00:00:22 do you think irl god hates animals because they have premarital sex 00:00:35 do you go to heaven if you kill lots of animals 00:00:40 do irl animals have souls 00:00:47 do komodo dragons 00:00:59 zin doesn't care, he just wants them dead 00:01:05 OG17: i would like to think mine is a bit better about this: stuff is unclean if it A) does unclean things B) isn't a completely mundane normal (but filthy) animal 00:01:25 a komodo dragon bit zin once and he doesn't forgive easily 00:01:31 zin still protects you against B), he just doesn't hate them 00:01:33 if he's still against unclean stuff I don't know why he'd care about intelligence 00:02:41 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:02:44 because of the chaos aspect; stuff that truly falls within the natural order is to be shunned but not crusaded against 00:03:13 i don't think zin should encourage his followers to go out and swat mosquitos 00:03:14 it'd be better to just shift him to full-on purity of form/anti-chaos/law/whatever flavor 00:04:01 so something that's naturally unclean isn't even an issue 00:04:07 I have to agree with that. I understand the rationale behind him hating komodo dragons, but he is really more anti-chaos than anti-sickness 00:04:22 OG17: i think there's enough stuff that's unclean+unnatural out there to warrant it being a secondary category 00:04:51 unnatural's enough to upset zin 00:04:58 what else falls under unclean, anyway? 00:05:01 that's not undead or a demon 00:05:39 unclean is steal, disease, rot, hunger brands, and corpse-manipulating spells, and the walking dead, and insane things 00:05:43 or does zin only care about chaotic demons now, I don't remember 00:06:02 right, stuff like maurice is silly for where zin is currently 00:06:18 well i think AF_STEAL should be moved to be a chaotic thing 00:06:20 maurice is a thief, zin is a god of law 00:06:24 rather than unclean 00:06:30 but right now unclean and chaotic are tangled together in a stupid way 00:06:33 stealing: it's legal in pennsylvania 00:06:39 mehhh 00:06:48 I don't really see order and law as being synonymous 00:06:56 even though I said law above 00:07:02 they aren't but zin is both 00:07:19 he is, but it's sort of broad 00:07:36 I think it's the problem, it weakens both aspects 00:07:53 does the order include stealing? 00:08:27 i'd rather see zin with a pretty broad set of things he hates than be TSOized and only useful in the endgame 00:08:31 zin is also the god of wanting donations, which is also a kind of weird aspect 00:08:39 what I'm trying to say is that "purity of form" is a much grander target than "stealing" 00:08:42 because he doesn't seem to be that interested in frugality 00:08:48 or "sick lizard" 00:09:14 "whatever the opposite of chaos is" 00:09:20 law and order 00:09:22 donations are a remnant of the catholic focus too 00:09:25 law and/or order 00:09:27 s/law and order/order and law/ 00:09:28 OG17: well zin doesn't have to hate stuff for just one reason; for example, we could split out the mutator stuff from chaos 00:09:42 on the other hand, without donations, you can't get piety very easily 00:09:54 that's a basic problem with the god, though 00:10:04 ideally recite would give piety, it's no-brainer flavor 00:10:12 if there's a balanced way to get piety from recite then fuck you OG17 00:10:14 yes that is a thing that it will probably end up doing 00:10:26 :( 00:10:51 i already removed the piety cost i'd added, initially i'd wanted it to be cost but get a 'rebate' that might become a piety-earner for large groups 00:10:56 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 00:11:06 but after thinking about it more i decied it would work better if you could recite ALL THE TIME 00:11:30 (i also made reciting as loud as shouting - including taking into account whether you have shoutitis) 00:11:47 do you recite in your shouting voice? 00:11:54 yes 00:11:57 ok 00:12:05 oh, wait, you meant in range - no 00:12:16 it hits only LOS, they have to see you to be fully inspired 00:12:31 also note to self: all-caps recite text with shoutitis 3 00:13:07 what if you recite with quad damage 00:13:34 do things explode? Make things explode 00:14:08 nothing with recite currently makes stuff explode this is a pretty big oversight on my part 00:14:31 also random thought, we could make zin care about purity of mind as well as purity of body 00:14:43 so he gets mad if you become confused? 