00:06:07 I guess some of those look better if the level is generated around them, instead of them being placed on a generated level. 00:18:42 -!- Twinge has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:20:05 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 00:28:05 Drain tile remains after exiting Sewer... (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3135) by Twilight 00:53:12 Crash to desktop upon leaving shoals (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3136) by Wolpertinger 00:54:55 -!- Iainuki has quit [Quit: Iainuki] 01:01:06 -!- Zchris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 01:34:05 -!- Siber2 has joined ##crawl-dev 01:35:21 Does that FR thing actually do anything? I just have to know. 01:35:35 FR thing? 01:36:06 in ##Crawl that I see people doing 01:36:19 -!- Siber has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:36:23 Example? 01:36:40 FR: Something awesome 01:36:41 "FR: "? 01:36:43 Ah. 01:36:44 FR: Antaeus hands out snow cones 01:36:44 -!- Siber2 is now known as Siber 01:36:50 exactly 01:36:53 Sometimes the devs are watching and will implement things. 01:37:02 But no, not really. 01:37:22 aw 01:37:27 Does it ping somebody? 01:37:29 Zchris13: If you do want to suggest something, you need to write it up in the wiki. 01:37:36 Oh 01:37:38 k 01:37:40 Thanks! 01:37:40 Zchris13: No, that's just people horsing around. :) 01:37:40 usually the FR thing is purely in jest 01:37:52 We could implement a bot that appennds all FR: lines to a random wiki page. 01:37:57 But... 01:37:59 when people *say* FR they don't really mean it 01:38:01 that would be a horrible wiki page 01:38:16 actually filing FRs is what you do if you care 01:38:38 sorear: Well, sometimes that doesn't mean that it's inherently a bad idea. I've seen people put stuff in bad_ideas and then had it implemented. 01:38:39 Also good morning due, sorear! 01:38:43 (ie, malign gateway, I think?) 01:39:24 due: Have you checked out the grotto and tomb volcano subvault thingies I committed some time ago? (You possibly already did?) 01:40:04 Keskitalo: Erm... I think so? 01:40:09 Keskitalo: I believe I said "Awesome"! 01:40:48 Ok! Have you had time to check why the lake map volcano stops erupting when I subvaultify it then? :) More awesome maps, I have! 01:41:04 Oh, hm. 01:41:06 :S! 01:48:27 morning folks 01:49:56 woo, tilegen building and running cleanly on win32/msvc now 01:50:49 Nice! 01:52:25 thanks :) 01:52:40 working on the main project now, it's really a shame that msvc makes things so messy 01:53:00 think I've managed to get most of it sorted by simply setting up my environment in a clever way 01:53:21 really need a wiki page on this stuff though so people don't have to fight for hours, would be best if folks could clone from git, open an sln, and compile 01:53:25 imho at least 01:53:37 Sounds good to me 01:54:51 -!- Zchris13 has quit [Quit: SCREW YOU ALL] 01:55:17 how do you guys feel about platform macros in extern.h btw? 01:55:38 it brings in stdint.h and inttypes.h unconditonally 01:55:52 the are C99 standard, but alas msvc is not C99 complant 01:56:19 there is an existing TARGET_COMPILER_VC macro used elsewhere, which I have used to fix it locally 01:58:28 Hrmh. I'm trying to make ice cave have easy and hard versions. Easier maps are selected earlier, and harder maps later. 01:58:44 Keskitalo: adjust the weight via absdepth? 01:59:01 one more thing (sorry for the noise) I'm also seeing issues during tilegen about dc-unrand.txt includes failing 01:59:02 Keskitalo: I believe this is possible and accepted, but I could be wrong.. 01:59:21 Neovanglist: Are you regenerating the relevant unrand info? 01:59:27 I don't see the txt file there, and I do see it included in dc-item.txt 01:59:41 Keskitalo: It's possible that weights are parsed only once at the map parsing, though. 01:59:56 due: not sure, I'm doing whatever is in the existing post-build step of tilegen 02:00:32 due: I actually have ice_cave_easy and ice_cave_hard tags, and the portal vaults decide which one is the destination based on the depth the entry is generated. 02:00:35 I will pastebin the postbuild step as is, one moment 02:00:43 s/portal vaults/entry vaults 02:00:46 http://pastebin.com/1PYGVd4b 02:01:37 due: This works nice except for wizmode convenience 02:01:47 ahhh 02:02:09 Neovanglist: Check the makefile to see where dc-unrand.txt is generated. 02:02:18 But I'd like to use the same maps with different MONS etc tags, and I need to tell the map if it's ice_cave_easy or ice_cave_hard 02:02:22 yeah, I was in the middle of typing osmething to that effect 02:02:29 seems the sh scripts do things the vcproj files do not 02:02:34 going to track it down and fix it now 02:02:35 makefile:861 GENERATED_FILES := art-data.h $(RLTILES)/dc-unrand.txt 02:02:35 thanks 02:02:43 util/art-data.pl 02:03:08 That should generate the dc-unrand.txt file as well 02:03:20 yeah 02:03:30 yeah 02:03:35 need to figure out how to fix the vcproj environment to behave correctly though 02:03:37 util/art-data.pl:689 write_tiles 02:03:44 and I think it's bad long-term to have to maintain both individually 02:03:54 agree 02:04:03 maybe it's smarter to have the normal build scripts "generate 02:04:04 err 02:04:11 (The wizmode thing that breaks is choosing which destination map you want to arrive in - it expects the map name to begin with the tag; i.e. when you have an easy map, it expects to find ice_cave_easy_small_giant, but the maps are called ice_cave_small_giant etc) 02:04:23 "generate" (copy) over the vcproj files into said generated environment (normal/wiz) 02:04:28 then to build in vc you open and compile from there 02:04:29 Keskitalo: fix wizmode! ;) 02:04:34 although that hoses git, etc, bleh 02:04:59 due: Yeah, I don't know why it doesn't look by tag instead of relying on map NAME 02:05:14 greensnark: ^^^ 02:05:19 Keskitalo: A holdover, I guess. 02:05:43 ah 02:05:48 You an put tag in 02:05:59 type the tag name into the prompt 02:06:06 if (!find_map_by_name(dst) && !random_map_for_tag(dst)) 02:06:42 do you guys know who is currently maintaining the win32/msvc port? 02:06:54 Neovanglist: You seem to be doing that :) 02:06:55 Neovanglist: at the minute, you seem to be. 02:06:56 would like to talk to them to figure out a better long-term solution before spending to much time hacking around 02:06:59 haha okay 02:07:04 Destination map choice should allow any name, I don't know why it checks prefixes and stuff 02:07:06 fair enough :) 02:07:21 The windows builds are done via mingw32. 02:07:30 Neovanglist: I remember felirx tried to use msvc before giving in and going with mingw32 02:07:33 So if you touch any of that code, best to poke Napkin and let him know 02:07:34 yeah, I noticed that - it's the first thing I built 02:07:42 Yeah, currently official windows builds are cross-compiled using mingw32 on Linux 02:07:50 got it 02:07:54 Yes, should've clarified. 02:08:01 Otherwise feel free to fix MSVC. 02:08:07 We've had several patches temporarily fixing it. 02:08:16 with that in mind I'll make sure to test everything under a unix (FreeBSD) environment before submitting a patch then 02:08:19 It would be nice if we coul automatically generate the project file from makefile.obj and all of that. 02:08:28 most importantly for my changes to contrib/ 02:08:31 (which should effect all platforms) 02:08:33 Yeah, otherwise the vsproj will just bitrot again 02:08:50 well, actually not true, sorry 02:08:54 the issue does apply to xcode however 02:09:07 (any platform with which sdl-image uses it's builtin rar resources and doesn't autoconf deps) 02:09:08 xcode is slightly more monitored because Enne and greensnark ... used to use it? 02:09:23 I bother with Xcode if people start crying for Mac binaries :P 02:09:32 We should really rig up a command-line build for Mac binaries 02:09:39 the issue is that sdl-image has a builtin libpng-1.2 for xcode/watcom/msvc/blah 02:09:47 and we have libpng1.4 in contrib 02:09:49 greensnark: I know there were some wishing after it in the SA thread 02:09:57 in tilegen, this causes a lib versioning conflict 02:10:00 Ah... yeah. 02:10:12 There's a massive list of .cc files in the project. 02:10:32 honestly, from the sound of it 02:10:49 having a build system that does this intrinsically for lots of environments, (xcode, msvc, etc) might be useful 02:10:54 because there is more than just compiling going on too 02:10:57 resource/header gen, etc 02:11:20 but by no means am I suggesting you guys should change it all, just making a point 02:12:23 we really should 02:12:31 but It Just Works for Linux 02:12:34 and Unix and stuff 02:12:50 and *nix-like (mingw, etc), so we only really look at it when ti stops working. 02:12:58 nod, and honestly I'm more of a *nix guy myself anyhow 02:13:10 This list of files from like 2110+ appears to be artificial. 02:13:21 And likely to go out of date the moment we split more source code/rename stuff. 02:13:42 however my workstation environments are OSX or Win32/64 now days so this was the first way I tried to build it :) 02:13:44 Is there any reason it can't be populated with ls *.cc *.h? :) 02:14:37 bbiab 02:15:08 It would actually be pretty easy to create the Mac app bundle in the makefile 02:15:15 * greensnark adds this to TODO. 02:15:16 greensnark: hooray! 02:15:19 oh 02:15:23 speaking of todo 02:15:57 TODO: add in pruneskin mutation and a counter to check for it 02:16:08 Eronarn: <3 I am so going to do that 02:16:30 Glaive of Prune needs some love 02:16:49 Too long has it languished, lovelorn 02:16:58 due: it should change player glyph color to magenta while you're at it 02:17:18 On critical hit it could temporarily transform living targets into prunes 02:17:50 Eronarn: Of course. 02:18:02 New monster type: pulsating prune. 02:18:30 greensnark: monsters killed by it drop prunes instead of corpses! 02:18:36 <3 02:18:40 pruuuuuuuuuuunes. 02:18:45 If you eat too many prunes... no, wait, let's not go there. 02:23:08 That reminds me, does Cigotuvi's Degeneration have an actual use in the game? 02:24:22 Keskitalo: I believe it is useful for Jiyvaites. 02:24:42 it's not really useful for them, it's just a funny gimmick 02:24:56 they don't get any bonus to it other than the lump being a friendly slime instad of hostile (but lumps are pitifully weak) 02:25:34 We could just make the lump of flesh.... a lump of flsesh? 02:25:49 ie, same HD, HP, attacks, etc, as the orignial monster, but with no weapons, armour, special abilities, blaahblah? 02:26:44 Hmm, a lot like a single-target silence? 02:27:29 i'd turn it into a debuff + damage over time spell, personally 02:27:43 i'm not sure there's a worthwhile niche for 'turn a dangerous monster into a boring one' 02:27:56 currently it's a lot like banishment or a simpler polymorph other 02:29:10 monky: Do you know if it's used? I picked it up in one of my Transmuter games but I don't think it saw serious use. 02:29:18 the only purpose of cigotuvi's degeneration is to explain the flavor of that wizlab 02:29:24 banishment except higher level and two school and only works on mutatables and leaves a monster behind that might mutate you 02:29:29 keskitalo: to my knowledge nobody uses it seriously 02:29:44 Keskitalo: only use I've seen is by vicht, who used it to handle/farm perma-allies 02:29:51 i used it on a jiyvaite 02:30:09 but again, it's not actually particularly useful there 02:30:13 I'm not sure where that list of spells memorised at ascention is 02:32:24 speaking of polymorph other, does anyone ever use it, either? it seems like a lot of spell levels for xp-maximisation, making monsters edible, and abusing knowledge of HD (e.g. for disabling boggarts) 02:34:11 monky: why would you even bother with the spell with how common the wand is 02:34:48 for scumming high-exp monsters from goblins 02:35:23 Another removal candidate imho 02:35:57 tmut could really use some additions 02:36:05 so that it won't look threadbare with so many spells gone 02:36:25 tmut is fine, doesn't matter how it *looks* :P 02:36:42 that said, I *would* love some more spells in there 02:37:02 but not before the current forms have some better balance etc 02:37:07 and the cruft is cut 02:37:13 sky beast form, ball lightning form, some kind of "charging" form (rolling boulder, avalanche, etc.) 02:37:27 tmut has a lot of spells, really... more spells certainly wouldn't hurt, but it will still have all the forms and the earth/tmut spells and the miscellaneous stuff like evap and ignite poison 02:37:48 with rolling boulder beetles, boulder beetle form could be the charging form 02:38:11 elliptic: earth/tmut is weird because earth/tmut makes up a lot of both of those schools 02:38:45 earth/tmut is <3 02:39:07 i think it could stand to be a bit better dispersed 02:39:37 i should play a geomancer one of these days 02:40:09 eronarn: it makes up a lot more of earth than of tmut 02:40:10 it looks awesome by flavour 02:41:02 I'd hate to lose the flavour of Cigotuvi though. 02:41:33 remove first, re-add later 02:41:50 due: Do we have a transloactionist named wizard btw? I have a wizlab concept 02:41:57 Hm 02:42:00 yes 02:42:03 it might be unfun though, I need to test it first 02:42:04 We do? 02:42:05 golubria 02:42:08 oh, yes 02:42:10 golubria! 02:42:11 monky: ooh! yes! 02:42:17 thank you doy :) 02:42:40 Grid of Golubria 02:43:22 ok, i can probably query map_def for tags, right? 02:45:30 std::string map_def.tags yay 02:46:08 Ooh, even map_def.has_tag <3 02:48:17 Not sure how problematic it is, but no natural monsters have high enough hd to qualify as poly targets for the lernaean hydra, so it ends up being random, usually resulting in something wimpy (easy way out of dealing with 27 heads) 02:48:57 @?? the lernaean hydra 02:48:57 the Lernaean hydra (08D) | Speed: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 30 | Health: 150 | AC/EV: 0/5 | Damage: 18 per head | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded, regen | Res: 06magic(120), 03poison | Chunks: clean/none/unknown | XP: 7599. 02:49:25 could just increase that MR a lot, I guess 02:49:40 how effective is ?vulnerability 02:49:48 halves monster MR 02:51:50 monky: It's super effective! 02:52:26 Could probably make poly not be random in such a case. 02:52:58 turns into a lernaean pyrohydra or cryohydra 02:54:09 polymorphss into an orb guardian <3 02:55:56 on increasing its MR, do mutaclouds check for magic immunity? 02:56:49 bah, I don't understand c++ 02:57:09 that map_def wasn't a class, but a const so it doesn't have that has_tag method 02:57:19 I can't figure out what that const map_def can do 02:58:54 Keskitalo: context? 02:59:13 const is just a signifier for immutability 02:59:21 oh, duh 02:59:28 const map_def can do all of the stuff that a normal map_def can do 02:59:40 I thiink I mixed that up with "struct" :D 02:59:54 possibly it is a pointer and you need to use -> to denote the member you are accessing? 03:00:08 or the reverse and you are using -> instead of . for a non-pointer! possibly. 03:00:10 yes, taht's it 03:00:14 thanks :) 03:00:19 I am always confused 03:00:23 Like I said, I don't understand C++ :) 03:00:26 It usually takes about six tries to work out which one is wihch 03:00:32 yeah 03:00:48 our C++ tutor last year made a handy table for reference 03:00:50 of course I don't have it 03:02:34 due: Also, the thing I do (with both ice_cave_hard and ice_cave_easy tags in the same icecave.des) is the same as with Baileys - that's actually two portal vaults, bailey_axe and bailey_polearm. But they don't share maps, that's the difference 03:04:19 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 03:04:19 Baileys are hackishly put together IMHO :) 03:04:26 hail galehar 03:04:34 This'll be even more hackish! 03:04:35 hi 03:04:41 hi galehar! 03:06:06 :( 03:14:09 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 03:14:21 Good morning syllogism 03:14:39 due: http://i.imgur.com/0svfz.png 03:14:43 You know you have stepped to new levels of obsessiveness *when you are documenting your documntation generation program*. 03:14:45 clang helps :P 03:18:14 cang 03:18:40 herself: "It'll be quicker to write my own" 03:18:58 hi 03:19:47 Well, crap, I tried to tweak the portal destination vault query so that it accepts just plain typing the name of the map, but it crashes when I test the ice cave portal with sewer_kobolds 03:20:14 :) 03:20:18 I'm assuming it would 03:20:30 judging the crash report is seems that it doesn't use the sewer map, but goes ahead entering a non-existent ice cave. 03:20:44 It's still restricted to using "those vaults". 03:21:04 What I expected was "No such ice_cave_easy, try again." 03:21:13 ahh 03:21:15 hm 03:21:21 soo I probably have faulty logic in my own lines 03:21:50 if (find_map_by_name(name)->has_tag(you.level_type_tag)) 03:21:50 vault = find_map_by_name(name); 03:22:54 That would have to be the broken part. 03:23:58 If vault is set, it goes through. 03:24:27 That shouldn't set the vault when the map given is sewer_kobolds, since it should look for ice_cave_easy tag.. 03:29:19 jpeg's new tutorial proposal looks really nice 03:30:00 another one? :) 03:30:16 Oh my, 26 emails. Looks like I closed email. 03:32:51 Yeah, "episodizing" the current tutorial concept 03:32:54 it sounds very good 03:33:09 I already thought doing that was a great idea a year ago :) 03:33:35 We could also have advanced tutorial lessons, such as.. I don't know, scumming with Nemelex 1-0-1 ? :-P 03:34:46 "Scumming with Nemelex! In the Abyss!" "The ancient lich touches you ... You die!" "Oops?" 03:35:58 <3 Johanna. 03:37:33 hahaha 03:37:49 btw, is there any update on all of the crashes recently? 03:37:56 they seem to be floor traversal related for me 03:38:02 and they often also corrupt my savedata 03:38:50 I'm guessing most of them are related to monster MID. 03:39:06 * due eyes kilobyte. 03:39:18 i doubt they corrupted your savedata 03:39:28 you were probably just getting the assert 03:39:34 as soon as the game loaded 03:39:36 it's probably not actually corrupted 03:39:46 ah, nice 03:39:46 you'er just running into a monster that's been marshalled and doesn't have an MID 03:39:53 I have some savedata that "crashes" 03:39:56 if anyone is interested 03:39:59 we have black magic and ways of fixing save files :> 03:40:02 would be nice to get my level 17 hill orc back :) 03:40:09 Neovanglist: do you know what the assert is? 03:40:13 I'll run it now 03:40:20 (:> you should if there is, get a dialog! if you use tiles.) 03:40:20 (with this weekend's trunk) 03:40:51 co's new serial vault is pretty great 03:40:58 I get a runtime error 03:41:07 no addtl info 03:41:08 the recent crashes aren't caused by mid 03:41:14 I have also seen an assert on exit 03:41:23 something about tileinfo iirc 03:42:04 I fixed this one yesterday 03:42:52 I think the crashes on level load are caused by jpeg's change of saving name of tiles 03:43:00 1cf9778054ab 03:43:19 Store vault-defined tile names in the save 03:44:00 this crash doesn't assert by the way 03:44:57 fwiw, just confirmed the crash with the latest trunk build 03:45:11 I can rar and upload my save data if anyone is interested 03:45:24 (this is actually the entire reason I have been trying to get it to build in msvc, so I could debug the issue) 03:46:26 is the latest build less than 10h old 03:46:59 Neovanglist: the crash on load level is still there sure. The one I fixed is the assert on game restart. 03:47:00 think the latest build just happened a couple hours ago 03:47:09 galehar: ah got it, thanks! 03:48:40 Neovanglist: why do you try to compile with msvc? It isn't supported. 03:48:59 galehar: Neovanglist is attempting to get our support back up to scratch :) 03:49:33 galehar: I realise that now, when I saw the project files I assumed it was 03:49:53 fwiw however, I find debugging in msvc significantly more useful compared to gdb 03:50:14 but that is not a slam on gdb, I'm simply more accustomed to using visual debuggers 03:50:54 The debugger was the reason felirx wanted to use msvc too IIRC 03:51:27 there's also eclipse for visual debug 03:51:48 yeah, but gdb frontends in general have been problematic in my experience 03:52:02 that said, I've actually worked to implement one before, it's not very nice 03:52:18 in any case, it's not a big deal 03:52:33 can't you use msysgit for compiling and msvc for editing and debugging? 03:52:49 that's something like what I have hacked together now 03:53:10 that's what I did with eclipse 03:53:20 imho a better solution may be to modify the vcproj setup to be a makefile project 03:53:22 crawl's makefile isn't windows friendly :) 03:53:26 instead of a vsbuild one 03:53:45 then just let vs execute the makefiles, it's not super efficent (no single file compilation, etc) 03:53:53 but at least has a more sensible workflow than what I have now 03:54:11 but the makefile need to be executed in a unix (or msys) environment 03:54:24 sure, that is possible from vs 03:54:34 just wrap it all up in a batchfile that creates the expected environment 03:54:52 mmm batch magic 03:54:54 it's nothing I would want to submit as a patch though, strictly a hack so I can do things locally 03:55:31 Why not submit it? 03:55:42 with the right documentation it would allow other masochists to replicate your efforts. ;) 03:55:49 perhaps 03:55:54 I think a more proper solution is possible however 03:55:59 just needs some more thought and work 03:56:05 along with some decent wiki documentation 03:56:11 the git stuff on wiki is quite good 03:56:26 a windows developer guide would be useful too though I think 03:56:42 whatever helps people get into the code and contribute with as little friction as possible, etc 03:57:12 http://roguelikedeveloper.blogspot.com/2011/01/winner-of-ascii-dreams-roguelike-of.html 03:57:12 bhaak: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 03:57:26 no mentioning about the heated race for the winner place :-) 03:58:55 * Keskitalo makes popcorn, goes to read Tavern's Game Design section 04:00:02 http://roguelikedeveloper.blogspot.com/2011/01/runner-up-of-ascii-dreams-roguelike-of.html 04:00:42 Nice! Loved what ey wrote about TOME as well. 04:01:24 Neovanglist: sure, a project file and some documentation to help new coders to use an IDE for crawl's development under windows would be great. I almost did that but then installed linux ;) 04:02:28 galehar: indeed, I know the feeling :) 04:02:32 galehar: Hasn't there been VS solutions at some time? 04:02:54 like I said, I'm more of a *nix guy at heart myself, but my development workstations nowdays are almost all OSX or Win32/64 04:02:59 Zao: I don't think so. 04:03:06 there are VS solutions now 04:03:07 there are some crazy guys that use eclipse for c++ 04:03:07 I have a faint memory that there was, but I might be mistaken. 04:03:08 they are just bitrotten 04:03:13 If there were, they were rotted. 04:03:17 I have them mostly working onw 04:03:19 *now 04:03:25 VS? 04:03:31 Oh, visualStudio? 04:03:34 yeah 04:03:39 The MSVC folder has a large selection of Stuff. 04:03:44 bhaak: I do use eclipse to hack crawl under linux! 04:03:45 Oh right, I tried building using the solutions and ran into things like if/else nesting limits and all. 04:03:47 I don't remember the last time it was updated, though. 04:03:58 Back in 0.6 trunk or something. 04:04:05 if I was on *nix I would much much rather be using kdevelop 04:04:06 I use eclipse for Java and that is bad enough but... then, it is JAva. 04:04:16 kdevelop? 04:04:19 kdevelop has good autotools/make integration also 04:04:23 Though: KDE :/ 04:04:29 * due uses gvim, make, and gdb. 04:04:47 due: don't forget ctags! 04:05:01 * Neovanglist has too many years of using proprietary visual debuggers in embedded to go back to gdb 04:05:11 galehar: I find ctags to be wrong a lot of the time thoough. 04:05:23 I'l ask it to look up a clear method and it'll take me to something random. 04:05:33 Neovanglist: does kdevelop has a good debugger too? 04:05:54 it has gdb integration via tty emulation (like most other gdb frontends) 04:06:10 and it plugs into the ide so you can do line breakpoints in the text editor, watches, etc 04:06:15 Oooh. 04:06:23 I wonder if there is a GDB plugin for vim. 04:06:30 Neovanglist: Like DDD, but less crap then? 04:06:38 Zao: yes 04:06:45 Zao: and also in your IDE which you build and edit in 04:07:15 galehar: you crazy human! 04:08:10 due: eclipse is fine for java if you enable Emacs key bindings :) 04:08:32 Neovanglist: so what does kdevelop has to make it better than eclipse? less bloat? 04:09:19 galehar: depends on if you are running KDE already 04:09:29 I wouldn't install all of KDE for it, most likely 04:09:30 galehar: Eclipse kind of suffers from having roots for Java. 04:09:43 At least it did in the past, it's CDT is rather primitive and cruddy at times. 04:09:44 but I really prefer Qt for tools 04:09:56 so I appriciate the speed/integration/consistency kdevelop has 04:10:16 If I bothered to run some kind of IDE on non-Windows, I'd go with KDevelop or possibly Qt Creator. 04:10:24 bhaak: I keep using vim keybindings and it ... does not worrk 04:10:35 I don't use kde, but I'll try kdevelop anyway. 04:11:01 The problem with most IDEs is that they imagine they can include text editors that don't suck 04:11:09 They're all so terribly wrong 04:11:12