00:36:05 Ebonnov the Farming Metallomancer (L27 DSEE) ASSERT(branch != NUM_BRANCHES && depth != -1) in 'travel.cc' at line 2933 failed on turn 211286. (D:22) 00:36:37 ... whoa 00:37:15 What? 00:37:25 !lm type=crash x=v 00:37:26 No milestones for due (type=crash). 00:37:30 !lm * type=crash x=v 00:37:31 513. [2011-01-26] [v=0.7.1] Ebonnov the Farming Metallomancer (L27 DSEE) ASSERT(branch != NUM BRANCHES && depth != -1) in 'travel.cc' at line 2933 failed on turn 211286. (D:22) 00:37:40 Bah. 00:39:11 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:21:15 -!- Neovanglist has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:23:14 new stalker only gets 1 tmut 01:23:38 this is less than any other class, and at any rate not enough to cast anything 01:24:22 uh, what? they get skills other than tmut, no? 01:24:36 yeah, but you can't cast spells with stealth skill 01:25:00 so? berserkers start with less than 1 tmut if you just care about spell skills :P 01:25:06 en has a roughly comparable start in terms of other skills, just no stabbing; it has I think 3 ench 01:25:41 if just giving them enough skill to cast isn't an option, then something else needs to go down 01:26:07 En doesn't get stabbing skill 01:26:26 st doesn't need to start with stabbing either 01:26:35 it does need to cast spells 01:26:59 it does look like En has somewhat more starting skill in total, but it isn't a huge difference 01:27:17 yeah I don't care about total starting skill 01:27:22 stalker needs to cast, it's a casting class 01:27:28 HuSt starts with fulsome at good, what's wrong with that? 01:27:44 a casting class that starts with a +2 dagger? 01:27:46 "good" as in "barely 70%" 01:27:50 for a level 1 spell 01:27:51 it doesn't *need* to cast anything 01:28:01 and failure rate for fulsome is irrelevant 01:28:09 evap is at fair 01:28:13 passwall at bad 01:28:22 hint: train your skills 01:28:31 seriously, this isn't much different from how Tm starts 01:28:39 and you get a +2 dagger 01:28:49 the player should not have to dance their entire first three levels into a single skill to be able to cast at fair 01:29:02 tm has all the skills it needs 01:29:13 you should start out being able to cast L3 spells at fair? 01:29:23 you should start out being able to cast L1 spells 01:29:28 ##crawl is thataway 01:29:41 pretty sure we're talking about development 01:30:00 tgwi: transmuter starts out with spider form at poor 01:30:21 poor > vpoor > bad 01:31:45 elliptic: so what exactly is your opposition to raising the tmut and possibly stealing some stabbing 01:32:27 having evap lets you train stabbing; not having evap lets you play a bad assassin 01:32:29 I don't really care, but it seems to me like the current start is fine 01:32:42 s/bad/worse/ 01:32:52 raising tmut would make it feel even more like transmuter 2.0 01:33:09 they're pretty different 01:40:52 okay, so there's a variable called plojy. 01:40:53 autoiding staves is awesome 01:41:00 due: only one? 01:41:03 you guys are slacking 01:41:13 it means "the number of items this shop will have". 01:41:21 which is 5+random2avg(12,3).. 02:00:55 -!- Neovanglist has joined ##crawl-dev 02:14:26 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:15:01 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 02:15:01 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus forever. 02:23:06 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 02:32:30 elliptic: still awake? 02:32:38 yes 02:35:01 about our heated argument about paralysis yesterday night: I went through all morgues on CDO (save for last several months, I wgetted -r them in September), and there wasn't a single AC char (filtered those xl<10 away) who had the paralyse message in his message history 02:35:47 parsed data: http://sprunge.us/FDYT 02:36:13 the guy with 27 AC had it from mutations and Ozocubu's 02:38:22 interesting, thanks for doing the work to get the data 02:38:43 I mistakenly didn't unpack 0.3 and earlier data, but 0.4 and 0.5 should probably be enough 02:39:27 moin 02:39:27 sadly, no way to recover what the EV was since it drops if you're still paralyzed 02:39:37 Zaba: hi! 02:39:44 hi zaba 02:40:14 kilobyte: the vast majority of games on cdo were 0.6 or later, though 02:40:15 due: what about using your nifty new shop name code to just store the name in all cases? 02:40:23 !lg * cdo ktyp!=quitting ktyp!=leaving s=cv 02:40:23 110773 games for * (cdo ktyp!=quitting ktyp!=leaving): 29467x 0.6-a, 27899x 0.8-a, 22486x 0.7-a, 11222x 0.7, 5764x 0.5-a, 3832x 0.3, 3498x 0.4-a, 3181x 0.6, 2148x 0.5, 1276x 0.4 02:40:40 kilobyte: yes 02:40:43 kilobyte: if i can get it to work 02:41:23 so that's a relatively small sample set for 0.5/0.4, and people weren't using much heavy armour until 0.8 02:41:44 but still your data is persuasive 02:41:48 oh bah 02:41:52 silly me 02:42:02 I'm a little surprised that there weren't even any chain paralysis deaths on tomb:1, though 02:42:17 http://sprunge.us/FDYT at least says it has 0.7 and 0.7 morgues and even a 0.8 morgue 02:42:25 0.6 and 0.7 I mean 02:42:32 I may have misinterpreted something though 02:42:43 monqy: yeah, it has everything >= 0.4 I think 02:42:50 thing to do: "load character from morgue" :D 02:42:56 hurray 02:42:58 if I understand what kilobyte said correctly 02:42:58 elliptic: good point, I just realized I have CAO data as well 02:43:21 oh right nobody used heavy armour in 0.7 and 0.6 02:43:26 yes, the 0.5 CAO data would be more substantial 02:43:39 (though paralysis was buffed and MR weakened since then) 02:43:44 wasn't 0.5 heavy armour supposed to be crazy or something too 02:44:17 honestly I've never had too much trouble with paralysis, or at least I can't remember having too much trouble with it, even on EV chars 02:44:39 maybe I'm lucky though 02:44:57 I forget how good MD racial MR was in <=0.5 but it was pretty substantial 02:45:05 "test's Weapon Emporium"! hooray! 02:45:14 MD racial MR was massive in 0.4.5 02:45:28 too bad it takes ages to unpack (300MB .tar.bz2, several GB uncompressed) 02:46:57 kilobyte: ask greensnark for a cpoy of sequell's database? 02:46:58 hrmm 02:47:02 kilobyte: it might be easier parsed. 02:47:09 !lg * src=cao cv=0.4.5 x=ev 02:47:10 Unknown selector ev 02:47:18 !lg * src=cao cv=0.5 x=ev 02:47:18 Unknown selector ev 02:47:22 0.5-0.7 MR of xl*2 was fun: seven abyssings during one Elf:7 run 02:47:23 Or... noot. 02:47:23 is it just me, or should the feature_type constructors use initialization lists or whatever they're called? 02:47:40 (no Trog, so no hand) 02:47:42 on paralysis and ac chars, I'd probably be the most worried about chained elemental damage, hellfire, torment, and smiting, but I don't know how common that is apart from sphinxes and panlords with summon eyeballs and escorted by tormentors and hellions 02:47:42 Zaba: is this related to my feature_spec changes? 02:48:08 yes 02:48:26 Zaba: blame greensnark, he told me to do it that way 02:48:28 doesn't one of the lich spell sets have both paralysis and greater demon? 02:48:32 kilobyte: so I'm a little bit confused by what you were searching for in the morgue files to find paralysis deaths 02:48:37 kilobyte: thanks for the data. How did you determine paralysis? 02:48:55 you said you were looking in the message history, but the message history only goes several lines back 02:49:02 at least with default settings 02:49:23 which definitely isn't long enough 02:49:25 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 02:49:27 @: paralysis is in the dump, so you could use that 02:49:42 hi 02:49:48 yeah, you could find deaths where the player was still paralyzed at the moment of death 02:49:53 well, I don't got no time to clean it up anyway :P 02:49:56 but not so easy to find deaths caused by paralysis 02:50:03 Zaba: what is wrong with the way i am doing it, though? 02:50:38 I don't think there's anything functionally wrong with it, but initialization lists are generally employed with constructors... 02:51:11 Ah, I copied it from monster.cc. 02:51:19 my experience with paralysis has often been surviving the damage while paralyzed, but then being low HP and surrounded by monsters and needing to be accurate/lucky to survive 02:51:57 and deaths of that sort, or where you die the turn the paralysis ends (which has happened to me with EV chars) would not be so easy to search for 02:52:17 due, bah, copypasta 02:53:18 Zaba: due to my use of auto_ptr it required an operator= and copy initialisation functions, sayeth Darshan. 02:54:28 but that's not related to how the constructors set the int members of the struct through assignment and not an initialization list 02:54:51 and the auto_ptr members, too, but I have no clue about those, not at this time of day, anyway 02:55:04 kilobyte: an example of the sort of paralysis death I'm talking about (on CAO, so I don't know whether your script is already smart enough to get it): http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/elliptic/morgue-elliptic-20091228-015107.txt 02:55:05 * due shrug 02:55:07 well, feel free to fix it 02:55:19 i am off to make dinner 02:55:26 after that: items for shops! 02:55:39 03due * r8eeaac88ab1b 10/crawl-ref/source/ (dungeon.cc mapdef.cc mapdef.h): Allow vaults to specify shop: name, type name, suffix, greed, count. 02:57:10 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:58:47 kilobyte: another example, this one actually on CDO: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/hyperbolic/morgue-hyperbolic-20100128-050442.txt 02:59:35 searching for "You can move again." would catch both of these, and I gather you aren't currently doing that... would be interesting to see the results 03:02:02 these were both light-armour chars and you may still be right that there are essentially no heavy-armour deaths to paralysis, of course 03:02:02 but as things are I think you are probably missing quite a large proportion of deaths caused by paralysis 03:08:12 I did grep for "You suddenly lose the ability to move!", so in versions that shown only 10 lines by default this is indeed likely to be lost 03:09:41 there's a lot of false positives, though... like, one of my deaths where I quaffed a number of unided potions before charging an oklob... para was one of them, but the death was in no way related to being paralysed 03:10:41 the default settings for v>=0.5 seem to be only 7 lines 03:11:27 yeah, I'm actually wondering how many of the deaths you listed were false positives if they all had to have paralysis starting within the last seven lines (or custom settings) 03:12:52 searching for "paralysed" or "You can move again" seem more likely to be actual paralysis deaths 03:19:13 grepping for 'You suddenly lose the ability to move!\|You can move again.\|paralysed' on CAO data, with luck it will finish by the new year 03:20:25 yay, default dump_message_count is indeed 7 03:27:39 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:35:14 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 04:02:33 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 04:05:44 greensnark: i am led to believe you are celebrating a holiday today. hooray! 04:15:26 elliptic: 80 chars out of 1102 paralysed had >=30 AC (again, throwing away those below xl 10) 04:16:36 kilobyte: I recall heated bikeshedding about if skeletal warriors should be silenceable. :) 04:16:52 Keskitalo: hence why it is good that someone has gone ahead and made a change :D 04:17:08 Keskitalo: i aam implementing shop items in vault definitions! 04:17:11 how exciting!!! 04:17:15 kilobyte: how easy would it be to check what the ratio is of chars with >=30 AC among all chars with xl >= 10 in your sample? 04:17:15 due: Most excellent! 04:17:18 It is, actually. 04:17:33 due: Well, as long as curse skulls aren't silencable. 04:17:44 oh, i agree 04:17:54 skeletal warriors absolutely should not be silencable 04:18:00 simply because they use the standard spellcasting gestures 04:18:42 new adjective to use for a crawl monster somewhere: druzy 04:19:00 I like the sound of that! I have no idea what it means! 04:19:07 elliptic: I thought about that too, running a check (which will again take ages) 04:19:07 it means covered with a fine layer of crystals 04:19:15 Ooh, cool. 04:19:58 kilobyte: is this CAO data now? what version(s)? 04:20:07 due: Also yay less giant monsters! 04:20:19 Keskitalo: i am going to do more tonight >:) 04:20:25 \o/ 04:20:49 specifically bye bye giant blowflies and giant mosquitos, hello vampire mosquito! 04:20:55 elliptic: all of CAO until September 04:21:01 @??giant mosquito 04:21:02 giant mosquito (16y) | Speed: 12 | HD: 1 | Health: 3-8 | AC/EV: 0/13 | Damage: 1007(disease) | Flags: fly | Res: 06magic(4) | Vul: 09poison | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 8. 04:21:05 @??giant blowfly 04:21:05 giant blowfly (15y) | Speed: 19 | HD: 5 | Health: 17-39 | AC/EV: 2/15 | Damage: 13 | Flags: fly | Res: 06magic(20) | Vul: 09poison | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 179. 04:21:32 (that in and of itself is a bad dichotomy with the wihte/lightgray thingy) 04:21:46 vampire mosquito, I like it! 04:22:21 vampiric attack, undead and with blowfly stats, to replace giant blowfly and giant mosquitos. 04:22:26 eronarn came upwith it, of couse 04:22:36 kilobyte: independent of these questions about how dangerous paralysis is with heavy armour, it would be interesting to compare different versions to see whether paralysis has become more or less common 04:24:28 lol 04:24:35 good idea, I already extract version number 04:24:38 host google.com.s9a1.psmtp.com [74.125.148.10]: 550 5.2.1 ... Mailbox disabled for this recipient 04:24:51 Napkin: ? 04:25:54 just funny email used by someone trying to register 04:26:55 elliptic: I'll re-run it with unfiltered data: what fields would we want? Currently it's ac, xl, god, version. 04:27:07 due: Ah, replacing bores. Keep giant mosquite around though please, I use it in sewers. 04:27:34 hm 04:27:36 heck, it might be good to plot ac:xl for every major version 04:27:36 (I can then tweak their attack power down a bit and use it a bit more! \o/) 04:27:50 giant mosquitoes -> vampire mosquitoes 04:28:10 maybe 04:28:32 no, that is the change I am planning on making 04:28:50 oh sorry, I was just in middle of a senstence 04:28:50 i mean 04:28:52 i am making no sense! 04:28:55 sentence, change is fine! :D 04:29:00 argh, sorry, brain is on thingy 04:29:01 no, *I* am making no sense! 04:29:20 kilobyte: might grab EV too, though of course it isn't interesting for the games in which people are actually paralyzed at time of death 04:29:24 well, we can all make noo sense together 04:29:43 anyway, we can use downgraded (less HD/HP) vampire mosquitoes for sewer, right? 04:29:55 yes, exacctly 04:30:00 ..though attack power 13 is a bit much.. 04:30:03 hmm hmm hmm 04:30:07 they are currently attack power 10 04:30:19 yeah, i was looking at blowfly stats 04:30:22 !killsby giant mosquito 04:30:23 58 games for * (ckiller=giant mosquito): 2x splat, 1x SpeedRobin, 1x Rageo, 1x nmf, 1x Mokuren, 1x IanDavid, 1x Greeny, 1x Ilyak, 1x KHAAAAAAAN, 1x Xomrobin, 1x Aliza, 1x Ragdoll, 1x yogidabear, 1x terril, 1x aurelian, 1x tabasco, 1x ToastyP, 1x Supified, 1x impgrinder, 1x Soadreqm, 1x VonKrieger, 1x Elynae, 1x icefox, 1x m00se, 1x ihlosi, 1x Eronarn, 1x MrMrMonkey, 1x Solvent, 1x phyphor, 1x schw... 04:30:32 !killsby giant mosquito place=icecv 04:30:32 No games for * (ckiller=giant mosquito place=icecv) 04:30:38 !killsby giant mosquito place=ice cave 04:30:39 No games for * (ckiller=giant mosquito place=ice cave) 04:30:40 duh 04:30:45 !killsby giant mosquito place=sewer 04:30:44 20 games for * (ckiller=giant mosquito place=sewer): 1x KHAAAAAAAN, 1x Ragdoll, 1x m00se, 1x MrMrMonkey, 1x Bug, 1x Rageo, 1x Squagin, 1x hymie, 1x Supified, 1x pukewolf, 1x icefox, 1x nmf, 1x terril, 1x tehpwn, 1x Eronarn, 1x Elynae, 1x Icemage, 1x Zicher, 1x phyphor, 1x Fangorn 04:30:46 hahahaha 04:31:20 quite popular in sewer you see :) 04:37:12 yes 04:37:13 excellent 04:38:02 Hmm, they're also always placed randomly, e.g. it's stuff like MONS: giant bat / w:2 giant mosquito 04:38:21 We could just drop them too - that way no need to consider the high attack power. 04:48:41 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:48:59 Mu_: i still do not uunderstand why they do not speak 04:49:06 :(((( 04:49:06 !lm * br.enter=~cigotu 04:49:13 No milestones for * (br.enter=~cigotu). 04:51:13 -!- cw_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:52:51 that vault is my pride and joy, i feel bad it doesn't work right :P 04:53:09 <3 mu 05:03:51 wheee i am fucking up shops 05:08:03 it wooooooooooooooooorks 05:08:05 omfg, Keskitalo! 05:08:15 b - a book of Burglary 10350 gold 05:08:15 c - a +0 robe 165 gold 05:08:15 d - a book of Annihilations 15870 gold 05:08:21 e - a +0 orcish ring mail 510 05:09:09 hm weighting borked 05:23:48 nice prices 05:24:22 yeah 05:24:25 I put the greed at 183 05:24:33 isn't it awesome? 05:24:39 yup 05:25:22 So we can have a greed:1 name:Tutorial type:Test suffix:Shop ; 05:26:04 yay Orb shops 05:26:11 well 05:26:12 yes 05:26:17 let's see 05:26:42 a - the Orb of Zot 325000 gold 05:26:44 :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD 05:26:58 nice! 05:27:09 setting greed to 1 gets you 25000gp. 05:27:10 well, that's one way of stopping apportation 05:27:17 elliptic: <3 05:27:27 but yes, it's possible to put ridiculous items in shops. 05:27:44 however it is better to enforce through not allowing vaults with such things than to specifically code around them. 05:28:10 need corpse shops 05:28:38 doable 05:35:53 -!- cw_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:02:50 anyone have a moment to update cdo? 06:04:28 oops - how do I "adjust" spells now? 06:05:15 = still, but you don't get prompted for abils/spells unless you have them 06:05:20 or does it just not ask me anymore, since I have no spells? 06:05:24 which I don't like all that much 06:05:58 well, a bit confusing.. got really used to hitting =i and =s quickly 06:06:08 but makes sense, of course 06:08:43 I thought people here talking about vampiric mosquitos might appreciate trog's latest gift to me: D - the +9,+5 executioner's axe of the Mosquito {god gift, vamp, +Blink MR Int+4} 06:15:30 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 06:16:32 elliptic: thanks for the gdr proposal (that galehar posted to the wiki), best numbers so far as far as I can tell 06:17:01 thanks :) 06:17:22 Hi 06:17:29 -!- Twilight-1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:17:34 Napkin: yeah, that's an interesting usability thing/decision - the way it is now perhaps helps learning the interface or is simpler for slow/new players, but messes up keymashing muscle memory 06:17:52 (i said "usability" so i can grep this later from the irc logs :D) 06:17:54 hehe 06:18:00 same with "g" for me 06:18:19 menus should by consistant in my opinion 06:18:24 be 06:19:04 st_: in general yes, but there are always exceptions. What are you referring to? 06:19:07 nah, not necessarily 06:19:47 = not giving a ability/spell/item prompt when you don't have spells/abils 06:19:51 I had the same experience napkin did 06:20:55 There are more cases likes this: chopping (single item: c, more cc). 06:21:17 it is quite rare to have neither spells or abils (no god and no spells rules out most starting classes), so I don't think there should be special behavior the way there is 06:21:57 well, in the case of "=" i think it's a good change 06:21:59 I would never back down on the new change right away: _of course_ will veterans press keys from muscle memory (and sometimes complain), but (a) new players don't and (b) old players can adapt, but they need some time for this. 06:22:32 will need some adjustment to adapt, of course 06:22:44 speaking of interface, can I complain about the new very busy lines of options for doing things with stacks? 06:22:50 Pick up 27 runed arrows? ((y)es/(n)o/(a)ll/(m)enu/*?g,/q) 06:23:00 yes, Johanna added that without asking 06:23:12 but in the case of "g" i don't really like it - and i think that change went to in exactly the opposite direction 06:23:15 you can complain but perhaps c-r-d is the best channel 06:23:31 Napkin: I tried to change that, but galehar wouldn't listen :) 06:24:12 I told myself that I'll just wait and put forward my proposal in case the current state gets too many complaints. (Perhaps it doesn't.) 06:24:17 there are maybe like.. 2 times in a whole game, where I would pick up only x of y items.. but i have to press twice for every pack of ammunition i pick up 06:24:31 Napkin: I agree. 06:24:31 macro g to , 06:24:34 casmith789: no 06:24:41 that is only second best 06:24:48 macroing g to , is what I do... 06:25:04 adopt my playstyle and just use , like I do all the time ;) 06:25:12 i will first keep an eye on whether i am right about "2 times in a whole game".. so giving it a try first 06:25:23 if I ever want to pick up only x of y items in a single stack and it is really critical, I will remove the macro 06:25:25 we shouldn't use macros as band-aid to cover interface woes 06:25:27 this isn't very likely 06:25:40 ah, I should reply to johanna's mail on crd.. and test the tutorial, but we'll see if I have the time 06:25:46 i do know i've been wrong in complaining in the past about some changes (like "cc" which I like nowadays) 06:25:52 making interface easier for new players at the expense of general usability is bad 06:25:59 remember, new players learn and become veterans, too 06:26:17 what is this "cc"? 06:26:17 Zaba: this is about = but not g or c, right? 06:26:22 elliptic: chopping 06:26:32 dpeg, this is in general, I haven't played lately to pinpoint more specific things 06:26:41 There is modality: the interface only presents the prompt when there are more than one choppable items. 06:26:53 dpeg, the "((y)es/(n)o/(a)ll/(m)enu/*?g,/q)" in prompt is an example of that, though 06:26:53 This got complaints when proposed, because players were so used to cy 06:26:56 does cc chop everything in the stack or something? 06:27:02 I use cy 06:27:05 Zaba: as I said, that was never really discussed. 06:27:06 cy = cc 06:27:13 elliptic: there is also ca 06:27:39 but I haven't noticed any change to the keys I press for chopping... should I have? 06:27:42 elliptic: you will have noticed that you don't press y when there's just one item. That was new and contested at some time. 06:27:57 oh, how recent is this? 06:28:17 since at least 0.7, elliptic 06:28:38 ah, okay, I vaguely remember something like that 06:28:44 or you have set the option to disable easy_butcher 06:28:45 thought we were talking about something more recent :) 06:29:35 no no 06:29:57 elliptic: but that another example where we changed the interface a bit, and it wasn't clear whether that's good or not 06:30:40 * dpeg got preemptive complaints by half the dev-team, including his Snarking Highness! =) 06:30:49 WRT the new ranged ai - is that staying in? it seems easy to abuse 06:31:18 the biggest problem so far with the "Pick up how many" prompt is, that it actually accepts non-numeric input 06:31:51 so i end up writing into the prompt, need to either delete and press enter or escape and then gg 06:32:03 casmith789: how do you abuse it? it doesn't seem any more abusable than the old AI to me so far, but maybe I just haven't figured out how :) 06:32:21 pillar dancing at range with clouds / poison 06:32:39 I killed sigmund as an xl3 ogvm using just sting by abusing the ai 06:32:51 -!- Twilight13 has joined ##crawl-dev 06:33:03 !lm casmith789 ogvm uniq=sigmund -tv 06:33:04 2. casmith789, XL3 OgVM, T:1605 (milestone) requested for FooTV. 06:33:08 -!- jpeg_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:33:12 heh - deleting the input on the g-prompt and pressing enter then actually cancels pickup and clears the message window 06:33:15 bug, bug, bug 06:33:28 I see I am being discussed... hi @lls! 06:33:35 has everybody remapped that immediately instead of trying? 06:33:38 moin jpeg :) 06:33:58 I've got to admit that I never actually use 'g', so it didn't occur to me that this might be a problem 06:34:08 I'm willing to back down on that, though not on the = change :) 06:34:13 i never use "," ;) 06:34:21 jpeg_: I use the vi keys more often than I realise and when doing so, I pickup with g. 06:34:28 I always use , 06:34:32 well, I move with the arrow keys, so , is easy to reach 06:34:39 and I use vikeys 06:34:39 For some reason, I was doing this during my Spring fit, and I hated the g prompt with a passion. 06:34:52 yeah, vikeys+g for me too 06:34:53 geez - you guys are holding on tightly to your coffee cups with the left hand? 06:34:58 This is when I realised that the current solution (where g Enter or gg exit the menu) might not be good enough. 06:35:02 I use vikeys, but , 06:35:10 But my insight came too late for galehar. 06:35:19 it seems to me that g and , should stay synonyms 06:35:28 vikeys with right, g with left hand.. like asdf too :) 06:35:48 jpeg_: you didn't like my last tutorial reply? 06:36:01 yeah, picking up only part of a stack is such a rare action that we can put it on some obscure key 06:36:11 \o/ 06:36:11 dpeg: which one? 06:36:13 +1 06:36:25 jpeg_: where I offered to set up the orc room :) 06:36:36 Oh, so the = behaviour is new? 06:36:36 greensnark: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 06:36:38 casmith789: I think one thing that would make sense and help with such abuses is to make monsters revert to the "less patient" AI if they are poisoned (or in a cloud or whatever) 06:36:47 It drove me batshit and I thought it was just the lag to CDO 06:37:04 Consistent prompts, please 06:37:08 I've got to update an article, so let me drop out of here by recalling my proposal: make the ; command (currently looks at your current square) trigger the "pick up a partial stack". Advantage: that way it's available in console, and reasonably obscure. Drawback: it is obscure. 06:37:12 (y)es/(n)o/(a)ll/(m)enu/*?g,/q/ is better than y/n/a/m/*?g,/q I must say :) 06:37:20 Hi jpeg_ ! 06:37:23 * Napkin whispers hinted-game mode :) 06:37:28 *for CDO 06:37:47 jpeg_: I intend to reply your question about what was learned in resarching the project 06:37:48 greensnark: /me got preemptive complaints by half the dev-team, including his Snarking Highness! =) 06:37:51 Keskitalo: I agree (which is why I changed it) 06:38:05 I mean I've got trouble understanding the latter and I probably set it up that way 06:38:12 dpeg: Yeah, you just nickpinged me which is why I checked backlog 06:38:23 jpeg_: Although so far there's really just "material", no actual research paper written yet 06:38:29 ah, didn't know you also react to "Snarking Highness" :P 06:38:34 I'll use the material for my graduation thesis 06:38:54 I think I've already acknowledged I was wrong about c, and I wrote a thesis on how prompts are ok to be inconsistent *if* the extra keystroke case is the *infrequent* case 06:39:09 Keskitalo: good enough, I'm simply curious 06:39:11 greensnark: I agree that modality is usually bad... but I think that for butchery, it worked out well enough. Recall that we used to have prayer prompts, too. *shudder* 06:39:13 Which, btw, is why the new 'z' is an unmitigated disaster :P 06:39:19 dpeg: See above 06:39:22 haha 06:39:25 jpeg_: I'll reply with some interesting (hopefully) insights :) 06:39:50 jpeg_: This project was called "UKKOSS5", in a series of UKKOSS-research, UKKOSS2 was had a game project as the case (Freedroid) too 06:39:55 well, I guess I could skip the item/spell/ability prompt just in the tutorial, but wouldn't that end up confusing new players even more? 06:40:13 greensnark: regarding z, I think there are different ways to use it. I employ z so taht I don't have to count ranges. 06:40:33 That's fine, 'z' is ok if you cast about 10 spells in the entire game 06:40:48 do you guys really use Z? 06:40:51 If you use spells often having to carefully check whether you're at the prompt or not before targeting = infuriating 06:40:53 wow... 06:40:53 * dpeg slaps greensnark with a divination rod. 06:41:05 That's what 'z' forces, really 06:41:10 I have to stop and see if the prompt is there or not 06:41:13 Every time 06:41:20 (ooh, freedroid has nice new homepage) 06:41:22 So I just macro it to 'Z' which behaves sanely :P 06:41:32 oh, guess I play too slowly for that to be a problem for me 06:41:36 z .. wait .. target 06:41:43 This is quite unlike 'c', where it is very rare that I get prompted to choose a corpse 06:41:50 but then I don't play often enough to bother with macroing 06:41:53 And accidentally feeding movement keys to 'c' is not damaging 06:42:05 Because I don't do 'c' when I'm say two squares away from an ogre 06:42:10 'z' now 06:42:11