00:06:09 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.9-a1-1310-gda08fa8 (32) 00:37:00 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 00:47:08 -!- Twilight13 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:47:15 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 00:47:30 -!- Twilight13 has joined ##crawl-dev 00:55:23 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:55:28 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 01:16:10 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:28:22 -!- bmh_away is now known as bmh 01:28:23 morning 01:31:45 -!- ixtli has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 01:37:27 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 01:37:45 good morning 01:38:12 so random2(x) is just an int between 0 and x, right? 01:38:35 x-1, I believe 01:39:06 oh 01:39:49 good to know 01:40:16 Wensley: random2 works by doing rejection sampling. 01:40:46 If you ask it for x, it generates a random number up to next power of two greater than or equal to x 01:41:17 I should add sampling from geometric distributions to random.h 01:45:45 Wensley: catoblepas? 01:45:55 yep 01:46:01 I am changing how long their breath sticks around 01:46:10 I haven't encountered one 01:48:05 so far nobody has legitimately died to one, although one person I know of has died to one semi-indirectly 01:49:04 so I am stalking the word "catoblepas" and every time someone queries the bots about them I know that they are fighting one, so I watch to see how they handle it 01:51:16 my observations so far are that the clouds do not stick around long enough, that the catoblepas should not bother fleeing, and that getting hit by the breath should be immediately recognizable 01:52:16 sounds about right 01:53:32 other than that I am actually happy that they are not desperately overpowered, I was most afraid of a dev massively overnerfing them :P 01:58:07 elliptic: do you know which function in mon-util I should add the catoblepas to in order to give it the ranged attack AI, or even what the ranged attack AI would have them do? 01:58:30 no, I've never really looked at that part of the code 01:59:09 probably they shouldn't have the ranged attack AI if that means that they behave like centaurs and such 01:59:20 unless you think that catoblepas have high intelligence 01:59:54 elliptic: I just know that galehar said something about maybe adding them to the list because LOS-blocking might do something, or something something 02:00:17 well, galehar is the AI code expert :) 02:01:04 oh, actually I think they might already qualify, if mons_has_los_ability does what I think it might do 02:01:53 wait, it doesn't 02:08:03 -!- Hehfiel has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:12:42 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:12:49 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: bmh] 02:17:44 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 02:18:27 hi 02:19:19 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 02:19:58 galehar: hello! I was wondering, what would adding the catoblepas to mons_has_ranged_ability do? 02:20:29 actually nothing 02:20:36 haha, okay 02:20:38 They have a ranged spell already 02:20:52 I wasn't sure if fake spells counted as spells 02:21:10 for ranged AI, yes they do 02:21:46 awesome, thanks. now, is there a flag to make things not run away? :P 02:24:55 hmm, or maybe... 02:25:01 not really 02:25:14 Smart monsters, zombified monsters other than spectral things, plants, and nonliving monsters cannot flee. 02:25:34 but we can add one if needed 02:25:39 anything is possible 02:26:01 why? you want catoblepas to not flee? 02:26:17 sort of 02:26:22 chasing slow monsters is just boring 02:27:06 thinking of maybe making them trail petrifying clouds behind them as they move, but I'm not sure that would make them any less boring to chase 02:27:32 -!- hoody_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:27:36 you'd have to come up with a better reason :) 02:28:19 catoblepae are FIERCE WARRIORS is the reason they do not flee :) 02:30:10 in any case, a slow monster that flees at 20% hp is equivalent to the same slow monster with 20% less hp that does not flee 02:30:20 except more boring for the player 03:20:06 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 03:21:42 -!- st__ has joined ##crawl-dev 03:25:01 -!- jarpiain_ has joined ##crawl-dev 03:29:34 -!- jarpiain has quit [*.net *.split] 03:29:34 -!- blackpenguin has quit [*.net *.split] 03:29:35 -!- st_ has quit [*.net *.split] 03:36:03 -!- blackpenguin has joined ##crawl-dev 03:38:11 -!- evilmike has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:43:42 -!- jeanjacques has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:02:50 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:05:00 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 05:06:06 -!- st__ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:16:06 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:17:16 -!- RichardHawk has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:33:41 -!- aapo has joined ##crawl-dev 05:34:33 Hello, I'm trying to compile crawl for ARM-linux+GLES. I got it compiled, but not running, what is status of it, should it work? 05:35:47 version0.9-a1-1292-g2654608, compiled with: make TILES=y GLES=y 05:36:37 settings/tiles_options.txt <- 800x480px resolution 05:36:52 crash on startup: ASSERT(m_handle) in 'tiletex.cc' at line 79 failed. 05:41:16 Example gles1.c (sdl_gles) is working: http://git.maemo.org/git?p=sdlhildon;a=blob_plain;f=sdlgles/test/gles1.c;h=0756be5b8979868a4a9ac4c3d8497e56b18bb276 05:41:41 which is compiled with same flags than crawl (i.e. -lSDL_gles -lEGL -lGLES_CM) 05:55:44 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:56:29 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 05:56:42 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: DCSS Development | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 06:07:48 -!- RichardHawk has joined ##crawl-dev 06:42:34 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 06:44:46 !tell kilobyte There are a few new bugfixes in my webtiles branch. master..webtiles should give you the 6 commits. (btw, thanks for merging webtiles.) 06:44:46 edlothiol: OK, I'll let kilobyte know. 06:45:14 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:10:05 aapo: what machine are you building on? 07:10:45 galehar, I'm targeting on Nokia N900/Maemo5 (debian based linux) 07:12:15 aapo: I tried porting it but hit the limits of my knowledge of GL (and GLES) 07:12:15 kilobyte: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 07:12:22 Hungry kobolds can spawn with knife (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4250) by rriegs 07:12:26 ok, there's no knowledge of that at all, I admit 07:13:36 in a Debian chroot, it mostly works, except for being totally, ridiculously slow, and also having some display corruption 07:14:26 I wonder why a chroot would make it slow? perhaps Mesa's trying to emulate all the graphics in software because it doesn't have access to the hardware? 07:15:55 kilobyte, do you understand my error message, " ASSERT(m_handle) in 'tiletex.cc' at line 79 failed"? What is m_handle and why it fails 'to make it'? 07:19:29 ais523: Debian uses GL, not GLES, and there are no drivers for it on N900 07:19:52 ah, so it is Mesa emulation, trying to run on a phone 07:19:55 no wonder it's slow 07:19:56 the ones on host are limited, buggy and proprietary so you can't really fix them 07:23:00 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:26:17 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 07:29:54 How long is monster berserk from a moth of wrath supposed to last? 07:30:04 I am curious about whether what I saw was a bug 07:35:14 RichardHawk: same as monster berserk from other sources, like a potion 07:36:06 Not to the effect of 50+ turns then, I would think 07:36:22 Because that happened with a shapeshifter 07:36:30 Formchange renews duration? 07:36:33 edlothiol: did you get a chance to handle websockets from Firefox newer than 4? 07:36:44 03flodiebold * r77f4063ea907 10/crawl-ref/source/webserver/static/client.js: WebTiles: Don't even send a UnRemember message without a login token. 07:36:47 03flodiebold * r484b5f2db7f2 10/crawl-ref/source/webserver/server.py: Catch a WebTiles server exception when deselecting "Remember me" with an invalid login token. 07:36:47 03flodiebold * r83c87ecd63d7 10/crawl-ref/source/ (tileweb.cc webserver/static/game/render.js): A hacky way of making plants appear correctly on the webtiles minimap. 07:36:47 03flodiebold * r8de4a9d9a84d 10/crawl-ref/source/webserver/static/game/render.js: WebTiles: Fix rendering of large tiles. 07:36:48 03flodiebold * rcfdf8afd4e85 10/crawl-ref/source/webserver/ (static/client.js templates/client.html): Improve webtiles error reporting. 07:36:58 03flodiebold * rd0292c6f0cc6 10/crawl-ref/source/webserver/static/game/ (enums.js render.js): Correctly display the "fleeing" icon in webtiles. 07:36:58 03kilobyte * r7d90d0f24717 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/mini_monsters.des: Deknifize a vault. 07:36:59 03kilobyte * r0662d480dd98 10/crawl-ref/source/ (6 files in 5 dirs): Merge webtiles fixes. 07:36:59 03kilobyte * r08f9b3856f4f 10/crawl-ref/source/ (4 files in 2 dirs): Whitespace fixes. 07:37:57 edlothiol: at least on "Firefox 5.0" (an asinine change to Fennec, they decided to name it the same as the regular version), I just get "The Websocket connection was closed." (still an improvement to just a black screen...) 07:40:38 so it's fennec, but it's named firefox 5.0? because the normal firefox 5.0 implements the old websocket version, which works 07:41:28 I'll implement the new protocol version, but it will take a bit more time (but I think I'll have it ready before the firefox 6 release) 07:46:08 hrm, looks like neither Fennec 4 nor Fennec 5 have websockets at all 07:46:58 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=537787 suggests an implementation just landed on trunk (and this might be not trunk but some staging area, I don't know their process) 07:47:38 it needed special code because of process separation regular Firefoxes don't have yet 07:49:45 RichardHawk: berserk duration for monsters duration = 16 + random2avg(13, 2) 07:52:19 kilobyte: I could use e.g. socket.io to fall back to long polling if there's no websocket support, I just don't think it will be very playable 07:53:59 RichardHawk: polymorph clears all enchantments 07:57:49 edlothiol: I do have an idea how to pass data from the client to the server in a single half-trip, but it would be one-way only 07:59:34 the other way could be done by multipart/x-mixed-replace or HTML5 server-sent events, though 07:59:45 still, I fear complexity 08:06:00 yes... I personally think browser support will be good enough if I add support for the hybi-09 websockets version 08:06:03 apart from IE 08:07:02 on the other hand, I haven't looked deep enough into the insides... how much work would it be to have support for connectionless transports? I mean, if they could be abstracted. 08:07:12 another thing is that older browsers will probably not have adequate javascript/graphics performance anyway 08:07:31 especially, how much do you store for reconnects? 08:08:14 I guess spectating doesn't send the whole stream from the start, right? 08:08:36 no, it makes the crawl process re-send the necessary data 08:09:44 I could use socket.io (with tornadio on the server side), that would abstract all the transport details 08:10:21 and support websockets, long polling, xhr-multipart and so on 08:10:43 it would mean depending on another library, though 08:12:10 I wonder if I could emulate websockets in a simpler way 08:12:44 both multipart/x-mixed-replace and server-sent events do hold a connection 08:14:03 hrm, MSIE9 doesn't have either of those... and I'm not sure if it would time out a long poll 08:17:37 IE could be supported with flash sockets, too, although I don't know if they can use TLS 08:23:53 I wonder if IE10 will support websockets... there's at least a prototype implementation 08:26:44 shouldn't stasis protect against petrification? 08:29:05 this has been discussed 08:29:22 I forget the justification but people decided that it was okay for stasis not to protect against it 08:29:53 and the gameplay is probably better this way 08:33:17 actually, there was no discussion at all, at least none I remember 08:33:47 I asked this question a couple of times, but no one bothered to answer, so it stood the initial way I coded it 08:36:10 elliptic: oh, you're here. Regarding skill costs, I'm thinking of slightly increasing the rate at which skill_cost_level raise. This should make skills a bit more expensive in mid and late game. 08:37:26 a slight increase sounds reasonable to me, yeah 08:38:35 There's almost no counter to petrify. No MR, no stasis, only statue form protects against it. Is that a problem? 08:38:43 by the way, here's a bug with the current system: if you get a huge chunk of xp early on in one way or another, the entire chunk will be converted into skills using the skill_cost_level from before the chunk is processed 08:39:52 which effectively means the huge chunk of xp becomes even huger 08:40:20 elliptic: good point 08:40:37 I'll chop it into smaller chunks :) 08:41:01 this is only really significant if you do something like draw an experience card at L1, I think, but still worth addressing if it isn't too hard 08:41:15 or kill a ghost 08:41:24 no, shouldn't be too hard 08:41:37 galehar: MR helps against non-cloud forms of petrify 08:42:16 and given you get a turn or two to prepare after you start to petrify (and can teleport or blink away or whatever), I don't think it is a real problem 08:42:29 ok 08:42:34 -!- aapo has left ##crawl-dev 08:43:03 my justification was that it's a transmutation rather than a translocation or an enchantment 08:43:26 but then, all of berserk that's left is non-magical, and is affected 08:44:00 kilobyte: that sounds reasonable to me, yeah... petrify isn't directly slowing down your body, it is just changing your body into something slow (stone) 08:44:34 about skill training, if you use manual mode to train skills one at a time, you can "overtrain" it when gaining a big chunk of XP. There was some suggestions on the forum, like allowing player to set caps (I don't really like this one) or to set up a levelling queue (give me 2 levels of spellcasting, then 1 of fire,...) 08:44:45 so I have doubts if that's right... heck, I would even change it, but I'm not sure enough to argue if you are firm on one side 08:45:09 I don't have the time to implement the latter, but I was wondering if anyone have this problem and how they deal with it (or have any other idea how to) 08:45:33 that smells like a bad case of micromanagement to me 08:45:40 kilobyte: mainly I just don't like it when stasis completely neutralizes things, especially if it can be swapped in after the fact 08:46:04 like, start to petrify in a bad situation and cancel it by swapping in stasis... not good 08:46:09 swapped for orange glow, and glow fucks you up royally 08:46:20 I already don't much like how stasis can cancel slow 08:46:57 extremely powerful to be able to do stuff like that, and glow doesn't balance it well 08:48:33 galehar: it hasn't really bothered me... you might end up wasting a bit of experience early on, but you are likely to want to train that skill up a bit more later anyway so you'll get it back then 08:48:59 and if you are really concerned about it, you can turn multiple skills on right before killing something big 08:49:54 ok 08:50:16 the worst that can happen is to have a bit more in a skill you already wanted 08:53:06 galehar: A berserkered shapeshifter was chasing me around a Vaults level earlier shifting forms every few turns, so obviously the enchantment wasn't being cleared in that case 08:53:44 Though... 08:53:52 It wasn't as fast as it should have been, to think of it 08:54:06 Which means it could just be a lingering tiles berserk icon. 08:58:38 RichardHawk: just tested in wizmode, yes that's it. The berserk enchantment is cleared when the shapeshifter change form, but not the icon. 08:59:51 so, I'm implementing new manuals. They double the skill points gained as long as you're studying them. How much skill points should they give? is random_range(500, 1500, 2) good? 09:03:55 galehar: I don't know the details of this... do they wear off after some duration of time, also? 09:05:03 no. You activate them by reading them and it doubles the skill points gained when you train the skill until you finish them or drop them. The bonus is decremented from the "charges". 09:07:12 so there is no reason not to read one as soon as you find it? 09:07:53 if you care about the skill, no. 09:09:15 or it could force 100% training on this skill too. If you're studying it, you can't learn about anything else. A bit closer to the old design. 09:09:34 I like that one. It needs some kind of drawback. 09:09:53 I wanted to reflavour them as "not magical". They are just manuals, not magic book. When you've finished them, you throw them away, they don't crumble to dust. 09:10:18 galehar: well, is there any drawback to cancelling the manual and then restarting it? 09:10:38 no 09:10:39 if so, forcing 100% training on the skill is just an interface annoyance 09:11:10 I'm not sure it needs a drawback. Manuals are rare and expensive. 09:11:11 yeah, so it doesn't seem like a good idea at least in the first go 09:11:20 forcing I mean 09:11:31 I like the idea of forcing 100% training on the skill and adding a drawback for cancelling and restarting 09:12:34 anyway, about the original question... how many skill points does it take to go from L26 to L27 in a skill (with 0 apt)? 09:13:09 2750 09:13:31 which is almost enought to go from L0 to L10 09:13:35 IMO the effect should be at least that large 09:14:36 perhaps it could scale, with manuals being more useful the later you read them 09:14:42 that would give a reason to hang onto them for a while 09:14:57 ais523: well, they already will convert into more xp later on (when skill points cost more) 09:14:59 if you got the scaling factor right, it would lead to an interesting choice as to when to use a manual (on a skill you wanted) 09:15:45 yep, the fact that they give skill points and not XP already make them have a natural scaling 09:16:30 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 09:17:04 galehar: maybe try to compare them to potions of experience 09:17:36 manual boost should be a lot larger than the xp you get from one, of course 09:18:28 they give 750 * XL 09:19:14 right, and converting that into skill points requires knowing something about how the skill point cost usually varies as XL increases 09:20:13 which is only 810 skill points at high level. 09:20:26 max cost is 250 09:20:39 that's the cost for 10 skill points? 09:20:45 yes 09:21:10 so maybe random_range(2000, 3000, 2) 09:21:38 between 2000 and 3000 sounds reasonable to me, yeah 09:21:57 -!- ixtli has joined ##crawl-dev 09:22:40 actually I don't need the "2" for averaging. It made sense with the 500-1500 range, but not there. 09:33:07 A bunch of monster tiles (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4251) by coolio 09:38:34 elliptic: you sure about the cost not increasing during training if a lot of XP is gained early on? Because _check_skill_cost_change is called from within _train 09:42:38 hm, I haven't checked it myself so maybe not... people on ##crawl seemed to think that this was abusable with getting an early experience card from nemelex 09:42:54 it is possible that they just were noticing the effects of extreme specialization 09:44:18 and misattributing it to this 09:46:43 yeah, that must be it. It's working as intended. 09:47:46 good :) 09:59:58 -!- jarpiain_ is now known as jarpiain 10:00:32 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:06:07 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 10:12:14 -!- hoody_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:21:00 what with Rupert? He doesn't have any theme at all, as remnants of crusaderness have been pulled from under him. 10:23:50 kilobyte: he could be a skald with berserkitis :D 10:24:28 On that note, is there an unique with petrify yet? 10:24:58 no 10:25:05 could be good for roxanne 10:25:11 Yeah, was thinking that 10:25:53 didn't we add petrify to half of anything that moves? 10:26:06 i guess erolcha can get it 10:26:26 I'm afraid it starts going into the Lenin portrait land 10:26:45 I have yet to run into anything except a few errant basilisks that uses it on my current run. Pre-cabotlepas version, though. 10:27:01 basilisks, catoblepas, gnoll shaman 10:27:05 i don't think anything else? 10:27:13 Wizards sometimes, I think 10:27:22 oh, Erolcha ALREADY has it 10:27:35 ah, yeah, if wizards changed anything with that wizard spellbook 10:28:05 yeah sorry that's what i meant 10:29:44 it's only in like 2 books, yeah 10:40:09 I've made Rupert "roar" to get spell effects (berserk, paralysis, confusion), but that's extremely lame 10:42:05 kilobyte: some other uniques lack theme too (I'm looking at you, Louise) so Rupert doesn't really bother me 10:42:41 obviously it would be nice to improve the theme for these uniques, but it isn't really urgent IMO 10:42:50 solutions: 1. axe him, 2. disable for 0.9 + further discussion, 3. make him an ogre or such (needs a tile, roaring is too Shreky, why other ogres can't roar this way?), 4. retheme him completely 10:42:51 oh, also Wiglaf 10:43:08 I mean, other uniques are bland but otherwise make sense 10:43:19 can lowly orcs be band leaders? 10:43:20 how do Wiglaf or Louise make sense 10:43:35 he hardly needs to be removed/disabled, yeah 10:43:47 Louise should be reflavored as an abyssal knight 10:43:57 galehar: they can 10:44:16 does wiglaf still have old oka abilities or what 10:44:20 yes 10:44:35 that's an easy fix though 10:44:40 what's wrong with Louise other than "boring"? 10:44:53 so that's why they keep swapping place with orc wizard. They can push past them because they are their leader, and the wizard pushes back because it has a higher HD. 10:45:07 kilobyte: banishes!! 10:45:34 Banishes and heals as well as casts in heavy armor, apparently 10:45:39 All over the place 10:45:42 kilobyte: banish isn't a spell and her spell set is all over the place, and she is randomly in heavy armour and a shield too 10:46:01 well, monsters are cheaters and plenty have banish, which seems reasonble enough 10:46:11 @??louise 10:46:11 Louise (02@) | Speed: 10 | HD: 13 | Health: 106 | AC/EV: 0/10 | Damage: 17 | Flags: spellcaster | Res: 06magic(86) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 2251 | Sp: stone arrow (3d20), sting (d12), blink, b.lightning (3d19), banishment, minor healing. 