01:20:08 -!- minced has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:21:17 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 02:50:56 -!- herself1 has joined ##crawl-dev 02:53:41 -!- enne has quit [*.net *.split] 02:53:41 -!- herself has quit [*.net *.split] 02:53:42 -!- Wensley has quit [*.net *.split] 02:53:42 -!- Pseudonut has quit [*.net *.split] 02:53:42 -!- Cryp71c has quit [*.net *.split] 02:53:42 -!- Sequell has quit [*.net *.split] 02:55:55 -!- Pseudonut has joined ##crawl-dev 02:55:55 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 02:55:55 -!- Sequell has joined ##crawl-dev 02:56:21 -!- enne has joined ##crawl-dev 02:59:25 Napkin, ping? 02:59:31 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 03:06:32 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:08:55 due? 03:09:18 -!- monky has quit [Quit: hello] 03:09:23 und moin! 03:10:20 Is und moin like a really fancy version of moin? 03:10:33 no way ;) 03:10:40 "und": "and" 03:10:50 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 03:11:00 I need to learn fancy-moin! :o 03:11:20 Isn't moin...like casual? 03:11:35 Can I say moin be fancy at the same time? 03:12:02 Teach me 'o German person! 03:12:19 then you'd say "einen wunderschönen guten Morgen!" :D 03:12:37 or try "moin moin!" ;D 03:12:45 Double moin! I like it! 03:12:59 moin, Napkin! 03:14:24 hey due :) 03:15:20 Does that translate to something like 'wonderful good morning'? 03:15:31 I have no idea what einen means 03:15:41 a 03:15:49 but the other words seem to resemble the english words I listed 03:15:51 :o 03:15:54 einen is a declined form 03:16:09 that seems silly [from my prospective] 03:16:15 why? 03:16:19 I like single letter articles 03:16:20 a 03:16:23 ... 03:16:27 Then don't learn any other languages, dude. 03:16:39 Spanish has y... 03:16:41 Nah, I'm just teasing 03:16:48 stop being a meanie 03:16:51 :p 03:16:59 * gamefreak264 throws a sigmund at due 03:17:11 accusative male of "a": einen 03:17:11 :o 03:17:26 what is eine? 03:17:35 I used to study german 03:17:42 can be multiple things - definitely female 03:17:57 nominative or accusative 03:17:58 eine is not emacs 03:17:59 okay 03:18:05 sorear: HAHAHA. <3 03:18:12 or was that sine 03:18:13 .D 03:18:46 Ack, recursive acronyms! D: 03:20:08 he could just play crawl-de 03:20:25 oh damn, that doesn't exist yet! 03:21:10 cronjob update-mingw-all-trunk.sh didn't work again... 03:21:18 PATH not set correctly... grrr 03:21:36 cronjobs are fun :3 03:24:46 you're in Germaany, why don't you hire a cheap 1-euro jobber to do it? 03:25:43 bhaak: those guys sound... like the type of person I wouldn't let near my computer 03:26:51 Are they scary? 03:27:05 Wait, this isn't ##Crawl-offtopic 03:29:53 of course, criticising bad working conditions is off-topic here. Otherwise you would throw down the terror regime of dpeg and do what you really wanted to do. Play nethack! 03:37:03 Nethack is horrifying! :o 03:37:25 Windows development builds on CDO updated to: 0.8.0-a0-2127-g65d7900 03:41:53 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:56:16 -!- gamefreak264 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:07:30 -!- Pseudonut has joined ##crawl-dev 04:18:53 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 04:27:09 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:40:43 -!- casmith789 has joined ##crawl-dev 04:51:46 !learn add unicode6.0 A boatload of glyphs for you to abuse. A font with all symbol blocks: http://users.teilar.gr/~g1951d/Symbola600.zip Test: 💩 04:51:46 Syntax is: !learn add TERM TEXT 04:51:56 !learn add unicode6_0 A boatload of glyphs for you to abuse. A font with all symbol blocks: http://users.teilar.gr/~g1951d/Symbola600.zip Test: 💩 04:51:56 unicode6 0[1/1]: A boatload of glyphs for you to abuse. A font with all symbol blocks: http://users.teilar.gr/~g1951d/Symbola600.zip Test: 💩 04:52:20 !learn add unicode6 {see unicode6_0} 04:52:20 unicode6[1/1]: {see unicode6_0} 04:52:48 !learn edit unicode6[1] s/.*/see {unicode6_0}/ 04:52:48 unicode6[1/1]: see {unicode6_0} 04:55:07 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:23:16 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 06:02:08 -!- casmith789 has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:02:36 -!- casmith789 has joined ##crawl-dev 06:10:40 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 06:19:14 -!- enne has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:19:19 -!- enne has joined ##crawl-dev 06:25:18 dpeg, kilobyte: I've got a basic UI for ash reskilling working 06:25:18 galehar: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 06:25:24 !messages 06:25:25 (1/1) dpeg said (18h 48m 8s ago): Potion of brilliance is fine, no change required. 06:26:09 I can't push it right now, so I might as well flesh it out before I push it tonight 06:26:25 so, what is the ability name? 06:26:48 what about piety level? I think there's only the first level left. 06:28:40 galehar: Hi! 06:28:45 Hi 06:28:45 Good to be back :) 06:29:09 Yeah, sorry I was a bit on and off yesterday. I have more time today. 06:29:11 name: Transfer Knowlegde? 06:29:19 galehar: don't sweat, we're all working 06:29:39 galehar: piety level should be ***** or even ****** 06:30:03 dolorous enabled that a piety break point can have more than one effect 06:30:13 What does your interface look like? 06:30:44 several ability per piety break point : isn't it very hackish? 06:31:10 the interface is extremely basic for now. A menu list all your current skills, you type a letter 06:31:37 and another menu to choose the destination skill 06:31:56 should you be able to transfer to unknown skill (so we list them all?) 06:32:34 galehar: no, I don't think so 06:35:32 current abilities and piety break points: 1:none, 2:XP bonus, 3:sinv, 4:scrying, 5:clarity 06:35:35 so 6 is free 06:35:45 we can expect a player to get a skill to 1 before using Transfer 06:35:54 galehar: not sure about hacky 06:36:13 I am not so happy about the xp bonus, because it's so hidden :) 06:36:22 but we'll leave it in until the very end 06:36:31 well, I 've noticed it's not very popular 06:36:39 galehar: well, players will love it 06:36:43 they're xp hogs 06:36:51 but it's so indirect and power-gamey 06:37:07 i.e. neither tactical nor strategical, not visible but strong 06:37:29 galehar: there are more powers anyway: detect curse, id items? 06:39:05 don't know, maybe you gain them when you join 06:39:18 there's no message about gaining these powers 06:39:41 there's over ten of these, it would be way too spammy 06:39:49 kilobyte: agreed 06:39:50 About messages: what message when you gain/lose transfer knowledge? 06:40:24 "As you close your mind for [Foo], you feel ready to understand [Bar]."? 06:40:27 just a proposal 06:40:40 As you forget about [Foo] 06:42:20 galehar: I thought about having the xp move slowly from Foo to Bar. 06:42:24 What about message when you gain/lose the ability 06:42:28 This is a cool idea, but we have to be careful. 06:43:05 "Ashenzari helps you to reconsider your skills."? 06:43:22 For example, turns (or time) is not good: that would encourage players to wait it out. 06:44:03 well, then use the new exploring timer 06:44:59 yes, that makes sense, especially with Ash 06:49:49 so, about items detection, don't you think it's a good idea to use the same functions to determine good/emergency items for item coloring and for detection? 06:49:56 for item detection: I'm afraid that highlighting only "good" items would hide many stuff you do want to use: scrolls, food, etc 06:50:36 while promoting junk like fog or fear that is typically not worth the inventory slot 06:50:56 fear can be handy for some time 06:50:59 and fog for zig! 06:51:16 "typically" 06:51:43 Zig is far from being a regular case... 06:53:07 kilobyte: one option is to highlight _really_ good items. 06:53:15 I think the point is to locate only very good items (details can be discussed). Because you normally are going to explore a level and pickup all the loot. item detection is useful to tell you : "you think you should skip this level because it's too dangerous, but there is valuable loot just a few steps over there" 06:53:29 The player will want to visit all of the level anyway, but showing to him "here's really rare stuff" would already be cool and useful 06:53:38 then we'd mix stuff you do want to get with things utterly useless 06:54:14 the emergency and good items functions can (and should) be improved 06:54:29 for example, in Zot or late D, what would make me stop in my tracks: blinking, /healing, /hasting, some randarts 06:54:34 hmm... actually, I'd rather put the split for gray|non-gray rather than exceptional|everything else 06:54:47 kilobyte: I am fine with any system. 06:54:51 I'm just saying we should improve and use them so we have more relevant coloring and detection 06:55:08 Currently, we show all items and that's only a little useful. 06:55:18 Any choice will make it better- 06:55:26 galehar: sounds good to me 06:55:28 dpeg: and what about permafood? Or scrolls of enchant armour? 06:55:41 kilobyte: I wouldn't list permafood. 06:56:03 galehar: I don't like strange subjective item and spell coloring very much 06:56:23 especially in, say, Pan, it is something you can't ignore 06:56:35 it confuses players and doesn't really mean anything except what a couple people decide is good 06:57:08 btw, is the item/spell coloring documented? I remember wondering what the colors meant when I started crawling. 06:57:15 kilobyte: remember: players will see all items anyway 06:57:28 the question is which items we want to highlight as "you may want to see them now" 06:57:40 of course, it would be cool if food was highlighted when very hungry :) 06:57:51 galehar: don't think so 06:58:09 perhaps there is a pointer in options.txt to the relevant file 06:58:09 questions about spell and item coloring are some of the most common on ##crawl 06:58:48 so we really need to add it to the doc before thinking of coloring more stuff 06:59:08 meat-eating races in D or Lair don't care about permafood much, yeah... but Sp everywhere or most races in unliving branches have different priorities 06:59:39 or weapons: even as a maces char, you don't give a damn about clubs past D:1 06:59:47 isn't vegetable food already yellow for spriggan? 06:59:56 coloring of "good" items is bad enough; you shouldn't make a criterion for "good" items affect gameplay itself 07:00:00 but you damn want to pick up that demon whip 07:00:11 elliptic: good to know (no sarcasm here) 07:00:22 kiku abuser doesn't care about permafood anywhere to an extend either 07:00:29 galehar: yes, but so are contaminated chunks for carnivores 07:00:46 kilobyte: I absolutely support making Ash's item detection/distinction as intelligent as possible. 07:00:47 galehar: and for normal races, honeycombs are yellow but meat rations are not 07:01:30 Would be nice to be able to define all of this outside the code. 07:01:38 the "yellow" marking for food is useless currently 07:01:41 Including dependencies on skills, level, god. 07:01:50 right, and honeycomb don't even have a better nutrition/weight ratio than ration, their yellow coloring is stupid 07:01:59 galehar: honey is yellow :) 07:03:43 if we mix flavor and game mechanisms in the coloring, it's even worse 07:03:52 I agree, of course. 07:03:52 agree 07:04:28 With the monster colouring, Anym stepped up (twice I think) with an eloborate system. That was a nice surprise. 07:05:01 do we want anything but "popcorn/threat"? 07:06:33 kilobyte: I was referring to the actual glyphs and colours. 07:06:40 For Ash, two types are enough. 07:07:06 the old Detect Monster system wasn't bad 07:07:31 what did it do? 07:07:43 show the glyph but not colour 07:08:02 I proposed something similar to you :) 07:11:49 kilobyte: but we'd have to reserve one item colour for Ash 07:15:34 no, for items that would be an overkill 07:15:58 We could use darkgrey... 07:16:28 heck, the more I think, the less favourably I look upon showing anything more than just the item presence 07:17:09 I've played a lot of Ash... I think that only presence of items and monsters is not good enough. 07:17:20 unlike monsters, just knowing that there is some loot over there is enough in most cases... since it will wait for you 07:17:50 for monsters, you want to know if it's something you need to be afraid of or not 07:17:53 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 07:17:55 Okay, so what about an unambigous choice: randarts and emergency items? 07:18:04 what are "emergency items" 07:18:17 since we added scrolls of fog to "emergency" yesterday, that's a bad idea 07:18:19 elliptic: those that are coloured in your inventory as emergency items 07:18:22 the yellow colored ones 07:18:30 dpeg: the colors mean nothing 07:18:31 To me, a scroll of fog is always important. 07:18:34 what!? 07:18:36 elliptic: please 07:18:50 food is emergency? 07:19:10 no, that's another problem 07:19:15 dpeg: that effect was proposed for a _bad_ mutation 07:19:17 dpeg: I was serious 07:19:19 some coloring are wrong 07:19:35 kilobyte: what effect? 07:19:39 that is my attitude towards colors, because they don't make sense to me 07:19:58 but can't we try and improve it? 07:20:12 generating fog. Of course, being able to say when you want it shifts the usefulness. 07:20:21 elliptic: there are some items that are generally very useful in tactical situations. ?blink, !speed, !resist... those are emergency items 07:20:31 dpeg: how about !HW 07:20:32 galehar: yes, we should 07:20:51 but still, a 1/3 chance you'll avoid being shot at for a few turns is not a good use for a turn and an item slot 07:20:54 we also have good_items (cyan) 07:21:13 usually !resist is useless in a true emergency 07:21:20 !HW is emergency 07:21:23 you need to use it before the emergency happens 07:21:41 I don't know the exact list, but putting ?fog on the same footing as ?blinking is just silly 07:21:53 I think I can come up with a system that describes interesting items fairly well. Early on, that'd be all jewellery, all rings, all scrolls, all potions... later on, it restricts. 07:22:08 the same could be said for !speed. The ermergency is being in a dangerous situation, not dying next turn 07:22:13 what about wands? most wands are great in an emergency 07:22:20 galehar: no, !speed is always good 07:22:58 ?random uselessness has a what, 2/10 chance of blocking LOS? And it is "useless". ?fog has it like 1/3 and is somehow "emergency". 07:23:06 I meant the same thing you said about !resist could be said for !speed 07:23:20 I believe that it's be very cool if early Ash highlighted all rings etc. for you, but late Ash only a very restricted item set. 07:23:35 If people keep telling me that all classifications suck, I won't undertake that. 07:23:36 galehar: not really, most times an extra dot of resistance is not worth a turn in a bad situation 07:23:52 kilobyte: I've put ?fog in emergency to open up the debate, but we can remove it or put it in good items 07:24:02 elliptic: rElec certainly is 07:24:18 elliptic: but for other resistances, even rPois, you're right 07:24:24 kilobyte: only against nikola and electric golems 07:24:29 that's two monsters 07:24:40 didn't we add MR to !resist? 07:24:43 It is a triviality that all of these depend on circumstances. 07:25:00 If you face something doing fire damage without rF, !resist is more important. 07:25:03 dpeg: I think that classifications that are subjective like this one clearly is are a very bad idea 07:25:07 galehar: no, but we should 07:25:11 elliptic: ^ 07:25:15 elliptic: or storm dragons... I totally ignored them one game, then when I forgot I have no rElec on for a moment I got two-shotted. 07:25:20 "clearly very bad idea" 07:25:23 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 07:25:24 * dpeg tunes out 07:25:44 dpeg: the clearly was not modifying the "very bad idea" 07:26:04 and if you don't want to listen to my honest opinion, I'll leave. 07:26:04 dpeg: sorry, but I agree with elliptic here. Such complex logic means it's wrong in most cases. 07:26:08 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.10/20100914125854]] 07:26:24 I tried to explain what I want... 07:26:47 kilobyte: are you suggesting we should just get rid of yellow/cyan coloring of items? 07:26:54 When I go with Ash through D:5, I would like to have stones and scale mails be considered useless, but unknown wands, scrolls, jewellery not 07:27:22 Later on, I'll still be interested in unknown scrolls etc., but also in certain identified items. 07:28:03 in other words, a "nearly useless vs the rest" split 07:28:12 There are obviously mistakes to be made by any choice in both directions (useful items to the player shown as useless, and vice versa). But it would be a lot cooler and helpful than the current state. 07:28:22 kilobyte: yes 07:28:26 not a bad idea IMO 07:28:43 A player with sandblast may value stones more than anything else... so we do him wrong there. 07:28:57 I am fine with getting rid of the "good items" category btw. 07:29:09 I'm just not happy with fog being highlighted but not permafood 07:29:22 kilobyte: under Ash, or in inventory? 07:29:34 ok, so we'd need a logic for "mostly useless" 07:29:36 go ahead, remove fog. While your at it, also remove honeycomb :) 07:30:46 there's a big "important but not exceptional" category, mixing it with useless junk would be bad 07:30:48 If we're cool, being starving changes Ash output so that _only_ edible items are shown as useful, all the rest as useless. Okay, ?acq would also ne useful. 07:31:46 !tell elliptic Sorry for the hard feelings. My point was not to defend the questionable state of good/emergency item colouring, but to discuss new systems of Ash item distinction. For some reason, that was hard to get to going. Hope to see you back. 07:31:46 dpeg: OK, I'll let elliptic know. 07:31:58 I kind of agree with elliptic here again... such over-complex logic means it's very often wrong 07:32:06 are there taxes on god abilities? I put a cost of 10 piety and it randomly costs more... 07:32:44 kilobyte: how is this overcomplex? It is one special case for Starving, which clearly shifts the meaning of "useful". 07:32:52 galehar: ah, yes. 07:33:09 galehar: you need to check the piety cost function. There could also be more than one of them. 07:33:57 how often are you Starving with no food on you, and decide to explore instead of going to a stash? 07:34:12 Well, I'll just leave the base cost of 10. It needs to be expensive anyway. 07:34:32 kilobyte: rarely. But in the case it happens, the Ashenzarite will have a much better time finding food. 07:34:33 Do we want to factor in invocation in the amount of XP moved? 07:34:45 galehar: no, Ash has no use for Inv. 07:34:48 ok 07:34:55 kilobyte: this is very marginal, of course. So I am fine with just ignoring this case. 07:35:57 dpeg: being marginal is the problem... unless the player is very thoroughly spoiled, they won't know that the meaning of the display suddenly changed 07:37:48 kilobyte: which could be announced "Ashenzari helps you find food" but okay, let's not do this. 07:38:07 another issue that may seem silly: for this function, we need a tile right from the start 07:38:41 a monster having no tile is ok, but item distinction can't show as '?' 07:39:01 I can ask Eino or Johanna to come up with something very quick? 07:39:33 sure 07:40:09 * kilobyte thought of using something really egregious like U+1F4A9 which conveys the meaning but forces tile-makers to fix it outright 07:40:14 we need "useless item detected" tile, right? 07:41:31 email sent 07:41:35 if it's useless, why not just ignore it? 07:41:36 right, "near useless" to be exact as we don't want that scale mail 07:45:37 galehar: good point 08:12:18 kilobyte: have you looked at the skill code? 08:12:30 reskilling is going to be fun... 08:13:58 I know it awards points only stochastically 08:14:13 and that the cost depends mostly on your current level 08:14:34 and there are plenty of special cases 08:14:37 some discount 08:14:40 some randomness 08:14:44 it's awesome :) 08:15:07 there are discounts for cross-training, is there anything else? 08:15:36 well yes, the _exercise2 function is insane 08:15:43 special case for throwing in the late game 08:16:01 spellcasting and evo cheaper in the beginning 08:16:24 bonus to stealth 08:17:20 and of course, lowering of skill level isn't generally supported 08:17:34 but this shouldn't be too hard to do 08:18:37 the bonus to stealth is just awesome... as if this couldn't be placed right in aptitudes 08:19:25 anyway, the UI is functional. I can't git right now, but I can send you a patch if you want. I don't really feel like messing with the skill code. 08:20:34 -!- upsi has joined ##crawl-dev 08:20:58 -!- upsy has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:21:16 Morning 08:26:01 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 08:31:54 -!- ortoslon has quit [Disconnected by services] 08:31:54 -!- ortoslon1 has joined ##crawl-dev 08:31:58 -!- ortoslon1 is now known as ortoslon 08:39:38 -!- ortoslon has quit [Quit: bye] 08:50:24 Boring beetles path around obstacles to target. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2743) by Arxale 08:54:48 galehar: if you feel like cleaning up the skills mess, please go ahead :) 08:55:26 Eino will be very happy about Arxale's patch :) 08:55:37 see you later folks, coffee time over here 09:48:51 -!- monky has joined ##crawl-dev 10:51:53 -!- minced has joined ##crawl-dev 10:54:07 -!- minced has quit [Client Quit] 11:07:32 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:30:49 -!- herself1 is now known as herself 11:50:14 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 11:51:52 PapaBlues (L4 MuWr) ASSERT(item.defined()) in 'quiver.cc' at line 156 failed. (D:3) 11:53:32 PapaBlues (L4 MuWr) ASSERT(item.defined()) in 'quiver.cc' at line 156 failed. (D:2) 11:57:50 uh oh, that's no good 12:09:13 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:13:54 Wensley: your game? 12:38:50 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 12:39:05 dpeg: nope, I just wince at bugs in general 12:47:15 -!- Twinge has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:48:09 Let's at howl together at the bugs :) 12:48:12 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 12:48:24 !seen kilobyte 12:48:25 I last saw kilobyte at Thu Oct 21 14:17:07 2010 UTC (3h 31m 18s ago) saying its equivalent to xl 56 IIRC on ##crawl. 12:49:12 xl56? new level cap? :P 12:49:53 It's not even a cube! 12:50:01 So 64. 12:54:44 rather I believe 81 would continue our current trend, 3 ^ 3 ^ 3 ^ 3 12:54:55 although for symmetry it would have to be 4 ^ 4 ^ 4 ^ 4 12:56:27 which is a number with 8072304726028225379382630397085399030071367921738743031867082828418414481568309149198911814701229483451981557574771156496457238535299087481244990261351117 decimal digits 12:57:23 oh wait what am I talking about, 27 is *not* 3 ^ 3 ^ 3 12:57:29 super math fail 12:57:40 kilobyte was talking about the exp cap limit 12:58:03 Wensley: :P 12:58:18 what you mean is 3*3*3 --> 4*4*4*4=256 12:58:21 right 12:58:38 256 is an incredibly square number 12:58:41 or 3^3 -> 4^4? 12:58:42 possibly one of the squarest, imo 12:58:44 uh 12:58:48 * valrus is stupid 12:58:59 there is some kind of anti-math field in here 12:59:50 no! 13:00:05 :) 13:01:07 PbD... didn't get this for quite some time 13:15:05 -!- Pseudonut has joined ##crawl-dev 13:26:44 !tell Cryp71c Demonic guardians sometimes appear and disappear one or two turns later... 13:26:45 dpeg: OK, I'll let Cryp71c know. 13:30:20 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:34:15 dpeg, ok, I'm back..are you here? 13:34:16 !messages 13:34:17 (1/1) dpeg said (7m 32s ago): Demonic guardians sometimes appear and disappear one or two turns later... 13:35:06 yes 13:36:01 I had a friend yesterday mention that he had the same thing happening to him 13:36:23 Cryp71c: is there a counter that makes sure they'll stay for at least a few turns? 13:36:53 Just now, I had them appear because of some monster, move once (closer to that monster) and then disappear (nothing happened to the monster). 13:38:51 dpeg, that occurs in a very very slim window where a monster's tension is JUST enough to warrant a guardian, then the next turn (because a guardian exists in sight), the system checks and deems the guardian unnecessary, and removes him. 13:39:04 Its quite a delicate system, but I can see what I can do to fix that kind of issue. 13:40:53 friendlies decrease tension by a large amount, so that's not a "very very slim" windows 13:43:02 wouldn't that happen all the time, though? I was under the impression that guardians kept spawning until the tension was even 13:43:19 Cryp71c: some ideas: (a) different tension levels checked for placing and removing guardians; (b) if a guardian is placed, leave him for some guaranteed number of turns (they could come with a counter of say 4+d4 turns), apply tension check for removal only if counter is zero 13:44:57 dpeg: I'd suggest to have both. The latter alone would make them still disappear during longer fights, the former would be vulnerable to a big enemy being momentarily obscured by a corner. 13:45:49 yes, why not 13:45:53 Cryp71c, what do you think? 13:46:14 kilobyte: should we plan the useless/useful stuff more? (i.e. now+here) 13:46:20 Its easy enough to implement, but I fear for guardian balance 13:46:26 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:47:31 dpeg: do you mean Ash and items or something else? 13:47:47 Ash, yes 13:48:07 that's a long discussion, what about a quick talk about Dwarf first? 13:48:27 blue_anna seems to be gone, and having unused code does us no good 13:48:28 Cryp71c: better to make the guardian well behaved -- the erratic behaviour of now looks like a bug. If we think they're too strong, we simply place them less often. 13:48:36 kilobyte: you want to kick it out 13:48:38 ? 13:48:55 the plan at the time of inclusion was to wait a week to fix code issues and give it a try 13:49:17 what did blue_anna come up with? 13:49:25 I presume you guys are talking about the Dwarf branch? 13:49:27 A bunch of monsters... also a layout? 13:49:30 Cryp71c: yes 13:50:08 not sure if that's still a good idea, but we should either: 1. give it a try mostly as-is, 2. do some redesign, 3. do nothing and let it rot 13:50:34 1+2, imo 13:50:38 well, quite a few monsters do have novel code, mostly spells 13:50:40 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 13:50:58 kilobyte: if we keep the code, we should enable the branch in trunk. 13:51:09 but I doubt the balance is that good 13:51:09 Otherwise it is useless: no testing, no feedback. 13:51:25 kilobyte: wasn't good for the longest time in Shoals either 13:52:07 there was a slew of bugs related to monsters using rods -- regressions were fixed but the new functionality remains untested 13:53:20 a cowardly route could be making the new monsters temporarily spawn sometimes in D and see if we will see lots of crashes, but that's probably not much safer than just enabling the whole branch 13:53:23 ouch 13:53:33 yes, probably 13:53:50 I mean, we had crashes when monsters tried to throw staves, etc 13:53:50 I wasn't happy with all of his monsters, but rod using monsters is probably okay. 13:54:38 that could suggest doing 2 (redesign) 13:55:20 1. would consist of reviewing rewards and total exp (kind of what jpeg did to Lair) and enabling the thing 13:56:10 but that can be a waste of time if the design is to change significantly 13:56:19 indeed 13:56:52 I am a bit wary to spend devteam effort on outside content, tbh 13:57:15 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 13:57:22 since no one of you seems to go with 3., let's decide: is the current design _mostly_ good with changes that don't turn it inside out, or should it be reworked at a basic level 13:58:18 let me look at the wiki 13:58:39 the actual spells are useful... they are not actual new stuff but mostly giving monsters player spells 13:58:50 which is good even if just for ghosts 13:59:07 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 13:59:10 so there is not a lot of waste even if we throw everything from the actual branch away 13:59:46 afaik, there's basically new monsters? 13:59:58 And some items, but those met opposition already back then. 14:01:00 the ring of charms is in (as a fixedart), the casket of three fates is not 14:01:20 and if blue_anna won't return, I won't miss the casket the slightest 14:01:27 :) 14:03:09 so who all from dev is still active? Obviously by is gone? blue_anna? Seems like a few people haven't been around for a while (myself included, until now) 14:03:22 kilobyte has been at least 14:04:21 me, galahar, due, dolorous 14:04:50 kilobyte: fwiw the actual branch sounds like a joke. the nisses, the monster weights, etc. 14:05:17 i have not cared enough to download the code to try it, though 14:05:33 !seen blue_anna 14:05:34 I last saw blue_anna at Thu Sep 23 23:51:01 2010 UTC (3w 6d 19h 14m 33s ago) quitting with message Quit: Saliendo. 14:05:39 Eronarn: in other words, you don't like the design -- a valid opinion 14:06:04 kilobyte: well, some parts of it are conceptually fine, i just think the implementation sounds very botched 14:06:18 I was never up to date on the design of Dwarf, so..I can't comment on it 14:06:25 -!- galehar has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:06:38 the reliance on myth is also not so great, i think 14:06:56 Eronarn: have you read that comic by Kaja Foglio I linked to from the wiki? It's just several pages and shows all the monsters but trollkonor with images. 14:06:58 Not sure how many people I would be representing, but for me I'd prefer to see spider than dwarf 14:06:59 yes, blue_anna went overboard there 14:07:12 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 14:07:16 Spider seems quite similar to Lair 14:07:16 galehar: hi! 14:07:19 no, but it's not so much that i can't go look these things up 14:07:25 Not that that's reason enough not to consider it as a branch 14:07:32 but rather that it's a heavily myth based branch, apparently, when most stuff in crawl is... not 14:07:32 casmith789: new branches go in as they come 14:07:43 re 14:07:44 so I understand the preference is for "2. redesign", right? 14:07:52