00:21:14 valrus (L5 DDHe) ASSERT(y >= 1 && y <= sz.y) in 'libutil.cc' at line 800 failed. (D:5) 00:39:22 moin 01:43:23 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:03:10 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 02:14:54 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:16:00 -!- NyaaKitty has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:24:27 cannot move in shallow water without "there's a strange disturbance nearby!" message (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3507) by ZebTM 02:37:35 -!- TGWi has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:18:21 moin moin 03:41:29 -!- Kurper has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:29:26 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:31:20 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:40:44 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 04:42:38 -!- Sequell has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:05:49 -!- Moriasc has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:05:53 -!- Moriasc_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:06:01 -!- Moriasc_ is now known as Moriasc 05:45:37 The tile of spell and a monster (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3508) by Denzi 05:45:52 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:46:50 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 05:46:50 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 06:07:23 oooh 06:08:23 hmmm? 06:08:37 denzi tiles! 06:08:42 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/file_download.php?file_id=1720&type=bug 06:22:11 are those things some vault specific monsters 06:23:51 no, abyssal horrors 06:23:55 yet to be coded but planned 06:24:03 they might not make 0.8 06:24:12 !tell TGWi Thanks for reporting the horrific typo! 06:24:13 Keskitalo: OK, I'll let TGWi know. 06:24:21 Afternoons. :) 06:25:42 no wiki entry? 06:26:34 syllogism: there's oine about somewher 06:26:52 I only saw the tile request one 06:27:47 that basically sums up the monsters 06:27:50 the rest of it is in my head 06:27:51 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 07:04:51 03Keskitalo * r52c59fdc7a4d 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/temple.des: Attribute three temple maps correctly (#3501) 07:06:43 kilobyte: proportional xp <3 07:07:32 kilobyte: How is healing handled? Is each lost hp chunk accounted separately? 07:28:28 -!- evilmike has quit [] 07:32:15 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:36:16 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 07:44:35 -!- GreyKnight has joined ##crawl-dev 07:56:44 -!- NyaaKitty has joined ##crawl-dev 08:11:29 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 08:15:41 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 08:20:36 -!- valrus has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:22:58 _Error, exp for monster with no damage: giant spore 09:31:31 -!- NyaaKitty has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:33:24 Keskitalo: if a monster has 100 maxhp but healed 50 in the meantime, it works as if it had 150 maxhp. Being fully healed clears the count, though. 09:41:53 seems fair 09:45:02 there is one downside identified so far: if a monster got hit by a trap, it might be beneficial to let it heal up rather than taking opportunity and killing it 09:45:24 what's the subject here? 09:46:12 it works the other way too: if you get a yak to near death, it starts running and walks into a trap, you would get shafted out of your exp in the old system 09:46:32 GreyKnight: about proportional xp for damage 09:47:57 ah, I getcha 09:49:03 monqy proposed completely ignoring trap damage in the calculations, but that would lead to ridiculous behaviour like plinking monsters about to hit a trap, taking 1 damage (counted) from you and 99 (uncounted) from the trap, giving you full xp 10:06:39 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 10:06:56 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:06:59 oh wow 10:07:06 those horror tiles are great 10:08:26 kilobyte: does that actually matter in that case, especially if you lured it into the trap in the first place? 10:10:22 if you take the time to keep luring a monster over a trap you deserve XP for that 10:28:16 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:48:05 another possible suggestion for adding more Zin flavour; give him a "storm" aspect? I think this aspect isn't used by any deity currently, please correct me if I'm wrong 10:57:10 'storm'? 