dragon or giant is fine, many monsters are not. 15:11:10 !messages 15:11:10 (1/1) kilobyte said (9h 30m 1s ago): is there a reason to save can_train between sessions? 15:11:18 mumra: okay, I'll see what I can do. If/when I come up with something, I'll mail. 15:11:32 galehar: bonsoir 15:11:41 galehar: lut 15:12:24 wow. french greeting tonight 15:12:29 dpeg: Trog and Ash are the only ones with a semi-decent set of minions defined so far. 15:12:31 ghallberg: where are you from? 15:12:49 mumra: it would be so much easier and cleaner to do that in C++ or Lua... 15:12:57 kilobyte: since you reset it on load, no reason 15:13:12 mumra: okay, some more should be easy 15:13:12 galehar: sweden 15:13:30 galehar: ok, lemme drop it then 15:13:32 kilobyte: i thought doing it through db text files was actually cleaner, since it's a system built around random weighted substitutions 15:13:42 kilobyte: Lua or C++ would be a hideous mess of special casing 15:14:17 any english crawler around? 15:14:30 mumra is a Brit 15:14:41 He shaves the queen daily. 15:14:53 kilobyte: and more facilities can be added to the textdb and MONS systems if anything isn't possible 15:15:10 galehar: yes, i'm a brit, from robin hood country 15:15:25 I'm just gonna bad_idea this one immediatly: co-op crawl. 15:15:26 kilobyte: I also thought that using a text file is pretty good. Jibes well with all the speech lines needed for demigods, imo. 15:16:12 kilobyte: it also makes it really easy to tweak without recompilation or even understanding any programming languages 15:16:51 ghallberg: or deathmatch! 15:16:52 kilobyte: finally, one possibility is supporting LUA within the textdb files (which is already there for descriptions, just not for the speech files) 15:17:05 kilobyte: I'm thinking full firendly fire. Kind of like magica. 15:17:20 ghallberg: the problem is, how long would a turn last? 15:17:31 Yeah... 15:17:42 * galehar wanted to troll about france vs england rugby match but sees that the topic is actually about crawl 15:17:56 galehar: You shouldve been here earlier. 15:17:56 it would be nasty if the other player takes unpredictably long to move 15:18:11 while a realtime game wouldn't be too roguelikish... 15:18:11 galehar: you've won? Do you still have that 2 metre monster in your ranks? 15:18:15 kilobyte: Yeah, it would require some coordination. 15:18:20 galehar: haha, unfortunately i'm the least caring-about-sports person i know 15:18:38 galehar: although i can pass some trollings onto my housemates who do care about rugby :) 15:18:47 mumra: right after Churchill, that is. 15:19:01 dpeg: yeah, we beat the bloody english. And no, Sebastien Chabal isn't playing the world cup 15:19:05 kilobyte: We could set a timeout, after the first player moves you hvae 30 sec or you rest. 15:19:11 dpeg: well, i don't *know* Churchill... 15:19:31 galehar: congrats! 15:19:51 I wish rugby was more popular here, I think it would suit me. 15:20:30 I wish I weren't so old. I tried playing and hurt me twice :( 15:21:00 -!- Torokasi has joined ##crawl-dev 15:21:31 galehar: you have children, let them play. You better stay indoors :P 15:21:53 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:21:56 galehar: of course, hearing that the french beat us at *anything* does inspire a certain sense of patriotism ;) 15:23:04 Well, the French at least managed to do away with kings and queens. Not like the inconsequential Britons. Poor Cromwell is still rotating... 15:23:18 dpeg: right. I think the little one will like rugby. he is very physical :P 15:24:29 Good! 15:25:21 dpeg: we did away with kings and queens, we just had the sense to transmute them into a money-making tourist trap instead of outright giving them the chop 15:27:55 (note: i am in some way being ironic, but even i'm not sure exactly how) 15:28:36 mumra: I have the hunch that you lose your shirt on the royal household. Those voracious lords and ladies just won't stop. 15:29:31 kilobyte, galehar, elliptic: setting up wiki page on traps. (Again, not a near future target.) 15:30:57 dpeg: oh, I didn't answer your latest mail, but I thought about it. 15:31:39 dpeg: I still don't like much the trap spawn. It they spawn during combat, then it means they have more chance of just randomly killing players. 15:31:42 Tell me! 15:31:53 no, because they shouldn't do damage 15:32:04 think web/item loss rather than damage 15:32:15 s/web/net/ 15:32:27 so, no mechanical traps, just net and cloud traps? 15:33:14 or summon traps 15:33:23 damage traps are bad 15:33:34 I thought the point of cloud traps was to have a strategical impact. So they don't need to spawn during combat, do they? 15:33:35 also boulder/iood traps 15:33:35 incapication is good 15:33:54 s/incapication/correct spelling/ 15:34:12 i think cloud traps can have tactical and strategic value 15:34:17 anywyay, I think traps are more interesting just before combat, rather than a completely random chance to spawn during combat 15:34:20 galehar: the bit with the strategical impact was a blunder (and minmay caught me). 15:34:23 there are the immediate tactics of "how do i escape these clouds" 15:34:26 They'd be fine tactically =) 15:34:42 galehar: if you do that, luring will become a no-brainer 15:34:47 but the item destruction is a strategical effect, right? 15:34:55 yes 15:35:16 mumra: but having it occur in combat means that "stashing upon entering a level" does not work 15:35:23 luring? You mean luring monsters into the traps? 15:35:32 no, luring monsters away from their traps 15:36:08 oh, and traps would make noise... so you can wake them all if you're clumsy 15:36:53 galehar: I am half-finished, let me go the last inches as well 15:37:20 galehar: the MP traps haven't been mentioned ... they're only relevant during combat 15:37:35 here is what can work: a mechanical trap that deals damage then monster jump on you. Can be done by giving alarm to random traps (often, they'll be monsters nearby attacking you before you're rested) and simple vaults (a trap, and a few monsters hidden nearby) 15:39:18 what i'm tending to be in favour of is most traps being vaults; that way, you can regulate nearby monsters etc. in any way appropriate for the trap 15:39:38 galehar: please be aware of the following two grinds: (i) explore slowly (walk, wait, wait, walk,...) in order to not stumble into traps; this is tedious but could become optimal; (ii) if traps are placed upon level building (along with monsters), the player is advised to lure all monsters into known territory (and explore carefully after dispatching them). 15:39:53 mumra: ^ 15:39:55 (we can have a 'trap' vault tag and make trap generation controlled independently of normal vaults) 15:40:41 maybe monsters should be less likely to blunder into traps in the normal game ... 15:40:43 Therefore, traps should come after monsters. 15:40:54 SamB: oh, I take that for granted (it is already on the wiki page). 