00:11:47 -!- Pialein has joined ##crawl-dev 00:14:41 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 00:48:10 -!- scwizard has joined ##crawl-dev 01:22:10 Armour acquirement just creates regular shields for most races. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3012) by elliptic 01:46:15 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:49:19 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 01:50:55 -!- scwizard has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:37:33 Dissolution's abjuration contradicts flavour text (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3013) by MarvintheParanoidAndroid 02:55:12 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:57:22 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 03:50:35 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 04:05:53 -!- Hehfiel has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:15:23 -!- Hehfiel has joined ##crawl-dev 04:28:09 Wrong message for finding multiple gateways back to the dungeon (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3014) by MarvintheParanoidAndroid 04:28:23 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:30:13 -!- CIA-113 has joined ##crawl-dev 04:32:40 -!- MakMorn has quit [*.net *.split] 04:32:41 -!- CIA-47 has quit [*.net *.split] 04:33:03 -!- MakMorn has joined ##crawl-dev 04:33:48 monky: the problem is, early on unwielding distortion is often suicide 04:34:45 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:35:11 monky: and forgiving it if you wielded it unknowingly would lead to people intentionally sticking with distortion even long after they could take the risk... or perhaps even until the end of the game 04:35:38 let them warn you about it or remove it for you (for piety)? 04:35:43 Mu_: meow! 04:36:03 hello 04:36:16 so you mean, good gods should make distortion toothless? 04:36:50 make them blast you every time you banish something with it? 04:37:42 I mean, you wouldn't risk getting stuck with it 04:39:41 I like forcing unwield or punishment equal to that of casting Banishment every time banishment happens 04:54:07 Trricky! 04:54:08 Keskitalo: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 04:54:11 !messages 04:54:11 (1/1) dpeg said (13h 23m 27s ago): There is a whole page about the orb of zot. People will think of that when discussing "zot". Should the orb page become part of the zot one? 04:54:49 !tell dpeg I did link it on the top of the page, I like keeping it separate because it's a long page already, interlinking is probably the best. 04:54:49 Keskitalo: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 04:54:59 The looooong pages become too hard to read quick. 05:30:01 is ashenzari xp boost a bit too much or just broken? Someone on SA has 3 skills maxed, 5 at ~20 7 at 10-15 after 3 runes 05:30:20 fighting 24, spellcasting 23 05:32:38 37.5% is definitely a lot to boost by 05:34:06 i only ever get 2 bound parts when i go ash and the 25% boost seems huge too 05:34:12 especailly if you go ash early when it costs less to train skills 05:34:34 especially* 05:38:46 moin 05:39:35 clearly, ash is broken :P 05:40:33 -!- monky has quit [Quit: hello] 06:07:23 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:09:37 03zaba * r144710e0358b 10/crawl-ref/source/ (dbg-maps.cc dgn-shoals.cc maps.cc misc.cc): Remove #include "flood_find.h" from files that don't need it. 06:09:38 03zaba * rb42527cd5a81 10/crawl-ref/source/main.cc: Don't apply could effects twice to the player. 06:09:59 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:14:17 Zaba: Thanks 06:15:16 greensnark, more code being unified for players and monsters is great 06:19:53 hrm. 06:19:59 what the hell 06:20:42 greensnark, circular_temple gets vetoed on fixup_interlevel_connectivity, wtf? 06:21:12 other temples are not. Maybe it's the presence of the escape hatch that breaks it? 06:22:28 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 06:23:32 Zaba: Check why it's getting vetoed? 06:23:51 'failed to ensure interlevel connectivity', but no idea what part of _fixup_interlevel_connectivity it fails at. 06:24:01 a remarkable feature of that temple seems to be the escape hatch, though 06:24:37 because, bloody hell, it's big and scary and I don't understand all of it 06:24:44 greensnark: Shouldn't Mara really be Takara? 06:24:45 dpeg: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 06:24:52 Also, why is there no Yama in the game yet? 06:24:52 fixup_interlevel_connectivity is, that is 06:25:19 dpeg: Taraka you mean. But Taraka didn't do illusions :P 06:25:30 ??Mara 06:25:30 mara[1/1]: Lord of Illusions! Mara creates two identical (stats, spells, weapon, armour) clones of himself, summons a hostile illusion (based on you), casts bolt of fire, blinks, and casts {Mislead}. 06:25:41 Isn't that a Rakasa? 06:25:45 no 06:26:30 and what's up with all the lord of light references? Is crawl really science fiction? :P 06:30:11 greensnark, huh, and now it has been placed. Before, it was vetoed on every builder's try, so crael terminated. 06:30:23 better Zelazny than Tolkien, I say :) 06:30:35 dpeg, but the genre is a little too different, no? :P 06:33:13 greensnark, is there some obvious way to simplify the insane iteration logic in dgn_find_nearby_stair? The {x,y}{sign,diff,pos} stuff. 