10:58:02 storm-related abilities 10:58:15 lightning bolt is obvious but maybe too much so 10:58:15 a) that's completely random b) fedhas already does weather 10:59:02 not really, and okay then (respectively) 11:01:19 zin already has quite fleshed out flavor that has nothing to do with the weather 11:14:39 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 11:18:04 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 11:38:33 I think like ais523 & monqy - also, just because a monster stumbled into a trap, you still got the courage to give the final blow. ignore trap damage, i'd say 11:40:15 imo a trap should give XP in these cases: 1) you knew about the trap and made the monster move over it 2) you damaged the monster before it died to the trap 11:40:35 the only case a trap shouldn't give full XP is if a monster died to a trap without you damaging it and without you being in LOS of it 11:40:59 alternately, here's a crazy proposal: if something isn't in LOS, you can't get XP for it 11:41:17 this would have pretty dramatic effects... but *good* ones, i feel 11:41:38 (this could itself be subject to partial XP loss: only damage done while it's in LOS counts for XP reward) 11:41:40 I always thought "you feel more experienced" is hilarious, although I like it 11:42:08 ais523: i think either method works, they both have advantages and drawbacks, but crawl has been progressively moving towards becoming a more balanced game 11:42:36 what's your definition of balance? it seems to be different for different people 11:42:55 I've seen a discussion where someone called NetHack more balanced than Crawl, then listed a list of things that most people would consider made it more /un/balanced than Crawl 11:43:00 so they were clearly using an unusual definition 11:43:49 ais523: okay, let's start from this premise: 11:44:40 everybody seems to have their own concept of balance, in my experience. The reason why it is so hard to keep everyone happy :-) 11:44:59 choices in a game like crawl go background/pre-game choices => character development strategy and gameplay progression strategy (both on the same tier, and affecting each other) => tactics 11:45:38 propagation of a) choices b) viability can go upwards and downwards 11:45:40 do tactics ever affect gameplay progression strategy? that happens quite a lot in NetHack 11:46:06 balance is when choice propagation downwards is only weakly tied to viability propagation downwards 11:46:37 Give us a such as 11:46:53 I'm not sure I understand you correctly there, e.g. a Trogite isn't going to be using casting-based tactics for very long 11:47:04 but I think I misinterpreted what you said 11:47:05 you can still choose a background that is horrible/non-viable (e.g., merfolk fire elementalist), and that choice limits you greatly 11:47:27 and there are a few backgrounds that are so good that they greatly empower you on the tactical level 11:47:40 but, the key word is *weakly* tied 11:48:11 oh, are you saying that in a truly balanced game, the best choice for your tactics is approximately equally good no matter what background you're using? 11:48:47 all roles require limiting your choices, and propagating that downwards, but few of them are wildly divergent in viability propagated downward (though obviously, any character can end up very weak or strong regardless of starting point, due to factors such as equipment) 11:49:08 ais523: more or less... not simply looking at 'best', since assuming optimal play is bad 11:49:15 well, typical play then 11:49:46 no need to choose - better to look at the entire range (bad through good play, early through late game, new through experienced player) 11:49:54 I think I disagree with that definition; NetHack seems to fulfil that criterion better than Crawl /because/ it's unbalanced, in that past the early game, the vast majority of enemies are so easy to kill that it doesn't matter what you're doing 11:50:06 in terms of strategy 11:50:14 I'd call that a mark of an unbalanced rather than balanced game, though 11:50:21 ais523: this conceptualization is only relevant for player vs. player balance 11:50:37 oh, I see 11:50:44 that's a pretty bizarre metric to use in a roguelike, isn't it? 11:50:56 well, in a roguelike it becomes character vs. character balance 11:51:08 or even archetype vs. archetype, since characters have really wild luck 11:51:21 the abstract MuBE, and not a specific one, etc. 11:51:32 it stops people complaining that "nobody plays X because they're rubbish" or "of course you won, you were playing a Y" 11:51:45 so this kind of balance is useful 11:51:47 though, the specifics do bleed over into the generic - for example, you can count on receiving something like slaying in most games 11:52:04 the thing that worries me is, D&D version 4 tried to go down that route, and it lead to all characters becoming more or less identical 11:52:14 although they did it quite badly 11:52:23 (and the ironic thing is, they didn't even manage to balance the game well as a result) 11:52:49 right, you can end up not having attachment to your character's choices if everyone plays the same 11:53:07 e.g., if everyone has a single target attack spell, it doesn't feel interesting to learn a single target attack spell 11:53:20 yep, that's D&D 4 syndrome pretty much 11:53:37 yeah :-( 11:53:50 ais523: the magic the gathering designers have a bunch of good articles about balance 11:53:53 but looking it from another point of view: if learning a single target attack spell and, say, a multiple target attack spell are equally viable, then what strategic reason is there to pick one over the other? 