00:22:17 -!- mspang has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:23:03 -!- mspang has joined ##crawl-dev 00:33:45 -!- hashc has joined ##crawl-dev 00:36:20 -!- stabwound has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 00:36:55 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 00:41:02 -!- jarpiain has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:41:08 -!- jarpiain has joined ##crawl-dev 00:41:45 -!- hashc has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:42:58 -!- hashc has joined ##crawl-dev 00:59:32 -!- valrus_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:08:10 -!- Kurper_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:23:53 noom (L27 MDIE) ASSERT(probe != attack_constraints.connection_constraints->end()) in 'mon-abil.cc' at line 1569 failed. (Coc:1) 02:05:43 -!- felirx has joined ##crawl-dev 02:06:55 Bug w/ autopickup of food chunks (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2840) by djnrempel 02:15:49 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 02:18:48 morning 02:20:14 !seen felirx 02:20:15 I last saw felirx at Tue Nov 16 08:05:43 2010 UTC (14m 31s ago) joining the channel. 02:20:59 felirx: you should probably wait before adding tiles to the skill menu. I'm going to rewrite most of it. 02:30:29 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:32:55 so, the skill menu needs some rewriting. Should I make a SkillMenu class derived of Menu? 02:43:26 * sorear sees galehar's last post 02:43:39 it's awesome that we have such a multinational group here 02:44:04 :) 02:44:42 yes, that's why I thought it would be good to put location of devs on the wiki 02:45:21 btw, where are you from sorear? 02:46:29 USA 02:46:38 one of those stupid monolingual contries 02:47:06 (I'm in a border city, even) 02:47:17 well, you know, french aren't known for their linguistic skills either... 02:47:38 and when did you join the crawl dev team? 02:48:05 uh 02:48:47 if you want it to be exact, I can probably find the memo where dpeg drafted me somewhere in these two gigs of mail archives and IRC logs 02:49:05 but otherwise I'd search the git log 02:49:54 no need to be exact 02:50:05 just the year is enough 03:02:28 git log says patches starting early 2008, but first commit under your own name in october 2009. Does that look right to you? 03:11:01 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:20:12 yes 03:20:24 I didn't discover Crawl until late 2007 03:22:18 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 03:24:44 sorear: can you recommend a good c++ book? I lost mine a while back and I'm starting to miss it :( 03:29:40 I can't remember what I used 03:29:42 sorry 03:30:07 got specific questions? 03:31:34 no, it's just that I need some reference from time to time 03:32:01 well, I'll keep using www.cplusplus.com for now :) 03:32:21 that's a pretty good one 03:32:25 I used it a lot 03:32:37 more for the STL than for the language 03:34:37 I've got C++ in a nutshell 03:34:40 but I haven't really read it much. 03:35:18 hey due! 03:47:01 -!- monky has quit [Quit: hello] 04:09:34 Hi 04:10:17 hi ploog 04:16:36 galehar: use PrecisionMenu derivatives 04:16:56 for the skill menu? 04:17:06 I have Bjärnes C++ book and seen people recommend Accelerated C++ by Example 04:17:11 but that was like 4-5 years ago 04:17:12 yes 04:17:53 I'lll add multiselect support to precisionmenu today or tomorrow 04:18:01 but, needs a control scheme 04:18:15 ok. I don't need multiselect for skills anyway 04:18:40 what's better about PrecisionMenu over Menu? 04:19:10 you have full control and can use dtnsbxfg updownleftright for selection 04:19:12 and mouse on tiles 04:19:45 ok, I'll try that 04:20:10 felirx: you aren't on the dev team page, are you? 04:20:23 probably missing 04:21:10 I can add you if you tell me about yourself :) 04:21:42 dpeg: do you reckon space to select, enter to confirm is the standard control scheme? 04:25:39 felirx: I'd say so, yes. 04:54:05 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:01:00 lecture on the history of scientific method 05:01:01 yawn 05:02:50 don't dismiss that, this is something so needed to a good part of the society 05:02:58 even if not to you personally 05:03:21 kilobyte is spot on 05:05:53 I mean, people ignore things that don't match their particular belief system, even if it is clearly shown to be wrong 05:06:45 a nice example: the Bible does not say that there is only one god -- in fact, it does say that other gods do indeed exist, and you're not supposed to worship them more than Yahveh or he'll smite your ass 05:07:24 so even without any outside research and accepting only that scripture literally, the popular beliefs are wrong :p 05:08:01 but well, let's return to Crawl 05:08:15 should autopickup of food work in lich form? 05:08:54 kilobyte: I don't really know. 05:09:02 somehow, potions of healing do get picked up, but not food 05:10:22 there are two cases: an early (well, V:8 time) character who won't be in lich form except when really needed due to fear of miscasts, and a Zig runner with no rMut 05:12:18 ok, if you don't have an opinion, let's move on 05:12:50 don't know if there's any real use for food after you can lichform 05:12:58 other than maybe clearing angel levels 05:14:05 recasting it every time is tedious, and dangerous with low skills 05:14:51 do you still get the necro bonus in form? 05:15:13 yes, but it affects only duration but not success chance 05:15:27 of course, necro miscasts are mostly neutered while undead 05:15:44 before you could always do extend to alleviate that 05:15:51 but now that amnesia is finite 05:16:09 glow and 5 spell slots, but that's a way 05:23:55 kilobyte: tmut miscasts are not neutered much though 05:25:39 found an actual use for !oBrilliance 05:25:55 ice stormed vault8 entrance as naga with potion power 05:28:05 felirx: yay, sounds awesome 05:28:31 ??tmut miscast 05:28:32 I don't have a page labeled tmut_miscast in my learndb. 05:29:25 ??transmutation miscast 05:29:25 transmutations miscast[1/1]: By severity: 1: 1-11 damage or random uselessness. 2: 3-25 damage, 0-18 glow, paralysis, or confusion. 3: 3-20 dmg AND 0-34 glow, 5-27 dmg AND delete mutation, 5-27 dmg AND 1-2 bad mutations. 05:30:45 paralysis from miscasting Necromutation almost killed me once, confusion is handled by Ashenzari, glow is not as bad as when alive 05:31:04 not sure if those mutation changes disregard lich form 05:31:14 bad mutations at least do 05:31:18 delete mutation n oclue 05:31:35 they do? Beh, nasty. 05:31:46 err they do not 05:31:48 inconsistent with monster polymorph other 05:31:49 work as in 05:31:56 just rots 05:32:11 but one game I went red glow due to lich form miscast in human form 05:32:16 result: teleportitis 2 05:32:50 same here, but just casted it again... 11 points of rot 05:33:18 which is nasty but nowhere close to actual bad mutations 05:34:36 the armor corrosion isn't fun 05:34:58 though imo it's way too rare 05:35:31 staying in lich form costs some serious mana as well... with Ashenzari and no means of channeling (low Evo, can't wield staff) I hardly had mana to cast actual damage spells 05:35:53 my current buff streak takes 20 mana 05:35:59 switching to Makhleb fixed this 05:36:06 dmls, fly, haste, swift 05:36:08 who uses damage spells anyway 05:36:32 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 05:37:02 and ozo's 05:37:21 umm... there hasn't been a single Zig winner using mostly melee 05:38:26 you try meleeing 20 pandelords at the same time! 05:38:31 one or two np 05:38:40 fighting several fiends in melee makes you need to run... or actually cast even a lowly Freezing Cloud which does them in 3-4 rounds 05:40:41 my current game is saved at a Zig entrance... I'm wondering whether to go in or to stash first, but then, without distortion getting out of Pan is a loooong trek and there's just one Zig in the dungeon so if I fail that I'd have to run Pan again 05:40:59 never been in one before, too 05:41:14 1-~20 is quite a walk in the park if you can storm or similar 05:41:43 I probably should nerf Tornado first, the current version feels like cheating 05:41:45 and have mana regen available in some form of course 05:41:51 but then, it is still weaker than storm 05:42:08 felirx: Makhleb only 05:42:17 might be enough 05:42:28 haven't tried makhleb yet 05:42:51 I'm wondering on my current game if I keep on with kiku or swap to makhleb at some point 05:44:00 what's the use of Kiku in Pan? Once you have dealt with wrath and can Necromutate again, that is. 05:44:18 spam corpses 05:44:21 subliminate them 05:44:32 spma corpses, pray for torment while you're immune 05:44:43 those pretty much 05:45:28 damn, I forgot that btw 05:45:32 should have tormented vault 8 05:45:47 then again, I'm at *** 05:46:30 torment... torment what? 05:46:45 V:8, Zot, but that's all 05:46:48 orc levels! 05:46:50 on zig 05:48:04 right... we should have D:1 zig levels too 05:48:21 lair level too 05:48:41 aka quite useless 05:48:51 you can probably torment angels but :D 05:50:58 even as a Zig n00b I shouldn't probably go there with an unbalanced spell 05:51:29 current Tornado is basically auto-Refrig for 5-6 turns while you do other stuff 05:51:44 that is probably... brutal 05:51:50 because refrig alone can clear zigs to a point 05:52:18 smaller radius but irresistable 05:52:53 I don't know what to balance it for... parity with storms or with regular spells 05:53:04 what level spell was it? 05:53:49 I'm sure about reducing radius from 6 to 5 and about fixing the work-through-walls-with-diminished-but-non-zero power bug (duh!) 05:53:58 currently 8... 05:54:18 I'd say it needs either a bump to 9 and a slight nerf, or being left at 8 with a thorough nerf 05:54:47 especially the duration... 30ish aut would be better than current 60ish 05:55:03 I need to finish this naga so I can try the new stuff on trunk 05:55:03 which would halve the damage if you don't recast 05:55:09 still at squareloss save ;( 05:55:21 that sucks! 05:57:06 oh... and Tornado relies on Euclidean in quite a few places. If I get to that shotgun magma idea, that would rely on it even more. 05:58:18 shotgun shooting would be totally broken in squarelos... 1.41 times bigger radius, 2 times bigger area affected, 1.41 times bigger damage to single targets diagonally 05:58:32 Literature research example: Feminist HCI: Taking stock and outlining an agenda for design 05:58:44 ... 05:59:19 ok, scratch my earlier comment. There's good scientific method advocacy and there's what you have to listen to. 05:59:27 ;) 05:59:38 this is just an example paper from a HCI conference 06:00:12 since Finnish bachelors papers are in essence Literature research on some field 06:03:34 I see kb is implementing as much LOS-dependent stuff as possible until rob gets back 06:03:35 :P 06:19:15 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 06:19:32 WinXP which is what any sane 06:19:35 Windows users use 06:19:42 why do I find that sentence so wrong 06:21:03 I use ME exclusively, it's more exciting 06:21:24 I know that's a lie TGWi 06:21:24 felirx: the existence of a sane Windows user? 06:21:38 combined with the preference to use winxp instead of 7 06:22:44 casmith789: oh? 06:23:20 TGWi: you're on IRC 06:23:33 ME users can't get on IRC without it crashing 06:23:38 trust me I'm crashing constantly 06:23:55 irc via ssh gateway on me! 06:25:47 7 vs XP: hugely bigger requirements (minimal 64MB vs 512MB, useful 512MB vs 4GB) -- which also means that even on a big machine, you always waste more resources just for the system itself, no important new features 06:26:23 so what would you pay that performance cost for? 06:26:44 on modern hardware, there's hardly a differencne 06:27:34 yeah, but it's always non-zero 06:27:56 it could be argued it is a price for something -- if you actually got something in return 06:28:31 the interface is tenfold better than xp 06:28:51 just the function of dragging an window to the top of screen to maximize it quickly becomes second nature 06:29:13 -!- MarvinPA has quit [] 06:29:15 how is that an improvement? 06:29:19 network configuration in xp is easier to work with 06:30:56 I don't maximize windows 06:31:03 things are windows because I want them windowed :| 06:31:13 -!- TGWi has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:31:54 felirx: what's the difference between pressing a button in the right top corner or pressing a key combination on the keyboard different from dragging a window? 06:32:22 takes a slightly more precise but shorter movement 06:32:36 just a matter of taste 06:33:02 (the fact that I have 6gb ram does contribute somewhat) 06:33:11 half of that would be wasted on non64 xp 06:34:03 oooh... and any Windows 64 bit: what do you say about that tiny detail of not being able to use any unsigned drivers? 06:34:16 including key parts like openvpn 06:45:36 not being able to use? 06:49:06 did they add an override? At least a few years ago you couldn't, both on xp64 and vista64. 06:49:27 to my knowledge, you can just hit install anyway 06:49:35 never had trouble at least 06:49:45 since ati drivers are never signed 06:50:26 * due hits install like THAT. 06:50:29 that was the case on xp32 and vista/7 32 -- there's a big dialog with lots of ALL-UPPERCASE text even on the button you need to press, but you can go forward 06:51:07 I don't use Windows outside of a virtual machine these days, so I admit I don't know if it works in 7/64 06:51:28 only real reason I'm stuck on windows is... trumpetroll... the games 06:51:46 felirx: but you don't need windows for Crawl! 06:52:07 playing only crawl on a machine like this is kinda overkill! 06:52:24 dual boot? 06:52:37 no point 06:53:26 heck, if I dual boot my phone (maemo / meego / bare-bones attempts of native Debian), I guess you can do that on a desktop too 06:54:51 heard on SA "I actually don't think there's any reason to ever play Trolls over Felids right now. " 06:55:50 hp? regen? actual claws? 06:56:40 item usage? 06:56:42 wands? 7/8 slots for resists/randarts instead of just 3? 06:57:22 yes I didn't mean to imply he had a point 06:58:26 I don't deny there are balance problems for some types of players 06:59:12 but I'd say that for newbies, trolls are easier 06:59:42 !apt fe 06:59:43 Could not understand "fe" 07:00:15 I was afraid about speedrunners -- but spriggans still rule since you need to actually do some damage here and there, and if you're seriously underpowered like you are during a speedrun you either stab or have to run 07:00:38 felid conjurers are probably way too easy, though 07:02:06 could use an aptitude nerf, for example -- -1 for conj and all elements is not that bad 07:04:54 there are many balance problems, but I don't think input from SA is really relevant (though better than none) 07:05:21 goons should always be taken with a grain of salt 07:05:25 like "Chei -- so much more powerful than any other god" 07:05:27 !lg * t win s=god 07:05:28 321 games for * (t win): 52x Okawaru, 45x Makhleb, 36x Kikubaaqudgha, 33x Vehumet, 28x The Shining One, 27x Sif Muna, 18x Jiyva, 18x Trog, 18x , 16x Nemelex Xobeh, 6x Zin, 5x Yredelemnul, 5x Elyvilon, 5x Fedhas, 4x Lugonu, 3x Cheibriados, 1x Beogh, 1x Xom 07:07:57 I consider for example returning the hp from Fighting nerf -- 211 hp with xl 27 Fighting 27 means you don't need to use lives 07:09:39 in my current game, the closest shaves were paralysis next to a group of skeletal warriors and yaktaurs (-> 7 -> 4 hp) and Antaeus with a potion of might (-> 21 hp in a single round!) 07:10:27 I have a pretty record somewhere where I drop from full health to dead in one turn versus an ancient lich <3 07:11:04 oh sorry, forgot about round 2 with Antaeus where I did actually die... but before, it was Boris in some mid-D 07:11:08 !lm . type=death 07:11:09 1. [2010-11-16] KiloByte the Conqueror (L27 FeAE) killed from afar by Antaeus (Coc:7) 07:11:11 !lm . type=death -2 07:11:11 Index out of range: -2 07:11:21 ah, before death milestones were added 07:11:44 felirx: what race? 07:12:01 on the other hand, this hp may be a result of Ashenzari's brokenness 07:12:12 !lg char=mfcr 07:12:12 1. felirx the Merfolkian Porcupine (L22 MfCr), worshipper of Fedhas, demolished by an Ice Fiend (summoned by an ancient lich) on Crypt:5 on 2010-06-30, with 290865 points after 118036 turns and 13:18:12. 07:12:16 that one 07:12:49 !log felirx char=mfcr 07:12:49 1. felirx, XL22 MfCr, T:118036: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/felirx/morgue-felirx-20100630-190031.txt 07:15:31 ah, paralyzed 07:15:54 lich at melee range, cast haste 07:15:57 then fun stuff happened 07:16:02 (my haste) 07:16:16 lich spawns all that crap and my mfcr blows up :) 07:16:43 paralysis instantly annihilates dodging chars 07:17:06 since your EV goes to 0 (plus artefacts/phase shift) 07:17:53 unless you're say, an troll, with single digit EV already (wrt those SA guys) 07:19:21 that char cleared elf7 at some level 18 ;) 07:20:23 I see my ghost 07:28:56 [14:12] <+kilobyte> on the other hand, this hp may be a result of Ashenzari's brokenness 07:28:59 what do you mean? 07:29:27 do you think reskilling should be nerfed? 07:29:56 I perhaps said that too harshly 07:30:48 it's about having more Fighting than you would normally have... but then, messing with disabling skills can have the same effect 07:31:34 so this problem affects Ashenzari no more than throttling skills by more than 1/4 07:31:52 since _disabled_ weapon trains as fast as enabled Fighting normally 07:33:40 so if we want to allow people to have more control over their skills, squishy chars with lots of Fighting become more of an issue 07:35:48 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 07:36:14 ok 07:36:33 so fighting is now too easy to raise 07:37:10 I was already thinking of adding an 1.3 higher cost to it in reskilling (to match the 1.3 base cost of spellcasting) 07:38:07 spellcasting costs more in all cases 07:38:28 yes, so no need to touch it 07:38:34 perhaps we could make the hp gains to fighting scale with your race? 07:38:51 this would nerf spriggans and boost trolls/ogres 07:38:52 good idea 07:39:25 so squishy chars stays squishy even if they train or reskill fighting very high 07:39:56 makes stuff like DeBe less viable, which may be a concern 07:40:19 or not 07:50:04 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 07:55:35 -!- timecircuits has quit [Quit: timecircuits] 08:14:37 -!- MarvinPA|2 has joined ##crawl-dev 08:15:21 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:36:52 -!- Zao has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:38:59 -!- Zao has joined ##crawl-dev 09:08:54 i really hate the idea of changing around the way other stuff works just because reskilling doesn't work cleanly :| 09:18:48 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 09:19:26 is there a reason that the fighting bonus is additive instead of multiplicitive? It'd make "low-hp race" a lot more relevant 09:19:47 max-fighting cat has thirty less hp than a max-fighting human 09:20:05 -!- MarvinPA|2 has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:20:42 fifty rather, spriggans are thirty less 09:21:03 it's still well over 200 09:31:17 not sure why you'd want special racial rules instead 09:36:33 -!- MarvinPA|2 has joined ##crawl-dev 09:37:15 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:47:21 yay got rid of my naga 09:47:27 tornado abuse time I think 09:50:51 hmm, cdo kicks me back to game menu if i try to hit % show aptitudes 09:56:30 when? 09:56:49 pick play, hit % 09:56:51 back to game menu 09:57:02 damn 09:57:25 it worked when I tested it :( 09:57:28 does not work locally either 10:03:43 newgame.cc:936 is the source of crash 10:08:58 I think I know 10:09:17 I'll fix it tonight 10:12:48 mmmm, HeAE, FeAE or something original 10:26:42 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 10:28:43 -!- MarvinPA|2 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:28:53 -!- MarvinPA|2 has joined ##crawl-dev 10:31:20 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:33:59 03dolorous * rf158233c6557 10/crawl-ref/source/fight.cc: Add formatting fixes. 10:34:00 03dolorous * rd06460797f38 10/crawl-ref/source/fight.cc: Remove obsolete comment. 10:34:02 03dolorous * re3baefbcea3c 10/crawl-ref/source/fight.cc: Remove redundant code banning tail-slaps and pseudopod-slaps in 10:34:04 03dolorous * rdb6096877c7e 10/crawl-ref/source/player.cc: Fix more inconsistencies with player transformations. 10:49:21 -hi 10:53:03 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 10:53:23 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 10:53:26 Eronarn rallying against the reskilling as ever, I see. Even if the problem is not at all with reskilling. 11:01:17 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 11:01:50 -!- MarvinPA|2 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:16:40 dpeg: skills have problems, but reskilling is focusing on making changes related to reskilling, and fixes to actual problems are just incidental 11:18:08 Well, yeah, it brings some current problems into the light. And that's good. 11:18:18 I assume almost any new feature does that 11:19:50 Eronarn: reskilling highlights problems, it does not at all make them. 11:19:56 galehar: often, yes. 11:20:56 dpeg: what about OG17's question? i'm interested too 11:21:13 galehar: typically, X feature doesn't work with existing feature Y means a lot more modification to X than to Y - but a lot of the proposed ways of fixing reskilling are more about Y 11:21:31 upsy: what was OG17's question? I' 11:21:38 ve been away for two hours. 11:21:59 why is fighting hp is additive not multiplicative 11:22:03 -is 11:22:04 this would be fine if Y were something compartmentalized, but 'change the way fighting works for all races' is pretty damn major 11:22:07 Eronarn: so far, untraining (by deselecting a skill) has been modified 11:22:29 this is not directly related to reskilling but rather to victory dancing 11:22:40 upsy: ah, I see 11:22:51 I recall that changing this was dicussed once, but for some reason nothing happened 11:22:52 (i am not against changing the way fighting works, mind you, but i think it should be tackled in its own right and not because reskilling will be broken given the status quo) 11:23:10 We've talked about the way squishy races get only slightly less hp than buff ones when they raise fighting very high 11:23:31 galehar: yes, which feels strange 11:23:49 galehar: I guess MP gain from Spc or Inv is uniform across species? 11:23:55 galehar: this generally isn't a problem though because it's very hard to get it that high due to apts, imperfect training, squishy races having less melee opportunities, etc. 11:24:22 Eronarn: everyone can grind up Fighting in the extended endgame though. 11:24:26 Eronarn: well, we can nerf reskilling to fighting, that's easy. But it wouldn't really address the problem that fighting just gives too much hp to frail races. So we address directly the real problem. 11:24:33 yes 11:24:43 dpeg: we shouldn't rebalance around extended endgame :| 11:24:49 And if we want species to look different also very late (which we do), then we should address it. 11:24:56 galehar: why do you think it gives too much HP to frail races, apart from ash reskilling? 11:25:03 Eronarn: you just said that a Fighting nerf will not hit normal games. 11:25:31 as kilobyte said, we the increased effect of skill disabling, it's now easier to raise fighting 11:25:34 dpeg: ...no i didn't, i said that in normal games this isn't an issue because fighting doesn't get to near max for most characters 11:26:13 if you suddenly make fighting worse for a lot of races, it will affect them at all levels of fighting skill 11:26:42 Eronarn: we didn't even discuss yet how to make Fighting worse... 11:27:31 [14:38] <+kilobyte> perhaps we could make the hp gains to fighting scale with your race? 11:29:10 galehar: currently, it is additive? 11:29:20 og17 said so 11:29:21 I don't know why race would be considered 11:29:29 I haven't looked at the code yet 11:29:33 instead of making it some modifier off of different racial base HP 11:29:35 ??fighting 11:29:36 fighting[1/1]: The Fighting skill gives you a bonus to accuracy and damage in melee, and improves your hit points by (Fighting * XL) / 5. 11:30:04 OG17: if we say "Fighting gives a multiplicative HP boost", then that'd be implicitly a species-based effect 11:30:11 Crawl Forum? (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2841) by djnrempel 11:30:33 if that's what he meant by that 11:30:45 took it as meaning different races would have different modifiers 11:30:58 OG17: no, we wouldn't want that 11:31:30 no race differenciation? why not? 11:32:01 also eronarn cats have like 66 base hp at 27 and tack on 145 more from max fighting, that's sort of an indication that something's goofy 11:32:12 galehar: instead of pulling species modifiers out of our hats, we should use what's already there: innate base HP. 11:32:34 oh ok 11:32:35 sure 11:32:40 galehar: we could say that Fighting 27 should be "3 times base HP". 11:32:43 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:33:05 and maybe not linear 11:33:58 well, a lot of skills have a decreasing effect at high level. But do we really want to keep it that way? 11:34:45 anyway, I have to go 11:34:49 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: bye] 11:46:46 !tell kilobyte I am a DSVM^Ash, with two cursed rings. I just found a ring of hunger on the ground, and it got identified. Later, I found a randart ring, which got not identification at all. Is this a bug? It turned out to have hunger as base type. 11:46:47 dpeg: OK, I'll let kilobyte know. 11:48:38 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 12:00:02 !tell galehar Perhaps we should make the reskilling interface more playful: let players try around for donating skill; select with Enter. 12:00:02 dpeg: OK, I'll let galehar know. 12:07:51 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 12:15:29 valrus: hi! 12:21:41 !tell kilobyte I just enchant an uncursed ice dragon hide to an armour (same DSVM^Ash). Despite no curses being involved, I got "Ash preserves the curse." Bug? 12:21:41 dpeg: OK, I'll let kilobyte know. 12:23:53 -!- valrus_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:26:33 -!- monky has joined ##crawl-dev 12:33:25 what stuff has ENCH_INSANE? anything? 12:36:06 also, how would people feel about a patch that did this: BrWpn => Breath, curare applies ENCH_BREATH or whatever it's called, no shouting or berserking while out of breath 12:36:46 Eronarn: sounds good, but perhaps best to ask around more, or file at Mantis 12:37:01 yes, sure, i won't do it until after recite anyways 12:37:11 (the suggestion was made to make recite use Breath) 12:37:53 ah, nice 12:38:09 Gotta love those ice caves and their helmets of rCold. 12:39:57 -!- Kurper has joined ##crawl-dev 12:41:19 !tell kilobyte Sorry, I said something wrong in message ^-2: I wear a cursed amulet and a cursed ring, not two cursed rings. Does this explain why the randart ring didn't get identified? Some rings definitely did... 12:41:19 dpeg: OK, I'll let kilobyte know. 12:41:47 ash IDing is weird right now 12:42:02 i haven't pinpointed exactly what makes it feel weird, but to me it's actually more annoying than nothing identifying 12:42:32 i think i'd prefer that he just fully ID everything you see - it's not that big of a perk and is so much cleaner on the interface 12:44:25 Hello hello 12:44:25 Cryp71c: You have 3 messages. Use !messages to read them. 12:44:28 !message 12:44:29 !messages 12:44:29 (1/3) dpeg said (3d 5h 46m 49s ago): DS mutation bone plates gives +X AC, +X SH. Isn't the latter negligible after the SH modification (it works the same but sorear inflated the numbers to be comparable with AC and EV). 12:44:35 dpeg: for recite: one thing i am changing about this, is its inability to be used on unintelligent monsters. because for example: ugly things are intelligence animal, zombies are intelligence plant, all Gs except GOB and great orb of eyes are intelligence plant 12:44:43 !messages 12:44:43 (1/2) dpegran said (3d 4h 21m 41s ago): Just got DS guardian level 3 on D:10, XL 11. That's too early, I assume :) Either we make sure the higher guardians come later, or we scale the guardians to depth. 12:44:53 however, one obviously doesn't want to be able to recite to rats 12:44:57 !messages 12:44:57 (1/1) dpeg said (2d 22h 28m 50s ago): Sorry for the onslaught of messages. You can play the Guardian slightly unfun by running around with monsters on your heel, hoping that the trigger kicks in and you get that demon. Perhaps we can think of an improvement. 12:45:48 dpeg, sorry, just got your messages (obviously) I can scale up the bone plates to reflect the (now inflated) value of SH, do you know by about what factor SH rating was scaled? 12:45:49 the way i am splitting it, there are recites flavored against unclean/sickening/etc., chaotic, undead, heretics. The heretic one is similar to the old recite - requires an intelligent enemy who doesn't worship a good god 12:46:33 the question is, what about something like a komodo dragon? it is unclean according to Zin, but should reciting scripture harm it, if that same scripture harms a zombie or something? 12:47:47 Eronarn: I think the distinction between identifying only stuff you cannot use right now (due to curses) and identifying more is meaningful and fun. 12:48:05 i can see it going either way - it feels 'right' to be able to pray against Gs to harm them, even if they cannot understand you, but not so much in the case of natural creatures (which zin may hate, but i don't think he'd care enough about to smite) 12:48:27 Eronarn: do you think one can recite to zombies? 12:49:09 dpeg: this is a common trope, yes - often called to "turn undead", by presenting your holy symbol and praying at them 12:49:44 I see, that's a different sort of recite, I guess. 12:49:57 not about telling people their wrongs (and kind of expecting them to change...) 12:51:04 dpeg: oh, that is still in - just only on things that can right their wrongs (and this already was the case; you could recite at demons, but they're immune to conversion to zin) 12:51:49 the idea i am going for with this revamp is, if you can convert them, you try. if you can't, you just damn / smite/ curse them in the name of Zin. 12:52:59 Eronarn: I see... That will probably work well, just two observations: it should be different from TSO smiting; and there should be something that prevents players from smiting everything to death (and getting piety for it :) 12:53:18 yes, hence the brwpn - was looking for a timeout anyways, and that fits the bill nicely 12:53:39 it is also keeping the 3-turn delay, so it will not be a very efficient thing to use during a protracted fight, though probably a good opener 12:53:44 Cryp71c: no, I don't really know. :( 12:53:51 sorear: are you with us right now? 12:54:03 Eronarn: okay... 12:54:38 as for different from TSO smiting - i would actually be concerned more, right now, wth being too similar to Ely 12:54:53 the peak Zin recite effect atm = Ely's pacification 12:55:07 ? 12:55:11 pretty much directly (50% XP and all) 12:55:32 sorear: do you remember the formula when you changed SH numbers? 12:56:17 (whoah, random thing I just noticed: giant orange brains have open_doors) 12:56:20 Eronarn: ah, I wouldn't worry about that. For Ely, it's a reliable effect and the way to gain piety. This will be different with zin. 12:56:30 Eronarn: they're smart! 12:56:42 dpeg: i'm still planning a GOB race :) 12:56:59 with cause fear like the monster ability (rather than running, things cannot approach) 12:57:06 perhaps we really need unlockables for the freak species 12:57:07 dpeg: the old numbers were pretty meaningless, so I can't say there was a formula as such 12:57:11 achievements 12:57:39 sorear: let me say it like this: there's a DS mutation which gives AC+2 SH+2; AC+3 SH+3; AC+4 SH+4. 12:57:42 weren't bone plates introduced after the SH changes anyway? or am I confused? 12:57:51 This seems a bit lackluster now in the SH department -- how would you adjust the numbers? 12:58:01 elliptic: think so 12:58:09 elliptic: yes, but I am afraid they didn't take the SH change into account. 12:58:28 dpeg: those numbers seem fine to me, really - SH isn't as good as EV, but EV is pretty good 12:58:29 AC+4 and SH+4 isn't that weak; the bigger problem is that having SH 4 is just annoying if you aren't using a shield 12:58:38 elliptic: or would you say that AC+4 SH+4 is about equal to the other AC mutations? (Question is not rhetoric.) 12:59:37 it is probably weaker, but not by all that much IMO 12:59:41 elliptic, even without a shield, having the boney plates mutation will allow you to block without the cumbersomeness of a shield. 12:59:42 I forget what all the options are 12:59:44 ah, ok 12:59:49 but I still don't know how comparable it is, with regard to power. 12:59:50 * sorear defers to elliptic 12:59:50 Cryp71c: not very often at all, though 12:59:54 Eronarn, right. 13:00:07 cryp71c: you won't block much with 4 SH, and shield skill gets trained, which is strange 13:00:24 felids can't wear nothing at all except rings and amulet? 13:00:27 perhaps it should just mean you always count as equipped with a buckler 13:00:34 elliptic, yeah I saw that discrepency once, I can't remember whether or not I adjusted the performance of boney plates to compensate for that. 13:00:35 and if you do equip a shield, it gets +X 13:00:48 Eronarn: I just wondered if there could be a DS mutation that makes you want to go two-hander... 13:01:17 dpeg: well, the issue is that you need some double digit number of SH to be really noticeable/good, but you won't get that without actually wearing a shield or giving a huge boost that would break if you did wear a shield 13:01:54 so: make it give you a 'virtual' shield if you ahve none equipped, or a real one that blocks wearing a shield (but this would remove resistances, which may annoy some players) 13:02:34 Eronarn, what if the shield mutation scales better than a normal shield, since you're potentially losing a shield brand and/or a randart's shield properties? 13:03:36 maybe increase it to SH 12 or something like that at max mutation, but make it do nothing SH-wise if you are using a shield 13:04:01 elliptic: i'd just have it count as buckler/shield/large shield, with no casting penalty 13:04:18 giving people a free large shield is broken, come on 13:04:34 a free large shield with a 2-handed weapon, at that, unless you are changing that 13:05:10 i think having it be SH, unless you actually use a shield, isn't gonna be intuitive 13:05:29 i guess the question to ask would be: is this meant to be something that replaces the need for a shield, or something that makes using a shield better, or both 13:05:33 seems much simpler than what you are suggesting 13:05:56 I guess the solution is to change the formula to make small amounts of sh more noticable 13:06:22 This is a tier1 mutation by the way 13:06:39 I don't really know.... but there should be at least one decent mutation around SH, perhaps even two. 13:06:51 comparable mutations give small ac bonuses and 1 resistance (some even also give -1 ev to help balance) 13:07:06 the largest +ac only gives +9 ac, the largest +ac is (I believe) +12 ac -4 ev 13:08:11 cryp71c: right, this is why I don't think the mutation is *that* weak as stands 13:09:05 what about: bone plates 3 gives you a buckler, or +4 SH, whichever would boost your shield more; the mut message is (+4 AC, +4 SH, Buckler); on the equip screen you see it as such if you aren't wielding a shield 13:09:39 could move that down to plates 1, or make it 1/3 / 2/3 of a buckler 13:12:32 Eronarn, I think that could work, and certainly empower the mutation, but I think accomodating that complex of a system, where a mutation is replacing a slot in a virtual (and overridable sense, in the case of actually equipping a regular shield), might be less than necessary. 13:12:46 Perhaps keeping the mutation as is, and perhaps remove the training of shields as a result is the most prudent course. 13:13:17 We wanted this mutation to encourage shield usage... which it kind of does, I guess. 13:13:18 Cryp71c: my concern with that is that it's not that useful unless you revise the formula, and we already have a lot of formulas that need revising 13:14:41 Hrm, that's a good point dpeg, and yeah..certainly later on the block value is insignificant, since its so low. 13:16:24 What about +2, +4, +6, no training and be done with it? 13:17:10 Perhaps its not so bad in its current form? Early on (before a shield (or a buckler, if you're being picky or are casting)) you'll block and start to build shield skill, and after you find a buckler, you still get the +4 from the mutation...and if you don't end up chosing to use a shield, the +4 is there but effectively useless since you'll hardly ever block anything anwyays... 13:17:24 ??buckler 13:17:25 buckler[1/1]: Any character who isn't using a 2-handed weapon or unarmed combat should get one of these (and upgrade to a larger shield when skill gets high enough). 13:17:28 ??shield 13:17:28 shield[1/7]: In crawl, shields don't affect your ac, they impair your ev by a bit and give you blocking. Blocking allows you to block all damage from some attacks, this includes some spells, arrows, and melee. Using a shield also prevents you from using your off hand for {auxiliary unarmed} attacks and slows your attack speed (both melee and ranged (0.7)). 13:17:51 base block value of a buckler is what, 2? 13:18:05 Cryp71c: okay then 13:18:26 ??shield[2] 13:18:26 shield[2/7]: Shields can be enchanted to +3. Each enchantment increases the shielding by 1. Bucklers (5 SH, -1 EV); Shields (8 SH, -3 EV); Large Shield (13 SH, -5 EV). Every level of shield skill increases the shielding by 1/20 of the base shield value. You also get an effective SH bonus based on your str, str/dex avg, or dex (for large, regular, buckler). 13:18:32 Eronarn, there, 5 13:19:01 cryp71c: you *don't* block with the mutation in its current form, though 13:19:05 +2 SH is useless 13:20:04 Cryp71c: so, what about making it +2/+4/+6 *base* SH, no AC 13:20:22 level 2 - slightly worse than a free buckler, or make a buckler slightly better than a shield 13:20:43 Eronarn: this would _force_ players into shields, though... 13:21:03 dpeg: it would force them to train shield skill if they want to use their plates effectively. I see no problem at all with this 13:21:07 since that's how the unarmed-affecting muts work 13:21:19 ah, I see 13:21:22 yes, that's okay 13:21:55 But what to write in the ^ screen? 13:21:57 Eronarn, so you're saying +2/+4/+6 base SH, with the mutation scaling with shield skill? 13:22:15 eronarn: 2/4/6 sounds like way too much 13:23:08 elliptic: yeah it might be better at 1/2/4 or something 13:23:14 or 2/3/4 13:23:23 2/3/4 and scales with shield skill could be fine. 13:23:34 brb 13:24:18 i think the real problem there is large shields 13:24:23 2/3/4 might be reasonable, yeah 13:24:36 eronarn: ? 13:24:41 2/4/5 would be fine with a shield (shield => large shield); the question is how much does it break if you go large shield => large shield and a half 13:25:08 it won't break, shields are useless against many attacks 13:25:26 no worse than large shield + TSO and nobody complains about that 13:25:26 i expect it to be fine, but if it ended up being too powerful, it would be on the high end of the scale 13:25:57 2 might be too low at start actually since it's less than half a buckler 13:25:58 dunno, free buckler with your exec axe sounds plenty powerful to me 13:25:59 large shields are 15 base now. 6 is too much? 13:26:08 sorear: 15+6 might be 13:26:32 sorear: is that learndb entry out of date, then? 13:27:07 (if large shields are 15, why does it go 5/8/15 instead of 5/10/15? :( ) 13:28:11 is there a max possible stealth? 13:28:45 the code uses 1000 if the skill is over 27 13:28:45 valrus_: sure 13:29:06 i don't know what it is, but it's determined by racial factors, randart properties, etc. and you can only have so many of those 13:29:21 probably pretty ridiculously high if you scum and get 40+ dex or whatever 13:29:21 yeah 13:30:08 looks like large shield is 13 13:31:01 How significant is the SH bonus baed on str? 13:31:02 based* 13:31:12 er, str/dex 13:31:13 rather. 13:31:19 quite significant 13:31:22 much larger than weapon weighting 13:31:49 So then what about 2/3/4 and some str/dex? 13:32:16 Cryp71c: leave the Dex/Str to players 13:32:30 Cryp71c: i would actually say make the mutation just SH, nothing else 13:32:46 because that way you can have the largest boost to SH plausible for its power level 13:32:47 Yeah, just tossing that idea out. 13:33:27 also, i'd say for this - use the higher of str or dex in the weighting 13:33:58 as far as I can see, str/dex don't interact with base shield value 13:34:10 they are an additive term, not a multiplier 13:34:21 oh, weird 13:34:28 base just gets multiplied by skills and racial bonus 13:35:01 then probably just have this mutation add on after everything else, not have a stat weighting, but do use skills 13:35:15 the formula is sort of crazy 13:35:22 and just boost the values a bit to make up for no stat weighting 13:35:41 elliptic: you should add it to the list for the melee combat rewrite stuff 13:50:27 at some point I'd also like to clean up and expand the mutation system, though I don't have any definite plans yet 13:54:33 clean up is always good, expansion needs thought :) 13:55:03 yeah, I had a couple ideas, nothing well developed enough to even run by the other devs, let alone anything that's definitely on the planning board. 13:56:10 dpeg, I've always liked the concept of a tree-based mutation scheme, where facets exist separate of one another, but have pre-requisite facets (so essentially two facets of mutations could be viewed as an overall facet), though IDK if that really fits the scheme of DS mutations. 13:56:18 Just an idea I've liked. 13:57:40 Cryp71c: sure... but we can take as much time as we want to grow that tree. 13:58:36 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 13:59:09 sounds like ADOM talents 14:00:19 valrus_: could players influence these? 14:01:28 valrus_: how's the TimeStep going along? 14:01:53 afternevening 14:02:05 Hi 14:03:07 valrus, I've never played ADOM, though a tree-based scheme is so general I'm sure its likely to exist in an incredibly large number of games. 14:03:24 I personall had derived it from skill trees of Diablo 2 and Tech trees of Civ 5 14:03:31 s/personall/personally* 14:05:48 Cryp71c: the point in all of these that players choose 14:05:54 Crawlers cannot choose their mutations. 14:06:43 dpeg, right, that's one of the things obviously different..and the biggest complication it introduces is that there must be sufficient facet paths so as to still provide variability between DS games. 14:08:01 dpeg, I think the best combination of a tree based mutation scheme uses the same facets as we currently have, but if you have a particular combination of facets, it alters the last mutation or two of the higher tier mutation. 14:08:56 Say for instance the boney plates mutation, and the ice facet which ends in passive freeze damage on hit. In the absence of each, they function exactly as they do right now, but for players who happen to get both facets, instead of passive freeze damage on hit, their boney shield becomes an icy shield, causing damage on blocks. 14:09:15 Though again, all brainstorming of course, just ideas. 14:09:33 combining facets sounds slick 14:09:46 This complicated system also introduces new balance concerns. One of the hurtles to consider. 14:11:25 !hs multirobin sprint 14:11:27 9. multirobin the Spry (L10 FeTm), worshipper of Xom, blasted by a death drake (foul vapour) in Sprint (Sprint II: "The Violet Keep of Menkaure") on 2010-10-11, with 5662 points after 1779 turns and 0:15:18. 14:15:50 I just found Piercer :O 14:16:06 Piercer 14:16:07 ? 14:16:15 ??Piercer 14:16:16 piercer[1/1]: +2 +10 longbow of velocity, -2 EV 14:16:29 cannot use it :( 14:16:34 I have never seen that 14:16:44 is it new? or do I just not care that much 14:17:18 dpeg: why not? you'd have to give up one level of boundedness but that's not a big deal... 14:17:30 longbow isn't so attractive for a conj-user anyway though 14:17:36 elliptic: I am a conjurer :) 14:17:40 yeah 14:17:44 elliptic: then again, I could switch all my skills! 14:17:48 :) 14:17:53 FR: conjuration arrow to be used with a real bow. 14:18:08 :P 14:19:11 b - the ring of Reimbursement {MUT rElec rN+ AC+2 Int+4} 1008 gold 14:22:05 dpeg: sorry about not answering you earlier, I was having lunch 14:22:36 it's going alright, I'm trying to figure out how to make the noise happen when it ends 14:22:44 valrus_: sounds good 14:22:51 Gotta leave too, shops are closing soon. 14:23:02 I'd like to have a counter accumulate your normal noise 14:23:09 oh I see 14:23:26 next time :) 14:23:38 have a good... night? 14:25:33 it's dark here, yes.... as it should be 15:02:49 yay, always love squishing the last error and seeing it finish compiling 15:06:02 well, that's... weird 15:06:15 getting non-deterministic behavior 15:07:03 -!- syllogism has quit [] 15:09:42 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 15:19:43 -!- Vandal has quit [] 15:28:01 -!- galehar has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:28:25 03galehar * r8436c41f32b5 10/crawl-ref/source/newgame.cc: Fix crash in newgame when pressing % before making any choice. 15:29:50 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 15:29:56 re 15:29:57 galehar: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 15:30:03 !messages 15:30:04 (1/1) dpeg said (3h 30m 2s ago): Perhaps we should make the reskilling interface more playful: let players try around for donating skill; select with Enter. 15:31:20 dpeg: around? 15:33:33 !tell dpeg sure, good idea. But first, I'll refactor the interface to make it use a menu class. Then we'll talk about features. 15:33:33 galehar: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 15:56:09 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:59:34 if ((eligible_chaotic > 0) ^ (eligible_impure > 0) ^ (eligible_heretic > 0) ^ (eligible_unholy > 0) ^ (eligible_ally > 0)) 15:59:38 is this not doable? 16:00:09 i'm pretty sure my code is failing at this line 16:01:08 you know that ^ is xor, right? 16:01:08 okay, yeah, i can't, good to know 16:01:57 galehar: you know that i'm not a programmer, right? :) i know what xor is, but i don't use it often, so i didn't think of how it would resolve if chained like that 16:02:36 but I don't understand your logic. What are you trying to express? 16:02:47 xor is usually used to toggle flags 16:03:45 galehar: it's an alternate path in the code that only gets run if we found eligible monsters of only one type 16:04:28 ok, I get it 16:05:25 well then, it might be correct. I don't see what's wrong with it. 16:06:50 according to the interwebs xor will evaluate true if it's odd numbers like: true^true^true 16:07:33 oh right 16:07:43 which explains a lot of the weird buggy behavior i was getting with varying numbers of monsters on screen 16:08:12 indeed :) 16:09:47 working now though, i need to neaten up the prompt a bit but now the only thing remaining i believe is the actual recite effects themselves 16:10:46 so, how are you changing it? 16:12:28 5 kinds of recite: anti-chaos, anti-impure, anti-unholy, anti-heretic, pro-ally. it only prompts you for eligible kinds of recitations. the recitations will follow a general pattern: for things so evil/etc. that they cannot be redeemed, bad things happen to them; for things that can be redeemed, Zin is more lenient and favors converting them 16:13:29 wow. interesting. 16:13:38 i thought zin didn't like allies 16:13:50 your not just tweaking the numbers :) 16:13:50 the chaos/impure/unholy recitations work on things such as zombies, i.e., they do not need to understand the recitation. the heretic and ally ones do require a non-confused, intelligent, etc. audience - the difference will be conveyed via flavor text/effects 16:13:59 no, it's a whole rewrite. the ability is pretty busted atm 16:14:14 oh, he doesn't like sentient allies 16:14:15 MarvinPA: zin actually gives you piety if your allies kill unclean things 16:14:38 so you'll be able to recite to spammals? :P 16:15:02 MarvinPA: he doesn't like your sentient allies *dying* :P 16:15:14 which is basically the same as not liking you having them 16:15:32 the recitation is an attempt to help with this: it only works on sentient allies, but will be fairly good 16:16:10 hm, what even lets you get sentient allies? 16:17:07 enslave, at the moment, and crusade. i tentatively would like to try converting via recite, but the ally related stuff is second priority to the anti-undead, etc. things 16:17:08 i can't think of anything other than enslavement, for zin 16:17:43 one difficulty with converting would be, this is obviously an effect that you don't want popcorn if your god doesn't like letting allies die 16:18:04 beogh 16:18:10 (zin is good for followers of beogh) 16:18:16 heh 16:18:18 and ring of charms (lol) 16:18:45 get an army of perma-allies with nemelex crusade then convert to zin 16:18:52 oh, another thing: it uses a count to determine just how chaotic, unholy, etc. something is 16:18:56 also, rupert farming 16:19:12 so allies = boost, holy allies = boost++, zin holy allies = boost+++ 16:19:47 i wonder if mennas farming would work to get a permanent holy ally 16:19:53 what is rupert farming 16:19:57 ??rupert farming 16:19:58 rupert farming[1/6]: Turn Rupert into a jelly, feed him items until he splits a bunch, polymorph the jellies into animals, use tame beasts on them, and then polymorph them into cool things. 16:20:10 ... 16:20:11 rupert farming <3 16:20:28 ??rupert farming[2 16:20:29 I don't have a page labeled rupert_farming2 in my learndb. 16:20:30 ??rupert farming[2] 16:20:30 okay that is so impractical it's worthless 16:20:30 rupert farming[2/6]: Foolproof! 16:20:32 ??rupert farming[3] 16:20:32 rupert farming[3/6]: < slyshy> Rupert farming, oh god, this is straight out of nethack 16:20:35 ??rupert farming[4] 16:20:35 rupert farming[4/6]: < BirdoPrey> rupert farming is the awesomest thing ive heardof 16:20:37 ??rupert farming[5] 16:20:37 rupert farming[5/6]: First one to pull this off gets a whole box of cookies. 16:20:39 ??rupert farming[6] 16:20:40 rupert farming[6/6]: Another method (courtesy of Vicht): Weapon/Wand of draining -> scroll of vulnerability -> polymorph other -> high-powered crusade card -> cigutovi's degeneration -> polymorph other. 16:20:47 hhahaha 16:24:18 so how's this sound as a decent formula to y'all: effect type is based on HD, max invo/piety hits up to HD 27, invo/piety contribute equally, random factor of up to +3 to the enemy's HD 16:24:49 effects scale, with something like say: >their HD, >their HD+5, >their HD+10 16:25:05 what has HD 27? that sounds pretty high 16:25:08 @??cerebov 16:25:08 Cerebov (05&) | Speed: 10 | HD: 21 | Health: 650 | AC/EV: 30/8 | Damage: 60 | Flags: 05demonic, see invisible, !sil | Res: 06magic(168), 05hellfire, 03poison | XP: 15000 | Sp: fire storm (8d16), iron shot (3d36), haste, greater demon. 16:25:12 mm 16:25:18 ??the royal jelly 16:25:18 the royal jelly[1/4]: Boss of the Slime Pits. Does not regenerate. Damage causes the creation of high-level Js such as acid blobs and azure jellies, which will never be on the other side of a wall. When killed, the level allows teleport control, and the loot chamber walls become transparent and diggable. 16:25:22 @??the royal jelly 16:25:22 royal jelly (08J) | Speed: 12 | HD: 21 | Health: 230 | AC/EV: 8/4 | Damage: 5008(acid:7d3), 3008(acid:7d3) | Flags: sense invisible | Res: 06magic(196), 03poison, 08acid+++, asphyx | XP: 15000. 16:25:30 i know there's something with mor ethan 21 16:25:31 @??killer klown 16:25:31 Killer Klown (13@) | Speed: 13 | HD: 20 | Health: 128-171 | AC/EV: 10/15 | Damage: 3012(klown) | Flags: see invisible, regen, !sil | Res: 06magic(160) | XP: 6829 | Sp: blink. 16:25:38 @??ancient lich 16:25:38 ancient lich (16L) | Speed: 10 | HD: 27 | Health: 81-130 | AC/EV: 20/10 | Damage: 2013(drain) | Flags: 07undead, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(504), 05fire, 02cold++, 10elec++, 03poison | XP: 10674 | Sp: b.cold (3d37), paralyse, greater demon, animate dead, iron shot (3d44), teleport self / b.draining (3d30), animate dead, summon undead, throw frost (3d13), crystal spear (3d48) / b.f.. 16:25:42 there you go 16:26:08 @??orb of fire 16:26:08 orb of fire (05*) | Speed: 15 | HD: 30 | Health: 150 | AC/EV: 20/20 | Flags: 11non-living, see invisible, lev, !sil | Res: 13magic(immune), 04hellfire+++, 02cold, 10elec++, 09poison+++ | XP: 11437 | Sp: b.fire (3d40), polymorph other, fireball (3d43). 16:26:09 yeah, so that would mean: at max piety + invo you have, say, a 50% chance to affect an ancient lich at all (and it would be the lowest-tier of effects) 16:26:12 @??the lernaean hydra 16:26:12 the Lernaean hydra (08D) | Speed: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 30 | Health: 150 | AC/EV: 0/5 | Damage: 18 per head | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded, regen | Res: 06magic(120), 03poison | Chunks: clean/none/unknown | XP: 7599. 16:26:14 so at max invoc and piety you'd be able to do what to ancient liches? presumably it'd be a fairly minor effect but definitely positive 16:26:37 though those wouldn't be very good at listening, unless anti-chaos is supposed to act like silver or something rather than words 16:26:56 the anti-undead effects are going to be things like making their flesh burn, or Zin tosses a smite at them 16:27:00 monky: oh that's a good point 16:27:14 i threw a check to not-permit non-living, but some non-living things, it might make sense since they aren't all golems 16:27:38 orbs of fire at least are hd 30 and chaotic 16:27:41 i dunno though it's probably okay if orbs aren't reciteable 16:28:09 i would say it's probably not a problem if zin's starting ability can't affect them, yeah :P 16:28:12 anti-chaos isn't exactly the same as silver, though i think orbs might actually be the only thing that will get hit by silver and not recite 16:28:19 incidentally how will all this work with imprison? 16:28:29 MarvinPA: fuck imprison 16:28:31 since that basically just recites at stuff 16:28:32 haha 16:29:02 right now i literally have it commented out because i don't want to fix it. but the recite function will still work, just some of the parameters changed 16:29:27 the imprison effect is kinda cool though 16:29:36 are the chaotic Gs recitable 16:29:51 monky: right now yes though there's some issues there 16:29:54 @??shining eye 16:29:54 shining eye (13G) | Speed: 7 | HD: 10 | Health: 39-71 | AC/EV: 3/1 | Flags: see invisible, lev, !sil | Res: 13magic(immune), asphyx | Chunks: 06mutagenic | XP: 546 | Sp: polymorph other. 16:29:57 @??rat 16:29:57 rat (07r) | Speed: 10 | HD: 1 | Health: 1-4 | AC/EV: 1/10 | Damage: 3 | Res: 06magic(1) | XP: 1. 16:30:06 both are low int, natural monsters 16:30:15 of them I imagine giant orange brains would be most notable 16:30:31 what i've done for now is turn off the low int, natural check 16:30:48 i think this will be safe, because the only thing most natural monsters are eligible for is the anti-heretic prayer, which separately checks int 16:30:59 however, there is the case of say: komodo dragons, which have an unclean attack 16:31:06 should you be able to hurt them with recite? 16:31:35 if not, it is going to be very hard to do this without specialcasing stuff 16:31:40 they're not flagged chaotic or anything are they? 16:32:09 MarvinPA: they are not chaotic, but they have AF_SICK or whatever as an attack, and anything with that brand (or rot, or steal, or steal food) is unclean 16:32:47 ah right 16:33:30 one possibility: specialcase really-actually-natural monsters, so that if you recite against them, they get a different effect list that's less supernatural and more 'it runs away from you' 16:34:15 natural holiness and animal intelligence? 16:35:50 hmmm i should specialcase silver statues, so that zin smites them so hard 16:36:59 monky: shadow dragons are natural + animal 16:37:33 zin doesn't consider them unclean, but they are evil 16:37:49 perhaps evil would be checked earlier 16:38:02 so anything with evil intent is regarded as intelligent 16:39:10 buwhuh, mummies are int plant 16:39:37 even the spellcasters? 16:39:43 the normal mummies 16:39:46 and snakes are int insect 16:39:52 mummies are like 16:39:58 plant, plant, intelligent 16:40:00 it's weird 16:40:11 they should all be plant I think 16:40:17 I guess checking undead/evil first would account for them as well 16:41:23 death drakes are natural/animal too hmm 16:41:46 komodo dragons are natural/insect (?!) 16:42:25 orange rats are natural/animal 16:42:43 why wouldn't death drakes/orange rats be natural/animal 16:42:53 (natural/insect for komodo is weird) 16:42:54 oh, so are ugly things, awesome 16:42:58 yes 16:43:00 of course they are 16:43:13 TGWi: i'm just talking from a perspective of this ability, i don't really care what they actually are 16:43:26 but i would like to be able to find a rule that works with a minimum of special casing + maximum of understanding 16:43:41 'natural is pretty straightforward 16:44:54 i think what might work is: rule out natural, but only for unclean, not for evilness or chaoticness; and make an exception for ugly things, which aren't 'really' natural 16:45:13 er, natural + insect/animal 16:47:12 giant mosquito, komodo dragon are gonna be the only cases where something that sickens isn't recitable 16:47:50 -!- timecircuits has joined ##crawl-dev 16:50:51 ??zin wrath 16:50:52 zin wrath[1/1]: Recite (either sleep, confusion or paralysis), removes a good mutation, makes you hungry or makes noise. 17:07:58 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.12/20101026210630]] 17:11:37 hhmm 17:11:45 if zin considers stealing food impure 17:11:51 he should probably consider vampirism impure 17:12:16 isn't vampirism evil? 17:12:25 yes but evil doesn't imply unclean 17:12:27 *vampiricism 17:12:43 "of vampires" 17:12:50 I'm pretty sure neither of those are real words 17:13:26 oh, skill_bump is cute 17:13:37 hmm? 17:13:44 return ((you.skills[skill] < 3) ? you.skills[skill] * 2 17:13:44 : you.skills[skill] + 3); 17:27:58 if (!imprisoned && one_chance_in(resist + 1)) 17:27:58 return (0); // nothing happens, whew! 17:28:01 ahahah i just noticed this 17:28:03 @??ogre 17:28:03 ogre (07O) | Speed: 10 | HD: 5 | Health: 17-39 | AC/EV: 1/6 | Damage: 17 | Res: 06magic(20) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 119. 17:28:25 recite against an ogre: 1 chance in 21 that you don't roll at 75% odds to haste it 17:28:57 how much invo 17:29:23 that might be fair at like -10 invo 17:29:26 that is at a recite failure against an ogre at any invo... to fail against an ogre, you need 20 or less power 17:29:55 which you'd have at, say, invo 7 + piety 50 17:30:42 oh i'm sorry, i forgot that it gets halved 17:31:00 what about a stepdown, are there any stepdowns? 17:31:19 you will fail reciting against an ogre with anything equal or less than 12 invo + piety 50 17:31:33 and haste it ~70% of the time 17:32:20 actually it's a bit worse than that, because even if you exceed the ogre's res magic, you need to then roll xd(difference) twice and take the average 17:32:25 so you can roll two 0s 17:33:56 03dolorous * r392472d52dfa 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/database/monspeak.txt: Tweak spacing. 17:34:02 another awesome feature : since you can't pacify demons, even if somehow you managed to roll high enough to pacify one 17:34:37 nothing would happen, because it doesn't fall back to find an eligible effect 17:35:26 in other words if you are pacifying something only vulnerable to confusion you want to actually reduce your piety or else your recites will do nothing to it 17:48:50 -!- Twinge has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:59:36 -!- stabwound has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 18:07:01 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 18:54:40 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:23:25 -!- Noom has joined ##crawl-dev 19:23:53 any1 cam explain me why i have 54 mana point at max spellcasting and +10 mp hat? 19:23:59 should be 55 isnt it? 19:28:57 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 19:31:20 -!- hashc has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:33:09 noom: how many MP do you have without the hat? 19:49:21 oh wow 19:49:40 zin recite actually uses EH code, i.e., it checks cold resistance 19:49:46 Noom: because all MP max at 49 19:49:56 (unboosted) 19:53:18 tnx 19:58:09 Demigod tiles (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2842) by psyshvl 19:59:18 Eronarn: nice 19:59:25 Eronarn: hahahaha 20:02:00 really, it's so awesome. how did this get coded like this 20:02:53 I'm amazed nobody noticed it, too 20:03:11 nobody uses zin but i guess also nobody reads patches 20:07:35 hmm, is there an enchant that silences someone? not silence, that's the actual spell 20:08:32 are you saying that rC enemies are immune to recite? 20:08:54 It shouldn't use hibernate then. 20:09:13 OG17: no, they're immune to the sleep effect of recite 20:09:28 that's cute 20:10:21 @??death drake 20:10:22 death drake (15l) | Speed: 13 | HD: 9 | Health: 56-100 | AC/EV: 6/14 | Damage: 12 | Flags: cold-blooded, fly, !sil | Res: 06magic(36), 03poison | Chunks: 04hydrochloric acid | XP: 827 | Sp: miasma (3d9). 20:11:42 i like the way this calculation of impurity works out 20:12:58 ghouls are extra impure because they're walking corpses *with* a rotting attack :) 20:13:14 Sky beast Tile (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2843) by psyshvl 20:13:42 looks like a hoversheep 20:13:52 I mean 20:13:53 rocket sheep 20:13:56 yesss 20:13:59 did you guys see the sky beast pic i linked a while ago 20:13:59 half robot 20:14:04 yes it was great 20:14:10 where? 20:14:55 02:31 < Eronarn> ... 20:14:55 02:31 < Eronarn> this = sky beast 20:14:56 02:31 < Eronarn> http://www.creaturespot.com/main/2010/11/12/cephalophant-monster.html 20:15:03 !learn add sky_beast http://www.creaturespot.com/main/2010/11/12/cephalophant-monster.html 20:15:03 sky beast[2/2]: http://www.creaturespot.com/main/2010/11/12/cephalophant-monster.html 20:15:21 nice 20:16:34 hmm, are there any other monsters i should special case as impure besides rotting devil / death drake 20:16:46 i'm thinking green death because they're described as bloated/etc. iirc 20:16:49 Hm, that sky beast tile doesn't really fit. 20:17:03 what are they supposed to like? 20:17:05 Eronarn: Peoplehave already workedout specific logic for that. 20:17:07 look like* 20:17:14 TGWi: Chinese dragon. 20:17:20 or a Quetzal 20:17:22 due: it doesn't work for this 20:17:41 There's "monster_is_unclen"? 20:17:46 yes, i know 20:17:52 You can't just start redoing logic, dude. 20:18:03 Unless tyou have an extremely good reason for it 20:18:10 sure i can; that function doesn't return what i need it to, and i'm not going to modify it 20:18:41 What do you need it to return? 20:19:29 a degree of uncleanliness/etc. (not currenly handled by that function), and to focus on just uncleanliness 20:19:47 is_unclean also includes 'is priest of a chaotic god' 20:20:28 this may well work for 'things zin hates', but it's not really what i need for recite 20:22:29 what's it used for, piety? 20:22:38 is_unclean? i believe so yes 20:24:17 yeah; he has a conduct for is_unclean and is_chaotic it looks like 20:24:27 which, looking at it, doesn't make much sense 20:26:09 the two chaos-related things in is_unclean should prooobably go into is_chaotic 20:56:02 -!- Twilight-1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:58:30 -!- Twilight has joined ##crawl-dev 20:58:56 -!- Twilight is now known as Guest15230 21:04:33 -!- timecircuits has quit [Quit: timecircuits] 21:31:01 -!- Guest15230 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:31:12 -!- Guest15230 has joined ##crawl-dev 21:40:03 -!- Iainuki has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:23:30 -!- Vandal has joined ##crawl-dev 22:23:51 -!- Vandal has quit [Client Quit] 22:24:53 -!- Vandal has joined ##crawl-dev 23:00:30 -!- upsy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:03:41 -!- Vandal has quit [] 23:10:07 am i applying bleeding in the wrong way, or does it currently not display besides the initial/stopped bleeding messages? 23:12:52 eronarn: that's what currently happens, yeah 23:14:09 oh okay, that's pretty bad then 23:25:08 -!- Noom has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:45:58 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:48:26 -!- TGWi has left ##crawl-dev 23:50:29 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 23:54:08 -!- timecircuits has joined ##crawl-dev