00:05:45 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:07:31 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.10-a0-586-g58b7930 (32) 00:12:28 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 00:14:23 -!- 14WAB9MFT has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:23:38 -!- GreatZebu has joined ##crawl-dev 00:23:42 -!- Twilight has joined ##crawl-dev 00:24:08 -!- Twilight is now known as Guest13437 00:25:17 -!- GreatZebu has quit [Client Quit] 00:29:35 -!- Guest13437 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:48:24 -!- Twilight has joined ##crawl-dev 00:48:50 -!- Twilight is now known as Guest4999 01:10:09 -!- cx1213_ has joined ##crawl-dev 01:10:27 -!- cx1213 has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:40:27 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 01:52:35 -!- Guest4999 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:55:24 -!- Guest4999 has joined ##crawl-dev 02:06:59 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 02:43:46 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 02:53:43 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:02:22 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:03:39 -!- evilmike has quit [Quit: something happened] 03:26:09 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:47:06 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 04:03:21 -!- RichardHawk has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:14:56 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 04:14:58 -!- ais523 has quit [Changing host] 04:14:58 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 04:30:45 -!- RichardHawk has joined ##crawl-dev 04:32:46 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 04:43:58 -!- Pingas has joined ##crawl-dev 04:51:07 -!- Pacra_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:51:07 -!- Pacra has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:07:24 !tell dpeg Good work on the trap page overhaul! 05:07:25 Keskitalo: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 05:08:49 !tell mumra I really like the orb of destruction trap idea. :) It sounds fun that you get a chance to avoid the peril *after* you step on the trap. 05:08:58 Keskitalo: OK, I'll let mumra know. 05:14:01 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:14:48 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 05:14:48 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: DCSS Development | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 05:21:59 homing boulder! 05:22:40 I imagine iood would be fun in the open, rolling boulder in corridors. 05:24:50 right 05:25:23 a boulder is slower, so would be more appropriate for shallower depths 05:40:07 03galehar * r66cd98d3f3e8 10/crawl-ref/docs/develop/levels/syntax.txt: Document the mimic vault tags. 05:40:16 03galehar * rfdf483147f81 10/crawl-ref/source/fight.cc: Add alternate messages for critical hits (#4508). 05:40:17 03galehar * r3b3d23f7f2c1 10/crawl-ref/source/ (3 files in 2 dirs): Give a chance for another portal when we mimic a unique one. 05:43:44 galehar: The mimic overhaul sounds really good. 05:44:08 Hehe, I've also completely missed skill training overhaul - there's way too much to check out when I get the chance to play! 05:47:04 -!- Guest4999 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:52:34 -!- galehar has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:55:30 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:00:12 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:00:52 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 06:00:52 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: DCSS Development | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 06:08:49 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:09:31 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 06:09:31 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: DCSS Development | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 06:35:15 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 06:35:18 -!- petete has joined ##crawl-dev 06:39:20 hi 06:39:21 mumra: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 06:39:28 !messages 06:39:28 (1/1) Keskitalo said (1h 31m 18s ago): I really like the orb of destruction trap idea. :) It sounds fun that you get a chance to avoid the peril *after* you step on the trap. 06:49:41 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:49:42 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:50:25 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 06:50:25 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: DCSS Development | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 07:01:53 -!- Pacra_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:06:55 ... 07:07:12 So, I was in the Abyss, and a gateway out got replaced by lava. 07:07:15 Is this intended behaviour. 07:07:18 o= 07:07:31 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 07:11:14 syraine: I guess not 07:11:25 abyss morphing needs to be looked at 07:12:25 It's okay, I was a Naga anyway. (= 07:12:32 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:12:47 syraine: on the old abyss, you'd probably have had the entire map change. at least you had a chance this way :) 07:13:05 mumra: I had a deck of defence and nemelex piety 07:13:07 x3 07:13:12 and flight+swiftness 07:13:23 in the old abyss I could have tombed myself for a few thousand turns 07:13:48 syraine: that wouldn't have affected when the abyss decided to change, surely 07:13:57 no, but the deck has more than one card 07:13:59 =3 07:14:11 so this way I could have run from most things and tombed myself in emergencies 07:14:39 not that i dislike it 07:14:54 so new abyss breaks tomb? well that's a shame ;) 07:14:57 the irritation was simply having a gateway replaced after I'd already been avoiding enemies for a long time 07:15:06 no, that's okay, certainly beneficial 07:15:11 syraine: on old abyss, i had a rune replaced when i was 2 steps away from it 07:15:20 well done =3 07:20:17 the tomb can be marked MMT_VAULT 07:21:18 it won't morph gracefully (can't, even), so I guess either the card needs to be repaired or blocked outright 07:22:33 my main annoyance in the Abyss was when it morphed me into an area where I could only move a few squares before hitting a dead end no matter which way I went 07:22:41 because enemies couldn't get into the area either 07:22:50 so I just had to keep hitting 5 until it morphed again 07:23:55 kilobyte, I think vaults in abyss don't morph at all these days 07:32:49 we could also not morph cells adjacent to the player 07:33:34 Zaba: vaults don't, but if you use the Tomb card, these walls are neither part of a vault or exist in Worley noise used as a basis for morphing, so they'll disappear on the next tick 07:33:57 could mark them as vaults as you've suggested.. hacky, but would work 07:33:59 that's why I'm proposing faking a vault as one of solutions 07:34:01 yeah 07:38:01 well I just tested, the tomb doesn't disappear immediately 07:38:34 it just morphs normally, which means you can expect it to hold up a few turns 07:38:51 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:39:28 yes 07:39:30 that was what happened 07:39:39 I had a vehumet wrath summonings miscast 07:39:48 ie, the next tick 07:40:07 so I used a Nemelex power to draw Tomb from a Deck of Defence 07:40:14 And about three turns later the tomb morphed 07:41:37 kilobyte: what next tick? The abyss morphs every turn now 07:44:27 -!- [1]mumra has joined ##crawl-dev 07:47:14 -!- mumra has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:47:14 -!- [1]mumra is now known as mumra 08:02:51 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 08:06:19 I have a question. 08:06:44 What does this portion of the aevp formula mean? " max(0, 3*base_penalty - str)] " 08:08:13 it means 3 times the base penalty minus strength, unless it would be negative in which case use 0 instead 08:08:51 -!- Keskitalo has quit [*.net *.split] 08:08:52 -!- ZorbaTHut has quit [*.net *.split] 08:08:52 -!- jarpiain has quit [*.net *.split] 08:08:56 -!- joosa has quit [*.net *.split] 08:08:56 -!- Mu_ has quit [*.net *.split] 08:08:56 -!- Napkin has quit [*.net *.split] 08:08:57 -!- Eifeltrampel has quit [*.net *.split] 08:09:07 -!- jarpiain has joined ##crawl-dev 08:09:08 -!- Napkin has joined ##crawl-dev 08:09:08 -!- ZorbaTHut has joined ##crawl-dev 08:09:17 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:09:23 -!- jarpiain is now known as Guest97562 08:09:54 -!- joosa has joined ##crawl-dev 08:16:20 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:17:46 Drowned in Ice Form on autoexplore (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4517) by paplaukes 08:20:06 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:22:05 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 08:23:55 -!- Eifeltrampel has joined ##crawl-dev 08:32:45 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 08:37:08 -!- ixtli has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 08:39:34 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 08:51:29 how about changing the attack delay formula? 08:51:30 https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2518 08:56:52 i don't know about the specifics of that proposal, but something along those lines definitely sounds good to me 08:56:53 what is the benefit from a gameplay standpoint of making speed increase linearly rather than delay decrease linearly? 08:57:02 I'm not really sure what the point is 08:57:14 in terms of having an actual reason to train the skill higher than wherever min delay is, at least 08:57:27 the proposal isn't about that 08:57:36 oh, hm 08:57:40 it's both actually 08:57:57 galehar: how? 08:58:05 I mean if we're messing with the attack delay formula probably should go all the way and set k at 27 08:58:18 if you aren't getting min delay until 27 skill, that isn't a reason to train the skill higher than wherever min delay is 08:58:23 so that you get linear speed increase all the way 08:58:36 in fact it makes it impossible to train the skill higher than min delay :P 08:59:04 elliptic: It will promote training the weapon skill to max 08:59:12 galehar: but why is this a good thing from the point of view of playing crawl? I'm not necessarily opposed to it, I'd just like to see more reasons 08:59:25 the main point is to have a more linear reward for training weapon skills. 08:59:27 ghallberg: that's a different change really 08:59:30 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:59:42 galehar: it won't be linear though... weapon skill also affects damage and to-hit and such 09:00:01 yeah but it would be closer to it 09:00:04 no 09:00:11 well, yes, but it will still be really far from linear 09:00:36 the way attack delay work is very spoilery too 09:00:37 weapon skill's effect on damage per time would be quadratic 09:00:52 attack delay being spoilery is a much better argument imo 09:00:58 well, that doesn't sound bad 09:01:05 galehar: how is this better (unless you also make min delay not happen?) 09:01:38 let's say you reach min delay at skill 27 for all weapons 09:01:40 making min delay not happen until 27 with all weapons would be a huge nerf to nearly all weapons 09:02:05 That's already discussed on the wiki-page though? 09:02:07 well yes, needs to be balanced 09:02:20 ghallberg: which one? 09:02:59 *tavern post 09:03:27 I made a couple balance proposal. But it's not fleshed out. 09:03:43 I'm just testing the water :P 09:03:50 Yeah, but you mentioned that it was a balance issue. 09:05:24 galehar: well, in theory I'm in favour of changes that make choosing how much weapon skill you want less spoilery... but I'd want to see a lot more details :) 09:05:47 my original comments about not seeing the point were for keeping min delay where it is with k<27 09:06:31 I don't think this is a change that I can carry on my own. I'm wondering if anyone would be interested by working on that. 09:07:25 elliptic: if we keep k where it is, it doesn't wreck balance as much, but it's probably also not worth bothering. 09:07:42 galehar: yes, that was my point :) 09:07:59 it would definitely be cool to make fighting more sensible 09:08:41 increasing the effect of stats, making the effect of skill smoother, adding some weapon effects... 09:09:12 yes, the speed change is just a start. 09:09:22 maybe also some weapon stats change 09:09:41 also some weapon axing :) 09:10:03 sure, why not :P 09:10:15 so, would you be interested to work on that? 09:10:26 oh yes let's axe some weapons 09:10:27 should we set this as one of the 0.10 goal? 09:10:44 yeah, I'd certainly be interested in helping with this 09:11:02 so this is the evil lair of the nerfers. -frown- 09:11:11 -shake fiery torch.- 09:11:14 syraine: also buffers! 09:11:19 psh. 09:11:26 "increasing the effect of stats" 09:11:32 "adding some weapon effects" 09:11:41 I had the distinct pleasure of directly dying as a cause of the swiftfly nerf 09:11:45 cool 09:11:57 NaAE in the Abyss )= 09:12:09 I think we haven't finished nerfing swiftness :P 09:12:14 galehar: yes :) 09:12:22 oh gosh >< 09:12:40 I do like it that nagas can't become faster than normal speed without haste now 09:12:55 I always thought that intrinsic speed variability was one of the most compelling reasons why Spriggans were a preferred species. 09:12:56 elliptic: I thought about your ideas for swiftness. I like them. It makes using it for exploring strictly bad, but it keeps its tactical usefulness 09:13:23 at least until kilobyte implements that barding of running unrand 09:13:37 barding of slithering 09:13:42 hoverbarding 09:14:07 next, raise it to L3 and reduce the duration 09:14:10 maybe also scale the speed boost with power 09:14:21 galehar: maybe, yes... the idea was also to make it get worse as the game progresses (because nastier traps). I'm not actually sure how it would play though... it could be annoying because people would want to remember which squares they had walked on previously 09:14:30 speedy slithering, isn't it? 09:14:48 that's the special-cased name for them if they're created by a vault at least, i believe 09:15:24 Lol. "You see here the uncursed naga barding "Hoverbard {+Lev, running, rElec-}"... 09:15:38 galehar: I was also trying to find nerfs other than raising it to L3 because it fits well in the AE book at L2, though of course that isn't really necessary 09:16:08 -thinks- I was checking the popularity of races this evening; why is Centaur so unpopular, do you think? 09:16:23 people don't like needing to eat so much 09:16:43 03MarvinPA * r9f67c7d46973 10/crawl-ref/source/shout.cc: Reduce the stealth boost from umbra 09:16:44 Mm, and that's worse with the food nerf. 09:16:53 03MarvinPA * rda6f40cd4613 10/crawl-ref/settings/init.txt: Remove an obsolete line from init.txt 09:17:21 Would it be unbalanced with normal metabolism; is it already as good as let's say, a Kobold?_ 09:17:27 so, the food reform is called the food nerf now? 09:17:29 players... 09:17:32 Yes. =3 09:17:40 I read it and it's certainly not a buff on average. 09:17:56 The mantis proposal only increases the nutrition of royal jellies, correct? 09:18:03 syraine: centaurs aren't bad at all... they are very strong. a race not being popular doesn't make it weak at all 09:18:13 That's why I asked, elliptic. 09:18:14 =3 09:18:45 elliptic: the barding of speedy slithering... should I? :p 09:19:03 galehar: well, part of the idea as I understand it is to make fewer chunks drop... it is hard to cast that as anything other than a nerf to the player :P 09:19:19 it will become preferred equipment for nagas kilobyte 09:19:20 =3 09:19:22 kilobyte: sure, I think it will work better now that swiftfly is gone 09:19:32 not that it's necessarily a bad thing 09:19:48 syraine: you can't count on an unrand; still, they shouldn't be too good 09:19:52 Exactly. 09:20:03 Those were precisely my thoughts actually. =) 09:20:03 well, that's right, it's a nerf. Less chunks, big nerf to carnivorous and gourmand too. 09:20:34 I rather think of it as a buff in some senses to carnivorous, for the simple fact that nutrition gain is altered per chunk and modified by Carnivore. 09:20:44 Gourmand certainly suffers though. 09:21:24 and what with saprovore? 09:21:44 kilobyte: this could go along with changing how movement speed is computed so that swiftness etc doesn't get multiplied by slowness muts 09:22:01 so that a naga with swiftness and speedy slithering would still only be movement delay 10 09:22:03 saprovore does very well, kilobyte 09:22:10 make the barding of speed guaranteed on D:1 if the player has just died a naga and started another game with a different race. 09:22:40 kilobyte: I guess centaurs could also use an unrand barding for balance, hm 09:23:01 galehar: it's a silly idea, I guess. A randart at most, I'd say a big fat no to a generic brand. 09:23:47 elliptic: Bulldozer barding, makes you slower and tougher. 09:23:52 according to the proposal, carnivore can eat with a forty percent nutrition bonus over base and a fifteen percent (!) bonus over the previous value until engorged, making the mutation extremely valuable. Saprovores treat rotting chunks as clean or contaminated; contaminated chunks give much less nutrition by comparison to clean chunks. 09:23:55 elliptic: yeah, I just wonder what. My best idea so far is ponderous AC+57567347864378 with a nice theme 09:24:04 ghallberg: ... 09:24:11 ghallberg: you damn telepathic copycat! 09:24:15 XD 09:24:54 Juggernaut! -2 Acc, +6 Dam, Ponderous, +8 enchantment 09:24:56 ghallberg: my idea is based on a "Black Knight" whose horse had this piece of gear, yadayada 09:24:59 -shrug- 09:25:07 if we want the centaur barding to give something centaurs usually lack, it could give a nice EV boost or gourmand or sustenance or something 09:25:17 not sure how to theme any of that though 09:25:25 armour that helps you eat food 09:25:26 ponderous AC doesn't sound very good 09:25:29 sustenance could work 09:25:34 makes you half-undead 09:25:56 rN++ rHoly- Hunger- 09:26:19 or rN+ if we want to keep a big AC boost 09:26:27 You could make it Hunger--, rN+++ and +0 09:26:35 maybe even something stronger than regular sustenance, yes 09:26:39 that would make it an interesting change I guess 09:26:39 not rN+++ though :P 09:26:50 rPois if it's making you undead? or not? 09:26:50 well if it's an undeaad 09:26:55 oh yeah 09:27:02 that's the painfully obvious thing I missed 09:27:07 only slightly undeadish 09:27:21 rPois, sInv, Ponderous 09:27:23 barding of the naga 09:27:26 =l 09:28:05 add a lich unique riding an undead horse, make it drop the unrand :P 09:28:07 undying? 09:28:13 MarvinPA_: <3 09:28:54 Can we have the same thing but a giant snake 09:28:55 for the other one 09:29:02 MarvinPA_: they come in pack of 9 and have fixedart rings too? 09:29:06 haha 09:29:06 I want to see a giant snake with a lich on it 09:30:28 syraine: my idea was "lightning scales" {speedy slith, rElec} -- but basing it on anacondas could work too 09:30:49 syraine: and what about skeletal octopodes? 09:31:00 HAHAH. I remember seeing something ridiculous with a skeleton 09:31:07 Like, skeletal moths 09:31:12 what the hell they look like when in lich form? :p 09:31:20 a dessicated one 09:31:32 peat-preserved octopode 09:31:33 skeletal moths would look identical as live ones 09:31:46 exoskeleton is the visible part 09:31:57 apart from their wings 09:32:03 a bit awkies for you =3 09:32:17 (save for colour and tiny hairs, you can't see the other without a microscope) 09:32:25 yeah 09:32:29 also they can't fly cos they dun has wings 09:32:31 =3 09:32:48 so if you usually see your moths with large bones sticking out of their bodies 09:32:48 absolutely. 09:33:21 syraine: a moth's skeleton is the outside. It's carapace. It doesn't have internal bones. 09:34:47 yes 09:35:11 i was not intending to sass your entomology. 09:35:16 another idea. Do you know of a Japanese toy line, "hello kitty"? In Baja Luka I've seen a whole big shop filled with nothing but bags/etc themed upon that -- so some folks have fashion sense that bad. Combine that with my old lich kitty, cousin of Iskenderun idea :p 09:35:40 kilobyte: My daughter loves Hello Kitty... 09:35:50 ghallberg: :p 09:35:56 rather, I was referring to a skeletal moth, in which case its carapace would be extruded to form the structure of its wings. 09:36:14 why am I talking about this =3 09:36:23 terrible idea: unrandart that gives you a passive ability 09:36:42 eg. constriction, like eronarn's plan to offset octopode defenses 09:36:48 (the name "Iskenderun" is a city+province in Turkey, but the only living being I could find in ~10 pages of googling was a famous cat, right on the first page) 09:37:10 kilobyte: I did that for entarex 09:37:18 Trying to find out what exactly it was 09:37:23 I know it has Xena in it 09:37:38 kilobyte: I think it's a shopkeeper name from NetHack, most of which are named after cities in various countries 09:37:39 and I know she looks like a rodent; perhaps 'xena-rat' 09:37:52 http://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Source:shknam.c#line51 09:37:52 so it could be considered canon that Iskenderun was a female felid who liked to swim 09:38:14 mm, I think 78291 mentioned that once ais 09:38:19 ais523: yeah, cities not living beings, sounds right 09:38:36 apparently, all the armor shopkeepers are named after cities in Turky, apart from a couple in the Republic of Georgia 09:38:43 oh, which reminds me 09:41:29 I have on my computer a version of crawl with some drastic changes to Cheibriados, making it like a berserk-style zero piety ability that costs a similar amount of MP, with a spell success modified by Int as well as Invocations, and the spell power having half the total effect given by high Piety (it's currently /10, now /20). Does that sound awful? 09:42:01 wha? 09:42:04 syraine: what does "it" refer to there? 09:42:11 one of Chei's invocations? and if so, which? 09:42:13 It? 09:42:15 Oh! 09:42:16 fff 09:42:19 >< 09:42:27 I forgot to mention the ability, it's Step From Time 09:42:37 Currently it costs 10 MP and a large amount of Piety 09:42:54 it's one of Cheibriados' last abilities, but one of the most unique 09:42:55 that seems sort of difficult to fit to chei's theme 09:43:30 The God of Contemplation rewards endurance and a strong mind. 09:43:32 =l 09:43:40 The flavor was actually where I got the idea. 09:44:09 what is wrong with the current Step From Time? 09:44:29 it sounds like maybe a cool idea but still not very chei-ish 09:44:30 To make Step From Time a period of 'contemplation, uninterrupted by the hasty ways of the Dungeon'. It's apparently not reliably useful. 09:44:38 it is useful 09:44:55 step from time is a pretty good lifesaver, yeah 09:44:55 Sometimes you can use it and the monsters will still be there 09:45:04 In fact, they'll be there and more monsters will be on the screen 09:45:11 So it's less useful as the level is less cleared 09:45:23 And more useful when there's large spaces with no monsters, IIRC 09:45:30 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 09:46:33 This doesn't seem as flavorful as Cheibriados removing you from reality to 'chill'; after all, it is highly effective when the Dungeon has very few wandering monsters. 09:50:05 -!- Twilight-1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:50:18 I felt that since the majority of Cheibriados' abilities are most effective with more monsters on the field (the non-passive abilities, that is) that it would be a step in the wrong direction to maintain one ability that reverses this trend, instead being less useful in relatively unexplored spots. But it was just something to think about, not a push. 09:52:04 it's an emergency button though, for when situations get out of control 09:52:05 I still have no idea what you changed about the effect of the spell aside from making the power lower 09:52:17 as opposed to something you plan on using in specific circumstances 09:52:53 s/spell/invocation/ 09:52:56 oh 09:53:40 actually re-reading it yeah, i have no idea what this thing actually does 09:53:49 about Chei, do you guys think it's a problem that Oc is able to regain full speed in 2 turns by removing their ponderous hat? 09:53:52 i read it as some kind of boost to spell power 09:54:06 galehar: no, they also lose +15 to all stats while doing so 09:54:12 and resists 09:54:40 ok 09:54:43 I lowered the piety cost and altered the equation to include the intelligence score of the caster, gave it a cooldown and used the tension system to make it more powerful at high tension. Also the base chance of it working is terrible 09:55:20 syraine: an unrand giving you a passive ability would be fine... i'd like to see a super powerful GSC that makes you trample while wielding it 09:55:21 Oh, and I renamed it to Contemplation and set it to ** Piety, like Berserk 09:55:32 Eronarn: that sounds really interesting 09:55:32 why factoring in the intelligence? No other god ability does that, and it doesn't make any sense thematically 09:55:34 =3 09:55:48 fortunately chei gives you other reasons to want high invocations so the base chance of it working isn't relevant 09:55:55 That was the reason why I added it, because I thought it was thematically superior; improving your mind 09:56:05 Yes, that was the reason why I lowered the base chance 09:56:16 sif channeling uses int somewhere doesn't it? 09:56:17 It's already likely that as a Cheibriados worshipper you want high Invocations 09:56:39 marvinpa_: for success rate, yes 09:56:46 sif is clearly about int though 09:56:52 yeah 09:56:53 chei is clearly not 09:57:00 and as a life saving ability, I think it's fine being the last power and costing lots of piety. 09:57:03 Also I wanted to give an added incentive to use Cheibriados' stat boosts. That was what I came up with 09:57:13 This simply happens to be what I *have* =3 09:57:17 =(* 09:57:21 the stat boosts are the incentive to use the stat boosts :P 09:57:22 syraine: um, the stat boosts aren't incentive to use the stat boosts? 09:57:26 snap 09:57:28 * Eronarn hi5s MarvinPA_ 09:57:29 I said added =_= 09:57:30 :) 09:57:34 most people like +15 to all stats already :P 09:57:39 I knowww 09:58:17 making it more powerful at high tension does sound potentially interesting though, aside from tension itself still being strange 09:58:24 did you just increase the duration then? 09:58:24 But isn't that Cheibriados improving your mind and body as a reward for being contemplative? So I thought that adding stat checks into his powers would give some incentive to actually 'having' those stats 09:58:28 or something more complicated 09:58:34 if anything there needs to be less incentive to use the stat boosts (chei should not give stat boosts) 09:58:53 Eronarn: I agree actually, it turns him into a bit of an attribute lottery 09:59:15 But I wanted to do something to buff Chei, and I had no idea what would be good if there was no attribute bonus 09:59:17 'lottery'? 09:59:34 If you pick Chei and get to high piety, you win =3 09:59:53 Bad turn of phrase? =S 10:00:22 that's not actually true 10:00:25 !lm * god.maxpiety=cheibriados s=ckiller 10:00:27 85 milestones for * (god.maxpiety=cheibriados): 7x winning, 6x Rupert, 4x a slime creature, 3x a hydra, 3x a pandemonium lord, 3x a death yak, 2x a yaktaur captain, 2x a Balrug, 2x a catoblepas, 2x a very large slime creature, 2x a skeletal warrior, 2x Mennas, 2x an orc warrior, 2x a smoke demon, 2x Norris, 1x an Executioner, 1x a draconian zealot, 1x a cyan ugly thing, 1x a naga, 1x an acid blob,... 10:00:58 The prize is high attributes 10:01:01 Not actually winning 10:01:06 you're pretty confusing 10:01:11 I know /= 10:01:25 elliptic: I haven't looked at the details of the tension formula, but I have the feeling it could be improved by having some inertia. 10:01:55 galehar: yes 10:02:02 I mean inertia for decreasing. Increasing doesn't need inertia. 10:02:11 for example, tension drops to 0 suddenly if you go around a corner 10:02:23 * Eronarn looked into tension extensively because of lava orcs 10:02:34 yes, that was something i noticed too 10:02:37 let's remove the corner then! 10:02:53 heh 10:03:11 another issue is that tension barely takes into account your HP 10:04:06 well, one of the main things that makes danger hilarious is the fact that stone giant zombies are given higher power ratings than stone giants because of their high HP__ 10:04:08 HP* 10:04:49 I don't think that your level of injury or that of your opponent really dictates how dangerous it is until your health is critical, unless you're dealing with a specifically damage-dealing opponent 10:06:06 that doesn't sound right; they should be basing it on XP 10:06:25 A stone giant gives about double exp- 10:06:28 So, err 10:06:35 But what about a boggart 10:07:07 so; i keep wanting to put .des documentation online - i'd be interested in opinions: https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=2519 10:07:09 -!- Twilight-1 has joined ##crawl-dev 10:07:12 It would be nice to see the danger rating shoot right up if you're about four squares away from a boggart and a giant eyeball 10:07:16 also that's the point, your level of injury DOES determine how dangerous it is, and it's not dangerous at all unless you are at low health 10:07:22 or whatever has low exp 10:07:39 Eronarn: I thought you were going to put a direct scale to HP 10:07:43 no 10:07:46 which is certainly a no-no 10:07:47 log scale 10:07:48 -!- jooosa has joined ##crawl-dev 10:07:49 but if you're referring to - 10:07:51 mm 10:07:52 okay 10:08:12 right now being at 1 HP = only 2x as much tension as being at full HP, iirc 10:09:40 -!- elliptic_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:09:48 but the amount of HP you have by proportion to maximum isn't always a direct indicator of danger 10:10:07 -!- itsmu has joined ##crawl-dev 10:10:12 high EV and low AC characters might take a lot of damage if they're unlucky 10:10:21 -!- Mu_ has quit [Disconnected by services] 10:10:25 -!- itsmu is now known as Mu_ 10:10:38 but irrespective half HP doesn't show they're being attacked by a strong opponent 10:10:50 only that that opponent rolled well 10:11:24 -!- dexap has joined ##crawl-dev 10:11:25 spriggans are an excellent example, if for whatever reason you're being hit by enemies in melee, those enemies might take you for fifteen HP_ 10:11:48 if you haven't trained Fighting, your HP at Level 7 is about 30- 10:11:51 30* 10:12:20 so perhaps a more complex formula that factors EV, AC and SH, mm 10:14:27 -!- Noeda has joined ##crawl-dev 10:15:40 syraine: a high EV and low AC character isn't in much danger, until they get hit, and then they are in a lot of danger 10:15:46 yes 10:15:52 that is exactly my point 10:16:13 -!