15:41:28 in zotdef, of course, the traps are owned by the player and they totally should continue to do so ;-) 15:41:34 yes 15:41:53 dpeg: vaults can be spawned ad-hoc; it needs a small modification to vault placement so we can place the traps when required without interfering with local architecture 15:42:39 mumra: this is more complicated than what I have here 15:45:05 dpeg: there's never a problem with single-tile vault traps, they can just be placed on the square the player has stepped onto. they allow a much wider range of effects than hard-coded traps. 15:46:25 dpeg: and vaults of course have the advantage of a ready-made system for tuning them to specific levels and branches 15:50:14 (i suppose what i'm generally getting at is that vaults, just like the text databases, are the best way to add content to the game; in an ideal world the C++ engine would just define the parameters, and content files define the actual game) 15:51:27 crawl is a lot of the time 50/50 divided between those concerns ... an example is Uniques. a large number of uniques could be defined *entirely* thru MONS specifications, rather than hard-coded on a new MONS_* enum ... 15:52:04 well, I don't think we're set up to do that well, though 15:52:15 SamB: on the contrary, i think the setup is already there 15:52:22 it would work better if our *normal* monsters were defined outside the engine too 15:52:43 SamB: uniques are already entirely placed thru vaults. actually there's little need for the MONS_* definition. 15:53:18 Some of them actually matter to the engine, though 15:53:20 if you create spells for the abilities the unique is going to have, you can then just specify those spells in the vault 15:53:34 some of the stuff they have is wierder than that 15:53:38 what about the twins? 15:53:47 SamB: everything could be done thru spells and/or flags, no need to hardcode anything for a particular MONS 15:53:51 mumra: this is partially a flaw with uniques. Them not using genuine code is a bad sign. 15:54:34 I still say there's a reason we have a big list of monsters in the engine 15:55:25 I'm not saying that the fact that all of this stuff is hardcoded in the C++ is exactly ideal 15:55:34 However, I agree that having the actual uniques placement (chances, depths) in vaults rather than code is good. 15:56:53 I guess what I'm trying to say is that it would be nice if the monster database could somehow be kept outside of the engine :-) 15:57:08 I think that's better than *faking* uniques 15:57:11 dpeg: You can create a new spell or flag for a specific unique, and have no other monster using it, but it decouples specific uniques from specific abilities (allowing you to e.g. more easily *reuse* variations of that ability, which could still translate to other unique behaviours) 15:58:05 mumra: do you follow my thinking? 15:58:11 SamB: the primary benefit of externalising monster definitions, which I'm sure you will appreciate, is reducing compile times :) 15:58:18 yes, quite 15:59:01 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:59:02 but I don't think the definitions of actual uniques belong in the levels, either 16:00:04 stuff like the hungry kobolds and spriggan baker are fine, of course 16:00:28 FR: Spriggan Bakers should always drop a corpse. 16:00:36 It's supposed to be guaranteed food. 16:00:39 SamB: I follow your thinking. I guess the best situation would be if all monsters can be defined by a set of behaviours, spells, etc.; and then the whole monster database can reside in some text files instead of some quite astronomically huge .cc files 16:00:58 mumra: exactly 16:01:02 but not the .des files 16:01:32 SamB: I don't see .des files as level definitinos per se; they're *content* definitions 16:01:49 SamB: where "content" can be a whole level, a small chunk of a level, an individual monster, etc. 16:01:50 well, I'd give the monster ones a different extension anyway 16:02:06 Unreal does the same thing, you know! 16:02:34 SamB: but the whole vault system is so expressive and flexible, why can't it just be expanded a small amount to take in new scenarios, rather than having a separate system and therefore a separate syntax? 16:02:51 well, I'm not ruling that out 16:03:01 * dpeg is busy drawing examples for the wiki page. 16:03:07 SamB: the MONS specification lets you create nearly any unique in the game already, except for hard-coded behaviours (which could be easily replaced by flags right now) 16:03:23 note that unreal only uses different extensions, not actually different file formats, for different types of resources! 16:04:03 mumra: well, you can't actually define a *monster type* using ta MONS: line, though 16:04:03 SamB: the only thing MONS doesn't allow you control of is flags ... and that wouldn't be too hard 16:04:37 SamB: what is a "monster type" relevant for, if you are able to specify all the monster's behaviours, flags and attributes? 16:04:50 It would be nice to be able to refer to it 16:05:02 can you give an example? 16:05:37 well, for the non-uniques, you like to be able to *place* them, right? 16:05:37 (also, it would be easy to give MONS a monster_type parameter!) 16:05:46 I think it's more than that 16:05:51 vaults already allow incredible control over placement 16:06:18 can you give a *specific* example? ;) 16:06:58 well, how are you expecting *normal* monsters to be *used*? 16:07:33 well, i wasn't originally stating that normal monsters should be externalised (that was your idea!) 16:07:40 oh, well, true 16:07:43 you weren't 16:08:03 but, vaults allow you to specify appropriate depths for them 16:08:09 hmm 16:08:14 *and* you can supplement that with lua 16:08:22 but a monster is still not a vault... 16:08:48 so, here's an example. you have a "ranged_monster" vault. it selects an appropriate ranged monster for the current absolute level. 16:09:16 for any given level, you spawn [x] number of vaults that have the "monster" tag. 16:09:20 *job done* ;) 16:09:48 also, this would totally not work for zot defense 16:10:05 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 16:10:07 -!- Zaba has quit [Changing host] 16:10:07 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 16:10:38 why not? you use lua markers to specify areas where it's ok to spawn new monster vaults. then you hijack abs_level and return a level appropriate for the current state of zot defense, 16:11:11 (actually, i assume there's already a system that specifies where its ok to spawn monsters) 16:13:57 anyway, how would you repurpose these monsters for *other vaults*? 16:14:21 and, say, re-equip them? 16:14:50 it kind of seems like this is an issue over interpretation ... you're interpreting that a vault is architectural, whereas in reality a vault can specify all kinds of things, down to the exact monsters that are spawned on a specific tile, and can do so in a massively fine-grained fashion. 16:14:50 i see vaults as *content definitions* ... the term "vaults" is basically outdated due to all the things the system has been expanded to support 16:15:33 SamB: what do you mean by *other vaults* ? 