00:59:51 <due> Is there any point to using a FixedVector over a Vector for information that isn't going to be stored?
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01:03:49 <sorear> due: fixedvector needs to die
01:04:08 <due> okay
01:04:20 <due> that is what I thought, it is very unclear.
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01:46:50 <due> sorear: http://1-800-magic.blogspot.com/2008/02/stl-vector-performance.html
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01:56:14 <sorear> due: I wish I had BDFL powers so I could pick a new language and force it down everyone else's throat
01:56:30 <sorear> but we have no technical lead, which means we're stuck with C++ forever
01:56:42 <Ashenzari> Undead allies don't turn hostile when you abandon Kiku. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3077) by elliptic
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01:58:55 <due> :)
01:59:08 <due> sorear: re: that article, is there any point in pre-sizing vectors?
01:59:43 <sorear> due: tias
02:00:23 <sorear> I would answer that question by writing a microbenchmark.  But you can do that just as easily
02:00:31 <due> Meh.
02:00:51 <Zao> due: I wouldn't say there's any harm, assuming you know the size already.
02:01:14 <due> Wel, it can be at most (NUM_MONSTERS*3)+3. But it's never going to be that big.
02:01:36 <due> "Transient ischemic attacks", I see.
02:03:30 <sorear> try it and see.  aka, "ask your compiler, not me"
02:03:49 <sorear> it's a pretty standard response on irc.perl.org... I slipped
02:03:52 <due> Ahhh.
02:57:45 <due> So, static local variables. Should we be avoiding them at all costs? I've been doing some research into their use but I haven't been able to find anyone actually describing the pros/cons of them.
03:01:44 <sorear> static local variables are like static global variables, except you can't accidentally use them from two places
03:01:59 <sorear> they're no different at runtime from any other global
03:02:02 <due> Okay.
03:02:35 <due> so using a static local variable as a "cache" of sorts to store a value instead of running a function 600 times is good, yeah?
03:03:09 <sorear> why not use an auto local variable?
03:03:20 <due> Because I don't know what an auto local variable is!
03:03:25 * due to the Google.
03:03:34 <sorear> int x; == auto int x
03:03:57 <sorear> auto local variables are created when the function is entered and destroyed when it returns
03:04:08 <sorear> they're te awesome
03:04:10 <due> yes
03:04:26 <due> but I am writing a colour function that can be called quite regularly.
03:05:27 <due> and it calls another function to find another coord_def and this is the value I am wishing to store, instead of runninng that function however many times the colour function is called.
03:05:52 <OG17> st is in a solid-glass lab, if that's not supposed to happen
03:06:25 <OG17> not solid I guess but the majority was
03:06:28 <elliptic> it isn't all glass, just a huge part
03:06:29 <elliptic> yeah
03:06:30 <due> virtification?
03:06:35 <elliptic> no
03:06:49 <elliptic> other people have commented on this too in the last day or so
03:07:03 <due> Zaba: did you touch lab generation? :)
03:08:35 <greensnark> Poor Zaba, automatically blamed for everything that goes amiss in the dungeon
03:08:52 <greensnark> !tell Zaba I think you're awesome. Also when I can ask you for zsh tips.
03:08:53 <Henzell> greensnark: OK, I'll let Zaba know.
03:18:33 <due> Erm, yeah. Labyrinth generation is definitely off.
03:24:19 <st_> it would be kind of cool if it was like that super rarely
03:25:11 <due> the only tihng that has changed recently is that it went from using a vector of coord_defs to find four adjacent squares to using orth_adjacent_iterator.
03:27:26 <due> kilobyte: <3.
03:30:00 <Zao> Another word for "cache" is "memory leak".
03:30:34 <due> Since when?
03:31:02 <Zao> Well, "cache without an eviction policy"
03:31:19 <Zao> Something that a variable with static storage duration is.
03:31:44 <Zao> Assuming you use "unreclaimable memory" as a definition for "memory leak".
03:41:33 <kilobyte> peaking about likely memory leaks, I'm pondering storing global monster information (like, if you get poisoned by a monster then leave the level) with reference counting.  A crapload of things would then be able to hold references: clouds, mon_ench, monster summon chains, player afflictions, possibly shedu corpses, ...
03:41:57 <kilobyte> I wonder how to avoid leaks there
03:42:09 <due> kilobyte: Bungs?
03:42:25 <due> kilobyte: I am partially stealing your swirly colour algorithm from etC_trees :)
03:42:54 <kilobyte> etc_trees don't have swirls, they use a bad hash
03:43:06 <due> Erm.
03:43:08 <due> etc_tornado.
03:43:09 <kilobyte> that wasn't meant to be bad, but I liked the effect
03:43:42 <kilobyte> for tornado, I'm going to edit it to reference the cloud's actor source
03:43:59 <kilobyte> no change for player-spawned tornados though
03:44:09 <sorear> kilobyte: why not just make a struct mob_blame { kill_category kc; string kill_chain; long uid; } and copy-construct them around?
03:46:51 <due> kilobyte: I'm reusing it at the minute for Leda's Liquefaction but it's not quite what I wannted.
03:48:51 <kilobyte> kill_chain can't be just a string
03:49:06 <kilobyte> and I'm removing that kill_category hack
03:50:13 <OG17> if you want a L-named earth mage, why not lehudib?
03:50:18 <OG17> or am I thinking of something else
03:50:33 <due> Meh.
03:50:44 <due> Leda clay is another name for quick clay.
03:50:51 <due> Which is subject to extremes with liquefaction.
03:51:34 <kilobyte> heh, that's a good reason to use a new name
03:52:07 <due> And if I'd remembe rLehudib I would've used him :/
03:52:08 <sorear> getting rid of kill_category?  yay?
03:52:09 <st_> Leda wizlab!
03:52:17 <kilobyte> sorear: blame chain can be currently displayed in several ways -- sometimes terse, sometimes detailed with an entry per line
03:52:38 <OG17> I sort of like how there's one big name for each school, I don't know
03:52:47 <OG17> or those that have it at all at least
03:52:49 <sorear> kilobyte: Now that I think about it, I added that :)
03:52:57 <sorear> How I have forgotten!
03:53:11 <kilobyte> sorear: heh
03:54:29 <kilobyte> it could be pickled into a single string this way: "summon:vampire|summon:ancient lich|wrath:Kikubaaquadha"
03:56:12 <kilobyte> I pondered using recursion, since this way it would be reusable for clouds and what not which require more than just a name, though
03:56:42 <kilobyte> since Injury Mirror should be able to punish those who spewed the cloud
04:00:50 <kilobyte> that's for the blame chain... kill_category on the other hand is never right
04:02:05 <kilobyte> since it breaks a number of things: 1. Injury Mirror, 2. monsters levelling up, 3. xp tracking, 4. gods that treat undead/living/demonic allies differently, 5. obituaries
04:02:26 <due> kilobyte: I've implemented finding the centre of a given area based on a coord_def (ie, haloes, etc) if you wanted to use that for tornado instead.
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04:36:30 <due> hi mu!
04:39:41 <Mu_> yo
04:40:19 * due still working on leda's liquefaction :(
04:40:58 <Mu_> what's that
04:41:25 <due> An earth halo spell.
04:41:55 <due> ??dragon form
04:41:56 <Henzell> dragon form[1/4]: You're a dragon now! RAAAAWR! Breathe fire! Be tough (+60% hp) and strong! Draconians get a bonus to their ability to cast this, similar to wizardry.
04:41:59 <due> ??dragon form[2]
04:41:59 <Henzell> dragon form[2/4]: Base unarmed damage =  (20 + str + unarmed_skill), +10 str, flight, rPois+ rFire++ rCold-, regen+, ability to breathe fire, up to +12 AC (is a function of fire magic), huge size (will nuke your EV)
04:42:03 <due> ??dragon form[3]
04:42:03 <Henzell> dragon form[3/4]: Usually not very useful because by the time you can cast it, you have great armour and don't really want to meld it and simultaneously nerf your dodging. Also good for getting killed by ice fiends.
04:42:07 <due> What spell level is it?
04:42:26 <due> Ah, 8. Not "puny" :)
04:44:20 <Mu_> i don't see it on the wiki did you make it up
04:44:43 <due> yes
04:44:46 <due> well, eronarn did
04:44:56 <Mu_> is leda lee's sister? :P
04:46:05 <kilobyte> an idea for the dragon form: let's nerf back its damage (greatly boosted recently) but give it GDR
04:46:17 <kilobyte> like, you see, _dragon_ armour
04:47:31 <monky> if you do that, also give gdr to statue form
04:47:38 <OG17> give statue form gdr to go with its AC, not much reason for dragon to have defenses as well
04:47:41 <OG17> monky argh
04:47:53 <OG17> you're the new tgw
04:48:32 <OG17> but yeah the point of dragon form seems to be being a huge squishy thing with crazy damage
04:49:34 <OG17> while statue is less huge less squishy less crazy and more slowed
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04:55:35 <due> okay, updated the wiki with new eldritch horror themes for tiles
05:05:33 <OG17> does this new liquid spell mean monsters are going to be slowed by shallow water too?  That would be nice, honest
05:05:45 <OG17> mantis 1959 3035 etc
05:05:59 <due> No?
05:06:12 <due> It doesn't touch water.
05:06:44 <due> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthquake_liquefaction
05:07:01 <OG17> I was worried it'd end up only slowing the player, ha
05:07:18 <OG17> (though it'd be nice if water was fixed!)
05:07:22 <due> It acts as ponderousness for the player.
05:07:43 <due> Well, slightly more than ponderousness.
05:08:21 <due> Or it would if I hadn' treversed the loggic :S
05:09:45 <OG17> does stuff fumble, or is it just walk speed?
05:09:49 <sorear> monster 'haste player' spells are always welcome.
05:10:39 <sorear> kilobyte: let's not buff dragon form until somebody tries it - that learndb entry is old
05:12:03 <due> ... huh how come I'm faster than this rat.
05:12:15 <kilobyte> sorear: the only change for non-draconians recently was making claws work (+6 base unarmed damage)
05:12:43 <kilobyte> draconians get more variety but not more actual power, too
05:12:49 <kilobyte> @??rat
05:12:50 <Gretell> rat (07r) | Speed: 10 | HD: 1 | Health: 1-4 | AC/EV: 1/10 | Damage: 3 | Res: 06magic(1) | XP: 1.
05:13:39 <due> Ahhhh
05:13:41 <due> I worked it out :)
05:13:43 <Zaba> moin
05:13:43 <Henzell> Zaba: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
05:13:45 <Zaba> !messages
05:13:45 <Henzell> (1/1) greensnark said (2h 4m 53s ago): I think you're awesome. Also when I can ask you for zsh tips.
05:13:54 <monky> @??dragon
05:13:54 <Gretell> dragon (03D) | Speed: 10 | HD: 12 | Health: 70-110 | AC/EV: 10/8 | Damage: 20, 13, 13 | Flags: fly, !sil | Res: 06magic(64), 05fire++, 03poison | Vul: 12cold | XP: 1356 | Sp: flame blast (3d24).
05:14:14 <Zaba> greensnark, thanks and I'm not really that much of a zsh expert, although I know a few such experts.
05:14:14 <CIA-113> 03j-p-e-g * r17a710889868 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/ (UNUSED/monsters/firecrab.png dc-mon/animals/firecrab.png): Add coolio's fire crab tile.
05:14:20 <due> ... whoa
05:14:22 <greensnark> Zaba: Just kidding :)
05:14:35 <due> when you haste or slow an abomination
05:14:39 <greensnark> I'm still digging in zsh, but it already seems nicer than bash
05:14:41 <due> when the effect wears off...
05:14:41 <Zaba> due, I did touch lab generation, yes
05:14:48 <due> it randomises their speed :|
05:14:55 <due> is that deliberate?
05:15:01 <sorear> yes
05:15:06 <due> damn.
05:15:33 <Zaba> due, when I refactored some of lab-related code to use iterators, I might have broken it, yes
05:15:43 <Zaba> due, just as with everything else I have ever touched :P
05:16:07 <due> :D
05:17:29 <due> this is a nightmare
05:18:10 <Zaba> it overdoes virtification, you say?
05:18:42 <due> yes
05:18:44 <due> go into a lab
05:18:44 <Zaba> well, the hell with it, it's not like seeing through the lab helps you with getting through it!
05:18:52 <due> hit &( and then view the map
05:18:55 <Zaba> I call it's a feature
05:18:59 <due> erm
05:19:00 <Zaba> s/'s//
05:19:01 <due> have you seen it?
05:19:10 <Zaba> of course.  Do you think I don't test my changes? :P
05:19:17 * due eyebrows.
05:19:24 <Zaba> the problem is that I didn't really look at what it looked like _before_ my changes :P
05:19:46 <Zaba> anyway, I guess I'll look into it
05:19:54 <due> damn it, I can't see any way to do this without adding a new enchantment for monsters.
05:20:09 <Zaba> due, in the meantime, please contemplate to http://sprunge.us/QGEU
05:20:26 <due> Ooh, nice!
05:20:37 <due> it is not deadly enough, though?
05:20:51 <Zaba> wizlab entries are supposed to be deadly?
05:21:18 <due> ;)
05:21:53 <Zaba> anyway..
05:21:56 <Zaba> 6212             if (one_chance_in(3) || _grid_has_wall_neighbours(p, pos))
05:21:56 <Zaba> 6213                 _vitrify_wall_neighbours(p);
05:22:11 <Zaba> shouldn't it be &&?
05:23:01 <Ashenzari> removed pixel junk from orcish dagger tile (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3078) by Mychaelh
05:23:46 <due> possibly
05:24:00 <Zaba> what is the _intended_ behaviour of vitrification?
05:24:06 <Zaba> it's been a || before my iterator changes
05:24:12 <due> Like three or four walls, I think?
05:27:43 <Zaba> well, that's what it does when that line has a &&
05:27:59 <due> which implies that it was somehow broken before your changes
05:28:04 <Zaba> *shrug*
05:30:02 <Zaba> due, so, what's your verdict for the wizlab entry?
05:31:40 <due> Zaba: I like it! <3
05:32:05 <Zaba> shall I commit it?
05:35:35 <due> Yup!
05:35:35 <due> Did I show you Tower of Silence?
05:35:35 <Zaba> hm.. I think so, yes
05:39:44 <due> :)
05:43:31 <due> I get the horrible feeling I've missed something with this. :(
05:44:27 <due> Okay, Leda's Liquefaction in!
05:44:38 <CIA-113> 03due * r0412296ad00c 10/crawl-ref/source/ (30 files in 2 dirs): New spell: Leda's Liquefaction.
05:44:45 <due> That was a *lot* of code.
05:45:31 <Mu_> shoulda just let Lee have that spell :P
05:45:40 <due> ...
05:45:44 <due> DUH.
05:46:07 <monky> or change lrd to leda's rapid deconstruction
05:47:12 <kilobyte> sorear: in the past, abominations had their speed randomized only once.  It's probably due to my changes to enchantments -- I call calculations every time, as opposed to adding/subtracting/multiplying/dividing which was pretty fragile.
05:47:28 <due> Random movement is cool, I guess.
05:47:47 <due> It just precluded more regular calling of calc_speed.
05:47:58 <monky> is it possible to scum hasting aboms for a good speed
05:48:07 <due> monky: In theory.
05:48:14 <due> But you can't really know what speed they are.
05:48:40 <monky> two speeds: tags along and falls behind
05:49:08 <monky> (or do they always fall behind without ponderous/slow/naga on the player)
05:49:32 <due> 6 + random2avg(7, 2)
05:50:00 <due> So they can possible be speed 12?
06:00:07 <syllogism> someone didn't change all the sticky flame references in vaults to sticky_flame_range when he renamed it
06:02:54 <syllogism> liquefaction effect is pretty nice
06:03:00 <syllogism> visually
06:04:18 <syllogism> it's also really powerful, probably too powerful
06:05:47 <due> syllogism: Well, yes; things can be toned down.
06:06:14 <due> syllogism: And I stole the swirl algorithm from kilobyte; I'd rather it used a rippling effect, but I need to sit down and rite that.
06:07:31 <due> syllogism: It was originaly a paralysis "Sinking" effect determined by weight.
06:09:16 <kilobyte> due: so instead of the angle use just the distance
06:10:32 <due> kilobyte: Thanks, will do. :) I'm rubbish at those sorts of things.
06:12:55 <st_> oh a cool new earth spell added right when I have an EE going
06:13:51 <syllogism> it's almost like an unresistable, area of effect slow spell
06:14:00 <syllogism> that's sustained
06:14:33 <due> syllogism: it is.
06:15:00 <due> but it slows you as well.
06:15:04 <syllogism> almost because it doesn't make them 50% slower
06:15:10 <due> yeaj
06:15:12 <due> *yeah.
06:15:39 <syllogism> but it only slows player movement, not delay
06:15:43 <due> yeah.
06:15:47 <due> if that's too powerful we can make it delay instead.
06:17:03 <monky> can you cast it on ground while next to a wall while in spider form?
06:17:17 <monky> or does the clinging apply and make it impossible
06:18:10 <due> doesn't woork if you're clinging :)
06:19:21 <monky> right but I mean, shouldn't a spider that is next to a wall still be able to choose to be on the floor for casting leda's liquefication?
06:19:38 <due> no, because it doesn't apply to you while clinging on a wall.
06:19:56 <monky> is there any way to choose not to cling to a wall
06:20:15 <kilobyte> walk away from it
06:20:41 <kilobyte> but really, it'd remove the whole downside of the spell
06:22:22 <syllogism> currently you can just cast levitation/flight after casting liquefaction, of course that takes an extra turn and mp but liquefaction has a fairly long duration
06:22:33 <due> syllogism: have you tried it?
06:22:37 <syllogism> yes?
06:22:47 <due> ... damn.
06:22:50 <due> That's not supposed to happen. :/
06:23:53 <kilobyte> "the liquid rock around your knees drags you down"?
06:24:06 <syllogism> oh levitation doesnt work, flight does
06:24:19 <due> Okay, oversight on my part there then.
06:24:22 <monky> on something removing the whole downside of some spell, what would remove the whole downside of which spell?  allowing being on the floor while next to a wall for spider form, or allowing casting liquefication while next to a wall (conceptually but not currently possible of unclinging) in spider form?
06:24:39 <due> monky: Being able to avoid the slowing effect.
06:25:10 <monky> due: I was imagining it would uncling the player; perhaps I should have specified that
06:25:14 <due> kilobyte: Gah, I can't get it to look nice. It just looks like moving sqaures. I will look at it later, but thanks for the headsup.
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06:31:18 <Zet> hello
06:31:57 <Zet> I'm looking to make my own roguelike, but making everything from scratch, including the curses handling and all that, would be quite a bore indeed
06:32:15 <Zet> and I already have content, theme and such things planned to a certain extent
06:32:31 <Zet> so, I was thinking I might take something that was already there and expand on it
06:33:02 <Zet> libtcod looks nice, but I really want it to run in the terminal with curses
06:33:18 <Zet> and crawl has a much nicer UI feel than, say, nethack
06:34:45 <Zet> so, how difficult would you people say it would be to take the engine foundation of crawl and make it into some other game, which would be very different in some aspects, notably in that it would not have magic or randomly generated dungeons?
06:35:59 <due> UI is pretty disconnected from the dungeon itself.
06:36:08 <Zet> nice
06:36:16 <due> But...
06:36:26 <due> Splitting it out from the code would difficult, I guess? I'm not sure.
06:36:44 <Zaba> Zet, it would require a lot of hacking.
06:37:21 <Zet> right
06:37:24 <due> What spells for a vampire unique...
06:37:39 <monky> vampire bat form
06:37:43 <due> ooh, cause fear
06:37:51 <Zaba> Zet, it's hard to wrap things up in a single sentence---you're better off inspecting the code yourself.
06:38:06 <due> Zet: Get drunk first. It does help.
06:38:10 <Zet> :)
06:39:07 <kilobyte> due: what'd you say about dir*0.2 + dist*0.5 + the frame_no part?
06:39:08 <Zet> this game would be very different from crawl and nethack. it would be more of a story and dialog driven game, such as fallout.
06:39:45 <Zaba> Zet, crawl doesn't really have a separate 'engine', everything's intertwined
06:39:58 <Zet> I assumed as much
06:40:01 <due> kilobyte: I'll have a look
06:40:05 <kilobyte> Zet: I wonder how hard it would be to convert the display part of libtcod to a roguelike
06:40:05 <Zaba> well, some parts are rather more isolated than others
06:40:13 <monky> due: can panlords (particularly flying panlords) cast leda's liquefication?
06:40:15 <Zaba> but nevertheless
06:40:18 <Zet> kilobyte: good point, maybe that's a better approach
06:40:41 <monky> assuming yes on first (though I don't know how panlords work), unsure about second
06:40:42 <kilobyte> looking at its feature list, I can't fathom why would they use graphics
06:40:51 <Zet> kilobyte: that's what I thought
06:40:58 <due> monky: no
06:41:11 <due> Zet: My other project is a roguelike mystery :)
06:41:26 <Zet> kilobyte: it's probably so they can use SDL, which probably helps portability?
06:41:44 <Adeon> murder mystery roguelike
06:41:52 <kilobyte> all you can't use trivially are 24 bit colours, but you can't really tell the difference from xterm-256 colours in text
06:41:54 <Adeon> who's the culprit??
06:42:02 <syllogism> @
06:42:06 <syllogism> it's always @
06:42:08 <due> Adeon: that's the point
06:42:18 <due> kilobyte: That's nice, actually.
06:42:25 <kilobyte> and 256 colours work mostly everywhere save for Windows, as Linux console and rxvt are rarely used these days
06:42:55 <Zet> 16 colours should be enough for anyone
06:43:04 <due> Zet: likewise 40kb hard drives.
06:43:20 <monky> I think there's a fancy rxvt-unicode-256color now, too.
06:43:28 <kilobyte> due: the very first hard drives had 10 MB.
06:43:34 <due> kilobyte: :|
06:44:10 <Adeon> and cost 5000$
06:44:38 <kilobyte> due: heck, I did turn off a row of them as a toddler :)  The washing machine sized ones, with separate power switch, just in my reach when I stood on my toes and reached up :)  And there were three disks standing next to each other...
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06:46:19 <Ashenzari> Cannot load a windows save file under linux (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3079) by galehar
06:46:21 <due> :))
06:47:52 <bhaak> Zet: also have a look at the engine part of ToME (T-Engine4).
06:49:09 <Zet> yeah, I looked at that a while back, but it was really weird
06:49:11 <Zet> I forget why
07:02:14 <CIA-113> 03zaba * r8ce9afcb904b 10/crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: Don't overdo vitrification in labyrinths.
07:02:18 <CIA-113> 03zaba * r696c4facd2dc 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/portals/wizlab.des: Add a wizlab entry vault.
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07:07:03 <due> hi galehar
07:07:35 <CIA-113> 03due * rfa6b99c70806 10/crawl-ref/source/colour.cc: Use Adam's alternate colouring for liquefaction.
07:11:52 <Zaba> how does liquefaction interact with tornado?
07:12:54 <kilobyte> galehar: for one-time loading of a save, you can compile with BUILD_LUA=y.  This will break all markers and cause lots of spam, but use a different code path where invalid headers are non-fatal errors.
07:13:19 <kilobyte> Tornado forces everything it affects into air.
07:13:51 <kilobyte> galehar: just remember to "make clean-contrib" afterwards or you'll get mysterious failures
07:15:59 <CIA-113> 03due * rc637bfbf1ce4 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-cast.cc: Restrict casting Fly while Liquefying, too.
07:17:19 <CIA-113> 03j-p-e-g * r0fa06d1de0aa 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/item/weapon/orcish_dagger2.png: Tidy up orcish dagger tile, as pointed out by Mychaelh.
07:17:20 <CIA-113> 03j-p-e-g * r6753f826007f 10/crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: Fix labyrinth vitrification.
07:18:07 <kilobyte> ... dammit folks, lemme compile after rebasing, mmm'kay? :p
07:18:57 <kilobyte> yay, ccache got this one
07:19:00 <CIA-113> 03kilobyte * r4fa4a543c2ba 10/crawl-ref/source/ (9 files): Use a separate flag for perm levitation/flight rather than duration hacks.
07:19:02 <CIA-113> 03kilobyte * rac8dde2507c3 10/crawl-ref/source/godabil.cc: Add Freeze to Vehumet's list, it's unquestionably direct physical damage.
07:19:03 <CIA-113> 03kilobyte * r849a1f7747cc 10/crawl-ref/source/ (cloud.cc cloud.h colour.cc): Let tornado colouring use centers other than the player.
07:19:04 <CIA-113> 03kilobyte * r5aa71ffc3643 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-util.cc: Fix Sticky Flame having range 2 under Vehumet.
07:19:24 <due> :))
07:19:27 <due> Commitblocked!
07:20:07 <Zaba> oh, jpeg fixed vitrification
07:20:20 <Zaba> I've just broken it two times in a row and two wrongs seemed to make a right :P
07:20:27 <due> :))
07:22:08 * due sleeps.
07:27:51 <Zaba> I think I should take a little break from dungeon.cc and make some vaults instead.
07:28:01 <Zaba> because, at this rate, I'm going to just break, break, break :P
08:15:09 <CIA-113> 03kilobyte * r489f8712a44a 10/crawl-ref/source/mutation.cc: Fix inconsistent handling of conflicting mutations.
08:20:29 <CIA-113> 03j-p-e-g * rdf784e8dc1c8 10/crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: Make glass more likely in labyrinths.
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08:36:57 <Ashenzari> minimap redrawn to LOS when learning a spell (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3080) by ortoslon
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09:14:38 <ortoslon> kilobyte, due, Napkin: please update windows builds
09:17:22 <Adeon> I compiled crawl on the wii. took a while. it seems to work but it's slooooooooooow
09:22:20 <kilobyte> ortoslon: m'kay
09:32:16 <Ashenzari> Pressing Escape in some situation close the game. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3081) by Robsoie
09:33:13 <Zet> oh damn, now that I actually look at the code, I realize crawl is C++ :(
09:33:23 <Zet> I don't know C++
09:33:35 <Zao> Adeon: Sounds about as productive as me playing Starcraft1 on my linux'd xbox :)
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09:39:41 <Zaba> Zet, what did you think crawl's written in?
09:40:33 <Gretell> Windows development builds on CDO updated to: 0.8.0-a0-4149-gdf784e8
09:41:56 <Zao> Zaba: Rainbows.
09:42:36 <Zet> Zaba: C :)
09:43:06 <Zao> Zet: Heavens forbid.
09:45:14 <Zet> for almost 10 years, I've occasionally been trying to wrap my brain around the "object oriented" thing, but it never gets me anywhere
09:45:43 <Zet> "ok I have fruit, and then I have apples which I special kinds of fruit, and the apples have different colors... then what?"
09:45:49 <Zet> which are*
09:46:31 * bhaak would like to note that a lot of roguelikes are written in C, even the most popular one ;-)
09:46:51 <Zaba> object orientation is perfectly possible in C, it just doesn't provide the syntactic sugar for it
09:46:59 <Zet> yeah
09:47:10 <Zaba> for what it's worth, C++ only provides syntactic salt for it, and no sugar, either
09:47:17 <Zet> heh
09:47:30 <Napkin> hey galehar, are you in?
09:49:34 <bhaak> Zet: crawl's source code isn't that bad (at least the places I looked at :). I think even with only C background you should be able to understand and change the code without a lot of problems.
09:50:03 <Zaba> yeah, the code itself is mostly ok, it's the structure that's godawful most of the time
09:50:18 <Zaba> and good luck changing that ;p
09:53:02 <Zet> bhaak: yeah it looks pretty clean
09:53:18 <Zet> I think the biggest problem is that I'm too impatient to read other people's code :)
10:02:27 <Ashenzari> It is dangerous to assume ASSERT(false) doesn't return (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3082) by vonbrand
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11:01:41 <CIA-113> 03j-p-e-g * r143eba0158da 10/crawl-ref/source/ (dungeon.cc enum.h): Another use for orth_adjacent_iterator.
11:01:42 <CIA-113> 03j-p-e-g * rabcc0d276f8e 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/portals/lab.des: Occasionally place a decay-delayed skeleton in a labyrinth.
11:01:44 <CIA-113> 03j-p-e-g * r48be1efe7fae 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/ (3 files in 2 dirs): Tweak skill and command tab tiles.
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11:32:26 <psyshvl> I'm hoping this is the place to ask, but does someone mind looking over a portal vault that I'm making?
11:32:32 <psyshvl> I can't seem to get it to work right.
11:32:55 <psyshvl> http://pastebin.com/Ymft9L6i <- if anyone is interested
11:36:47 <MarvinPA> you have a bunch of monster names spelt wrong, i don't know if that would cause the whole thing not to work though
11:36:54 <Zaba> there's a number of issues there
11:37:04 <psyshvl> Yeah, I figured
11:37:27 <psyshvl> Just not sure exactly what
11:37:29 <Zaba> first and foremost, copypasta is bad
11:37:55 <psyshvl> okay
11:38:22 <Zaba> for example, the demon_pit_portal function already does the equivalent of KFEAT: O = enter_portal_vault
11:38:38 <Zaba> (and a brief glance suggests that that might be just the tip of the iceberg)
11:38:55 <Zaba> as to issues that prevent it from working.. well, wrong line wrapping comes to mind, that's assuming it wasn't manged badly when you pastebinned it
11:39:55 <Zaba> all lines except for the last that a single vault definition header spans need a \ on their end
11:40:04 <psyshvl> Oh
11:40:23 <Zaba> you should really read docs/develop/levels/*
11:40:35 <psyshvl> Alright, I'll be sure to reread it
11:40:35 <Zaba> and understand the lua code that you have copied, too
11:40:50 <psyshvl> Alright, thanks
11:40:55 <Zaba> and understand the purpose of functions, which is to remove the boilerplate from vault definitions
11:41:18 <Zaba> (of which you seem to have a lot)
11:42:04 <Zaba> psyshvl, also, creating so much content at once doesn't seem like the best idea
11:42:12 <psyshvl> Yeah
11:42:38 <Zaba> psyshvl, I'm not somebody who decides what gets into the game and what doesn't, but, for startes, select two or three vaults that you think represent the theme best, and work on those to no avail
11:42:42 <Zaba> starters*
11:42:47 <psyshvl> okay
11:43:04 <psyshvl> probably did overdo it alot there
11:43:04 <MarvinPA> i like the idea of giving midgame players a chance to die to some demons, though
11:43:15 <psyshvl> Yeah, that's mostly what I was aiming for
11:43:15 <MarvinPA> 2s and such would actually be a threat at that level
11:43:29 <MarvinPA> although it'd probably just demonstrate how horribly boring most of the 2s are :P
11:43:57 <Zaba> psyshvl, a couple high quality vaults is, IMO, much better than half a dozen low-quality ones.  And higher quality vaults also have higher odds of being liked by other people :P
11:44:16 <psyshvl> Okay, so should I just scrap these, and start smaller and simpler?
11:44:33 <Zaba> don't scrap, some of them look promising
11:44:42 <psyshvl> Okay
11:45:17 <Zaba> start over or no is up to you.  Keeping the idea is the defining factor anyway.
11:45:39 <psyshvl> alright
11:46:02 <psyshvl> In that case I'll try and work on redoing the better vaults and see how I do from there
11:46:20 <Zaba> psyshvl, well, personally I like vaults to be compact, especially portal ones---and symmetric, at least to a reasonable extent.
11:46:31 <Zaba> but that's just me.  Some people don't care :P
11:47:33 <Zaba> psyshvl, also, randomize them.  Hand-crafted 'chaotic' elements don't look good, neither in vault definition nor in game.  (N)SUBST/SHUFFLE/etc. are well-documented, and should be employed.
11:48:04 <psyshvl> For what parts?
11:48:14 <psyshvl> The entry vaults?
11:48:36 <Zaba> any parts where hand-crafted chaotic things might appear :>
11:48:41 <psyshvl> okay
11:48:44 <Zaba> it's general stuff for all sorts of vaults
11:49:13 <Zaba> psyshvl, and don't copy lua code without understanding what it does ;P
11:49:54 <Zaba> technical issues can of course be dealt with later if it's decided that the vaults are wanted
11:50:51 <Zaba> so if carefully reading all that code is too much work for you, don't bother, just go ahead and make awesome maps.
11:51:05 <psyshvl> oh, alright
11:51:24 <psyshvl> I thought I'd have too make all of it
11:51:32 <Eronarn> MarvinPA: fix 2s next!!
11:51:32 <psyshvl> At least, to present the idea
11:51:53 <MarvinPA> Eronarn: i don't have any good ideas for 2s :P
11:52:06 <Eronarn> feh, don't let that stop you
11:52:13 <Zaba> psyshvl, for presenting the idea, keep things simple
11:52:25 <psyshvl> okay
11:52:26 <Zaba> psyshvl, you're not casting the vaults in stone.  You can always add things.
11:52:32 <psyshvl> that's true
11:52:41 <psyshvl> Didn't really think about that
11:52:49 <Zaba> trying to add everything at once might obscure the idea you're trying to present.
11:54:37 <psyshvl> Yeah, 8 entry vaults is probably a bit on the distracting side
11:55:09 <Zaba> that's too much
11:55:16 <psyshvl> Is 3 good?
11:55:18 <Zaba> most existing portal vaults have less
11:56:34 <Zaba> volcano has 5, ossuary has 5, trove has 6, wizlab has 7 and bailey has 8
11:56:53 <Zaba> ..at least :P
11:58:43 <Zaba> psyshvl, it's more about distributing effort (putting most of it into few but high quality destination vaults), rather than exact numbers...
11:58:58 <psyshvl> yeah
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12:36:37 <Zaba> oh what the fuck...
12:36:46 <Zaba> oh god
12:36:58 <Zaba> if you enter pandemonium from slime, all walls are slimy!
12:42:09 <syllogism> also abyss :P
12:42:13 <Zaba> yeah
12:45:20 <CIA-113> 03zaba * r8668ad04e79a 10/crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: Use orth_adjacent_iterator in _jtd_init_surroundings.
12:45:22 <CIA-113> 03zaba * r727075e130cc 10/crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: Don't do branch-dependent fixup of walls when not on a LEVEL_DUNGEON level.
12:45:24 <CIA-113> 03zaba * ra72c4f9c5c52 10/crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: Slightly tweak a level veto message.
12:53:25 <Ashenzari> Rock worms can be successfully damaged while in walls (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3083) by MarvintheParanoidAndroid
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13:52:41 <Keskitalo> I still have 60 commit mails to browse through and I can already tell several of you have implemented many lovely presents during the holiday season :]
13:59:05 <Eronarn> commit mails? for crawl? that sounds vaguely dangerous
14:09:20 <Keskitalo> Back to housework.. the baby will wake up in an hour probably :) cheers!
14:45:59 <CIA-113> 03j-p-e-g * rae48f81966fd 10/crawl-ref/source/ (13 files in 3 dirs): Add aptitude icons to the skill tab.
14:46:03 <CIA-113> 03j-p-e-g * r4fb79a7168d1 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/ (31 files in 3 dirs): Move more number icons into dc-misc/numbers.
14:46:05 <CIA-113> 03j-p-e-g * raaec00043360 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/ (37 files in 3 dirs): Move status icons into subfolder dc-misc/icons.
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15:04:37 <CIA-113> 03j-p-e-g * r5af1bd839669 10/crawl-ref/source/ (17 files in 5 dirs): Awesome new giant tiles courtesy of co. Thank you!
15:18:53 <galehar> Eronarn: I have been thinking about your idea for armour spellcasting penalty. I'm starting to like it :)
15:18:54 <Henzell> galehar: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
15:18:58 <galehar> !messages
15:18:58 <Henzell> (1/1) jpeg said (20h 43m 57s ago): Could you please detach the command tab? I tried but can't get it to work. Also, thanks for the crash report!
15:20:50 <Eronarn> galehar: that's good to hear; is it due to making a chart of it, or?
15:21:16 <galehar> well sure, why not. We have to think about numbers now.
15:21:23 <Eronarn> (it took me a very long time to come up with it - i have been trying to play medium armour casters for as long as i've played crawl and it's always been frustrating how it worked)
15:21:52 <galehar> there's one I have been thinking about. armour spellcasting = AEVP²
15:21:59 <galehar> It's probably too harsh
15:22:38 <galehar> I mean failing probability (AEVP²)%
15:23:20 <Eronarn> galehar: i have a proposed formula on the wiki: 3 * EVP % failure rate; 'minimum' str/armour = 3*EVP - if you have that value, you take no casting penalty. however, the penalty is split - armour can negate half of the total penalty, strength can negate half.
15:23:33 <Eronarn> and then they overflow between each other at 50% rate
15:24:14 <Eronarn> so, leather armour = 3% failure penalty on all spells, negated to 0% by having 3 str + 3 armour, or 9 str (and 0 armour), or 9 armour (and 0 str)
15:24:57 <Eronarn> ring mail = 6%, with negation requiring 6 str + 6 armour, or 18 str + 0 armour, etc.
15:25:11 <TGWiglaf> seems too much to manage so many pseudo-requirements
15:25:17 <TGWiglaf> also eliminating penalties is nuts
15:25:40 <Eronarn> TGWiglaf: yeah, there was discussion of having a penalty which could never be eliminated (say, EVP%)
15:26:05 <TGWiglaf> firstly since that means you only ever need a certain amount of skill/str (even in CPM or whatev)
15:26:10 <TGWiglaf> secondly because come on that's nuts
15:26:16 <Eronarn> i think 3*EVP% is fair for someone who is totally 'unqualified' to wear the armour (even ring mail is 6% autofail)
15:26:18 <galehar> b back in a minute
15:26:59 <galehar> sorry I have to take care of something
15:27:17 <syllogism> how would you show that on the Z screen
15:27:20 <Eronarn> TGWiglaf: well, that's the way shields work already :P but: for, say, -5 EVP armour you need 15 armour skill and 15 str to negate it with that proposal, that's noticeably hefty
15:27:31 <syllogism> just combine it with the actual spell success?
15:27:56 <Eronarn> numbers could use tweaking but i don't think having flawless in-armour casting is necessarily bad if it's not possible to attain easily
15:28:33 <Eronarn> syllogism: that's a bit tricky: it would be worthwhile to know the actual independent failure rate, but there isn't room to show both
15:28:42 <syllogism> yes
15:29:01 <Eronarn> it could be that you calculate the net failure rate, and display it there, and display your armour failure rate at - say - the bottom of the screen
15:29:49 <Eronarn> one difficulty is how to express the failure % in a meaningful way, since we can't show it directly
15:29:58 <Eronarn> as basically no other scale works that way in crawl
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15:30:55 <TGWiglaf> turtle shields should be hella awesome but require 27 shd for ogres and whatnot
15:30:57 <Eronarn> we'd be pretty constrained there... having more than, say, 50% chance of autofail from armour is gonna be unlikely
15:30:59 <TGWiglaf> just to make that matter
15:31:06 <TGWiglaf> not sure if that would require a ridiculous ridiculous penalty
15:31:25 <TGWiglaf> or, ogres should lose their bonus to shields because that's weird anyway
15:31:51 <Eronarn> TGWiglaf: well the idea is that they're bigger so they're easier to use but really that should just be taken into account by their strength making shields easier to use
15:32:08 <TGWiglaf> something like that
15:32:27 <Eronarn> if anything ogres should get a penalty since a same sized shield covers less of them
15:32:31 <Eronarn> but, ~crawl~
15:32:41 <TGWiglaf> I don't really have a problem with small guys having a penalty
15:32:52 <TGWiglaf> but the bonus for ogres is weird because what you said
15:33:09 <TGWiglaf> applying size factor to SH would have such a big backlash
15:33:20 <TGWiglaf> more ogre nerfs and spriggan buffs
15:33:29 <Eronarn> i wonder if we should just make shields work exactly like the next one up/down
15:33:35 <Eronarn> so ogre large shield is like a shield on a human
15:33:39 <TGWiglaf> not sure it's possible to change anything without nerfing ogres and buffing spriggans
15:33:42 <TGWiglaf> ever
15:33:42 <Eronarn> spriggan buckler is like a shield on a human
15:34:18 <TGWiglaf> Eronarn: that wouldn't really have an impact though
15:34:35 <TGWiglaf> it's just a ban on large shields for ogres
15:34:51 <Eronarn> TGWiglaf: well it would make weightings match reality better; you'd want to add an ogre-sized shield though yeah
15:35:03 <TGWiglaf> it would be a flavour mechanic
15:35:09 <TGWiglaf> more or less
15:35:19 <Eronarn> it could have mechanical impact with not-that-many other changes
15:35:30 <TGWiglaf> no real effect though because you can just pick up an n+/-1 shield instead of an n-shield
15:35:51 <Eronarn> TGWiglaf: no spriggan-sized bucklers, duh
15:36:14 <TGWiglaf> spriggan megalarge shields
15:36:15 <Eronarn> armies would forge a giant shield for their giants, but what kind of army would choose to outfit spriggans
15:36:34 <TGWiglaf> the smart kind
15:36:37 <TGWiglaf> this is crawl
15:36:44 <TGWiglaf> spriggans beat up ogres
15:36:45 <Eronarn> shhh
15:37:05 <TGWiglaf> FR: ogres get a "step on" aux
15:37:09 <Eronarn> ps TGWiglaf did you hear about sticky freeze
15:37:11 <TGWiglaf> instantly kills spriggans
15:37:15 <TGWiglaf> no
15:37:24 <Eronarn> sticky flame got nerfed to range 1 and is probably going to be made autohit
15:37:35 <TGWiglaf> buh, autohit?
15:38:11 <Eronarn> i want it to be a touch spell like conf touch except also fix the touch spell interface so you don't have to swap
15:38:22 <Eronarn> touch light in elemental fire colours
15:38:25 <Eronarn> think about it, man
15:38:31 <elliptic> eronarn: it is autohit already
15:38:43 <Eronarn> oh, last i heard that hadn't happened yet
15:38:48 <Eronarn> and it was range 1 but not autohit
15:39:03 <elliptic> that's what I thought too but marvinpa pointed out that it was actually made autohit in that commit too
15:39:14 <Eronarn> oh well, sticky freeze is still dumb
15:39:20 <MarvinPA> it's autohit and not range-boosted by veh
15:39:35 <MarvinPA> so at least it's consistent with freeze/vamp draining
15:39:52 <MarvinPA> also i like that freeze was made veh-supported
15:40:05 <MarvinPA> and that just means you get wizardry on a level 1 spell
15:40:14 <TGWiglaf> veh should stop getting special cases but idk
15:40:44 <Eronarn> is ignite poison counted as a destructive spell
15:40:55 <MarvinPA> for some reason, yes
15:41:05 <MarvinPA> ??Vehumet[3]
15:41:06 <Henzell> vehumet[3/4]: Vehumet's wizardry effect kicks in at piety 50. Reduces spell failure chance by 1/3 for the following spells: any Conjuration, any Summoning, Airstrike, Bone Shards, Ignite Poison, Ozocubu's Refrigeration, Sandblast, LRD, and Shatter
15:41:12 <Eronarn> rip bone shards
15:41:14 <TGWiglaf> bone shards, ha
15:41:27 <MarvinPA> !learn edit vehumet[3] s/$/. Also Tornado and Freeze in 0.8./
15:41:28 <Henzell> vehumet[3/4]: Vehumet's wizardry effect kicks in at piety 50. Reduces spell failure chance by 1/3 for the following spells: any Conjuration, any Summoning, Airstrike, Bone Shards, Ignite Poison, Ozocubu's Refrigeration, Sandblast, LRD, and Shatter. Also Tornado and Freeze in 0.8.
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15:43:59 <TGWiglaf> hey dpeg
15:47:24 <dpeg> Hi
15:47:24 <Henzell> dpeg: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
15:47:28 <dpeg> !messages
15:47:29 <Henzell> (1/1) due said (19h 42m 17s ago): Thanks for the help. :)
15:47:37 <dpeg> due: :)
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15:58:12 <galehar> back
15:58:23 <galehar> Eronarn: strength is already factored in AEVP
15:59:39 <galehar> About interface, I say we can put some description in @ about armour penalty. And in the spell screen, we can combine the 2 penalties. It's easy.
16:00:13 <dpeg> What is todays topic?
16:00:42 <galehar> same as yesterday's, armoured spellcasting! :)
16:01:02 <galehar> except I'm with Eronarn now. I like his idea
16:01:45 <dpeg> details, please!
16:02:03 <galehar> If you have 80% chance of success and 30% armour penalty (= 70% success), then your net success is 56%.
16:02:49 <Napkin> "The Tavern (Forums)" -> "The Tavern" - otherwise it just looks sucky :)
16:02:50 <dpeg> so two indepenent checks?
16:03:00 <galehar> yes
16:03:02 <dpeg> Napkin: Hallo!
16:03:13 <Napkin> hey dpeg
16:03:22 <galehar> but the interface can hide it.
16:03:30 <dpeg> galehar: the armour effect is oblivious to spell level?
16:03:40 <galehar> yes
16:04:14 <galehar> spell level affect the first roll (int, spellcasting and school skills)
16:04:22 <CIA-113> 03j-p-e-g * rad30ae6ea77f 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-misc/numbers/ (9 files): Experimentally shift number icons 1 pixel to the right.
16:04:23 <CIA-113> 03j-p-e-g * r28ad88b2f2a2 10/crawl-ref/source/ (4 files in 2 dirs): Add outlined variants of the number icons, use them in the skill tab.
16:04:24 <CIA-113> 03j-p-e-g * r303463394a07 10/crawl-ref/CREDITS.txt: Add co to the credits.
16:04:52 <galehar> the second roll is only about base armour, strength and armour skill. So, we can just use AEVP.
16:05:08 <Napkin> hey galehar - try to reach me during the day about your login to CDO? currently i'm so exhausted in the evenings, and it needs a bit of explaining to find your way around
16:05:22 <dpeg> galehar: okay
16:05:24 <galehar> Eronarn proposed 3*AEVP, I proposed AEVP² (for % chance of failure)
16:06:33 <galehar> Napkin: nothing urgent. I don't have much time too. It's just that I'd like to be able to force CDO update when I fix an important bug.
16:06:48 <Napkin> of course
16:07:13 <Napkin> you could already send me your public ssh key when you find the time.. and i'll to the guide later
16:07:18 <galehar> End of the week, I'll have some time during the day (back to work).
16:07:30 <galehar> ok
16:09:43 <Eronarn> galehar: for mine, i was actually meaning EVP, sorry
16:09:49 <Eronarn> as listed on the item
16:10:54 <Eronarn> it's no good to apply your strength as a bonus more than once, of course
16:11:22 <Eronarn> AEVP might be usable directly, i don't know the formula offhand though
16:11:48 <galehar> ??AEVP
16:11:48 <Henzell> aevp[1/1]: Adjusted body armour evasion penalty. Affects spell success, melee accuracy. Its value is [base_penalty + max(0, 3*base_penalty - str)] * [45 - armour_skill]/45.
16:12:33 <dpeg> galehar: is the success change with or without your tweak of the 45?
16:12:35 <galehar> at max skill, it's 0.4*EVP
16:12:59 <galehar> dpeg: no tweak
16:13:22 <galehar> well, I'm not sure, I haven't done charts yet
16:13:29 <galehar> I am doing one
16:13:51 <Eronarn> ah, so it becomes: -EVP%, then up to -3x EVP% from low str
16:14:04 <Eronarn> this seems reasonable, it will probably track somewhat closely to what i had proposed
16:14:47 <Eronarn> in fact the main difference is really that in mine, armour skill directly subtracts from a penalty, whereas in this it is a multiplier
16:18:23 <galehar> if you keep armour skill at 3*EVP, then 3*AEVP and AEVP² are very close
16:20:39 <Eronarn> hmm, the .4 * should be okay i think
16:20:56 <Eronarn> since that means in CPM or something, you always have a ~5% failure rate
16:21:16 <galehar> yes, I like that
16:21:18 <Eronarn> and it takes a lot of skill ot get even that
16:22:06 <Eronarn> one question would be: do we also want a penalty to spell success, separate from the always-fail %?
16:22:23 <Eronarn> i'll use an analogy here - using a bigger weapon means you land less hits, because it is less accurate, and also because it is slower
16:23:02 <Eronarn> armour could have both an autofail chance, and a general hampering effect (less so than it has right now, but still present)
16:23:45 <galehar> If you have 80% chance of success and 30% armour penalty (= 70% success), then your net success is 56%.
16:23:58 <dpeg> I have read that before :)
16:24:03 <galehar> Let's just combine the 2 penalties
16:24:22 <galehar> dpeg: yes :)
16:24:24 <syllogism> I forgot, do spell skills reduce miscast severity?
16:24:28 <Eronarn> yes
16:24:38 <Eronarn> not directly, but in practice yes
16:25:07 <galehar> I don't know the exact formula of miscast, but I think it depends on how bad you missed and maybe also on the spell level
16:25:31 <syllogism> should probably be more severe when you miscast due to armor
16:25:34 <Eronarn> yes, it's based on how badly you failed
16:25:35 <galehar> that's why the armour penalty has to be combined with the spell success, so that it actually increase the miscasts
16:25:43 <elliptic> galehar: yeah, depends on both
16:26:08 <Eronarn> syllogism: we do have the option of making armor failure distinct from skill failure
16:26:26 <galehar> but combined 2 success chance is as simple as multiplying them.
16:26:45 <galehar> Eronarn: how?
16:27:06 <Eronarn> galehar: it will require a bit more work than that because the success chance is 3d vs. your # and there's no way to directly compare the odds as coded right now
16:27:33 <Eronarn> galehar: like: armor miscasts are worse, or armor miscasts are *less* worse (you didn't have a lack of knowledge, you just couldn't move your arm fast enough or whatever)
16:27:51 <dpeg> I don't think we need a system like that...
16:28:09 <syllogism> severe miscasts are very rare currently
16:28:09 <dpeg> ...miscasts are not ideal anyway, so increasing complexity there seems unwise.
16:28:34 <Eronarn> for starters it's probably okay to just see how the system works with normal miscasts
16:28:44 <galehar> syllogism: except when you forgot to remove your shield to victory dance and end up in the abyss :)
16:28:45 <elliptic> syllogism: not really, depends on when you start casting
16:28:47 <syllogism> though mostly due to players never casting when their success rate isn't high enough
16:29:00 <elliptic> people who don't know better and cast at fair or good or even very good get nasty miscasts
16:29:39 <elliptic> and I got abyssed once by casting haunt at great (and this was back when it was only L6)
16:29:48 <syllogism> once :P
16:29:59 <elliptic> well, I tried not to cast it at great after that :P
16:30:05 <Eronarn> having miscasts like that be rare is good, anyhow
16:31:43 <galehar> This one is much simpler than yesterday's one
16:31:44 <galehar> https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AqvhLOPFHpiMdGNXWHBZZk9HTDBWYjVPUG04c2I1T2c&hl=en&authkey=CMmviqQO
16:32:14 <elliptic> why do you have the skill varying like that, by the way?
16:32:36 <elliptic> people don't move up gradually in armour like that as their skill increases
16:32:53 <galehar> the default value for the skill is 3*EVP, to show a normal progression
16:33:07 <galehar> really? I thought they did
16:33:12 <elliptic> no
16:34:18 <elliptic> serious armoured chars tend to just slap on the first plate they see, whereas casters will wait for something good like dragon armour
16:34:44 <Eronarn> galehar: i think that squared is too low on the low end
16:34:52 <elliptic> and because of how skill works, it isn't that hard for any char to get up to the 10-15 range for armour skill
16:35:09 <Eronarn> elliptic: you can change the skill by modifying the skill -1 box
16:36:16 <elliptic> this is all in addition to something like the current system, right?
16:36:16 <Eronarn> i wonder if AEVP*4 would be better than *3, though i do prefer *3 to ^2
16:36:35 <elliptic> an extra success check on top of that?
16:37:05 <Eronarn> elliptic: this would be moving spell failure out of the current spell calcs (but otherwise keeping them the same), and then multiplying by a factor that can only be reduced by str/armour skill
16:37:29 <Eronarn> so it needs to be reasonably substantial
16:38:06 <elliptic> but "by current spell calcs" do you mean that that is affected by AEVP also?
16:38:33 <galehar> We keep the current formula for casting but remove the armour penalty from it. You make a separate roll for armour.
16:38:49 <galehar> or we combine the 2 success chance in an equivalent way
16:39:10 <Eronarn> though there is also the option of just reducing, not removing, so that there's a penalty at the success calculation level but not as large of one as right now
16:39:19 <elliptic> oh, that sounds like a major buff for casting in armour then if the only penalty for doing so is this extra failure roll
16:39:33 <elliptic> eronarn: that sounds better to me
16:40:13 <galehar> ok
16:40:15 <Eronarn> it's a buff to casting in armour with lower magic skills; if your magic skills made casting in armour trivial already, it's a nerf
16:40:43 <Eronarn> so it'll be better for high-end spells, worse for low-end ones
16:40:48 <elliptic> eronarn: yeah, but it is never trivial to cast everything you want to cast :) there are always some spells that are borderline
16:41:35 <Eronarn> right, but these penalties would apply to stuff like blink or sputterflies, which is right now where you get a lot of utility from if you're an armoured caster who can't use high level stuff at all
16:41:52 <elliptic> I don't know, maybe separating it completely like this is reasonable with numbers tweaked enough
16:41:54 <Eronarn> but yeah, i say we keep a partial version of the current penalty, at least for testing
16:42:11 <Eronarn> see how stuff like orc / dwarf armoured casters work
16:42:41 <dpeg> using two systems will lead to confusion a few years from now
16:43:15 <Eronarn> well, we could just axe what's there - but the formula will be tricky to get right
16:43:27 <elliptic> dpeg: the simplest system would be to have heavy armour just affect success in this one way, yes
16:43:32 <elliptic> and axe what's there
16:43:59 <Eronarn> (also, we should think about shields with this - the shield penalty for casting is arguably far too low, and it would become even lower if we moved it to this system)
16:43:59 <elliptic> I'm a little uncertain how it would play, but it could be good
16:44:23 <elliptic> eronarn: currently the shield penalty for casting is just like the other shield penalties
16:44:33 <elliptic> it can be brought to 0 with enough skill
16:45:47 <Eronarn> yeah, i'm talking about at low skill though
16:46:03 <Eronarn> putting on a large shield with little skill ruins your casting pretty bad, but it might not with this formula
16:46:20 <galehar> I added 4*AEVP to the chart. Looks good.
16:46:23 <Eronarn> 3% failure rate if you have enough str or something
16:46:41 <elliptic> I like AEVP^2 better than 3 or 4 * AEVP
16:46:56 <elliptic> 4*AEVP has the issue that casters will *never* want to use leather
16:47:28 <galehar> I like AEVP² too :)
16:47:30 <elliptic> remember that low GDR doesn't matter much
16:47:37 <Eronarn> i don't like how ^2 works at the low end, it seems to make it too easy to have almost no penalty
16:47:51 <elliptic> eronarn: that's good, leather has almost no benefit also
16:48:02 <elliptic> leather provides 5% GDR, which basically means nothing
16:48:09 <Eronarn> what about (AEVP+1)^2? so that it's never squaring a decimal
16:48:32 <Eronarn> leather would still be only ~1%
16:48:59 <elliptic> 1% is still a bad deal, and it would be more than that
16:49:52 <syllogism> ??spell success
16:49:52 <Henzell> spell success[1/1]: Memorisation adjectives and success-rates as follows: Very Challenging (useless 0%, terrible 0-5%); Quite Challenging (cruddy 5-10%, bad 10-20%); Rather Challenging (very poor 20-30%, poor 30-50%); Somewhat Challenging (fair 50-70%, good 70-80%, very good 80-90%); Not That Challenging (great 90-95%, excellent 95-99%, perfect 100%).
16:50:04 <elliptic> 2.7% extra failure chance (at 15 armour skill at that) in leather? not worth it, ever
16:50:27 <syllogism> why would anyone use leather anyway
16:50:29 <Eronarn> oh, guess it gets to 2% instead
16:51:14 <elliptic> syllogism: with the current system leather isn't much worse than a robe, so you might use it if it has an ego you want or if it is a good randart
16:51:43 <Eronarn> eh, what the hell, give ^2 a try
16:51:45 <syllogism> then it might be worth it
16:51:48 <Eronarn> it will at least make for interesting play
16:51:50 <Eronarn> if nothing else
16:53:27 <elliptic> testing out AEVP^2 looks reasonable enough to me
16:53:33 <syllogism> but rarely, mostly if you find a leather armour of pr early on
16:53:42 <galehar> ok, I'm adding it to the wiki, because I don't know when I'll have the time to code it.
16:54:21 <elliptic> syllogism: I've used leather armour of rF+ in zot multiple times
16:54:30 <elliptic> sometimes you just don't find a good robe
16:54:38 <syllogism> it's very rare
16:54:44 <Adeon> I didn't even know leather doesn't affect spell success rate
16:54:53 <syllogism> 2.7% is like one or two points of int
16:54:58 <Adeon> ergh, the other way around
16:56:17 <elliptic> syllogism: more than that at the high end
16:56:27 <syllogism> yes, maybe 2 int then
16:57:11 <syllogism> not that I'm saying it shouldn't be lower
16:59:26 <casmith789> well leather can be enchanted to +3 and robes to +2 iirc, so that's one reason to prefer leather already if they both have minimal effects on casting
16:59:36 <CIA-113> 03j-p-e-g * r9319fadfa648 10/crawl-ref/source/describe.cc: If no verbose command description is available, use the terse one.
17:02:41 <MarvinPA> robes get resistance and archmagi :P
17:02:49 <Eronarn> nerf resistance / archmagi
17:03:17 <MarvinPA> well they both just got -6 AC
17:06:05 <Eronarn> pft, as if that will stop people from wearing resistance
17:06:26 <due> hii
17:06:47 <syllogism> not -6 compared to leather though :P
17:07:02 <due> dpeg: I reimagined Leda's :)
17:07:07 <due> Much simpler now.
17:09:30 <Eronarn> impressive turnaround time on it, due
17:10:15 <due> Eronarn: I spent about six hours rwith dpeg coming up with a complicated power/duration/body weight/previous turns paralysed formula for determining "getting stuck" when I finall said "fuck it, halo-like slow".
17:10:49 <Eronarn> heh
17:10:56 <monky> so is it like haste but worse or am I missing something
17:11:05 <MarvinPA> can someone update CDO so we can try it? :P
17:15:54 <due> oh
17:16:00 <due> isn't it onCDO yet?
17:16:06 <syllogism> it's like haste but better :P
17:16:15 <due> syllogism: really? interesting.
17:16:15 <syllogism> well not really but close
17:16:27 <syllogism> since it's not useful for escaping
17:16:29 <MarvinPA> no, at least i did spell lookup and it didn't appear
17:16:31 <due> does it being XL6 provide any nerfiness?
17:16:43 <due> updating
17:17:14 <syllogism> you can use it constantly since it doesnt make you glow and has a fairly long duration
17:17:35 <MarvinPA> it's only good against melee enemies though, presumably
17:17:41 <Eronarn> does it do anything to fliers?
17:17:44 <syllogism> no
17:17:45 <Eronarn> because, uh, crawl has a lot of those
17:17:55 <syllogism> MarvinPA: why
17:18:03 <MarvinPA> doesn't it act like ponderousness?
17:18:06 <MarvinPA> that's what the commit says at least
17:18:18 <syllogism> monsters use speed for everything
17:18:24 <MarvinPA> oh, weird
17:18:27 <due> MarvinPA: it creates an aura of slow around you' you stand still spitting spells and shit at slowed monsters as they approach you, basically.
17:18:39 <MarvinPA> right, so it's not actually like ponderousness
17:18:51 <syllogism> it slows the player down like ponderousness
17:19:02 <MarvinPA> ohh right yeah
17:19:12 <MarvinPA> i see now, i was misreading the description in the commit
17:19:29 <Eronarn> oh, that's kind of weird
17:19:35 <due> kilobyte: If you really want shedu + lamassu, sure; I was the original author of theshedu, so I don't know why you got messed around.
17:19:48 <kilobyte> so it slows down monster melee but not player's melee, right?
17:19:53 <syllogism> right
17:20:11 <kilobyte> due: it's your idea, your turf
17:20:14 <due> the way it works now is kinda faulty
17:20:20 <monky> I wonder how well it would work with haste
17:20:32 <due> kilobyte: with monster serials I'm not sure it's an issue any more :D
17:20:55 <due> It currently hacks in an ENCH_SLOW for every turn on liquefied ground.
17:20:59 <Eronarn> monky: now i am envisioning someone casting it and then haste and just buried knee deep in mud shooting lightning bolts EVERYWHERE super fast
17:21:27 <MarvinPA> Eronarn: also it says it doesn't affect fliers, since you asked
17:21:40 <monky> does it provide an earth enhancer and negative air enhancer
17:21:43 <Eronarn> now we just need Gravity Flux
17:21:44 <MarvinPA> (there needs to be a gravity hex to bring fliers to the ground then shatter them)
17:22:56 <Eronarn> MarvinPA: i want to see gravity flux as an a menu thing: increased gravity, and for the duration of the spell you can spend a turn refocusing the energies to flip gravity
17:22:57 <syllogism> haste flag isn't shown when liquefaction is in effect
17:23:05 <Eronarn> so you slam shit into the floor, then the ceiling, then the floor...
17:23:19 <MarvinPA> hah, awesome
17:23:53 <due> I am in looove with the amount of tiles people doing stuff :D
17:24:05 <Eronarn> this would also have synergy with the proposed earth spell to make the floor grow spikes!
17:24:23 <elliptic> liquefaction blocks flying, right? what happens when you cast tornado and liquefaction simultaneously?
17:24:32 <Eronarn> elliptic: shit hits the fan
17:24:55 <kilobyte> currently the fan pulls you up
17:25:04 <due> elliptic: Tornado is strong enough to pull you up.
17:25:11 <due> It should probably cancel Liquefaction in that case.
17:25:18 <elliptic> and it also pulls the monsters up, too, so liquefaction does nothing?
17:25:28 <kilobyte> yes
17:26:38 <Eronarn> does liquefaction hurt earthy monsters?
17:27:14 <kilobyte> no, at least not right now
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17:27:52 <due> it doesn't hurt anything
17:28:06 <due> I'm thinking on a monster type ... sandworm or something...
17:28:15 <due> Can submerge into lquefied ground, liquefies a halo around itself
17:28:23 <due> But can only move on floor.
17:29:16 <kilobyte> so you'd cheese it from shallow water
17:30:18 <Eronarn> kilobyte: fighting from shallow water isn't exactly unpenalized either
17:30:31 <monky> cheese it if you're a merfolk or kenku
17:30:44 <due> There's the same fumble chance from liquefied ground as shallow water.
17:30:47 <kilobyte> Eronarn: reaching
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17:31:04 <kilobyte> or spells
17:31:22 <due> huh
17:31:28 <Eronarn> kilobyte: ok so if someone has a reaching weapon and there's shallow water on the level and they can get to it while liquefied... it submerges into the liquefied rock, presumably
17:31:37 <due> CXX it_use3.o
17:31:37 <due> initfile.cc:626: warning: ‘std::string _user_home_crawl_subpath(std::string)’ defined but not used
17:31:45 <monky> if nomes ever go in, how would they play with liquefied ground?
17:31:48 <Eronarn> and even if we let reaching hit into that, is it really a big deal
17:31:50 <monky> nomes/gnomes
17:32:04 <due> monky: I'm all for instadeath for small creatures sinking and drowning :D
17:32:05 <due> ;)
17:32:26 <monky> I mean the same nomes that swim in rock
17:32:35 <kilobyte> don't gnomes SWIM throught rock?
17:33:02 <Eronarn> monky: maybe the reason why they can move through walls is because they liquefy rock around them, and the slow penalty after moving is them wading out of the liquefied floor
17:33:19 <monky> sure
17:33:38 <kilobyte> so they would get a strong boost to this spell
17:35:10 <due> anyway, should I consider reimplementing the monster speed malus as purely to movement?
17:35:12 <Gretell> Unstable branch on CDO updated to: 0.8.0-a0-4163-g9319fad (31.22)
17:35:28 <MarvinPA> huzzah
17:35:29 <Eronarn> due: yes
17:35:35 <casmith789> if it's purely to movement the spell will be very bad imo
17:35:46 <due> casmith789: why?
17:35:57 <Eronarn> casmith789: 'can't retreat against many monsters, but they take twice as long to reach you' is interesting
17:36:05 <Eronarn> well, not twice now i guess
17:36:23 <Eronarn> er, *the other ones take
17:36:35 <due> It would be like making them speed 10 (movement 120%) or smoething.
17:36:43 <casmith789> because the significant threats for a caster lategame are ranged
17:37:20 <Eronarn> well presumably it'd drop in level if it no longer hit monster act speed
17:40:05 <due> okay, liquefaction is on CDO
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17:44:01 <due> How long ago did articulated kraken get done?
17:44:28 <due> oh, hi pointless_
17:44:36 <pointless_> hi
17:44:50 <pointless_> "a while ago" ?
17:45:02 <due> Yeah.
17:45:04 <Ashenzari> Scrolls of curse foo under Ashenzari can't be found using ctrl+f (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3084) by casmith789
17:45:32 <due> july 25th
17:46:32 <MarvinPA> casmith789: the default config filters them out
17:46:39 <MarvinPA> look for stash_filter and delete it/comment it out
17:46:51 <casmith789> still a bug
17:46:53 <MarvinPA> but yeah it probably shouldn't do that
17:48:29 <due> I wonder how many people will complain "bug, searching for scrolls finds useless scrolls" if we removed curse foo from the stash filter.
17:48:33 <due> :-?
17:48:46 <kilobyte> "bug"?
17:48:47 <casmith789> scroll of noise is another one
17:49:06 <Mu_> co's giants look nice
17:49:12 <kilobyte> it'a a nasty bug they don't show up
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17:49:36 <MarvinPA> why shouldn't they show up if you explicitly search for them, yeah
17:49:40 <dpeg> due: clearly, we need context
17:49:49 <MarvinPA> also search colouring is in now so you can just gloss past them
17:49:54 <MarvinPA> if they're useless
17:50:01 <MarvinPA> (and the bug for wrong colouring is fixed)
17:50:05 <kilobyte> scrolls of noise are useful more often than the "emergency item" fog
17:50:15 <casmith789> searching for "scroll of noise" has no results and that's quite annoying :)
17:50:37 <dpeg> If not following Ash, suppress them when searching for "curse" (plus a hint that matching bad items are suppresses) -- alternatively, show them, but at the end, separately: "Matching bad items."
17:50:56 <dpeg> kilobyte: why do you hate fog?
17:50:59 <kilobyte> if you search for "scroll", not showing noise can't be argued to not be a bug
17:51:52 <due> dpeg: Oh, I'm not saying it's a bug
17:52:01 <kilobyte> dpeg: since highlights advertise it as useful, while most other actions would be far more beneficial
17:52:13 <due> I think stash filter should die because they're not useless if you're wanting to search for scrolls of useless shit to sacrifice to nemelex.
17:52:20 <MarvinPA> immolation and hunger (for vampires) are also arguably not useless
17:52:20 <kilobyte> including making a step away
17:52:25 <MarvinPA> but are filtered out by default
17:52:42 <dpeg> well, there are reasons to filter
17:52:48 <monky> doesn't nemelex base sacrifices on gold value now or something, so useless scrolls don't appease him?
17:52:51 <monky> (or am I confused)
17:52:52 <casmith789> what things are filtered?
17:53:03 <casmith789> just bad scrolls/amulets/rings?
17:53:16 <dpeg> we should just list up-front that "Foo (list of items) is filtered out", together with a way to force full search, eg. a shriek: Ctrl-F "curse!"
17:53:17 <MarvinPA> curse foo, immolation, random uselessness, paper, ring of hunger, amulet of inacc
17:53:19 <kilobyte> solutions: 1. disable the filter by default. 2. just nuke it altogether
17:53:31 <MarvinPA> oh and noise
17:53:39 <casmith789> oh so hardly anything?
17:54:11 <dpeg> casmith789: stuff that someone considered to be strictly bad, but in a game like Crawl, nothing really is all the time
17:54:42 <due> kilobyte: is mid consistent across polymorph?
17:54:45 <casmith789> yes, I've used a scroll of random uselessness as an escape item before :p
17:54:53 <monky> butterflies?
17:55:05 <MarvinPA> well a safe start would be to remove noise from there since it's very definitely not strictly bad
17:55:07 <Ashenzari> error trying to create item on lugonu altar (message below) (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3085) by mikee
17:55:15 <MarvinPA> searching for noise before doing shoals is probably a good game plan
17:55:16 <due> hah
17:55:21 <due> bet it's something that got nuked as a nitem
17:55:25 <due> but is still in the des.
17:55:34 <due> ahhh.
17:55:36 <due> .
17:55:39 <due> rod if divination!
17:55:55 <MarvinPA> loads of detect curse scrolls :P
17:56:16 <MarvinPA> also that vault still gives quite useful items a lot of the time, like rods with abjuration in to makhlebites
17:56:20 <elliptic> that vault had other issues last I saw it, yeah
17:56:39 <kilobyte> due: yes
17:56:43 <due> kilobyte: <3
17:56:53 <due> kilobyte: I can basically refactor the entirety of mon-death :D
17:58:36 <due> Rod of divination is gone?
17:59:15 <elliptic> rod of discovery was removed, yes
17:59:39 <due> oh well
18:00:03 <CIA-113> 03due * rf0218caef167 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/altar.des: Fix #3085: no item for Ashenzari with tgw_lugonu_bribe.
18:00:09 <due> I hope I didn't push too much there
18:00:09 <due> Oh yay
18:00:28 <kilobyte> Xom still has Detect Monsters, though
18:00:47 <Mu_> rod of discovery of distortion
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18:05:01 <Gretell> casmith789 (L18 DrAE)  (Vault:3)
18:05:06 <casmith789> aaargh
18:05:11 <due> "lol"?
18:05:24 <due> !lm casmith789 -log
18:05:24 <Sequell> 6017. casmith789, XL18 DrAE, T:56350 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/casmith789/crash-casmith789-20101229-000502.txt
18:05:27 <casmith789> stair mimic was chasing me so dunno if that was to do with it
18:05:32 <elliptic> due: you gave ashenzari worshippers scrolls of remove curse
18:05:41 <elliptic> ash worshippers *love* remove curse
18:05:50 <MarvinPA> oh i crashed recently with a feature mimic chasing me
18:05:55 <due> m
18:06:00 <Mu_> maybe give identify
18:06:02 <MarvinPA> https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3068
18:06:05 <due> it crashed in mons_is_known_mimic?
18:06:09 <MarvinPA> identify would also be useful
18:06:11 <due> feature mimics are on my list
18:06:24 <Mu_> how would identify be useful doesn't ash auto everything
18:06:27 <MarvinPA> not everything
18:06:28 <elliptic> not everything
18:06:31 <MarvinPA> snap
18:06:36 <Mu_> o ok
18:06:39 <monky> easy fix: Ashenzari="no"
18:06:40 <Mu_> never played him
18:06:49 <MarvinPA> detect curse would be useless (also nearly useless for non-ash worshippers but hey)
18:07:00 <Mu_> manual of divinations
18:07:02 <due> Detect curse is on the list?
18:07:05 <casmith789> identify scrolls basically mean that you can find out all your potions and the charges on your wands
18:07:31 <due> MarvinPA: oh, thanks for the save file, this willbe useful.
18:07:52 <elliptic> due: you have ash worshippers getting either 5-10 detect curse or 5-10 remove curse... the latter needs to be changed since ash uses remove curse all the time
18:08:09 <Mu_> amulet of clarity? :p
18:08:11 <due> elliptic: feh, okay.
18:08:15 <elliptic> clarity is a good idea
18:08:18 <casmith789> that sounds good
18:08:21 <MarvinPA> clarity and Sinv would be nearly useless, yeah
18:09:23 <CIA-113> 03due * r99f35bfacb53 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/altar.des: Don't give remove curse scrolls (everyone).
18:09:33 * Mu_ massages due.
18:09:36 <MarvinPA> heh
18:10:08 <monky> another problem: zin doesn't hate gain stat potions (but the altar vault gives them out to zin worshipers)
18:10:40 <due> MarvinPA: <3
18:10:48 <due> ... Mu gets my loove.
18:10:54 <due> You other m-named people don't.
18:10:58 <Mu_> :O
18:11:03 <MarvinPA> :(
18:11:20 <due> Mu_: I updated the tile page on the wiki with quick descriptionns of the new eldritch horrors; can yougive it a read and add suggestions/corrections?
18:11:26 <Mu_> ok
18:12:20 <monky> also fedhas and necro books/weapons
18:12:20 <Mu_> lol i didn't intend the mass to be made of starstuff but that might be kinda cool too
18:12:45 <MarvinPA> #2738 has a bunch of stuff on the lugonu vault
18:13:23 <due> Mu_: as I said, corrections ;)
18:14:22 <Mu_> is it possible to just make a list of adjectives and assign them a random one at generation? :P
18:15:18 <due> not really
18:15:57 <kilobyte> uhm, why not?
18:16:22 <kilobyte> just set name_adjective when placing
18:17:06 <due> kilobyte: "what is a <x> <monster>? it's not in the lookup!"
18:17:37 <due> it's programmatically possible
18:17:47 <due> but i dunno if it's practical game-wise
18:18:08 <Eronarn> due: what about looking for words in that dict when people do a search
18:18:17 <Eronarn> if it's not a recognized monster
18:18:18 <dpeg> we have the same issue with Jiyva, I think random names are okay
18:19:02 <Eronarn> you're not going to have squamous or effervescent or whatever used anywhere else in crawl really
18:20:23 <due> I don't want to do it with all the monsters though
18:20:26 <due> otherwise it's too gimmicky
18:20:33 <kilobyte> effervescent vampire?
18:20:44 <due> kilobyte: do I access mid directly or is there a convenience function?
18:21:14 <dpeg> due: sure, but doing it for some themed monsters would be good. And the eldritch batch could fit.
18:21:17 <due> also, "uint32_t", can it be placed in "unsigned int"?
18:21:21 <Eronarn> due: fwiw, the idea i had wrt lovecraftian stuff for SHT was to have a 'generic horror' monster with panlord-like generation
18:21:27 <Eronarn> and have that get randomly named
18:21:33 <due> Eronarn: that's fine
18:21:39 <kilobyte> due: actor_by_mid(), monster_by_mid()
18:21:40 <due> but I've got some cool themes for some of the monsters already
18:21:42 <Eronarn> and then have some more specific premade ones that you could rarely get
18:21:50 <Eronarn> of which tentacled monstrosities would be one
18:21:53 <due> kilobyte: I meant monster->mid or monster->get-mid()?
18:22:20 <Eronarn> also if you link to the page, i will do a word dump
18:22:21 <due> I want to store mid in monster->number but I'm not sure that's safe.
18:22:26 <Eronarn> for the names
18:22:37 <due> meh, will store in props instead
18:22:50 <kilobyte> number is 32 bit?
18:23:11 <kilobyte> if so, it's perfectly safe and much faster
18:23:14 <Mu_> go right down to section 8   https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:tiles:tiles_missing_for_0.8#need_to_have_for_08
18:23:32 <due> good
18:24:02 <due> kilobyte: number is     unsigned int  number;              // #heads (hydra), etc.
18:25:33 <Eronarn> Mu_: do you want me to edit a word dump there though? because that's really a list for tiles
18:25:52 <due> Eronarn: no, put it in the abyss monsters thingy
18:26:04 <due> I have solid ideas for zymes, stars and the horrors.
18:27:00 <Mu_> oh good point
18:27:11 <Mu_> https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:monster:abyss
18:27:12 <due> I love the word "zyme".
18:27:14 <Mu_> here's the abyss monster page
18:27:36 <due> "pathogenic zyme" "carcinomic zyme" "ancient zyme" "pestilent zyme" -- we could have a theme of disease-y names for zymes!
18:27:44 <dpeg> due: yes!
18:27:55 <due> They'll rot, cause sickness and poison.
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18:28:04 <Eronarn> oh, here is the one that was a potential horror:
18:28:05 <due> And possibly stat drain.
18:28:06 <Eronarn> Blade Demon (2)
18:28:06 <Eronarn> Cyan demon, described as a “churning maelstrom of excellent swordsmanship”. It's made entirely of swords, possibly even demon blades only. It can split off parts of itself, like a slime creature's merge but not guaranteed. XP should be handled in such a way that there is no difference between killing it and killing all of its swords.
18:28:11 <Eronarn> sorear had the idea of making it into a Horror (X), rather than a Dis inhabitant 2. I'd be fine with that.
18:28:11 <Mu_> if stars get a cool gimmick i'll feel a little bad that gimmick was denied to sun demons :P
18:28:15 <Eronarn> mu's 'gate demon' from the same page could be cool
18:28:51 <due> portal guardian?
18:29:03 <Eronarn> due: two demons walking one space apart with a portal in the middle that they 'carry'
18:29:24 <due> oh, cool
18:29:32 <Eronarn> we could call it the 'mouth of madness' :D
18:29:55 <dpeg> Mu_: yes, that is an ancient problem: new stuff gets shiny and cool effects, old stuff stays the same... due is a proponent of adding content.
18:30:10 <due> dpeg: Hey, I fluff up old stuff onc ein an while!
18:30:35 <dpeg> due: just saying... this _is_ a concern
18:30:36 <Mu_> but then what society can truly be said to care for its aged :P
18:30:51 <Mu_> terrible era we live in :P
18:31:17 <due> We can always prune the old and the boring.
18:31:33 <due> The whole point of the abyssal horrors is to fill a gap though.
18:31:40 <due> Not to create new stuff and then remove old stuff in place of it.
18:32:53 <Mu_> ye
18:36:38 * due will be very happy with a new batch of abyssal horrors that only ever appear in abyss, not even in SHT.
18:36:45 <due> but diversifying SHT would be great, too
18:37:23 <monky> aren't aboms boring popcorn as it stands?
18:37:25 <Mu_> could take some of the demons out of corruption too
18:38:12 <due> Mu_: well, "appear in abyss" leads to corruptioin, yeah.
18:38:20 <due> I think corruption picks monsters from the abyss list.
18:38:23 <Mu_> oh ok :p
18:39:52 <due> Okay, maximum distance for shedu to be apart: does 10 sound about right?
18:41:05 <MarvinPA> where will all these new holy monsters actually appear? just zigs?
18:42:41 <syllogism> a branch eventually
18:43:05 <MarvinPA> oh huh
18:43:15 <MarvinPA> extended endgame branch?
18:43:22 <MarvinPA> or a replacement for something?
18:43:23 <Eronarn> word dumped on the abyss page
18:43:27 <dpeg> MarvinPA: could be a special Pan level
18:43:31 <Eronarn> gonna add a few other things beyond the word dump though
18:43:48 <MarvinPA> ah yeah i do remember seeing ideas about that
18:44:23 <due> Okay, quick shedu flavour question
18:44:31 <due> Do they resurrect the other shedu from the corpse
18:44:35 <due> therefore the corpse must exist
18:44:37 <Mu_> This otherworldly being is composed of stellar detritus, and glows with all the sickly putrescence of a dying star. It has been given life by some alien process and mutters constantly about the stars not yet being right.
18:44:42 <Mu_> how does that sound for the mass?? :p
18:44:46 <due> Mu_: <3
18:44:58 <due> just make it
18:45:01 <due> "not yet being rightly aligned"
18:45:24 <due> that adds a touch more antiquated speed pattern, perhaps?
18:45:33 <due> or do they create a new shedu?
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18:45:47 <due> Alternately I could dump corpses.
18:45:52 <due> It would be programmatically simpler.
18:46:11 <due> dpeg?
18:47:29 <Mu_> cthulhu was said to rise 'when the stars are right' i always liked how ambiguous it was to just call them right tbh :P
18:47:53 <dpeg> due: just ensure corpse
18:48:40 <monky> impossible to animate normally?
18:48:50 <monky> as a zombie or skeleton, I mean
18:49:13 <monky> though even then, animate skeleton would provide 1-turn butchery on it
18:51:38 <due> Hm, okay, ensured corpse it is.
18:53:10 <due> Means animate dead/animate skeleton/butchery/disint provides an easy way to fix it.
18:54:10 <dpeg> due: how many turns before second life?
18:54:53 <due> currently 1 to 3.
18:54:59 <due> We can make it 2 to 6 or so though.
18:55:11 <Mu_> due do you think tentacled starspawn is too similar to tentacled monstrosity in theme
18:55:14 <dpeg> due: butchery needs two already (if you're adjacent)
18:56:56 <due> Mu_: no
18:57:03 <due> Mu_: we can adjust the hteme
18:57:05 <Mu_> due also i think the star should look more sinister than sad, maybe yellow :3
18:57:10 <due> okay
18:57:33 <due> I just remember an old science fiction novel I read about "the end of time" where the earth's sun had gone red due to old age.
18:57:51 <Mu_> they'd look like orbs of fire thoguh :s
18:58:01 <Eronarn> ok, edited a few more in
18:58:25 <due> Mu_: true.
18:58:44 <due> magenta or lightred thenmaybe
18:59:03 <Eronarn> due: it should clearly be in a colour the player cannot normally see ;)
18:59:05 <monky> I like magenta
18:59:15 <Mu_> i was gonna say lightgreen but that might be too much like spores
18:59:18 <due> Eronarn: octarine of course
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18:59:30 <Mu_> magenta then i guess :P
19:00:10 <Mu_> adjusted tile page
19:00:16 <due> "red giant"
19:00:36 <due> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_giant
19:00:47 <due> "of low or intermediate mass in a late phase of stellar evolution".
19:01:36 <Mu_> i suppose we could give it an elemental colour
19:01:42 <Mu_> if they're rare
19:01:45 <due> yeah
19:01:53 <Eronarn> flickering magneta/lightred would be very eyehurty :D
19:03:04 <Mu_> some nice monster ideas btw Eronarn
19:03:29 <due> yes
19:03:56 <due> I found a list of lovecraftian addjectives
19:04:29 <due> http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111510
19:04:34 <due> Eronarn: Can you import those into your list? <3
19:05:08 <Eronarn> sure
19:06:24 <due> yay
19:09:39 <Eronarn> it's kind of funny that even this giant list doesn't have that much overlap wiht mine
19:10:34 <due> kilobyte: Do you know anything about corpse placement? I'd like to be able to store mid in it.
19:10:44 <due> oh, props, nm!
19:11:50 <monky> and revived shedu don't give any exp, right?
19:11:51 <due> Not sure I'm storing it right but it'll do.
19:12:10 <due> monky: I'm going to make it so you have to kill both of them to get any exp.
19:12:21 <monky> that works
19:12:29 <due> Anyway, while I do a ffull recompile for adding a new constant to defines, I will get some other stuff accomplished.
19:12:32 <due> ciaoo!
19:15:39 <Eronarn> what?!
19:15:42 <Eronarn> this list doesn't have primitive or primeval
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19:22:29 <Eronarn> ok, list saved
19:22:34 <Eronarn> it's now obscenely long
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19:26:30 <due> <3
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20:07:59 <due> yawn
20:08:09 <due> I feel so guilty adding new includs.
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20:20:34 <due> YAY! Resurrection works!
20:20:46 <due> Needs to be a much longer delay and needs some more messages and need to deal with EXP but yay.
20:21:54 <sorear> What are you resurrecting?
20:22:02 <due> Shedu.
20:22:10 <due> They come in pairs.
20:22:21 <due> You kill one, the other one meditates for a few turns and then resurrects it.
20:23:23 <sorear> If you have 4 shedu in an area, will they resurrect members of the other pair?
20:23:29 <due> No.
20:23:40 <due> It uses monster serial numbers to track the pairs.
20:24:32 <due> Which is why the whole thing now works properly.
20:25:30 <due> They also need to pacify in pairs, but that's easily done.
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20:55:20 <Eronarn> due: can the PC just pick up the shedu corpse to prevent resurrection? that would seem pretty bad if so
20:57:13 <due> Eronarn: It'll resurrect the corpse from your pack.
20:57:26 <Eronarn> awesome
20:57:46 <Eronarn> please add that to skele warriors too :D
20:57:50 <Eronarn> if they don't already
20:58:31 <Eronarn> (corpse rot is another one with scummy pickup behavior)
20:58:54 <due> yeah
21:04:01 <due> Hm
21:04:21 <due> does the inventory deal automatically with item destruction?
21:05:15 <due> ... I don't get why the hell this is a constant.
21:08:15 <OG17> self-casted corpse rot shouldn't rot carried corpses, it's like having sticks to snakes animate carried arrows
21:08:50 <Eronarn> OG17: disagree: corpse rot rots every corpse in LOS, sticks to snakes transforms only what's in your hands
21:08:57 <OG17> hostile inventory rot might work but then people'd just drop corpses like they do with mummy potions
21:09:07 <due> I'm undecided.
21:09:10 <Eronarn> corpse rot is more like ignite poison or ozo's refrig
21:09:10 <OG17> it's not in LOS if it's in your bag :|
21:09:13 <Eronarn> both of which hit your inventory
21:09:20 <Eronarn> shatter too
21:09:34 <OG17> the important comparison is that it's a reagent-using spell
21:09:38 <due> easy fix: change the description to only refer to corpses on the ground.
21:09:39 <Eronarn> no it's not
21:09:56 <OG17> having it use that reagent uncontrollably makes the spell a lot more limited
21:09:59 <Eronarn> ignite poison transmutes corpses to flame clouds
21:10:05 <Eronarn> it hits your inventory too
21:10:09 <MarvinPA> ignite poison is silly
21:10:19 <MarvinPA> ozo's refrig does it sensibly
21:10:44 <MarvinPA> and shatter doesn't affect your inventory
21:10:56 <OG17> ignite poison igniting carried potions is part of the reason that no one uses it
21:11:00 <Eronarn> oh, only floor items? that's weird
21:11:10 <MarvinPA> (being fire/tmut 6 is the other reason)
21:11:11 <Eronarn> since it does hit you in statue form or etc.
21:11:18 <MarvinPA> not in trunk
21:11:22 <Eronarn> hooray
21:11:24 <MarvinPA> form self-damage is gone
21:11:26 <MarvinPA> :)
21:11:36 <MarvinPA> i did once shatter my entire potion stash with it though
21:11:38 <MarvinPA> which was fun
21:12:05 <MarvinPA> and contained some 60 curemut or something
21:12:11 <Eronarn> anyhow for corpse rot in particular: i think it's bad that you are encouraged to pick up corpses you're standing on before casting corpse rot; the other way to solve this would be to never make it corpse rot what you are standing on
21:12:23 <due> Eronarn: the latter is easy
21:12:26 <Eronarn> which seems ok: "You emanate a putrefying wave"
21:13:21 <Eronarn> but then the question would be, why don't the other LOS-affecting spells ignore stuff that would be harmful to you
21:13:39 <Eronarn> like OTR hitting you, ignite poison killing your potions, etc.
21:13:53 <OG17> that's not really the issue as much as that inventory rot would make it impossible to carry around a corpse for later use
21:14:41 <OG17> picking up a corpse you're standing on takes a turn anyway, it'd generally be better to just step off it if that's the player's concern
21:15:10 <Eronarn> generally but there are exceptions
21:15:33 <Eronarn> i don't feel that in general spells should encourage picking something up on your tile before casting them
21:15:51 <monky> what about dropping things (orefrig)
21:15:55 <Eronarn> that is also bad
21:15:58 <monky> I agree
21:16:07 <OG17> I like how the current spell can catch you in miasma, though
21:16:15 <Eronarn> the best way to solve this is to consistently handle exposed items whether they're in your inventory or not
21:16:18 <OG17> not triggering on your square would work and all
21:16:36 <MarvinPA> how would you justify wearing conservation making floor potions less likely to shatter
21:16:56 <MarvinPA> (presumably you wouldn't)
21:17:10 <Eronarn> MarvinPA: it's ok if some items introduce scenarios where the general principle wouldn't hold
21:17:16 <Eronarn> like reaching making it possible to scum or etc.
21:17:26 <OG17> reaching?
21:17:46 <Eronarn> OG17: stuff like being a merfolk and hiding in fedhas deep water to kill everything on the level
21:18:08 <OG17> I don't see the connection
21:18:39 <Eronarn> you can use reaching to attack without being attacked back against many enemies in some obscure situations, this is bad but not worth nerfing reaching over
21:18:49 <Eronarn> or dropping the principle that it is bad to let you attack without being attacked back
21:18:57 <MarvinPA> i'm also confused but yes, conservation making it better to pick up potions when casting orefrig would be fine
21:20:06 <OG17> it's hard to call picking up potions "scummy" anyway
21:20:23 <monky> speaking of potions, I had an idea for vanilla mummy death curses
21:20:30 <Eronarn> 'remove them'
21:20:31 <OG17> what if you were refrigerating mummies!!??
21:20:47 <Eronarn> @??bog mummy
21:20:48 <Gretell> bog mummy (07M) | Speed: 8 (swim: 140%) | HD: 6 | Health: 31-47 | AC/EV: 1/9 | Damage: 25, 412(cold:6-17) | Flags: 07undead, amphibious, evil, spellcaster | Res: 06magic(40), 05fire, 02cold, 03poison | XP: 273 | Sp: throw frost (3d6), slow, corpse rot.
21:21:22 <monky> the idea is to prevent potion usage while fighting mummise, similarly to how current potion dropping works (to avoid rotting)
21:21:55 <monky> vanilla mummy curse can "curse" you, and while cursed, all potions have a chance of acting as decay (this wears off)
21:22:01 <monky> alternatively, just prevent potion usage while cursed
21:22:13 <MarvinPA> but would that only happen after killing the mummy?
21:22:18 <monky> yes
21:22:29 <MarvinPA> i guess that would matter in tomb and zigs and stuff then
21:22:31 <monky> yes
21:22:31 <MarvinPA> but not on early mummies
21:22:38 <OG17> does that keep the item-cursing aspect?
21:22:39 <monky> early mummy/ogre pair
21:22:57 <monky> OG17: could remove that too
21:23:10 <MarvinPA> early mummy/ogre pair you drag the ogre away from the mummy
21:23:13 <monky> right
21:23:15 <MarvinPA> and kill it first
21:23:36 <monky> early on it's easy enough to retreat and drop all potions anyway, but a stupid hassle
21:24:05 <monky> I'm far more interested in the tomb/zig scenario where you have to do hard work without potions or risk them all decaying
21:24:09 <Eronarn> does it really add anything to have mummies curse your stuff when you kill them
21:24:19 <OG17> I think I'm the only one that doesn't mind current mummy curses
21:24:24 <monky> Eronarn: I'm working on the assumption that it does, but I don't actually know
21:24:45 <Eronarn> monky: it is marginally interesting to have a monster that you don't want to kill but i think this is a pretty bad implementation of that
21:25:04 <Eronarn> and it kind of falls apart when you consider tomb
21:25:08 <Eronarn> which is a branch full of them
21:25:17 <monky> mummies in general?
21:25:20 <monky> I like giant spores better, myself
21:25:24 <OG17> making potion curse a status effect is neat though, you should put that on the wiki
21:25:27 <monky> are there any monsters with negative death effects?
21:25:36 <Eronarn> other than mummies you mean
21:25:36 <monky> I mean any others
21:25:42 <monky> other than mummies and spores
21:25:44 <Eronarn> holy beings
21:25:47 <monky> oh right
21:25:56 <Eronarn> but they're strong enough that you do want to kill them anyways
21:26:10 <MarvinPA> incidentally playing EE is making me sort of appreciate how liquefaction might be useful
21:26:21 <Eronarn> mummies are also slow so that is kind of different also
21:26:22 <MarvinPA> in that they have good single target conj but nothing useful multi-target
21:26:43 <MarvinPA> so slowing stuff down and giving yourself time to shoot more iron shots might be good (but also you'd just run out of mp)
21:26:53 <monky> another enemy you don't want to kill: silent spectre (for scumming purposes)
21:27:05 <OG17> imagine it'd be pretty nice with statue form
21:27:07 <Eronarn> yes but that's not as much of an issue now that they don't go down stairs
21:27:26 <MarvinPA> it makes you fumble in melee like shallow water, i think
21:27:36 <MarvinPA> maybe monster too, though, not sure
21:27:38 <MarvinPA> monsters*
21:27:42 <OG17> never mind then
21:27:56 <monky> Eronarn: you just have to luck out; I've gotten them on Crypt:5 (aliches) and for a tomb entry vault (the one with mummy priest and stuff)
21:27:58 <MarvinPA> and due mentioned maybe changing it just to affect move speed on monsters, not act speed
21:28:00 <Eronarn> haha look at OG17 thinking statue form might ever be useful
21:28:21 <OG17> that would make more sense in itself
21:29:40 <Eronarn> monky: fwiw i think if mummies are going to have a death curse it should a) not be cursed items because that's dumb b) not be rotted potions because that is also dumb
21:29:58 <Eronarn> but it is hard to think of any other effects that are interesting and meaningful
21:30:42 <Eronarn> actually you know what might work
21:30:47 <Eronarn> sickness... but for MP!
21:31:06 <MarvinPA> sickness for mp would actually be sort of cool
21:31:07 <monky> cursed items and rotted potions are dumb, yes. (maybe cursed status could also make it impossible to swap gear, to preserve that effect -- ha-ha)
21:31:28 <Eronarn> MarvinPA: yeah it would make tomb ridiculously brutal though
21:31:36 <MarvinPA> not necessarily as a death curse
21:31:41 <MarvinPA> just as a general thing that exists somewhere
21:31:43 <Eronarn> since presumably it's magical in origin and you can't quaff healing to get rid of it
21:31:54 <MarvinPA> you can quaff magic to get rid of it!
21:31:58 <Eronarn> yes!
21:32:07 <MarvinPA> desktop dungeons has it and you have to either quaff a mana potion or level up to heal it
21:32:11 <Eronarn> well, let's come up with a name for it
21:32:18 <Eronarn> how about Malaise
21:32:30 <MarvinPA> but that's sort of different because potions of magic are super rare in crawl
21:32:31 <Eronarn> as in, a spiritual malaise~
21:32:41 <OG17> it's pretty meaningless for anyone that's not a primary caster
21:33:15 <Eronarn> OG17: not necessarily bad
21:33:16 <monky> it's like reverse silence
21:33:17 <OG17> I mean yeah it's a concern for a guy storming zigs but not in general
21:33:26 <monky> wait no it's the same as silence
21:33:29 <Eronarn> monky: what it's not like silence at all
21:33:38 <MarvinPA> it's like silence except nothing like it
21:33:57 <monky> silent spectre fix: just make them really fast and give them a malaise-branded melee attack
21:34:05 <Eronarn> hahahah
21:34:24 <MarvinPA> that'd actually be way better
21:34:29 <MarvinPA> or something along those lines
21:34:33 <Eronarn> well, sickness has the other effect, statrot
21:34:46 <Eronarn> perhaps being malaised could have a second effect of some kind
21:34:46 <monky> it doesn't need to be perfect symmetry
21:34:49 <MarvinPA> mprot
21:34:55 <MarvinPA> (please no mprot)
21:34:57 <Eronarn> no, but it could have something
21:34:57 <monky> maprot
21:35:01 <monky> (please no maprot)
21:35:05 <Eronarn> spellrot
21:35:12 <Eronarn> like the thing that was discussed with locking out spells
21:36:11 <OG17> it doesn't need a second effect just because sickness has one
21:36:27 <Eronarn> no but we should talk to see whether we can come up with an interesting one
21:37:54 <OG17> also the whole thing is just as "scummy" as dropping potions, except that instead of that you push 5 until it wears off afterwards
21:38:00 <OG17> stairs etc
21:38:06 <monky> for silent spectres, by malaise, I meant malaise/antimagic
21:38:06 <OG17> again, outside of zigs
21:38:10 <Eronarn> oh here would be a really brutal one: no piety gain while malaised (you still gain the piety, but it gets queued up and becomes available after you are no longer malaised)
21:38:10 <monky> or just put ghost moths in crypt
21:38:15 <monky> (this would work)
21:38:31 <Eronarn> OG17: being able to leave the level is just part of crawl nothing we can do about that
21:38:40 <Eronarn> you can't do it flawlessly and it does carry some costs
21:39:05 <OG17> you can avoid having penalties that are entirely avoided by jumping levels and napping
21:39:48 <Eronarn> there's a place for those; sickness works pretty well in crawl really, particularly early before you have a ton of healing potions
21:40:11 <OG17> sickness lasts a lot longer than "no mp regen" could
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21:40:17 <OG17> and statdrain longer still
21:40:53 <Eronarn> oh, no, i am proposing sickness level duration here
21:41:10 <OG17> how is that supposed to work for a primary caster
21:41:24 <OG17> that just forces naps, if anything
21:42:13 <Eronarn> which, again, come with costs - and actually being hit with it in combat becomes quite interesting since you know it won't wear off for a long time
21:42:18 <OG17> actually as a tactical effect, mummies draining mp to 0 might be better than preventing regen
21:42:25 <due> I'm sure I've forgotten something
21:42:41 <due> but i think shedu are possibly done.
21:42:52 <OG17> it's not interesting when the obvious and only real option is to leave combat until you can cast again
21:42:53 <OG17> neat
21:43:20 <Eronarn> just like how when you're at low HP the only real option is to leave combat (which is what happens when people are at low HP)
21:43:29 <Eronarn> (except for the times it's not that simple)
21:43:54 <st_> Leda's liquifaction could be in the book of hinderance
21:43:57 <monky> Eronarn: borg
21:44:00 <OG17> running out of hp has slightly different results than running out of mp
21:44:49 <Eronarn> monky: borg should totally Sick you after you cast it
21:45:09 <monky> death's door
21:45:26 <Eronarn> actually heck
21:45:29 <Eronarn> what about making borg malaise you
21:45:36 <OG17> it'd be cute if death's door made you sick actually
21:45:56 <OG17> make people borg afterwards if still in danger
21:46:26 <OG17> then again I'm not sure what death's door's intended use really is
21:46:34 <Eronarn> save you from having to cast borg
21:47:45 <due> ??book of hinderance
21:47:46 <Henzell> book of hinderance[1/1]: Spells: confusing touch, slow, confuse, petrify.
21:47:53 <due> st_: good point, thanks.
21:48:05 <Eronarn> it'll make petrify being in there a lot less weird
21:49:03 <MarvinPA> also book costs should probably be tweaked
21:49:10 <MarvinPA> clouds is super cheap but has tornado
21:49:22 <monky> tornado shouldn't be in clouds
21:49:25 <monky> it's not a cloud spell is it?
21:49:41 <Eronarn> well it makes clouds
21:49:47 <Eronarn> not cloud clouds, but they're clouds the same
21:50:02 <MarvinPA> it makes sense in tempests (shatter doesn't)
21:50:04 <monky> I thought the clouds were just to convey the wind
21:50:17 <MarvinPA> ??tornado
21:50:18 <Henzell> tornado[1/4]: Awesome L9 air spell in trunk. Surrounds you with a radius 5 tornado which follows your movement, and lifts you into the air (flight). Deals huge damage over a few turns but decreases in power in enclosed spaces. Found in the book of the Sky (temporarily), book of Clouds, and book of the Tempests.
21:50:22 <monky> is book of tukima still crazy overpriced
21:50:28 <MarvinPA> also yes
21:51:01 <st_> I'd guess book price is done through rarity
21:51:13 <monky> why is tukima so rare, then
21:51:20 <Eronarn> it might be nice to look at what spells people are actually using
21:51:21 <st_> because it used to be ridic
21:51:27 <Eronarn> assign values to them
21:51:34 <Eronarn> and then look at how good each book ends up being
21:52:02 <Eronarn> that would give a good baseline for figuring out what stuff could be shuffled around or what costs could be changed
21:52:50 <monky> I hear tukima's is really good with big weapons, and I imagine not many people use projected noise, despite it being crazy
21:53:31 <OG17> you could figure out relative spell worth pretty decently without actually polling characters or whatever
21:54:40 <OG17> and yeah player use doesn't necessarily mirror actual usefulness
21:54:49 <OG17> directly
21:55:59 <OG17> due, what happens if you blow up a shedu?
21:56:17 <OG17> or is that prevented
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22:02:17 <OG17> also liquid spell seems to set "slow" status, but it's just movespeed?
22:02:54 <monky> brown slow
22:03:08 <OG17> colors generally indicate duration though
22:03:26 <OG17> I guess you have kenku flight bonus but "slow" and "ponderous" are pretty different effects
22:03:50 <OG17> I'd think you could get rid of its slow status and just have "liquid" cover both
22:04:14 <Eronarn> it would be nice to have a Liquid status effect for standing in water also
22:04:22 <Eronarn> or lava if that's your deal
22:05:09 <OG17> that'd be good too, for shallow at least
22:12:58 <due> OG17: Erm, it would.
22:13:01 <due> It wouldn't rather.
22:13:07 <due> What about whne monsters are casting the spell?
22:13:10 <due> I'll change it back to SlowM.
22:14:32 <Eronarn> due: well moving through liquid hampers your movement
22:14:49 <Eronarn> so yes that actually would make sense i think
22:15:10 <sorear> does shallow water hamper monster movement yet?
22:15:17 <OG17> no
22:15:43 <monky> is there a reason for this
22:16:02 <OG17> to annoy me
22:16:05 <Eronarn> tgw hasn't complained about it enough yet
22:16:14 <due> I'll change it back to SlowM, but I'm not removing the status light.
22:16:26 <OG17> I wasn't thinking of monsters using it, yeah
22:16:55 <due> "Liquid" is specifically for when *you* are casting liquefaction.
22:17:56 <OG17> would "Pond" be better than "SlowM" or is that too arcane?
22:18:26 <monky> pond as in ponderous?
22:18:30 <OG17> yeah
22:18:37 <OG17> if you need to ask I guess not
22:18:39 <monky> slowm is pretty arcane
22:18:47 <Eronarn> SloMo
22:19:07 <due> It's not ponderous.
22:19:16 <due> It's *like* ponderous.
22:19:38 <due> SlowM is not arcane. "slow movement". If oyu hit @ it spits out "Your movement is slowed by this liquefied ground."
22:20:07 <OG17> SlowM is fine in itself, I think
22:20:15 <Eronarn> it is not a good abbrev imo
22:20:28 <OG17> though maybe @ shouldn't reference the spell directly in case other stuff ends up using the status
22:20:55 <due> OG17: That's not an issue due to how @ and stuff works.
22:21:02 <OG17> oh, cool
22:21:05 <Eronarn> what about 'Hindered'
22:21:12 <sorear> Held ?
22:21:20 <Eronarn> held is for nets
22:21:41 <OG17> hindered sounds more like a net too
22:21:45 <due> Hindered is stupid.
22:22:02 <due> You are *slowed* because  the ground is *liquefied*..
22:22:07 <due> It is difficult to walk through.
22:22:26 <Eronarn> due is stupid >:( (really, i prefer just having it be Liquid, and then just colour it differently based on whether you're the caster or not)
22:22:27 <monky> so is ledas like haste for chei
22:23:07 <due> monky: I'm not entirely sure how it interacts with Chei.
22:23:09 <OG17> hindered's problem is that it suggests all actions are hindered, I think
22:23:38 <due> I've made up my mind so find someone else to pester and get them to chhange it. :|
22:23:45 <due> Now, shedu!
22:23:54 <Eronarn> now, silly hats
22:27:03 <OG17> chei already has a built-in slowing ability, and if the spell's refined to just slow monster movement it'd be less of a chei concern anyway
22:27:47 <OG17> you'd still want it for casting with the god but that's fine I think
22:30:43 <MarvinPA> presumably you wouldn't gain as much piety for killing stuff with it active
22:32:10 <OG17> currently yeah, don't know how movespeed would work
22:38:55 <Keskitalo> Nice antimagic ideas (malaise etc)
22:39:17 <Keskitalo> silent spectre should only silence its enemies
22:39:33 <Keskitalo> but different antimagic monsters would be great to have
22:40:07 <Keskitalo> also, mummy curses as status effects is a recurring idea and a great one in my opinion
22:40:19 <Keskitalo> Lost Labyrinth has a bunch of status effect curses
22:41:01 <Keskitalo> on an unrelated note, these sewer maps from co look awesome
22:48:36 <Keskitalo> also fantastic tile activity
23:10:04 <Gretell> clouded (L19 MuEE) ASSERT(mons_is_known_mimic(mons)) in 'showsymb.cc' at line 329 failed. (Vault:3)
23:10:25 <st_> boggart summon an ossurary portal mimic