- blueDave2 has joined ##crawl-dev 10:16:14 -!- Twinge_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:16:30 maybe you should try not making points or something 10:16:41 /= 10:17:11 -!- blueDave has quit [Disconnected by services] 10:17:15 -!- blueDave2 is now known as blueDave 10:17:20 being that the danger level is exactly the same when you're hit once or twice, in terms of the amount of damage that's on the field 10:17:48 you're equally likely to get hit at 30 or 1 HP, but if you get hit for 14 once you feel threatened, even if the likelihood of you being hit again is vanishingly small 10:18:13 -!- elliptic has quit [*.net *.split] 10:18:13 -!- joosa has quit [*.net *.split] 10:18:14 -!- paxed has quit [*.net *.split] 10:18:14 -!- Twinge has quit [*.net *.split] 10:18:14 -!- Xiberia has quit [*.net *.split] 10:18:15 -!- Adeon has quit [*.net *.split] 10:18:20 -!- jooosa is now known as joosa 10:20:34 the difference being that the second hit might kill you :P 10:21:55 -!- Guest97562 is now known as jarpiain 10:23:18 -!- Xiberia has joined ##crawl-dev 10:32:12 -!- Noeda is now known as Adeon 10:38:51 03MarvinPA 07demons * r62b83c95c7c1 10/crawl-ref/ (242 files in 26 dirs): Merge branch 'master' into demons 10:39:02 03MarvinPA 07demons * r2ba57c33cc65 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-cast.cc: Scale down monster summon spam 10:39:26 MarvinPA_: make demons that have summons have demonic guardian 10:43:56 for the conversation about Chei ponderousness going to 0 in two turns by taking off a hat: what about the idea to completely nix the idea of a helmet slowing your legwork down, and instead having an invocation "Slow down" that works without ties to equipment? 10:45:01 i still definitely like that idea, yeah 10:45:08 I really don't like that 10:45:11 it should be passive 10:45:11 of course, Cheibriados doesn't act in a haste himself, and your speed changes only after some turns, by a single notch 10:45:40 well, i think either tying it to piety or making it an invocation could work 10:46:08 definitely it would be good to scrap basing it on armour, though 10:46:35 kilobyte: it shouldn't be possible to be fast with chei at high piety ever 10:46:37 elliptic_: so you propose not giving people a way to control their speed at all, right? 10:46:40 where fast = delay 10 10:46:42 yes 10:47:36 having it go directly with piety is good, no other god really does anything like that 10:47:38 I don't see the need for a way to become faster on demand 10:48:18 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:49:22 actually, there would be one: quickly dumping your piety 10:49:39 right, it should cost you something with chei :) 10:50:30 hmm... I think I like your idea 10:52:18 formula for delay would be something like +2(n+1) for n stars of piety 10:52:24 or could make it continuous 10:53:43 continuous might make more sense, I guess... +2 + div_rand_round(piety, 20), capping at ****** piety (160) 10:56:15 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 11:01:54 but don't you need to be slow to gain piety? 11:04:08 galehar: +2 is enough, even div_rand_round(piety, 20) would be -- you start at piety 15 11:04:40 Zaba: what would be the best way to make Ignacio spawn more after you have first met him? 11:05:08 we'd also want to tweak the piety gain formula a bit so that piety gain doesn't accelerate as you gain more piety, since that isn't really desired 11:05:42 -!- elliptic_ is now known as elliptic 11:05:43 kilobyte, you mean, if you met him but didn't kill? Not really possible without a special-case, I think. 11:05:44 ok 11:05:45 Zaba: I'm currently thinking about a vault with a fat static CHANCE and a boolean lua flag that stores whether he's been placed once 11:05:47 have to go though 11:06:07 -!- galehar has quit [] 11:06:20 kilobyte, well, something like that could work 11:06:21 Zaba: just MONS: ignacio would handle that, it's no-op if he's ineligible 11:07:10 just have to make sure it doesn't affect other chance vaults in a negative way 11:07:19 (if there are any, now or in the future) 11:07:53 would "TAG: extra transparent" be enough? 11:09:02 kilobyte, if you have allow_dup, then don't forget luniq 11:10:45 right 11:12:52 and no, just 'extra transparent' probably wouldn't be enough if you want him to ever reappear ;p 11:13:48 kilobyte, it would indeed be nice to generalize pan level generation somehow to allow for such things to be implemented easier, though 11:14:55 at the moment _pan_level either just builds a unique lord vault (as primary), or a layout + 'pan' minivault 11:15:44 but adding more special cases to that function would be a little bit unpretty 11:17:37 Zaba: uniques who are left in Pan levels that are being deleted are marked as available 11:18:00 ah, okay 11:18:42 well then you shouldn't need any other tags 11:20:41 beh, this vault doesn't use place_unique, just normal placement. With extra, it's not placed last; I wouldn't want to block other, possibly big, vaults. 11:20:56 can "transparent" prevent such blocks? 11:21:21 'transparent' only affects connectivity checks 11:21:56 but I wouldn't worry about that 11:22:31 the vault builder tries to pick a place for a vault sufficiently many times to prevent a single blocked cell from making it fail 11:23:09 ...or do you mean non-geographical blocking? 11:23:13 * Zaba is slow 11:23:42 both. I guess "extra" prevents the latter. 11:24:05 kilobyte, yes 11:32:35 -!- Twilight-1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:34:18 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 11:38:09 03MarvinPA 07demons * r90b617ee79d4 10/crawl-ref/source/ (5 files in 4 dirs): Make reapers and lorocyprocas a bit more deserving of 2 status 11:39:45 did you give loros airstrike 11:40:40 will antaeus ever get airstrike? he's supposed to be a titan, but ever since titans got airstrike he's been more like a weird frost giant 11:40:54 on the other hand coc:7 is nasty enough already 11:41:17 it'd help discourage antaeus-kiting a bit maybe... 11:41:48 but yeah, you mostly have to be flying there so it'd probably hurt a lot 11:42:08 he can also be surrounded by about 6 ice fiends in one of the endings 11:42:18 Eronarn: gave them an antimagic attack, although i'm open to other ideas for them 11:43:34 MarvinPA_: (fixed) brain feed would be cool because it doesn't use a projectile so they can use it while invis 11:43:48 oh did i say 6? i meant 8 11:44:00 hm, that'd fit with the antimagic theme too i guess 11:44:26 of course this relies on fixing brain feed 11:44:29 right 11:44:43 with that idea for temporarily locking out spells or whatever? 11:44:48 yes 11:45:06 Zaba: heh... not sure if layout_cross is supposed to happen in Pan, at least it looks kind of odd 11:45:08 but also int damage still (more than right ow because it's pitiful currently) 11:45:24 kilobyte, historically, it did 11:45:31 evilmike: remember that titans are more of a species rather than profession 11:45:48 just got it 11:45:55 I mean, it isn't a recent change 11:49:42 one idea might be: 1d2 int damage, lock out a random spell, spelllevel % 3 extra int damage 11:51:16 is there a point in level annotations listing uniques who are in the Abyss? Note that you can't annotate it manually. 11:51:43 (there's a bug: uniques in Pan and portal vaults currently leave annotations, just fixing it) 11:52:32 listing uniques who are in the abyss sounds nice to me if it isn't too hard to code 11:52:43 Annotations also persist if the unique gets killed out of los 11:54:03 RichardHawk: already fixed 11:54:18 elliptic: ok, I'll exclude the Abyss 11:54:38 er, exclude from exclusion, that is :p 11:55:20 kilobyte: I mean, you'd also want the abyss annotation to be created when the unique is banished, not when you find it there 12:00:09 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 12:01:45 -!- Twilight-1 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:01:59 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 259 seconds] 12:04:04 drowning a clinging monster by digging does not give XP (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4519) by reid 12:04:04 confused movement can break the rules of clinging (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4518) by reid 12:06:25 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:14:19 -!- Twilight-1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:17:30 playing tiles locally, I have a screen anomaly right now 12:17:48 friendly orcs replaced with tiles of objects, overlaid with the heart symbol 12:17:56 what debug info should be captured? 12:18:03 -!- Twilight-1 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:20:50 windows, ran it from cmdline in mingw -- is there a cmd that will grab a coredump without killing my progress? 12:21:56 -!- greatzebu has joined ##crawl-dev 12:22:06 or does just saving the game capture everything that is needed? 12:23:13 probably still no dumps in win builds 12:26:32 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 12:28:56 -!- Twilight13 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:29:12 dgn.terrain_changed doesn't check for clinging monsters (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4520) by reid 12:30:51 -!- Twilight-1 has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:33:34 save should help a lot already, blueDave 12:33:34 Napkin: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 12:36:44 greatzebu? 12:36:51 hi there 12:36:58 hey, how's it going? :) 12:37:04 not bad, yourself? 12:37:19 home from work - all good now ;) 12:37:26 excellent 12:37:35 could you have a look at webtiles? 12:37:57 what would I be looking for? 12:38:08 there is a game for GreatZebu (according to playerlist, which may be lying) with an idle time of >43k seconds 12:38:40 i guess you started a game that long ago? 12:38:48 do you still remember how you ended that game? 12:38:48 hmm, yes. when I log in and try to start, it just tells me another game is in progress using that save 12:39:32 did you.. save the game? or maybe just closed the tab? 12:39:39 or maybe got a time-out or disconnected? 12:39:41 hmm, I'm not sure. I think I started a game up last night but I had a shaky wireless connection that gave out on me 12:39:55 so I probably timed out 12:39:57 so.. you probably got disconnected, right? 12:39:59 yes 12:40:04 ok 12:40:14 -!- ais523 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:40:27 thank you :) 12:40:43 GreatZebu (L1 MDFi) (D:1) 12:41:19 thanks for cleaning things up :) 12:41:34 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:42:01 !tell edlothiol there is a problem with people getting disconnected (because of network problems) and the game doesn't time out then.. just killed 2 games with idle time of >20k seconds 12:42:02 Napkin: OK, I'll let edlothiol know. 12:42:05 !messages 12:42:06 (1/1) Wensley said (14h 3m 32s ago): Hi! Since I have no experience with how dgl or chroots work, I wanted to ask about cdo's directory structure for dgl and crawl, like which directories need to be in a jail, if any directories need to be placed relative to any others, etc. 12:42:37 !tell Wensley catch me when you can :) 12:42:38 Napkin: OK, I'll let Wensley know. 12:46:37 !tell edlothiol seems like, the connection times out, but then there are "exception trying to send message to ip" afterwards flooding the log 12:46:37 Napkin: OK, I'll let edlothiol know. 12:47:11 !tell edlothiol apart from that - the flickering is gone and the arrows show up, too! great :) 12:47:11 Napkin: OK, I'll let edlothiol know. 13:02:14 -!- ais523 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:03:24 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 13:19:28 Friendly orcs displayed as misc item tiles (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4521) by blueDave 13:26:28 -!- evilmike has quit [Quit: something happened] 13:50:13 hey blueDave? 13:52:27 blueDave: I think you should mention how your friendlies suddenly turned up like that. you loaded the game? you upgraded crawl? you copied the game from somewhere else? something must have triggered it 13:55:35 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 13:55:59 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:56:20 starting skills are currently slightly random 13:56:24 this seems like a bad thing 13:58:21 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 14:03:37 n 14:04:12 Necrophages... 14:04:13 -!- syraine has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 6.0.1/20110830092941]] 14:04:20 n n 14:06:41 elliptic: yeah, there are folks who are going to startscum that... 14:06:59 yes :/ 14:07:34 since they are based on arbitrarily assigned input (base skill values), being biased doesn't hurt the slightest 14:13:29 -!- st_ has quit [] 14:18:53 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:30:16 03kilobyte * rb99c7cb23a0a 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-info.cc: Fix a compiler warning. 14:30:26 03kilobyte * r44a406ded7b7 10/crawl-ref/source/religion.cc: Fix Zin being mistakenly marked as accepting gold sacrifices. 14:30:27 03GreatZebu * r103b89fc1c49 10/crawl-ref/source/religion.cc: Fixed Zin sacrifice text and corrected associated comment. 14:30:27 03kilobyte * rdf6deba2f071 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/builder/uniques.des: Give Ignacio a (somewhat below) 50% chance of spawning per level once awakened. 14:30:27 03kilobyte * r4481293100e2 10/crawl-ref/source/ (travel.cc travel.h): An iterator for going through all level_id values. 14:30:38 03kilobyte * r7d749da6cfc0 10/crawl-ref/source/dgn-overview.cc: Don't store unique annotations in Pan or portal vaults. 14:30:38 03kilobyte * r1b3bba208f48 10/crawl-ref/source/ (dgn-overview.cc dgn-overview.h mon-stuff.cc): Remember uniques and ghosts known to be in the Abyss. 14:32:51 Ignacio should be probably weakened a good deal, though 14:33:18 he can do mad damage 14:38:33 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 14:46:33 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 14:48:05 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:49:10 -!- blueDave has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:51:30 hrm, I just realized Ignacio will seriously screw up elliptic's XL12 trips around Pan. That's bad, those should be encouraged not stopped. 14:53:16 -!- blueDave has joined ##crawl-dev 14:53:19 I did some XL1 trips around Pan (back when it was accessible from the Abyss, which IMO is enough of a reason to put Pan portals in the Abyss) 14:53:20 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 14:53:34 oh, hi dpeg 14:53:36 it was surprisingly boring, just running through endless Pan portals until you get randomly oneshotted 14:53:43 kilobyte: Hi! 14:53:43 but I suppose I wasn't supposed to be there 14:53:48 hi dpeg 14:54:02 kilobyte: thanks for reply, I suspected you got it right, but I just had to ask. 14:54:30 * dpeg is a compulsive questioner. 14:54:41 dpeg: I have doubts about Ignacio. I just made him spawn on 50% Pan levels once he's generated the first time. 14:55:24 but that screws up those who dare Pan on non Zig worthy characters 14:55:30 Yes, I share them. I have absolutely no clue what Ignacio is supposed to do/threaten. This does not mean he's bad, just completely outside my competence. 14:56:07 in other words: I should ask elliptic and the likes instead? 14:56:12 yes! 14:56:21 !seen MarvinPA_ 14:56:21 I last saw MarvinPA_ at Thu Sep 8 19:38:28 2011 UTC (17m 53s ago) saying haha on ##crawl. 14:56:45 50% sounds a bit much, yes... try 25% or 20% IMO 14:57:07 never been in Pan on a character below XL27 myself... 14:57:07 I have yet to face ignacio though and don't actually do pan that frequently 14:57:27 !lm elliptic br.enter=pan min=xl 14:57:31 147. [2010-11-13] hyperbolic the Blackguard (L10 SpEn) entered the realm of Cerebov on turn 2944. (Pan) 14:57:58 !lm * br.enter=pan s=xl 14:57:59 4149 milestones for * (br.enter=pan): 3723x 27, 141x 26, 62x 25, 32x 24, 28x 23, 27x 22, 24x 21, 21x 17, 20x 18, 17x 20, 15x 19, 11x 16, 6x 9, 6x 13, 5x 15, 4x 11, 3x 12, 3x 14, 1x 10 14:58:26 I asked MarvinPA_ and elliptic about Artificer... the background seems fine but elliptic suggests removing the staff (including the starting skill) and to remove the wand choice, always giving flame+confusion+enslavement. What do you think? 14:58:46 aha, i just this minute replied to the email :) 14:58:50 Players bickering about best wand is cool, though :) (But I support the idea, of course.) 14:58:52 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 14:58:54 I think a damage nerf could be good, too... that axe of pain packs a punch when it connects 14:58:57 MarvinPA_: you're too slow :P 14:59:00 heh 14:59:40 No more rod of striking? 14:59:44 yes 15:00:14 if it wasn't a starting option then it could be made more powerful/interesting perhaps, like scaling with evoc skill or something 15:00:28 or could just be removed :P 15:00:28 sorry, elliptic proposed flame+enslavement+random effects 15:00:50 they need a weapon, though 15:01:10 kilobyte: but they can pick up one... however, elliptic had something to say on this too: +0 dagger :) 15:01:23 -!- petete has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:01:43 kilobyte: three wands is quite a boost, will make them last longer 15:01:55 confusion instead of enslavement is possible too, I wasn't sure 15:02:10 elliptic: enslavement is cooler, I think. Gives the background more sex appeal. 15:02:13 yeah... there's like ten backgrounds who can get daggers, though 15:02:57 with no staff monks, you're stuck with Zin 15:02:57 cannot think of a unique weapon for Ar... but staff seems too strong and does not fit the flavour either 15:03:05 dpeg: ;p 15:03:06 Zin is good! 15:03:31 Did threat-level display get removed again? 15:03:33 i never understood the desperation for staves to be starting weapons :P 15:03:40 or more common starting weapons, rather 15:03:53 kilobyte: staff is a better starting weapon than the hybrid classes get to choose from 15:04:02 kilobyte: I think that Ar could get their weapon on D:1 just fine. They can kill early humanoids with ease now. 15:04:20 Ar was fine with no starting weapon for a few versions 15:05:03 dpeg: there are no likely upgrades unless you're very lucky, the staff is weakest at early Lair and so on (you'll usually get something by then) 15:05:20 btw, I made a constriction web page... no numbers yet, but quite a bit of detail; feedback welcome etc. 15:05:53 ok well... it can lead to some start-scumming though 15:06:03 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:effect:constriction 15:06:07 kilobyte: how? 15:06:21 looking for lajatang on D:1? 15:07:21 are monster queries disabled? 15:07:44 dpeg: your starting weapon type, otherwise you waste skills in a weapon you'll never use again. Not that big a concern unless you're minmaxing, but this is precisely what people like startscumming for. 15:08:33 kilobyte: but it shouldn't be random!? We don't have random starting stuff anymore. 15:08:43 @??cang 15:08:44 cang (04Ω) | Speed: c | HD: I | Health: 666 | AC/EV: e/π | Damage: 999 | Res: sanity | XP: ∞ 15:08:57 kilobyte: people will do that with a starting staff also, though... unless you really think that we want all artificers to use staves 15:09:24 @??naga 15:09:24 naga (03N) | Speed: 8 (act: 80%) | HD: 5 | Health: 16-39 | AC/EV: 6/10 | Damage: 17 | Flags: see invisible, !sil | Res: 06magic(40), 03poison | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 108 | Sp: poison splash (d10). 15:10:17 dpeg: that's why at least all starting weapons should be available 15:10:41 there is always Wn :) 15:11:04 heh 15:11:05 then I'd rather give staff as an option to Gl if it were possible 15:11:32 monks? :p 15:11:44 how about we nerf quarterstaff a bit and give it to most casters to start 15:12:18 if you really insist that having Zin start with it isn't enough 15:12:23 (why isn't it enough?) 15:13:04 spears are better if you care about melee only 15:13:14 they are less accurate 15:13:16 one reason: Zin 15:13:29 you can abandon zin and choose most gods without penalty :P 15:13:43 kilobyte: new Zin is better than old Zin 15:14:06 Can you name some monsters of the naga family, please? 15:14:42 Naga, Naga Warrior, Naga Mage, Greater Naga? 15:14:43 got stuck at naga, naga wizard =) 15:14:46 thanks 15:15:08 grep -i naga mon-data.h 15:15:11 :P 15:15:17 Aizul 15:15:21 galehar: hi :) 15:15:33 oh yeah 15:15:35 hi! 15:15:35 coders, tsktsk, I bet they take their grep to the bed 15:15:46 aizul's a serpent 15:16:00 doh 15:16:12 oh, I may have forgotten them: should serpents constrict? 