11:54:00 Eronarn: I know, I've read many of them 11:54:24 it's worth pointing out that the vast majority of Magic cards are almost completely unviable in constructed play 11:54:24 they don't always call it balance directly in those words, but for them, it is about encouraging an ecosystem where there are multiple viable archetypes that play differently and thus a thriving metagame 11:54:25 obviously it is easier to balance if every option is practically the same, but then it becomes boring 11:54:42 ais523: limited basically ruins magic 11:55:01 magic is in the interested position of being several totally different games run using the same card pool 11:55:02 because it's used as a bullshit justification for two thirds of the cards being intentionally bad 11:55:09 er, interesting 11:55:34 TGWi: it goes the other way too though: there are a lot of cards that are junk in limited and designed for constructed play 11:55:35 hm, they have different games? I never knew that 11:55:45 most of the joy in Magic, at least when I used to play it (I stopped just after Lorwyn came out, because it wasn't any fun to play), for me was trying to come up with interesting things 11:55:47 Eronarn: yeah but constructed is better 11:55:58 in large formats like legacy though there's enough good stuff that lots of things are viable 11:56:04 and having the pool of apparently "bad" cards available made it easier to try things out, and do unusual things 11:56:20 GreyKnight: constructed: make a deck in advance and bring it to the event. limited: you get an assortment of cards (either drafted (like in sports) or random) and have to build a deck on the spot 11:56:40 and that's not to mention all the multiplayer formats 11:57:00 not to mention there's something like 5 different versions of constructed, based on how old cards have to be before they become illegal 11:57:03 ais523: I mean stuff that is awful, not stuff that is unplayable 11:57:08 chimney imp etc etc 11:57:10 only 5? 11:57:33 Eronarn: well, that's wrt official tournaments, but most of them rotate year on year to get people to keep buying cards 11:57:37 block standard, standard, extended, legacy, classic, standard singleton, 100 card singleton, pauper 11:57:43 block standard extended legacy and vintage are supported 11:57:47 and vintage 11:57:54 i think that's all of them 11:57:57 I was counting block, standard, extended, legacy, vintage 11:58:14 if you're including pauper and stuff there's an infinite number of formats you can include 11:58:14 do any of the others have official, non-online, tournaments? 11:58:34 and I'm sad you didn't say EDH 11:58:35 ais523: i count online as official, because it has an entry fee to and prize support from WOTC 11:58:38 and affects your ranking 11:58:41 confusing :-) 11:59:10 Eronarn: except that the tournaments in it are autogenerated by computer, and there's a huge number of them, they hardly take effort to set up 11:59:29 TGWi: it's been officially renamed Commander, mostly because it's nothing to do with elder dragons any more 11:59:47 it was always Commander on MTGO :D 11:59:49 it hasn't been officially renamed because it's not dci's format 11:59:57 they called it commander because "highlander" is a reference to a movie 12:00:19 nearly as confusing as this software package I'm trying to build (I suspect you have to be on the right drugs to make sense of the instructions) 12:00:20 ais523: i don't see that as having anything to do with whether it's official 12:00:42 the tournaments are autogenerated, but they only generate tournament queues for formats that are viable to find enough players 12:00:45 well, it's second-tier in a sense, because they don't run those formats when it takes them any real effort to do so 12:00:52 and they occasionally change which kind of ones are available 12:01:28 (oh right, i forgot kaleidoscope or whatever that one's called, they've done tournaments of that before) 12:01:41 i agree that they're second-tier though 12:01:48 even on mtgo they're far less popular formats 12:02:57 (also, aw crap, prices went up on stuff i wanted to buy and went down on stuff i want to sell since last night) 12:04:20 i moved those prices 12:06:31 hey TGWi can you think of any interesting things for sif to do 12:07:20 change channeling to a more unique mp recovery thing 12:07:47 more mp at the cost of glow, or something 12:07:54 maybe autochanneling over a few turns 12:08:02 why even keep channeling considering how boring it is 12:08:55 because magic users need mp and useful magic gods should help? 12:09:06 what would you suggest 12:09:27 well, i feel i have a pretty good framework for the 'learning' half of sif: 12:09:42 -sif trains spellcasting passively if you don't have it 12:10:11 do you mean like diverting xp into spellcasting? 12:10:12 -sif starts gifting as soon as you have any spellcasting, and rapidly fills up your available slots with spells 12:10:29 gifting spells directly, i mean, not books 12:10:43 -sif gifts you books later, at higher piety 12:11:19 -amnesia becomes very important for a sif-ite because you cannot reject the direct-into-mind sif gifts. sif is about 'maximum utilization' - your brain is a muscle and she will exercise it for you if you're too lazy 12:12:02 i think reskilling would fit well for sif, too, since her piety gain is already directly skill-related 12:12:33 if we're going to have a god give reskilling it makes far more sense for sif 12:12:37 a mage type with no way to regain mana is quite boring and limited imo 12:13:20 however, a sif with those abilities would be quite similar to what we have now, albeit a lot more fun to play before you start getting book gifts (especially for non-caster roles) 12:14:05 so there'd need to be something else - my problem with channeling is that it feels un-sif-y 12:14:06 felirx: have you not played Pokémon Mystery Dungeon? /everything/ is consumable in that game 12:14:29 in the bonus dungeons like Zero Island South, you have exactly one nonconsumable form of damage, and using it halves your experience for the fight, not to mention it's very slow 12:14:51 and ideally, whatever this something else is, it should synergize with a) wanting to learn new spells b) wanting to learn new spell skills 12:14:54 and MP (PP) works on the basis that you get only a certain number of uses, then you need to use consumables to recharge 12:16:04 one example: i did a vehumet proposal a while ago with a "unbind spell" ability 12:16:38 you could cast a spell so powerfully that it escaped your memory, with some bonus effect, but that slot gone until you re-memorize it 12:17:19 this wouldn't work for sif as such, but the idea would be that you change the normal balance of how spellcasting works in combat 12:17:38 seems like a more interesting amnesia replacement 12:17:41 such as... say, a bonus that depends on using a versatile array of spells in combat and penalizes casting the same psell in succession 12:18:34 well, the way PMD did that was that each spell-equivalent had its own store of MP-equivalent, but the only way of restoring it recharged them all at once 12:19:09 recharged all to full? 12:19:09 which meant that a) you were encouraged to use them in a balanced way, b) forgetting a spell (permanently!) and replacing it with another was a viable thing to do as an alternative to using a rare MP-restore item 12:19:12 GreyKnight: yep 12:19:29 * GreyKnight ponders 12:19:46 PMD is mostly balanced around insanely powerful consumables, which means that the vast majority of the game (which lets you carry items over from one dungeon to another) is brokenly easy, and the bonus dungeons (which don't) are insanely hard 12:19:59 the bonus dungeons are true roguelikes in the sense that you have to start from scratch every time 12:20:05 and can't bring anything in from outside 12:20:12 hmm 12:20:41 you could put it this way: PMD is the only game I've ever seen where people use lifesaving tactically 12:21:14 give us a for example 12:22:07 when you lifesave, it recharges all your counters at once 12:22:15 hp, pp (=mp), nutrition 12:22:18 also removes negative status 12:22:20 ah-ha 12:22:25 interesting 12:22:45 so if you're running low on many of them at the same time, you could decide to die and lifesave rather than burn consumables and possibly die soon afterwards, making the consumable use redundant 12:22:59 oh, it also removes /positive/ status, which has caught me out before now 12:23:30 it's a completely different sort of balance from Crawl, though 12:23:51 the game's balanced around "you will need to burn resources to do /anything/", whereas Crawl has quiet periods where you can rest up 12:23:54 I may consider if these ideas will work in a roguelike I am planning about at the minute 12:24:05 so your commentary is not in vain! 12:24:20 I'm vaguely considering writing a roguelike with a similar balance myself, although probably not for a while as I have so many other things to do 12:24:47 btw, you'll likely be disappointed if you actually buy the game, the first 85% or so is tedious and trivially easy as it's for children 12:24:56 and it's only the bonus dungeons (zero island in particular) that are interesting 12:24:58 haha, yeah, usual level of busyness 12:25:14 I may just experience it vicariously through the opinions of others in that case! 12:25:53 I think rax liked it, but she is a big fan of both Pokémon and roguelikes, so this is only to be expected 12:25:56 the plot's quite good too, though, as is the music 12:26:38 (also, most of the early dungeons are so short there's no need to burn consumables, which doesn't help) 12:26:52 (that is, you can get by on starting PP) 12:27:12 and that regenerates between normal dungeons I'm guessing? 