10:46:23 making her a lugonu worshipper would be cool though 10:46:33 Banish is fine, but her being an abyssal knight would make it make a lot more sense 10:46:43 that spell set just looks ridiculous, especially combined with the heavy armour and shield 10:46:43 (and dumping the weird conjurations for something else, i guess) 10:47:17 Eronarn: a crapload of other monsters do that. Liches, ancient liches, Erolcha, wizard, ogre mage, elf demonologist, elf sorcerer, drac shifter, the Enchantres, deep elf mage. 10:47:20 kilobyte: anyway, I think there are enough poorly themed uniques already that I don't see any need to change rupert for 0.9 10:47:26 rupert is quite a notorious unique 10:47:44 he at least has a good spell set and is dangerous and interesting, yeah 10:48:38 he doesn't even have _spells_ 10:49:20 @??rupert 10:49:20 Rupert (04@) | Speed: 10 | HD: 16 | Health: 123 | AC/EV: 0/10 | Damage: 21 | Flags: see invisible | Res: 06magic(106) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 2993 | Sp: paralyse, confuse, berserker rage. 10:49:27 currently these are roars, which makes zero sense, but it's still better than having a spell invoke Trog's power 10:49:43 right, i just meant spell set in the technical sense 10:49:48 kilobyte: make him drop an amulet of rage 10:50:06 hah 10:50:19 or maybe he is using a potion 10:50:23 or maybe he is just angry 10:50:38 amulet actually would make sense 10:50:49 I'm not opposed to making the flavour better, but I really don't think disabling him makes sense 10:51:23 i'm not a fan of guaranteeing specific good items on uniques, though 10:51:38 marvinpa: no different really from nikola having a sabre of elec 10:51:39 i guess amulet of rage wouldn't be as bad an offender as pain weapons 10:53:35 give him berserkitis 10:54:17 eronarn: that's approximately what I was thinking by "maybe he is just angry", yeah 10:54:55 there are many more non-trog berserk sources than there are non-lugonu banishment sources 10:55:32 well, it is a bit of a functional change in that he wouldn't be able to zerk until fighting you 10:55:59 might make him cast paralyse more heh heh 10:56:01 but that could itself be interesting 10:56:09 true!! 10:56:57 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:00:04 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:05:02 elliptic: your proposed Saint banner will lead to throw-away accounts created only to put you into a 2-man clan 11:05:23 kilobyte: I don't mind that 11:05:45 and I doubt there will be much of that 11:05:51 -!- RichardHawk has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:06:21 it isn't like you get a special prize for getting the banner 11:08:34 that said, if you have an alternative suggestion for a clan-based banner, I'd love to hear it 11:12:20 to the contrary, one of the banners I dislike and wanted to raise next is Yred's (also a clan one) 11:12:49 most others are good 11:13:00 add a barrier for doing something so broken or rules-abusive that the devteam immediately patch out whatever it is that you just did 11:13:44 except for maybe Xom... but then, "scum Pan for three Zigs and do a few levels of each" is not trivial for most of the population 11:13:52 kilobyte: do you just not like yred's banner because it is quite possible that nobody will get it? 11:14:12 it's way too random too, yeah 11:14:34 Jory is very rare, so is Dissolution 11:14:49 the Enchantress, Murray... 11:14:50 I'm not hugely fond of either banner but I like the idea of having a clan-based banner or two 11:15:42 the Lernaean Hydra used to be extremely rare but with the bug fixed this might have changed 11:15:58 surely you agree that either one is an improvement over the old beogh banner at least? :P 11:16:37 obviously :p 11:17:26 Kiku's banner reuses the best pennant of 0.8, a great addition 11:18:10 Fedhas is meh, but that's just a disguised play time banner 11:18:14 i like the new jiyva banner, incidentally 11:18:32 marvinpa: wensley's idea :) 11:18:33 seems like a better version of the fedhas one, really 11:18:35 aha 11:18:36 Makleb is a spriggan dive gimmick 11:19:25 kilobyte: even as a spriggan, diving to d:27 that quickly isn't trivial, especially for most players 11:19:38 Vehu (branch+rune after Orb) is nice 11:20:12 especially with the orb run changes 11:20:35 elliptic: it's mostly the old XL 1 dive except you are free to get several times as much hp 11:20:36 yeah, without the orbrun changes I wouldn't like the orbrun rune banner 11:21:00 right, 27 minutes is fast though :) 11:21:37 I love the new Zin: no ninjaing Cerebov 11:21:42 where are the suggested banners? 11:21:43 hasn't been done online in over two years... of course people haven't been trying specifically for that 11:21:56 http://crawl.seleniac.org/t11/ 11:22:00 thanks 11:22:01 er, almost two years 11:24:06 it's impossible to take MAXINT+1 turns to win, right? (the game would throw you out before that?) 11:24:13 I really think there should be some points for ZotDef though... it's far from being well-done, but certainly good enough for that 11:24:19 and I assume MAXINT+1 seconds would go rather beyond the end of the tournament 11:24:30 uhm, doesn't zotdef still have the same problems it did originally? 11:24:33 ais523: 2B turns makes you quit 11:24:39 with it being insanely tedious? 11:25:18 that was the initial reaction people had, and the length hasn't changed as far as I know 11:25:18 elliptic: I've done drastic balance changes... including speeding up the pace for example 11:25:35 oh, does it take fewer than 21k turns now? 11:26:04 7*100*15 11:26:19 half as long does sound like an improvement 11:27:33 ZotDef balance was affected far more by bugs rather than adjustments, though 11:28:01 Lugonu banner probably needs rewording, atm it sounds like you can get it by starting the game with a god and playing the entire game with that god 11:28:09 which for, say, Trog, probably isn't what you had in mind 11:28:23 or, Lugonu :p 11:28:37 ais523: yeah, I didn't touch that banner but I don't like the wording either 11:28:44 people also get confused by whether DG is allowed 11:29:00 (it isn't, that's what the "had the option to do so" is about) 11:29:10 ah, I see 11:29:52 that Trog one is bizarre 11:30:05 the largest problem is that implies that you're going down stairs next to Sigmund 11:30:51 kilobyte: a zotdef win could be worth a small number of clan points, I suppose... I'm not sure 11:31:11 has anyone won zotdef without abusing bugs yet? 11:31:43 a couple of the first wins maybe 11:31:47 depending on what you consider a bug 11:31:54 no, mostly because bugs were too prevalent 11:34:31 I do think ZotDef should get you about as much reward as Sprint did last year 11:34:33 the main worry I have about giving points for zotdef wins is that if there is still some abuse or easy-win strategy, people will figure it out during the tourney and then everyone will have to spend the hour using it to win 11:34:49 sprint last year was rather more polished and tested 11:34:52 no, let's give points for the best game/first win 11:35:43 clan points for the first win (or few) could work... is there any way of measuring how good a win is? 11:35:51 like, if Mu_ and you win, I get 14 rune and other folks less, he gets 200 points, you 100, me 50. 11:36:10 wait, it used to be the case that you couldn't win zotdef with any number of runes other than 15 11:36:12 has this changed? 11:36:30 oh, you mean dying 11:36:33 yeah 11:38:18 why are there no new sprint tourney maps, btw? 11:38:22 because people haven't been making them? 11:38:36 something like that sounds reasonable, yes. it could even be regular tourney points in that case probably 11:38:52 !tell galehar From what I've seen, the lack of a resist for petrification is not an issue. I've spent the past few days observing the games of everyone who queries the bots about catoblepae, and in that time I've only seen two cases of petrification, neither fatal (though one was saved by a smart ?tele). 11:38:52 Wensley: OK, I'll let galehar know. 11:39:09 ais523: nobody has been making them, and people were thinking that having separate sprint tourneys might be better anyway 11:39:29 I'd make one if I were good enough at Crawl to get the balance right, but I'm not 11:39:33 i didn't think there'd be sprint stuff this year 11:39:38 I've been making puzzle Wesnoth maps recently 11:39:46 and a puzzle Sprint map could be interesting 11:41:29 i tried out zotdef with the changes and the pace seemed a lot better, was casting XXX and malign gateway on my DESu after a while (still died though) 11:42:04 i think that was before summons were fixed, too, so when there was nothing in sight they'd abandon me and head for the orb 11:43:33 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 11:45:53 kilobyte: one of the tweaks that I want to make to catoblepae is to make it more visible when you're in danger of being petrified, would it be okay for me to add a default force_more for any of the following: 1) when you are struck by a beam of petrifying cloud, 2) when you are standing in a petrifying cloud, 3) when you begin slowing down from petrification. or would you prefer that I... 11:45:55 ...change text color rather than using force_mores? 11:46:38 oh hm, one of the zotdef maps has three entrances to the orb room instead of two? 11:46:51 force_mores break the pace of the game, so let's see what other guys think 11:47:01 coloured messages would be great 11:47:44 I see that the only zotdef win in the last month ends with the player leaving these notes: 11:47:51 11279 | D:1 | I take it ZD is being buggy? 11:47:51 11279 | D:1 | This is cheating, right? :-P 11:47:51 11279 | D:1 | Feel free to remove this win from the database, kthxbye. 11:47:51 11280 | D:$ | Escaped with the Orb! 11:48:00 MarvinPA: it doesn't really change the orb room at all, what matters is that there are two paths without a common choke point though 11:48:04 so yeah, no wins 11:48:28 seems like it'd probably be harder at the very start, since you can't afford to move off the orb and defend the two choke points 11:48:33 but yeah, maybe it's fine 11:48:44 elliptic: yeah, if you placed a teleport trap, monster pathfinding would go haywire and they are hard-coded to prefer the Orb to you 11:48:49 kilobyte: I haven't tried zotdef recently, but it was always the case that the classic zot:5 layout was far easier than the others 11:49:14 oh, i guess the summon fix isn't on cdo yet anyway 11:49:15 like, everyone serious about winning startscummed for that layout 11:49:25 has this been addressed? 11:49:26 the one with a columned hall is probably easier 11:49:32 why? 11:50:06 I did rework the map with a diamond orb chamber, it should be mostly equivalent to the original now 11:50:27 i won a regular zot def game with that other map 11:50:33 elliptic: the choke point is smaller 11:50:55 Mu_: everyone used the zot:5 map, yes 11:51:19 no the other one 11:51:24 there were 3 right 11:51:34 four I think 11:52:05 kilobyte: with the classic zot:5 map, you could just kill everything as it spawns 11:52:06 I enabled another one but I have doubts how it fares later on 11:52:46 Best Crawlers - Zot Defence 11:52:46 1.99999999 ion NaWr-27 escaped with the Orb 11:52:51 oh it was the one with three entrances i did 11:52:51 Suggestion: level selection for zotdef 11:52:53 is that the one you mentioned, elliptic? :P 11:52:55 marvinpa: yes 11:52:58 heh 11:53:30 Keskitalo: good idea, they might be not so biased anymore but the challenges are different 11:54:05 it also opens possiblity to freely do completely different maps, with greatly varying difficulty 11:54:12 like, the Zot:5 one doesn't allow you control things the moment monsters spill out of the starting room 11:54:35 spill out? 11:54:36 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 11:54:52 they prefer escaping over fighting so if they don't get shot on the spot they dash towards the two exits 11:55:12 howdy 11:55:18 bmh: hi! 11:55:29 right but it was easy to shoot them on the spot :P 11:56:05 elliptic: yeah but inevitably you get a surge once in a while 11:57:40 so, to revive some chatter from last night: Is there any interest in having slimes in slime spawn by budding out of the walls? 12:18:59 Obsolete reference to experience pool in morgues (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4252) by Tonfa 12:42:21 03kilobyte * rb6751c3527d7 10/crawl-ref/source/chardump.cc: Don't mention exp pool in char dumps. 12:47:09 -!- Twilight13 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:50:59 -!- Twilight has joined ##crawl-dev 12:51:25 -!- Twilight is now known as Guest15117 12:53:24 -!- golgepapaz has joined ##crawl-dev 13:06:39 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 13:34:53 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:41:15 -!- monqy_ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:42:02 -!- monqy has quit [Disconnected by services] 13:42:04 -!- monqy_ is now known as monqy 13:54:30 Catoblepas Corpse (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4253) by XuaXua 14:01:46 -!- Twinge_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:01:57 -!- Twinge has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:09:09 kilobyte: how are zombie/skeleton tiles created? should I make requests for catoblepas versions? 14:43:19 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:45:12 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 14:47:00 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:52:41 !tell kilobyte A demonstration of the zotdef strategy I mentioned: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/qwqw/morgue-qwqw-20110712-195008.txt - was not very interesting, just tedious. 14:52:41 elliptic: OK, I'll let kilobyte know. 14:56:09 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:30:13 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 15:33:16 Wensley: shouldn't catoblepas use the standard big-mammal zombie/skeleton tile? 15:33:45 where does the name Catoblepas come from? 15:34:29 ah-ha -- there 15:34:39 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catoblepas 15:34:55 Ethiopian food is wonderful, fwiw. 16:08:18 -!- RichardHawk has joined ##crawl-dev 16:11:51 -!- edlothiol has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:13:17 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 16:35:17 m1nced the Sorcerer (L26 HEAE) (Swamp:4) 16:35:45 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 16:43:33 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:00:12 evening 17:00:12 galehar: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 17:00:16 !messages 17:00:16 (1/1) Wensley said (5h 21m 24s ago): From what I've seen, the lack of a resist for petrification is not an issue. I've spent the past few days observing the games of everyone who queries the bots about catoblepae, and in that time I've only seen two cases of petrification, neither fatal (though one was saved by a smart ?tele). 17:00:25 !seen wensley 17:00:25 I last saw Wensley at Tue Jul 12 19:56:09 2011 UTC (2h 4m 16s ago) quitting with message Ping timeout: 255 seconds. 17:01:35 kilobyte: good work with the lua script for calculating damage 17:04:10 now we still need to fix tornado's damage by implementing the sampling method and we'll be able to compare it effectively. 17:08:11 03galehar * ra4a0ef3eb669 10/crawl-ref/source/ (14 files in 2 dirs): New manuals. 17:08:15 03galehar * rfde4e25ee100 10/crawl-ref/source/skills.cc: Slightly increase the skill costs in mid and late game. 17:08:15 03galehar * rf154f3710ba9 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-util.cc: Prevent band members from displacing their leader (#3534). 17:08:23 03galehar * r24054f3b8409 10/crawl-ref/source/main.cc: Add the skill cost to the &= command output. 17:13:25 galehar: what's the sampling method for tornado damage? 17:14:08 ie, by splitting the duration into 1 aut intervals and approximating the area with a trapezoid. Ie, just calculating the radius in the middle of every interval. 17:14:44 we need to calculate an integral because we have a variable radius now 17:15:49 why bother approximating? 17:16:06 -!- golgepapaz has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 4.0/20110318052756]] 17:17:19 2 reasons: 1: we suck at maths. 2: it allows use to change the radius formula to whatever without touching the damage code. 17:17:50 I'm missing the larger context -- the smaller the tornado radius the greater the damage per square? 17:18:37 no, damage is constant, but since the radius is growing, a tile may be only partially affected 17:20:26 !tell kilobyte any reason you picked the old tile for catoblepas instead of the new version? 17:20:26 galehar: OK, I'll let kilobyte know. 17:22:36 galehar: ok, so over some number of turns, the radius grows from r->r', and what you want to know is for a given square some distance from the center, what fraction of the time was that square subject to the torando? 17:23:57 yes, I think that's it. 17:24:14 Is the growth rate constant? 17:24:43 galehar: no particular reason, I just took the original tile the moment Denzi posted it, lemme replace it 17:24:43 kilobyte: You have 3 messages. Use !messages to read them. 17:24:57 kilobyte coded it with linear radius growth rate, but I changed that to linear area growth (which broke the damage calculation) 17:25:37 auto equip is equipping melee weapon w/o obvious cause (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4254) by duncan 17:25:56 ok, then radius will grow as the square root of the change in area 17:26:07 (I think) 17:26:52 yes, the radius growth is 4/5 * sqrt(t) 17:35:20 -!- ixtli has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 17:36:06 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: zzz] 18:22:55 -!- upsy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:26:36 -!- hoody_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:49:21 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:26:28 m1nced the Archmage (L27 HEAE) ASSERT(!actor_at(newpos)) in 'spl-tornado.cc' at line 376 failed on turn 111594. (Slime:6) 19:26:53 m1nced the Archmage (L27 HEAE) ASSERT(!actor_at(newpos)) in 'spl-tornado.cc' at line 376 failed on turn 111571. (Slime:6) 19:27:04 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:27:58 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 19:28:09 m1nced the Archmage (L27 HEAE) ASSERT(!actor_at(newpos)) in 'spl-tornado.cc' at line 376 failed on turn 111567. (Slime:6) 19:32:40 !lm m1nced type=crash -log 19:32:41 15. m1nced, XL27 HEAE, T:111567 (milestone): http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/m1nced/crash-m1nced-20110713-002807.txt 19:34:17 ah ok, damn royal jelly spawns new stuff during the damage call into places monsters can be rotated into 19:35:12 -!- ixtli has joined ##crawl-dev 19:38:28 -!- syllogism has quit [] 19:45:49 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 19:48:46 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Client Quit] 19:52:42 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:55:14 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 20:03:51 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 20:21:20 -!- ixtli has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:26:07 -!- Garhauk has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 5.0/20110615151330]] 20:28:36 -!- ixtli has joined ##crawl-dev 20:34:11 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 20:35:28 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 20:37:37 -!- st_ has quit [] 20:42:32 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 20:48:55 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:05:20 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:06:13 03kilobyte * r186b9cf5e58b 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/ (8 files in 4 dirs): Coolio's tile updates. 21:06:13 03kilobyte * r979d04ba47bb 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/ (UNUSED/monsters/catoblepas.png dc-mon/animals/catoblepas.png): Update Denzi's tile for catoblepas. 21:06:14 03kilobyte * r63f2afe09819 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/ (3 files in 3 dirs): A lame reduction of the shadow imp tile. 21:06:14 03kilobyte * r6a7eab736dc1 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-mon/demons/quasit.png: XuaXua's tailectomy of quasit tiles. 21:06:14 03kilobyte * r2a2a16e69f8b 10/crawl-ref/source/ (spl-book.cc spl-util.cc): Forbid felids from memorizing a bunch of useless spells. 21:06:14 03kilobyte * r5deb02cc05f0 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-tornado.cc: Fix a tornado crash when a Royal Jelly spawn goes into a prepared space. 21:06:25 03kilobyte * rec6ae37857d6 10/crawl-ref/source/l_mons.cc: dlua function mons.wont_attack 21:06:25 03kilobyte * r3a82c6cb3116 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/lua-wiz/damtally.lua: damtally.lua: exempt friendlies from calculations. 21:06:25 03kilobyte * rda9ab9ee60f5 10/crawl-ref/source/ouch.cc: Don't let disabling death block quitting. 21:10:58 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:13:03 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 21:37:21 -!- Twinge_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:38:56 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 21:40:13 -!- Twinge has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:40:23 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 21:52:34 -!- ainsophy_ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:57:03 Ice Form Octopode has only 1 ring slot. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4255) by b0rsuk 22:00:54 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 22:03:18 ...only 1? 22:03:20 what 22:04:50 -!- Garhauk has joined ##crawl-dev 22:04:54 that is a pretty weird bug 22:08:10 03dolorous * r72545ab6b8c0 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-book.cc: Forbid felids from memorizing Maxwell's Silver Hammer (vorpal branding). 22:19:39 -!- jeanjacques has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:20:34 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 22:33:03 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:57:19 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 22:59:13 -!- ainsophy_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:03:38 m1nced the Archmage (L27 HEAE) ASSERT(!actor_at(newpos)) in 'spl-tornado.cc' at line 376 failed on turn 111561. (Slime:6) 23:07:24 Ice Form can and can't wear wizard hats (octopode) (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4256) by b0rsuk 23:52:07 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 23:55:17 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]