00:04:44 wait, there are actually going to be door mimics? 00:04:46 =( 00:04:48 people can just make lab rats in vaults like they already do, it doesn't need to be a set monster 00:05:03 fire crabs are armored imps that block hallways when they die, don't get the point of those 00:05:11 non-blinking 00:05:38 -!- OG17 was kicked from ##crawl-dev by due [Fuck off.] 00:05:38 -!- OG17 has joined ##crawl-dev 00:05:56 Your negativity is unappreciated. 00:05:56 I don't understand the point of igalits 00:06:17 are you serious, I'm not sure 00:06:50 -!- neunon has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:06:57 ogaz: I'm not implementing them exactly as-is. 00:07:46 wood golems are boring too 00:07:50 could just adjust their depth 00:08:03 alternatively, implement wax golems and get rid of wood golems 00:08:12 something like that 00:08:30 that sounds like a good idea to me; I have no idea where wood golems normally appear, but I know they've never felt dangerous 00:08:38 !killsby wood golem 00:08:38 One game for * (ckiller=wood golem): 1x KiloByte 00:08:39 definitely +1 to feature mimics though 00:08:40 (: 00:08:49 CHASED AND BEATEN TO DEATH BY A DOOR MIMIC. 00:08:52 How the *hell* is that not fun? 00:09:02 !lg kilobyte killer=wood golem -tv 00:09:03 1. KiloByte, XL1 SpCK, T:28 requested for FooTV. 00:09:05 Come to that, what golems are dangerous? 00:09:05 oh 00:09:12 crystal are annoying 00:09:14 dtsund: electric 00:09:17 electric are dangerous 00:09:23 Forgot about those. 00:10:01 toenail golems are dangerous because you might die from the shock of actually seeing one 00:10:05 is it possible to change known mimics to x? I've tried mon_glyph = mimic : x or whatever but it didn't work 00:10:51 if not, would such an option be a reasonable addition? 00:17:37 -!- neunon has joined ##crawl-dev 00:53:44 -!- dtsund has left ##crawl-dev 01:07:30 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 01:47:20 hello 01:54:43 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:00:57 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 02:04:37 -!- ogaz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:49:32 -!- casmith789 has joined ##crawl-dev 02:49:34 -!- Galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 02:57:06 -!- monky has quit [Quit: what] 03:09:08 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 03:10:42 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:33:48 -!- ortoslon has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:44:50 mornings 03:48:18 hi 03:49:01 evenings 03:50:32 Don't have the time to read all the backlog. Has been a busy night at ##crawl-dev, eh? :) 03:51:01 !seen galehar 03:51:01 I last saw Galehar at Wed Oct 6 08:48:18 2010 UTC (2m 43s ago) saying hi on ##crawl-dev. 03:51:07 sorry :) 03:51:12 :) 03:51:30 I've finished Sif's book conduct 03:51:33 it's on mantis 03:51:34 yes, I saw! 03:51:36 wonderful 03:52:08 Galehar: Are you interested in commit rights? 03:52:38 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:52:45 yes, that would be cool :) 03:52:54 So do we think! :) 03:52:59 Do you have an SF account? 03:53:11 not yet 03:53:16 I'm creating one 03:53:19 Unfortunately, we still need one. 03:53:29 * dpeg_ dreams of a time when Crawl is not bound to SF anymore. 03:55:44 done 03:56:08 account name? 03:56:19 you just fear the direct comparison with nethack :-) 03:56:45 haha 03:56:51 galehar 03:56:57 Yes, we will never be able to top the NH download rates. 03:57:00 It's black magic! 03:57:19 100000 humans (?) are downloading a seven-year old NH version every freaking day. 03:57:26 you spelled 'more popular' wrong ;-) 03:57:59 but is it still growing? 03:58:48 Galehar: the numbers are constant over the years. I bet the NH devteam has been busy over the last 7 years perfectioning their downloading-bot skills. 03:59:00 lol 03:59:02 bhaak: do you have a link at hand? 03:59:11 I find SF to be very cumbersome to navigate. 03:59:16 dpeg_: for the download stats? mom 03:59:20 dpeg_: I've decided to implement a bunch of monsters that I think make sense. 03:59:35 due: sure, go ahead. 03:59:42 Bog mummies are definitely a favourite of mine. 03:59:48 There were three things I always want to tell you when I see you... lemme think. 03:59:52 And would make great sense for the undead swamp endings. 03:59:57 Trove, wizlab, ... 04:00:02 ah, holies 04:00:16 * sorear is currently playing 'rogue-clone: Version III. (Tim Stoehr was here), tektronix!zeus!tims' and liking it 04:00:17 would be cool if the latter could go and the former got some polish 04:00:25 nethack, pff 04:00:34 sorear: will you ever come back to us? 04:00:51 dpeg_: The latter could go? 04:00:58 http://sourceforge.net/project/stats/?group_id=196&ugn=nethack&type=&mode=year 04:01:04 go in 0.8 :) 04:01:06 Galehar: ^ 04:01:09 bhaak: thank you! 04:02:06 dpeg_: Holies should make it into 0.8, depending on our release schedule. I jus thaven't felt motivated to work on them recently (most of the ones left to be implemented are difficult). 04:02:33 if you go from there to "Downloads", you can get to the new beta download statistics page with os and country information 04:03:45 due: I would like to have a holy Pan level and holy Zig storeys. The latter will be easy (we'll jut add what we have to angels and daevas). Do you think the former can be done already? 04:03:57 Galehar: you're one of us now. 04:04:05 cool :) 04:04:43 Soul taken, verdict: banishment to the Abyss -- a new slave to Lugonu :) 04:06:04 dpeg_: Hm, possibly. 04:06:28 dpeg_: 72% of vanilla nethack downloads are from windows users. They are used to old, unchanging software (for example IE6, Win XP) 04:06:46 elly: Can you add Galehar to auto-voice? Thanks! 04:06:55 elly: Alternately can you give me the bit to let me add people? <3 04:07:55 bhaak: do you think that Nethack still gets 500 new users each day? 04:08:07 If this is really true, we've got a long way to walk :) 04:08:18 due: good thinking, thanks 04:08:42 bhaak: for dcss, it's 81% of downloads from windows users 04:09:04 Galehar: but how many per day (or month)? 04:09:29 03Keskitalo * r5e80dcb90436 10/crawl-ref/source/ (11 files in 5 dirs): Rename giant scorpion to emperor scorpion. (OG17) 04:09:32 03Keskitalo * r09101fa52d23 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: Give emperor scorpions only medium poison. 04:09:33 03Keskitalo * raba51f72e73c 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-mon/animals/emperor_scorpion.png: Add coolio's new emperor scorpion tile. (#2607) 04:09:36 03Keskitalo * r989c6df5c247 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/spells.txt: Fix the search-and-replace -mangled description for the Summon Scorpions spell. 04:10:00 EMPEROR SCORPION <333 04:10:05 So how many "giant" monsters do we have left now? 04:10:11 dpeg_: What do you think of giant bat -> megabat? 04:10:32 Galehar: ah, the usual blurb for new members: you're free to commit things without asking -- at worst, people will scream after commit. If you're not sure, just ask in advance. For minor bits right here, if you want/need more feedback on Mantis or the mailing list. But I think you already got it right anyway :) 04:10:49 what about battalion? 04:11:10 ok 04:12:02 dpeg_: no, I don't think so. If there were more linux downloads, I would guess a lot of downloads would come from distro default installations. But windows doesn't have such a thing and SF has some form of bot protection (bandwiths costs after all). I also have no clue where those downloads are coming from 04:12:10 dcss is around 10000 downloads per month 04:12:15 NH is 15000 04:12:20 we're catching up 04:12:42 :) 04:12:44 dcss: https://sourceforge.net/project/stats/detail.php?group_id=143991&ugn=crawl-ref&mode=alltime&&type=prdownload 04:12:53 nh : https://sourceforge.net/project/stats/detail.php?group_id=196&ugn=nethack&type=prdownload&mode=alltime&year=2010&file_id=0 04:13:24 It is amazing that the pure power of NH's legacy makes them this heavyweight, without actual input over the years (those folks who're downloading from SF are most probably not aware of the forks). 04:13:31 Galehar: nethack is growing in some parts, but not visible on SF. iphone and android versions certainly have some downloads 04:13:41 that's true 04:13:58 we have to port crawl to iOS and android 04:13:59 Nethack sucks a lot. 04:14:03 ;) 04:14:05 * due runs away. 04:14:29 Galehar: I'd support a port to android, but I'm not sure it's achievable without some sort of massive interface change and/or a terminal layer through Java. 04:14:32 food for thought, though. 04:14:34 the iphone version has hearse support and the stats are about as high as the one from slashem: http://hearse.krollmark.com/bones.dll?act=versionstats 04:14:53 The point is not that Crawl has to be bigger than Nethack. But I think that challenging Nethack's aura as the pinnacle of the genre chould be challenged. 04:14:57 I should ask dirk to make a blog post about the download stats 04:15:13 nethack popularity is good for crawl anyway 04:15:21 dpeg_: oh, a topic we forgot to discuss :-) 04:15:37 I bet 99% of crawl player were nh player that got bored 04:15:54 bhaak: yes, not enough time. Will have to pick this up at Visby. 04:16:09 erm, remove one "challenge" from my sentence :O 04:16:15 I think nethack is much more known outside the usual target group of oss and/or linux games. 04:16:20 Galehar: yes, but only to an extent 04:16:44 Galehar: I believe that NH's ancient interface also loses people right away who could have otherwise drawn into the genre. 04:16:58 Galehar: UnNH (bhaak's fork) has a tutorial, for example. vanilla doesn't. 04:17:34 I actually think that minecraft or df are a much greater "threat" to nethack's popularity than crawl 04:17:40 * bhaak ducks 04:18:01 I don't see why nh is so popular, there is no way in which it can be considered an improvement over rogue 04:18:04 they are strange, addicting, non-mainstream games that got/are forming some cult following 04:19:16 sorear: rogue wasn't free when computers got cheaper and more widely spread and nethack was still in development when rogue wasn't 04:19:21 bhaak: I don't worry about the addiction potential of Crawl. 04:20:17 dpeg_: it can't be high enough :) 04:20:46 I believe that new, actively developed games like DF are good for the whole genre, including Crawl. 04:20:51 i loathe minecraft 04:20:53 how many reports do you have about people failing their exams because of crawl? ;-) 04:21:21 kilobyte: do you think we can move on with the licenses, or is Steven's attribution a breaker? 04:21:30 bhaak: enough 04:21:35 makes me sad to think about it 04:21:53 dpeg_: what did stevan do to kill our relicense? 04:22:31 I consented to licensing my changes under 2-clause BSD, which means it can be in a project licensed GPL. I don't see the problem here. 04:22:32 sorear: he had a special demand... Didn't you get the licensing mails from yesterday? 04:22:44 neunon: yes, probably there isn't. But kilobyte said there could. 04:23:02 sorear: does the uiuc mail still work? 04:23:37 I just don't want to get stuck here, but move on :) 04:23:39 I didn't explain my stance properly is all. Basically my intent was to state that we should license BSD, which allows derivative works to be licensed however, rather than licensing GPL which requires derivative works to be GPL as well. 04:24:12 aha 04:24:29 * dpeg_ is not familiar with the subtleties involved. I just follow you folks, whatever you decide. 04:24:32 I think the fewest restrictions on developers and users is best. 04:24:48 Well, I think it comes down to this: 04:26:00 Do people _mind_ if their work could be licensed commercially or licensed under a BSD-compatible license (i.e. GPLv3 or even heck, CDDL or something crazy)? This doesn't nullify the BSD terms, as they'd still need to provide attribution, as well as a copy of the BSD licensing notice. But it does mean it can be more freely used. 04:26:23 I personally don't mind if someone develops a product based on something I write, provided they provide attribution. Perhaps that's not everyone's stance. 04:26:46 I absolutely won't mind Crawl forks. I am not sure what I'd think if someone made money out of Crawl. 04:27:13 And I think I couldn't prevent the latter anyway, and it _won't_ happen anyway either. 04:27:44 I doubt anyone _could_, really. But even if they did, it's the better software that wins in the end. If someone's willing to pay for it, over getting it for free, then perhaps the pay-to-play version is somehow better. 04:28:09 But I'd argue that the open source version will win in the end. 04:28:17 (at least, if it's actively developed) 04:28:20 yes 04:29:06 I guess there's the problem of over-forking (so many variants that the whole project gets washed away). Not sure if or how often that comes up in open source projects. 04:30:15 well, the point of GPL is that even if someone forks it, you can use their change 04:30:25 You can with BSD too 04:30:29 yes, which is why I am not afraid of forks 04:30:38 It's just a matter of whether you're _required_ to share your changes. BSD doesn't require it, GPL does 04:30:45 I don't like that kind of restriction, honestly. 04:31:07 neunon: so with BSD someone could make Crawl+ and not let us use their code? 04:31:09 exactly, so with a BSD licence, someone can take your code, change it and make a commercial release and you don't get their changes 04:31:15 dpeg_: 'I am not sure what I'd think if someone made money out of Crawl' that's one of the vital points you should think about before deciding the license. 04:31:43 there is some BSD code in windows and macos 04:31:47 dpeg_: that's the issue in a nutshell 04:31:48 for example, that happened with the tcp/ip stack from one of the BSDs. Microsoft took it and used it 04:32:21 bhaak: I am an illiterate child speaking to knowledgeable adults when it comes to licenses. :) 04:32:24 without that, Win32 still wouldn't be on the internet. Now, would that be a bad thing? :-) 04:32:42 dpeg_: sure, they could. does it matter though? as long as they provide attribution, they're doing what they should. and again, the better software will win. if Crawl+ really gains a huge amount of support behind it, I'd be happy with it. we may even influence it by our own changes to regular Crawl. they're not _required_ to give their changes though. 04:33:12 dpeg_: yeah, as I told johanna on the ride back, I'm thinking on doing a 101 for licenses and copyright in visby for programmers 04:33:19 bhaak: awesome 04:33:37 So the underlying philosophical (or ethical) question is between "be generous" and "demand reciprocity". 04:33:39 I think unity is the most important thing here 04:33:55 I suppose my point is, that if the project's community is healthy enough, and the project is well-maintained, it has nothing to worry about. If it gets forked, and sold commercially, there's the free alternative available with more momentum behind it. If the community falters or development weakens, then perhaps a new fork is in order (look how crawl-ref started). 04:34:01 let's all relicense to one license that works before fretting over minor points like "GPL or BSD?" 04:34:18 sorear: good point 04:34:33 the GPL licenses got some hits lately because 'free' doesn't really mean 'free' like you think it does 04:34:34 because our current situation is quite inferior to both 04:34:37 it's hardly a minor point. it's a matter of what minimum terms we want. 04:35:01 neunon: but sorear is right that currently we're in a worse position: a badly working license. 04:35:21 as in 'why is it free software when I can't take the source code and make an iphone version?' 04:35:29 But for the shouts to the public we should probably announce what licence we ultimately want. 04:35:40 yes, our license sucks, but if we make a decision to go with a license that isn't a good choice, then we have a more painful re-re-licensing process to go through. 04:36:00 Why would it be more painful? 04:37:04 Just one question: have their been actual court cases based on licenses for open source projects? 04:37:43 sorear: perhaps not more painful. perhaps equally painful. getting ahold of people who are only tangentally related to the project is kind of tough. (I've had to deal with relicensing in other projects too.) 04:37:54 dpeg_: only in one country 04:38:20 dpeg_: most projects aren't well-funded enough to actually pursue legal action. 04:38:55 I'd think so. Thus our discussion is largely hypothetical :) 04:38:56 dpeg_: which is theoretically why things like the FSF exist, but I've seen them "meh" at open source battles before (wish I could remember a specific example/source, but it was years ago) 04:39:02 for oss re-licensing, you can look at http://www.dwheeler.com/essays/floss-license-slide.html 04:39:37 AFAIK the only time legal action has only been taken regarding open source licences... 04:40:07 something about: Germany, Linux built-in firewall, commercial firewall box with $improper_unshared_modification 04:40:23 interesting 04:40:31 well, there have been problems with the TIVO 04:40:37 that's what started the GPLv3 04:40:55 http://gpl-violations.org/ 04:40:55 I'd keep an open eye wrt. Android too 04:41:09 there's potentially going to be an interesting fight there 04:41:10 most things don't get into court and are settled before that 04:41:34 Google has done some antisocial-but-allowed-by-the-license stuff with Java 04:41:41 bhaak: the diagram on the page you linked about relicensing is a bit crude, but it does explain it in a nice visual way. the permissiveness spectrum is basically what we're looking at here. 04:41:44 which is an indication that the GPL is rather sound if the people aren't willing to risk a court decision 04:42:03 like creating a fork and making it deliberately not binary compatible (due to patent concerns iirc) 04:42:14 neunon: yes, I think I post it every time the issue comes up :-) 04:42:21 http://www.opensourcelegal.org/ -- not just GPL violations 04:42:34 (though a bit infrequently updated it seems) 04:42:41 neunon: oh, cool, I didn't know that one 04:49:32 what is the difference between BDS "2-clause" and "3-clause"? neunon brought that up. 04:50:01 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSD_license#3-clause_license_.28.22New_BSD_License.22.29 -- this and the next section 04:53:15 it's the "don't use my name for advertising without permission" clause. 04:53:20 thanks 04:53:48 * dpeg_ still wonders how real-life relevant all of this is. 04:54:13 I think this clause has been deemed unnecessary as other, normal laws already give you some protection about advertising 04:54:39 * bhaak wonders, too 04:55:05 the BSD3 license is essentially the same as public domain in any jurisdiction with halfway sane libel and fraud laws 04:55:05 If they say 'originally developped by $name' that's true and you probably can't do anything about it 04:55:54 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:55:55 and in other jurisdictions you already have problem getting protection for your intellectual property :) 04:56:48 I agree that all of this could be very important. I just don't see how it could be important for something tiny like Crawl. 04:57:11 * dpeg_ doubts that Blizzard will steal our code. And if they steal our ideas, we're helpless anyway, eh? 04:58:25 no, if somebody WITH MONEY steals your code, there will be thousands of lawyers willing to take your code :) 04:58:41 erm, last code should read case :D 04:59:08 if somebody smaller steals your code, there is still the possibility of public (online) outcry 04:59:17 depends. are you in a winner-pays or a loser-pays jurisdiction? 04:59:21 bad pr for those people 05:00:00 bhaak: our games are too small for all of that, even theft is what I am saying :) 05:00:45 sorear: the code is available word-wide, somebody with money works probably also world-wide, select the country with the best jurisdiction 05:01:37 dpeg_: you are saying "crawl is too small to be stolen"? 05:01:52 It is not clear to me how to steal Crawl. 05:02:13 hehe, yes, that's one effect of open source. :) 05:02:29 Jeff told me that we would get substantial amounts of donations if we asked for it. So perhaps there is a way to make money out of the game. But I don't see it (and I am strictly against it, of course). 05:02:38 also, to be correct, a copyright violation is not 'stealing' 05:02:45 sure sure 05:02:58 yeah, you still don't have a flattr/kachingle/whatever account 05:03:21 you have? 05:03:57 http://flattr.com/thing/9387/UnNetHack 05:03:59 sure 05:04:16 or just put up a paypal button on the blog and see what happens 05:04:37 * dpeg_ is too much of an idealist to ask for money. 05:04:47 But we never discussed this with the devteam. 05:06:04 well, I had mixed feelings, too. But letting your users contribute any way they want is good. Even if it is only money. 05:06:56 I rather want their vaults, ideas or code :) 05:07:01 What to do with the money? 05:07:54 server maintenance, conference trips, devteam t-shirts :) 05:08:14 there are users that don't have any skills for vaults, ideas or code 05:08:26 spend it on prizes for the tournament :P 05:08:48 yes, that one is a good idea, too 05:09:06 advertise to get more users, to later become the big bad crawl company 05:10:04 accepting donations is possible within any of the licenses: GPL, BSD, old Bison... 05:10:35 in fact, a license that would NOT allow those would mean we're out of SourceForge, Debian, etc 05:10:49 I notcied myself, as one who flattrs other people, giving a small amount of money is a different kind of appreciation 05:11:12 in our case, code contributions are better 05:11:37 (not that I would cry if someone wanted to shover me in moolah, but hey) 05:13:31 okay, then use the money for paying programmer courses :) 05:14:53 -!- casmith789 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:15:30 -!- casmith789 has joined ##crawl-dev 05:26:52 lunchtime 06:11:07 -!- Textmode has quit [Quit: Over the ages, man has been certain of a great many things. some of these things were even true.] 06:35:34 03kilobyte * ra7bc0a1a1637 10/crawl-ref/source/religion.cc: Fix reversed logic for lich form check at altars. 06:35:57 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 06:43:54 bailey time 06:46:33 !seen zaba 06:46:33 I last saw Zaba at Wed Oct 6 07:00:57 2010 UTC (4h 45m 36s ago) joining the channel. 06:46:37 Zaba: around? 06:47:42 dpeg_, now, yes 06:47:47 just got home 06:48:28 Zaba: what do you think of the idea to have kobold swarms vs orcish (or other) troops, the latter fewer but better equippeD? 06:48:39 dpeg_, regarding a branching portal vault: Yes, baileys are an example of that. But, as I have pointed out, I don't think it's a good idea. 06:48:49 I mean, I don't think it's a _good_ example. 06:49:06 many of the layouts could be reused for both 'branches', for added variety and unpredictability. 06:49:40 dpeg_, that sounds fine, as long as the layout doesn't allow for bottlenecks 06:49:47 I think the common idea is that you have to walk along something where they can attack you but you cannot easily attack back. 06:49:56 yes 06:50:18 Why does the dummy entry have no uniq_bailey? Accident or intentional?? 06:50:28 probably accidental 06:54:48 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:02:52 Eino chimes in with the license discussion :) 07:08:39 HI. 07:09:38 Hi due 07:09:52 dpeg_: You happy for bog mummies to go in? 07:09:54 Shouldn't you sleep at this time of the day? 07:10:00 due: sure 07:10:01 1hr+. 07:10:31 I'll probably make them slightly levelled up guardiaan mummies, so suitable for Swamp. 07:10:57 The Ash discussion came back to the point of mummy abuses. I think it is out of the question to scum mummies for their curses, others don't. It seems to me the central issue is the mummy, not Ashenzari. 07:11:05 due: okay! 07:11:08 No, it's out of the question. 07:11:19 Who think it's not? 07:11:56 Actually, I'll do my work on malign gateway 07:12:46 There was the argument that "mummies are finite", but I don't think I like that. 07:12:48 -!- rkd has joined ##crawl-dev 07:13:02 It' trashy and lame. 07:14:08 what would scumming mummies mean 07:15:07 dpeg_, I think I forgot to mention what I think about changing the HD of monsters in baileys: I don't really like the idea... 07:15:22 Mu_: killing mummies to get your equipment cursed. 07:15:27 Zaba: okya! 07:15:38 dpeg_: What do you think of feature mimics? 07:15:39 dpeg_, firstly, I think that it's already possible to find suitable monsters for pretty much all imaginable roles within baileys 07:15:44 Mu_: you wear not-yet-cursed gear, approach the mummy you stashed somewhere, kill it and hope it curses your item :) 07:15:51 well 07:15:53 no 07:15:59 You drop everything, except the item you want cursed 07:16:02 then you kill it from afar 07:16:07 Zaba: well, I was thinking of a goblin king or something. no big deal 07:16:10 dpeg_, secondly, I think that in such fighting-oriented vaults, the expectations that more or less experienced players have for specific monsters shouldn't be broken 07:16:32 You could say that makes the very idea of using curses absurd. But I say it's the mummy who is to blame :) 07:16:49 seems like there would be low incentive to do that if there are curse scrolls around 07:16:49 dpeg_: No, because there are other sensible sources. 07:17:00 Mu_: Yes, the solution is to just increase generation of curse item scrolls. 07:17:01 Zaba: I know, which is why I suggested this only together with also changing name. But again, no problem. 07:17:01 IMHO. 07:17:09 Mu_: yes, but they are rare. 07:17:16 make them less rare 07:17:24 nobody wants them apart from Ashers 07:17:27 that will also make the identification game moer fun 07:17:29 so? 07:17:48 The wiki coughed up two ideas: (1) Ash gifts them, (2) you can pray to ash and turn ?RC into ?CurseFoo. 07:17:51 ability that lets you turn scrolls into curse scrolls? 07:17:53 yeah 07:18:16 praying to turn remove curse into curse foo sounds awful 07:18:23 the latter is pretty flavourful, I am only slightly worried that players can lay their dirty paws on too many curse scrolls :) 07:18:29 I mean, there's no reason why that can't work on any other type of scroll 07:18:35 Zaba: it would be an altar prayer 07:18:40 Zaba: hey, it's a god! 07:18:46 still, there's nothing special about RC scrolls 07:19:05 Zaba: to Ashenzari, there is 07:19:11 These are the most evil scrolls invented. 07:19:21 and letting people recycle scrolls that they don't need, even in such a limited way, seems kind of wrong 07:19:27 does the having cursed gear equipped matter for jewellery aswell? 07:19:54 you might as well make it possible to sell RC scrolls to ash 07:20:28 limited, yes, unscummable, no. 07:20:33 rkd: there will be a Curse JEwellery scroll, yes 07:20:52 Zaba: you _need_ ?RC scrolls with Ash 07:20:54 or have ash randomly curse pieces of the players gear without input from the player :P 07:21:03 Mu_: no, that will lead to madness :) 07:21:21 "I've been waiting in this cosy spot for 10^8 turns and Ash still didn't curse my glove." 07:21:21 usually end a game with about 50 remove curse scrolls i don't need :P 07:21:24 ah 07:21:46 Mu_: this is why I wrote about my worry: players may get too much Curse Foo material 07:22:57 increase the cost exponentially 07:23:08 first 5 curse foo, 1 rc 07:23:12 next 5 curse foo, 2 rc 07:23:19 next 5 curse foo, 4 rc, etc 07:23:27 (1, 2, 8, 16, and so-on) 07:23:32 well later on in the game the only pieces of your equipment that will be likely to be changed occassionally is jewellery. tho in some cases that can be very often. 07:23:56 due: I would rather make it more and more expensive to switch gear (in piety) 07:24:00 same effect, fewer questions 07:24:04 okay 07:24:08 rkd: yes 07:25:30 approach (1) (Ash gifts scrolls) has the advantage that we can control the flow of Curse Foo items, it is also thematic and it does not require a prayer interface 07:25:43 But I would start Ash without any of these and see what happens. 07:28:22 okay 07:28:40 I'm makiing a new marker type for maling gateway so that the tentacles don't come through immediately 07:28:43 You just get the portal 07:28:43 sound good? 07:29:16 ye! 07:29:54 yes 07:30:18 would it be possible to place a MG portal in a vault? :P 07:30:23 Do you agree that MG should only be placed in the open? (All eight surrounding squares floor, water, lava)? 07:30:36 Mu_: oh, the ecstacy :) 07:30:46 * dpeg_ has visions of large rooms full of MGs 07:32:31 you can't displace the tentacles so they block you as much as they block everything else, might be ok if they can be used in tight spaces for that reason 07:33:18 Mu_: I don't want MG to be used for fleeing 07:33:40 corridor: ..@......XYZ <-- nasty monsters 07:33:45 -!- casmith789 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:33:49 ah 07:33:50 you summon MG and run to the left 07:34:04 well you don't currently get to pick which square it summons onto 07:34:15 could be any adjacent one? 07:34:15 so if it appeared on your left it'd block your retreat :P 07:34:21 ah, that could solve it 07:34:34 the other reason why I am for open space is that it looks better :) 07:35:09 ah :P 07:35:30 MG in a corridor will look a bit lame, MG in open space will have players shit their pants 07:35:56 might be a good idea then 07:36:58 What we need is certain monsters to pull MGs out of their hats! 07:37:44 mnoleg :P 07:38:01 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 07:38:05 Good afternoon! 07:38:07 Mu_: do you know these arcade games like R-Type which have areas with lots of receding and advancing ...things which the player has to maneuver and bypass? We can do the same now :) 07:38:11 Keskitalo: Hallo! 07:38:36 haha 07:38:38 Oh yeah, we need boss battles with bosses larger than LOS. 07:38:45 larger than life? :) 07:39:35 -!- Hehfiel has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:39:36 dpeg_: I'm looking at tweaking the ghost moth 07:39:41 ??ghost moth[3] 07:39:41 ghost moth[3/3]: dpeg thinks that moths should be subtle participants of combat. So the huge damage and the poison is not needed; invisilibity, MP draining gaze and stat draining attack are ok. 07:39:44 dpeg_: I'm working on it. 07:39:55 Keskitalo: this is great Zot material, btw 07:39:59 I like the "subtle participants of combat", that's a good byline 07:40:01 dpeg_: At the least getting the mechanic exactly right should be good. 07:40:09 Keskitalo: it's a moth, after all :) 07:40:12 due: YES 07:40:14 oops 07:40:38 (apparently "byline" is a wrong word..) anyway.. 07:40:44 good THEME, yeah. 07:40:49 that was what I was looking for. 07:41:00 well, byline kinda works 07:41:06 if you're using it as "signature mechanism" 07:41:12 tagline :P 07:41:30 So, instead of it hitting like a truck, I'd make the attacks AF_DRAIN_STAT 8, AF_DRAIN_STAT 8 and AF_DRAIN_STAT_POISON 12 07:41:40 Tagline was probably what I was thinking, yeah :) 07:41:52 Keskitalo: ok 07:41:54 -!- Hehfiel has joined ##crawl-dev 07:42:00 the crucial bit is draining MP from afar, of course 07:42:15 and that it is invisible, but you'll note your MP falling :) 07:43:11 of course, moth of wrath does somethign dangerous in melee (berserk you), so ghost moth should also be nasty closeup 07:43:18 not everyone is a caster, after all 07:43:42 Yeah, and you get messages. Those damage numbers should be enough to seriously dent a caster in light armour (it's also speed 12) 07:44:01 I'm also lowering HD to 10 (from 13) and AC to 10 (from 16) 07:44:22 ok 07:44:24 So it goes down against as a melee char 07:44:32 Keskitalo: can you make sure it occurs on Zot:5 07:44:38 that would provide feedback before long 07:44:42 hehee :) 07:45:05 Yeah, I do like the idea, I've never touched the monster generation stuff though, it's scary 07:45:19 perhaps you can dig up the commit when the moth of wrath was added? 07:46:05 I'm (over)afraid of accidentally lowering the chances of say electrical golems appearing =) 07:46:10 but yeah, I can do that 07:46:12 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 07:46:37 Keskitalo: You should just be able to add it underneath moths of wrrath everywhere. 07:47:14 Arf, AF_STAT_DRAIN_POISON poisons you, I though it was just a stat drain attack that checked for rPois 07:47:18 -!- Hehfiel has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:47:28 It's blocked if you're rPois. 07:47:48 Yeah, but I don't like the poisoning part. Maybe it's ok? 07:49:37 could it have one stat drainer checking rPois and the other one not? 07:54:00 Close; it'll have two drain attacks not checking, and one checking. 07:54:31 -!- Hehfiel has joined ##crawl-dev 07:55:33 Keskitalo: ok 07:55:49 From a quick wizmode testing, heavy armour + big weapon lets you handle them, but the light armoured monk was in serious trouble. 07:57:14 ok 07:57:17 Lemuel's original intention was to make ghost moths extremely rare (i.e. not even one guaranteed per Nest), but I think bulldozer melee damage was still over the top (you still wouldn't want to enter Nest without a really powerful character) and the monster is more interesting if its weaker but more common 07:57:26 we'll hope the monk has other tricks on his sleeve 07:57:32 yeah :) 07:58:06 Keskitalo: yes. As far as I see the moths (and zelgadis had very similar ideas), they should enrich battles tactically. Just by being there. 07:58:48 he had a special term for such monsters... I forgot 07:58:59 Passive aggressors?;) 07:59:32 no no 07:59:57 yeah, there's a wiki page 08:03:00 https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=1782283&group_id=143991&atid=757516 08:03:07 wavering monsters 08:08:25 03Keskitalo * r1e6a7088928f 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: Ghost moth no longer hits like a bulldozer. 08:08:26 03Keskitalo * r90295b8d55df 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/portals/spider.des: Revert "Doors and warnings before facing ghost moths." 08:10:58 Wall-clinging and web traps would make good implementables. 08:11:14 Keskitalo: fire away 08:11:15 due: 'Galehar' is not registered 08:11:26 Galehar: would you register your nick? 08:11:27 elly: Feh. 08:11:30 * due glares at Galehar. 08:11:43 Keskitalo: I wasn't sure how much to put there, but we should be liberal, right? 08:11:51 You can help by just dishing them out. 08:12:11 dpeg_: Hurr? You mean we can leave (some of) the details to the implementer? 08:12:46 Keskitalo: no, I meant how many Implementables to open on Mantis. 08:12:56 dpeg: what? 08:13:01 Galehar: ^ 08:13:01 Ahh, I think having many there is ok. 08:13:17 Galehar: /msg NickServ help register 08:13:22 If you register your freednode nick, then elly can do good things. 08:13:22 ok 08:13:42 I asked about the level of detail specified, because I'm wondering if they should be more specified than what is in the wiki currently. 08:13:59 Especially, how should the "web trap summons spider" idea work. 08:14:06 Keskitalo: yes, I was unsure at first, but we should be bold. Whenever we think "that would be good to have", but at the some know this won't come soon from the core team => Implementable 08:14:18 Keskitalo: yes, that is an issue 08:14:45 maybe best to only make Implementables such ideas that are reasonably detailed 08:14:57 dpeg_: Yup, I agree, that's a good principle 08:15:09 both in detail and "when to make an Implementable" :) 08:15:14 Keskitalo: wall-clinging is, for example 08:16:04 registration done 08:16:28 * due summons elly again. 08:17:25 Galehar: if you want to, you can commit the patches you have, by the way 08:17:35 that might be easiest for all the relevant parties 08:17:35 yeah, I'll do that tonight 08:17:38 :) 08:17:40 can't commit from work :)= 08:17:46 Galehar: ah, I remember 08:17:56 at least you can irc 08:18:01 yes 08:18:07 =) 08:18:11 thanks to webchat.freenode.net 08:18:51 Well, the important thing is that I can code 08:19:23 ah, you have the code with you 08:19:25 I code at work too! 08:19:32 but... unfortunately I have to code work code 08:21:16 -!- syllogism has quit [] 08:21:21 I'm a sysadmin 08:21:27 lots of free time :) 08:21:31 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 08:21:35 I take the code on USB key 08:21:56 is there a easy way to find out which all non-living monsters are in crawl? 08:25:57 http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/kielosto/crawl_spoilers/ss/crawl_ss_monsters_by_hd.html 08:26:01 is what I use 08:28:01 Regarding poison.. it's such a shame that an effect (and so much associated code/effort!) is swept away with a single dot of resistance.. what if it was made 90% effective? 08:28:12 (rPois that is) 08:28:35 cool thanks 08:30:00 Keskitalo: sounds good 08:30:19 we don't want several layers of rPois, though 08:31:19 dpeg: about link, page looks good, too bad is obsolete 08:31:35 it was automatically generated from mon-data.h, so it should be trivial to update 08:31:38 who did it? 08:32:08 Galehar: yes 08:32:11 Galehar: parsing that is definitely not trivial 08:32:17 Jarmo had a script to generate these pages, of course 08:32:17 Galehar: but we do have code to do it 08:32:29 soul the Earth Mage (L15 DGEE) ASSERT(in_bounds(src_pos) || src_pos.origin()) in 'mon-behv.cc' at line 722 failed on turn 73917. (D:18) 08:32:31 Jarmok, was our best (online) player for a while 08:32:37 (ie, it would be trivial but there are 546986734897 special cases) 08:32:51 of course, i said trivial to update, because it has already been done 08:33:06 I could write to him. let me check 08:33:31 soul the Earth Mage (L15 DGEE) ASSERT(in_bounds(src_pos) || src_pos.origin()) in 'mon-behv.cc' at line 722 failed on turn 74143. (D:18) 08:33:34 kilobyte: ah ok :) 08:34:03 dpeg_: Crawl's code has changed so tremendously it'd be easier to write that from scratch than use a version from 0.3 era 08:34:22 so let's use the code Gretell uses 08:34:25 @??spider 08:34:25 spider (10s) | Speed: 15 | HD: 3 | Health: 9-24 | AC/EV: 3/10 | Damage: 504(medium poison) | Res: 06magic(12) | Vul: 09poison | Chunks: 09poison+contam | XP: 42. 08:34:39 I just wrote to Jarmo :( 08:35:48 Gretell actually runs a stripped down version of Crawl and asks the actual code to provide the numbers 08:36:30 could that be automatised? 08:37:59 yeah 08:39:24 What would be a good rarity for ghost moths in Zot? 08:40:53 Interesting.. death drakes are given a rarity for Zot, but not the level thing. 08:41:21 ROTFL. Napkin's code is currently unredistributable, since he put it under GPLv3, and it links with Crawl. 08:41:32 gods be thanked for that relicensing project 08:42:12 Would we like death drakes in Zot? :) 08:42:24 Keskitalo: we already have 649386390834890 of them 08:42:37 They're all summoned! 08:42:42 Keskitalo: similar to moths of wrath? 08:42:42 Keskitalo: drac callers. They're a major pain in the ass. 08:42:58 Keskitalo: I don't think drakes have business in Zot unless called 08:43:15 dpeg_: Too common I think, you meet about a hundred moths of wrath typically (or so it feels to me ;)) 08:44:08 Ok, I'll remove the death drake line. 08:44:19 Keskitalo: okay, so less :) 08:45:03 Would as common as shadow dragons be common enough? 08:45:17 I like moths of wrath. They are an interesting threat. Death drakes and yellow dracs, on the other hand, are merely a resource drain that won't kill you but make you damn angry. 08:45:49 They attack the player, not the character? :) 08:45:55 kilobyte: but yellow draconians are interesting 08:46:02 Keskitalo: kind of, yeah :p 08:46:56 moths of wrath have quite a bit in common with giant eyes 08:47:06 (I'm ok with yellow dracs and death drakes, personally) 08:47:31 except that they rarely spawn in places where they can be safely fought 08:47:32 kilobyte: how so? 08:47:55 dpeg_: a lone moth of wrath will just drain a bit of food from you 08:48:16 dpeg_: but a moth of wrath next to a pack of dragons = oy vey, gevalt 08:48:22 bad idea: chunk of moth of wrath flesh lets you berserk 08:49:05 kilobyte: I thought these effects are exactly what we want? 08:49:42 kilobyte - it didn't link with nor ran a version of crawl when it got created ;) 08:51:51 ball lightnings move around randomly like butterflies correct? 08:52:09 don't want to instakill any character who enters my vault :P 08:56:16 aerie!!! 08:57:48 Ghost moths do nothing against heavy armour chars in Zot, but I suppose that's completely ok. 08:57:51 Napkin: by the way, it's time for you as well to say if you agree for relicensing to GPL 08:58:02 agreed 08:58:04 It is Time. 08:58:07 Hallo Napkin :) 08:58:14 Ahoi! :) 08:58:18 Looks like you caught up with the crpgaddict blog! 08:58:53 judging by the comments 08:59:01 And still no new post!!! 08:59:19 indeed! where is he hiding?! :D 08:59:20 dpeg_: what I meant is, you need to use actual strategy when meeting one, unless it is in a safe spot (which are rare in Zot) 08:59:30 kilobyte: yes, exactly 08:59:52 I think the accidental moth in a quiet spot is okay. No need to write code just to prevent that. 09:00:04 dpeg_: but death drakes, it's just: sit in a corridor, try to get the caller, then curse and fix up rot 09:00:17 yeah, it still takes away food 09:00:55 kilobyte: that's the pain with all summoners, whether boggart or drac caller. 09:00:59 didn't know there is a relicensing movement again at the moment.. is there? 09:01:08 (apart from tiles, of course) 09:01:16 yes! 09:01:36 my local build hangs when i try to enter hell, whether via the portal or with &~U 09:01:41 we should just count Napkin as a dev, that would make matters much easier 09:01:57 Mu_: there was this change for hell stairs 09:02:23 dpeg_: Okay, got ghost moths in Zot - not restricted (or forced to appear) to Zot:5. I got two on Zot:1 and one on Zot:3 in my test run. 09:02:49 ok for a start, this will lead to feedback 09:02:57 Aye! 09:04:11 i'm not a dev, dpeg - can't remember i ever did any change to crawl code - apart from adjusting it for builds 09:04:44 Napkin: after lots of discussion, I started sending the formal mails yesterday, starting with the devs only. Which, as expected, led to another flamefest about BSD vs GPL and GPLv2 vs GPLv3. 09:05:04 I think Robert summed it up nicely. 09:05:26 I think it's better to survive that first before going for the wide audience 09:05:34 kilobyte: irgs, not _again_.... 09:06:16 i don't agree for BSD. what version of GPL - i don't care... preferably >=2 09:06:24 03Keskitalo * r8d1b9685eace 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-pick.cc: Ghost moths in Zot. 09:06:25 -!- casmith789 has joined ##crawl-dev 09:06:33 not that I have anything to say about it ;) 09:06:36 03Keskitalo * re2449f1244d6 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-pick.cc: Death drakes had rarity but no level specified for Zot - remove it. 09:07:08 gretell's monster binary will happily use BSD crawl too :D 09:07:10 Hmm.. anyone follow ##crawl, I'd love to see the reactions to "Ghost moths in Zot" :) 09:07:21 Should've only nerfed it *after* that, of course 09:07:39 16:06 < hayenne> yay for moths! 09:07:43 people were supporting it 09:07:46 what's the deal with ghost moths? 09:08:24 Napkin: more deaths of casters, we hope 09:08:32 casmith789: probably because of the nerf ;_; No but seriously, that's good :) 09:08:34 Napkin: if a stone giant is a truck, ghost moths are an armoured train rolling over you 09:08:47 or rather, were until today 09:08:48 arg! nerf, nerf, nerf! ;D 09:08:50 Not anymore though, I nerfed their melee damage 09:08:56 *phew* 09:09:07 now they just drain your mana and stats, while being invisible :D 09:09:14 omg! 09:09:17 you mean guys 09:09:18 @??ghost moth 09:09:18 ghost moth (06y) | Speed: 12 | HD: 13 | Health: 52-88 | AC/EV: 16/10 | Damage: 24, 2405(drain dexterity), 1205(strong poison) | Flags: fly | Res: 06magic(104), 02cold, 03poison | Chunks: 06mutagenic | XP: 3704. 09:09:30 (but they used to do this, AND deal the melee damage) 09:09:49 (updating Gretell's db) 09:09:59 (thanks!) 09:10:01 I mean before the nerf, people were supporting them in zot 09:10:01 I haven't been following recently 09:10:01 haven't had much time 09:10:01 -!- casmith789 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:10:27 Yeah, that's true.. the original damage would probably be better for Zot 09:10:42 Maybe we should have two flavours of the monster 09:10:47 Keskitalo: there is enough damage in Zot 09:10:53 stealing MP is a new threat 09:11:00 (and call the harder variant GIANT ghost moth) =) 09:11:05 death ghost moth? dire ghost moth? 09:11:13 well, we could've put eyes of draining in Zot too 09:11:21 except they don't sneak up on the player very well 09:11:37 dpeg_: But I think you're right about the damage 09:11:40 ancient ghost moth? 09:11:43 Keskitalo: the moth is very good now 09:11:44 :) 09:11:57 okay :) 09:12:47 per the discussion from yesterday, wraith moth, spirit moth, eidolon moth, other-rare-greek-word-for-ghost moth 09:13:38 moth of envy 09:15:07 -!- casmith789 has joined ##crawl-dev 09:15:43 Keskitalo: systematically, moth of draining might be good 09:16:39 moth of murder 09:16:44 moth of YASD :p 09:17:01 "of destruction" is probably overdone 09:17:09 @??ghost moth 09:17:09 ghost moth (06y) | Speed: 12 | HD: 10 | Health: 39-70 | AC/EV: 10/10 | Damage: 805(drain strength), 8, 12 | Flags: fly | Res: 06magic(80), 02cold, 03poison | Chunks: 06mutagenic | XP: 971. 09:18:46 envy works with wrath if you wanted a sins theme 09:19:14 haha then you can have a moth of sloth 09:20:25 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:21:40 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 09:21:40 -!- paxed has quit [Changing host] 09:21:40 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 09:24:18 -!- casmith789 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:26:16 03Keskitalo * rdfe7c8a3c27f 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-mon/animals/alligator_snapping_turtle.png: Quick horizontal flip of the alligator snapping turtle tile, to make it more obviously different from regular snapping turtles. 09:28:57 dpeg: should I subscribe to crawl-ref-devel? 09:29:34 Galehar: It's deprecated 09:29:40 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:29:41 hmm, I think =) 09:29:42 oh ok 09:29:47 Galehar: perhaps, yeah. But not much is going on there... it didn't really work and now I rather use the hand-made mails. 09:29:54 The one I sent today, for example. 09:30:12 it's still mentionned in the stone soup development process on the wiki 09:30:36 yes, using hand-made e-mails is better 09:30:45 Galehar: documentation lags behind reality :) 09:30:54 which sucks of course, I'll see if I can update it.. 09:30:57 it was okay, back when the alternative was sourceforge ;) 09:31:27 crawl-ref-devel/crawl-ref-discuss are sourceforge 09:33:56 process.txt sure needs an overhaul 09:35:01 -!- monky has joined ##crawl-dev 09:37:19 haha, spiders nest without rPois :) 09:37:55 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 09:40:25 Keskitalo: the "crumbling" is a bit unfitting for the Spider entrance. Have there been other proposals? 09:41:02 Yeah, minmay suggested something, it's on the portal vaults wiki page. 09:41:31 ok 09:41:40 I fled after picking up the gold 09:41:49 no rPois and no SInv... 09:46:19 It's nasty that the ghost moth will follow you out of the vault. :) 09:47:52 yes, but here I knew it wouldn't 09:48:16 Temporary "see invisible" might be a good food item effect 09:48:29 <3 09:48:36 Keskitalo: true 09:48:41 or just sense invisible 09:48:44 mushroom! 09:48:45 "sultanas of seeing" 09:48:52 Gives two turns of see invisible 09:49:06 dpeg_: Is there a player equivalent of sense invisible? The antenna effect? 09:49:08 but the effect fits better with mushrooms 09:49:10 should be carrots :P 09:49:11 That would be cool, yeah 09:49:17 dpeg_: Yeah, mushrooms are good 09:49:23 Keskitalo: just show something's there (~) but not what it is. 09:49:32 Mu_: nethack!!! 09:49:43 You probably know already what it is, you just want to know where the damn bugger sits. 09:49:44 oh :P 09:49:47 Mu_: true. 09:49:50 dpeg_: But I was thinking it could be really short and appear in the small, numerous food items (sultanas, grapes or straweberries) - it would be an interesting combo 09:50:09 I believe we should have mushrooms and flowers (no joke). 09:50:10 (actually, in nethack it's "cure blindness", not "see invis", but) 09:50:11 (: 09:51:22 How dated is release.txt ? I did update it to git back in the day, but I remember rob was frustrated with it after 0.7 09:51:49 heh, homepage bit still talks of crawl-ref.sourceforge.net 09:51:51 a sinv food item would make the spell pretty worthless (if it wasn't already), as I see it, for what it's worth 09:52:40 monky: no, I don't think so 09:52:59 I think you hit better if you actually see the monster; the item might just sense it. 09:53:08 Also, the item is rare, the spell is reliable. 09:53:15 hm 09:54:35 randart weapon, and missile brand: invisible - harder to hit with and to dodge 09:55:27 monky: I think the spell is also occasionally useful until late: even if you have SInv items, you can choose to use something else instead, if you keep the spell. 09:57:20 mushroom should have drawbacks 09:57:33 I put something on the wiki about mushrooms a while back 09:57:49 haven't thought of sinv then, but it's a good idea 09:58:27 Galehar: chance for drawback would suffice 09:58:34 true 09:58:51 I think the ghost moth is one of [possibly too] few dangerous invisible monsters past the point of being able to get the sinv spell 09:59:41 but not everyone is a spellcaster 09:59:52 right 10:00:23 This page is <3: http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/downloads 10:00:37 the moth can be dangerous even to casters with SInv 10:00:53 my opinion, though, is there's not much reason to memorize it, currently, since dangerous monsters tend not to go invis 10:01:03 others I can recall off the top of my head: vapour (can be a pain if bolts bounce), unseen horror (for squishy ev-based chars, especially once they can't get much ac) 10:01:56 monky: it is okay if the spell is situational 10:02:00 I tend to avoid the elven halls if i don't have sinv 10:02:07 oh right Elf too 10:02:10 unlike all the other Div spells, it is _tactical_ 10:02:17 right 10:02:41 I'm not arguing against that 10:02:50 as I said, a caster may buy the freedom to wear cap of Int over cap of SInv due to this spell 10:03:20 clear case: we need an invisibilising moth 10:03:27 Ooh, nice. 10:03:38 makes other monsters invisible? 10:03:48 that would be nice 10:03:50 see monster glyph ... see only ~ for a few turns ... see nothing 10:04:46 I just got a mail by dolorous in which he asks which names for the holy scourge were okay. 10:04:52 And I don't recall anymore. Do you? 10:08:05 Sacred scourge was proposed 10:09:12 the main point was to get rid of the "holy"? 10:10:44 I don't really know. There was also discussion about conflict with an unrandard named Serpent-Scourge 10:11:06 03Keskitalo * r249babfb225c 10/crawl-ref/docs/develop/process.txt: Update the process description. 10:11:07 03Keskitalo * ree35d506d894 10/crawl-ref/docs/develop/patch_guide.txt: Slightly update the patching guide (mention Implementables). 10:11:10 03Keskitalo * rc9c954e4b06c 10/crawl-ref/docs/develop/release.txt: Update the homepage portion of the release guide. 10:12:26 X - the cursed +5 plate mail of Okawaru's Esteem (worn) {rElec EV+2} 10:12:37 annoying donor, but I'll be kind and use it 10:12:56 Keskitalo: thank you 10:13:05 :) 10:13:16 Are there any objections to Sacred Scourge? 10:13:26 Speak up now, and only with a replacement :) 10:13:31 dpeg_: "scourge" and "sacred scourge" were considered ok, with Serpent-Scourge needing replacement 10:14:03 we could rename it to Lither-Lash ;) 10:14:37 no, I'm thinking of "slithering" 10:14:39 :P 10:15:04 "Serpent-Slasher"? 10:15:32 dpeg_: I also updated http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/tracker :) 10:15:33 ??serpent scourge 10:15:33 I don't have a page labeled serpent_scourge in my learndb. 10:15:43 Keskitalo: what is its base type atm? 10:15:44 what has serpent-slasher to do with it being affective vs undead/demons? :S 10:16:02 effective* :( 10:16:46 ok, so proposals for Serpent Scourge names then 10:17:29 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 10:17:46 ??serpentscourge 10:17:46 serpentscourge[1/1]: This is an unrandart +5, +10 whip of venom with poison resistance. Not bad for poisoning. Not good otherwise. 10:17:52 hey, did I mention my dad won TrBe too now? 3 of them, to be precise :D 10:18:04 Napkin: your dad's raging! 10:18:17 Does he play online? 10:18:28 nah, he needs tiles 10:18:28 wyrmtongue 10:18:29 wasn't this learndb entry obsoleted by whip buff? 10:18:56 can't get him to play non-trog char though ;) 10:19:05 wow 10:19:07 yet 10:19:19 We Germans just like book burning so much, I can relate. 10:19:25 doooh 10:19:26 * dpeg_ throws another one into fire. 10:19:31 hehe 10:19:43 Napkin: Go dad! =) 10:19:58 Napkin: tell him nemelex is kinda similar 10:20:03 haha 10:20:12 Napkin: he plays and wins on his own by now? 10:20:28 yesterday he was like "oh, spend half the day in Abyss - so much fun with a stealthy char!" :D 10:20:37 awesome, truly awesome 10:20:41 yes, of course, David 10:21:08 Napkin: I assume your dad speaks English? 10:21:29 I can't accompany him all the time - damn retirees ;D 10:21:35 yes, he does 10:24:34 anyways, trying to get him to play Kobold next 10:24:43 is permafood coloured brown now for any particular reason? 10:27:31 upsy: inventory or floor? 10:27:39 inventory 10:30:59 Missed a bailey :( 10:31:18 :( 10:31:32 man making a vault is exhausting :D 10:31:35 you could just call the whip 'Snakebite' 10:35:02 -!- casmith789 has joined ##crawl-dev 10:35:30 thank you 10:35:36 rkd: we know :) 10:35:56 rkd: but think of all the pleasure when players will stumble through your vault! 10:36:01 Clueless!! 10:36:06 Soon dead!!! 10:36:14 :) 10:39:59 vault-making is intentionally hard, so that only the most malicious will finish vaults 10:40:52 FR: subscription so you can receive replay of deaths in specific vaults (yours of course!) 10:40:56 well the thing I like most about radiant caverns is that I can put out some ball lightnings :D 10:41:07 We have several teams which will process any innocous vault into a killing machine. 10:41:15 Galehar: <3 10:41:56 rkd: that's good thinking... showing off interesting, but rare monsters (or other pieces) is a good idea. 10:43:08 <3 to snakebite 10:43:20 have to go 10:43:25 see you later 10:43:32 I'll commit my pipe ;) 10:44:07 -!- casmith789 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:44:09 hey sequell lets you query by map now so you can already find who died in your vaults :P 10:44:21 !lg * map=~_mu s=map 10:44:21 263 games for * (map=~ mu): 214x lemuel entry muddy, 11x jmf multi god temple2, 9x jmf multi god temple, 7x quadcrypt mu, 4x tar mu, 4x vestibule of hell mu, 4x geh mu, 3x minislime mu, 2x horrible house mu, 2x elemental lab mu, 1x ancient champions mu, 1x dis mu, 1x coc mu 10:44:55 Galehar: yay 10:45:16 Mu_: hey, most credits go to Lemuel :P 10:45:29 -!- Galehar has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:45:35 entries are cheating :P 10:45:46 of course 10:46:49 yea entries even I can make 10:46:51 :D 10:47:14 full levels are annoying tho, I'm such a nitpick aswell so can't decide on stuff 10:47:39 trying to set out monsters now 10:48:03 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:square_los seems to be contributing to my headache 10:50:12 -!- jld has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:50:48 -!- casmith789 has joined ##crawl-dev 10:52:09 thought: bear hands would be a great xom spell 10:56:12 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 10:56:45 -!- jld has joined ##crawl-dev 10:58:26 -!- Pacra has quit [Client Quit] 11:01:29 I could use some bear claws 11:01:31 ;d 11:01:44 -!- ortoslon has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:04:20 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 11:06:04 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 11:10:24 Drew a couple of pictures: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:branch:spider#wall-clinging 11:14:08 Keskitalo: the second not okay move feels wrong 11:16:33 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 11:18:54 Eronarn: Perhaps the rule should be: "You need to be adjacent to at least two wall squares" instead of the cardinal direction thing? 11:19:38 Hmm, that doesn't work either, if there is a single pillar 11:19:59 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 11:20:22 Keskitalo: i wouldn't know where to start in making a proof of this, but 11:20:33 i think you need to take into account where they were last turn to have it work like it 'feels' like it should 11:21:19 like: it has to be contiguous to a tile that is contiguous to one you were on last time you moved 11:22:03 in other words, in the second 'not ok one', you could move there... but you couldn't then cross the water 11:22:08 you could only round the corner 11:22:26 the first one under 'okay' is the one that seems odd to me 11:22:45 the issue would be that, say, in a long tunnel, you might forget what side you were on 11:22:47 but yeah, also what eronarn said 11:22:57 so we could display that with changin the wall tile that you're currently 'stuck' to, or something 11:23:00 I think both moves are good. 11:23:18 It is simple and gets across the idea. 11:23:45 i think that just 'adjacent to any wall tile' is fine, don't need the 'cardinal direction' part 11:24:01 but keeping track of which wall tile you're attached to would be an improvement 11:24:12 yeah, unless you do that you can cross 2-tile-wide gulfs 11:24:16 which is not so good 11:24:25 yeah 11:24:35 i'm not even sure we should permit 1 tile wide 11:24:43 hence my concern with the first one under 'okay' 11:24:43 (: 11:24:52 I was thinking that the spider (or so) would jump across the gulf in the first move example. 11:25:06 Keskitalo: remember that 1 tile is *big* 11:25:08 big enough to fit a dragon 11:25:13 hehe :) 11:25:32 i'm not strictly against allowing that, but i think it's more interesting if we don't 11:25:36 yeah, no jump is fine with me (as is "adjacent to a wall tile in any direction") 11:26:07 Eronarn: I think you're right, at least regarding spider form - it restricts movement more 11:26:13 (also, if we made it based on being adjacent to a wall without 'jumping', we could directly reuse some of the code for a "turn into a shadow on a wall" ability) 11:26:36 I worry about trapping monsters.. but I guess that happens in any case (and happens with deepwater etc anyway) 11:26:43 so a reasonable implementation of this would just be to keep track of the (single) wall tile you're stuck to 11:26:51 and recolor that tile or something 11:26:57 The other obvious rule is just checking a single adjacent wall. 11:27:07 and then you could only move to tiles adjacent to wall tiles adjacent to the tile you're stuck to 11:27:11 But I don't like idea of being adjacent to just one, diagonal wall.- 11:27:33 Tracking where the spider came from is too much, imo. 11:27:35 and the stuck tile moves along with you as necessary 11:28:04 I honestly don't see a problem with Eino's rule. 11:28:14 ah, I only now picked up the side thing, in a 1-wide corridor 11:28:25 Keskitalo: tell me? 11:28:32 dpeg_: i think it wouldn't be that hard to make work in an obvious way, and i think preventing spiders from jumping across rivers is somewhat important 11:28:46 doy: why? 11:29:02 For monster or player spiders? (I don't see why it's important for either.) 11:29:08 dpeg_: it really doesn't feel at all like wall clinging 11:29:21 dpeg_: it makes it feel like you're actually on the wall's surface, which is different from the wall's tiles 11:29:44 we can view the former but without additional code tracking attachment we can't make spiders stick to it 11:30:02 so it will feel weird during gameplay that you 'know' that, say, a tunnel one wide has two 'sides' 11:30:12 but that spiderform doesn't know this 11:30:31 ok, so the walls between departure and destination have to share edge or corner. Allows Eino's 2) (which is good), but disallows 1). 11:30:39 how do I do this, but for monsters "Among all A, B, and C glyphs, make one a floor and the rest walls. 11:30:40 NSUBST: ABC = 1:. / *:x" 11:31:04 rkd: exactly the same 11:31:05 that's basically what tracking the attachment location would do 11:31:07 rkd: ummm... use monster glyphs instead of floor/wall glyphs? 11:31:34 Eronarn: there are only the current and adjacent position involved 11:31:34 there are a few ways you could implement that tracking... am not math-y enough to say whether you can do it 'just' looking at the target/current 11:31:48 or whether you need to look at their surroundings too, etc. 11:31:52 dpeg_: unless the current location is ambiguous 11:31:56 Well, you can spider-form in a corridor 11:32:01 dpeg_: consider not-ok-2 11:32:11 you shouldn't be able to then move north from there 11:32:11 what is not-ok-2? 11:32:14 ah 11:32:14 as the move over that 11:32:19 s/over/after/ 11:32:43 Step 1: collect all walls the spider clings to now. 11:32:54 Step 2: collect all walls the spider will be clinging to after move. 11:33:14 Step 3: only move if there is a common corner between walls from Steps 1 and 2. 11:33:24 what does 'common corner' mean? 11:33:39 xx have a common corner, x.x don' 11:33:40 t 11:34:28 the issue is, any rule like that would either disallow moving at all after the position at not-ok-2, or it would allow moving both north or west 11:35:28 the rule is symmetric: if you got somewhere, you'll also get back 11:35:56 dpeg_: using your rule, what moves are allowable from the not-ok-2 position? 11:35:59 one other thing we could do is simply have the spiders move 'inside' walls, like rock worms do, but not be able to pass 'through' them (something like, calc LOS from the wall, then calc LOS from the spot next to the wall, and anything #2 can't see, subtract out of #1) 11:36:06 the spider in not-ok-2 is not clinging to any wall, it is just clinging to a corner, which I would abolish 11:36:15 disadvantage to this is a little uglier on the interface (having to actually move 'inside' the wall 11:36:16 Eronarn: eych 11:36:18 ah, sorry 11:36:27 advantage to this is that it lets spiders come out of corridors 3-at-a-time 11:36:35 by crawling on the walls as well as floor 11:36:44 the second s can move NW or S with my rules 11:36:58 Eronarn: Spider Nest's layout is supposed to not have chocking point-style corridors 11:37:06 of course, that would make the effect happen in other layouts 11:37:26 doy: the first one can only move S and N 11:37:31 dpeg_: what if the far wall was moved two tiles south? 11:37:37 Keskitalo: personally, i would rather see choking point style corridors that don't hamper the spiders 11:37:49 for example, the small tunnels proposal i made a while back 11:38:06 show up as ^, can be dug out as if they were rock walls, walkable by tiny races only 11:38:19 Yeah, that's a good proposal. 11:38:28 Eronarn: you can already do with the more sane rule by having something like xw.wx extended upwards 11:38:51 those plus spiders living "inside" walls = corridors too tiny for you, but big enough to fit a whopping 3 spiders per turn streaming out 11:38:52 doy: same 11:39:12 (more, actually, since most spiders are speedy) 11:39:17 Eronarn: no need for complicated things... you can get the spider flush without it 11:39:21 dpeg_: how would your rule prevent moving ne? 11:39:31 doy: there's no common corner 11:39:49 dpeg_: you can get the wall walking part, but not the more-spiders-per-corridor, which is a function of how many spaces are available to put monsters in 11:39:57 i really don't understand this 'common corner' part 11:40:00 i don't think it's well defined 11:40:07 huh? :) 11:40:20 Eronarn: we are interested in a simple rule for a cool idea. 11:40:34 If we start placing spiders inside walls, we get a complicated solution. 11:40:49 can you type "2:stone golem" or "2: stone golem" ? 11:41:02 to make 2 stone golems of a glyph :P 11:41:03 dpeg_: well, we already have rock worms :) 11:41:08 doy: two squares share a corner if they're diagonal or adjacent. 11:41:29 rkd: what do you mean? 11:41:31 i'm actually pleasantly surprised at how rock worms work given how broken they could've been 11:41:47 rkd: I think you want to put stone golem in the second MONS slot 11:41:51 rkd: you'd use "2:1" where '1' is the glyph for stone golem 11:41:57 MONS: stone golem 11:41:59 for instance 11:42:13 oh I thought he wanted to set stone golem to 2 11:43:40 dpeg_: and how would that outer wall not be a common corner? 11:43:48 I like my rule because it is very simple. :) I don't mind the jumping, and hanging onto a square corner seems very strange to me. 11:43:51 the spider would be adjacent to it both before and afterwards 11:43:52 I got 4 'J' I want 2 of them to turn into glowing shapeshifter, and the other 2 randomly into chaos spawn or pulsating lump 11:43:53 :P 11:43:57 doy: can you draw a picture in the channel, please? 11:44:34 (I mean, the jumping is an intended feature. Fly gecko, fly!) 11:44:35 Okay, here the problems with Eronarn's proposal: 1) There is a spider form, but no rock worm form. 2) How to indicate that the spider is at the wall (also think of tiles). Rock worm indicates in its name that it lives in rock. 11:44:54 dpeg_: on my termcast 11:45:07 NSUBST: X = 2:A / 1:B / 1:C 11:45:17 KMONS: A = glowing shapeshifter 11:45:21 ah thanks 11:45:25 got it :) 11:45:33 KMONS: B = chaos spawn / pulsating lump 11:45:34 etc. 11:45:51 there 11:45:54 (^ doy) 11:46:11 yea, I want most of the parts random/shuffled so that you wont face the same monsters or at the same place all the time 11:46:32 dpeg_: ? 11:46:41 doy: picture one: the s can move NE, NW, S 11:47:00 doy: picture two: the s can move S, SE, NE, NW 11:47:24 doy: picture three: the s can move S, NW 11:47:44 in three, the s clings to just _one_ wall before moving 11:48:04 Keskitalo: still with us? 11:49:08 so by 'common corner' you mean 'common wall tile' 11:49:16 and you are ignoring diagonal things entirely 11:49:17 I think it's the same. 11:49:32 I mean the corners of the little squares which make up the grid. 11:49:34 'corner' is just a confusing word to use there 11:49:35 (: 11:49:37 ok 11:50:15 xxxxxxxxxx 11:50:17 .x..x..x.. 11:50:22 ..x..x..x 11:50:24 xxxxxxxxxx 11:50:43 You could also ask for a slightly less restrictive rule. One that allows you to move in all directions in the above example. 11:51:00 i think more restrictive is more interesting 11:51:15 which is most of the motivation for my comments here 11:51:16 (: 11:51:36 sticking to walls should feel different from normal moving around 11:51:47 suppose you have an s at any spot in the second row in my example -- do you want it to move S? 11:52:08 no 11:52:14 dpeg_: not without coming off of the wall 11:52:22 Keskitalo: I think the crucial question is this: if you have ...slxxx, should the s be allowed to cross the lava? 11:52:41 that should obviously be no 11:52:53 doy: Keskitalo might mean yes, iiuc 11:53:06 Yes, I mean yes. Jumpy! 11:53:11 Seen Arachnophobia? :) 11:53:13 the above example is interesting because it has more walls... I don't think it would be out of place to allow the S move there 11:53:51 Same as ever: a little, interesting concept. We have four opinions by now. 11:54:12 Keskitalo: i can vaguely see jumping from high up on a wall to another wall across there 11:54:19 but from the floor it just seems silly d: 11:54:33 there are spiders which actually jump 11:54:37 Perhaps, but it keeps the rule simple for both implementation and paly. 11:54:49 But we have the jumping spider as a monster already. 11:55:20 Keskitalo: saw your new picture :) 11:55:25 I agree it would be too much for e.g. a wall-clinging slug or a slime, but for spiders and geckos it would be ok. 11:55:29 in any case, if tracking state is completely unacceptable, i prefer dpeg's rule over Keskitalo's 11:56:02 doy: I didn't even get what you mean by tracking, I just think it shouldn't be done (and is not necessary). 11:56:25 dpeg_: i mean that you're attached to some specific wall tile 11:56:40 and you can't move anywhere not adjacent to the tile you're stuck to without coming off the wall 11:57:10 so in my first example on termcast, you'd be able to move either ne or nw, but not both 11:57:20 (depending on where you started clinging to the wall) 11:57:47 this could be shown by recoloring the tile you're currently stuck to in some way 11:58:22 what would happen if you entered a corridor in such a way that you could be clinging to either of two walls 11:58:36 The waveform collapses when you pick a side? :) 11:58:58 <3 11:59:01 (: 11:59:23 i'd say you should move into the wall you want to stick to, to activate sticking 11:59:42 yeah, that's what makes the most sense interface-wise 11:59:47 in case of, say, a wall adjacent to lava 12:00:02 moving into the lava feels wrong 12:00:26 yeah, again with the 'this should feel different from normal movement' 12:00:36 Sounds ok to me. 12:01:27 How to teach this to the player? 12:01:48 Does it take a turn? (For monsters, also?) 12:02:12 i'd say it shouldn't take a turn 12:02:39 no colouring of walls please 12:04:02 I am typing my own rule in the wiki. 12:04:15 dpeg_: good! 12:04:16 it would be recoloring a single wall tile at a time, i don't think that would be particularly confusing 12:05:00 still not good enough 12:05:38 no need for modality here 12:06:04 think of save/load, or monster spiders 12:06:53 save/load or monster spiders would be handled by a single coord_def on the actor class 12:08:37 -!- ortoslon has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:12:27 03dolorous * ra9c3a316d202 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-summoning.cc: Simplify the holy being summoning message, since more are available. 12:12:41 I'm not too fond of the colouring idea either, I could live with it though, but I see it as a symptom of unnecessary complexity. :) Also, should the walls that a monster clings to be coloured also? 12:13:04 Spider Form movement being clearly more restricted than say Flying is a plus though. 12:14:27 yes 12:18:24 -!- gamefreak264 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:21:04 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:21:37 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:branch:spider#wall-clinging 12:21:40 damn 12:22:01 * dpeg_ is too slow. 12:22:22 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 12:22:29 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:branch:spider#wall-clinging 12:22:33 Keskitalo: please read 12:22:47 You disconnected just before I was done. 12:23:31 We also need to decide which monsters get the CLING_WALL flag 12:23:44 doy: do you understand my rule idea better now? 12:24:47 dpeg_: Reading, thanks! 12:25:36 sorear: have you ever played Brogue? 12:29:56 -!- gamefreak264 has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:31:18 hmmm. does "KMONS: K = molten gargoyle / fire elemental / clay golem" mean that K will be a mix of these 3 or that K will be one of these 3? I got several 'K's 12:31:58 rkd: random choice for every K 12:32:04 k good 12:32:21 dpeg_: Hey, thanks for the web trap edit too :) 12:32:22 if you want all K's to be the same (one of gargoyle, elemental, golem), you use KMONS: K : molten .... 12:32:28 Keskitalo: does it make sense? 12:32:31 Largen than one tile web trap sounds like a fun concept 12:32:55 I think the spiders should be able to walk in the diagonal-style patters of my last picture. 12:33:18 Keskitalo: I am thinking of patterns like 12:33:23 ..^..^.. 12:33:28 .^^.^.^. 12:33:32 ..^^.^. 12:33:35 etc. 12:34:10 Yeah, that would be neat. 12:34:18 as for eronarn's idea about monsters being able to swarm you inside corridors and stuff 12:34:24 i think that would work better in Forest 12:34:33 packs of monkeys with rock worm movement or so 12:34:48 doy: you can easily make spider swarming with above proposal too 12:35:03 doy: kilobyte wants dropbears :) 12:35:23 but yes, monkeys in trees are less problematic than spiders in walls 12:35:24 dpeg_: no, in corridors, they can still only come at you two at a time 12:35:41 x~.~x 12:35:42 x~.~x 12:35:42 x~.~x 12:35:42 x~.~x 12:35:49 they come in threes 12:36:08 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 12:36:08 dpeg_: sure, but the layout would have to be specifically designed for that 12:36:15 of course 12:36:15 and it would look odd 12:36:16 (: 12:36:44 i mean, a spider minivault that looked like that would be cool 12:36:47 I am thinking of vaults like 12:36:53 xsssssss 12:36:53 but for a whole level layout, i don't think it'd work 12:36:54 xsssssss 12:37:00 x~~~~~~~~ 12:37:01 x~~~~~~~~ 12:37:06 x.@....... 12:37:15 they will all come over :) 12:37:25 doy: no, I didn't say that 12:37:49 does anyone mind if I interrupt everyone's wall-walking wiki edits for some new spider-themed monster ideas? 12:38:01 hmz, now just to add monsters to the castle part :o 12:38:05 sure, just saying i think it'd be more interesting as a more general threat(: 12:39:08 dpeg_: Does orthogonally adjacent in your proposal mean like the same thing as my "cardinal direction" thing? (yes, my grasp of geometry and math is awesome) 12:39:33 Keskitalo: orthogonal = up/down/left/right 12:39:35 could retheme 'Forest' as 'Jungle' too, and introduce felid monsters there (lions, tigers, panthers, etc) 12:39:38 (: 12:39:46 Keskitalo: so I think yes :) 12:39:52 Okay. :) 12:39:58 I might be finnished with one vault today. tho I am extremely unsure of amount of loot 12:40:11 rkd: if you're unsure, cut it in half 12:40:12 d: 12:40:13 doy: I want Forest to be an organic level, where you have to hack through the re-growing bush 12:40:30 (at least) 12:40:31 rkd: that is normal. We're right now re-looting baileys. 12:40:40 dpeg_: yeah, that'd be cool 12:40:45 well I've put in no loot atm, leaving it for last 12:41:02 also, not all vaults need loot 12:41:23 dpeg_: Okay, sounds pretty close to my proposal in gameplay/interface simplicity, and restricts the movement more, so I like it. 12:41:24 portal vaults? 12:41:35 Keskitalo: \o 12:41:49 I don't think I've ever seen a lootless portal vault, but maybe I haven't seen enough 12:42:03 monky: no, a portal vault has to give _something_ 12:42:14 yeah, i'm mainly referring to minivaults 12:42:15 even if it is just an odd god 12:42:16 doy: Early wall-clinging giant geckos would be pretty cool if they went "inside" the walls --- I just dislike that going inside walls bit a lot. :P 12:42:38 Keskitalo: we need to settle what monsters should get CLING_WALL flags 12:42:55 the 'going inside the walls' thing would be cool, except that walls aren't really two-sided in crawl 12:43:02 so it wouldn't really work 12:43:13 well, you could trace where the monster entered 12:43:20 but I am not sure that's worth it 12:43:31 that would get complicated really quickly 12:43:35 for weird wall patterns 12:43:38 we're visually handicapped with console, no need to push the envolope too far 12:43:47 dpeg_: Yup, I've thought about it a bit earlier and the giant gecko is pretty much the only one I remember besides the spiders that I thought should get it. 12:43:56 sounds good to me 12:44:04 I assume that geckos aren't amphibious? 12:44:04 should at least have one demon with it 12:44:10 exorcism-style 12:44:11 (: 12:44:12 doy: Oh, true. 12:44:14 demonic clinger 12:44:24 demonic crawler is already an 's' 12:44:31 hey, good idea 12:44:54 the description also mentions a bazillion feet 12:45:10 dpeg_: Yeah, giant geckos aren't amphibious 12:45:19 with wall-clinging, they'd be cool in Sewer 12:45:45 Could replace all the newts with them :P 12:46:05 Keskitalo: or some 12:46:06 @??giant gecko 12:46:07 giant gecko (08l) | Speed: 12 | HD: 1 | Health: 3-8 | AC/EV: 1/14 | Damage: 5 | Flags: cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(4) | XP: 2. 12:46:26 * Keskitalo hungers for more sewer kills 12:46:42 would also want a suffix like (clings), for monster descriptions, and perhaps also for monster list. 12:47:05 Yes. Hey, drowning critters with Dig? 12:47:18 Almost as cool as blasting them to bits with disintegration. 12:47:37 Wensley: I forgot to say, that more Nest monster ideas are very welcome! :) 12:47:47 what happens if the player gets dug out like that; hope for scrambling? 12:47:58 monky: monsters don't use dig 12:48:02 like that anyway 12:48:07 Like I said in the wiki, I doubt we have a dangerous enough mix of monsters for Spider:5 yet. 12:48:08 Wensley: hurry up, I need to improve my presentation, too :) 12:48:24 could boring beetles do it 12:48:36 monky: Yes! 12:48:43 hmmm, i suppose they could 12:48:54 but you get warning of that 12:48:58 with all this spider talk, I need to dust off the spider god 12:49:01 'grinding noise' or whatever 12:49:05 I wonder if boring beetles try to go around monsters into walls when the player is camping in a corridor (maybe I should check) 12:49:18 it is not worse than running out of piety with Beogh while water walking 12:49:29 dpeg: page freed 12:49:36 true 12:49:50 how about eye of devastation 12:50:13 monky: Oh yeah. 12:50:19 everyone else: please take a look at my new spider monster ideas (four of which are based on actual spiders) and tell me how much you like/hate them :) 12:50:19 Wensley: thanks (also for input, of course) 12:50:40 * dpeg_ is happy to have the page 12:51:49 Looks like the beetle digs **some** walls, but not in the most crucial case: 12:51:51 xxxxxxxxxxxx 12:51:57 ....Bgg@..... 12:52:01 xxxxxxxxxxxx 12:52:06 do cacodemons ever dig? I'd be a bit worried about them spawning from hell effects if climbing walls in coc/geh 12:53:06 monky: they have dig, but i don't think they ever use it anymore? 12:53:08 i could be wrong 12:53:19 i don't really know what a monster with dig is supposed to use it for anyway 12:53:43 @??cacodemon 12:53:44 Cacodemon (081) | Speed: 10 | HD: 13 | Health: 52-91 | AC/EV: 11/10 | Damage: 22 | Flags: 05demonic, see invisible, lev, regen, !sil | Res: 06magic(156), 10elec++, 03poison | XP: 1404 | Sp: call imp, polymorph other, b.dig, demon. 12:53:45 (while being in hell with hell effects is a good enough warning, I think climbing walls in hells is nifty) 12:54:32 hmm considering if I should put any eye monsters or not in radiant caverns. feels a bit too much slime 12:55:21 Digging demons were cool in DC2.67 (or something) - monster always knew where you were, so a demon with Dig was very spooky to encounter. 12:55:26 rkd: just take all the eyes out of slime, then 12:55:29 They used it to get at you. 12:55:38 oooohhh 12:55:42 Keskitalo: aha, that would make more sense 12:55:44 (: 12:55:46 what happened to that? 12:55:55 monky: monsters stopped always knowing where you are 12:55:56 (: 12:56:08 well eyes don't really need to go into radiant caverns imo. nonliving is quite alot of monsters 12:56:09 cacodemons could be special 12:56:17 monky: i agree, that would be pretty awesome 12:56:38 and then some shapeshifters + chaos spawn and pulsating lump would be enough for living creatures 12:57:22 are there any (very) ugly things, or would that push it too far into cigotuvi's realm 12:57:57 rkd: add a statue that attempts to polymorph everything in sight every turn (radiant crystal statue) 12:58:05 Keskitalo: we should re-establish that behaviour: sentinels (hell lords, pan lords) know where you are and dig towards you. Likewise, they dig to flee (used to do that in 4.1). 12:58:18 Wensley good idea actually. tho I have no idea how to make a monster :D 12:58:46 dpeg_: no. 12:59:03 Wensley: +1 to happy fun yaks 12:59:18 Kekitalo: they could be a new zot monster :P 12:59:33 Wensley: More seriously, I like the swarm/cloud of spiders idea, and Deinopidae thing could be combined with the jumping spiders. 13:00:06 sorear: more detail please? 13:00:11 [19:57] rkd: add a statue that attempts to polymorph everything in sight every turn (radiant crystal statue) <-- could someone make this happen for radiant caverns please? :D 13:00:24 -!- syllogism has quit [] 13:00:31 doy: 12:25 <+dpeg_> sorear: have you ever played Brogue? 13:00:31 well not every turn, but a mutating statue anyway 13:00:34 oh 13:00:49 dpeg_: in any case, that wouldn't work because hell and pan lords are all patrolling 13:01:10 it'd still be cool for a couple special-cased monsters though 13:01:24 sorear: the Brogue guy has pretty cool ideas, so I wondered how good his game is. 13:02:02 Keskitalo: I'm glad you like the swarm cloud idea, I was really excited at the concept but I was afraid people would reject it for being ultra-weird 13:03:26 Wensley: I just added support to this specific idea :) 13:03:57 thank you :D 13:04:16 doy: I don't see how digging for attack/defense clashes with patrolling. 13:04:34 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 13:04:39 dpeg_: they should be sticking near the rune, not digging through walls to find you 13:05:07 alright 13:05:14 so it is better for random Pan lords 13:05:23 sure 13:05:39 although the surprise of a hell/pan lord coming to get you would be awesome 13:05:45 might go nicely with a pan overhaul (to optimize pan for this sort of behavior) 13:05:47 none of this endless preparation business 13:05:52 monky: yes 13:06:22 dpeg_: in that case, you just wait until they do, teleport until you're vaguely near the rune, grab it, and teleport out 13:06:29 this is why we made them patrolling 13:06:30 (: 13:06:44 doy: this assumes more stupidity on their part than necessary :) 13:06:48 I've thought that they should teleport to where you landed when that happens 13:06:59 st_: how nethack-ish 13:07:45 yes, it is a bit cheap 13:08:08 ??primal mass of chaos 13:08:09 I don't have a page labeled primal_mass_of_chaos in my learndb. 13:08:16 but digging towards the police... it is like the police coming after you 13:08:18 :S 13:08:27 rkd: what are you looking for? 13:08:59 well it's an adom monster, but can't remember the correct name either 13:09:11 ah writhing mass of primal chaos! 13:09:28 it's what I imagine a pulsating lump is :p 13:10:31 Keskitalo: you mind me adding moths as a new category to "new monsters"? 13:11:19 dpeg_: Go ahead! 13:13:03 A huge queue on the page :P 13:17:56 Keskitalo: Implementables :) 13:18:19 The problem is that we cannot simply add tons of monsters. We also have to improve/remove existing monsters. 13:23:03 oh hey, didn't even know that a "new monsters" page existed. are my new spider monsters fine as they are, or should I copy/paste their descriptions to that page, or just add links to "new monsters" leading to the spider page? 13:23:20 dpeg_: Could make a cool bunch of implementables from "tweaks to existing monsters" 13:23:46 Wensley: I guess you can add a link from the new monsters page, but being on the spider page is enough. 13:24:04 I think there is one, actually 13:25:25 ah, there is, right at the top there. that works 13:26:00 hm, I want to make 'x' be with a large weight 'x' and with a small weight 'b'. "NSUBST: x = w:5 x / w:1 b" 13:26:06 is that correct? :P 13:26:43 probably not 13:26:54 rkd: what do you want to do? 13:27:23 I want to make the walls that are now called x, to be either a rock wall or a crystal wall. but low chance for crystal wall 13:27:44 rkd: each indiviudal wall tile, or all tiles? 13:27:54 each individual 13:29:14 would that just be "SUBST: x = xxxxxb"? (i'm not really a mapper, so i'm not sure) 13:29:15 SUBST: x = b w:1 x 13:29:17 (: 13:29:22 or what doy does 13:30:01 totally forgot about "SUBST: x = xxxxxb" 13:30:39 rkd: don't forget to add a new unique who casts cigotuvi's degeneration on the player 13:31:10 I'll leave that up to the pro's 13:31:22 Pulsating Lump Form <3 13:31:53 I'm gonna add monsters/loot and some other flavour stuff I guess and then just hand it over to be totally demolished and redone by devs and my name removed from the vault! 13:31:54 :) 13:32:53 rkd: your name will stay, even if that's the only bit :P 13:32:59 :) 13:33:04 rkd: you need to hide your name somewhere like the developer of ADVENTURE. design a vault with a quokka, a kobold, and a draconian inside 13:33:32 :D 13:33:46 I feel quite satisfied sofar, haven't started with the main room yet tho 13:34:05 Am I the only one who's annoying by lack of blank lines between wiki topics? 13:34:20 I am annoyed by them as well. :) 13:34:26 Make boring beetles path around monsters to player/target (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2686) by evktalo 13:34:44 do you mean the inability to add more than one blank line between paragraphs on the wiki? 13:35:55 Wensley: no the fact that sometimes, people will leave a wiki page like this: 13:36:07 ...sdfsd stuff belonging to paragraph above. 13:36:11 === New section === 13:36:18 No blank line! 13:36:33 :O 13:36:38 that is blanked up 13:36:46 my facial expression is completely blank right now 13:38:09 -!- MaryPoppins is now known as Adeon 13:38:16 I thought that was just how the wiki layout engine parsed headings 13:38:28 is the accepted reply format now to just put >>REPLY directly under >REPLY with no space? 13:38:51 it's borderline unreadable but it's everywhere 13:39:28 A rolling boulder beetle (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2687) by evktalo 13:41:55 OG17: I am always in favour of blank lines. Between replies, between sections. More for capital headings. 13:42:08 OG17: replied to your question on wall clinging btw. 13:42:47 Yeah, spaces are better. I tried >>\\ like b0rsuk just used on the terrain types page, but nah, doesn't look that good after all 13:43:16 Keskitalo: I like the rolling boulder beetle, but I don't understand why the fixation on orthogonal lines? 13:43:28 It would work just as well with lines of any slope. 13:45:48 Agreed, I just copy-pasted, not sure who wrote that originally :) 13:46:40 edited 13:47:42 should I put a "/" if my MONS: line get too long? :p 13:48:07 make multiple MONS: lines 13:48:20 or maybe it was \ even 13:48:21 rkd: yes 13:48:23 to break a line 13:48:31 rkd: paste your line here 13:48:42 MONS: electric golem, molten gargoyle, pulsating lump, chaos spawn, ball lightning 13:48:56 Keskitalo: just wanted to update the beetle, but you were faster 13:49:06 rkd: for this, multiple MONS lines are indeed better 13:49:34 very well 13:52:47 rkd: general rule is to keep lines under 80 characters long if at all possible 13:53:38 and with MONS and ITEM, it is much easier to read if you have one monster/item per line 13:54:00 -!- syllogism has quit [] 13:55:29 hm I'm wonder if I'm knowledgable enough to accomplish this feat. I got 2 rivers on 2 different parts of the map. One is lava the other is water. I would like for them to shuffle. but here's the tricky part. I have a different set of monsters I want for where the lava river is and another set of monsters for the water river. :p 13:55:31 I'm off, cheers 13:55:46 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:55:47 I think I might know how to do this :P 13:56:38 rkd: good! :) 14:03:09 also off 14:03:12 -!- dpeg_ has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:05:48 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:12:59 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:19:16 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 14:23:41 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 14:31:11 -!- casmith789 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:43:29 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 14:52:29 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 14:59:09 03kilobyte * r5128ec7f7c17 10/crawl-ref/source/cloud.cc: Remove a redundant special casing for player in holy flames. 14:59:11 03kilobyte * rd3c09381a9e0 10/crawl-ref/source/ (cloud.cc externs.h mon-act.cc): Give a better message for holies moving through holy flames. 15:00:03 -!- TGWi has left ##crawl-dev 15:13:50 -!- ogaz has joined ##crawl-dev 15:29:44 -!- felirx_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:31:38 -!- felirx has joined ##crawl-dev 15:40:38 -!- Wensley has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:42:04 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 15:43:23 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 15:44:40 -!- galehar has left ##crawl-dev 15:44:51 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 15:49:45 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:57:02 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:59:13 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 16:05:27 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 16:05:32 03raphael.langella * r9da5aed09715 10/crawl-ref/source/util/checkwhite: remove the windows stuff from checkwite 16:10:48 -!- syllogism has quit [] 16:17:50 -!- gamefreak264 has joined ##crawl-dev 16:19:48 -!- neunon has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:27:55 -!- blackpenguin has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:38:20 -!- gamefreak264 has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:43:03 -!- jlewis has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:43:56 -!- jlewis has joined ##crawl-dev 16:44:44 -!- blackpenguin has joined ##crawl-dev 16:49:02 03raphael.langella * rdb5ae1340762 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-cast.cc: remove spell noise from the advanced spell view (II screen) 16:49:02 03raphael.langella * rc66ae66ffb94 10/crawl-ref/source/player.cc: swimming actors noise when falling in water 16:49:06 03raphael.langella * r97a5ac3bfc5d 10/crawl-ref/source/beam.cc: change the mephitic cloud message 16:49:06 03raphael.langella * r39da56d7ad9d 10/crawl-ref/source/ (8 files): Sif Muna's destroy spellbook conduct 16:49:06 03raphael.langella * rc1c29b118bda 10/crawl-ref/source/terrain.cc: futur-proof the merfolk tail code 17:02:51 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:11:07 03raphael.langella * r26fd388bba0f 10/crawl-ref/docs/develop/patch_guide.txt: add mention of the checkwhite script in patch_guide.txt 17:19:00 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.10/20100914125854]] 17:33:37 -!- rkd has quit [] 17:39:04 03kilobyte * r4ef016b9b477 10/crawl-ref/source/ (initfile.cc ouch.cc package.cc package.h): Move unlinking save files to the save code itself. 17:39:09 03kilobyte * r2d20a979dd95 10/crawl-ref/source/ (package.cc package.h): Don't leak file descriptors when trying to open a save file fails. 17:39:14 03kilobyte * r3c563cf708d0 10/crawl-ref/source/package.cc: Remove an obsolete comment. 17:39:15 03kilobyte * r30be6f76d84a 10/crawl-ref/source/package.cc: Fix a memory leak on failed writes. 17:47:11 Who is Raphael Langella and why doesn't ey have a nick map? 17:49:12 galehar 17:49:27 feel free to give him a mapping 17:51:51 03kilobyte * r8d9c235db943 10/crawl-ref/git-hooks/crawl-ref-cia: Teach CIA about Galehar's name. 17:57:28 does he have a full commit bit? 17:57:35 (if so, wow I'm behind) 17:58:06 do we ever read any user-provided file other than the .crawlrc/init.txt and lua included from it? 17:58:39 sorear: there was a bunch of mails about him, he got commit rights today 18:12:37 nice 18:13:01 * Zannick doesn't do enough work on crawl :/ 18:13:39 -!- neunon has joined ##crawl-dev 18:13:39 -!- neunon has quit [Changing host] 18:13:39 -!- neunon has joined ##crawl-dev 18:18:11 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:21:19 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 18:22:36 03dolorous * r9816946d0916 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-place.cc: Add formatting fixes. 18:23:57 -!- blackpenguin has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:40:06 03dolorous * r59fab6d7b9c0 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: Properly mark lava worms as not having skeletons. 18:49:07 Gooood morning. 19:02:15 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 19:15:03 -!- TGWi has left ##crawl-dev 19:25:21 -!- blackpenguin has joined ##crawl-dev 19:29:42 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 19:45:55 Oh, galehar is still on moderation. 20:07:05 -!- valrus_ has joined ##crawl-dev 20:20:16 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 20:55:51 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:33:01 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 21:33:07 good day 21:52:51 -!- jooosa has joined ##crawl-dev 21:55:01 -!- joosa has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:55:12 -!- jooosa is now known as joosa 22:02:39 -!- jarpiain_ has joined ##crawl-dev 22:03:27 -!- jarpiain has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:03:28 -!- herself has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:03:45 -!- herself has joined ##crawl-dev 22:09:58 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 22:13:08 -!- neunon_ has joined ##crawl-dev 22:32:16 -!- upsy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:36:23 -!- enne has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:37:15 Make friendly monsters following algoritm more intelligent (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2688) by sydd 22:41:49 -!- gamefreak264 has joined ##crawl-dev 22:42:26 !seen sequell 22:42:27 I last saw Sequell at Thu Oct 7 03:07:52 2010 UTC (34m 35s ago) saying 57. [2010-10-07] [god=Beogh] 78291 the Farming Orc of Death (L27 HONe) left a Ziggurat at level 27 on turn 231334. (Zig:27) on ##crawl. 22:42:47 -!- TGWi has left ##crawl-dev 22:46:27 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 22:46:57 !seen zauren 22:46:57 I last saw Zauren at Wed Oct 6 23:40:23 2010 UTC (4h 6m 34s ago) saying like what? on ##crawl. 22:47:04 YAY 22:47:13 How do I leave messages to people? 22:47:43 Wrong channel, sorry 22:48:00 -!- enne has joined ##crawl-dev 23:00:05 -!- valrus_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:25:27 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:46:42 -!- ogaz has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:54:04 -!- ogaz has joined ##crawl-dev