12:27:52 yep 12:28:01 there are even save points between normal dungeons 12:28:06 so they're effectively separate games 12:28:15 from a roguelike sense 12:28:22 also, you keep experience between them, etc 12:28:46 on Zero Island, other than North, instead of using your character you've built up all through the game, you're given a generic level 1 instead 12:28:56 and on South and East, you can't take in items 12:29:10 so they're independent of the rest of the game 12:29:24 and it's that that I consider the real roguelike there 12:32:39 per-power PP particularly might be useful in the model I'm using 12:33:23 yep, it's not an obvious thing to do, although Pokémon's done it for years, presumably in an attempt to prevent battles lasting forever 12:33:34 in competitive play, it basically never runs out, it's relevant in maybe 5% of games 12:33:37 -!- ais523 has left ##crawl-dev 12:33:41 Wait are we talking about Pokemon Mystery Dungeon?? 12:33:43 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:33:46 It's the cutest thing in the history of ever! 12:34:04 Hello, friend! 12:34:07 yep! And its applications to general roguelike design 12:34:11 Error message appears after giant spore explosion (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3509) by hayenne 12:34:14 The balance isn't astounding but oh my god you get to _be a pokemon_ how cool is that <3 12:34:27 also hi 12:34:31 Hi! 12:34:38 rax: have you played Zero Island? The balance is pretty good there, although it's on the "horrifically evil" side of things 12:34:54 ais523: Not really, I finished the main plot but got distracted by another game during the Shaymin arc. 12:34:56 I haven't got beyond level 35 or so of South 12:35:01 Are you de-flu-ed? 12:35:15 Yes, finally! 12:35:44 ais523: I hear Zero Island is where it gets hardcore, which is sort of appealing, but I have to admit I liked the plot more than the game mechanics in general. 12:36:06 I sent you an email about stuff and things a few days ago, but you may have missed it on account of viral contagion 12:36:11 I wish I could just control all of the party members, but that is a problem I have with lots of recent console RPGishes things. 12:36:17 GreyKnight: Probably. Lemme check my inbox.... 12:36:18 rax: "hardcore" is an understatement, I think 12:36:31 and in South you only get the one party member, so you don't have to worry about ally AI at all 12:36:41 Oh that's sort of neat actually. 12:37:05 it's the side I play most often 12:37:32 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 12:37:38 although North's the only one I've completed; it's the one that does let you bring in items from outside, and I eventually completed it by filling my entire inventory with reviver seeds 12:37:40 used half of them, too 12:37:52 and that was with a level 90 team 12:37:57 *lets you bring in anything from outside 12:38:04 the other sides, you're playing generics 12:40:48 Generics how so? 12:41:55 it's flavoured as "this is your party member, but with all their stats reduced to level 1, and their level 1 moveset, and no IQ" 12:42:05 Oh weird. 12:42:10 but it's effectively equivalent to "this is a random level 1 of the same species, go use it" 12:42:26 the only stat that carries over is the name 12:42:41 Ah. That could be fun, I dunno. I will have to try it. 12:42:44 I like my characters though! 12:42:57 you don't lose them, they're completely unchanged by the experience 12:43:10 it's just that you aren't using them 12:43:55 Oh OK. That's not so bad. I can pretend they are the same; the name matters. :P 12:44:16 btw, the "conventional wisdom" is that Mew is the easiest character to use, although I'm not so sure myself 12:44:32 levitation + good TM compatibility + effective immunity to paralysis is quite nice, though 12:44:58 you'll find yourself in trouble very quickly if you don't have at least one important immunity, IMO; pity that no Pokémon is immune to all the nasty stuff 12:47:05 (I've been using Metagross recently for the stat drop immunity + good starting moves) 12:47:21 Oh wow, you have built up way more of a team than I have. 12:47:32 I still have, like, Vulpix, Mudkip, Elekid, and Mawile. :P 12:47:36 I've been trying to get all 493 or however many it is 12:47:51 I've been too busy catching them all on the mainstream games. 12:48:13 although Pokémon like Mew and the Metagross are for zero island purposes only, so they don't have any real battle training as it would serve no purpose anyway 12:48:45 my main party is torterra (melee), empoleon (ranged attacks), chimecho (cleric), ampharos (emergency area attacks) 12:48:49 in that order 12:50:22 That's pretty boss. 12:50:24 ampharos possibly isn't the best choice for that slot, though, IMO 12:50:40 I'm not sure what to replace it with, though, and don't really want to train another Pokémon up to level 100 like the others are 12:51:04 I've also been experimenting with a water-based team for a break, which is currently Palkia/Manaphy/filler, and I keep changing the order 12:51:16 Oh wow. Palkia. :P 12:52:01 Palkia's the boss of the postgame the same way Dialga's the boss of the main game 12:52:12 almost, that is; I don't want to give further spoilers as it might ruin the plot 12:52:22 *nodnods* That's cool, I appreciate the no-spoilers. 12:53:19 and in case you didn't realise yet, you can recruit any boss you defeated by going back to the dungeon they were in and fighting them a second time (that isn't spoilers, as it's unrelated to the plot); although it isn't a 100% chance 12:54:47 I did not know that! That sounds awesome. 12:56:13 I assume you can go forward in time later? 12:57:17 the wrong-time dungeons can't be reached again after you've done them, although their bosses appear elsewhere in the game as regular Pokémon, so they're still recruitable 12:57:46 and their music reappears too, as part of the randomized soundtrack of some of the postgame dungeons 12:59:19 Autoexplore with *Rage prevents you from attacking toadstools even with clarity (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3510) by minmay 13:00:20 -!- Hehfiel has joined ##crawl-dev 13:00:22 I'm off iceskating, bye 13:04:47 -!- GreyKnight has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:38:26 -!- Kurper has joined ##crawl-dev 14:05:34 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 14:25:11 -!- Hehfiel has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:28:21 -!- Moriasc_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:30:23 -!- Moriasc has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:30:23 -!- Moriasc__ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:30:32 -!- Moriasc__ is now known as Moriasc 14:32:45 -!- Hehfiel has joined ##crawl-dev 14:33:35 -!- Moriasc_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:19:53 Is it intentional that I got the "With a roar, the tentacle is hauled back through the portal!" message while out of sight of the tentacle 15:38:01 a very loud roar? 15:39:44 the "is hauled back through the portal" bit is a bit odd though 15:40:09 but there's also some virtue, as it isn't spoilery 15:40:25 like "you here a twanging noise" or whatever out of los bows make 15:40:56 spamming this suggestion until it gets implemented: in-los jellies should make the same noises as out-of-los jellies 15:41:03 "you hear the roar of a tentacle being hauled back through a portal" would be Crawl's usual style 15:41:09 so that people can possibly tell what the messages mean without looking them up 15:41:14 because they are fairly important messages 15:41:18 I know I suggested "you hear a ballistomycete activate", but I think it was rejected as too literal 15:41:30 even though it's no more ridiculous than "you feel more experienced" 15:41:44 second suggestion: boring beetles shouldn't make noises out of los 15:41:48 the noises are pointless 15:42:46 isn't there an entry vault designed just to spam the player with messages? 15:42:52 on that basis? 15:43:08 that's an extremely bad goal 15:43:18 think about what you just said :P 15:43:43 there is a feature designed specifically to flood the player with inexplicable runrest-interrupting messages 15:43:46 which mean nothing at all 15:44:18 indeed, I'm not saying it's a good thing 15:44:22 I'm just providing it as a data point 15:46:33 03kilobyte * r8f3326042247 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-stuff.cc: If a tentacle goes through a hole out of LOS, is it still hentai? 15:48:34 are you trying to win an award for worst commit message? :P 15:49:57 With a moan, the tentacle slides through the portal. 15:51:12 if a tree falls in a forest with the lumberjack stoned out of his mind, does the sound smell green? 15:56:53 it seems like the stash tracker tracked "A portal to somewhere" from when I fled after making a gateway 15:58:33 k 15:58:49 ignore that 16:15:14 -!- GreyKnight has joined ##crawl-dev 16:21:42 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 16:46:30 -!- Adeon is now known as NotAdeon 17:03:57 oh cool - you can memorize spells from books you are standing on? awesome! 17:04:10 hi 17:04:16 moin due :) 17:05:35 Minor Ring of Flames changes. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3511) by elliptic 17:09:23 due! 17:11:30 yes? 17:12:09 kilobyte! 17:12:30 zaba! 17:12:47 dr scott! 17:14:40 exploring Lair is a @*&^@$*&$^@* chore. I ponder either 1. having unexplored spots next to enterable terrain a different feature type (so you can redefine them to technicolor blinking x1F4A9), or 2. giving autoexplore a license to kill. 17:15:27 good point 17:15:27 exploring lair isn't a chore 17:15:29 exploring swamp is 17:15:38 (swamp is a chore) 17:15:44 I've always found Swamp rather more dangerous than Lair 17:15:51 nah.. swamp you know why explore doesn't "finish" 17:16:01 kilobyte: why is there a problem? plants and stuff block isolated squares, sure 17:16:02 in lair you always wonder if there was something left below a plant 17:16:03 although given that that's close to the deepest I've ever been before dying, it might be twisted 17:16:07 that doesn't mean you have to kill them 17:16:19 Napkin: aren't objects below plants visible, at least in tiles? 17:16:22 so, bug: tornado is still conj/air 17:16:23 elliptic: there's a number of vaults that can be behind them 17:16:24 you know what's cool? autoexploring in pan and getting stopped because you found an ufetubus 17:16:28 mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 17:16:35 oh, that reminds me, autoexplore keeps finding items in Sprint 3 that are embedded inside permarock and identified 17:16:38 it's not about isolated squares, elliptic 17:16:40 are they shop items? 17:16:41 kilobyte: that's always obvious because there are big empty spots on maps though 17:16:48 ais523: sounds like shop inventories yeah 17:16:50 ais523: yes 17:16:57 "it's on my todo list" 17:17:01 fair enough 17:17:01 god i feel like nehack 17:17:08 i have a todo list the size of manhatten and no time ;/ 17:17:23 upload it to the wiki, due :D 17:17:32 elliptic: not if they're on the map border 17:17:33 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:18:02 kilobyte: I guess, doesn't seem very likely to me but maybe I'm just missing them all... 17:18:29 it's not likely but it is annoying 17:18:54 i'd say change the message to indicate *why* it can't reach 17:19:04 "plants blocking autoexplore", "exclusions blocking autoexplore", etc. 17:20:31 There's no reason it can't say what, where, nor blink it on the screen. 17:23:42 usually it's not on the screen, though 17:24:12 unless you use a 120x80 term :p 17:24:34 who doesn't use an 120x80 term?? 17:24:51 power gamesr 17:24:53 gamers 17:25:04 ??greatplayers[3] 17:25:05 greatplayers[3/3]: It should be noted that all greatplayers use 80x24 terminals, play console, and play online. 17:25:10 see 17:25:13 hey, that's me 17:26:13 and have modems that force them to such tiny terminals :-P 17:26:23 in the spirit of having an unhelpful aversion to "power gamers," force everyone to use 120x80 17:27:45 okay 17:27:54 there's no reason why you can't hit a key that moves the screen to that area 17:28:03 and then flashes the bit that prevented the autoexplore 17:28:20 WE HAVE THE TECHNOLOGY 17:28:25 \o/ 17:29:07 there's often a crapload of those 17:29:22 and some might be behind oklobs while some are not 17:29:26 so have a hotkey that lets you cycle between them. 17:30:23 03kilobyte * rf5b261bd5965 10/crawl-ref/source/monster.cc: Copy damage counters when a monster object is assigned to. 17:30:33 03kilobyte * rf205c82e20f7 10/crawl-ref/source/ (fight.cc mon-abil.cc mon-cast.cc monster.cc monster.h): Correctly handle (all?) cases when a monster suicides (spores, ...). 17:30:34 03kilobyte * r6dfa234bfd06 10/crawl-ref/source/beam.cc: Count damage due to Agony. 17:31:37 you could have it mark them on X using a not-exclusion color 17:32:06 and then cycle between it there 17:32:30 my point is that we don't need to go "alas alas this is horrible" -- there is a lot of stuff that can be done about it 17:32:49 pearl clutch, fainting couch, et cetera 17:33:01 GreyKnight: <3 17:33:04 sending out coffee! 17:33:19 GreyKnight: I am intrigued as to why these are mentioned. 17:33:34 (Though not as much as I am amused to instantly know them, and then go "hm, odd context".) 17:33:47 just the imagery that came into my head for "alas alas this is horrible" 17:33:49 * due fetches the smelling salts. 17:33:50 due: ugh, that's dumb, if we make crawl better then that's time we're not spending adding new gods 17:33:53 and lava orcs 17:34:05 and fingernail golems 17:34:06 hey shut up lava orcs are awesome 17:34:17 we have fingernail golems 17:34:19 actually we don't 17:34:22 we will get fingernail golems 17:34:35 coming up in next version! 17:37:06 TGWi: i would legit add lava orcs if i had any idea how to make their gimmick work 17:37:16 what gimmick 17:37:18 we don't need another armored, tough, earth-and-fire-magic race 17:37:20 being made of lava? 17:37:30 ??nice form 17:37:30 I don't have a page labeled nice_form in my learndb. 17:37:39 ??lice form 17:37:40 I don't have a page labeled lice_form in my learndb. 17:37:48 cockatrice form 17:37:48 !learn add nice_form You are prioritised over all other forms. 17:37:48 nice form[1/1]: You are prioritised over all other forms. 17:38:20 (it'd actually be pretty cool to have a spell that lets you petrify things with a gaze, btw) 17:38:31 !learn add lice_form Delousing is now instant death; also, ew! 17:38:32 lice form[1/1]: Delousing is now instant death; also, ew! 17:38:37 Eronarn: Gorgon form <3 17:38:53 We could make it basilisk form instead. 17:39:25 * Eronarn wants to add some breath, gaze, cone, and other untapped types of spells 17:39:48 evil eye as a hex :3 17:40:06 "Cone of hallucination"? Or just asthma, perhaps. 17:40:07 irresistible smite-paralysis 17:40:26 due: stupefaction! 17:40:31 narcosis! 17:40:36 * Eronarn has a list of "words we should use in crawl somewhere" 17:40:52 change intox to narcosis 17:41:00 TGWi: no, intoxication is booze 17:41:12 narcosis would be something sleepy 17:41:22 cone of silence? 17:41:24 Necrosis. 17:41:24 Eringya's Narcotic Pollen 17:41:32 alcohol is a narcotic 17:41:33 We need necrosis! 17:41:43 The opposite of regen. 17:41:45 due: we need you to look up necrosis on wikipedia 17:41:46 imo 17:41:54 Why? 17:41:55 due: the opposite of regen is cigotuvi's degeneration 17:42:02 necrotising fasciitis! 17:42:02 I know exactly what necrosis is. 17:42:04 pretty pictures 17:42:06 Oh ew. 17:42:08 (do not image search for the above) 17:42:10 Fucking brown recluses :/ 17:42:18 * due stab stab stab TGWi. 17:42:30 I'm going to make a recluse monster that is not a spider now. 17:42:32 i wonder 17:42:35 It just thangs out where other people don't. 17:42:36 GreyKnight: jesus christ oh god 17:42:36 !coffee due 17:42:39 oh god oh god oh god 17:42:39 * Henzell hands due a cup of café au lait, brewed by Yredelemnul. 17:42:45 maybe now that we track partial HP/XP stuff... 17:42:58 TGWi: hah 17:43:11 See, necrotising fasciitis doesn't bother me. 17:43:20 I gave a warning! 17:43:32 _You can now invoke torment by praying over a corpse. <- could be confusing now that this doesn't use prayer 17:43:41 cigotuvi's degeneration = damage over time spell, but any damage lost to that goes to another counter and doesn't give XP, and the resulting creature has HP based on how much HP was lost to degen instead of your damage 17:43:55 TGWi: have pleasant dreams tonight btw :-D 17:44:02 GreyKnight: thanks man 17:44:03 TGWi: MRSA also does shit like this. 17:44:12 np 17:44:19 (also maybe make the resulting thing neutral, powerful, and no-XP rather than hostile, weak, and crap XP) 17:44:37 that'd be a decent way of making the spell not-completely-crap 17:44:42 hm, what gaze attacks are in crawl so far... let me see 17:44:55 GreyKnight: on the player side, just the eyeball mutations 17:45:00 TGWi: it just fucking eats you. I have an uncle who died from it. 17:45:05 . o O (Can we have a gaze attack that causes elephantitis?) 17:45:12 no 17:45:32 Went into hospital for a routine knee operation, died three weeks later after being eaten alive by a medication-resistant supervirus. 17:45:51 FR: ebola 17:46:12 anyway 17:46:13 03kilobyte * r4335c4b070f1 10/crawl-ref/source/religion.cc: As Kiku's torment is no longer invoked by prayer, update piety messages. 17:46:16 i am now going to have breakfast! :D 17:46:44 (MRSA is not a virus) 17:47:27 I actually meant encephalitis, I fail at remembering quotes apparently :-( 17:48:27 we still need a shrink ray spell 17:48:43 Eronarn: "superbug" -- however they refer to it at the time. 17:49:32 shrink ray is definite 17:49:52 plus, one of the deities must announce while wrathful: "Make my monster GROW!" 18:01:55 uhh I was flying and blundered into a zot trap and it triggered it, then when I stopped flying it triggered again 18:01:58 this is a bug right 18:03:05 yes 18:04:49 non-randart quick blades never get a brand... with one exception, Trog can gift antimagic ones 18:05:22 I blundered into a zot trap and got a twister 18:05:32 then it fucked off somewhere, I fell down, and hit the zot trap again 18:05:34 it was great 18:05:43 TGWi: <3 18:07:08 -!- ortoslon1 has quit [Quit: bye] 18:10:55 Magical traps trigger on losing flight/levitation (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3512) by MrMisterMonkey 18:17:06 -!- NotAdeon is now known as Adeon 18:43:02 -!- GreyKnight has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:44:40 GreyKnight: Oh god, what did I just image search. I can't even tell if that's a tumour or a beret. 18:44:54 it's a tumoret 18:46:05 Using Sublimation of Blood on wielded potions of blood as a vampire is instant. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3513) by elliptic 18:46:07 Ah... such a pretty word, for the adornment of a death curse. 19:02:17 03hyperelliptical * r026d6f251a5a 10/crawl-ref/source/ (godabil.cc spl-clouds.cc): Ring of Flames changes. 19:10:47 -!- Moriasc has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101203075014]] 19:39:11 elliptic: you're a dev? 19:39:17 no 19:39:18 no 19:39:20 he patched it 19:39:33 but you still committed it? :/ 19:39:39 no 19:39:40 casmith789: git patches preserve commit info 19:39:48 ah I see 20:10:47 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:29:04 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 20:32:36 -!- syllogism has quit [] 20:45:52 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 21:11:45 dispersal ammo will break eldritch tentacle connection 21:11:52 tentacle connect failed! What the heck! severed status 0 21:20:12 casmith789: committer != author 21:28:47 i saw that print in the code, monqy, it made me lol 21:29:31 monqy: yes, "bad expectations" about sums it up :0 22:54:54 valrus (L9 DDHe) ASSERT(y >= 1 && y <= sz.y) in 'libutil.cc' at line 800 failed. (D:8) 23:35:35 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev