00:17:54 Eldritch Tentacle from Malign Gateway spell blinked by arrow of dispersal... (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3958) by Twilight 00:32:36 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:45:55 -!- ophanim has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:58:07 Typing "Herp" as name closes / crashes crawl. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3959) by fizzding 01:27:10 o_O 01:35:58 -!- Pseudonut has joined ##crawl-dev 01:57:11 -!- bmh_asleep is now known as bmh 01:57:18 kilobyte: got the file just fine, thanks. 02:08:44 it's *enormous* 02:41:07 hi 02:43:24 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:45:29 -!- purge has quit [Quit: .] 02:48:18 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: bmh] 03:15:28 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 03:20:45 Good day! 03:20:52 good eve! 03:21:09 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 03:29:38 due: hi, I'm about to go to bed but I thought I'd remind you about the tourney announcement first, since I didn't get to it myself today... 03:29:44 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 4.0.1/20110413222027]] 03:32:18 it'd be good to get 0.8.1 out in 1-2 days so greensnark or rax would have time to install it 03:32:43 there are hardly any crash fixes, but I need to replace the binaries on SF anyway due to a compiler bug 03:34:12 new mingw produces executables that don't work on win2k and xp sp0; I fixed and reported it to mingw guys 03:36:04 kilobyte: btw, what's the process for maintaining the 0.8 branch? If I fix a bug, should I "cherry pick" the commit to the 0.8 branch myself? 03:42:04 in 0.7 there was a single cherry-picker, but that didn't work well and it turned into disrepair 03:42:24 so it might be a better idea to cherry pick fixes yourself 03:43:45 ok, I'll try to not forget. 03:44:29 we should make it official on c-r-d so that everybody does. 03:46:02 lemme pick recent ones 03:54:17 elliptic: oh, thanks! 03:54:19 ??toournament 03:54:20 I don't have a page labeled toournament in my learndb. 03:54:21 ??tournament 03:54:22 tournament[1/4]: The 0.8 tourney will be 00:00 Sat 14 May - 00:00 Mon 30 May. See http://crawl11.dyndns.org/ for the rules. 03:55:47 !learn edit tournament[1] s|http.*$|http://crawl.develz.org/tournament for the rules.| 03:55:48 tournament[1/4]: The 0.8 tourney will be 00:00 Sat 14 May - 00:00 Mon 30 May. See http://crawl.develz.org/tournament for the rules. 03:56:40 (Napkin set up forwarding from an easier to remember address) 03:56:49 ah nice 03:58:13 Looks like we lack CIA? 03:58:22 moin guys 03:58:35 Keskitalo: been down for a while 03:58:41 yeah, i'm getting smtp errors delivering the changes emails 03:58:57 cia@cia.vc 03:58:58 SMTP error from remote mail server after RCPT TO:: 03:58:58 host cia.vc [173.236.231.49]: 554 5.7.1 : 03:59:39 "Sorry, CIA is down indefinitely." 03:59:41 irgs 04:00:29 let's make Gretell do the same lines here? 04:00:46 it's already watching announements.log 04:01:35 http://cia.vc 04:01:35 ... indefinitely? 04:02:04 not sure how to add irc-colors though 04:02:48 I can't remember either. 04:03:55 monster has them, reading that is easier than googling for docs 04:04:25 good point 04:07:04 ??tournament 04:07:04 tournament[1/4]: The 0.8 tourney will be 00:00 Sat 14 May - 00:00 Mon 30 May. See http://crawl.develz.org/tournament for the rules. 04:07:43 elliptic: done 04:08:49 http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/tourney-time 04:08:55 please poke if I made a mistake. 04:09:33 "accrue points" 04:09:43 gee, stop making me search the dictionary, due ;-P 04:10:00 "accrue" is a delightful word :) 04:10:17 hehe 04:10:44 just kidding - I like learning new words 04:11:19 Keskitalo: I got 79 points for "ESSIVES" in Scrabble the other day. :) 04:11:20 due: looks great, thanks! the only thing I see is that "any game played on CDO or CAO" should be "any 0.8 game played on CDO or CAO" 04:11:26 elliptic: oh, good point 04:11:39 The dictionary definition is "a noun case in Finnish". 04:13:27 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 04:14:52 fixed 04:16:31 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 05:08:48 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 05:59:36 hi edlothiol! 06:07:59 hi :) 06:20:14 due: essiivi inessiivi allatiivi ablatiivi 06:20:35 Oh Trog, Finnish language lessons from primary school (or so) are suddenly coming back to me 06:22:40 * kilobyte has a feeling Finnish was not descended from proto-human but proto-martian. 06:23:57 Only Finnish could have ... fie locative cases ;) 06:24:14 "Why can't you use prepositions?" "Oh wait... you need suffixes!" 06:24:55 Elastic nounage. 06:25:56 Time to play a little Angry Moth for work-coding inspiration. 06:26:00 ok! 06:26:32 I think I've played through all the weapon combos though.. 06:27:21 -!- syllogism- has joined ##crawl-dev 06:32:19 I haven't played it, just watched the videos, but the homing missiles could make a kick-ass spell: multiple weaker IOODs that can pass through each other. 06:32:19 -!- Twilight13 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:42:04 kilobyte: could start them with very high inertia, and also make them bounce off walls, maybe 06:42:50 there's a limit for inertia though -- having it too high makes no sense when the range is limited to LOS :( 06:43:10 and being able to hit things out of LOS is a no-no unless we seriously upgrade monster AI 06:43:47 oh, i just mean such that - you have them launch in a wide cone/spray, and the ones on the outside edge have to zoom back inwards in a curved pattern 06:44:04 oh, of course 06:44:13 that's the key point :) 06:44:30 another that might work is having them start within ~3 spaces of you, in a ring 06:45:24 or perhaps just having the initial velocity evenly spaced in all directions around you, so some would have to turn around behind your back 06:46:01 I'd have to watch Linley's version again 06:46:45 would naming the spell literally after Linley be too much? 06:49:03 -!- Twilight-1 has joined ##crawl-dev 06:50:15 -!- evilmike has quit [] 06:50:54 nah 06:51:06 we still need transdimensional hellspiders as monsters, too 06:51:36 galehar: do those missile tooltip crashes in tiles affect 0.8? 06:52:15 of course 06:52:30 none of the new spiders have any tloc capabilities 06:52:44 jumping spiders do blink, but it is named "jumping" now 06:53:16 what did the hellspiders do in Linley's games? 06:53:28 spider could do with some actual melee threats 06:53:50 @??wolf spider 06:53:51 wolf spider (16s) | Speed: 15 | HD: 8 | Health: 28-62 | AC/EV: 3/10 | Damage: 2004(medium poison) | Res: 06magic(32) | Vul: 09poison | Chunks: clean/none/unknown | XP: 457. 06:53:54 so something like that would be cool if it hits hard 06:54:52 beh, wolf spiders win vs orc warriors only 2/3 of the time 06:55:35 and 8/99 times vs orc knights 06:55:43 @?emperor scorpion 06:55:43 emperor scorpion (15s) | Speed: 10 | HD: 11 | Health: 41-77 | AC/EV: 5/8 | Damage: 3004(medium poison), 11, 11 | Res: 06magic(44) | Vul: 09poison | Chunks: clean/none/unknown | XP: 898. 06:55:57 Any good? 06:56:07 elephant spider 06:56:34 kilobyte: The hellspiders are large spaceships with several spidery parts, that you have to defeat. The next hellspider grows according to how you destroyed the previous one. 06:56:46 it can trample and has 8 trunks 06:56:48 This sounds a little Boris-like, so I think we should just use the name. 06:57:16 so it gets 8 attacks per turn 06:57:41 ghost moths used to be oy vey gevalt, but got nerfed into small fluffy creatures which drain mana but can't hurt you unless on early Lair 06:57:56 i think having some temporal manipulation, as well as spatial, could be cool 06:58:12 well that's somewhat necessary if they're going to show up in early lair 06:58:40 they sort of suffer from being a zot monster that's also somehow supposed to be appropriate for an early lair portal vault 06:59:11 MarvinPA: they were meant to be targetted to be the biggest enemy in a Lair sub-branch, like greater nagas or javelineers/impalers 06:59:53 they were way harder than any of those 06:59:57 originally 07:00:02 although, why it's me to describe the plans if Keskitalo is here... 07:00:37 fast, poison resistant, invisible, mana draining made them an utter deathtrap against many characters 07:04:07 no they weren't. It's just you met them when you were clearing lair and you meet those when you are doing shoals:5. Which are about 10xls apart 07:04:18 The portal vault thing definitely skews things ... 07:04:35 I think I was intending to not include them in the portal vault for releases, but just forgot about it. 07:04:41 yay pronouns! I think you all got what I mean though 07:06:01 that reminds me, can we do something about spider? it is really awful 07:06:35 i generally have more fun doing even labs than spider 07:07:06 Eronarn: you mean the portal vault? 07:07:11 yeah 07:07:32 imo it's a good idea but it shouldn't be a portal vault. 07:07:59 or rather, not one that appears so early. 07:08:02 Eronarn: What are the problems? 07:08:05 Sure, we can do stuff. 07:08:26 it is such a lottery whether you have rPois when you go in, and it gives you such an advantage 07:08:32 Keskitalo: monster set is boring, and the layouts i've seen are horrible 07:08:32 Removing the portal vault would be a nice quick option - at least the ghost moth maps. 07:08:57 the one with two wings and possibly a ghost moth so heavily favors spoiled players 07:09:17 what is the main blocker for going on with the branch? Just the map generator, or something more? 07:09:28 I haven't looked/played the newer maps not done by me, but the first map looked surprisingly good when I was watching games. 07:09:44 kilobyte: I believe we even have a map generator 07:10:09 Eronarn: The one with two wings was supposed to be symmetric, not-that-spoilable, let me take a look 07:10:17 !source spider.des 07:10:18 Couldn't open current/source/spider.des for reading 07:10:25 !source dat/des/portals/spider.des 07:10:29 Lines pasted to http://paste.scsys.co.uk/103651 07:10:30 Keskitalo: it is way too buggy and too slow, I meant to code it properly but never got around to it 07:10:33 Keskitalo: no... the problem is that you can wander right into trapdoors (or even trapdoor + a moth) 07:10:36 unless you know they're there 07:10:44 Ah, that, yeah, it sucks. 07:11:10 Hmm, I though we got more maps. 07:11:21 and that shouldn't be much work. The algorithm is nice, even if both implementations (Kusigrosz' and by's) are not usable 07:11:30 kilobyte: i see the current spider set as worse than the old shoals monster set fwiw 07:11:43 i think that's where the work should be put in for now 07:11:52 The monster set definitely needs more stuff 07:12:13 kilobyte: Main problem is just lack of push 07:13:22 yeah 07:13:44 the portal vault is way too early to be useful for identifying problems 07:14:19 kilobyte: The maps from by's implementation look great to me; by also said that it is very parametrizable 07:14:27 like, for Forest, I made an encompass vault and placed it on D:20-26, it immediately shown major problems with the monster set 07:14:33 so it'd be great to have that usable 07:15:05 Keskitalo: yeah, it was just a very very quick and dirty hack 07:15:19 kilobyte: I agree with the ghost moth maps, we could split the portal vault between moth maps and spider maps and have the moth maps appear much later 07:15:28 I still think the first map is ok such early 07:15:44 Kusigrosz' implementation works well but uses quirky and hard to read C, so I'll write it from scratch from the algorithm's description 07:15:53 sounds great 07:16:36 I'm don't know how 7hm's maps are balance-wise, I really should play them 07:17:36 Not sure when I get the change of working on anything; if anyone would like to put WEIGHT: 0 into spiders_nest_the_unseen and spiders_nest_ghost_moth_duel for now that'd be great 07:18:09 due: don't you have some small dog sized spiders down under? 07:18:23 then we should think about rebuffing ghost moth so they're more fun in zot 07:19:39 hmm, the xom/card effect that swaps the location of the player and a monster might make for an interesting moth effect 07:20:13 presumably it could also swap monsters too 07:20:14 what about reverting 1e6a7088? 07:21:00 (of course after disabling them from the portal vault) 07:21:34 That'd be fine. 07:23:15 ais523: we can give that to the hellspiders :) 07:24:44 would be cool in combination with a spider that wanted to keep at range 07:24:49 if you close with it, a hellspider takes its place 07:27:15 kilobyte: yes, I think so (missile tooltip crash). 07:28:40 uhm... 99/99 against storm dragons (but only 17/99 against goldens) 07:29:03 for what? old ghost moth? 07:30:22 yeah. 5/99 vs pandemonium lord, 57/99 vs greater naga 07:30:30 told you :) 07:30:34 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 07:30:46 the original stats were really quite beastly 07:30:51 completely inappropriate for something in lair 07:31:00 which is why i complained so much about them 07:32:52 Morning 07:33:06 kilobyte: are those arena stats? 07:33:40 20/99 vs pearl dragons! 2/99 vs orbs of fire. 11/99 vs orb guardians. 07:33:42 ais523: yeah 07:34:02 * kilobyte meows at Cryp71c. 07:36:16 varies nicely 07:38:04 @??ghost moth 07:38:04 ghost moth (06y) | Speed: 12 | HD: 10 | Health: 39-73 | AC/EV: 10/10 | Damage: 805(drain dexterity), 805(drain dexterity), 1204(poison, drain dex) | Flags: fly | Res: 06magic(80), 02cold, 03poison | Chunks: 06mutagenic | XP: 972. 07:40:38 now I'm trying to think of mothlike abilities that are interesting from other games 07:40:42 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 07:40:45 one that redirects all attacks at the moth would work well 07:40:49 although only really in a mob 07:40:55 kilobyte: Lower the melee damage a bit if you like; they should really be a little less threatening against heavy-armoured characters. 07:41:02 (that is, if you use any attack, spell, etc, and it could target the moth, it does) 07:41:23 one that prevents you repeating an attack you use against the moth while it's alive and in LOS could work interestingly too 07:41:42 (that is, if you hit it with a sword, it dodges all future sword attacks; likewise, if you cast a spell at it, you can't hit it with the same spell again) 07:42:16 too gimmicky 07:42:39 I've got to say that I really like playing webtiles 07:42:55 Keskitalo: how much a "bit" is? 07:43:15 new 8, old 24 07:44:13 @??moth of wrath 07:44:13 moth of wrath (04y) | Speed: 12 | HD: 9 | Health: 34-67 | AC/EV: 0/10 | Damage: 2505(rage) | Flags: fly | Res: 06magic(36) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 502. 07:44:22 I wonder what'd be a good comparison monster.. 07:44:58 kind of weird that they have such different stats 07:45:06 I think stat drain poison for the stinger is good, better than strong poison btw 07:45:28 stat drain poison does basically nothing right now 07:45:51 -!- edlothiol has left ##crawl-dev 07:46:01 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 07:46:18 really? slight problem, but in principle more stat drain is good :P 07:46:21 moths of wrath do totally nothing for Zot chars 07:46:31 (except berserking stuff, of course) 07:46:39 -!- edlothiol has quit [Quit: edlothiol] 07:46:53 @??quasit 07:46:53 quasit (155) | Speed: 13 | HD: 3 | Health: 6-24 | AC/EV: 5/17 | Damage: 305(drain dexterity), 205(drain dexterity), 205(drain dexterity) | Flags: 05demonic | Res: 06magic(5), 05fire, 02cold, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 45. 07:47:05 i've never taken more than like 5 statdrain from a quasit 07:47:07 @?? merfolk impaler 07:47:07 merfolk impaler (12m) | Speed: 10 (swim: 60%; atk: 60%) | HD: 12 | Health: 69-99 | AC/EV: 0/18 | Damage: 26 | Flags: amphibious | Res: 06magic(48), 12drown | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 1072. 07:47:08 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 07:47:20 and those are proportionally a lot harder to kill than anything in zot, when you run into them 07:47:45 Eronarn: That's not stat drain **poison**, but I agree the stat drain attacks should be looked at 07:47:46 -!- edlothiol has left ##crawl-dev 07:47:55 Keskitalo: pretty sure they use the same code 07:48:03 there should be varieties which drain stats even if they don't deal damage 07:48:13 i think the stat drain poison is literally just 'do stat drain' 'do poison' 07:48:44 I think that's what's keeping them from draining stats noticeably - the attack power is so low 07:48:51 same with jellyfish 07:49:00 Eronarn: Ah, ok 07:49:06 I thought it was poison-resistable stat drain 07:49:18 so, ghost moths at their steamrolling 24? 07:49:28 kilobyte: I don't have an answer what it should be, 24 is fine for now 07:49:28 kilobyte: do they get that on each of 3 attacks or what 07:49:33 let's see what happens in Zot :) 07:49:42 @?? orb guardian 07:49:42 Orb Guardian (06X) | Speed: 14 | HD: 15 | Health: 61-102 | AC/EV: 13/13 | Damage: 45 | Flags: see invisible | Res: 06magic(120), 12drown | XP: 3884. 07:50:04 kilobyte: Or try 18 if I have to pull something out of the hat 08:01:30 kilobyte: Thanks for the gnoll foo corpse fix 08:04:09 kilobyte: Thanks for the moth tweaks too. 08:04:13 Severe lack of CIA :) 08:12:57 yeah, servere mass of "undelivered email" in my mailbox :D 08:13:06 *severe ;) 08:15:25 The shadow tile is a little hard to see. 08:17:02 and it's also difficult to tell if sky beasts are confused 08:18:32 -!- Stefan___ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:20:55 it doesn't seem like pikel's freed slaves remember felids after they're resurrected 08:22:00 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: Page closed] 08:32:41 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 08:34:45 Keys are being ignored (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3961) by Napkin 08:34:45 Leaving spectator-mode in Firefox closes the websocket (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3960) by Napkin 08:35:25 regarding spider nest monsters, I put a few proposals on the wiki ages ago: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:dungeon:branch:spider&s[]=spider#monsters 08:36:13 @??ghost moth 08:36:14 ghost moth (06y) | Speed: 12 | HD: 13 | Health: 50-90 | AC/EV: 16/10 | Damage: 1805(drain strength), 18, 1205(strong poison) | Flags: fly | Res: 06magic(104), 02cold, 03poison | Chunks: 06mutagenic | XP: 3467. 08:37:44 dpeg specifically liked the egg-laden spider/swarm of spider hatchlings idea 08:40:42 -!- Stefan___ has left ##crawl-dev 08:42:33 Wensley: i have swarms of spiders implemented 08:42:35 they even cling 08:42:41 so they can cross water 08:42:57 oh sweet 08:43:58 so now we need to implement wielding shoes 08:44:00 i'd like for demonic crawlers to pop when you kill them, turning into a swarm 08:44:06 and scrolls of paper 08:45:40 what would the monster set for a potential spider:5 look like? 08:47:02 do we need some sort of ascendedly-intelligent spider, like how snake has guardian serpents and nagas? 08:47:21 spider-man, spider-man, he can do anything a spider-can 08:48:41 only uniques were proposed so far 08:48:57 oh right, I did actually put a proposal for a transdimensional hellspider on the wiki 08:49:04 but then, there's nothing intelligent in Swamp as well 08:49:22 (and in halfling lands) 08:50:36 ...halfling branch? 08:52:14 a branch in which the ceiling is three feet off the ground, large races must crawl around at reduced speed 08:52:31 no, I mean, the monster/player set should follow the branch and cease to exist :p 08:52:56 Wensley: if you go there at breakfast time, you can stab all of them while they are eating 08:53:05 and it's always breakfast time down there 08:53:16 galehar: sounds like a replacement for hive, then 08:53:26 stab sleeping dudes, get all their food 08:53:30 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:53:46 kilobyte: I'm not in disagreement :P 08:53:53 @??halfling 08:53:54 halfling (15@) | Speed: 10 | HD: 3 | Health: 6-15 | AC/EV: 2/12 | Damage: 6 | Res: 06magic(8) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 30. 08:55:06 the current desc is too mild for them, too 08:55:32 what's the draw for playing a halfling? is it the rmut? the slings? 08:55:35 "This is a degenerate human, both mentally and physically similar to a child of perhaps ten, perhaps twelve years of age, yet looking older. It looks mischievous, as if prone to no good. It definitely deserves an axe to the head." 08:55:45 hahaha 08:56:07 I'm hoping that last sentence is where its resistances and such should go 08:56:41 (give halflings rAxe- 08:56:48 <3 08:57:30 as far as having a race with inherent rmut, I think there's been a proposal in bad_ideas for a cockroach race... 08:57:45 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:58:08 too similar to existing halflings :p 08:58:59 but wait! cockroaches can live with their heads cut off, so, uh, this race could live until its hp is equal to its negative max HP ("you are very hard to kill") 08:59:11 of course there is. Just try to find a race that hasn't been proposed as a player race in bad_ideas. I'll go make a 15 runes win playing blind while you're looking. 09:00:39 the cockroach race could scuttle under doors without opening them, and have a compulsory fear effect for any creature with a halo of light! 09:08:46 if spider ever did become its own branch, would the lair lottery be (choose two of spider, swamp, snake, shoals) or (choose one of spider, snake and one of swamp, shoals)? I guess what I'm asking is, are spider/snake supposed to be the poison branches, with swamp/shoals as the water branches? 09:09:36 There should be plenty of water (etc) in Spider too, for clinging. 09:09:43 ah, good point 09:10:10 or they could simply be bottomless pits, rather than water 09:10:18 -!- ophanim has joined ##crawl-dev 09:11:01 That'd be a nice anti-merfolk option. 09:11:20 it would be hard to explain why you can't float down that pit to explore it 09:11:25 where bottomless pits simply act as deep water, except swimming doesn't help 09:12:25 Well, floating could be explained (can't control altitude) but controlled flight is harder. :) 09:12:32 kilobyte: I think there are enough idiosyncrasies with having dungeon levels stacked vetically, especially shoals :) but in any case, I was intending to propose bottomless pits for the dwarven halls, where the idea is they have strong updrafts, blowing you up to a previous level if you levitate over them 09:13:13 this was part of a more comprehensive proposal so it's not as broken as it sounds out of context 09:13:29 plane of air :p 09:14:43 that could work as a late portal vault, since an air-themed hell seems like a bit of stretch 09:15:28 although I suppose dante's inferno had a layer that was just a giant tornado, filled with fornicating couples... 09:15:43 (or perhaps I am misremembering) 09:19:11 -!- Uncrawl has joined ##crawl-dev 09:28:20 Can make one up.. 09:28:50 Could also be a pan level type 09:32:04 I'm imagining an entirely open, circular level with an enormous ongoing tornado spell in its center, with monsters and debris whirling around at enormous speeds 09:38:21 that sounds cool! 09:43:09 "You see here a portal to Tempest, the tornadic hell" 09:50:34 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:51:23 Yay, Linley is promising a new Angry Moth demo in a few days.. hope it has a new stage or several, I feel I've played the earlier demo through. :) 09:52:06 maybe we should have a monster to reference each of linley's games 09:52:21 we already have moths of wrath and the demonic crawler :P 09:58:57 so while we're on the topic of linley, is there a page somewhere on the wiki that discusses moving crawl to a new license? 09:59:21 specifically, choice of new licenses and impediments to shedding the old one? 10:00:06 What license are we under now? 10:00:25 I think it's linley's version of the nethack license 10:00:33 ok 10:00:49 there was a lot of discussion about this last year, but I don't remember specifics (which is why a wiki page would be nice) 10:02:04 kilobyte sneakily committed a GPL2 licence already 10:02:05 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 10:02:14 someone should blog about it or something :P 10:02:24 pits don't even have to be bottomless 10:02:31 they can just be shaft-like :) 10:02:32 I'd like to know what that *means*, though, since I'm not an expert on licenses 10:02:41 <-- understatement 10:02:46 naturally, falling down one lands you right into a spider web 10:02:56 so if you dive to the bottom that way, you are covered in boss spiders 10:03:13 Eronarn: I love the idea of shafts that surround you with spiders when you emerge 10:04:09 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 10:04:33 Wensley: We already have white butterflies I believe ;) 10:04:52 what could be interesting... tiny little rock islands, connected by webby strands 10:05:08 would be a very neat layout 10:05:22 the strands are walkable, but sticky (impaired move/attack), and you might get stuck on any given turn (like netted) depending on dex 10:05:46 not sure it should impair attack, but definitely movement and stickiness 10:08:06 you could also use the small tunnels idea for this - so sometimes a level of spider is tiny rock islands with webs connecting them, other times, it is tiny webby crevices conecting rooms 10:08:40 in the absence of walls to cling to, spiders could instead cling to the sides of the web walkways, putting them over the pits/shafts, and allowing spiders to get around you and surround you on the one-tile-wide walkways 10:10:30 so I'm kind of concerned that having an insect branch might be too easy compared to snake etc. since rpois not only reduces much of the threat, but allows you to indiscriminately use powerful poison spells that spiders are susceptible to. what if there was a spider that had a bite that temporarily reduced your level of rpois, sort of like cerebov's sword? 10:11:42 also have strong poison going through rpois 10:11:44 snake is mostly hard because snake 5 10:11:54 and that's not hard because of the poison 10:12:15 poison arrow does a ton of damage so you want rpois 10:12:32 casmith789: I didn't intend for the reduction in rpois to enable spiders to poison you, I intended it so that you couldn't cast poison cloud/meph on yourself while strolling indiscriminately through the branch 10:12:52 yes but I did :P 10:13:12 the fact that all spiders would be able to poison you is just a happy coincidence :) 10:14:48 I've also had in mind a much-too-involved system of improved poisons with different effects, but I think that it would get shot down :P 10:23:38 it would be good to have less stuff that relies on poison to kill you 10:24:03 Wensley: let's say I didn't go completely strict with people who didn't respond or who are listed only as nicknames without an address wrt the relicensing. But then, rewriting minor contributions if needed wouldn't be that hard. 10:24:48 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 10:25:07 kilobyte: does that mean we're officially relicensed, then? if not, what steps still need to be taken? 10:26:05 we are 10:28:37 very exciting :D 10:29:11 I'm impressed that a project with that many contributors managed relicensing 10:29:19 I hope my own response to the query wasn't too confusing 10:29:52 supposedly it took angband nine years to finish relicensing, I was afraid we'd see the same thing 10:37:15 they managed it eventually? 10:37:29 luckily NetHack's had a decent open source license more or less from the start, even if it's very outdated 10:37:39 (I mentally think of it as GPL 0, it's more permissive than 2 or 3) 10:39:30 -!- Cryp71c_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:39:38 uhm no, it's anything but decent 10:40:22 it is the original bison's license... and save for one word difference, it was also Crawl's license 10:40:27 sigh, now I have to fucking change my password.. 10:40:30 pardon the language. 10:40:38 ohwait, nvm. 10:40:44 /ignore me 10:40:49 (don't really plz) 10:41:06 -!- Cryp71c_ is now known as Cryp71c 10:41:17 it forbids such tiny details as adding ANY outside code under a license other than Nethack's or public domain 10:52:41 erisdiscordia the Slicer (L15 VpSt) ASSERT(smc) in 'mon-util.cc' at line 2425 failed on turn 48238. (Shoals:4) 10:53:01 !lm erisdiscordia type=crash -log 10:53:01 2. erisdiscordia, XL15 VpSt, T:48238 (milestone): http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/erisdiscordia/crash-erisdiscordia-20110512-155240.txt 11:06:01 kilobyte: seriously? I thought it also allowed adding stuff which was as permissively licensed as two- or one-clause BSD 11:06:10 it just denies any extra restrictions 11:06:17 but it's fine adding things that have a subset of its restrictions 11:08:23 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:16:08 ais523: no, that's why Bison was relicensed just a few months later 11:16:22 ah, I see 11:17:05 the "subset of restrictions" thingy is the main difference between Old Bison and GPLv1 11:17:32 erm, wow. Linux is really getting to me. 11:17:52 I went to edit a learndb entry and was thinking "editing takes sudo rights" and started to type "sudo !learndb edit..." 11:17:59 -_ 11:18:10 haha 11:18:20 you know you should use sudoedit for that sort of thing, right? 11:18:39 it avoids having to give root privs to the editor 11:20:41 mmm, I'll keep that in mind. 11:20:57 Does it just use the default editor for the filetype? 11:21:50 it uses the EDITOR environment variable 11:22:03 which it's normally a good idea to set first if you don't want to end up in nano or vi by default 11:22:17 what's exactly the point of sudo? 11:23:05 it has one legitimate use: as poor man's setuid wrapper, if it's set to allow using a specific program 11:23:05 the major advantage is to stop you doing things you probably didn't want to do by mistake 11:23:42 things -- as in, stuff that needs root? 11:24:12 yep 11:24:12 su does just the same, yet is more convenient to use 11:24:28 it's very rare to do just one thing as root 11:24:36 really? 11:24:48 also, convenience doesn't really come into it when I'm working as root 11:24:51 you either do nothing with administrative rights for a long time, or do a number of things in a row 11:24:55 I do updates a lot 11:24:59 they normally need just the one command 11:25:22 likewise, installs to /usr are just sudo make install, after you've done the build 11:25:31 (or /usr/local or whatever other systemwide folder you want) 11:26:30 I can't recall the last time I did "make install" as root 11:26:43 last time for me was testing one of my own build systems 11:26:49 (and I do it many times a day with fakeroot, inside a script) 11:26:53 another example is recovering a crashed NetHack game on a multiplayer system 11:27:14 right, that's one of reasons Crawl dropped setgid 11:27:30 there's no reason to need root rights just to unwedge a game 11:27:51 kilobyte, I'll regularly configure stuff as a regular user, make it as a regular user, then make install as root and that's the only thing I do. 11:27:54 several NetHack ports can unwedge a game using their own setgid, but the official UNIX version is lagging behind 11:28:36 Sometimes I do root actions in a series, but not very frequently. I much more often only perform one thing as root in a series of related commands. 11:28:40 I modified AceHack to be more resilient to recovered games 11:29:15 just like Crawl, it regenerates messed-up level files 11:29:22 although spouts warnings as it does so 11:29:51 ais523: if you find any crasher bug in Nethack that lets you somehow execute your code (like, most buffer overflows), you can take over the "games" gid 11:30:09 and from that, any user who dares to run Nethack 11:30:24 kilobyte: indeed, except I don't think the game has write access to its own executable 11:30:45 -!- CIA-57 has joined ##crawl-dev 11:31:00 although most known buffer overflows are not exploitable for arbitrary code on any platform 11:31:12 the best I've found is one that, on DOS, allows me to jump to an arbitrary address that starts with 0x2e 11:31:20 but unfortunately there's nothing useful at any of those addresses 11:31:29 you'd need to edit something that is writable by that gid 11:31:32 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 11:31:47 CIA-57: <3 11:38:17 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:51:47 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 12:01:21 -!- CIA-57 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:04:36 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 12:08:48 exit 12:08:55 or not! 12:10:55 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 12:18:21 -!- CIA-57 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:33:48 pruned a bit, increased the line spacing and applied unicode where appropriate https://sites.google.com/site/cherrypickedbadideas/ 12:45:45 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 12:59:45 Wakko (L1 DEWz) (D:1) 13:04:06 -!- ortoslon has quit [Quit: bye] 13:08:43 -!- eith has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:39:04 should Duvessa berserk if she's confused when Dowan dies? 13:40:26 did she? 13:40:32 she did 13:40:42 it sort-of makes flavour sense, at least 13:41:16 balancewise, it's very disadvantageous for her to 'zerk while she's still confused 13:41:40 as the player would trivially just run away? 13:41:52 yeah 13:44:01 I thought that berserk gave you a clarity effect 13:44:15 but thinking about this I have no idea why I think it is true 13:44:44 kilobyte, FYI, my combat rewrite is getting into the "meaty" changes of moving the big parts of combat around, but if we ever want this code to be truely "unified" we're going to have to make player/monster combat more identical in functionality. 13:45:57 bmh, if you change that, you should also change her so that she's a bit more difficult to confuse after berserk, I think I've had a game or two which trivialized my encounter with her just by confusing her post-berserk. 13:46:19 Cryp71c: I just wiped out her and Dowan and an orc mob with a couple evaporates 13:46:46 speaking of evaporate, I hate to say it, but I think it's overpowered 13:47:17 Cryp71c: several of the differences in functionality really don't need to exist 13:47:22 like calculating penalties differently for invis 13:49:34 ??evaporate 13:49:35 evaporate[1/3]: Converts a potion into a cloud of nastiness. Very useful until late game, especially for miasma (from decay or degeneration). A ghost with evaporate receives meph instead. 13:49:56 bmh, ah, yeah. Its quite powerful early on and quite useless later on, I guess the latter isn't a big deal. 13:49:57 meph on steroids. 13:50:10 bmh, meph with "choose your type of cloud" on steroids. 13:50:28 Cryp71c: sure, it may not be useful later, but it trains transmutation 13:50:49 bmh, well, yeah. and that's not much of apoint since low level spells should clearly be less useful past orc(ish) 13:51:05 but evaporate is still quite useful, even down into the 20s of D, if not further. 13:51:11 Its been a while since I had a TM char in that range. 13:51:49 Eronarn, I'll take a look and make a list of "minor differences in functionality" to propose should be merged. 13:52:03 evaporating a pot of mutation can also make hydras easy to kill 13:54:11 evaporate is pretty broken 13:54:14 so is meph though 13:54:23 sheesh. the RNG is a on a roll. It's given me 4 rings of protection! 13:54:24 cloud spells in general should be weaker 13:54:30 OP? 13:54:38 OP? 13:54:54 bmh, poor seeding, I've had a few games like that, methinks its less "on a roll" and something more sinister. 13:54:58 bmh, overpowered. 13:55:01 bmh: but pots of mutation are rarer than hydras unless you're in vaults, in which case you shouldn't be worrying about hydras 13:55:03 Eronarn, yes, they should. 13:55:14 Cryp71c: no such thing as poor seeding anymore. The new RNG doesn't have bad states like MT 13:55:26 bmh, when'd the new rng go in? 13:55:26 Wensley: they're easy to distill from anything mutagenic 13:55:34 bmh, in time for 8, or just trunk? 13:55:34 Cryp71c: a few weeks ago 13:55:42 bmh: not sure what's mutagenic early on, sky beasts, and what else? 13:55:45 don't know 13:55:51 Wensley: sky beasts, namely. 13:55:55 mimics? 13:55:57 @?? mimic 13:55:58 potion mimic (16!) | Speed: 10 | HD: 8 | Health: 29-59 | AC/EV: 5/1 | Damage: 1208(poison), 12, 12 | Flags: 11non-living | Res: 06magic(32), 05fire, 02cold, 10elec, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | XP: 464. 13:56:02 mimcs leave corpses? 13:56:08 perhaps not 13:56:29 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 13:56:47 I've got to say, I love the idea of evaporate as a very versatile spell, and I'd hate to see it go. making it less powerful would be fine, though, although a direct nerf to the spell might not be necessary 13:57:39 meph cloud effects might simply have less of a chance to impart confusion, or have the confusion duration reduced 13:57:44 Wensley, not remote, nerf imo. 13:58:01 Meph already got nerfed, I think in 0.7 when the range got cut down 13:58:27 Wensley: probably the best nerf for evap is something like it only affecting squares chance-based, and effects of clouds not lasting muhc beyond leaving the clouds 13:58:37 confusion can last for a very, very long time after a cloud ends 13:58:40 Wensley: if you want to see evap being over powered -- watch my game (bh on CDO) 13:58:51 Eronarn: I like that solution 13:58:58 what about making Evap miss? 13:58:57 i am hoping my alchemy proposal gets in, which would also help 13:59:05 bmh: wouldn't make sense 13:59:15 there's a key you can press to fire and stop at a certain tile 13:59:36 -!- cesium has joined ##crawl-dev 13:59:49 sure -- you could make it fall long or short with some chance 14:00:09 evap+distill is definitely overpowered... simplest nerf would probably be to make it not affect a full 3x3 square 14:00:25 give it a 50% chance of leaving a cloud on each square or something 14:01:03 evaporate is overpowered and boring 14:01:20 it also doesn't really fit St or Tm 14:01:30 evaporate is very interesting 14:01:41 I agree that it might not fit tm 14:01:49 stalkers are just weird right now 14:01:58 elliptic: I'd make it something like 75% center square, 50% neighboring 14:02:24 could also depend on power 14:02:31 I think in that case, it should also have a 10% chance of effecting squares outside the normal 3x3 14:02:37 *affecting 14:02:39 meph needs a nerf also though and should probably be nerfed first 14:02:53 make players think about their 'trick shots' 14:04:33 we could also nerf distill 14:04:54 how 14:05:01 why? it's not a very good spell 14:05:14 casmith789: it is when it's powering evap 14:05:24 Right now I can turn orcs and goblins into pots of confusino 14:05:31 distill isn't the problem aside from mutation potions, and there is already a plan about that 14:05:34 if it was instead a chance based on HD it might be balanced 14:05:46 yes but potions of confusion are junk 14:06:04 distill is *only* good for powering evaporate 14:06:13 and victory dancing I guess 14:06:38 You need corpses to cast it. You can't really dance it. 14:06:41 and not even for vd once xp allocation gets changed 14:06:44 zchris13: wrong 14:06:47 use Z 14:06:48 you do not need corpses to cast it 14:06:51 what? 14:07:01 ZChris13 is not a very effective dancer 14:07:04 Very sorry, then. 14:07:19 casmith789: my plan is to have evap be for the new alchemist class, and stalker / tmut both get something different 14:07:20 shame on you for not knowing the most efficient means of gaming the sytem 14:07:22 tmut should be more about... tmuting 14:07:24 not exploding 14:07:27 * bmh dances distill 14:07:34 alchemist sounds boring then :P 14:07:35 I knew that worked for conjurations, didn't know about distillation. 14:07:51 Also all crawl should be about exploding. 14:07:57 explosion mage 14:07:58 casmith789: nah, it would be with the evap nerf 14:08:01 Wensley: hey, I always use Z to cast. So it just happens like that 14:08:05 and with ignite poison in the same book 14:08:16 poisonous cloud? 14:08:38 my current plan was: distill, evap, ignite poison, new spell that lets you throw rocks that explode like exploding ammo, new spell that turns walls to acid 14:08:44 casmith789: come to think of it, is there any reason that everyone wouldn't just want to use Z to cast? 14:08:45 so really destructive, but non-conj 14:09:05 people who don't want to cast if they don't have a target 14:09:14 focusing on earth and fire and alchemy 14:09:51 then stalker would get a spell that's actually stealthy and not one that makes a goddamn oisy explosion seriously wtf 14:09:56 tmut would get one that is actually about changing your own or something els'es shape, rather than making an explosion 14:10:02 casmith789: I don't see why that would really be an issue, as long as you get a prompt before targeting yourself 14:10:08 you do 14:10:14 right, I know 14:10:20 I have (once) sticky flamed myself 14:10:24 that was fun 14:10:30 for strategic purposes 14:10:33 I meant to cast meph on myself 14:10:43 so I instinctively said yes to the prompt 14:11:08 I'm sure the monsters were amused 14:11:13 hope you were worshiping xom 14:11:26 sadly not. 14:11:34 xom doesn't care about that anyway probably 14:13:56 never underestimate the power of a confused crocodile to kill everything in the room. 14:14:21 FR: orb of elecrocodile 14:15:17 gah I go away for 10 minutes and dev explodes. 14:16:46 alchemy at work 14:18:56 (acidify water might be another neat spell, now that I think of it...) 14:20:44 -!- CIA-57 has quit [] 14:22:09 -!- ophanim has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:23:54 acidify water: does nominal damage to fleshy things on land, does large damage to things standing in water? 14:24:22 fog clouds -> acid clouds 14:24:56 water elementals -> acid elementals 14:27:12 no, it'd just damage water elementals a lot 14:27:37 like ignite poison, but for water instead of poison, and acid instead of fire 14:28:58 Eronarn: call it "Hydrodissociation" 14:29:44 although that's not entirely accurate 14:30:22 FR: basic walls to complement acidic walls 14:32:17 call them alkaline 14:33:12 that eliminates the surprise. "oh what's this... hm, it's just a basic wall AAGH MY LIFE" 14:34:38 aqua vitriol! 14:35:07 or i could go for a chem reference 14:35:13 Cooh's Acidification 14:35:19 -!- CIA-60 has joined ##crawl-dev 14:36:40 Erorarn: alchemist spells should always attempt antiquated chemistry references 14:37:32 lumeniferous aether! 14:37:44 (we can totally do a real ligature for unicode-users) 14:38:03 phlogiston 14:38:06 (also, make borgnjor's have umlauts) 14:38:23 or ø 14:38:23 umlauts are the best 14:38:34 yep 14:38:34 börgnjör sounds retarded. 14:38:41 umlaut over the j 14:38:43 FYI 14:38:48 umlauts over everything 14:38:55 just a giant umlaut 14:39:01 ghallberg: That's what I've been trying to say before 14:39:11 overline the entire word 14:39:25 Keskitalo: are you familiar with the metal umlaut? 14:39:26 over tje j could be ok, cause I don't know icelandic :P 14:39:27 * Cryp71c disregards your funny accent marks. That reads "borg" "nuh" "jors" to me. 14:39:44 it is there merely to make it look cooler, and is not pronounced 14:39:45 Eronarn: That looks silly aswell. 14:39:47 Eronarn: whatever 14:40:13 and borgnjor sounds like a black metal band name 14:40:32 we need to get making a wizlab for every named wizard 14:40:50 I'm calling maxwell's foundry 14:41:01 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 14:41:03 Necromancy is actually just rock and roll. All great rockers are actually liches 14:41:29 Metal umlauts are ridiculous. End of story. 14:41:32 b̈ör̈g̈n̈j̈ör̈ 14:41:42 ghallberg: Indeed 14:42:26 Motörhead. lol 14:44:25 I wouldn't really mind say Iskenderün, but Borgnjor sounds actually scandinavian, the ö is just making a mess out of it. 14:44:58 FR: rename Agony to Spın̈al Tap 14:45:02 Iskenderôn 14:45:16 My earlier "whatever" was uncalled for, sorry Eronarn. (But we went through this already!) 14:45:32 Iskenderún, more like 14:46:20 considering how multinational the crawl community is, I think it's high time for some diacritics 14:48:03 I can't really comment on anything that isn't supposed to sound scandinavic. 14:48:08 ískéñdèrüñ 14:48:44 Keskitalo: no, it's okay :) i realize not everyone has the same idea of humor 14:48:47 (see also 'bipolar bear') 14:48:52 ees-kuh-en-ya-duh-air-oon-ya 15:02:26 I think Henzell has a bug. I killed Sonja and Grum on the same turn and he only reported my Sonja kill 15:06:15 -!- galehar has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:09:52 bmh: not all milestones are reported by the bots 15:10:06 upsy: ok. I thought all uniques were 15:10:09 !lm bmh 15:10:09 1281. [2011-05-12] bh the Gouger (L11 FeTm) killed Erica on turn 22983. (Orc:3) 15:10:18 !lm bmh uniq=grum 15:10:18 7. [2011-05-12] bh the Gouger (L11 FeTm) killed Grum on turn 21716. (Orc:2) 15:10:44 it just got too spammy for early uniques i think 15:27:56 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:43:47 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 15:57:56 -!- purge has joined ##crawl-dev 15:58:26 Sabaki the Chopper (L4 HuCr) ASSERT(you.equip[slot] == delay.parm1) in 'delay.cc' at line 995 failed on turn 2281. (D:2) 15:58:44 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: bmh] 16:04:34 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:07:42 -!- ophanim has joined ##crawl-dev 16:35:02 -!- syllogism- has quit [] 16:37:52 -!- GrimmSweeper has joined ##crawl-dev 16:58:49 Sabaki the Chopper (L4 HuCr) ASSERT(you.equip[slot] == delay.parm1) in 'delay.cc' at line 995 failed on turn 2167. (D:3) 17:02:29 Dowan can't be pacified unless Duvessa is pacified first (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3962) by cesium 17:03:37 -!- xyblor has joined ##crawl-dev 17:04:04 FR: The level below you and the level above you are "active": monsters can spawn and travel freely among active levels. Noise travels across active levels. 17:04:16 has there been any discussion about this already? 17:04:26 I haven't found anything on the devwiki 17:09:14 Sabaki the Chopper (L4 HuCr) ASSERT(you.equip[slot] == delay.parm1) in 'delay.cc' at line 995 failed on turn 2172. (D:3) 17:21:34 -!- ophanim has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:22:36 from show resistances (%) screen, remove (the same) piece of equipment 2x, exit show resistances, crash (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3963) by igomadness 17:25:09 kilobyte: kinda -- don't remind me :/ 17:25:20 -!- ophanim has joined ##crawl-dev 17:26:34 kilobyte: I was once greeted by a spider the size of both my hands -- comfortable perched on the wall directly in front of my face, next to my bed. 17:26:40 (when i woke up one morning) 17:26:55 the actual *body* wasn't that large, but my *god* the *legs*. 17:27:24 xyblor: It would be nice but it would obligate totally re-doing monster saving, cross-level movement, etc; that would be a *good* thing, thouigh. 17:27:57 due: I'm trying to start a devwiki page on it now 17:28:10 okay 17:28:33 I'm just surprised I haven't found any record of a discussion of it 17:28:47 it seems pretty obvious 17:30:26 obvious or not, it is a significant overhaul 17:31:22 I didn't mean it should obviously be implemented, but it seems like a pretty elementary way to address stair-scumming and make the game world behave a lot more "naturally" 17:33:11 due: in terms of processor load, how bad would it be if every level in the game was active all the time? 17:33:35 uh 17:33:44 pretty bad, right? 17:33:45 processor load, I'm uncertain 17:33:52 but memory-wise it would be quite horrendous 17:33:57 oh right 17:34:04 Monster struct itself is pretty large 17:34:09 so what about if only adjacent levels were active? 17:34:24 or could it be adjacent plus one? 17:34:41 I don't think adjacent would be that bad 17:35:41 one way to address stairscumming would be to increase the range at which monsters are eligible to take stairs, although I'm not sure that we want to totally remove stairscumming or that that's even the best way to address it 17:36:30 for example, why can't greater nagas walk up to snake:4 when you're not around? 17:36:43 (assuming they've been woken up) 17:37:01 xyblor: in that case, I'd argue that they're more occupied in guarding the rune than in hunting you down 17:37:50 the problem is that at some point it might be optimal to just lure all the monsters in a level to one staircase, take it, teleport away as all the monsters from the previous level come up, and then find another staircase down to a newly monster-free level 17:37:50 having a set of monsters that come and seek you out cross-level is an *awesome* idea 17:38:07 but a staircase shouldn't be more of an obstacle than a hallway 17:38:08 Wensley: that is supposed to be an acceptable method 17:38:16 Wensley: so long as the risks are quite severe 17:38:38 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 4.0.1/20110413222027]] 17:39:12 there's also the problem that stairs map to different coordinates on the floor below, so if I make noise at x,y and a monster at x,y on the floor below hears me, what will he do? 17:39:25 good point 17:39:30 projected noise buff 17:40:29 I do agree that some monsters taking stairs to follow you would be good, intelligent humanoids especially, but not if they're guarding something or if they're members of a band. for example, if a band of orcs sees you take a staircase, perhaps they'd erect traps in the spaces all around it and then lie in wait with ranged weapons 17:40:37 -!- ZorbaTHut has quit [*.net *.split] 17:40:37 -!- ion has quit [*.net *.split] 17:42:12 -!- ZorbaTHut has joined ##crawl-dev 17:42:12 -!- ion has joined ##crawl-dev 17:42:19 there was also some talk of making Tomb staircases crumble after a certain number of uses, although I'm not certain how serious those proposals were 17:44:23 the problem is that, if there's a delay in enemies taking a staircase, then it actually becomes much easier to stairscum by going down, hollering at an enemy, then retreating upstairs and taking a defensive position as the enemy or enemies file up the stairs like fish in a barrel 17:44:44 Wensley: yes 17:45:10 also, stairs would no longer be a route to safety 17:46:18 at least with the current system, you have to give the enemies surrounding the staircase two turns of attacks as you come back down, and then if you choose to retreat into the level you're retreating blind, which creates interesting situations 17:48:44 Tomb staircases crumbling is problematic. 17:48:47 xyblor: I think there is still merit in tracking the sound made by a player for the purposes of level above and below. for example, for every square in the level, we could track the amount of noise ever made that centered in that square. then, when you descend and a new level is generated, we could use the noise data from the previous level to determine the likelihood that monsters at those... 17:48:49 ...coordinates have already woken up and are wandering around 17:49:14 you have a problem there though 17:49:26 we'll have to start generating levels before you reach them 17:49:38 yes 17:49:41 which totally fucks up portal vaults 17:49:45 but that's fixable 17:49:52 just don't activate markers until you first come onto the level 17:50:07 due: why? the system I describe goes: enter d:1 -> make noise -> record where noise is made -> enter d:2 -> apply noise data to determine where enemies awaken 17:50:23 Crawl could simply prevents players from going up/down if there are monsters adjacent if the idea is to prevent stair-scumming 17:50:53 It was make V:8 harder though 17:50:57 s/was/would/ 17:51:06 going up/down with enemies adjacent is actually a legitimate strategy in the case of phantoms and imps, and is also very dangerous in any case 17:51:24 cesium: we have no issue with players taking monsters up stairs; it's non-optimal behaviour. 17:51:43 elephants sort of do that when they trample you off stairs 17:51:47 Actually, that's how I clear V:8 with melee chars... 17:51:55 Wensley: because then it would replay all the noise when you arrive on a level. 17:52:08 you don't have to take mummies out of tomb:3 to dance it to death 17:52:09 one of my favorite things ever was when a centaur with dispersal arrows blinked me off the staircase as I came down, with two uniques in sight 17:52:15 03MarvinPA * r4379f2f2957d 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-summoning.cc: Boost Summon Dragon duration, allow two low-tier dragons at high power 17:52:17 Boost Summon Dragon duration, allow two low-tier dragons at high power @ http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=4379f2f2957dcc131e0a522fccbbe591f90956b1 (by Chris Campbell ) 17:52:19 due: is that a problem? 17:52:23 Wensley: yes. 17:52:32 hi uncrawl 17:52:35 we have two bots now? :P 17:52:41 wait, CIA is back? 17:52:46 not sure I understand why, isn't the entire level generated at once? 17:52:50 looks like it 17:53:07 odd 17:53:39 -!- OG17 has quit [Quit: OG17] 17:53:45 I like having Uncrawl though 17:53:50 the commit links are *nice* 17:54:03 heh 17:54:07 yeah, they are cool 17:54:14 weird, ##crawl-dev still gets CIA to report the commits 17:54:19 or rather, ##crawl 17:54:20 CIA's been up and down today a lot (after being shut down forever yesterday :-) 17:54:51 transition pains ofc 17:55:08 uncrawl just uses cdo's rss git feed 17:55:46 it got "shut down forever"! 17:56:10 due: not understanding why replaying noise when arriving on a level is undesirable. is it processor-intensive? 17:56:46 Wensley: because it takes time for monsters to return to normal behaviour after being exposed to noise; we'd have to replay the past X turns of recorded noise 17:58:03 and if we're going to simulate X turns every time the player changes levels, we may as well just run them concurrently 17:58:47 not saying we should simulate turns, per se, only record the noise that occurs and then apply it once when the level is generated. but this is me assuming that applying level-wide noise levels is trivial 17:59:32 i say again: applying the noise is not enough; for "correct" behaviour, you have to simulate the passage of time as well as the application of noise. 17:59:41 -!- OG17 has joined ##crawl-dev 18:02:49 could the noise data simply decay over time as you explore the upper level, and then be applied once when the new level is generated? it's not ideal, but if the end result is still to wake enemies on the floor below where you made the most noise above, then that might be good enough. but if it's not debilitatingly intensive to simulate the entire lower level, then ignore me :P 18:04:14 that still doesn't help 18:04:24 because noise you made 200/500 turns ago will now wake monsters up *now* 18:04:35 rather than 200/500 turns ago and them having 200/500 turns to respond. 18:08:47 but the player doesn't have to know how long it takes for awakened monsters to go back to sleep. if recorded noise decays over time, then fewer monsters will wake, just as though you had simulated the level the whole time, and they'll still wake predominately in the places where you made the most noise most recently. but I'm just trying to propose a solution that's easy to implement, I could... 18:08:48 ...be wrong :) 18:10:53 -!- upsy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:14:10 it's nothing to do with whether or not you're right or wrong about the solution 18:14:27 decaying the noise before applying it does not have the same effect as applying the noise and then allowing time to pass 18:15:02 I didn't say it did, I say it was a workable solution whose main benefit is that it doesn't require full level simulation 18:17:53 Oklobs can be stabbed (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3964) by galehar 18:31:46 -!- Twilight-1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:37:19 -!- Twilight has joined ##crawl-dev 18:37:45 -!- Twilight is now known as Guest91921 18:39:27 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:49:15 -!- lorimer_ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:52:34 -!- lorimer has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:53:28 I made a devwiki page for "What if monsters were active on levels besides the one the player is on?" https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:dungeon:active 18:56:18 -!- ais523 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:19:35 -!- stabwound has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 19:24:11 -!- GrimmSweeper has quit [Quit: Miffed] 19:27:20 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 20:19:18 -!- Kurper has joined ##crawl-dev 20:25:02 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 20:26:25 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Client Quit] 20:33:58 -!- Kurper has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:35:09 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 20:44:03 xyblor: I like where you're coming from, and your rationale on allowing monsters to take stairs is something that I've considered myself, but at the moment the problem is that actions on one level have no effect on other levels, and the fact is that the player has neither the ability to know what's happening on a different level nor a reason to care. 20:44:25 in order to find a scenario where off-level activity is desired, you first need to make the player not only care about off-level events, but also able to affect off-level events in some way. 20:45:40 the biggest impediment to this is that staircases are the only way for the player to interact with two levels within a short time frame, but they don't map to any predictable location on the next level 20:47:05 it is possible to think of situations where off-level information and interaction is important, but it would take a lot of design effort to make it interesting. 