00:09:54 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:16:39 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:30:08 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 00:35:56 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:38:25 Windows development builds on CDO updated to: 0.8.0-a0-5780-g8f58253 00:47:31 -!- Jordan7hm has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:54:07 Elynae (L9 OgAE) ASSERT(y >= 1 && y <= sz.y) in 'libutil.cc' at line 801 failed. (D:6) 00:54:13 Elynae (L9 OgAE) ASSERT(y >= 1 && y <= sz.y) in 'libutil.cc' at line 801 failed. (D:6) 00:55:04 -!- Jordan7hm has joined ##crawl-dev 01:01:35 kilobyte: Beginning to fix all that's broken is kind of the point of branching :P 01:01:36 greensnark: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 01:02:04 Trying to stabilise master is like trying to pump out the ocean 01:03:23 !messages 01:03:23 (1/1) dpeg said (7h 40m 49s ago): Yes, the misc item page is good. I just went through it again. 01:41:58 -!- stabwound has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:44:22 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 01:58:31 moin 01:58:40 hey greensnark :) 02:00:36 kilobyte: not sure the "stone_soup-0.8 branch created:0.8.0-a0-5772-gaa4f317" email was broken. previously i haven't received such emails. what else do you expect to see in such an email? 02:01:20 what else is there to tell but what the newly created branch is based on? 02:09:49 Starting Vault can trap you with an unlucky teleport. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3601) by Twilight 02:15:57 Robert Burnham commited to sourceforge git, btw 02:19:52 Jessica can not be recited to with Zin... (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3602) by Twilight 02:37:26 greensnark, Zaba: I'm reading about deciding vault placement at startup.. that would help with easy/hard ice caves, now there's too much easy ice caves because they get the chances of being generated first. 02:38:09 -!- Twinge has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:38:43 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 02:43:03 -!- Twinge has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:46:01 Gotta read all the dungeon builder talk. :P 02:46:18 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 02:47:56 greensnark: Progress report: watched Princess Bride earlier this week, and Lord of Light is actually in the uni library after all. Now I just need to get rid of being blocked from borrowing.. 02:48:08 But I'll finish I Shall Wear Midhnight first. :) 02:48:13 Keskitalo! How's your daughter? :) 02:48:26 She's wonderful. :) 02:48:32 And in good health and spirit too. 02:48:38 I Shall Wear Midnight was disappointing 02:48:52 I just need to read Wise Man's Fear now 02:49:07 syllogism apparently didn't like WMF because of Felurian, so I'm all keen to investigate 02:52:04 I've really enjoyed I Shall Wear Midnight so far, but it just got to Ankh-Morpork and I'm fearful of cameos for the sake of themselves.. probably no Rincewind in the young adult books though. :P 02:52:46 Oh, it seemed much weaker and less funny than the earlier Tiffany Aching books 02:52:58 Although I've always been much more a Maurice fan than a Tiffany Aching fan 02:53:06 Maurice <3 02:53:14 I thought the beginning had surprisingly dark topics. 02:53:29 I thought WMF was good but dragged on a bit in a couple parts 02:54:05 Midnight was dark, and the whole book felt pretty unfunny and disjointed by Pratchett standards 02:54:18 Also the king's death scene was also surprisingly evocative, I rarely get a powerful visual idea about a scene in a book but that happened for me there. 02:54:35 elliptic: Ah, I should totally read it, I've been putting it off because it's so big and I don't want to read it in tiny pieces 02:54:51 Keskitalo: You mean the Baron? :P 02:54:59 Don't recall a king in the story :) 02:54:59 Yes indeed. 02:55:01 :) 02:55:34 I don't mind unfunny, but I do feel apprehensive of going to Ankh-Morpork in the story.. 02:56:14 * greensnark restrains himself from commenting on Wee Mad Arthur 02:56:18 Oh wait 02:56:21 I enjoyed Midnight when I read it a few months ago, but I was also seriously sleep-deprived and waiting around in an airport :P 02:56:30 Ah, I think I just got to that part. 02:56:49 Midnight is to the earlier Tiffany books as Making Money was to Going Postal 02:57:09 I think I already commented Unseen Academicals was very uneven. Some great stuff, some tired rehashing of old characters and jokes. 02:57:14 Yes 02:57:42 greensnark: I read those two back to back, Going Postal was awesome and Making Money was kinda ok. 02:57:48 But Pratchett with Alzheimer's is still better than 95% of the dreck out there 02:57:54 Aye. :) 02:58:03 Keskitalo: Yeah, but Making Money was a pale shadow of Going Postal 02:58:14 Was trying to say that, I agree. :) 02:58:16 Same with I Shall Wear Midnight:) 02:58:30 I'll need to finish it! 02:58:43 Do it fast so I don't have to restrain myself from the spoilers :P 02:58:48 haha :) 02:59:02 I thought we didn't believe in spoilers here on ##crawl-dev! 02:59:38 Oh and Princess Bride, I enjoyed it a lot, but I can't help wishing I had seen it in a sensitive age. :) 03:00:21 -!- Twinge_ has joined ##crawl-dev 03:00:46 Tarn Adams has repeatedly cited Princess Bride as an influence on Dwarf Fortress adventure mode, they want the game to be able to generate fantasy stories and Princess Bride story.. well it just makes sense :D 03:00:50 -!- bhaak has joined ##crawl-dev 03:01:04 Keskitalo: You can rewatch it a couple of times, the filling details are more rewarding than the broad-brush storyline 03:01:17 Primarily the dialogue, it takes a couple of views to dig the dialogue 03:01:20 Yeah, there were tons of subtle jokes 03:01:24 -!- Twinge has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:03:08 Like the prince being able to recognize iocane by smell 03:06:07 Hehe 03:06:22 I loved the Vizzini / Man in Black duel 03:06:27 Vizzini <3 03:18:09 Relase manager! \o/ 03:20:56 Ooh, I like Eronarn's "instant ability" idea for Scrying. 03:26:34 -!- Kurper has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:27:35 oww 03:27:37 I just hit my head :( 03:27:42 aw :| 03:28:00 greensnark: Oh really? I hated Going Postal, I will need to finish Making Money. 03:28:24 due: If you hated Going Postal you won't like Making Money :P 03:28:28 I liked Going Postal 03:28:53 well, we all know due went postal... and didn't stop yet. 03:29:00 just sorry you didn't enjoy that 03:29:16 hah 03:29:23 well, I didn't hate it 03:29:25 I just didn't enjoy it. 03:29:35 which considering I loved almost every other novel is basically hating it. 03:30:44 It had chapters :/ 03:31:18 I think that's a genre/period nod/joke, though I don't know what genre/period. 03:31:19 I only saw the movie of Going Postal and it wasn't bad 03:31:30 due: Have you read Three Men in a Boat? 03:31:40 whereas hogfathers was rather incomprehensible if you didn't read the book 03:31:44 That era of book had the little chapter summaries 03:31:55 Also Three Men in a Boat is totally worth reading in general 03:32:40 I have to admit I don't like Hogfather that much. 03:32:51 The movie or the book? 03:33:39 I didn't enjoy the movie; the book is one of my favourites (with Soul Music and Thief of Time) 03:33:55 The book. I only saw the last half of the movie (this new years eve, in the hospital.. the actor for Teatime was pretty great) 03:34:25 I didn't enjoy Soul Music the first time around, but I got it when I read the Finnish translation, actually. My favourites are Thief of Time and The Truth. 03:34:58 I like too many Pratchetts to want to figure out which my favourite is :P 03:35:11 mm, thief of time is my definitely one of my favourites too 03:36:11 thief of time is great 03:36:31 probably the one i've re-read the most at least 03:36:45 over time, they blur together. he writes too much :) 03:37:00 They totally don't blur together damn you :P 03:37:13 The auditors are always good for a laugh 03:37:22 "Don't feed the elephant" 03:37:25 maybe I didn't read thief of time, I don't know 03:37:42 I read most of the early ones, when he was producing a gazillion books per year 03:38:11 Now we're discussing Discworld books here locally too :P 03:38:42 small gods is certainly a favorite of mine 03:38:45 bhaak: ditto 03:38:49 The problem with Discworld books is that people keep borrowing them and you never get them back 03:39:17 For instance, I'm pretty certain I used to have a copy of Maskerade but hanged if I've been able to find it recently 03:39:32 don't lend books, you wouldn't do that to your kids, do you? 03:40:07 I've been buying mostly Kindle books recently, although Amazon DRM sucks, just because I never lose Kindle books 03:40:50 greensnark: about books you won't be able to get back: there's a new OOTS print-only book. And for some sick reason it won't be distributed outside of online orders in one go. No reprints. 03:41:04 Oh 03:41:07 I should get that 03:41:39 Why no reprints? 03:41:50 because they're too costly 03:41:53 I just use libraries, no room in the shelves (and no e-readers either. or money) 03:42:17 I wonder why then many book sellers switch to "print on demand" then 03:42:30 nice, the german wikipedia has a table that states the themes of the discworld books 03:43:09 especially if some "print on demand" services take money from you as an author that your book is available 03:45:16 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:46:49 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 03:55:32 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:05:08 -!- ekiM has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:08:52 -!- ekiM has joined ##crawl-dev 04:17:45 !lg * map=forest_0.8 04:17:45 1. Gilly the Metallomancer (L26 DDEE), worshipper of Kikubaaqudgha, blasted by a spriggan druid (angry trees) on D:26 (forest 0.8) on 2011-03-16, with 493052 points after 144582 turns and 14:34:07. 04:22:01 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:22:27 !lm * uniq=the Enchantress 04:22:28 12. [2011-03-17] valrus the Eclecticist (L22 MuVM) killed the Enchantress on turn 89893. (D:26) 04:22:47 "Thief of Time" *is* my favourite pratchett, I think. 04:28:07 -!- evilmike has quit [] 04:50:42 03kilobyte * r8d7bc6192548 10/crawl-ref/source/makefile: Use sane defaults when prefix starts with /opt 05:39:53 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:40:35 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 05:40:35 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 05:45:45 ##crawl-bookclub 05:49:51 Duplicate name in CREDITS (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3603) by hayenne 05:50:02 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:50:49 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 05:50:49 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 06:11:41 moin 06:11:41 Zaba: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 06:11:43 !messages 06:11:43 (1/1) jpeg said (15h 51m 33s ago): dat/des/builder/layout.des:74: attempt to call global 'layout_type' (a nil value) 06:11:49 jpeg should have just rebuilt crawl 06:31:31 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 06:39:56 Whoa, my first fire crab. 06:41:38 By the way, I'd like to propose getting rid of the extra lives for felids 06:41:44 I've always felt it doesn't fit in with Crawl 06:42:03 We could instead give felids a bonus to Dodging as their hp drops or similar 06:42:14 Some close-to-death bonus rather than extra lives 06:42:31 we were just discussing that in ##crawl, i'd completely support it having played a few now and seen how it works out ingame 06:43:35 they could be quite interesting and still strong with a different kind of boost to make up for lack of items 06:44:08 Yes, some other boost rather than non-permadeath would be fine with me 06:44:20 Well, I've had a blast with this FeBe with many close situations while not feeling underpowered at all, and I haven't lost a life.. so it doesn't sound that bad to me. 06:44:25 Having now played felid through to a 3-runer, my feedback is that I felt completely at liberty to be sloppy as hell for most of the game, including Zot:5 where I did a bunch of bone headed stuff then died and ended up at the stairs with the orb. 06:44:38 It's really opposed to a large part of the roguelike philosophy I think. 06:45:01 ekiM: i think it might actually have been you i was watching when i realised just how silly extra lives are, then :P 06:45:10 I think giving kitties some kind of near-death bonus would work better, possibly combined with other buffs, yeah 06:45:13 I'm expecting, when I do lose a life, it'll be anti-climatic 06:45:30 MarvinPA: I think you said "Oh no! :< " "... oh, felids." on IRC, yeah. :P 06:45:33 i remember tuning in to a cdo game just in time for the orb run and panicking that they were about to die and trying to give advice 06:45:35 and then yeah 06:45:36 Goddamn open levels one after another, now with yaktaurs 06:45:41 just respawned and left safely 06:45:55 I lowed raising my own corpse on my FeDK though :P 06:45:58 Keskitalo, in a recent game? 06:45:59 loved 06:46:06 Zaba: Just now, but only three, I'm just whining 06:46:18 Keskitalo, I did recently change the distribution of level layouts 06:46:20 Erm 06:46:29 Just two apparently, sorry 06:47:01 Really, if you removed extra lives altogether felids would be a low-middling race at worst. A little buff when close to death sounds interesting. How about this idea: if you get hit for more than half your damage and die, you're put on 1 HP instead (in the same place, and with the big EV boost or whatever it is). That could be an "extra life" mechanic that doesn't do away with death permenance as such. 06:47:14 *altogether with no other change 06:47:49 That sounds ok, pretty close to life protection from gods, but I think it'd be fitting 06:48:44 The new elf wall colours are nice.. I have no idea when this was changed. 06:48:57 so are felids going to be disabled for 0.8, or is the release going to be delayed? :P 06:49:22 Keskitalo: New Elf wall calors are nosiy :P 06:49:37 But there's only 5 levels of them now, so it's ok! ;) 06:49:50 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:49:50 I don't mind, I like it. 06:51:28 I thought it was cool, not sure what the flavor is though, other than that elves like interior design. 06:51:48 I like it, it makes the branch somewhat less dull 06:52:27 ekiM: I thought that was a given 06:55:35 Dear lord, phyphor 06:55:45 * greensnark withdraws brain from ##crawl 06:57:13 (: 06:58:32 if you want to be a happy game developer, don't listen to your users 06:58:41 Not that one, anyway. 06:58:48 bhaak: Incidentally, phyphor is a big fan of Elbereth 06:58:50 if you want to be a popular game developer ... I don't know 06:58:52 see no users, hear no users, speak no users 06:59:21 you should add YAFM to crawl when somebody inscribes "Elbereth" :-) 06:59:54 !gamesby Elbereth 06:59:55 Elbereth has played 948 games, between 20100802 and 20110313, won 4 (0.4%), high score 821863, total score 11304803, total turns 6211958, total time 613:28:00. 07:02:17 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 07:02:20 MarvinPA: Nice work on the balance stuff, by the way :) 07:02:35 If ##crawl is getting steamed up, it's obviously good work :) 07:02:40 hehe 07:02:45 except the geomancy changes..... 07:02:59 Was that the one that made Lee's good? 07:03:16 the one that took summon elemental out of the book ;,( 07:03:27 Ah, didn't recall that one :P 07:06:22 03zaba * rd14013eccd0d 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/builder/layout.des: Restore old behaviour of random wall material substitution on _plan_* levels. 07:06:32 03zaba * rd0da535417dc 10/crawl-ref/ (5 files in 4 dirs): Split the "layout" tag into "overwritable" and "layout". 07:19:42 twice now i've been told 'the xxx is too close now for your liking' without the xxx even being in LOS, is this a known thing 07:20:18 Did they move out on your turn? 07:20:21 I think it happens when they are fleeing and they move out of LOS the same "turn" you see them. 07:20:44 fleeing, wandering 07:20:56 oh i see. it's a big confusing since i don't see anything at all. 07:20:59 bit 07:25:06 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 07:27:31 moin moin 07:27:48 should I switch CDO to the 0.8 branch already? 07:33:38 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 07:37:12 -!- casmith789 has joined ##crawl-dev 07:45:43 do I recall correctly that there was some bug report regarding metal levels in lair? 07:45:50 -!- ais523 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:45:52 they should no longer appear 07:46:13 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 07:54:44 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 07:54:59 there's no description for Breathe Energy 08:00:27 "GS is pretty unbad for a troggite 08:12:30 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 08:13:11 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 08:17:06 -!- ais523 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:19:37 Tab not repeating starting selection (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3604) by ortoslon 08:23:21 Morning 08:24:11 -!- Twilight has joined ##crawl-dev 08:24:38 -!- Twilight is now known as Guest47484 08:24:51 -!- Guest79869 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:28:26 -!- ais523_ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:38:42 -!- ais523_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 08:40:09 -!- frogfrog has joined ##crawl-dev 08:54:14 03j-p-e-g * r1a63cf34e275 10/crawl-ref/source/ (menu.cc mon-util.cc): Add an assertion. 08:54:25 03j-p-e-g * r18eb42aa8985 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-util.cc monster.cc monster.h): Fix #2927: Don't place fake (db search) player ghosts on the map. 08:58:14 -!- jpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 08:58:55 !tell Napkin Don't switch yet, branching has been postponed until kilobyte has finished whatever he's got planned. 08:58:55 jpeg: OK, I'll let Napkin know. 08:59:52 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 09:00:20 moin [jd]peg 09:01:07 ha, the sibling bond in action! 09:01:31 Good afternoon! 09:01:36 Zaba: sorry about the noise, I often forget compiling - only I'm usually not on IRC when it happens 09:01:55 so we're gonna nerf Felids next? 09:02:28 Not sure. Is it really necessary? I'd like to know what elliptic and zipcode have to say on the matter. 09:02:56 I rather dislike the "teleporting away from danger" mechanic 09:03:06 The nine lives? 09:03:08 Xom's reviving is powerful enough, and that leaves you at low hp 09:03:37 yeah, been reading the chat log again :) 09:03:38 jpeg, no problem 09:03:47 !seen kilobyte 09:03:47 I last saw kilobyte at Thu Mar 17 11:50:17 2011 UTC (2h 13m 30s ago) saying nyaakitty: didnt drop a corpse, too on ##crawl. 09:03:51 roger, jpeg - thanks :) 09:03:52 Napkin: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 09:04:02 I need a quick primer on git. What's the best way to revert some old commit I still have to find? 09:04:26 first, you need the commit id 09:04:39 search git log for keywords, or use git blame 09:04:51 what are you looking for? 09:05:03 Won't tell, let me try. Otherwise I'll never learn it. 09:05:15 dpeg: I think the extra lives mechanic isn't one that works in crawl. The no armour/weapons is sufficient to differentiate felids IMO. I'd buff their hp to kobold levels or similar and get rid of all extra lives 09:05:23 hmmm 09:05:31 plan_4 returns a bool. I wonder why. 09:05:36 dpeg: you can do git log "file name" to reduce the number of relevant commits 09:05:43 jpeg: awesome 09:06:19 casmith789: fine with me 09:06:27 Everything about Felids should be discussed with Adam. 09:06:28 we might bring it back later if we can get it balanced 09:06:38 sure 09:07:11 I found Felids a bit strange for the longest time until I realised that they can be interpreted as an Egyptian myth rather than puss-in-boots. 09:07:55 they're still strange :) 09:08:48 Yes, but that makes it easier for me to understand them within Crawl. I wonder if the Egyptian link can be indicated somehow. 09:09:28 I just see a trove related commit with message "Maximum charges of wands is 15, not 16. (greensnark)" but just yesterday I recharged a wand of flame to 17. What's wrong? 09:09:44 depends on the wand 09:09:56 digging etc go to 24 or something 09:10:30 healing goes to 9. I would assume that fire etc go to 15 09:10:30 Ok, so it was about some specific wand, I guess. 09:10:32 and we still have two max charge values (one for generation, one for recharging), bleh 09:10:33 did troves ask for wands of fire/cold/draining at one point? those only go up to 15 i think 09:10:41 MarvinPA: yes, they did. 09:10:57 So I did find the commit... it seems I only want to revert a part of it. What now? 09:10:59 heh, and now they ask for manuals of fighting :P 09:11:30 MarvinPA: Does the trove check whether such a manual exists in the game already? 09:12:06 i'm not sure, that might be one of the nastier requests 09:12:27 generally the new trove costs seem pretty good to me though 09:12:57 manuals are hard to find and not very useful, so to me going into the trove would be a no brainer on a manual of fighting 09:13:04 MarvinPA: yes, elliptic did a good job. 09:13:13 casmith789: that is because manuals themselves are problematic. 09:13:18 dpeg: not sure how to handle that 09:13:29 jpeg: no problem, I'll then just do it by hand. 09:13:40 dpeg: depending on the commit it might be easier to directly change the offending part, or to revert and reintroduce whatever is left 09:13:46 dpeg, git revert -n might be helpful 09:15:27 git revert -n the commit, git reset HEAD and git add -p some of the files. Maybe there's something more optimal, too. 09:16:21 -!- frogfrog has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:16:30 http://www.kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-revert.html 09:17:01 I am not even able to get the diff file of that old commit :O 09:17:15 git diff HEAD 09:17:30 or something similar should do the trick (and yes, I look at git help diff) 09:17:39 git show $commit 09:17:55 I had that recently, but I was trying to access a commit from two years ago of a file that no longer exists 09:19:05 work, back later 09:19:19 use a website! 09:19:23 http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=48aafb7... 09:19:42 just use git show for single commits 09:23:38 -!- jpeg has quit [] 09:26:24 03galehar * rd2d5b991aadd 10/crawl-ref/source/ (4 files in 2 dirs): Remove omndra's title screens. 09:26:36 03galehar * r8e53a985cf99 10/crawl-ref/source/misc.cc: Increase the chance of bleeding on walls. 09:26:44 -!- ais523_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:28:20 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 09:28:30 hi 09:38:16 03MarvinPA * r33caaf30b7c3 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: Remove rF+ and rC+ from Nergalle 09:38:26 03MarvinPA * rc85c110efe22 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: Boost Mnoleg's HP a bit 09:38:27 03MarvinPA * rc0dc4f46d8fa 10/crawl-ref/ (docs/options_guide.txt settings/init.txt source/initfile.cc): Save weapon selection for quarterstaves with new games 09:42:09 -!- lorimer_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:43:26 -!- lorimer has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:56:24 back, thanks for help 09:56:57 -!- ais523_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:01:29 I know this is probably irrelevant compared to all the bugfixes etc needed for .8 but why is there an arbitrary restriction on ozocubu's armour? 10:01:34 -!- blackpenguin has quit [Quit: reboot] 10:01:51 casmith789: the idea is it makes actual armour, which you can't wear on top of hard armours 10:02:45 I see. Weird that it works on leather then 10:02:47 -!- lorimer_ has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:03:12 personally i want to see it be a summ spell that melds your armor and replaces it 10:03:53 kilobyte always wants a delay before branching. He complained about the 0.6 branch and the 0.7 branch as well :P 10:04:00 Has my reply hit c-r-d yet? 10:04:11 It got trapped in moderation since I'd unsubscribed :P 10:05:17 greensnark: nope, haven't seen your mail. 10:05:25 Ah, guess Nat hasn't gotten to it yet 10:05:51 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 10:06:17 -!- lorimer has joined ##crawl-dev 10:06:25 but without unicode, dcss just sucks! 10:06:27 It's fine to hold off on branching, but there should really be a reasonable release date the team wants to meet 10:06:42 This "we'll release when it's ready" is NH bullshit :P 10:06:55 casmith789: must be a residue of the light/heavy armour distinction 10:06:55 Drop features as necessary to make the date 10:07:12 I'd like to get some more complaints about the increased amount of open levels first 10:07:13 err 10:07:21 greensnark: well, kilobyte mentioned a list of problematic issues (Ench/Hex, Tornado, troves), and we immediately proceeded to tackle them. 10:07:26 I mean, I would like to test the recent dungeon builder breakage for some more time 10:07:31 damn, still wrong 10:07:51 dpeg: The list of problem issues is very good, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't branch 10:08:07 greensnark: yes, in particular because we could solve them in one session :) 10:08:15 And if kilobyte wants the unicode branch to go into 0.8, he should really commit to a date 10:08:37 casmith789: the idea behind it is sound, I think: we don't want an AC 30 character to slap on another 10 AC from Ozocubus' 10:08:49 greensnark: he did... mentioned this weekend 10:08:57 Since nobody wants to name dates, let me toss out March 31 as code freeze date: we branch 0.8 *then* and if unicode doesn't want to make it, it doesn't 10:09:15 Then an April third-week release date would be doable 10:09:27 i guess it just seems a bit arbitrary that it works on leather armour but nothing heavier now that there's no explicit light/heavy armour 10:09:36 it is mentioned in the spell description at least 10:10:11 -!- ais523 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:10:40 greensnark: yes. And amen. 10:10:56 Let's get kilobyte to agree to the dates and put them up on the wiki 10:11:04 Without a date we're pretty much as bad as the NH team :P 10:11:13 greensnark, should also put them into the topic here :P 10:11:19 Yep! 10:11:23 MarvinPA: yes, that should be replaced by a gradual effect on EVP 10:11:49 My email also proposes two fixed release dates per year, which would make this kind of planning a lot easier 10:11:51 replace by merging armor!!1 10:12:05 So we don't always have this omigod-why-did-we-branch quarrel before releases 10:12:23 greensnark: With the slight difference that if a single NH dev voices "hm, perhaps not quite so hasty", then everyone will go "okay, let's do it next year". 10:12:31 greensnark: imo two releases and two tournaments a year :D 10:12:34 -!- lorimer_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:12:36 * bhaak puts " [...] we're pretty much as bad as the NH team" into his quotes db 10:12:47 dpeg: I think the problem is someone on the NH team died and the rest of the team is waiting for the corpse to sign off on the 4.0 release 10:13:07 greensnark: you cannot blame Izchak on this. 10:13:51 -!- lorimer has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:13:52 Oh, I'm not blaming the dead, just the living :P 10:14:32 I know you guys are desperate for another NH release but you don't have to keep going on about it. bhaak's doing a good job, could play unnethack while you wait 10:14:45 casmith789: bhaak isn't releasing his stuff either :P 10:15:03 bhaak is all "LOL, public svn, they can check out the bleeding edge code anytime" :P 10:15:06 !tell elliptic There's a fun report of a trove asking for a manual (of fighting). Is this (a) still valid for your new lists (I couldn't find that), and (b) if so, does the manual exist somewhere? 10:15:06 dpeg: OK, I'll let elliptic know. 10:15:22 -!- blackpenguin has joined ##crawl-dev 10:15:23 bhaak: I think you promised an Un release something like 6 months ago? :P 10:15:35 ahem 10:16:01 -!- Unrodney has joined ##crawl-dev 10:16:11 Aha, he did a stealth release :P 10:16:16 Unrodney: last_release unnethack 10:16:16 bhaak: UnNetHack 3.5.3 was released 5 months and 7 days ago! 10:16:16 No other reason Unrodney joins us :P 10:16:29 Oh, you mean it hasn't been six months yet? 10:16:34 nope 10:16:37 Felt like it! 10:16:45 * greensnark is pining for a new Un release. 10:16:57 lol, it's also wrong 10:17:20 there was a 3.5.3.1 bugfix release, but the changelog of that isn't yet in the trunk changelog :-) 10:17:32 No no, bugfix releases don't count 10:17:37 Nice try, though 10:17:40 casmith789: I am not desperate for a new NH release (wouldn't play it), but I do love me a fine punching bag. Not very transcendental, I know. 10:17:59 -!- blackpenguin has quit [Client Quit] 10:18:03 bhaak: you have to get a 4 in front somehow. 10:18:33 dpeg: New trove should make it clear that it won't destroy the rune, I keep seeing players confused thinking it will eat the rune 10:18:56 dpeg: I was thinking on getting 3.6.0 this or the release after that. 10:19:19 !tell elliptic <+greensnark> dpeg: New trove should make it clear that it won't destroy the rune, I keep seeing players confused thinking it will eat the rune 10:19:20 okay, dpeg 10:19:20 dpeg: OK, I'll let elliptic know. 10:19:39 Oh, elliptic's working on the troves? 10:19:40 Nice 10:20:07 Wait, troves can ask for certain runes? 10:20:11 greensnark: It's been a bit unfair... I talked to him about troves, then lured him into writing down some ideas, then he did a patch, and how he's got a task. 10:20:21 Does the trove tell you where that rune can be found? People might not know about the "look up item" feature. 10:20:22 dpeg: What do you think about removing extra lives for felids? 10:20:33 There was a discussion upstairs, but you may have been awol 10:20:35 I just found an hour ago something interesting on reddit. somebody asked them about nethack releases and got this "Yes, nethack still being worked on. When we'll release, I cannot say. That requires a lot of energy." http://www.reddit.com/r/roguelikes/comments/fvnsp/whatever_happened_to_nethack/ 10:20:46 greensnark: no real opinion. I would like to stress their Egyptian background. 10:20:47 bhaak: Hey, who posted that? 10:21:03 bhaak, isn't NH notorious for slow releases? 10:21:26 Is kilobyte going to be around today? I want to float the felid proposal to him 10:21:46 The idea is to lose the extra lives and give kitties some other bonus, probably a bonus that increases as they get closer to death hpwise 10:22:00 Cryp71c: yes, since the latter half of the 90ies. before that, they released way more often :) 10:22:01 * dpeg points out that you can keep adding positive numbers and still not end up somewhere, say at 4.0. 10:22:03 greensnark, that would be cool. Felids are quite boring in that effect. 10:22:06 Or to convert the extra-life to some kind of life saving which leaves the cat on the spot instead of teleporting to safety 10:22:43 NH had fairly regular release for two decades, but 3.4.3 seems to be it. 10:23:08 In other words, "still being worked on" does not imply release, especially with "requires a lot of energy" tacked at the end. 10:23:14 It's been seven years now! 10:23:32 -!- Unrodney has left ##crawl-dev 10:23:34 -!- Kurper has joined ##crawl-dev 10:23:49 I am here because I read "nethack 4.0 style releases" on crd and greensnark you are awesome. 10:23:52 -!- Unrodney has joined ##crawl-dev 10:23:52 dpeg: Someone on the reddit thread said "Crawl happened" :P 10:23:57 rax: <3 10:24:02 Unrodney: last_release nethack 10:24:03 bhaak: NetHack 3.4.3 was released 7 years, 3 months and 9 days ago! 10:24:11 -!- Unrodney has left ##crawl-dev 10:24:39 i should add more ! to that message 10:24:56 Is there a reason lightning, draining have 3 less max charge than fire, cold wands? 10:25:44 Also fireball having 9? I would think cold fire lightning draining are equal, and better than fireball. 10:25:44 it almost sounds as if the release "requires a lot of energy". they could release, but adding stuff is easier than actually releasing stuff. Although I don't really believe they are adding stuff 10:26:03 rax: cao is running low on disk space again. I'm planning to shuffle a bunch of ttyrecs off to my server this weekend to make space, but if you could give the VM some extra space, that would be good too 10:27:10 lightning and fireball probably let you attack stuff out of los, dunno 10:27:44 i don't think lightning does 10:27:48 fireball might 10:28:35 Hey, Erik comments on that reddit. The zombies are up :) 10:28:59 greensnark: your mail got through 10:29:09 dpeg: What, really? 10:29:12 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 10:29:16 bhaak: Yes, I guess Nat just woke up :) 10:29:18 yes! 14 days ago 10:29:35 Nat sounds like a US west-coast timezoner 10:30:26 Erik: "For now, I am obsessed with Sangband (after years being obsessed with Dungeon Crawl)." 10:30:46 He was a Sangband fan even back in the day 10:30:55 He's also a fan of unlimited Pan :P 10:31:05 These facts are probably *completely* unrelated :P 10:31:28 yes, he told me not to mess with the holy scumming trinity when he left: Pan, Mummies, Nemelex :) 10:31:44 I remember he was doing a foodless Zinner and he switched to cdo because Henzell kept adding "Farming" to his titles :) 10:31:57 After every major release, I send a short mail to former devs like Linley, Erik, Paul. 10:32:25 Have I ever mentioned that you're a kind, thoughtful person? 10:32:31 Underneath all the writhing tentacles 10:32:45 Anyone worked in the fight code recently? I was discussing with Eronarn yesterday a more unified implementation for tracking / triggering on-hit/on-miss/on-dodge/etc. effects for both players and monsters that I plan on implementing at some point soon 10:33:02 * dpeg is afraid that greensnark has suddenly become sick. Where's the vitriol? :) 10:34:10 -!- eith has quit [Quit: sleep] 10:34:31 dpeg: Don't make me mention your oklob underpant fetish 10:35:01 I'm sure dpeg can prove that his ancestries is full of warrior and pillagers. but he can only push around some weak programmers 10:36:30 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 10:36:40 hi elliptic! 10:36:47 hi dpeg 10:36:48 elliptic: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 10:36:49 It's a trap! 10:36:51 bhaak: and even that only very incompetently 10:36:56 :) 10:36:58 KA_BOOM 10:37:44 dpeg: manual of fighting trove is just a shop item 10:37:50 has to exist in a shop 10:38:30 greensnark: ... I might be able to? I don't even know. :( I know there's space, I'm not sure if I can do it easily though. 10:38:43 I do want to give it more space eventually but I'm not sure if I can do it without extended downtime. 10:39:01 rax: It's not urgent, I'll move the ttyrecs offserver soon, but it would be nice sometime 10:39:16 elliptic: okay, thought so 10:39:18 greensnark: about the rune troves... you do get different messages currently for them, and I haven't noticed people being confused about this on ##crawl, but I'm sure the messages could be improved 10:39:30 elliptic: I saw some complaints on SA :) 10:39:41 Someone was asked for a slimy rune and they were a little riled :P 10:40:01 SAers need more direct hints, of course. Short sentences, captital letters. 10:40:28 And a cattle prod 10:40:34 part of the problem might be that if you just check the trove price by xv-ing it, you don't get special text 10:40:56 or maybe you do then, but you don't if you just check ctrl-o, I forget 10:41:41 there is one way of checking trove price which avoids any flavour text at all and just shows you (price) 10:42:02 so I think this is mainly an issue for people who are already very used to the old troves 10:42:20 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:42:34 I don't know, I haven't seen the SA complaints, maybe they made it clearer why they thought the rune would be taken from them? 10:42:43 it's ctrl+o that just shows the price, yeah 10:43:51 elliptic: One sec, let me find it 10:43:58 It may also just be that the person didn't want to do Slime, not sure 10:43:58 Well, can we hint at it better in Ctrl-O? Like "Give dragon armour" vs "Show slimy rune"? 10:44:39 greensnark: that's exactly the motivation behind this price :) 10:44:43 dpeg: yeah, something like that sounds reasonable 10:44:48 oh xv says "This portal requires the horn of Geryon to function." too 10:44:56 so i guess that's not great wording either 10:45:06 MarvinPA, elliptic: can one of you improve the current state? 10:45:13 Stupid SA forums and their lousy ads 10:45:43 the wording of the SA post looked to me like they just didn't want to do slime, nothing wrong with making the messages a bit clearer if possible though 10:46:27 Yeah, possible 10:46:47 The overview saying "Trove: D:11 (slimy rune of Zot)" is also a little vague 10:47:08 -!- blackpenguin has joined ##crawl-dev 10:47:11 greensnark: ^ 10:47:31 "(show slimy rune)" would do 10:47:34 Yep 10:47:45 Show me the money 10:47:47 Sorry 10:48:20 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 10:48:28 dpeg: I could improve it, yeah... change ctrl-o screen to (Show slimy rune of Zot) and tweak the wording for xv a bit? 10:48:37 elliptic: yes, please 10:49:03 perhaps "present" rather than "show", but you're all native speakers, not I 10:49:06 speaking of troves, there was a recent bug report about a trove not accepting an item it should... but I couldn't seem to download the save file 10:49:20 elliptic: was that before or after your patch? 10:50:36 after, but there were a lot of bugs with that sort of thing in the past also 10:51:21 judging from the older bug reports, there is a decent chance that the person just misread what the trove wanted or something... which is why I was wondering whether anyone else could download the savefile 10:51:47 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:51:54 Just need Napkin to give you file download permissions 10:52:03 mmh? 10:52:04 Napkin: Can you give elliptic permission to download CDO saves 10:52:08 no, that's not the issue 10:52:13 No? 10:52:15 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2625 10:52:21 aren't you dev in Mantis? 10:52:30 the person uploaded a local save somewhere 10:52:39 Oh, ugh 10:52:54 and I can't download it, was just wondering if anyone else could 10:53:01 Oh, it downloads here 10:53:04 the sendspace link works for me 10:53:06 yes 10:53:19 !coffee Napkin 10:53:19 * Henzell hands Napkin a barrel of soy latte, brewed by the Serpent of Hell. 10:53:22 Nice 10:53:27 will attach it 10:53:36 hm, strange... anyway, can someone check whether there is really a bug or whether the person was just incompetent? 10:53:41 or re-attach it, yeah 10:54:07 done 10:54:18 thanks 10:54:19 greensnarking :) 10:54:31 nice to see you around 10:54:32 he was trying to give it a storm dragon armour 10:54:37 and it wants a dragon armour 10:54:50 right, thought it was something like that 10:54:51 i guess that's an understandable mistake to make 10:55:02 Napkin: Hi, yes, it's been a while :) 10:55:14 Fire dragons. (: 10:55:14 good argument in favour of renaming dragons to fire dragons, i forget who was fanatical about that idea :P 10:55:21 MarvinPA: Ero :P 10:55:25 that was an eronarn special 10:55:28 ahah yeah 10:55:39 He's been complaining about vanilla dragons since approx 2007 :) 10:56:09 Does make sense, I admit, but I don't like the name "fire dragon" 10:56:17 nice hat of the alchemist and +6 slaying on this mdfi 10:56:32 and +4,+7 mace as their main weapon :( 10:57:09 oh +10 slaying! if only my mdfi were so successful 10:57:43 greensnark: volcano dragon! 10:57:56 kind of like how it's storm dragon, not lightning dragon 10:58:04 and swamp dragon, not poison (or green, or brown) dragon 10:58:05 hotdragon 10:58:07 !tell kilobyte Is end of March a reasonable date for 0.8 branch + unicode? Can we commit to say, an April 24 0.8 release? 10:58:08 greensnark: OK, I'll let kilobyte know. 10:58:19 ice dragon => glacier dragon! 10:58:56 !tell kilobyte What do you think of the proposals to remove felid extra lives and replace it with some kind of buff (perhaps extra EV) that increases as the cat's hp % drops? 10:58:56 greensnark: OK, I'll let kilobyte know. 10:59:30 why even keep felids if they're losing the extra life gimmick 10:59:31 !tell kilobyte An alternative or additional proposal would be to remove explicit extra lives, and make it work like TSO lifesaving, with the cat left behind at the trouble spot 10:59:31 greensnark: OK, I'll let kilobyte know. 10:59:39 volcano dragon sounds cool aside from the fact that they currently only appear in approximately one volcano 10:59:53 without the extra life gimmick they still have the item restriction gimmick 10:59:58 Inferno dragon. 11:00:05 MarvinPA: Heads up: Eronarn hates item restriction gimmicks :P 11:00:07 which is a decent enough gimmick i think 11:00:10 heh 11:00:15 do felids really need a change from the current state? they've already been nerfed a few times 11:00:20 MarvinPA: it's a bad gimmick until it's made to compare sensibly to forms 11:00:45 the extra lives are very powerful but people still don't find felids trivial to win or anything 11:01:04 ekiM: campfire dragon; drops marshmallow chunks 11:01:22 elliptic: i think the idea is more that extra lives are a problematic mechanic 11:01:37 i sort of liked it at first but now i'm not so keen on it personally, at least 11:01:54 elliptic: I'll admit most of the Fe-are-way-too-easy reports are FeBe, but the extra-life thing bothers me at a more visceral level :) 11:01:56 * dpeg says that Felids would make a fine unlockable species :) 11:02:22 and there was a good forum post by someone getting their first ever win with their first ever attempt at a felid and complaining about how easy it was (although yes, that was febe too) :P 11:02:27 Most of my Fe knowledge is hearsay, so I'll defer to folks who've played them 11:03:06 !won * crace=fe start>20110301 11:03:07 * (crace=fe start>20110301) has won 3 times in 447 games (0.67%): 2xFeBe 1xFeWr 11:03:11 FeWr was really easy (post-nerfs). And yeah extra lives makes Zot and the ascent a bad joke. 11:03:20 that's only three wins online so far this month 11:03:34 !won * crace=fe start>20110201 start<20110301 11:03:34 * (crace=fe start>20110201 start<20110301) has won 10 times in 473 games (2.11%): 4xFeBe 3xFeCr 1xFeFE 1xFeMo 1xFePa 11:03:41 dpeg: You still talking about unlockables? :P 11:03:50 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cats_in_ancient_Egypt 11:04:01 Hey, the old Egyptions mummified cats! 11:04:09 the nerfs kilobyte applied a few weeks back to felid melee have had some effect 11:04:10 Felids in Tomb? 11:04:23 I believe Eronarn has already suggested that mummies and vampires should be race modifiers rather than independent species 11:04:31 So let's not go there :P 11:04:38 greensnark: that is an old proposal. Let's not go there. 11:05:02 I think ToME had extensive race modifiers 11:05:14 And someone made a Crawl variant with race modifiers, including vampires and skeletons 11:05:30 Apparently getting hit by a mace as a skeleton did ungodly damage 11:05:31 tome has skeletons and stuff, but they work like crawl races 11:05:45 !tell kilobyte Sorry for the storm of mails. In my opinion, Felids can stay like they are for 0.8 (only very little playing though). Are you familiar with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cats_in_ancient_Egypt ? 11:05:45 dpeg: OK, I'll let kilobyte know. 11:05:46 skeletons being a race modifier would be consistent with monsters 11:05:48 Eronarn: Which band had race modifiers? I'm pretty sure there was one 11:05:52 most of my felid experience is just after they were first implemented, and i think my first two wins abused broken ash stuff so i guess i should try a more recent one 11:05:55 Maybe an older Tome? 11:06:11 greensnark: that sounds right, yeah, i know it's been done in some band before 11:06:14 i don't play them much though 11:06:17 A Tome of Destruction, I dearly hope. 11:06:36 Hehe, poor kilobyte 11:06:51 We should send him a few more messages 11:07:27 Eronarn, rar 11:09:04 hiya, Cryp71c 11:10:23 Eronarn, planning on -if I have time today- laying out some of the basics for what we talked about yesterday. Do you think it would be suited to just be functions in fight, or perhaps be methods on the actor, player, or monster class(es)? 11:11:25 When I add the commit message "partially revert (commit number)", how many digits are used? 11:11:48 When in doubt, past the whole hash 11:11:50 7 is usually enough to distinguish a commit..usually. 11:11:55 but whole hash is better, yeah. 11:11:56 dpeg: the egyptians mummified almost everything! 11:12:24 Cryp71c: probably i'd go like this: enum in enum.h, code points in fight.cc in relevant places, function itself in fight.cc, any functions that need to be broken out go into mon-util or mon-stuff as a general rule but player.cc if there's a player version 11:12:27 * greensnark mummifies bhaak. 11:12:40 greensnark: sorry to spray water, but you're loo late. 11:12:56 bhaak is well-known in Switzerland for being the coding mummy. 11:13:01 Eronarn, why in enum.h? 11:13:11 dpeg: You mean he's already a mummy? 11:13:28 * bhaak feels more like a coding zombie 11:13:29 Or already some kind of undead, perhaps? 11:13:40 Eronarn, we're trying to move things *from* enum.h because it's such a centralized pain in the neck. 11:14:03 So all enums don't go into enum.h anymore? 11:14:47 sure, it can go somewhere else then 11:15:00 Cryp71c, they shouldn't 11:15:22 they should go into relevant files that are then only included by things that really need it 11:15:26 ok, so we can put the enums in fight.h since they're combat-related. 11:16:05 I thought enum.h only had enums which are saved. So when you mess with it, you also have to fix tags.cc 11:18:18 -!- blackpenguin has quit [Quit: reboot] 11:19:18 enum.h also has a bunch of enums that are not saved 11:19:42 It used to be a big list of every enum ever, but it's better to put your enum in a local .h if possible 11:21:11 externs.h has an epic header 11:23:07 Eronarn, do you think this unified combat control logic should not only be the unified implementation for on-(event) effects, but for generalized combat as well (eg, within the code / function for ATK_TRIED_ATTACK (or whatever)) we calculate to hit and other pertinent stuff for general combat? 11:23:36 -!- blackpenguin has joined ##crawl-dev 11:24:08 no 11:24:21 that's way too wide-reaching 11:24:31 start with something small first 11:26:01 greensnark: in the mail to c-r-d, congratulations on picking the best example of force-time releases. With Ubuntu, there's little else to argue about. 11:26:01 kilobyte: You have 4 messages. Use !messages to read them. 11:26:32 less reliability in "stable" releases than in Debian experimental, even though they're based on it 11:27:54 Is it more technically accurate to say that an attack that does not hit either a) Missed or b) Was Dodged ? 11:28:39 -!- ortoslon has quit [Quit: bye] 11:28:55 Cryp71c: that depends. a) is a mistake on behalf of the attacker, b) is a successful action of the defender. 11:29:01 dpeg: the myth of nine lives is far younger than Egypt, as far as I can tell 11:29:30 not sure though -- the article you linked to doesn't say anything on this topic though 11:29:31 dpeg, the code treats them the same, though..doesn't it? Or does it distinguish between misses and dodges? 11:29:32 kilobyte: Thanks :P 11:29:40 Cryp71c: right now it does not distinguish, except in the case of phase shift 11:29:49 kilobyte: I'm not trying to get on your case here, you do know that, right? :) 11:29:50 in which case you get a message saying whether it was responsible for you avoiding the attack 11:30:00 I think you're doing great work for Crawl 11:30:08 kilobyte: yes, I think so too. My agenda is to instill some of the old mythology into our felids. If you approve, I'd start thinking about how this could be done (nothing for 0.8, of course). 11:30:10 but I also think we need release dates to focus on 11:30:48 "release when it's done" is a good thing... unless there is a pressing reason to meet a deadline (like the Tourney) 11:30:49 And if you're suggesting that not having release dates will give us Debian quality, that's pretty ridiculous too :P 11:30:58 Eronarn, see if I'm missing anything: ATK_TRIED_, ATK_HITS, ATK_MISSES, ATK_KILLED, ATK_DAMAGED (not killed) ? 11:30:59 Cryp71c: technically correct (i.e. broader) is "misses", I think. 11:31:00 Sorry, that will mean we release once in two years 11:31:01 but ... it's never done? 11:31:33 Cryp71c: attack attempted; attack dodged; attack blocked by shield; attack hits; attack damages; attack kills 11:31:35 And unless we have a focussed release strategy, we won't get quality at all 11:31:47 Is "Debian quality" appraisal or pejorative? :) 11:31:55 dpeg: the myth is quite widespread, I think. I did not look for its origin, though. 11:32:02 Quality is something that happens when someone takes the big picture view and focusses on it, not by coincidence 11:32:07 missed is implied if attack attempted + nothing else 11:32:08 Eronarn, ah, blocked. 11:32:11 dpeg: depends on whom you ask :) 11:32:18 i.e. a bunch of talented programmers working chaotically will never give you quality :) 11:32:18 because then they didn't dodge or block but you didn't hit or damage either 11:32:31 I believe that Crawl benefitted a lot from having two releases a year. 11:32:33 thus, 'missed' doesn't need to be its own enum 11:32:38 it could be, but it's just extraneous 11:32:43 dpeg: mostly about "no hang if you try to get network to work" and other such details 11:32:51 Especially with the minor one before the tournament. Things seem to be more stable than they used to be. 11:33:00 Eronarn, I think ATK_MISSED would be more insightful, then, than ATK_TRIED 11:33:20 Cryp71c: tried kicks in for stuff like passive freeze 11:33:26 dpeg: as a developer you can get lazy if you have a public server and you forget (or don't care) about the offline users 11:33:26 where even attempting to attack = you get hit in return 11:33:37 dpeg: Well, 0.7 wasn't a great release, but then we hurried it out before release without adequate bake time on the branch 11:33:56 Eronarn, so you would keep tried and then at the end of tried, check for miss and call all missed-effects within the tried enum? 11:34:01 greensnark: which of our releases were great? 11:34:07 dpeg: None so far? :P 11:34:19 * dpeg answers: all releases which remove a species. Bonus points for new gods. 11:34:20 But the point is that if we waited for it to be great, we wouldn't have any releases :P 11:34:25 yes! 11:34:30 Cryp71c: probably what i'd do is not check tried until the attack roll is actually made 11:34:36 greensnark: baking on a branch is fine... although you need to choose the branching moment well, too 11:34:38 I mean, we'd still be on 0.5 waiting for heavy armour to be solid again 11:34:48 If we think that 0.8 is lacking, we can always up the ante by kicking out Ha. 11:35:00 kilobyte: "Choose branch moment well" == recipe for doing nothing forever 11:35:10 Cryp71c: note btw that the timing of stuff matters 11:35:11 if you think your releases are lacking, maybe whip out more bugfix releases? 11:35:15 kilobyte: yesterday you said to jpeg that late weekend might do? 11:35:16 Without a concrete date, we won't choose branches well 11:35:18 if you kill something when it's attempting to attack, you just prevented their attack 11:35:46 kilobyte: So let's get back to a date. Will end of March be good for branching 0.8 with unicde? 11:35:49 dpeg: I hope so, at least to a point where bugfixes are not too intrusive 11:35:49 this can be good, but it can be bad 11:35:52 If not, I say we push unicode to 0.9 and move on 11:36:02 bhaak: overabundance of species, not bugs. (Matters will become complicated once we have insect species.) 11:36:16 we may need to copy the attacker/defender before anything really happens, so that they're guaranteed to have a live copy for looking at stats 11:36:18 Eronarn, right, well since the action enum cannot be determined until after (at least) the to-hit and damage rolls are made (so as to determine if we hit, if its blocked, and/or if it kills the target) 11:36:36 I figured this effect code would be somewhere near the end of the combat logic. 11:36:43 dpeg: yay, insects! with an adequate number of arms for rings? 11:36:44 greensnark: it depends how much support we want; the minimum can be done pretty fast 11:36:46 bhaak: stability of releases seems to good, thanks to CDO 11:37:04 * Cryp71c wants a dev release in the US still :P 11:37:15 kilobyte: Internal string handling being all unicode is already done, right? 11:37:16 greensnark: the vital bug which I insist to have it in 0.8 is already fixed 11:37:21 yeah 11:37:43 and all operating system calls 11:38:04 Cryp71c: well, here's the thing - sometimes, you DO want to kill an attacker before they finish their attack 11:38:18 Eronarn, such as in the case of passive freeze, for example? 11:38:20 consider a Tloc spell, Paranoid Jitters, that makes you teleport away if you would be damaged 11:38:22 Ok, so is everyone ok with branching March 31 and a tentative date of April 24 for release? 11:38:41 Eronarn, do we have such a spell? I've not ever heard of that. 11:38:43 you need to teleport after damage has been decided, but before it's been applied 11:38:47 no 11:38:47 greensnark: I am. 11:38:47 this is a hypothetical 11:38:51 right 11:38:52 k 11:39:02 kilobyte: Do we have an aye? You're doing most of the work here :P 11:39:06 dpeg agrees! 11:39:08 greensnark: I hope I could get it in shape by 20th if some heavish cherry-picking would be acceptable 11:39:09 now, in this case, that would require adding another enum hook 11:39:22 but, we could fake it by doing it after-hit, before-damage (so it will trigger even on 0-damage attacks) 11:39:27 kilobyte: So March 31 should be fine for creating the branch, right? 11:39:37 dpeg: you shouldn't remove too many species, we still want to get up to 27 species eventually ;) 11:39:49 by this point, though, stuff like 'did the attack hit your shield' already has been processed 11:39:55 elliptic: that's a conundrum I am still pondering :) 11:39:57 that means we actually now will need exit points in the attack code 11:40:12 if we block CDO updates, I could even merge today 11:40:17 it already has some but we might need to add more, if we're doing stuff in between existing steps that might alter the actors involved 11:40:28 dpeg: lava orcs!! 11:40:39 kilobyte: CDO needs DGL update before we can merge? 11:40:45 radical ogres 11:40:48 and octopodes, and myrmidons, and treefolk 11:40:50 they make so many words 11:40:57 greensnark: yeah, and that "update" is not even coded yet 11:41:28 Eronarn, so there'll be various hooks to the the processing do_hits() function that we're discussing, in various locations of the combat code since we need to ensure actions are taken at the appropriate time. 11:41:31 Ok, so I'll propose that 0.8 is branched off on March 31 at the latest 11:41:37 * greensnark will email c-r-d 11:41:44 poor Nat 11:41:44 Cryp71c: right 11:41:57 why Nat? 11:42:06 there is still the question of whether one function or multiple - *my* coding style would be one function, since it's actually doing the same thing, just at different stages 11:42:12 greensnark's c-r-d mail go through Nat 11:42:31 Only the first time 11:42:33 you can ask one of the devs if they'd prefer it some other way 11:42:40 Eronarn, well we're talking about this do_hits function (I would like 1 function as well) with various paths for how the combat is going to end. 11:42:49 After he okays it once emails go direct until I unsubscribe next :P 11:42:50 well, not 'the combat', specifically 11:42:59 it'd have paths based on the combat stage reached so far 11:43:14 consider it like a loop: thing in this attack stage happens -> next attack stage 11:43:18 greensnark: c-r-d has little traffic these days 11:43:33 needs to become: thing in this attack stage happens -> responses to whatever happened -> check whether attack is still valid -> next attack stage if so, otherwise, abort 11:43:45 Each of the "endings" we discussed before were possible exit paths of the combat (missed, killed, damage, blocked, etc.) 11:43:52 the 'check' part happens in some points in the code now, but not always 11:44:13 Cryp71c: 'hit' isn't an exit point for the combat, you can still then go on to damage something 11:44:18 some of the enums are exits, others aren't 11:44:35 also, consider something like an ogre with a big weapon - maybe we make it damage you even if you block it with a shield 11:44:45 then, 'attack blocked' isn't even an exit point any more 11:45:03 better to keep it flexible by not assuming that an attack will end with any of the given enums/stages 11:45:41 figuring out whether the attack exits should be the domain of the fight.cc main code path, not the do_hits code path 11:46:58 But you said earlier that the do_hits would not (at least not initially) be responsible for actually applying damage or any core combat mechanics, right? Just to serve as a place for us to hook up effects via external functions (like spines, passive freeze, etc.) 11:47:37 it may need to modify the core mechanics in some places 11:47:49 dpeg: I unsubscribed back when I got a sudden flood of commit emails :P 11:48:05 Eronarn, I don't suppose you have an example in mind? 11:48:14 I'll just use better filters in future :P 11:48:35 for example... let's say there was a patch to make ignite poison have a duration 11:48:46 for the duration, any attacks with poison are converted to instead do fire damage 11:48:46 ok, so its a DoT 11:48:54 ohh ok, I gotcha. 11:48:58 thus, you'd need to modify the attack's property there 11:49:30 this code path is not solely useful for 'damage shield' effects... but also forcefields; 'interceptions', parries, phase shift, etc. 11:49:57 Oh, Cryp71c, Eronarn: major changes to combat code to go into a new branch, please :) 11:50:12 greensnark: i don't have commit access :P 11:50:17 greensnark, no! I shall commit it all to trunk with bad commit messages so you can't readily identify each commit without inspecting its diff. 11:50:21 Eronarn: Cryp71c does :) 11:50:28 didn't know that! 11:50:31 Cryp71c: add octopodes to trunk 11:50:37 Eronarn, why don't you have commit access? 11:50:42 lol, octopodes 11:50:43 i'm not a dev 11:50:55 You seem to have a fair amount of dev-related knowledge. 11:51:09 Eronarn is the new Zin 11:51:14 I mean, Eronarn did the new Zin 11:51:31 Eronarn would use it to make vampire/mummy templates, add sillier monsters than due would dream of, and to add lava orcs. 11:51:44 Yes, new Zin is good. 11:51:51 dpeg: i don't support vampire/mummy templates now, if i ever did before (can't recall) 11:51:53 Lava orcs have become frightfully popular 11:51:56 lava orcs! 11:51:56 Playing a few Zinners spares you reading the OT. 11:51:58 I blame TGWi for lava orcs 11:52:03 greensnark: we actually have a plan for lava orcs now 11:52:03 That sounds awesome, <3 lava orcs. 11:52:07 Who started the lava orc thing 11:52:07 -!- Twinge_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:52:11 Who cares!? 11:52:15 Lava orcs for president! 11:52:23 :)_ 11:52:24 they have temperature, which goes up if you're in a tense situation, and goes down if not (also goes up if you're in lava, hit by fire spells, etc.) 11:52:27 We must probe this matter. I like to know the names of the miscreants involved 11:52:29 lava orcs are an essential ingredient in the production of lava lamps 11:52:36 oh, and goes up if you berserk 11:52:38 Just as I'd like to know who added Elbereth to Hack/NetHack 11:52:45 Cryp71c: I put his octopodes on a branch... although there are places which are out of whack 11:52:47 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 11:53:05 low temperature = cold and stony; high temperature = passive fire damage, lava blood, physical stat boost... 11:53:06 kilobyte, yeah I saw that branch 11:53:21 (and temperature lags behind tension by a few turns, rather than being immediate) 11:53:22 especially their equipment restrictions being mostly "let's pretend we're a 2-handed human with 8 ring fingers" 11:53:53 kilobyte: that equipment restriction is entirely intentional - i do not want octopodes being multi-wielders 11:53:58 Eronarn, there's kind of an implementation like that already, but for the player (for the demonic guardian mutation) for "Tension" 11:54:13 their tentacles aren't as dextrous as human hands, so they need 2 per "hand", and they need 4 tentacles to walk 11:54:25 so they can wield 8 magical rings? awesome. 11:54:37 Cryp71c: yes, i know, i was one of the proponents of adding a tension system way back ago and am very happy that it got in 11:55:03 Eronarn: and what with 2-handed weapons? I don't see why they would require four tentacles for that 11:55:11 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 11:55:50 What are the apt of octopodes? Fairly good fighters? casters? battlemages? 11:55:55 Do they slurp when they move? 11:55:59 kilobyte: they require four tentacles because it's better gameplay. same reason even 72 strength humans require two hands on a greatsword, still 11:55:59 I must know. 11:56:03 they make good killusionists 11:56:17 ??git 11:56:18 git[1/2]: git clone git://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl.git 11:56:31 Cryp71c: rather poor apts though they need work badly; regeneration; pseudopods 3 (kind of like horns) 11:56:47 Yeah I remember pseudopods mutation 11:56:57 though I don't think it had much use when I remember it. 11:57:00 It was just there. 11:57:02 they are meant to be ok at enchantments, baddd at conjurations, not great fighters but awful dodgers 11:57:24 not sure how aquatic they will end up being 11:58:03 the idea is that they would generally be a weak race with bad equipment slots, except they get 6 rings to make up for it 11:58:15 which lets you do interesting things you might not be able to otherwise 11:58:31 like 4 rings of slaying, or 2x wizardry + 2x int rings 11:59:03 they will probably be scarily underpowered midgame, before you get 8 rings actually worth wearing, because they have awful AC and EV and not so good HP either 12:00:35 the [g]nomes idea seems to have died off 12:00:54 for lava orcs: what would be their relation to Beogh? 12:01:11 Hang on, is this lava orc thing serious? 12:01:24 * greensnark reaches for sanity. 12:01:53 * dpeg gives greensnark 0.5 milligram of sanity, all that's currently available. 12:01:55 Beogh worships them. 12:02:05 dpeg, I need gitorious access pl0x 12:02:16 Why me? What do I do? 12:02:16 Were Deep Dwarves a direct Gnome replacement? 12:02:31 lol idk. you're marked as an admin on gitorious and you're here right now. 12:02:33 ekiM: yes 12:03:12 kilobyte: lava orcs are still beoghites 12:03:28 greensnark: neither DDs nor kittehs were serious initially 12:03:34 beogh protects hill orcs from allied lava orcs (both players and monsters) 12:03:45 if they get hot enough to burn their surroundings 12:03:45 kilobyte: I think dpeg was pretty serious about DD from the beginning! 12:03:47 some of old boring races could be axed in turn 12:03:53 Although I must confess I didn't like DD :P 12:03:57 wtf are lava orcs? 12:04:00 why not have megaorcs instead 12:04:05 that'd be trendy 12:04:10 :P 12:04:15 Zaba: they are orcs, made out of lava. 12:04:20 what's not to love? 12:04:28 greensnark: Jay Fenlason or Andries Brouwer is too blame for Elbereth. We don't know for sure, but it as least as old as the first hack version we got sources for 12:04:30 in fact, of the three AC ones: MD, Mi, HO, we could leave just one 12:04:51 there's room for at least 2 there, maybe 3 12:04:53 Eronarn, it makes no sense at all? :P 12:04:55 We had this yesterday. HO has to stay, for higher principles. 12:05:08 Zaba: since when did orcs make sense 12:05:17 dpeg: definitely, since Beogh is a cool god 12:05:29 which fares badly for dorfs and cows 12:05:37 Wait, we have cows? 12:05:40 * bhaak wonders if he has to answer that question a third time to the same person 12:05:43 and MD were supposedly becoming a small race... 12:06:00 bhaak: Jay Fenlason/Andries Brouwer is a little vague as to exactly who :P 12:06:14 bhaak: iirc, I requested you to go visit Andries Brouwer and ask him :P 12:06:18 bhaak: could you elobarate who's responsible for this Elbereth madness in the Nethack games? 12:06:20 st_: there was a design, I even coded it (branch small_dwarves), the results are not so good 12:06:25 bhaak: You're on the same damn continent! 12:06:37 greensnark: it is Eurasia! 12:06:44 bhaak: Also, he has a nice white beard, you could go take a picture of yourself next to the beard 12:06:55 kilobyte: it'd be neat to have them be a small race that still has two full hands 12:07:03 except smallness has few effects besides weapon wielding, right now 12:07:09 dpeg: remind me, whom are in a war with right now? 12:07:10 * bhaak 's irony detector is overloading 12:07:22 s/are/are we/ 12:08:12 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:08:15 Eronarn: results were mostly having plenty of armour useless to you 12:10:13 kilobyte, dpeg is refusing to be cooperative. Can you add me to the member list of the Gitorious project? burnhamrobertp@gmail.com 12:10:21 (as well as give commit access) 12:11:14 kilobyte: useless? the penalties for small size aren't that steep are they? 12:11:36 Cryp71c: I don't know how :( 12:11:45 dpeg, :) its ok, you do'nt have to lie to me 12:11:46 thoughts on (Give +4 dragon armour) (Show slimy rune of Zot) vs (give +4 dragon armour) (show slimy rune of Zot) ? 12:11:50 :D 12:11:58 (on ctrl-o screen) 12:12:18 elliptic: I am for lower case 12:12:24 I am for upper case 12:12:28 Cryp71c: "No user was found with that username" 12:12:33 kilobyte, Cryptic 12:12:34 * dpeg slaps Cryp71c with an ß 12:12:37 sorry, figured it'd work with emails 12:12:55 dpeg, s/an/a ? 12:12:56 lower case, definitely 12:13:06 What's that beta supposed to stand for? 12:13:14 Cryp71c: should work 12:13:17 thanks 12:13:22 ß isn't beta 12:13:28 That is an s-z, the only letter in German which exists just as lower case. 12:13:59 upsy, my xchat renders it awefully similar to a proper beta symbol. 12:14:09 it is similar 12:14:09 it looks like one but it's not 12:14:12 lower case it is 12:14:15 ß β 12:14:23 elliptic: you rock! 12:15:16 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9F#Lowercase_beta 12:15:31 dpeg: /oh/, I knew that Germans pronounced ß like English "esset", but wasn't sure why 12:15:35 reading it as "s z" makes a lot of sense 12:15:56 (that is, the letter itself; when used in a word it's pronounced like English ss) 12:16:44 -!- blackpenguin has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 12:17:40 dpeg: is it called eszett more than scharfes s? 12:18:47 bhaak: Seriously, you should drop Andries Brouwer an email, tell him you're awed by his contributions to humanity and that you'd like to know if Elbereth is one of those contributions to humanity. 12:18:54 upsy: nobody says scharfes s anymore :) 12:19:09 google disagrees, but I disagree with google 12:20:25 greensnark: if I'd do that I wouldn't you those words for sure :-) 12:20:47 s/you/use 12:20:48 -!- blackpenguin has joined ##crawl-dev 12:22:20 You can ask him in the same mail whether he is proud on the Brouwer fixed point theorem, and whether Elbereth isn't worth to humanity. 12:23:01 Holy cow, dpeg knows Andries Brouwer 12:23:07 dpeg: You could ask him! 12:23:50 greensnark: it's not his theorem :) 12:23:58 perhaps his grandpa's :P 12:24:18 !coffee elliptic 12:24:18 * Henzell hands elliptic a pot of cappuccino, brewed by the Serpent of Hell. 12:25:52 Modified trove descriptions (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3605) by elliptic 12:26:00 so "ß"="ᛋᛋ", right? 12:26:20 :-O 12:27:05 (unlikely you have the font, the Runic block can be found for example in ttf-junicode or ttf-unifont; the former is much much better but the latter does many other ranges too) 12:27:39 Napkin: you'd need an italic font to get ᛋᛋ look just right :p 12:28:12 :D 12:30:30 03hyperelliptical * r7bbce220ad77 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/clua/lm_trove.lua: Modified trove descriptions. 12:31:14 -!- ais523 has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:31:37 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:32:49 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 12:33:49 I was the one who lobbied for Adolf renaming, glad I did that. 12:33:52 ??git 12:33:53 git[1/2]: git clone git://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl.git 12:33:57 ??git[2] 12:33:57 git[2/2]: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:help:git 12:34:10 the Sig rune and its inappropriateness aside, I'm in love with the Runic block for Crawl 12:34:20 for what do you use it? 12:34:25 The runes? :) 12:34:35 being used to # for walls, having similar but different glyphs for stone/metal/crystal walls is damn useful 12:35:11 Yeah, spectating your games is a pain :P 12:35:14 kilobyte: once the unicode branch is in, we should provide a template file so that people can see the possibilities 12:35:17 ᛥ, ᛞ, ᛝ, ... 12:35:21 Quite apart from the 1920x1080 term size :P 12:35:33 Although those I do have 12:36:07 dpeg: sadly, they are not good for a preset since no distribution installs fonts which have that range 12:36:37 Do newer Windowses have better unicode font support than XP? 12:36:56 Or do you need to download third party fonts 12:37:10 grrrrr gitorious won't accept my key. 12:37:29 And how good is say, Win 7 terminal support for unicode? 12:37:41 greensnark: not sure about Windows console... XP has it terminally bad 12:37:51 Cryp71c: You have to tell an admin to add you as a dev, did you do that? 12:38:00 I think dpeg and due are the gitorious admins 12:38:28 there's something amiss with PuTTY... it does claim to support font substitution on Win2k and above, yet it doesn't work for me below 7 12:38:40 greensnark: me too 12:38:53 greensnark, yeah Kilo did it. 12:38:57 Ah, cool 12:39:07 Then you're already in? 12:39:21 And Git has accepted my key, but when I try and commit I get "Agent admitted failure to sign using the key" and a hangup. 12:39:30 without font substitution, merely having a font installed is not enough... you have to select a font with all characters you're interested in by hand 12:41:34 Yeah, probably best to keep the characters used simple in the default config 12:41:57 Muwhaaha, got it working...I'm dumb :) 12:42:18 03Cryp71c * r2cae6124baf0 10/crawl-ref/source/fight.cc: Remove unnecessary casts 12:43:26 greensnark: it seems that Windows console at least on XP requires you to select an 8-bit codepage and throws away all characters not representable by it 12:43:49 Ick 12:44:02 No wonder so many roguelikes use a fake terminal 12:44:03 this means, the default has to be confined to one of them, preferably CP437 = CHARSET_IBM 12:44:20 I think that'd be easier on Windows than screwing with the Windows console 12:44:28 not sure if they fixed it in 7, but it appears the terminal is as bad as it was 12:44:38 greensnark: yeah, I thought about that too 12:44:48 unlike Unix, it doesn't get us anything 12:45:06 no ssh or anything on Windows, so only local games would be affected 12:46:05 * dpeg calmly suggests to drop Windows support. If they support us, we don't need to support them! Bomb Redmond!! 12:48:19 Yeah, we could retain curses support for the Unixen and do a graphical terminal for Windows 12:48:27 Actually, does pdcurses already do a graphical terminal? 12:48:48 yeah, but it's beyond abysmal 12:48:54 I already investigated it 12:50:20 Too bad, that would make things simpler 12:50:32 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 12:50:42 Aha, pdcurses supports only 16-bit code points 12:50:58 I thought UCS-2 was dead and buried :P 12:51:00 Removing amulet of faith doesn't immediately change the visible piety meter. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3606) by elliptic 12:51:10 Does Windows use UTF-16 or UCS-2 internally these days? 12:51:15 greensnark: sadly no... all of Windows uses it 12:51:24 Still UCS-2? Ugh 12:51:25 a mixture of both 12:51:46 console is strictly UCS-2, other places vary 12:52:16 ok, ok... only the API is UCS-2 on console, the internal behaviour relies on 8 bit stuff still 12:52:41 How can you view all the different branches on Gitorious? The best I can do is to see like the first 4/5 and then it says "And 38 more" 12:52:42 I don't know about CJK or Hindi stuff... it seems strange to me, since there's more than 256 letters 12:52:57 I think some of the roguelike libs did some fake consoles, but I don't know about their unicode support 12:53:05 Like libtcod 12:53:21 Dwarf Fortress does a Unicode-based fake terminal, IIRC 12:54:30 DF is closed source, though, I was thinking of something we could rip off for Crawl :) 12:54:40 DF is closed source, right? 12:54:52 it is 12:55:16 CP437 12:55:39 it's pretty easy to implement it from scratch though 12:55:45 or reuse something like PuTTY 12:57:30 bye 12:57:33 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:59:59 Are we keeping branches forever, or can I delete my old unarmed_effects branch? 13:02:06 is there any real reason to delete branches? 13:02:49 They clutter the branch listing. 13:02:50 -!- Nexos has joined ##crawl-dev 13:02:58 for merged branches, there's no reason to keep them 13:03:06 And for merged branches that aren't receiving changes, there's no reason to keep them. 13:03:17 k, wanted to make sure before I removed it. 13:06:05 Bazaars should always have more than one shop (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3607) by Nexos 13:08:49 Eronarn, "unified_combat_effects" sound like a nice, meaningful branch name? 13:08:55 bazaar_long_row has one guaranteed shop, according to a comment in the .des file 13:10:25 Cryp71c: You can view the branches locally, why use the web interface 13:10:32 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: reboot] 13:10:33 git branch -r to see your remote branches 13:12:08 greensnark, yeah thats what I ended up doing. I already deleted my old branch :) I just like a nice, pretty web interface sometimes. 13:12:36 Make your console pretty :P 13:12:59 My theory is that most tiles players just don't know how to configure their terminal emulators 13:13:32 At least that's why they keep complaining about "ugly text" 13:13:42 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 13:13:44 If your text is ugly your terminal config is screwed up! 13:13:52 I think terminal better than tiles 13:14:26 looks better* 13:17:17 -!- Nexos has left ##crawl-dev 13:30:39 yay dates! 13:31:06 I wish gitorious had the github type graph for stuff, makes it very easy to keep track of current branches. 13:32:26 03j-p-e-g * r03f6625bebe7 10/crawl-ref/source/potion.cc: Remove an outdated comment. 13:34:32 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:35:19 six-onth cycle would be good 13:35:32 re: releases 13:37:00 Or we could do a major/minor cycle 13:37:28 But yeah, I'd like 6 months best 13:38:18 03zaba * r2fb700503119 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/ (float.des large.des): Move statue_cache to large.des from float.des, as it has ORIENT: north. 13:38:29 03zaba * r9ee393a9a80a 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/ (float.des mini_features.des): Move lemuel_firewalk_3 to float.des from mini_features.des, as it has ORIENT: float. 13:38:30 03zaba * r534f285a91dd 10/crawl-ref/source/ (dungeon.cc dungeon.h): Don't return bool from plan_4, as nothing uses its return value. 13:39:43 -!- jpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 13:56:25 03j-p-e-g * r4ae976c00b87 10/crawl-ref/CREDITS.txt: Add Eronarn to the credits, remove duplicate name. 14:09:15 removing windows support is a joke, right? 14:09:27 greensnark: lava orcs aren't my fault :( 14:09:36 I don't remember whose fault they are 14:10:41 Yeah, dpeg keeps talking about removing Windows support to yank a few chains 14:11:14 well, I can assure you that lava orcs are dead serious 14:11:55 I'm pretty sure about the "dead" bit 14:12:37 extremely serious 14:12:43 extremely dead 14:12:47 deadly extreme 14:12:49 wait what 14:13:00 imo they would actually be really cool though 14:13:07 You mean they'd be really hot 14:13:11 and it's a funnier joke than felids 14:13:13 no 14:13:14 no, I don't 14:13:15 :( 14:13:16 Admit it, you just want lava orcs in bikinis 14:13:44 Well, someone revealed that the primary impetus for LO is the abbreviations 14:13:54 oh yeah 14:14:01 that was how they originated 14:14:09 reiterating the proposal is awesome though 14:14:19 I don't want to mention any names, so I won't point out that it was MarvinPA who revealed this gruesome secret 14:14:19 what's the proposal 14:14:55 lava orcs 14:15:23 Lava orcs will be implemented right after cang, I'm sure 14:15:54 I saw the cang thread on the tavern, it was awesome 14:16:09 danr reminded me of the auditors from Thief of Time 14:16:18 "it makes no sense!" 14:20:59 monqy: lava orcs have a heat variable that increases with tension and some other stuff; cold lava orcs are rock, hot ones are lava 14:21:19 fancy 14:22:19 !wtf cang 14:22:20 Unemployed Unperson 14:22:30 ??cang 14:22:30 cang[1/2]: cang 14:22:33 imo !wtf cang should return "cang" 14:23:21 is there a description of those lava orcs somewhere? 14:23:51 If it's a serious proposal, it should be written up on the wiki 14:24:03 I haven't really paid attention to anything past the name :P 14:24:19 And the fact that it's been a ##crawl in-joke for a year 14:24:21 there is a lot of rumour about lava orcs but nothing known 14:24:32 eronarn could tell you more 14:24:47 There was some discussion on it here with Ero earlier 14:24:54 yeah 14:25:02 But I was discussing geopolitics with dpeg and I've been too lazy to look at scrollback 14:25:16 the geopolitics of lava orcs 14:25:51 well, without a proposal I can't tell you why it sucks 14:26:01 you couldn't anyway 14:26:03 b/c it rocks 14:26:19 not a positive attitude! maybe lava orcs will be the best race so far 14:26:27 s/maybe// 14:26:30 "%s is too close now for your liking." message happens with no monsters in sight. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3609) by elliptic 14:26:30 Squares just out of sight get mapped sometimes. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3608) by elliptic 14:26:34 TGWi: except for when tension is high, right? 14:26:35 This is exactly why I think lava orcs are another cang-like thing :P 14:26:38 s/ so far// 14:26:44 kilobyte: hehehehehe 14:26:55 !wtf cang 14:26:56 cang 14:26:58 There we go 14:27:01 :D 14:27:56 !wtf lock 14:27:57 Unperson Chaos Knight 14:27:59 :( 14:28:44 04:18 < Eronarn> lava orc pirate unique, on a ship of toenails, which bursts through the lava and spews out its damned crew (of lava orcs) 14:29:35 Yeah, that sounds pretty serious 14:29:51 Ship of toenails :) 14:30:08 Damn, this idea is growing on me 14:30:23 I'd better go away before Zaba shoots me 14:30:45 zaba gets to make the layout for the lava orcish mines 14:30:55 Those toenails would be lava orc toenails to survive the lava, I guess 14:31:19 mixing Naglfari with a LeChuck wannabe... 14:31:53 The only Monkey Island ref we have so far is Murray, right 14:35:12 -!- jpeg has quit [] 14:45:30 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 14:55:15 !lg * killer=Murray 14:55:15 No games for * (killer=Murray). 14:55:19 :( 14:55:24 @?? murray 14:55:24 Murray (04z) | Speed: 10 | HD: 14 | Health: 180 | AC/EV: 30/10 | Damage: 20, 20 | Flags: 07undead, evil, see invisible, !sil | Res: 13magic(immune), 05hellfire, 02cold++, 10elec++, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 2600 | Sp: summon undead, torment symbol. 14:55:57 2600 sounds so low 14:56:16 should put him in lair or something 14:56:34 @??dire elephant 14:56:34 dire elephant (02Y) | Speed: 10 | HD: 15 | Health: 89-132 | AC/EV: 13/2 | Damage: 40, 15 | Res: 06magic(100), 12drown | XP: 1612. 14:56:39 Cryp71c: that sounds like a fine branch name 14:56:49 Eronarn, excellent (cause I already created it :P) 14:56:57 NOOOOOO! Dire elephants are now drown-resistant. 14:57:09 That was the main way I cleared the dire elephant castle lair ending! 14:57:13 damn. 14:57:19 greensnark: I'd like a 6 month release cycle, with two tournaments. One official one, one smaller untournament. 14:57:34 Well, even the official tourney could be shorter 14:57:47 The one month thing is exhausting for everyone involved, including organisers :) 14:58:28 imo two 2-3 week tourneys 14:59:48 humm, what about: 15:00:31 releases 6 mo apart; 1 mo after a release is 'tournament season'; two weeks of slowly rolled out info about tournament format/quirks/whatever, for people to adjust to the new version; then a two week long tournament 15:00:39 that'd be a decent general guideline, i think 15:01:20 Yep, two week tourney sounds most reasonable 15:01:50 I hope to have time this August, but it's iffy 15:02:50 I'd be happy to help with the unofficial tourney, but my free time ends in April 15:03:16 Was there any consensus on the format of the unofficial tourney? I know ##crawl was discussing it 15:03:56 there were a few things we agreed on 15:04:21 Any wiki page or similar for the unofficial tourney? 15:04:43 * Eronarn is tentatively willing to volunteer himself for a tournament website 15:04:45 there is an old page on the wiki with tourney stuff but that doesn't have the stuff we discussed on ##crawl recently I think 15:04:58 one that tracks prizes across multiple tourneys 15:05:03 there was a tavern forum for tourney stuff but then danr removed it because nobody posted 15:05:21 a couple of details that people seemed to like: 15:05:32 If you use some kind of registration for clans you can run the tourney without needing shell on cao/cdo, which will be helpful 15:05:48 The current clan-in-rc thing is a bit of a pain that way 15:05:59 1) there are a certain fixed number of points for each race/class/combo which are distributed equally among everyone who wins one 15:06:20 Ooh, that's an interestic mechanic 15:06:23 so winning an ogre is worth more points than winning a spriggan if there are far more spriggan wins than ogre wins (as usual) 15:06:32 But you'd get more points for first win of the combo, right? 15:06:32 this encourages more variety of characters 15:06:32 wow, i really like that 15:06:50 could also have points for first win of the race/class/combo, yes 15:07:06 and points for the high score for the race/class/combo 15:07:09 Yeah, that's a cool idea 15:07:12 I'm less excited about those things though 15:07:36 2) streaks shouldn't be worth much aside from some points for the longest three streaks 15:07:47 could distribute combo points as a weighted average based on score 15:07:50 could have multiple point brackets - Okawaru (powergamer speedrun stuff) vs. Xom (wacky challenges) 15:07:57 so someone with twice the score gets twice the points 15:08:11 tgwi: eh, I think there's a better way to encourage some allruning 15:08:24 with a system like that, it would be a poor idea to just do a 3-runer 15:08:30 you'd like always want more 15:08:32 guess so 15:08:42 -!- aze5 has joined ##crawl-dev 15:09:03 aze5: wouldn't it be easier to unignore me 15:09:07 anyway, there should be some bonus for each streak win (20 or 30 points or something), but not something large enough to determine your tourney strategy 15:09:31 here's an idea for something to supplement the xom's choice: troves 15:09:33 3) when you get a rune for the Nth time, it is worth 30/N points 15:09:36 So would winning two SpEn get you more points than winning one SpEn? 15:09:41 something you can do within some game, changing each day, that gives a one-time bonus 15:09:47 xom's choice? 15:09:50 greensnark: no, at least not for the race/class/combo points 15:10:15 greensnark: I envisioned having a pool of points divided equally among all the people who won at least one 15:10:15 not 'win with a role' but stuff like 'find the abyssal rune as your first rune' 15:10:29 (with some turn limit to do so, of course) 15:10:30 Sounds good 15:10:47 greensnark: there would still be stuff like a 20 point award for each win, of course 15:10:53 so no win would be completely worthless 15:11:07 elliptic: going to be any team element to the .8 tourney? 15:11:21 I like it, the encouragement to win obscure combos will be great 15:11:43 it may be interesting as you will have to organise what combos you'll do in your team 15:11:44 for (3), the idea is that your first allruner would be worth quite a few points, and then the next one is worth half that many (still decent), and then a third, and so on 15:11:58 so it wouldn't be so much a matter of "allrune exactly once" 15:12:13 Yes, that sounds good too 15:12:17 one possible idea would be basing points on achievements, rather than on individual games 15:12:20 I think the 30/N thing was also proposed last year 15:12:28 yeah, rwbarton proposed it then I think 15:12:33 A little too late last year, though 15:12:37 it is on the wiki page 15:12:43 so you have your 'win an allruner' achievement, and get points for that, but the next level of that comes in at 5 all-runers during the tournament, or whatever 15:12:56 for teams, I think we might as well have them, since everyone likes them :) 15:13:00 :) 15:13:14 adding some new mechanic to teams would be nice 15:13:19 not sure exactly what the format should be, could just be the same as in past tourneys (mainly adding up individual points) 15:13:24 or could add something new, yes 15:13:27 hmm... here's a crazy idea 15:13:36 can we affect ghost generation based on a character's team? 15:13:42 well if you add up individual points it would be more interesting because 2 in-team spen wins would be worth the same as 1 15:13:54 dpeg suggested treating teams as an aggregate individual for scoring 15:14:11 greensnark: that sounds reasonable enough, yeah 15:14:12 I'm not sure how that'd interact with the combo scoring being shared among all winners 15:14:27 let teams declare a vendetta on each other, and if so, their ghosts are more common for each other :D 15:14:27 But it should work pretty ok, I think 15:14:42 Eronarn: That'd be a bit of work :P 15:14:44 people would *love* that, though i don't know how feasible it is with how ghosts are generated 15:14:46 combo/race/class scoring would be shared evenly among all teams with at least one such win, I guess 15:14:52 The fewer changes needed to Crawl, the better 15:15:08 Eronarn: I think we're trying to keep it pretty vanilla .8 15:15:10 greensnark: i agree, but i don't think changes to crawl should be totally written off, either 15:15:15 customizable ghost taunts 15:15:17 even if we can't do it for this tourney, it'd be nice at some point in the future 15:15:29 if we are doing anything like that it should be in the august one imo 15:15:31 upsy: ooh, that's a good idea 15:15:40 Eronarn: True, and we do make changes for the official tourney, but the unofficial tourney should be kept simple in that department 15:15:55 greensnark: 'wait, if it's an unofficial tourney, why are we talking about it in ##crawl-dev?' 15:16:17 It's unofficial because the organisers are not the official tourney organisers :) 15:16:25 I'm just interested in the details :P 15:16:27 because of the devs interest in the tournament culture of ##crawl 15:16:28 like the unofficial forum that is hosted on cdo moderated by galehar 15:16:35 s/cdo/cdo and/ 15:16:47 What, the tavern is unofficial? 15:17:02 I hope so, it's a horrible place 15:17:08 even worse than the wiki 15:17:29 This is a sign that you've been reading too many threads :P 15:17:35 yes 15:17:36 ??tavern 15:17:36 forum[1/1]: https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/ 15:17:38 so I stopped :P 15:17:40 You need to put on your protective filter goggles 15:17:49 A little practice reading SA helps :) 15:18:00 greensnark: anyway, for the 0.8 tourney I'd go with the new stuff I listed, some minor tweaking to the old stuff (not sure yet what to do about banners), and teams treated as individuals 15:18:35 teams treated as individuals? Oh, so we just add all the games from every person in the team together 15:18:39 and only 16 days long or whatever 15:18:49 banners is a nice idea but I dislike most of the banners :( 15:18:51 casmith789: we treat them as one person 15:19:11 so team streaks are extremely hard :P 15:19:14 monqy: yeah, I think we'd want some new banners if we were using banners 15:19:22 do badges imo 15:19:24 I say ignore banners 15:19:27 nemelex' banner is really great 15:19:30 casmith789: probably no team streaks 15:19:42 oh, right, nemelex's choice is the other thing I'm not sure about 15:19:49 Yeah, streaks make no sense for teams as a whole 15:19:56 lairless was pretty cool too 15:20:00 it is great fun but it is also somewhat counter to the idea of encouraging lots of different combos 15:20:31 elliptic: you could make the pool for a nemelex choice 20x as much or something 15:20:38 elliptic: did you read the trove idea i had? 15:20:41 (if you wanted to include it) 15:20:47 casmith's idea is cool 15:21:00 so the first 20 people would be getting more than usual 15:21:06 eronarn: no, what was it? 15:21:29 inb4 "remove troves" 15:21:41 elliptic: something that changes every day, that can be accomplished within an existing game most of the time, that gives you points when you do it (once per trove) 15:22:05 interesting, I'm not a big fan of stuff that changes every day though 15:22:20 since often you find that you don't have more time to play in a given day suddenly 15:22:30 well the idea would be that they're smaller things than 'win', but big enough that you won't be able to do all of them anyways 15:23:12 people will more time will always have an advantage, and it's not good to exacerbate it too much, but it's not like we can get rid of it either 15:23:39 and daily means there'll be a bunch of them, which is good in a 2 week tourney 15:24:41 stuff with strict cutoff times means lots of confusion with people needing to figure out what time zone the cutoff time is and so on 15:24:56 what about introducing a new one every day, but with multiple days to achieve it? 15:25:00 still, I like the idea 15:25:10 in case someone can only play at weekends, or whatever 15:25:10 elliptic: we could have a webpage for that, and link it into henzell too 15:25:21 Eronarn: Maybe add a list of daily activities to the wiki? 15:25:30 /dev/null being a month long is really useful for me, as I don't really have time to ascend in less than that because of RL 15:25:34 I'd be interested in a little variation for the Aug tourney as well 15:25:38 greensnark: i'd rather set up a totally separate page for it than use the wiki, but yeah 15:25:39 eronarn: do you think it is possible to come up with 16ish different "troves" that would be reasonable? 15:25:51 elliptic: maybe... it depends what stuff we can actually check 15:25:53 and I imagine people who are as good at Crawl as I am at NetHack (i.e. not amazingly good, but can win every now and then) might have similar situations 15:25:54 yeah 15:25:55 Eronarn: I mean just so we don't lose the ideas 15:26:05 I'm not talking about keeping tourney scoring on the wiki :) 15:26:08 runes and guaranteed uniques are easy options 15:26:08 greensnark: but then there'd be spoilers!!1 15:26:18 Oh that way 15:26:30 Well, presumably you're going to make the code available somewhere :P 15:26:57 elliptic: also god joining/leaving/mollification, branch entrances... 15:27:29 hmm, how taxing is requesting a character's dump? because we can get a lot of stuff from that, even if they're still playing 15:27:40 but it'd need to be able to do that in a semi-automated way 15:27:53 The game doesn't save a dump unless told to 15:27:55 eronarn: there's also the issue that you might find (for a rune say) that you've already gotten it in your current game, so you can't satisfy the daily activity without starting a new game\ 15:28:04 greensnark: right, you can do that with !log though can't you 15:28:14 Eronarn: You mean end-of-game dump? yes 15:28:23 oh, it doesn't work for games in progress? hmm 15:28:25 End of game dump is trivially located using the logfile date 15:28:26 but if you've already got the achievement, it gives you nothing to do that game 15:28:38 ais523: yeah 15:28:56 elliptic: i think that's okay though, not all the daily activities have to be doable for all games... they should just be *most* game doable 15:29:02 no 'get an immature draconian to lair 8' 15:29:49 Eronarn, to give me some perspective, were you thinking about this unified do_hits function handling all combat effects, or ones that apply to melee-attacks only? 15:29:52 still, most possible goals will be much easier for some character builds than others 15:30:20 Maybe we should move the tourney discussion back to ##crawl 15:30:22 Cryp71c: it'd have to be melee only at first... it's such a complex area of code that you cannot start big 15:30:49 it would be good to, later, generalize enough that you can fit in ranged combat, such as with bools (is_real_projectile (vs. spell-projectiles)) 15:30:56 but that would be a LOT of work 15:30:58 looking at fight.cc is so disheartening, its such an unapparent mess, but things aren't so poorly organized that a clear solution is prevalent. 15:31:08 melee attacks are *relatively* straightforward; ranged attacks aren't 15:32:28 the best way would be to make the code as capable of handling a variety of situations as possible; such as, by default, it occurs in the context of a melee_attk and can use everything from that BUT could instead be fed in actors manually, etc., whatever 15:32:38 but again... start small :) 15:34:25 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:42:26 It seems quite odd to me that when attacking a sleeping orc as a follower of Beogh that in that exact same turn, that orc has a chance of being convertted? Shouldn't beogh only have a chance of converting orcs you see, not orcs you attack while they sleep? 15:44:45 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 15:49:55 Eronarn, should I go ahead and give do_hits to melee_attack or leave it as a regular function? 15:51:13 Cryp71c: if it's in melee_attack, it will get the variables available in that 15:51:22 this will be very handy when it comes time to pass stuff into the functions 15:51:55 into the individual effects function(s) that apply certain effects? 15:51:58 right 15:52:22 otherwise you'd have to, say, pass in attacker/defender to do_hits... but then what if one attack needs to know damage? then you need to add a new signature that passes that in 15:52:30 could get very messy 15:52:52 also, don't use that name for it :P it's not descriptive enough 15:53:20 something like "attack_phase_responses" might work 15:53:24 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:53:50 Eronarn, so you would call the enum attack_phrase ? 15:53:51 or "respond_to_attack_phase" 15:54:05 phase, drawing from MTG terminology here (a turn is broken into a series of phases) 15:54:06 attack_phases* 15:54:14 gotcha, makes sense. 15:54:37 in that case, phases are regions of time. in our case, our phases are more like breakpoints 15:54:44 because we haven'te xplicitly designed our game around phases 15:54:57 so there's no 'current phase you're in' - just, at a certain point, you are moving into the next phase and calling all relevant triggers 15:55:19 A more explicit phasing of attack might be a goal of redesigning fight.cc 15:55:21 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 15:55:31 s/attack/attacks 15:55:32 evening, keskitalo 15:55:32 yes... and this would be a good framework for that, but for now, we should just bolt it on 15:56:03 with these being phases, ATK_ prefix for the enums still apply, do they not? They make sense to me. 15:56:10 But my programming sense is a bit quirky at times. 15:56:32 hm... ATK might collide with something 15:56:53 nope, looks like not, nevermind 15:57:18 it could be confused with AT_ 15:57:26 especially since there's AT_HIT 15:57:36 this would be a very subtle, icky bug 15:57:52 since it'd be a valid int enum 15:58:11 hrm, atm I have ATK_ATTEMPTED, ATK_DODGED, ATK_BLOCKED, ATK_DAMAGED, ATK_KILLED 15:58:28 probably good to have hit/damage separately 15:58:31 for stuff like acidic blood 15:58:43 then the issue would be AT_HIT vs ATK_HIT 15:59:04 maybe ATK_HITTED :D 15:59:08 PHASE_HIT probably wouldn't make much sense 15:59:10 (ATK_LANDED, i guess) 15:59:57 k, so add ATK_LANDED in and that's what I've got atm. 16:00:31 that sounds fine for starters 16:01:40 the function would look something like: void melee_attack::process_attack_responses (sequence) {switch (sequence) { case ATK_ATTEMPTED: ... 16:01:54 yeah that's what I've got 16:02:14 there might be issues later on, btw, with hurt() 16:02:20 since that's where damaged/killed need to go 16:02:28 except by then you're not in melee_attack any more 16:02:52 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:03:05 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 16:03:09 so you might need to pass in a 'this' or what have you, to hurt, as an optional parameter 16:03:20 since hurt is used outside of the context of melee attacks 16:05:38 indeed. 16:05:50 do both melee attacks and ranged attacks inherit from a base class? 16:06:32 I've got to go. late to leave work, msg me! 16:06:33 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:13:11 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 16:16:31 -!- Kurper has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:20:24 03galehar * r4c9c8ddd9749 10/crawl-ref/source/newgame.cc: Background selection menu: add some spacing between the columns. 16:20:33 03galehar * r4df2b47ea018 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-gear.cc: Allow Ijyb to get high-tier wands in normal game. 16:20:34 03galehar * rb99868b5eb10 10/crawl-ref/source/newgame.cc: Background selection menu: rename battlemage as warrior-mage. 16:29:37 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 16:34:53 -!- Neovanglist has joined ##crawl-dev 16:34:58 -!- Neovangl1st has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:41:58 oh? wasn't the high-tier wand just removed recently from ijyb and several others? 16:42:07 for Sprint, yes 16:42:23 like grinder 16:42:55 Hi Napkin! 16:43:11 Hey David :) 16:43:19 How's it going? 16:43:51 Quite good 16:44:05 great :) 16:44:09 Not enough time for all Crawl tasks, as usual. 16:44:23 hehe, nobody has ;) 16:44:27 i guess 16:44:53 Napkin: read the commit message. I removed HT wands from Ijyb in sprint, but it was useless as he didn't get them anyway. 16:45:13 peace! 16:45:30 I thought he did, because he obliterated me with draining once, but draining wasn't a HT wand before I added it. 16:46:15 yeah, sorry that was harsh :) 16:46:19 Hehe, typical dev reaction: nerfing those who kill them. 16:48:25 only read the commit with grinder.. and later just Ijyb's name 16:48:35 less paralysis \o/ 16:48:40 \o/ 16:49:14 gitweb is nice to search commit messages 16:49:29 can I be credited as TGW? 16:49:46 no, doesn't fit ;-P 16:49:55 dpeg: getting hit with draining by Ijyb in sprint isn't very interesting. Death in 2 turns, nothing you can do. 16:50:26 it's more or less the same for irl ijyb, considering the depth he shows up at 16:50:44 maybe move him a lot deeper and guarantee a wand 16:50:46 or something 16:51:07 but people complain that he never kills anyone. So now, he can bring a surprise. 16:51:10 galehar: I know. 16:51:21 nevah! Ijyb has always been early! 16:51:41 more careful people would phrase that as "he isn't challenging" 16:51:45 "irl"? 16:51:50 kilobyte: irl ijyb 16:51:56 lol 16:51:57 :p 16:52:22 galehar: overall lethality is not really as big an issue as it's made out to be 16:52:37 if people can steamroll (or at least ignore) ijyb 80% of the time then he's still uninteresting 16:53:07 Ijyb is harmless 99% of the time... 16:53:15 conservative estimate 16:53:35 Ijyb's real danger has always been his speech! 16:53:38 but Ijyb has good speech, so we'll keep him 16:53:43 Napkin: +1 :) 16:53:52 Ijyb is cool, deserves a bump 16:54:04 Sigmund is a Crawl's institution 16:54:06 he deserves to be made interesting 16:54:22 Grinder is the uppity newcomer who should get knocked down a peg 16:54:30 change him from a hobgoblin to a boggart ;) 16:54:57 actually... shadow creatures on D:2 wouldn't be out of whack 16:55:15 stronger than spammals 16:55:18 eustachio casts spammals 16:55:22 and doesn't show up on D:2 16:55:31 spammals summons big rats 16:55:34 and eustachio also has imps 16:55:35 get him a pet dragon 16:56:01 nobody will notice that Siegfried was the one with the dragon 16:56:44 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:56:58 Sigurd is Sigmund's kid 16:58:07 bhaak: I would! 16:59:25 dpeg: you don't count :) 17:00:50 kilobyte: the son got more popular than the father and the father got grumpy and is now killing adventurers in crawl? 17:01:46 no no 17:02:06 the father was a legendary in Crawl, and the son applied that to real life 17:02:14 legendary hero 17:04:06 yeah... http://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/blobs/master/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-dngn/statues/dngn_statue_ancient_hero.png 17:05:38 niiice 17:06:48 is it intentional kenku can't butcher using beak+talons like birds do? 17:07:21 seems like an omission to me... 17:07:38 there's been arguments about it before 17:08:34 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 17:08:57 I think it's a case of nobody having gotten around to it 17:10:02 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=287 17:11:22 not a single voice against 17:12:30 the idea of eating corpses directly could be nice though, if we get to it some day 17:15:45 3609 issues already 17:15:49 not bad, not bad! 17:17:54 mantis 3535 is still happening if anyone missed it 17:24:31 3535 is happenin to me too 17:24:41 weird bug 17:26:22 anyone willing to test a few versions? 17:26:56 maybe it's related to the changed jpeg did about travelling by clicking/vi-keys? 17:27:35 http://crawl.develz.org/trunk/archive.html <- versions since december 2010 17:27:50 would probably help a lot circling the problem 17:30:14 03kilobyte * r0f5629f400cb 10/crawl-ref/source/ (delay.cc food.cc): Let kenku use beak+talons for butchering, like birds they are. 17:30:25 03N78291 * r663a8d5b4184 10/crawl-ref/source/ (art-data.txt player-act.cc): Obsidian axe bug fixes 17:42:50 yeah, this "ACB is too close now for your liking." without seeing it is definitely weird 17:43:08 never saw it happen so often before 17:48:31 this bug is my doing, I've been messing with that part of the code. 17:48:46 it's new, right? 17:48:50 yes 17:49:04 ok, i was just wondering whether i never realized it before 17:50:23 It's either commit 3719b75f or dd7bf0bfd. 17:53:15 -!- Kurper has joined ##crawl-dev 17:53:54 galehar: I guess it's related that "Foo comes in view" can come one turn too early? 17:55:42 it's related to those message, but I don't know the conditions which bring the bug. 17:55:48 I'll look into it tomorrow 17:55:57 * galehar go to bed 17:55:58 sure 17:56:01 night! 17:56:01 night guys 17:58:18 -!- galehar has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:06:41 -!- joosa has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:06:47 -!- joosa has joined ##crawl-dev 18:20:23 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:24:20 03j-p-e-g * r6889d690ca15 10/crawl-ref/source/ (player.cc skills2.cc): Fix #3344: Don't crash if you.transfer_to_skill somehow is SK_NONE. 18:37:20 -!- syllogism has quit [] 18:38:51 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 18:52:17 03dpeg * r56a90c0cbeb4 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/portals/bazaar.des: Guarantee two shops in bazaar (#3607) 18:52:20 03dpeg * r6c0c7e931b0a 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/portals/trove.des: Give troves more loot items again. 18:52:32 03dpeg * rde39ce0a7c64 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/entry/entry_large.des: Make sure that an entry vault does not create a bubble (#3601) 19:45:42 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:54:05 zipcode suggests lev shouldn't be extendable without cfly 19:54:10 this is a p.cool idea 19:56:24 an attempt to make cFly useful, yes 19:56:39 I thought most people have resigned to remove cFly altogether 20:02:14 03kilobyte * r43ae3613e289 10/crawl-ref/source/ (6 files in 3 dirs): Denzi's tiles for due's abyssal monsters. 20:02:18 there are interesting proposals for lev around 20:02:25 03kilobyte * rdbae2a0550d0 10/crawl-ref/source/ (abl-show.cc food.h main.cc player-act.cc): Make all sources of berserk consistent wrt hunger, remove insta-kills. 20:02:26 03kilobyte * r94b27851637c 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/mini_monsters.des: Disable the hallowed halls vault. 20:03:49 autocanceling at starving is cool 20:12:20 kilobyte: should collect them and put on a page 20:12:56 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:13:29 kilobyte: we'll nerf berserkers again with the upcoming food changes, don't worry 20:14:59 dpeg: it might be good to nerf berserk right now somewhat 20:15:01 what's the plan for that? 20:15:30 berserkers are the best class currently 20:20:08 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:28:11 kilobyte: I am not sure that is true. 20:29:21 You could berserk at hungry before (Trog)? 20:29:26 nope 20:30:12 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 20:30:29 ah, I see 20:31:28 I see two obvious nerfs: (a) make berserk cost more nutrition; (b) increase piety costs for Trog and/or reduce piety gain 20:31:58 I think it'd be interesting if Trog only gave piety for books, corpses and kills under rage 20:32:02 but that is for later 20:32:18 that encourages people berserking when they don't need to at all 20:32:22 as long as it's safe 20:32:24 which is not fun 20:32:42 TGWi: it costs way too much food to do that 20:32:50 if you have chunks you're going to do it 20:32:52 but yes, it's a problem 20:32:54 Berserker is not the best class definitely. It is one of the best to start but certainly lacks lategame. 20:32:54 yes 20:33:03 casmith789: I'd agree with that. 20:41:21 hmm, had a thought with the weapon moves - it would perhaps work well to do moved-away-from-target, didn't move, moved-towards-target 20:41:25 that is nice and simple 20:41:39 and can be displayed with a status light 20:41:52 Retreat, Ready, Charge or something 20:45:19 Eronarn: I would like it if stabbing was just another move. Does that fit? 20:47:32 I think there was an idea of giving different weapons different stabby effects 20:47:37 dpeg: my thought is that each weapon should get 2-3 moves, determined by the combination of handedness/damage type/weapon skill. most weapons should have at least one move triggered in different ways from each other. all weapon categories should have at least one weapon triggered with each way you can trigger a move 20:47:44 like UC would grapple or something 20:47:55 the rationale for this: if you have 3 options for how you can trigger a move, each player is likely to hate 1 but unlikely to hate 3 20:48:41 stabbing could be a 'Charge' (move towards an enemy) move with shortblades 20:48:53 prolly not 20:49:02 move towards enemy = just an attack? 20:49:12 move toward enemy then attack 20:49:14 like, actually move 20:49:15 dpeg: actually cover ground bringing you closer to an enemy 20:49:24 requiring this for stabbing would be cumbersome though 20:49:38 I am fine that different weapons stab differently, but we agree tjat short blades could keep the current stabbing effect? 20:49:50 it's fine if stabbing is special imo 20:49:52 TGWi: not require... but possibly a boost to stabbing, or you might get a distractstab just from being so fast with your blade, or something 20:50:14 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 20:50:20 it'd be a good dagger-y weapon effect to do something stab-related 20:51:08 it's not really necessary to condense all the effects into three modes of activation 20:51:48 TGWi: i think ones requiring movement are better than ones that just kick in passively all the time, though there might be room for some of those too 20:52:05 I see the potential, but I also have some doubts. Is there an outline of what is planned? 20:52:18 no, just talking around about it 20:52:47 Eronarn: well, stuff like cleave is reasonable as passive 20:53:03 plenty unique 20:53:29 Eronarn: you should make that wiki page 20:53:30 hmm, maybe 20:53:47 ugh, i don't feel like making a wiki page :( it is 10 already 20:53:54 it's 9:53 you lightweight 20:54:02 it will be 10 after i get pie 20:54:17 get me some too 20:54:23 you can send it via mail 20:54:39 i don't think it would keep! 20:54:59 also: tbh i think i will do lava orc code before i do weapon effect code, and i think i will wrap up my existing code projects before then 20:55:20 i have like 4 branches that are just hanging out, that's too many 20:56:18 <3 20:56:28 lava orcs 21:02:28 I have to admit I don't see the point of lava orcs so far. 21:04:05 heat management adds an interesting minigame, form-changing requires you to adapt etc 21:05:00 TGWi: I have never seen an actual plan 21:05:28 heat management reminds me of vampire's blood level 21:05:37 there is a plan *in my heart* 21:07:17 TGWi: let me be blunt: is the species meant serious, or as a joke? 21:07:32 serious like felids 21:07:37 (serious) 21:08:13 If you want to get it into the game, make sure the design can be discussed in advance. 21:08:46 I don't really have much to do with it other than cheering on eronarn 21:09:06 dpeg: it's not like vampire blood level because it's entirely tactical: heat is based on current tension, so it responds about the same speed as demonic guardian 21:09:21 aha 21:09:25 is it gameable 21:09:42 monqy: only as much as tension is 21:10:00 which is to say, kind of, but often not worth the effort, and if any major bugs in the formula pop up we can squash them 21:10:40 You know that there are voices to remove felids outright.... a loud one by Eronarn himself. You'll do everyone a favour if you write it up. 21:11:24 I don't mean to say that they're like felids 21:11:51 just that they're an actual proposal that sort of stemmed from a joke 21:13:39 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 21:16:05 if by 'sort of' you mean 'completely' 21:16:24 go away I was being euphemistic 21:16:39 Euphemist as a role doesn't make any new words does it 21:17:02 eu? no 21:17:08 it might in german? 21:18:00 you got my drift... one of you (or anyone else who got the idea) should dash it down, half a wiki page will do for the start 21:21:07 i'll get something down this month, for sure 21:21:35 cool 21:51:25 -!- golgepapaz has joined ##crawl-dev 21:52:16 is there a guide anywhere to making serial vaults? 21:52:42 I cant find anything in the docs folder, maybe I'm looking in the wrong spot 21:54:38 it's pretty simple, what do you need help with? 21:55:07 don't bother writing the whole thing, just paste it from another serial vault and change what you must 21:55:14 oh nothing in particular, actually. I'm not having any trouble just copying what the existing vaults do 21:56:01 I'm just curious if there's anything else, and wouldn't mind having some specific details 21:57:07 evilmike: "serial" is not yet in the documentation 21:57:36 I'm also wondering a bit how they behave in the abyss (it's harder to test vaults there) 21:59:45 hm, not really sure about that one 22:00:09 but "unused" Abyss vaults (i.e. the player didn't meet them) will be reused, in case that helps 22:00:13 also, sleep 22:00:15 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:07:23 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 22:08:10 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Client Quit] 22:28:53 Make troves handle manuals correctly. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3610) by elliptic 22:38:46 -!- golgepapaz has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.15/20110303024726]] 22:57:53 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:33:49 -!- upsy has quit [Quit: Leaving]