15:16:15 here's a proposal for staves, actually: buff quarterstaff and lajatang to be more reasonable melee options long-term, introduce a new staff (just called "staff") that is about as good as a dagger and is 1-handed, use the new staff as the model for melee properties of magical staves 15:16:44 and let Fi/Gl start with the buffed qstaff as an option 15:16:50 elliptic: sounds good. Keeps the longterm situation and remedies the starting situation. 15:16:59 and give casters a plain staff 15:17:11 casters need no staff 15:17:12 I like that! 15:17:25 dpeg: yes, for theme! 15:17:28 please quick opinions on serpents 15:17:43 galehar: D&DNHTolkiencannothavethat 15:17:56 our casters should start with a sausage 15:18:02 pizza 15:18:07 come on, casters using goes beyond d&d and tolkien 15:18:20 * dpeg wants to see elliptic perform the magical rites with a pizza 15:18:30 galehar: yes, I don't really mind 15:19:02 Is the monster deep dwarf injury mirror supposed to last for a very long time? 15:19:15 ok, no constriction for serpents because of Aizul 15:19:57 except boa, right? 15:20:15 about Ignacio: I pondered a straight nerf, but now I wonder: what if he is guaranteed not to spawn within first X levels of Pan, and has slowly increasing likelihood later? 15:20:22 there's also the double handedness doing what it's supposed to that could also help staves longterm 15:20:25 to spank farmers 15:20:56 st_: right, this can work even without touching the stats 15:21:17 but what is it supposed to do? The code comments aren't very clear 15:21:20 would be the buff elliptic is talking about 15:22:10 galehar: boa and anaconda are constricting snakes in the proposal 15:22:29 galehar: the 4.1 plan was to have it do twice as many weaker blows. That's kind of redundant with the speed brand, but could be improved 15:22:31 right, I was vague about the buff but part of the idea was to make quarterstaff/lajatang more appealing as melee options in the longterm 15:23:01 kilobyte: sounds very good to me (re Ignacio) -- he could get some theme that fits with his behaviour as well 15:23:05 like, an aux attack rather than a speed mod 15:23:19 simple option: tweak stats. complicated option: figure out what double-handed means :) 15:23:24 Does everyone agree to let elliptic go wild on the staves idea? 15:23:25 dpeg: err, what's the difference between serpents and snakes? (serpent is french for snake) 15:23:52 galehar: serpent is mythological 15:24:01 galehar: hehe. They are different monsters. Snakes (mamba, anaconda etc.) vs Guardian Serpents and Serpent of Hell. 15:24:34 alright, so I'm thinking no to constricting serpents then 15:25:14 "serpent" is an old-fashioned word 15:25:26 so it's more suited for mythological beasts, etc 15:25:35 it does have the same meaning as "snake", though 15:25:39 more like brimstone vs sulphur, yeah 15:26:11 well, as I said, it's just the french word for snake 15:26:16 not all snakes are constricting, so we're free to choose for serpents... and since our serpents are interesting opponents (I think), we can leave them for now 15:26:23 not surprising, English changed which word it used, French didn't 15:26:48 so if we go the double handedness way (more attacks), then we'll have staves better against high EV and worse against high AC 15:26:51 do we want that? 15:27:36 anything that makes them good against a particular largish set of opponents sounds like a good idea 15:27:46 because it'd encourage weapon swapping, not that anyone ever does that anyway 15:30:09 but making a currently bad strategy more viable has to be a good thing 15:30:18 some of you edited constriction just now, right? 15:30:39 I am afraid I wiped your edit... didn't wnat that :( Even saved my changes to paste them later. 15:31:00 I apologise. 15:31:30 wasn't me. Haven't finished reading it :) 15:32:58 kilobyte: re Ignacio, if you do it like that, he should be stronger every time you meet him, I guess. And perhaps not give xp all the time? :) 15:33:00 -!- ncampion has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:33:09 isn't the purpose of Pan for farming? 15:33:18 perhaps was the purpose 15:33:54 dpeg: you can kill him just once 15:33:59 ah, good 15:34:13 kilobyte: that makes making him stronger even better, imo 15:34:21 he is the Pan police 15:34:56 so he only spawns if you cast swiftness? (and break speed limit) 15:35:09 :p 15:35:10 or if you use the wrong parking lot 15:35:15 for example Mnoleg's 15:35:38 can you bribe him? 15:36:13 galehar: gold god! 15:36:18 you can use your gold to make him friendly instead of wasting it on zigs, yes 15:36:31 I like settling matters: can we agree to remove double-handed (the idea seems dubious, rots in the code for ages and we'll get the very same idea with any brainstorm on the matter) and let elliptic go ahead with the staff reform? 15:36:55 well, it sounds like there were some ideas for implementing double-handed 15:37:13 there are always some idea... but you're up to actually doing something, which is better 15:37:32 and we've been talking about double-handed back in DCSS0.2 15:37:46 we could always bring it back with weapon effects, I suppose :) 15:37:53 yes 15:38:28 but this way, we could give kilobyte the starting staff, remove the overpoweredness of current staff as starting weapon and keep lajatang as good weapon for later 15:38:49 we might even give staves to casters as starting weapons 15:39:18 well, the first proposal was great, and tweaking stats is easy. We can always revert the stat boost later and replace it with double handedness if we ever figure it out 15:39:28 kilobyte? 15:41:22 early game, casters use their weapon on rats and goblins to save MP. They don't really care for a powerful one. But with a weak staff, the XP invested in the weapon skill won't be wasted when they move on to magical staves. 15:43:35 yeah 15:44:00 -!- ncampion has joined ##crawl-dev 15:44:06 for weapon effects, reaching? 15:44:10 I'd also like to nerf enhancer staff melee somewhat, since it is fairly ridiculous as is... it should be a reasonable option for casters, not an option that dominates other options if you can bother to leave evoc on for a couple of levels 15:44:52 elliptic: yeah, good idea 15:44:57 reaching on all polearms is a trivial change, just with balance concerns 15:45:16 should we try that? 15:45:19 kilobyte: I always supported that. 15:45:52 yes, let's do it 15:45:53 I think we should try to make it work, I do think a few AI changes will be needed though 15:45:57 The two concerns I have are: interface (we already have this problem now, only later in the game) and that there is no proper branch for polearms anymore. 15:46:03 I'll improve the AI to limit water abuses 15:46:13 dpeg: branch for polearms? 15:46:23 sorry, brand 15:46:28 ah 15:46:33 dragon slaying! 15:46:39 currently, is their standout brand, they'd have none after that 15:46:47 standout, elliptic, standout :P 15:46:52 they could have evasion brand 15:47:01 giving them evasion brand is a good idea 15:47:02 not cool enough 15:47:07 yes, but ^ 15:47:12 I already have some code for retreating AI, that needs to be polished. Giving reaching to all polearms (and Oc?) would motivate me to finish this 15:47:16 scythes of reaping 15:47:22 elliptic: Flabour for that? 15:47:24 kilobyte: <3 15:47:43 do they really need a cool brand? it isn't like other weapon types have cool brands of their own... 15:47:51 elliptic: pity that, imo 15:47:55 dpeg: they exist, but never spawn outside of Sigmund and reapers 15:48:13 reapers should always get it... 15:48:29 our brands are quite lackluter, except for distortion, chaos, perhaps draining 15:48:30 ghallberg: not sure (polearms keep monsters a bit further away from you so they can't hit you as easily?), but it has to be better than bows of evasion 15:49:05 dpeg: distortion doesn't make up for its downsides 15:49:30 yeah, bow of evasion are thematic nonsense 15:50:50 some people like distortion :P 15:51:33 kilobyte: since this is debatable, I consider distortion a great brand (from design pov) 15:52:29 dpeg: design yes, gameplay power no. Hunting monsters around the whole level is a pain in the rear 15:52:35 another one: I've been inventing some new trap types (flame,cold,magic). Any objections to making them implementable? I don't want mechanical trap removal for 0.10, but trying out new traps would be good, imo. 15:53:06 dpeg: does sitting give free charisma? 15:53:36 anyway I'd suggest just implementing reaching for polearms in trunk soon (nerfing the 1h polearms slightly at the same time) and seeing what problems develop 15:53:37 summoning traps sound promising to me 15:54:13 elliptic: better to do that soon so there's time to test and maybe revert 15:54:13 kilobyte: I don't understand? (sitting) 15:54:23 dpeg: NetHack 15:54:28 kilobyte: yes 15:54:52 dpeg: #sit to farm for stat increases 15:54:59 kilobyte: I am not an Nethack expert, just an expert Nethack hater (unbeliever, rather) 15:55:21 mefolk vorticist, with water-tornado. 15:55:26 milk not farm actually, it's limited 15:56:22 Eronarn: try a cow-tornado (one that went over a pasture) 15:58:34 -!- ainsophy_ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:01:55 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:02:09 dpeg: Triggering a magic trap in NetHack has a chance to raise charisma. 16:03:03 Some players trip them repeatedly by #sitting to do this. I've never done it, because I frankly don't think it's worth it, even ignoring tedium. 16:04:14 dtsund: sigh, what awful design. Players tempting to do this... :( 16:08:28 It's not unlimited, anyway. 16:08:31 Leaving soon, so summary: elliptic takes care of the staves (including as Fi/Gl choice); reaching for all polearms; Artificers get three wands; implementables for some new trap types. 16:08:44 dtsund: it is a permanent effect. 16:08:54 Another possible effect is that the trap vanishes, the player is blinded, and monsters are summoned, which is why I avoid the things. 16:15:48 -!- syllogism has quit [] 16:19:21 forgot Ignacio reform 16:28:50 dpeg: alchemists, you forgot alchemists ;) 16:30:10 03galehar * r37dca19c0ec8 10/crawl-ref/settings/messages.txt: Make attack messages from invisible monsters in red. 16:30:12 03galehar * r0167331fd1c7 10/crawl-ref/source/ (makeitem.cc makeitem.h mon-gear.cc): Don't generate high tier wands before D:3. 16:30:13 03galehar * r721085fa91c0 10/crawl-ref/source/makeitem.cc: Don't generate potions of berserk rage before D:3. 16:30:15 03galehar * r7753be77ee3b 10/crawl-ref/source/abyss.cc: Don't morph the abyssal rune nor the exit. 16:30:49 cool 16:30:54 good hnceges 16:31:07 oops, changews 16:31:45 -!- ainsophy_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:44:10 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: zzz] 16:45:35 New trap types (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4522) by dpeg 16:54:12 -!- purge has joined ##crawl-dev 17:05:12 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 17:16:41 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 17:22:55 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 17:32:15 -!- galehar has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:46:39 -!- hoody_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:08:17 Napkin: Are you around? 18:15:16 i glanced through the chatlog and noticed some talk about ignacio, i can offer some feedback if anyone is still around 18:15:42 the first is that having him respawn like that is very good, it makes him a credible threat.. before it was just teleport away and never see him again, unless you were really unlucky 18:16:08 as for the actual danger level of ignacio, torment + huge melee damage + executioner speed is terrifying, and makes him more dangerous than most random pan lords 18:16:35 he should probably lose one of those, and Ithink the most appropriate would be torment, since he's an executioner, and torment is really something fiends are known for 18:17:24 if that weakens him too much, perhaps a buff to melee damage could help - just the idea of a buff executioner that hounds you through pandemonium is pretty cool 18:17:58 -!- Galefury has joined ##crawl-dev 18:18:50 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:21:40 evilmike: he lost torment and gained another melee attack already, i think 18:21:55 ah, ok. gretell is out of date 18:26:12 -!- greatzebu has quit [Quit: greatzebu] 18:31:30 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 18:49:30 someone remind me to kick monster then, later, when I have my laptop. 18:51:19 hm, creating a weapon type just named "staff" seems problematic with descriptions 18:52:07 elliptic: halfstaff? short staff? 18:52:56 well, it is supposed to be the same sort of staff as the magical staves... just without the magic :) 18:53:27 i played 4.1 and found a "staff", I think 18:53:36 it had a delay rating for each end. it was so weird 18:54:04 I'm not sure "walking staff" is great though given it won't actually be helping your walking if you wield it... but that's more what I have in mind 18:55:12 eight-staff? 18:55:21 ooh let's doo musical! 18:55:29 crotchet staff! ;) 18:55:47 Is this supposed to be shorter than a quarterstaff? 18:56:43 possibly... it is mainly supposed to be less martial and more generic than a quarterstaff 18:57:15 quarterstaff could be renamed instead, of course, if people think that is suitably generic 18:58:07 elliptic: quarterstaff -> longstaff 18:58:11 I just want two different staves, one of which is more intended for fighting with :) 18:59:24 megastaff 18:59:38 when in doubt, megafoo 18:59:40 quarterstaff isn't generic though 18:59:46 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 18:59:52 and the quarter isn't anything to do with its length 19:00:19 due: yeah, that's what I thought 19:00:57 what about a crook? 19:04:21 not sure 19:08:11 how about "wood staff"? 19:08:39 'quarterstaff' -> 'iron-shod staff' ? 19:08:44 not that the others aren't made out of wood also, of course... 19:10:35 I'm not convinced that iron-shod staff is a real thing :P 19:10:41 use the chinese name for a quarterstaff, "Gun" 19:10:44 confuse players 19:12:48 -!- Pingas has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:12:54 -!- Galefury has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:13:00 elliptic: there were ones with iron bands or studs... not completely metal covered though! 19:15:18 eronarn: well, googling for any variant of iron-shod staff seems to mainly spam me with stuff like WoW... I'm willing to believe they were actually used somewhere at some time, though 19:16:52 The term is generally accepted to refer to a shaft of hardwood from 6 to 9 feet (1.8 to 2.7 m) long, sometimes with a metal tip, ferrule, or spike at one or both ends. 19:17:07 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:17:15 they definitely didn't call them iron-shod staffs 19:17:37 and adding metal wouldn't have made them much better anyways, getting hit by a chunk of wood is already potentially lethal 19:17:49 yeah 19:19:35 what are we trying to describe? 19:20:13 a long wooden stick with iron bands around it 19:20:57 wensley: I want to split quarterstaff into two weapons 19:21:15 halfstaff and eightstaff? 19:21:47 is the goal here to add more variety to the staves skill? 19:22:28 just call teh quarter staff a short staff then 19:22:40 well, I want to buff quarterstaff and lajatang while keeping a weak staff that isn't really intended for melee to be the template for the magical staves 19:22:51 what's wrong with just "staff"? 19:23:23 due: "staff" and "quarterstaff" was the original plan and it is still fine I think if I (or someone else) can figure out how to handle the description database 19:23:28 could use http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiaha 19:23:48 since "staff" is also used for unidentified magical staves 19:24:30 elliptic: if you really want to reinforce the notion of "this weapon is as good in melee as a magical staff, but without the magic" you could create a new staff with no magical properties, with flavour being "this staff was drained of its magic by trog" or something 19:25:11 although that specific description would probably more fit an unrand, but you get the ida 19:25:17 idea 19:25:18 elliptic: Hm, just rename unidnetified magical staffs as "magical stave". 19:25:23 this keyboard does not register keystrokes 19:25:26 elliptic: "magical staff", "staff", "quarterstaff". 19:25:54 -!- ixtli has joined ##crawl-dev 19:26:23 due: hm, can I do that while keeping the current descriptions like "long jewelled staff" for magical staves? 19:27:08 elliptic: sure. 19:27:35 elliptic: You might just need to add some magic to overwrite the description with a specified key rather than using the title -- but we need to dot hat for pan lords like "Ring". 19:29:28 or Trog :D 19:29:42 Exactly 19:34:35 due: thanks for the suggestion to rename the appropriate string to "magical staff"... it looks like I might not even need to add any extra magic :) 19:53:33 awesome :) 19:57:38 -!- Wensley has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:59:51 -!- dtsund is now known as dtsund-afk 20:10:14 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:11:01 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 20:20:44 so, I was going to adjust the damage formula for enhancer staff melee 20:20:56 one of the goals is to nerf it 20:21:16 another goal is to make the progression as you increase evoc skill a little smoother 20:21:42 since it has a "min delay"-type effect currently: you want 14 evoc, and then returns diminish greatly 20:24:44 I don't really want to make melee with them even more dependent on having high evoc, though 20:29:28 Eronarn: I love the Trog the Pan-Lord incident 20:40:33 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 20:41:11 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 20:52:43 someone found this in a shop: h - the +15 pearl dragon armour "Xalous" {rF+ rC+ Dex+2} 26674 gold 20:53:11 should shop prices really be this high? that's like twice as much gold as you'll find in a game 20:53:21 it's +15 pearl dragon armour! 20:53:25 with a bunch of useful abilities! 20:53:33 yeah, it's ridiculously good 20:53:40 but it's also so expensive that you can only get it by scumming 20:55:27 on my last two all-rune games i found 14261 and 12966 gold total, respectively. 20:56:20 ??treasure trove[4] 20:56:21 treasure trove[4/4]: a - [D:9] the +12,+10 sword of Jihad {holy, *Rage rN+ MR EV+3 Stlth--} (30630 gold) Trove: D:27 (give sword of Jihad) 20:56:25 haha 20:56:33 is that from before or after the shop price changes? 20:56:42 after, iirc 20:57:09 I'm not sure whether artefact prices actually changed? 20:57:13 i think i've seen it for 25k-ish before the price changes, though 20:57:38 ??sword of jihad[2] 20:57:39 sword of jihad[2/2]: Seen in a shop for 32544 gold. 20:57:41 i dunno, i just think prices like that are pointlessly high 20:57:44 that was definitely before the changes 20:57:46 i guess that's why maurice farming was invented 20:58:13 nobody told me about maurice farming in the game where I got that jihad trove :/ 20:58:29 strangely enough, I was reading Crawl's code looking for an infinite gold exploit 20:58:38 and concluded that if it was possible, it probably involved Maurice 20:58:40 I couldn't see how, though 20:59:00 you'll only need to acquire gold 25 times to afford it! 20:59:02 it's practically free 20:59:25 this isn't NetHack, you can't convert an entire wand of wishing into markers and write scrolls of aquirement with them 20:59:28 is it still possible to farm gold with angel splitting? 20:59:38 well, you can't write ?oAcq in NetHack because it doesn't exist 21:00:12 monqy: you don't even have to use angels now, I think 21:00:22 ooh? 21:00:52 by angel splitting I meant the chaos effect that clones holy beings. 21:01:04 yes, I think now it clones all non-uniques or something like that 21:01:14 huh 21:01:23 anyway, i just think shop prices should use some kind of stepdown function. everything else does 21:01:43 evilmike: probably, yes 21:01:55 haha 21:01:58 yay for stepdowns 21:02:06 cap prices for ridiculously uber items at ~12k 21:02:20 and yeah, i wonder if the chaos cloning effect should even exist really 21:02:32 it seemed to introduce a bunch of problems in sprint, too 21:03:21 speaking of ridiculous exploits, is there any worry about rupert farming? I imagine exposing perma-allies to chaos effects might work, a pity it won't be an army of ruperts though 21:04:59 I know tame beasts rupert farming doesn't work any more, but I imagine jellies -> poly -> crusade card rupert farming should still work (fsvo work) 21:05:36 crusade doesn't give perm allies anymore 21:05:39 aww 21:05:47 oh and has there been any work on fixing mutaclouds? I've heard a story of getting a friendly perma-executioner from one 21:06:03 tendency to lower hd? 21:06:10 they probably shouldn't be a thing 21:06:10 mirroring the bad muts bias 21:06:11 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:06:23 kilobyte mentioned on mantis that mutagenic fog vaults shouldnt be allowed 21:06:28 ahh 21:06:30 yeah 21:06:32 cant say i disagree, if any dev wants to go ahead and remove that abyss vault 21:06:48 the dungeon mutafog chamber is probably the worst offender 21:06:51 or just change the cloud type to chaos 21:07:02 chaos clouds are pretty funny 21:07:14 so it will just be portal vaults and from evap? unless evap doesn't make it either 21:07:20 although i suppose if you get that mutatey wizlab you can mutate the abominations you get in there and bring them out with you... 21:07:28 evap isn't as abusable because it's not a permanent source 21:08:08 you could also get rid of xom's permaally demons if they're part of the problem 21:08:16 at least I remember xom giving out permanent 3s and the like 21:08:20 -!- cx1213_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:08:21 does xom do perm allies? 21:08:27 3s 21:08:43 i thought it was just efreet bottles and scrolls of summoning that were the issue 21:08:46 does any ally really count as permanent when you're with xom 21:08:53 hehehe 21:08:54 i mean, he'll do something eventually 21:09:03 I guess efreet bottles and scrolls of summoning are permanent too 21:09:38 but I do remember getting permanent 3s from xom. I'll check if it's still in there 21:10:02 what if polymorphing just had an effect of being weighted towards adjusting HD downwards? 21:10:12 so long term, something that gets polymorphed a lot would wind up weak 21:10:21 yeah I suggested that a few lines up 21:10:26 oh, i missed it 21:10:33 19:06:57 < monqy> tendency to lower hd? 21:10:33 19:07:04 < monqy> mirroring the bad muts bias 21:12:29 the polymorph other player spell (not that it exists) might have been useful in that case too 21:16:25 looks like _xom_send_major_ally grants a permanent monster (friendly if demonic, 1 in 4 chance of hostility for non-demons) 21:17:14 so I guess it can even be greater demons or holies if you're lucky? 21:17:34 -!- dtsund-afk is now known as dtsund 21:19:56 no idea if perma-allies from xom are problematic though 21:20:18 Doesn't Twisted Resurrection give perma-allies too? 21:20:48 last I checked, yeah. they're undead though, so harder to abuse 21:21:39 twisted res is balanced in that it is maddening to actually use it 21:21:45 if it was easy to use, it would be overpowered 21:21:59 -!- cx1213 has joined ##crawl-dev 21:21:59 -!- cx1213 has quit [Changing host] 21:22:00 -!- cx1213 has joined ##crawl-dev 21:22:00 that still hasn't been fixed? 21:22:25 oh huh so it does 21:22:45 i even remember looking at that bit a while ago to see if xom really did gift angels 21:24:17 ragdoll hasn't exploited this yet? 21:24:36 i would wait until i get an overpowered gift, park it on a level, abandon xom, wait out the wrath, and then pick a real god 21:24:52 What is this "Maurice farming"? 21:25:09 Get Maurice to steal gold, poly him into a jelly, clone him, and he drops more gold? 21:25:12 -!- Twinge_ is now known as Twinge 21:25:12 dtsund: there used to be a bug where if you took monsters into the abyss and out again there'd still be a copy left in the abyss 21:25:14 nope 21:25:19 Aha. 21:25:31 i dont think the jelly method works 21:26:04 get maurice to steal your gold, acq scrolls, wands of wishing, drag into abyss, clone a bunch, kill some off, repeat 21:26:08 Ah, so you get him to steal thousands of gold, banish him, take him back out, and kill him for gold? 21:26:17 no, for acquirement scrolls 21:26:31 xomscumming cloned ~30k acquirement scrolls, then acquired a bunch of gold, then died to maurice 21:26:34 Ah, yeah. 21:26:36 and got the 7th highest score ever 21:26:40 nice 21:26:41 30 k? 21:26:46 30 *K*? 21:26:50 yeah, around that 21:26:58 I think xomscumming also got a ton of rings of robustness and cpm too 21:27:01 What is this I don't even. 21:27:06 he used a macro to read the scrolls 21:27:20 !hs * muck -log 21:27:21 4196. xomscumming, XL27 MuCK, T:478185: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/xomscumming/morgue-xomscumming-20110905-165025.txt 21:27:32 change the /trunk/ part to /0.9/ 21:27:39 http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/0.9/xomscumming/morgue-xomscumming-20110905-165025.txt 21:27:42 yeah 21:27:55 You collected 25909187 gold pieces. 21:27:56 You spent 8271 gold pieces at shops. 21:28:16 he also acquired a *ton* of armour 21:28:44 Was the death intentional? 21:28:49 presumably 21:28:50 yeah 21:28:51 very 21:28:59 Figured it had to be 21:28:59 it took a long time to pull off actually dying :P 21:29:17 "Here, have a wand of fire." 21:29:24 where did that max HP come from? 21:29:33 the rot? 21:29:47 dying made it easier to get a score of exactly 27 million as well, i think 21:29:51 the 25 fighting? 21:29:54 when mummies rot hp, they can only recover it by spending max mp or wand of healing charges 21:29:54 no, just the /243 21:29:58 oh, thats normal 21:29:59 the 25 fighting seems about right 21:30:15 243 nominal HP, down to 219 because of rot. 21:31:05 I know what rot does, I'm just not used to HP numbers that high when not berserking 21:31:14 I didn't know fixedarts could be generated more than once. 21:31:20 is that the highest score ever? 21:31:23 dtsund: it was the maurice farming 21:31:25 !hs * 21:31:25 1263205. hyperbolic the Petrodigitator (L20 DDEE), worshipper of Makhleb, escaped with the Orb and 15 runes on 2011-03-02, with 40764447 points after 35317 turns and 7:29:40. 21:31:27 those were cloned by maurice 21:31:33 Oh, duh. 21:31:35 since he can steal them 21:31:48 ais523: 7th highest. 21:32:23 how did ragdoll manage exactly 27000000? 21:32:26 ais523: i think the original plan was to get the global highscore but it was decided that'd be too obnoxious, and that getting 27 million exactly would be cooler anyway :P 21:32:44 you can access your xp with lua somewhere 21:33:02 so how were the even /higher/ scores managed? natural? 21:33:18 Has to be, you don 21:33:19 figured out what his adjusted xp value was, subtracted it from 27M, that's how much gold to die with 21:33:21 there are quite a lot of MAXINTs on the NetHack scoreboards, some of which use similar exploits, and some of which are just farming 21:33:26 can't scum in 35317 turns 21:33:33 crazy allrune speedruns 21:33:35 the higher scores are just very fast runes/time, yeah 21:33:45 the top 6 highscores are all legit 21:33:47 ??score 21:33:47 score[1/3]: [your gold + modified xp + 1000*(different runes + 2)^2 (winners only) + 6,250,000,000*(different runes^2)/turns (winners only)] 21:33:51 the muck is the only one that cheated 21:35:37 nice thing about score in crawl is that its actually a good measure of how "good" a win is, aside from one exception 21:35:47 it's a measure of how speedrunny an allruner is 21:35:53 the other elements are mostly irrelevant 21:35:56 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 21:36:03 yeah 21:37:07 so you might as well just measure by turncount 21:37:24 in AceHack, I aimed for making score a measure of effort spent trying to increase score 21:37:34 there are some 14 rune games that outscore 15 rune ones 21:37:36 well, runes / time means you can compare between 3 runers, etc 21:37:37 with a time penalty so farming forever wasn't optimal, and caps on each category so that farming forever never had a positive return 21:37:39 so going by turncount won't work perfectly 21:38:20 i looked at the acehack scoring, it's certainly a lot better than nethack's 21:38:35 although there are too many factors involved for my tastes. But I am a crawl player, so take that for what you will 21:39:24 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:39:40 indeed 21:39:49 I was trying to base it on something that the game didn't already measure 21:53:38 -!- hoody_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:53:51 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 21:55:30 -!- ainsophy_ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:55:30 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:59:23 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:59:52 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 22:06:23 -!- ainsophy_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:09:56 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 22:18:17 d - 660 curare-tipped +0 needles 22:18:20 i think this is the funniest 22:22:26 Corpse of a Unique retains partial identity when evolved into a wandering mushroom (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4523) by June 22:23:24 that's actually awesome 22:23:27 we should preserve that 22:23:43 that shouldn't even be considered a bug, it's too funny 22:26:07 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:29:10 NetHack does that too, with shopkeepers 22:29:21 although they don't get wandering-mushroom-ized 22:29:46 I agree, retroactively make that intentional 22:29:57 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 22:53:25 -!- hoody_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:56:17 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 23:04:21 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:08:10 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 23:26:59 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:28:41 -!- cx1213 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:30:51 -!- cx1213 has joined ##crawl-dev 23:34:51 -!- purge has quit [Quit: .] 23:41:25 -!- hoody_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:45:37 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev