00:02:57 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.9-a1-75-g53a43a8 (32) 00:17:47 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.9-a1-75-g53a43a8 00:37:52 doy> well, webtiles doesn't work well with a lot of modern browsers, either 00:37:56 is that so? 00:38:23 details, doy? 00:39:20 Napkin: the current implementation requires websockets, which are only supported in firefox 4, and the latest safari and chrome, as far as i'm aware 00:39:35 and as kilobyte said, websockets isn't even a finalized standard yet 00:42:21 well, websockets is such a simple thing, let's see what they could possibly change 00:42:50 so your statement should have been: works only with modern browsers 00:43:22 + opera 11, btw 00:44:23 you sounded as if it's broken with one of those 00:45:04 i'd still consider firefox 3.6 a modern browser, for instance 00:45:11 and internet explorer doesn't support them as far as i know 00:45:24 (i could be wrong, i haven't looked incredibly deeply into it) 00:46:01 neither have I 00:47:24 i'm still using firefox 3.6, too. but i wouldn't consider it modern anymore.. rather old and slow 00:50:17 it's like not even a year old is it 00:59:42 hihi, IE10 preview from april 2011 doesn't support websockets yet 00:59:59 probably good, actually, with it insecure 01:00:11 wouldn't want them supporting it and then not ever fixing support for it 01:13:33 just testing opera 11 01:14:26 it has a "about:config" too now, where you need to enable websockets too 01:18:20 -!- ophanim has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:18:38 seems to work as fast as chrome 01:32:57 -!- Pseudonut has joined ##crawl-dev 02:00:27 moin 02:04:02 moin Zaba 02:09:30 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:20:46 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 02:22:39 -!- syllogism- has joined ##crawl-dev 02:54:55 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:50:06 Addition of a paper doll tile (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3936) by Denzi 04:11:30 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 04:50:23 noise system is broken (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3937) by galehar 05:49:52 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:50:40 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 05:50:40 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: Please try out Tiles online at http://crawl.develz.org/webtiles | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 06:13:34 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:14:45 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 06:14:45 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: Please try out Tiles online at http://crawl.develz.org/webtiles | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 06:31:33 -!- Twilight13 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:31:55 -!- Twilight13 has joined ##crawl-dev 06:34:03 isn't kiku supposed to gift me books? 06:34:27 don't tell me there's a f****** random chance for that? 06:38:33 you start getting books at a certain piety level and they come really fast (faster than the other book gifting gods) 06:39:06 the last 50 times i played kiku he gave me a book of necromancy at * and the next book at ** 06:39:44 now i played a mummy necromancer. he skipped the necromancy book gift at * - understandably 06:40:38 but he also skipped the book at ** 06:47:18 -!- Twilight13 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:48:13 -!- Twilight13 has joined ##crawl-dev 06:59:35 he never gave a book at ** 06:59:51 he gifts at *, ***, ***** and then the pain weapon or necronomicon at ****** 07:00:01 he wont gift you a book you already have, also 07:00:11 so if you start a necromancer and go kiku, you wont get a gift until *** 07:01:15 as i said - unstandably no additional book of necromancy at * 07:01:23 serious only at ***? pity 07:01:57 seems like i never played a char before that relied on that second book so badly 07:14:24 if you want to see what slow book gifting really is, go vehumet :P 07:14:39 -!- OG17 has quit [] 07:16:34 -!- OG17 has joined ##crawl-dev 07:20:12 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:36:08 -!- chexuma has joined ##crawl-dev 07:54:38 -!- bhaak has left ##crawl-dev 07:54:46 -!- bhaak has joined ##crawl-dev 08:10:22 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 08:14:38 -!- valrus has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:11:45 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 09:11:45 -!- bmh has quit [Changing host] 09:11:45 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 09:30:07 -!- ophanim has joined ##crawl-dev 09:34:53 wow, howcome webtiles are much faster with firefox 4.0.1 on debian than in winxp? :-O 09:36:01 Napkin: where can I play with webtiles? 09:36:27 the link from the topic, bmh 09:36:56 that's... obvious (doh) 09:37:11 nah, supposed to be not too public yet :) 09:37:58 webtiles is incompatible with pentadactyl. It isn't trapping keystrokes properly. 09:38:13 incompatible with what? 09:38:31 Napkin: something vimish for browsing. 09:38:35 ff-plugin? 09:38:39 pentadactyl is the successor to vimperator. It's a firefox add-on that turns the browser into Vim'ish 09:39:26 well, yeah, no exotic setup supported yet ;) even if vimperator is probably not that exotic 09:39:50 neat. I've never actually played tiles 09:40:02 :) 09:40:23 tiles usually also has a pixel map to the right and an inventory in the bottom right 09:40:37 but, one thing after a hunderd others ;) 09:40:44 On my end it doesn't seem to be rendering properly in Chrome 09:40:44 yeah, I've never played tiles before webtiles, either, and to be honest, I have found them a little too distracting and ambiguous 09:41:08 more details, bmh? 09:41:27 Napkin: the info lines at the bottom of the screen are coming up one turn too late. 09:41:37 oh 09:42:15 pressing "C" while not standing at a door does not immediately show you "There's nothing to close nearby."? 09:42:16 oh. It just expects my window to be taller than it actually is 09:42:24 ah 09:42:27 :) 09:42:45 adjusting the playfield to browser window size is on the todo 09:42:46 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 09:42:53 fwiw, my window is full height on a 13" macbook air 09:42:55 moin edlothiol :) 09:43:00 hi 09:43:15 13" doesn't tell me much - what resolution do you have, bmh? 09:43:28 I think 1440x900 09:43:33 i saw you've been busy, huh, edlothiol? :) 09:43:34 yeah. 09:43:57 oh.. my browser isn't that tall and i see everything.. default zoom, bmh? 09:44:21 hehe, yes :D 09:44:28 wensley gave the magic bar @ http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/player-status a meaning, btw ;D 09:44:30 Napkin: yes 09:44:35 I was planning on telling you soon anyway, but I was still testing a bit 09:44:49 how does it look when you reduce zoom a notch? 09:44:58 fine 09:45:05 sure, no hurry, edlothiol :) been busy the last few days 09:45:46 adapting the view size to the window size is also on gitorious, btw 09:46:02 alright! 09:46:07 awesome :) 09:46:29 but it needs a certain minimum size, so I don't know if it will help you, bmh 09:48:30 the local tiles version scales the tiles down and/or overlays the message area over the dungeon if there isn't enough room, but that's not yet implemented 09:49:00 !tell Wensley <3 auto-refresh :D a small but though: it shows new games fine, but if there are suddenly less games, the bottom lines are duplicated and the number of games isn't lowered 09:49:01 Napkin: OK, I'll let Wensley know. 09:49:23 oh, I wanted to ask, where do I get the "where" information for running games? 