00:07:34 -!- Kurper has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:18:51 -!- OG17 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:24:32 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 02:25:05 -!- monky has quit [Quit: hello] 03:10:15 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:14:02 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 04:14:14 travel to/from Hell is broken (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2837) by KiloByte 04:41:36 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 05:16:46 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 05:23:04 hi dpeg 05:32:40 Hi! 05:35:57 I've put a page on the wiki for the m-screen 05:52:15 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:14:58 -!- upsy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:15:21 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 06:27:11 galehar: just back, will look at the page 06:33:45 -!- galehar has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:55:41 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 07:11:28 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 07:11:40 dpeg: any input on this? https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:interface:ideas#indicate_piety_hunger_costs_of_abilities 07:18:06 galehar: will do 07:18:12 basically, I agree with you 07:21:17 ok, because he updated the patch with my suggestions 07:21:30 with a few tweaks here and there, it should be good 07:23:52 oh, wasn't aware there was so much new content 07:24:19 The latest version sound pretty good. I take it the detailed costs would be seen when looking at the ability's description? 07:31:58 galehar: replied 07:32:37 dpeg: yes, detailed costs are in the description 07:32:49 galehar: that's a very good system 07:33:05 I always wanted to show piety costs, but got stuck by trying to show them in the a screen itself. 07:36:13 about the skill screen, do you think we need a general help accessible with _ or are the 2 liners enough? 07:37:32 because to include your sugesstions, I need some room on the help line :) 07:37:51 galehar: my strings are too long? 07:38:38 it is already 80 chars (with _: help) 07:39:08 -!- OG17 has joined ##crawl-dev 07:39:19 "read descriptions" is slightly longer than "change action" 07:39:32 galehar: but we don't need the help bit! 07:39:48 that's what I was asking 07:39:49 good 08:03:30 KiloByte (L27 FeAE) (Abyss) 08:03:50 umm... 08:03:53 pressed ?: 08:04:36 and indeed, same in wizmode 08:04:52 kilobyte: what's wrong? 08:05:27 ?: causes a crash 08:06:08 oh 08:07:04 Why are you going around pressing ?: anyway 08:07:15 it's NOTE_LOSE_SKILL 08:07:35 oops my bad 08:07:47 I changed that yesterday 08:08:05 greensnark: wanted to see why I'm not liched and what mutation other than berserkitis I just got 08:08:14 I though if it's not in enum.h, it shouldn't be a problem changing the order 08:08:49 kilobyte: revert 1668a8926a3 08:09:04 and what with games which have this? 08:09:14 note that this can make people immortal 08:09:58 damn 08:09:59 sorry 08:10:44 how to fix it? 08:10:45 uhm... sorry for what? There's just one way to not make errors: sit and do nothing. 08:10:51 I'm thinking... 08:12:31 I'd say, what about just checking if the numbers for notes involved are sane? 08:13:21 and what to do if they are not? 08:13:57 say "corrupted note"? 08:14:18 ok 08:14:22 seems good 08:14:47 most games are on the old version 08:15:12 this bug is live since today 6:15 or something like that :) 08:15:20 since it was updated 6am CET today 08:15:22 yeah 08:19:42 @??slime creature 08:19:42 slime creature (03J) | Speed: 10 | HD: 11 | Health: 41-77 | AC/EV: 1/4 | Damage: 22 | Flags: amphibious, regen | Res: 06magic(44), 03poison, asphyx | XP: 423. 08:19:47 @??enormous slime creature 08:19:47 enormous slime creature (03J) | Speed: 10 | HD: 11 | Health: 164-308 | AC/EV: 1/4 | Damage: 88 | Flags: amphibious, regen | Res: 06magic(44), 03poison, asphyx | XP: 1309. 08:20:01 @??billygoat 08:20:01 unknown monster: "billygoat" 08:20:22 OG17: what was that comment about endorsing spoilers about? 08:20:48 you saw Galehar's response? 08:21:22 heh... the old version seems to work fine, at most resulting in an empty god name 08:21:25 galehar explained why the reduced information tells players more than they need to know about the id minigame. What's wrong with that? 08:21:56 03kilobyte * r3f63c60e2cdc 10/crawl-ref/source/notes.h: Revert "Remove useless TAG_MAJOR_VERSION condition" 08:22:16 kilobyte: thanks :) 08:22:36 but if I'm wrong, we'll get new crashes :( 08:23:32 I don't think the game needs to hide useful and/or player-placed information to intentionally create a "trivial deduction" that's meaningless to people that know what they're doing and only serves to hurt new players 08:23:39 pretty much 08:24:05 but it doesn't hide anything 08:24:26 "The "inscribe tried on foo" one is unnecessarily verbose and can hide the item weight or the player's inscriptions." 08:25:02 "The fact that a long inscription can hide weight is a separate issue. Hiding player inscriptions seems very minor." 08:25:10 well, only if you tried the scroll on an unrandart or something 08:25:12 OG17: it is temporary... as soon as you know what the scroll is (and you want to know that because they are good scrolls), the insciprion is gone. 08:25:23 Unstable branch on CDO updated to: 0.8.0-a0-2495-g3f63c60 (31.12) 08:25:34 ^ inscription 08:26:05 OG17: how do you get the "...hurts new players pretty much"? We're talking about a trivial detail. 08:26:22 they'd be likewise temporary if they weren't so unwieldy 08:26:39 hiding the weight of a scroll in some edge cases doesn't seem like a big issue 08:27:06 because that's literally the reasoning presented here? 08:27:28 if there's a way to do this that doesn't hide information it'd be a lot better 08:27:49 and avoiding that to maintain spoilers doesn't seem like what the game's about 08:28:00 OG17: you are too excited. It's much ado about very little. 08:28:06 okay 08:28:30 The id minigame is not at all about spoilers. 08:30:54 also, as always, suggestions are welcome, but tgw's comment is anything but a suggestion. 08:31:23 it's still one of the more spoiler-heavy parts of the game. I'd think there'd be a desire to lessen that wherever possible, rather than support it 08:31:56 tgw's comment was closer to a bug report 08:34:20 but I'm looking at his comment, and I have no idea what to inscribe the item with. 08:37:05 "tried on a unidentified item," "tried on a wand," "tried on armor" I guess? 08:37:27 tgw would want the armor part more complex I guess but that wouldn't come up often early game 08:38:17 and how that would help new player? 08:38:39 it'd help everyone by not hiding weight and inscriptions 08:38:49 it doesn't 08:38:52 come on 08:38:57 okay 08:39:07 with what item does it hide weight? 08:39:20 ask tgw 08:39:26 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:39:27 also look at wands 08:41:15 but again I can't say exactly what he had in mind 08:41:21 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 08:41:26 more than 22 chars before it starts hiding wieght 08:42:50 also, what to inscribe if a noob decide to try a scroll on a identified ring? "tried on a identified item which wasn't an armour nor a wand"? 08:42:54 ... 08:43:10 "tried" 08:43:52 is that even possible? 08:44:10 my point is he's not going to understand why inscriptions behave differently 08:44:18 everything is possible 08:44:47 The solution to mention the item is clean, simple and good. 08:45:08 of course, that was my idea to begin with ;) 08:47:31 also ten seconds of checking gets "h- x scrolls labeled KLJSDFAAD (tried on forked copper wand {zapped: 1} {tri 08:48:03 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 08:49:32 well, one thing can be improved: don't include item inscription 08:50:24 that'd help, yes 08:51:06 galehar: yes 09:16:00 Tried scroll descriptions become the item name (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2838) by OG17 10:43:23 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:44:29 03dolorous * r24f40a530b72 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/database/godspeak.txt: Add punctuation fix. 10:44:45 03dolorous * r03cca5261e67 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/database/godspeak.txt: Tweak wording. 10:44:46 03dolorous * r73efda528658 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/database/godspeak.txt: Typo fix. 10:45:39 So I noticed Paladin is still a class on trunk, did the movement to remove them die off? 10:48:25 Also, taking another programming class in winter quarter, I should know enough to get started helping for real by spring, I hope 10:48:41 Right now I just know enough to make methods and arrays, really basic stuff 10:48:47 input from / output to file 10:49:08 The winter class is the follow up to this one 10:57:08 Vandal: that 'really basic stuff' is enough to get started helping for real 10:57:19 :O 10:57:46 large part of crawl is procedural and not oop 10:58:42 even the oop parts i've seen haven't done anything fancy yet 11:18:01 -!- MarvinPA|2 has joined ##crawl-dev 11:20:25 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:28:35 I feel so out of touch :) a new race, the exploration gods, what else is going on recently? 11:28:43 heck a new god too 11:30:40 cool new spells 11:30:43 -!- MarvinPA|2 is now known as MarvinPA 11:30:46 better draconians 11:32:09 better Draconians how? 11:32:14 also hiyo Marvin 11:33:05 heyhey, they got better AC and rebalanced breath weapons, as well as always getting their resistance at xl7 and probably some other stuff i forgot 11:33:14 dragonform 11:33:18 and dragonform <3 11:33:20 ? 11:33:23 The spell? 11:33:32 for draconians, it's only tmut now instead of tmut/fire 11:33:46 Really, they can alter spells based on race? 11:33:54 well damn, that could make for some really interesting stuff 11:34:08 and it transforms them into whichever dragon their colour is and doubles their breath weapon power 11:34:15 haha awesome 11:34:25 But they learn it like anyone else learns Dragonform? 11:34:29 yeah 11:34:33 wow 11:34:45 This opens the door to a lot of awesome race specific spells 11:34:56 Has anyone started looking into more opportunities like this yet? 11:35:04 not that i can think of 11:35:22 :O 11:35:25 TO THE WIKI I GO 11:42:32 Marvin 11:42:45 I'm going to repost our conversation about Dragonform on the wiki if you don't mind 11:42:51 go for it 11:44:23 It almost seems like they should just make Dragonform an inherent ability though, honestly 11:44:31 I mean why wouldn't you go for a class defining power? 11:44:35 well race defining 11:44:52 Set it to L15 or something like Kenku super flight 11:45:17 (not a passive, I mean make it so they can exchange nutrition to cast the spell as an ability) 11:46:40 that is a bad idea 11:46:53 Why? 11:47:27 it removes a lot of the reason for them to train tmut, lets trogites use dragonform, guarantees that it will be available, etc. 11:47:35 Put more limitations on it than the regular casting 11:48:05 Then if htey want to cast it as a spell it can remain as powerful as it is as a spell right now 11:48:17 And there is still motivation if you want to be a tmuter 11:48:21 this is a really bad idea that is going to go nowhere at all, hth 11:48:46 Seems like a waste not to make it available to non-magic using Dr 11:51:20 why should it be available to non-magic using Dr 11:51:48 I don't know why anyone would make a non-magic using Dr after hearing about that 11:52:00 Sounds too cool to pass up 11:52:24 Like the final evolution of your L7 change 11:52:49 being able to actually become that dragon for a limited time 11:52:50 really i'd rather dragonform was single-school tmut for everyone 11:53:05 since dracs still get a wizardry bonus casting it on top of that, i think 11:53:15 haha nice 11:53:32 Does a bot still post in here when a new wiki page goes up? 11:53:42 don't think so 11:54:14 -!- Kurper has joined ##crawl-dev 11:57:29 MarvinPA: one issue with single school is: at that point why have it make you a fire dragon? 11:57:53 well one idea was for it to turn you into different dragons depending on how your other magic skills look 11:58:44 dragon form should be pure tmut, yes 11:59:03 I think the next race that needs some spell-mods is Mummy 11:59:06 but tmut/fire level 8 is just impossible for anyone to cast 11:59:10 I don't care if it defaults to fire or gets flavored by your highest skill but there's no reason any tmut character would have a ton of fire skill 11:59:22 Mummy and Necro could interact better than just restricting what they're allowed to cast 11:59:26 no race needs spell-mods, stop 11:59:55 OG17 then you don't like the bonus Dr get? 12:00:15 no, I'd rather the spell be usable by any other race 12:00:41 racial bonus is okay and all but gimmicky 12:00:52 Gimmicky until tested and proven to be a good feature 12:01:17 pretty sure I meant gimmicky 12:01:35 Of course you did 12:01:43 I meant until tested and proven to work 12:01:55 it's a gimmick regardless 12:01:56 it's mainly cool just because it makes dragonform actually usable rather than impossible to cast, like it currently is for non-dracs 12:01:58 A brave new world, OG17 12:02:08 what 12:02:10 the only real racial feature for Dr is that they keep their colour-related breath weapon and resistance in dragonform 12:02:30 which is fine and works nicely 12:02:40 yes 12:02:45 I really should play Mummy and Necro to get a feel for how they could interact better 12:03:11 I always envisioned Mu to be the undead race most in-touch with magic 12:03:16 races are flavored by spell apts, they don't need to be further pushed into a direction by special spell behavior 12:03:23 they already get two enhancers 12:03:40 Don't they lose access entirely to some of the most powerful Necro spells? 12:04:02 Those spells could have a modified behavior for them and remain castable without being overpowered 12:04:12 idk, this is just brainstorming 12:06:02 Like say Lichform becomes Livingform for them, learned the same way, but allows them to reverse what other races do when they cast it 12:06:07 no 12:06:50 There are a lot of cool possibilities here for what seems like one of the least interesting races in the game 12:07:39 if you're going to make undead-restricted spells castable by undead, it should be for all undead 12:07:47 Sure, why not? 12:07:59 As long as the effect isn't overpowered 12:08:18 well, ghouls can regen can't they? but not mummies? 12:08:49 believe so 12:08:57 This is just a most basic example of how the game could be improved by using this technique again 12:09:08 With time and serious thought there could be a lot of very cool improvements 12:09:28 nah 12:09:34 i think making mummies not a fundamentally terrible race would be better than just tweaking their access to certain necromancy spells 12:10:17 A journey begins with a single step, Marvin 12:11:02 perhaps gimmicks are not a step towards fundamental improvements 12:11:06 ideally one in the right direction, not a completely unrelated one :P 12:11:08 also mummies are fine jeez 12:11:16 (jeez) 12:11:55 mummies aren't totally fine but making spells work differently for them isn't the answer 12:12:06 Certainly not the complete answer 12:12:15 it's not a part of the answer 12:12:21 Just one example of spell tweaking being put to good use again 12:13:00 yeah, no 12:14:06 Saying no over and over isn't the same as providing a good reason why not 12:14:09 did you really make a wiki page for a chatlog 12:14:24 No :P Did you really not read it? 12:14:33 there's nothing there to read 12:14:50 "A list of race modified spells; current and for future consideration" 12:15:00 Now you're just being antagonistic 12:15:09 I think you forgot to make a list 12:15:17 I think you forget what brainstorming is 12:15:31 Or how a wiki can have more added to it 12:15:35 you couldn't have waited long enough to think of a single example? 12:15:43 I just talked about an example in here 12:15:55 good reasons why not: it's hard to convey that a race has spell function modified; it's hard to balance it; even without racial changes to spells, certain spells are very good or bad for certain races 12:16:33 I disagree with your first statement, if you can change what a spells does based on race I'm sure you can change the spell description in their book once they've learned it 12:16:57 As for the 2nd, everything is hard to balance 12:16:59 nobody reads those for every spell they memorize for every race 12:17:32 Racial description can indicate which spells behave differently to indicate the player should review those spells if learned 12:17:50 ugh what the hell is wrong with you 12:17:52 it's too complex, a spell does the same thing for everyone, modified by global stuff like school enhancements or vehumet range increases 12:18:05 Anyways I'm done talking about this for now 12:18:08 I get it, you don't like it 12:18:09 no one wants to keep track of what the same spell does across several races 12:18:25 we don't like bad ideas, and what you don't get is that this is one 12:18:44 I don't agree that it is one, and your opinion isn't any more correct than anyone elses 12:19:07 Whatever version of what I'm talking about you see in your mind is obviously not what I'm seeing 12:19:30 I blame my lack of ability to convery properly why I think this is a good idea 12:19:47 convey, woops 12:19:59 alternatively maybe we understand exactly what you're saying and don't think it's any good 12:20:11 though you can go pretty far with that attitude, it seems 12:21:22 If you understand exactly what I'm saying and don't see why this could be very good, again, this is my failing to communicate properly 12:21:51 no, it's your idea sucking 12:22:02 Very mature 12:22:05 I'm done 12:30:19 03dolorous * r2b9f31dd5f3a 10/crawl-ref/source/godabil.cc: Add missing end-of-file newline. 12:34:48 -!- monky has joined ##crawl-dev 12:50:14 part of me really wants to put livingform on that wiki page 12:50:17 in chatlog format 13:01:56 is it WAD that you can't read scrolls if you're at negative int but then quaff a potion of brilliance to put you at positive? 13:50:36 03dolorous * r31a9a56916f9 10/crawl-ref/source/abl-show.cc: Add missing blank line. 13:50:37 03dolorous * r1c3fa2f8e090 10/crawl-ref/source/abl-show.cc: Properly put Ash's knowledge transfer abilities in invocation slots. 14:00:19 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 14:07:26 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:12:24 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 14:22:55 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 15:01:42 -!- syllogism has quit [] 15:02:23 @??yaktaur 15:02:23 yaktaur (05c) | Speed: 10 | HD: 8 | Health: 31-60 | AC/EV: 4/4 | Damage: 15 | Res: 06magic(32) | XP: 397. 15:02:35 @??yaktaur captain 15:02:35 yaktaur captain (04c) | Speed: 10 | HD: 14 | Health: 58-93 | AC/EV: 5/5 | Damage: 23 | Res: 06magic(56) | XP: 1398. 15:02:42 hmm, how did this one get hasted 15:07:58 potion 15:50:16 03galehar * r51c27d231264 10/crawl-ref/source/ (player.cc stairs.cc travel.cc): Don't report found items twice after being shafted 15:50:22 03gafrie * r8998f6f38ac4 10/crawl-ref/source/ (dat/descript/items.txt describe.cc): More detailed corrosion resistance reporting 15:50:28 03galehar * r416eb0bc8cbf 10/crawl-ref/source/ (dat/descript/items.txt describe.cc): Move all corrosion resistance information into its own function 15:50:29 03gafrie * r6ecae1189ca4 10/crawl-ref/source/abl-show.cc: Show detailed costs of abilities 2 15:50:31 03galehar * r2b370b6b53b1 10/crawl-ref/source/item_use.cc: Don't include item inscription in the "tried on foo" message 15:50:33 03galehar * rf702fe26160d 10/crawl-ref/source/itemname.cc: Don't append "tried..." strings when asking for DESC_DBNAME 15:50:35 03galehar * r894d9a509b74 10/crawl-ref/source/ (externs.h itemname.cc): Treat "tried" and "zapped" strings as inscriptions in item_def::name() 15:50:38 03galehar * r18d9d3b749a4 10/crawl-ref/source/abl-show.cc: Abilities: change permanent HP/MP cost description 15:50:39 03galehar * r6556034cc5f8 10/crawl-ref/source/ (skills2.cc skills2.h): _display_skill_table: change the show_all boolean into a flag 15:50:42 03galehar * rbd99aaa6a20e 10/crawl-ref/source/ (godabil.cc godabil.h religion.cc skills2.cc): Use ashenzari_end_transfer function when transfer is finished 15:50:44 03galehar * r33fa8fb24f0f 10/crawl-ref/source/ (godabil.cc skills2.cc skills2.h): Use you.transfer_from_skill instead of passing a from_skill parameter. 15:50:46 03galehar * r6f0aad36cc66 10/crawl-ref/source/skills2.cc: Disallow "show all" when selecting the first skill 15:50:47 03galehar * r88e78a625f05 10/crawl-ref/source/skills2.cc: Fix alignment of aptitude in reskill menu 15:51:16 03galehar * r611ed22d1d18 10/crawl-ref/source/skills2.cc: Add a _skill_is_selectable function. 17:09:31 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.12/20101026210630]] 17:22:32 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:28:48 03dolorous * rb074779061c8 10/crawl-ref/source/describe.cc: Fix indentation. 17:28:50 03dolorous * rbf7ec1e821f6 10/crawl-ref/source/godabil.cc: Readd missing period. 17:54:01 crash when dumping (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2839) by Galefury 18:11:31 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:18:01 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 18:22:44 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:48:49 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 18:54:46 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 19:11:35 -!- MarvinPA has quit [] 19:19:47 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 19:23:19 aaa, almost done with the text part 19:23:27 only 10 more o split 19:33:26 how does tornado work with nightstalker/lantern of shadows 19:34:38 oh yeah i was going to try that 19:34:41 nightstalker, at least 19:34:53 it's probably crazy ridiculous like everything with nightstalker 19:37:22 -!- upsy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:42:25 -!- MarvinPA|2 has joined ##crawl-dev 19:43:41 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:51:37 -!- MarvinPA|2 is now known as MarvinPA 19:52:44 -!- timecircuits has joined ##crawl-dev 19:52:59 nightstalker: it is bad, remove it 19:53:09 boy has it been an eternity since I've been in here 20:29:17 -!- Kurper has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:31:28 -!- Kurper has joined ##crawl-dev 20:31:38 Windows development builds on CDO updated to: 0.8.0-a0-2517-gbf7ec1e 21:16:57 -!- enne has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:17:13 -!- enne has joined ##crawl-dev 22:04:15 -!- felirx has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:31:05 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 22:48:06 -!- TGWi has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:23:10 -!- Kurper_ has joined ##crawl-dev 23:26:29 -!- Kurper has quit [Remote host closed the connection]