00:18:40 -!- NyaaKitty has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:34:04 -!- joosa has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:34:10 -!- joosa has joined ##crawl-dev 00:44:50 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:49:20 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 01:06:23 puddinbane (L1 MDHe) ASSERT(y >= 1 && y <= sz.y) in 'libutil.cc' at line 797 failed. (D:1) 01:18:03 moin 01:26:10 Morning! 01:40:29 -!- Kurper has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:47:19 -!- Textmode has quit [*.net *.split] 01:47:19 -!- Keskitalo has quit [*.net *.split] 01:47:21 -!- nottwo has quit [*.net *.split] 01:53:35 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 01:53:35 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 01:53:35 -!- nottwo has joined ##crawl-dev 01:58:22 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:05:04 -!- Moriasc has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:14:16 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 02:18:28 hi 02:24:16 -!- TGWi has quit [*.net *.split] 02:24:16 -!- OG17 has quit [*.net *.split] 02:24:17 -!- hayenne has quit [*.net *.split] 02:24:17 -!- MarvinPA has quit [*.net *.split] 02:24:17 -!- MakMorn has quit [*.net *.split] 02:24:18 -!- rax has quit [*.net *.split] 02:24:18 -!- due has quit [*.net *.split] 02:24:19 -!- RjY has quit [*.net *.split] 02:24:21 -!- Textmode has quit [*.net *.split] 02:24:22 -!- Keskitalo has quit [*.net *.split] 02:24:23 -!- nottwo has quit [*.net *.split] 02:27:20 -!- evilmike has quit [] 02:30:24 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 02:30:24 -!- OG17 has joined ##crawl-dev 02:30:24 -!- hayenne has joined ##crawl-dev 02:30:24 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 02:30:24 -!- MakMorn has joined ##crawl-dev 02:30:24 -!- rax has joined ##crawl-dev 02:30:24 -!- due has joined ##crawl-dev 02:30:24 -!- RjY has joined ##crawl-dev 02:36:02 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 02:36:02 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 02:36:02 -!- nottwo has joined ##crawl-dev 03:52:51 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:23:13 -!- Twinge has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:24:06 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 04:26:12 moin guys 04:26:41 hey, since "giant" attribute in names got mostly removed - shouldn't "small" as in "small snake" be removed as well? 04:27:05 yes 04:27:09 garter snake was proposed 04:28:04 though, 'snake' and 'garter snake' sounds not-so-good 04:29:45 what about "blind snake" ? 04:30:28 Mountain Dwarf Crash (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3488) by Scynonymz 04:31:17 we're not using 'cobra' yet, right? 04:31:21 they're pretty iconic snakes 04:31:34 coral snake is another one (at least, in the US it is) 04:31:37 rattlesnake 04:31:54 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:32:08 cobra and rattlesnake are way more dangerous, aren't they? 04:32:13 cobras are among most dangerous snakes, yeah 04:32:28 i was thinking of a new name for the small one rather 04:32:45 since "snake" is kinda like a trademark already :D 04:32:55 not sure it's good to change that 04:33:01 moin kilobyte 04:33:09 well, small snake / snake works ok 04:33:16 i don't think garter snake / snake does 04:33:22 it's not clear that the latter is stronger 04:33:37 was this unarmed combat crash fixed, kilobyte? 04:36:44 uhm, what crash? Do you mean Scynonymz' report? 04:36:56 there was one the other day too 04:36:57 it is wonderfully lacking any details 04:37:10 and i think this crash was mentioned here 04:37:17 not sure... all he says it's a MD and unarmed 04:38:01 at least a quick smoke test shows unarmed works, including aux... so some more data is needed 04:38:41 5569c5117762a18eca130bf135245e7c04bceb1f 04:38:48 Fix a crash when clicking on a monster unarmed. 04:38:56 that might be it 04:39:25 ah, possible 04:39:50 i'll create new builds 04:39:59 we can tell the guy to test again 04:45:16 Unstable branch on CDO updated to: 0.8.0-a0-5384-g71eabdf (32) 04:48:46 Napkin: it's a tiles bug 04:57:12 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 04:57:50 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 04:58:04 MarvinPA: thanks for quick action! 05:03:20 Windows development builds on CDO updated to: 0.8.0-a0-5384-g71eabdf 05:05:15 -!- LordSlothN has joined ##crawl-dev 05:05:19 Hello? 05:06:30 Hello! 05:06:36 I'm looking through the tracker atm, but I suspect there is a weighting issue. 05:06:50 are you calling me fat 05:06:52 Since I've gotten back in the game, I've found FIVE rings of slaying 05:07:02 Two in todays game, before d:7 05:07:02 random occurrence, I'd say 05:07:06 I never find them 05:07:09 roughly one every day. 05:07:15 neither do I 05:07:16 that's not that unusual 05:07:22 Oh, okay. The game is just trying to keep me from leaving. 05:07:31 if you found 5 on one level, that'd be soemthing else entirely 05:08:09 It's just an outlier of coincidence, I suppose. I mean, I've been having trouble even reaching lair lately. 05:09:43 LordSlothN: do you think the game got harder? 05:10:16 the new uniques are harder 05:10:50 -!- LordSlothN is now known as LordSloth 05:11:22 some are consistently hard, which is good 05:11:35 I have doubts about Grinder and Terp, though 05:12:09 it's wrong to have some bozo be more deadly than Sigmund 05:12:17 we should fix brain feed 05:12:21 as a blinker, he's easier to escape, but only if you know what to do 05:12:21 and give it to grinder, rather than para 05:12:41 dpeg: oddly enough, I think the solo centaurs seem harder than the uniques. 05:13:02 we may buff Sigmund to return him back to his deserved place :p 05:13:15 As soon as one spawns with branded ammo, my MdHu in heavy armor goes down. 05:13:46 Even with a rod of destruction and a heal wounds potion (12 health before quaff, dead next turn) 05:14:24 I suppose the uniques might be tough, but I haven't had much trouble with them, aside from Edmund. Though i've been running a lot. 05:14:33 And the crossbow is -excellent- 05:14:36 -!- Moriasc has joined ##crawl-dev 05:15:08 a centaur isn't supposed to survive a single zap from any of rods of destruction 05:15:24 you hardly ever have one at that point, of course 05:15:31 LordSloth: people are complaining a lot about Grinder 05:15:37 not really sure they have a point, though 05:15:51 Grinder stepping on Sigmund's toes is a point, but not one they make :) 05:15:54 grinder is more dangerous than sigmund. If that's intended, fine, but it seems weird 05:16:47 i think the reason grinder gets so many more complaints is because paralysis is one of the most infuriating routes to death 05:17:48 at that point, paralysis hardly matters 05:18:11 Mu_: yes, that may well be 05:18:13 at what point? d:3? of couse it does 05:18:24 If a stun effect is planned as part of the melee moves, something like that for grinder might be an interesting nerf 05:18:26 *course 05:18:30 imps are damn hard to kill, though, and with his pain spell (d10 damage) can be a lot 05:19:10 the trick is to run away 05:19:11 you're very likely to get paralysed repeatedly which in combination with any centaur/orc priest/orc wizard/him casting with a decent ai/ogre etc is just death 05:19:44 the trick is always to run away :) 05:19:50 people are complaining about grinder? 