09:49:32 and the character 09:49:40 neat. I just found a great arena matchup: 20 bush v jelly 09:50:12 it's supposed to be in a .where file in your morgue folder, edlothiol 09:50:28 might be a dgl-only thingy though 09:50:56 yeah, I think so... so what do these files contain exactly? 09:51:23 why? 09:51:28 would you like to parse them? 09:52:13 query, edlothiol 09:58:08 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 10:03:19 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:14:56 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 10:28:56 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 10:32:38 -!- purge has quit [Quit: .] 10:34:48 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 11:06:27 ping? 11:06:34 -!- ophanim1 has joined ##crawl-dev 11:06:36 pong 11:08:31 -!- ophanim has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:44:43 while mucking with the abyss, I just introduced an awesome bug where all the floor tiles are replaced with altars 11:45:02 -!- Zaba has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:46:05 impressive 11:47:34 haha 11:48:28 ah. I think there's a namespace collision between some constants in the library and some of our dungeon features 11:55:27 do ye think it would be a good idea to change things so people cant train fighting using summons? i see people doing it and it seems so wrong 11:56:18 eith: I'm going to channel dpeg here and suggest that people victorydancing summons just points to an underlying design problem 11:56:23 do you mean like special cases or something more elegant 11:56:26 that is true 11:56:27 yes what bmh said 11:56:58 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 11:58:05 i didnt really have any ideas to fix it unfortunately :p 11:58:21 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 11:58:46 i was just thinking to special case them, kinda like how you cant drain summons with vampires 11:59:30 that's a different sort of scumming 11:59:49 blood is a limited resource, "spending XP" isn't a resource 12:00:30 if you couldn't train fighting versus summons, why not prohibit training of armour and dodging and long blades? 12:00:33 i suppose once the xp changes happen it wont matter anyways 12:01:37 that will be nice 12:09:37 should all externally produced code go in extern, or just larger things? 12:23:21 ha! Sweet. I got Worley Noise abyss working! 12:30:19 nice, that must look really cool 12:30:33 at the moment it's really dull because I'm doing a bad job of feature selection 12:30:48 what it will allow us to do is make the abyss get more open as it gets 'deeper' 13:11:07 bmh: victorydancing summons is going to be no longer a concern if we get rid of victory dancing 13:11:18 kilobyte: That was my point 13:12:42 well, since there is a plan to just let people declare what skills they want to put xp into, is there anything left there? 13:13:09 (assuming the plan succeeds :p) 13:16:16 -!- bmh is now known as bmh_away 13:19:28 webtiles are going down to upgrade 13:28:38 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 13:31:22 -!- bmh_away is now known as bmh 14:40:09 kilobyte, are you in? 14:40:33 edlothiol found a bug which we would need fixed in an appropriate way for web-tiles 14:41:00 and we're not sure which is the best way 14:42:13 the problem is that in tiles builds, SIGHUP doesn't end crawl if the game has already ended 14:42:52 and the player is for example checking the after-death inventory 14:43:13 since crawl_state.updating_scores is true, and sighup_save_and_exit() does nothing if that is the case (probably with good reason) 14:52:12 to go with the chameleonic skin mutation, change character glyph color to match immediate surroundings. would this be annoying or cool? 14:52:20 annoying. 14:53:20 Chameleonic skin, huh? A DS mutation? 14:56:12 no. just a normal one, which octopodes get at game start 14:56:25 Ah, cool 14:57:36 I’d love having the player character glyph color change based on health. 14:59:48 it would be both cool and annoying imo 15:00:09 later tonight I'd like to get some input on the abyss layout work I've been doing. What's the best way to make that happen? 15:00:45 bmh: have a demo build up somewhere, so people can start abyssal knights and play around with it 15:07:57 at the moment, the algorithm is a little bit... dodgy and sometimes encases the player in stone 15:18:13 Stable branch on tiles.crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.8.0-99-gf298e18 (32) 15:20:10 bmh: does it still randomly teleport you? that's fine, then :) 15:21:02 Wensley: it does. 15:22:01 so I'm not familiar with that algorithm you're using, what does it do? just reduces the number of walls generated the longer you're there? 15:22:45 Wensley: I'm using Worley noise. It throws points on a grid and then generates a convex tessellation around those points 15:26:02 welp, I'm not sure how that translates into an abyss layout, but if it makes the abyss more interesting I won't complain :) 15:36:55 Wensley: the idea is to make the abyss less dense as you spend more time there, and to increase the frequency of things like deep water and lava 15:58:50 neuDialect the Magician (L1 HECr) ERROR in 'makeitem.cc' at line 1650: invalid brand (D) 16:04:51 it would be really neat if the areas destroyed by corruption appeared as vaults in the abyss 16:10:03 -!- ophanim1 is now known as ophanim 16:40:36 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: bmh] 16:56:10 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 17:03:31 -!- ais523 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:21:28 -!- Pseudonut has joined ##crawl-dev 17:21:35 bmh: +1 to vault corruption 17:33:57 -!- galehar has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:34:10 Grey draconians fumble in deep water and receive stealth penalties (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3938) by 78291 17:37:30 for the interested: http://crawl.develz.org/cgi-bin/web-status 17:39:24 unfortunately I just broke the player status page XD 17:40:39 :) 17:40:49 well, let's keep people busy to not notice... 17:41:49 *** New version of WebTiles up! Now with resizable playfield, new menu shows players and allows spectating of other webtiles players, also login is kept intact after end of game! 17:42:22 good job, edlothiol! :) 17:42:29 :) 17:42:51 Wensley: if you add webtiles games to the status page, you could add links for watching them 17:43:09 for example, https://tiles.crawl.develz.org/#watch-edlothiol 17:43:11 that was the plan, yes :) 17:43:30 now that I know the url for games it is on the to-do list 17:44:05 this direct linking is awesome :D 17:47:15 hmmm, after redrawing the screen after examining a monster, the hud is now below the map 17:48:13 still too big for my screen resolution :( 17:48:39 turn down the zoom a notch, due? or does that make it very ugly? 17:48:58 haven't tried yet 17:49:15 doy: what browser are you using, and at what resolution/window size? 17:49:19 bmh had the same problem and said it looked still quite ok 17:49:35 I'm runnin at 1000x580 or something ridiculous like that 17:49:37 hooray eee PC 17:49:41 ah, it looks like the hud drops below normally if there isn't enough room on the right 17:49:50 not sure why it would have done it before though 17:50:09 firefox 4, full screen 1440x900 17:50:57 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 17:50:57 -!- bmh has quit [Changing host] 17:50:57 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 17:51:20 alright, I've got a first draft of my abyss modifications 17:52:10 can you switch between tiles and console? 17:52:44 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:52:47 no, not yet 17:54:19 rofl 17:54:59 and there you see devs behave like users ;> 17:55:15 you're supposed to say "Nevah!", edlothiol ;> 17:55:29 :D 17:57:56 reminds me when I finished moving the server to the new ISP 17:58:06 -!- effo has joined ##crawl-dev 17:58:22 "Alright! server is back up! \o/" - "hey, ipv6 is not working properly!" 17:58:33 I'm interested in adding an in-game menu which allows toggling of autopickup for base item types 17:58:41 ipv6 was an additional benefit of the server move.. didn't exist previously ;> 17:58:51 Hi effo 17:58:59 aside from doing a grep autopickup *.* | more 17:59:12 is there a good way to find out what code I need to review 17:59:41 asking here is a good idea 18:00:00 :D the people in here have been helpful in the past 18:00:39 what about config files? 18:00:49 I'd like it to function similarly to the skill menu, and have stuff like wands, chunks, scrolls, etc 18:00:57 my inventory isn't sorted properly d: 18:01:13 the main thing is for, say, a low str character, I wouldn't want to autopick any wands or chunks while I am close to my max encumbrance 18:01:14 it should use your cdo 0.8 rc file 18:01:19 effo: you should make this a feature of the \ menu 18:01:29 edlothiol: ah, i haven't played 0.8 on cdo yet 18:01:48 there doesn't seem to be any interacable purpose to \ right now though 18:02:01 interactable* anyway isn't \ for identified stuff 18:02:15 effo: press - 18:02:17 I guess it couldn't hurt 18:02:33 :P yeah I know about that, I use that pretty often 18:02:35 good feature 18:02:35 and there not being anything interactable on the \ menu currently is the point 18:02:49 should I just make it \a or something to access it 18:02:57 no, just make it default behavior 18:03:13 each thing on the list gets a letter you can press to toggle autopickup for that item 18:03:19 oh I see 18:03:29 maybe add '*' to show all item types 18:03:35 rather than only identified or only unidentified 18:03:40 ok 18:03:42 man that's a task 18:03:46 (: 18:03:52 sounds like a great feature though haha I'll look into it 18:04:34 probably also implement the glyph keys as well 18:04:41 to show a list of types 18:04:50 autopickup demon whips! 18:04:55 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3939 18:04:57 but not fruit 18:05:39 it needs some work, but I think it's a step in the right direction 18:05:57 doy do you know offhand where the \ menu is implemented 18:06:04 effo: nope 18:06:14 how about what it is called 18:06:18 but i imagine grepping for "You recognise" would tell you 18:06:21 ok 18:06:39 perfect 18:09:20 Worley Noise Abyss terrain (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3939) by brendan 18:10:44 I should mention that the starting abyss does not use my modifications 18:14:23 does tiles in general not indicate which staircases you've taken 18:14:30 or is that specific to webtiles? 18:16:56 there should be a small star on the top left of stairs you haven't taken 18:17:00 top right 18:17:24 ah, that's backwards from console 18:17:27 confusing! 18:19:04 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: bmh] 18:20:48 Hand Weapons (select all with )) 18:29:19 oh awesome, you can watch webtiles games now? 18:29:56 tiles players can finally play crawl for real! :P 18:31:11 not really, it's some ancient version 18:31:23 like, you have to meddle with knives to butcher stuff 18:31:43 -!- Twilight13 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:31:56 -!- Twilight13 has joined ##crawl-dev 18:32:05 heh 18:38:34 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:43:11 -!- plaidman has joined ##crawl-dev 18:43:52 i do miss the monster list quite a bit playing tiles 18:43:57 why doesn't tiles have that 18:44:25 "you don't need it with hp bars!" 18:47:17 that's not true at all 18:47:30 exactly 18:47:32 i don't use it for keeping track of hp, that's what the message area colors are for 18:47:55 i use it for a place i can look at to see "what's the most dangerous monster in view right now" 18:48:27 yup 18:50:29 i think offline tiles does have that now 18:52:51 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 18:55:51 I have a dev-ey question 18:56:19 I'm submitting a fix for a crash in mantis... should I just submit the updated files into mantis or git or is there a different process 18:57:09 commit the patch in your local repository 18:57:14 and do "git format-patch -1" 18:57:17 plaidman: commit the fix locally and t... 18:57:18 that will create a file 18:57:21 then follow doy's instructions! 18:57:22 and the upload that file to mantis 18:57:40 looks like tiles has a monster list thing but it's little tiles/icons that you have to hover he mouse over 18:58:14 thanks doy and due! 18:58:27 upsy: yeah, that's not particularly useful, although it is an improvement 18:58:32 i guess it's useful if you've played tiles lots and actually know what the monsters look like, i definitely don't :P 18:59:03 the minimap is quite nice 18:59:15 MarvinPA: regardless though 18:59:22 it's easy to not notice when something comes into view 18:59:26 tiles or console 18:59:31 very easy 18:59:40 or not to notice that there's a merfolk javileneer behind you 18:59:42 that is killing you 18:59:43 hm, yeah, the new messages help with that at least 18:59:47 rather than the one you are d3estroying in front of you 18:59:48 "oops" 18:59:50 yes, that too 18:59:51 (: 19:00:00 I seriously want to suggest making monsters lightred while berserk 19:00:05 actually 19:00:11 i was just thinking that actually 19:00:11 (: 19:00:16 huh? 19:00:23 oh, while they're berserk? 19:00:28 no, while you are 19:00:31 oh 19:00:36 because while you're berserk monsters blend in with the scenery 19:00:40 it was like that for a while and it was really annoying 19:00:43 (which is how I splatted my lavaorc) 19:00:46 wait, what? 19:00:46 because you have to x over everything to check what it is 19:00:54 oh 19:00:58 you mean like console does it 19:01:03 you have to do that anyway? 19:01:06 hang on i'm really confused now 19:01:08 where monsters themselves don't get colored at all? 19:01:12 are we talking about tiles or console? :P 19:01:14 yeah, i don't know quite what you're talking about 19:01:15 wait 19:01:29 maybe my brain is dead 19:01:38 are monsters uncoloured or coloured while berserk? 19:01:44 coloured 19:01:45 in current console trunk? 19:01:48 with their normal colors 19:01:52 huh. 19:01:54 i fixed that like a year ago 19:02:02 are you srue this is still the case? 19:02:04 yes 19:02:11 huh. 19:02:12 !lg 19:02:13 1376. bookofjude the Executioner (L18 LOBe), worshipper of Trog, hit from afar by a merfolk javelineer (javelin of returning) on Shoals:5 (shoalhut rune) on 2011-04-26, with 194886 points after 65953 turns and 4:00:29. 19:02:25 shoals has the annoyance of blue merfolk on blue water though 19:02:37 presumably that's what killed you? 19:02:45 @??merfolk javelineer 19:02:46 merfolk javelineer (15m) | Speed: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 13 | Health: 69-87 | AC/EV: 0/14 | Damage: 16, 17 | Flags: amphibious | Res: 06magic(69), 12drown | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 1208. 19:02:51 @??merfolk impaler 19:02:51 merfolk impaler (12m) | Speed: 10 (swim: 60%; atk: 60%) | HD: 12 | Health: 69-99 | AC/EV: 0/18 | Damage: 26 | Flags: amphibious | Res: 06magic(48), 12drown | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 1072. 19:02:59 You're right they're uncoloured 19:03:04 blue merfolk vs lightblue merfolk impaler is the one that always gets me 19:03:15 -!- syllogism- has quit [] 19:03:17 i find those and regular merfolk are a pain to distinguish on water, too 19:03:18 i don't remember seeing the javelineer behind me though 19:03:18 that should really probably be changed 19:03:41 !lg -tv 19:03:41 1377. due, XL1 HuBe, T:41 requested for FooTV. 19:03:45 erm 19:03:51 !lg bookofjude -tv 19:03:52 1359. bookofjude, XL18 LOBe, T:65953 requested for FooTV. 19:04:01 oh 19:04:03 is footv down? 19:04:13 ??footv 19:04:14 footv[1/3]: telnet termcast.develz.org (and then select the letter for FooTV). do not use SSH. Shows games requested using !tv. Request games by adding -tv to !lg, !lm or !hs, cancel games by adding -tv:cancel to the same command-line, clear playlist with !lg * -tv:nuke 19:04:18 ohhh 19:04:33 confused me for a bit too(: 19:04:37 yeah 19:04:39 considerably 19:05:24 haha 19:05:24 merfolk impalers could be deep elf blademaster colour, maybe 19:05:26 what a room 19:06:04 huh 19:06:04 merfolk should be yellow, orange, magenta, etc. 19:06:06 tropical fish colors 19:06:09 i thought that it was the javilneer behind me 19:06:15 but apparently it was theo ne in front of me that killed me :/ 19:06:18 yup 19:06:33 weapons of returning being thrown at 0 range = confusing 19:06:34 javelineers are like master archers, they'll keep using their weapons point blank 19:07:04 yeah 19:07:06 hmm 19:07:10 also, they really need to be white 19:07:12 not lightgrey 19:08:28 i guess master archers are lightgrey as well 19:09:09 not that there's that much consistency with colours generally anyway :P 19:10:00 yeah, i'm going to make impalers lightcyan, anyone have an issue with that? 19:10:20 oh, is that sirens? 19:10:21 hmmm 19:10:26 ahh, probably 19:11:06 i wasn't kidding when i said bright tropical colors :P 19:12:15 yeah, we could go with yellow or lightred maybe 19:12:29 huh, ?/M merfolk lists donald 19:12:51 he's aquatic! 19:12:56 (make donald not aquatic, it's stupid) 19:13:04 it is pretty dumb 19:13:11 i wonder if it's because his description contains lua for in case you're a merfolk 19:13:39 probably 19:14:00 the pattern matching code for that sort of thing is pretty dumb 19:14:36 "?/M if you.race" -> donald 19:14:39 heh 19:19:01 merfolk -> lightred, merfolk impaler -> yellow? 19:19:10 would mimic orc/orc warrior at least 19:20:13 doy: I'm cool with that. 19:20:38 Eronarn: I am not cool with donald not being aquatic. 19:20:50 Eronarn: it is my favourite anachronism what I snuck past dpeg :( 19:21:06 due: i am not cool with donald being aquatic!! :( 19:21:15 donald is not a lava orc! 19:21:22 i am also not cool with donald missing branch text for some branches 19:21:33 and also some of his text being awful 19:21:33 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:24:43 03doy * r6eee55f5ed25 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: adjust some merfolk colors, to make them more visible 19:27:55 -!- Pseudonut has joined ##crawl-dev 19:28:36 Eronarn: there's a wiki page with improvements for Donald's text, but some bozo hopelessly entangled examples (plenty of them) with new text 19:29:10 kilobyte: yeah, i plan to go through that some time 19:29:19 because some old text needs to be pruned anyways 19:29:46 Fixing a few bugs with missile type items and hovering in tiles (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3940) by plaidman 19:30:43 woo that's me! =) 19:30:51 @The_monster@ says, "Maybe, with this gold, I'll be able to afford that Trove..." 19:30:54 not anymore! 19:31:00 donald's behind the times 19:31:31 afford the entry fee for that trove 19:31:53 for the item for that trove 19:32:05 @The_monster@ says, "I'd like to genocide mosquitoes." 19:32:14 hah, that one is more relevant now though :P 19:32:41 -!- upsy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:37:50 also referencing things that were like three versions ago seems sort of weird 19:38:41 yes 19:38:53 like yellow/brown/whatever snakes 19:38:55 better to tackle all of it at once though, just so it's done 19:38:56 i don't even remember them 19:40:10 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:40:35 !tell Napkin I'm giving up trying to provide armel trunk Debian packages. I'd need ancient libraries which are too entangled with the compiler -- and ancient compilers have bad cross support. Native builds take several hours -- manageable for releases like 0.8 but not trunk. 19:40:35 kilobyte: OK, I'll let Napkin know. 19:43:18 he references victory dancing, really? :/ 19:43:33 yeah, like i said, bad :P 19:45:34 Several hours? ew. 19:48:41 due: optimized console + optimized tiles 19:53:25 <3 52 card pickup 19:53:32 LuckyNed the Axe Maniac (L27 HOBe) (D:23) 19:53:49 some of the proposed messages on the wiki are real gems 19:54:24 too bad Donald rarely gets to say a single line before he dies 19:58:19 03kilobyte * re572026645bc 10/crawl-ref/source/cloud.cc: Make the code for overwriting clouds more readable. 19:58:27 03kilobyte * rc72633f3ac34 10/crawl-ref/source/ (directn.cc target.cc target.h): Let targetters return a custom reason why targetting failed. 19:58:35 03kilobyte * ra216a41cd1c5 10/crawl-ref/source/makeitem.cc: Give more information on bad weapon brand crashes. 19:58:35 03kilobyte * r03ccfdd652f5 10/crawl-ref/source/ (target.cc terrain.cc terrain.h): Name the feature type you're trying to target in the fail message. 20:03:10 also not having the "exit summary" at the top of the screen during X is annoying 20:04:27 yeah 20:15:53 I'm curious about the inconsistency between targeted abilities and spells. If you fail to use an ability, it will fail before you select your target, as opposed to spells, which miscast after you've chosen a target 20:16:14 this causes macros and command repeat to break when using for ex. makhleb's destruction 20:16:32 was just curious if it's that way for a specific reason or just legacy 20:35:05 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 20:37:55 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 21:01:37 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:14:43 why are griffons 1000 xp 21:14:51 there's no reason for that at all 21:15:55 @??griffon 21:15:55 griffon (08H) | Speed: 10 | HD: 12 | Health: 46-86 | AC/EV: 4/6 | Damage: 18, 10, 10 | Flags: fly | Res: 06magic(48) | XP: 868. 21:16:41 @??elephant 21:16:42 elephant (03Y) | Speed: 10 | HD: 9 | Health: 52-85 | AC/EV: 8/2 | Damage: 20, 5 | Res: 06magic(60), 12drown | XP: 430. 21:16:55 huh, wow 21:16:57 @??wyvern 21:16:58 wyvern (04D) | Speed: 15 | HD: 5 | Health: 16-39 | AC/EV: 5/10 | Damage: 20 | Res: 06magic(20) | XP: 207. 21:17:18 @??hippogriff 21:17:18 hippogriff (07H) | Speed: 10 | HD: 7 | Health: 24-54 | AC/EV: 2/7 | Damage: 10, 8, 8 | Flags: fly | Res: 06magic(28) | XP: 184. 21:17:26 weird 21:17:34 i think they should be ~500xp at most 21:17:41 yeah 21:18:26 there are quite a lot of monsters that should be worth less xp, really 21:18:34 my favourite is probably acid blobs, which are worth more than a lich 21:19:25 @??acid blob 21:19:26 acid blob (11J) | Speed: 12 | HD: 18 | Health: 76-129 | AC/EV: 1/3 | Damage: 4208(acid:7d3) | Flags: sense invisible, !sil | Res: 06magic(168), 03poison, 08acid+++, asphyx | XP: 3838 | Sp: acid splash (3d7+7d5). 21:20:21 03doy * r4da0f42b343a 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: there's no reason at all for griffons to be worth this much xp 21:21:11 @??lich 21:21:11 lich (15L) | Speed: 10 | HD: 20 | Health: 57-99 | AC/EV: 10/10 | Damage: 1513(drain) | Flags: 07undead, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(293), 02cold++, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 3795 | Sp: b.cold (3d29), paralyse, greater demon, animate dead, iron shot (3d34), teleport self / b.draining (3d24), animate dead, summon undead, throw frost (3d.. 21:21:14 and then there's vault guards, about as tough as an orc knight but worth twice as much xp 21:21:38 vault guards are tougher than orc knights, but mostly because they get awesome equipment 21:21:44 that's true 21:21:51 they're certainly not twice as tough though, yeah 21:23:46 @??vault guard 21:23:47 vault guard (10@) | Speed: 10 | HD: 13 | Health: 54-92 | AC/EV: 1/13 | Damage: 20 | Flags: sense invisible | Res: 06magic(52) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 1375. 21:23:48 -!- valrus_ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:23:52 @??orc knight 21:23:52 orc knight (10o) | Speed: 10 | HD: 9 | Health: 47-87 | AC/EV: 2/13 | Damage: 25 | Res: 06magic(36) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 681. 21:24:13 i think it's probably orc knights that could stand to go up a bit, actually 21:24:17 @??orc warrior 21:24:17 orc warrior (08o) | Speed: 10 | HD: 4 | Health: 16-39 | AC/EV: 0/13 | Damage: 20 | Res: 06magic(16) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 132. 21:24:26 possibly orc warriors too 21:24:26 oh here's another one I like: ice fiends are worth way less xp than pit fiends, even though ice fiends are pretty much the most dangerous of all the 1's, and pit fiends arguably the least threatening 21:24:35 heh, yeah 21:24:42 least threatening of the fiends, I mean 21:24:52 would rather make pit fiends more threatening though, personally 21:24:53 (: 21:25:03 they basically never use their abilities at all 21:25:08 they could stand to gain a few earth spells or something 21:25:09 @??pit fiend 21:25:09 Pit Fiend (071) | Speed: 8 | HD: 19 | Health: 101-147 | AC/EV: 17/5 | Damage: 28, 21, 21 | Flags: 05demonic, evil, see invisible, fly, !sil | Res: 06magic(304), 05hellfire, 02cold, 10elec++, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 5262 | Sp: hellfire (3d20), melee, torment symbol. 21:25:17 they're really just "fiends but speed 8" 21:25:27 weren't we going to rename/reflavor them as iron fiends? 21:25:43 that sounds like a good idea 21:26:24 the main issue really is that hd has basically an overwhelming impact on xp 21:26:38 and for melee monsters, hd is basically meaningless 21:26:48 so people just set it to arbitrary things 21:27:03 @??ice fiend 21:27:04 Ice Fiend (161) | Speed: 10 | HD: 18 | Health: 76-129 | AC/EV: 15/6 | Damage: 2512(cold:18-53), 2512(cold:18-53) | Flags: 05demonic, evil, see invisible, fly, !sil | Res: 06magic(288), 12cold+++, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 04fire, 08holy++ | XP: 2603 | Sp: b.cold (3d27), torment symbol, demon. 21:27:29 huh, i wonder what exactly makes pit fiends worth so much 21:27:30 wow that's a lot of xp for pit fiends 21:27:44 loads of health plus high hd, maybe? 21:27:57 dunno if health factors in, i forget 21:27:58 they're only hd 19 vs ice fiend hd 18 21:28:07 @??ice fiend hd:19 21:28:08 Ice Fiend (161) | Speed: 10 | HD: 19 | Health: 79-127 | AC/EV: 15/6 | Damage: 2512(cold:19-56), 2512(cold:19-56) | Flags: 05demonic, evil, see invisible, fly, !sil | Res: 06magic(288), 12cold+++, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 04fire, 08holy++ | XP: 2956 | Sp: b.cold (3d28), torment symbol, demon. 21:28:30 oh 21:28:41 they have an exp_mod of 18 for some reason 21:28:52 that's dumb 21:28:56 fiends, too 21:28:58 @??fiend 21:28:58 Fiend (041) | Speed: 10 | HD: 18 | Health: 76-129 | AC/EV: 15/6 | Damage: 25, 15, 15 | Flags: 05demonic, evil, see invisible, fly, !sil | Res: 06magic(288), 05hellfire, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 12cold, 08holy++ | XP: 5532 | Sp: hellfire (3d20), torment symbol, melee. 21:29:19 do fiends use hellfire/torment more often than pit fiends? 21:29:27 or is that just because pit fiends are speed 8 21:29:27 don't think so, other than being speed 10 21:29:54 fiends are rC-, that's the only difference i ever remember 21:31:57 anyway, acid blobs and all of the fiends definitely need their xp looked into, but i'm not entirely sure what it should end up at 21:33:49 make pit fiends into iron fiends 21:33:54 make iron stuff actspeed 10 :) 21:34:05 that's probably reasonable 21:34:20 hmmm 21:34:31 should ice fiend xp be higher? or should the others be lower? 21:34:33 or both? 21:35:21 i think ~4k is reasonable for the fiends 21:35:28 yeah 21:35:53 sometimes they're super deadly but other times they go down in just a few hits 21:36:14 @??shadow fiend 21:36:15 Shadow Fiend (061) | Speed: 10 | HD: 18 | Health: 76-129 | AC/EV: 15/6 | Damage: 2513(drain), 1513(drain), 1513(drain) | Flags: 05demonic, evil, see invisible, lev, !sil | Res: 06magic(312), 02cold++, 10elec, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 2771 | Sp: b.cold (3d27), b.draining (3d22), torment symbol, dispel undead (3d27), demon. 21:36:37 shadow fiend is probably fine 21:37:05 maybe bump ice fiend up to 3.5k, knock fiend and pit fiend down to 4.5k? 21:38:01 give shadow pain brand :D 21:38:02 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 21:38:19 now that AF_PAIN or whatever it is actually exists, that would be nice 21:38:25 better: give fiends hellfire brand 21:38:25 (: 21:38:32 it was added for grinder right? can random panlords get AF_PAIN? 21:38:40 i think so 21:40:22 oh 21:40:35 no, probably not, they actually use SPWPN_whatever or something 21:41:30 bug 21:41:51 okay but they should be able to get spwpn_pain which acts the same, so yeah 21:42:17 @??tormentor 21:42:17 tormentor (083) | Speed: 13 | HD: 7 | Health: 24-54 | AC/EV: 12/12 | Damage: 8, 8 | Flags: 05demonic, evil, fly, !sil | Res: 06magic(56), 05fire, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 414 | Sp: pain (d11), torment symbol. 21:42:22 03doy * r7db660fc8d89 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: couple more xp adjusts: pit/ice/normal fiends, acid blobs 21:42:22 tormentors should have pain brand 21:43:47 i think it'd make sense to bump up orc warrior/knight xp, but not sure how much i want to randomly fiddle with early game balance without thinking it through 21:44:53 orc warriors are quite tough early on since you can't outrun them as easily as ogres 21:44:56 @??ogre 21:44:56 ogre (07O) | Speed: 10 | HD: 5 | Health: 17-38 | AC/EV: 1/6 | Damage: 17 | Res: 06magic(20) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 119. 21:44:57 yeah 21:44:57 @??orc warrior 21:44:57 orc warrior (08o) | Speed: 10 | HD: 4 | Health: 16-39 | AC/EV: 0/13 | Damage: 20 | Res: 06magic(16) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 132. 21:45:15 and they hit about as hard 21:45:29 considering their weapon delay is quite a bit less 21:45:41 plus, they're typically armoured 21:47:15 yeah, the armor is a big deal vs. many characters 21:49:55 -!- purge has joined ##crawl-dev 21:56:31 do any devs know if it was intentional that missile-type items are wieldable in trunk? 21:57:07 how else a motherfucker gonna enchant them 21:57:28 hey what if Mnoleg cast alter self on the player (hp loss and all) 21:57:41 plaidman: any item is wieldable 21:58:06 that's new in 0.9 due? 21:58:57 st_: but with bad mutations? 21:59:01 st_: that would be bad due to the way alter self works 21:59:07 that too 21:59:10 as the formula can leave you with 1 HP 21:59:11 plaidman: all items have always been wieldable 21:59:31 I once had an idea about mnoleg having mutasmite. I guess that could do some damage too. 21:59:37 hmm 21:59:43 well, we could adjust the damage since it would only e a mnoleg/xom thing 22:00:08 plaidman: no, all items hve always been wieldable 22:00:09 I think xom does it anyway 22:00:20 "or, get rid of alter self entirely, then it doesn't matter" 22:01:42 i already did that :P 22:02:00 well, alright then 22:02:08 who cares how alter self works 22:02:10 (: 22:02:26 ohh I see. w* to show all items in the wield dialog. ctrl+Lclick doesn't wield unintended items in 0.8 but it does in 0.9... is /this/ intentional?? 22:02:37 monqy: mutagenic cloud, conj/air/tmut 22:02:53 _P - a glowing blowgun 22:02:53 As you read the scroll of identify, it crumbles to dust. 22:02:53 P - a +0 blowgun 22:02:55 intentional? 22:04:27 valrus_: yes 22:04:33 ok 22:08:43 the solution to mnoleg being too weak is that players are too strong. nerf everything 22:09:04 +1 22:09:16 hmm ctrl+Lclick doesn't wield corpses, armor etc. so I assume ctrl+Lclick shouldn't wield inappropriate missiles either 22:09:38 but then nerf cerebov so we can still kill him :[ 22:09:40 i think a bit of everything-nerfing isn't a bad idea, really :P 22:10:10 it's pretty easy to clear zigs endlessly already and i don't really like the idea of power spiralling even more by making zigs way harder 22:11:26 giving stuff more HP would help 22:11:59 yeah, that's true 22:12:22 a lot of the reason most things aren't that dangerous is because you can kill them before they get a chance to do much 22:13:06 yeah... you don't really want fights being slugfests that drag on without end, but crawl is very glass cannon-y compared to some other RLs 22:13:28 you kill stuff fast, and if stuff goes sour, you die fast 22:13:44 mnoleg just needs new spells 22:13:51 alternately 22:13:55 give mnoleg kraken tentacles 22:14:13 he got new spells but cool summoning spells are no use in the endgame because abjuration is silly :( 22:14:27 MarvinPA: make abjuration in its current form a L6 spell :D 22:14:34 I'd agree with making mnoleg all chaos and less summoning, because abjuration and lack of space in vaults 22:14:35 he'd be pretty dangerous if you couldn't abjure everything he has in a single turn for 3mp 22:15:08 split abjuration into two spells 22:15:11 abjuration should just be targeted (with a small aoe or something) 22:15:12 there should be a lower-level, single-target, anti-summoner spell (hex/summ?), and abjuration 22:15:15 imo 22:15:15 single target and multi-target 22:15:30 and yeah, make the multi-target version level 6 or 7 22:16:04 something like... a range 4 hex/summ spell, which disables creating new summons but doesn't affect existing ones 22:16:07 would be cool 22:16:31 i think part of the issue is that things like the monster form of summon 1 is so incredibly ridiculous 22:16:35 abjuration (single-target, L3), mass abjuration (radius 2 smite-targeted, L6)? 22:16:43 also all monster summoning is kinda crazy, yeah 22:17:21 i'd say toning down monster summoning a bit, but nerfing abjuration heavily would be a good idea 22:17:52 monster greater demon could have its demons reweighted 22:18:03 ancient liches are terrifying simplybecause of the fiend/pit fiend/ice fiend likelihood 22:18:09 i'd say just have it summon fewer of them at a time 22:18:18 it'd still be quite strong if it did 1-2 at a time 22:18:24 summon 1 would still be plenty dangerous if it just summoned 1 or 2, yeah 22:18:25 i don't see any reason why anything needs to summon more than 1 thing at a time 22:18:31 except for possibly panlords and the like 22:18:45 and yeah, vampires summoning a million rats is the worst 22:18:48 but even then, it's such a strong incentive to either burn resources to kill them super fast, or not fight them at all 22:19:27 (or to come back later and hope they roll badly on their spells) 22:19:27 yeah, the issue currently is, you have to rush in and kill them as quickly as possible, and if they manage to get a single summon off, you run away and try again 22:19:37 this is especially noticeable with elf demonologists 22:20:20 yet another part of the issue is that there's such a huge jump in difficulty between tier 1 and tier 2 22:20:23 also, summons that summon should really go 22:20:30 that summoning 2 is basically a joke 22:20:34 because they either summon chain ridiculous things 22:20:41 i don't think any 2s summon 22:20:41 or summon screenfuls of popcorn crap 22:20:47 you mean ynoxinul? 22:20:55 MarvinPA: i mean things that summon 2s 22:21:00 ahh 22:21:08 2s should be harder in general imo 22:21:15 well, nothing summons 2s explicitly, too 22:21:23 just 2-4 22:21:24 like, it'd be a decent idea to make things summon fewer 1s and more 2s maybe, except that 2s are so worthless 22:21:27 geryon does 22:21:29 that too 22:21:39 wonder if the deaths could be bumped down to 2s 22:21:43 really, blue death/green death/cacodemon/balrug could be a seperate tier from the fiends 22:21:52 Eronarn: i think that's a good idea, actually 22:22:01 mm yeah 22:22:36 deaths + cacodemon 22:22:50 maybe if we took the weakest half of each current demon number, and bumped them down a grade, except for &s and 4s 22:22:53 cacodemon would be pretty worthless as a 3, really 22:23:01 doy: cacodemons disintegrate now, they're ok 22:23:05 oh, okay 22:23:11 @??cacodemon 22:23:11 Cacodemon (081) | Speed: 10 | HD: 13 | Health: 77-115 | AC/EV: 11/10 | Damage: 22, 22 | Flags: 05demonic, see invisible, lev, regen, !sil | Res: 06magic(156), 11elec+++, 09poison+++, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 1891 | Sp: b.energy (3d20), slow, polymorph other, confuse, demon. 22:23:13 @?cacodemon 22:23:13 Cacodemon (081) | Speed: 10 | HD: 13 | Health: 52-91 | AC/EV: 11/10 | Damage: 22 | Flags: 05demonic, see invisible, lev, regen, !sil | Res: 06magic(156), 10elec++, 03poison | XP: 1404 | Sp: call imp, polymorph other, b.dig, demon. 22:25:18 also 22:27:22 also remove demon polymorphing :) 22:27:47 yes, that 22:28:59 we should just give in and make our cacodemons exactly the same as doomrl ones 22:31:11 http://codepeek.com/paste/4dc60e7a661479f76c0a6d00 22:31:14 how does that look 22:32:20 can we lose the uppercases for balrug/cacodemon/lorocyproca? 22:32:21 also, pit fiend -> iron fiend, and come up with less dumb names for "blue death" and "green death" 22:32:24 they look really out of place 22:32:27 sure 22:33:26 also, 'imp' to 'crimson imp' or 'brimstone imp' or 'irksome imp' or something 22:34:13 i do actually like green/blue deaths but it'd work better if there were more than two kinds of deaths 22:35:28 ...though it is a bit weird to have 'Green Death' and also, uh, reaper. which is, well, Death. 22:35:34 heh 22:36:12 @??blue death 22:36:13 Blue Death (021) | Speed: 11 | HD: 12 | Health: 46-86 | AC/EV: 10/10 | Damage: 20, 20 | Flags: 05demonic, see invisible, fly, !sil | Res: 06magic(144), 02cold++, 10elec++, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 04fire, 08holy++ | XP: 1526 | Sp: b.lightning (3d18), b.cold (3d21), shadow creatures, teleport other. 22:38:33 hm... kind of hard to think of a coherent thing with that spellset 22:38:39 @??green death 22:38:39 Green Death (031) | Speed: 11 | HD: 13 | Health: 51-89 | AC/EV: 5/7 | Damage: 32 | Flags: 05demonic, see invisible, !sil | Res: 06magic(156), 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 1637 | Sp: poison arrow (3d20), poisonous cloud (3d9), b.venom (3d18), blink. 22:39:00 didn't green death used to have summon 5? 22:39:50 i think so 22:39:53 @?green death 22:39:54 Green Death (031) | Speed: 11 | HD: 13 | Health: 52-91 | AC/EV: 5/7 | Damage: 32 | Flags: 05demonic, see invisible, !sil | Res: 06magic(156), 03poison | XP: 1637 | Sp: poison arrow (3d20), poisonous cloud (3d9), b.venom (3d18), call imp, blink. 22:41:48 i removed it when i tweaked various other demon spell sets 22:42:07 since imp spam isn't particularly befitting of a greater demon :P 22:42:27 it's true! 22:43:01 also that looks good, not sure lorocyprocas are particularly worthy of being a 2 though 22:43:23 would rather make them more interesting 22:43:24 (: 22:43:41 if shadow demons exist there's not much reason for lorocyprocas to 22:43:42 hmm... plague tyrant? i'm envisioning some kind of lord of diseases 22:43:45 well if they got other boosts to make them closer in power to the others, sure 22:43:50 Eronarn: Pestilence 22:43:50 MarvinPA: give loros airstrikeeeee 22:43:50 (: 22:44:37 also tormentors should totally be 2s 22:44:48 tormentors are a bit wimpy 22:45:08 being tormented twice in one turn isn't very wimpy 22:45:09 but if they got buffed a little, and had pain brand in melee, 2 would seem fine 22:45:27 well they're very glass cannon-y and don't use torment as often as hellions use hellfire 22:45:52 they're already one of the most dangerous things, I don't think they need buffing to be honest 22:46:14 if a tormentor is on the screen it's pretty much always your first priority to kill it 22:46:22 03MarvinPA * ra3605293e62d 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/ (builder/uniques.des portals/icecave.des portals/wizlab.des): Adjust some vault depths that weren't changed for shortened Elven Halls 22:46:25 i'd say that merits it being a 2 22:46:33 03MarvinPA * r9cff0ba350b7 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/database/monspeak.txt: Remove some obsolete Donald references, add/reword some speech 22:46:34 03MarvinPA * r0392d60993a8 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: Give Tormentors and Shadow Fiends a pain-branded attack 22:46:42 tormentors could probably be a 2 if their hp was buffed a bit 22:47:00 @??tormentor 22:47:00 tormentor (083) | Speed: 13 | HD: 7 | Health: 24-54 | AC/EV: 12/12 | Damage: 8, 8 | Flags: 05demonic, evil, fly, !sil | Res: 06magic(56), 05fire, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 414 | Sp: pain (d11), torment symbol. 22:47:02 @??hellion 22:47:02 hellion (052) | Speed: 12 | HD: 7 | Health: 24-54 | AC/EV: 5/10 | Damage: 10 | Flags: 05demonic, !sil | Res: 06magic(65), 05hellfire, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 12cold, 08holy++ | XP: 600 | Sp: hellfire burst (3d15). 22:47:05 they have the same- 22:47:06 yeah 22:47:06 same hp 22:47:33 difference is hellions die in 2 turns to a wand of cold 22:47:42 tormentors don't go down as easily 22:47:42 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:47:57 also, tormentors have pain 22:48:06 which means they don't torment as often as hellions hellfire 22:48:13 give tormentors pain mirror :D 22:48:18 sure but hellfire doesn't halve your health 22:48:54 blue death: crystalline somethingorother? 22:49:26 tormentors are speed 13 and hellions speed 12? I did not know that. 22:49:32 monqy: lol crawl speeds 22:49:35 me neither 22:49:38 @??psyche 22:49:39 Psyche (13@) | Speed: 13 | HD: 5 | Health: 39 | AC/EV: 0/12 | Damage: 7 | Flags: spellcaster | Res: 06magic(26) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 371 | Sp: throw frost (3d6), cantrip, haste, throw flame (3d6), magic dart (3d4), invisibility. 22:49:44 i knew hellions were 12 22:49:49 permanently half hasted 22:50:06 I knew both tormentors and hellions were faster than 10 but not that they were different 22:50:23 i'd like it if we could get speed standardization into .9, but that is probably just a pipe dream 22:50:38 yeah, that would require pretty serious rebalancing 22:52:11 doy: not necessarily - a lot of stuff could be improved with tweaks of just a point or two one way or another 22:52:28 there's some stuff with arbitrarily high speeds where more testing would be needed 22:53:31 i think ugly things are a good example of where we could go with this 22:53:32 also I have a wacky idea for demon renumbering but probably nobody would like it. Basically, 1 is for fiends; 2 is for most of the rest of the current 1s, tormentors, hellions; 3 is for the notable/dangerous current 2s/3s; 4 is for non-notable half-dangerous stuff; 5 is for the rest 22:53:33 @??ugly thing 22:53:34 purple ugly thing (06u) | Speed: 11 (act: 110%) | HD: 8 | Health: 30-59 | AC/EV: 2/10 | Damage: 1207(disease) | Res: 06magic(32), 04rot | Chunks: 06mutagenic | XP: 339. 22:53:44 monqy: uh did you see doy's proposal 22:53:49 because it's basically that 22:54:04 yeah 22:54:33 oh hey, here's a thought for blue deaths 22:54:41 make them blizzard demons 22:54:48 monqy: http://codepeek.com/paste/4dc60e7a661479f76c0a6d00 22:55:04 Eronarn: replace bolt of cold with freezing cloud? 22:55:15 shadow creatures -> their own version of simulacrum; lose lightning bolt; gain a 'merge into the air' ability that turns them into clouds 22:55:59 shadow demons could probably go down to 4, they don't do much interesting 22:56:11 if they lost lightning bolt it could open a slot for a elec demon bigger than sixfirhy 22:56:12 true 22:56:13 other than be invisible 22:56:38 that reminds me, someone should go implement chaos spawns breathing chaos 22:56:58 a mix of clouds and chaos-branded beams 22:57:52 -!- purge has quit [Quit: .] 22:58:07 st_: i'm not actually sure about that. idon't think the current elec spells are suitable for monster use really 22:58:13 lbolt, cbl, chain 22:58:15 back & no I did not see doy's proposal. is it like mine? 22:58:17 all of them are problematic 22:58:19 looking at it now 22:59:03 yeah you're right, monster cloud spells can act funky sometimes too 22:59:33 it'd be cool to have an acid demon, though 23:00:32 oh yeah... give smoke demons smoke ball and airstrike instead of steam ball and smite :) 23:01:00 also make them speed 10 23:01:01 @??smoke demon 23:01:02 smoke demon (153) | Speed: 9 | HD: 7 | Health: 24-54 | AC/EV: 5/9 | Damage: 8, 5, 5 | Flags: 05demonic, lev, !sil | Res: 06magic(56), 05fire++, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 315 | Sp: sticky flame range (3d4), steam ball (3d12), smiting (7-17). 23:01:03 only thing I really don't like about doy's demon numbering is tormentors on 3 23:01:15 monqy: yeah, i'm open to changing that 23:01:37 monqy: well they just got pain brand in melee, so that helps justify a 2 23:02:10 how about i make a branch for all of this 23:02:16 and we can go from there 23:02:17 colour clash with cacodemons tho :p 23:02:25 recolouring is fine 23:02:25 possibly a good idea 23:02:32 what would happen to the notions of common demon and greater demon 23:02:32 make tormentors pain-colored 23:02:35 that sounds good, it'd be nice to change how monster demon summoning works along with this 23:02:35 (lightmagenta) 23:02:39 particularly for spells, and less so for vaults 23:02:42 MarvinPA: well, we'd have to 23:02:51 where spells includes makhleb invocations 23:02:52 monqy: i think 2, 1 high power and 4, 3 high power 23:02:56 summoning like 5 fiends at once is absolutely ridiculous 23:02:57 (: 23:02:59 indeed 23:03:17 for summon greater / summon demon 23:03:25 Eronarn: yeah, that's reasonable 23:03:32 i think the monster spells could be split into summon 5, summon 3/4, summon 2 and summon fiend 23:03:34 go from 5 / 4, 3, 2 / 1 to 5 / 4, 3 / 2, 1 23:03:43 or that 23:03:49 MarvinPA: i don't think summon fiend is a good concept, really 23:04:03 there's also the idea of passive summons which i proposed a while back 23:04:07 well, fiend+executioner 23:04:07 kind of like how demonic guardian works 23:04:11 using the new tiers 23:04:20 ynoxinuls wouldn't spam 50 million 5s, they'd just have a few 5s that replenished if they ran out 23:04:24 a slight pity that the absence of hellions makes monster summon demon substantially less threatening 23:04:46 but they'd get added balrugs etc 23:04:48 I guess deep elf high priests have their own hellfire at least 23:04:48 monqy: could just work on making 3s/4s more threatening 23:05:08 MarvinPA: balrugs are 2s like hellions; I was basing this on eronarn's spell/tier groupings 23:05:13 Eronarn: that works too 23:05:16 oh right, yeah 23:05:29 like neqoxecs need a fixed brain feed 23:05:36 chaos spawns that breathe chaos at range would be terrifying 23:05:40 they'd get sun demons, soul eaters, and ice devils added 23:05:47 which isn't bad 23:05:53 didn't they already have those? 23:05:53 smoke demons with airstrike would be potentially more damage than ones with smite 23:05:59 since they currently get 2s 23:05:59 oh, true 23:06:01 yeah 23:06:30 also i think we should change some of the 3/4s (in this proposal) that are Beefy Branded Melee 23:06:34 @??sun demon 23:06:35 sun demon (082) | Speed: 12 | HD: 10 | Health: 39-72 | AC/EV: 10/12 | Damage: 3004(fire:10-19) | Flags: 05demonic, sense invisible, lev | Res: 06magic(80), 05hellfire, 10elec, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 12cold, 08holy++ | XP: 918. 23:06:36 @??ice devil 23:06:36 ice devil (162) | Speed: 10 | HD: 11 | Health: 43-80 | AC/EV: 12/10 | Damage: 1612(cold:11-32) | Flags: 05demonic | Res: 06magic(88), 12cold+++, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 04fire, 08holy++ | XP: 788. 23:06:38 @??soul eater 23:06:38 soul eater (062) | Speed: 10 | HD: 11 | Health: 43-80 | AC/EV: 18/10 | Damage: 2513(drain) | Flags: 05demonic, evil, see invisible, lev | Res: 06magic(146), 02cold, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 858. 23:06:45 we really don't need all of these 23:06:46 what if ynoxinuls became the smitey 3? I'm thinking this because their current gimmick is summon spam 23:06:50 i think having melee demons is fine 23:07:11 doy: we should absolutely have melee demons, i just think we have too many in 3/4 right now 23:07:12 beasts are the best melee 2 (because they trample) 23:07:21 the problem with them is just that they don't show up early enough anywhere to ever be interesting (except lair:8 and ice caves i guess) 23:07:35 MarvinPA: which? 23:07:38 oh, here's an idea for shadow demons 23:07:40 melee 2s 23:07:44 MarvinPA: ah, yeah 23:07:49 it's a bit curious that sun demons are 12 and the rest are 10 23:07:51 you could give them the antihalo stuff that i'm coding for servitors 23:07:54 (someone make a volcano with sun demons!) 23:07:59 +1 23:08:06 so a shadow demon cloaks the demons around it in darkness, which affects your to-hit negatively, but not theirs 23:08:21 gloom demon 23:08:23 MarvinPA: and red devils except haha demon tridents :( 23:08:42 wait are red devils fire themed? what are red devils anyway 23:08:50 monqy: literally, red devils 23:08:50 dunno 23:08:51 "red" 23:08:55 demons with tridents 23:08:55 like the cartoon-y satan kind 23:08:58 with pitchforks 23:09:00 sometimes demons with demon tridents 23:09:01 and let me guess hairy devils are hairy 23:09:09 and blue devils are blue 23:09:21 monqy: see also, grey/black/yellow/brown snakes 23:09:30 my school's mascot is actually a blue devil 23:09:37 at least anacondas and mambas are interesting 23:09:42 and, well 23:09:43 here's the thing 23:09:46 monqy: right, that's my point 23:09:46 (: 23:09:48 we have a statue of the blue devil 23:09:54 he's completely naked. 23:10:48 even with fancy names the melee demons would be boring. :( they might be interesting at a shallow depth, but not any more than any other hard-hitting melee guy, barring demonic theme 23:11:05 (or did I miss something) 23:11:07 monqy: which is why i think some of them could use some minor tweaks 23:11:13 yeah I agree 23:11:20 I just don't know how to tweak them :( 23:11:33 the thing i said for shadow demons 23:11:37 and for chaos spawn 23:11:47 those two are at least slightly interesting now 23:11:47 maybe give sun demons lava orc style heat aura when they are MAD 23:12:00 i mean you are fighting a SUN after all 23:12:15 wasn't there something on devwiki about blue/red devils making deals with the player? I don't think I liked that, but I probably forgot all of the details 23:12:23 and hairy devils having fleas or something 23:12:44 oh that reminds me i want white imps to be snow imps 23:12:48 and throw snowballs instead of frost 23:12:59 new spell or a special case? 23:13:00 but maybe blue devils could be come snow devils, instead? 23:13:31 monqy: less damage and no potion freezing, but hurts your accuracy 23:13:46 so they're a menace rather than a threat to literally everyone for no reason 23:13:54 sounds good 23:14:12 if only because it makes them not a threat to literally everyone for no reason 23:14:39 those sorts of things have always bugged me 23:14:42 i'd kind of like summon imp to be useful for distracting enemies 23:15:14 so snow imps doing that, iron imps being tiny little slow tanks, imps being blinking and giving them 'taunt' (more chance that enemies focus on them) 23:15:30 shadow imp is the only one where i'm not entirely sure how to make it useful for distraction like that 23:15:42 well, shadow imp has animate dead 23:15:45 which is fairly distracting 23:15:50 yeah, but that only works once stuff starts dying 23:16:01 the darkness thing i mentioned could work for them - a minor darkness halo 23:16:20 it reduces acc when firing or attacking at things in it 23:16:36 which could be just the imp, or you too, or your other summoned allies 23:17:09 anyways, i have a wiki page for demon revamp stuff 23:17:12 should go post this stuff there!! 23:25:35 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:29:05 shadow demon vs soul eater, how should those be recolored? 23:34:40 -!- eternaljwh has joined ##crawl-dev 23:39:16 Is the lava orc code on Gitorious, Eronarn ? if it is, I can't find it. 23:39:24 no 23:39:28 it's on github 23:40:04 https://github.com/Eronarn/Crawling-Chaos/tree/lava_orc 23:42:20 thank you 23:45:31 eternaljwh: fair warning it has known bugs 23:47:37 I'm wanting to look at the lava-orc temperature-gauge alternate mutation screen, first, which I kind of doubt has bugs ;)