00:04:18 03dolorous * r815fcf11aaf8 10/crawl-ref/source/ (cloud.cc mon-act.cc): Comment fixes. 00:04:28 03dolorous * rc4ae2df07a8f 10/crawl-ref/source/cloud.cc: Add minor cosmetic fix. 00:09:21 -!- heteroy has joined ##crawl-dev 00:11:17 should I edit the other gods page of the wiki with a god suggestion or is there a better place? 00:11:33 If it's brainstorm:gods:god then go ahead 00:12:25 as a new page or do you mean "other"? 00:12:44 If the page you're editing is in the brainstorm, then go ahead. 00:12:50 If not then you need to crfeate a brainstorm page, I think? 00:13:45 I'm not sure if I can create a page. I only see an option to edit 00:13:54 Create is open to everyone now, I think. 00:14:50 ah i guess i can only create a new page if i try to visit it first 00:16:30 due: I tried to help UbAh the other day but failed. 00:17:41 hey sorear, I was able to figure out why it failing but I dont know where to get the fiels needed for the build 00:18:24 ??git 00:18:24 git[1/2]: git clone git://crawl-ref.git.sourceforge.net/gitroot/crawl-ref/crawl-ref 00:18:27 they are missing from the tar ball so I sent neunon a tell and have been checking in from time to time 00:18:36 I've never used the tarball 00:18:40 me neither 00:18:41 git wouldnt build for me either 00:18:49 same missing files 00:18:50 really? 00:18:57 okay, are you compiling the contribs? 00:19:08 yes 00:19:16 strange. 00:19:39 actually I didnt do that in the git version let me give it a go 00:20:07 did you run "git submodule update --init" like the documentation says to? 00:20:11 yep 00:20:24 then the files are missing in your OS, not in Crawl 00:20:36 I moved to a more common distro also 00:20:40 I am on fedora now 00:20:46 please put a COMPLETE failure log on a pastebij 00:21:02 pastebij? 00:21:15 pastebin 00:21:22 sorear its multiple distros 00:21:37 not familure with pastebin sry 00:25:42 "argh, why won't this work the same way it did on the other server even though it's the same db dump! it's almost like there's some... code... that didn't update..." 00:25:59 * Eronarn runs svn update, walks over to bed, flops 00:29:02 http://pastebin.org/166195 00:29:16 had to look up what it was 00:29:50 I am running maintenance tonigth so I will be around for at least an hour 00:30:57 SDL.a is the only error? 00:31:18 moin guys 00:31:39 Oh 00:31:46 Looks like your SDLs aren't compiling. 00:32:09 Do you have MESA or opengl installed? 00:32:35 the original error is X11/Xlib.h 00:32:43 he doesn't have libx11-dev installed 00:32:47 missing: libx11-dev 00:33:23 missing: mesa-common-dev or libgl1-nvidia-dev or similar for GL/gl.h 00:34:11 I hate the fucking differnetiation between normal libraries and dev libraries. 00:34:16 also: 00:34:17 > apt-file search X11/Xatom.h 00:34:17 x11proto-core-dev: /usr/include/X11/Xatom.h 00:34:44 and: 00:34:45 > apt-file search GL/glu.h 00:34:45 libglu1-mesa-dev: /usr/include/GL/glu.h 00:34:50 due: let's move Crawl to a language tat doesn't make it 00:35:08 Name one? 00:35:11 you have no x development packages installed at all, UbAh, I'm afraid 00:35:37 C# 00:35:43 pfui! 00:35:44 I have the SDL packages... what am I missing? 00:35:50 sdl-dev 00:36:17 you need those -dev packages to actually compile something against 00:36:24 k found it 00:36:34 the SDL packages itself are only needed when running something 00:37:06 pfui? 00:37:20 ~~ bah! 00:37:29 ah 00:37:31 pfuinapking! 00:37:34 * due cuddles the napking. 00:37:36 yes! 00:37:37 :D 00:37:41 Napkin: Did you see that you can now get chased by doors? :D 00:37:42 !coffee due 00:37:42 * Henzell hands due a cup of cappuccino, brewed by Nikola. 00:37:42 @??Door mimic 00:37:43 door mimic (15+) | Speed: 10 | HD: 8 | Health: 29-59 | AC/EV: 5/1 | Damage: 1208(poison), 12, 12 | Flags: 11non-living | Res: 06magic(32), 05fire, 02cold, 10elec++, 03poison | XP: 466. 00:37:47 haha! 00:37:54 It. Is. So. Funny. 00:37:58 niiice :D 00:38:22 due: xom now needs effects to turn mimics into features and vice versa 00:38:28 Eronarn: yup 00:38:34 Eronarn: and also vaults made entirely of mimics. :D 00:38:39 and traps and doors skills affecting shit. 00:38:58 due: can there be multiple mimics in one tile? 00:39:16 Eronarn: stop feeding him! ;> 00:39:23 No, unfortunately. 00:39:28 I haven't even looked at tiles yet. 00:39:41 he meant in one place 00:39:45 do I need the dev libs for all the requirments? 00:39:48 Yes 00:40:20 for the pastebin entry you did, you need at least the ones mentioned 00:40:23 Napkin: yeah, but him mentioning tiles made me think of the fact that I've no idea if these will even *compile* in tiles. 00:40:34 the pastebin is cut at the end though - play it safe 00:40:38 got those and ran into new errors 00:40:42 You developers certainly plot evil schemes to torture the players. 00:40:52 gamefreak264: Shhh, nobody's supposed to know. 00:40:54 show us again, UbAh 00:41:08 here of pastbin? 00:41:12 gamefreak264: My next plan is "living" flesh walls. 00:41:15 UbAh: pastebin, always pastebin 00:41:15 Generally, if you need libfoo to run something, you need libfoo-dev to compile it 00:41:18 kk 00:41:20 due: I'll need some...erm... motivation to ensure that doesn't happen. 00:41:38 gamefreak264: I won't stab you in the face and code the game specifically to give you bad luck. 00:41:53 fr: bad luck spell 00:41:57 due: ;o 00:42:25 http://pastebin.org/166200 00:42:28 somebody needs to get off their bum and finish implementing !send 00:43:21 UbAh: sudo apt-get install apt-file 00:43:23 agree 00:43:27 libesd0-dev: /usr/include/esd.h 00:43:37 after "apt-file search esd.h" 00:43:38 ok I should have known that 00:43:38 a crawl mode like sprint with !send implemented would be nifty 00:43:45 monky: strongly agree 00:43:47 not an apt distro 00:43:56 not ubunto or deb based 00:43:58 :o 00:44:01 monky: Dungeon Slog 00:44:08 Isn't there one for yum or rpm or whatever the other ones are? 00:44:10 you have to fight EVERYONE AT ONCE 00:44:27 (only one person allowed to play at a time, everyone else is a hostile spectator) 00:44:34 yep just saying incase sorear was speaking to me 00:44:53 (in fact... we could use the multirobin dtach stuff for that pretty well, heh) 00:45:28 I have to start my DHCP maintenance in 15 minutes but once that starts I should be back 00:45:35 crawl mode with a player and a pool of hostile spectators; spectators can be assigned to control monsters? 00:45:41 another interesting thought would be 00:45:45 spectators can take over gods 00:45:49 xom 00:45:58 and they get abilities based on that god's ability 00:46:17 so it's player + one god buddy, against all the other gods who want to fight the player 00:47:12 one advantage of not directly having the spectators control monsters is that you can do things more asynchronously 00:47:17 that last one is a stupid distro error, UbAh - when getting sdl-dev it should have taken all dependency development packages too 00:47:19 damnit I am stupid I read the install but missed it saying dev libraries 00:47:19 Eronarn: Player B invokes Trog wrath on turn 1. Problem solved. 00:47:22 so xom can 'send bees' 00:47:30 but he doesn't need to actually control them 00:47:49 dep hell was invented by redhat so thats fitting 00:48:23 UbAh: You using Slackware or something? :P 00:48:30 I see slackware users use that term alot 00:48:31 I was 00:48:32 sorear: yeah it'd have to be stuff more like "!send zombies" and if you use it too often it kicks you out and gives the god slot to someone else 00:48:41 UbAh: Yay, I'm a superb stereotyper! 00:48:52 I moved to fedora for a change just this weekend 00:49:00 Eronarn: monster controlling could work in a similar fashion; for example, a spectator could order a gnoll to be sure to zap its wand, or for cerebov to fire storm, but it doesn't have to happen immediately 00:49:06 vector lin to be exact 00:49:09 switching hells ;) 00:49:11 I guessed monky, too 00:49:15 but its just a gussied up slack 00:49:35 well i didnt want the stability hel of *buntu 00:49:55 but the large user base helps me search errors quicker 00:50:00 I've whatever hell archlinux has 00:50:01 so i may just go there 00:50:02 monky: it could be a turn based strategy for the one player, and a real time strategy for the other :O 00:50:02 on the other had - that's a reason people often hate debian based - packages have lots of dependencies 00:50:58 I was trying to convince sorear to use static libs included in the bin 00:51:08 but that didnt work so hot for me :-) 00:51:10 UbAh: Ypir 00:51:26 You're doing it wrong. I'm not in any way involved in the package creation. 00:51:31 mainly from my lack of knowing what I am talking about 00:51:58 wasn't it you and I who had the discussion as to why that doesnt happen often? 00:52:04 Yes 00:52:29 is it at least compiling now, UbAh? 00:52:31 Sometimes people can answer questions about things they don't do. 00:52:41 I am getting my dev packages 00:52:48 trying to race the clock 00:52:53 gotta work in 8 mins 00:53:02 well.. continue there ;> 00:53:17 i gotta work in 8 hours. maybe i should go to bed. 00:53:21 the fun won't run off ;) 00:53:22 DHCP, snmp and modem configs are simpler stuff for me so i should be able to have half an eye on this 00:53:35 hehe 00:53:46 monky: How would you describe the type of hell you're currently suffering? 00:53:57 to use Ubah's terminology 00:54:25 gamefreak264: not hellish at all 00:57:27 arch is one of those hells that doesnt come from a large familly of hells 00:57:35 based on CRUX right? 00:58:43 ok I gotta go, be back after I start all the attnetion needing stuff 00:59:09 later o/ 01:00:53 UbAh: No, I think it was just inspired by crux and based on nothing 01:00:58 let me look it up 01:01:28 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:01:51 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arch_Linux 01:01:52 Yep 01:02:11 well, not directly based on another distrobution 01:02:42 I guess you could say that it was based on Gnu/Linux or whatever but thats not what you were talking about 01:03:08 it probably is GNU/Linux ;) 01:04:01 I'm amused considering how much Linus hates "GNU/Linux" moniker. 01:04:02 BACK TO DEVELOPMENT, DEVELOPERS! 01:04:08 * gamefreak264 cracks Pikel whip 01:04:17 I'm amused by how hard Stallman pushes it 01:04:20 ... if we don't work gamefreak264 will sell us to Pikel as bedroom slaves? 01:04:22 it seems as if he's bitter about it 01:04:52 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 01:05:00 due: Did I mention that this is a whip of PAIN? 01:05:29 Hot. 01:05:50 No, not flaming, pain. 01:06:46 Call it necromantic :P 01:07:10 Hot. 01:08:06 -!- paxed has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:10:40 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 01:10:40 -!- paxed has quit [Changing host] 01:10:40 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 01:11:21 no esd in the repository 01:11:31 probably why it didnt resolve that dep 01:11:39 I'm in ur deps, resolving them? 01:11:56 Actually, "I'm in your depyths, resolving them" would've been more amusing. 01:12:00 Especially were I a SONAR operator. 01:12:08 Or you owned a fucking lake. 01:13:00 Do you? I want to own a fucking lake. 01:13:46 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 01:13:46 if I owned a lake I would either be some kind of fish farmer or a supervillian using it as a hideout 01:13:50 maybe both 01:14:13 Well, you could be a fish farmer pretending to be a supervillian. Or vice versa. 01:14:45 as far as you know I am trying to get this build of crawl working for some nefarious plan 01:15:13 Like porting it to iOS? 01:15:15 Yes, nefarious. 01:15:17 it just hit me that comes from the root word nefas in latin 01:15:20 Do supervillians typically legitimately own stuff? 01:15:38 I thought the just used lakes as lairs and didn't give a damn about purchasing it 01:15:41 which I use as mu demonspawn or mutated char names in crawl 01:16:05 UbAh = Mu? 01:16:07 possession and a death ray are 9/10th of the law 01:16:13 Oh, typo. 01:17:11 ok now I am distracted and missing something brb 01:17:19 dont want to lose my job, that would suck 01:19:19 erm... it's your repositories SDL package that demands the esd dependency... 01:19:29 Napkin: he's not using repo SDL 01:19:38 well it built SDL and SDL-dev 01:19:42 he's using Crawl's dep-package SDL 01:19:53 maybe its just not declared right somewhere 01:20:10 actually both 01:20:26 oh, right 01:20:39 03dolorous * rd09b37a7ddce 10/crawl-ref/source/player.cc: Tweak spacing. 01:20:39 well, then screw the included and use the system-wide SDL 01:20:41 03dolorous * rba367da1af81 10/crawl-ref/source/player.cc: Add formatting fixes. 01:20:48 03dolorous * r7b9b1f7bb8ca 10/crawl-ref/source/player.cc: Add minor cosmetic fixes. 01:20:53 there was a VARIABLE for that 01:22:45 someone in here gave it to me 01:22:52 sadly i don't remember though 01:23:30 make BUILD_SDL= 01:23:33 maybe that? 01:24:25 I think kilobyte gave me that hint 01:24:59 gotta go too 01:29:12 -!- Giomancer has quit [Quit: Man who run behind car get exhausted] 01:36:28 -!- gamefreak264 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:36:50 -!- gamefreak264 has joined ##crawl-dev 01:38:19 if noone else remembers, I will search the channel logs once at work, UbAh 01:38:35 k 01:41:24 I hacked the make file to hell so I am starting over 02:15:21 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 02:16:07 woohoo got it to work 02:16:38 oh man, congrats 02:16:42 what did it take? 02:16:43 however autoexplore seems kind of very much slower than my old one, is there a reason/setting for that? 02:17:09 few things one sec 02:17:13 I believe there is an option in your rc file somewhere to control how much delay happens when you autoexplore 02:18:42 ok, I will update with how I fixed but just now ran into issues with my maintenance so i have to roll back 02:18:44 brb 02:21:06 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:21:16 ok 02:22:00 so its somewhat complicated because I edited the make files and sub files to statically point to the contrib files because it was not finding them 02:22:23 after I got the correct dev packages installed I had to roll back those changes 02:22:49 I still was not able to build the contrib without error but I was able to use the standard make 02:23:15 so really it was my inability to read correctly what dev files I needed 02:23:38 I'll send neunon a tell explaining that the error i sent was my fault 02:24:00 someone said my name. 02:24:01 neunon: You have 5 messages. Use !messages to read them. 02:24:03 * neunon looks around 02:24:06 oh, messages. 02:24:08 !messages 02:24:08 (1/5) UbAh said (1d 12h 55m 38s ago): I keep runing into problems with the deps included make file on diff flavors of lin 02:24:15 runing! 02:24:16 runing! 02:24:18 !messages 02:24:18 (1/4) UbAh said (1d 12h 55m 41s ago): I spent some insomniac time looking into it and it seems you are calling to a file in your contrib path that is not included 02:24:19 hahaha 02:24:25 !messages 02:24:26 (1/3) UbAh said (1d 12h 49m 8s ago): ../contrib/install/lib/libSDL.a ../contrib/install/lib/libSDLmain.a ../contrib/install/lib/libSDL_image.a 02:24:35 I just figured out what I did wrong so ignore my messages 02:24:37 !messages 02:24:38 (1/2) UbAh said (1d 12h 49m 3s ago): all are not in the contrib, I could point the file to another location but I dont even know where to get those files as they dont seem to be part of my standard SDL install 02:24:40 !messages 02:24:40 (1/1) UbAh said (1d 12h 48m 52s ago): so I am both reporting something to include in the next file and asking where to get those libs 02:24:52 this is pretty hilarious 02:24:57 yes 02:25:29 i had been looking for you since friday and you show up just minutes after I figure out what I was doing wrong 02:25:57 "finally, after four days of trawling the crawl irc channel I got my build to compile, turns out I didn't need neunon after all" "what who said my name" 02:26:34 anyway 02:26:50 neunon: Testing :P 02:26:57 UbAh: for autoexplore, look for the "travel_delay" option in your rcfile, it controls the pause after each move in milliseconds. 02:27:18 setting it to -1 just skips to the end of the move 02:34:40 neunon: what we can learn from this is that the Crawl build system is extremely fragile in the presense of non-programmers. 02:34:53 neunon: Is this fixable or should we just abandon C++? 02:35:12 sorear: based on the above it looks like the contribs weren't built. 02:35:17 really though if I read more carefully I would have known to look for the dev libs 02:35:32 they still didnt build for me 02:35:47 neunon: contrib builds *failed* 02:36:00 I don't see that above 02:42:36 -!- Galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 02:44:15 * sorear hacks the Makefile to g++ -E all non-contrib source files 02:44:37 9.63 million lines of post-cpp source 02:45:10 g++ can process 20,000 LOC/s on my system, impressive 02:45:21 (with 'make debug V=1' for cflags) 02:45:30 sorear, how fast is clang++? :> 02:46:04 * sorear idly wonders how much faster it would be if all files were compiled at once (so no duplicate header inclusion) 02:46:30 Zaba: last time I tried, clang++ failed miserably to parse libstdc++ headers 02:46:54 and I don't have a clang++ compatible libc at hand 02:47:18 sorear, 2.8 claims to have full C++03 support 02:49:08 sorear, more recent clang++ versions are _far_ better than older ones. you might be surprised. last I checked, Crawl actually compiled and ran with LLVM trunk (before 2.8 was out) 02:50:03 I didn't try hard, but building crawl with clang++ fails for me because it lacks -MD support 02:51:03 which isn't entirely needed, you can do 'make NO_INLINE_DEPGEN=YesPlease CC=clang CXX=clang++' and it should work 02:51:32 and it complains about -Wno-array-bounds 02:51:37 so I'm doing a git clone for the first time, is the address for the repository still "git://crawl-ref.git.sourceforge.net/gitroot/crawl-ref/crawl-ref", because I thought that sf was out of the picture or something 02:51:58 somehow. Even though the makefile seems to contain a check for whether the compiler accepts it. 02:52:00 Wensley: we're moving out of SF very soon 02:52:09 ah, I thought it had already taken place 02:52:10 Zaba: I think the check is probably bogus 02:56:00 hm, and it can't find cxxabi.h 02:56:53 hey, John Harris is covering sprint in his @play blog :) 02:56:54 http://www.gamesetwatch.com/2010/10/column_play_sprinting_rapidly.php 02:57:15 Zaba: yes, that seems to happen off and on (trunk keeps fixing and breaking that). you should figure out where cxxabi.h is on your system and add -I to the build flags. there's a couple other headers it'll puke on, do the same for those. 02:57:53 cxxabi seems to be in /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/4.4.3/include/ 02:58:34 cxxabi is a deeply internal part of g++'s implementation of exceptions 02:58:42 (I spent much of yesterday digging in it) 02:58:44 yep. add it to the include path anyway. 02:58:52 a little suprised clang++ is using it 02:58:58 ok i am back 02:59:01 it's included by one of oru source files I think 02:59:05 sorear, crawl code uses it 02:59:09 WHAT 02:59:15 crash-u.cc 02:59:29 for backtrace_symbols and such, I think 02:59:46 ah, I think it could be for 02:59:54 abi::__cxa_demangle() 03:00:00 so C++ symbol name demangling 03:00:02 hiii folk 03:00:06 hi due 03:00:14 ok, if it's crash-u that's different 03:00:25 crash-u is allowed to be promiscuous with libstdc++ 03:00:29 mmmcrash-u 03:00:53 (cue due making a silly comment on my word choice) 03:01:00 ok I should get some sleep so i can get back to the office tomorow was there any other qustions you had about the trouble I ran into? 03:01:30 UbAh: don't think so. 03:01:46 UbAh: thanks for sticking with us :) 03:01:56 indeed :) 03:01:56 yes but due didnt pick up on the fact that what it was being frsh with was lib*STD* 03:01:59 neunon: do you think it would be feasable to make -Wl,-static binaries of Crawl for i686-linux-pc-gnu? Would have avoided UbAh's issues 03:02:08 bad choice for a little frivalous fun 03:02:59 no problem thanks for your patience escpecially when I was being dense about the dev libs 03:03:27 sorear: which issue would it have solved? various contrib .a files weren't built, so something failed to link. I don't see how static linking averts this 03:03:49 okay, it built 03:04:00 Zaba: does it run, though? ;) 03:04:08 UbAh: I got all of those things, I just couldn't be bothered to comment on 03:04:09 describe.cc:3386:5: warning: struct 'monster' was previously declared as a class [-Wmismatched-tags] 03:04:17 neunon, I will try now 03:04:24 dungeon.cc:2389:13: warning: unused function '_connected_flood' [-Wunused-function] 03:04:24 neunon: well, a statically linked .so-dep-free binary would mean that UbAh could just download it and not care about building anything 03:04:45 neunon, seems to start, at least 03:04:51 Zaba: Is it faster than gcc? 03:05:01 sorear, no idea 03:05:03 yes i was wondring why more projects dont go this route 03:05:16 Zaba: try ./crawl -test 03:05:31 if I have this much problem and i should know better how would other people fare 03:06:08 well, my build is unoptimized, I doubt there's much difference to be expected 03:06:18 this is more of a linux advocacy thought I have as to why most people wont adopt it, because its a pain to get thigs to run at times because of deps 03:06:34 Ten minutes for an unoptimized build is, to be blunt, the reason I dropped out of crawl dev 03:06:54 ten minutes of compilation? 03:07:02 UbAh: linux is an OS by programmers for programmers. Call me a cynic, but IMO that ain't gonna change 03:07:06 Zaba: yes 03:07:13 sorear: even with ccache 03:07:21 er, add question mark at the end of that. 03:07:24 I am saying it could 03:07:32 I am an admin not a coder 03:08:01 and even with that I have trouble from time to time, like this case as an example 03:08:30 sorear, that's... not nice 03:08:33 been using lin for far to long to justify this mistake since 98 03:08:46 neunon: Under what circumstances would ccache help? I thought you wrote those makefile dependencies so that a file would be rebuilt if and only if the preprocessed input changes 03:09:21 anyway I gotta hit the sack and then back to the ISP mines 03:09:47 sorear: generally, yes. but it's not infrequent that you may need to do a clean build (or at least, I do) to ensure nothing wonky's happening. 03:09:48 people just wont get the porn they need if I dont make sure they have IP's... 03:10:15 sorear: besides, if the contribs get rebuilt, that's essentially wasted time, because those rarely change. ccache those, and things go quite a bit faster. 03:11:21 _connected_flood is truly unused. 03:11:34 well, it is, but only by itself 03:12:22 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:12:58 -!- UbAh has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:13:05 UbAh: don't let those IP's fall into the wrong hands 03:13:41 the fact that g++ is seeing ~34 times more code than actually exists makes me suspect header fiddling could help a lot 03:15:02 that's usually the case with C++, unfrotunately 03:15:08 *unfortunately. 03:20:10 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:21:53 yeah 03:22:00 C++ is our biggest problem now 03:25:22 It's kind of interesting actually: take a fully C-based project, and compile it with g++ or the '-xc++' flag. it's amazing how much more time it takes when you compile it as C++. 03:26:28 * sorear doesn't fancy converting 300,000 lines of C++ to any other language by himself 03:26:46 I don't either 03:26:50 that would be the easy part 03:27:01 the hard part would be deciding which language to port to :-) 03:27:20 s/deciding/bikeshedding/ 03:27:25 I've already picked C# :) 03:27:29 we make heavy use of templates, too, which makes converting a huge pain 03:27:38 C# is "meh" 03:27:59 I'm not a fan of .NET-spawned languages. J#, C#, VB.NET... blech. 03:28:58 1. popular 2. systems language 3. efficient common implementation 03:29:21 1. rules out Go, 3. rules out Java, 2. rules out Perl, Python 03:29:56 google go wouldn't have received so much hype if it weren't coming from google employees 03:29:58 how is it a systems language? I think a hallmark of a systems language is being able to sustain OS kernels 03:30:36 moreover, C# isn't compiled to native code, so you have to have a runtime 03:30:48 bhaak: IMHO "Ken Thompson" is more interesting than "Google Corp" 03:31:03 sorear: only for people who programmed before java 03:31:25 I started seriously programming around 2001 03:31:27 4. public server friendly? 03:31:37 bhaak: that's 3 03:32:05 sorear: then you are one of the few people that are interested in computer history 03:46:55 computer history is fascinating 03:47:26 then again, any type of history is fascinating to me 03:47:47 yes, but you'll notice that a lot of people are ignorant of computer history 03:48:30 that's also why a lot of problems just don't go away. People keep repeating the mistakes of past projects because they don't know it 03:48:40 Yeah, most people have just become of the world of computers since the advent of Facebook 03:48:50 that and iPods 03:49:26 atleast that's how it is in America 03:49:39 *become aware of 03:50:00