00:14:49 don't make zin give clarity 00:14:54 no, not clarity 00:14:57 that would be boring as hell 00:15:09 you're right, gods shouldn't give clarity 00:15:16 such a god would be boring 00:15:19 he'd be against yiuf but it wouldn't come up a lot 00:15:29 OG17: he already is against him i believe 00:15:35 he's against insane stuff 00:15:44 well neato 00:15:47 just right now he does not care about your mental state 00:15:54 you have to be somewhat insane to use zin in the first place, this might be a problem 00:16:02 Eronarn: what does that mean though 00:16:09 TGWiglaf: what does what mean 00:16:14 your mental state 00:16:26 it's not like there's real insanity in crawl 00:16:40 there's like confusion and basically hallucinations 00:16:42 TGWiglaf: i mean that he doesn't care if your mental state is harmed; he doesn't protect you from it; he doesn't care if you kill Mara, etc. 00:16:48 Mislead is insanity 00:17:04 I don't think so, you're just seeing things incorrectly 00:17:12 if it's insanity it's very badly flavored 00:17:18 mislead has weird flavor 00:17:24 it's the same status as hallucination from NetHack and cross-eyed-ness from Pokémon Mystery Dungeon 00:17:27 rain stops it but otherwise you need to quaff healing 00:17:29 which supports both your arguments 00:17:42 ...rain? 00:17:43 you shouldn't add another aspect to zin if it just means "resistance to mislead" 00:17:43 I have no idea why rain does anything there, that's so nethacky 00:18:17 rain making illusions melt away would be fine if it were otherwise an until-duration-ends effect 00:18:21 also I didn't know healing cured it, that's sort of weird 00:18:23 it just becomes very weird when healing 00:18:30 yes 00:18:41 yeah, it's either in your head or in the world 00:18:58 well 00:19:06 if rain made illusions melt away shouldn't it dispel shadow creatures and invisibility and stuff? 00:19:10 the illusion raises questions for that too 00:19:14 like the clones 00:19:16 evilmike: those aren't necessarily illusion spells 00:19:25 I suppose so. 00:19:41 they seem pretty illusion-y to me though 00:19:49 I always took mislead to just mean that you were, like, mislead 00:19:52 mentally 00:19:56 they are typically illusion-y magic in other games but crawl doesn't have a coherent 'illusion' mechanic 00:20:50 OG17: healing cures everything, pretty much, I'm not surprised it cures mislead 00:20:59 so invisibility might be just literally making you and your stuff completely transparent, at the level of the properties of your constituent substances 00:21:09 maybe it's an oversight 00:21:19 or, i should say 00:21:25 that is basically what it is, since it makes OTR pass through you 00:21:41 Eronarn: yeah that makes sense, plus that justifies why it makes you glow so much 00:21:49 if invisibility has a hex aspect it's going to be clouding stuff's mind 00:21:59 at least if you want it to make any sense 00:22:01 (though this also means it makes no sense for invis to be broken by corona but WHATEVER) 00:22:10 blargh 00:22:25 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:22:28 well no, because you'd see the light around something that isn't there either way 00:22:47 i mean TSO style corona 00:22:51 the spell is fine, yes 00:23:03 it's the same thing 00:23:20 and if it's not you can fudge it with "divine power" 00:23:21 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 00:23:21 -!- paxed has quit [Changing host] 00:23:21 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 00:23:33 corona spell = you make something glow, TSO corona = you are glowing and illuminate your surroundings 00:24:02 so the light makes some sort of effect on something that's not there 00:24:20 sure but then why does OTR go through invisible things harmlessly and without corona-ing them 00:24:27 I don't have a canon explanation but I don't think it's a problem 00:24:30 maybe the invisiblity spell doesn't make you perfectly invisible, and it becomes obvious under really bright light 00:24:35 otr is just inconsistent 00:24:41 it's an inconsistency, it's not a huge one but it is one 00:25:40 maybe OTR should just briefly reveal invisible things, this would work well if there were the 'you noticed an invis thing here' ~s 00:25:49 due, were healing potions supposed to cure mislead? And rain? 00:25:49 point: invisibility should make you blind. 00:25:54 OG17: yes. 00:25:54 explaining both is difficult 00:26:13 healing potions cure confusion and poison and a few other status effects so curing mislead makes sense. 00:26:16 rain, just 'cos. 00:26:24 due: we have ENCH_BLIND, get to it 00:26:31 :p 00:26:47 and ENCH_MUTE! just think of it 00:26:48 it could be that the rain's affecting the character, not the illusions 00:26:51 healing potions should cure blind too 00:26:52 like it clears your head 00:26:57 you can make a patch saying that you made 'silence less common on panlords' 00:26:58 though it's still nethacky 00:27:27 rain can go 00:27:40 i did rain clearing away illusions because it just seemed fcool 00:28:09 due: what about making rain clear away mara's illusions and mirror images 00:28:43 that pretty much trivializes things 00:28:46 hmm, what about illusions are made by projecting light, rain refracts them beyond recognisability? 00:28:46 even if it's just one god 00:28:53 so they're obviously fake? 00:29:48 it it's light, potions wouldn't do anything 00:30:09 well, potions don't clear illusions, do they? 00:30:11 though it seems clear that mislead and clones are somehow implicitly different flavorwise 00:30:16 OG17: solution: remove fedhas 00:30:21 and beogh 00:30:28 and zin 00:30:29 and chei 00:30:33 rain can just go instead 00:30:45 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 00:30:55 losing the rain/mislead link would make things neater, yeah 00:31:18 wait, rain cures mislead? 00:31:21 I doubt anyone's ever used it 00:31:53 I would rather just remove the rain curnig mislead. 00:32:04 wow the crd signup page is like something out of the 90s 00:33:08 actually, does rain still cure mislead? 00:33:12 can't get it to work 00:33:23 I do not know, it may be broken. 00:33:54 I think so 00:34:34 jpeg broke it 00:34:59 greensnark, did you see that gretell lost cao-only uniques? 00:35:04 @?norbert 00:35:05 unknown monster: "norbert" 00:35:18 Yes, because it has to be recompiled for 0.7 and it's too much hassle 00:35:34 oh 00:36:24 There are cao-only uniques? 00:36:25 @??norbert 00:36:26 unknown monster: "norbert" 00:36:36 Norbert is a CAO-only unique? wow. 00:36:44 ??norbert 00:36:44 norbert[1/1]: Used to be a wimp in 0.5. Slightly scarier in 0.6, since he spawns at literally half the depth and monster shields are better. Gone in 0.8 trunk. 00:36:48 Oh. 00:36:56 and francis at least 00:36:57 oh right, I thought you meant norbert was a raxism. 00:37:05 oh, no 00:57:39 03greensnark * r6d61462e27c7 10/crawl-ref/source/ (cloud.cc cloud.h view.cc): is_harmless_cloud should not match rain, fixed. 01:29:20 Yo, Arcane marksman book is sorta silly 01:29:40 After the hexes charms split. 01:31:55 is hex/charms split on CDO or 01:32:10 Eronarn: yes 01:32:13 I'm playing on CDO, yes. 01:32:13 ??book of brands 01:32:14 book of brands[1/1]: Corona, Swiftness, Fire Brand, Freezing Aura, Poison Weapon, Cause Fear. 01:32:19 What are the changes? 01:32:36 Everything except for corona and cause fear is charms 01:32:37 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:32:43 those two are hexes 01:33:00 You only start with charms skill 01:33:25 corona should be a ranged accuracy buff 01:33:27 or something 01:33:40 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 01:34:36 personally i think it would be cool to give them one hex book and one charms book 01:34:48 a brand that lets you fire without using ammo would be neat and useful but that's harder 01:36:05 it would be fair if it did less damage or cost 1 mp per arrow or something like that 01:36:21 OG17: heck, need not even be a brand: L1, fires an arrow scaling with spellpower, otherwise completely normal attack 01:36:28 that way you can use at the same time as brands 01:36:31 something, yeah 01:36:37 the idea is that you don't use it with brands 01:36:38 Eronarn: ooh, I like that 01:37:01 I mean maybe it could work out with them but I don't know 01:37:08 AM badly needs a create-ammo spell, regardless of whether it's implemented as firing without ammo, branding to fire without ammo, or literally creating ammo 01:37:10 not being able to use it at the same time as brands is bad because 3 of their spells are brands 01:37:12 also that's too conjurationish anyway 01:37:27 well yeah, you'd choose between using ammo or using real brands 01:37:34 the last is probably a bad idea as it could basically be danced 01:37:39 (hi Nemelex!) 01:38:28 or you know what I mean 01:38:52 OG17: i don't think it's too conjuration-ish, and i think it's fine if they can use both. AM don't generally have tons of MP, particularly not early on 01:39:29 casting a spell to fire a magic arrow is conjuration as heck 01:39:59 OG17: you pull back your bow, even though it's empty, and an arrow suddenly appears - p. charmy, in fact, this has been a property of enchanted weapons in the past 01:40:29 that's what the brand would do, yes 01:40:37 i don't think that anything is gained by making it a brand 01:40:40 it comes across pretty differently if you're conjuring every arrow 01:41:08 I don't want people using it with venom brand 01:41:14 and the like 01:41:16 why not 01:41:28 because why wouldn't you 01:41:40 by the time you can cast both it's not like you're particularly short on arrows 01:41:50 rather decide between saving ammo and using good brands 01:41:51 also because it costs MP which you do not have that much of 01:41:56 that's not a given 01:42:16 you could kite with poison all day long 01:42:38 yes but AM can already do that right now with swiftness, once they kill their first few centaurs 01:42:44 they do not have the mana to do what you are describing at that point 01:42:51 not everyone uses bows 01:43:05 this would be their L1 spell 01:43:11 that regens as you step back 01:43:57 solution: give AM a small amount of hexes, moving on. 01:44:05 boring!! 01:44:34 and you're still stuck as a ranged class that needs to be really stingy with ranged attacks 01:45:55 damn I like this 01:46:11 there's also little reason to train hexes if the pay-off is cause fear 01:46:24 and cause fear itself could be reflavored as a charm 01:46:37 like some sort of glamour/illusion 01:46:59 Yes buff Arcane Marksman please 01:47:55 guess I'll wiki this sooner or later 01:48:18 I like fire arrow as an L1 AM spell; sort of like portal projectile in reverse 01:48:53 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:49:36 one idea i had a while ago for an AM spell: you summon a floating two-sided portal to hover in front of you; it's a shield with reflection you can use with your bow, and while it's in place, you can fire as if you were using portal projectile 01:50:05 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 01:50:10 ais523: will not happen 01:50:31 That would be so epic I would cry 01:50:33 hmm, it was being discussed earlier 01:51:43 ais523: "magic arrows" have already been suggested before and as far as I recall the idea was rejected, sorry. 01:51:51 ZChris13: i doubt it would be particularly hard to code either since it's three existing effects mushed together 01:52:01 I don't like that passive smiteshield thing but AM could use some unique stuff, yeah 01:52:17 Eronarn: I like magic shield though. 01:52:19 maybe it was a different context? I'll check before I write this 01:52:23 whenever that is 01:52:29 pretty sure it was wrt summoning up ammo 01:52:32 ais523: I think it's on the list with venom weapons poisoning corpses, selling stuff in shops 01:52:44 around the time we removed poison ammo as a permabrand 01:52:47 hmm, aren't those two on entirely different lists? 01:52:50 was that quivers? 01:53:03 I don't think anything like this is on that list 01:53:05 ais523: No, they're on the "you will not get dpeg to agree to it" :) 01:53:08 making physical ammo would be different too 01:53:08 the first is "it makes flavour sense but would be incredibly annoying if we actually implemented it", the second is "it makes grinding optimal" 01:53:34 ais523: the list is "things which people suggest over and over and over again but have been rejected and reconsidered so many times that we just automatically dismiss them" 01:53:36 Nobody wants "Let us have AM make ammo from nothing with spell" 01:53:38 making physical ammo would be different (and bad) 01:53:41 due: ah 01:53:49 I'm surprised that selling is suggested so often 01:53:58 ais523: lots of other games have it so people expect crawl to 01:54:00 making physical ammo is little different than a spell that stacks with other brands 01:54:02 they don't think about what it adds to the game 01:54:03 as it clearly completely breaks Crawl's item generation algos 01:54:10 save for the enchantment arrow damage bonus 01:54:24 OG17: except for the part where they're completely different i guess, sure 01:54:30 clarification: summoning ammunition or permananent ammunition are on the list 01:54:36 how are they different 01:54:48 but you can't sac them to nelemex 01:54:53 That's how it's different 01:54:56 OG17: one is an attack spell you use with your bow skill; the other makes ammo you can use with your bow whenever 01:55:04 due: I wasn't suggesting summoning ammo, that's obviously a bad idea 01:55:10 ais523: okay, that's fine then 01:55:22 Nobody was suggesting summoning ammo 01:55:27 the suggestion, which came up in-channel from someone else, was an L1 spell that fired one arrow from an unbranded bow, even if you had none in inventory 01:55:32 and which presumably always mulched 01:55:37 magic dart isn't broken but magic dart would be broken if you could cast it 30 times in advance and then use it for 0 MP later on 01:55:38 ais523: oh, i like that. 01:55:47 don't know what list this is, but summoning ammo isn't really the same thing 01:55:50 the huge difference being that you have to have the MP on hand right now 01:55:58 whereas summoning ammo you can just victory dance 01:56:09 it's better as a brand than as a pseudomagicdart 01:56:13 ais523: so it's basically a re-agent spell? 01:56:22 what? 01:56:28 i disagree; AM really don't need to have *four* brands in their starting book 01:56:46 due: hmm, ? 01:56:48 they do if one brand interacts interesting way with the others 01:56:48 if it's usable with brands you actually have more than one thing you can do in combat 01:56:54 (in a) 01:56:54 ais523: you actually need the arrow to cast it? 01:57:04 the idea is that you don't need any ammo 01:57:08 You need no arrow. You need a bow. and a target. 01:57:12 oh, doing it that way round would be interesting too, but that's basically Portal Projectile 01:57:13 because AM currently always runs out of ammo 01:57:13 and the spell 01:57:23 OG17: you're playing AM wrong!! 01:57:29 don't use your bow to kill everything 01:57:32 What? 01:57:35 You're crazy 01:57:37 what I meant was a spell that let you fire your bow when out of ammo, but requiring an MP cost each time, which avoids the issues with actual ammo summoning 01:57:38 ZChris13: this is a direct damage spell? 01:57:44 I dunno? 01:57:52 Everyone is talking cross purposes. 01:57:53 as there's actually a cost in combat for it 01:58:01 It's either a brand or a conj spell that uses your bow. 01:58:10 yes, you can (and have to) conserve ammo, but this is supposed to be a ranged class 01:58:13 rather than pre-combat like summon ammo would be 01:58:14 ais523: Hm, then I'm not so sure. I would need to talk to dpeg about it. 01:58:30 OG17: one thing I would say is, AM would probably be more fun if the ammo situation wasn't so random 01:58:34 due: my proposal: exactly the same as firing an arrow, but costs 1 MP. does not require you to have an arrow. works with brands. starts at +0, possibly (but not necessarily) scales with spellpower. 01:58:43 Eronarn: meh. 01:58:49 again, it should be a brand 01:58:54 It would make AM not suck 01:58:57 Eronarn: again, how is that not summoning ammunition? 01:59:02 ZChris13: am do not suck 01:59:08 due: you can't stack it up in advance; you have to use it the turn you want to use it 01:59:09 due: summoning ammunition would let you use the ammunition later 01:59:13 okay. 01:59:23 it is summoning an arrow to use in the same turn. 01:59:24 thus, you could get a huge stack out of battle in Temple or somewhere, regenerate the MP, and fire it in-battle 01:59:27 and AM have pretty limited MP for the point in time during wihch they also have limited ammo 01:59:39 whereas summoning an arrow to use this turn requires you to spend MP during combat 01:59:40 a brand creates the choice of "use real ammo with a real brand" or "fire without using ammo" 01:59:53 rather than "pretend you're using sting" 01:59:53 OG17: i don't think that's an interesting choice 02:00:06 of course it is, you're sacrificing damage for a finite resource 02:00:17 finite* *for like 4 dungeon levels 02:00:26 spanner for works: slings, javelins 02:00:37 if you have a bow or sling, and the very start of the game is the problem with the class regardless 02:00:48 slings are fine 02:00:54 i do not like the idea myself because it basically gives you infinite ammunition for as long as you can regain mp. 02:00:58 OG17: again you're playing them wrong, don't try to kill stuff with your launcher on d1 02:01:04 then why are you an AM 02:01:09 which bypasses the whole point of ammunition being a scarce resource 02:01:21 due: that ship has sailed a long time ago (around the time you met your first centaur) 02:01:24 well, what fun is a playstyle you aren't allowed to use? 02:01:27 this is why it should be a brand, so that ammo stays useful 02:01:39 OG17: I agree that it shouldn't stack with branding 02:01:59 also can we stop pretending that some races don't start with crossbows 02:02:15 !lg . race=DD role=AM 02:02:15 36. Eronarn the Bolt Thrower (L3 DDAM), slain by an ooze on D:2 on 2010-11-24, with 184 points after 1610 turns and 0:04:18. 02:02:21 !lg . race=DD role=AM xl>10 02:02:21 3. Eronarn the Quickloader (L11 DDAM), worshipper of Ashenzari, quit the game on D:11 on 2010-10-17, with 13952 points after 17485 turns and 2:14:26. 02:02:26 !lg . race=DD role=AM xl>10 -2 02:02:26 2. Eronarn the Reanimator (L16 DDAM), worshipper of Kikubaaqudgha, slain by a white ugly thing on D:18 on 2009-11-21, with 112099 points after 51341 turns and 6:24:20. 02:02:29 !lg . race=DD role=AM xl>10 -3 02:02:30 1. Eronarn the Necromancer (L18 DDAM), worshipper of Kikubaaqudgha, blasted by a dragon (blast of flame) on D:19 on 2009-11-18, with 200224 points after 60219 turns and 7:40:23. 02:02:49 ~just saying~ 02:02:55 maybe there'd be more if they didn't need a handful of bolts to last them until yaktaurs or lucky floor spawns 02:03:06 also no one plays AM anyway 02:03:08 come to think of it, a spell that fired a temporarily summoned arrow from an unbranded bow (without needing an arrow) is almost exactly just a conjuration 02:03:13 just one that requires you to wield a bow to work 02:03:13 perhaps for similar reasons 02:03:29 ais523: the second part: kind of matters! 02:03:33 also no one plays AM anyway <--- exactly, it's because they have a defined playstyle that you're not allowed to use more than about 10% of the time 02:03:35 this is why evaporate is not a conjuration 02:03:35 Eronarn: indeed 02:03:36 yes, it's conjurations as hell 02:03:45 evaporate launches a potion 02:04:00 ais523: hi, thanks. 02:04:04 evaporate is a spell that conjures a damaging cloud 02:04:07 sounds pretty conjure-y to me 02:04:16 Eronarn: er, no. 02:04:22 Eronarn: well, what other conjurations create a persistent effect? 02:04:23 except that it uses a potion 02:04:26 Eronarn: evaporate is a spell that boils a potion and then expands it into a cloud. 02:04:29 fire storm, tornado, are there any others? 02:04:31 Yes 02:04:33 Eronarn: the spell effect is determined by the potion. 02:04:39 Tornado isn't a conj 02:04:45 ah 02:04:47 Freezing cloud, 02:04:50 meph 02:04:56 why is meph a conjuration again? 02:04:57 Spell schools are a mess though. 02:05:04 conjure flame, poisounous cloud 02:05:10 Things are arbitrarily conjurations when they really shouldn't be 02:05:16 Yup 02:05:18 anyways radical proposal: make it summ/charms 02:05:19 ais523: To make it a three-spell school and thus more difficult. 02:05:21 not really 02:05:26 due: indeed, I think that's the real reason 02:05:26 meph is conjuring the gas 02:05:32 hex/poison/air would make more sense, IMO 02:05:36 conjure flame is conjuring flame 02:05:37 etc 02:05:47 OG17: a lesson from D&D, that Crawl takes to heart, is that you can flavour pretty much any spell as anything 02:05:56 Thing are also arbitrarily transmutations/earth because people are obsessed that anything involving earth must also involve tmut. 02:06:02 Yup 02:06:03 Oh that reminds me to fix sticks to snakes. 02:06:03 conj having the clouds works pretty well in practice 02:06:11 due: with the throwing thing? 02:06:17