00:13:17 -!- ixtli has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 00:14:43 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.9-a1-957-g30c896e (32) 00:15:54 -!- ixtli has joined ##crawl-dev 00:24:21 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:26:09 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 00:33:08 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 00:37:52 -!- ixtli has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:41:05 -!- Twilight-1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:44:24 -!- Twilight has joined ##crawl-dev 00:44:50 -!- Twilight is now known as Guest44776 00:45:09 -!- ixtli has joined ##crawl-dev 01:07:17 -!- gnsh has quit [] 01:10:33 -!- gnsh has joined ##crawl-dev 01:35:29 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 01:43:33 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:45:16 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:50:39 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 02:10:21 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:14:03 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 02:20:45 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:26:01 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 02:26:59 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:39:42 The new Elf endings from minmay look very nice. 02:42:16 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 02:42:32 evilmike's Zot entries too. 02:44:21 kilobyte: what's the status of the abyss branch? Ready for merge? Still nasty bugs? 02:58:46 -!- mumra has quit [] 03:08:04 03kilobyte * r91013d3b6fa6 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/ (4 files in 2 dirs): dolphin's octopode tile. 03:08:20 galehar: yeah :( 03:09:02 for example, at any moment shallow water might turn to a wall before your nose, etc 03:09:22 isn't it the intended effect of morphing? 03:10:22 it's not a shape morphing to something else, it's a set of squares flipping as a whole 03:11:27 ie, if you have 3 squares of lava, you'll have the exact same 3 squares of stone 03:11:38 then in a few turns they turn into lava of rock again 03:12:06 03kilobyte * r7a4cae2ebd49 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-tornado.cc: Don't let tornado put people on statues, grates, etc. 03:12:16 03kilobyte * rb10458e5dfc6 10/crawl-ref/source/player.cc: ZotDef: don't grant double ZP. 03:12:17 03kilobyte * r47b5eadb2c77 10/crawl-ref/source/ (5 files in 2 dirs): Simplify Singing Sword speech code, vary its loudness. 03:14:43 maybe the effect would be better if squares moved instead of flipping 03:15:17 that's the whole concept, but it doesn't work for some reason 03:16:27 in the general though, any changes passable<->impassable next to you are tedious after even a very brief gameplay testing 03:16:59 that didn't happen before the day before yesterday, too 03:17:33 maybe we can prevent the effect for adjacent cells. Or in a small radius. 03:18:40 I guess this is not because of the noise but because of how it is rendered onto the map, though 03:18:59 so the same bump sometimes is interpreted as lava, sometimes as water 03:24:04 Did you guys notice my messages from five hours ago? 03:24:45 teleport traps should never spawn there 03:24:55 kilobyte: pardon me for jumping in here, but is there a way you could decide "passability" by a noise function as well? 03:25:12 and then in passable areas interpret things one way and differently in impassable areas? 03:25:20 I also guess outright asserting if pathfinding fails might be good 03:25:44 aye 03:26:05 moocowpong1: perhaps, might work. I guess bmh has far more clue about it, though. 03:26:35 I know nothing about the code, so I have no idea what could work 03:26:38 just thinking aloud 03:29:09 -!- moocowpong1 has quit [Quit: moocowpong1] 04:11:44 -!- moocowpong1 has joined ##crawl-dev 04:23:06 -!- moocowpong1 has quit [Quit: moocowpong1] 04:36:16 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 04:41:27 -!- golgepapaz has joined ##crawl-dev 04:42:05 Shiren the Slayer (L27 MfCK) ASSERT(y >= 1 && y <= sz.y) in 'libutil.cc' at line 902 failed on turn 166906. (Pan) 04:44:11 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 04:51:53 -!- ortoslon has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:07:51 -!- RichardHawk has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:08:00 -!- RichardHawk has joined ##crawl-dev 05:24:40 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:54:24 -!- galehar_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:11:21 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 06:35:18 galehar: If a skill gains two or more levels when it is learned in manual mode, it does not automatically turn off. 06:36:45 you mean learning a skill and it goes straight to L2? 06:36:48 right, good point 06:36:56 thanks for noticing, I'll fix it. 06:38:05 -!- galehar_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:43:32 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 06:43:36 !seen nrook 06:43:37 dpeg: You have 7 messages. Use !messages to read them. 06:43:37 I last saw nrook at Thu Jul 7 02:08:49 2011 UTC (9h 34m 48s ago) quitting with message Quit: leaving. 06:45:25 !tell nrook The patch for AC/etc rings does not make the ring (linearly) cheaper if the power is <0. Intentional? 06:45:26 dpeg: OK, I'll let nrook know. 06:45:28 !messages 06:45:28 (1/7) dpeg said (6d 12h 1m 10s ago): Singschwertschadenzahlen an Adam schicken! 06:45:34 !messages 06:45:34 (1/6) Keskitalo said (6d 6h 33m 41s ago): No-tele spider vaults works for me! 06:45:40 !messages 06:45:41 (1/5) Keskitalo said (6d 1m 48s ago): Could also fix strandedness by providing portals out where appropriate. 06:45:47 !messages 06:45:48 (1/4) due said (5d 3h 3m 51s ago): Without checking: I think there's a wrapper for mon.observable(). It just depends on the context: dlua, definittely, and if it doesn't, it should be created. For clua... I'm not sure what's in monster_info or not. 06:45:53 !messages 06:45:53 (1/3) dpeg said (1d 12h 6m 5s ago): lexackson_kobold_supper shouldn't use name_species, it will make the kobold drop a "corpse of hungry kobold" 06:46:06 03nrook * r445bbce25c09 10/crawl-ref/source/shopping.cc: Change prices of fixed-effect jewellery. 06:46:06 !messages 06:46:07 (1/2) golgepapaz said (23h 11m 48s ago): I've added a second patch file to the mantis concerning deck identification 06:46:10 !messages 06:46:11 (1/1) kilobyte said (9h 28m 33s ago): would one message entry for silenced Singing Sword be enough, or do you want to do it per tension tier? 06:46:17 03nrook * r519e89f0e400 10/crawl-ref/source/shopping.cc: Remove x7 multiplier from jewellery calculations (no gameplay effect). 06:46:17 03nrook * r0ea0a3305340 10/crawl-ref/source/shopping.cc: Change prices of variable-strength rings to increase quadratically. 06:46:46 Whatâ€™s the nick of the CDO admin? 06:46:51 Napkin! 06:46:54 !tell kilobyte One message entry is enough: "The Sword struggles and turns." etc. I can write some. 06:46:55 dpeg: OK, I'll let kilobyte know. 06:46:56 Thanks 06:48:04 !tell Napkin Hi. You might want to delete my ZotDef â€świnâ€ť since it was done abusing a bug. Kthxbye. 06:48:05 ion: OK, I'll let Napkin know. 06:50:18 wassup? 06:50:18 Napkin: You have 8 messages. Use !messages to read them. 06:50:24 i can't 06:50:36 not without screwing up the system 06:50:56 since scoring/milestones etc is synced to CAO 06:51:08 Oh. Well, crap. 06:51:23 what bug did you abuse? The monster spawning one? 06:51:42 < ion> First of all, ZD was too easy with the new changes. Secondly, when i placed teleport traps to block monsters from reaching the orb, all movement of NPCs stopped. I just had to wait for the remaining two or so runes to appear and then hack my way through the monsters standing still to win. (A.k.a. cheating :-P) 06:52:04 ah 06:54:39 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:59:03 http://crawl.develz.org/ttyrecs/ion/2011-07-07.00:28:06.ttyrec 07:01:27 -!- ixtli has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 07:05:17 monsters stopping because of a trap? Sounds like https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4199 07:06:54 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 07:08:40 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 07:08:47 The monsters didnâ€™t stop in front of the traps, they just stopped where they were and didnâ€™t fight back when being hacked. The only movement my slaves did was switching places with me when i was moving through them. 07:09:09 (at the end of that ttyrec) 07:09:51 <+kilobyte> teleport traps should never spawn there <+kilobyte> I also guess outright asserting if pathfinding fails might be good 07:09:54 That makes sense. 07:17:13 pathfinding can fail for perfectly legitimate reasons. Like the target is unreachable. 07:19:18 galehar: there are a bunch of interface proposals dealing with better feedback there. 07:19:25 The player probably shouldnâ€™t be able to block monsters from having a way to reach the orb in ZD. 07:19:34 Should I implementable-label them? 07:20:16 dpeg: interface improvment from the wiki? To implementable mantis? Sure, go ahead. 07:20:23 yes 07:21:33 ion: Well, technically the monsters COULD walk into tele traps and get closer to the orb. But tele traps are still rather overpowered. 07:21:55 ion: yes, there's a bug in the AI, I'm just saying asserting on failed pathfinding may not be such a good idea. Not sure what happened there. Maybe pathfinding wasn't even attempted. Will have to debug it. 07:22:09 ion: and maybe you shouldn't be able to place teletrap in ZD 07:22:36 yeah 07:22:37 They could be special-cased to be destroyed after one use, but not sure if that's worth the trouble 07:22:48 Other abilities are more interesting 07:23:54 RichardHawk: teletrap are also abusable in normal games. We'll have to give them a limited number of charges at some point. 07:24:34 That'll break a lot of vaults, but yeah, can see why 07:25:57 -!- casmith789 has joined ##crawl-dev 07:26:55 there is a "tele nerf" implementable which deals with this and other problems =) 07:27:35 RichardHawk: we can keep permanent teletrap for vaults 07:28:54 how about changing shuffle so it only shuffles part of your stats? A bit like how Jyiva does now. 07:29:23 galehar: yes, it is fine 07:29:29 though the player is over-whining 07:29:49 for one, as a Nemelexite you may attempt to have stats more evenly 07:29:58 and then, even after the swap, it is not the end of the game 07:30:19 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:30:24 dpeg: Please add more small implementables. 07:30:28 Shuffle Trolls are the most fun part of the card! 07:30:39 Also you can just triple draw the deck 07:30:48 I'm probably gonna go for ^q, ^e, ^r soom. 07:30:50 soon* 07:30:59 ghallberg: there are some! Not ones you like, or not small enough? 07:31:06 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:31:07 But I can dish out a dozen or so interface ones. 07:31:12 dpeg: didn't Jiyva's shuffle was like the card before? And changed for a similar reason? 07:31:16 * dpeg gets all itchy, but has to wait until tonight. 07:31:32 galehar: no, never was like the card 07:31:32 Tele nerf proposal looks good. 07:31:44 and the Nemelexite has ways to deal with the cards 07:31:49 On that note, zot teleport could also have delay. 07:31:52 dpeg: Last time i filtered by "implementable" on mantis I got 2 results :P 07:32:12 ghallberg: try again. There are plenty of them. 07:32:12 ghallberg: do it again 07:32:14 One of which was 'D' _Ă 07:32:15 :P 07:32:19 Not now! 07:32:23 I'm supposed to be working! 07:32:25 RichardHawk: it has 07:32:40 Oh, it was changed? 07:33:16 RichardHawk: yes, some of the orb run ideas have been implemented. There should be a summary in the Mantis item comments. 07:33:31 I meant the ability in ZD 07:34:18 As is, it's instant cTele for no cost other than a little glow 07:34:23 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:35:57 Or it could still be instant, but have a meaningful cost attached to it 07:41:30 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 07:42:11 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 08:15:17 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 08:16:07 03dolorous * rf56568d837b6 10/crawl-ref/source/art-func.h: Add spacing fix. 08:22:43 ZotDef electric eels not only have little thematic sense, make mobile pets, but also leave pools of water than hinder movement. 08:22:43 kilobyte: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 08:23:05 what about some other turret, like a "lightning spire" or such? 08:26:51 dpeg: for SS, it spams at high tension on 7 in 10 turns. Since by definition of tension there will be a lot of things going on, this is probably fine spam-wise, but I'm not sure you designed the damage with that in mind. 08:29:08 dpeg: it doesn't scale with your level, so it's all-powerful when you find it in that D:4 vault, and not bad in Pan 08:29:42 setting/init.txt: 08:29:51 # auto_switch = false 08:29:54 # autoswitch = false 08:30:35 with all the nerfs galehar and MarvinPA want me to do to tornado, singing sword actually does more for free :p 08:31:20 ion: the option is auto_switch 08:32:01 yes 08:32:29 dpeg: which means that we need to think more 08:32:32 kilobyte: Getting water out of Zotdef sounds good, with the addition of a lightning spire 08:32:37 galehar, both are in init.txt 08:32:40 re: shuffle, i definitely think it should stay as a very significant effect 08:33:05 oh right 08:33:06 since it's a mostly avoidable risk anyway, and an interesting challenge to deal with 08:33:13 Water in zotdef just bears no significance, since it's not allowed to be deep for obvious reasons 08:33:18 also, the skill training boost in ZotDef is insane now that you don't need exp pool to pay for Zot abilities 08:33:39 RichardHawk: it slows down monsters and makes them fumble 08:34:34 galehar: sorry for wasting your time yesterday, that char I tested skill training was in ZotDef, and I had no idea the skill boost is still in... 08:34:45 kilobyte: There are a ton of other ways to hinder land-based monsters. 08:35:05 MarvinPA: I agree. I was thinking of shuffling around 10-15 points instead of whole stats. Sounds more interesting to go from 35 to 20-25 than to 6. 08:35:16 kilobyte: it's ok, happens :) 08:36:23 kilobyte: the skill training boost can be removed or reduced. I have no idea about ZD's balance. 08:36:37 that might be reasonable, i'd suggest aiming high for the numbers in that case though 08:37:07 especially since you can have focused a lot of your stats already, as a nemelexite 08:37:40 that would make the card mostly an equalizer then 08:37:42 Temporary effects are preferable to permanent ones in ZD, I'd say. 08:38:08 MarvinPA: you think it would be an improvement over the current effect? I don't really feel strongly about it. 08:38:31 well, i'd probably say it's fine to leave it as-is 08:38:48 ok 08:39:16 nemelex balance definitely isn't perfect but shuffle is a nice card, i'd say :) 08:42:05 03kilobyte * ra42cb6c716bd 10/crawl-ref/source/ (art-func.h dat/database/wpnnoise.txt): Make the Singing Sword use a different set of messages when silenced. 08:45:49 !tell dpeg should the SS also rename itself when silenced? 08:45:50 kilobyte: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 08:46:06 Silent Sword! 08:48:23 Straining word. 08:48:30 Sword. 08:51:19 kilobyte: okay, I am aware of the issue. Will think and reply. 08:51:19 dpeg: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 08:52:15 Sulking Sword 08:53:12 dpeg: Perfect. 08:55:43 kilobyte: busy now, will try to come up with relative damage rather than absolute one. Please !tell me if this is a horrid idea outright. 08:56:59 not sure what it should be relative to 09:01:40 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 09:02:06 03dolorous * rd14da8d866ef 10/crawl-ref/source/stuff.cc: Properly expand the empty-handed canned message to account for claws/tentacles. 09:02:50 a problem in ZotDef: teleporting with the orb into a loot chamber will make pathfinding impossible, causing a massive slowdown, monsters to be uncooperative (not a big problem at that point) and, if I add the assertion I want, a crash 09:03:22 can I just make it fail outright, like -cTele out of ZotDef? 09:05:41 I'd axe teleport traps as well, it makes monster AI go haywire. It could be fixed by making them always unknown to monsters, and by expiring them, just the first solution is easiest. 09:06:05 not that hard to implement as teleporting into a loot chamber though 09:06:28 Once the player has the orb, might as well force them to walk out 09:08:39 Having the level 27 ability be zot trap would be amazing for flavor. Not sure how to make it work mechanics-wise though. 09:10:19 Chaos effects, sans the positive ones? 09:13:39 -!- syllogism- has joined ##crawl-dev 09:13:47 445bbce25c090c2633d78b168cae86f9ff2307b4: crawl-ref/source/shopping.cc: if (valued < 0) valued = 20; 09:13:53 Shouldnâ€™t that be: if (valued < 20) valued = 20; 09:14:02 -!- ixtli has joined ##crawl-dev 09:14:17 or valued = max(valued, 20) or something 09:15:13 -!- Adeon is now known as Bdeon 09:15:39 -!- Bdeon is now known as Adeon 09:15:42 -!- syllogism has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:25:52 RichardHawk: zot trap would need to tweaked, because currently they are harmful for player and allies, and harmless on hostiles. 09:26:37 galehar: I'm aware, it was just a suggestion for the flavour of the final trap since tele trap has a whole lot of issues itself. 09:29:39 I'd give a patch suggestion a shot but I need to learn the coding language first. 09:36:30 -!- RichardHawk has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:38:19 -!- RichardHawk has joined ##crawl-dev 09:42:47 -!- edlothiol has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:44:08 -!- Adeon is now known as MaryPoppins 09:44:09 03dolorous * r5e23e3d3242c 10/crawl-ref/source/shopping.cc: Fix apparent typo. 09:45:28 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 09:59:21 Fix feature mimics (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4228) by reid 10:00:07 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 10:22:30 cool, a feature mimic patch :) 10:22:43 anyone up for reviewing it? 10:23:05 due: wasn't feature mimics your thing? 10:34:32 Map-mode set-waypoint confirmations are invisible in tiles (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4229) by rriegs 10:37:25 wow 10:37:26 that's a huge patch 10:38:00 nothing jumps out as flat out wrong to me, but i'm not going to go through it line by line because it touches so much code 10:38:50 oh wait, haha cute. 10:39:03 it's just removing all the feature mimic code 10:39:43 guess that does address a large number of issues with them! 10:46:49 cute indeed 10:49:37 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 10:57:58 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:01:51 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 11:06:03 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 11:07:13 !tell nrook ion (2 hours ago): crawl-ref/source/shopping.cc: if (valued < 0) valued = 20; --- Shouldnâ€™t that be: if (valued < 20) valued = 20; or valued = max(valued, 20) or something 11:07:14 dpeg: OK, I'll let nrook know. 11:09:45 i think dolorous already changed that 11:10:18 yeah: http://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/commit/5e23e3d3242c26f414427464f829012975e98314 11:15:09 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:15:49 !tell nrook 18:09 <+MarvinPA> i think dolorous already changed that 11:15:49 dpeg: OK, I'll let nrook know. 11:22:28 Am I the only one who thinks Baileys spawn a bit too early? 11:22:49 I hardly ever feel like doing one at XL:9/D:7 11:22:55 I think they're interesting, much like ice caves 11:23:07 Stumbled into a D:5 one earlier and cleared part of it for exp. 11:24:49 ghallberg: early is better, imo 11:24:54 Well this one was VERY scummable :S 11:25:02 dpeg: Not if it means you never go there. 11:25:10 Should report that prbably :P 11:25:20 ghallberg: yes, please 11:25:21 they're nice early, makes them pretty challenging but rewarding 11:25:30 I wouldn't like if Baileys appear so late that you always finish them if you find one 11:25:53 dpeg: Nah but many times I find myself not being able to kill anything if I enter them. 11:26:07 ghallberg: that's okay: just leave :) 11:26:07 03dolorous * ra7c8ce7fd30a 10/crawl-ref/source/ (decks.cc spl-goditem.cc): Add formatting fixes. 11:26:07 03dolorous * r1c45f4cb43fa 10/crawl-ref/source/decks.cc: Fix wording. 11:26:07 How do I report this scummability best? 11:26:07 03dolorous * rb487ff9613bd 10/crawl-ref/source/decks.cc: Simplify. 11:26:08 03dolorous * r69c91623ed55 10/crawl-ref/source/decks.cc: Fix Mantis 4227: Mark the first card of a deck if it's identified via scroll. 11:26:27 ghallberg: can you look up in des/portal/bailey.des which map it was? 11:26:41 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 11:26:44 There are moats and the entry spot is out of reach so I can just back off and recharge, then step forward to a spot where only 2 orcs can see me. 11:27:01 Only reason this got dangerous was a ghost blocked the safe spot first :P 11:27:08 dpeg: Gonna do so. 11:29:50 Anyway I think it should be changed to depth 8 or 9 minimum. But I'm biased :P 11:29:51 ghallberg: the one with the central big tower? 11:31:14 It wasn't moats, it was two small lakes with orcfilled islands. 11:31:15 !tell golgepapaz dolorous fixed the deck bug: 69c91623ed55ac53a42471b6cb1785166540708c somehow + _set_card_and_flags(deck, -1, card, flags | CFLAG_SEEN | CFLAG_MARKED); deck.props["num_marked"]++; is needed. Cheers! 11:31:16 dpeg: OK, I'll let golgepapaz know. 11:31:20 ghallberg: ah! 11:31:30 I started looking around in the maps before I went on to look ;) 11:32:01 Standing on the exit portal by the entrance, none of them can see you. Standing on the entry portal only two can. 11:34:38 And of course I die in there anyway :P 11:34:41 I HATE BAILEYS! 11:35:04 why? 11:35:27 Because I suck ;) 11:35:34 Got killed by an orc knight... 11:35:49 if you die there anyway, then the map's okay 11:36:04 there's orcs that aren't trapped on the islands, too 11:37:00 WHat MarvinPA said, the island orcs are not a threat since you can scum them. 11:37:10 the other orcs are reasonable :P 11:37:28 you can scum them if you don't want to get the loot 11:37:30 i don't think scum is the right word there :P 11:38:10 should probably give them crossbows instead of reaching or something 11:38:15 MarvinPA: Ok, maybe not. 11:38:20 wait, they already have crossbows 11:38:23 it's alright, then 11:38:44 right 11:38:46 I don't like that there's a spot where you can just hide forever. 11:39:17 such a spot doesn't matter if it doesn't get you anywhere 11:39:21 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 11:39:32 it changes nothing 11:41:40 As I said, go out one step, cast Pain 18 times. Step back to safety, recharge. 11:42:03 and they shoot you with their crossbows 18 times 11:43:01 Well yeah. 11:43:11 But it gives you infinite mana. 11:43:21 I don't think it's an interesting problem is all. 11:43:48 Oh well, not that big of an issue. If dpeg takes a look at it I don't care if it changes or not :D 12:00:07 ghallberg: name please :) 12:00:37 ghallberg: ? 12:00:43 Of map? 12:01:37 bailey_polearm_4 12:07:00 thx 12:19:38 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:25:08 skills assertion failed (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4230) by Brain 12:27:24 -!- blackpenguin has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:28:06 -!- golgepapaz has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:43:19 -!- Guest44776 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:46:22 -!- Twilight has joined ##crawl-dev 12:46:48 -!- Twilight is now known as Guest13344 13:01:50 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 13:06:46 -!- nrook has joined ##crawl-dev 13:13:11 dpeg: hello! 13:13:12 nrook: You have 3 messages. Use !messages to read them. 13:14:53 -!- golgepapaz has joined ##crawl-dev 13:15:04 -!- upsy has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:18:39 !tell dpeg If AC/etc rings are not made linearly cheaper as they get worse, then it's wrong, but I think they do; "if (base <= 0) valued += 25 * base" in shopping.cc should cheapen them, as base = 2*item.plus. Or do you mean that they'll all get set to 20 by the hardcap anyway? 13:18:42 nrook: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 13:20:37 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 13:23:42 Hi 13:23:42 dpeg: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 13:24:01 !messages 13:24:01 (1/2) kilobyte said (4h 38m 11s ago): should the SS also rename itself when silenced? 13:24:20 kilobyte: around? I suggest Sulking Sword, which met some support. 13:24:22 !messages 13:24:23 (1/1) nrook said (5m 41s ago): If AC/etc rings are not made linearly cheaper as they get worse, then it's wrong, but I think they do; "if (base <= 0) valued += 25 * base" in shopping.cc should cheapen them, as base = 2*item.plus. Or do you mean that they'll all get set to 20 by the hardcap anyway? 13:24:38 nrook: ok, so I just misunderstood. Randarts today? 13:26:38 -!- upsy has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:26:54 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 13:29:02 dpeg: that fix prevents the use of Nemelex abilities, I distincly remember telling you that 13:29:03 golgepapaz: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 13:30:02 golgepapaz: but you (a) didn't tell dolorous and (b) there was this bug (players got it in normal games) 13:31:18 eh I believe that error happened only in wizmode? 13:32:59 ah i see it now. 13:33:47 that was the question yesternight :) 13:33:58 wizmode gives a verbose error message than regular 13:35:17 ok anyway I'll fix the error checking function or use another property other than num_marked to identify first card... 13:36:17 -!- blackpenguin has joined ##crawl-dev 13:46:46 dpeg: randarts today! 13:50:21 I found a decent f, I think: http://pastebin.com/tk1wF7Tx 13:55:45 nrook: i think a separate multiplier value would work far better because having multiple, even weak properties is valuable 13:57:20 5+5+5+5 can be more or less valuable than 20 13:58:07 Eronarn: Example? I'm not sure I understand. 13:59:06 There's the "a utility weapon with +blink +tele isn't much more useful than two utility weapons, one with +blink and one with +tele" case, but I don't see any others 14:01:28 I think that Eronarn is right. However, I don't think anymore that we need multipliers for each property. Rather, we deduce multiplier from base value, keep track of them and multiply the sum with the total multiplier. 14:01:59 nrook: for example, having multiple resists on a single randart will not make up for it being MUT. or having rF++ rC++ isn't necessarily better than rF++ rC+ insulation even if we have insulation worth less than rC+ on its own 14:02:08 Although this approach would still not capture Eronarn's 5+5+5+5. 14:02:46 this is most pronounced with weapons where a +9,+9 weapon shouldn't be worth tons and tons more than a +4,+4 one, but a +9,+9 one with a great brand and resists should be staggeringly expensive 14:02:54 eronarn: I don't think this is worth worrying about 14:03:12 I think we want multipliers between 1.05 and 1.4 or so, hence a logarithmic scale seems in order. 14:03:34 nrook: we can also compare with what your formula spits out. If the results are comparable, then your formula will be easier. 14:04:06 dpeg: one other thing i'd do is try and price base item properties with whatever formula is used 14:04:23 Eronarn: need more context! 14:04:41 e.g., have dragon armors count their rF++ and rC- when figuring out just how good they are when worn 14:05:06 eronarn: shouldn't that sort of thing just be counted via the base price for a dragon armour? 14:05:21 yes 14:05:27 Eronarn: I'm not sure how multipliers help there? It's not like rC+ is going to have a "if already rF++ rC+, then use a lower multiplier" switch 14:05:30 nrook: still with us? :) 14:05:44 elliptic: not sure you can... for example, rF- on a dragon armor isn't as bad as rF- on something else 14:05:46 yes, was just staring at text that whole time :) 14:06:38 and yes, we can compare functions after settling relative property quality 14:06:39 nrook: my point is that resist+resist+resist is worth much more than int+str+dex 14:06:40 nrook: it would make sense to have goodness count levels non-linearly 14:06:54 your formula only sees the number of properties, the multipliers see a bit more 14:07:11 eronarn: dragon armours can't have rF- afaik 14:07:37 hmm, that seems odd 14:07:48 no, it is fine 14:07:58 i thought nrook's formula assigns a goodness to each property 14:08:02 dpeg: well, int+str+dex would have significantly lower goodness to begin with 14:08:07 MarvinPA: yes, my comment was off 14:08:12 aha 14:08:13 -!- dpeg is now known as shamepeg 14:08:16 :P 14:08:39 and I've been sitting here this whole time going "there must be something fundamental I'm missing, right?" 14:08:44 shame! 14:09:22 However, setting a goodness value to every randart property is troublesome.... my idea of base price-derived multipliers could be turned into base price-derived goodness 14:09:25 nrook: something like +6 str should really be more 'good' than 2str2dex2int 14:09:35 eronarn: why? 14:10:04 nrook: agree on that? 14:10:14 if you start worrying about details with how different properties interact, you'll never get anywhere 14:10:31 shamepeg: oh, you mean to derive the cost of properties from base items which have them (like ring of rF+)? interesting idea 14:10:36 elliptic: the current code makes a (rather lame) attempt for rF+rC :) 14:10:36 coming up with goodness values for individual properties sounds hard enough 14:10:56 I would suggest something like log(base price) 14:11:25 deriving the cost of properties from base items which have them sounds like a bad idea to me 14:11:29 elliptic: because +6 to a stat is going to be worth more than +2 to 3 stats, for characters who can make use of that stat 14:11:51 elliptic: why? We made sure that "better" = "more expensive" for the base costs 14:12:07 Eronarn: you can write the goodness function that takes everything into account, I'm sure your patch will be accepted into 0.53 :p 14:12:18 oh, another thing: I believe that randart prices could use some randomisation 14:12:25 well I haven't seen all the price changes, but context matters a lot, as does rarity 14:12:29 we can even just eyeball goodness off of the base prices 14:12:36 nrook: that part isn't even complicated... you just make rF+ be 10 goodness, rF++ be 15 goodness, or whatever 14:13:03 10+15 rather than 10+10, i mean 14:13:10 at least I wouldn't try to use a formula... probably you would get better results from eyeballing it like nrook just said 14:13:58 what are the really good randart properties? 14:14:02 I've decided to leave the last decks fix as it is. you can't use the nemelex abilities if the first card is identified via a scroll but also there is no need to do so. 14:14:10 Dam+8 14:14:18 resists 14:14:23 Dam+7 also is pretty good 14:14:24 +13 armor enchantment 14:14:36 golgepapaz: you can't use any nemelex ability on a deck that's been identified by scroll? 14:14:37 I am serious. You're not. 14:14:45 well I didn't know you meant resists 14:15:05 no you can't since the deck is marked, you cant use mark four and stack five 14:15:11 elliptic: my next proposal would be to take the plain sum and then slap on individual multipliers from a short list 14:15:28 can you use them once you've drawn the marked card? 14:15:30 golgepapaz: this is not so bad, actually 14:15:32 I'm typing up all of the properties now, just for reference 14:15:38 yes I think so... 14:15:39 additive *and* multiplicative factors? 14:15:48 lemme check 14:15:50 seems fine, if that's the case 14:15:54 elliptic: there are no additive factors 14:15:56 * shamepeg whistles 14:16:06 -!- shamepeg is now known as dpeg 14:16:17 summands then :P 14:16:25 NO adictive factors. 14:16:37 MarvinPA: clearly, a good randart is worth a lot more than the sum of base prices. 14:16:44 MarvinPA <--> elliptic 14:16:54 just seems like being more complicated is not a good thing here... I liked nrook's original suggestion 14:17:04 note the function f accounts for what you just said 14:17:16 elliptic: but we have to define it for all randart properties 14:17:39 I don't really like this... randart properties come and go. They fewer we hack in, the better. 14:17:47 all of the properties are here! http://pastebin.com/tk1wF7Tx 14:18:00 now to read everything I missed 14:18:07 eyesight is probably sinv? 14:18:23 dpeg: uh, what is your proposal that doesn't involve giving a number for each property? 14:18:30 MarvinPA: yes 14:18:41 I don't think it's too hard for someone implementing a randart property to throw in a cost 14:18:48 elliptic: deriving the number from the base price, as I said multiple times 14:18:53 that's not simpler 14:19:06 not all properties come with base prices 14:19:33 that is true 14:20:11 ok, so we have 18+8 properties 14:20:22 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 14:20:30 26 numbers, you've already come up with many more than that for pricing for other stuff 14:20:37 nrook: does your goodness approach allow to treat negative properties as well? 14:20:54 nrook: if not, assigning multipliers would :) 14:21:15 the only issue with goodness is interacts strangely with the slaying numbers we already have, that'd be the advantage of deriving from base prices 14:22:11 we can just subtract from goodness, though that only really works for armour 14:22:17 nrook: yes 14:23:34 a few properties (the +ability ones and some of the negative ones) don't really fit in the goodness schema, simply because they don't increase the value of a weapon/jewellery multiplicatively 14:23:35 I suggest a formula of the following type: have a randart summand and a randart factor for each property. Then: price = total sum * total factor. 14:23:54 wherever possible, we use base price for the summand 14:25:03 we only really have two types of factor, though, no? "much better on something good than something bad" and "pretty much the same value on something good and something bad" 14:25:10 if we can achieve that with just one number per property, I'd be happy to see that, but I'd like an example 14:25:25 nrook: good point, we can use this to simplify 14:26:09 we could just put a multiplier of 1.2 (or something) on the former and 1.0 on the latter 14:26:19 we can be a bit rough... the multiplier for an +X item could be 1+X/10, for example 14:26:21 I still think keeping things simple with only one number per property is the right idea... I'm really not convinced that anything more complicated will help particularly 14:26:24 or we could have f calculate the former and do the latter additively :) 14:26:26 i think +12 armor enchantmet should cost more than the double of +6enchanment, 14:26:58 I'm afraid of exponential growth with multipliers, though, we don't want cekugob costing 20000 14:27:01 golgepapaz: those numbers are not possible and yes, we made them grow quadratically in enchantment yesterday 14:27:14 nrook: with factors so small, I wouldn't worry 14:27:17 +12 armour enchantment is possible 14:27:27 I never get those :( 14:27:34