00:19:39 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 00:32:36 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 01:05:34 -!- TGWmike has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:25:03 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:26:39 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 01:33:16 -!- valrus_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:37:40 I'm putting together a few abyss rune vaults, most of them just use normal monsters. One idea I have involes elephants (and hellephants), with a couple of "pink elephants" thrown in that have Mislead. I can modify the regular elephant tile for that 01:37:53 but i'm wondering if it's ok if I do that? Like, should mislead be mara-only? I'm fine with that 01:46:18 that sounds excessively silly 01:46:58 yes, that too 01:47:40 The game already has "hellephants" though, and I think mislead would be rather interesting in the abyss due to the high variety of monsters, and the inability to just jump up and down the stairs to cure it 01:48:28 i have nothing against other monsters having mislead, but i think pink elephants are a step too far 01:48:51 hellephants have a silly name but are a serious monster 01:48:54 heh 01:49:37 well, that's why I figured I'd mention the vault here before I go any further with it, this particular one toes the line between "weird" and "just stupid" 01:49:40 fuscia elephant 01:50:10 a statue that misleads you while you're in LOS could be neat 01:50:39 we need more statue types 01:56:28 could do that. My worry with statues is that the player might not know immediately that the statue is doing it. I suppose I could name it "hypnotist statue" or something like that 01:58:01 fuscia elephant-shaped crystal statue 01:58:44 maybe what this game really needs is hypno toads 02:35:45 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 02:59:16 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:04:17 evilmike, bah. No pink elephants, please. 03:04:30 we've got enough dues, we don't need another one :P 03:05:49 heh heh 03:06:50 due has a thing for silly names, and also a thing for being defensive about silly names :P 03:06:55 see also: megabats :P 03:07:02 the other (less silly) idea I am working with now is a "psychic statue" with mislead and a room behind it full of random abyss enemies and a rune 03:07:21 I don't have the skill to make my own tile for that though, 03:07:44 sorry, the only thing I can say is "the hell with tiles" 03:08:36 they shouldn't be a limiting factor to vault makers' creativity: Disregard them for now. 03:08:46 if the vault turns out to be a good idea, somebody'll make a tile anyway 03:08:50 I'm not much of a tiles player either, I just like things to look good 03:09:00 but I agree with that sentiment 03:10:16 evilmike: mislead is mara only, fyi 03:10:29 fair enough, I won't use the idea then 03:10:37 but you could use something else instead 03:11:26 confusion is OCS so no that :( 03:11:46 a new area of effect spell woul dbe cool 03:11:55 anyway, to the windoows machine for... "fun" :/ 03:17:48 malign gateway seems to be monster castable... heh... 03:21:16 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 03:22:05 do amulets of resist mutation protect against all mutations equally? 03:24:54 no 03:25:02 they only give 50% protection against mutations from glow 03:25:12 (and 90% protection normally) 03:38:48 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 03:51:51 you can order allies to attack unknown (feature) mimics 03:53:25 that's just because your allies are (vice) presidents, I'm sure 04:10:51 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 04:21:24 due: a while ago we talked about making Shatter pure Earth 04:22:14 someone just raised this idea again. It makes sense to me, since Shatter is so much weaker than the three storms 04:22:38 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 04:36:35 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:39:42 banished dancing weapons...aren't (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3355) by MrMisterMonkey 04:44:29 impressive, how 2 kobolds and a jackal, all in shallow water, while I stood on solid ground, kicked my butt so badly, even though i had a dagger of freezing 04:45:24 i wouldn't hit anything if standing in shallow water 04:55:01 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 05:13:53 kilobyte: it's on my list 05:14:04 kilobyte: I might go and do that now, thanks for the reminder 05:22:50 argh, I screwed up git somehow :/ 05:29:05 -!- evilmike has quit [] 05:31:31 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 05:31:48 KoboldLord has some really good ideas on the wiki. 05:33:48 dpeg! 05:34:42 dpeg, I am about to make controversial changes. :D 05:39:50 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:40:28 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 05:40:28 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 05:41:18 kilobyte: okay, Shatter lost tmut :) 05:41:22 haven't pushed yet, will do so shortly 05:43:58 I'm hoping that changing meph to hex/air/pois is not one of the "really good ideas" 05:44:27 shouldn't it be Copromancy/Air? 05:44:33 kilobyte: <3 05:44:49 st_: It losing conjurations is unlikely, imho. 05:44:58 Conj/Air/Pois makes thematic sense. 05:45:02 while it may be too easy for conjurers to disable enemies with meph, removing Conj will just make Conj even more one-sided 05:45:14 conj/hex/air/pois! 05:45:16 You're (conjuring) a cloud (air) of (poison). 05:45:37 you're using a school about blowing things up to confuse things! variety! 05:45:55 did the Dig description change recently? 05:46:42 Hm, not recently. 06:01:33 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 06:03:09 SA wants sigmund buffed 06:06:39 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 06:26:05 back 06:26:31 What's wrong with MC as Hex/Air/Poi? 06:40:08 dpeg: what's wrong iwth MC as conj/air/pois? 06:41:52 due: s/Con/Hex/ nerfs MC and Con and buffs Hex, while being thematically acceptable. That's a pure win. 06:42:17 * due shrugs 06:42:21 I don'tt care enough either way :) 06:42:46 due: MC is clearly overpowered... something has to be done at some point. s/Con/Hex/ is a very mild mannered approach. 06:42:50 i have enough time to push my controversial change and crawl into bed :) 06:43:12 i don't think it makes sense losing conj for hex 06:43:16 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 06:43:21 03due * r1e9765f4aca5 10/crawl-ref/source/ (dat/descript/spells.txt spl-data.h): Shatter, Dig, Lee's and Maxwell's lose their Transmutiveness. 06:43:26 on that delightful note 06:43:29 goodnight folk ;) 06:43:32 i look forward to the screams. 06:44:14 nights due 06:44:34 Mu_: thematically, gameplay, balance? 06:44:50 Thematiccally it bothers me, but not that much. 06:44:54 * due sleeps. 06:44:54 purely from theme 06:45:08 would that also change the other clouds 06:45:57 upsy: no, those do damage 06:46:10 dpeg: poisonous? 06:46:45 not direct damage at least 06:46:53 buffing hex by shoehorning random spells into it doesn't seem like a very good way of doing it 06:47:05 i'd rather see meph nerfed by making spellpower more important 06:47:46 all of these are talked about for years, and nothing ever happens 06:47:49 1x1 cloud at bad spellpower. Hilarity ensues. 06:47:58 whereas school change would be simle.... anyway, I'll work 06:49:09 "Reduce the duration of the confusion from the clouds, then tie cloud duration to spell power. — TGW 2011-01-17 16:33 06:49:09 This is a brilliant idea and worth trying out. — evktalo 2011-01-18 07:01" 06:50:47 wow that's a long commit message for the earth spells 06:50:54 ^C: Clearing level map no longer clears map. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3356) by Prezombie 06:53:13 i don't like shatter bein easy to cast just because it ruins vaults :P 07:08:47 -!- edlothiol has left ##crawl-dev 07:09:21 -!- Kurper has joined ##crawl-dev 07:18:29 due: MC is clearly overpowered... something has to be done at some point. s/Con/Hex/ is a very mild mannered approach. <-- what? no it isn't 07:18:41 overpowered I mean 07:19:12 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:24:27 dpeg: replacing conj by hex would break consistency with other cloud spells 07:28:23 the classes that start with it have absolutely nothing to do with hexes, and hexes don't need an early game buff, the need and endgame one 07:29:20 casmith789: MC could afford to have a shorter confusion effect at low power. But we need to add spell power to the cloud struct to implement it (which isn't a huge deal). 07:32:39 Mu_: I shattered tar_mu recently, quite cathartic :) 07:34:10 haha. I'm going to send Mu postcards of myself by every vault of his (?) I devastate. 07:34:37 casmith789: MC is a cheap way to neutralise most OODs and uniques in the early game 07:34:55 dpeg: was that you who suggested removing the speed brand? 07:35:02 no it isn't 07:35:18 it is an expensive way to neutralise some of them 08:02:37 damn crawl 08:05:18 and, how high is the chance to have only one teleportation scroll in d5, no potions and otherwise only identify & remove curse, and no wand? and how high is the chance that escaping with it from duvessa makes you appear right beside Prince Ribbit? 08:14:43 while this wasn't my only tele scroll, I teleported away from Duvessa into Prince Ribbit this very game 08:22:33 lkid (L14 HEPa) (Lair:1) 08:22:54 lkid (L14 HEPa) (Lair:1) 08:23:13 lkid (L14 HEPa) (Lair:1) 08:24:01 !lm lkid type=crash -log 08:24:02 30. lkid, XL14 HEPa, T:52317 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/lkid/crash-lkid-20110131-142313.txt 08:26:36 So, ingame descriptions: "Hexes try to affect nearby beings in various ways, usually hostile." and "Charms provide you with a number of enhancing auras. A vast majority of these operate on the caster or a held item" 08:26:48 which school are brands in again? 08:26:56 haha 08:27:00 -!- valrus_ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:31:17 -!- valrus_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:32:06 03kilobyte * r64b85769089d 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/skills.txt: Update the school descriptions of Charms and Hexes. 08:32:58 -!- Moriasc has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101203075014]] 08:33:10 alright, and now sigmund with wand of polymorph? *sigh* 08:33:18 "Hexes try to affect bestow various enchantments on nearby things", i guess that should just be "try to bestow"? 08:33:25 the previous char had jessica on speed with wand of frost 08:33:40 -!- Adeon is now known as MaryPoppins 08:35:57 even with that change, I still can't comprehend why that are not considered an "enhancing aura" 08:38:26 it's a damaging aura 08:38:41 for those who meet the wrong end of the weapon 08:38:51 it enchances the damage of your weapon??? 08:39:20 so that's an enhancing aura then 08:39:31 ok now i'm confused too 08:40:27 hexes "bestowing enchantments on nearby things" is vague enough that you could argue just about anything fits it, i gues 08:40:35 guess* 09:10:27 -!- eith_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:12:27 minotaur picking up wands, rods, blowgun from laby loot and using it against you is expected, right? 09:13:13 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:14:41 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 09:16:45 -!- eith_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:22:36 back 09:24:12 * dpeg believes the game would be better off without the MC spell at all. The best thing about it is the name. 09:27:33 a lot of starting books rely on it unfortunately 09:28:31 -!- valrus_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:29:45 st_: could use the opportunity to reduce the number of backgrounds 09:32:33 -!- eith has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:32:59 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 09:35:39 Wizard, Conjurer (reaver), Air elementalist and venom mage have it. Prolly only Cj/Re could be disposed 09:36:02 Wizard could have confuse instead, not sure about AE/VM 09:39:41 if you create a MC-less branch to test the removal, please call it "airfreshener" 09:55:33 dpeg: the Daze status effect i added for zin could work for it. cloud + minor asphyxiation DOT while standing in it + brief Daze 09:55:42 much less powerful than confusion 09:56:27 MarvinPA: sure is cool that we chose something super vague and nonsensical after using a bad starting point huh 10:04:16 -!- Kurper has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:06:36 -!- Kurper has joined ##crawl-dev 10:15:15 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:18:32 03dolorous * r3113a6af4710 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/skills.txt: Add wording fix. 10:21:02 03dolorous * r7d5a31bddd5e 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/ (4 files in 2 dirs): Add whitespace fixes. 10:32:06 !seen greensnark 10:32:07 I last saw greensnark at Sat Jan 29 15:37:41 2011 UTC (2d 54m 26s ago) quitting with message Quit: Ciao. 10:32:22 wow, 2 days! I hope he isn't ill 10:53:54 -!- OG17 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:01:07 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:11:11 Haven't heard from the usability testing people yet, if any are listening it'd be cool to hear when I'll hear from you next :) 11:11:17 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:18:58 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 11:37:17 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 11:37:30 -!- edlothiol has left ##crawl-dev 11:37:37 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 11:57:05 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 12:11:24 03galehar * re5b26695fd68 10/crawl-ref/source/ (tilemcache.cc tileview.cc): Add wielded weapon to the training dummy tile. 12:11:25 03galehar * r0ab910c95d5c 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/spells.txt: Fix wording. 12:11:26 03galehar * r7fcd5deea3fd 10/crawl-ref/source/player-equip.cc: Fix message for using forbidden items ignoring armour and jewellery. 12:36:18 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 12:41:59 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 12:45:47 am I allowed to place an eldritch tentacle as a monster in a vault? The game seems to allow it (it even stays anchored where I put it), but I'm wondering if there's a rule against using it as an actual monster 12:50:45 well, it might break 12:51:12 seems to be killable and everything, at least by messing around with &M 12:51:13 i remember seeing it mentioned in the commit messages somewhere that it was supposed to work 12:51:20 from a technical viewpoint, any such breakage would probably be a bug 12:51:24 from a thematical viewpoint, I don't know. 12:51:25 specifically for vaults and stuff 12:51:37 ok, s/probably // then 12:51:55 basically, I want to have a blob of flesh with tentacles coming out of it, a fleshy orifice leading to the inside, with a giant orange brain and an abyssal rune in the middle 12:52:11 sounds fine to me, but then, I haven't really played lately :P 13:02:54 I'd hazard a guess that getting vaults like that was hoped for (: 13:03:27 Nabend! 13:03:45 hmm.. greensnark hiding? or seriously offline? 13:06:58 hasnt been around since friday or was it saturday 13:22:15 thanks 13:22:30 dgl on CDO is eating 76gb already.. need to do some cleanup 13:22:52 what where the files from the morgue folders that weren't needed? 13:22:55 Can see past door mimics (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3357) by MarvintheParanoidAndroid 13:23:58 Napkin: dgl? don't blame dgl! :) 13:24:06 hehe 13:24:16 dgl+game, of course ;) 13:26:02 Napkin: btw, i committed a patch to dgl svn yesterday that adds flags for admins, account bans and preventing passwd or email change. 13:26:13 arg 13:26:29 about a week after I decided to put the flags to some use here finally ;) 13:26:38 oh? 13:26:42 such as? 13:26:55 yeah, flag=1 people have wizard mode enabled :D 13:27:25 but i'll compensate somehow 13:27:26 ah. well, there's still plenty of bits unused. flag=1 is admin in svn now 13:27:41 i'll just add another column then, i guess 13:27:54 though you could just edit the enum before compiling :P 13:28:19 as little local changes to the code as possible :D 13:42:25 well, this eldritch abomination vault doesn't play nice with the abyss, it causes a lot of funny errors though 13:42:31 actually works fine outside of the abyss 14:03:38 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 14:03:53 !tell due the commit message for "Shatter, Dig, Lee's and Maxwell's lose their Transmutiveness" is great, thanks for writing all of that out! 14:03:54 RjY: OK, I'll let due know. 14:04:05 hey, cool 14:04:23 I'd keep dig as tmut for stalker's sake though 14:08:31 and does this mean tornado is being deconjurated too? 14:11:40 -!- OG17 has joined ##crawl-dev 14:13:36 doesn't seem like it 14:17:35 you conjure up a huge swirling mass of air. it's different from airstrike, which just makes the existing air twist around something and damage it. 14:19:15 arguably, tornado is air being made to twist around you and damage other things 14:20:16 the other thing is conjurations doesn't need even more spells 14:21:16 air/coj alone has freezing cloud, CBL, and chain lightning for high level spells, and coj already has two of the three other nukes 14:21:44 "people who want to deal damage with spells" shouldn't require "get conjurations" 14:22:00 why not 14:22:29 it's just a way of balancing spellcasters 14:23:04 how about balancing tornado then 14:23:22 am i right in thinking tornado can kill pretty much anything? it doesn't have any weak points, unlike shatter and flying monsters, say 14:24:14 i suppose i would expect it to be weaker against non-corporeals 14:24:20 doesn't affect air elementals 14:24:23 having everyone pay the conjurations tax means everyone is a conjurer 14:24:24 that's boring 14:24:57 it's weak point is it's not as good in enclosed spaces and you sort of have to get close/take a bit of damage 14:25:04 tornado as conj/air probably has the same issues as shatter used to 14:25:13 in that nobody will bother because all the lower level conj/air spells suck 14:28:15 Certain features can break the abyss when used in abyss vaults (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3358) by evilmike 14:31:28 78291 (L9 KoEn) ASSERT(item.props.exists(KNOWN_PROPS_KEY)) in 'artefact.cc' at line 1240 failed. (D:8) 14:32:31 the last thing is that tornado doesn't function like conjurations do 14:32:38 it's untargeted and los-range 14:33:06 which it shares in common with like chain lightning and nothing else 14:33:11 MarvinPA: do you not find your conjurers of different elements end up training air anyway because of all the useful utility spells it gives you? 14:33:25 less air than enchantments 14:33:29 nope, they get air and turn it off immediately 14:33:52 because you don't need it because spellpower for charms doesn't matter (this should be fixed :P) 14:33:55 (this is why multi-schooling everything is bad: nobody needs to care about air even if it does "have" good spells) 14:35:22 -!- syllogism has quit [] 14:36:49 oh, all right. i find i need at least some air for dmsl... but maybe i waste my time, never sure if dmsl is worth the extra investment 14:42:24 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 14:43:33 hi 14:48:35 galehar: Hi! 14:49:13 heh, you'll like this: people on SA are calling for sigmund to be buffed 14:49:24 I'll have a look. 14:49:25 well, two people 14:50:41 good idea. Let's replace throw flame by sticky flame 14:50:52 dpeg: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3332877&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=170#post387530169 14:51:11 grinder is the new sigmund 14:58:43 buff sigmund so that sigmund is the new sigmund 15:01:57 I think Sigmund is okay (read SA). Does he get fewer kills than he's supposed to? 15:02:50 it's a unique power creep 15:03:06 it's all the way through the game, not just early 15:03:45 yes, so sigmund needs to do some creeping 15:03:52 buffing scythes would help, of course :) 15:04:59 scaling back the power creep would be better than applying it to more uniques, surely 15:05:16 st_: we started moving uniques to a place where they're heard instead of steamrolled, good uniques do not go bad from this 15:05:45 the lower part of sigmund's depth is a bit excessiv 15:05:45 e 15:05:47 well, compare nikola and mara vs boris/frederick etc 15:05:50 what's grinder, like 3-5? 15:06:04 pikel vs edmund 15:06:04 sigmund is 2-7 afaik, and he's trivial at 7 15:06:15 that is true 15:06:32 easy to change these days :) 15:06:36 imo, make him 2-4 or so 15:06:46 that should do it 15:06:57 and promise that sigmund will never change :( 15:07:11 "Sigmund wields the Eternal Scythe." 15:07:33 "Please stand still, I am not done harvesting you." 15:07:44 !lg * killer=sigmund|grinder cv=0.8-a s=killer 15:07:45 904 games for * (killer=sigmund|grinder cv=0.8-a): 770x Sigmund, 126x Grinder, 2x Sigmund the tarantella, 1x Sigmund the iguana, 1x Sigmund the warg, 1x Sigmund the kenku, 1x Sigmund the human, 1x Sigmund the giant ant, 1x Sigmund the green rat 15:07:46 he has a belt full of adventurer skulls, perfect ammunition for bone shards imo 15:07:59 (awesome polymorphed sigmunds) 15:08:02 yes 15:08:19 !lg * v>=0.8 killer=uniq s=killer ?:num.n>50 15:08:20 3486 games for * (v>=0.8 killer=uniq): 770x Sigmund, 344x Terence, 260x Ijyb, 259x Crazy Yiuf, 193x Jessica, 186x Prince Ribbit, 164x Duvessa, 128x Blork the orc, 126x Grinder, 120x Edmund, 94x Pikel, 90x Menkaure, 86x Dowan, 54x Joseph 15:08:25 kenku haha 15:08:48 still over twice as many as the next guy 15:09:00 looks like sigmund's still quietly carrying on doing what he does best 15:09:04 wasn't there a race between Sigmund and some particular monster? 15:09:11 I checked recently and even after the grinder buff, sigmund gets more kills than grinder 15:09:31 I forget the exact date that happened, but checking the last week: 15:09:35 i wonder if people die to sigmund deliberately? :P 15:09:56 !lg * cv>=0.8 start>=20110124 killer=uniq s=killer 15:09:56 271 games for * (cv>=0.8 start>=20110124 killer=uniq): 49x Sigmund, 40x Grinder, 24x Terence, 17x Prince Ribbit, 17x Crazy Yiuf, 15x Ijyb, 13x Jessica, 13x Duvessa, 9x Pikel, 8x Blork the orc, 6x Rupert, 6x Edmund, 6x Dowan, 5x Menkaure, 5x Erolcha, 4x Purgy, 3x Joseph, 3x Snorg, 3x Sonja, 3x Gastronok, 2x Jozef, 2x Saint Roka, 2x Wiglaf, 1x Frederick, 1x Eustachio, 1x Ijyb the iguana, 1x Psyche, ... 15:10:13 players ritually sacrificing three characters to Sigmund, so they have better karma? :) 15:10:14 not many more though, and sigmund can show up a little earlier 15:11:41 yay for 3x gastronok 15:12:00 wargmund <3 15:12:39 !lg * cv>=0.8 start>=20110124 killer=uniq s=ikiller 15:12:40 "Tweak Grinder's spells, weapon. Afterthought: halve depth." (64f1ec2592b8cd34611bd9d4b18b43401136cce3), 2011-01-14 15:12:40 271 games for * (cv>=0.8 start>=20110124 killer=uniq): 49x Sigmund, 40x Grinder, 24x Terence, 17x Prince Ribbit, 17x Crazy Yiuf, 15x Ijyb, 13x Jessica, 13x Duvessa, 9x Pikel, 8x Blork the orc, 6x Rupert, 6x Edmund, 6x Dowan, 5x Menkaure, 5x Erolcha, 4x Purgy, 3x Joseph, 3x Snorg, 3x Sonja, 3x Gastronok, 2x Jozef, 2x Saint Roka, 2x Wiglaf, 1x Frederick, 1x Eustachio, 1x Ijyb the iguana, 1x Psyche, ... 15:12:44 MarvinPA: i think the unique power creep is actually good, way too many uniques were previously unique only in that they only spawned once 15:12:54 and otherwise totally unremarkable 15:13:09 well, those were fixed by removing them :P 15:13:10 it's fine if they are harder than they have been historically; it doesn't make the game much harder but makes it a lot more interesting 15:13:36 agreed, early relevant uniques are awesome 15:13:56 !lg * cv>=0.8 start>=20110124 ikiller=uniq s=ikiller 15:13:56 303 games for * (cv>=0.8 start>=20110124 ikiller=uniq): 49x Sigmund, 40x Grinder, 24x Terence, 17x Prince Ribbit, 17x Pikel, 17x Crazy Yiuf, 16x Xom, 15x Ijyb, 13x Jessica, 13x Duvessa, 8x Blork the orc, 6x Rupert, 6x Edmund, 6x Eustachio, 6x Dowan, 5x Menkaure, 5x Erolcha, 4x Purgy, 3x Sonja, 3x Snorg, 3x Gastronok, 3x Joseph, 2x Grum, 2x Saint Roka, 2x Wiglaf, 2x Jozef, 1x Mara, 1x giant spore, ... 15:14:17 16x Xom heh 15:14:37 dying to a bloke with a name is better than some anonymous kobold i reckon 15:14:45 These days we just need to demand that uniques are unique -- threat can be easily modified by giving or taking depth. 15:16:09 if sigmund needs to be more unique his spellbook could be removed from orc wizards 15:16:11 dpeg: earlier discussion resulted in an awesome idea for the lugonu unique: chaos knight of lugonu, riding a dragon, which breathes corruption breath. :D 15:17:10 sounds cool, but what is corruption breath? :) 15:19:10 corrupts the level 15:19:12 dpeg: like lugonu's Corruption, but localized to a small area so the player is less able to lure it around to strategically corrupt for free 15:19:57 and probably with some direct distortion-flavored (unresistible) damage, to make it feel more dragon-y 15:41:51 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:47:25 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:50:58 it would be very convenient, if the "You recognize" screen would show "scroll of ABC {tried,tried on item}" too 15:51:18 ABC = unidentified scroll 15:55:39 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 16:11:33 please add an exception to RNG to NOT have 2 open "electric eel in shallow water fun" levels after another? 16:11:39 it does say {tried on item} last i remember 16:11:55 oh, the recognize screen 16:12:02 no, you're right, that would be nice 16:13:54 "open level which is covered in eels" is my least favorite type 16:15:28 it's especially nice, if a tiny orc (and in d9 they are tiny) send you to the abyss after 2 hits in one turn - and you manage to escape the abyss, even after landing there with 15hp - and you land in the middle of eels, teleport, again, teleport, again, teleport, safe 16:15:54 and when you flee down and get to another of those? ctrl+q 16:16:54 TGWi: yeah those levels are awful 16:16:56 boooooo 16:17:01 Napkin: :) 16:17:03 not even hard, just unfun 16:17:13 no, boo at crawl 16:17:16 dpeg: what do you say? 16:17:26 i had the most ridiculous deaths today.. 16:17:30 I am pretty sure they are significantly harder. 16:17:34 Eifeltrampel glaubt schon, dass ich ihn verarsche 16:17:40 Napkin: Wieso denn? 16:18:12 eel levels are good practice creating exclusions 16:18:43 I don't mind difficulty but I don't think eel levels are fun 16:18:48 I can put to sleep flying monsters over deep water and they keep flying (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3359) by smock 16:18:53 What is fun? 16:19:00 I think having some open levels is good. 16:19:02 non-eel levels :D 16:19:11 s/eel/oklob/ ! 16:19:26 oepn levels are fine; treading around eels is unfun though 16:19:27 :( 16:19:43 one or two shots of a wand, and they're gone 16:19:50 don't be so helpless, folks 16:19:56 there are a ton of eels always 16:19:59 or read mapping and dive to the stairs 16:20:10 eels could use a small nerf to their accuracy, I think 16:20:10 yeah, unless your wand of draining needs 5 invocations for each eel 16:20:25 it is a little silly how little rMsl helps even 16:20:36 @??electric eel 16:20:36 electric eel (12;) | Speed: 10 | HD: 3 | Health: 9-24 | AC/EV: 1/15 | Flags: cold-blooded, !sil | Res: 06magic(12), 10elec++, 12drown | XP: 54 | Sp: b.electricity (3d6). 16:20:40 elliptic: I need your support, this channel sounds suspiciously like ##crawl atm :] 16:20:41 it's a product of hd, yeah? 16:20:51 let's fix that 16:20:52 -!- Napkin has left ##crawl-dev 16:21:21 dpeg: I don't particularly mind eels myself, but it does feel wrong that eel lightning is one of the most accurate attacks in the game 16:21:32 !lg * killer=eel 16:21:33 No games for * (killer=eel). 16:21:47 !lg * killer=~eel 16:21:50 !lg * killer=electrical eel 16:21:50 elliptic: I can relate to that 16:21:52 1854. Napkin the Ducker (L9 TrBe), worshipper of Trog, blasted by an electric eel (bolt of electricity) on D:10 on 2011-01-31, with 3940 points after 10807 turns and 1:53:39. 16:21:53 1078. AuditDaFed the Chopper (L4 DDBe), worshipper of Trog, blasted by an electrical eel (bolt of electricity) on D:6 on 2010-07-06, with 195 points after 412 turns and 0:04:04. 16:22:05 !lg * killer=electric eel 16:22:05 765. Napkin the Ducker (L9 TrBe), worshipper of Trog, blasted by an electric eel (bolt of electricity) on D:10 on 2011-01-31, with 3940 points after 10807 turns and 1:53:39. 16:22:06 oh right, they got renamed 16:22:33 elliptic: how's the accuracy determined? 16:22:55 no idea, but from experience I know it is really high 16:23:02 compared with a centaur, say 16:23:04 I don't mind eels so much as I mind the eel levels, probably because they like clumping up and shooting all at once and it's a pain to shoot at them, flee, rest, and repeat (and it's a pain to exclude all squares to which they could venture) 16:23:17 yeah, what monqy said 16:23:19 !lg * killer=electric eel cv>=0.7 s=xl 16:23:20 475 games for * (killer=electric eel cv>=0.7): 111x 10, 105x 9, 72x 11, 69x 8, 30x 12, 28x 7, 16x 13, 11x 6, 8x 2, 6x 5, 6x 14, 4x 15, 3x 3, 2x 16, 2x 1, 1x 19, 1x 4 16:23:32 it's not fun to explore around every pool on an open level 16:23:33 D:3 :O 16:23:41 D:1 :) 16:23:44 <3 old entry vaults 16:23:45 wasn't there a bug? 16:23:53 I remember there being a bug about that 16:23:57 that's probably a naughty entry vault 16:24:11 !lg * killer=electric eel cv>=0.8 s=place 16:24:11 64 games for * (killer=electric eel cv>=0.8): 13x D:6, 13x D:9, 10x D:8, 8x D:10, 4x D:12, 4x D:7, 3x D:11, 2x Lair:1, 1x Lair:6, 1x D:13, 1x D:14, 1x Lair:4, 1x Lair:8, 1x Hive:2, 1x Lair:3 16:24:32 no eel deaths before d:6 in current versions at least 16:25:33 cao isn't on .8 though, is it? 16:25:37 no 16:25:41 Zannick: and cao isn't 0.7-a 16:25:51 pretty sure cv>=0.7 includes 0.7-a 16:25:55 could be wrong though 16:26:10 !lg * cv>=0.7 s=cv 16:26:11 !lg * cv>=0.7 cv=0.7-a 16:26:12 225770 games for * (cv>=0.7): 141446x 0.7, 47608x 0.8-a, 36716x 0.7-a 16:26:12 36716. Relapso the Skirmisher (L4 HECK), worshipper of Xom, quit the game on D:4 on 2011-01-07, with 340 points after 2874 turns and 0:25:18. 16:26:20 ah 16:26:46 !lg * killer=electric eel cv>0.7-a s=place 16:26:47 64 games for * (killer=electric eel cv>0.7-a): 13x D:6, 13x D:9, 10x D:8, 8x D:10, 4x D:12, 4x D:7, 3x D:11, 2x Lair:1, 1x Lair:6, 1x D:13, 1x D:14, 1x Lair:4, 1x Lair:8, 1x Hive:2, 1x Lair:3 16:26:52 !lg * killer=electric eel cv=0.7 s=place 16:26:52 329 games for * (killer=electric eel cv=0.7): 59x D:10, 57x D:9, 36x D:6, 33x D:8, 28x D:11, 22x D:7, 17x D:12, 15x Lair:1, 10x Lair:2, 7x Lair:3, 7x D:13, 6x Lair:5, 5x Lair:4, 5x Hive:2, 4x Lair:6, 4x D:14, 3x D:15, 3x Lair:7, 3x Swamp:2, 1x D:16, 1x Swamp:4, 1x D:23, 1x Snake:1, 1x Swamp:5 16:26:58 monqy: that's the same as my search 16:27:01 oh right 16:27:07 I forgot to include 0.7 16:27:12 also looks like 0.7 is fine 16:27:21 at least, if d:6 eels are fine 16:27:32 13 kills is not outrageous 16:27:40 13 for 0.8 16:27:45 36 for 0.7 16:27:56 again, difficulty's not the concern 16:28:15 !lg * killer=electric eel cv=0.7 place=d:6 s=xl 16:28:15 36 games for * (killer=electric eel cv=0.7 place=d:6): 13x 8, 13x 7, 6x 6, 3x 9, 1x 2 16:28:36 people don't die to eels much because they tend to stay put; levels covered in monsters that severely damage you if you approach them, but can't chase after you aren't fun to explore 16:28:56 TGWi: so leave the level if you cannot shoot 16:28:58 dpeg: it looks like electric eel accuracy is set to 50, which is pretty ridiculous 16:29:35 What's a good value, elliptic? 16:30:00 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: disconnect] 16:30:14 I don't really know what accuracy values mean... I'm looking at other monsters with special ranged attacks and they are all far lower 16:30:24 manticore is 14, for instance 16:30:43 !tell greensnark I am pressurised into nerfing electric eels. Would reducing accuracy (currently 50) be fine? 16:30:44 dpeg: OK, I'll let greensnark know. 16:31:02 pushing the baton :) 16:31:19 eels aren't the problem, the layout is 16:31:20 imo 16:32:23 open levels ==> different style/tactics etc. -- this is good 16:32:43 open levels are fine 16:32:45 notice I'm not whining about the octagon 16:32:54 <3 octagon 16:33:32 shrug 16:33:51 maybe oklob levels would be better, interface-wise (at least they auto-exclude) 16:34:06 50? wow 16:34:24 open levels are fine, eels are fine 16:34:30 just not open levels with eels 16:34:45 in closed levels they're a lot less hassle (but still dangerous) 16:34:52 bolt bouncing eels 16:34:54 their acc is probably too high still 16:35:00 if it could be halved and still be higher than most stuff 16:35:06 exactly, yay boltbouncing 16:36:32 evening 16:36:32 due: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 16:36:35 !messages 16:36:35 (1/1) RjY said (2h 32m 41s ago): the commit message for "Shatter, Dig, Lee's and Maxwell's lose their Transmutiveness" is great, thanks for writing all of that out! 16:36:43 Skan (L9 HuWn) (D:7) 16:37:09 !tell RjY A lot of my commit messages are like that :) It's usually only when I'm rushed for time or I think something isn't going to be particularly contentious that I keep them shorter. 16:37:09 due: OK, I'll let RjY know. 16:37:12 do eels actually kill people, it always seems like more of a nuisance than anything else 16:37:31 yes 16:37:34 and less accurate eels wouldn't make open eel levels any more or less of a nuisance than they are 16:37:50 due: Hi! 16:37:51 eels usually kill careless/cocky/unlucky people 16:38:06 like most other things 16:38:07 !lg * ikiller=electric eel 16:38:08 765. Napkin the Ducker (L9 TrBe), worshipper of Trog, blasted by an electric eel (bolt of electricity) on D:10 on 2011-01-31, with 3940 points after 10807 turns and 1:53:39. 16:38:17 !lg * ikiller=electric eel cv=~0.8 16:38:18 64. Elynae the Cleaver (L9 HOFi), worshipper of Okawaru, blasted by an electric eel (bolt of electricity) on D:6 on 2011-01-28, with 2142 points after 8134 turns and 0:19:37. 16:38:24 Only 64, which is surprising. 16:38:32 You just have to be *really* careful around them. 16:38:34 eels underperform! 16:38:40 dpeg: How did my commit from last night go down? 16:38:41 =[ 16:38:43 even hill giants have twice that 16:38:50 !lg * lvl>=6 cv>=0.8 s=ikiller 16:38:50 4349 games for * (lvl>=6 cv>=0.8): 371x an orc warrior, 316x , 205x an orc priest, 202x a centaur, 133x an ogre, 114x a hill giant, 107x an orc wizard, 106x a killer bee, 103x an orc, 75x a troll, 60x an unseen horror, 59x an electric eel, 59x a wight, 51x Joseph, 50x a big kobold, 46x an ice beast, 45x a centaur warrior, 45x a yak, 42x an orc knight, 40x Erolcha, 35x a cyclops, 35x Grum, 35x Grin... 16:38:51 hill giants can follow you 16:38:53 due: folks here complain about "unfun", but I am not sure we should buy that 16:38:54 eels can't 16:38:58 stationary monsters are inherently unimpressive 16:39:07 due: fine, apart from galehar's objection 16:39:09 Even warrior statues? =p 16:39:14 they are in the top dozen killers of people at >=D:6 16:39:25 (which is when they start to generate) 16:40:07 !lg * lvl<6 cv>=0.8 ikiller=electric eel s=place 16:40:07 5 games for * (lvl<6 cv>=0.8 ikiller=electric eel): 2x Lair:1, 1x Lair:3, 1x Lair:4, 1x Hive:2 16:40:16 dpeg: which I will deal with later. Liquefaction is a very specific mechanism based on actual liquefaction :) 16:40:32 due: what about dig for st? 16:40:33 !lg * lvl>=6 cv>=0.8 place=D s=ikiller 16:40:33 3741 games for * (lvl>=6 cv>=0.8 place=D): 317x an orc warrior, 265x , 205x an orc priest, 202x a centaur, 133x an ogre, 114x a hill giant, 107x an orc wizard, 106x a killer bee, 92x an orc, 75x a troll, 60x an unseen horror, 59x a wight, 57x an electric eel, 51x Joseph, 50x a big kobold, 45x an ice beast, 44x a centaur warrior, 44x a yak, 40x Erolcha, 35x Grum, 35x a cyclops, 35x Grinder, 32x gia... 16:40:42 that spell should probably be replaced anyway 16:40:48 so ignore that question 16:40:55 Dig is pretty boring as-is. 16:41:04 due: there was an interesting discussion about Liquefication on SA... comments ranged between "useless" and "overpowered". 16:41:22 I am not happy with Dig either. 16:41:41 due: by the way, I agree about making sandblast pure earth 16:41:49 it should really just slow monster movespeed, actual slow doesn't make sense 16:42:22 also dig is great and getting rid of it would make summoners even less active 16:42:23 dpeg: Yes, I was uncertain if the mechanism would find any use. 16:42:43 due: then it's worth reading the SA bits 16:42:47 elliptic: Yes, also agree. I was just tired and didn't feel like making the commit. 16:42:51 dpeg: I'll check out out tonight. 16:43:20 OG17: Dig will remain, at the very least the mechanism in the wand will be identical to the current mechanism. I just think there must be other interesting ways to reimplement it. 16:43:41 evilmike: How are you placing eldritch tentacles in a vault? 16:43:57 evocable for actual cost 16:44:17 you can't use a wand like you do the spell, and I'm not sure how it's boring - it's the only effect of its kind 16:44:36 also how are people going to train LRD if sandblast isn't tmut? 16:44:43 or at least undead races 16:44:51 Fulsome? 16:45:00 LRD isn't Transmutation any more. 16:45:03 oh, right 16:45:10 ??geomancy 16:45:10 book of geomancy[1/1]: Spells: Sandblast, Stoneskin, Passwall, Stone Arrow, Summon Elemental, Lee's Rapid Deconstruction 16:45:24 stoneskin, passwall are the only tmut in there now? 16:45:30 Yes. 16:45:36 yeah, that's not a problem 16:46:05 Skan (L8 HuWn) (D:7) 16:46:07 the commit message for "Shatter, Dig, Lee's and Maxwell's lose their Transmutiveness" <-- wait, what? 16:46:23 limned 16:46:39 !learn edit book_of_geomancy s/Summon Elemental/Summon Elemental (removed for petrify in 0.8)/ 16:46:40 book of geomancy[1/1]: Spells: Sandblast, Stoneskin, Passwall, Stone Arrow, Summon Elemental (removed for petrify in 0.8), Lee's Rapid Deconstruction 16:46:42 out of those, dig seems the most tmut-like, unless its flavour changed again 16:46:48 !tell evilmike Can't reply to the tracker from work, but: placing eldritch tentacles like that in vaults might be an issue. The spell that summons them does some specific set-up with timers and markers, and without that, they might be problematic. 16:46:48 due: OK, I'll let evilmike know. 16:47:01 monqy: Yes, thinking about it now I'm inclined to give Dig back Tmut and give Leda's Tmut as well. 16:47:02 TGWi: limned <3 16:47:22 the new dig flavor is pretty tmut what with the liquifying 16:47:24 liquefaction as dual-school level 6 seems not worth the effort 16:47:36 especially with tmut not being worth training on earth conjurers now 16:47:41 though that message could change 16:47:54 it's gonna feel pretty weird for dig/leda's to be earth/tmut, but LRD not 16:48:06 what's LRD transmuting? 16:48:15 walls into explosions 16:48:16 rock, into explosions 16:48:22 * Eronarn hi5s monqy 16:48:46 compare explosions to turning into a spider 16:48:53 Eronarn: Um, no. 16:48:57 due: liquefaction isn't that useful already at L6, so at least make it L5 if you are going to make it dual-school 16:48:57 LRD deconstructs the walls, liquefaction turns floor into liquidy floor i guess 16:48:57 an exploding spider 16:49:03 (add this) 16:49:04 OG17: compare explosions to making potions explode or making poison explode sounds pretty tmut-y to me 16:49:04 hell yes 16:49:06 LRD makes the wall explode. 16:49:28 Evaporation being Tmut is iffy in my opinion. 16:49:42 both of those spells are silly, also poison only explodes because it's being transmuted 16:49:42 if we want to make tmut not about explosions that's fine, i favor the alchemy school proposal, but if evap/ignite pois can be tmuts LRD doesn't have much of a reason flavor-wise to not be one 16:49:45 you could say it deconstructs the wall 16:49:46 rapidly 16:49:57 It breaks the wall into tiny pieces. 16:50:02 It does not *transmute* the wall into tiny pieces. 16:50:15 evap has no reason to be tmut yeah 16:50:25 tm, st 16:50:29 Evap should lose Tmut, probably. I'll have to think about it. 16:50:40 it does until you decided to change it! :P and since we're having a discussion about why you did... 16:50:42 don't do that without replacement spells, please 16:50:47 Ignite Poison transmutes the poison into fire. 16:50:55 TGWi: Replacement spells for what? 16:51:03 tm and st can keep evaporate though? 16:51:05 how does that make any more sense than transmuting walls into explosions 16:51:08 transmuter level 1-2 stuff 16:51:08 (it doesn't) 16:51:12 Skan (L8 HuWn) (D:7) 16:51:13 Fulsome Distillation. 16:51:30 fulsome doesn't actually do anything (especially without evap in that book) 16:51:31 Eronarn: I'm just examining the thought behind Ignire Poison. 16:51:39 TGWi: They will not lose Evaporation. 16:51:47 having the main transmuter spell not be tmut would be somewhat odd 16:51:57 yeah, I don't like that much 16:52:01 having it be tmut is also odd 16:52:04 Then I'll change the flavour of the spell. 16:52:16 arguably it's transmuting the potion 16:52:19 the alchemy change would actually work pretty well 16:52:22 into a hot potion 16:52:24 considering random beneficial potions give you clouds 16:52:29 "This spell uses the element of fire to transmute it into a cloud." 16:52:33 fulsome = tmut/nec, evap = alchemy/fire, spider form = alchemy/tmut 16:52:35 sure, the potion explodes, but there's also obvious transmutation 16:52:39 ??evaporate[2] 16:52:40 evaporate[2/4]: * means duration boost, chances even unless noted as #x. - (Strong*) poison: poison. Degeneration(*): poison/miasma. Decay(*): miasma. Paralysis(*)/slowing/confusion: mephitic cloud. Water/porridge: steam. (Coagulated) blood: mephitic/flame/steam. Berserk: flame/steam. Mutation/gain X/exp/magic (why?!): flame/freezing/poison/miasma/random(2x). 16:52:46 pretty sure no one cares about alchemy 16:53:01 Alchemy would be nice but we did Ench split so no Alchemy in 0.8. 16:53:02 ??evaporate[3] 16:53:02 evaporate[3/4]: All other potions: flame/mephitic/freezing/poison/random/colored_fog(3x)/steam(5x). "Random" means that each square of the cloud is randomly chosen from all(?) of the game's cloud types. 16:53:03 and then ignite pois would be fire/alchemy which would make it actually the same school as poison magic 16:53:04 Anyway, I need to go back to woooork 16:53:10 which would be awesome 16:53:23 Rest assured, I will resolve all issues when I return this evening! 16:53:29 healing -> freezing vapour when evaporated is some pretty clear magic 16:53:42 one could say the potion is being transmuted into a cloud :P 16:53:48 does spell power increase evaporate cloud duration? 16:53:48 Evap should change flavour and stay Tmut, though. 16:53:49 or more? 16:53:53 For Homunculus. 16:53:59 why does it need to change flavor 16:53:59 perhaps rename it 16:54:04 not that a little nerf would be out of order anyway 16:54:07 monqy: That's what I was thinking. 16:54:25 The mechanism of potion->cloud + placement can be flavoured in a variety of ways. 16:54:29 Anyay really gone now 16:54:31 * due gone 16:54:31 name change would be suitable 16:54:37 or to phrase it another way: why are we changing stuff just to make it fit with a random commit 16:54:47 maybe magic potions turn into clouds of magic stuff 16:54:50 also magic 16:55:17 Eronarn: because it's not just a random commit and you're the one making a fuss about it. :p 16:55:26 Eronarn: go read the fucking commit message, I spent an hour writing it. 16:55:41 blood -> meph cloud seems like some pretty clear transmutation's going on 16:55:49 right 16:55:59 unless it's magic blood 16:56:03 maybe it is! 16:56:21 MarvinPA: blood should = spray blood everywhere 16:56:26 but no cloud 16:56:44 evaporated blood 16:56:58 (hey, that'd maybe be a good way to balance the spell: it starts off making NO clouds and just splashing people in the vicinity with a single hit of the effect) 16:57:36 I'd be happy if you could just throw bad potions and hit one thing 16:57:43 "spell to throw potions" is weird 16:57:55 you could keep it around to make clouds though 17:03:31 OG17: nethackism 17:03:55 how 17:06:08 what do you mean how 17:06:30 how is "bad potions do bad things" a nethackism 17:06:43 there's nothing obscure or unintuitive about that 17:07:05 bad potions do bad things when you drink them 17:07:11 guess you'd be able to throw good potions too but whatever 17:07:17 you don't get drunk if you splash yourself in the face with alcohol 17:07:25 that might cause problems, maybe stick to bad 17:07:31 78291 (L9 KoEn) ASSERT(item.props.exists(KNOWN_PROPS_KEY)) in 'artefact.cc' at line 1240 failed. (D:8) 17:07:39 there's a ton of stuff that you just need to touch to get poisoned etc from 17:07:46 you're already adding in non-obvious inconsistencies 17:07:51 why can i get poisoned but not healed 17:07:53 if i splash you in the face with poison you'll be fine 17:08:00 TGWi: for many poisons yes actually 17:08:06 what about the other poisons 17:08:17 which poisons? 17:08:25 there are a lot of things that just need skin contact but there are also a lot of things that do nothing from skin contact 17:08:38 what about getting them into your eyes, mouth etc 17:08:50 so how about we say that crawl potions are among the things that just need skin contact 17:08:59 TGWi: mucous membranes are different from skin 17:09:09 that's why cobras spit at your eyes dontcha know 17:09:36 brb, finding a cobra to make sure 17:09:43 but an example would be early chemical weapons 17:10:08 they were inhaled agents and might not be nice to your skin but they didn't kill you just from skin contact 17:10:56 good potions would probably be fine since they're limited and effects are duplicated with wands and needles 17:11:00 this is a silly conversation anyways: it is more interesting if you need a spell to make use of bad potions, the spell just happens to be too good 17:11:11 actually I'm not sure what berserk needles to to allies but whatever it'd be the same 17:11:38 it's not interesting because it makes bad potions literally useless for the majority of characters 17:11:46 also monsters 17:11:47 due are you around 17:11:59 think he's gone 17:12:13 he left like five times 17:13:18 how cool would it be to have a hydra with might 17:13:41 78291 (L9 KoEn) ASSERT(item.props.exists(KNOWN_PROPS_KEY)) in 'artefact.cc' at line 1240 failed. (D:8) 17:14:05 Crash on entering book shop (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3360) by 78291 17:14:27 'cool' 17:14:46 also what's wrong with bad potions being literally useless for most characters 17:15:00 like what? 17:15:00 i mean i could see a few more ways to make use of them but i don't think there is a strong need to let every character use them eitehr 17:17:05 "every character" doesn't have fulsome and/or doesn't want to carry a bunch of potions around but there's no reason bad potions couldn't be a basic resource like good potions and everything else 17:17:59 otherwise you ID or use them once and they might as well not exist afterwards 17:18:33 here is a reason: adding more basic resources may not actually improve the game 17:18:59 also, lol @ you saying that after lobbying for keeping paper scrolls in the game just for the ID game factor 17:19:33 might give you a few more options on the D:1-4 bit i guess 17:19:33 bad potions would be unchanged in that regard but okay 17:20:10 one scroll type being useless is sort of different from an entire set of potions being useless 17:22:08 we could probably axe some potions, sure 17:22:25 stuff like strong poison or degen don't really add much to the game 17:22:49 degen is cool for evap 17:22:59 actually so is s.poison ;p 17:23:05 para and shit are junk though 17:23:27 this whole discussion started from evap nerf though so 17:23:29 para is genuinely awful to ID in combat 17:23:36 degen evap is awful, it encourages kiting until you get miasma 17:23:42 degen hasn't scared me before 17:23:45 should just be like decay in the first place 17:23:52 i haven't quaff ID'd a single potion since like .5.2 so 17:24:15 that's because para exists 17:24:17 degen owns what you tolkien about 17:24:29 i think conf + pois + slow + para + decay is enough bad potions to make ID interesting 17:24:37 it only matters early game anyways 17:24:55 and evap doesn't need ten million kinds of potions 17:25:12 slow is the other junk potion 17:25:25 having less bad potions doesn't do anything to make bad potions more useful and they all have decent flavor or mechanics 17:25:46 heh heh potion flavour 17:25:50 and evap doesn't really need to care about potions that fulsome doesn't make 17:25:58 oh wow 17:26:13 i disagree, degen is the same flavor as decay and the mechanics aren't different in an intresting way 17:26:18 same with strong poison 17:26:28 strong poison should get changed 17:26:32 strong poison is lame yeah 17:26:37 idea: healing only removes some amount of poison 17:26:39 degen is cool though 17:26:49 degen and strong poison are cool???? 17:26:53 TGWi: that'd be cool if !hw also removed poison (and more of it) 17:26:58 no 17:27:05 I think one idea is to have very rare, bad potions, in line with very rare, good potions. 17:27:06 strong poison is worse than poison for evaporation anyway because it makes a new stack which is annoying 17:27:17 dpeg: the problem with that is that then people won't find them before they have ID scrolls 17:27:21 dpeg: decay is pretty good in that role (although healing gets rid of the whole thing so I'm not sure) 17:27:22 kind of pointless 17:27:38 it is an idiot trap for people who are quaff IDing potions on d15, i guess 17:27:49 having antiexp potions or whatever would be neat but eronarn's right 17:27:50 the only time you quaff ID is really early if you're in trouble to attempt to save yourself 17:27:52 TGWi: mutation isn't strictly bad but 17:28:05 dpeg: reducing identification-related scroll generation around lair would be a good step 17:28:24 TGWi: convince people to go ash? 17:28:29 TGWi: yes, probably 17:28:38 casmith789: to make them think about use 17:28:47 I think about use 17:29:11 Maps: Placing corpses/skeletons/chunks doesn't work as advertised (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3361) by jpeg 17:29:15 Mu_: hi 17:29:16 Although I also have to say that my games don't complain about ?id overabundance. 17:29:16 "do I have spare ID scrolls -- yes -- use on potion; no -- drop potion in stash" 17:29:42 casmith789: yes, this 17:29:54 though you can really just drink stuff once you have the big ones IDed 17:30:13 you can drink everything once you have cure mut and mut IDd I guess 17:30:19 due: hypothetically i wanna give the hellbinder/cloud mage a custom quote (i don't but let's pretend). would it be possible to use the new quote file or does their random name mess that up 17:32:36 so did any stuff get moved into tmut with this change or is it now just evap + forms + ignite 17:33:36 there's the other earth stuff and I think some hexes 17:33:51 poly other 17:33:51 Mu_: the random names fuck it up, you'll need to use the monster props marker and put the quote in that 17:33:53 nec stuff 17:33:53 it's not like the school's hurting 17:34:14 OG17: it was already a bad school if you didn't want to do forms for whatever reason 17:34:35 due: ok. they still don't have descriptions you see, and i noticed when someone examined them earlier they don't even have teh basic wizard descriptions any more for some reason. 17:34:37 now i don't think it has anything worth using that isn't a form or evap 17:34:42 I thought the entire school was forms 17:34:44 forms alone would be enough to support it 17:34:45 petrify, poly other, cigotuvi's suck 17:34:48 Mu_: the latter would be my fault, :)) 17:35:17 ;p 17:35:33 OG17: forms are cool and all but i don't think tmut should be all forms all the time any more than tloc is all blinking all the time 17:36:08 78291 (L11 KoEn) ASSERT(item.props.exists(KNOWN_PROPS_KEY)) in 'artefact.cc' at line 1240 failed. (D:11) 17:36:19 there's other stuff, you just don't like it 17:36:28 also fire is all fire all the time etc 17:37:08 whoa 17:37:23 poly other and cigotuvi's are shit, it's not a matter of not liking them, they are just not good spells 17:37:28 that's an odd assertion 17:37:29 make regen and sublimation necro/tmut~ 17:37:56 sublimation now turns chunks into potions of magic 17:37:57 i'm fine with fire being very one-dimensional though it also has some problems in this area, but a school about changing form definitely feels like it should be versatile 17:38:27 Mu_: this is interesting 17:38:33 flaming aura, dragonform and ring of flames are really the same idea 17:38:37 i turns life energy into magic energy :p 17:38:38 forms are limited and poly/cigotuvi's are bad but this isn't a problem with the school 17:38:51 poly other and cigotuvi's are good for rupert farming 17:39:05 though really poly other is good if you know how to game the HD mechanic 17:39:07 OG17: how is that not a problem with the school 17:39:20 monqy: if you mean the XP-increasing use of it, lol 17:39:22 or want to turn something into something that can't cast spells or use equipment 17:39:40 Eronarn: stuff like boggarts -> orcs 17:39:52 Eronarn: but you could just as easily use a wand if you're confining yourself to boggarts 17:39:57 it's just that individual spells are weak or boring or whatever 17:40:09 -!- Gnash has joined ##crawl-dev 17:40:25 Eronarn: but yes there's also always the xp farming 17:40:27 moving the old earth tmut stuff out doesn't affect anything 17:40:45 well it isn't on cdo so let's see 17:41:24 OG17: perhaps you haven't thought of this but the spells in a school are one of the major factors determining the nature of that school 17:41:27 crazy, i know 17:42:06 monqy: lrd would make boggarts => dead though (really, tons of things kill boggarts basically instantly) 17:42:13 yeah 17:42:33 it's not so much that you can't use poly for things but that there are very few situations where poly is even competitive with another option never mind actually better 17:44:08 there could be an enslavement style: using enslaved on an already enslaved monster always works 17:44:13 it'd be neat if there was a poly spell that was more like porkalator and less like dragonator 17:44:30 OG17: cigotuvi's lol 17:44:32 cigo's degen 17:44:55 was thinking more of a temporary thing 17:45:15 dpeg: imo i'd rather see a 'sustain' mechanic than a recasting one, recasting is obnoxious esp. since you can't see when durations are about to end 17:46:21 due: how do i give a monster multiple spellbooks again (update syntax.txt! :P) 17:46:38 Mu_: just define multiple spells: 17:46:53 oh ok 17:47:22 OG17: also, you'd really suggest porkalator-like and not mention the obvious choice? 17:47:31 Shrink Ray 17:48:12 great combo with dragonform, of course 17:48:34 Eronarn: I was about wand use (for enslave). You would find something small, enslave, and poly it. 17:48:55 if size meant anything, yeah 17:49:27 OG17: it'd presumably shrink their damage but boost their EV 17:49:41 and make them fall out of unusable gear 17:50:05 wait, enslave always succeeds on an enslaved monster? 17:50:07 that's neat 17:50:09 no 17:50:11 oh 17:50:46 dpeg: repetitive polying a monster is bad imo 17:50:59 i think we should store the starting HD and deviate +/- from that, not +/- the current HD 17:51:03 Eronarn: i think recasting is an interface thing more than a gameplay thing, i think if you could toggle a spell and have the interface recast it for you automatically unless you have too little magic or tension is too high (in which case it asks you first) 17:51:14 repeated poly is fun just to see what you end up with 17:51:55 RjY: or you could just have it dedicate some of your max MP to keeping the spell active instead of making a fiddly auto-recast system 17:52:15 staticish HD would be sort of tedious too even if it'd be a lot more attractive to actually use 17:52:41 Eronarn: heh i once suggested the same thing, having spells that you cast them once and they remove X maximum magic points until you turn them off again, but i was told it would be overpowered 17:52:43 OG17: could bump up the variance on it more if you locked down the total range 17:52:54 RjY: depends entirely on what those spells are 17:53:21 heck, we have delayed fireball that does that for a cost of *0* MP 17:53:24 03Mu * r2b78d2554a67 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/float.des: Properly introduce Gretell to ancient champions 17:53:25 nobody calls that overpowered 17:53:36 it might have been on rgrm. but i know for sure i was thinking about lichform when i came up with the idea 17:53:43 those spells are probably already overpowered considering keeping a buff up doesn't take much 17:54:19 it would be a bad idea for lichform but not a horrible idea considering anyone who can cast lichform doesn't let it lapse anyways by using channeling 17:54:42 eronarn with that zin recite grammar thing I'm not sure if it's actually broken "a lot" but I did notice it a bunch of times watching marvin the other day 17:55:01 maybe there's a build up now 17:55:06 OG17: i will go review the strings at some point, there were definitely errors i noticed consistently through development 17:55:17 so there are probably some more still there 17:56:04 wrt sustain buffs bad examples would be stuff like swiftness or haste (you would always want these activated on all characters) 17:56:15 permaswiftness+permaflight for 6 max MP would be overpowered ;-) 17:56:22 a good example: L4-6 tmut spell that gives you spikes, like the DS mutation 17:56:23 hell i'd take that for 12 17:56:50 nobody would cast it if it were a normal buff spell but they may well give up 6 max MP to have it active 17:57:26 why wouldn't they cast it as a buff 17:57:27 i think they would. you'd just cast it before stuff starts hitting you. like ozo's armour 17:57:33 It's a nifty idea (permanent buffs) but there are some issues. For example, success is trivialised. 17:57:40 and taking off armor and shields to cast e 17:57:41 yeah 17:57:58 spikes aren't that strong 17:58:16 a pure tmuter might cast it but it'd be a quite weak spell at >L2 17:58:27 they're stronger than no spikes, especially for a character that doesn't depend on MP 17:58:54 dpeg: imo that's fine as long as power still matters 17:59:08 Eronarn: well, heavy armour 17:59:37 you could scale the MMP cost to somewhat imitate the normal cost of having the buff running 17:59:41 TGWi: i don't actually see a problem with someone in heavy armor taking it off sometimes 17:59:46 that'd work, yeah 17:59:56 including spell success and duration 18:00:00 stripping down and buffing up to cast permanent-effect spells is sort of silly 18:00:06 it's basically a mutation on demand 18:00:27 03j-p-e-g * rfe2ce1601062 10/crawl-ref/source/artefact.cc: Fix #3360: Crash on entering book shops as a good god follower. 18:00:41 (but permanent) 18:00:44 OG17: it's fine if you only have to do it once every few stash trips or whatever and if the costs are high enough to make it not a completely obvious choice 18:00:56 I actually sort of like that, it would make spell power more relevant for charms 18:01:00 like, Insulation at 4 MP, everyone would want to use it 18:01:08 one approach is that the spells just goes out if you're success drops (e.g. you unwield Wizardry, or wear a heavy armour), but as I said, it's not trivial 18:01:41 spell power can be relevant with temporary buffs 18:01:59 haste is messy but the others should be fine 18:02:03 the only problem I see is that the fair cost of a permanent buff would exceed what a character would have 18:02:24 rmsl for 5 MMP might be fair but nobody at xl 2 could use that 18:02:24 one approach that we could take with permabuffs: they always succeed, but take many turns to cast (like memorizing), so you can't turn them on easily during a fight but have to make the choice in advance to lose your max MP 18:02:55 this is on the wiki somewhere 18:02:56 I'll find it 18:03:00 this might be a neat god gimmick 18:03:34 idea: start the MMP cost at 1 and scale up per turn 18:04:02 and then by the time you would start having to recast, it plateaus at the maximum 18:04:11 due: "A Ceall the Cloud Mage" D: 18:04:13 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:magic:power_duration is one page at least 18:04:15 i don't think you would change haste to be a permanent effect 18:04:27 there's also the option of having spells with multi casting modes: say, you can cast it as a short term buff or a permanent one 18:04:42 or delayed fireball like 'add on' spells 18:04:46 and automatically cancel the buff if your mmp hits zero 18:04:53 for what it's worth, I dislike delayed fireball 18:05:11 monqy: i think it is way ahead of its time, design-wise 18:05:11 unless it times out or something 18:05:14 i don't think you'd change any buff that causes glow to be a permanent one 18:05:18 it definitely sticks out in current crawl 18:05:19 Mu_: I know 18:05:26 but i could see something with those mechanics being interesting 18:05:27 heh imagine if berserker rage was a permabuff ;-) 18:05:41 rjy, meant haste shouldn't become faster with more power 18:05:50 oh i see, sorry 18:05:57 RjY: most buffs shouldn't be permanent ones. some candidates might be... stoneskin, rmsl 18:06:01 Eronarn: as long as it isn't optimal to put on wizardry & |energy & cast it after every fight such as to have a free fireball 18:06:15 most buffs should be but some obviously shouldn't 18:06:21 i.e. the glowy ones and berserk 18:06:23 that's ridiculous though, you're getting a single fireball out of it 18:06:31 isn't comparable to a buff 18:06:32 monqy: right yes that's bad, but that is because of the high level of the spell imo 18:06:33 OG17: a single free timeless fireball 18:06:37 03Mu * r74b7ce131923 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/portals/wizlab.des: Give the Hellbinder and Cloud Mage descriptions 18:06:48 okay? 18:06:59 anyways, i will write something about this after dinner 18:07:11 i want to see if i can put out a proposal that people can agree on as a first step in exploring this 18:08:25 delayed fireball would be more interesting if it timed out (if it doesn't already) so instead of casting it after fights you'd cast it after ducking out of sight or something like that 18:08:59 it's fine as it is 18:09:03 monqy: or: if it committed X amount of MP, and you could use fireballs every once in a while, removing the recasting aspect at all 18:09:09 a breath-like timer 18:09:12 I think I went on about it on the wiki or mantis or whatever 18:09:30 so you get free instafireballs, but you are giving up 7 MP or whatever to do it 18:09:34 which is really a noticeable amount 18:09:51 (obv. this would come after all current MP calculations ,given the way the cap owrks right now) 18:10:13 coj/fire/charms 18:10:28 hexes because you hex your mp into a fireball 18:10:43 like a witch 18:10:53 hex things to not be not in a fireball 18:12:50 -!- blackpenguin has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:14:45 -!- blackpenguin has joined ##crawl-dev 18:19:25 okay, back 18:21:03 the hall of blades needs changing. 18:21:13 s/changing/removing/ 18:21:41 make it into a portal vault except it already is one so remove it 18:22:15 it wouldn't be too bad if it had a single dancing weapon of a random rare base type 18:22:17 heh when i first heard of hexes and charms i thought the former were to adversely affect things and the latter were to make them more powerful 18:22:42 i was thinking of making a vault for it that had a dancing artefact or randart weapon 18:23:01 that'd be cool i guess 18:23:08 but there are probably more meaningful changes that could be made :P 18:23:09 randart would still likely be junk though 18:23:25 RjY: that's what it should be imo, it's better flavour and that split is mechanically better 18:23:59 also a boss dancing weapon would be cool because it makes no sense at all 18:24:11 heh 18:24:12 what is it now, charms affect the caster, hexes affect other things? 18:24:23 yes 18:24:31 even if those things are the caster's weapons 18:26:09 and haste is a charm but (i presume) you can still cast it on things that aren't you 18:27:17 invis is charm/hex 18:28:19 < elliptic> it wouldn't be too bad if it had a single dancing weapon of a random rare base type 18:28:23 well all i was saying was the names suggested something different to me... the idea of affects you vs. affects other things is fine as a way of splitting things up 18:28:24 it has pain and antimagic weapons now 18:28:55 RjY: well, it puts (say) weapon brands in hexes and berserker rage in charms 18:29:14 RjY: no, it's not fine 18:29:31 it's not less complicated or more flavorful than other solutions, and it is more inconsistent 18:29:33 blade has pain weapons? 18:29:40 MarvinPA: yep! was new to me 18:29:50 well i guess it has distortion and holy already 18:29:52 i think they're rare, i only found one in there 18:29:57 (it should have none of those three) 18:30:11 yes, someone said crusaders have a bit of difficulty now 18:30:25 MarvinPA: i want it to be a guaranteed portal vault, except one of four options 18:30:37 hall of blades, hall of statues, hall of mirrors, hall of heroes (ghosts) 18:30:45 ghosts? 18:31:02 monqy: ghostly adventurers~ 18:31:14 a.......dwarf hall of heroes 18:31:21 fallen heros 18:31:22 heros 18:31:25 hahah 18:31:34 no, specifically not the awful/stupid dwarf one 18:31:58 Eronarn: i just meant it's a well-defined division, i wasn't considering the gameplay :) 18:32:07 RjY: it's not well-defined though 18:32:08 Eronarn: so would this be like free exp for necromancers or what 18:32:22 monqy: only as much as blade is free XP for airstrikers 18:32:23 Eronarn: and like a bunch of panlords but weaker and more thematic? 18:32:34 yeah 18:32:49 MarvinPA: Hall of blades cannot be removed. 18:33:31 dpeg: why not? nearly nobody goes in 18:33:37 well i've not entered it in countless games and shall continue not to do so for the forseeable future 18:33:56 so it doesn't really matter for me :P 18:33:59 I think I've entered it once or twice, the first because I didn't know it didn't have quick blades 18:34:05 elliptic: I want those dancing dancing weapons. And I will not distracted by the fact that no one enters the branch! 18:34:11 i always go in there, it's great XP for zappers 18:34:14 Need to care about female gamers! 18:34:18 I accidentally autotravelled to it there this game 18:34:19 but i don't play much besides zappers 18:34:32 oh yeah i don't like that autotravel to 1-floor branches just sends you straight there 18:34:35 even for zappers it is quite nasty nowadays 18:34:37 i want to be able to autotravel to the hell entrance 18:34:44 MarvinPA: well, there's no reason why the branch can't be repaired... 18:35:05 sure, elliptic's suggestion of a single good base type or something would be an improvement 18:35:12 petrify is earth/tmut now right 18:35:21 MarvinPA: Wouldn't allow me to have waltzing weapons, though :) 18:35:29 Eronarn: yes 18:35:48 MarvinPA: yeah it'd be nice if G^H worked (or whatever the letter is, i mean prefixing the ^ before the branch key) 18:36:03 RjY: it does not? Used to. 18:36:06 it could also be way smaller, just the big vault instead of the vault and attached random bit 18:36:31 MarvinPA: I agree the layout is not optimal. Also not for dancing purposes. 18:36:45 oh you can do it that way round? i always do GL^ 18:36:53 I do GL^ too 18:37:14 e.g. to go to the entry to the last level of D I found I'd do GD$^ 18:37:26 dpeg: oh, my apologies, G^B appears to work fine 18:37:45 and thanks for the tip :) 18:38:16 ^ also isn't mention in autotravel help 18:38:27 I had no idea ^ existed 18:38:51 I forget how I learned about it 18:38:54 it is mentioned in the autotravel help 18:38:59 G? 18:39:02 nope 18:39:12 there is another help screen in there 18:39:22 where? 18:39:32 if you press G, L, ?, that help screen mentions ^, but G, ? doesn't mention it 18:39:48 (L if you know where Lair is, obviously) 18:40:03 Once you select a branch, you will be prompted for a depth in that branch (more help is available there). 18:40:05 oh nice, there's two different help screens for the same command 18:40:16 that's from G? 18:40:36 * dpeg makes jokes to himself how documentation requires literacy. 18:40:39 I tried doing GD? but it crashed 18:40:40 But it is a bit buried, yes. 18:41:15 i would have assumed that GL? would give me the same help screen as G? 18:41:17 yes but the point is it never occurred to me that you could do ^ before the branch letter 18:41:21 if it's worth anything, it's a debug build and I had only found dungeon 18:41:28 Interlevel Travel (go to a specific level in the selected branch) Type in the level number you want to go to and hit Enter, or use: Enter : Go to the default level. < : Change the default to one level above the current. > : Change default to one level below the current. - or p : Change default to the branch above this one. $ : Change default to deepest visited level in this branch. 18:41:34 ^ 18:41:35 sorry 18:41:38 : Change default to the entrance to the current level. 18:41:39 this is the other help screen :) 18:41:45 because G? doesn't mention it but GD? does 18:41:54 i see it now that it's been pointed out that there's a secret hidden help screen, yes :) 18:42:11 MarvinPA: the secret help screen is mentioned in the first one, though :) 18:42:34 Also check the prompt: What level of the Lair of Beasts? (default 1, ? - help) 18:42:44 Once you select a branch, you will be prompted for a depth in that 18:42:45 branch (more help is available there). 18:42:59 I always just use GZ0 and such 18:43:00 didn't seem to work with &~ 18:43:01 but you don't need to select a branch first, you can press ^ before choosing branch 18:43:05 for what it's worth :P 18:43:12 so ^ should be mentioned in the help for before you've chosen a branch 18:43:36 MarvinPA: yes i think so 18:43:41 it is trivial to improve the help screens.... 18:43:47 upload one, and we'll add it 18:43:49 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:magic:enchantments_split#split_5benevolent_vs_malevolent_energies_ero next iteration of alternate split 18:45:42 malevolent has more than benevolent there but that's fine because its spells are more repetitive / less good 18:45:45 don't really know what you're going for, but if you have the power to arbitrarily decide the placements, zerk should be bene for crusaders' sake 18:46:21 monqy: well crusader would already be losing regen in this setup, so i'm not sure doing stuff for their sake is the best approach 18:46:49 so if you remove both regen and zerk, what's left? 18:47:22 monqy: we aren't going to be able to get through this without at least 1 but probably 2 out of ench/AM/crusader needing revamps 18:48:00 imo ench could use some revamping 18:48:01 i'd actually rather it not happen until we have both ench + crusader figured out in any new paradigm 18:48:25 AM i don't mind if we have to redo totally or whatever 18:49:33 also on the premise, I must say that it would be nice if the assignment didn't seem so arbitrary, especially if you're redoing classes anyway 18:49:43 what part of it seems arbitrary in particular 18:50:19 !tell due Mu proposed Regeneration spell to be Nec/Tmut. I like it, what do you think? (Master of Tmuts :) 18:50:20 dpeg: OK, I'll let due know. 18:50:35 deciding which spirits you're channeling for each spell 18:50:53 particularly on things that have very similar gameplay effects, like brandings 18:51:34 monqy: similar gameplay effects but very different flavor, since crawl does actually have evil magic already 18:52:55 we've been moving away from stuff like 'buff = enchantment' for a while and it's been good (a nec/sum spell, a summ/tloc spell, petrify as an earth/tmut MR-resisted debuff) 18:53:16 Tenaya the Destroyer (L15 MuCj) ASSERT(in_bounds(src_pos) || src_pos.origin()) in 'mon-behv.cc' at line 722 failed on turn 31498. (Lair:8) 18:53:33 the questions should be: 1) is there a good gameplay effect from splitting the brands 2) can it reasonably be explained with existing flavor 18:54:39 Improve G help (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3362) by MarvintheParanoidAndroid 18:54:50 done and done 18:55:24 as for 1, i believe yes - it lets hexes be 'dark magic' without being outright evil, keeps all the stabbing stuff in one school, keeps most of the buff stuff in one school (and the brands in hexes are not typically part of the crusader-y buff playstyle) 18:55:35 if I was designing a game from the ground up I'd definitely not have Conjurations or Enchantments, and perhaps lack Summonings too 18:55:58 as for 2), i think it is pretty flavorful, seeing 'Nec/Hex' on lethal infusion is way more flavorful than seeing 'Nec/Charms' 18:55:59 it'd probably be too much work to apply it to crawl though 18:56:18 whereas Charms/Fire to make your sword a flaming sword? seems pretty fine to me 18:57:05 it also preserves flavor by way of aptitudes, you won't have stuff like vampires being super great at making their swords flaming because of them being super great at enslaving people 18:57:26 well that's just a problem with the current split 18:58:01 monqy: it's not even that different from the current split 18:58:23 half of the brands in charms instead of hexes, invis is a pure hex... are there any other differences at this point? 18:58:45 tukima's 18:58:49 not much though 18:58:57 looks like n78 is having fun reciting to orc 18:59:01 heheh 18:59:40 my rationale for tukima's as a charm is that it feels like it has nothing to do with sneaking around, stabbing people, enslaving people, etc. 19:00:12 why does dpeg's game have a * up in the top-right? 19:00:13 (i've been split with poison weapon fwiw, i could see it being a hex too) 19:00:23 generally, a lot of Ench/Conj spells strike me as being Ench/Conj simply because they behave a certain way, not because there's any good flavour in it or anything 19:00:26 oh, dev wizmode 19:00:33 wizard mode 19:00:47 tukima is definitely a charm 19:00:51 monqy: yeah and this is an opportunity to not make the same mistake again :) 19:01:08 well 19:01:30 in splitting a school like that, you get a big mess 19:01:38 yes, but what we have right now is a big mess 19:01:47 I hate the status quo too :( 19:01:50 if it were actually any simpler to delineate stuff on self/other without argument 19:01:51 yours is probably better 19:01:56 i would understand people wanting to roll with that 19:01:58 but it isn't. 19:02:36 if we're going to have tons of stupid arguments about this we should be having stupid arguments on 'what is mechanically better' and 'what is more interesting flavor', not 'what best adheres to self/other which was just a starting point anywayschosen anyways' 19:02:37 well what happens if you delineate by buff/adverse 19:02:57 RjY: something like https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:magic:enchantments_split#split_5benevolent_vs_malevolent_energies_ero 19:03:02 RjY: what of buffs that have adverse effects 19:03:10 RjY: invis, silence, confusing touch 19:03:13 (which, again, is a lot like the current split with some differences) 19:03:19 RjY: and the oddball spells, like projected noise 19:03:42 except in mine it's not really positive/negative, more the flavor of the spell - which works good imo where we have it in crawl 19:03:45 projected noise should be a conjuration :P 19:03:51 simulacrum isn't a summoning spell just because it makes summons 19:04:00 evaporate isn't a poison spell just because it poisons things 19:04:07 you conjure a noise up like you conjure a flame 19:04:20 invis and silence both have negative effects on you so 19:04:42 Crash on Lair:8 (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3363) by Tenaya 19:04:42 very hexy imo 19:04:46 invis/silence = hexes supremacy 19:04:53 yes 19:04:59 I guess if I removed charms I'd make tukima's and projected noise pure air, dual-school spells the non-charms school, remove Haste, stuff like that 19:05:08 confusing touch is a hex, because its ultimate aim is to adversely affect someone else. it just has a delayed reaction (doesn't work until you pimpslap someone) 19:05:25 RjY: yes obviously if you're anyone other than kilo :P 19:05:56 silence is a hex because it's primarily used to cripple enemy spellcasters, even if it does have an adverse effect on you as well 19:06:04 monqy: i think there's a place for the generalist spell schools, just right now they're not well-used by crawl 19:06:16 and invisibility is a charm, because it's primarily a way to make you more powerful 19:06:35 "generalist" spell schools is a bit of a misnomer 19:06:39 but that's just what i think. 19:06:44 conjurations, enchantments, etc are playstyles 19:06:49 or is it a way to fool your enemies...... 19:06:59 skills like ice are the ones that get to be generalist skills 19:07:00 (also, random idea: silence should use power not just for radius, but for selective destruction of noise, so high power silence loses the -stealth effects by preserving background noise) 19:07:13 Mu_: :P 19:08:01 Eronarn: that would make it really super powerful :) 19:08:14 a powerful spell, powerful, at high power? 19:08:17 why i never 19:08:40 -!- Gnash has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:08:41 silence really doesn't belong in the enchanter starting book, by the way 19:08:48 regardless of how ench split works 19:08:57 well i didn't want to say overpowered without having tried it but i thought the whole point of the stealth hobbling was to balance it because otherwise it's a really powerful thing 19:09:14 RjY: right now no one gets even close to max power on it though 19:09:14 without much thought, my ranking in terms of good school definition/variety (spells which are actually different from each other etc) is Charms < Conj < Summ/Hex/Poison/Tloc < Elemental/Nec/Tmut 19:09:45 monqy: yeah i think we need some new charms tbh 19:09:49 Tmut is a great definition but a lot of the spells are the same 19:09:54 RjY: the stealth hobbling is insignificant in practice 19:10:04 or rather 19:10:05 small stealth penalty is only a small drawback since it completely prevents enemies shouting which is way more useful to staying hidden 19:10:14 it's a flat -50 penalty; a stabby enchanter can get stealth over 700 19:10:15 i think some things that are charms should not even be charms, freeing us up to make new charms different from existing one 19:10:18 s 19:10:23 the removing the -stealth effects wouldn't make more people use silence 19:11:23 I put conj in front of charms because charms is just a "buffs go here" mess and conj at least has IOoD and clouds and storms 19:11:27 oh and tornado now I guess 19:12:22 one random thought would be: merge fly/lev, regen => nec/tmut, ozo's => ice/summ 19:12:55 summ? 19:13:04 ice/tmut like condensation shield? 19:13:32 also then make it disappear when you blink or teleport like condensation shield does (why does condensation shield do that) 19:13:35 condensation shield transmutes airborne water into condensed airborne water 19:13:43 not that i'm saying it's a bad idea but what is changing form when you cast regeneration? i'm sure it's obvious but i can't think of it :) 19:13:48 -!- Gnash has joined ##crawl-dev 19:13:59 RjY: your wounds into reanimated your wounds 19:14:19 i suppose you're turning food into... well, flesh and blood, yeah 19:14:37 any spell is a transmutation! it transmutes the state of the world before you cast the spell into the state of the world after you cast the spell 19:14:53 RjY: 'your skin crawls' is the flavor text for it 19:15:10 it's reshaping your flesh 19:15:13 that is absolutely tmut-y 19:15:23 elliptic: :) 19:15:32 "skin crawls" != reshaping your flesh 19:15:34 monqy: summ: you are summoning an icy suit of armor 19:15:43 Eronarn: no you're conjuring it 19:16:12 summoned stuff can be abjured, make ozo's armour abjurable 19:16:19 monqy: a conj defensive buff would be pretty cool but i don't think that makes sense for ozo's 19:16:34 Eronarn: it's just dpeg mentioned renegeration going to nec/tmut earlier so it must be an obvious idea, but i can't see it in my head, that's all 19:16:35 (ps, conjure flame => summon flame and fire/summ) 19:16:41 ew 19:16:55 abjurable flame clouds 19:17:04 you're teleporting in fire from Gehenna 19:17:06 tloc/flame 19:17:08 yes in a way it's more like a summon in that you can't summon a flame on top of something else 19:17:16 just like how teleporting stuff into the abyss is tloc 19:17:55 RjY: it is a spell that knits your wounds, makes you hunger more quickly, takes time to work (almost as if something were growing...), uses necromancy, and is described with "your skin crawls" 19:18:11 it is literally more tmut-y than some existing tmut spells 19:18:18 eronarn: healing != transmutations 19:18:29 what are you changing into what 19:18:37 you are avoiding saying that 19:18:52 yeah but my skin crawls when there are too many wasps around, i don't think i'm actually mutating though, i'm just afraid of them 19:19:10 RjY: are you reanimating part of your wounds though 19:19:25 could always change the description too 19:19:38 you're reshaping your flesh, you aren't changing thing a into thing b in the same way as going into spiderform 19:19:40 monqy: well yeah, i get the necromancy part 19:19:56 eronarn: in what sense are you reshaping your flesh? 19:20:39 into healthy flesh?? 19:20:40 you have wounds; you force them to heal more quickly, close up, set broken bones, etc. - this is not a huge stretch of imagination here 19:21:04 it's a temporal spell, it speeds up your healing. and since space and time are one, it should be tloc ;-) 19:21:18 and since it speeds something up chei should disapprove of it ;-) 19:21:38 make borg tloc/nec, you steal blood from yourself in the future 19:21:45 haha 19:21:47 eronarn: you are thinking of borg, not regen 19:21:55 regen is natural healing sped up a lot 19:22:04 borg is unnatural, instant healing 19:22:05 regen is not natural healing 19:22:11 Regeneration 19:22:12 This spell reanimates parts of the caster's wounds. This unholy act 19:22:12 dramatically but temporarily increases the caster's recuperative abilities, 19:22:12 while also increasing the rate of food consumption. 19:22:29 well, I want wound zombies then :P 19:22:40 wrong, monqy. death drakes are unholy but AF_NATURAL!! 19:22:47 wrong? 19:22:49 the first sentence of that description just doesn't make sense 19:22:51 oh 19:22:52 heheh 19:23:03 elliptic: i actually plan to add in zombie part swarms 19:23:05 elliptic: I imagine it was added to justify it being Nec 19:23:29 http://magiccards.info/10e/en/177.html = <3 19:24:29 but seriously, all other tmut spells make some immediate change, they don't make a gradual change over a duration like regen 19:24:42 elliptic: petrify 19:24:54 petrify makes an immediate change 19:25:01 and also a more gradual one 19:25:04 it immediately gradually turns them into stone 19:25:19 regeneration heals you the turn you cast it, that's immediate 19:25:23 it just heals you by a very small amount 19:25:32 and then by the smae amount on all future turns of its duration 19:26:02 also this is more a result of crawl just plain not having many spells that don't have instant effects 19:26:24 sticky flame is no conjuration, conjurations have immediate effects! 19:26:29 teleport, malign gateway, ... 19:26:39 sticky flame immediately sets things on fire 19:26:40 I am not married to Regen having a Tmut component, but I think it'd explain the Nec better, too. 19:26:41 not sure if there is anything else that doesn't kick in until future turns 19:26:47 dpeg: Cigotuvi's Regeneration 19:26:56 ahahaha 19:27:20 imagine getting them mixed up 19:27:43 I hope everyone here agrees about Regen being Nec. 19:28:08 oh yeah, i love the idea of reanimating your own flesh 19:28:21 dpeg: would you mind taking a glimpse at this alternative split? https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:magic:enchantments_split#split_5benevolent_vs_malevolent_energies_ero 19:28:28 I'm still not sure what makes regeneration any more like a tmut spell than, say, animate skeleton 19:28:46 I definitely will, but not now: 2.30 am over here, gotte head home. 19:28:48 elliptic: there's always flexibility in assigning stuff 19:28:59 e.g., conjure flame could just be a pure fire spell 19:29:05 I was inspired by Eronarn's spine proposal, btw. 19:29:10 no, it is conjuring something 19:29:28 elliptic: too many things are conjuring, if you look at it the word. 19:29:36 sure 19:29:50 i.e. they "conjure" something 19:29:59 to me: "conjuration" = damaging spell 19:30:05 huh? 19:30:14 that's really wrong imo. 19:30:19 I agree with Mu_ 19:30:21 freeze, ozocubu's refrigeration, airstrike, ... 19:30:24 dpeg: the spinal parasite one? i hope to see it get in, yes 19:30:30 do you want those to all be conjurations? 19:30:51 ok ok, conjuration ==> damaging spells 19:30:54 i think the point was does conjuration mean create something out of nothing, or direct destruction 19:31:11 (imo: conjuration = short lived, often destructive energy. summoning = longer lived, more controllable, but less intense energy) 19:31:19 conj is creating the things you use in attack spells 19:31:33 I agree with Eronarn, but I'd rather see Conj die 19:31:37 summons already exist you don't create those 19:31:53 Mu_: shadow creatures 19:31:54 monqy: i think there's room for conj if only for spells like IMB 19:32:29 Mu_: weaves critters out of abyssal matter 19:32:38 though i think it's pretty overused right now 19:32:46 oh and summon elemental maybe 19:32:54 personally what I'd do with regeneration is make it pure necro and give it a drawback (like the stat drain that was suggested the other day) 19:32:55 I haven't looked at the summon elemental description though 19:32:56 summon elemental summons a spirit 19:32:57 i'd like to see stuff like ice/magma bolt not be conjurations 19:33:01 and binds it in the element 19:33:13 dunno about shadow creatures 19:33:34 I paraphrased from the shadow creatures description 19:33:45 eronarn: if those aren't conjurations, then what is? 19:34:01 the actual description is 19:34:04 This spell weaves a creature from shadows and threads of Abyssal matter. The 19:34:04 creature thus brought into existence will recreate some type of creature found 19:34:07 in the caster's immediate vicinity. The spell even creates appropriate 19:34:10 equipment for the creature, which are given a lasting substance by their firm 19:34:10 elliptic: that'd also be fine, yes 19:34:13 contact with reality. 19:34:27 oh ok you summon abyssal matter 19:34:32 still something that already exists :P 19:34:42 elliptic: at minimum, bolt of fire/cold, imb, iood, etc. 19:34:44 sum/tloc/tmut 19:34:49 which are definitely 'energy' rather than 'stuff' 19:35:20 conj is very obviously creation though given the spells that don't have it 19:35:33 so you want to turn conjurations into an "energy" school? 19:35:41 and that tomb spell used to be a conj 19:35:54 (almost make ozo armour a conj) 19:35:57 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 19:36:04 not necessarily! just saying that is one direction that could work for it 19:36:05 giving conj. a good theme is better than the status quo at least imo 19:36:52 I'm not fond of how 90% of all attack spells share a school, but the current use of conjurations generally makes sense to me 19:37:57 it's used pretty consistently, yes, i don't think anyone debates that 19:38:08 i'm talking about the first part 19:38:22 well, this started when you said elliptic: there's always flexibility in assigning stuff 19:38:40 so you really meant that there is flexibility because you can completely change what a school is 19:38:43 okay 19:38:55 what, no 19:39:11 that flexibility exists, but flexibility purely at the assignment level does too 19:39:15 then explain again how conjure flame is not a conjuration? 19:39:27 hey i've been reading the dictionary. how about this, damaging spells could be called extirpations 19:39:30 without completely changing the meaning of conjuration? 19:39:30 for example, OTR is poison only - it could be conj + poison because it's casting poison light 19:39:44 RjY: do you really want to give damaging spells a common school? 19:40:01 no i just think it's a good word :-) 19:40:25 eronarn: that's a better example, yeah 19:40:29 at least use it in the titles of randart books 19:40:44 Sif Muna's Guide on Fiery Extirpations 19:40:49 there's not really any lack of examples where stuff could be argued with multiple school combinations 19:40:57 but I don't see that flexibility extending to making regeneration tmut 19:40:59 even if everyone agrees on the school definitions 19:41:13 anyway i'm going to sleep, goodnight folks 19:41:14 it definitely does; tmut = reshaping flesh, and regen = reshapes flesh 19:41:38 where are you getting this reshaping? 19:41:44 it animates your wounds 19:42:11 changing the description again? 19:42:18 (to flesh reshaping) 19:42:24 "Your skin crawls." 19:42:36 i think he's going from "your skin crawls", which i think is just linley's dry sense of humour at work again 19:42:50 eronarn: uh, you keep quoting that but you know that doesn't mean that your skin is crawling around on your body? 19:42:56 it is a common phrase that people use 19:43:11 in before someone quotes that awful band whose name i won't mention 19:43:16 elliptic: haha look at you thinking that it's not literal 19:43:21 CRAWLING IN MY SKIN. 19:43:36 regeneration figuratively heals your metaphorical wounds 19:43:38 eronarn: haha look at you thinking that it's literal 19:43:58 (hint: it is literal) 19:44:14 (hint: it isn't literal) 19:44:19 oh dear 19:44:44 -!- upsy has left ##crawl-dev 19:44:54 this is the best argument 19:45:37 what if it perhaps literally heals your figurative wounds or perhaps figuratively heals your literal wounds 19:45:47 Folks, a hint from heaven: there is no consistency in this system. Sometimes, "conjuration" is used as "to conjure something", othertimes it is used as "damaging spell". 19:46:23 dpeg: when is it currently used as "damaging spell" that isn't also conjuring something? 19:46:34 I'll agree that there is limited consistency, though :) 19:46:38 dpeg: i think we can all agree, though, that puns are the most important part of crawl, and Cigotuvi's Regeneration is a good one 19:46:53 okay so split conjurations into spells that create something and spells that do damage without creating something explicitly 19:47:03 just axe it 19:47:04 ew 19:47:07 RjY: no 19:47:14 Eronarn: I don't think that puns are the most important part of Crawl. To me, it's clearly gods. 19:47:26 dpeg: it's sigmund 19:47:33 sigmund is the most important part of crawl 19:47:38 it's its dry sense of humour! that's the best part! 19:47:52 elliptic: what about the dozen spells which conjure something without being Conjuration? :) 19:47:59 come on, it insults you for getting to level 27! 19:48:09 Do I need to give you a stern lecture about subjective qualifiers? 19:48:38 can you give us a stern lecture about witches instead 19:48:49 dpeg: are there really that many? 19:49:02 can you give me a stern lecture about lullabies so i can fall asleep 19:49:53 * dpeg can sternly lecture on anything. 19:49:56 elliptic: well if you count freeze, ozo's, evap, ignite... 19:50:11 what if you only count the ones that are conjuring something 19:50:26 ozo armor, condensation shield, ? 19:50:31 uh, what do those conjure? (aside from ozo's armour) 19:50:35 cold 19:50:36 condensation shield isn't conjuring 19:50:36 elliptic: projected noise, elementals 19:50:47 or hot 19:50:50 corona 19:50:53 elementals shapes the wall, it should obviously be tmut 19:50:54 elementals are summoning spirits, this was discussed earlier 19:51:04 obviously? 19:51:08 I jest 19:51:15 I know, was to elliptic :) 19:51:27 I mean that's apparently the description in the game 19:51:56 it references the elemental planes 19:52:16 elliptic: read the description of the Conjurer background. There really is not a whole lot of consistency behind it. The question is if/how badly we want systematic terminology. 19:52:22 if projected noise and corona are conjuring something, what isn't conjuring something? 19:52:31 OG17: exactly my point 19:52:57 Heck if I know what magic is, but most spells seem to conjure something out of the caster's ass. 19:53:10 FR: ass magic 19:53:12 maybe this isn't what conjuration means 19:53:20 projected noise and corona can be reasoned away as the manipulation of existing matter/energy 19:53:32 "The Conjurer specialises in the violent and destructive magic of conjuration spells." 19:53:32 whereas a gigantic crystal spear is more of a "out of nowhere" thing 19:53:44 elliptic: you can read even that line in two ways, I note. 19:53:45 that doesn't mean very much, I agree :) 19:54:10 specialises in the violent etc. magic (which is Con) 19:54:23 vs the destructive spells in the Con school 19:54:52 conj = shortlived energy, summ = long lived energy or creatures or objects, charms = imbue stuff with benevolent spirits, hexes = imbue stuff with malevolent spirits, tloc = spatial or temporal magic, nec = magic dealing with death, tmut = magic about changing something's shape, pois=>alchemy = magic about changing something's essence or energy 19:54:58 there, i fixed crawl for you~ 19:55:40 conjuration - making a thing, summoning - making a creature, charm - buff, hex - debuff etc 19:55:45 see how much better that is 19:55:51 OG17 - bad taste 19:55:59 seriously are you on those spirits again 19:56:15 the reasoning behind X spell school being named X is secondary to gameplay mechanics, imo 19:56:33 (summoning is summoning a creature but I didn't want to say summoning twice) 19:56:38 This discussion is silly, of course. But I cannot get over the fact that 2000 years of theology are not much deeper than this. 19:57:00 timecircuits: I absolutely agree 19:57:28 spells can be flavored to fit whatever but schools should have actual meanings 19:57:44 it's not like there's a textbook describing the exact arcane fashion in which magic is used 19:58:01 OG17: having "this is the school for pets", "this is the school for direct damage" sucks 19:58:07 so whether a fireball is created by superheating and compressing existing air, or transporting fire from the fire dimension, or whatever, is immaterial (hah) 19:58:08 it's good if they flow into each other 19:58:18 there is no direct damage school and pets aren't in one school but okay 19:58:26 exactly!! 19:59:27 thematic consistency is great but having a conversation about pretend physics is painting bikesheds 20:00:49 eronarn: changing things because they don't suck 20:01:22 also 20:01:25 crawl has toenail golems 20:01:53 toenail golems: summ or tmut? 20:02:03 my point exactly 20:02:07 hexes 20:02:12 summ/glue 20:03:13 Players should be able to collect the toenails of the fallen. 20:03:48 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: zzz] 20:05:08 so tempted to code that 20:05:20 just track it as a variable and never use it anywhere 20:06:01 put it in dumps/morgues 20:06:26 pretend the score is toenail count 20:06:30 perhaps put in the E display too 20:06:39 sounds good for the next tourney 20:06:47 each toenail is worth one point 20:07:02 toenail banner 20:07:03 what if you scum your own toenails 20:07:25 need a toenail god of toenails 20:15:12 -!- Gnash has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:16:56 -!- Gnash has joined ##crawl-dev 20:31:14 -!- Gnash has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:37:08 -!- Gnash has joined ##crawl-dev 20:40:43 evilmike: that abyss vault... O_O 20:41:22 if I make a real version of it it will be toned down a bit... 20:41:22 evilmike: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 20:41:37 !messages 20:41:37 (1/1) due said (3h 54m 49s ago): Can't reply to the tracker from work, but: placing eldritch tentacles like that in vaults might be an issue. The spell that summons them does some specific set-up with timers and markers, and without that, they might be problematic. 20:43:21 i noticed those things could be placed in the game with &M and figured I gotta at least try to use it... there do seem to be a couple of problems though. The bigger problem is really the tiles issue 20:46:25 evilmike: personally i'd like to see the GOB be buffed 20:46:29 different spells or something 20:47:23 giving it eyes could be cool, too (transparent wall => "nictating membrane", the third transparent eyelid that many animals have) 20:47:52 yeah, it's a nonthreat as it is right there 20:48:51 @??giant orange brain 20:48:52 giant orange brain (04G) | Speed: 10 | HD: 10 | Health: 39-71 | AC/EV: 2/4 | Flags: evil, see invisible, lev, !sil | Res: 06magic(106), asphyx | Vul: 08holy | Chunks: 06mutagenic | XP: 786 | Sp: brain feed, polymorph other, shadow creatures, confuse, blink, teleport self. 20:48:53 problem with eyes is that afaik only giant eyeballs can affect you through glass, the other eye types are actually spellcasters 20:49:01 and golden eyes blink 20:49:13 i think draining works through glass now 20:49:31 there's the pan eye vault with them 20:49:33 oh, those would work 20:50:10 not sure what spells would be appropriate for its brain though 20:50:16 teleport self is not good 20:51:02 doesn't it being in the 6th slot mean it will only tele when it's fleeing? 20:51:16 yes, but that still means its brain is teleporting out of its head... :D 20:52:03 a custom brain could have something like SHT instead of shadow creatures, or malign gateway (although I've already got another rune vault with malign gateway casters) 20:52:45 -!- Gnash has quit [] 20:52:54 para + SHT would be good 20:53:04 i wanna fix up SHT to make it feel more otherworldy horror-y 20:53:19 could also make it so if the brain dies, the tentacles do, I think that's possible to do with lua, although I haven't tried 20:55:55 Isn't that how the Kraken operates, sorta? 20:56:55 code in a way to arbitrarily bind monsters, reimplement MG and kraken using it 20:57:10 or if there already is one, allow access via lua 20:58:04 (for making multi-square monster amalgamations) 20:58:28 that could be interesting for some sort of slime related monster 20:58:30 a bunch of eye-covered tentacles controlled by a giant orange brain 20:59:32 all that we really need is land krakens 20:59:49 then just replace the kraken tile with a brain and give it spells 21:00:46 @??eldritch tentacle 21:00:47 eldritch tentacle (07w) | Speed: 12 | HD: 16 | Health: 97-142 | AC/EV: 13/0 | Damage: 3009(chaos)11(elec:16-23), 4009(chaos)11(elec:16-23) | Flags: 11non-living, amphibious, see invisible, lev | Res: 13magic(immune), 04hellfire+++, 12cold+++, 10elec++, 09poison+++, 08acid+++, 12drown, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | XP: 3171. 21:00:51 imagine the stats on the main body 21:01:37 Practically immune to anything. 21:01:56 also, being able to tether monsters to others: Kraken Tentacles as a tmut spell 21:02:12 yess 21:02:14 kraken form 21:02:28 As long as we can 'stick' monsters to statues, I'll be for it. 21:03:01 that doesn't make sense at all 21:03:42 Hagfish like slime? 21:04:14 I don't know where I was going with that. 21:04:31 ooh, that'd be a good way to implement the 'spinal parasite' spell 21:04:37 it makes an X that sticks adjacent to the target 21:04:47 and tries to pivot to hide from attackers 21:04:48 an X or an x? 21:04:53 X seems a bit big 21:05:16 x, yes 21:52:12 chaos elec? 21:52:16 multi-flavoring is in? 21:52:21 @?? vampire mosquito 21:52:21 vampire mosquito (07y) | Speed: 19 | HD: 5 | Health: 17-39 | AC/EV: 2/15 | Damage: 507(disease), 805(vampiric) | Flags: 07undead, evil, fly | Res: 06magic(20), 03poison, 12drown, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 179. 21:52:28 @?? jellyfish 21:52:28 jellyfish (10J) | Speed: 10 | HD: 4 | Health: 13-32 | AC/EV: 0/5 | Damage: 104(poison, drain strength), 1 | Res: 06magic(16), 03poison, 12drown | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 60. 21:53:14 @?? chaos spawn 21:53:14 chaos spawn (113) | Speed: 11 | HD: 6 | Health: 21-45 | AC/EV: 7/12 | Damage: 2109(chaos)11(elec:6-8) | Flags: 05demonic, see invisible | Res: 06magic(56), 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 198. 21:53:19 oh. bug. 22:04:24 yeah, chaos always shows as elec 22:04:50 probably a really easy fix for due 22:04:56 ping due 22:08:11 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 22:08:17 Yo fightclub is broke 22:08:20 fyi 22:09:51 !tell greensnark that 22:09:52 sorear: OK, I'll let greensnark know. 22:10:25 greensnark hasn't been around for a couple days 22:10:41 Sticks to snakes still leaves corpses. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3364) by elliptic 22:17:30 !tell greensnark Yo Fightclub is brokes 22:17:30 ZChris13: OK, I'll let greensnark know. 22:25:49 @??chaos spawn 22:25:50 chaos spawn (113) | Speed: 11 | HD: 6 | Health: 21-45 | AC/EV: 7/12 | Damage: 2109(chaos) | Flags: 05demonic, see invisible | Res: 06magic(56), 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 198. 22:26:57 not sure how to show the new two-tier rot resistance 22:27:41 code-wise, it can be 0, +1 or +3 22:27:41 what're the two tiers? undead vs. no flesh at all? 22:28:56 flesh but resistant vs immune (usually due to no flesh) 22:29:45 it might be good to have "flesh but not rottable" as +2, but nothing uses that 22:31:29 effo (L15 FeCr) (D:13) 22:31:36 @??shadow dragon 22:31:36 shadow dragon (06D) | Speed: 10 | HD: 17 | Health: 106-149 | AC/EV: 15/10 | Damage: 2013(drain), 15, 15 | Flags: evil, cold-blooded, see invisible, fly, !sil | Res: 06magic(113), 02cold++, 03poison, 13neg+++ | Vul: 08holy | Chunks: 04hydrochloric acid | XP: 3401 | Sp: b.draining (3d21). 22:31:48 effo (L15 FeCr) (D:13) 22:31:55 no res rot here is quite puzzling 22:32:05 !lm effo type=crash -log 22:32:05 2. effo, XL15 FeCr, T:65157 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/effo/crash-effo-20110201-043149.txt 22:32:36 kilobyte: you could have 'flesh but not rottable' for demons maybe? 22:32:39 effo (L15 FeCr) (D:13) 22:32:40 @??demonic crawler 22:32:41 demonic crawler (09s) | Speed: 9 | HD: 9 | Health: 34-65 | AC/EV: 10/6 | Damage: 13, 13, 13 | Flags: 05demonic, see invisible | Res: 06magic(72), 05fire, 02cold, 10elec++, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | Chunks: clean/none/unknown | XP: 238. 22:32:47 they leave corpses 22:34:28 current logic is: natural, plants: rRot0; demons, holy, RES_ROT (just death drake), 'n', zombies: rRot+; insubstantial, other undead: rRot+++ 22:35:55 plants don't resist rot? 22:36:00 rRot+ means you're immune to all necromantic/miasma rottage, but Zin can still rot you 22:36:08 they did, I changed this 22:36:12 i mean, rotting plants, yes, but crawl rot seems to be flesh-based 22:36:17 but i guess that can change, sure 22:37:18 it'd be nice to have a general 'has flesh' check as well as the rot res one 22:37:25 right now we have is_skeletal but that's kind of different 23:34:15 -!- valrus_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]