16:15:33 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:dungeon:traps 16:16:23 well, I mean, if I wanted to place, say, a gnoll in your system, how would I do it? 16:17:13 SamB: do you realise that MONS definitions in vaults allow you to specify an exact inventory and/or spell list for a monster (or various levels of lower-level randomisation) if you so wish? 16:17:22 yeah 16:17:34 I've used it in wizmode 16:17:40 SamB: i think the key would be adding a new declaration for vaults. e.g. MNAME: gnoll 16:17:42 it's a little wony there 16:18:14 thereby any vault that used MONS: gnoll would then sub-vault the MNAME: gnoll vault for generation 16:18:24 if we actually come up with a way to define a type of monser in .des syntax, sure 16:18:43 maybe *.des should just be renamed *.crawl :) 16:18:52 nah 16:19:05 would conflict with everything! 16:19:18 (commits and patches, I mean, not other programs) 16:19:21 what's des short for? design, i assume? 16:19:33 I was thinking "description" 16:19:56 nah, descriptions are in a separate system, and they use *.txt 16:20:04 well, okay, there is that 16:20:11 I dunno what it stands for ;-P 16:20:44 and surely, the whole thing that people think is so awesome about git, is that it can tell when files have been renamed, right? 16:20:46 ;) 16:21:13 oh, right, it can 16:21:31 but regardless, I don't think naming them ".crawl" would help 16:21:47 poeple might think that meant "crawl save" or something! 16:22:11 * mumra actually prefers SVN where you simply have to specify when a file has been renamed ... SCM's thinking for themselves is a bit scary :S 16:22:51 SamB: i think the majority of pundits have little or no knowledge or caring about extensions 16:23:10 SamnB: they are simply an interface convenience for windows users such as myself 16:23:11 fine, fine 16:23:19 hah 16:23:28 we use them for other things, too, you know 16:23:45 ... make rules ... 16:23:51 ... text editor mode selection ... 16:23:54 yeah, but they're utterly arbitrary 16:24:12 like, the first example that comes to mind, is the *.txt files in crawl 16:24:30 y'know, all those files that are a specific textdb format, but are just named *.txt ... 16:24:38 yeah 16:24:43 I know 16:24:49 or the config files 16:25:01 that's why MIME uses magic numbers to figure out the *actual* type of content 16:25:11 MIME doesn't involve magic numbers 16:25:18 uh, yes it does 16:25:41 it involves attaching named content-types to things by means of headers 16:25:50 -!- jle has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:25:53 are you saying you can tell the difference between an mp4 audio file and an mp4 video file purely by extension? 16:26:18 no, I'm saying that MIME doesn't know how to tell the difference between those 16:26:40 you have to include that in your email headers if you want it to be clear 16:26:47 ok, a slight misunderstanding: MIME tells you the type of file when you're downloading something. But the *server* has to invoke magic numbers to work out which MIME type it's serving ... 16:26:58 perhaps 16:27:04 so, magic numbers have to be used to server MIME headers 16:27:18 therefore, MIME relies on magic number 16:27:40 (i only relate this example because it's prominent in my work!) 16:27:43 more they use lists of rules for assigning MIME types based on extension, though 16:27:55 what kind of rules? 16:28:07 depends on the server 16:28:12 i.e. how do you tell the difference between mp4 audio or video? 16:28:35 ...the only way is with magic numbers (i can absolutely guarantee this, if you wanted to look into it!) 16:29:49 or based on the server being configured differently for different directories! 16:30:09 that sounds even worse than magic numbers! 16:30:15 Yeah, probably 16:30:29 e.g. if someone uploads an mp4 file to a server, how do you decide which directory to put it into? 16:30:49 but I'm not positive that file(1)'s magic can actually tell... 16:31:37 magic numbers are irrefutable ... because uh... [hand-waving] they're magic! 16:32:04 file's magic is not exactly turing complete, afaik 16:33:43 iirc "mp4" is actually quicktime format? 16:34:12 SamB: [lol ;)] what you've got to realise is that i've spent the last few years building a video streaming and uploading website. so this is an area i've invested a lot of time in. MIME magic numbers are, AFAIK, the only known method for distinguishing file types on regular server OS's 16:35:00 mumra: and yes, typically you would take a closer look at files when they're being uploaded ... 16:35:30 SamB: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG-4_Part_14 16:36:18 SamB: generally on servers you don't have the CPU time for fully parsing and validating each and every file that's uploaded. magic numbers do the job very quickly and effectively. 16:36:31 but I think you actually have to feed those things to a program that understands the container format before you can reliably identify what's in 'em... 16:36:37 sure, you don't parse the whole file 16:36:54 what did I say, QuickTime format! 16:37:14 "since MPEG-4 Part 14 is a container format, MPEG-4 files may contain any number of audio, video, and even subtitle streams, making it impossible to determine the type of streams in an MPEG-4 file based on its filename extension alone. In response, Apple Inc. started using and popularizing the .m4a filename extension, " 16:37:26 yada yada 16:37:42 mumra: I'm just saying I don't think the magic numbers would tell you more than "it's a QuickTime file!" 16:37:46 i am quite happy to say "apple are to blame for all of my woes" 16:38:24 hey, MS uses the same format for WMV and WMA 16:38:40 but, that's still not true: magic numbers still offer a differentiation 16:38:52 that quote says *file extensions alone* 16:39:30 but sometimes the headers that need to be looked at to see what stream(s) are provided are nothing like fixed in location... 16:40:14 so: no, mp4 is not a quicktime format - it's a format *invented* by apple but it's not quicktime 16:40:24 03galehar * r11e1df286590 10/crawl-ref/source/itemprop-enum.h: Purge obsolete code. 16:40:27 03galehar * rdd334ff0f0c6 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-death.cc: Use mpr instead of mprf. 16:40:28 03galehar * r507792f4228c 10/crawl-ref/source/abyss.cc: Don't create rooms when morphing the abyss (#4719). 16:40:29 03galehar * r164f1c65895a 10/crawl-ref/source/invent.cc: Whitespace fix. 16:41:06 mumra: I'm talking about the file format, not the compression codecs 16:41:16 ghallberg: does ff0f0c6 make sure that vaults are untouched by morphing? 16:41:34 ghallberg <--> galehar 16:41:48 SamB: well exactly, the file format is nothing to do with the codecs 16:42:00 so the file format magic won't help 16:42:51 dpeg: what's ff0f0c6? (unknown revision). Are you talking about the abyss fix I just pushed? 16:42:56 galehar: ah, you say so on Mantis :) 16:42:57 yes 16:43:33 galehar: written up the trap proposal. It is probably dense and hard to read. Made example pictures for you. 16:44:10 you phrased it like you think I'm thick :P 16:44:25 sorry, didn't mean it like that 16:44:32 * dpeg suspects that galehar is slim and tender 16:44:36 too many words, let's put pictures for galehar! 16:44:51 dpeg: I know, I find it funny :P 16:45:00 One can never be too sure with the French. They're good at rugby, but reading? :P 16:46:26 Vaults were already not supposed to be morphed. But from evilmike's description, I think they were erased by _abyss_create_rooms 16:46:44 ah 16:47:23 not sure what it's for (rooms in abyss?), but it certainly has no place in morphing 16:47:29 ff0f0c6, from dd334ff0f0c6 16:47:43 dd334ff is probably more what you wanted to say there 16:48:11 as those 12 characters are an abbreviation so the ff0f0c6 is not actually the end of it 16:48:28 the morphing code is entangled with the normal abyss level (or area) generation. 16:48:41 Zannick: yeah, he tried to trick me 16:55:51 SamB: let's nb 16:55:54 hmm 16:56:00 SamB: 16:56:01 nb ? 16:56:05 gah 16:56:42 SamB: let's backtrack a second and remember that MIME types were only a side discussion in something actually about crawl 16:56:49 true! 16:57:57 basically, as long as a file is in a subdirectory *under* crawl, we can assume that it may have special significance to crawl over and above whatever any other interpreter may have to say 16:58:54 fine 16:59:19 so the monster definitions could just be given a cerrtain *directory* under dat/des/ 16:59:27 if we decide to do them that way 17:00:01 peronsally, i'm in favour of long-winded namings of things over three-letter-acronyms 17:00:14 so i would go with /content/*. 17:01:12 but, we'd have a lot of questions to answer first, AND this would probably result in complete save incompatibility... 17:01:44 whose questions, and what incompatibility 17:01:57 well, like, how to handle species and genus 17:02:17 or are you thinking we'd still have a huge enum of monster types? 17:03:09 well ok *if we went as far as* moving all monsters to an external DB, we would see be dealing with "magic text strings" vs. "magic enum strings" which, realistically, are the same thing 17:03:57 and then there'd be how to deal with any type reference that might remain in the C++ 17:04:56 in terms of save compatibility ... you're talking about each text string being associated with a numerical identifier ... impossible, of course, so let's give up 17:05:42 oh 17:05:58 corpses/chunks would need reworking 17:06:11 -!- syraine has joined ##crawl-dev 17:07:09 they couldn't store monster types in a plus slot anymore! 17:07:29 let mu just say something very pertinent: speific type referencing would be completelely outdated with the system i've described 17:07:43 each monster would be a set of abilities 17:08:20 one of those abilities could be "this monster has extra AC" "this monster has extra rF" etc 17:09:28 i'm basically talking about decoupling monster abilities from the monster enum 17:09:28 actually, that's not true 17:09:43 player races also have species/genus, don't they? 17:09:52 well, okay... 17:10:53 we're talking about "species abilities" + "genus abilities" in a properly modular system .... 17:11:05 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:11:08 You guys are getting pretty far out... 17:11:47 a bit ;-P 17:12:33 dpeg: perhaps the problem is that i started drinking rum a while ago, and perhaps i should stop or quit talking at about this point ! 17:13:00 Don't touch the demigods in the inebriated state! Better to talk about grand plans in ##crawl-dev. 17:14:42 don't worry, I don't know how it works! 17:14:58 I was just thinking that it *would* be nice not to have all that stuff hardcoded 17:15:23 SamB: since you've taken a liking to ZotDef... do you feel prepared to also address ZD balance? 17:15:57 I was thinking of doing a survey about that... 17:16:10 sounds awesome 17:16:17 ... and asking anyone who hit level 10 to take it ;-) 17:16:36 It would need someone with experience on tower defense games to keep ZD alive. 17:17:03 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:17:05 SamB: apologies if it sounded like i was arguing against you .. i think we're both trying to justify the same point .. namely some decoupling of stuff that is impenetrably hardcoded at present 17:17:10 hmm, I haven't played many of those, actually 17:17:19 mumra: hey, I don't mind arguing 17:17:30 are bats still level 1 enemies in zd? 17:17:36 what I mind is angry arguing 17:17:57 Zannick: you think they should get postponed? 17:18:46 mumra: DCSS has a decent record of separating code from data. 17:18:46 SamB: ok, so you just need to be aware of my angry face >) which to date i've not had to invoke :) 17:18:49 SamB: their speed is the huge factor there, cause their target is not you anymore 17:19:02 Zannick: I know 17:19:24 i was asking in case the answer was no, in which case i might try zd again ;) 17:19:31 SamB: and a general knowledge of Crawl changes is also crucial for keeping ZD alive. 17:20:02 dpeg: that's my object with the Demigod stuff, and consequentially i think the philosopgy can be applied to other areas 17:20:28 I was going to do the survey for lack of a better way to get the viability right for the startup menus... 17:20:56 ... and because I think some races are just too hard (or impossible) at the moment 17:21:03 SamB: surveys are always good. jpeg and I are preparing one for 0.10 release. 17:21:13 how do you intend to deliver it? 17:21:14 SamB: oh, I wouldn't worry about taht too much. 17:21:18 dpeg: i was somewhat surprised by 1KB's reaction earlier, but thank you for your backup! ;) 17:21:39 mumra: kilobyte is a coder, he likes to have content in code form. 17:21:45 SamB: were you around when we did the first one? 17:21:53 dpeg: no! 17:22:33 dpeg: I'm a coder, and as such I hate anything hard-coded (that could be done by lesser minions!) 