00:31:06 -!- MadCoyote has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:31:48 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:41:45 -!- MadCoyote has joined ##crawl-dev 00:59:32 -!- OG17 has quit [Quit: OG17] 01:01:49 -!- OG17 has joined ##crawl-dev 02:02:36 -!- kilobyte has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:03:27 -!- dpeg has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:09:48 -!- Giomancer has quit [Quit: Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach him how to fish, and he will sit in a boat and drink beer all day] 02:20:08 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 02:32:55 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:35:06 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 02:39:45 -!- Galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 03:00:01 -!- yohan14 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:16:36 -!- kilobyte has joined ##crawl-dev 03:23:31 Moin! 03:23:42 hey kilobyte? 03:23:56 hi napking 03:24:13 have you got an idea how to make gretell announce the new builds (cdo & mingw) - which I have automated via cronjob now? :) 03:24:22 Moin due! What's up :) 03:25:43 maybe make it check a folder for messages to announce in text-files? i wouldn't have a clue how to do it otherwise.. 03:26:45 for the record: 03:26:49 crawl@ipx14623:~> crontab -l 03:26:49 # m h dom mon dow command 03:26:49 15 6 * * 1,4,6 /home/services/crawl/bin/update-mingw-all-trunk.sh quiet 03:26:49 45 6 * * 1 /home/services/crawl/bin/update-cdo-trunk.sh quiet 03:26:52 --- 03:30:01 -!- Galehar has quit [*.net *.split] 03:39:46 -!- monky has quit [Quit: what] 03:59:29 -!- Xiberia has joined ##crawl-dev 04:01:28 -!- Xiberia has quit [Client Quit] 04:02:59 !tell greensnark Could use some help to make Gretell do automated announcements :) 04:02:59 Napkin: OK, I'll let greensnark know. 04:29:31 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:38:41 Napkin: Gretell already is fed data somehow 04:39:17 like, it receives info about new player deaths 04:42:14 indeed 04:42:54 it's just more of the same 04:43:05 AFAIK, henzell and gretell are watching the logfiles written by crawl 04:43:20 you'll probably want another channel 04:43:47 but if it's watching two files (log, milestones), it can watch a third one 04:44:23 i'm not saying it's hard to implement - i'm just not that familiar to perl 04:45:10 I could let the scripts write to ~/source/announcements.log and have it be watched by Gretell 04:46:26 Napkin, don't be sad about not knowing perl. being good at perl and keeping one's sanity is almost as hard as doing farming in nethack and keeping one's sanity 04:46:38 lol 04:46:52 hey, what's wrong with perl? 04:47:07 and I admit having done some scripted mummy farming in Crawl, too 04:48:26 So I'm renaming giant snails to agate snails. 04:48:50 kilobyte: nothing's wrong with perl. It's a great language. the only one I know that made braindumps executable 04:51:24 you may laugh, but the best language I've ever seen is LPC, something implemented only for MUD servers 04:51:56 halfway between C and Perl 04:52:22 the best language I've ever seen is Lisp, but I can't use it, as I'm not enlightened 04:53:18 C syntax, but constructs like strings (sane and efficient, unlike C++), arrays as lists, mappings (hashes), functionals 04:53:44 C++ is insanely wordy, Perl is hard to read -- while LPC is both concise and straightforward 04:53:54 03due * r135056399614 10/crawl-ref/source/ (22 files in 8 dirs): Implement snail/turtle shells, rename giant snails -> agate snails. 04:54:08 ok, perhaps save for complex functionals, but hey 04:55:00 C++ is also extremely hard to get right when you start to use the advanced features (not even talking about how long it took the compiler programmer to get that features right!) 04:55:17 so LPC is a C-like scripting language? 04:56:40 and ridiculous support for slices... like, something like: in an array of arrays of mappings of strings, take elements 5..end of the top array, first element of the lower array, elements indexed by "foo" in the mapping, and inside that, the first letter of the strings... and that's a lvalue 04:57:04 -!- cw_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:57:27 bhaak: compiled, but it has heavyweight objects that are compilation units 04:57:30 nice, and probably could blow the mind of some people. :) 04:57:43 One less boring monster! 04:58:36 ie, you compile each object separately -- but trying to reference one that's not currently loaded will trigger a compile+load 04:58:38 are you suggesting adding a new role that fights monsters with overly complex programming code? 04:58:49 heh 04:59:38 omg - so many "Boring Uniques" :-O 04:59:44 due: I want a blank trap that, when triggered, calls a lua function. What would be the best way to do so? 04:59:52 @dump Napkin 04:59:52 http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/0.7/Napkin/Napkin.txt 05:00:25 kilobyte: I've tried that. 05:00:33 kilobyte: But that was a while ago. i should try again 05:01:11 !cdo 05:01:11 Orshelack (L13 @ Lair:2, T:25351), Baraton (L11 @ D:9, T:12637), PapaBlues (L4 @ D:3, T:4525), Sleece (L2 @ D:2, T:996), Zicher (L1 @ D:1, T:0), sprintdoc (L1 @ D:1, T:0) 05:01:22 @players 05:01:22 Orshelack (L13 @ Lair:2, T:25351), Baraton (L11 @ D:9, T:12637), PapaBlues (L4 @ D:3, T:4525), Sleece (L2 @ D:2, T:996), Zicher (L1 @ D:1, T:0), sprintdoc (L1 @ D:1, T:0) 05:03:08 03Mu * r5cc02bb80d30 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/sprint/sprint_mu.des: Place a few scrolls of amnesia in sprint_mu 05:11:55 -!- cw_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:21:04 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:44:09 -!- Gretell has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:46:03 -!- Gretell has joined ##crawl-dev 05:46:36 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 05:51:21 ok.. beep me, if Gretell explodes 06:01:45 03kilobyte * r4e51379178e0 10/crawl-ref/source/ (8 files in 6 dirs): s/folder/directory/, the former is Microsoft-centric. 06:01:45 03kilobyte * rd2ac95e13ba2 10/crawl-ref/source/ (12 files in 6 dirs): Make the iron grate an actual feature rather than a Lua redefinition. 06:01:45 03kilobyte * r51fea9fa6129 10/crawl-ref/source/ (beam.cc mon-stuff.cc spl-damage.cc teleport.cc): Allow to dig/LRD/shatter iron grates. No stone of earth, passwall or boring beetles. 06:01:45 03kilobyte * ra350c2571cc8 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-book.cc: Felids: reenable Canine Familiars. Kitteh luvs goggie, after all. 06:01:51 03kilobyte * red2f23e45316 10/crawl-ref/source/ (directn.cc enum.h traps.cc): Blank traps: enum and name. 06:01:51 03kilobyte * rfa5af93abd9d 10/crawl-ref/source/ (enum.h traps.cc traps.h): Remove some duplicated logic. 06:03:30 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 06:03:56 Goggie? 06:04:18 kilobyte: Have you done the mechanism for blank traps orisit just the defines? 06:07:12 due: I wanted to ask you for hints before researching it myself 06:07:31 of course, that empty commit wasn't supposed to go forward, but hey 06:08:16 the idea is to have a trap that merely triggers lua 06:08:33 uses: grate traps, caskets spawning zombies, spiders, etc 06:10:33 * due nods. 06:10:37 Yes, I intended to do that. 06:12:42 The best way to do it would be to create a new marker type... 06:13:05 Which would just consist of hooks to various functions 06:13:09 I see it should be enough to copy door_opened 06:13:30 ("try_untrap", "player_trigger_trap", "monster_trigger_trap") 06:13:56 "succeed_untrap" 06:15:00 Actually, ammunition and all that 06:15:03 that's more functionality that I was thinking about 06:15:19 Well, the solution is to make the initial traps un-untrappable. 06:15:34 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 06:18:34 Windows development builds on CDO updated to: 06:19:16 Napkin: ---^ 06:19:46 empty :D 06:19:57 Yes, i noticed. 06:20:52 Windows development builds on CDO updated to: 0.8.0-a0-2084-gfa5af93 06:21:10 ok, seems to wok :) 06:21:33 wokwokwok 06:22:15 Yaaaay. 06:23:01 let's try trunk on CDO 06:23:13 Wheee 06:26:55 Unstable branch on CDO updated to: 0.8.0-a0-2084-gfa5af93 (31.7) 06:28:27 good, good 06:28:33 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:28:34 -!- TGWi has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:28:58 -!- Gretell has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:29:16 -!- Gretell has joined ##crawl-dev 06:33:09 @??cherub 06:33:09 Cherub (16A) | Speed: 15 | HD: 12 | Health: 84-121 | AC/EV: 10/20 | Damage: 25, 10 | Flags: 08holy, see invisible, fly, !sil | Res: 06magic(128), 10elec++, 03poison | XP: 2089 | Sp: minor healing. 06:33:11 @??holy dragon 06:33:21 Hm. 06:34:18 due: the monster db isn't updated automatically... but it should have holy dragons already 06:35:15 Yes, that was my thought. 06:35:22 They have holy damage though so it's possible... 06:35:28 @??agate snail 06:35:28 unknown monster: "agate snail" 06:35:36 Hasn't been updated yet. 06:36:05 I just updated it, but I see it didn't recompile the changed files 06:36:41 I'm doing "make clean" then recompiling it again. 06:38:30 make install trunk? 06:42:38 @??agate snail 06:42:39 agate snail (09j) | Speed: 4 | HD: 14 | Health: 77-102 | AC/EV: 7/2 | Damage: 18 | Flags: amphibious | Res: 06magic(56) | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 83. 06:42:52 @??holy dragon 06:43:16 it segfaults 06:43:25 @??mennas 06:43:31 same thing? 06:44:48 What's it segfault on? 06:44:57 Holy damage? 06:45:11 Hm, Mennas doesn't have holy damage. 06:45:29 @??ophan 06:45:31 I thought mennas didn't work because he changes colour or something like that 06:45:33 Ah. 06:45:41 I'm guessing itt's the ETC_colours? 06:45:45 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.10/20100914125854]] 06:45:46 @??goledn eye 06:45:46 unknown monster: "goledn eye" 06:45:48 @??golden eye 06:45:51 Yeah. 06:46:01 do holy dragons have the same thing? 06:46:10 Yup. 06:48:59 the segfault is in the new elemental colour code 06:49:06 @??seraph 06:49:06 unknown monster: "seraph" 06:49:40 @??shedu 06:49:41 shedu (16H) | Speed: 25 | HD: 13 | Health: 91-130 | AC/EV: 2/10 | Damage: 19, 23 | Flags: 08holy, fly | Res: 06magic(52), 03poison | XP: 3072. 06:54:01 speed 25 good grief 06:54:30 Hm, I didn't set that 06:54:32 @??harpy 06:54:38 I think Ijust copied harpies orsomething like that. 06:55:14 -!- Napkin has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:55:28 -!- Napkin has joined ##crawl-dev 06:55:50 harpy (03H) | Speed: 25 | HD: 7 | Health: 24-52 | AC/EV: 2/10 | Damage: 19, 14 | Flags: fly | Res: 06magic(28), 03poison | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 623. 06:56:08 aw silver stars don't do anything :P 06:56:23 -!- cw_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:57:21 @??holy dragon 06:57:22 holy dragon (08D) | Speed: 15 | HD: 18 | Health: 91-140 | AC/EV: 10/15 | Damage: 35, 20 | Flags: 08holy, sense invisible, fly, !sil | Res: 06magic(168) | XP: 5763 | Sp: holy breath (3d36). 06:57:29 @??holy dragon 06:57:30 holy dragon (08D) | Speed: 15 | HD: 18 | Health: 91-140 | AC/EV: 10/15 | Damage: 35, 20 | Flags: 08holy, sense invisible, fly, !sil | Res: 06magic(168) | XP: 5763 | Sp: holy breath (3d36). 06:57:30 @??holy dragon 06:57:31 holy dragon (08D) | Speed: 15 | HD: 18 | Health: 91-140 | AC/EV: 10/15 | Damage: 35, 20 | Flags: 08holy, sense invisible, fly, !sil | Res: 06magic(168) | XP: 5763 | Sp: holy breath (3d36). 06:57:31 @??holy dragon 06:57:32 holy dragon (08D) | Speed: 15 | HD: 18 | Health: 91-140 | AC/EV: 10/15 | Damage: 35, 20 | Flags: 08holy, sense invisible, fly, !sil | Res: 06magic(168) | XP: 5763 | Sp: holy breath (3d36). 06:57:48 static colour 06:57:51 is CDO trunk broken? it throws me an assert before I get to the character selection menu? 06:57:52 @??shining eye 06:57:52 shining eye (13G) | Speed: 7 | HD: 10 | Health: 39-71 | AC/EV: 3/1 | Flags: see invisible, lev, !sil | Res: 13magic(immune), asphyx | Chunks: 06mutagenic | XP: 546 | Sp: polymorph other. 07:05:11 too bad the name golden dragon is taken :P 07:12:45 03kilobyte * r400869f147cc 10/crawl-ref/source/describe.cc: Fix the trap name assert. Doesn't yet name them properly. 07:12:45 kilobyte: are you going to fix it? 07:13:02 "ASSERT(NUM_TRAPS == sizeof(trap_names) / sizeof(*trap_names)) in 'describe.cc' at line 535 failed." 07:17:56 Unstable branch on CDO updated to: 0.8.0-a0-2085-g400869f (31.7) 07:20:07 -!- jld has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:20:19 -!- jld has joined ##crawl-dev 07:20:20 danke schön 07:20:45 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:27:04 -!- Guest89955 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:27:04 -!- Guest89955 has joined ##crawl-dev 07:27:27 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 08:07:32 -!- Galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 08:07:41 hi 08:08:22 kilobyte: did you notice that scrolls of curse jewellery are not randomly generated? 08:08:47 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 08:09:25 Galehar: I believe that was intentional. 08:13:23 really? ok 08:17:00 unless we specifically want to alter the id game, the scroll is happy as Ashenzari-only 08:17:24 of course, the former is not out of the question 08:26:17 Well, I don't see a problem with altering the id game. We already did it a bit when we added the scroll of amnesia (which doesn't autoid if you don't know any spell) 08:26:37 I haven't tried Ash yet, I just noticed tgw comment on the wiki about the prayer being annoying 08:27:07 well, in first version, it converted the whole stack... 08:27:28 now it does it scroll by scroll so you get roughly the same amount of each 08:29:01 if we wanted to be nice, it could be the type the player has the least of... but that would lead to dropping/picking up the others to steer it the way you want 08:30:53 Oh god the monster movement code 08:30:55 it's HORRIFYING 08:31:08 I can't believe I read a thousand lines of code and understood *none* of them 08:31:35 Sleep instead. 08:31:49 well, maybe it should generate more curse jewellery than the others, because it is the only way to get them. 08:33:50 maybe 08:34:39 do we have any input about this from someone else? 08:35:07 but if you feel strongly about this, please change it 08:35:22 I'm just not convinced it's a problem yet 08:45:33 no, I don't feel strongly about it :) We'll wait for more feedback 08:53:37 ??git 08:53:38 git[1/2]: git clone git://crawl-ref.git.sourceforge.net/gitroot/crawl-ref/crawl-ref 08:53:42 ??git[2] 08:53:42 git[2/2]: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:help:git 08:54:17 Rar, my source is back up to date. 09:04:47 kilobyte: i just did a game with ash, and imo he has far more serious problems than scrolls 09:09:57 Alrighty, so what have I missed since I havn't really played since the tourney :P 09:13:47 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 09:13:50 Hello 09:13:52 dpeg! 09:13:57 hey 09:14:10 dpeg, I'm back, mostly...but IDK what's changed since I have been psuedo-innactive, what's changed since the tourney? 09:14:12 :P 09:14:33 Cryp71c: new god, new species, redone draconians 09:14:53 dpeg, what species? I didn't notice a new one on the char selection screen on trunk. 09:14:54 choice of future LOS still unclear 09:14:59 Cryp71c: Felids 09:15:06 !seen kilobyte 09:15:07 I last saw kilobyte at Mon Oct 18 13:35:23 2010 UTC (39m 44s ago) saying Im just not convinced its a problem yet on ##crawl-dev. 09:15:12 dpeg, lol, something we can always depend on: what LOS we're going to have. 09:15:27 the question of what LOS we're going to have** 09:15:28 sorry. 09:15:34 ??felids 09:15:35 I don't have a page labeled felids in my learndb. 09:15:37 ??felid 09:15:37 felid[1/4]: A cat race that can use no armour or weapon, or wands. They gain extra lives as they level up, though! Available in trunk. 09:15:46 hahahaha 09:16:23 Cryp71c: there are at least three serious options regarding LOS but one problem is that many proponents of one of them are fairly deeply entrenched... 09:16:28 Galehar and I are not =) 09:16:56 dpeg, what's the new third option? 09:17:08 iirc, only 2 were given serious consideration in august. 09:18:04 I'd says 1 is square, 2 is 1.4 diag and 3 is keep fixing the hybrid system 09:18:35 -!- dpeg has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:18:48 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 09:19:03 Galehar, I don't think you were around last time I was actually active here, do you have a particular section of the code/crawl that you prefer to work with or are particularly well versed on?' 09:20:13 Also, what advances have been made on the euclidean LOS that's bringing it closer to completion? 09:20:18 -!- kilobyte has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:20:23 I can see that's the one we're still using on Trunk, at least. 09:20:25 Well, I'm new here. I've done various stuff like fixing merfolk transforms, messing with spell noises and replaced selective amnesia by a scroll 09:20:37 lately I've been trying to improve tiles 09:20:43 Ah, that was done then? No more amnesia spell :( 09:20:57 yep 09:21:09 -!- kilobyte has joined ##crawl-dev 09:21:21 kilobyte, didn't you use to have a SPEn guide on learndb under your name? 09:21:42 Galehar, cool, was just curious, I try and keep tabs on all the devs so I know who's toes I'm stepping on when I break things ;) 09:22:09 kilobyte, nvm, was hyperbolic 09:22:15 regarding LOS, there is also the option to keep round LOS but either get rid of spell ranges completely or make them a lot more coarse. 09:22:44 Cryp71c: no more amnesia spell is an absolute gain 09:23:07 dpeg, I know, but it made my spen even easier :) 09:23:22 dpeg, how would removing spell ranges supposed to work? 09:23:25 Everything casts to LOS? 09:23:33 dpeg: no spell ranges and round LOS is half a fix. There's still the problem of shorter diagonals than orthogonals 09:24:13 the no spell ranges option seems to be removing a feature of the game (and probably buffing players at the same time) with no real benefit, in my opinion 09:24:37 casmith789: yes it removes something, but it would also fix several things 09:24:38 It still seems like square LOS is the easiest and most accurate fix...and the only counterarguement is that "its not how real world physics work" ... are there any other disadvantages of it? 09:25:08 yes, I think so 09:25:11 read the wiki page 09:26:05 Cryp71c: are there any ADVANTAGES? The problems that it is supposed to fix can be fixed in several other ways that share none of the disadvantages. 09:26:45 * casmith789 will not be drawn into this argument again 09:26:56 casmith789: you've started it, in a way 09:27:11 "no real benefit" 09:27:25 although Cryp71c immediately followed up 09:27:40 "...only counterargument" 09:27:56 Sorry to fester old wounds, just trying to catch up. ;) 09:28:41 kilobyte, the disadvantages are what I'm referring to, what does 7 distance square LOS create as far as problems go (major balance issues) 09:33:52 kilobyte: I'd like to make a case for skill swapping with Ash. Please disregard the blatant cricitism on the wiki =) 09:34:38 i'd like to make a case for canning the current ash design 09:34:53 i did a game to past the end of lair with him, ****** piety 09:35:18 it was actually even more boring than a game with sif or oka 09:35:39 there is almost zero interaction with ash, it doesn't feel like you are making any sacrifices at all 09:35:44 The god is not finished. 09:35:49 and it has all the problems of the old div school 09:36:00 except now you don't need to train anything to learn it 09:36:05 and it's on all the time 09:36:21 This statement is obviously wrong. It may have _some_ problems of the div school, but there are clearly Div school problems the god lacks. 09:36:24 Jesus 09:36:40 also, i'm aware the god is not finished 09:36:49 that's why i'm saying we should can the current ash design, not the god 09:37:01 the god still has cool flavor, but the current implementation is a trainwreck 09:37:23 -!- Eronarn was kicked from ##crawl-dev by dpeg [Mind your words.] 09:37:28 -!- Eronarn has joined ##crawl-dev 09:39:05 Any devs still around? 09:40:43 If players keep agitating the way they did on ##crawl, we can as well dispense with ##crawl-dev. 09:41:51 dpeg: I looked into skill swapping. There is an issue. We need a separate new form of menu. 09:42:09 it's quite straightforward in console, but I have no idea about tiles 09:42:33 kilobyte: I wouldn't worry about tiles.... they will come up with fitting solutions quickly and easily enough. 09:42:43 kilobyte: but why do we need a menu? 09:43:02 Wouldn't a skill screen where we just modify the second two last lines do the trickß 09:43:34 you need to add handling of mouse, etc 09:43:42 tiles people will do that 09:43:53 press 'ab' (this invokes the ability) --> skill screen with last line saying "Press the skill you want to learn!" 09:44:25 then wait for a skill to be chosen, display that in lightred and print new last line: "Select the skill to learn from!" etc. 09:44:38 If we want, there can be a prompt before doing the transaction. 09:44:46 dpeg, and yes, I'm back btw. 09:44:56 Cryp71c: cool, I like that :) 09:45:08 dpeg, like what? that I'm back :D 09:45:30 dpeg, admit it, you're lonely without me ;) 09:45:32 Yes! DS, unarmed combat aspects... you're needed :) 09:45:54 * dpeg fled from ##crawl some weeks ago. 09:46:03 dpeg, what's been going on there? 09:46:11 The same old QQ, but now on steroids? 09:46:53 Cryp71c: oh, nothing extreme, I just lack the time to repeat arguments over and over.... especially to a crowd so large. Also, some folks won't listen, which is fair enough, but I just can't keep going on :) 09:47:31 Cryp71c: it was another debate on xp/2 for summon kills which made me realise that ##crawl should be for and by players. 09:47:55 -!- kilobyte has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:48:01 -!- kilobyte has joined ##crawl-dev 09:48:34 kilobyte: wb. It's true I never outlined how a skill swapping interface could look like. Do you see what I meant ^ ? 09:49:16 03dolorous * rcb4e4dcd0f90 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: Really mark all tentacle types as levitating. 09:50:03 dpeg, ah, yeah. I've never been fond of fielding dev-related questions (that have long since been answered here) in ##crawl 09:51:50 Cryp71c: I got something out of the discussion: players like elliptic explained to me that killstealing is a much bigger problem than xp loss itself, which I understand. 09:53:26 dpeg, yeah, but that's a tactic that requires a great deal of attention and effort, and has to be done throughout the ENTIRE game...since if you fail to train the skills (either fighting and a weapon skill, or some spell schools) necessary to deliver the final blows safely, you risk death. 09:54:01 Perhaps there is slight issue to it, especially with bolt spells that can be used safely from behind a friendly monster. 09:54:57 -!- kilobyte has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:55:00 Cryp71c: I think it's more a psychological problem... as zipcode pointed out, summoners don't need much xp anyway. It's just that players feel they're robbed off xp yet killstealing allows them to rightfully get it back. 09:55:36 dpeg, right, then the question is whether or not that extra xp is actually doing them much good, since they don't need it anyways. 09:56:11 I mean, its always useful, but a careless player will almost always get themselves into a lethal situation, and good players will rarely kill themselves in such a manner. 09:56:35 Regardless of whether or not they've been so thorough as to killsteal (and thus, have much more xp than normal) and level other skills. 09:59:11 I'm not sure how viable a pure summoner will be after a summon cap, the player will have to get stuck in and "killsteal" then 10:00:34 is summon cap implemented yet? or planned 10:00:56 just planned 10:04:40 -!- kilobyte has joined ##crawl-dev 10:04:49 wb 10:05:10 -!- dpeg_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:05:33 Issues with connectivity, boys? 10:05:37 yeah :( 10:05:54 everything from the last ten minutes missing 10:05:56 but only to certain places 10:06:06 an alternate server would probably help 10:06:43 are aux effects for unarmed attacks still implemented, or did they get revertted? 10:06:50 I remember I left them in a mostly balanced, but not perfect state. 10:07:10 I cannot say. 10:07:31 I could just check the source, I suppose. 10:07:43 UC was strong even before the boosts, so there was talk of removing them, but I don't think anything happened. 10:07:48 -!- enne has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:08:03 yeah, even without claws or anything, UC is insane 10:08:05 they don't seem even noticable 10:08:13 bleed does literally nothing 10:08:31 st_: it does percentage damage 10:08:45 3% of max hp apparently 10:08:50 st_, the problem with bleed is that its quite useless for weak monsters, but scales very quickly as monster hp increases. 10:09:05 I thought I had it doing more than that... 10:09:08 per level... and you get lots of bleed levels since they stack 10:09:14 ah, yeah..that was it. 10:09:16 3% per stack. 10:10:22 kilobyte: the insanity of UC is a problem with the skill, imo 10:10:34 dpeg_: since there are problems with talking right now, I guess I'll go ahead with that anti-xp-sniping idea we talked about a few weeks ago 10:10:37 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 10:11:48 kilobyte: anti-xp-sniping? 10:11:58 I partially implemented grate traps, but I'll better show the code to due or someone first, since my lua is pretty lousy and I don't want to leave bad code 10:12:29 dpeg_: letting summons do the fighting, then trying to get the death blow 10:12:32 kilobyte: once we're fine with the grate traps, it's vault making time 10:12:45 -!- enne has joined ##crawl-dev 10:12:46 dpeg_: or letting them do fight out of LOS 10:12:56 kilobyte: ah... you could highlight on the summon wiki page which version you want to choose 10:13:41 dpeg_: your idea was to give 0 xp out of LOS, mine was to do that by counting damage dealt and if you did 10% summons 90%, you get 55% xp. 10:14:01 kilobyte: the less radical one (yours) is a better start 10:14:16 we don't want players make run after summons leaving LOS 10:14:31 the damage counter would accumulate... x2 for damage done by you, x1 for summons in LOS, x0 for summons out of LOS and for other sources 10:14:41 ah, so I can skip that for now 10:15:05 but I thought we decided on your version with my modification 10:15:13 yes, taht's okay 10:15:50 it's an one line difference anyway 10:16:29 in the damage accumulation function, we'd add: if (you.see_cell(victim.pos()) ... 10:27:21 i think we should remove the UC aux effects until we figure out whether we want aux effects on all weapons 10:27:37 -!- valrus has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:27:51 it doesn't feel right for only UC aux to matter like that 10:27:57 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 10:29:00 -!- valrus has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:29:02 -!- valrus_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:29:31 kilobyte: i think a percent tied to damage is okay, but one thing to note is that your summons can do negligible damage but still distract or block enemies (think spammals) 10:29:59 so it's a good start, but i still personally favor looking at the number of summons used in a fight (possibly a formula taking into account both?) 10:32:06 capping summons will probably come 10:32:19 but that's unrelated to xp/2 and killstealing 10:33:32 if you use summons to distract the monster and then deal the damage yourself, you should get all the XP. You don't reduce the XP for enchanters or stabbers because the monster is sleeping or confused or whatever. 10:33:55 Galehar: yes, but with summons you can get the monsters dead while you're away 10:34:45 yes, and kilobyte proposal deal with that. I was answering to Eronarn 10:35:23 ok 10:35:33 Eronarn, unless the plan has changed, there is the distinct intention to add aux effects on some weapons. 10:35:49 I know dpeg had specifically envisioned bleeding on bladed weapons, particularly axes 10:35:55 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 10:36:32 but that has a much broader effect on balance than aux effect bleeding, which serves as a nice testbed for bleed balance, among other things. 10:36:54 s/aux effect/aux uc attack effect 10:37:47 Galehar: i don't really like that argument; we also don't reduce XP for sticky flame or clouds even though it's not 'you' dealing the damage :P 10:38:23 Cryp71c: right, that is what i mean - 'aux effects on weapons' has been on the to-do list for a loooong time but there's been no great proposal 10:38:30 so it feels strange that it was tacked on to UC so quickly 10:39:07 not strange: we want to differentiate horns, hooves, etc. 10:39:34 dpeg_: yes, but i mean that it's strange that we did it without also doing other weapons, or at least having a good idea of where to go next with other weapons 10:39:43 i don't think we're any closer on the 'other weapons' side than we were a year ago 10:41:02 Eronarn, aux uc effects were only implemented in july? and I've been away since august, so... 10:42:07 But the aux effects were implemented on UC to a) go ahead and differentiate / add flavor to UC aux attacks b) begin collecting testbed data on the balance implications and feasibility of implementing aux effects on a variety of weapons, and c) implement bleeding for future use by monsters against players. 10:42:35 None of those necessitate (and a couple are preconditions to) implementing weapon aux effects. 10:42:53 sure, i don't have a problem with b) 10:43:21 i just wouldn't want to see it hit a release with only aux on UC, and not on weapons 10:44:01 Eronarn, certainly, UC isn't in a release-balanced state either, imo. It just hasn't been gotten to; an issue hopefully I'll remedy with my return. 10:44:23 -!- monky has joined ##crawl-dev 10:44:49 Cryp71c: fwiw, i would like to see UC be much more based on st/dex 10:45:18 let high st unarmed users do as much as they're doing right now, but let high dex ones do grappling/throwing moves 10:45:42 Eronarn, I would support having str and dex weigh more heavily on UC combat than they are currently 10:45:55 I'm not so sure I would go so complex as to differentiate them so significantly from one another 10:45:55 -!- Galehar has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:46:13 Rather, I think it might be good to use as simple a system as str determins damage, dex determines accuracy. 10:46:26 or at least, each stat contributes to each combat aspect in some form. 10:46:30 well, there's already the differing unarmed titles, so it's made clear to the player which 'side' you're on 10:46:41 Eronarn, unarmed tiles? 10:46:50 Sorry, I don't play tiles. 10:46:52 if you have higher str you get titles like Heavyweight Champion 10:46:57 if you have higher dex you get titles like Insei 10:47:21 ahhhh, right. 10:47:34 thought you said 'tiles'...I'm dumb :P 10:47:51 One thing I've noticed is that crawl is gradually becoming more and more complex, which isn't something that is necessarily good, imo. 10:47:56 then what with titles like Sabretooth? :p 10:47:59 of course there is the issue of players who have both - so i don't think it should be a binary 10:48:12 Cryp71c: good point, we forget it too much 10:48:56 but i think dex fits better with aux features than with acc (it can do acc too, but i don't think acc is enough by itself) 10:49:33 kilobyte, its part of my "second thoughts" on the aux effects, since implementing them on UC for players necessitates implementing them for monsters against players, then for weapons, and enemy weapons...its a system which perhaps deserves some perspective. 10:49:51 yes, that's why i want it to be a relatively top-down approach before it's implemented 10:49:59 or at least, before it goes into a release version 10:50:33 fwiw, i think that we should not have every monster able to use aux effects - we can save it for only interesting or tougher ones 10:50:41 Eronarn, I think we can implement some aux effects its mostly bleed which has such large balance issues and is causing this massive cascade of implementations. 10:51:40 Since, if you eliminate bleed, you can effectively not implement weapon based aux effects, and mini-stun / bypass armor are effects that are much less noticable, and can either be balanced around, or implemented for monsters against players. 10:51:52 Cryp71c: have you considered making bleed just do - half of the damage caused by the attack that caused bleeding, then half again, and so on? 10:52:22 irl, a bleeding wound to the right area will leave you *dead* in under 10 seconds 10:53:07 Eronarn, I hadn't considered that kind of effect, it sounds interesting...re bleeding IRL, I try to detach concepts from crawl to RL conventions :) 10:53:31 Having DCSS mimic RL conventions/physics, etc. is nice, but is not convenient for some / most applications. 10:53:32 yes, i don't think we should base design on emulating real life, just sometimes look to real life for inspiration 10:53:37 right 10:53:48 dpeg_, went silent? :( 10:54:16 the flat % of HP makes sense on paper, but as you note, the HP range is far too wide in crawl for it to work well 10:54:17 Cryp71c: no, too much going on here :) 10:54:20 (from like 4 to 700) 10:54:28 you get wounded with dirty claws, you get tetanus. Simple. 10:54:35 :) 10:54:53 kilobyte, :) 10:55:00 I don't get why bleeding should be unable to kill you, though 10:55:10 kilobyte: "Your claws are covered in filth" mutation. Sickens enemies if you bleed them! 10:55:12 kilobyte, I wanted it to be different from poison. 10:55:21 Is what it boils down to. 10:55:51 Plus its easier to balance it as a non-lethal effect, also gives a greater degree of freedom for powerfulness. 10:56:09 i don't think it's a bad thing if it's superficially similar to poison 10:56:23 Eronarn, its already superficially similar to poison, its a DOT effect. 10:56:54 well, poison is handled rather differently in terms of figuring out how to deal damage 10:56:54 potentially curable by healing pots 10:57:03 and takes longer 10:57:10 Well, yeah the amount of damage is different, but from a players perspective, they're quite similar in effect. 10:57:40 i think that's okay though; there isn't enough design space for each idea to be totally unique 10:58:33 if it just has different flavor, a different duration, and comes from different sources - that's already as different as, say, stone arrow from poison arrow 10:58:39 there's room enough for both 11:05:10 dpeg_, too much in here, or too much at your physical location? 11:07:44 Cryp71c: here :) 11:07:58 I think you got it all right, so I needn't to chime in. 11:10:35 claws ==> bleed ==> continuous damage all seem naturally enough 11:10:38 -!- gamefreak264 has joined ##crawl-dev 11:10:54 whether we want bleed to be more or less of a poison copy is a rather minor detail 11:11:08 could turn out that distinguishing them is not easily possible 11:13:06 !learn add bad_ideas elephants and dragons should lose trample after bleeding for a while because of losing weight 11:13:06 bad ideas[2499/2499]: elephants and dragons should lose trample after bleeding for a while because of losing weight 11:13:50 got to go 11:14:11 kilobyte: should I send my skill swap interface idea again by mail? 11:15:32 random question - would it be a contentious change if i submitted a patch that affected aux slot items? i would like to do the 'hard/soft' divide, and have a few of each option 11:15:46 bleeding should be healed by potions of heal wounds 11:15:51 you bleed from wounds, after all! 11:15:56 Zaba: true 11:16:14 although we might want to change terminology among !healing, !hw and /healing anyway 11:16:24 Eronarn: best to propose it first on the wiki 11:16:40 but in general, we want hard and soft versions for all armour spots, yeys 11:17:34 scarves! :3 11:17:39 what's the hard version for a cloak? 11:17:56 a barrel? 11:18:01 ortoslon: a heavy cloak 11:19:24 Are heavy cloaks implemented? 11:19:27 no 11:21:01 here is how I would do it: version with 0 AC, 0 EV, wearable regardless of muts. version with 1 AC, 0 EV, wearable with anything but 3 in a mut. version with 2 AC, -1 EV, not wearable if you have the mut 11:21:47 could be described as 'clothes', 'soft armor', 'hard armor' 11:22:38 possibly tweak the numbers around a bit, and look at how high each can be enchanted, how rare they are, which ego they can come with 11:22:54 -!- gamefreak264 has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:23:31 Eronarn, soft armor should be able to be more heavily enchanted, imo, and hard armor should provide more base armor 11:23:31 -!- gamefreak264 has joined ##crawl-dev 11:24:19 we need fewer (total) enchantment rather than more 11:24:44 one idea was that base armour can only be enchanted up to its natural AC value 11:29:01 yes, though i don't think this works well for aux items 11:29:25 no, aux going up to +2 is probably okay 11:30:46 yeah, it'd basically - be the same for many characters; for characters willing to take -1 EV and not have mutations, +1 AC; for characters who can't wear anything in a given slot, +2 AC (but only once they find a rarer item, of course) 11:31:47 we could maintain that centaurs/nagas/felids can't wear the 0-AC ones for some slots, since they're so far off on physiology 11:33:07 one good thing about three types here (or already of two types) is that it might make the question of what to enchant more interesting 11:35:33 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 11:36:04 my characters? nothing but scarves. 11:38:02 -!- dpeg_ has quit [Quit: away] 11:38:08 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 11:42:12 socks, sandals, boots? 11:45:38 footwraps 11:45:46 sollerets 11:45:58 dirt :) 11:46:39 i forget, is the cloak slot listed as 'back' or 'shoulders' 11:46:48 we could amke the hard version pauldrons 11:49:55 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:55:14 -!- gamefreak264 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:56:12 -!- gamefreak264 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:00:48 -!- ortoslon has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:04:42 -!- casmith789 is now known as testing 12:04:50 -!- testing is now known as casmith789 12:10:32 -!- Zao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:20:29 casmith789: I'm surprised that 'testing' isn't registered :P 12:20:37 it was 12:20:39 :) 12:30:43 -!- Zao has joined ##crawl-dev 12:42:31 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 12:48:59 -!- minced has joined ##crawl-dev 12:54:43 Hi. Would anyone here have a minute to help me with some git stuff? 12:55:06 minced, #git might be a more appropriate place 12:55:12 ok 13:27:53 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 13:28:06 -!- gamefreak264 has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:28:24 -!- gamefreak264 has joined ##crawl-dev 13:47:01 -!- enne has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:47:17 -!- enne has joined ##crawl-dev 13:49:55 -!- gamefreak264 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:57:40 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:02:21 -!- Pseudonut has joined ##crawl-dev 14:13:42 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 14:21:43 -!- minced has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:26:46 -!- TGWi is now known as TGWiglaf 14:31:37 -!- Giomancer has joined ##crawl-dev 14:32:59 Hm 14:33:10 Instead of a priest of Zin 14:33:20 Why not have a Magistrate? 14:33:30 * Giomancer muses 14:38:26 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 14:41:06 hi, galehar 14:41:20 hi 14:44:00 -!- TGWiglaf is now known as TGWayne 14:44:11 -!- Moriasc has joined ##crawl-dev 14:57:17 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:02:44 -!- galehar has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:05:37 -!- syllogism has quit [] 15:06:47 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 15:21:37 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 15:23:33 03raphael.langella * r0abe7ac4eaed 10/crawl-ref/ (9 files in 2 dirs): remove tile_align_at_top option (much better taskbar overlap fix) 15:32:13 -!- Moriasc has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.10/20100914125854]] 16:07:30 -!- eith_ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:16:48 -!- eith has quit [*.net *.split] 17:16:16 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 17:38:46 -!- eith_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:39:07 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:57:26 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.10/20100914125854]] 18:07:31 hi 18:07:47 hi 18:08:03 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:11:12 Wayne? 18:14:47 TGWiglaf is a silly name 18:50:38 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:06:01 Is it possible to influence a pan level's colour/spawns through a vault? Say I want to make an icy vault for pan, it would be weird if you got it on a balrug level 19:07:51 I imagine level colour is possible the same way it's done with the cerebov/lom/gloorx/mnoleg levels 19:08:06 (LROCKCOL & LFLOORCOL) 19:08:20 I'll try that 19:12:08 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 19:25:47 surely that only affects the vault? 19:26:19 cerebov isn't a whole level vault and still affects the whole level 19:27:03 LROCKCOL and LFLOORCOL does affect the whole level. 19:27:08 Hence why it is a level flag. 19:27:21 what happens if you use two 19:27:37 I don't know why would I know? 19:27:37 or: if the game picks two vaults that have it, whatever 19:27:49 It shouldn't 19:27:54 the l_uniq_tags should deal with that. 19:28:15 well obviously not with the current pan vaults 19:28:17 just curious 19:28:58 as far as I've seen there's only one vault generated on any pan level 19:29:15 It depends on the tagging. 19:29:32 I believe the level generator picks the vault first and then works on the monster list from that. 19:29:35 I could be lying/wrong. 19:30:30 makes sense, since the cerebov/lom/gloorx/mnoleg levels seem to have monsters like those in the vaults 19:39:06 they are hard coded in lev-pand.cc 19:39:23 Could possibly be luafied then. 19:39:25 Anyway, I leave. 19:44:42 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 20:00:19 -!- monky has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:05:11 hey due 20:05:25 boo, he left 20:05:27 don't make it bad 20:13:56 -!- Pseudonut has joined ##crawl-dev 20:14:50 Wensley: <3 20:25:26 -!- Wensley has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:38:38 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:42:42 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 20:49:52 -!- upsy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:03:02 -!- blackpenguin has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:09:25 -!- blackpenguin has joined ##crawl-dev 22:41:04 -!- monky has joined ##crawl-dev 23:12:59 -!- bhaak has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:14:00 -!- bhaak has joined ##crawl-dev 23:36:26 -!- Giomancer has quit [Quit: REALITY.SYS Corrupted: Re-boot universe? 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