20:47:59 for example, a mind link spell that would allow you to control and see through the eyes of an ally on a different level, although you'd have to think of a reason why the player would ever want to do that 20:49:36 multi-level vaults could also be a promising application: imagine a gnoll castle that spans three dungeon levels, with the ramparts on d:X, the keep on d:X-1, and the cellars/dungeons on d:X-2, all occupying the same x.y positions on different levels 20:49:52 that'd be awesome 20:50:22 what if I just paste this block of text into the wiki page? 20:50:26 do it! 20:50:28 :) 20:52:53 done 20:54:22 Wensley: I guess I feel it's more important for the MONSTERS to be able to interact off-level 20:54:54 I can see how players would abuse my suggested system 20:55:27 but at least it replaces non-sensical abuse (stairscumming) with believable abuse 20:57:31 Wensley: Multi-level vaults are an *absolutely* awesome idea. 20:57:44 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:57:48 Something I'd considered before but only as portal vaults 20:58:05 And now that I think about it, it should be *easy* to do multi-level vaults. :D! 20:58:33 Tag them together, whenever you place the first one, push the next one onto a stack, when you generate the next sequential level, generate that map and ensure that the staircases match up. 20:59:15 due: I'm glad you like the idea, I've actually always wanted multi-level gnoll castles in particular :D 20:59:40 Wensley: you say that in my suggested system, actions on one level would have no effect on other levels, but I don't agree: if a monster is chasing you up a staircase, every turn you spend means that the monster below is getting closer to the stairs 21:00:12 due: we'd have to generate levels in between when shafted, but this has been on the TO-DO list for ages 21:01:18 kilobyte: yeah, that's why i said next sequential level :) 21:01:46 I've wanted to do a mini-"branch" that starts on D:5 or so and gets more difficult until D:1 -- you go up it in reverse. 21:02:23 xyblor: the question is, what do they do when they get to the stairs? I agree that the current behavior seems kind of dumb on their behalf, to just wait for you at the bottom, but it would be just as dumb for them to wander blindly up the stairs to their death. perhaps they only take the stairs to follow you if you're very wounded? 21:02:38 I'd still prefer it if orc bands set traps for you :) 21:03:14 if we remove the artificial freezes, stairs are just a form of a corridor 21:03:33 Wensley: I don't see how "wandering blindly" after the player is any different when there is a staircase involved 21:03:45 Auto-Saves No Final Death (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3965) by Blargh 21:04:14 xyblor: monsters such as centaurs and kobolds at least won't follow you blindly around corners any more, which is pretty great 21:04:41 Wensley: they will if they have no other avenue of pursuit 21:05:10 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 21:05:17 which makes sense because they take the less dangerous path to shooting at you 21:05:22 I just want to make sure that players don't abuse any system of having monsters follow you, monsters ought to have a sense of self-preservation as well. and as far as monsters following you around corners, I thought that sometimes monsters would wait for you indefinitely 21:05:53 intelligent monsters don't flee 21:06:02 it's a separate issue from stairs 21:07:11 xyblor: not having all monsters flee is mostly to curb the annoyance factor of chasing monsters down. only allowing monsters to follow you up stairs when you're injured would both make them seem less stupid and prevent idle abuse of ai 21:08:33 ai abuse is going to happen. period. 21:08:41 that's also separate from the stair issue 21:09:35 if you want some monsters marked with a "guardian" flag so they can't desert their post then fine 21:09:54 but they shouldn't treat vertical distance differently from horizontal distance 21:10:01 "patrolling" exists 21:10:32 e.g. orb guardians? 21:12:42 -!- Fangorn_ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:13:23 xyblor: I believe the real question here is, what should a monster do when they see you go up a staircase? at the present moment, they will follow you only if you're adjacent, which seems inconsistent but works for gameplay purposes. but then if you rest to regain health, monsters might dumbly fall asleep next to the staircase. I believe that correcting this second behavior will go a long... 21:13:25 ...way towards correcting the problem, with less effort and less potential abusability 21:14:02 there could be compromises, of course 21:14:13 okay, but then why not apply that logic to hallways as well: they only pursue if you're wounded 21:14:37 I'm not saying you couldn't 21:17:59 but they should do *something*, which is where I believe we could continue working on AI. to re-use my orc band example, when you climb up the staircase, but come down just a few turns later, perhaps they're all in melee range around the staircase, waiting for their leader to decide what to do. perhaps a few turns after you come up, eight orcs and an orc warrior suddenly appear to attack.... 21:18:01 ...perhaps they sent only a single orc up to scout and see if the coast is clear. perhaps they begin erecting traps and setting up an ambush for you. 21:18:50 I think we have to leave trap-making out of this discussion for now 21:19:31 and yes AI could be vastly improved and differentiated 21:20:00 but why not do it in a world where monsters at least have the option to traverse levels without your help 21:20:39 sometimes monsters do traverse levels, entirely independent of your actions 21:20:50 you've never had a "a dragon comes up the staircase" moment? :P 21:21:03 but that's just a variant of monster spawning 21:21:11 it didn't exist before coming up the stairs 21:21:33 it didn't have the chance to pick up items on the level below 21:22:42 I'm not really seeing the benefit to the player of having a monster that picks up items on the level below and then comes up the stairs, when the player hasn't even been to the level below and doesn't know what items and monsters are there. could much more simply generate a monster on a staircase with a few items, if you wanted 21:22:51 So? It is trivial to give it items just as deadly as the ones it could have picked up 21:23:09 yes, okay 21:23:43 xyblor: if the player had access to that information, things would be different. for example, if ashenzari's scrying allowed you to see other levels 21:23:46 I just meant that the monsters that spawn on stairs have no history and have never seen the player 21:24:34 there could also be a spell that summons a tiny mind-linked beast that you can send down staircases to scope them out 21:24:57 actually, does passage of golubria work across levels? 21:26:23 I don't know, but I doubt it 21:26:26 I still don't get it. 21:26:38 * due snugs c-r-d for now. 21:28:07 it doesn't and also it appears to have a broken tile on the tiles version 21:28:40 also, I thought the idea of passage of golubria was that monsters would follow you through it? it looks like it destroys the portal you enter when you use it 21:29:13 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 21:29:25 also, not sure what the point of allowing the player to select the portal's location when it's going to have such a large fuzz value, might as well just put it in a random square near the player 21:29:28 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:31:40 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 21:36:11 03kilobyte * rabba48c9e0f5 10/crawl-ref/source/ (4 files in 4 dirs): Spectral frog tile (Robsoie) 21:36:53 Spectral frog tile (Robsoie) @ http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=abba48c9e0f53cc819c3656dc5c3da9f4af063c0 (by Adam Borowski ) 21:45:05 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:58:24 -!- jld has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:59:05 -!- Fangorn_ has quit [Quit: Fangorn_] 21:59:32 -!- jld has joined ##crawl-dev 22:10:26 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 22:42:28 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 22:42:53 -!- cesium has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:39:53 !seen greensnark 23:39:54 I last saw greensnark at Fri May 6 22:38:07 2011 UTC (6d 6h 1m 47s ago) saying rwbarton: Yes, char_set=anything produces UTF-8 now, the char_set merely picks the subset of unicode youd like to use on ##crawl. 23:55:43 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:57:18 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev