00:15:48 okay, visitors soon yay! 00:53:31 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:21:22 kilobyte: I'm planning to work on the Lua thing sometime today. It shouldn't take more than an hour or two 01:22:21 greensnark: "Lua" thing? 01:22:47 <+kilobyte> greensnark: could you estimate how long would it take to get portable lua saves? 01:22:53 Ohh. 01:22:59 Right, yes. 01:25:29 Okay, so I'm thinking the easiest short-term solution for vault-defined monsters being accessible via @??, etc... 01:26:31 Parse all of the Lua definitions, from that generate a list of unique monster specs, then write the output to a file. The output would be formatted so that it contains a std::map where the first string is the monster name generate by that spec, and the second is the actual spec. 01:27:04 Then @?? can look up that map if the mapspec monster creation doesn't work. 01:29:40 -!- murphy_slaw__ has joined ##crawl-dev 01:39:55 -!- murphy_slaw___ has joined ##crawl-dev 01:40:48 -!- murphy_slaw__ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:46:13 -!- murphy_slaw___ has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:48:43 due: Yeah, that can be done as long as the monster spec is not conditional 01:49:09 I don't think any of them are 01:49:15 You do also have to worry about where the monster thing finds the .des files and where it compiles the .des files and stuff 01:49:27 Because currently it's just a standalone executable with no data files 01:49:31 Yes, I know. 01:49:57 The Makefile can take care of this. 01:50:10 And I can just modify the specified data path... 01:50:43 -!- murphy_slaw__ has joined ##crawl-dev 01:55:45 Go for it! 01:57:40 Yeah 01:57:47 Just a qeustion of how best to parse the data. 01:59:50 No need to special case that, just run the standard map parser, check each map for custom monsters 02:00:07 That's actually not enough, I don't think 02:00:20 Why so 02:01:44 It won't catch custor monsters created in Lua preludes, etc. 02:02:12 Presumably those custom monsters are actually used in some map, else why are they defined 02:02:28 And if they're used in the map, running the map's Lua code will make them inspectible in the map 02:02:48 What about instances where custom monsters are created via triggerables? 02:02:57 I suppose those can just be modified to define the monster twice. 02:03:00 Those will indeed not be caught 02:03:19 Once at parse-time in the scope of the map, and once when run (or use the spec before). 02:03:48 Really need Lua monster defs :P 02:03:55 hah 02:08:59 The other option was to write something that iterated over every .des file and found every monster definition, but then, like you said, that means it doesn't respond to if/else mechanism... 02:09:03 Heh, today's Dilbert: http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2011-01-09/ 02:09:27 * due click. 02:11:47 Hehehe. 02:11:57 Meh, will go with using the map parser. :D 02:29:21 !messages 02:29:21 (1/2) dpeg said (1w 5h 37m 42s ago): Randomise your Sokobons! 02:29:31 !messages 02:29:31 (1/1) dpeg said (8h 35m 44s ago): "Having said that, I've seriously taken to Crawl. It's telling when you log onto nethack.alt.org and wonder why autoexplore isn't working." 02:30:18 :D 02:30:25 FR: implement autoexplore into nethack 02:38:37 !tell dpeg we're working on it 02:38:38 bhaak: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 02:38:52 he'll won't remember what I'm talking about :) 02:40:04 !tell dpeg "I used to play Nethack in tiles mode, but not lately, because UnNethack doesn't support tiles, so I got used to ASCII again..." so, crawl is better than NAO and UnNetHack is better than crawl? 02:40:04 bhaak: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 02:43:00 moin 02:43:33 kilobyte, yes, I wanted to do naming of level chunks by level_id::current().describe(), but I wasn't sure how to handle compatibility 02:56:33 bhaak: The annoying thing with autoexplore in NetHackk at least is that you have to stop every two steps to searc hwhile in corridors. 02:57:09 kilobyte, another issue is that get_level_filename is also used for bones files' filenames 02:59:20 kilobyte, I'm not sure how well the : in filenames would work out on various crazy platforms like windows 02:59:34 due: huh? because of secret corridors squares? I removed that from unnethack 03:02:36 bhaak: I sould play unnethack :D 03:05:20 I only program to please crawl developers :) 03:08:46 :D 03:08:50 as it should be, clearly ;) 03:31:34 -!- murphy_slaw__ has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 03:33:55 -!- Kurper has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:50:39 -!- monky has quit [Quit: hello] 04:18:35 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 04:18:44 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 04:33:15 -!- ortoslon has quit [Quit: bye] 04:38:36 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:09:56 -!- ahpla has quit [*.net *.split] 05:09:56 -!- kilobyte has quit [*.net *.split] 05:09:56 -!- Sequell has quit [*.net *.split] 05:09:57 -!- dazzle has quit [*.net *.split] 05:11:50 -!- dazzle has joined ##crawl-dev 05:12:00 -!- ahpla has joined ##crawl-dev 05:12:00 -!- kilobyte has joined ##crawl-dev 05:12:00 -!- Sequell has joined ##crawl-dev 05:32:23 -!- Guest13151 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:36:02 -!- Guest13151 has joined ##crawl-dev 05:38:53 03greensnark * rb482a162a008 10/crawl-ref/source/shout.cc: Fix broken html tag in noise grid dump. 05:39:32 moin! 05:39:42 due: ping! 05:49:50 hi Napkin :) 05:50:30 it's okay, I spoke to greensnark 05:50:45 ? 05:50:49 !coffee Napkin 05:50:49 * Henzell hands Napkin a mug of irish coffee, brewed by Snorg. 05:50:58 about @?? then? great :) 05:51:04 about @?? :) 05:51:04 Ah 05:51:05 there's a public repository too 05:51:11 i've got a copy already, thanks 05:51:12 hey greensnark - thanks :D 05:51:22 Oh hey, due said he was doing it :P 05:51:31 don't forget to update the public one later too though, please 05:51:34 i'm still torn between rippin gall the mons: etc specs out of the .des files with perl or python or something 05:51:44 and iterating over the vdefs 05:52:09 they each have positives and negatives 05:52:29 vdefs is problematic for monsters created upon triggers 05:52:33 hehe, decisions, decisions ;) 05:52:51 Using a Perl script would be way simpler but might need updates now and then 05:52:58 Doing it in Python would be, uh, more painful :P 05:53:01 well, it won't be Perl ;) 05:53:06 why more painful? 05:53:13 Python re module makes you jump through flaming hoops for simple matches 05:53:22 hah 05:53:25 Perl's support is way more tightly integrated 05:53:28 it's not that bad at all 05:53:29 import re 05:53:31 Oh it is 05:53:42 mons_searcher = re.compile("blah") 05:53:45 I've used Python quite a bit and regex is about 10x easier in Perl 05:53:52 hey, no flamewar before my first coffee is over :-* 05:54:06 I like Python for lots of other things, but regexp is totally not one of them :P 05:54:13 Even Ruby is better than Python in that department :P 05:54:21 for spec in mons_searcher.findall(des_file): 05:54:37 Yes, three lines for what Perl does in one :P 05:54:41 so? 05:54:53 you can make it two (or less if you are using other imports) 05:54:55 So the point is you end up writing more code than you need to 05:55:00 re.compile("Blah").findall(.des file) 05:55:11 Sorry, that's just suck compared to Perl :) 05:55:17 * due shrugs. 05:55:29 I like Python too 05:55:30 I don't find it all that bad 05:55:37 but I don't use regular expressions that often 05:55:41 I just don't try to pretend that it's re support is more clumsy compared to Perl 05:55:47 *is not more clumsy :P 05:57:03 /home has 81gb space left ;) 05:58:37 maybe I should update the gods welcome messages in the wordpress? 05:58:55 could someone link me to the current sentences in the source? 05:58:55 Napkin: Is that 81G good or bad? Can't make out :P 05:59:02 greensnark: I don't agree with it myself because they tend to promote clumsy stuff in other instances, but the "Pythonic" movement emphasises Python's current implementation of regular expressions as "good" 05:59:10 enough for perl and python, greensnark :D 05:59:29 greensnark: but they also say that "try: , except : " is better than "if isinstance(variable, something): else: " 05:59:33 due: Oh, the Pythonic movement gets a lot of stuff right, but not everything :P 05:59:45 Napkin: Ok, ok! 05:59:47 I personally use isintance everywhere 05:59:53 ;) 05:59:59 * due cuddles Napkin. 06:00:12 !send Napkin Xykon plushie 06:00:12 Sending Xykon plushie to Napkin. 06:00:18 lol 06:00:20 anyway, it'll have to be later on during the week 06:00:26 officially back at work from tomorrow :( 06:00:27 and now you make me google again! grrrr... ;> 06:00:40 Oh, you don't read OOTS? :P 06:00:43 You should! 06:00:52 link me, link me! 06:01:22 due: look at the bright side - you actually _had_ holidays :) 06:01:33 http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html But Xykon doesn't show up until a little way in 06:02:18 OOTS first two strips always struck me as weird. It wasn't until #3 that I thought I might like it 06:02:50 hehe 06:03:46 there's a lot of D&D references, especially in very early strips before a story was added... but it's ok to read even if you don't have a clue about that 06:04:13 Napkin: actually, I did, and they were awesome :) 06:04:24 Napkin: two and a half weeks of accomplishing things, yay yay yay! 06:04:31 :)) 06:04:58 OOTS is too D&D and RPG for me :) 06:05:08 * greensnark shoots bhaak for heresy. 06:05:26 although I like the occasional strip I get pointed to. But I don't read the whole stuff :) 06:05:55 I really like http://www.darthsanddroids.net/ 06:06:37 bhaak: except for those early ones which are nothing but a RPG parody, there's not that much D&D 06:06:59 I haven't read darthsanddroids, but it strikes me as a game parody too 06:07:04 Does github do mailing lists? 06:07:42 hmm, guys? how do I see the current welcome messages of the gods? 06:07:55 kilobyte: darthsanddroids is a retelling of the star wars saga by a classic role playing group, in a universe where there was no George Lucas 06:07:58 Napkin: oh 06:08:10 grep by "says:" ? 06:08:32 Napkin: no... 06:08:43 Napkin: dat/database/godspeak.txt ? 06:08:44 Napkin: they're in a db file now 06:08:47 yea 06:09:04 but there are a lot more messages than the welcome messages in it now 06:09:17 Napkin: The " welcome" keys have the welcome messages 06:09:31 grepping by "says:" actually looks goot 06:09:38 *good 06:10:25 Napkin: I think that also finds the Okie penance line :P 06:11:08 judging by welcome, Okawaru, Sif Muna, TSO, Trog and Zin are missing the @xxx welcome@ line 06:11:17 judging by "welcome", Okawaru, Sif Muna, TSO, Trog and Zin are missing the @xxx welcome@ line 06:11:36 eh? "Zin says: Spread the light, my child." 06:12:12 grep "welcome" godspeak.txt will show "@ welcome@" and " welcome" - but for those only " welcome" 06:12:34 no bug, I hope? 06:12:38 Napkin: The "@foo@" is an internal link to another key 06:12:50 The "^ welcome$" is the actual key 06:13:17 erm.. ok 06:13:57 "^ newgame$" too 06:14:05 so.. well, internal link to another value? - so the mentioned gods only have one while the others have more than one then? 06:14:13 breakfast! o/ 06:14:21 although newgame falls back to welcome if not defined (ie, in all cases but Xom currently) 06:14:33 Germans breakfast at distinctly odd times by my reckoning 06:15:04 greensnark: are you going to tell me you never ate dinner at 4? 06:15:08 I make that past 1pm in Germany, not exactly classic breakfast time 06:15:22 kilobyte: No, if I eat dinner at that time I generally call it breakfast :P 06:15:53 I see it's 7C in Berlin. Toasty :P 06:16:09 28C here :P 06:16:26 I call meals by their content and their relation to my daily cycle at the time. 06:16:43 greensnark: breakfast time is after you stand up after sleeping. It's obvious that Napkin has been sleeping till now and that his elizabot was active this mornging 06:16:44 sadly, regular work means you can't shift that arbitrarily anymore :p 06:17:14 bhaak: This may surprise you, but Napking can actually carry on a coherent conversation in his sleep 06:17:23 That's why we call him Napking 06:17:28 :D 06:17:56 Plus half the time I type Napkin it emerges with a g at the end spontaneously 06:18:06 :) 06:19:53 :D 06:33:30 Ahhhhh... re! :D 06:35:27 so then, a grep -A2 "welcome$" godspeak.txt should do it? 06:36:44 greensnarking: you may call it brunch by time, but the content definitely made it breakfast :D yummy! 06:37:07 greensnark, noise propagation looks so nice in the debug html dumps 06:37:23 Zaba: Thanks :) 06:37:31 Napkin: I think Xom uses the 'newgame$' key 06:37:48 oh right, he's missing 06:38:46 > egrep "welcome$|newgame$" godspeak.txt | wc -l 06:38:47 18 06:38:54 is that correct? 18 gods? 06:39:14 Sounds about right 06:39:20 awesome, thanks :) 06:39:26 after I've seen the noise propagation dumps, I went "so greensnark went with xterm-256 colors" for a long time before realizing what is going on :p 06:39:43 (which might be argument for adding that to Crawl) 06:39:48 I'm wondering.. should I include the "ABC says:" on the main-page? it's a bit weird to be welcomed by "Kill them all!" 06:39:51 s/be /be an / 06:39:55 256 color terms are awesome for roguelikes 06:40:13 Provided you don't rely on subtle color distinctions for things that are important to distinguish, of course 06:40:14 too bad there's no way to detect this automatically 06:40:25 and terminals which do not support this fail badly 06:40:52 thanks to terminally misdesigned control codes for the new colors 06:43:11 Damn, it would be so nice if Lua functions knew what their names are 06:43:36 Python functions know their names (unless anonymous) and that can be so handy 06:45:53 Hey, Mu's Crypt is fancy 06:48:21 done 06:48:51 greensnark: yes it's so useful 06:51:33 that crypt map was the first vault i ever made :P 06:53:41 Mu_: I, uh, have not ever seen it in-game apart from wizmode :( 06:53:46 03galehar * rbc44f61e1b9f 10/crawl-ref/source/initfile.cc: Don't detach the command tab by default. 06:53:56 !lg * crypt:5 s=map 06:53:56 232 games for * (crypt:5): 199x , 16x cryptofortress bobbens, 12x quadcrypt mu, 4x church of pain bobbens, 1x david glass crypt 06:54:04 Not bad on the kill count though :P 06:54:08 nice 06:55:11 due: Is TriggerableFunction documented somewhere in the level-design docs? 06:55:36 Aha, triggerables.txt 06:55:49 greensnark: Yes. 06:55:54 It's a bit of a waffley affle but meh 06:55:56 anyay, sleep bye! 06:56:00 Gnight 07:05:03 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 08:03:19 03galehar * r2e9663a4a7d0 10/crawl-ref/source/ (tilesdl.cc tilesdl.h): Tiles: automatically zoom the minimap to fill available space. 08:05:00 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 08:27:47 03greensnark 07lua-free-saves * r28dd35ec67aa 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/clua/ (5 files): Fix ziggurat onclimb using raw Lua functions. 08:27:50 03greensnark 07lua-free-saves * rc5eef457bfbb 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/clua/ (lm_1way.lua lm_timed.lua): Fix TimedMarker crashes. 08:43:49 greensnark: <3 08:44:25 03greensnark 07lua-free-saves * r588c147a3179 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/clua/lm_door.lua: Fix RestrictDoor and LockDoor not being registered as markers. 08:44:30 03greensnark 07lua-free-saves * r226254622ae0 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/clua/ (11 files): Remove need to explicitly register marker classes. 08:44:44 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 08:45:06 Lua cleanup mostly done :) 08:45:12 Just need to test a few of the more involved vaults 08:45:25 It can only be merged when we next bump major version though 08:45:27 Zaba: I hope branchizing Zig isn't on your list of dislikes for unifying lua and C++ branches 08:45:44 greensnark: of course, lemme do the other bumpy changes 08:46:19 kilobyte, it is. 08:46:50 or well. Depends on what exactly you mean. 08:47:01 it can be done in a way that I wouldn't like, for sure :P 08:48:13 I do not want to see zig turned into a branch with the current branch system 08:49:06 Hah "There is a portal leading out of here here." 08:49:16 I'm all for having zigs handled without ugly hacks, though 08:51:32 Ok, everything seems to work 08:51:50 There'll probably be minor things I've missed, but that's trunk for you :P 08:51:52 greensnark, awesome 08:54:41 -!- cw_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:24:11 Zaba: what I mean is: 1. having the depth as the normal depth rather than a lua variable somewhere (so level_id knows about it, things that use depth can obtain it the normal way, ghosts can keep their depth, etc), 2. having it a branch different than portal vaults, 3. keeping the entrance/leaving semantics, of course 09:25:53 Im curious, has the game slowdown in recent trunk versions of tiles been addressed? I havent been able to play since 4271 09:30:33 kilobyte, if it dynamically registers the branch through lua or something, that would be fine by me 09:33:08 Is this a tiles-only slowdown 09:34:43 Zaba: dynamically registering such things might be ok for single-level ones, but Ziggurats have many, and lots of special code 09:35:19 I only play tiles, I would assume more people would be having problems if it affected other versions 09:35:39 Theres a bug report about it somewhere on the site 09:36:10 -!- cw_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:36:47 it starts out like a normal game then it just gets slower and slower until travelling feels like its on delay 1000 and you need to quit 09:37:20 Crash when creating new character after using arena (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3177) by Regnix 09:37:21 -!- cw_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:37:53 according to the br it's only in tiles 09:38:09 kilobyte, hardcoding zigs and calling it a day is hardly a way to improve things in a long run, though 09:38:22 oh there's a fix already, sort of 09:38:34 oh? 09:38:36 it's an issue with the command tab, so disabling that helps 09:38:48 ahh thanks. I wondered about that 09:39:02 how is that hardcoding and not removing duplications (while fixing bugs caused by that)? 09:40:41 -!- cw_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:44:19 Ziggurats duplicate the whole depth system, poorly 09:48:59 that means portal vaults should be allowed to integrate into the existing depth system 09:51:05 I didn't plan on that, but it might be a good idea, too 10:07:44 MarvinPA: Your 1/9 rune chance is actually 1/10 :P 10:15:44 03zaba * r74a10821f7aa 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/ (5 files in 2 dirs): Correct the 1 in 100 chance for non-granite statue for 'F' glyph in vaults. 10:16:32 would it be good to pull monster enums out of enum.h? 10:17:49 greensnark: damn, i checked in here and got conflicting answers as to whether i'd done it right or not 10:18:15 Also I'm not sure the all-rune speedrunners are going to love you for this change :P 10:18:39 the documentation elsewhere says that G:100 F:1 gives a 1/100 chance of F, else G 10:18:41 or something like that 10:18:47 yeah, probably not :P 10:19:14 G:100 F:1 is a 1/101 chance of F, yes 10:19:25 hah okay 10:19:29 docs for F have been fixed recently 10:20:11 ah yes, so i see 10:20:31 So I'm not sure whether to take this patch; on the one hand it makes things less spoily, on the other it increases the aggravation of finding the demonic rune 10:20:32 greensnark: actually, the new vaults make ninjaing the rune trivial 10:20:52 -!- enne has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:20:53 kilobyte: Assuming the vault has the rune, you mean 10:20:59 a lot of the different vaults would be easier, yeah 10:21:26 hmm. 10:22:20 it would make finding the demonic rune a bit harder, that's sort of pan's fault for being so boring as it is though :( 10:23:37 Yeah, Pan sucks 10:23:43 We should limit it to 5 levels :P 10:24:37 Did dpeg ok this rune patch 10:24:44 it's not a problem with Pan, it's one with Zigs 10:24:50 dpeg and due said they like the concept 10:24:56 It's a problem with Pan as well 10:25:14 I agree Zigs are farmville, but players used to farm Pan long before zigs showed up 10:25:26 what's wrong with allowing them to farm though 10:25:31 not like it improves their chances to win 10:25:32 zigs should just be announced portals in pan 10:25:41 they just like farming 10:25:46 for those who really want to go to the effort of multi-zigging 10:26:31 make them announced and timed even! so you can get the fun chase for the portal like with labs and bazaars 10:26:36 except with 1s and liches everywhere 10:26:38 Well, I think zigs are pretty useless given all the broken high end spells 10:26:50 Like Borg and Sublimation and crap :P 10:27:10 * greensnark is delicately not mentioning the brand new OP spells 10:27:21 -!- cw_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:27:23 Essentially it's unlimited free loot 10:27:30 yeah, people clearing 20+ zigs in a game with certain new spells is maybe a little off :P 10:28:57 they're very fun otherwise though, and even with crazy broken spells you're bound to get into a nasty situation with pan lords eventually 10:29:52 Well, the zig levels stuffed with Pan lords are pretty much a powergame handwave to the broken spells 10:30:01 03chriscampbell89 * r4f6caadf2cfa 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/pan.des: Adjust random demonic rune chances 10:30:36 ah, you fixed the chances too, thanks :) 10:30:53 if you're speaking about Tornado, it was balanced to be in line with Firestorm and such 10:31:02 kilobyte: I don't thin kit is 10:31:24 it's more MP efficient 10:31:26 Not that I'm referring only to Tornado, but it is what I meant by new spells, yeah 10:31:49 Mind you, I think being able to refuel MP with crystal balls and sublimation is broken as hell too 10:31:55 I'd like to see both of those methods killed 10:31:58 you don't care about efficiency, you care about range and damage per turn 10:32:06 You care about efficiency too 10:32:26 the efficiency saves you from having to mess around with dangerous things like ball of energy 10:32:31 But perhaps it's better now. The zig ttyrecs I saw were from a few weeks ago 10:32:43 you have to use them constantly with storms, almost never with tornado 10:33:14 but also yeah, i've not tried a zig run since the duration and such was reduced most recently 10:33:33 greensnark: yeah, there was a bug that made it ridiculously broken 10:33:51 Yeah, I watched elliptic using it and it was like &G :P 10:35:15 dpeg wanted it to kick ass in open and suck in closed areas, but I now think it should be seriously nerfed in the former and bumped in the latter 10:35:49 Some difference would be nice, but yeah it should not be completely useless in tight spaces and completely nuclear in the open 10:36:02 The effect looks pretty nice 10:36:09 that'd help it be less broken in zigs/zot:5, the difference could still be noticeable just not as huge as it is now 10:36:34 greensnark: unlimited free loot isn't bad if it's harder to get than winning the game 10:37:15 being Air:9 made sense before Ash reskilling was added, but with it, it's damn easy to get it castable quickly 10:37:30 casmith789: "harder to get" != "free" 10:37:30 so I'm afraid Conj/Air:9 is a must, too 10:37:47 kilobyte: not ench/air:9? 10:37:55 charm/air :P 10:37:55 casmith789: And of course, I disagree with you on that :P 10:38:08 well then it's not free :P 10:38:23 why is it bad 10:38:44 syllogism: If the game isn't interesting it has failed and should be fixed 10:38:50 the zig minigame is fun 10:38:53 I mean it's bad zig is too easy 10:38:54 which is why we do it 10:38:56 I know there are lots of places in Crawl which are that way 10:39:04 but it's not bad that players can farm pan/zigs after the game has been won 10:39:04 But that's no reason to leave them that way 10:39:47 Well, if Pan difficulty escalates, fine 10:40:04 But as it stands doing infinite Pan levels just means the game is broken 10:40:22 how? 10:40:31 See above 10:40:32 if doing infinite pan levels was optimal, sure 10:40:40 but it is far from optimal 10:40:40 "If the game isn't interesting it has failed and should be fixed" 10:40:49 it is interesting 10:40:51 the players who farm those levels are presumably having fun 10:40:57 and it isn't making the game any easier 10:41:07 no-one does stuff they don't find interesting 10:41:11 pan/zigs need to be fixed sure 10:41:16 Sure, pudding farming is fun too 10:41:23 As is grinding WoW characters 10:41:24 pudding farming makes the game easier 10:41:30 But that's not the crap I want to see in Crawl 10:41:47 farming is only an issue if doing it is required for optimal play 10:41:47 Oh, I agree that a large part of the problem is the current broken spells that make Zigs so easy 10:42:25 Shrug, I'm never going to agree that infinite unscaled Pan is good. Where's the challenge 10:42:28 pudding farming makes the game easier, and I don't do it because I don't find it fun. If it were only possible by eg farming death on nethack, that would be fine because it's just stupid ascension tricks people find fun. 10:43:23 Ok, fine, let's drop this argument :P 10:44:18 Sure, but I'll leave you with one last point. There is an inherent difference between {pan/zig farming} and {abyss/pudding farming} due to their difficulty. 10:45:01 I think it's a matter of degree, not a giant qualitative difference 10:45:39 Certainly I think it's more important that things like crystal balls of energy and sublimation and Borgnjor's be killed with fire than that we worry about endless Pan 10:46:29 ideally pan would eventually kill you, no matter how buff you are, but I think keeping it infinite is more interesting 10:46:37 But since I'm not going to make any efforts to fix any of these things, you can stop worrying :P 10:46:41 cboe -> rubbish // sublimation -> good but not broken // borg -> haven't tested at L7 but probably too good 10:47:09 casmith789 -> doesn't know what he's talking about 10:47:10 syllogism: Infinite with increasing difficulty is fine by me 10:47:32 cboe is still great even with the horrible int drain 10:47:40 (but the horrible int drain is horrible) 10:47:46 and originally zigs weren't even supposed to be beatable :P 10:47:51 is there any crystal ball type that doesn't beg for killing? 10:48:13 syllogism: Zigs actually did their job admirably well and revealed all the rotten broken crap :P 10:48:19 yes 10:48:24 How is being forced to train evoc to 14 broken 10:48:31 And there are some attempts to fix the brokeenness, let's see how it works 10:48:37 (if you want to use it) 10:49:20 greensnark: like ashenzari? :D 10:49:40 * greensnark steers well clear of the new gods :P 10:49:42 !lg . s=god 10:49:43 483 games for greensnark: 260x , 41x Xom, 33x Sif Muna, 24x Zin, 23x Makhleb, 23x The Shining One, 22x Yredelemnul, 22x Vehumet, 13x Trog, 12x Elyvilon, 7x Okawaru, 2x Lugonu, 1x Beogh 10:49:46 ^^There you go 10:50:05 xom is the oldest god? 10:50:12 how can +15 to all stats not excite you! 10:50:22 no, just the best god 10:50:47 I think the new gods will eventually stabilize, but we seem to be adding 1.5 every version, so they'll probably stabilise around 1.0 :) 10:51:56 Although I think Fedhas and Jiyva look reasonably stable now 10:51:58 greensnark: I just realised you haven't played using kiku. Don't know why I'm still speaking to you, to be honest ;) 10:52:00 I should play those 10:52:08 Kiku OP :P 10:52:14 oh right and makhleb isn't 10:52:22 Ok, you have a point :P 10:52:33 It's just a hangover from the days Kiku sucked 10:53:15 !lg . s=god / win 10:53:15 17/483 games for greensnark: 1/1x Beogh [100.00%], 4/22x Vehumet [18.18%], 1/7x Okawaru [14.29%], 2/23x Makhleb [8.70%], 1/12x Elyvilon [8.33%], 1/13x Trog [7.69%], 2/33x Sif Muna [6.06%], 2/41x Xom [4.88%], 1/22x Yredelemnul [4.55%], 1/23x The Shining One [4.35%], 1/260x [0.38%], 0/2x Lugonu [0.00%], 0/24x Zin [0.00%] 10:54:07 !lg * s=god/win 10:54:10 3570/888653 games for *: 59/420x Jiyva [14.05%], 26/355x Ashenzari [7.32%], 211/6192x Nemelex Xobeh [3.41%], 726/25862x Okawaru [2.81%], 179/6534x Kikubaaqudgha [2.74%], 307/11600x Vehumet [2.65%], 424/18958x Sif Muna [2.24%], 31/1452x Fedhas [2.13%], 36/2773x Cheibriados [1.30%], 280/22564x The Shining One [1.24%], 340/28867x Makhleb [1.18%], 63/5468x Zin [1.15%], 113/11710x Lugonu [0.96%], 71/86... 10:54:18 jiyva so OP :P 10:54:25