05:19:52 casmith789: only when it's not! 05:19:55 elliptic: sure 05:20:22 I don't really think the complaints are that warranted... he is dangerous, sure, but he doesn't show up until d:3 05:20:37 (sigmund shows up on d:2) 05:20:48 kilobyte: a quick one: I am playing a DSWz^F right now. I believe that decomposition should be on 'p'. If you agree, would you code that? 05:21:05 grinder kills a higher percentage of people which reach him than sigmund, unless that changed recently 05:21:27 dpeg: yes, I've wanted that for a long time :) 05:21:43 dpeg: sure, why not 05:22:05 kilobyte: thank you. I like it when every new version is a bit smoother to play than the last one. 0.8 will be :) 05:22:23 casmith789: players are used to Sigmund. They need to adapt to Grinder. 05:22:50 part of the problem is just that players are used to a deeper grinder 05:23:31 he isn't even a new unknown unique, he is someone who was a pushover and now is not 05:23:50 he is quite new 05:24:00 he was in 0.7, no? 05:24:16 oh right, apparently. 05:24:22 okay not that new then 05:24:54 grinder can paralyse?! boooh! 05:24:57 when grinder spawns with a wand you have little chance of survival 05:25:10 unless you are lucky 05:25:13 elliptic: in 0.8 he was made stronger and moved a lot shallower 05:25:14 * Napkin adds force_stop to grinder * 05:25:22 kilobyte: that's my point 05:25:39 among D:3 kills, sigmund has 27% success rate, Grinder 48% 05:25:44 if he was a completely new unique, people would be taking him more seriously 05:25:44 most grinder deaths are to wands 05:26:05 well not most, almost half 05:26:09 !lg * ikiller=grinder s=kaux 05:26:10 389 games for * (ikiller=grinder): 95x by nerve-wracking pain, 75x a +0,+0 dagger of pain, 75x a +0,+0 hammer of pain, 42x a +0,+0 club of pain, 18x a +0,+0 whip of pain, 8x wand of lightning, 7x wand of cold, 5x wand of lightning {zapped: 1}, 5x wand of draining, 5x wand of fire, 4x wand of cold {zapped: 2}, 4x wand of lightning {zapped: 3}, 4x wand of disintegration, 3x wand of disintegration {z... 05:26:27 he can get really powerful wands, I think this is the problem 05:26:29 !lg * ikiller=grinder s=kaux kaux=~wand 05:26:29 81 games for * (ikiller=grinder kaux=~wand): 8x wand of lightning, 7x wand of cold, 5x wand of draining, 5x wand of lightning {zapped: 1}, 5x wand of fire, 4x wand of disintegration, 4x wand of lightning {zapped: 3}, 4x wand of cold {zapped: 2}, 3x wand of magic darts, 3x wand of fire {zapped: 2}, 3x wand of disintegration {zapped: 2}, 3x wand of lightning {zapped: 2}, 2x wand of cold {zapped: 5},... 05:26:45 Well, paralyisis is also as nasty as a giant eye with an ogre nearby 05:26:46 lol @ {zapped: N} 05:26:50 that should be removed 05:27:04 not interesting on death messages anyways 05:27:05 ckaux removes that iirc 05:27:06 In general, I think the early game is slightly easier (regarding monster generation) 05:27:15 oh hi 05:27:16 I still find ways to die, though 05:27:20 !lg * ikiller=grinder kaux=~wand s=ckaux 05:27:21 81 games for * (ikiller=grinder kaux=~wand): 26x wand of lightning, 18x wand of cold, 12x wand of fire, 9x wand of disintegration, 7x wand of draining, 5x wand of flame, 3x wand of magic darts, 1x wand of frost 05:27:26 Oddly not to the uniques. 05:27:28 I am almost certain the early game is harder 05:27:32 hm 05:27:32 elliptic: thanks! 05:27:33 @??grinder 05:27:34 Grinder (025) | Speed: 10 | HD: 6 | Health: 40 | AC/EV: 3/11 | Damage: 11 | Flags: 05demonic, evil, see invisible, !sil | Res: 06magic(24), 02cold++, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 322 | Sp: pain (d10), paralyse, blink. 05:27:36 oh 05:27:43 he needs the NO_HT_WAND flag 05:27:47 casmith789; LordSloth: I like these assessments 05:27:49 Well, I've not seen that many ogres, and only two or so centaurs on the way to d10 05:27:52 due: can you do that? 05:28:09 preventing him from getting the high-powered wands would help, yeah 05:28:26 There are SA complaints, but speculative complaints that SA does -so- well. 05:28:50 LordSloth: I heard there was an SA shitstorm of rage when CK^Makhleb got removed? 05:29:24 Well, relatively small to be a shitstorm, more of a two page bitchstorm 05:29:32 maybe three 05:29:39 ah, nothing serious then :) 05:29:46 -!- NyaaKitty has joined ##crawl-dev 05:30:07 Did they have any of those "What were they thinking!?!" postings? I love those. 05:30:23 <3 Paladin, btw 05:30:36 oh, the poor Napking 05:30:42 Well, I did my best to tune it out and not get wrapped up in a stupid discussion 05:30:44 ja! 05:30:48 !send Napkin Guttenberg, the real paladin (tm) 05:30:49 Sending Guttenberg, the real paladin (tm) to Napkin. 05:30:57 pfui! :D 05:31:07 Napkin: Achtung, der klebt :) 05:31:12 -!- Twinge has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:31:39 just when i started to like TSO you guys practially remove him - pity! 05:31:55 tso isn't removed 05:31:58 Napkin: you can switch E/Z->TSO just as well =) 05:31:58 you can take him at temple 05:32:01 pretty much 05:32:08 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 05:32:12 yeah, do Pr of zin -> TSO 05:32:15 ely & zin are less useful to start with 05:32:18 you'll retain all the piety mostly 05:32:20 no, they aren't 05:32:23 ely is way way better 05:32:30 Napkin: not true for Ely, and probably not true anymore for Zin 05:32:32 03due * r51e32761ad3a 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: Don't give Grinder a high-tier wand. 05:32:36 Thank you! 05:32:46 i'll try again, but i don't believe it 05:32:57 The other half of why I might think things earlier is twofold- gdr boost and being a MDHu. the crossbow is a -godsend- 05:33:08 LordSloth: you keep saying that :) 05:33:13 lunchtime, later 05:33:33 I might try something more neutral, because the MDEE also skewed my opinion based on 0.7 spellbook 05:33:48 later, breakfast me. 05:35:05 the other problematic unique is Terpsichore 05:35:09 not that i mentioned it before.. but could liquid fire's chance to destroy scrolls be a little bit lowered? 05:35:10 -!- intermezzo has joined ##crawl-dev 05:35:13 ;) 05:35:14 not because of being hard, but because of sick variance 05:35:29 Napkin: sticky flame <<<<<<<<<< fire crap 05:35:35 -!- hayenne has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:36:00 last time i got hit twice at the very beginning of the fight and lost 15 of 17 scrolls 05:36:25 and the time before i lost 8 of 13 (hit once) 05:36:36 isn't that a bit much? 05:37:24 it's mostly just mottled dragons and Elf 05:37:28 Also, I've had more success with my ogre runs than with my MdHu runs. I suspect I'm out of practice. Oh, and centaurs, the damn centaurs. 05:37:37 -!- hayenne has joined ##crawl-dev 05:37:55 -!- intermezzo has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:38:07 the former are relatively easy to avoid and drop your scrolls, the latter is well-known to be a bitch for your scrolls and potions so you know what to expect 05:38:17 quite spoilerish though 05:38:40 also the luck of getting so many slaying rings probably skews my difficulty reading. 05:39:12 -!- NyaaKitty has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:40:03 -!- hayenne has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:40:11 had i dropped a scroll i would have been dead, i think 05:40:11 -!- intermezzo has joined ##crawl-dev 05:40:13 open level, once on fire the centauers came 05:41:41 not that i would have helped much, but blink scrolls burnt first, too ;) 05:43:20 !tell dpeg oh, two other things on the difficulty front. One, my perspective is skewed by slaying rings. And two, one factor that makes the early game seem more difficult is the extra scroll types. Some of the old reliables like teleport seem harder to come by, not to mention the typical potion hunting difficulties. 05:43:20 Maximum message length is 300 characters. Eschew verbosity, Gladys! 05:43:20 !tell dpeg oh, two other things on the difficulty front. One, my perspective is skewed by slaying rings. And two, one factor that makes the early game seem more difficult is the extra scroll types. Some of the old reliables like teleport seem harder to come by 05:43:20 LordSloth: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 05:44:49 !tell dpeg and my old 2-stack identification strategy tends to result in seemingly fewer useful scrolls for early confrontations. The potion game is probably the same as always, though I do see more magic and agility potions than I'd like for heal wounds. Though I'd change my tune as anything other than MDHU. 05:44:50 LordSloth: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 05:46:43 are there actually any new scrolls in 0.8 other than curse jewellery? 05:47:17 and paper got removed 05:50:39 paper was renamed 05:50:40 old paper 05:50:40 at least it's in the list of un-id'd stuff now 05:50:40 amnesia 05:50:40 silence 05:50:40 ah, right, amnesia 05:50:40 silence isn't new... was around in 0.6 even iirc 05:50:40 well, vulnerability is 0.7, so... 05:50:40 what? no 05:50:40 oh, it isn't? 05:50:40 when did vulnerability come in? 05:50:41 vulnerability was around in 0.5, but it might well be older 05:51:13 scroll of poison arrow 05:51:33 that one doesn't show up in unid 05:51:36 it looks like vulnerability was added sometime in 2008 05:52:38 vulnerability and silence are so rare it's not even worth thinking about them affecting scroll choices 05:53:35 amnesia does make scroll identification a little trickier for non-casters, yeah 05:53:40 since it doesn't ID unless you have a spell memorized 05:53:40 IMO it should 05:53:44 -!- intermezzo is now known as hayenne 05:54:09 -!- hayenne has left ##crawl-dev 05:54:16 currently optimal play on MDFi is to remove your heavy armour and memorize a L1 spell so that amnesia will identify, even if you have no intention of casting it ever 05:54:17 it should say, "did you forget something?" 05:55:56 maprot :D 06:02:25 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 06:04:16 remove maprot from source please 06:11:15 +1 06:11:19 what of labs then 06:11:19 I had a thought on boring/no options etc D:1. If D:2 was about the same difficulty as D:1 (only a bit harder), you would have the option to take the stairs (as far as I'm concerned, you have that already, but anyway). This would be offset with new D:1 level monsters, only that the new ones would be engineered to be difficult against a certain subset of character builds each. 06:11:42 So. When you'd meet a monster that was generally easy, but hard against your build, you'd take the stairs and try to find easier prey on D:2. 06:11:48 Would that make any sense? 06:14:28 Keskitalo: from the perspective of what the Something Awful thread would look like, no. From a personal perspective? I dunno. I usually don't wake up at 4 AM. 06:14:53 ..okay! 06:15:06 I went to sleep at 1AM and woke up at 6AM. 06:15:11 So did the baby <3 06:15:17 "new D:1 monsters" is the hard part 06:15:23 TGWi: aye 06:15:30 keskitalo has a baby? 06:16:25 -!- LordSloth has quit [Quit: Using leafChat 2] 06:16:28 something like: the wind spirit; high EV, repel missiles, low HP, maybe even antimagic and regeneration. If you're a melee-er, you can land an instakill hit, but ranged would be hard. (auto-hit magic dart breaks this idea though) 06:16:34 TGWi: YEah, two months today 06:16:42 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 06:16:49 ah, congrats 06:16:55 thank you! 06:19:00 Keskitalo: sounds good 06:19:00 dpeg: You have 3 messages. Use !messages to read them. 06:19:12 I would start with adding the new monster to D:1 and not change anything else :) 06:19:32 hehe, cruel - but how can we bear to make it **easier** later on 06:19:34 !?!? 06:21:12 We are making things easier all the tme. 06:21:23 As I see it, DCSS 0.1-0.5 made things easier. 06:21:32 Of course, players complained anyway, but that's for free. 06:21:34 there was a move for more D:1 monsters back in the SF days, but I think the things that got implemented turned out later monsters 06:21:42 well frankly I only remember the fire crab 06:21:50 dpeg: That's probably true, yeah 06:22:34 Keskitalo: it started when Erik called for new monster ideas on r.g.r.m... happy days 06:22:56 later, there was a similar FR on the SF tracker, and I moved ideas from the r.g.r.m thread over there 06:23:05 yea 06:23:10 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 06:23:45 That might be a fun project that even I could tackle, I think we have enough ready code that could be assembled into effective new sets 06:23:50 but I'm just talking of course :P 06:26:17 Keskitalo: so much to do... sometimes I feel bogged down. Yesterday, we had greensnark here, and he lamented about the lack of guidance ("triage") towards bug fixing and then release 06:26:22 And he is right, of course. 06:27:04 if you do always one thing at a time, you'll eventually get done a lot :) 06:27:27 bhaak: but things to do may pile up faster than we can do them 06:27:29 * bhaak doesn't get done a lot currently and he blames it on mass effect 2 and big bang theory 06:28:51 -!- ais523_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:29:22 dpeg: that's why you need guidance and priorities. there is always something to do and often something that looks more attractive (even though you might not implement it correctly at first and then you have add fixing it onto the TODO heap) 06:29:48 bhaak: I know. We're sort of doing this :) 06:30:05 -!- ais523 has quit [Disconnected by services] 06:30:34 -!- ais523_ is now known as ais523 06:31:03 poor greensnark was lamenting yesterday that he didn't do it :) 06:38:02 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 06:45:19 -!- Shader_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:51:59 doo.. I'm not getting any curse weapon scroll anymore :-/ 06:52:18 last 6 remove curse turned to curse jewellery & armour 07:00:17 -!- LordSlothN has joined ##crawl-dev 07:02:20 -!- LordSlothN is now known as LordSloth 07:16:31 dpeg: aye, 'tis lamentable 07:18:20 Dungeon Olms had their pilot test today! Sounds like it went alright 07:20:53 leda is too good for a level 4 spell 07:23:54 syllogism: that's good! We were afraid it's not at some point. 07:24:21 hey, I said it was overpowered when it was implemented as a level 6 spell :P 07:25:06 :) 07:25:35 maybe the problem is players don't quite realize what it does 07:26:01 if you aren't spoiled you don't know it slows all monster actions by 1/3 07:26:39 every new addition is too good when you are the calibre of player who can do zot with two bits of a wood and an egg 07:26:52 I don't really understand how you would consider it underpowered otherwise as it's AoE, can't be resisted and has a decent duration 07:26:57 there's a minor drawback sure 07:34:56 hello 07:35:01 that's a lot of new v:8 maps, nice 07:36:21 I didn't know about M_NO_HT_WAND. How about giving it to Ijyb? 07:37:19 then he'll never kill anyone :( 07:37:31 we need m_only_wand_polymorph :P 07:40:09 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 07:49:51 maybe only for red sonja then 08:00:28 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 08:07:03 we can use ijyb ; nothing (perhaps with / ijyb ; rusty knife) 08:09:04 good idea 08:09:12 well, in red sonja, you can either startscum for an easy ijyb, or startscum for ijyb with a good wand, at the moment 08:09:25 thus, I think it'd technically make it harder to ban wands from ijyb there 08:09:30 as you're no longer giving the player the choice 08:10:03 (especially as startscumming only takes a few seconds in Sprint; however, it might be worth removing it on principle because it's startscumming) 08:13:50 the choice to scum? 08:14:07 If there's scumming, it should be removed. 08:14:08 It is not possible to eradicate startscumming compeltely. 08:14:13 of course 08:14:22 but we can remove wands from Ijyb hands 08:14:38 Players quitting because they didn't find [good item] by D:4... what can you do? 08:14:41 well, it's more you can choose what wand you get early by scumming until Ijyb has it 08:14:49 galehar: yes. But is Ijyb a threat without them? 08:14:51 that's probably a bad thing, but it does make Sprint easier 08:14:51 Less unavoidable deaths from powerful wands. Less startscumming 08:15:04 dpeg: the debate I think is about Ijyb in Red Sonja 08:15:09 ah 08:15:18 and given that he's guaranteed in the first room of the game, he can be scummed really simply and reliably atm 08:15:19 I'm talking about red sonja, not normal game 08:15:41 yes, I understand now 08:15:43 I know that I startscum Sprint to get the perfect first three rooms, and it only takes about a minute 08:15:57 ais523: if Red Sonja needs startscumming to be balanced, something is wrong 08:16:04 galehar: it doesn't 08:16:11 although it's a fun puzzle to work out what the perfect first three rooms are, including monster placement, exp pool manipulation, etc 08:16:13 that's what he's saying 08:16:16 I did a 2 streak on red sonja yesterday 08:16:28 However, there are easier and harder starts... the only way to solve that would be to remove randomness, which is not good either. 08:16:57 I believe that balance for Sprint is not the same thing as balance for Crawl. 08:17:01 proof that you don't need startscumming 08:17:07 it's pretty much impossible to make anything truly random early; either it's fixed and thus not random, or else it isn't fixed and thus startscummable 08:17:14 the only solution really is to put early randomness in things that don't really matter 08:17:19 but which are enough to avoid a predictable game plan 08:17:25 and regular Crawl does that quite well 08:17:41 high tier wands in Ijyb hands means insta-death or easier game. Both are undesirable 08:18:57 galehar: I agree that removing the wands is a good move. 08:30:20 03kilobyte * r3c38b99e2e9d 10/crawl-ref/source/ (libunix.cc state.cc state.h): Mention recent screen resizes in crash dumps. 08:30:31 03kilobyte * rab329a3bdc0a 10/crawl-ref/source/monster.cc: Get rid of silly hacks with crediting poison kills. 08:30:36 03kilobyte * rd6fcea90f9bb 10/crawl-ref/source/ (27 files): Track the source of monster enchantments. 08:30:36 03kilobyte * r8e056148897a 10/crawl-ref/source/ (tag-version.h tags.cc): Save mon_ench source when saving games. 08:31:33 I think all damage to monsters is properly credited now (or almost all...), so we can give partial xp now. 08:32:31 (summoner kill sniping abuse, monsters stealing xp by collateral damage to uniques you had nearly dead, etc) 08:32:42 dpeg: Fedhas to 'p', Kiku to 'a', right? 08:34:42 :( Trying to snipe was actually really intense and good fun. 08:35:59 hm, I thought that that was in already? 08:36:14 It seemed like it was to me... 08:36:30 st_: it was at some point but was removed because of bugginess 08:36:54 Moriasc: kill stealing is not the kind of fun we're looking for 08:37:01 a crapload of ways to deal damage was not tracked 08:41:20 for some reason, auto-explore recently started taking me to piles of items which i definitely have checked already 08:41:21 -!- ais523_ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:41:25 -!- ais523 has quit [Disconnected by services] 08:41:27 -!- ais523_ is now known as ais523 08:41:33 is that a known bug? 08:41:56 could be related to Ashenzari? I don't know.. 08:42:31 in Shoals? 08:42:40 no, independent on branch 08:44:12 maybe because with ashenzari i know that such piles have changed - because some monster picked something up from it? 08:45:00 galehar: It was cool because... well, I'd accept a certain amount of killstealing, while deeming it only worth trying to force full XP on big monster and uniques... but that meant I'd have to rein in my summons' damage, potentially causing myself a lot of trouble. 08:45:12 Whatever, I'm a bizarre masochist and the change was probably a long time coming x) 08:46:04 Moriasc: it's very meta gamey 08:50:05 "%player% revels in the glory of the killing blow!" 08:50:40 Napkin: do you use greedy_visited_item_stack? 08:51:24 explore_stop += greedy_visited_item_stack 08:51:26 yes 08:51:45 kilobyte: yes, please 08:53:00 Napkin: I don't think it's related to Ash. He doesn't do anything to stash management. 08:53:17 i'll keep an eye on it 08:53:19 You offer a prayer to Fedhas. 08:53:19 Fedhas is noncommittal. 08:53:19 A toadstool grows from a nearby corpse. 08:53:19 Fedhas appreciates your contribution to the ecosystem. 08:53:28 kilobyte: ooh, partial xp <3 08:53:30 is this too much spam? 08:53:34 wrong message order, too 08:53:35 consistent with other gods, though 08:53:47 the noncommital should probably come at the end, so you know your new rather than old piety? 08:54:04 feels pretty weird though... suddenly my char moves over half the map to check out a pile I have definitely visited before, galehar 08:54:08 "As you offer a prayer to Fedhas, a toadstool grows from a nearby corpse" would save one line pretty simply 08:54:42 "pretty simply"... Not for the one coding it ;) 08:54:59 I meant from an interface point of view 08:54:59 Napkin: you're positive you have visited it? 08:55:10 ais523: of course :) 08:55:11 (not to mention, it would be easy to code in a hacky way, but doing it properly would be a bit harder) 08:55:28 kilobyte: yes, too much spam, but we can cut it 08:56:10 yes, i've been noticing this the whole game already. In a level I have previous cleared ("Done exploring") the o key suddently makes my char checkout a pile. 08:56:46 first time I play Ashenzari though - but will try other chars laters, galehar 08:57:33 dpeg: every single god produces two lines per prayer, then possibly more if something happened 08:57:50 what about simply removing the newline between the first two lines? 08:57:57 You offer a prayer to Fedhas. Fedhas is noncommittal. 08:58:05 or would that overflow 80 chars with certain gods? 08:59:11 makes sense 08:59:24 it would obviously conflict with the reordering I just pushed 08:59:56 isn't the newline removed already whith condensed_messages being the default? 09:00:02 kilobyte: I know, and it's not ideal. However, don't bother with this now. 09:00:15 03kilobyte * r68eddacafc07 10/crawl-ref/source/ (6 files): Move Fedhas' decomposition to 'p'. 09:00:19 but it's not like a single sacrifice ever does massive changes to piety -- and if piety was affected, you'll get a separate message 09:00:20 Thank you! 09:00:27 03kilobyte * rf4105e0177cf 10/crawl-ref/source/godprayer.cc: Reorder prayer messages: show piety/penance after everything else. 09:00:47 kilobyte: yes, it's better to assume that nothing happens (no piety change), and give no message for that. Rather, print a message when something happened. 09:00:47 so draining and paralysis are not considered high tier wands. 09:00:57 galehar: Crawl humor :) 09:02:14 dpeg: do you mean, we could get rid of "Uncle Joe is noncommittal. Kim Ir Sen is exalted by your worship."? 09:02:37 kilobyte: yes. But there's no need to rush this. 09:02:48 Unless everyone thinks the same, just ignore the matter for now. 09:03:02 any changes to messaging would be easy, and we'll forget them otherwise 09:03:04 but ok 09:03:34 piety is on the main screen now. So maybe we can get rif of those messages if they are too spammy. 09:03:35 kilobyte: we will not forget, I think.... players and developers are aware of message spam. 09:03:47 kilobyte: but if it's easy, just go ahead :) 09:04:29 dpeg: I'm amused. _Something bites the plant! The plant looks sick. 09:04:51 The plant turns into a nuclear power plant. You radiate. 09:05:25 ...i'm tempted to add that to ideas/bad_ideas. 09:05:37 Anyways, my luck today is even more out of whack 09:06:25 In addition to two rings of slaying: armour of the dragon king, lajatang of slaying 09:06:35 of speed 09:06:51 So I'm not sure my perception of challenge is worth paying attention to 09:07:57 LordSloth: your version is gimped, get a new one! (I know you play on CDO :) 09:08:37 I transfered to the latest version after your lunch, my breakfast 09:08:40 What changed? 09:09:18 Napkin: do you know offhand how to edit tables in the forum? 09:10:22 mysql tables? 09:10:28 or html tables? 09:11:51 does not matter 09:12:02 https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=701 09:14:49 You can't make proper tables in a forum post 09:14:59 but this numbers aren't very useful anyway 09:18:58 ok 09:27:29 Crashed in Abyss (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3489) by XuaXua 09:40:20 -!- ais523 has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:41:35 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 09:43:33 -!- LordSloth has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:47:00 -!- ais523_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:48:00 -!- ais523 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:48:07 damnit, I messed up with one of my orc:4 vaults, the orcs with xbows equipment isn't working right (seemed fine when I tested it before...) 09:48:12 -!- ais523_ is now known as ais523 09:54:48 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 09:54:53 b 09:57:52 any around who can quickly fix it for me? 09:57:58 anyone* 10:03:10 -!- eith has quit [Quit: sleep] 10:04:33 -!- ortoslon has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:05:05 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 10:05:26 -!- ais523 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:05:44 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 10:09:00 -!- ais523 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:09:13 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 10:09:20 I attached it here if anyone has a moment: https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3391 10:17:48 Racial armor missing text identical non-racial armor uses (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3490) by XuaXua 10:18:53 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 10:20:09 st_: will do in a moment, thanks 10:20:48 -!- LordSlothN has joined ##crawl-dev 10:21:18 -!- LordSlothN is now known as LordSloth 10:23:15 soul (L11 DGNe) (Lab) 10:24:41 soul (L11 DGNe) (Lab) 10:25:42 soul (L11 DGNe) (Lab) 10:26:41 soul (L11 DGNe) (Lab) 10:26:56 soul (L11 DGNe) (Lab) 10:34:41 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:42:15 hey - now that there's the skill screen with [*: show all] - how about showing progress of skills you have <0 there? 10:46:26 -!- blackpenguin has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 10:49:41 -!- blackpenguin has joined ##crawl-dev 10:51:49 alternatively: baby snake - like aligators have :) 10:55:32 do baby monsters get a charming attack? 10:56:40 they do, indirectly 10:56:49 provided your imagination works well enough :P 11:01:47 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 11:03:04 how about, small snake -> sidewinder, snake -> adder 11:03:33 Napkin: I have been asked to remove it. The "show all" option is to check aptitudes. You don't know the level 0 skills yet. 11:03:38 anyway, have to go. 11:03:40 bye. 11:03:42 -!- galehar has quit [] 11:04:54 Ragdoll (L18 MuBe) (Lab) 11:05:15 Ragdoll (L18 MuBe) (Lab) 11:07:11 RjY: i think i'd prefer rattlesnake for snake 11:07:17 since it keeps snake in the name 11:07:35 Ragdoll (L18 MuBe) (Lab) 11:09:11 Ragdoll (L18 MuBe) (Lab) 11:11:28 Ragdoll (L18 MuBe) (Lab) 11:14:43 -!- ortoslon has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:14:50 anaconda -> subtracter 11:15:04 jelly -> divider 11:15:13 or multiplier, I guess 11:15:18 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 11:21:23 valrus: tormentor -> divider :D 11:21:32 :D 11:21:41 Ragdoll (L18 MuBe) (Lab) 11:23:05 -!- Moriasc has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:23:11 Crashing in labyrinth (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3491) by Ragdoll 11:26:18 Ragdoll (L18 MuBe) (Lab) 11:34:10 Ragdoll (L18 MuBe) (Lab) 11:34:30 Ragdoll (L18 MuBe) (Lab) 11:35:11 Ragdoll (L18 MuBe) (Lab) 11:36:12 Ragdoll (L18 MuBe) (Lab) 11:37:05 !lm Ragdoll type=crash -log 11:37:06 19. Ragdoll, XL18 MuBe, T:49110 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/Ragdoll/crash-Ragdoll-20110223-173613.txt 11:37:54 some monster pathfinding crash, it seems 11:38:25 or well.. change_labyrinth calls monster_pathfind::init_pathfind for some reason 11:38:59 and that segfaults 11:39:40 oh god 11:40:18 the coord_def variant of monster_pathfind::init_pathfind calls mons->is_wall_clinging() 11:40:34 on a NULL mons 11:47:40 Zaba: the new clinging changes? 11:53:23 I think so 11:53:32 -!- Kurper has joined ##crawl-dev 11:53:32 I elaborated on mantis 11:53:45 I don't want to try to fix it myself, because I have no idea about other use cases of monster_pathfind 11:53:56 I'll leave it to somebody with experience in that code :P 12:20:27 ??loro 12:20:28 I don't have a page labeled loro in my learndb. 12:20:52 What's the name of that rare invisible demon? 12:21:12 ??lorocyproca 12:21:13 lorocyproca[1/2]: Congratulations on typing that. It's invisible. That's basically the only interesting thing about it. 12:21:17 woo, got it right 12:22:15 * dpeg awards MarvinPA a medal. 12:22:49 !learn add loro see {lorocyproca} 12:22:50 loro[1/1]: see {lorocyproca} 12:28:23 03dpeg * rfea6acadd958 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/orc.des: Fix to st_orc_rangers (by st). 12:28:29 03dpeg * r1e0e9fcb4ec5 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/abyss.des: More abyss vaults (evilmike). 12:54:57 -!- Moriasc has joined ##crawl-dev 13:01:09 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 13:01:41 -!- ortoslon has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:02:02 !tell galehar well, that's a pity. would have been nice to know the <1 skills' progress 13:02:03 Napkin: OK, I'll let galehar know. 13:02:58 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 13:07:51 i'll add a cronjob to update the knowledge bot's learndb once a week.. manually is baaad 13:08:56 -!- LordSloth has left ##crawl-dev 13:09:26 btw.. keeping "bad_ideas" is just a waste of space and time and should be written directly to /dev/null 13:11:39 :) 13:12:08 I am partially guilty. 13:12:08 we've actually implemented some things that originally showed up on bad ideas 13:12:46 Let me pull a Guttenberg: Here's my heart felt apology. And now let me be your role model again. 13:13:06 probably, Eronarn - but not because that idea ever showed up there.. rather because someone added it. I bet nobody ever checked any ??bad_idea[n] 13:13:48 *added it and someone saw it 13:17:52 -!- ortoslon has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:18:19 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 13:19:01 i once quoted a changelog entry i found humorous in ##crawl and someone added it to bad_ideas, quoting me 13:19:13 lol 13:22:20 -!- Adeon has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:23:39 -!- Adeon has joined ##crawl-dev 13:24:20 03j-p-e-g * r3e33dd52fba0 10/crawl-ref/source/tilepick.cc: Also fix crashes when searching the database for tentacles. 13:24:31 03j-p-e-g * r29219f319fc1 10/crawl-ref/source/ (command.cc describe.cc): Give an indication of returning to the main screen from the db search. 13:24:32 03j-p-e-g * rf2292a555550 10/crawl-ref/source/ (command.cc describe.cc): Fix necessity of double keypress in database search. 13:24:36 03j-p-e-g * r2dd22a7c8ce6 10/crawl-ref/source/command.cc: Fix db search footer line not appearing for monster descriptions. 13:24:37 03j-p-e-g * rc8b2faea7f78 10/crawl-ref/source/ (command.cc mon-util.cc mon-util.h tilepick.cc): Fix #3313: Zombie tiles in the database search causing crashes. 13:27:54 -!- monqy has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:29:02 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 13:32:13 -!- ortoslon1 has joined ##crawl-dev 13:32:13 -!- ortoslon has quit [Disconnected by services] 13:32:20 03MarvinPA * r9654b67fafff 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-cast.cc: Don't waste a turn/MP when failing to cast Sublimation of Blood 13:32:21 03MarvinPA * ra887a8f038bf 10/crawl-ref/source/ (main.cc spl-selfench.cc): Don't allow immediate recasting of Death's Door 13:32:32 03MarvinPA * rea0c9cee83e6 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/vaults.des: Swap Wiglaf for Rupert in the Vaults ambush (david_vaults_3) 13:41:51 looks good! 13:41:57 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: bye] 13:44:39 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 13:47:36 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:09:55 a swamp dragon hide does not mention how much it can be enchanted 14:11:36 it does when you make it into armour 14:14:41 -!- Moriasc has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:16:20 does it mention it can be enchanted into sda? 14:31:38 -!- Moriasc has joined ##crawl-dev 14:32:12 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 14:42:09 AlphaQ (L14 TrMo) (Lab) 14:42:45 AlphaQ (L14 TrMo) (Lab) 14:52:14 03j-p-e-g * r51fe31ea0c5a 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-pathfind.cc: Fixes crashes during labyrinth shifts. 14:52:25 03j-p-e-g * r995edf2214ba 10/crawl-ref/source/items.cc: Nuke a item-stacking special case now that mummy decay is gone. 14:52:45 -!- syllogism has quit [] 14:53:55 ooh, it's gone? yaaay 14:54:33 yaaaay 14:57:09 -!- ortoslon1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:02:25 AlphaQ (L14 TrMo) (Lab) 15:10:27 -!- pointless_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:25:59 mutarobin (L11 DSCK) (Lab) 15:26:22 mutarobin (L11 DSCK) (Lab) 15:27:00 mutarobin (L11 DSCK) (Lab) 15:27:26 CDO update would be nice 15:27:36 apparently lab shifts crash people but jpeg already fixed it 15:29:14 m'kay 15:33:12 mutarobin (L11 DSCK) (Lab) 15:33:28 -!- neunon_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:33:29 -!- neunon_ is now known as Guest9033 15:34:10 Unstable branch on CDO updated to: 0.8.0-a0-5403-g995edf2 (32) 15:35:04 -!- dexap has joined ##crawl-dev 15:35:41 kilobyte: thanks, the lab doesn't crash now 15:39:58 thank jpeg 15:44:19 using "Fatig" instead of "Fatigue" is terrible, guys 15:44:39 the more I look at that the more my teeth hurt and my toenails curl up 15:47:17 -!- Gandelf has joined ##crawl-dev 15:51:21 -!- monqy has quit [*.net *.split] 15:51:22 -!- Zaba has quit [*.net *.split] 15:51:22 -!- joosa has quit [*.net *.split] 15:51:22 -!- kilobyte has quit [*.net *.split] 15:51:22 -!- jld has quit [*.net *.split] 15:51:25 -!- Zao has quit [*.net *.split] 15:51:25 -!- Vandal has quit [*.net *.split] 15:51:25 -!- st_ has quit [*.net *.split] 15:51:25 -!- blackflare has quit [*.net *.split] 15:51:26 -!- varmin has quit [*.net *.split] 15:51:41 -!- dazzle has quit [*.net *.split] 15:51:41 -!- xyblor has quit [*.net *.split] 15:51:42 -!- mspang has quit [*.net *.split] 15:51:42 -!- ivan has quit [*.net *.split] 15:51:42 -!- dexap has quit [*.net *.split] 15:51:43 -!- stabwound has quit [*.net *.split] 15:51:44 -!- Eronarn has quit [*.net *.split] 15:51:44 -!- Sequell has quit [*.net *.split] 15:51:45 -!- blackpenguin has quit [*.net *.split] 15:51:45 -!- paxed has quit [*.net *.split] 15:51:45 -!- neunon has quit [*.net *.split] 15:51:46 -!- valrus has quit [*.net *.split] 15:51:46 -!- Shader_ has quit [*.net *.split] 15:51:47 -!- bhaak has quit [*.net *.split] 15:51:47 -!- Henzell has quit [*.net *.split] 15:51:49 -!- Guest9033 is now known as neunon 15:56:14 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 15:56:14 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 15:56:14 -!- joosa has joined ##crawl-dev 15:56:14 -!- jld has joined ##crawl-dev 15:56:14 -!- kilobyte has joined ##crawl-dev 15:56:14 -!- Zao has joined ##crawl-dev 15:56:14 -!- Vandal has joined ##crawl-dev 15:56:14 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:56:14 -!- blackflare has joined ##crawl-dev 15:56:14 -!- varmin has joined ##crawl-dev 16:00:06 -!- NyaaKitty has joined ##crawl-dev 16:03:34 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 16:04:02 hey 16:04:10 hi galehar 16:04:14 !seen due 16:09:28 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:12:59 -!- Gretell has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:14:56 -!- CIA-26 has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:16:53 -!- Moriasc has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:16:54 -!- Eifeltrampel has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:16:54 -!- Napkin has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:17:41 -!- Mu_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:17:49 -!- Eifeltrampel has joined ##crawl-dev 16:20:41 -!- jbenedetto has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:20:41 -!- Zannick has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:20:41 -!- Hehfiel has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:20:41 -!- Adeon has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:20:41 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:22:05 -!- felirx has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:22:05 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:34:52 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 16:34:53 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 16:34:59 ok 16:35:52 I was thinking of using the same code for Leda's and shallow water, and apply the same penalty as the player (3+random2(8)) 16:36:08 -!- Adeon has joined ##crawl-dev 16:36:51 so instead of reducing monster speed, I would increase energy cost when moving in shallow water or liquefied ground. 16:37:06 yes, good idea 16:37:19 You'll need to add a new do-nothing enchantment for messages though. 16:37:50 -!- Napkin_ has quit [Changing host] 16:37:50 -!- Napkin_ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:38:06 -!- Zaba has quit [Changing host] 16:38:06 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 16:38:18 I guess I can use the current mechanic of ENCH_SLOW for messages. The actual speed reduction doesn't check it, it's all based on liquefied() checks 16:38:30 ah, good 16:38:34 i thought that was how it worked :) 16:39:31 -!- jbenedetto has joined ##crawl-dev 16:40:10 shallow water has some exceptions. Amphibious monsters and large monsters don't flounder. I suppose Leda's has no such things. 16:40:39 everyone standing on the ground and not insubstantial should be affected. 16:41:05 btw, I was surprised by the insubstantial check. Turns out there is an insubstantial monster which doesn't levitate: electric golem. 16:41:54 -!- Eifeltrampel has joined ##crawl-dev 16:41:54 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:41:54 -!- neunon has joined ##crawl-dev 16:42:32 galehar: rock worms should possibly be fine with Leda's 16:43:04 -!- Henzell has joined ##crawl-dev 16:43:09 and could make an argument for the large monsters, too 16:43:10 and earth elementals? 16:43:35 some things sink waist deep -they only sink boot deep 16:44:03 MarvinPA: yeah that'd make sense (but maybe the spell itself should harm them) 16:44:30 -!- pointless__ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:44:50 -!- Gretell has joined ##crawl-dev 16:46:05 you don't need these special cases, earth elementals walk around like anything else and it's reasonable for shifting ground to impede rock worms too 16:46:13 seeing how easily passwall's interrupted 16:46:48 OG17: i don't think we need them, but it's a possibility. also rock worms swim through the earth, i believe (like nomes are supposed to), rather than passwalling 16:47:02 -!- neunon is now known as Guest81219 16:47:34 due: Aren't monsters supposed to be floundering when affected by Leda's? 16:47:35 galehar: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 16:47:40 !messages 16:47:41 (1/1) Napkin said (3h 45m 37s ago): well, that's a pity. would have been nice to know the <1 skills' progress 16:47:58 "rock worms ignore leda" is so unnoticable that I wouldn't think it's worth doing 16:48:01 -!- pointless_ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:48:04 anyway 16:48:10 -!- pointless__ is now known as pointless_ 16:48:33 -!- Kronusdark has quit [Quit: Kronusdark] 16:48:34 that is a good point, yes 16:48:51 -!- valrus_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:49:02 galehar, player already flounders 16:49:07 i think large monsters being okay is probably a good starting point 16:49:19 -!- pointless_ has quit [Client Quit] 16:50:02 why? It's not like wading through quicksand 16:52:44 -!- blackflare has quit [] 16:53:52 OG17: what? 16:54:35 why would large monsters ignore it 16:55:10 OG17: the floundering 16:55:12 not the movement 16:55:21 yes, why 16:55:37 because it's much less of an impediment to them 16:55:48 (why) 16:56:07 are we talking about shallow water or leda here 16:56:14 larger feet, doesn't cover them as high, more weight/inertia 16:56:23 both, it's already in for shallow water 16:56:23 let's talk about lava 16:56:29 it should be in for leda's too 16:56:37 leda isn't like quicksand 16:56:38 again 16:56:55 look up liquidification or whatever, it isn't literal 16:57:24 nah, instead i am going to have a lol at you telling me to look it up 16:57:44 k 16:57:55 TGWi: lava orcs don't flounder in lava 16:58:28 let's lol at og17 17:00:18 (why) 17:00:41 liquefaction is the pseudo-liquid state that a solid takes when a certain type of shaking or vibrating action is applied to it 17:01:59 TGWi: hint: i found the name when reading an article about it 17:02:11 in other words being tall doesn't do anything 17:02:19 read harder 17:02:25 buildings: they aren't affected by liquefaction because they're tall 17:02:49 http://www.news.com.au/world/quake-aftershock-hits-christchurch/story-e6frfkyi-1226009960218 17:02:51 TGWi: buildings aren't designed to correct their balance (or to move) 17:03:01 ((well, except the ones that are designed to move)) 17:03:11 TGWi: buildings are *definitely* affected by liquefaction 17:03:20 due: don't be ridiculous dude 17:03:21 most buildings do not expect their foundations to sink or change state 17:03:33 most people don't expect their foundations to sink or change state 17:03:36 (or most ogres) 17:03:41 one of those two can respond to that happening 17:03:45 one can't 17:03:59 so can humans though? 17:03:59 ttp://resources0.news.com.au/images/2011/02/24/1226011/095224-earthquake-recovery.jpg 17:04:03 Er. 17:04:03 an monster that's slowed by unstable footing isn't going to be able to act normally either 17:04:05 http://resources0.news.com.au/images/2011/02/24/1226011/095224-earthquake-recovery.jpg 17:04:07 even if it's tall! 17:04:32 OG17: i think ideally it would be a sliding scale instead of no penalty / 50% miss rate, but 17:05:14 how about everything on the ground is affected the same way 17:05:21 that sounds like a good plan for a status effect 17:05:41 (an monster) 17:05:48 OG17: that's what I'm going for. 17:06:03 neato 17:06:03 galehar: hi5 17:06:06 i'd rather it be consistent with water 17:06:14 it's not water, so 17:06:31 being tall makes a difference when you're wading 17:06:34 because water 17:08:09 not sure what you think leda's actually is 17:08:17 do you think it is like, the ground shaking or something 17:08:20 because that's not what it is 17:09:46 it's also not like a pool of quicksand 17:09:52 large monsters aren't affected by shallow water because they have solid ground under the water. That's not really the case with Leda's. 17:10:07 And also, if all large monsters are unaffected, it weakens the spell a lot. 17:10:15 I think that's the disconnect actually 17:10:39 if your torso is sticking out of water, you can swing without that part of you being slowed by water 17:10:49 but if it's the actual ground, it doesn't matter 17:11:04 @??ijyb 17:11:04 Ijyb (02g) | Speed: 10 | HD: 3 | Health: 28 | AC/EV: 2/12 | Damage: 4 | Res: 06magic(12) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 25. 17:12:18 galehar: the added ijyb+sprint check in f21d9677 has absolutely no effect, as the mon->hit_dice < 5 picks him up before it even gets to the ijyb check 17:16:03 Ijyb has 5 HD 17:16:18 galehar: presumably the ground is only liquefied to a certain depth (otherwise they would drown) 17:16:40 and/or be totally unable to move/attack 17:17:14 OG17: swinging a sword takes more than just your torso fyi 17:17:33 have you ever walked in a swamp? Your feet sink, you don't drown, but you certainly don't have a stable footing, whatever your size. 17:18:29 also, as I said earlier, large monsters being unaffected would greatly weaken the spell and gameplay > realism 17:19:02 of course it takes your body but in the context of gameplay and especially not floundering in shallow water it works 17:19:08 large monsters being affected is a gameplay difference from shallow water (also note that there are large player races!) 17:19:19 when it's a very similar effect otherwise 17:19:22 if anything you're arguing for floundering in shallow water and not leda's 17:19:58 I said that wrong 17:20:23 my position is that leda's isn't sufficiently different from standing in water to make it work differently from water and none of the explanations for why it is actually different have been at all convincing 17:24:01 -!- eith has quit [Quit: sleep] 17:24:39 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 17:24:51 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:27:32 Eronarn: so because they are not different enough, you think they should be identical? 17:28:03 galehar: no; i think that they should be identical unless there's a compelling reason for them to be different, mechanically or flavor-wise 17:28:24 monsters unaffected by shallow water and affected by Leda's are all the large and bigger monsters + all the amphibious one. That's a lot of monsters. 17:29:02 "it wouldn't work at full effect on some monsters" isn't very compelling given that this is true of almost all spells in crawl 17:29:36 also, making more spells care about size is good 17:29:39 it's very underused right now 17:32:24 shallow water means you're largely submerged in actual liquid 17:32:31 it's not the same idea in the first place 17:33:29 again, what do you think leda's actually is 17:33:37 So, what's a good message for a monster fumbling is attack because of Leda's? 17:33:51 "the monster fumbles around."? 17:34:31 can the water message be used? 17:34:34 what does it say when the player fumbles? 17:34:51 The orc splashes around in water. 17:34:58 well then 17:35:21 player uses an "unstable footing" message, though? 17:35:25 or is that something else 17:35:32 player message is better: "Your unstable footing causes you to fumble your attack" 17:36:40 that flavor's a little inconsistent with large things not fumbling in water but whatever 17:37:47 "The orc becomes momentarily stuck in the liquid earth!" 17:37:52 anyway "the monster loses its footing" sound better than "fumbles around" I think 17:38:11 You have no footing in liquid earth, though. 17:38:15 due: <3 17:39:33 you have to be standing on something 17:40:08 and that message sounds like larger monsters could actually be immune 17:40:19 (they should be, if they're immune to shallow water) 17:40:55 ((if you think leda's isn't like shallow water for some reason, please explain how monsters in it are actually standing/moving/attacking. preferably draw a picture of this)) 17:41:07 -!- Gandelf has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 17:41:30 a) There is a limit to how "deep" the liquefaction goes. 17:41:47 -!- blackpenguin has joined ##crawl-dev 17:41:49 b) It is more soggification than liquefaction: there are clumps of thicker and clumps of thinner. 17:42:05 c) You can find balance if you're sinking but it's quite thick so you aren't sinking so fast. 17:42:07 OG17: go draw a picture 17:42:30 d) Otherwise, you are sinking very fast and cannot attack. 17:44:07 e) so it should work the same as shallow water 17:44:29 Well, no. Shallow water *is* liquid with a solid bottom. 17:44:46 as opposed to this, which is liquefied earth with a solid bottom 17:45:04 liquefied earth is more like mud than water 17:45:11 Let's pretend I didn't say a). 17:45:22 Or assume that the depth is deeper than shallow water, as far as we are concerned. 17:45:34 And shallow water is a thinner liquid than liquefied earth. 17:45:37 and it doesn't have a solid bottom. It's just the thickness that makes you stop sinking in it. 17:45:44 let's talk about megabats, that's a more interesting argument 17:45:51 megabat los 17:45:58 can I draw a picture of a megabat 17:46:02 yes 17:46:09 OG17: no, you can draew a megapicture 17:46:10 preferably a square megabat 17:46:34 don't we have terabats and picobats now 17:46:44 due: if you want to just design this around making large monsters fumble, you can just say so, you don't have to try and come up with terrible rationalizations for it 17:46:55 your design choice will still be bad but at least you won't be wasting time 17:47:24 Eronarn: a) I don't *have* to design this around making large monsters fumble. It is already designed around this. b) I fail to see how any of these are terrible rationalizations. 17:47:53 "it works like this" "wait nevermind i don't like that conclusion, it works like this" 17:48:21 No, it still works like that -- I just realised that the way I said it meant you were going to assume an incorrect conclusion. 17:48:38 It's not liquid + solid bottom, it's liquid + gradual fall off to solidity. 17:48:38 feel free to explain how monsters are moving around in it if they aren't standing 17:50:30 due: I guess shallow water and liquefied earth don't stack, do they? 17:50:44 Eronarn: "magic" ;) 17:50:46 there's no check in liquefied() for feat 17:51:16 galehar: No, they don't -- if they do, that is na oversight on my part. 17:51:25 due: ok 17:52:48 next we should add a feature that small monsters move normal in but large monsters fumble in and also it affects fliers but not levitators 17:52:59 this will have compelling gameplay effects, for some reason 17:53:38 tunnels? 17:53:53 :P 17:55:11 Zannick: nah, spiderwebs. or tree branches 17:59:51 one small problem: how would you show a mosquito/bat in a tree on console? 18:00:08 kilobyte: combining characters? 18:00:14 :D <3 unicode 18:00:23 03galehar * r7d6f6583098b 10/crawl-ref/source/areas.cc: Don't liquefy water. 18:00:29 03galehar * rf80d95fbec4a 10/crawl-ref/source/monster.cc: Monsters move slowly in shallow water. 18:00:33 :o 18:01:45 -!- jld_ is now known as jld 18:06:33 due: not on PuTTY or xterm :( 18:07:17 :( 18:07:31 Damn our having to support such puny technologies! 18:07:32 putty can use unicode 18:07:40 Zannick: combining unicode characters? 18:07:52 nor Windows console, but this one at least can be replaced since no one ever relies on it being actual text 18:07:58 i thought combining unicode characters just results in more unicode 18:10:03 actually, PuTTY claims it supports combining characters, but only if all glyphs exist in the font you're using. 18:10:20 in other words, adding umlauts and accents can be expected to work 18:11:02 Hm, but what accents combine with 7? 18:30:32 Crash entering labyrinth (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3492) by wesleyshaver 18:34:02 -!- galehar has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:53:12 -!- Zannick has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 18:53:15 -!- Zannick has joined ##crawl-dev 19:10:17 -!- blackflare has joined ##crawl-dev 19:11:36 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:14:06 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 19:32:55 -!- Kronusdark has joined ##crawl-dev 19:47:36 -!- ivan has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:50:58 Weird message on D:17 (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3493) by dsirus5 19:53:15 -!- ivan has joined ##crawl-dev 20:05:51 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:13:52 -!- Kronusdark has quit [Quit: Kronusdark] 20:32:12 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 20:33:12 -!- xyblor has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:33:26 -!- dexap has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:33:58 -!- xyblor has joined ##crawl-dev 20:35:21 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 20:35:21 -!- paxed has quit [Changing host] 20:35:21 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 20:40:23 -!- TGWi has left ##crawl-dev 20:41:35 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 22:01:35 -!- upsy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:08:47 -!- Moriasc_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:19:31 -!- xyblor has left ##crawl-dev 22:26:19 03MarvinPA * r0fecdd1629b8 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/lair.des: Reduce Lair:8 loot 22:53:52 -!- NyaaKitty has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:32:12 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 23:38:16 Windows development builds on CDO updated to: 0.8.0-a0-5410-g0fecdd1 23:52:15 Why is this book unliked by Cheibriados? (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3494) by simonj