17:22:34 I started playing at 0.8 a couple months ago... 17:23:00 SamB: you're young :) It'll be a general poll, like that old one, also addressing non-players. In contrast with the old one, it will be web based (last time we used emails) 17:24:19 I was thinking of trying to set up one of the kind that feeds into a Google Docs spreadsheet 17:24:35 SamB: http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/2009-dcss-survey-results 17:24:39 and giving people the URL on hitting Level 10 in zot defence 17:24:55 dpeg: as a coder, the way to make my life easier, is to make more options available to non-coders that help me. 17:24:58 (with one or two things pre-filled) 17:25:08 you ought to just ask everyone and have them fill out what their highest level was 17:25:15 SamB: once you build a defensive structure, the rest is trivial 17:25:26 as a PII user, the way to make my rebuilds faster is to avoid putting things in the C++ if they don't need to be 17:25:31 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 17:25:43 SamB: all that can happen is a huge wave of monsters that tear up the structure with you being unable to do anything 17:26:03 SamB: if that won't happen, you'll win 17:26:15 an unseen horror tore up my best structure in zd way back in the day 17:26:35 by which i mean it escaped and that was that 17:26:39 yeah, I have played a couple of tower defence games enough to understand the basic idea 17:26:48 SamB: well yes, that was my "primary beneift" when it comes to externalising things. but there are way more benefits (such as allowing non-coders to participate) 17:26:51 kilobyte: the idea is that SamB can also improve upon this! 17:27:08 dpeg: yeah, but it'd take some serious thinking 17:27:10 just, the only one I can even remember what it was is the one in FF7 ;-P 17:28:23 kilobyte: you have to survive long enough to get enough zot points / piety / levels to build the defensive structure, though ... 17:28:37 I mean, you can only make dart traps to start with! 17:29:11 oh, another thing I was going to ask about: god adjustments for Zot Defence 17:29:16 I found out that using traps just drains your ZPs, making sure you won't be able to build something that lasts 17:29:30 hmm 17:29:36 should that be the case ? 17:29:40 i always started with plants 17:29:50 block off the exit routes, kill things manually 17:29:58 until you can afford an oklob 17:30:14 if you die at XL 1, you just restart immediately, with no loss. But if you survive and can put one sapling immediately and the second one shortly after, you have a good start. 17:30:14 the trouble with them things is they destroy all the armour 17:30:15 granted, i haven't played in a looooong time (before ZPs) 17:30:33 darts are a waste of time, yes 17:31:01 hmm, too bad our tutorials are all in special modes... 17:31:07 (also hints) 17:38:03 kilobyte: about files.cc:1190 (that is your comment, right?)... it seems that that condition can occur when the game crashes in dungeon generation 17:38:46 so having the check in the if condition instead of the assert allows loading such saves 17:43:20 Zannick: Hmm, I can't find a single mention of bat in zotdef.cc 17:44:05 SamB: monsters were generated by depth as i recall, so the first few monsters were d:1 and thus included bats 17:44:08 so I guess it's just using the *normal* monster selection 17:44:14 yeah 17:44:43 thus, doing anything special is going to be interesting! 17:46:26 edlothiol: beh, I'm really thinking about throwing away the reliance on absdepth0 as the place you're in. It's too fragile, and inconsistent with everything else that names a level. 17:48:50 how did it get to be dark outside the FOV in Zot Defence? 17:49:11 that's not good 17:49:25 kilobyte: I'm going to blame you 17:49:51 X is also not remembering the map 17:50:08 03galehar * re48298e94f3f 10/crawl-ref/source/itemprop.cc: Fix jewellery identification leak with skill training. 17:50:08 03galehar * r9a5bb1c91b8a 10/crawl-ref/source/delay.cc: Fix armour being trainable when wearing armour without EV penalty. 17:50:29 SamB: eh? The whole unmappable thing is no more... 17:50:36 kilobyte: in zot defence, there is supposed to be the complete *opposite* of map rot 17:50:51 I said X wasn't remembering the map 17:50:54 I didn't say it was banned 17:51:33 I think you screwed it up in removing unmappablenes ;-P 17:51:48 and I don't know how that works, so, well... 17:54:20 I see the bug, but the level would have to end up with the unmappable flag as well... 17:55:07 hmm 17:56:37 same applies to the Abyss, but this one at least has the flag 17:57:01 are you saying abyss is messed up too? 17:58:15 yeah, just fixed 17:58:38 but I'm still looking for what could have set the flag on ZotDef 17:58:50 what exactly is the flag called ? 17:59:21 is it "no_magic_map"? 18:00:15 no, that's gone 18:01:20 well, for some reason it's all over in zotdef.des ... 18:02:10 hrm, so it's setting the map rot one instead 18:02:42 yay redundancy... that "externalizing" thing 18:02:45 is there anywhere to put tiles requests 18:03:09 I'm not sure WHY the flag is there, considering you normally start out with the whole map known, sans item types 18:04:28 Mu_: there is a wiki page 18:04:30 Mu_: mantis usually, i think someone usually notices them pretty quick 18:05:28 oh or wiki maybe 18:05:47 for the last couple of spells that were added i think we just did implementables on mantis and tiles got added fairly fast, anyway 18:06:11 since denzi is awesome :) 18:06:24 well i noticed custom enemies don't get the name above their heads on webtiles, so pretty much every customized enemy could use a tile 18:07:57 the wiki is supposed to be the centralized place but no one seems to read it 18:08:34 I made an entry in the wiki. 18:08:37 i think i have yet to post in the forums 18:08:38 Several, actually, on demand. 18:08:45 They usually generate like, two replies. 18:09:18 Mu_: they do in normal tiles? 18:09:20 sometimes it does incite action very quickly 18:09:31 like spriggan zig set 18:09:33 i don't think webtiles puts the name above the head for uniques either samb 18:09:35 -!- mumra has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:09:42 that was a question! 18:09:45 I don't play tiles 18:09:48 oh 18:09:56 yeah uniques and custom enemies get the name 18:09:59 in tiles 18:10:05 while things like "half of the runes don't have unique tiles!" is stuck for a minimum of three versions 18:10:13 if so, maybe webtiles *should* do that 18:10:22 -!- Twinge_ is now known as Twinge 18:10:53 Mu_: If you want a nice tile, ask on Mantis. Denzi will draw you one :) 18:10:59 oki 18:11:15 there's also ontoclasm! 18:12:24 he did things like more runes tiles and the new labrynth tiles and stuff like that 18:18:54 Yes, many good contributers. 18:20:37 kilobyte: So, what I want to do is remove those flags, then? Or did you by some chance fix it? 18:21:24 lemme push 18:21:36 (spam warning) 18:22:10 03kilobyte * ra629b60e1ec6 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-enum.h mon_resist_def.cc mon_resist_def.h tags.cc): Remove unused MR_RES_{PIECE,SLICE,BLUDGEON} on next minor tag bump. 18:22:11 03kilobyte * r1ba6bc24ce05 10/crawl-ref/source/ (6 files): Always identify scrolls of enchant weapon. 18:22:11 03kilobyte * r543e4b079c35 10/crawl-ref/source/item_use.cc: Auto-id scrolls of vorpalize when it would be safe to read-id it. 18:22:11 03kilobyte * r96eb6f53894a 10/crawl-ref/ (11 files in 2 dirs): Roll back Vinterman/Ryak's food changes. 18:22:12 03kilobyte * r62d853f430db 10/crawl-ref/source/ (tag-version.h tags.cc): Upgrade saves from the food experiment. 18:22:12 03kilobyte * r19f903247c0b 10/crawl-ref/source/tags.cc: Remove a no longer needed compat check. 18:22:12 03kilobyte * rd30a592bd110 10/crawl-ref/source/tags.cc: After save compat break, don't save can_train. 18:22:13 03kilobyte * r36e7ce129312 10/crawl-ref/source/Makefile: Make PCH depend on contribs. 18:22:13 03kilobyte * rb88a8265d533 10/crawl-ref/source/Makefile: Properly clean up AppHdr.h.d on "make clean". 18:22:13 03kilobyte * r99c5dff9f0ef 10/crawl-ref/source/ (food.cc food.h potion.cc): Remove code for finding out unknown amulets of gourmand. 18:22:14 03kilobyte * r45ab0dbf4bb0 10/crawl-ref/source/ (food.cc itemname.cc l_you.cc player.cc player.h): Nerf levels 1 and 2 of carnivorousness. 18:22:18 03kilobyte * r3a956086dbbf 10/crawl-ref/source/food.cc: Disallow eating poisonous and HCL corpses at all. 18:22:18 03kilobyte * r56bc1ab90b36 10/crawl-ref/source/ (describe.cc food.cc food.h itemname.cc l_food.cc l_you.cc): Clean up an unused argument. 18:22:18 03kilobyte * rfdf8aec686b6 10/crawl-ref/source/food.cc: Make herbivorousness penalty somewhat more harsh. 18:22:18 03kilobyte * r0baf9c7fbbc2 10/crawl-ref/source/ (files.cc files.h l_debug.cc stairs.cc startup.cc wiz-dgn.cc): Rename load() to load_level(), the former is totally ungreppable. 18:22:19 03kilobyte * r7c9fa886bd24 10/crawl-ref/source/view.cc: Fix map rot levels instantly losing everything. 18:22:19 03kilobyte * r2d389ffa553b 10/crawl-ref/source/travel.cc: Fix local travel not working in disconnected branches. 18:22:20 03kilobyte * rd56c226bc1d0 10/crawl-ref/source/ (dat/des/zotdef/zotdef.des l_dgn.cc): Stop ZotDef trying to prevent magic mapping. 18:22:34 03kilobyte * re187e2a15806 10/crawl-ref/source/fight.cc: Don't cause bleeding on unarmed hits if your claws are covered with gloves. 18:22:47 hossa 18:23:32 grrr 18:23:40 (not done with all changes dpeg wanted, lemme finish them before he complains :p) 18:24:02 * SamB thought he had just finished recompiling! 18:24:07 :p 18:24:26 -!- jle has joined ##crawl-dev 18:24:34 or, well, maybe not even 18:24:45 kilobyte: I think food levels upwards (satiated and better) will be much less of a problem than downwards. 18:25:04 dpeg: that's in 18:25:13 yes, just saying this is probably good 18:25:23 kilobyte: how does "gourmand work in trunk? 18:25:31 * kilobyte hates that part too, breaks the KISS principle. 18:25:49 nobody's going to complain about being *allowed* to eat food that when they wouldn't otherwise have been able to, except people who somehow find it makes the game unbearably easy 18:26:20 and I doubt the food is where many find their most interesting challange! 18:26:34 kilobyte: KISS is good but you also want some complexity in the game. Let's not becoem dogmatic otherwise the game would miss some crucial features. 18:27:51 kilobyte: another uncontroversial one should be this: eating brown chunks always gives nutrition and sometimes a bad effect, which could be either Sick (no regen) or Nausea (no eating), your pick. 18:28:03 dpeg: of course complexity is necessary 18:28:08 This solves the newbie trap I tried to explain but failed. 18:28:16 Actually 18:28:22 If brown chunks made you sick but still gave you nutrition 18:28:29 I would use them a heck of a lot more often. 18:31:39 APPLICATION ERROR #2800 18:31:39 Invalid form security token. Did you submit the form twice by accident? 18:31:41 ?? 18:31:48 says that whenever i try to post an issue to mantis 18:32:23 dpeg: yeah, always giving partial nutrition instead of doing it on a chance is acceptable, on my TODO list 18:32:34 Mu_: did you take forever to write the data in? that's usually why i get that error 18:32:40 oh maybe 18:33:26 ty 18:33:46 dpeg: (pushed just to put the ZotDef fix in) 18:34:00 Tile request for custom enemies (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4723) by Mu 18:34:57 kilobyte: well, I can see your fix worked even without waiting for the recompile, at least ;-) 18:35:32 ...Oh. 18:35:34 Yeah, that happens to me too 18:35:36 I have a great idea. 18:35:40 A strange one, but great. 18:35:44 is there some way the timeout could be increased for that ? 18:35:49 Why not totally scrap the whole thing to do with 'eating threshholds' 18:35:53 And just increase the chance you get sick. 18:35:59 Like, based off the grade. 18:36:04 the mantis thing, I mean 18:36:15 And give nutrition based off that grade, too - like, -1 is worth less than 0 18:36:15 syraine: lets not... 18:36:28 Because then you could eat whatever you liked, just at lower nutrition - 18:36:53 I think I like the current plan okay, lets not screw with it ;-) 18:37:32 People don't ): 18:37:40 put up a poll in ##crawl 18:37:50 Ask people if they like the very hungry etc thing 18:38:25 syraine: that's a pretty bad way to design something. 18:38:41 Which people don't? The most recent plan, already in progress, was to (a) rip out the food reform and (b) put back the 6 or so things that are actually nice 18:39:09 but implemented in a simpler, less-messy way 18:39:14 design by public committee is a great way to design an awful game that never gets made 18:39:30 Sorry, I have been reading Ayn Rand 18:39:36 -!- galehar has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:40:12 Mu_: yeah, the text tags are on my list for Webtiles (although at least in 0.10 there will be the monster list, that will help too) 18:40:14 syraine: the multiple-thresholds is the part that we're starting over for 18:40:16 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 18:40:27 and pools just give you two kinds of answers: "bumps good, nerfs bad" and "I'm a top player, I don't give a damn about everyone else, I like challenge games". And nothing in between. 18:40:27 Okays 18:40:30 because we don't want that anymore 18:40:35 kilobyte: polls 18:40:40 kilobyte: pools give dancing! 18:40:49 edlothiol ah oki. can't hurt to give stuff their own tiles anyway though. 18:40:57 * kilobyte dances on the food reform's grave. 18:41:15 Mu_: no! 18:41:53 kilobyte: I'm hoping I can get something more sensible zot defence players ;-P 18:41:57 +from 18:42:16 Mu_: yeah, more pretty pictures are always nice ;) 18:42:56 SamB: if you pose good questions, you'll get good replies. 18:44:36 yeah, I'll show you guys the poll before I start spamming the players about it in-game ;-) 18:44:44 SamB: that is good! 18:44:51 pools <3 18:45:31 "Should the government aid poor farmers?" vs "Do you want an increase of taxes so laziest farmers can have welfare?" 18:45:58 you can weasel the question to get about any answer you want :p 18:49:09 -!- casmith_789 has joined ##crawl-dev 18:49:18 -!- casmith_789 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:53:58 Kilobyte 18:54:14 "Should government aid a farmer, generally?" 18:54:52 farmers bespoil our land and raze our forests to feed their methane-producing cows 18:55:06 *starves to death* 18:55:10 ;\; 18:55:13 read atlas shrugged 18:55:15 imo 18:55:23 no thanks :) 18:55:30 heh 18:55:37 you just generally described its premise. 18:55:39 <3 18:55:49 kilobyte's comment just implies that you've gotta be careful in case you're actually interested in the results (which those political surveys generally are not: they want support for some direction) 18:56:07 syraine: the problem is, there is no way to have an unbiased question. The best you can do is something 50% between loudest opponents. 18:56:30 kilobyte, I feel that you can have questions that limit subjectivity 18:56:38 that is all 18:56:57 whatever, though - we're arguing about putting it to a vote 18:57:08 and if you're asking people who don't know how to balance a game about balance 18:57:19 then, seriously, what the hell. :F 18:57:24 kilobyte: well, it helps that I'm not planning to rely on averages and totals in evaluating the results 18:57:37 I'm not planning to ask for a vote 18:57:40 syraine, aren't you the person who just wanted to do that re: food reform 18:57:41 I want opinions 18:57:43 syraine: not really: you'd need some _objective_ references, and those cannot be obtained by listening to opinions. 18:58:07 -!- jle has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:58:12 hoping for somewhat clueful ones 18:58:27 and planning to have several essay-compatible sections 18:58:30 mikee_, I was sort of thinking of people's opinions about it 18:58:40 Not of their idea of the balance 18:58:48 getting ideas? Yes. Learning which ideas are the best? Not really. You can study the arguments raised, though -- so asking for opinions is still good. 18:58:53 ok well we are all agreed on the value of opinions then :) 18:58:57 What I meant really was like 18:59:00 ...-.- no we did not 18:59:03 yeah, I was planning to do that ;-) 18:59:06 Do people like it. That is, is it fun. 18:59:09 <3 18:59:42 kilobyte, since I was agreeing with your basic premise, I am a bit confused as to why you're disagreeing with me 18:59:43 :3 18:59:54 the main non-essay things are "what combos do you think should be shown as Viable in the startup menu? Non-viable?" 19:00:14 SamB, this is for zotdef? 19:00:16 like, Ignacio is pretty thoroughly disliked, with claims he's just a boring executioner 19:00:17 mikee_: yeah 19:00:33 that sounds like a good question 19:00:37 should I consider him to be the food reform? Or try to repair him? 19:00:43 it's something i had to think about a lot 19:01:03 that's the whole motivation for making a survey ;-) 19:01:22 gradations 19:01:48 kilobyte: no, because he doesn't take over the entire game, does he? 19:02:05 SamB: good point 19:03:25 * SamB tries playing as a Hill Orc again 19:04:29 I'm still pondering two solutions: 1. an outright removal, 2. not spawning him until you get X pan runes (5?), and even then with a smaller chance. And perhaps not guaranteed, guaranteed uniques in random places are bad. 19:06:46 3. make him more interesting 19:07:06 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:07:19 ok, guess what's the next question :) 19:07:29 how? 19:07:33 :0 19:08:09 kilobyte: this is a bit like the HS, but he could get a little stronger each time? 19:08:18 just in the defensive department, harder to kill 19:08:44 @??ignacio 19:08:45 Ignacio (131) | Speed: 20 | HD: 18 | Health: 250 | AC/EV: 10/15 | Damage: 20, 10, 10, 5 | Flags: 05demonic, evil, see invisible, !sil | Res: 06magic(216), 05fire, 02cold, 10elec, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 15000 | Sp: agony, pain (d17), haste. 19:08:49 gets 1 more speed each time you don't kill him 19:08:56 i thought the current system for spawning him seemed fairly reasonable 19:09:14 at least, i didn't run into him until a decent while into my last pan trip i don't think 19:09:28 -!- Ryak has joined ##crawl-dev 19:09:38 MarvinPA: it's a matter of luck, which probably is not the best thing 19:09:46 ah, true 19:09:51 i've never had any interest in ignacio 19:09:57 What about Murray 19:10:01 if you roll him early, he'll harass you every a couple levels 19:10:03 he doesn't guard anything so he's just something to avoid 19:10:04 1/15 Vestibules of Hell... 19:10:06 really 19:10:10 murray is different 19:10:19 I am not saying that Murray is the same 19:10:26 It's just that it's very rare to find him 19:10:29 -shrug- 19:10:29 i've still never seen murray 19:10:41 You have to get to Hell like 30 times 19:10:51 He's worth less than the curse skull 19:10:52 i don't think that 1/15 is still accurate 19:10:54 @??murray 19:10:55 Murray 1. guards the Vestibule, 2. is a rare spawn, 3. mostly just a fun gimmick 19:10:55 Murray (04z) | Speed: 10 | HD: 14 | Health: 180 | AC/EV: 30/10 | Damage: 20, 20 | Flags: 07undead, evil, see invisible, !sil | Res: 13magic(immune), 05hellfire, 02cold++, 10elec++, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 3644 | Sp: summon undead, torment symbol. 19:10:57 ??murray 19:10:57 murray[1/5]: a mighty demonic skull rolling along the dungeon floor. Summons undead and torments. Only found in 1 in 15 Vestibules. 19:11:05 oh, okay 19:11:08 like i said, 'still' 19:11:14 that entry is really old 19:11:15 oh huh 19:11:16 No, I registered it 19:11:20 No, it wasn't the entry 19:11:23 I recalled that before 19:11:26 oh ok :) 19:11:33 he's 1/4 in one of the vestibules, and 1/8 in the other? 19:12:45 ahh, sometimes the mu vestibule is open and sometimes it's all rock other than the subvaults 19:13:10 do the subvaults include the entries 19:13:15 like, the lava to gehenna 19:13:21 yeah 19:13:25 mm 19:13:39 @??curse skull 19:13:39 curse skull (11z) | Speed: 10 | HD: 13 | Health: 66 | AC/EV: 40/3 | Flags: 07undead, evil, see invisible, lev, !sil | Res: 13magic(immune), 05hellfire, 02cold++, 10elec++, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 1810 | Sp: summon undead, torment symbol. 19:14:09 The last time I checked these entries, Murray was worth less than a Curse Skull. 19:14:12 -smile.- 19:15:21 curse skulls were worth a billion xp for some reason, i reduced it :P 19:15:41 curse skulls ruined forever 19:16:09 .learn add list_of_things_ruined_by_marvinpa 19:16:37 MarvinPA: <3 19:18:34 so you left them barely more than ^(1/3) of what hey were before? 19:22:09 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:dungeon:traps 19:23:20 long term idea to make traps interesting and scum proof, comments welcome 19:24:51 With pictures! 19:29:05 …Why is is that you keep coming up with ways to make the game worse rather than better? I mean, /yes/, this will make traps more interesting, but AFAICT only in the way that Russian roulette is. 19:29:29 how many people actually scum traps? 19:29:41 -!- dtsund is now known as dtsund-away 19:29:48 I want you to write a bot to investigate! 19:29:57 if i want something from a trap, i usually just look up the command to disarm it 19:30:06 I want to see the report on my desk next week. 19:31:05 SamB: how many people did actually draw labyrinth maps? 19:31:37 If it can be done, it will be done. If needed, with scripting help (doy wrote a lab script, for example). 19:32:23 dpeg: demonstrate by writing a bot and finding me the ttyrecs! 19:32:37 SamB: do you want to troll me? 19:32:45 perhaps 19:32:52 i'm not sure who mentioned it, but i liked the idea of t&d just giving you a single chance to detect any given trap 19:32:59 MarvinPA: by me 19:33:01 aha! 19:33:05 it's a good idea :) 19:33:21 fixes all the worries about moving then resting then moving then resting, at least 19:33:39 MarvinPA: although I was also the one who came up with the idea of allowing T&D to find traps at larger distance :) 19:33:57 MarvinPA: yes, the current proposal does this by tieing traps to monsters. 19:35:11 This is a bit softer... if we want monsters which have a high change to come with traps (boggart type), then it is much nicer if the player can search thoroughly. 19:37:17 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 19:37:23 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 19:37:51 alternatively worship ash and never worry about traps ever 19:38:30 HangedMan: not so much different to worshiping Zin and not worrying about mutations etc. 19:38:37 heh 19:39:02 Suggestion: 'traps' which change dungeon features. 19:39:27 e.g. creating a room centered on the now-untrapped square, spawning doors, etc. 19:39:39 portal traps 19:39:45 that seems possible with lua 19:40:08 like banish, but to a portal vault 19:40:14 I once tried experimenting with something like that- you open a (marked) door, the walls crumble, monsters attack from all sides 19:40:17 adom tension room style 19:40:32 "snake pit" traps, teletile you to a closed-off room filled with snakes and another teletile 19:40:42 i was bumbling my way through crawl's lua stuff without actually knowing what I was doing though, so it didn't work well :P 19:41:02 My goal here is to make traps interesting, /not/ to fuck over players who're trying to run away and hit a trap down an unexplored passage. 19:41:14 So, no. No portal traps. 19:41:43 i didn't say that would plunge them into more monsters 19:41:54 maybe more like a lab banish 19:42:04 * Aerdan was responding to evilmike's variant on the theme. ;) 19:42:17 trap that irresistibly polymorphs all other monsters on screen 19:42:25 or any portal vault with the exit not right next to the entrance 19:42:27 Aerdan: my idea involved a door with a warning btw. no autoexplore entering by accident 19:42:54 HangedMan: trap that turns all other monsters on screen to sigmunds 19:43:06 hahahaha 19:43:22 trap that chaos brands all monster weapons 19:43:37 HangedMan: abusable 19:43:41 evilmike: true, but /someone/ would merge the two. ;) 19:43:51 chaos brand is a good thing? 19:44:00 Trap that turns all on-screen monsters to fungi (and then disappears). 19:44:18 oh, maybe it boosts eligability for sacrifice for nemelex or something 19:44:19 these things sound more like bad_ideas entries than serious traps :P 19:44:46 nobody's allowed to submit bad_ideas, so they're slowly leaking out into the general consciousness 19:45:09 Yeah, well. The dungeon-changing traps are intended to be interesting without being actively harmful or otherwise changing the trap mechanic. 19:46:29 stealing idea from another roguelike: trap that spawns more traps across the floor 19:47:19 nkthx 19:48:14 HangedMan: still prone to slow-exploration 19:48:47 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 19:50:16 HangedMan: one of most powerful brands, and against undead even mostly safe 19:50:22 -!- dtsund-away is now known as dtsund 19:50:29 (just shafts) 19:50:44 in exchange for a chance to heal or berserk the target? 19:50:57 although the undead thing yeah 19:52:14 berserk is equivalent to having ~three of that monster -- not immediately deadly in most cases 19:52:42 I wouldn't hit a hydra with chaos, yeah 19:53:01 temporary chaos brand, then? doesn't xom have a chance of doing that? 19:53:05 but even for uniques, you'd just run away 19:53:29 if only berserk was double speed so that it'd be impractical to run away short of scrolls of blinking 19:54:37 chaos is great on a stabber -- a number of effects make opponents stabbable 19:55:05 healing is negative damage 19:55:25 it's only shafts that are the major annoyance 19:57:13 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: zzz] 19:58:52 -!- syraine has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 7.0.1/20110928134238]] 19:59:10 -!- syraine has joined ##crawl-dev 20:00:18 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: rebooting to windows] 20:01:18 -!- HangedMan has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:02:21 -!- HangedMan_ has joined ##crawl-dev 20:02:55 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 20:19:24 -!- HangedMan_ is now known as HangedMan 20:20:04 is Ash not giving you a message on getting the 2* mapping and skill boost thing unlike most other gods and piety rank powers intentional? 20:22:58 -!- Ryak has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:27:27 -!- Ryak has joined ##crawl-dev 20:44:31 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 20:55:50 HangedMan: I don't think so 20:55:55 report it 21:14:54 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:15:08 "expect minor deviations", eh? 21:24:19 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 21:27:35 gah, can't reproduce that 21:31:24 -!- Torokasi has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:45:03 -!- mumra has joined ##crawl-dev 21:51:22 * SamB puzzles over how to make self-exploding grenade spores stop being listed as set off by your pet in high scores... 21:56:02 -!- valrus_ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:59:58 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:02:06 -!- syraine has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 7.0.1/20110928134238]] 22:03:46 -!- HangedMan has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:08:31 -!- mumra has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:09:52 -!- Brannock has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:10:06 -!- Brannock has joined ##crawl-dev 22:11:51 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 22:18:02 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:24:36 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:45:14 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 22:54:47 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 23:13:49 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:19:13 -!- Pingas_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:23:22 -!- Brannock has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:34:31 is there a way to grep git commit messages? 23:37:54 <|amethyst> you mean besides git log | grep ? 23:38:03 <|amethyst> I guess you want the whole commit and not just the line :) 23:39:20 <|amethyst> git show :/broke shows the most recent commit whose message contains the string "broke" 23:41:07 <|amethyst> or HEAD^{/broke} if you want to ignore other branches 23:48:56 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 23:56:54 -!- Twilight-1 has joined ##crawl-dev 23:57:56 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:59:40 -!- Twilight-1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]