06:33:37 I guess its purpose is to visit closest cells first, favouring no particular direction, but bloody hell 06:47:29 Tolkien is classics, Zelazny not really 06:48:32 there are a number of spirits and minor gods named Mara in various mythologies, though 06:49:03 oh, actually not "minor" 06:49:43 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 06:53:25 kilobyte: it is obvious that Zelazny was building on older sources. 06:58:12 yeah... like mostly everyone did before the copyright mafia went on their crusade against culture 06:59:58 that's the core of most of literature: it's counterproductive and hard on the reader to invent a new world and new myths for every book 07:00:40 03kilobyte * re90fb1050bc6 10/crawl-ref/source/ (acquire.cc itemprop-enum.h): Fix acquirement hardly ever generating crystal plates and similar stuff. 07:00:42 03kilobyte * r537098329a05 10/crawl-ref/source/acquire.cc: Make the redundant armour check consider things seen rather than worn. 07:00:53 03kilobyte * ra08af7ca05ec 10/crawl-ref/source/ (itemprop.cc itemprop.h): Don't consider over-expensive shop items as "seen" for acquirement purposes. 07:00:54 03kilobyte * r956b295287d3 10/crawl-ref/source/acquire.cc: Allow acquirement of non-regular shields, weighted by skills. 07:02:00 today, shakespeare and goethe would get into jail in an instant. they just copied well-known stories and added some popular proverbs 07:03:55 I'd go farther and declare copyright a crime against humanity. 07:05:04 dpeg: if I added antimagic branding to the Blade card, should it be affixable? 07:05:08 mark twain wrote an peculiar article about copyright where he wanted perpetual copyright. Problem is, it's not clear if he was joking or not 07:05:48 somehow, elec is a popular brand that can't be gotten from Blade -- not sure if that is intentional, too 07:06:46 greensnark, also, I've just noticed a striking similarity between flood_find and _dgn_fill_zone. 07:21:02 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:26:23 03Keskitalo * r44e93c5fb84a 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: Trampling for yaks and death yaks. 07:32:54 I wonder, what's the point in having separate death yaks and elephants anymore. 07:33:18 Elephants should be vault flavour, like initially. 07:33:45 hmm right, they form most of the opposition these days 07:36:27 I'd just revert 1c1d2d60. 07:39:24 03kilobyte * r4dd0e4622dbf 10/crawl-ref/source/acquire.cc: Adjust plate acquirement (scrolls/genie) for dodging changes from 0.6. 07:39:36 yeah, sounds like a good idea 07:40:20 the plate change means a scroll of acquirement has now a whole 3% chance of yielding a CPM 07:41:57 I wonder if we'd want an actual source of those. 07:42:22 Excellent change 07:43:20 Right now it seems like finding a CPM means the player got really lucky, which I like. 07:43:20 robes of resistance: try all robes from Snake, Elf, uniques, rarely Orc. GDA: V:8, D:27, Zot. 07:47:32 I didn't realize Lord of Light was by Zelazny. I've read the Chronicles of Amber. 08:35:25 03kilobyte * r16c39ca67811 10/crawl-ref/source/acquire.cc: For non-god armour acquirement, prefer not yet seen base types as well. 08:44:16 Unstable branch on CDO updated to: 0.8.0-a0-3959-g16c39ca (31.18) 08:51:49 Keskitalo: You should totally read Lord of Light already 08:52:03 After an appropriate period of penance 08:53:04 I've read lord of light not so long ago 08:57:26 -!- varmin has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:57:33 -!- varmin has joined ##crawl-dev 09:02:07 -!- MakMorn has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:03:39 hmm.. what iterator can be used to iterate over all orthogonal neighbours of a cell? 09:05:37 I'm thinking some of the Zotdef maps could be used for the main game as well.. 09:07:50 Keskitalo: Why don't you commit the new map patches on Mantis 09:08:02 minmay had some interesting temple entries and stuff 09:08:21 Or is that on dpeg's list 09:09:52 Yeah, I did some yesterday, and I dodged ones that dpeg has assigned to himself 09:10:05 Lair sub-branch entry vaults <3 09:11:09 greensnark, radius_iterator rai(p, 1, NULL, C_POINTY, true) will iterate over all four orthogonal neighbours of p, right? 09:11:39 Zaba: Don't ask me, check the actual behaviour :) 09:12:03 I wish there was some sure-fire way to test _check_doors/_hide_doors :P 09:22:36 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 09:33:41 Hahaha, minmay_temple_entry_from_below_c is so cruel. 09:34:06 greensnark, why is the amount of randomly picked exits for floating vaults so limited? 09:34:28 from_below_d is quite possibly a bit too much. 09:34:43 Ah, it's not worse than c. 09:40:12 Damn, minmay's vaults are so fine. Sooo fine. 10:33:58 -!- MakMorn has joined ##crawl-dev 10:51:24 back 10:51:34 kilobyte: yes (on antimagic for blade card) 10:52:16 Keskitalo: the original idea was to give yaks something different than trampling. 10:53:10 Keskitalo: you are free to assign stuff from me to yourself. 10:54:35 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:59:09 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 11:05:26 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 11:05:35 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 11:36:12 Disconnected pan floor with strange layout (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3015) by MarvintheParanoidAndroid 11:39:03 plan_5 11:39:46 MarvinPA, that layout is very rare, and very broken, yes 11:41:33 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:57:35 03zaba * r54b118713cce 10/crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: Use rectangle_iterator and adjacent_iterator in _prepare_water. 11:57:45 03zaba * r09e712f4682b 10/crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: Use rectangle_iterator and radius_iterator in _check_doors. 11:57:46 03zaba * r529399795d3f 10/crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: Use rectangle_iterator and radius_iterator in _hide_doors. 11:57:47 03zaba * r197d540be949 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/builder/layout.des: [3015] Modify _plan_5 so it generates saner levels. 12:09:49 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 12:41:31 -!- Paroid has joined ##crawl-dev 12:58:12 dpeg: Sure, but trampling is good, yaks were boring monsters and should get a thing first; now we can figure out something for elephants to warrant their inclusion. 12:58:29 kilobyte: new save format <3 12:58:59 I want to see what plan_5 looks like, especially broken plan_5 so I'm checking out MarvinPA's save. :) 12:59:37 dpeg: I'll see if I can get to #2932 after the entry vaults, I'll reassign if I do 12:59:47 dpeg: minmays vaults are excellent 13:01:47 03zaba * r6848dfd900bf 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/builder/layout.des: More work on layout_misc: guarantee that spotty_map, if done, has boxy = true. 13:01:47 03zaba * rdd486c44869c 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/builder/layout.des: Simplify odds in layout_city by using crawl.random_element. 13:01:47 03zaba * r9f26b24c91f7 10/crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: Make layout_misc (_plan_5) not so ridiculously rare. 13:02:09 Keskitalo, now you can realistically encounter plan_5 in game. And give feedback. :P 13:02:47 I think it looks pretty fine now.. no longer the 'oh shit, the level is just a few disconnected patches!' thrill, but then, that's probably a good thing. 13:06:38 I'll keep an eye out. 13:07:15 Keskitalo, maybe it's a little too boring now... If you get any idea how a layout can be spiced up, go ahead. :P 13:08:52 -!- Paroid has quit [Quit: Page closed] 13:26:07 geez.. 56 new accounts in the last week 13:44:08 back once more 13:45:00 Napkin: yes. I wondered for a while whether we're under attack. 13:45:16 hey david 13:45:21 hi! 13:45:32 forum-only accounts for now, I guess 13:48:24 Zaba: I seem to get only layout_rooms in Pan now, wizmoding locally.. 13:48:47 Keskitalo: I still don't like the change. 13:49:02 Now we're creating more similarity. 13:53:00 Not really, as long as we don't generate elephants randomly. 13:56:41 I don't like this idea. 13:56:55 Why should a monster like elephant not be generated randomly? 13:57:22 Adding elephants may have been a bit too hasty, I agree. 13:57:48 But now they're there, I don't like giving the elephant's perk to yaks and declaring elephants as useless. That's identity theft! 13:59:03 I don't think the elephants are useless, they are great flavour for the jungle book vault. And hellephants are excellent monsters on their own. 13:59:44 I can agree with making them much more rare (like lindwurms, perhaps), and loners rather than band monsters. 14:01:04 Well, trampling is great with a band. 14:01:20 btw, did anyone reply to my increased damage proposal` 14:02:03 That sounds good, you'd need to choose if you want to be pushed around or take extra damage 14:02:07 yes 14:02:18 and you'd want to position yourself so that trampler doesn't push you into a corner. 14:02:37 lava/water case is difficult.. 14:02:49 maybe it's ok (we don't want instadeaths, right?) 14:03:16 we don't, but then you see what's coming 14:03:22 this is not your ordinary instadeath 14:03:30 Hmm, that is true.. 14:04:48 working off some vault debts here 14:04:59 minmay made an oklob serial vault ==> pure <3 14:05:27 Ooh, nice and nasty :) 14:06:18 Keskitalo: what we can do is something like: "You avoid being pushed into the water as strong." (additional damage) 14:06:26 ((and only with a chance, of course)) 14:06:34 dpeg: for what it's worth, I don't like giving trampling to yaks either 14:06:42 and I don't think that elephants were a problem before 14:08:18 sure, you got a few elephant packs each game, but they were also a unique challenge because of trampling 14:08:25 elliptic: I am a little sad that my ideas for more interesting hear behaviour are not heeded :) 14:08:29 and felt much different from death yaks and such 14:08:31 elliptic: yes 14:08:55 yaks should just stay together, and if one of the band knows where you are, all do; and they can stampede you 14:10:01 I'm not sure yaks even need to be made more interesting... I think there is a place in crawl for a beefy pack monsters with no special abilities 14:10:27 yeah, yaks are really the only big bulky thing that most players run into. 14:10:36 it was different when yaks and ugly things and slime creatures were all essentially the same, but fixing two of the three seems fine to me 14:10:40 They're nothing but a physical threat...at this point there's not many things like that. 14:10:47 I'm not sure I like the speed-up idea of stampede, but the AI idea is neat 14:11:01 elliptic: well, I agree some pressure was relieved. I still think that special behaviour will improve the monsters. 14:11:41 is there a reason why yaks and death yaks are separated? 14:11:47 couldn't we have mixed bands? 14:12:03 mixed bands is a cool idea 14:12:32 I just get a little tired of every monster having its own special gimmick :) 14:12:36 A yak pack could have a death yak leader, that'd be cool 14:12:47 more early lair deaths, go! 14:13:06 Pure death yak packs otoh are better than mixed imo 14:14:39 elliptic: the idea is that plain monsters are not good. 14:14:49 We should try to make the gimmicks meaningful. 14:15:06 dpeg: you seriously don't think that there is a place in crawl for a single plain pack monster? 14:15:07 Keskitalo: yes, I was thinking of that, too. 14:15:28 The presence of plain monsters could probably accentuate the specialness of special monsters 14:15:49 elliptic: there could be, but I never liked how you can separate bands by running around, for example. Herds should stay together, so I like that AI change in any case. 14:15:52 I agree in general that plain monsters are not good, but I can't think of any other than yaks currently, at least that come in packs 14:16:06 changing AI does sound nice, yeah 14:16:14 elliptic: you thikn the uglies and the slimes are okay now? 14:16:44 they are interesting to fight, still far too common but that's an issue with V/late D monster generation being repetitive 14:17:11 jakals and gnolls sometimes appear in a packlike manner 14:17:11 they don't feel like yak packs at all 14:17:20 we need more lategame monsters, clearly 14:17:21 gnolls get weapons 14:17:30 jackals are fast, and really early game 14:18:09 (seriously, the endless swarms of yaktaurs are terrible) 14:18:11 dpeg, mixed bands are still somewhat boring, since the most powerful monsters push past the weaker ones. Inevitably, you're going to be fighting the most powerful first. 14:18:15 just, imo. 14:18:22 Cryp71c: true 14:18:36 cryp71c: only if you can find a corridor to fight in 14:18:46 in lair, this isn't so easy 14:18:55 But having death yak leaders would show that the yak types interbred etc. 14:19:17 dpeg, yeah, 1 death yak and a pack of yaks would be interesting 14:19:17 i don't think it's necessary, tbh 14:19:23 Give the feel of a leader to a pack. 14:19:25 it's different for the sake of being different 14:19:31 Yeah 14:20:13 pack AI should definitely be tweaked though 14:21:19 i would like these behaviors: stay in LOS of each other; stay adjacent to each other; disperse across the level but come together when the player is encountered 14:22:22 Eronarn: they're not really explorers :) 14:22:41 also, AI that's not seen by the player is generally wasted and should be donated to the DF guys. 14:22:48 dpeg: yaks aren't; some pack monsters should be though 14:24:21 I liked Eronarn's idea about wolves, I'm not sure if the idea was this but it could work like this: wolves are in packs but wander the level separately. When one finds the player, it howls, alerting the others, but stays away from the player until the others arrive. 14:24:44 right, that was what Eronarn just said :) 14:24:47 Keskitalo: yes; the idea was also to apply it to ugly things 14:25:10 yes, for actual predators it sounds good 14:25:13 their shout would both be a local, wake-stuff-up noise, and a hear-across-the-level one 14:25:18 especially for wolves because everyone recognises the howl 14:25:38 I personally kind of wish ugly things adapted to their opponent a bit more. Both against the player and especially as a summon. 14:26:03 They're cool, but I'm not sure if the color-changing *really* has made as big a difference as it could. 14:26:28 Keskitalo: yes, I feel the same 14:26:52 I wanted them to have a radius of mutagenic glow, which goes through (most) walls 14:27:26 but at least they are now thematic enough to be improved at any time; no longer plain "ugly things" 14:28:03 just being different colors is pretty nice on its own IMO 14:28:20 yes 14:28:21 sort of like how zot dracs are different colors 14:28:32 and the color-changing keeps things exciting 14:28:57 the main issue I have with the ugly things is that they unbalanced the supply of mutagenic chunks 14:29:03 but falls more under "gimmick=graphical effect" than "gimmick=tactical choice" (as hydras are, for example) 14:29:05 far more now, not sure this is good 14:29:12 elliptic: good point 14:29:34 dpeg: ugly things color-changing is much more than a graphical effect! 14:29:57 Oh yes, they are miles better anyway than before. 14:30:00 +now 14:34:03 -!- Pialein has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:37:11 minmay's glass temple entries will cause a lot of cursing 14:39:23 oh my god, his temple maps are pieces of art 14:39:51 dpeg: Yes, they're incredibly beautiful 14:40:03 And I love the temple entries too :) 14:41:41 I feel the need to reevaluate des files... we can throw out vaults of lesser quality, and we should think about weights. 14:42:40 It would be awesome to be able to get together IRL to do that 14:42:51 but yeah, I agree 14:43:09 I already threw out couple of my own bad ones :] 14:43:31 dpeg: Have you been able to look at the gnoll camp by the way? 14:45:12 Keskitalo: I only read it, didn't play it. Sorry :( 14:45:32 Keskitalo: I once went through entry.des and kicked out a couple of rotten ones, mostly mine. 14:47:44 Yes, that was good pruning.. I do trust your judgement! 14:48:56 thank you 14:48:58 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 14:49:02 galehar: hi! 14:49:11 I guess I'll just go through temple.des and sort them a bit. 14:49:31 hi 14:56:52 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 14:59:29 Does anyone know if using randomisation to (not) place B glyphs (altars) in temple maps fucks up the overflow altar generation? 15:07:34 I'll just advise people to not to do so. 15:14:44 Keskitalo: still around? 15:19:42 dpeg: yes, it appears so 15:21:45 thank you 15:23:48 I would like to cut some temple maps... some of Eino and some of minmay. 15:26:09 dpeg: I don't really like my lava or scatter temples much 15:27:26 or the rhombus maps.. the idea could be employed prettier 15:28:08 if you're thinking of any other maps, just go ahead, I'll try to come up with a better version if I'm feeling attached :) 15:28:56 Keskitalo: right now, I am more concerned about removing maps 15:29:07 Yes, remove first 15:29:22 sorting the various maps of similar types into groups, add up weights and so on 15:29:31 sounds good, soungds good 15:33:16 -!- monky has joined ##crawl-dev 15:33:44 perhaps I will commit first with just the counting and sorting, and then later with the deletions 15:33:54 easier to see what's going on 15:41:24 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:49:05 -!- blackpenguin has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:49:28 Would we want at some point that entries and maps (say temples) correspond to each other? 15:55:02 anyone else thinks a "I finished a Ziggurat and all I got was this lousy T-Shirt" is hilarious as a Zig prize? 15:58:54 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:03:29 galehar: I think it's too nethacky 16:03:43 in particular because we don't even have the base item 16:04:13 well, I wasn't thinking that you would be able to wear it 16:04:45 and it's a wider reference than just nethack 16:05:31 yes, but it is a popular one :) 16:05:45 sure 16:05:58 a misc item of obscure use and origin, and specific to ziggurats would be fine with me 16:06:10 could be a special card deck or whatever 16:06:17 or a randart "of the Ziggurat" 16:06:23 dpeg: I was just about to suggest that. 16:07:01 Hi Enne! 16:07:14 randarts are much easier to produce, so I support that :) 16:07:45 You could even produce a randart of a type the player doesn't have, so they could collect a full set. ;) 16:08:44 awesome :) 16:09:00 And I mean, so remove the smiley. 16:09:03 +it 16:09:11 galehar: what do you think? 16:09:49 might be cool 16:10:54 but I thought players doing Zig run always have extreme stuff already 16:11:06 oh, this is about collecting stuff, not goodies. 16:11:25 We will get death reports like "I died in the 10th ziggurat, and I was only lacking my Shield of the Ziggurat." 16:11:51 yeah, that's why I was thinking misc item (or joke one) was more appropriate than randart 16:12:36 what about races with restricted slots? 16:12:47 oh, we could hand out plain (unmodified) items with just the label 16:12:55 galehar: I think the idea is just to have them all. 16:13:53 there's 6 armour slots. Do players really do that many Zigs? 16:14:33 now they will have a reason 16:14:45 also weapon, two rings and amulet ==> 10 :) 16:15:26 OK, I'll tell you what I think of this when I have finished a single Zig ;) 16:16:48 :) 16:18:02 anyway 16:18:05 bedtime 16:18:06 bye 16:18:11 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: disconnect] 16:28:46 : set_border_fill_type("open_sea") 16:28:53 Can this be achieved with a TAG? 16:35:20 -!- blackpenguin has joined ##crawl-dev 16:37:29 03j-p-e-g * r3c92bb792c85 10/crawl-ref/source/ (show.cc tileview.cc): Invert the order monsters, clouds and items are checked for drawing. 16:48:58 Where can I see the floor tile types? 16:50:11 no tiles people around :( 16:50:23 guess the vault won't get tiles specials then 16:51:26 -!- cw has joined ##crawl-dev 16:52:33 dpeg: Say it ain't so! 16:54:23 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 16:54:32 !seen galehar 16:54:33 I last saw galehar at Tue Dec 21 22:18:11 2010 UTC (36m 22s ago) quitting with message Quit: disconnect. 16:55:59 due, Napkin: please update windows builds 16:58:56 updating 17:02:23 enne: I wish it was! 17:02:38 But I've never done anything with tiles. Apart from looking at them at jpeg's machine. 17:04:23 i wonder if one could emulate tiles mode with a huge terminal and a tiny font and some tweaking of the blitting code 17:10:51 dpeg: If you build rltiles, it should generate HTML files that show a name -> tile mapping. 17:13:48 how do I build rltiles? 17:16:46 dpeg: I'm sure there's a target for it, but make TILES=y will do it. 17:16:49 -!- blackpenguin has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:17:23 Windows development builds on CDO updated to: 0.8.0-a0-3967-g3c92bb7 17:17:41 enne: thanks, will try 17:20:35 Hi folk 17:20:57 Hi due 17:21:03 This vault is eating my doors ;( 17:22:35 How? 17:23:25 I place + and nothing happens, floor appears :O 17:24:27 -!- ortoslon has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:29:15 dpeg: Sounds like you've got a subst or something that's clearing the +? Pastebin the vault? 17:30:31 * dpeg has never used pastebin. 17:30:34 Give me a minute. 17:30:38 -!- valrus_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:31:53 http://pastebin.com/dku4AdPG 17:35:09 tiles won't compile 17:35:14 I'll just make a comment 17:36:39 Huh. 17:36:42 I can't see anything wrong with it. 17:36:54 Do other Temple maps have doors? 17:37:38 I have emailed a solution for the Lair ending issue: instead of increasing the loot/threat of the smaller maps to average the larger, or vice versa, we should just average the smaller maps to be 1/2 the loot and XP of a larger map, and then place two of the smaller maps. 17:37:45 (To c-r-d) 17:37:49 This has nothing to do with the particular map, btw. 17:37:59 All my temple doors are broken. 17:38:03 Hm. 17:38:29 : set_border_fill_type("open_sea") 17:38:54 due: supposedly, ^ worked at some point. But I cannot get open sea borders with this (I get stone). 17:38:59 Yeah. 17:39:15 It's always been hideously buggy. 17:40:39 Something to do with set_border_fill_type not actually being executed before the vault is built into a mapdef ergo the fill type isn't properly stored, etc, etc. 17:40:47 Enne had a proper solution for it but I never got around to resolving it. 17:41:11 ...I did? 17:42:16 Altering the map object to be 80x24 with border_fill_type (and centering the map in it). 17:42:40 (Yes, I actually have a very good memory.) 18:00:01 !tell greensnark Does "extra" work for floating vaults? 18:00:01 dpeg: OK, I'll let greensnark know. 18:02:18 BTW, autoexplore leaves open sea border covered 18:03:51 it considers all squares on the map border to not require mapping (which is technically true, they are never interesting), but this leads to bizarre results 18:03:57 and an information leak, too 18:06:44 true 18:09:33 is there any reason why pan lords on the orb run are always either red or elemental (which appears always to be the random colour)? 18:15:46 no idea, but it is an interesting observation 18:17:53 03dpeg * re7fe1cac3498 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/orc.des: Orc vaults by minmay. 18:18:04 03dpeg * r1ebfaefba8f6 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/lair.des: New Lair vaults by minmay. 18:18:14 03dpeg * rbe52bead1958 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/temple.des: Temple entries and maps by minmay. 18:18:15 03dpeg * r0e4a2ca61a56 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/temple.des: Remove a number of temple maps. 18:18:16 03dpeg * re6d6f54438e4 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/float.des: Floating vaults by minmay. 18:18:17 03dpeg * r436931cdf8b1 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/float.des: More floating vaults by minmay. 18:18:19 03dpeg * ra264ae8ec514 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/ (mini_features.des mini_monsters.des): More minivaults by minmay. 18:19:17 Mmm, yummy! 18:19:27 dpeg: Did you consider the XP output of the new Lair vaults--if any of them were endings? 18:23:26 due: the new vaults by minmay? 18:23:33 They're all too small for endings 18:25:13 Hence "if any of them were endings". 18:25:26 but no, I didn't :) 18:25:28 dpeg: Also, I sent a message regarding the balancing of Lair endings to the list. Comments? 18:26:01 will reply 18:26:19 It was actually the introduction of serial vaults that gave me this thought. 18:27:48 hey, nice 18:28:19 Do you think this is a good idea? It means we can keep the smaller vaults and still have relative balance. 18:32:15 just replied 18:35:08 Why can't we just get rid of all the Lair 8 end vaults/ 18:35:22 sorear: you think they're all bad? 18:35:59 My problem is that while I just wanted something beautiful/thematic to end the branch, it turned into a xp/loot source. 18:36:43 dpeg: removing the monsters and items would be fine too, of course. 18:37:48 I see :) 18:38:03 But yes, I agree that we should disarm the endings. 18:38:25 Vaults always turn into XP sources. 18:38:43 If you are all roughly the same and you are guaranteed to get the same amount of XP, I don't think it's an issue. 18:39:03 I'd rather not decrease the threat level, but I'm certainly for removing loot from the loot-heavy endings. 18:40:07 ok 18:40:20 one of the problems here is the xp mechanic 18:40:31 it prevents fully independant tuning of threat and reward 18:41:47 because monsters are both threat and reward in themselves? 18:42:14 something b0rsuk has been complaining about for a long time 18:42:22 any properly made monster will have the xp reward accurately reflect its threat 18:42:51 and that's a good principle IMO... 18:43:15 of course, it makes independant tuning of threat and xp rewards impossible by definition 18:43:36 kilobyte: Argh, elephants are that common? This is very depressing; I had intended them to be a "rare" ergo "interesting/unique" monster. 18:44:34 I just did a 3-runer, and they are everywhere 18:44:39 :| 18:44:52 save for Snake and Shoals, but these are quick branches 18:44:55 Either drastically reduce frequency or remove completely from generation, in my opinion. 18:45:09 you spend almost all the time in D, Lair and Vaults 18:45:09 kilobyte: did you read what I said to Keskitalo about pushing into water/lava? 18:45:25 (And I'm still against yaks having trampling. I was a bit concenred that it went from "Elephants have a unique attack!" to "*EVERYONE TRAMPLES EVERYTHING YAY!*") 18:45:31 I never understood why so many animals inhabit Vaults. 18:45:48 due: yes, elephants and big dragons, that's good. 18:46:18 dpeg: Possibly because we don't have much in the way of intelligent monsters for Vaults. 18:46:24 all non-elephants should lose trample 18:46:56 I am okay with Xtahua having trample. 18:47:02 And possibly storm dragons. 18:47:46 dpeg: about pushing into water? I see only one reply from you on that thread, and it doesn't raise that issue. Perhaps the mail didn't arrive yet? 18:47:59 sorear: big dragons aer okay 18:48:10 kilobyte: no mail, today here 18:48:30 kilobyte: my point is that being trampled into lava is a lesser instadeath than others. 18:48:42 You see it coming, after all. 18:49:38 unless there's a cloud over the lava - good thing that this is very rare! 18:49:42 However, in a fit of being nice, we could have special stuff like a chance to avoid that last push: "You prevent being pushed into the water." (a chance based on something, perhaps Str; perhaps extra damage) 18:49:58 dpeg: It isn't, really. 18:50:00 Eronarn: if you're being pushed around near lava, you should be careful 18:50:05 due: what isn't? 18:50:12 dpeg: If you are next to lava and you get penned in by a herd of yaks, currently, you do not have any chance. 18:50:26 due: well, perhaps you should react earlier? 18:50:27 Unless you have a blink scroll or some sort of instant escape option. 18:50:41 it's not like they're being dropped around you 18:50:47 dpeg: Based on current implementation, a lot of people wouldn't realise that you *could* be trampled into lava until it was too late. 18:50:56 here's a question: what does it add to the game to let you be instakilled by being trampled into lava 18:50:57 they will learn soon enough 18:51:09 I really don't like removing interesting threats before they can even sting. 18:51:14 Eronarn: a lot 18:51:20 And I am serious. 18:51:33 due is right... the game warns you about instadeaths in all cases. 18:51:37 Then I would suggest some sort of warning before moving next to lava with a trampler nearby. 18:51:37 if there are a lot, you should have no problem coming up with specific examples 18:51:56 Eronarn: you will play differently with water/lava and a trampler around. 18:52:06 And that is exactly what we want. 18:52:32 and it would really slow down play, since you'd need to be extra careful everywhere when there's water on level 18:52:44 that is a function of the number of tramplers 18:52:48 I'm in two minds about it. 18:52:51 i don't like it for the same reason i didn't like the idea of krakens grabbing you and drowning you 18:52:51 we agreed to make elephants rarer 18:52:57 currently unless you see a threat, you can just play fast 18:53:15 dpeg: You appear to be amongst a minority of developers :) 18:53:21 Anyway, I don't have time to discuss it. I should be doing other things! 18:53:21 Bye! 18:53:31 dpeg: different doesn't mean better 18:53:35 I don't think it is a good sign that most of the game can be played in blind mode. 18:56:09 You will stop to evaluate matters when you see a hydra or a drake in Lair. And it should be the same with elephants. 18:56:30 why 18:56:43 Under certain conditions, hydras are more dangerous (e.g. you're an axe user); similarly, elephants are more interesting if there's water around. 18:57:21 -!- blackpenguin has joined ##crawl-dev 18:57:22 if you have to think about every monster you fight, the game will become even longer 18:57:35 then remove some thoughtless bits 18:57:35 i hope you plan on cutting down on the number of levels, or the number of monsters per level 18:57:38 Are you even trying to understand what I say? 18:57:49 Hydras used to be the big threat of (early) Lair. Not sure if their place is taken by elephants now, but a hydra can dish out a lot and take a bit. 18:58:07 If you wield an axe, you may consider leaving the level. Would be same with elephants, if we do it right. 18:58:20 Better than demanding that you can kill them without thinking. 18:58:37 i'm not saying i don't understand your reasoning, i'm saying that i disagree with it; learn to tell the difference 18:58:38 Eronarn: I have cut down the number of levels since four versions. 18:59:08 hydras are _rare_ today 18:59:10 and added more portal vaults 18:59:27 and more intricate vaults requiring more time/effort to clear 18:59:27 kilobyte: If I leave this game, will you take over? 18:59:35 I cannot stand this mindless rabble much longer. 18:59:52 hydras are actually an interesting threat, standing out from most monsters 19:00:11 kilobyte: yes. They are something to want more of (in different ways), not less. 19:01:34 trampling is a good mechanics for stairs, but otherwise, it doesn't make a monster interesting by itself 19:02:23 kilobyte: I agree. This is why I proposed two things: (1) extra damage when you cannot be pushed; (2) pushing into water is allowed. (The latter can be made clear to the player. A trivial exercise I'll not solve here.) 19:02:50 I feel that trampling can be more than just an anti-stairdance gimmichk. 19:02:54 we put a lot of effort to make bland monsters like slime creatures and uglies have unique properties, adding plenty of identical tramplers seems like a step back to me 19:03:17 kilobyte: I replied to Eino's commit because I don't want yaks to trample!? 19:03:40 kilobyte: ie. yes, you're rightz 19:03:40 how far can tramplers push you? do they push every round, or is it rare? i haven't played much trunk. 19:03:48 every round that they hit 19:03:53 every round 19:04:06 it gets ridiculous when you float above water 19:04:18 kilobyte: against dragons? 19:04:57 today, I fought a herd of death yaks in the Shoals, as a heavy armour char with boots of lev 19:05:10 kilobyte: and they were trampling? 19:05:35 with near-0 EV, they hit me every single time, pushing me back 2 squares onto deep water 19:05:53 didn't it used to be 1 square at a time? 19:05:59 I am also surprised. 19:06:18 with my SpAs it was only one square. 19:06:32 every single time = more than once? 19:06:34 they push one square, but they have reach 1 19:06:52 oh, that is another reason to not give trample to death yaks 19:07:04 a trampler with reach 2 would be nice 19:07:04 wait, they do? 19:07:22 Eronarn: this could be just as well the elephant, or better, the dire elephant 19:07:26 ?? reach 19:07:27 I don't have a page labeled reach in my learndb. 19:07:28 dpeg: no 19:07:33 it couldn't because that makes no sense at all 19:07:42 of course not 19:07:52 ≈≈~ 19:07:52 @ Y 19:08:03 my turn: I move towards land 19:08:17 yak's turn: it pushes me back 19:08:32 kilobyte: yes, we understand. It is fun and interesting, but not with a standard monster like the death yak, I'd say. 19:08:53 since they hit most of the time, I couldn't approach them in melee 19:09:30 the whole islet was covered by death yaks, so I couldn't land either 19:09:52 with permanent lev, I just pinged them to death with Makhleb's minor destruction 19:10:34 A monster with reaching and trampling is an interesing anti-melee threat, so could be implemented to good effect. I don't think that death yaks should be it. 19:10:44 aye 19:12:24 what I proposed before was removing elephants and keeping yaks as tramplers, but indeed, taking trample away from them seems better -- but even with that, leaving the hordes of elephants doesn't seem to be a good idea 19:12:50 so we also agreed to reduce the number of pachyderms 19:16:12 i think a big, monstrous plant with both a ranged attack and a reaching trample attack could be interesting 19:17:40 treefolk? >.> 19:17:59 of course 19:21:35 i would like to see mangrove-y treefolk in swamp, personally 19:26:26 -!- Siber2 has joined ##crawl-dev 19:28:28 -!- Siber has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:30:36 what happens when you go down stairs between deep water and a trampler without a source of instant blink? 19:30:41 besides the obvious 19:31:31 OG17: what happens when you go down a stair and something kills you in one hit? 19:32:09 that's uncommon, and I'd hope it's not desirable 19:32:44 no, but it's part of the deal 19:32:49 I'd be completely for having monsters not spawn adjacent to unexplored staircases 19:32:50 we're developing a roguelike 19:33:16 a roguelike that needs a new source of unavoidable death? 19:33:22 OG17: for a start, monsters are unaware if you go down for the first time 19:33:35 OG17: read the philosophy section of the manual, please 19:34:11 how can you be killed in one hit by something that's unaware? 19:34:54 how can you be pushed into water by something that's unaware? 19:35:30 I'm saying people are occasionally killed in this way 19:36:19 if you're not stealthy, everyone can wake up right away 19:37:46 death seems a pretty harsh penalty for playing an inherently unstealthy sort of character 19:38:11 OG17: That's just obtuse. 19:38:23 I rather think we've talked the topic to death now, no? 19:38:32 I guess! 19:38:49 due: no 19:38:55 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 19:38:56 I thought the point of ##crawl-dev was to keep subjects which are talked to death (like stair instadeaths) and easily exasperated people (like dpeg) strictly separated 19:39:06 sorear: That was exactyl my point. 19:50:36 -!- syllogism has quit [] 20:06:45 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:15:23 -!- valrus_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:31:01 -!- Siber has joined ##crawl-dev 20:33:59 -!- Siber2 has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:39:23 -!- casmith789 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:38:32 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:25:27 * greensnark mews. 22:25:41 !tell dpeg extra works for floating vaults as well. 22:25:41 greensnark: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 22:25:42 greensnark: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 22:26:23 !tell Keskitalo Time to nerf GDR again yet? :) 22:26:23 greensnark: OK, I'll let Keskitalo know. 22:31:56 -!- m1nced has joined ##crawl-dev 23:10:39 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 23:15:36 -!- m1nced has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:15:59 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:16:39 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 23:48:07 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection]