00:06:00 -!- eith_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:08:15 !tell due e42b891 00:08:15 due: OK, I'll let due know. 00:09:28 03due * r6805c0a583f2 10/crawl-ref/source/ (12 files in 5 dirs): New monster: raven. 00:11:47 Zaba! 00:11:47 due: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 00:13:36 Okay, Jory needs to explode in blood when he dies. 00:18:39 @??vampire knight 00:18:39 vampire knight (10V) | Speed: 10 | HD: 11 | Health: 50-96 | AC/EV: 10/10 | Damage: 33, 1505(vampiric) | Flags: 07undead, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(88), 02cold, 03poison | XP: 1433 | Sp: vampire summon, paralyse, haste, invisibility, minor healing. 00:19:22 !messages 00:19:23 (1/1) due said (11m 7s ago): e42b891 00:19:49 why do they have healing, anyways 00:19:56 that doesn't seem a very vampire-y thing 00:20:10 because it annoys players 00:20:37 @??slient spectre 00:20:37 unknown monster: "slient spectre" 00:20:42 @??silent spectre 00:20:42 silent spectre (10p) | Speed: 10 | HD: 8 | Health: 29-59 | AC/EV: 5/15 | Damage: 15 | Flags: 07undead, evil, see invisible, lev | Res: 06magic(42), 12cold+++, 03poison | XP: 313. 00:20:49 Wtf why is the exp so high on this. 00:20:53 @??vampire knight 00:20:53 vampire knight (10V) | Speed: 10 | HD: 11 | Health: 50-96 | AC/EV: 10/10 | Damage: 33, 1505(vampiric) | Flags: 07undead, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(88), 02cold, 03poison | XP: 1433 | Sp: vampire summon, paralyse, haste, invisibility, minor healing. 00:20:56 @??vampire mage 00:20:56 vampire mage (06V) | Speed: 10 | HD: 8 | Health: 27-53 | AC/EV: 10/10 | Damage: 7, 1505(vampiric) | Flags: 07undead, evil, spellcaster, see invisible, fly | Res: 06magic(64), 02cold, 03poison | XP: 628 | Sp: b.draining (3d13), summon undead, invisibility, animate dead, teleport self. 00:21:01 @??shadow wraith 00:21:01 shadow wraith (06W) | Speed: 10 | HD: 10 | Health: 37-71 | AC/EV: 7/7 | Damage: 2013(drain) | Flags: 07undead, evil, see invisible, lev | Res: 06magic(106), 03poison | XP: 824. 00:21:11 @??sky beast 00:21:11 sky beast (11I) | Speed: 10 | HD: 5 | Health: 17-39 | AC/EV: 3/13 | Damage: 511(elec:5-6) | Flags: fly | Res: 06magic(20), 11elec+++, asphyx | Chunks: 06mutagenic | XP: 130. 00:21:28 sorear: paralysis annoys them too :D 00:23:22 Whoa wtf, ravens somehow ended up at 730 exp. 00:23:52 spells? speed? HP? HD? 00:24:03 HD 9, speed 20, probably. 00:24:39 ...why are ravens HD 9 00:25:05 ravens should be smaller than GIANT BATS 00:25:15 True. 00:26:14 due: i want swarms implemented - kind of like clouds, but of insects instead of gas. Or ravens instead of insects. 00:26:22 swarms of them, plucking at your eyes... 00:26:38 Mmmmeyeballs. 00:26:51 And yes, you're right, HD9 is way too high. Stuck in my late-game mentality. 00:27:40 There is a cloud of squealing ravens here. 00:27:52 They're loud, aren't they? 00:29:31 196 is now too low. I want 300-400. 00:30:18 other clouds along those lines that would be cool to have: spiders (pop out when you kill a demonic crawler), piranhas, bees (normal sized bees!), ants, butterflies 00:32:56 BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES are COMIIING! :D 00:35:13 Bolt of Bees 00:35:20 ...would actually be a pretty amazing summoning spell 00:35:41 fires a green-drac-style breath blast, and then the clouds buzz around noisily and randomly 00:35:47 CLOUD_BEES :) 00:36:38 fr: rename sky beast to 'cloud bee' 00:36:49 it's shockingly venomous! 00:41:26 @??bog mummy 00:41:26 unknown monster: "bog mummy" 00:41:31 due has been bad 00:41:38 due has not updated @?? 00:41:52 * greensnark censures due. 00:43:12 greensnark: yes give me time 00:43:14 greensnark: I am working on ravens 00:43:26 * greensnark caws menacingly at due. 00:44:05 I shall not do the N word, though 00:44:12 I never do the N word 00:44:31 ... what is the N word? I added ravens! After you asked fo rthem! 00:44:52 is it nevermore 00:45:07 oh 00:45:38 Someone has not been reading their Poe and their Pratchett :( 00:46:10 Conversdation in ##crawl-offtopic has made me permanently associate "n" word with... another racial epithet. 00:47:47 well as long as we only generate ravens in clouds we don't need it 00:47:56 collective droning 00:49:33 "Take thy beak from out my heart" <3 00:49:46 I'd forgotten most of the poem :P 00:50:15 For some reason after 20 years the only thing you remember, pretty much, is "Nevermore" 00:52:06 so should we get rid of beetles so we can put birds on B 00:52:38 and rename boring beetle to earthworm 00:53:02 just put birds on b 00:53:05 including kenku 00:54:10 NO. Boring beetle is the best name ever. 00:55:17 there was also an idea (an implementable? maybe even with a patch?) for making boulder beetles interesting, too 00:55:40 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2687 00:56:59 That's a cool idea 00:57:34 * due click. 00:59:51 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:00:39 That is awesome. 01:02:07 The only minor hitch, hardly worth mentioning, is that anyone who implements that will have to come into contact with the monster movement code. 01:02:33 And will presumably emerge looking like a lich that has been hit by a garbage truck 01:03:31 greensnark: Iknow :( 01:03:36 greensnark: I still don't understand it. 01:03:52 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 01:03:53 greensnark: But I have this brilliant idea that I'm going to be able to competently implement David's "resetting" idea for the ToS vault. 01:07:10 Okay meh, ran into a niiightmare. 01:07:27 03due * r562b78faf623 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: Fix ravens: reduce HP, HD, attacks. 01:08:51 now updating @?? 01:15:47 @??rave 01:15:47 unknown monster: "rave" 01:15:48 @??raven 01:15:49 raven (02b) | Speed: 20 | HD: 6 | Health: 25-41 | AC/EV: 1/10 | Damage: 8, 8 | Flags: sense invisible, fly | Res: 06magic(16) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 262. 01:15:54 @??bog mummy 01:15:54 bog mummy (07M) | Speed: 8 (swim: 140%) | HD: 6 | Health: 31-47 | AC/EV: 1/9 | Damage: 25, 412(cold:6-17) | Flags: 07undead, amphibious, evil, spellcaster | Res: 06magic(40), 05fire, 02cold, 03poison | XP: 273 | Sp: throw frost (3d6), slow, corpse rot. 01:19:52 from my little knowledge, I imagine the hardest part would be telling when boulder beetles move towards their targets, particularly for consecutive turns (and I imagine "each moved made in the same direction" includes wacky directions, such as not to encourage degenerate behaviour like approaching boulder beetles from odd directions so they go off in a cardinal/diagonal) 01:21:05 due: why do bog mummies swim so slowly? 01:21:54 if I enslave undead a bog mummy and take it to Gehenna to dry, what happens? 01:23:42 sorear: Because they're more like waders than swimmers. 01:27:34 :D! 01:27:52 enne, a non-Crawl-related friend just drew me a crab and a porcupine tile! 01:28:21 now your friend is Crawl-related! 01:28:47 due: <3 01:29:26 enne: And has said he can make more! 01:30:04 We have porcupines? 01:30:08 @??porcupine 01:30:08 unknown monster: "porcupine" 01:30:19 greensnark: We will, I've reserved an enum for them. 01:30:24 Hehe 01:33:30 could lindwurms be removed or merged with fire crabs? The new stuff is better than being bigger grounded fire drakes 01:34:57 Hm, firecrabs should be amphibious! 01:35:04 there's an oversight on my parrt. 01:35:27 due: firecrab + water = steam? 01:35:32 also why are fire crabs poison vulnerable 01:35:37 and/or not ice vulnerable 01:35:39 OG17: bugs 01:35:44 on t? 01:35:45 OG17: Oversights, mostly. 01:35:59 they're on t because i don't know, why are they on t 01:36:03 @??fire crab 01:36:04 fire crab (04t) | Speed: 11 | HD: 8 | Health: 37-67 | AC/EV: 9/6 | Damage: 1504(fire:8-15), 1504(fire:8-15) | Flags: !sil | Res: 06magic(42), 04fire+++ | Vul: 09poison | Chunks: clean/none/unknown | XP: 491 | Sp: flame blast (d12). 01:36:06 Eronarn: No space on 's'. 01:36:09 Cra[B]s and [B]eetles 01:36:10 Eronarn: "No room at the inn", etc. 01:36:39 there's space if you wanted it 01:36:46 also B makes sense too 01:37:01 OG17: fire crabs are arthropods 01:37:03 B is quite underused really 01:37:10 *all* arthropods in Crawl are Vul: poison 01:37:13 and nothing else 01:37:26 sorear: demonic crawler!!1 01:37:58 Eronarn: demonic crawlers are demons, they don't fall into any phylum of animals 01:38:30 as opposed to fire crabs 01:38:33 which totally do 01:38:40 why are they on s and why are hell hogs and hounds on h aaaaaa 01:38:47 monky: god I KNOW 01:38:49 it's SO AWFUL 01:38:52 "because". :p 01:39:01 demonic crawlers have always been on "3" 01:39:10 @??demonic crawler 01:39:10 demonic crawler (09s) | Speed: 9 | HD: 9 | Health: 34-65 | AC/EV: 10/6 | Damage: 13, 13, 13 | Flags: 05demonic, see invisible | Res: 06magic(72), 05fire, 02cold, 10elec++, 03poison | Chunks: clean/none/unknown | XP: 238. 01:39:11 no, they're s now 01:39:21 What idiot did that 01:39:22 I forgot when they moved, but they did 01:39:34 meanwhile, smoke demons aren't on # 01:39:37 despite being, uh 01:39:39 a cloud of smoke 01:39:42 sorear: they moved when they got corpses 01:39:44 also there's not a lot of reason for every bug/crab/etc to be handed a predetermined vulnerability set 01:39:44 I think 01:40:00 demons with corpses bugs me too 01:40:26 see also: hell hounds/hogs not only having corpses but being good eating 01:40:26 -!- by has joined ##crawl-dev 01:40:44 by! 01:40:51 hi 01:40:51 by: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 01:41:15 saw there's a new sprint map 01:41:22 it's not very good 01:41:49 how are things going? 01:42:42 we miss squarelos :( 01:42:43 side note, wrath moths aren't rP- and ghost moths are rP rC 01:42:46 Eronarn: oh? I didn't get far enough to tell yet 01:43:02 by: Someone's already won :) 01:43:08 two people 01:43:21 did the other one LRD through 01:43:31 no 01:43:44 oh, someone else won? 01:43:50 notthepope as acidrobin 01:43:51 !lg * won sprint map=~fedhas 01:43:51 2. AcidRobin the Destroyer (L13 DEIE), worshipper of Sif Muna, escaped with the Orb on 2010-12-27, with 295141 points after 6173 turns and 0:36:34. 01:43:55 Eronarn: funny if people remember me for square LOS 01:44:01 !lg * won sprint map=~fedhas -log 01:44:01 2. AcidRobin, XL13 DEIE, T:6173: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/sprint/AcidRobin/morgue-AcidRobin-20101227-034800.txt 01:44:21 by: well, when you left square LOS stopped being tested on CDO 01:44:24 by: its absence leaves a square hole in our hearts that a round peg cannot fill 01:47:19 greensnark: the log link for sprint seems to be incorrect, it is in /morgues/trunk instead 01:47:32 Ugh 01:47:48 !lg * sprint cdo 1 -log 01:47:48 1. syllogism, XL1 DECj, T:27: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/sprint/syllogism/morgue-syllogism-20100228-213204.txt 01:48:01 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:49:13 !lg * sprint cdo 1 -log 01:49:13 1. syllogism, XL1 DECj, T:27: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/syllogism/morgue-syllogism-20100228-213204.txt 01:49:23 !lg * won sprint map=~fedhas -log 01:49:23 2. AcidRobin, XL13 DEIE, T:6173: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/AcidRobin/morgue-AcidRobin-20101227-034800.txt 01:50:39 !lg * sprint cao 1 -log 01:50:39 1. test, XL1 HuFi, T:0: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/test/morgue-test-20100724-061029.txt 02:01:27 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 02:01:27 -!- paxed has quit [Changing host] 02:01:27 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 02:02:04 !lg * sprint map=~fedhas s=ktyp 02:02:05 678 games for * (map=~fedhas): 307x mon, 162x beam, 151x acid, 38x quitting, 11x leaving, 5x pois, 2x winning, 1x cloud, 1x disintegration 02:02:21 !lg * sprint map=~fedhas s=killer 02:02:21 678 games for * (map=~fedhas): 203x , 179x a green rat, 64x an oklob sapling, 40x an oklob sapling priest, 20x Agnes, 18x a bumblebee, 16x a spriggan druid, 14x an oklob sapling wizard, 14x a spriggan berserker, 14x a grey rat, 13x a spriggan, 11x a spriggan defender, 11x a giant ant, 11x a spriggan rider, 9x an oklob plant, 8x a burning bush, 6x a scorpion, 5x a killer bee, 3x a hill giant, 3x a ... 02:03:20 !lg . sprint map=~fedhas s=killer 02:03:21 18 games for by (map=~fedhas): 5x a green rat, 4x , 3x an oklob sapling, 2x a bumblebee, 1x a wandering mushroom, 1x a spriggan druid, 1x an oklob sapling wizard, 1x an oklob sapling priest 02:03:41 it felt like oklob saplings would be higher in that list 02:04:44 hi rob! 02:05:02 hey due 02:06:58 mmhm, haste nerf and improved heavy armour 02:07:07 how'd those work out? 02:08:57 ??haste nerf 02:08:57 I don't have a page labeled haste_nerf in my learndb. 02:09:00 ??haste 02:09:00 haste[1/2]: Halves delay of all actions. Yes, it stacks with Swiftness, boots of running, weapons of speed, etc.. Level 6 Ench spell, Okawaru invocation, wand of hasting, or the effect of a potion of speed. Also one of the effects of berserking. Being hasted raises your hunger rate by 5. Considered by many to be the best spell in the game. 02:09:04 they both seem to work fairly well to me 02:09:10 great 02:09:15 ??haste[2] 02:09:15 haste[2/2]: Nerfed in 0.8 trunk, only reduces delay by 1/3. Many late-game monsters' base speeds have been reduced to compensate for this. Berserk speed is unaffected. 02:09:22 speeds of some monsters were tweaked a little strangely though 02:09:32 example: 02:09:35 @??golden dragon 02:09:35 golden dragon (08D) | Speed: 9 | HD: 18 | Health: 86-127 | AC/EV: 15/7 | Damage: 40, 20, 20 | Flags: sense invisible, fly, !sil | Res: 06magic(192), 05fire, 02cold, 10elec++, 03poison | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 4031 | Sp: b.fire (3d27), b.cold (3d27), poisonous cloud (3d11). 02:09:38 now speed 9 02:10:38 that might accurately reflect how little of a threat they were to hasted characters before... 02:12:21 possibly, but why were they slowed whereas shadow dragons, for instance, were not? 02:12:36 just bothers me slightly, not a big deal or anything 02:13:18 agree that it feels strange, I'd assume these changes will be tweaked at some point 02:13:31 the haste nerf did have the effect of making gloorx much more dangerous though 02:13:36 since he is still speed 20 02:16:53 Okay, so porcupines need to replace one of the infuriating rat sets. 02:16:54 Which one? 02:17:08 Grey or green? 02:17:25 @?? gray rat 02:17:25 unknown monster: "gray rat" 02:17:28 @?? grey rat 02:17:28 grey rat (15r) | Speed: 12 | HD: 1 | Health: 3-9 | AC/EV: 2/12 | Damage: 5 | Res: 06magic(4) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 4. 02:17:31 @?? green rat 02:17:31 green rat (09r) | Speed: 10 | HD: 2 | Health: 6-16 | AC/EV: 5/11 | Damage: 10 | Res: 06magic(8) | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 13. 02:17:41 I'm sick of rat bands. :| 02:18:32 @??jackal 02:18:33 jackal (07h) | Speed: 14 | HD: 1 | Health: 3-8 | AC/EV: 2/12 | Damage: 3 | Res: 06magic(1) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 1. 02:18:43 I'd replace grey rats, they feel too much like jackals 02:18:50 elliptic: That's my intent, I think. 02:19:15 03due * r70b18cf2bb76 10/crawl-ref/ (6 files in 4 dirs): New tiles: porcupine, fire crab. (Malwyn) 02:19:23 Grey rats are used in sewer vaults, so what I think I'll do is just disable grey rat bands and drop generation of grey rats (replace with porcupines). 02:19:56 how about spammals? 02:20:17 Hm. 02:20:21 ??summon small mammals 02:20:21 summon small mammals[1/1]: Summons one or two rats, giant bats, quokkas or grey rats. Monsters that cast this spell can additionally summon green and orange rats. 02:20:24 oh, spammals is a good point 02:20:29 It's fine, though. 02:20:39 I'm not goign to delete grey rats--just stop their generation. 02:22:00 off for breakfast now, have fun! 02:22:10 Bye! 02:22:25 -!- by has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:26:49 Oh, is the compile-time check for spells gone? yay. 02:28:24 -!- casmith789 has joined ##crawl-dev 02:32:22 // This list must match the enchant_names array in monster.cc or Crawl 02:32:26 // will CRASH, we kid you not. 02:32:38 <3 that message. 02:42:22 Hm, need spells for Jory. 02:42:27 greensnark, provide! 02:45:43 greensnark: Aroundd? I have a few "where should I look to do " questions for you... egarding vault code :) 02:51:35 Miaow 02:51:51 Have to go out in 10, so quick questions only :) 02:53:36 greensnark: Where are monsters placed when a vault is written? ie, parsed from the map_def/map_lines and created. i can't remember. :( 02:53:54 If in doubt, look at dungeon.cc :) 02:54:13 I havebeen for the past few millenia. :( 02:54:42 Will keep looking. 02:54:47 Will email you/enne if neceessary! 02:55:11 dgn_place_monster 02:55:12 (David has come up with an idea of "saving" monsters (specifically marked as "summoned"). After a certain amount of turns the map "resets" and replaces the same summoned monsters again.) 02:55:15 Sorry, got disconnected 02:55:23 That's fine! 02:56:34 Respawning monsters sounds like a job for a marker 02:56:34 I'm planning on storing the: a) generate monster's serial number (yay for serial numbers!), the location they generated, and the spec they were generated out of (probably the mgen_data). 02:57:25 I ... suppose I could do it in Lua. 02:59:10 : dgn.respawning_monster("X", "Ijyb") 02:59:20 Make that set up a KMONS and a marker on the same square 02:59:42 Hm. 02:59:43 I think there's a trigger for monster death, right 02:59:51 Yeah, there is. 03:00:06 Need to convert it to use the monster's serial number. 03:00:23 Or if this is more like a monster spawner that periodically spawns monsters, you don't need to check for the death 03:00:28 It's not 03:00:50 The idea is, the monsters in the "vault" are summoned. Every X turns they are reset. Literally, abjured, and new ones are summoned in the exact places they were originally spawned. 03:00:57 Until the vampire boss dies. 03:01:15 Ah 03:01:43 Which is why I thought storing monster_type, coord_def where_placed and generated monster's serial number would be easier than ... a lot of Lua black magic. 03:01:59 It deliberately won't work with customised monsters. But that's something peoeple get t olive with. :) 03:02:09 Isn't the serial number enough to track the monster? 03:02:10 (Olives: things that are also not eyeballs!) 03:02:37 Keep track of all the serial numbers of the special monsters, then whenever the timer fires, retrieve the monsters and reset them 03:02:38 greensnark: The serial number is to track the placed monster for dismissal if still alive; the coord_def and the monster_type are for regenerating a "new" version of it. 03:02:56 Yup, that! 03:03:10 But it also needs to cope with the possibility of that monster being dead, so. Hm. 03:03:12 monster_type is insufficient, you have to keep the full spec :P 03:03:36 Just add a function that takes a serial number and returns the monster if found or nothing if not 03:04:25 Ok, back later 03:04:34 What if I polymorph the mob into a jelly and there are now 5 of it? 03:04:52 sorear: They're marked as summoned anyway so meh. 03:05:03 Well, no_exp_gain. 03:05:23 greensnark: Why do I need the full spec? 03:17:16 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 03:18:57 hi dpeg 03:19:10 Hi! 03:33:25 dpeg: I'm implementing a new spell ;) 03:33:45 dpeg: "Leda's Liquefaction". 03:34:45 What does it do? 03:35:21 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:35:42 Apparnetly it's been requested before. 03:36:00 Anyway, it jiggles the earth until the ground is liquefacted and you sink and get stuck. 03:37:30 aha, like a quicksand spell 03:37:50 yes 03:38:17 For Earth? 03:38:38 Yup. 03:39:14 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 03:39:46 I am currently attempting to do your resetting monsters thing for that vault. 03:40:37 03galehar * r64a1df253904 10/crawl-ref/source/tilesdl.cc: Restore minimap after redoing layout. 03:41:27 FR: monster sludge elves 03:42:02 <3 03:42:21 sorear: How best do I store a triplet of information in a vector, to marshall and unmarshall? 03:45:42 Oh. 03:45:47 I thought we already had monster serial numbers. :| 03:46:09 * due prods kilobyte. 03:46:51 due: we do... as a regular field of them onster structure 03:47:10 due: do you want something for monsters, grid, etc...? 03:47:23 (not sure where that vector is supposed to be) 03:47:58 Ahh. 03:48:07 "mid". 03:48:10 Couldn't find the name of it. 03:48:28 kilobyte: I need to store monster_type, mid and coord_def for monsters placed for a single vault. :) 03:49:34 not entirely sure what you want to get 03:50:18 Whenever dgn_place_monster is called, pop a triplet of where it was placed, what monster type it placed, and the monter's id IF the vault placement has a track monster placement flag. 03:50:56 That way I can write a "restore state" function that finds all still-alive monsters in the placement, nuke them, and re-place monster_type at coord_def, then store that information. 03:52:19 and wait before restoring them, right? 03:52:24 Of course! 03:52:50 I might be dense but I still don't catch what's the purpose... the monsters are going to disappear, right? 03:52:50 It's for the Tower of Silence vault; every couple hundred turns Jory "recreates" the tower. 03:52:54 Yup. 03:53:07 It's dpeg's idea :) 03:53:15 I'm probably not describing it properly. 03:53:26 it might be done more easily in lua, I guess 03:53:33 Not really. 03:53:43 you clear all the monsters with a given tag, then place them again 03:53:53 Hm. 03:54:22 greensnark suggested the same thing but it would involve placing markers at all of the locations that a monster was placed. 03:55:25 you may want to record the coords in a table 03:55:26 I don't know, it just seems like a lot of work in Lua, whereas not quite as much to do it in C++. 03:55:46 kilobyte: Still need to find the coords... 03:55:50 Maybe I'm tired. 03:56:11 what if a given monster has been killed? 03:56:38 It's mid is discarded and a new, same type of monster is placed at the position it originally was placed at. 03:56:51 no_exp flag :) 03:59:05 I don't see how referencing them by id rather than some other flag or prop would be useful... the ids are good if you want to ascertain a monster's identity even if it gets abyssed, moves past the stairs, etc 03:59:18 Hm. 03:59:27 That's very true. 03:59:54 Okay ,going to play board games :) Bye! 03:59:56 what you seem to want is just the ability to mark a monster so it can be removed 04:00:09 oh well, bye... 04:00:32 Yes, you're right 04:00:38 mid is totally unnecessary now that I think about it further. 04:00:40 but it'd be good to know how the monsters are placed initially, then I'd be able to think about it 04:00:54 They're intiially placed by the MONS:, etc, flags. 04:01:02 dgn_place_monster in dungeon.cc 04:01:08 and... _vault_grid, I think. 04:02:37 do they have anything worth saving, or are exchangeable? I mean, are they identified fully by just their type ("a vampire mage")? 04:03:49 Fully identified by type, I think there's no point saving anything else. If we want that complexity later, it could be extended. 04:13:06 kilobyte: Let me know if you have any thoughts; actually off to board games now. 04:31:28 Tobogganing with the kids. 04:34:18 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:56:00 how come the "you made n melee attacks" and the step counter was removed from logs? 04:56:14 I like the attack counter at least 04:58:29 st_: that was meant for one-time gathering of data (across a number of real games) 04:58:43 it might indeed make an interesting piece of trivia 04:59:22 letting people tell apart hybrids from spellcasters with pumped fighting, etc 05:01:23 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:02:12 ohoh.. a corrupted temple? with only 3 non-lugonu gods 05:02:12 Napkin: You have 5 messages. Use !messages to read them. 05:02:38 will the other altars be spread throughout the dungeon? 05:03:19 should all be on D:2-9 05:03:37 ok, thanks 05:03:50 !tell galehar beep me when you're back 05:03:51 Napkin: OK, I'll let galehar know. 05:21:14 ??charred statue 05:21:14 I don't have a page labeled charred_statue in my learndb. 05:21:18 grrr.. 05:21:57 "It is very resistant to electricity; and resistant to poison, fire and cold." wtf near a altar of vehumet 05:22:04 unbelievable 05:22:32 well, screw this and die.. what a waste 05:23:00 IIRC it has like 12 hp 05:23:23 and threw a puff of flame :-O 05:23:46 @??orc wizard 05:23:47 orc wizard (06o) | Speed: 10 | HD: 3 | Health: 9-21 | AC/EV: 1/12 | Damage: 5 | Flags: spellcaster | Res: 06magic(20) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 35 | Sp: magic dart (3d4), slow, haste, blink / throw flame (3d5), confuse, invisibility, magic dart (3d4) / throw frost (3d5), cantrip, haste, throw flame (3d5), magic dart (3d4), invisibility. 05:24:27 so here you got a thoroughly more dangerous monster that is also mobile 05:24:42 but indeed, I was scared when I saw one too 05:25:45 well, sorry for the fuss then 05:26:20 but that's kinda like the first statue ever that not scaringly strong 05:26:21 no, why? You raised a good point: people have learned that statues are big bad and scary. 05:26:29 yeah 05:27:16 Call them statuettes if they're supposed to be mostly harmless :P 05:27:41 a charred statuette labeled "Made in China" 05:28:00 heh 05:29:15 <3 05:46:27 -!- paxed has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:50:22 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 05:50:22 -!- paxed has quit [Changing host] 05:50:22 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 06:10:29 -!- monky has quit [Quit: hello] 06:20:10 I return 06:29:54 kilobyte: I've come up with a way to do it in Lua--in my head. 06:30:27 Nowhere near as clean, and will a few more wrapper functions, but not too bad. 06:35:54 I heard data degrades easily if it is stored in head 06:36:24 Especially if the head is severed 06:36:34 I've noticed this often 06:36:36 :p 06:36:41 * due goes off to read about Septuagint Greek. 06:41:46 -!- cw_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:06:48 greensnark, damn, the removal of primary vaults really has messy consequences. 07:08:22 greensnark, occasional messiness of staircases on D:1 is just the tip of the iceberg. _builder_basic sometimes throws out spotty levels, and the entry vault sometimes makes some regions of the level disconnected (reachable through other down staircases, though) 07:08:39 greensnark, some large maps (most notably, the church Crypt:5 vault) have ridiculously high veto rate 07:09:04 and thus almost never end up on final levels, despite being selected for generation with their normal probability 07:17:37 What was the distinction between primary and secondary vaults? 07:18:07 primary vaults are placed before the level is built, and the level is subsequently built using a rather specific builder 07:19:15 ah, I see 07:19:23 Zaba: you are trying to get rid of that approach? 07:19:34 For larg vaults it might not be such a bad idea... 07:19:41 the current code in master doesn't use that approach, and so it is problematic :P 07:20:27 dpeg, the problem is that the distinction between vaults for which it might be a good idea and those that are better off placed on top of an existing level is rather arbitrary... 07:21:03 Zaba: oh, I absolutely agree with that 07:21:16 You refer to floating vaults? 07:21:29 floating vaults, yes, and other non-encompass vaults that have an ORIENT line. 07:22:30 -!- lorimer has quit [*.net *.split] 07:23:32 greensnark: would it be possible to make a distinction between ORIENT and floating? 07:24:12 dpeg, for example, take Crypt:5 maps... 07:24:50 david_glass_crypt is a floating vault, church_of_pain_bobbens is a floating vault. The former is perfectly adequately placed as a secondary vault, but the latter isn't really. 07:25:51 well, it can be placed, but it will most likely create disconnected zones on the level and what not, and it will be vetoed 07:26:03 Zaba: yes, I understand and I agree. 07:26:19 The huge map should be primary, the small one secondary. 07:26:26 We can achieve that somehow? 07:27:01 at the same time, bringing back the whole primary vault thing doesn't feel like the best solution... 07:27:15 -!- lorimer has joined ##crawl-dev 07:28:24 greensnark: what do you say? 07:28:28 we need to pester greensnark into "fixing it somehow" 07:28:32 We know you're here :) 07:28:32 that is the only solution that I see ;P 07:29:45 Zaba: TAGS: primary 07:29:48 Zaba: my previous question whether ORIENT:foo should be indepenent of FLOATING, so that small oriented vaults are seconary. But I see that the new plan is to remove all primary-ness. 07:29:50 Get to it 07:30:02 * greensnark is enjoying a life of retirement 07:30:29 * dpeg hands Zaba a clay tablet with "TAGS: primary" on it. 07:30:34 greensnark, yeah, but then half branch endings are built as seconday vaults, and the other half as primary, that's kind of ugly. 07:30:49 why do I always, *always* miss the r from seconday 07:30:56 secondary, even 07:31:56 :) 07:43:22 greensnark, I shall revert the stuff for now, at least... 07:43:56 such a game-breaking approach to removing primary vaults is clearly not right :P 07:46:37 03zaba * rbb43867e3787 10/crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: Revert "Merge _build_secondary_vault and _build_vault_impl into _build_vault." 07:46:45 03zaba * rdeb340c83f9f 10/crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: Revert "Turn primary vaults into secondary vaults." 07:49:33 greensnark, okay, that's at least no longer broken, so I don't have to hurry to fix it :P 07:50:30 skeletal cat (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3063) by Denzi 07:54:27 greensnark, I would like to unmess stair placement somehow, but I don't know how to. 08:01:40 03j-p-e-g * rac035c03f4d7 10/crawl-ref/source/ (40 files in 9 dirs): Add (preliminary tiles) for some of the commands. 08:15:03 Zaba: Sorry, no time to discuss vaults right now 08:15:15 Let's re-evaluate later 08:15:41 Another Shedu tile. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3064) by co 08:16:19 okay 08:25:04 ouch - a Dragon in D11 :-O 08:28:02 03j-p-e-g * r81d9087f1ef5 10/crawl-ref/source/ (3 files in 3 dirs): Add Denzi's cat lich tile. 08:30:46 Five new sewer vaults. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3065) by co 08:31:58 Zaba: I've been using zsh lately 08:33:04 Napkin: mmm low-EVP armour :p 08:35:02 I stand no chance ;) some vault with a dragon 08:35:18 pity i didn't know it.. now he will cruise the whole level, probably 08:35:22 *it 08:35:49 @whereis chojin 08:35:49 Chojin the Pandemonic (L24 DSCK), a worshipper of Makhleb, dead on Vault:8 on 2010-12-25 after 152881 turns. 08:36:11 hm 08:36:13 nah, that one's dead - back to "Napkin" ;) 08:36:25 anyways, off home o/ 08:43:52 -!- cw_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:11:46 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 09:29:14 -!- psyshvl has joined ##crawl-dev 09:30:16 -!- blackpenguin has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:31:07 -!- blackpenguin has joined ##crawl-dev 09:50:41 -!- psyshvl has quit [Quit: stuff] 10:19:19 AdeonTwo (L14 MuFi) (D:13) 10:19:51 AdeonTwo (L14 MuFi) (D:13) 10:21:01 hmm 10:21:24 Compiler warning in viewgeom.cc (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3066) by vonbrand 10:43:50 Napkin: you've been at work? 10:44:04 yes sir 10:44:17 wow, poor Nappy 10:44:19 but continued from at home 10:44:33 today I gave in and voted for this silly roguelike poll 10:44:36 well, poor Nappy took all his holidays during the summer - and it was worth it ;) 10:44:42 hehe 10:44:53 i checked today - tome had 204, dcss had 202 10:44:59 close call :D 10:45:23 yes, I saw --> that made me promptly vote myself 10:45:59 good boy :D 10:46:10 even jpeg did it :) 10:46:33 otherwise _we_ would have blamed you two for winning second place ;D 10:47:24 what poll is that? 10:48:33 Zaba: https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=46 10:49:00 It is clearly a matter of life and death. In particularly since nobody ever played TOME. 10:55:56 I did! 10:56:09 where's the poll 10:56:16 oh 10:56:40 so many roguelikes 10:57:16 dcss at 205 now :P 11:06:42 Non-satiated vampires waste a turn when trying to use sublimation (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3067) by MarvintheParanoidAndroid 11:16:43 AdeonTwo (L16 MuFi) (Vault:1) 11:16:54 AdeonTwo (L16 MuFi) (Vault:1) 11:17:58 AdeonTwo (L16 MuFi) (Vault:1) 11:18:34 hmm.. what's happening to AdeonTwo's game? 11:18:55 it explodes whenever I try to view map 11:20:06 AdeonTwo (L16 MuFi) (Vault:1) 11:23:48 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 11:31:00 hm. 11:32:30 -!- eith_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:40:39 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:42:20 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 11:42:20 -!- paxed has quit [Changing host] 11:42:20 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 11:46:13 03j-p-e-g * re837e7eadd85 10/crawl-ref/source/ (5 files in 2 dirs): Add descriptions for common commands. 11:46:16 03j-p-e-g * rb3160a6f801e 10/crawl-ref/source/ (database.cc describe.cc describe.h): Don't include command description in console versions' desc db. 11:46:18 03j-p-e-g * r451f7771a472 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-mon/kraken/kraken_zombie_head.png: Add a zombified kraken head tile. 11:46:20 03j-p-e-g * rdc6fc4c72d7c 10/crawl-ref/source/ (5 files in 4 dirs): Add Curio's zombie hound and toad tiles. 11:46:21 03j-p-e-g * rbe4ade1407f4 10/crawl-ref/source/ (3 files in 3 dirs): Add preliminary tile for the Malign Gateway spell. 11:51:48 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:02:46 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:03:52 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 12:03:52 -!- paxed has quit [Changing host] 12:03:52 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 12:04:41 03zaba * r48b60d18934d 10/crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: Use map_masked in _fixup_stone_stairs instead of checking env.level_map_mask directly. 12:04:53 03zaba * r87d5b9d76bcb 10/crawl-ref/source/ (5 files in 2 dirs): Correct some whitespace errors using checkwhite. 12:18:43 -!- lorimer has quit [*.net *.split] 12:20:35 -!- paxed has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:24:21 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 12:24:21 -!- paxed has quit [Changing host] 12:24:21 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 12:26:46 -!- psyshvl has joined ##crawl-dev 12:30:30 -!- casmith789 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:44:06 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:45:53 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 12:45:53 -!- paxed has quit [Changing host] 12:45:53 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 12:54:22 MarvinPA (L14 VpNe) (D:14) 12:54:28 ow 12:55:02 !lm . -log 12:55:03 10194. MarvinPA, XL14 VpNe, T:42011 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/MarvinPA/crash-MarvinPA-20101227-185422.txt 12:56:56 -!- lorimer has joined ##crawl-dev 12:57:22 MarvinPA (L14 VpNe) (D:14) 12:57:43 so it crashes when a trap mimic chases me over a certain square 12:59:06 MarvinPA (L14 VpNe) (D:14) 13:02:20 Crash stepping away from a trap mimic (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3068) by MarvintheParanoidAndroid 13:05:57 hm.. 13:09:52 MarvinPA, I don't seem to be able to reproduce it so easily.. 13:10:02 really? 13:10:12 it consistently crashes for me when i step down-left 13:10:51 could it be somehow to do with my settings? 13:10:55 ah, got it to crash, too 13:11:17 the issue is that mons_is_known_mimic is called on a null pointer 13:11:45 in the ASSERT 13:12:54 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:14:21 damn, that's messed up 13:14:32 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 13:14:32 -!- paxed has quit [Changing host] 13:14:32 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 13:15:05 there's no monster at that cell, but for some reason it gets called with SH_MONSTER 13:16:06 MarvinPA, here, it crashes in 'screenshot', though 13:16:10 when doing the game dump 13:16:26 anyway, I have to sleep now, I hope somebody else will look into that bug. 13:16:53 hm okay, thanks for having a look at it anyway :) 13:18:07 AdeonTwo (L18 MuFi) (Vault:1) 13:31:22 ??hell hound 13:31:23 hell hound[1/1]: woof woof, bark! Oh, and fire breath also, swoosh! If you see them in the midgame, it's probably a sign of Azrael. 14:14:46 Napkin: did you see the options who volunteer for execution? 14:16:12 hehe, DCSS and TOME tied at 207 votes right now... awesome :) 14:16:22 sorry, forgot 14:16:24 will check tomorrow 14:16:27 -!- Unrodney has joined ##crawl-dev 14:16:40 !asciidreams_vote 14:16:41 bhaak: ToME 4.0.0, 207, Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup, 207, Dwarf Fortress, 121, DoomRL, 73, Rogue Survivor, 46, Angband, 35, UnNetHack, 29, Goblin Camp, 28, POWDER, 27, Brogue, 26 14:16:41 Unrodney: we can see through your mascerade 14:16:54 Anyone here played Brogue? 14:17:16 if all the double votes get cleared, both tome and dcss will fall to 100 :) 14:17:28 Sure about that? 14:17:38 I tried it on windows, it looks nice, although the font is gruesome 14:17:43 * dpeg is not guilty of double voting. 14:17:49 I tried brogue 14:18:04 sorear: tell us! 14:18:18 I think it falls under the "anybody who writes a poll loop for keyboard input should be banished to a desert island" category 14:18:35 * bhaak didn't find a way to save in brogue 14:19:58 I was asking because I've seen Brogue praised a lot in several places. 14:21:29 dpeg: I didn't play it long enough to really review it, but I noticed some interestng things like that is has shallow water, knee-deep water, deep water. when swimming in deep water, some of your items might get lost in the water and drift away from you. 14:23:45 sorear: aha 14:26:21 it gets bonus points for visuals and autoexplore, but has a lot of issues. It's the kind of roguelike you'll, at most, finish once and move on 14:29:10 "A traditional 26-level crawl to the Amulet of Yendor. Development focus was on a smooth learning curve with strategic depth and intuitive/beautiful appearance within the strictures of ASCII/Unicode display. " 14:30:14 plus points for "intuitive/beautiful appearance" but nothing else that would motivate me to finish it 14:30:50 does it still do that thing where you can move diagonally but not around corners? 14:30:59 probably 14:31:04 yes 14:32:40 Where do I go to vote for Crawl? I haven't voted yet. 14:33:10 rax: http://roguelikedeveloper.blogspot.com/ 14:34:58 rax: Hi! 14:35:04 Nice to see you :) 14:36:11 Hi! :) 14:36:51 I have been playing roguelikes recently, though mostly Pokemon Mystery Dungeon. I am glad to see Crawl still doing awesome! I am sorry I have not been around. 14:36:51 rax: how is life far away from the big appleß 14:37:19 rax: don't sweat it. We keep going on, and when you plunge in after a hiatus of some years, a new, cool version will wait for you :) 14:37:58 dpeg: Life is good! I am working full time and grad schooling full time, so aside from this vacation between semesters I do not do much other than work. 14:38:20 -!- jpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 14:38:47 rax: grad school = phd? 14:39:07 Yes, I have an MA in English and am now getting a PhD in Gender Studies. 14:40:10 ...which will render me more and more unemployable with every degree! 14:40:15 :) 14:40:26 gender you more and more unployable 14:40:34 note to self: steal time machine from rax. (how else can you do two things full-time?) 14:40:48 paxed: women are better at this 14:41:13 paxed: Well, the job's only 32 hours a week, and the academic program is 30-50 hours per week, so it's no more work than working for a startup. 14:41:20 I know mothers who raised two children on their own while doing a phd 14:41:51 rax: the job is teaching? 14:42:04 No, the job is working for a tech company doing support and some light programming. 14:42:18 ah, I see, nothing at school 14:42:19 I guess I am also teaching. SO that's another ten hours a week --- just TAing, not running my own class yet. 14:42:29 So it's like a startup and a hobby. ;) 14:42:33 sounds like it 14:43:03 rax: and i thought TAing would take more time than Your Own Class... considering TAs get all the shit stuff to do... ;) 14:43:11 does it pay as much as a startup and a hobby? ;-) 14:43:51 paxed: It's way less stressful. And I have a fairly easy gig. 14:44:18 paxed: yes, I also found TA to be more work and less glory than giving lectures. 14:44:21 bhaak: It does not pay as well as moving up the ladder in the job would have, but I am comfortably paying down my mortgage and able to travel. 14:46:39 rax: cool :) 14:47:58 Crash when attempting to move towards a Lava Snake? (Windows Tiles) (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3069) by Twilight 14:58:02 Fire Crab tile (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3070) by coolio 15:08:05 Rat zombie tile candidate (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3071) by Curio 15:10:47 Atomjack (L16 TrMo) (D:1 (ZotDef)) 15:12:16 Atomjack lives/ 15:14:14 -!- monky has joined ##crawl-dev 15:14:49 sorear: He wrote ZotDef :) 15:15:47 Aha, so he knows all the secret codes! 15:16:42 up up down down left right left right B A 15:22:37 I'm more thinking of 15:22:50 !lg Atomjack won turn<35000 15:22:51 1. Atomjack the Convoker (L18 DESu), worshipper of Vehumet, escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2007-03-16, with 507506 points after 21070 turns and 6:17:09. 15:23:02 he made us nerf summoners, then vanished 15:23:06 yes, that was insane 15:23:30 I don't think he ever really vanished... he was part of the second generation devteam (when Linley handed over) 15:23:55 didn't chapayev write zotdef? 15:24:09 the first one 15:24:14 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 15:24:15 oh the update 15:24:27 hey 15:24:27 galehar: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 15:24:31 !messages 15:24:32 then nothing happened, and Mark came out of nowhere with ZotDef Mk II 15:24:33 (1/1) Napkin said (10h 20m 42s ago): beep me when you're back 15:24:34 galehar: Hi! 15:25:01 napkin:back 15:25:06 hi dpeg 15:25:53 did you look at my armoured spellcasting spreadsheet? 15:27:10 -!- psyshvl has quit [Quit: stuff] 15:31:47 yes! 15:31:52 well, not at the spreadsheet 15:32:03 galehar: the proposal is a bit different from what we discussed over here? 15:32:10 yes it is 15:32:33 the most important aspect is to scale the armour penalty with the spell level 15:33:21 galehar: I am not sure if that is desired. 15:33:24 I'll put some tables directly on the wiki. I expected that people would be too lazy to download and open a file :) 15:33:38 lazy lazy... I cannot open excel files easily :) 15:33:49 it's openoffice 15:33:59 It is one approach, but another one would be to nerf spell success dependent on AEVP but independent of spell level 15:34:12 openoffice does not run here ... don't ask 15:34:32 maybe I'll put it on google docs 15:34:59 the spell armour penalty already depends on AEVP 15:35:01 galehar: fwiw i don't think scaling the penalty with spell level is a good idea - that is effectively what we do already, due to the mathematics involved 15:35:12 btw, one thing we should keep in mind wrt recent armour boosts: we are free to nerf CPM individually 15:36:18 a penalty that applies regardless of the level of the spell means that instead of the penalty being 'you cannot cast as high level spells', it is 'you cannot cast any spells as reliably' 15:36:22 Eronarn: no we don't. You can more easily overcome the armour penalty with high magic skills. I'm trying to make the armour penalty (and the armour skill) more significant/ 15:37:13 Eronarn: exactly. And I'd like heavy armoured casters to be able to cast only low level spells. 15:37:34 and medium level spells only with high armour skill 15:37:46 galehar: yes we do: it's a number which is rolled against multiple times, and a flat modifier against that number. the penalty is constant, sure, but the impact of that penalty matters very little once you're already able to cast the spell at very high % success 15:38:56 I think galehar's proposal covers that. 15:41:10 i disagree with the premise that wear heavy armour = only cast low level spells; it's more interesting to not directly apply a penalty, but to make all spells (even easy ones like Blink) less reliable 15:42:02 especially given how frontloaded magic is in crawl; there's a large number of very good low level spells 15:43:37 Well, we are free to add an additional and independent d(base-EVP)/30 or so change of miscasting the spell due to armour. 15:43:43 galehar: still with usß 15:44:34 yes 15:45:16 I don't like making all castings unreliable in heavy armour. Also, it will be hard to explain on the interface. 15:46:01 dpeg: i'd rather see the independent penalty be what scales with armour skill - that way, raising armour skill is what makes your casting more reliable in tense situations (and raising armour will always be worthwhile, whereas it won't be if you can already cast beyond the degree a penalty like the normal one incurs) 15:47:34 well, Armour could affect success in general and magic skills could specifically improve success rates of the corresponding higher level spells 15:52:48 I see 15:53:37 say, would it be okay to always include autofight.lua? 15:53:53 include into what? 15:54:09 galehar: Do you think a GDA user should be able to cast level 7 spells (say) at perfect success? 15:54:10 the init file, other than the others it's not included by default 15:54:21 I want to tie it into the new command tile tab 15:54:23 jpeg: yes, since we have it, it should be included. 15:54:29 Also, it will be a must-have for handhelds. 15:54:36 dpeg: no. Even at max skills. 15:54:49 they can't currently, can they? 15:54:57 galehar: I agree. (rob started with a similar premise when he did the Defense page btw.) 15:55:11 even robe users can't get level 7 spells perfect 15:55:24 MarvinPA: oh 15:55:31 I must have been meaning excellent. 15:55:40 I mean, at max skills in GDA, maybe cast level 7 spells at good, not more. 15:56:08 8th and 9th level spells shouldn't be usable in GDA. 15:56:08 I don't particularly like that 15:58:12 what's the goal, making casting level 4-5 spells more feasible in heavy armor? 15:58:40 syllogism: I think one goal is to make sure that spell sets look different, depending on armour type. 15:58:41 also, yes, but only with high armour skill 15:59:34 why shouldn't 8th and 9th level spells be usable in GDA at max skill? max skill is a *lot* 15:59:44 27 armour, 27 spellcasting, 27 in each spell school 15:59:56 you need to max so many skills to get there the nerf would only affect grinders and maybe 15 runers 15:59:57 and both very high str and int 16:00:00 you also need huge int to do that 16:00:22 to say that someone with all of that can't do it - then what is someone who doesn't have all of that going to be able to do in GDA? 16:00:30 Okay, so spell success is positively determined by schools, Spc, Int (of which we want to remove Spc, I think, but that is another issue). It should be hampered by a version of EVP, which in turn is mitigated by Str and Armour skill. The question is how to set it up. 16:00:31 because I want high armour to be different. You have to chose between good defense or high level spells. You can't have both. 16:00:31 some players like grinding and I dont see a reason to restrict them 16:00:49 galehar: but you arent actually affecting anyone with that change 16:01:01 you can't have high armour and high spell skills in a normal game 16:01:09 galehar: you can have good defense and high level spells by focusing on EV and stuff like plane shift 16:01:14 syllogism: there are a number of reasons to restrict... I promised Erik to not cut on infinite gaming, but it causes problems. 16:01:33 such as? 16:01:48 dpeg: yes, focusing balance on people with max skills causes problems in trying to balance for the 99.99% of games that aren't that 16:01:57 ^ 16:02:24 I think you misunderstood him :P 16:02:25 it is not about focusing balance on them, it is just impossible to balance for divergent sets like these 16:02:35 also, wrt to wanting to see different spell sets 16:02:38 I also hope it can create a new type with medium EV, medium AC and medium level spells. 16:02:45 galehar: yes, that is another goal 16:02:56 you will see this with a constant armor fail percentage: emergency spells will become much less appealing, as will spells with bad miscasts 16:03:16 I would put it like this: middling armours should have a use apart from being training stations. 16:03:27 going from, say, 1%-or-less to 5%-or-more fail rate is a big deal for something like cblink or borg 16:03:38 middling dragon armours are useful, at least 16:03:43 dpeg: I agree, that's another goal of my proposal 16:03:44 unfortunately that will not be achieved with spell failure alone 16:03:49 dpeg: some of this is the stats on mid range armors sucking 16:03:56 syllogism: true, but it is one ingredient 16:04:22 stats on dragon armour are pretty good actually 16:04:35 before we nerf GDR again, maybe we should nerf spellcasting in armour. So that you really have to make a choice. 16:04:54 I expect it to see a lot more use in current trunk, even without changing anything else 16:05:12 you can't realistically cast anything particularly useful in gdr 16:05:34 galehar: do you agree that there should be a certain Str demand, as well as an Armour demand to overcome an armour item's impact on spell success? 16:05:44 (and do we agree that it is about success, rather than power?) 16:05:50 yes, I left the strength penalty 16:05:57 Eronarn: oh, nice 16:06:13 galehar: I was quite fond of that, because it does give high Str a goal (bigger armours) 16:06:15 yes, I only changed success 16:06:56 indeed. It prevents deep elf with uber magic skills to put on a plate mail and keep casting fire storms 16:07:03 Eronarn <--> elliptic, sorry 16:07:14 there already is a strength requirement 16:07:22 or is that what you mean? 16:07:31 yes, we added that when nerfing AC last time 16:07:39 ah right 16:07:42 one thing that would help medium armour is to use a different GDR formula... the current formula would be fine if GDR utility was linear, but 40% GDR is much more than twice as good as 20% GDR 16:08:05 elliptic: I think that's an excellent point. Was never considered, as far as I know. 16:08:13 marvinPA, yes, that's what I mean, I was answering to dpeg saying he likes the existing strength penalty 16:08:34 the damage prevented by GDR is a quadratic function of the GDR amount, approximately 16:08:51 galehar: my other point is that Str and Armour effects should be separate (which is the case, afaiu) 16:09:51 elliptic: because there is a dice roll involved? 16:11:13 dpeg: they both affect AEVP 16:11:14 dpeg: right, one way to think about it is that if you are guaranteed to prevent 5 damage from a given attack, that only helps you if your AC roll is between 0 and 5, and it only helps you by 2.5 damage on average 16:11:27 ??aevp 16:11:27 aevp[1/1]: Adjusted body armour evasion penalty. Affects spell success, melee accuracy. Its value is [base_penalty + max(0, 3*base_penalty - str)] * [45 - armour_skill]/45. 16:11:42 but if you are guaranteed to prevent 10 damage, then it helps you twice as often, and it helps you by 5 damage on average (twice as much) 16:12:05 I put some tables on the wiki for the poor sap who can't open a spreadsheet ;) 16:12:06 so the total damage prevention is quadrupled on average by doubling the GDR 16:12:14 how does gdr function currently, is it still based on monster's max damage 16:12:19 yes 16:12:20 the debug message is confusing me 16:12:31 AC: at: stone giant, df: you, dam: 41 (max 45), DR: 10 (GDR 7) (I've 15 ac but 60% gdr) 16:12:36 03j-p-e-g * r93ee8381055c 10/crawl-ref/ (5 files in 2 dirs): Add the hit_closest to the command tile tab. 16:12:38 03j-p-e-g * rae7fc709d519 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/commands.txt: Add a description for the autofight command. 16:12:48 the actual details are a little more complicated than I just said because you also have to consider the monster's damage roll 16:13:20 since if that is really low, then having higher GDR won't matter 16:13:54 I cannot say how to make it better, but I think that elliptic's point should not be forgotten. Any ideas? 16:14:58 is gdr still capped to your current AC 16:15:01 yes 16:15:06 but that usually doesn't matter 16:15:59 it seems to me it does 16:16:03 unless you are using two randart -6 rings of protection or something, that cap will pretty much never apply 16:16:07 if you find a good armor early on 16:16:18 dpeg: i think that we should set up a test suite for combat 16:16:19 +0 16:16:25 we spend too much time talking about stuff like this 16:16:54 i don't mean just fight simulator, but something comprehensive and automated 16:17:17 syllogism: if you find and decide to use +0 CPM early on then it might barely apply against ogres and such, yeah 16:17:28 Eronarn: I agree, that's a great idea! Would you code it? :) 16:17:35 say, some standard set of 10-20 monsters and PCs of varying stats 16:17:52 but more realistically, you'll have 30 AC or so in your CPM, so the cap won't matter unless something has an attack with max damage higher than 50 16:18:09 -!- Hehfiel has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:18:22 and by the time you find such monsters, you'll actually have 40 or 50 AC 16:18:35 galehar: i would be glad to help out on it but i am going to be fairly busy for a bit 16:18:44 and i have other crawl stuff backlogged already 16:19:08 I guess we all have... 16:19:47 but having a good fight simulator, or an arena with a player would be really helpful to balance the game. 16:19:50 yes... but on something like this, the design will matter a lot, anyways 16:20:00 https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AqvhLOPFHpiMdHJ0djBhYV9vZzR4eU9iTHZvV0R1cUE&hl=en&authkey=CJzzv5QC 16:20:05 which monsters we use, which stats to collect, etc. 16:20:38 (it would be nice to make it plug into R!) 16:21:05 galehar: what does "armour level value" mean there? 16:21:28 it's the effect of one armour level on the armour penalty 16:21:55 galehar: was there any purpose to increasing the tab margin? 16:22:03 surely that isn't right, I thought armour skill didn't reduce armour penalty to zero 16:22:05 for comparison, school skill has an effect of 12 for single school spells, 6 for dual schools,... 16:22:18 galehar: only it sometimes ever so slightly overlaps with long messages 16:22:56 but there it looks like you are saying that armour skill of 14 currently means no penalty for GDA, for instance? 16:23:05 jpeg: at 15 there was just the space to put the text in between tabs. It seemed cramped, so I pushed it to 20. 16:23:27 if I'm reading that right it doesn't look like casting level 8-9 spells in gda will be impossible with that system 16:23:31 jpeg: You can revert it to 15 if it helps on your little netbook :) 16:23:51 galehar: okay, I'll try fiddling the values to see if I find a good compromise 16:24:46 the fact that it's possible to actually cast in heavy armour now is also one of the few reasons i'd consider using it even with the GDR increase 16:24:46 -!- Hehfiel has joined ##crawl-dev 16:25:04 elliptic: what? you're not reading it right! 16:25:19 galehar: well, what does "current armour penalty" mean? 16:25:24 also you just changed it :P 16:25:47 skill 27 please :P 16:25:57 syllogism: the penalty goes from 70 to 163 for 9th level spell in gda. You're right, that may not be enough! 16:26:07 163 is lower than currently at max skill 16:26:08 -!- Hehfiel has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:26:24 at least if my old sheet is accurate 16:26:30 oh, you can't change skills... 16:26:42 -!- Hehfiel has joined ##crawl-dev 16:26:43 let me fiddle with the sharing rights 16:27:03 oh, current armour penalty is with some skill 16:27:10 wait 16:27:12 I assumed that was the base penalty with zero skill, sorry 16:27:16 I wasnt using my sheet right :P 16:27:26 that penalty is higher 16:28:12 ok, you should be able to change the spreadsheet 16:28:20 * dpeg does not understand the tables. 16:28:35 feel free to check various skill levels and test other values for a and b 16:28:50 armour penalty is a completely nonsensical value that goes through stepdown and such, along with your spellcasting bonuses :P 16:28:58 dpeg: in bold, there is the armour penalty for the current system 16:29:22 ok 16:29:54 the problem is spellcasting penalties in medium armour aren't very high to begin with :P 16:30:04 so I dont think these minor buffs will change anything 16:30:07 at skill level 27 16:30:21 I've changed the skill level 16:30:27 it's now 3*EVP 16:30:36 note that people will never use something like chain mail 16:30:38 which shows normal progression 16:30:44 dragon armour is only 2 evp 16:30:51 syllogism: ok, but at least dragon armours 16:30:51 or 3 16:31:01 dragon armour is 3 evp, swamp dragon is 2 evp 16:31:45 both are pretty good with the enchantment cap if you have unlimited enchant scrolls 16:32:06 storm is 5 though unless that changed 16:32:07 I appreciate the effort but I don't particularly see the point of this system but maybe I'm missing something 16:32:07 ??storm dragon armour 16:32:08 storm dragon armour[1/1]: A magical armour made from the scales of a lightning-breathing dragon. It is heavier than most dragon scale armours, but gives its wearer great resistance to electrical discharges. (heavy armour; AC 10, EV -5, insulation, 60.0 aum.) 16:32:44 rF++ is much nicer than rElec though 16:32:45 well you do nerf heavier armor casting 16:32:47 elliptic: this one should be good as well 16:32:49 but no one does that already 16:33:07 syllogism: there are several goals. Make the armour skill more important than magic skills for casting medium to high level spells. 16:33:25 make the middle armours more attractive if you want to cast 16:33:30 syllogism: a couple of people won recently casting level 9 spells in crystal plate mail, i'm guessing the aim is to nerf that 16:33:40 MarvinPA: one aim, not the aim 16:33:42 MarvinPA: yes after grinding pan with bugged ashenzari 16:33:44 although the ash xp bug is probably what made that possible 16:33:45 that shouldnt be an aim 16:33:47 make it easier to cast low level spells in heavy armour 16:33:59 make it very hard to cast the higher level spells. 16:34:12 Atomjack (L20 TrMo) (D:1 (ZotDef)) 16:34:29 I don't see the point in making it easier to cast in heavy armour, personally 16:34:40 which is really what this does; the low-level spells are the most important ones 16:34:54 it doesnt look like you can cast anything really in a plate 16:34:57 except very end game 16:35:15 a little bit easier to cast low level spells. For anything higher than level 3, this is a big nerf 16:35:36 so what can you cast 16:35:45 blink, apportation, swiftfly 16:35:57 those are so easy to cast regardless of the penalty 16:36:02 armour skill wont play a part 16:36:11 well 16:36:14 change armour skill to 5 16:36:24 seriously, independent failure rate :| 16:36:50 but yeah, those don't really need to be any easier to cast in heavy armour 16:36:59 it will result in a much more interesting distribution of spell success rates than 'what we have now except even more extreme' 16:38:03 a 3 or 5 or 10 percent failure rate that cannot ever be mitigated by raising spell skills will be *very* noticeable 16:38:45 elliptic, syllogism: what do you think? 16:39:15 it appears to me to just nerf heavy armour casting and not really encourage much 16:39:33 there are 2 parts to my proposal. Increase the effect of the armour skill on AEVP (changing a from 45 to 36) and scaling the armour penalty with the spell level. We can also keep a at 45. 16:39:56 the armour penalty already *effectively* scales with the spell level 16:40:00 I'm not really sure what is deemed to be wrong with the current casting-in-armour system, so I can't really comment 16:40:13 (i know the actual subtraction doesn't, but the effect on net % does) 16:40:51 the thing that really annoys me, is that the penalty is too easy to overcome with just magic skills. Armour skill isn't useful enough. 16:40:53 so adding it in as an explicit factor will just increase the effect; but it already exists 16:41:03 ...what galehar says 16:41:14 galehar: this will always be the case if you are just adding on penalties to the numbers 16:41:26 We have learned through Ash which skills are underpowered....and Armour is too weak, it seems 16:41:31 galehar gives an example 16:41:37 why is armour too weak? 16:41:40 galehar: I like that but if you make it almost impossible to cast higher than level 3 spells in heavy armour, no one will bother 16:42:01 if armour skill is worth X, and spell skill is worth Y, and X-Y = spell success, then you are putting the two in direct competition 16:42:19 syllogism: it won't be impossible with high armour skill 16:42:20 dpeg: getting armour to 27 is one of the things that people use ash for :P 16:42:33 elliptic: good to know :) 16:42:48 all you can do is make the subtraction from a lack of armour skill bigger, relative to the increase from magic skill 16:43:27 but the same issue remains; you just increase the amount of skill you need to override the armor penalty completely (but also, you make it impossible to cast higher level spells *without* absurd levels of magic skill) 16:43:43 I am shying away from this discussion... I forced myself to do to 0.6 armour nerf and I am not happy with the results. I think I (we?) learned that boosting GDR until it matters is a good thing, as well as forcing heavy armour users to go with Str (idea from 4.1). 16:43:53 Eronarn: except that in my system, the armour skill effect on the penalty is multiplied by the spell level. 16:44:06 which you can see in the second table. 16:44:09 Eronarn: this is not true, they could be independent. 16:44:18 I generally agree with eronarn that it would be good to have an independent failure check that doesn't depend on magic skills, just Str / armour skill / type of armour 16:44:25 dpeg: huh? i'm in favor of an independent check 16:44:41 You build up with magical skills. Independently of that, you go down with EVP; you reduce that by Str+Armour skill. 16:44:42 and it sounds like this would help deal with any perceived problem about armour skill not mattering enough 16:44:49 dpeg: that's not independent 16:44:52 Eronarn: I know, I think I am too. 16:45:11 or, maybe i'm misreading what you mean on that, not sure 16:46:02 I guess the whole thing needs more time. The system is too complex for me at least. 16:46:08 also, galehar: i think you are missing the point; with the way the spell success # is rolled, there's severe diminishing returns 16:46:14 galehar: one of the things that I don't like about your proposal is that it will be really really easy for heavy armour chars to get the really good L1/2 utility spells to excellent 16:46:47 they aren't really that good 16:46:48 there will be no reason not to get apport/blink/swiftness etc on every non-trogite 16:46:58 there's already no reason then 16:46:59 there already isn't much reason, but this just makes that worse 16:47:03 this leads to the status quo: you cast haste at whatever, wearing armour makes it useless. so you raise the skill further - and even with no armour skill or strength, you will overcome that penalty 16:47:04 does it 16:47:11 isn't that already the case? 16:47:19 that is the behavior that i am trying to get rid of with my proposal 16:47:28 looking at the sheet it doesnt really make it any easier 16:47:29 galehar is suspiciously silent. But I know that feeling when a billion comments are raining upon one poor soul. 16:47:39 yours just raises the bar, but leaves it intact (it does make armour skill matter more, but it is still possible to just rely on very high skills to override armour) 16:47:47 syllogism: only slightly easier 16:48:46 this chart would be more useful if it showed spell success rates instead of the penalty 16:49:00 i know it's annoying to accomplish since I did that on mine :P 16:50:22 syllogism: send me your chart, I'll see if I can improve mine. 16:51:03 what's your email 16:51:17 raphael.langella@gmail.com 16:52:23 is .ods fine 16:52:32 surze 16:52:34 sure 16:53:12 I'm terrible at excel so the formulas are pretty clumsy :P 16:53:27 sent it anyway 16:53:29 ok 16:53:31 thanks 16:53:39 I won't look at it tonight anyway 16:54:07 the chart was done for the 0.6 overhaul so it has all sorts of unrelated stuff 16:58:30 Atomjack (L22 TrMo) (D:1 (ZotDef)) 17:08:46 messages_at_top option doesn't work (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3072) by Cadogan 17:10:08 I'm changing the range of sticky flame to 1 17:10:56 should we do something when creating ghosts with the spell? Keep it? Use the monster version (full range)? Change for another one? 17:10:59 will it automatically hit like vamp draining/freeze at range 1? 17:11:01 will it autohit? 17:11:05 hah, snap 17:11:22 And also, should the tome of destruction cast it? 17:11:55 I don't know about autohit. I didn't follow the whole discussion yesterday. 17:12:05 did something came out of it? 17:12:14 autohit did. 17:12:59 ghosts being stronger than the player ever was when alive seems to be the rule 17:13:47 Attempting to pacify a sleeping monster fails but wastes a turn (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3073) by MarvintheParanoidAndroid 17:13:58 then again, range 1 -> full range is extreme 17:15:25 so is agony -> torment, hey agony is a monster spell now so that should be changed :P 17:15:31 I'm already splitting the spell into 2 versions (player and monster). A third one for ghosts seems a lot... 17:15:33 so making ghosts use the same restriction seems like the better option to me 17:16:19 yeah, some of the spell mappings for ghosts are a bit ridiculous 17:16:30 jpeg: but maybe the AI won't like the change. 17:16:43 anyway, that can be fixed later :) 17:16:54 there are short-range monster spells, aren't there? 17:17:17 give ghosts with sticky flame a napalm melee attack 17:17:18 it might mean that ghosts hardly ever got around to cast the spell, which would be sad 17:17:49 it'd only affect smoke demons and balrugs i think, anyway? most other stuff has the breath weapon instead 17:18:27 do any wizards have sticky flame? 17:18:31 oh and drac scorchers 17:18:37 oh right them 17:18:58 and yeah, deep elf conjurers 17:19:17 I have added a monster version of the spell which keep the full range 17:19:23 only the player is nerfed :) 17:19:25 @??draconian knight 17:19:25 black draconian knight (10d) | Speed: 10 | HD: 16 | Health: 113-146 | AC/EV: 12/12 | Damage: 15 | Flags: evil, spellcaster, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(85), 10elec++ | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 2495 | Sp: b.lightning (3d21), b.cold (3d25), b.draining (3d20), animate dead, teleport self / b.lightning (3d21), b.fire (3d25), b.cold (3d25), cantrip, b.lightning (3d21), b.draining (3d20), teleport self / b.ligh.. 17:19:33 oh it cuts off 17:19:46 I recall DrKn having the same books as DECj 17:19:46 so there's 4 different versions of sticky flame now, nice :P 17:20:17 why 4? 17:20:47 player mottled drac breath, player spell, monster spell, monster breath (mottled drac/dragon, hell hog) 17:21:14 maybe the monster breath should work like the player breath 17:21:43 that'd be a nerf for monsters though, since the player isn't nearly as likely to have adjacent allies for it to splash to 17:21:59 the player breath is pretty cool though 17:22:00 good thing monster sticky flame hardly does any damage anyway 17:22:07 it's more like scroll destruction hell 17:24:08 fire crabs will compete with sticky flamers for scroll destruction 17:25:00 I think they already won 17:25:18 they also do damage too, though 17:25:31 do they spit flame clouds drake-style? 17:25:35 also too? I'm dying :( 17:25:50 @??fire crab 17:25:51 fire crab (04t) | Speed: 11 | HD: 8 | Health: 37-67 | AC/EV: 9/6 | Damage: 1504(fire:8-15), 1504(fire:8-15) | Flags: !sil | Res: 06magic(42), 04fire+++ | Vul: 09poison | Chunks: clean/none/unknown | XP: 491 | Sp: flame blast (d12). 17:25:56 it's a flame blast 17:26:10 I mean 17:26:13 flame cloud blast 17:26:16 does the player ability needs to be nerfed too? 17:26:17 basically a fire analogue of freezing cloud, I think 17:26:19 makes a big explosion of flame clouds 17:26:36 galehar: mottled drac breath is already range 1, if that's what you mean 17:26:52 ok 17:27:10 it doesn't autohit but it can splash to adjacent enemies 17:29:11 oh also, if it's made range 1 will vehumet increase the range? he doesn't for freeze, come to think of it 17:29:28 but it seems reasonable enough for him to still do so 17:29:50 MarvinPA: freeze isn't on the list of veh-supported spells 17:30:00 MarvinPA: orefrig is, though 17:30:05 right, which is sort of odd maybe, i don't know 17:30:10 (it is) 17:30:10 oh god are we really talking about this again 17:30:10 it shouldn't be autohit if it is higher than range 1 though 17:30:13 didn't you already have this exact same discussion yesterday? 17:30:21 yes 17:30:26 i wasn't here yesterday, sorry :P 17:30:58 i don't remember if there was any conclusion, though 17:31:00 i'm not at all opposed to it being range 1, just throwing out stuff as i think of it :P 17:31:15 I can't recall any conclusion, either 17:31:54 i think one of the suggestions was to have vehumet improve power/success (can't remember which), but not range 17:32:17 or maybe i'm making that up, I only skimmed the log after all :p 17:32:22 that'd be a weird exception to every other spell he supports, though 17:32:32 jpeg: yes, that's what the sane people agreed on :P 17:32:49 MarvinPA: well, we have a choice in that we can say vehumet doesn't extend 'touch' spells, if we want to 17:33:07 there just so happens to be only one touch spell that counts as a destructive spell 17:33:20 should also possibly make sticky into a pure fire spell 17:33:22 but if sticky flame became sticky freeze, it wouldn't get a range boost, either 17:33:22 not fire/conj 17:33:29 if it is going to be a touch spell 17:33:47 ok, for now, I'll just reduce the range to 1. We'll see later about auto-hit and Vehumet. 17:34:03 apparently vehumet occasionally also supports non-conjuration spells, as long as they're destructive 17:34:11 yes 17:34:12 jpeg: yes, there's a list 17:34:13 jpeg: sure, but vehumet doesn't increase their ranges 17:34:21 elliptic: sandblast 17:34:22 which made the objection to making freeze on that list... odd 17:34:23 just reducing the range to 1 and leaving it at that (no autohit but increased range with veh) would be consistent with sandblast, anyway 17:34:27 oh right 17:34:40 although sandblast is range 2 now but whatever 17:34:54 crazy sandblast range with veh 17:35:00 4!! 17:35:10 which makes it completely better than old stone arrow right 17:35:12 or is that 5 17:35:21 stone arrow and iron shot are 5 17:35:37 anyhow: sticky freeze sucks, go with sticky flame touch 17:36:19 and probably tweak the touch power formula a bit, it is somewhat weird atm 17:36:30 using UC bothers me, but maybe I'm weird 17:37:08 is it actually touch now, or is that shorthand for "range 1 spell"? 17:37:14 right now, shorthand 17:37:21 i would like it to function as conf touch does 17:37:31 making FE melee stuff destroys their well established playstyle 17:37:39 swapping to unarmed constantly is no fun 17:37:43 zazazaw-k' 17:38:13 yeah, confusing touch actually has good synergy with unarmed... you confuse stuff and then you beat on them 17:38:21 sticky flame being touch would just be strange 17:38:24 (boost sticky touch (on a) power, switch to unarmed, apply, switch back to staff of fire on a) 17:38:28 MarvinPA: we could address this in part with changing how touch charges work: for example, make it give you an automatic aux attack 17:39:00 i agree that the interface is somewhat problematic; not cripplingly so, but it could use some work 17:39:39 (but we should look into doing that work - having to attack enemies to sticky flame, and maybe getting more than 1 flame out of one cast, is more interesting than sticky freeze) 17:40:18 if confusing touch adds an automatic aux, perhaps give it to enchanters as their level 1 spell, give them some stabbing skill, remove darts and throwing and other nonsense like that 17:40:22 well i don't even know what you mean by sticky freeze, and i think just reducing the range to 1 like galehar said and leaving it at that for now is fine :P 17:40:22 or would that be overpowering 17:40:38 MarvinPA: sticky freeze = range 1 auto-hit 17:40:45 ah right 17:40:45 MarvinPA: same here 17:40:49 :) 17:40:59 change of plan, I'm making it auto-hit. 17:41:03 haha 17:41:06 :) 17:41:17 monky: i think that would be a good thing to do as part of the ench split if enchanters ended up a bit weak 17:41:41 back 17:41:52 oh hey speaking of ench split, i'm kinda interested to try a dedicated hexer if that gets put on CDO 17:42:03 auto-hit sticky flame = :| 17:42:11 (there should be a race with awesome hex apt but terrible ench apt, like vp or something) 17:42:18 MarvinPA: SE 17:42:26 dpeg: I'm doing the sticky flame range nerf 17:42:28 that would also make sense, yeah 17:42:37 yeah, SE and Vp would be hexers... spriggans and HE would be charmers 17:42:42 is the ench split already being worked on by someone? 17:42:42 also give slude elves good Stabbing; they're supposed to be dirty fighters 17:42:43 DE good at everything, of course 17:42:50 jpeg: kilo has a branch for it 17:43:17 at least last time I read their description they wee supposed to be dirty fighters 17:43:32 monky: the S in SE is for Strangle 17:43:34 the e is for Everyone 17:43:48 Eronarn: spriggans not hexers? what happens to their Stabbing, then? 17:43:54 (or did I misunderstand) 17:43:58 re SF: Veh shouldn't extend range (it is a touch); inproving accuracy (up to auto-hit) is fine as a compensation for the range nerf (want still a chance for invisible foes?) 17:43:59 we've got gazillion branches... 17:44:20 monky: not everything needs to be good at (stabbing + hexes + stealth) 17:44:25 2/3 is fine 17:44:36 though some might want spriggans to remain good at hexes 17:44:53 i'm against autohit on invisible foes 17:44:54 I remember them having some hexy flavour, too, but maybe that's false 17:45:08 they don't really have consistent flavour (spriggan berserkers, anyone?) 17:45:22 mythologically they are somewhat hexy yes 17:45:29 yesterday Eronarn brought up sticky flame highlighting invisible monsters and autohit for that seems a bit weird 17:45:40 jpeg: that's the way freeze and vamp draining work already 17:45:46 you'd still have to have them next to you, which you're never sure about for unseen horrors 17:45:47 also on submerged stuff 17:45:58 or at least, not usually sure about 17:46:00 MarvinPA: you are sure if they're a disturbance 17:46:11 Eronarn: yes, but those don't add the corona effect as an added boost 17:46:18 but who uses scrolls of fog on unseen horrors 17:46:24 or shallow water I guess 17:46:24 I talked with due about the matter of touch (like Vamp Drain) vs range 1 spell. The question (interface-wise) is whether you will want to apply the same monster again (then auto-target is better, i.e. spell) or if you want to change targets (then giving a direction is better). 17:46:32 For SF, the latter is true, I think. 17:46:37 jpeg: making it not corona would be bad; making it work differently from freeze/vamp would also be bad 17:46:42 can you sticky-flame underwater monsters? 17:46:55 no, sticky flame was nerfed to go out in water 17:47:21 requiring a direction for targeting is a pain for setting up macros, which is very helpful for often-used spells 17:47:22 Eronarn: in that case I'm in favour of reducing to-hit (less than autohit) against invisible foes 17:47:34 jpeg: why 17:47:36 jpeg: +1 17:47:39 making freeze and vamp draining targeted normally was lovely in that regard 17:47:46 unless you're talking about nerfing freeze/vamp draining 17:47:51 which, whatever, i guess 17:48:01 MarvinPA: yes, I know. But with a spell like SF autotargeting will not be ideal. 17:48:23 ('Your hands drip with liquid flame.' is still 100x cooler than any of this!) 17:48:39 MarvinPA: Vampiric Draining and Freeze use autotarget nowadays 17:48:46 could even make the Touch status light use flamecloud colours. 17:48:51 jpeg: exactly, which i approve of greatly :D 17:48:57 :) 17:49:00 Giant tile confusion, New Giant tiles! (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3074) by co 17:49:27 MarvinPA: you think that autotargeting would also befit SF? 17:49:33 dpeg: why not? 17:49:41 i think so, since i'd be trying to only have 1 monster in melee range if i were using it 17:50:06 keep it consistent with the others 17:50:12 i think it just feels a bit smoother using the targeting interface than picking a direction 17:50:12 jpeg: because if one guy burns, you may want to set flames on the next one 17:50:17 this is different to VD, say 17:50:49 Is there anything where we still ask for a direction? 17:50:56 isn't the + toggle still easier to handle than actually switching directions? 17:51:22 summon elemental asks for a direction 17:51:24 jpeg: depends... more key presses 17:51:27 i can't think of much else 17:51:35 passwall use direction I guess 17:51:40 oh, passwall 17:51:44 galehar: hi. still here :) 17:51:47 yes 17:51:56 the good point about direction is that you use exactly one key stroke to fire the spell 17:52:28 well, if you only have one enemy in range, it's the same number of key presses either way 17:52:32 but I don't care too much, making it work like VD is fine by me 17:52:37 I have a working range 1 SF with auto-hit and normal targetting 17:52:40 MarvinPA: yes 17:52:45 also, shift+dir still works 17:52:48 galehar: and for invisible monsters? 17:52:50 jpeg: true 17:53:01 why not just make the targeter not autotarget things that are already sticky flamed if it's a problem not wanting to sticky flame people multiple times 17:53:07 galehar: yay! 17:53:16 let me test 17:53:32 the question is wether it auto-hits invisible monsters? 17:53:37 Eronarn: oh my that would be nice (also for EH and confuse and other hexes) 17:53:41 galehar: yes 17:53:44 also: please either nerf all of freeze/vd/stickyflame, or nerf none of them 17:53:54 don't just nerf sticky flame to not autohit invis 17:54:29 galehar: two question: does it target them automatically? (I hope not.) If you guess correctly, does it always hit? (Most here think it shouldn't.) 17:54:33 MarvinPA: yes; lots of situations where it would apply. and of course, because it would annoy some players - we could make it an option! A new one! 17:54:42 hahah, yay for options :P 17:54:49 one for each spell 17:55:05 autotarget_stickyflame, autotarget_ensorcelledhibernation... 17:55:08 for each new option, and old one must die 17:55:17 no to auto-target (of course) and yes to auto-hit 17:55:24 jpeg: We can use coolio's crab tile if you prefer! It's cool with me. 17:55:24 due: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 17:55:27 !messages 17:55:27 (1/1) N78291 said (7h 27m 29s ago): The commit message for bog mummies mentions a potion curse but they actually cause a power 1 necro miscast. 17:55:35 Oh really? 17:55:48 I thought I'd put them in the switch with the potion curse. Gah. 17:56:10 What chance do we want to SF on invisible stuff? 17:56:13 due: i think so, but the current one is also nice 17:56:22 will they only cause potion curses? or be the same as normal mummies? 17:56:32 jpeg: I confess that I like coolio's stance more than the one my friend did. 17:56:32 due: sometimes, I wish we could make all tiles configurable 17:56:46 due: ... and then i realize what a nightmare that'd be :p 17:56:51 jpeg: hah! 17:56:57 I don't think I can make it auto-hit everything except invisible monsters 17:57:11 galehar: Why not? 17:57:15 maybe I can just give it very high accuracy 17:57:28 instead of autohit in general? 17:57:38 Isn't autohit not autohit for invis? 17:57:43 due: or we have to change the spell so it's not a beam anymore 17:58:19 'cos magic dart is ... autohit but not for invislb ecreatures? I can't remember fully. 17:58:25 galehar: what's the alternative, and does it even matter at range 1? 17:59:00 I've copied the accuracy property of magic dart, so it should behave the same 17:59:16 magic dart hits invisible creatures too, i think it just has really really high accuracy (as opposed to freeze/vamp draining which work a bit differently but also autohit things) 17:59:33 but I'm done for tonight. I can change it later, the question is should I push it now as it is? 17:59:44 jpeg: Wow, the amount of new tiles! :o 18:00:29 seriously: don't have sticky flame work differently than vamp draining / freeze :| 18:00:35 like, :| x 1000 18:01:23 maybe latter. Changing sticky flame to use the same interface as vamp draining and freeze needs some code which I'm not doing tonight. 18:01:45 galehar: i think so, you said it works after all 18:01:59 well, it seems to work... 18:02:01 Now, cat in the aviary: are you splitting the spell so that monsters get the original range? 18:02:26 jpeg: nice command tab btw. Too bad it crashes after a few seconds. 18:02:38 due: yes 18:02:47 excellent :D 18:02:51 galehar: push it 18:03:01 that will force feedback and we will clean up the rest 18:03:12 galehar: it does? 18:03:21 Eronarn: the crucial point is to get SF to a close range spell. All else is secondary and will be addressed. 18:03:34 galehar: what commands are you using? 18:03:37 dpeg: i don't see why we're in a hurry to get it half-done 18:03:48 03galehar * r27c03f0257bc 10/crawl-ref/source/ (12 files in 3 dirs): Nerf sticky flame range to 1. 18:04:04 Eronarn: it is a nerf that should been in 0.4 or so. High time to just do it. 18:04:09 jpeg: none. I just mouse over any command and it crashes after 1 or 2 seconds 18:04:13 galehar: read other tab, please 18:04:23 dpeg: yes, but 'All else is secondary and will be addressed' is not really something i have much faith in 18:05:17 Reducing range is a balancing nerf. The rest is about interface, flavour, consistency. All of these are secondary compared to the nerf. 18:05:21 galehar: huh, i did just get a crash in macro.cc that is probably related to the lua call 18:05:31 galehar: but i've yet to see a crash on mouse-over 18:06:07 jpeg: I think it is the popup 18:06:49 update_tip_text 18:07:18 ASSERT(nargs > 0) in 'macro.cc' at line 1417 failed. 18:07:53 galehar: indeed, thanks! 18:10:10 galehar: weird, it worked before the commit - i guess cmd-keys.h or something wasn't uptodate at that point 18:11:44 jpeg: Also, it was my fault re: the crabs, I forgot to uupdate them. 18:11:52 (them->the wiki page) 18:12:11 due: did the wiki page even mention them? 18:13:33 I'm not sure, but I should've updated it. 18:13:42 craaabs :D 18:16:19 ... oh ffs. 18:17:01 There's a massive conversation with "omg omg omg you've got CHRISTIAN symbols on your angels! OH NOES". 18:17:36 due: oh yes, it's amazing 18:17:45 I don't get what the isuse is. 18:17:50 link! I need a good night laugh 18:17:57 Apparently we're banned from using Christian influences? 18:18:06 I don't particularly care either, as long as the tiles look good 18:18:41 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:tiles:tiles_improvement 18:19:12 -!- eith_ is now known as eith 18:19:21 due: our angels should have pentagrams 18:19:22 due: as long as I get to keep my Beogh messiahs walking on water :) 18:19:24 thanx, jpeg. Another problem that would be solved by using letters on tiles :) 18:19:29 the whole discussion used to be on the 0.8 page in the midst of the list of tiles to-do 18:19:39 TSO is shiny! Like a star! 18:20:00 bhaak: do you mean tiles as letters? 18:20:13 bhaak: or that angels should run around with big As on their robes? 18:20:23 dpeg: :) 18:20:40 jpeg: big A's would look a lot like a certain youth subculture 18:20:55 * jpeg sniggers 18:20:57 Let me quote a Rupture song title: "A is for asshole" :) 18:20:59 jpeg: the first one, but the second one might be a good solution too. Superman has a S on his costume, after all :-) 18:21:09 jpeg: In these instances I just nuke it and if people really want to see it, they can read the page history. 18:21:17 dpeg: that would fit players' conception of Zin... 18:22:02 poor Zin 18:22:21 due: i wouldn't mind using the alternative tiles, but I don't like the look of that angel 18:22:40 jpeg: Daevas themsleves are from Zoroastrian religion :) 18:24:11 Didn't start in the entry vault on D:1 (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3075) by MarvintheParanoidAndroid 18:24:27 this is not a bug, I bet 18:24:36 some entry vaults deliberately shuffle {[( around 18:24:42 jpeg, dpeg: Also, Mu and I have beeen brainstorming Abyss-horrors. 18:24:51 abyss-horrors? :o 18:24:56 due: feel free to tidy up that wiki page 18:25:10 Tiles may be a problem but I will be poking my friend as required. 18:25:23 However, I'll put the details on the wiki so that if other people want to start drawing now/feel inspired... 18:25:42 exploring into what was obviously an entry vault later seemed pretty weird 18:25:51 if it's not a bug fair enough, though :P 18:26:56 due: are these like the horrors that were discussed in the demon revamp page? or something else? 18:27:00 MarvinPA: okay, I will go through the entry vaults 18:27:24 Eronarn: Currently they're just names. There's an abyss page that talkes about creating monsters that are less demons and are more Lovecraftian, unknowable evil/horror. 18:27:38 ah, same thing, yes 18:27:49 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: disconnect] 18:29:02 the one existing one on the demon revamp page is the Blade Horror 18:29:27 the main thing I would like to do with such things from a player POV, though, is have SHT summon them rather than abominations 18:29:30 The ones Mu and I discussed were the names he threw out when we were doing up the description for Malign Gateway. 18:29:35 I'm surprised that the crosses were an issue. If I'd played tiles I would have suspected because of the clothes that the angel is a winged crusader 18:29:43 since... well, it's already flavored to be a lovecraftian summon spell 18:29:51 Tentacled starspawn, llurking and thrashing horrors, starcursed mass, ancient zyme and wretched star. 18:29:58 and it's pretty disappointing that most of the stuff it summons is not 18:30:02 I have pretty solid flavour and ideas for most of them. 18:31:40 And physical ideas of what they look like. 18:32:44 due: i would kind of really like to see one that is just a yawning void of nothingness: it eats through the abyss layer as it moves, leaving a flying-only gulf 18:33:35 if you've seen In The Mouth of Madness, imagine the scene with the book 18:34:05 03j-p-e-g * r3b36a6db19c2 10/crawl-ref/source/tilereg-cmd.cc: Fix crash on command tab mouse-over. 18:34:15 It's a mystery how that ever worked... 18:35:01 !tell galehar Could you please detach the command tab? I tried but can't get it to work. Also, thanks for the crash report! 18:35:01 okay then :), jpeg 18:35:02 jpeg: OK, I'll let galehar know. 18:35:11 ow, sorry 18:35:21 Unrodney: leave ##crawl-dev 18:35:29 ? 18:35:47 -!- Unrodney has left ##crawl-dev 18:36:01 we will never get more contributors if you are so rude to them, bhaak!!! 18:36:02 Unrodney? :) 18:36:35 jpeg: I let my bot in for the ascii dreams roguelike poll, but forgot to order him to leave again. Unrodney also listens to ! 18:36:36 Are you defiling our pure and clean crawlness with... unspeakable hack? 18:37:01 so it's a spying bot! 18:37:26 due: it's Un-hack, totally different :) 18:37:40 It is extremely close between TOME and DCSS. 18:37:50 Eronarn: you have enough contributors! 18:38:25 bhaak: it's also not a good tactic to recruit contributors for one of your many projects :p 18:39:18 jpeg: I think bots can take the pain :) 18:48:51 that's it, i call it a night 18:49:13 bye 18:49:22 -!- jpeg has quit [] 18:49:28 night! 18:50:28 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 19:10:36 I think I'm going to use clamping to keep shedu together. 19:12:38 ahahaha funny image. do they drop the clamps when killed? 19:12:48 sorear: <3 19:15:32 what happens if i teleport or banish one shedu? 19:16:09 can xom polymorph shedu? I know he can polymorph MH_PLANT 19:16:13 the other one gets moved with it. 19:16:35 Teleport will move them together, I think. 19:16:40 Banishment won't, though. 19:18:05 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:29:10 -!- cw__ has joined ##crawl-dev 19:30:11 -!- cw_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:32:54 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 19:39:37 Crash upon demonspawn level up (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3076) by tempest 19:48:56 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 20:05:04 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: zzz] 20:05:12 !tell dpeg Thanks for the help. :) 20:05:12 due: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 20:41:49 -!- psyshvl has joined ##crawl-dev 20:49:13 -!- syllogism has quit [] 21:25:49 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:49:39 -!- psyshvl has quit [Quit: stuff] 22:15:36 I am basically cursed to have to deal with tiles no matter what I do. :) 22:30:44 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:48:27 is it really that strange to think "holy = christian" is out of place in crawl? 22:48:33 tso/angels, rather 22:51:57 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 22:58:20 No? 22:58:28 Or rather, yes? 22:58:35 Daevas are Zoroastrian. 23:21:00 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:26:14 Hm, areas aren't saved, are they? Excellent.