00:00:31 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-487-g298eb13 (32) 00:11:33 -!- st__ has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:11:49 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:14:30 -!- Guest90088 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:14:38 -!- Guest90088 has joined ##crawl-dev 00:18:34 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-487-g298eb13 00:19:28 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 00:34:08 03kilobyte * r726cccb4b830 10/crawl-ref/docs/crawl_manual.reST: Manual sync from the wiki: octopodes and monks. 00:34:18 03kilobyte * rf15c97f659cd 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/altar/trog_wizard.des: Fix a see-through rock wall, and Trog masquerading as sort-of-Beogh. 00:34:18 03kilobyte * r4273fbbb59c7 10/crawl-ref/source/ (3 files in 3 dirs): Whitespace fixes. 00:44:24 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 00:46:24 -!- GreatZebu has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:46:39 -!- GreatZebu has joined ##crawl-dev 00:52:10 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:54:45 -!- GreatZebu has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:57:56 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:04:24 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 01:04:39 -!- GreatZebu has joined ##crawl-dev 01:10:02 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.10-a0-487-g298eb13 (32) 01:27:35 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: zzz] 01:28:59 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:31:23 -!- ryzol has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:38:29 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:51:17 -!- hoody_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:51:42 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 01:52:58 tartakower the Warrior (L19 HOEn) ASSERT(t != NON_ENTITY && t < MAX_SHOPS) in 'shopping.cc' at line 2094 failed on turn 49070. (Abyss) 01:56:17 -!- hoody__ has joined ##crawl-dev 01:56:25 -!- hoody_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:01:03 is there a way to create player ghosts in wizard mode? 02:01:45 yes 02:02:47 excellent, that will make things much easier 02:03:17 -!- Napkin_ has joined ##crawl-dev 02:03:28 i forget how, though. 02:03:39 i was just about to ask :-) 02:04:11 well, i will just take a look at the source for wizmode commands 02:04:18 -!- Napkin has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:05:47 ah, looks like control-g will do it, but you have to compile with DEBUG_BONES 02:10:41 Hm. 02:10:47 Do you build debug builds by default? 02:12:04 not unless i need gdb for something 02:12:16 i think it's not even enabled on a normal debug build though 02:12:43 huh 02:12:48 I'm pretty sure it is 02:12:55 make debug usually turns /everything/ on 02:13:03 significantly /not/ prefix trees though 02:13:05 for speech, etc 02:13:29 hmm, ok. good to know 02:14:54 ahh, ok. you're right. if you compile with FULLDEBUG then DEBUG_BONES gets turned on automatically 02:15:27 i find the amount of output when you compile with everything on to be pretty overwhelming though 02:15:46 anyway, this should definitely fix my problem 02:23:09 -!- hoody__ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:25:49 GreatZebu: escape is youfr friend in that instance :0 02:38:01 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 02:40:30 GreatZebu, nah, it's normal builds that are too damn quiet. 02:40:53 * Zaba doesn't remember when he last built a non-debug crawl 02:46:14 -!- jooosa has joined ##crawl-dev 02:48:13 -!- joosa has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:48:25 -!- jooosa is now known as joosa 02:50:00 yeah, debug has a lot of useful information in it 02:50:07 no doubt about thtat 02:59:42 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 03:00:36 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 03:04:11 -!- syllogism has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:12:27 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 03:13:35 -!- Napkin_ is now known as Napkin 03:23:33 moin 03:23:33 Napkin: You have 18 messages. Use !messages to read them. 03:23:39 !wtf MfSk 03:23:40 Merfolk Skald 03:51:01 -!- GreatZebu has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 04:07:48 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 04:20:51 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:22:08 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 04:36:25 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 04:46:05 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 04:48:01 Napkin: Hallo Meister, zugegen? 05:00:04 OSX builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-479-g74ba568 05:07:04 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:15:47 moin dpeg - what's up? 05:15:47 Napkin: you edited my news item? 05:15:47 Is there a way to enable comments, or did you disable them on purpose? 05:15:47 Und Hallo! 05:15:47 yes. category and closed wordpress comments 05:15:47 sure, scroll down below the input text-area when editing the post and enable comments again 05:15:47 Und Hallo! :) 05:15:47 ok, done -- thanks 05:15:47 why keep the wordpress comments open? 05:15:47 for people without account? 05:15:47 ?? 05:15:48 I don't understand. 05:15:48 you enabled comments on the post again. why so? :) 05:15:48 for people that don't have a mantis/tavern account to comment there? 05:15:48 I thought it's good if players can comment!? :O 05:15:48 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:16:34 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 05:16:34 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: DCSS Development | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 05:20:54 Is someone around who is capable of creating custom Pan lords with lua? Is this even possible? 05:22:02 how was the Pan lord that used to instakill people at the end of the tutorial done? 05:22:10 dpeg: Define custom? 05:23:23 due: I would like to finally get this Ziggurat level where you're in a really small room (think 5x5 or 3x9), facing a single Pan lord. The walls are undiggable glass, and outside are masses of imps etc., the spectators. 05:23:32 I have the feeling that the Pan lord to be used should be hand made. 05:23:33 presumably, defining things like name (probably easy) and spell list (easy or hard depending on whether it's possible) 05:23:52 Of course, experience with ziggurats would also help. I designed them, but have very little experience =) 05:23:53 dpeg: Then make a unique? 05:25:35 0.9.1 was tagged? 05:26:23 due: the issue with a unique is that people would feel they had to do zigs (and get lucky with the levels that came up) in order to get an entire encyclopedia of uniques 05:26:27 for a trophy or whatever 05:26:37 ais523: so? 05:27:13 IIRC zigs don't have runes for the same reason, they're currently not balanced enough to be made mandatory for anything 05:27:35 hmm, perhaps I should stop channeling dpeg, it's out of character for me :) 05:27:36 Well, if the dungeon builder doesn't give you the Jory vault, youdon't get Jory. 05:27:49 I don't see how a unique in a Ziggurat would /make/ people do anything. 05:28:04 Even if it did, well, so what? 05:28:05 due: suppose you add an effect to Crawl that increases the inventory weight cap 05:28:08 it doesn't matter what it is, at all 05:28:20 what? 05:28:20 someone will go and try to get the new record for runes transported out of the dungeon, possibly many people 05:28:36 and kill-all-uniques is normally an actual goal in tournaments 05:28:37 I fail to see how that is at all related? 05:28:42 whereas I don't think I've seen a zig-related one 05:28:46 Well, kill-all-uniques is /impossible/. 05:28:58 and "get deep in a zig" is, or at least was, a tournament goal last year. 05:29:06 they're allowed to do it over multiple games 05:29:24 in fact, I've seen complaints by tourney players over the difficulty of meeting Dissension 05:29:41 Well, we can just not count the Zig unique? 05:29:47 But still, your objections make no realistic sense. 05:30:06 I'm trying to explain the probable reason why dpeg's reaction was "pan lord" not "unique" 05:30:09 "you shouldn't put a unique in a ziggurat because obsessive players will struggle to find him to kill him in a tournament". 05:30:28 also cf. Cerebov 05:30:34 who is guaranteed, right? 05:30:55 No, he's not guaranteed. 05:30:58 I'm not sure he counts as a pan lord internally; he just guards a level in Pan, so is flavourwise a pan lord 05:31:15 if you keep doing pan levels, you'll find Cerebov's eventually, otherwise 15-runers would randomly be impossible 05:31:17 I mean he is not explicitly guaranteed. 05:31:19 which would be ridiculous 05:31:41 You just iterate through Pan until you find Cerebov's map. 05:31:53 Which has to happen eventually because all of the uniq ones get exhausted. 05:32:06 But /still/, your point is completely invalidated by Jory. 05:32:29 If his vault doesn't get placed, you do not get him in that game. 05:32:45 people have been known to repeatedly start multiple games in an attempt to get particular uniques 05:32:50 (thus Dissension, as mentioned) 05:32:53 regardless 05:33:01 /why do we care about these people?/ 05:33:16 dpeg wants a hand-crafted Pan lord; the simplest way to do this is to create a unique. 05:33:28 because there's no reason not to? 05:33:37 I'm pretty sure there was a hand-crafted Pan lord before now, in the tutorial 05:34:04 There's a difference between customising and hand-crafting. 05:35:13 !coffee due 05:35:14 * Henzell hands due a cup of caffè macchiato, brewed by Snorg. 05:35:43 I still do not understand how a unique in a Ziggurat is an issue beyond people who want to kill every unique. In that instance, they can do Ziggurats! If it's a Tournament thing, that unique could always be excluded from the lists. 05:35:56 rax: could you update crawl-0.9 on CAO, please? I still have no idea how to do that :) 05:36:12 I've just found the line in question, actually: 05:36:32 MONS: pandemonium lord name:Plog name_replace spells:fire_storm;;haste;;; 05:36:45 I think that line will probably do what dpeg wants, without having to create a unique 05:36:45 AsI said a moment ago, hand-crafted isn't equivalent to customising. 05:37:01 Stable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.9.1-0-g628869b (32) 05:37:02 I can't see an obvious difference in the meaning of the words 05:37:04 It still doens't handle experience, attacks, abilities, HP, etc -- all of the "random" pan lord bits. 05:37:50 HP and HD can be defined in vault definitions, but levitating or flying -- so much of the "Pan lord"-y stuff cannot. 05:37:53 I have the feeling that the Pan lord to be used should be hand made. 05:37:56 presumably for balance reasons 05:38:09 Exactly. 05:38:13 and so you only need to define the things that factor into balance 05:38:16 back 05:38:19 lev/fly, for instance, doesn't on a level with no water 05:38:36 Napkin: 0.9.1 was released, no announcment yet, tho. 05:38:44 Attacks? Abilities? Experience? 05:38:49 i'm writing that announcement 05:39:29 Beyond superficial customisation, including name, base HP, spells and HD, it's not possible to adjust Pan lords through Lua. 05:39:48 And all of those non-custom values would be randomly generated. 05:40:33 Whereas a unique is defined precisely, without variance (for the most part). 05:41:14 http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/0-9-1-bugfix-release <- made kilobyte the author ;-P 05:41:55 So, disregarding "but they won't be able to kill everything unique /easily/! they'll /complain/!", why shouldn't we use the very mechanism Crawl has for exactly this purpose to our advantage, than fussing around with Lua definitions? 05:54:24 Napkin: awesome 05:54:58 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 05:55:12 edlothiol: you've been urgently awaited! 05:55:25 oh 05:55:25 edlothiol: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 05:55:27 ais523: I agree with due on this one. While adding new uniques for special purposes does look a bit inelegant (random stuff is generally better), we should never take conducts into design considerations. 05:55:45 I'm currently without internet at home, so I can't check in often :/ 05:55:59 If a change happens to make speed run easier or harder -- who cares? The best players will have the fastest wins whatsoever. 05:56:08 edlothiol: :( how can you survive without internet at home! 05:57:42 due: I have to manage with public wifi ;) 05:58:30 ais523: It is true that this policy makes versions incomparable (e.g. turncount for fastest win), but we have even changed the scoring completely for 0.5 or so. 06:02:10 -!- st__ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:09:37 hey edlothiol - don't worry about the init_user() call then.. i'm running the dgl-where daemon in a while true 06:09:38 Napkin: It's no problem, I'll push the fix probably tomorrow 06:09:38 roger, roger, kein stress 06:09:38 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:10:16 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 06:10:16 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: DCSS Development | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 06:14:36 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 06:16:24 btw, everyone interested in Ely should have a quick look at https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:god:elyvilon -- I'd like to ask dolorous what he thinks of this 06:21:39 due: editing ghost_demon from lua would be trivial to add 06:21:57 from vault definition, 06:21:57 w 38 06:22:05 Hm 06:22:07 oh 06:22:12 Yeah, but that wasn't really my point. 06:22:20 far less work than from MONS: lines I guess 06:22:50 s/from vault definition, // 06:23:00 yeah 06:23:26 kilobyte: I'll make a first version with a random pan lord, and then come back to you folks. 06:23:36 I will need help with the speech anyway. 06:24:21 all new fields except resists are scalars 06:24:59 ghost_demon is very limited, though -- it can't even have multiple attacks 06:28:28 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:33:05 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:33:13 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 06:33:31 dpeg: just finished reading backlog. I get Napkin's point about disabling comment on your blog post. It consist mostly of a link to the tavern. If people want to comment, let them do there. Less information spread. 06:34:27 galehar: ok ok, I have no business with blogs. 06:34:50 nono, you're not getting off the hook so easily, dpeg ;-P 06:35:28 comments disabled :] 06:35:56 galehar: Do you trust me when I have plans for changing Elyvilon? 06:36:14 I always do :P 06:36:18 hehe 06:36:35 * galehar goes on to read the Ely wiki page 06:36:35 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 06:36:36 There _are_ some opinions where we differ :) 06:37:15 dpeg: heh, I read that Ely page earlier today 06:37:19 is it considered an implementable yet? 06:38:29 I am not sure if this is implementable stuff. 06:40:21 Could be too much, and the advanced implementables haven't been tackled yet. If dolorous accepts the ideas, the Ely stuff will be very good with him. (He has helped a lot with the gods.) 06:43:02 one thing I note is that I'm not convinced that the weapon sacrifice changes will avoid tedium too much 06:43:20 because you're still going to want to investigate every weapon to see if it's valuable enough to be worth sacrificing 06:43:45 pretty much, anything glowing you're going to try to sacrifice on the offchance that it's valuable 06:44:49 well at least you know you don't have to bother with non-glowing stuff 06:45:46 would it be too powerful to allow Elyvilon's sacrifice to work like Fedhas', affecting the whole LOS unless you mark something as don't-destroy? 06:46:10 that way, you can sacrifice weapons just as soon as you know they're there 06:46:48 I suppose this is me in my AceHack mindset, thinking "you shouldn't be afraid to buff the player just to make the interface nicer" 06:47:12 I guess you'd have to be even more careful checking every stash in LOS for stuff you might want to use before sacrificing. 06:47:46 it turned out that I accidentally nerfed BCU-idenfication via item-stacking there, and responded by allowing unBCUed items to stack with BCUed ones, "these items seem quite similar"-style 06:48:16 you could do that anyway by deliberately splitting stacks and BCUing all but one, but nobody but atheists bothered with that 06:48:50 so I suppose the difference between AceHack and Crawl attitudes is that when Crawl finds a fiddly exploit, they make it impossible, whereas when I find one, I make it less fiddly 06:49:11 sacrificing weapons as Ely is hardly an exploit, but I think I'm thinking along the same lines 06:49:30 dpeg: I have little experience playing with Ely, but those changes seem reasonable 06:49:51 dpeg: regarding messages, I think the failed pacification message could be changed too. 06:50:30 dpeg: "nothing happened" has been confusing me at first. Do I need to hurt it first? Is it immune? 06:51:31 dpeg: it should more clearly convey why the invocation has failed 06:52:07 -!- evilmike has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:52:21 galehar: I think I dislike subtle "nothing happens" variations as much as you do 06:53:04 NetHack does well by having a standardised "You have a strange feeling, then it passes" message for instances where the game doesn't want you to be able to identify what just happened, but badly about what messages it gives when it does 06:54:03 when "nothing happens", it usually means that nothing will ever happen from that action (monster immune, no wall to dig,...). 06:54:17 so here it is misleading 06:56:10 galehar: NetHack's unihorns do that well: "nothing happens" = in the current gamestate, repeating that action will have no effect; "nothing seems to happen" = that action randomly had no effect, but has a chance of succeeding 06:56:20 although the message is still annoyingly vague 06:57:15 -!- mumra has joined ##crawl-dev 06:57:20 ok 06:58:05 regarding the pacification message, how about just using the same message as for Hexes spells? 06:58:47 back (children playing all the time) 06:59:38 isn't it nap time? 06:59:41 (it is here) 06:59:56 galehar: would you make a comment on messages? I don't mind much either way, but it's a dangerous subject. Everyone has an opinion :) 07:00:10 will do 07:00:16 oh no, not /opinions/! 07:00:18 * due hides from them. 07:00:32 galehar: no naps here, my kids are power players. 07:01:12 :D 07:01:21 dpeg, do you know graphviz at all? you are a mathly type... 07:02:16 Problem with Ely: Pacification is way more spoiler-reliant than most abilities in the game. In-game description tells you it depends on healing power. No mention of monster's health being a factor at all. 07:02:20 due, what is your graphviz question? 07:03:05 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 07:03:20 due: no, don't know 07:03:26 RichardHawk: is it? You have to first hurt the monster before healing it? I've always wondered about that. 07:03:39 No, their maximum health is the factor. 07:03:44 dpeg: you are mathly? 07:03:54 Way harder to pacify a death yak than a spiny frog. 07:03:59 * galehar 's wife is a math teacher 07:04:07 03galehar 07mimics * rd9150b214cb5 10/crawl-ref/source/ (dungeon.cc enum.h mapdef.cc): Add the mimic and no_mimic flags to item vault specification. 07:04:18 03galehar 07mimics * r1f89dd7273f6 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/altar.des: Fix the xom_gifts_altar to use the new mimic vault definition. 07:04:22 You don't actually have to heal them all to pacify them! 07:04:27 Which is also silly. 07:04:30 RichardHawk: isn't it because of HD, not HP? 07:04:31 *at all 07:05:28 Henzell claims the check to pass is the monster's maxhp * holiness modifier. 07:05:47 galehar: I am a mathematician, yes. Research and teaching at a university. 07:05:47 I haven't looked at the code to make sure, but it seems right from experience. 07:06:34 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:06:38 Napkin: by the way, I have an idea about the open connections... I'll push a fix for that (if it is what I think it is) too tomorrow, or later today 07:06:55 oh, awesome :) 07:07:02 and now I have to go again... bye 07:07:07 ciao! 07:07:29 dpeg: I need your help. New mimics are almost finished. I just have to fix 2 vaults which use mimics, but I'm not sure how to. 07:07:39 fake_guardian_serpent_vault and lemuel_lich_library 07:08:10 fake guardian serpent is my one =) 07:08:14 galehar: what about them? 07:08:55 well, with the mimic implementation, you can't define mimic monsters in vaults. You have to define items (or features) and mark them as mimics 07:09:12 see what I did with xom_gifts_altar 07:09:20 it was simple. 07:09:22 Zaba: I'm just trying to plot something slightly more... spatially. 07:09:26 damn, just deleted the message :| 07:09:39 Zaba: it's a map of an interactive fiction game, where each room is a cardinal direction away from anotehr 07:09:40 but those 2 others are a bit more complicated and I'm not exactly sure what's the intended effect 07:09:49 Either way, an unspoiled player would have no idea why pacifying some animals is harder than others. MR is documented in game, there's just nothing that explains pacify success apart from holiness. 07:10:02 due, ah, and you want to arrange the nodes manually? 07:10:11 RichardHawk: you'd think a rat is easier than a hydra, no? 07:10:21 Zaba: not... really. But I'd like it to know that something is north/south of something else. 07:10:28 where is the inscription =f for ? 07:10:34 galehar: for the serpent vault, I just want that a player cannot be sure that the serpent vault is full of goodies. It's a little joke. 07:10:53 Zaba: It's automatically generated from the data, but it has all the information it needs; I just can't work otu how to tell it "this edge is north/south" 07:10:59 dpeg: But would you think hydra is easier than a death yak? 07:11:04 Zaba: it would seem to be a simple thing... 07:11:06 due, is it directed? 07:11:07 -!- Pingas has joined ##crawl-dev 07:11:08 RichardHawk: contextually, yes 07:11:19 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:11:22 Zaba: yes, but it's cyclic 07:11:41 RichardHawk: I don't think such an assessment is necessary. Do you need to know whether hydra or death yak has more HP? 07:11:42 due, well, you could assign ranks manually and see if it helps... 07:12:06 Zaba: yeah, that is an option i suppose 07:12:25 dpeg: Some kind of tiering would be nice. Like MR display. 07:12:30 As long as I am around, I'll jealously protect the numbers. Players should go on without looking at numbers all the time. 07:12:36 RichardHawk: I don't see why. 07:13:12 hydra is a tough opponent, so it's not easy to pacify -- you try Minor once, it'll probably fail, so you use Major 07:13:33 Zaba: the geomapping is /nice/ though http://wxwhatever.com/mat/11/geomap.png 07:14:06 Zaba: I can't work out how to tell GraphViz to not scrunch everything together with sfdp though 07:14:18 dpeg: if b > 7, then any cell has 50% chance of being a mimic or an item, if b > 1 it's 75% for mimic, and if b <= 1, then it's all loot. Am I reading it right? 07:14:20 RichardHawk: do you speak in principal terms, or from actual Elyvilon game experience? 07:14:23 Zaba: I've tried -Goverlap=prism but not effect. 07:14:32 dpeg: Actual experience. 07:14:47 no, if b <=1 it's all mimics 07:14:49 galehar: which file is the serpent vault in? 07:14:59 mini_monsters.des 07:15:26 RichardHawk: good. In my games, I never cared about this level of detail. (Okay, I designed pacification, but all numbers escaped me when playing.) 07:17:05 galehar: with 20% chance, half of the items are mimics; with 60% chance, 1/4 of items are mimics; with 20% chance, no mimics. If I parse this correctly. 07:17:17 galehar: I think this is exactly what you wrote :) 07:17:53 due, I've mostly dealt with dot, don't know much about the others 07:18:04 due, but yeah, it already looks nice 07:18:13 galehar: and you're right, the remaining 20% mean all mimics. 07:18:15 dpeg: Without spoilers I certainly never would have figured that a black mamba is notably easier to pacify than say, a giant slug, and kept on burning excessive piety on Major on anything tougher to deal with than a giant slug. Noting health is a factor in the ability description would be quite useful - I don't see why a large factor of an ability's success is only available to players who 07:18:15 use henzell 07:18:17 due, what game is that? :> 07:18:33 RichardHawk: I never use Henzell. 07:18:39 dpeg: all right, I think I can translate that in the new system 07:18:49 Zaba: http://wxwhatever.com/mat/11 <-- :) 07:18:56 galehar: all the probabilities might be different, but the idea should be clear :) 07:19:33 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:19:50 now, about lemuel_lich_library (zot.des). Currently, all loot is books and scrolls, but it also has random mimics which can be of any type (so easy to spot) 07:20:08 I can turn a part of the scrolls into mimics 07:20:28 like 1/7 or something 07:20:35 due, lovely. I like text adventures, even though I fail at them. Just like with roguelikes :> 07:21:00 Zaba: haha, yes -- I love IF, but I write it becuas ei'm rubbish at playing them :) 07:21:56 -!- blackpenguin has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:24:47 galehar: yes, scroll/book mimics with the appropriate chances are much better 07:25:28 there is no book mimic (yet?) 07:26:03 ah, but books can bite, too! 07:26:12 for now, the only item mimics are weapons, armour, scrolls, potions and gold 07:26:22 they bite, and then you burn them, this is how I always do irt 07:26:46 Wasn't there a biting book in Buffy? 07:27:13 I am not informed. 07:27:24 in discworld there are 07:27:59 anyway, we can add more item type mimics. Book and staves fit, but maybe not missiles, wands, jewellery and misc items 07:28:08 and maybe not food either 07:28:27 galehar: yes 07:29:17 -!- blackpenguin has joined ##crawl-dev 07:29:20 saw a good idea a while back for animated book monsters (like dancing weapons) 07:29:48 due, what do you think about MUDs? 07:30:06 dpeg: what's your mathematical field? 07:30:31 dpeg: At the very least, I would love to see pacification get failure messages more akin to hexes. With pacification you have no idea whether you were close or should just quit trying. 07:30:54 pure maths -> algebraic geometry -> homological methodes (it's pretty abstract, even for pure stuff, but by no means at the top level of abstraction :) 07:31:12 RichardHawk: yes, sounds good. Make a comment on the wiki please. 07:31:24 Right. 07:32:32 Zaba: I don't have time, alas 07:33:13 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 07:34:24 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:57:27 about mimics, they are all named foo mimic (weapon mimic, potion mimic) except gold which is just a pile of gold coin. Wouldn't a gold mimic be better? 07:57:48 also, what is better, a weapon mimic or a long sword mimic? A potion mimic or a potion of healing mimic? 07:57:58 the latter, in all cases 07:58:20 i thought it used to be the latter, but was changed for some reason or other? 07:58:20 MarvinPA: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 08:00:09 can get wordy. A potion of restore abilities mimic. 08:00:46 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:04:28 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:11:55 what has precendence in vault definitions, "," or "/" 08:12:12 ITEM: any book, any scroll / any scroll mimic w:1 08:12:24 how many mimics does that make? 1 in 10 or 1 in 20? 08:16:32 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 08:18:41 galehar, , has higher precedence, I believe 08:18:52 galehar, ITEM: foo, bar is just like writing ITEM: foo \n ITEM: bar 08:19:49 er those 2 sentences seem contradictory to me 08:20:08 galehar, ok, then , has lower precedence :P 08:20:40 I always mix up the meaning of 'precedence', somehow... 08:20:47 then in my example, 1 in 20 mimics 08:21:06 depends on the distribution of the d and e glyphs in the map 08:21:32 that means that all d are books, and all e are scrolls or scroll mimics 08:21:40 there's no e 08:21:56 that's what that ITEM line means 08:21:56 oh but there's a subst 08:22:59 galehar: I didn't realise you never made a vault :) Can I help youß 08:23:23 yeah, I skipped that part :P 08:24:21 no problems, Crawl is big (there's also lua, the speech syntax etc.) 08:24:22 it's lemuel_lich_library. It starts by replacing 1 d in 10 by a mimic, then 1 d in 2 by an e. 08:24:29 yes, I looked at it 08:25:02 also, note that 'foo / bar w:1' is really a 1 in 11 chance for bar, not 1 in 10. 08:25:20 oh right, forgot about that 08:25:25 thanks 08:25:46 it has 17 spots for items (the d glyphs), of which some are changed into mimics with the SUBST: d = d 6:1 line (this means weight 10 to stay an item, weight 1 to become mimic) 08:26:09 afterwards, the remaining items are turned into 1/3 books 08:26:56 so, expected values are 17/11 mimics, 272/33 books, 454/33 scrolls 08:28:01 galehar: you don't have to hit exactly the same probabilities with your modifications. Level designers pull arbitrary numbers out off their unusually large hats, Lemuel being a particularly prominent candidate 08:28:48 sure. and maybe the new implementation enable more sensible repartition than the old one. 08:29:35 just trying to get a good feel of what was there 08:29:38 not sure why the old one is not sensible :) 08:29:49 those expected values number don't make much sense to me:( 08:30:55 hey, nobody thinks in those terms, I listed them for fun 08:31:11 oh, got it. You just multiplied by 17 which confused me 08:31:32 You see, Lemuel puts down a number of d's and then he applies operations to it. He thought a 1/11 rate of mimics would be good, and that he'd like 2:1 scrolls:books 08:34:14 http://pastebin.com/hb1Q6qrk 08:34:50 that should do it, right? 08:36:34 galehar: yes, only that you now get 1:2 scrolls:books, iiuc 08:36:47 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 08:37:16 hm, there is a surprising amount of support for the DG abstract worshippers idea 08:37:48 why? I didn't change this line: SUBST: d = d:20 e 08:38:05 galehar: yes, but you have books first and scrolls second in the ITEM line 08:39:43 like it was before 08:40:22 ah, so I got it wrong from the start: Lemuel wants 66% books and 33% scrolls -- makes sense in a library :) 08:40:25 sorry 08:44:01 fine 08:44:11 I think I've figured it out then 08:44:14 cool 08:44:26 I guess that makes new mimics ready for trunk 08:45:28 !send galehar cosmic mimic 08:45:29 Sending cosmic mimic to galehar. 08:46:04 dpeg: about Chei and recuded slots. If you get full bonus with less slots, it's normal that you also get full speed reduction 08:47:14 galehar: hm, okay 08:47:27 not fully clear to me, but if you say so 08:48:07 or else, you put a ponderous hat as an Oc, get full bonus and only speed of 12 08:49:04 it was elliptic's change, maybe he can expain it better :P 08:49:11 dpeg: re: the fire magic thread, it seems to have ended up with the conclusion that fire magic is weak mainly because most other elements get more of their strong spells guaranteed as vehumet gifts 08:49:15 I'll talk to him about it, sure. 08:49:25 so the obvious fix there is to remove vehumet gifts, rather than add fire spells to them :P 08:49:31 MarvinPA: yes, that was interesting and surprising (to me). 08:49:52 actually i do quite like the suggestion of veh offering to gift random conjurations directly into memory, as opposed to the book gifts 08:49:53 MarvinPA: well, there was another thread about gifts... and I don't like book gifts, especially for V. 08:49:59 yes 08:50:15 He should offer you to teach you a spell, and you have to accept/decline on the spot. 08:50:33 yeah, i'd like to try that out 08:50:55 MarvinPA: there is no design as of yet. If you want to, we can flesh something out. 08:51:27 only on gifted spell in memory at a time? Don't take any slot. 08:51:37 *only one 08:52:03 no,regular spells 08:52:08 just not from book soure 08:52:19 would make amnesia a more precious resource for veh, a nice counterpoint to sif! 08:52:42 if they did take slots that is 08:52:44 MarvinPA: yes. Also, if your full with spells, V cannot gift anything, so your choice whether you want to keep up to 9 slots free or not. 08:53:05 Sure, no reason to use different mechanics. 08:53:38 -!- hoody_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:54:04 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:54:06 MarvinPA: might be best to remove the Sum part from V before? 08:54:24 yeah, that'd be good to do at the same time or beforehand 08:54:33 so you can keep the gifted spells in memory as long as you want? And if you want more, then just free up some place? 08:54:40 galehar: yes 08:54:54 galehar: this is like the current situations, just with a few more choices 08:55:57 you might end up using floor books as a source of amnesia to get rid of undesirable gifts. Tearing books left and right, even more opposition to Sif :) 08:56:09 galehar: I like that. 08:56:25 Is it possible to count how many books have been destroyed for amnesia purposes? 08:56:46 anything is possible ;) 08:56:54 but this isn't implemented yet 08:57:04 galehar: ah, I think the player should be queried about the gift: "Vehumet offers to teach Orb of Destruction. Do you want to learn this spell? (y/n)" 08:57:22 yeah, good idea 08:58:06 should they use less slots than book spells? 08:58:32 MarvinPA: Random conjurations, as in Vehumet would no longer offer support to summoners? 08:58:52 -!- hoody_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:58:52 RichardHawk: probably, that's been an idea that's been thrown around for quite a while anyway 09:00:09 although it does mean there'd be a fairly narrow selection of gods for summoners to choose from, unfortunately... 09:01:47 Yeah, summoners already are the playstyle that loses the least/gains most from going Demigod. 09:02:49 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:03:06 all the more reason to get the pact god idea fleshed out i suppose :P 09:03:45 oh and i guess there was the idea to make ely not give penance on ally death, just piety loss 09:12:53 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 09:19:34 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 09:27:51 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 09:28:08 03galehar 07mimics * re4f3645d68c6 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/ (branches/zot.des variable/mini_monsters.des): Fix 2 other vaults with the new mimic definition. 09:30:01 pact god! :) 09:34:09 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:40:07 03edlothiol * r4b116c27f78b 10/crawl-ref/source/webserver/static/client.js: Re-sort the player list after receiving an update. 09:40:17 03edlothiol * r5c46a256a508 10/crawl-ref/source/webserver/server.py: Immediately initialize newly registered users. 09:40:17 03edlothiol * raea6551632d2 10/crawl-ref/source/webserver/ (config.py server.py): Pass a timeout value for HTTP keep-alive connections to the server. 09:40:48 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 09:41:31 Napkin: hier? 09:41:40 ja 09:50:37 back once more 09:51:23 re V: no, why should gift spells use fewer slots? They're the same as normal spells for all purposes, just that V offers you to give them to you (and we check that the spell is in no book the player has found) 09:52:28 MarvinPA: pact god is quite an amount of work (like Nemelex, I'd say) -- it's worth it, but tackling V is much, much smaller 09:52:50 yeah 09:55:37 MarvinPA: by this I mean that I believe you and I (or who else is around) can settle the spell gift details in a single afternoon 09:58:41 -!- Guest90088 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:58:51 yeah, i'd be up for trying to figure out the details of it 09:58:58 right now? :) 09:59:04 sure! 09:59:09 * dpeg fills another cup of milk. 09:59:13 -!- Twilight-1 has joined ##crawl-dev 09:59:51 MarvinPA: 1. We scrap the Sum part from V. 2. We need a list of spells that are potentially interesting for the Vehumite. That should be possible, right? 10:00:15 hmm, i imagine so 10:00:40 i guess it should find something from the list of vehumet-supported spells that you have a reasonable success rate at casting? 10:00:46 As I see it, gifts should only be done at zero tension (it involves a query), but it could be done after an exciting battle, if we like (i.e. if tension was zero for some turns after a spike) -- not sure that's worth it, though. 10:00:48 can gift any random spell with the conj school which fit in the slot, has decent success and has not been found 10:00:55 yes 10:01:04 We could either use skills, or just go with success. 10:01:19 Success is probably more direct, hence better. 10:01:31 have to go 10:01:32 'later 10:01:38 see you! 10:01:42 Spells that have been offered and rejected are not offered again? At least for a long time? 10:01:49 -!- syllogism has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:02:12 Is there any way to spawn a "winged helmet" specifically in wizard mode? 10:02:17 As it's actually a "helmet". 10:02:21 probably not for a while would be good rather than not at all, yeah 10:02:25 ok 10:02:30 Pingas: sorry, don't know 10:02:47 Pingas: you can make a vault with DEPTH: D:2 and ITEM: winged helmet perhaps? 10:03:09 MarvinPA: Do we want some sense of progression (like the book gifts currently have)? I.e. take the lower level spell, when in doubt? 10:03:34 What about if Vehumet would like it if you forget spells via book? 10:03:38 hmm... maybe that would happen organically anyway if it's just checking for success rates 10:03:40 (sorry for onslaught) 10:03:48 MarvinPA: yes, probably 10:03:53 has whatever ragdoll's been doing been fixed? :P 10:03:55 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 10:04:15 but i guess later on if you have high conjurations and spellcasting it should maybe start weighting towards higher level spells, to prevent spamming you with very low level things you can easily cast but aren't interested in 10:04:26 Mu_: yeah, in 0.9.1 10:04:34 oki 10:04:45 I tried making item "winged helmet", but the item itself is only "helmet". Tried tweaking with &-t, but it doesn't seem like the values you can change with tweak can change the variation of helmets. 10:04:59 MarvinPA: yes, we don't want V to offer all the Ice/Fire/etc cheap spells, when you're really waiting for OOD. 10:05:12 Pingas: try the vault. Do you know how to do that? 10:05:33 but it may use the same routine 10:05:36 I'll probably find out in &-?, no? 10:05:59 no 10:06:16 Ah, ok. Nope, I don't., 10:06:21 Pingas: you'd have to add a tiny vault to some des file (take anyone). Add the lines: 10:06:26 NAME: pingas_test_vault 10:06:36 ITEM: winged helmet 10:06:40 MAP 10:06:40 d 10:06:42 ENDMAP 10:07:02 save the .des file, start Crawl in wizmode, and do &L pingas 10:07:17 Ah, I'll try that! 10:07:24 Pingas: might not work though! 10:07:49 MarvinPA: perhaps we should use highest level of a memorised damage spell as a parameter for gifts? 10:08:06 as in, veh should try to aim for around that level? 10:08:16 or better, yes 10:08:53 dpeg: Any des files? As in any .des in \dat\des? 10:08:55 MarvinPA: if we feel it is too cumbersome, we can also offer several spells (players chooses at most one), but that feels gimmicky (like Nemelex's Triple Draw) and is probably not necessary. 10:08:59 Pingas: yes 10:09:02 Alright. 10:09:22 that could be a possibility, yeah 10:09:42 how many spells are in the list, approximately? 10:10:18 dpeg: I added the lines to a .des file - now crawl shuts down after 1 second. 10:10:43 -!- hoody_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:10:45 Pingas: can you see the error message? Does it run if you remove the "winged"? 10:11:09 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:11:12 hmm, i count 31 conjurations, plus there are a few non-conjurations that veh also supports like LRD and shatter 10:11:22 dpeg: No visible messages, still shuts down with "winged" removed. 10:12:59 -!- hoody__ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:13:00 -!- hoody_ has quit [Read error: No route to host] 10:13:46 Pingas: add a DEPTH: D:1-20 line 10:14:19 so about 40 altogether 10:14:23 dpeg: Now it opened. Let's see. I'll try the &-L. 10:15:03 dpeg: I got it place the vault. 10:15:48 Pingas: perhaps add staircases (like ..<>..), so you can easily find the vault after &{ 10:15:51 I got a "golden helmet" 10:15:57 MarvinPA: that's not so bad 10:16:56 Pingas: you're interested in the winged helmet tile, right? You can also create a large number of helmets: ..ddddddddddddddddddddd.. 10:17:39 when should the offers of spells start? could probably be earlier than the book gifts which aren't until 6* piety, maybe at 4*? 10:18:00 dpeg: Sorry, how? Add it as a line? 10:18:11 Pingas: in the map, yes 10:18:25 MarvinPA: yes. Can restrict level to piety *s. 10:18:37 dpeg: Just a random "..ddddddddddddddddddddd.." before the end map line? 10:18:38 yeah, that'd be good too 10:18:58 ****: up to level 5, ***** up to level 7, ****** up to level 9? 10:18:59 at least as an early cap 10:19:02 yes 10:19:04 that sounds reasonable 10:20:10 dpeg: i had a new idea about making T&D more interesting; see under "Tactical Usage" on the Traps wiki page 10:20:50 MarvinPA: i say have gifts start as soon as you join vehumet 10:21:06 but just with L1 spells at first, etc. 10:21:15 mumra: ugh, I just deleted that one 10:21:36 hmm, that could also be interesting so there's appeal for people who don't already have conj spells, yeah 10:21:44 mumra: that's really unfortunate, I've been spending some hours to fully rework the traps page :| 10:21:46 right, compare sif vs. kiku 10:21:52 mumra: can you add your stuff if I push now? 10:21:57 it is much much easier to pick up kiku on a melee-er 10:22:07 dpeg: i made changes after yours 10:22:08 dpeg: Thanks a alot! Worked. :) 10:22:13 a lot* 10:22:16 mumra: that was just saving in the middle 10:22:27 dpeg: ok, it'll be no trouble to re-add 10:22:43 mumra: I apologise. But yesterday I lost a huge amount of editing the Ely page, so for traps I saved in the middle. Sorry! 10:22:43 maybe make it 2* so that he'll at least be giving you wizardry on conj spells 10:23:04 so you don't get quite as fast a return as with kiku, but it'd still be an option 10:23:24 that sounds good, yeah - at least such that you could have some conj spells up and running before lair 10:23:27 gifts from start is too early, imo, but the idea is good 10:23:43 Pingas: cool! 10:24:03 Pingas: vaults is the only part where I actually know a little. 10:24:49 Nothing should happen before * piety (apart from baits, which we don't have yet). 10:28:53 -!- tester8372 has joined ##crawl-dev 10:29:27 mumra: but now you can also comment on a fresh, new page :) 10:31:33 dpeg: redone, yes it's much cleaner now :) 10:32:54 mumra: could you stand behind it? (The early stuff is important, the later is much more vague) 10:33:28 dpeg: sorry, what do you mean ? 10:33:32 hm, the easy part of that could be Implementable stuff -- if we get all devs to agree 10:33:40 mumra: do you agree with the basic ideas? 10:34:32 dpeg: ah, i see, will add comments 10:34:56 thanks 10:36:46 mumra: I support your idea, but I believe the basics (replace mechanical traps by better ones) should come really soon. galehar suggested yesterday to first add the new stuff, so that'd be a good start. 10:38:37 dpeg: absolutely, and a lot of them can be implemented immediately with LUA - e.g. cloud traps could use a pressure plate and a fog machine 10:40:34 dpeg: actually i've been working on some trap vaults already, see the other section i added on "Boulders and other projectiles" 10:40:41 I read that :) 10:41:29 dpeg: also i started working an idea suggested by Wensley for 'elemental traps'. i'll add something about that. 10:42:01 dpeg: http://pastebin.com/HRHvK7CJ that's what i have so far 10:43:30 mumra: awesome. But I am right now concerned about the basic stuff :) We just need simple, functional proposals for a few new trap types to get the bal rolling. 10:43:43 MarvinPA: you rock, was about to ask if Vehumet took you someplace :) 10:44:55 MarvinPA: all good! 10:45:45 There should be a queue of all V spells. If the player finds a book with a spell from the list, delete it. (Even if the book is destroyed later on? I'd say so....) 10:46:06 03edlothiol * r50fb492dbfb5 10/crawl-ref/source/webserver/server.py: Fix an exception in the Webtiles server's error handling. 10:46:12 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 10:46:29 The queue is sorted by success and the other parameters. if the player rejects a spell, that spell is moved to the end of the queue (and must be stickied there somehow). 10:46:48 MarvinPA: gift timeouts should increase with offered gift spell levels. 10:47:22 Oh, and when V decides to gift, he'll obviously offer a spell that fits your free slots. 10:47:34 ah yeah 10:48:02 This might allow players to guide V a bit -- are we fine with that? 10:48:25 (The alternative would be that V rolls his gift first, and it just does not happen if your slots don't match.) 10:48:41 oh, are you talking about vehumet overhauls? 10:48:44 hm, that might be fine too 10:48:53 Wensley: yes! 10:48:55 Almost done =) 10:48:59 oh man 10:49:06 I will have to hurry with my sif overhaul then :) 10:49:12 because I think you guys are taking my ideas :P 10:49:17 do you think a queue would be better than just randomly rolling each time for a spell that fits the criteria, then? (and excluding rejected spells for a while) 10:49:51 generating a queue seems like it might be tricky, seeing as piety and spell success will be changing a lot 10:50:29 Wensley: check MarvinPA's pastebin ten minutes ago 10:50:37 will do 10:50:40 MarvinPA: hm, no idea 10:50:47 yes, you are right 10:51:03 MarvinPA: what do you think about V spells that were in lost books? 10:51:12 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:51:23 hmm... it might be fine to offer them again? 10:51:28 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:51:46 webtiles fixed 10:51:49 since that'd let you use books more as a resource to forget spells 10:51:50 Prost! 10:51:53 Pan Lord named "Ring" has "A piece of jewellery" in his description (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4503) by minstrel 10:52:02 MarvinPA: so Vehumites could be more carefree with forgetting spells. 10:52:26 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 10:52:34 yeah, but they'd be doing it by using up consumables 10:52:42 okay 10:52:56 and it'd encourage you to try out something vehumet offers you that you might not have otherwise memorised, hopefully 10:53:09 btw, whoever is interested in traps: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:misc:traps 10:53:45 What about the idea that V likes forgetting from book destruction? Too far off? 10:54:28 hmm, not sure 10:54:32 (Thematically, he sees himself as your teacher. Silly books only disturb the precious teacher-student relation.) 10:55:24 * dtsund buys some duplicate books for a grand ol' memorize-forget session 10:56:21 i think generally, i already prefer to forget spells using books over scrolls (assuming the book doesn't have anything else i want in it), since that saves the scrolls which work on anything 10:56:40 MarvinPA: it matters very little, the question is only about flava 10:56:40 dpeg: also, V likes destroying things in general 10:56:51 mumra: yes, that's why I brought it up 10:57:28 and you shouldn't be able to gain piety by just memorising a spell you don't want anyway and then forgetting it from the book 10:58:02 MarvinPA: you'd lose piety by forgetting a spell via scroll :) 10:58:09 but that's too minor to discuss 10:58:19 gift timeout and costs are more important: 10:58:19 yeah, maybe not worth worrying about for the moment 10:58:39 should rejecting an offer have any effect? 10:59:13 probably on timeout, but what about pietyß 11:00:22 hm, a piety hit might be a bit harsh 11:00:41 probably just a higher timeout would be fine? 11:00:44 ok, but same timeout as if the spell was accepted? 11:00:47 oh, or that 11:02:07 ok, so timeout increases with level -- should it also depend on rarity? on number of spells offered so far? 11:02:27 There could be a flurry of offers early on, which slows down as you progress. 11:02:52 Wensley: still reading the pastebin? :P Btw, your thread finally sees use! 11:03:33 oh yes? 11:03:38 maybe the timeout could increase with total number of spells offered too, yeah 11:03:43 Wensley: we're waiting for your outcry :) 11:04:04 MarvinPA: then we only need piety costs for accepted spells and we're done! 11:05:03 MarvinPA: you're a much better player than me. I read often that V > S. Is this true? If so, we have some leeway in nerfing. 11:05:48 hmm... personally i enjoy vehumet a lot more than sif, but i think in terms of power they're probably fairly even? both have plenty in their favour at least, and other players much prefer sif over veh 11:06:03 oh, that's the best case 11:06:11 indeed :) 11:06:23 V is clearly cooler than S... I mean librarian vs LET IT END IN HELLFIRE 11:06:44 Both my son and my daughter would know who to choose. 11:06:47 whenever someone asks what god to choose on a conjurer in ##crawl there's a fairly good chance of one person saying "definitely sif!" and another saying "definitely vehumet!", at least :P 11:07:04 Vehumet versus Sif is like sorcerer versus wizard in D&D, almost exactly 11:07:11 raw magical power against versatility 11:07:16 (even for much the same reasons!) 11:07:17 urks 11:07:42 * dpeg feels constrained in a cage made from D&D and Tolkien. 11:08:03 heh 11:08:51 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:09:30 i never choose sif any more (i started stating the reasons in the fire magic thread) 11:09:46 basically, sif offers extremely little that you can't get by some other means 11:09:48 sif's big advantage is making games less variable 11:09:56 oh also, should the very first gift offered be guaranteed to be a level 1 spell? 11:10:08 ais523: but that's kind of boring, which is actually another argument i have against sif :P 11:10:11 which many players find preferable to a greater advantage that's also more random 11:10:12 MarvinPA: yes, sounds good, for progression reasons alone 11:10:36 or maybe only guaranteed to be level 1 if you don't currently know any conjurations? 11:10:39 mumra: yes, Sif is boring, but that could be changed. 11:10:45 i mostly go sif, i go veh if i'm a crappy race and i'll be conjuring a lot 11:10:56 MarvinPA: there are so many level 1 conjurations, can start with one. 11:11:00 MarvinPA: why not only guaranteed to be level 1 if you don't currently know any hexes? 11:11:13 hexes? 11:11:14 singling out a spell school seems rather unSifish 11:11:20 huh? 11:11:24 We're doing V! 11:11:24 oh, we're talking veh at the moment :P 11:11:29 oh, right 11:12:11 but yeah, i can imagine not minding being offered freeze or sting or shock or sandblast as a first gift anyway, even on someone who already has conj spells 11:12:36 Wensley is concerned about Sif... rightly so, but I think (and said) that spell gifts, as opposed to book gifts, fit V better than S. For one, V's book list is very short, he gains appeal from having a much longer period of spell gift offers. Second, Sif's spell list is endless, spell gifts make it even longer to get what you want. 11:13:08 MarvinPA: If you want to let it end in hellfire, you should accept to start with a sting. 11:13:20 yep, got to start somewhere! 11:13:32 still need piety costs! 11:14:04 hm, wouldn't that be fulfilled by just setting the gift timeout appropriately? 11:14:11 as opposed to actually reducing piety when you accept 11:14:28 not sure... I'd think that getting a level 9 spell should really affect your piety 11:14:32 dpeg: I have a very detailed proposal for sif that I've been crafting, I'll write it up for you today 11:14:43 Wensley: does it involve spell gifts still? 11:14:53 I'll read it in any case, of course. 11:14:57 dpeg: ...sort of, but not in the same way :) 11:15:01 good! 11:15:17 I think it's very flavourful and unique, and I hope it will get some support 11:15:19 ah, maybe just a piety cost at higher levels i guess? 11:15:24 sure 11:15:32 piety cost = level? 11:15:56 dpeg: just finished reading the implementables thread, and I'm not sure why you seem to think I would raise an outcry :P 11:15:56 that could work 11:15:57 piety is cheap with V, rightß 11:16:04 yeah, nothing else to use it on 11:16:21 would just serve to slow your piety-gaining progress a little as you get the gifts, which is probably fine 11:16:40 perhaps even more expensive, then... wouldn't it be cool if you get your new Machine Gun From Hell, but have to work up from **** again? 11:17:01 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 11:17:58 hmm... reasonably high piety costs for the very high level spells could work, but probably vehumet should also accept demon kills? 11:18:13 dpeg: I find I'm often reluctant to use god powers because I can't work out what effect the piety cost would have on the game 11:18:20 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 11:18:28 MarvinPA: this is your choice -- I am not an endgamer 11:18:30 for experienced players, I assume they already know, but in my case, I have no idea what I'm giving up to use the ability 11:18:32 he doesn't do currently, so there's no piety gain in the extended endgame (but it's not an issue because piety decay is slow) 11:18:45 ais523: that's fine, but V has no active powers :) 11:19:00 well, yes 11:19:09 if you're thinking about adding one, though, the same issue will apply to V 11:19:31 MarvinPA: it is a flavour and power question... I have to leave that to you. Sounds a little surprising that the god of destruction is picky about demon kills. 11:19:39 I find I mostly have it with Makhleb and Trog, where I have no idea, say, how many demons I can summon, there isn't a "demons remaining" meter anywhere 11:19:40 yeah 11:20:04 i suppose with the current summoning theme (if you can call it that), he expects you to have demon allies 11:20:05 dpeg: didn't V used to be about summoning too, but that was changed? I can understand why a summon god wouldn't like demon kills 11:20:10 ais523: yes, we've thought about indicating piety costs. But it's not clear how... if a good idea comes up, we'd probably use it. 11:20:25 ais523: that's about to change 11:20:38 dpeg: how many times you could use the ability in a row before you lose it due to lack of piety 11:20:55 Wensley: something occurred to me (maybe you already thought of it) ... what if you have to find books *for Sif* to gain piety ? 11:20:59 ais523: or before you lose your top piety * 11:21:12 mumra: and dedicate them to her library? 11:21:14 yep, that could be relevant in an ability that triggers below six-stars 11:21:24 mumra: yes, that's part of my proposal, you can gain piety by donating books to sif :P 11:21:27 dpeg: yeah; the more books you find, the more additional spells are available from a library 11:21:27 in fact, a second notice for piety breakpoints could help to avoid Beogh suicides, hilarious though they are 11:22:03 presumably, then, Sif would loan books rather than gift them, and you'd sacrifice them back to her once you'd read them? 11:22:06 that'd avoid the Sif-stash problem 11:22:09 Wensley: spooky :) i just thought of it, and when you said it "sort of" involves gifts, i wondered if that was what you meant! 11:22:17 MarvinPA: I am not sure if there ever was a strong link between V and the hells apart from the Hellfire... what do you think? 11:22:36 mumra: it is a natural idea :) 11:22:57 ais523: there's a proposal i read elsewhere that sif has an ability which gives you a menu of spells you can learn without books 11:23:21 yeah, i think accepting demon kills makes sense, he can be happy with you blowing them up just the same as anything else 11:23:41 MarvinPA: fine with me. 11:24:00 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:24:01 dpeg: it does make a lot more sense than being given books (since i can usually find 99% of spells anyway; and there's nothing more annoying that finally being gifted the spell you need, only to find it lying on the floor a minute later) 11:25:02 hm, so how much piety should learning a level 9 spell take? 35 is the most any ability takes, i think (self-banishment) 11:26:10 MarvinPA: can you list the piety breakpoints? 11:26:48 -!- ais523_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:26:59 mumra: jpeg came up with the library idea, and I think it's a good one. 11:27:12 looks like 30, 50, 75, 100, 120, 160 11:27:38 -!- ais523 has quit [Disconnected by services] 11:27:40 -!- ais523_ is now known as ais523 11:27:40 dpeg: ah, possibly i already read it somewhere then! 11:28:28 Thank you. What about level^2/3 or so? 11:28:40 i think it sounds a lot more fun, books become a resource you appreciate finding, which certainly should be the case if you worship a librarian 11:29:02 I think it is still fine if Sif gifts randart books "Sif's foo..." 11:29:33 dpeg: would be nice if Sif had some rare and interesting versions of spells you can't get otherwise 11:29:40 no 11:29:45 that way lies madness 11:29:49 ok :) 11:30:09 we have our hands full trying to balance/diversify the normal spells 11:30:37 sif could gift a version of iood that doesn't suffer from that "scribing error" ;) 11:30:44 hehe :) 11:30:45 Wensley: that was one i was thinking of 11:30:57 "Iskenderun's Original Orb Of Destruction" (ioood) 11:31:27 It's such a good spell, an OOD trap will rock so hard. 11:31:29 Iskenderun's Original Orb Of Omega Ultimate Super Destruction. 11:31:40 MarvinPA: shocked by quadratic growth? 11:31:55 dpeg: looks good :) 11:31:56 dpeg: OOD trap is pretty easy to implement 11:32:06 give it to us! 11:32:10 dpeg: it's pretty much identical to my current boulder trap code 11:32:14 mumra: single use, or more? 11:32:18 dpeg: could be either 11:32:22 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 11:32:27 dpeg: you can choose whether to destroy the trap in LUA 11:32:32 MarvinPA: I think that we're finished then... up to some pesky details perhaps. 11:32:36 oh, I thought you meant an out-of-depth trap 11:32:40 that'd be pretty easy to code too 11:32:42 no, IOOD 11:32:50 but possibly not too noticeable 11:33:28 ais523: summoning traps should already be coming; could have a certain chance of out-of-depth 11:33:52 dpeg: what about slightly nerfing some existing spells, and have sif gift you the un-nerfed versions ? 11:34:05 do they also blind the player? and have a small chance of doing something entirely different instead (typically but not always a flavour message)? 11:34:13 hmm, Xom traps could be fun 11:34:14 i promise i won't mention that again, anyway ;) 11:34:44 mumra: an insane amount of work, and it'll cause grief, tears, bloodshed, murder, treason and arson. 11:35:16 dpeg: i realised that after i wrote it; which is why i won't ever mention it again :) 11:35:24 updated veh stuff: http://pastebin.com/gZY9N68Z 11:35:34 The local summon trap is only interesting if the summoned guys are above the average threat level. 11:35:42 dpeg: or if there are lots of them at once 11:35:43 ais523: LUA traps are implemented as vaults; so you can always have ones with very low CHANCE: that are extremely nasty 11:35:49 NetHack surrounds the player with summons 11:35:54 but they're the same as the local wildlife 11:37:09 As opposed to global summon traps which place monsters all over the map (and where the player might not even know what's going on), can use jellies or eyes or any other popular monster for that 11:37:51 MarvinPA: spot on! Would you mention the idea of disapproving of amnesia scrolls? Vehumet does not have so terribly much flavour... that's one attempt to inject a little. 11:38:56 I still want to salvage the previous vehumet idea of making monsters explode on death 11:39:01 Apart from that, it's good to go (feel free to ignore the amnesia bit if you don't like it). Oh, add piety for killing demons. 11:39:03 maybe I just enjoy monsters exploding too much 11:39:07 (excited for new AM!) 11:39:11 yup, mentioned piety for demons at the top 11:39:16 ah, sorry 11:39:23 true 11:39:35 Lugonu could use demon kills acceptance 11:39:53 st__: Lugonu will be a completely different God once wraths have been overhauled 11:39:54 since she actually a lot of abilitiest you want to use endgame 11:40:10 yes, monsters exploding is a great ability for V, but I think we should restrict to the gifts right here 11:40:18 nobody is saying that V is finished after that 11:40:24 dpeg: fun monster from Pokémon Mystery Dungeon (actually, several monsters have the ability): every time it hits the player, it summons a depth-appropriate monster to a random square on the current level (with a message explaining that it's done so) 11:40:37 farming them isn't really viable due to the way the game works, or at least is very risky 11:40:46 especially as the monsters in question generally have defensive attacks too 11:40:47 itneresting 11:41:17 Erik once wrote me a list of really wacky Shiren monsters... ours are so lackluster, lame and cliche by comparison. I hope we can make up a little in the god department. 11:41:34 the summoned monsters will often find you while you're still trying to fight the original monster and trap you in a corridor 11:41:42 hm, letting lugonu gain piety from demon kills might still be a nice thing to do in the meantime, though? 11:41:44 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 11:42:11 i liked the idea of gaining piety for banishing stuff, too (which i think was part of the proposed overhaul anyway?) 11:42:52 MarvinPA: yes 11:43:10 I don't care about the current Lugonu, I want altar desecration already. 11:43:44 heh, yeah 11:44:03 I agree that the current lugonu could still use some work, but I feel like, relative to all the other gods, lugonu is the most solid 11:44:14 I kept putting "god wrath" on agenda lists, but I guess my very own proposal was just not good (read: concise) enough. 11:44:52 Wensley: Lucy's good, but what about Elyvilon or Trog? 11:45:00 oh wait, ely is good too :) 11:45:16 trog is... okay. I feel like book burning could use a buff 11:45:40 mostly I am jaded from splatting so many trog characters over the past two tournaments :P 11:46:31 book burning is good... burn Annihilations at some time and marvel at how long it burns :) 11:46:37 dpeg: I really like your suggested ely improvements, and I showed them to the most fervent elyvilon fan in ##crawl and he/she seems to like them as well 11:47:28 <@dpeg> The local summon trap is only interesting if the summoned guys are above the average threat level. 11:47:37 just be careful with this; tome has these and they can be completely ridiculous 11:47:40 sometimes 3 monsters, sometimes 30+ 11:47:57 BEES 11:48:11 no... 30+ high level monsters :| 11:48:13 Wensley: who is (s)he? 11:48:19 Elynae 11:48:30 ah, I recall 11:48:41 Wensley: the nick is a hint :) 11:48:50 yes :P 11:49:01 dpeg: have we considered, for wraths, making multiple tiers of wrath effects? 11:49:14 I'll ask dolorous if he wants to tackle Ely. If he says no, I'll turn into pieces and Implementable it. 11:49:24 i think that would help a lot - some types of effects are just inherently far more or less powerful and are hard to scale 11:49:25 Eronarn: yes, it should be gradual. 11:49:51 Eronarn: of course (re summon traps). We just don't want a summon trap on D:15 to spawn yet another ogre band. 11:50:59 dpeg: well, an ogre band summoned around the player could be interesting for spellcasters 11:52:06 i like the idea of a trap where you step on it and suddenly constructs spring out of the ground around you 11:52:18 yes, all of this is possible 11:53:37 I like the idea that the player does not even know he's triggered something. 11:54:53 ha, a boulder trap in a hallway. "You hear a distant rumbling" 11:55:05 Wensley: did you copy the message from NetHack deliberately? 11:55:09 what 11:55:16 oh my god, are you serious :| 11:55:16 (rolling boulder trap out of sight, in NetHack) 11:55:27 let me wiztest to make sure 11:55:39 wait, I'll read the code, that situation's hard to reproduce deliberaetly 11:55:41 I have played nethack once in my life, I don't think I ever got off the first floor :) 11:55:58 there were no downward staircases! 11:56:10 oh, it's "You hear a rumbling in the distance." 11:56:15 not /quite/ the same ;) 11:57:09 still, similarity of messages between roguelikes is good as it helps unspoiled players (or at least, players spoiled on one of them) identify what's happening 11:57:20 like "You feel someone helping you" for a curse removal (same in NetHack and Crawl) 11:59:11 okay, just asked dolorous formally if he'd like to tackle ely 12:00:17 ais523: but *who* is helping? The message should be: "You feel Ashenzari starting at you intently until you can take it no more." 12:00:42 heh 12:01:37 *staring 12:02:40 and just when you can't take it any more, Ashenzari looks away? 12:02:49 it's not like you have eye contact with him/her 12:04:10 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 12:08:55 Thought I'd try doing all the inventory variations, not only "winged helmet". 12:09:05 Been working on the base for the "spiked helmet". 12:09:05 http://imgur.com/WLYlU 12:09:55 They will all be based on the current player tile graphic. 12:10:32 -!- cx1213 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:13:30 dpeg: http://pastebin.com/P6m10bQF 12:13:37 (and anyone who's interested in trap vaults) 12:13:42 disclaimer: i haven't tested it 12:13:49 but it should work 12:14:16 orb spawns at A and is targetted at B 12:14:17 -!- Twilight-1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:15:48 ais523: the big difference between crawl and nethack boulders, is that in crawl they're alive :) 12:17:07 -!- Twilight has joined ##crawl-dev 12:17:32 -!- Twilight is now known as Guest54978 12:18:07 mumra: you're sure about the corridor? 12:18:16 dpeg: what do you mean ? 12:18:23 dpeg: you mean so it won't hit the walls? 12:18:26 yes 12:18:44 -!- Garhauk has joined ##crawl-dev 12:18:47 mumra: also, great idea, but perhaps there should be a statue at the orb's origin? An OOD coming out of nowhere might look odd. 12:19:31 part of the issue with that is that statues mean "vault" to most players, and it'd be spoily 12:19:37 unless the OOD's fired as soon as the statue comes within LOS 12:19:48 The idea of an orb of destruction trap terrifies me. 12:19:48 dpeg: corridor will be perfectly fine. normally when IOOD is cast (cast_iood) there's a random fuzz in the direction. but because i'm initialising vx/vy in the LUA, it's precisely accurate 12:20:20 dpeg: it shouldn't veer or anything because it has no target 12:20:41 so it can be dodged just by sidestepping? 12:20:56 ais523: no, a grate gets in the way of that, and the trap is in a acorridor 12:21:13 so the only thing you can do about it is, what, blink? 12:21:17 mumra: but isn't that too deterministic? 12:21:29 dpeg: could be good to have a statue visible; that map is just an example of how it would work, really. or the orb could come from outside of LOS 12:21:54 dpeg: or you could just have "an orb or energy materialises out of thin air!" 12:22:23 or that, just some rationalisation would be nice 12:22:42 dpeg: well, perhaps deterministic; could add in some randomness to give the player a chance 12:22:59 hm, oods are kinda more fun out in the open anyway (and it'd be a bit fairer) 12:23:03 ais523: you can outrun it if you're fast enough. or cast summons to get in the way. or block it with a shield. 12:23:20 so what's the grate for? 12:23:24 mumra: in some sense, the OOD trap is right now just like a normal weapon trap: you either die or rest it off. So we need to do something a bit better. What about open space and lots of OODs coming at you? 12:23:29 MarvinPA: still around? 12:23:32 ais523: to stop you being able to trivially sidestep it 12:23:37 indeed! 12:23:53 dpeg: i have a few ideas about vaults like that (making a similar one already with boulders) 12:24:03 -!- ryzol has joined ##crawl-dev 12:24:07 mumra: I'm having trouble visualising where the grate should be placed 12:24:13 MarvinPA: what to do with the Vehumet stuff? Park it somewhere, or advertise it? 12:24:18 ais523: grate is placed on the comma 12:24:28 hmm, i could type it up as an implementable? 12:24:41 oh, I see 12:24:50 dpeg: it's not exactly like a weapon trap, since you might have a number of options to avoid it (burn a scroll, quaff a potion and run, etc.) 12:25:09 MarvinPA: would be awesome! 12:25:16 mumra: that trap seems to punish autoexplore 12:25:30 mumra: I know, but in total it is similar: most likely, you die or rest it away. 12:25:38 people who knew about the arrangement existing could notice the two-square stub corridor 12:25:43 and take steps to prevent IOOD trap 12:26:04 ais523: all traps punish autoexplore. but there's nothing remarkable about the corridor, the dungeon can randomly generate ones exactly like that 12:26:17 mumra: but it doesn't generate enough that you can't check them all 12:26:28 e.g. with dig/melt rock on a square next to the one you entered via 12:26:39 what happens if the grate spawns on a monster, btw? 12:27:04 ais523: hmm, well i could easily modify it to be just a straight section of corridor. anyway, like i said: it's just an example 12:27:26 ais523: i posted it to show the spawning function, and to show how you define a map with A and B to set the spawn pos and target 12:27:33 or if it spawns on a dropped Orb of Zot? 12:27:44 ais523: you are free to make much more interesting vaults with it if you like :) 12:28:31 ais523: the LUA has a check for whether there's anything in that square. not 100% sure what would happen to items; they might get pushed away. needs some testing. in any case, the grate code i copied from the other grate trap example that someone else wrote 12:29:05 -!- edlothiol has quit [Quit: edlothiol] 12:29:23 I'm vaguely reminded of Kingdom of Loathing, where whenever the devs accidentally introduce a way to make the game unwinnable, someone will deliberately set it off 12:29:34 (partly, just for the joy of seeing if they thought of it) 12:30:01 Seems like contrast (especially on the horns) need to be lowered: 12:30:03 http://imgur.com/Hr0Tp 12:30:38 But is this something in the right direction? (spiked helmet inventory tile) 12:31:01 dpeg: anyway, i have a few creative ideas for vaults using orbs; that corridor certainly shouldn't be used 12:31:06 I hope there are tiles players around (I am not). If not, just upload on Mantis and wait for comments. 12:31:10 mumra: okay! 12:31:56 dpeg: hmm, altho - what if there was a teleport trap one or two squares away from the pressure plate - so once you've triggered the orb you have the choice to teleport somewhere random 12:32:13 Pingas: I think it looks good, but the black outline of the spikes could be made less obvious 12:33:27 Wensley: Agreed - the horns are far from done, and that is definitely something I will fix. 12:33:33 As well as the overall contrast. 12:33:51 mumra: perhaps, yes 12:34:12 But if people like unique inventory tiles for the helmet variations, maybe I'll do plumed, horned and winged as well. 12:34:25 Oh, and visored. 12:36:12 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:44:31 -!- mumra has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:54:39 -!- GreatZebu has joined ##crawl-dev 12:57:18 -!- mumra has joined ##crawl-dev 12:58:54 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:02:36 Vehumet: spell gifting instead of book gifting (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4504) by MarvinPA 13:04:30 MarvinPA: <3 13:04:34 :) 13:05:09 -!- mumra has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:05:28 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 13:08:54 -!- tester8372 has quit [Quit: Page closed] 13:16:14 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 13:19:57 so, what to do now without any resist poison? 13:22:28 @whereis napkin 13:22:28 Napkin the Covert (L14 KoGl), a worshipper of Kikubaaqudgha, is currently on Lair:1 after 36103 turns. 13:23:06 well, no need to worry about rPois yet... descend in D until you find the vaults entrance at least 13:23:31 finished lair, shoals is full of sea snakes, snake is out of the question either 13:23:53 I'd never go into shoals or snake that early anyway 13:24:20 :-O 13:24:43 I lost my best char ever to Mennas... 13:24:43 vaults is so much more difficult than snake.. if you have rP 13:25:08 i doubt i can reach it.. but let's see 13:25:19 yeah, I do snake:1-4 before vaults if I have rPois... but I find the vaults entrance first 13:28:29 -!- GreatZebu has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:32:39 paplaukes (L10 DsAr) ASSERT(zombie_class_size(cs) == Z_NOZOMBIE || zombie_class_size(cs) == mons_zombie_size(base)) in 'mon-place.cc' at line 2292 failed. (D:6) 13:36:45 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:37:14 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 13:49:04 -!- Wensley_ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:49:31 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:49:32 -!- Wensley_ is now known as Wensley 13:53:54 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:11:16 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 14:16:43 -!- hoody__ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:17:06 -!- GreatZebu has joined ##crawl-dev 14:17:10 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:21:08 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 14:21:37 !lm * crash -log 14:21:38 1550. paplaukes, XL10 DsAr, T:5052 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/paplaukes/crash-paplaukes-20110904-183234.txt 14:21:55 -!- hoody_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:43:57 Wensley: that "scribing error" is really because letting players nuke things out of LOS would be abusable -- the AI currently can't cope with it, and if there's water/lava or immobile monsters involved, it's not even the lack of intelligence 14:44:53 on the other hand, to have real fun dodging orbs they can't disappear in three turns... 14:45:59 ie, I'm papering over an inconsistency between players and monsters in a way that's not totally unthematic 14:46:32 Napkin: a very, very minor thing: on CDO: "1) Go to Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup 0.9.0" 14:46:42 roger 14:46:53 I guess it could be better to say just "0.8", "0.9" 14:46:57 kilobyte: I see :) 14:49:41 done 14:49:47 Napkin: most of the time, it's not even 0.X.Y but 0.X.Y-17, with fixes from git applied that were not yet released 14:53:27 kilobyte: you should be informed: I set up proposals for Ely (wiki), traps (wiki) and, with Marvin, Vehumet spell gifts (Mantis). I think they're all reasonable, but I have to. Comment if you think something is out of place (the traps one is very general, this is not even near Implementables territory). 14:55:55 -!- syllogism has quit [] 14:56:00 And for Ely, I've asked dolorous if he'd be up for coding it. It seemed more like fixing/polishing to me (the most radical thing is a Destroy Weapon ability.) 14:58:33 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:58:55 I'll be absent, at least from ##crawl-dev, for two weeks. You'll catch me via email, though. 14:59:58 and what i really didn't miss much when playing all those other roguelikes: corrosion! 15:00:38 Erst fremdgehen und dann auch noch nörgeln! 15:00:59 Jawohl! 15:01:01 ;> 15:01:23 -1 boots of running *heul* 15:03:28 Napkin: it did contain a choice. 15:03:51 huh? 15:04:08 Napkin: who corroded the boots? 15:04:46 there are only 3 stairs down, no other branch available, have to face those stupid brown ugly things 15:06:13 If you knew they were there, you could have taken them off. 15:09:42 jo, demnächst nur noch nackt ;) 15:09:55 -!- Galefury has joined ##crawl-dev 15:11:58 hi 15:12:11 hi 15:14:54 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:15:07 MarvinPA_: we got some feedback 15:15:34 btw, is Shroud of Golubria so strong, that it needed a random turn-off function? 15:15:56 cannot comment on that 15:17:09 Napkin: the idea was to make it lose its utility by mid-game 15:17:21 we already have enough low level no brainer buffs 15:17:55 it doesn't actually lose its utility enough IMO, I'll probably tweak it a bit at some point 15:18:36 hehe 15:18:57 I think other spells should learn from SoG, not the other way around. 15:19:03 Its design is very good. 15:19:03 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:19:25 when you guys are done, it'll be removed in version++ because it became too unreliable to use at all ;) 15:19:56 by the way, shroud is quite strong against melee-based item destruction and corrosion 15:20:02 i.e. ugly things 15:20:14 yeah, didn't help 15:20:14 Napkin: have more faith in your leaders :P 15:21:28 how high is the chance again to find boots of running, then meet the first ugly brown thing, which corrodes exactly the most precious part of armoury, even with shroud on - in a game with _1_ enchant armour in total for a XL16 char? 15:21:32 riiiiight 15:21:55 crawl is way too easy! 15:22:19 anyway, the -1 is not a big deal. It doesn't make you slower :P 15:22:58 oh, fits well to the -1 artefact helm of relec str+3, no doubt 15:23:42 it's a typical Napkin reaction -- exasperate over a minute detail :) Be happy that you have running! 15:24:34 ;-P 15:25:49 -!- hoody_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:27:38 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:30:04 -!- hoody_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:32:01 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:41:41 Napkin: actually, shroud is always semi-reliable: the exact amount of hp saved is random, but you'll save 11 on the average 15:42:02 and with more power it will actually last more than a couple of turns 15:42:10 yeah, but it turns off in the middle of a turn 15:42:19 so does dodging 15:42:22 kilobyte: Napkin is highly afraid we'll nerf the shroud tomorrow, don't frighten him further :) 15:42:43 nah, i'm just complaining about more randomness and unreliable stuff 15:42:56 Napkin: yes, that's a common subject for you 15:43:03 You should play strategy games :P 15:43:35 crawl used to be quite strategic ;-P 15:43:41 hey! 15:44:24 It was a lot more random in the past, but our players have grown quite wimpy over the years, we've pampered them too much. 15:44:37 pfff 15:44:44 lol 15:46:20 Napkin: Seriously, the level of play is much, much better than it used to be in non-online days. This inevitably comes with more focus on what's broken, random, etc. 15:46:24 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:47:05 true, true 15:48:20 having randomized spells is great because some people love them 15:48:47 Eronarn: context? 15:48:56 but they're bad if they're way better than more guarnateed spells on average, because some people *hate* randomized effects like that 15:49:03 * dpeg suspects irony, but being a German, cannot see it. 15:49:22 dpeg's racial irony apt is -2 15:49:33 Wensley: and my personal modifier is another -3 15:49:46 dpeg: just noting that they are very polarizeed effects 15:49:48 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 15:50:29 i really hope kiku becomes more interesting soon again 15:50:35 Eronarn: I agree. Also, it is not true that randomness is crucial for everything... but what is true is that random content makes roguelikes work. That's a basic tenet one has to understand and accept. 15:50:40 what made kiku less interesting 15:50:42 Napkin: what did we change? 15:50:58 what's the point of place-population.lua? To test and debug monster generation? 15:50:59 everything's passive now 15:51:16 dpeg: 'has to'? cult, cult! :) 15:51:17 Napkin: when was it different? I cannot recall. 15:51:47 Eronarn: sure, but even if you want to deviate (which is possible in the genre) you should really understand it :) 15:51:49 is "receive corpses" still being used by anyone? previously it gave too many, now it gives too few too bother 15:51:54 galehar: I have no idea. 15:52:07 Updated draft on the inventory tile for spiked helmets. 15:52:08 http://i.imgur.com/z1EzZ.png 15:52:09 "torment" is hurts yourself more than it's useful.. 15:52:18 torment has always done that 15:52:29 Napkin: we have nerfed the torment effect on the player 15:52:41 (rN helps a little, didn't used to do that a couple versions ago) 15:52:49 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 15:53:01 Lowered contrast, slightly duller spikes and fixed some shape issues. 15:53:21 40% life loss instead of 50% 15:53:25 yes 15:53:36 or maybe 35% with rN+++ 15:53:58 10% per rN, i think 15:54:08 5% 15:54:14 yes 15:54:19 hence 35% 15:54:30 so.. when do you use it? 15:54:43 people use it against the royal jelly 15:54:45 napkin: receive corpses got buffed again in 0.9 and is quite strong now 15:55:03 Pingas: I think for consistency you could perhaps leave the black outline only on the border of the helmet, where it becomes transparent 15:55:08 it might look a lot better that way 15:55:54 MarvinPA_: what do you think of evilmike's FE book? (see book of flame thread) 15:56:02 omg, true, elliptic 15:56:15 5 corpses with necromancy at 12 15:56:21 \o/ 15:56:35 cherish the corpse... 15:56:52 Wensley: Good point. Will look into how to better seperate the spikes. 15:57:01 Dark gray didn't fare well, nor dark beige. 15:57:36 about the torment invokation, I mainly just use it on mennas 15:57:52 how does that help? 15:58:06 as the only source of damage? 15:58:14 the idea is that you make a lot of zombies or haunt-summons and then torment mennas 3-4 times 15:58:42 the zombies aren't very good against him, but they do do some damage and keep him away from you :) 15:59:33 so.. 3-4 times.. that means you have like... 10hp left? 16:00:03 no, kiku gives torment protection 16:00:15 yeah, if you are lucky 16:00:18 hehe 16:00:29 your HP might be low, but that's why the summons are keeping mennas away from you :) 16:00:43 trust me, it works pretty well 16:01:05 surely, i am never going to try 16:01:34 Napkin: but you miss out on potential this way 16:02:28 i prefer to try to stay alive, especially because when i should meet mennas, i'm high in level, which doesn't happen often 16:03:13 well, nothing wrong with avoiding fighting mennas also :) 16:03:23 !won elliptic 16:03:24 elliptic has won 277 times in 1149 games (24.11%): 15xSpEn 5xDDCK 3xDrIE 2xCeHe 2xDDBe 2xDDCr 2xDDEE 2xDECj 2xDSAs 2xDSBe 2xDSCr 2xDSIE 2xDSVM 2xDrAE 2xGhMo 2xHEHe 2xHEIE 2xHaSu 2xKeIE 2xKoFE 2xMDFi 2xMfCr 2xMfNe 2xMiBe 2xMiFi 2xMuHu 2xNaEn 2xNaHe 2xNaIE 2xNaWn 2xSEPr 2xTrWr 2xVpSu 1xCeAr 1xCeDK 1xCeGl 1xCeRe 1xCeSt 1xCeWn 1xCeWr 1xDDAE 1xDDAK 1xDDAM 1xDDDK 1xDDEn 1xDDMo 1xDDNe 1xDDRe 1xDDTm 1xDEA... 16:03:29 !won Napkin 16:03:29 Napkin has won 5 times in 1010 games (0.50%): 1xHEFE 1xKoAs 1xKoHe 1xMDFi 1xTrBe 16:03:46 slight a difference in willingness to play risky that late in game.. 16:05:41 so.. when you say "it works works most of the time" - that translates to "run" for me ;) 16:06:16 I didn't actually say that... it has worked every time for me ;) 16:07:02 -!- hoody_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:07:10 however, "run" is always a good strategy in crawl :) 16:07:25 -!- GreatZebu has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:07:46 -!- GreatZebu has joined ##crawl-dev 16:08:42 ??advice 16:08:42 advice[1/13]: RUN 16:08:44 i just hope there won't be more uniques like that, which are only meant to be beaten by the pr0s.. because running is quite boring 16:09:52 Napkin: This is such a fatalist point of view. 16:10:12 I've died to Nikola so often, but at some point, it got better. 16:10:54 MarvinPA_: I just see you already replied to evilmike's FE book. Sorry! 16:11:01 people complained that Ignacio is just a yet another tormenter in Pan, making the fight with him too random: losing a hundred hp to melee works differently whether you just got tormented or not. 16:11:24 fortunately with speed 40 Napkin can't run 16:12:10 screw you :-P 16:12:22 still, 4:66 kill stats make me reluctant to nerf him 16:12:35 Napkin: teleport of course 16:12:40 I don't think Napkin will visit soon with his cowardly mindset :) 16:12:48 lol 16:12:51 kilobyte: if ignacio generates on a pan level and then you leave the level, is he gone for that game? 16:12:52 +Pan 16:13:03 elliptic: currently yes. Should we change that? 16:13:14 not if you have the foresight to abyss him 16:13:21 Wensley: <3 16:13:57 kilobyte: possibly (though if so, he should be rare... no idea how common he is), since it makes diving from level to level an even better strategy 16:14:38 ignacio could hunt the player... after he generates on one level, he generates on all subsequent levels until you kill him 16:14:40 elliptic: should we heed the complaints? If so, I'd remove Torment (leaving Agony), give him a yet another melee attack, and let him spawn again 16:14:46 that seems a little harsh, though 16:14:47 or what Wensley said 16:15:21 if that were the case, though, it should announce when you enter his level 16:15:32 kilobyte: I haven't actually run into him myself (I'm sure diving from level to level without clearing anything contributes) and I haven't paid much attention to the complaints, so no opinion here yet 16:15:41 so that you don't accidentally wind up fighting cerebov and then realize that ignacio's been tailing you this whole time 16:17:05 Ignacio is on my "immediately controlled blink away multiple times list" 16:17:21 yes, this is how I dealt with him on my recent musu 16:17:37 could barely handle normal executioners, let alone one with 200 hp 16:17:39 I don't know why since you were immune to torment 16:17:55 executioners were the hardest thing in pan :P 16:18:03 @??ignacio 16:18:04 Ignacio (131) | Speed: 20 | HD: 18 | Health: 250 | AC/EV: 10/15 | Damage: 30, 15, 15 | Flags: 05demonic, evil, see invisible, !sil | Res: 06magic(216), 05fire, 02cold, 10elec, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 15000 | Sp: agony, pain (d17), haste, torment symbol. 16:18:11 @??executioner 16:18:11 Executioner (151) | Speed: 20 | HD: 12 | Health: 49-86 | AC/EV: 10/15 | Damage: 30, 10, 10 | Flags: 05demonic, evil, see invisible, !sil | Res: 06magic(144), 05fire, 02cold, 10elec, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 2373 | Sp: pain (d14), haste. 16:18:18 oh, output of " has extra empty lines? 16:18:31 however, my strategy of haunting everything probably contributed to my cowardice 16:18:32 he's just one with more hp and torment 16:18:44 everytime I see him he's at the edge of LOS and torments on the first turn, there's no other option at that point 16:18:51 and agony, but you'll have 5683463906890 MR by that time 16:18:55 and a lot more melee damage? 16:19:23 Napkin: I've seen that " bug twice, not sure when that happens 16:19:40 hmm.. 16:20:12 kilobyte: I always have it (playing over standard 80x24 ssh console) 16:20:15 has nothing to do with what amulet/rings i'm wearing 16:20:33 i have it at 102x33 ssh 16:21:09 telnet too - so not connection related 16:22:40 -!- |amethyst has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:29:06 hey... so.. save-games are actually exchangable between webtiles and console? 16:32:48 or was it just random luck that it just worked for my game? ;) 16:33:23 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:34:31 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:38:09 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 16:42:47 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 16:44:01 -!- GreatZebu has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:44:19 -!- GreatZebu has joined ##crawl-dev 16:46:28 -!- MarvinPA_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:47:29 Napkin: there's currently a minor information loss, but yeah 16:47:38 like what? 16:47:45 some vaults will lose custom tiles and revert to regular walls/floor 16:48:09 vaults, that have already been played, right? 16:48:12 and monster memory loses information about enchantments they have, wielded weapons, etc 16:48:31 aha 16:48:36 yeah, any that are on the map when the game is played in console 16:48:45 ic 16:48:48 both losses are minor, though 16:49:03 and that's the same for "ordinary tiles" and webtiles? 16:49:04 the second one is straightforward to fix, just needs some more work 16:49:10 yeah 16:49:34 well, no priority, of course 16:49:50 but would be cool if that would be possible one day 16:50:20 of course.. choosing output module via parameter would even more reduce infrastructure work ;) 16:50:30 monster memory is early on my to-do list 16:50:38 great :) 16:50:48 the first thing, wall tiles, is trickier though 16:51:20 would require adding knowledge about tile flavours to console builds 16:51:47 a complete redraw/recalculation of tiles would not be possible? 16:52:34 no, the data needs to be preserved. When a vault is placed, tile flavours are not stored anywhere else. 16:52:47 oh.. ic 16:52:58 and they are possibly randomized at that moment 16:53:08 and some kind of conversion of save game is not possible? 16:53:21 recalculation monster memory though is a good idea 16:53:52 like.. going through the save, looking at vaults, redrawing them for tiles 16:54:05 something like that 16:54:36 it wouldn't be 100% equal when transfer to and from - but still 16:55:44 -!- hoody_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:55:45 way too much work, and would be fragile. It's so much easier to just sacrifice some memory and store the tile data. 16:56:04 ok, cool 16:56:50 console builds would need the data files that say: this value stands for "wall_crypt_metal" 16:57:04 yes, i understand 16:57:45 but isn't that a good idea in general? sounds like it would make things easier for different output modules 16:59:03 btw, did you get that link i posted? about this cons2tcod tool? 17:00:01 damn buggy, but the very concept is great 17:00:17 hehe 17:00:26 replacing win32 console 17:00:35 galehar: hello! I'd love it if you could add your personal to-do list to the 0.10 planning page, so far I'm the only one who's edited and obviously I really don't have any idea what should be there :P 17:00:46 not sure how generic that code is, but it could be used for any other program too 17:00:59 oh, nice 17:01:03 Wensley: sure, will do 17:01:49 and now i will do as dpeg suggested.. cowardly run to bed :-P 17:01:59 found rPois in vault3! \o/ 17:02:00 o/ 17:02:18 Wensley: octopodes! 17:02:48 Eronarn: they're there, but I wasn't really sure what changes you still had in store :P https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:planning:0.10_plan 17:02:49 Napkin: Nacht! 17:03:04 Wensley: it would be great if we got constriction ready, and gave it to them 17:03:27 Wensley: it is doubtful to add implementables because we never know which will be tackled (and all are considered dev-team approved) 17:03:33 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 17:03:45 * dpeg wants constriction for nagas first. 17:03:53 (because we have so many monster nagas) 17:04:28 right, I've tried to be cautious in adding things to that page, but nobody else seems to want to :P 17:04:41 and I really wanted it to have some kind of relevance to that forum thread :) 17:05:28 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:06:07 Wensley: I think in the past the agenda wiki page gained momentum when release drew nearer 17:06:35 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:06:44 i added some octo notes 17:06:48 cool 17:08:11 don't really want to get involved in anything else though, as much as i'd like to see swarms on that page 17:12:59 -!- SquashMonster has joined ##crawl-dev 17:13:06 added some comments as well 17:13:31 -!- SquashMonster has left ##crawl-dev 17:13:46 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:14:17 -!- Squash_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:20:20 -!- GreatZebu has quit [Read error: No route to host] 17:21:25 -!- GreatZebu has joined ##crawl-dev 17:22:52 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:29:38 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:32:59 -!- hoody_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:33:34 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 17:34:23 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 17:36:56 -!- galehar has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:43:01 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 17:43:11 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: zzz] 18:05:08 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 18:06:38 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:07:11 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:11:27 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:12:03 -!- Squash_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:17:24 -!- elliptic has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:31:04 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 18:45:51 anyone who is interested in dpeg's implementable for automatic annotation of ghosts and uniques: i've uploaded a patch that implements it and i'd appreciate it if you took a look 18:48:37 aabb (L16 TrBe) ERROR in 'mon-movetarget.cc' at line 104: ZotDef: monster it failed to pathfind to (39,52) (the Orb) (D:1 (ZotDef)) 18:52:31 -!- hoody_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:52:51 -!- Wensley has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.17/2009122204]] 18:57:37 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:02:02 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 19:07:17 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:09:03 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 19:11:27 -!- ryzol has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:29:02 -!- Pingas has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:29:21 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 19:36:28 -!- Galefury has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:37:17 -!- hoody_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:38:47 03GreatZebu * ra06cfe0ffc68 10/crawl-ref/source/mac/ (Crawl-Info.plist Makefile.app-bundle): Include executable name in bundle plist and create release target 19:38:58 03kilobyte * rfc370c9eb266 10/crawl-ref/source/files.cc: Don't consider items "lost" when moving between non-LEVEL_DUNGEON levels. 19:38:58 03kilobyte * r3282701d3fdc 10/crawl-ref/source/ (dat/des/builder/uniques.des files.cc): Let Ignacio spawn again if you failed to kill him. 19:42:09 03kilobyte * r72d0b57d271f 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-data.h mon-spll.h): Remove Ignacio's Torment, give him a yet another melee attack. 19:42:38 I was thinking an executioner speed monster with Torment was maybe a little too much. 19:43:02 -!- ryzol has joined ##crawl-dev 19:47:20 with this commit he still spawns only once in ~20 levels, though 19:48:05 Hmm. 19:48:11 I should make MEnkaure faster to compensate! ;) 19:48:25 due: make all mummies movespeed 8, actspeed 10 :) 19:48:31 Eronarn: okay 19:48:40 Eronarn: I waved my magic wand and it happened automatically. tada! 19:48:53 you can commit, i can't :P 19:52:14 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 19:58:57 due: menkaure got made faster already in 0.9 (to compensate for the haste nerf, since he was a bit sad in 0.8) 19:59:45 kilobyte: This is late to the discussion but you already can nuke monsters outside of LoS. I managed to kill Saint Roka this way. I pulled him to the edge of water, flew across to the edge of LoS. I then spammed fireballs at him. The fireballs did damage and created steam clouds which prevented him from attacking me. 20:00:54 hrm, not nice 20:01:21 Firestorm had that as well, not sure if it's completely fixed either 20:01:54 er, wait, it's impossible to do this without clouds 20:02:10 merely being behind a corner won't let fireballs do damage 20:03:55 elliptic: That was a joke, of course :) 20:04:15 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:04:28 kilobyte: Possibly the issue here is to just have the monster retreat, if they are intelligent enough, cannot reach you, and there are harmful clouds in the way and you ahve a ranged spell. 20:04:43 kilobyte: er, solution to the issue. 20:08:27 solution: give roka firestorm 20:10:44 that won't pass dpeg, since priests in D&D have firestorm 20:11:26 -!- GreatZebu has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:11:42 -!- GreatZebu has joined ##crawl-dev 20:24:48 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 20:29:22 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 20:35:26 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 20:40:31 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:41:30 -!- dalaing has joined ##crawl-dev 20:43:04 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 20:49:28 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 20:52:27 -!- Garhauk has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 6.0.1/20110830092941]] 20:54:56 -!- dalaing has left ##crawl-dev 21:00:05 -!- Pacra has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:02:47 -!- ryzol has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:04:46 -!- hoody_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:13:40 Getting to installing DGL now, and I'm a little concerned with the documentation, seeing as how step two is "compile nethack" :P before I start, what crawl-centric changes need to be made to these config files? 21:14:05 gah, that was intended for napkin... not used to this webchat client :P 21:14:38 is webtiles not working? 21:14:38 evilmike: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 21:14:54 !messages 21:14:55 (1/2) Wensley said (10h 26m 55s ago): Catlobe lair ending claims its first victim!! 21:14:57 !messages 21:15:01 (1/1) Elynae said (10h 26m 55s ago): Your lair ending is great! 21:15:59 ...catlobe? 21:16:22 people call catoblepas catlobes for some reason 21:16:35 (mikee cannot spell is the reason) 21:25:28 can't even spell his own name 21:29:09 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:40:41 -!- 15SAA94XI has joined ##crawl-dev 21:42:09 -!- Guest54978 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:45:12 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:58:29 -!- st__ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:59:42 -!- hoody_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:02:48 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 22:09:29 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 22:48:38 !tell edlothiol Would it be possible for webtiles' login cookie to last a lot longer? Seems like I have to log in every day, even when I check the box to stay logged in... 22:48:38 Wensley: OK, I'll let edlothiol know. 22:52:04 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 23:47:58 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 23:55:49 -!- Wensley has quit [Quit: Page closed]