00:02:19 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:28:34 -!- ixtli has quit [Quit: ixtli] 00:32:31 03dolorous * r8e9c951481a8 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-place.cc: Add spacing fix. 00:36:59 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 00:46:08 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:49:02 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 01:23:29 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:51:49 Enchanting hides marks them as {was cursed} (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2662) by MarvintheParanoidAndroid 02:25:43 -!- Galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 02:54:34 -!- gamefreak264 has joined ##crawl-dev 03:17:30 -!- monky has quit [Quit: what] 03:31:25 -!- Wensley has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.17/2009122204]] 03:46:58 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 03:47:30 -!- Hehfiel has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:48:43 -!- Hehfiel has joined ##crawl-dev 03:58:44 -!- Hehfiel has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:59:55 -!- Hehfiel has joined ##crawl-dev 04:14:18 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:18:43 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 04:18:46 mornings 04:19:15 !seen due 04:19:15 I last saw due at Thu Sep 30 01:55:43 2010 UTC (7h 23m 32s ago) saying +nsfw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYrlFXSEVTs on ##crawl. 04:19:39 !tell due Would you comment on c-r-d _if_ dolorous or I got something wrong with the holies? Thanks! 04:19:39 dpeg: OK, I'll let due know. 04:24:14 The square LOS summary expanded nicely. Thanks everyone. 04:25:24 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 04:26:32 dpeg: perhaps we could make a branch to test what would be the real effects of 1.4 movement? 04:26:57 since it may have balance effects 04:27:38 yes 04:27:51 I'd expect subtle issues to come up with 1.4. 04:28:11 Also, are you sure that hex has no Chess-king like problems? 04:28:34 they are there, just in a different form, iiuc 04:28:57 chess-king? 04:29:09 Textmode: see square LOS wiki, last section please. 04:29:27 kilobyte: the bears are good. I'll do that later (unless you want to). 04:29:54 moving to hex grid is seriously considered? 04:30:18 dpeg: which do you mean by chess king? Because there are several different things called this name. 04:30:31 Galehar: I cannot imagine it, to be honest. 04:31:13 kilobyte: ah. I mean that problem that for some points A and B, there is a unique path A-B, whereas for others, there are many paths (of shortest length, of course): 04:32:09 does 1.4 movement also comes with a speed penalty for attacking diagonally? 04:32:40 it's nowhere as bad as with square since you may have to choose between -/ and /- but not worse. In the worst case, it's a thick line instead of a parallelogram. 04:32:55 Galehar: no, why? That would be a nonsense. 04:33:07 kilobyte: yes. However, I am not convinced that the Chess king problem is actually a problem. 04:33:39 Galehar: just think: you have two corridors, one of the length 100 horizontally, one 100/sqrt(2) diagonally. There's a monster who's exactly twice as fast as you chasing you. Count the number of attacks. 04:34:17 ok 04:35:43 dpeg: and that problem isn't among the ones I listed, since it doesn't have a direct gameplay issue. 04:36:25 dpeg: I can find nothing of that ilk. 04:36:32 dpeg: however, a problem is that you can't draw a straight line in pure Chebyshev since it has no mathemathical sense. Thus, you'd need to hybrid it with Euclidean at least a bit. 04:37:28 would a hybrid system with octogonal LOS and 1.2 movement make any sense? 04:38:31 Galehar: octogonal? What metric would you propose for it? 04:39:31 euclidiean, but with 1.2 diagonals 04:39:36 or something like that 04:40:32 I'm wondering if a middle ground can be found 04:41:23 I'm not quite sure I follow you. Do you mean a LOS that forms an octagon, or do you just refer to the 8-connected grid we use? 04:42:08 I'm thinking of an octagon LOS 04:43:01 I'm not really sure. I have to think about it. 04:43:01 could you show us a table of distances? 04:43:31 I'll reread the LOS page and see if I can propose something that make any sense 04:45:06 I'm wondering if an imperfect system half way between square and round could be made, with imperfections to small to matter tactically 04:47:49 kilobyte: that's not true (the bit about straight lines). 04:48:08 There are just many (too many, you could say) straight lines in Chebyshev. 04:48:57 Ah, I see what you mean: we use Euclidean intuition in order to select one (or a few) of those straight lines. 04:49:43 btw, there was a comment by an all-runer who said that he had about three such imperfections (noticeable, I guess) in his game 04:52:16 dpeg: yeah, it's exactly that: we use Euclidean intuition in Chebyshev 04:52:37 Galehar: I drawn a table of your system, and the results are... interesting 04:53:42 sadly, they don't give us the main benefit proponents of squarelos claim, but it's at least a fun exercise 04:54:04 ok :) 04:56:53 kilobyte: the main benefit being independency of walking and shooting ranges? 04:57:21 no, Galehar's proposal gets that done 04:57:35 the ^ is the main benefit for me 04:57:51 or rather, its absence is the main drawback of the current system for me 04:58:05 so it fits 04:58:31 I don't really know what Galehar was up to :) 04:58:44 his metric has the property that the time to reach any place is proportional to the shooting distance 04:58:47 I hope it can be represented in 80x25 console screens. (Which hex cannot.) 04:59:19 it's a bit hard to show that in a non-interactive way 04:59:31 unless I'll try with drawing in different colors 04:59:44 lemme make the interactive example 05:01:41 yeah, console forces us to pick a simple solution 05:01:49 Galehar is a tiles player, of course :) 05:02:19 I am :) 05:04:05 Well I was think of an octogon LOS, but with square tile. 05:04:16 I haven't though of changing the tile shape 05:10:03 Galehar: your metric with a 1.4 ratio produces a better visual effect IMO... but let's look at both 05:11:28 dpeg: the metric is: min(|x|,|y|)*1.2 + max(|x|,|y|)-min(|x|,|y|) 05:12:06 or max(|x|,|y|) + min(|x|,|y|)*0.2 05:16:58 -!- gamefreak264 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:17:13 git clone http://angband.pl/git/layout; git checkout galehar;make 05:17:25 dpeg: or for you, just /tmp/oct on dis 05:17:34 a/z changes range, q quits 05:18:35 I'll have a look at that tonight. I'm at "someplace from where I can't git or telnet outside" ;) 05:20:16 hrm, pastebins don't do color :( 05:20:31 lemme clear the part outside LOS 05:21:08 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:22:34 1.2 version: http://sprunge.us/YYPU 05:22:46 1.4 version: http://sprunge.us/MEEh 05:23:47 oops wrong, ignore 1.2 05:24:18 correct 1.2: http://sprunge.us/WhVN 05:25:14 1.4 looks better imo 05:25:52 sure. 1.2 looks almost like square 05:26:05 but I don't even understand why they have different shape :( 05:27:58 -!- gamefreak264 has joined ##crawl-dev 05:28:07 sorry, not much time to reply now 05:28:09 will comment later 05:58:06 Metamorphosis card allows worshippers of good gods to use lichform (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2663) by MarvintheParanoidAndroid 06:02:28 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.10/20100914125854]] 06:03:14 Not familiar with this card, is it new to the .8 branch? 06:03:47 no 06:04:19 that bug's been around for a while but is such a pain to abuse no-one's done it 06:04:38 it's in the deck of battle so you wont get it from nemelex 06:04:53 drawn from changes 06:05:21 you'd have to use decks you find in the dungeon to see it 06:05:43 and then you would have to happen to have extension already memorised and castable 06:05:52 also necromut 06:06:25 never used the spell before, but I didn't think you healed in lichform? 06:06:39 Don't you have to come out of it to get you HP back? 06:07:11 nope, you heal normally 06:07:15 but can't use regen 06:08:12 anyway, seems really impractial to exploit 06:14:30 even then, it's very unlikely you have enough necro to extend it 06:14:44 but yeah, excommunication on extend seems to be a good idea 06:15:22 and if it's from a cancellable source, we may prevent or auto-cancel (duration 1-2) it if you worship a good god 06:15:41 (cards are cancellable, Xom AFAIR isn't) 06:16:11 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 06:24:43 yesterday's summons & xp/2 discussion now continues on the wiki :O 06:24:46 !seen TGW 06:24:46 I last saw TGW at Tue Mar 9 23:51:31 2010 UTC (29w 1d 11h 33m 15s ago) quitting with message Quit: Leaving.. 06:24:50 !seen TGWi 06:24:50 I last saw TGWi at Thu Sep 30 11:10:36 2010 UTC (14m 14s ago) joining the channel. 06:36:46 dpeg: on dis, you can run /tmp/perlin for an animated sample that shows quite a few things perlin is good for and few for which it isn't good 06:37:00 there's an ellipse in the middle, but it doesn't show well in this setting 06:38:05 (for others, git clone http://angband.pl/git/perlin) 06:38:50 it can make regular objects irregular pretty well, but to show the irregular ellipse I'd have to turn up the brightness 06:39:14 what I mean here are problems with using it for dungeon generation directly 06:39:46 -!- gamefreak264 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:40:29 we'd have to make the layout connected, but all of several algorithms to do that which I considered are not stable with respect to moving in the "time" dimension 06:40:40 -!- gamefreak264 has joined ##crawl-dev 06:41:21 since that removes the main advantage of using perlin, there are many faster and simpler ways to get the same 06:44:31 there are other possible uses, though. Generating a base layout using some other method, blurring it and adding low-amplitude perlin, then removing newly disconnected areas, would turn regular shapes into irregular in a nice way. 06:48:22 forget spell from book (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2664) by galehar 06:48:38 back 06:49:36 kilobyte: how do I run that? 06:49:58 kilobyte: you forgot to close mantis 1880 and 2656 (the patch has been commited) 06:50:08 Also, any principal objections to forgetting spells by sacrificing books? 06:50:15 Galehar: :) 06:50:44 I think it makes good use of duplicate books 06:50:50 Galehar: you are industriously implementing good stuff -- but do you have gameplay/design ideas on your own? 06:50:59 Galehar: I like that it allows limited forgetting right from the start. 06:51:35 I have a few ideas for the interface 06:51:46 I've put some stuff on the wiki 06:51:47 tell us! 06:51:49 ah :) 06:51:56 not sure if forgetting at the start is a good idea, it lets new players screw themselves and has no real benefits for anyone else 06:52:09 kilobyte: it has lots of benefits 06:52:21 since you won't be lower than level 6-7 the first time you would possibly want to forget a spell 06:52:33 well, destroying your starting spellbook is probably not a good idea :) 06:52:36 I think it is very hard to accidentally lose a book. 06:52:37 by that time, you'll most likely have at least one scroll 06:52:52 Like dropping your weapon over lava :) 06:52:56 and indeed, it's damn unlikely you'll find a good replacement spellbook 06:53:15 It prints a red warning that the book is going to be destroyed 06:53:21 kilobyte: the point is that it makes experimenting with the _second_ book (i.e. one you find) much more relaxing. 06:53:34 I think it's good to offer the choice. 06:53:46 If this is never used, we're free to revert later, okay? 06:54:01 hiii 06:54:01 due: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 06:54:04 !messages 06:54:04 (1/1) dpeg said (2h 34m 25s ago): Would you comment on c-r-d _if_ dolorous or I got something wrong with the holies? Thanks! 06:54:05 due: Hi! 06:54:10 yes, please 06:54:11 I don't think this is a good idea, but you're right about reverting 06:54:20 What was changed? 06:54:44 due, doy, Mu_: any strong objection to allow forgetting spells by losing the book (galehar has a patch)? 06:54:55 define "losing" 06:54:59 it's gone 06:55:06 you dropped it? 06:55:10 crumbled, tethered, ripped 06:55:20 destroy the book, sure 06:55:27 losing the book (as in dropping it somewhere in your stash), no way. 06:55:33 ah, no 06:55:55 you 'r'ead the book and if you press the slot of a spell you already know, you can 'F'orget it, while losing the book 06:56:02 Ohhh 06:56:10 You sacrifice the book to forget one of the spells fromit? 06:56:12 crumbled, tethered, ripped all suggests a physical effect, which would be hard to explain 06:56:25 The pages are erased. 06:56:28 this is the counterpart to 'M'emorising, if you 'r'ead about a spell you don't know 06:56:29 Or torn out. 06:56:30 bursting into a magical flame or disappearing in a flash might be better 06:56:47 Why not just lose the specific spell you are forgetting? 06:56:51 kilobyte: I was thinking of ripping out the page (so you forget) after which the book crumbles to dust 06:56:55 or perhaps indeed, blanked outright so you "discard" it 06:57:04 due: and keep the book? 06:57:10 yes 06:57:12 minus on espell 06:57:19 due: easier this way, and a stronger decision 06:57:29 much easier :) 06:57:44 Renaming guardian nagas to serpents was easy. :p 06:57:50 ??due 06:57:50 due[1/6]: Sigmund is his only true love. 06:57:53 ??due[6] 06:57:54 due[6/6]: Has the memory of an hellephant! 06:57:58 Precisely. 06:58:07 I agree that it means more of a sacrifice 07:00:23 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 07:00:41 okay, so no principal objection, I note 07:01:44 03dolorous * r147fa4f24959 10/crawl-ref/source/ (12 files in 2 dirs): Let Yred take kills of artificial beings. 07:02:36 Galehar: what is the current message when the book disappears? 07:03:26 Then one you put on the wiki 07:03:27 "As you tear out the page describing %s, the book crumbles to dust.", 07:03:55 Ah, I like it :) 07:07:14 dpeg: what are we worrying about holies? 07:07:30 due: oh, dolorous mentioned a few things, and I hope they're right. 07:07:37 But only you would really know. 07:08:00 Mentioned where? 07:08:03 c-r-d? Oh. 07:08:22 yes 07:08:39 You do read c-r-d? 07:08:48 Yes, yes 07:08:53 I was reading c-r-c 07:11:40 due: do you have a clue about dungeon.cc? I mean, I do know the end result, but the insides of that file not so much. 07:11:48 mostly because of it being peppered with lua 07:12:24 kilobyte: ah, the perlin bit. How do I start the tmp/perlin thing? 07:12:25 being a monstrous 9.5k lines file doesn't help either 07:12:49 dpeg: on dis, type /tmp/perlin 07:12:54 ctrl-c to quit 07:13:22 ah 07:13:26 kilobyte: I know bits and pieces of how it works. 07:13:30 I was trying more complicated things. 07:13:33 I might be able to answer specific questions, but beyond that... 07:13:38 haha i did half a ziggurat with a troll and the only good loot from it were ~50 enchanted javelins from a floor with merfolk 07:13:46 dpeg: I wanted to show you the general shape 07:13:54 ortoslon: nice, though. 07:14:02 monster loot should be considered part of the overall loot, i think 07:14:08 ortoslon: for how long? 07:14:27 dpeg: there are knobs to adjust, but generally, in no settings you get nice boundaries 07:14:36 i've penetrated my way through Zot corridors :) 07:15:11 kilobyte: the red stuff would be the trees? 07:15:38 ortoslon: you also got some scrolls and potions, right? 07:15:54 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 07:16:06 yes but i've used up much more 07:16:08 no, it can be anything... perlin by itself is just a function that gives you a map R^n -> [-1..1] 07:16:26 ah, ok 07:16:30 this example shows <0 as black and higher values as brightness 07:16:34 You need to tell me what you'd like to get. 07:17:28 using it directly, you can at most threshold it at some value, like 0 (black/non-black) or something higher (a specific color) 07:18:04 speaking of world generation, Nolithius (the guy who made ??layout) finally replied on rgrd: http://www.nolithius.com/game-development/world-generation-breakdown 07:18:12 ??layout 07:18:14 layout[1/1]: For some beautiful islands, see http://www.nolithius.com/images/dod-worldgen.png 07:18:17 the example you did link us to had seven different bands, instead of just two -- so it looked good 07:18:26 also that troll was my first win since the buggy version without minivaults http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=MsfgHEBu 07:18:35 Is that shoals? 07:18:37 ortoslon: congrats! 07:18:48 due: that is a map made by someone for his own rl :) 07:18:50 Or just generic ascii art that looks similar to ours? 07:18:57 Randmoly generated or? 07:19:13 Ahh, perlin noise. Eek. 07:19:28 kilobyte: read his page, it will be interesting to you 07:24:22 kilobyte is missing :) 07:24:38 So scroll of amnesia is in but out again? 07:25:45 due: it is a "scroll of forget one spell" now 07:25:49 not the old maprot 07:26:03 dpeg: I skimmed through it 07:26:16 Okay 07:27:00 dpeg: for the "generate a base, blue it, add low-amplitude perlin", it's best to check out an image straight from the source 07:27:05 http://www.noisemachine.com/talk1/8.html 07:27:24 this is what you get if you take a plain base arch and process it that way 07:27:55 s/blue/blur/, sorry 07:28:23 It's an archway! 07:33:36 make checkwhite script windows compatible (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2665) by galehar 07:33:55 Could one of you apply today's Galehar patches? 07:33:59 Galehar: more to come today? 07:34:10 I don't think so :) 07:34:30 Galehar: you work under windows? Poor sap. 07:35:01 It's not that bad :) 07:35:27 Galehar: Well, just like sysphilis is not that bad :P 07:35:38 *syphilis 07:35:42 That's not even right. 07:35:43 indeed! 07:35:46 /\n$/s is not the same as /$nl$nl/s 07:36:13 ? 07:36:18 * dpeg is lost. 07:36:21 the former checks if the very last character in the string is a newline, the latter checks if there are any empty lines 07:36:34 dpeg: about Galehar's patch 07:36:41 ah, cool 07:37:29 I think it only returns when there is 2 empty lines 07:37:35 I haven't checked that, sorry 07:37:54 the whitespace check was the important one to me 07:38:30 I wonder if there could be any cases we do not want to change the whitespace 07:38:54 I can't think of any 07:38:55 if not, that script could just fix the problems it found instead of merely reporting them 07:39:09 sure, good idea 07:39:22 make it reports what it has changed 07:39:44 that said, Crawl's rule of having empty lines totally empty instead of having whitespace up until the indent level is something strange to me 07:40:06 every project I've contributed to before used the latter 07:40:39 but hey, I'm not going to war dolorous on whitespace :p 07:40:41 and most editors are more friendly to the latter too 07:41:33 there is a benefit of having whitespace clean -- but there's no technical reason to choose either of these two ways 07:43:08 yeah, whitespaces are very light characters. The effect on file size is negligible ;) 07:45:30 I meant the effect on patches 07:46:08 ok 07:46:10 if whitespace is inconsistent, it's easy to accidentally changing it, making patches not apply cleanly 07:46:52 while otherwise, patches won't have such problems unless you hit the window between someone committing sloppy code and dolorous noticing that :p 07:47:13 :) 07:47:41 I noticed a lot of whitespace fixing on c-r-c, that's why I've been careful 07:48:47 under windows, with the modification I made, the script only reports files with an empty line at the end. Not sure why. 07:58:33 03dolorous * r4e17e55da614 10/crawl-ref/source/ (6 files): Simplify the previous stat preservation routines for zombies. 07:59:08 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 08:01:49 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 08:08:26 03dolorous * re295bb33a8b0 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-place.cc: After more thought, don't set zombified types to base types anymore. 08:10:35 03raphael.langella * r471b3ba541ec 10/crawl-ref/source/util/checkwhite: Make checkwhite script windows compatible. 08:10:42 03kilobyte * r1c7237e65efe 10/crawl-ref/source/util/checkwhite: Make the checkwhite script fix whatever it finds. 08:10:43 03kilobyte * ra5913c2314ee 10/crawl-ref/source/ (35 files in 9 dirs): ... and check if it works. 08:10:56 Galehar: could you check if it works for you... you can do a "git reset --hard HEAD^" to have something to test 08:11:51 I can't git pull from where I am 08:12:07 Galehar: "work"? 08:12:12 yep :) 08:12:46 Did you just applied my patch or did you made further modifications? 08:14:54 changed $nl$nl to $nl$ 08:16:05 well, it doesn't report anything with $ln$ 08:16:14 $nl$ 08:18:38 but the empty line at the end of the file is a very minor problem 08:18:51 the fact that it fixes whitespace is much more important 08:20:17 03dolorous * r2872f92a682b 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-cast.cc: Set zombified types to base types in Nergalle's Summon Spectral Orcs. 08:33:39 kilobyte: can you explain what is Minkovski's metrics? 08:33:56 I tried googling it, but I find stuff about general relativity 08:34:22 What is it about crawl that draws in the maths scaries? 08:34:26 Like kilobyte and dpeg and rob. 08:34:39 also, I'm embarrassed that I can't understand your description of my own proposal on the wiki :) 08:34:59 due: don't forget sorear :p He scares even me. 08:35:19 Galehar: it's often called "city metric" 08:35:25 kilobyte: What does he do with maths? 08:36:46 ok, I think I've found it on wikipedia: taxicab geometry :) 08:37:10 I noticed him using far more advanced maths than me 08:38:46 and my math skills are really poor if you take into account that at the university I studied at Computer Science is a part of the Mathematics department, with most professors heavily biased towards the latter 08:39:04 I had serious problems with the math parts 08:42:26 * due sleeps. 08:42:47 -!- monky has joined ##crawl-dev 09:05:32 03dolorous * r5ade85b86cfc 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/database/monspeak.txt: Fix Mantis 2660: Bad grammar for hunter ghosts reloading weapons. 09:26:28 back 09:27:58 kilobyte: could you also apply Galehar's book patch? I know that you're not keen on it, but that would allow to move on with the Ench split and Sif pages. 09:32:40 dpeg: going home right now 09:32:52 !tell kilobyte Galehar's book patch is waiting 09:32:52 kilobyte: OK, I'll let kilobyte know. 09:33:33 thank you 09:33:38 kilobyte: btw, what university was that? 09:44:17 morning, all 09:44:29 Hi! 09:44:37 Eronarn: you got my message? 09:45:00 dpeg: yes - the one i was referring to was the 'XP taken = % of peak summons you had when fighting a monster' 09:45:07 er, % based on 09:45:29 ah, okay, will copy that in the killsteals section 09:52:38 -!- bhaak has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:00:32 -!- bhaak has joined ##crawl-dev 10:01:01 bhaak: Guten Abend 10:03:55 Shopping-list: remove a manual of Stealth on D:14? (Y/n) 10:03:56 The manual of Translocations isn't on shopping list, can't delete it. 10:05:15 Eronarn: i think there's a mantis report about that, shopping lists get confused by manuals 10:07:37 ah yeah #1402 10:16:43 Galehar: still with us? 10:17:05 yep 10:17:18 Galehar: what is the new scroll called, and what is its rarity? 10:17:28 scroll of amnesia 10:17:29 (compared to existing scrolls) 10:17:43 enchante weapon I/II? 10:17:48 yep 10:17:50 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 10:18:05 thanks! 10:24:47 Galehar: there'll be a little more in the future: documentation (I'll do this) and Sif (shouldn't like losing books). But otherwise, done! :) 10:25:16 -!- ortoslon has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:25:27 yep. Also, should Sif gift scrolls of amnesia? 10:25:41 maybe it's too much, there's already selective amnesia 10:26:30 and if someone could make a better icon for the scroll it would be cool 10:27:35 is sif's forget spell ability going to stay? 10:28:12 I think so 10:28:19 why? 10:28:23 but now, it's unique 10:28:41 and it's still pricey 10:28:53 Since Sif keeps the ability, there's no need for her to gift the scrolls. 10:29:06 how is it unique, if there are scrolls? 10:29:26 well, it's the unique illimited source of forgetting 10:29:26 In fact, tha would be counterproductive. As is, Sif Munites at least have the choice between waiting for scroll and blowing piety (cost should be higher, btw). 10:29:45 also, Sif should dislike losing books 10:29:56 I don't see a reason to keep the ability at all.. it used to duplicate the spell, now it duplicates a scroll. Both's bad. 10:30:19 the problem with the spell is that it is illimited 10:30:22 there's nothing whatsoever divine about it if you can just find a scroll that does the same thing 10:30:25 the ability has a piety cost 10:30:44 you can justify okawaru in the same way, and that doesn't change the fact he's bland as hell 10:30:49 Zaba: Sif ensures that you can be very flexible about spells. 10:30:53 The scroll is not that common. 10:31:16 Yes, it is not the best of abilities, but it is ok. 10:31:28 The much more important changes are done: got rid of spell! 10:31:44 well, yes, that's great 10:31:55 When out of scrolls, Sif Munites will have to chose between the ability and destroying books. Both cost piety 10:32:14 Galehar: destroying should be only a last resort 10:32:29 So higher price 10:32:33 Zaba: I believe that going further now with Sif is not necessary. 10:32:38 Galehar: yes 10:32:42 dpeg, maybe not now 10:32:55 well, then for sif munites, destroying will be useless. They will always prefer using the ability 10:33:12 Zaba: we will address Sif at some point anyway, since the whole god could be cooler, but that's for later. And that will be a good time to rethink the ability as well. 10:33:19 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 10:33:23 Galehar: which is okay. That's why they have it. 10:33:28 ok 10:33:29 elliptic: Hi! Nice to see you here. 10:33:35 dpeg, yes.. there are bigger offenders, after all. 10:34:00 in that case, destroying book should give penance 10:34:06 Zaba: indeed. The spell disturbed me for quite some time, the remaining issues are less urgent. This Crawl game is such a huge construction site, need to prioritise :) 10:34:11 Galehar: yes 10:34:45 Galehar: all forms of destruction should do that (throw in lava, burn books -- rare, but happens if you change from S to T :) 10:35:20 fix oka first!!1 10:35:21 Who would do that ??? 10:36:34 Galehar: elliptic :) 10:36:39 dpeg: one thing that would be interesting with sif is if she gave a wizardry bonus whose strength depends on how equally-learned your schools are 10:36:50 level 2 in many schools = huge boost, level 2 in many but level 8 in one = tiny boost 10:37:02 Eronarn: yes, I think there is some idea like this (not as radical on the wiki page) 10:37:15 what can i say, i'm a radical 10:38:19 a free radical? 10:39:04 "Your Honor, years ago I recognized my kinship with all living beings, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on earth. I said then, and I say now, that while there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free" 10:39:53 Who? 10:40:40 eugene v. debbs, american politician from the early part of last century 10:40:45 The last but sounds anarchist. 10:40:57 socialist, actually 10:41:09 ran for president from a prison cell! 10:41:10 Few people have principal problems with prisons. 10:41:44 (he got 3.4% of the vote that election, too, which is a lot in the american electoral system) 10:42:08 sounds good 10:47:20 by the way, i am playing a neme game now - i still feel the god has issues (too much reliance on summoning; escape/defense/destruction decks aren't nearly as reliable as the summ ones; the symbol stuff just does not work well in games i have played him) 10:50:34 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 10:50:55 Eronarn: sure he has 10:51:09 interface and balance wise 10:52:09 need a coder/patcher who takes a liking to the Trickster 10:54:15 elliptic: are you herE? 10:57:09 * dpeg is all alone. 10:57:24 well... 10:57:29 -!- Galehar has quit [Quit: bye] 10:58:58 sniff 11:03:00 !seen TGWi 11:03:00 I last saw TGWi at Thu Sep 30 11:29:12 2010 UTC (4h 33m 48s ago) quitting with message Read error: Connection reset by peer. 11:03:03 are you here? 11:03:13 I am replying on wiki to people who are here :/ 11:07:10 destroying a book to unmemorize a spell seems kind of weird 11:07:29 it does 11:07:45 from in-universe perspective, anyway 11:08:00 I'm not in a state of mind to do gameplay analysis so quickly :P 11:08:09 Mu_: weird in which sense? 11:08:13 (not that I ever am, anyway :P) 11:08:50 Mu_: is casting a spell to unmemorise a spell more or less weird? 11:09:07 less :P 11:09:18 would the book thing be in addition to the scrolls? 11:09:20 well, a spell might do some magicks that just happens to affect the brain in such a way that makes a select spell go away from it 11:09:23 that makes sense 11:09:44 every book has a hidden scroll of amnesia in its bindings 11:09:47 so you've to destroy it to get it 11:09:53 but books.. it's not like the mind is linked to books or anything 11:09:56 Mu_: sure, botj 11:10:22 Zaba: the description says "tearing out the page", I like that picture 11:10:27 i'd go for it 11:10:33 Mu_: for what? 11:10:34 dpeg, why is another way of forgetting spells necessary? 11:10:39 adding the book thing :P 11:10:49 Mu_: will come tomorrow 11:11:05 Zaba: perhpas not necessary, but it does add flexibility and choices. MOre choices are good. 11:11:16 oh i thought of it more like you incanted the spell backwards or some other misreading of the spell and it removed it from your mind and made the book react badly 11:11:25 It also took me a while to convince devs that book burning is cool :) 11:11:26 -!- gamefreak264 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:11:27 i guess tearing it out works :P 11:11:42 i have an amazing idea after today's first win 11:11:47 tell us! 11:12:10 a timelapse video recording of the full game in tiles version 11:12:16 :) 11:12:21 10 hours condensed into 15 minutes (youtube limit) 11:12:28 slowing down at the cool moments? 11:12:32 "Here I almost died." 11:12:34 hmm 11:12:43 speed should depend on tension :P 11:12:47 yes! 11:12:56 speed up for the almost dying parts, can't let people see those :P 11:13:01 haha 11:13:07 if i'll find necessary software, yes 11:16:01 !tell elliptic Comments welcome on https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:magic:summoning:feedback#dpeg 11:16:01 dpeg: OK, I'll let elliptic know. 11:20:33 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:21:29 What do I do when I point out that [argument from realism] is not good enough and I keep getting back, optionally with "this is not an argument from realism"? 11:21:41 I start to appreciate the Nethack ivory tower. 11:22:09 hmm, i can do a longer video because i have a friend with an unlimited account 11:22:24 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 11:22:28 i can see complaints from nightstalker demonspawn about the no xp for out of los summons :P can you have nightstalker and demonic guardian at the same time? 11:24:05 how much can you speed up tiles before the resulting 30fps video doesn't make sense? 11:24:09 Mu_: hey, good point :) 11:24:13 getting xp based on damage is cool though 11:24:19 might actually be too nice :P 11:24:34 yes, perhaps 11:26:03 Are there proponents here of making ranged combat worse in melee range? 11:27:16 yes? 11:27:24 Can you explain? 11:27:36 no 11:27:39 I am aware that no penalty is non-realistic. 11:27:52 I am interested in how this (penalty) can improve gameplay. 11:28:03 it doesn't 11:28:10 thank you 11:28:22 I am wondering if I should add this to Eino's wont_do page. 11:28:36 But still, I may be missing something and I am waiting for ideas. 11:28:47 one thing they claim is melee vs ranged combat distinction. 11:30:25 syllogism: melee does generally do more damage than ranged, right? 11:30:29 What are the exceptions? 11:32:54 my crossbow halfling could kill orbs of fire with 3 silver bolts 11:33:24 silver and steel ammo both to an awful lot of damage 11:33:29 no idea, don't know too much about ranged combat. It's not entirely clear whether melee does more at high skill and appropriate weapons 11:33:40 appropriate missiles rather 11:34:09 but melee trains fighting 11:34:28 yes 11:34:42 I am never stating that damage rates are okay, they may be off in various places. 11:35:02 But I cannot see how forcing ranged combateers to switch to melee weapon is good for gameplay. 11:35:16 They will often want to do this anyway (better damage, conserve ammo). 11:35:37 Mu_: how many silver bolts did you have? 11:35:59 i went oka so i ended up with plenty 11:36:26 fuck the gifts :( 11:36:26 i think i had about 100 each of silver/steel 11:36:50 I rape Okawaru in my dreams. 11:37:05 :s 11:37:08 delete him for 0.8 11:37:37 That would be an option, if the AC change wouldn't have nerfed melee fighters so much. 11:37:54 are any of the wiki proposals for oka good? I've forgotten all of them 11:38:52 !seen OG17 11:38:52 I last saw OG17 at Thu Sep 30 05:36:08 2010 UTC (11h 2m 44s ago) saying its no decr on ##crawl. 11:39:12 you could give zin might/haste and delete oka imo :P 11:39:26 He is alternatingly making very sane comments, and then some that make me wanna run amok :) 11:40:38 <+Mu_> delete him for 0.8 11:40:40 haha! brilliant! 11:41:13 in terms of okawaru changes 11:41:28 i find it intriguing how there seem to be two distinct camps of thought 11:41:56 the "defensive war god" and the "gladiator, one-man/woman/thing/undead vs. all" camps 11:42:36 second camp's approaches remind me too much like a berserker god. Crawl already has Trog, no need for one more. 11:42:43 Pacra: my proposal is not that much gladiator-like 11:43:05 the best flavour/gameplay part of okawaru is the stricture against summoning 11:43:15 hmm, dpeg, i'll reread it now, I can't recall it 11:43:16 the _only_ you mean 11:43:26 indeed, indeed 11:43:27 I called it "volatile piety". 11:44:21 defensive war god is okay but a bit boring. TSO already has a divine shield ability. 11:44:47 Pacra: yes, agree with boring 11:44:54 conduct/drawback is a must, imo 11:44:59 "no summons" is not enough 11:45:08 my suggestion, taking into consideration how dumb okawaru is currently, is make him the cowardly god of fighting 11:45:22 i'd have to make some sort of proposal to make it interesting 11:45:26 no stairscumming/fleeing? 11:45:33 but i digress. reading yours right now! 11:45:36 my proposal has that =) 11:46:45 -!- stabwound has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 11:47:26 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 11:47:55 !tell due Need to change channel title back :) 11:47:55 dpeg: OK, I'll let due know. 11:49:27 haha, dpeg. imagine reading a scroll of summoning as an Okawaru worshipper 11:49:36 "A small abomination appears!" 11:49:53 (in red) "The small abomination is obliterated by a divine blast!" 11:50:00 Pacra: trog is a berserker god, but he has allies. fighting alone is not really a berserker thing 11:50:06 (not necessarily, anyways) 11:50:12 it is a 'lone champion' thing, though 11:50:16 (in cyan) "Okawaru says, 'There, fixed that.'" 11:51:00 Eronarn: true, I just don't like how similar they are in general 11:51:08 i.e. might effects, weapon gifting 11:51:17 those two are similar enough for me 11:52:01 I can't clearly see the niche that okawaru is supposed to fill, in terms of godhood 11:52:57 Pacra: they used to be even more similar 11:53:08 Zaba: right now, he fills the 'god for people who don't really want weird conducts/abilities' 11:53:14 which is not a bad niche 11:53:16 Eronarn, right now, he's just a pile of items 11:53:18 Zaba: in a combat-driven game like Crawl, there is space for various battle gods 11:53:30 yes, right now he's just plain too good 11:53:34 I disagree, ero. being bland is a bad niche 11:53:56 Pacra: no it's not. think potatoes. you would go crazy eating only potatoes, but sometimes, it is a comforting meal. 11:53:57 Eronarn: not just that, also too boring (your words! :) You can't make a god that copies two potions and a scroll. 11:54:03 dpeg: right 11:54:12 Eronarn: I don't eat potatoes :] 11:54:19 evil poison carbs, they. 11:54:23 he should be more tactically interesting, but then again, he doesn't have to - spam your screen with summons, require you to carry around tons of items, sacrifice everything in the dungeon, etc. 11:54:32 Also, Okawaru introduces no choices. 11:54:49 it's good if not all gods are completely, totally different from atheist gameplay 11:54:59 Casting fire storm directly on a tree produces no storm (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2666) by dolorous 11:55:04 (not saying we will lose this if we get rid of oka - sif is another example - but we should imo respect this to some degree when changing either) 11:55:18 Eronarn, there's no clear reason why the god should exist if he's so mundane 11:55:54 Eronarn: I don't think (anymore) that a god just for "I want a little boost without anything else" is a good idea. 11:56:28 stabwound has the most pressing concern with regards to changing oka 11:56:29 !learn add bad_ideas rename Okawaru to Default 11:56:30 bad ideas[2465/2465]: rename Okawaru to Default 11:56:38 "My issue with changing Okawaru is that he makes many character combos _playable_. " 11:56:50 and to an extent, he's completely right. 11:57:04 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:god:okawaru&s[]=okawaru 11:57:06 dpeg: i don't think it's a good idea, but i do think there should be some gods where it does not change strategic gameplay all that much 11:57:13 Pacra, why is that a good thing? 11:57:29 you mean, why is that a bad thing? 11:57:29 I mean, it's completely fine if some combo is not playable. Given the amount of playable ones. 11:57:40 every time i get to the temple, i basically have to rule out half of the gods just on the basis of what i want to play as 11:57:54 I don't like to think of any combo as completely unplayable 11:57:56 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:57:58 or whether i feel like interface issues today 11:58:16 Pacra: yes, stabwound has a point. But that should be resolved by boosting certain things rather than clinging to Okawaru. 11:58:18 same here, ero. 11:58:23 like, start as a transmuter? you have to give up one of your best spells early game if you want to go one of *5* gods 11:58:33 spider form :\ 11:58:35 (stalker too, now) 11:58:45 Eronarn: yes, I am aware that not all gods should dominate your game. Nemelex does, Elyvilon does not. 11:59:33 The Div god will be quite relaxed. Apart from the curses, of course =) 11:59:44 regardless of what happens to okawaru... 11:59:53 wayne should always be able to get might and haste from him >:] 11:59:58 Pacra: any comments on my proposal? 12:00:17 still reading the other comments, then I'll read cloture and drpreator, etc. 12:00:41 he, my one is on top! 12:02:27 i know, but I want to read everything first 12:05:16 -!- ortoslon has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:06:05 dpeg: okawaru is the most popular god (just) at the moment, his downside would be relevant if summons were a viable cross-school choice. Currently he does not have no downside, just a small one. 12:09:33 casmith789: right now, caster gods will be more popular, I think. Fewer fighters than before. 12:09:47 he's the Human of gods 12:09:47 03dolorous * r6350c0078da9 10/crawl-ref/source/ (monster.cc spl-summoning.cc): Display proper messages when equipping OBJ_STAVES (same as weapons). 12:10:22 I was basing it on 0.7 won games and their gods; okawaru is in the lead and then makhleb and kiku tied. Even casters like a bit of fighting. 12:10:36 casmith789: the lack of downside is but one issue of Okawaru. Copying potion/scroll effect is very boring. And the gifts, don't let me loose on the gifts... 12:10:45 casmith789: ah, good to know 12:10:54 alright, dpeg, got my feedback ready 12:11:32 two separate branches 12:11:41 first is considering okawaru is due for a big change 12:11:48 I didn't say okawaru was good, just that his downside would be more relevant if cross-school summoning was more viable. 12:12:01 -!- casmith789 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:12:24 -!- casmith789 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:12:32 casmith789: agreed 12:12:57 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:13:52 dpeg: in fact, okawaru's downside still allows a bit of summoning; elyvilon is much harsher on summoners, but as the god (I gather) is to change completely at some point, this probably isn't relevant. 12:14:02 yes 12:14:26 Elyvilon should allow using single (or a few) stronger allies, as you can heal them 12:14:45 incidentally, is it intended that firestorm almost certainly takes you into ely penance? :) it is a side effect of that mechanic 12:15:41 nobody cared enough to solve that, I don't mind it either 12:16:01 fair enough 12:16:57 -!- gamefreak264 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:17:31 dpeg: in regards to using single stronger allies with Elyvilon, that may be viable if it were possible to get strong allies without using weaker ones earlier, but in a normal game this really isn't viable. 12:18:11 casmith789: One, going TSO->Ely. Two, misc items could provide such. 12:19:28 true, but even switching between the good gods it is worth staying with the same god due to piety, and TSO is better lategame than Ely so the TSO -> Ely switch is uncommon. 12:19:41 (except very early) 12:20:38 ely could just not care about magical construct allies 12:20:58 doy: good idea 12:22:23 like golems? 12:22:57 fire vortices? 12:22:57 doy: especially that Yred now allows their kills (so constructs play more of a role) 12:37:02 03dolorous * r8814b2d85243 10/crawl-ref/source/player-equip.cc: Add warning for wielding corpse-violating weapons under Fedhas. 12:37:07 03dolorous * ra3ce7328053b 10/crawl-ref/source/player-equip.cc: Add warning for wielding unclean weapons under Zin. 12:37:07 03dolorous * r7fd338edc965 10/crawl-ref/source/player-equip.cc: Move weapon wielding warnings into their own function. 12:37:08 03dolorous * r10605f45c6ca 10/crawl-ref/source/player-equip.cc: Typo fix. 12:41:08 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 12:43:53 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:44:27 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 12:45:54 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 12:49:58 -!- stabwound has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 12:51:33 03dolorous * r83f5f1cc7b33 10/crawl-ref/source/player-equip.cc: Add warning for wielding poisoned weapons under TSO. 12:51:44 03dolorous * r80a15f5e4945 10/crawl-ref/source/player-equip.cc: Display weapon wielding warnings for OBJ_STAVES too. 12:51:44 03dolorous * rf2440bb72ac3 10/crawl-ref/source/godabil.cc: Allow Ely's Destroy Weapons ability to work on OBJ_STAVES. 12:51:49 03dolorous * r35796110736e 10/crawl-ref/source/godabil.cc: Add missing parentheses. 12:56:14 why is nemelex disappointed in me for using this deck of destruction ??:( 12:57:25 you're using it with no monsters around 12:58:05 You scummer! 12:58:12 :) 13:11:48 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:12:51 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:13:29 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 13:13:29 -!- paxed has quit [Changing host] 13:13:29 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 13:25:45 03dolorous * rd96f66e4b273 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-cast.cc: Add formatting fixes. 13:25:46 03dolorous * redf35374a443 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-cast.cc: Tweak monster Vampiric Draining messages. 13:25:47 03dolorous * r21b5051a930c 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-cast.cc: Remove a monster Drain Life message; it's spammy enough as it is. 13:28:52 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 13:30:52 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:31:43 -!- murphy_slaw has joined ##crawl-dev 13:41:40 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 13:43:13 -!- elliptic_ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:45:51 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:49:01 -!- elliptic_ is now known as elliptic 13:54:25 >>>>>>> It's not the first time I think Crawl would be better off without you, dpeg. I find some of your arguments, such as "If you don't like it, you don't have to play it. Crawl is a free game" //insulting// and incredibly lame. Just because I'm not paid to do something doesn't mean I put less effort into it - it can be the opposite. Speak for yourself. It makes me feel I'm wasting time here. If you love something, you //shouldn't do it// for money. In thi 13:54:32 + >>>>>>>"Melee should provide more damage" - and this doesn't need to be backed up ? Games like Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic make ranged combat very interesting without resorting to such oversimplification. Not to mention this is not true in Crawl if you take Conjurations into account. --- //[[user:b0rsuk]] 2010-09-30 20:27// 13:55:45 Should I reply? 13:55:50 Should I resign? 13:55:53 dpeg: First one truncated at "for money. In thi" 13:56:08 In this context, //proffesional// usually means "finishing the game in time at all costs", whereas "amateur" can mean "taking the time to do it right". Several great games could be put together from rejected Crawl ideas.\\ 13:56:39 for context, In this context, //proffesional// usually means "finishing the game in time at all costs", whereas "amateur" can mean "taking the time to do it right". Several great games could be put together from rejected Crawl ideas.\\ 13:56:43 sorry! 13:56:57 for context https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:rc#missile_type_differentiation 14:00:33 I guess most of my ideas are in the wiki. 14:00:39 Can as well pack it in. 14:01:09 if you feel like you are "done" then you should 14:01:15 I don't. 14:01:19 but one comment from one other dev is not sufficient reason 14:01:26 b0rsuk is not a dev :) 14:01:29 that was borsuk's deleted comment? 14:01:32 either way 14:01:41 Deleted? Nothing was deleted. 14:02:11 i deleted it, it was completely unproductive to the discussion 14:02:15 It is a discussion about a minor detail on some wiki page (whether ranged combat should perform worse at melee range). 14:02:18 doy: ah 14:02:27 doy: and I get the flak :) 14:02:43 that seemed like something that would be better discussed in private, if b0rsuk has problems with you 14:02:44 I guess that is the weight of responsibility. 14:02:44 i signed it d: 14:02:48 b0rsuk is an odd character 14:03:01 He has often very good ideas. 14:03:52 Hey hey, yesterday I retreated from ##crawl, today b0rsuk throws stones at ne. 14:04:08 what's your point 14:04:17 pressure building up 14:04:23 hmm 14:04:31 As I said, I start to value the NH ivory tower approach :) 14:04:37 b0rsuk's always like that though 14:04:44 and there's a reason i stay out of ##crawl 14:04:45 doy: often, not always 14:04:45 (: 14:04:50 doy: me too now! 14:05:00 well personally I think I side with you more often than not 14:05:08 I could be misremembering 14:05:20 but I think of you as stingy with adding new things to crawl 14:05:25 and I think that generally serves it well 14:05:37 valrus: in many cases, there are various valid options, and someone has to decide. (It's not even always me, but people think it is.) 14:05:57 valrus: I think I am pretty free with new ideas by others :) Differences in perception... 14:05:59 forgive me for the glib characterization but crawl needs a curmudgeon ;) 14:06:30 have to look up that word 14:06:50 I hope the definition matches how I intended it :P 14:06:52 aha 14:07:01 hmm 14:07:02 stingy old fart :) 14:07:04 nope it doesn't :P 14:07:53 Rough times... by retired (at least for the time being), Enne and Eino have no time, Darshan is busy. 14:08:48 I also believe that people overestimate the coding power we have. There are a billion ideas out there, but only a few coders. 14:10:11 I think it's ok if development is slower than it has been, as long as it doesn't stop 14:10:24 I've been surprised with how fast things have been coming down the pipes 14:10:37 yeah, this increased speed is really a quite new thing 14:10:46 since 0.3 at earliest 14:10:53 before that there were like 4 devs 14:11:32 yes 14:11:35 didn't really hit the current stride until the 0.6 release cycle 14:11:56 and do you think "the current stride" is ending? 14:12:24 well, we are losing a lot of our devs at the moment, at least temporarily 14:12:30 the game is attractive, coders come and coders go (many come back) 14:12:35 people have expectations now though 14:12:48 quick OT question: is crawl in pure C or C++? 14:12:53 c++ 14:12:56 ok 14:14:51 I have been re-familiarizing myself with c++ and one of my goals is to be able to contribute to crawl 14:15:07 by retired? 14:15:25 syllogism: for now 14:15:37 he has been extremely active 14:15:37 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 14:15:42 Evenings! 14:15:42 Keskitalo: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 14:15:46 Keskitalo: Hi! 14:16:02 I just had to log in to say rarrrrrgh, b0rsuk 14:16:05 Keskitalo: we're discussing if I should resign :) 14:16:12 characterization of b0rsuk in ##crawl: 14:16:22 dpeg: Please don't even consider :) 14:16:25 haha 14:16:35 did you see borsuk losing his shit 14:16:35 more than normal 14:16:36 They won't let me! 14:16:39 b0rsuk started trying to have a conversation with me while i was playing via _ 14:16:50 Eronarn: he often does 14:16:51 about his ideas for fire school / vehumet 14:17:14 wow 14:17:23 did he tell you he loves ball lightnings 14:17:45 I just love how he caught the comment clearly aimed at OG17 and went all personal on dpeg, good call from doy imho 14:18:02 pisses me off, that's all 14:18:34 dpeg: so... from whom is the pressure you referred to earlier coming from? it seems like most people are on your side in this, at least 14:19:19 valrus: I am commenting daily on the wiki. 14:19:48 People seem to have a harder time accepting rejections. 14:19:49 dpeg: Good work recently btw, on wiki, agenda mail 14:20:02 saw you filing implemetables too, that seems to work :) 14:20:06 thank you! 14:20:31 Keskitalo: and galehar followed the call! 14:20:41 Yes, galehar is being awesome 14:20:47 Keskitalo: how's life? Wife sound? 14:20:54 sound and round 14:20:57 <3 14:21:08 It's good, got my bachelor's degree today! 14:21:16 !coffee Keskitalo 14:21:17 * Henzell hands Keskitalo a pot of café au lait, brewed by the Serpent of Hell. 14:21:31 Congratulations! 14:21:45 congrats! 14:21:46 what in? 14:21:57 Thanks :) 14:21:59 Keskitalo: I retired from ##crawl yesterday. Too much noise, too much cognitive effort to shout at the audience. 14:22:35 ##crawl doesn't really seem like a good venue for any dev 14:22:38 valrus: Information processing science (it's practically computer science I guess) 14:22:55 valrus: yes. I think it's okay: it is the place for players. 14:23:04 yeah. 14:23:13 dpeg: Understandable, though you apparentyl did poll the channel for some questions in the wiki, that seemed effective 14:23:23 but I believe it can be too painful to be sustainable :) 14:23:26 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:23:26 Keskitalo: well, I can sneak in for the next poll. 14:23:40 dpeg: Thanks for adding to the summonings pages too 14:23:41 disguising myself as Yredelemnul :) 14:23:50 hey, that's what Linley used! 14:23:52 Keskitalo: I think I have a better picture now. 14:23:56 Keskitalo: learning from the best! 14:24:06 I would personally take Cheibriados 14:24:20 Hey what's this about by retiring? (reading the channel log) Nothing dramatic I hope? 14:24:25 no 14:24:50 He's put an awesome amount of work into the game, it's good to take a break for sure :) 14:25:00 he has done very much for Crawl over the years, effectively ignoring his PhD and I can understand he needs a break 14:25:09 He has been practically working for the game. 14:25:11 yeah 14:25:15 Which is always a good point to stop. 14:25:21 yeah :) 14:25:26 Usually, they come back. 14:25:35 * dpeg still hopes for Haran and Paul. 14:25:52 And Matthew! (zelgadis) 14:25:57 Yes. 14:26:01 And Stefan. 14:26:05 Aye. 14:26:20 So many souls trashed along the way, but we must keep going on =) 14:26:27 :] 14:26:42 Keskitalo: our children will pick up one day 14:26:49 dpeg: Haha, yeah 14:27:19 I haven't done anything in two weeks, but I read the emails every couple of days. Not doing Crawl-related thing, I've suddenly started making music again 14:27:24 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 14:27:30 Keskitalo: you play in a band? 14:27:54 Keskitalo: I don't worry about you. You'll always be around in some way, I believe :) 14:28:02 I have played, but no band at the moment; I track on the computer. Video game music remixes currently :P 14:28:05 i bet it's like tracker music 14:28:06 So back to b0rsuk: Should I reply? The proper reaction is deletion, but that will only enrage him more. 14:28:06 efb 14:28:13 syllogism: haha :) 14:28:18 efb? 14:28:27 Keskitalo: we need music and sounds for Crawl =) 14:28:30 dpeg: I think he is behaving badly. 14:28:30 edit: f, beaten 14:28:35 -!- gamefreak264 has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:28:36 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 14:28:40 dpeg: you rang? 14:29:00 TGWi: I think it was about the ranged combat, but that has gotten out of hand a bit now. 14:29:13 dpeg: Crawl already has (had) sounds, nobody has been looking after the feature (and there's no official sound pack) 14:29:16 or maybe the summonings 14:29:17 I've nothing to do with ranged combat 14:29:20 ^ 14:29:22 -!- gamefreak264 has joined ##crawl-dev 14:29:22 likely summonings yeah 14:29:39 Keskitalo: yes, I know. Would be so cool to have sounds. 14:29:58 TGWi: but I reacted by setting up my own plan on the summons page. 14:30:01 dpeg: I remember some music mail; some procedural ambient noisings would work (using tension) 14:30:05 yes 14:30:19 Keskitalo: but we also need a lot of sound effects for all kinds of things: splashes, combat, spells etc. 14:30:26 does sound work on console? 14:30:28 screams, many screams 14:30:34 TGWi: it could, yes 14:30:46 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 14:30:50 not to mention every single unique speech :D 14:30:53 to the extent that it works on tiles, that is :P 14:30:59 oh yeah and we need an imp speech synthesizer 14:31:05 valrus: oh my 14:31:45 hehe :) 14:31:56 can I voice sigmund? 14:32:12 I recommend the "Bad News" voice from mac os 14:32:14 for imps 14:32:17 playing back sounds (like animation) is a bit problematic with the way the turns are handled 14:32:29 yes 14:33:35 dpeg: But yeah, I'll be sticking around in some form - if I can do my master's degree, the thesis will be about UP 14:33:56 cool! 14:33:58 by should do his PhD about Crawl, obviously =) 14:34:11 well, he is a mathematician 14:34:20 close enough! 14:34:53 crawl has math, right?? 14:35:23 he should do his PhD on a good way to overhaul the melee combat system 14:35:36 I was going to do a melee combat system joke, too :( 14:35:44 ;) 14:35:56 is there a page somewhere discussing issues with melee combat and proposals to make it better? 14:35:58 yours probably would have been better but I had to beat you to the punch 14:36:22 I loved b0rsuk's idea about exploding fire ammunition; I have a slight revision: fire ammunition could hit adjacent monsters with slight "splash" fire damage, think fire spreading (could hit you and allies too). This could also be for Flame Tongue. 14:36:35 Not actually sure now how that was supposed to differ from fireballs. 14:36:50 sticky fireballs 14:37:10 Also, for freezing ammo: instead of damage, make them lose (movement) energy, so you have time to shoot more ammo at them while they advance. 14:37:20 Keskitalo: yes, I wanted to redo my Vehumet proposal today 14:37:26 there are good ideas out there 14:37:40 aye 14:37:50 true what said earlier about ideas vs. coding power 14:38:10 the idea crawl develops way faster than the actual crawl 14:38:13 only way is to make it easy for would-be patchers to step up 14:38:18 Keskitalo: always like this 14:38:32 dpeg: yes, that's true 14:38:36 that sounds good 14:38:46 Implementables 14:38:50 \o/ 14:39:02 should probably mention this in the various places where we call for help 14:39:26 yeah 14:43:59 -!- Galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 14:44:03 Galehar: Hi! 14:44:09 Hi 14:44:16 kids are in bed 14:44:18 wife too 14:44:22 Galehar: Thanks for all the patches (and wiki work too) lately! :) 14:44:23 back to work ! 14:44:44 my pleasure :) 14:45:01 Galehar: how many kids? 14:45:09 2 little boys 14:45:15 2.5 and 6 months 14:45:18 boy and girls here 14:45:25 2.5 years? 14:45:29 yep 14:45:35 only one girl here 14:46:38 b0rsuk is happily commenting on the wiki :) 14:47:52 what page? 14:48:21 b0rsuk comments on various pages, but he lost his mind for a moment on the ranged combat one 14:49:24 ok 14:49:35 I've got the most trivial fix 14:49:39 a 1 line patch 14:49:49 I'm not even sure it's worth a mantis 14:50:05 You should get commit rights :) 14:50:23 doy: the history of that wiki page seems borked. Can you have a look? 14:50:49 this fix the fact that when merfolk enter water, you always get the "dive into water" message instead of just "enters water" 14:50:50 dpeg: how so? 14:51:30 doy: well, I think just the comparison glasses are broken 14:51:38 or they work in a way I don't exepect them to work 14:51:58 i hate the way the comparison glasses work 14:52:03 Galehar: best to just add it to Mantis, even if that's more work than the patch :) 14:52:04 they always compare that revision to the current revision 14:52:09 which is really useless 14:52:14 yes, that is what I mean 14:52:19 dpeg: ok 14:52:30 the checkboxes work for me 14:52:36 but yeah the glasses are not great 14:53:18 TGWi: the checkboxes require you to use the button all the way at the bottom 14:53:23 which means constant scrolling up and down 14:53:33 doy: perhaps there should be one at the top 14:53:40 yes 14:53:42 true 14:53:48 but the wiki is quite comfortable 14:54:00 imagine we'd been doing all this in the SF tracker 14:54:04 * dpeg passes out 14:55:29 Yah, I'm off too, cheers 14:55:32 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:56:02 * dpeg passes in again 14:56:26 I think Keskitalo misinterpreted "passes out"? :P 14:56:32 yeah :) 14:56:51 He has to celebrate today, not hang out on irc. 14:57:01 true 14:58:05 what's he celebrating? 14:58:24 bachelor degree 14:58:30 oh, cool 14:58:32 yay 15:00:59 fix merfolk entering water message (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2667) by galehar 15:01:04 thank you 15:07:09 okay, before writing down another proof, I'll redo Vehumet 15:07:23 Seems like I gotta stay for a bit with this game. 15:08:22 what's the story on implementables and how do I find them? just look for \o/ on mantis? 15:08:31 valrus: it's a category 15:08:41 ah 15:09:13 valrus: we made it a category, but the fucntion is the same as \o/ 15:09:18 ok 15:09:21 I am not sure how much we should shell out there 15:09:37 am I right that there are only 3 atm? 15:09:39 probably good to have some smaller items as well 15:09:44 valrus: it is new :) 15:09:48 sure :) 15:09:49 but yes 15:10:14 valrus: a good point to start is looking at the interface and Xom wiki pages 15:11:14 ok 15:11:17 I should make empty Implementables that simply point there. 15:12:09 also, the new monsters wiki page please :( 15:13:01 TGWi: you've got some pet there? :) 15:13:31 dpeg: you gotta have guard llamas 15:13:38 guardian llamas? 15:13:43 dire llamas 15:13:48 and ancient llamas 15:13:51 also skunks/porcupines/anglerfish 15:14:15 antique llamas 15:14:17 Need a mountain branch for the llamas. 15:14:39 dpeg: you're in luck, the mountain branch is another pet of mine 15:14:51 llamas and alpacas: identical except that alpacas breathe 3d50 acid 15:15:17 dpeg, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guard_llama 15:16:41 -!- ixtli has joined ##crawl-dev 15:17:18 awesome, didn't know 15:17:20 -!- gamefreak264 has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:22:58 dpeg: Wrote up a pretty silly Okawaru proposal. 15:23:00 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:god:okawaru 15:23:04 it's the last one on the list. 15:23:14 is it just me or do all these xom ideas make him worse 15:23:56 have you seen the mountain page?/ 15:24:59 valrus: worse? Are you serious? :( 15:25:05 I mean, like 15:25:11 I thought a number of them are interesting -- this which I bold-faced. 15:25:13 make the game more difficult 15:25:18 not all 15:25:23 I love a lot of them for being interesting 15:25:40 but it seems like most of them just screw the player over to a greater or lesser extent 15:26:09 and he seems like already one of the weaker gods 15:26:28 several are purely cosmetic and still great 15:26:43 valrus: if you have your own ideas, just add them (or if you're itching to code, send me a mail) 15:26:51 ok 15:27:09 not all of them may be good -- I just collected Xom ideas from various SF FRs. If you like some, just collect them and ask me, okay? 15:27:24 I guess it's probably easier to come up with malicious ideas ;) 15:27:30 yes 15:28:56 the "randomly adding conducts" thing seems fun 15:29:54 valrus: remember also that more 'xom screws you over' effects = less chance of each one happening 15:29:58 also xom summoning corners :P 15:30:10 xom already screws you over as much as he is going to 15:30:16 Eronarn: good point 15:30:39 so it will just make the screwing more interesting, whereas helping out may not be as interesting 15:30:47 valrus: I would start with some harmless effects: trail of smoke, letting off smoke when hit etc. 15:31:08 I like the idea of summon corner a lot too 15:31:23 but yeah if I'm going to try to start coding I will start with something like that dpeg :) 15:32:02 xom redecorates! 15:32:15 he should change wall/floor colors randomly 15:33:25 it would be cool if the dungeon looks totally different by the time you finish a xom game 15:34:02 valrus: yes, agreed 15:34:11 Again, I'd start with colouds. 15:34:15 colours and clouds 15:34:27 yeah. 15:34:56 Walls and floor colour changing is cool, too. 15:35:08 he could change one cloud type into another 15:39:31 valrus: having a green level, and a yellow level, and a multicoloured level etc., right? 15:40:00 I was thinking just splashes of color on every level. probably some combination of the two :) 15:40:13 valrus: yes 15:40:25 it is important to have lots of possibilites (random) 15:40:27 also changes to the structure of the dungeon would be fun. I remember it was great playing an EE and having tunnels and stuff everywhere 15:40:48 valrus: vitrification and pools are already steps in that direction 15:41:00 pools? 15:41:04 of water 15:41:08 does xom make it rain? 15:41:13 I thought so. 15:41:45 "http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=make%20it%20rain" 15:57:31 -!- Galehar has quit [Quit: bedtime] 15:58:19 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:03:04 we need "xom makes it rain!" that can produce either money or literal rain 16:03:43 xom worshippers should leave a short trail of randomly colored squares 16:04:01 xom makes it rain -> small pools of shallow water appear? 16:04:57 TGWi: Trail of harmless smoke (does not affect autotravel, zero tension). 16:05:04 from https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:god:xom:new_xom_effects&s[]=xom 16:05:18 just floor, even 16:05:24 TGWi: ah, I see what you mean. An actual trail. Yes, also nice. 16:16:22 "Power from slurping" Jiyva ability (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2668) by 78291 16:23:46 hey, zipcode rocks 16:25:17 snails and slugs should leave a slime trail :> 16:26:17 MadCoyote: yes, that's an old idea 16:26:29 we first need to say what slime on the ground means 16:26:51 it means yuckiness on your awesome +4 randart boots 16:27:18 -!- blackpenguin has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:28:20 Acting a bit like shallow water (with the differences that only slugs can make and have no penalties in it) would be a nice start, imo 16:29:31 changing randarts should be (at most) the business of gods 16:30:18 just a temporary change from "steaming boots" to "slimy boots" :> 16:30:32 ah :) 16:31:39 oh and I guess for my idea goo could take time to wear off and not have too bad, if any, of a penalty on combat 16:45:14 -!- elliptic_ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:48:20 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:49:15 -!- elliptic_ is now known as elliptic 16:56:23 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:58:22 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 16:58:50 -!- syllogism has quit [] 17:06:48 -!- MakMorn has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:19:38 ??lair 17:19:38 lair[1/3]: Accessed from the main dungeon somewhere between levels 8 and 13. Eight levels deep. The lair is full of "natural" critters such as rats, snakes, and yaks. Two of the Swamp, Shoals and Snake Pit appear there, as well as Slime, and there is a relatively hard vault on Lair:8. The petting zoo of Crawl, if petting zoos had hydras. 17:21:39 03dpeg * r79a4f6386fdc 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/mini_monsters.des: Another attempt to balance rumbling_trees. 17:41:23 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:43:13 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 17:52:10 -!- TGWi has left ##crawl-dev 17:57:05 hi 17:57:05 due: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 17:57:08 !messages 17:57:09 (1/1) dpeg said (6h 9m 13s ago): Need to change channel title back :) 17:57:25 I changed it? 17:57:28 Oh 17:57:38 Anyone can change it :) 17:57:57 I can't! 17:58:12 Also, you missed the greatest excitement :) 17:58:31 Oh? 17:58:42 Do you have quick access to a log? 17:58:47 Sure. 17:58:50 How long ago? 17:59:01 four hours 17:59:06 exactly 17:59:10 with me posting something 17:59:24 ">>>>>>> It's not the first time I think" 17:59:32 right after a block of dolorous commits 17:59:41 ... 17:59:45 What the fuck? 18:00:04 actually, five hours ago 18:00:14 Did you find it? 18:00:44 The borsuk comment? 18:01:01 yeah 18:01:08 Zao was also around back then. 18:01:14 Yeah, hence "What the fuck". 18:01:17 Zao: you're pretty quiet otherwise :) 18:01:20 ignore him. :) 18:02:01 Eino came just for this, too. 18:02:25 He might have some good ideas occasionally, but that's just ridiculous. 18:02:43 oh he heas 18:02:54 I believe he was just stating his opinion :) 18:03:28 Yes, well, fuck that. :) 18:03:39 haha, i didn't even notice the topic change 18:03:46 although I really wonder where he got the idea from that I tell people to go away if they don't share my opinion 18:04:13 My response to Danei was a bit rough, but Danei reacted very reasonably. 18:04:33 I am a reasonable man 18:04:36 Hi! 18:04:38 Indeed 18:04:51 But is DaneiONE too? :) 18:05:14 This channel has tons of lurkers. Gotta be careful. 18:05:27 dpeg: I'm mostly around to crack wise jokes about bugs/FRs, and wonder idly if things are intended behaviour or bugs before posting them. 18:07:07 I think what _is_ getting on my nerves is that people demand the ever-same explanations. And I am tired of repeating them. 18:07:34 If I try to not respond in full, people tell me that I don't listen. 18:08:03 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:08:14 Okay, so perhaps xp/2 isn't the brightest of ideas. But I said a lot about. Why repeat it all the time? But the complaints pour in... 18:08:24 +about it 18:09:18 repeat xp/2 with "ranger malus at melee range", or whatever else is today' 18:09:22 s hot topic 18:09:25 dpeg: just pour all your collective experience into a four terabyte wiki page and anytime anyone requests an explanation all you need do is send them the link 18:09:47 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 18:09:50 Wensley: Eino did something like this with https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:planning:wont_do 18:10:08 which is what I was referring to before b0rsuk starting spewing forth fire 18:10:16 I like xp/2. Or at least, I don't find it a deterrent to playing summoner characters. Message spam and what I find to be disproportionate tedium do deter me, though. 18:10:31 DaneiTWO: what's your opinion on killstealing? 18:12:01 killstealing is just when the summoner gets the killing blow after the summons beat up the monster, yeah? 18:12:07 Wensley: yes. 18:12:29 Many (most?) players feel the urge to get those kills, as they hate to lose xp. 18:12:34 another thing about killstealing: quite a few times I fought some nasty unique and then had some random critter with an area attack or merely confused get the kill 18:12:38 So xp/2 enables kill-stealing in the first place. 18:12:53 which is a rare occurence, but it stands out so people notice that 18:13:03 kilobyte: this is minor and somewhat of a bug. 18:13:08 Kill stealing is basically the reverse of what happens when pikel's freed slaves kill all the other uniques on the level. 18:13:16 People will always complain about being robbed off xp. 18:13:26 yes 18:13:39 kilobyte: you've been around all the time? 18:13:45 yeah, Pikel's slaves are annoying to do that -- it's not that bad if you didn't fight hard 18:14:07 no, just walked in, after dealing with Shayne's Jiyva patch for a bit 18:14:19 kilobyte: is it good to go? 18:14:23 it also means it's a good idea to kill the slaves after they turn neutral, which is sort of silly 18:14:30 MarvinPA: yes 18:14:37 should probably do something about it 18:14:44 dpeg: no, there's an issue I mentioned on mantis 18:14:47 but it's not on the scale of summoner kill-stealing 18:14:50 kilobyte: thank you 18:15:01 b0rsuk threw the gauntlet at me 18:15:07 they could just try and head to a staircase like ely pacified monsters, but yeah it's not a big deal 18:15:11 I usually kill the slaves before I kill pikel just to keep them from doing that 18:15:12 dpeg: there's a large difference between taking on Jiyva somewhere else and Slime:6 18:15:32 kilobyte: yes, will comment 18:15:36 I don't really see a big issue with kill stealing other than any tedium it adds. 18:15:43 dpeg: if you use the latter, all loot will be off-level-eaten way before you have a chance to get to ****** 18:15:43 kilobyte: the issue is not with healing from slurp, whcih makes me happy 18:16:01 dpeg: Personally I am more put off summons by the other drawbacks of summoners than xp/2 18:16:12 which is not a problem, but the difference is 18:16:15 DaneiTWO: well, some players hate it. That's the problem. (And I give them more credit for that than for the complaints about xp/2 in general.) 18:16:29 if the summoner is right in the fray and killing enemies in melee, then killstealing isn't really an issue since the summoner is putting himself at a bit of risk. if he's just using airstrike to pick off the weak ones, then it's less desirable but still not the biggest problem 18:17:04 the only reason I didn't use the fix I was talking about yet is that you may want to do other changes to summons 18:17:21 which fix? 18:17:24 but killstealing by itself is trivial to get rid off 18:17:43 tracking who did the damage. 90% pets 10% you -> 55% xp 18:17:51 kilobyte: yes, that would be good. 18:18:02 I have a proposal at the bottom of the summons wiki -- would you have a look? 18:18:09 but if you're going to change xp/2, that may be moot 18:18:18 kilobyte: not me 18:18:26 Wensley: I agree. But if players go miles to annoy themselves, we need to take measures. 18:18:31 i think that sounds reasonable as a fix 18:18:44 keeping xp/2, getting rid of kill-stealing is good for me 18:18:52 agreed 18:19:21 For each hostile monster, track who does how much damage against it. When the monster dies, assign xp to everyone who took part. If the player is in LOS, then give him at least xp/2. This would allow players to use out-of-sight kills to clear areas, but they would not get any experience for this. It would also take care of kill-stealing (see below). 18:19:26 my proposal from the wiki 18:19:41 dpeg: it's not necessarily annoying, it's just another trade-off. I know I dropped twisted resurrection like a ton of bricks as soon as I realized they were reducing my experience :P 18:20:19 Wensley: you are more relaxed than other players. They feel they have to optimise their xp gain. This is also why draining is so bad-mouthed. 18:20:39 I don't give a fuck about xp gain. 18:20:45 oh I'm sure hate draining as much as anyone else :P 18:20:48 !tell elliptic If you think draining is too weak (HD reduction), would you please file (Mantis or wiki)? Thank you! 18:20:48 dpeg: OK, I'll let elliptic know. 18:20:56 Wensley: I don't. 18:21:13 BUT EXPERIENCE BARGH BLARGH 18:21:14 I like draining :( am I in a minority? 18:21:19 Maybe I don't care much about xp/2 (or draining) because I usually play humans so I hit level 27 really early 18:21:19 casmith789: yes 18:21:37 doy, due, kilobyte: what do you think of my summons proposal up there? It also takes more care about out of sight kills. 18:21:52 DaneiTWO: the important point about xp is not XL but skills. 18:22:03 after a certain point even getting no experience from off-screen summons probably wouldn't matter to pure summoners 18:22:10 casmith789: draining makes you lose a good percentage of xp early on, not so much later -- but by then, you'll have a better brand 18:22:21 MarvinPA: it is still better than the current system. 18:22:32 And could be easily implemented with kilobyte's system 18:22:37 so I bring it forward here 18:22:43 true 18:22:48 I like kilobyte's system and also dpeg's. 18:23:08 dpeg: it's a good idea, and people who aren't using summons to clear levels off-screen will only end up getting more xp, so maybe there'll be less grumbling 18:23:24 and kilobyte: the exp doesn't really matter that much, what matters is that you managed to kill the ogre :) 18:23:30 Wensley: not really more xp 18:23:37 it's a lower bound, I mean 18:23:39 dpeg: perhaps this: we count the damage done. Hostiles and pets _outside LOS_ give 0, pets in sight 1/2, direct damage 100%. 18:23:42 the same as now 18:23:58 why negate all xp for off-screen kills? 18:23:58 give 0 damage or xp? 18:24:20 (is there a wiki page i can read to catch up?) 18:24:23 Zannick: off-screen kills are boring... I wrote a paragraph on this on the wiki 18:24:25 Zannick: because this is the main abuse of summoners that there are so many restrictions for 18:24:26 Outside LOS is problematic. 18:24:39 this would prevent getting 0 xp for something that was in sight for the whole fight but died after leaving los for just a turn 18:24:46 We have been so careful about spells going out of LOS etc. 18:24:58 yeah, i think kilobyte's idea is reasonable 18:25:14 I'm not sure what to do about poison, though 18:25:22 kilobyte: ah, yours is a continuous system of my one, so to speak? 18:25:32 dpeg: exactly 18:25:32 i pretty much always cleared orc in sprint 3 by sending in a demon or two 18:25:38 kilobyte: count poison damage as always in sight 18:25:39 poison and sticky flame seem like they should count as direct damage 18:25:41 kilobyte: no change 18:25:56 MarvinPA: unless your pet poisoned or napalmed the monster 18:26:05 yeah 18:26:06 kilobyte: your rules state it 18:26:06 -!- MakMorn has joined ##crawl-dev 18:26:21 i think poison/sticky flame should be the same as normal damage, except always considered to be in los 18:26:31 so either full or 1/2 weight 18:26:52 and rotting from ugly things i gues 18:26:54 doy: ally poisoning out of sight would be still 0? 18:27:05 or rather 18:27:18 count it as in sight/not in sight based on the initial poisoning 18:27:38 yes, because that is the only combat interaction 18:27:52 if an ally poisons a monster and the monster runs away, all of the poison damage should be 1/2 weight 18:27:57 there are still issues, but these are minor (e.g. repoisonings) 18:28:02 even after the monster leaves los 18:28:09 yeah, shrug 18:28:17 i don't think those are big enough to worry about 18:28:20 kilobyte: do you think it is easy to set up a system like this? 18:28:51 easy in general, a bit harder for poison, but we already have something similar for it 18:29:17 ie, currently poison's "kill category" is the one most beneficial for you 18:29:52 someone poisoned by hostiles and pets counts as poisoned by pets, someone poisoned by hostiled and you as poisoned by you 18:29:55 kilobyte: re Jiyva: I suggest to have a guaranteed altar between Slime entry and level 2. Would you think that suffices? 18:30:05 kilobyte: ok 18:30:48 I wonder about players benefitting from spoilers about knowing not to enter Slime:6 prematurely 18:31:14 true 18:31:36 one solution would be no off-level eating for Slime:$ 18:31:45 it is your homeland, after all 18:32:23 dpeg: that would encourage slime stashing, though 18:32:43 no off-level eating until the chambers are open 18:33:05 no off-level eating inside the chambers while they're closed 18:33:11 ^ +1 18:33:18 yeah, that's a better solution 18:33:50 it may be a little tricky without a KPROP, but hey, it's not like we are running out of enums 18:35:27 cool 18:36:30 you decadence will bet your downfall! enums are not infinite! they must come from somewhere 18:36:51 we used 14 bits out of a 32 bit field 18:37:28 it might be tempting to reduce memory use and save file size by making that shorts 18:38:01 if it can't run on a PDP-11, it's not a roguelike 18:38:11 except that the two free bits would be used by the straightforward version of Jiyva fix and by what I have in mind for exploration tracking 18:38:35 we can run on it? 18:38:53 don't we take 659729672698 TB memory and a big fat CPU? 18:39:14 we will after I implement crawl's 3D graphics engine 18:39:37 you'll be able to see the beads of sweat on sigmunds chin 18:40:56 oh... PDP-11 had 16 bit pointers. Ouchie :p 18:42:46 Wensley: Crawl is already in 3D! It just happens to use an orthographic projection. 18:42:57 Just sayin'. 18:43:09 <-- is shown up 18:43:51 enne: and that's a problem. Out of 5 environments I have, tiles are unusable on 3. 18:43:54 enne: Can you just redo tiles using the Havok engine? 18:43:58 I'll have to invent some more dimensions to reclaim my honor 18:44:08 enne: I hear that's the popular thing these days. 18:44:13 kilobyte: Isn't that enough? 18:44:39 enne: Hi! 18:45:08 kilobyte: I still feel bad about that. :( 18:45:17 enne: machine at home, a nVidia card: ok. Machine at work, some radeon: crashes hard. Windows in virtualbox in default settings: blank tiles. Windows in vbox with "experimental" 3D accel: works. N900: GLES not GL, doesn't work. 18:45:32 N900? 18:45:50 Also, why crashing? 18:46:02 I hear someone wrote something that might make it easier to use DirectX :) 18:46:06 enne: <3 18:46:36 Nokia's cross between a smartphone and a netbook. 32GB disk, a beefy CPU, but crippling amount of RAM (only 256MB not including swap) 18:47:27 ixtli: and that would help portability how? 18:48:01 ixtli: that could possibly ease issues with a single driver or two, but at a huge cost 18:48:17 The huge cost of supporting GLES2? 18:48:23 I really with by or luca could finish up that client-server project 18:48:43 kilobyte: by took a break 18:49:20 enne: DirectX, GLES might be easy, I gave it a try and it seems it may be even a matter of an one-line fix from my patches -- but I don't know WHAT fix 18:49:33 dpeg: yeah, I know :( 18:49:57 it would be really great, that would make creating new ports trivial 18:50:02 like a SVG one 18:50:45 android crawl! 18:51:16 all browsers do SVG, save for Internet Exploder <=8 18:51:39 and plain HTML + javascript might do it well enough 18:51:46 perhaps even for IE6 18:52:23 i had pretty terrible results for rendering speed of anything not entirely trivial last time i worked with svg 18:52:33 that would require doing some compositing server side, but that's not a stopper 18:52:50 was a couple years ago, but 18:52:58 doy: does an 80x70 array of tiles count as trivial? 18:53:20 I can check if a plain table works better 18:54:57 i actually kind of want to see if i can wrangle up an android crawl client over the winter/spring 18:55:36 Eronarn: I assume not with tiles? ;) 18:56:00 enne: i don't think tiles would fit on anything smaller than a tablet 18:56:20 Eronarn: uhm, why? 18:56:28 kilobyte: why what? 18:56:33 Eronarn: our current minimal resolution is 800x480 18:56:41 Eronarn: guess what resolution n900 uses 18:57:37 I bet whoever set that limit did it with some Android machine in mind 18:57:56 since the natural one for PC would be 640x480 18:58:38 kilobyte: 800x480 is bigger than many android screens, actually 18:58:46 and even then, there's the issue of making it actually look good on a display that tiny 18:59:18 kilobyte: will you take care of Shayne's patch, or should we ask him to do something? 19:00:23 dpeg: I'm not sure if I won't crash soon... lemme push the current version, I'll try to add the fix 19:00:34 cool 19:00:38 should also sleep 19:00:43 Just one more proof! 19:01:03 Eronarn: with a stylus, tiles are probably way easier to use than console 19:01:29 although if you do vi keys, console may be good too 19:01:36 since the display is fine 19:01:54 stylus isn't stock on most (almost all?) android phones 19:02:22 (if you can't tell already, it's kind of a hassle to plan out what features an app should have) 19:02:31 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:03:10 vi-keys would be pretty miserable on a phone keyboard 19:03:13 (There's no reason Crawl couldn't run at smaller resolutions. At 480 pixels high, the textures are already squished and filtered. It probably wouldn't look so great, though.) 19:03:21 Eronarn: I'm not sure about touching it well enough 19:03:34 but I'm in general really biased against touch screens 19:04:03 doy: no worse than on a laptop, I guess. 19:04:11 um, no 19:04:17 remember, not all android phones have hard keyboards 19:04:30 vi-keys with all your fingers is fine, vi-keys with just thumbs doesn't work at all 19:04:59 Eronarn: tiles -- pointing, console -- keyboard 19:06:03 kilobyte: i think what would work best is an onscreen keypad; i saw someone do this with a RL 19:06:08 it was a semi-transparent one 19:06:40 make a draggable status/command area that reappears if you tap, or something 19:07:02 03N78291 * r20c6bc499e9e 10/crawl-ref/source/ (9 files in 2 dirs): Food, hp and mp for Jiyvaites on jelly eating 19:07:49 since you need to press it all the time, what do you use to see the game's display? 19:08:00 semi-transparency makes things damn hard to see 19:08:03 it takes up only a fraction of the screen, i mean 19:08:06 for text, at least 19:08:16 like a quarter or eighth or so 19:08:25 and drag it elsewhere if you need to see what was under it 19:08:38 or just have it toggle between the keypad and the minimap 19:08:51 I already have a problem with screen being wasted, forcing a tiny font 19:09:02 that also works... it might be better to take a versatile approach though 19:09:04 on the screenshot on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:N900_xterm.JPG 19:09:12 just because there are so many possible devices 19:09:20 the top toolbar can be removed, the lower one can't 19:09:39 I'd have to hack a X terminal without that flaw 19:11:11 popup/slideout seems like the best way to deal with it 19:11:28 one other issue though is that some phones have square displays 19:11:32 * jld has never really liked their X terminal. However... where'd I leave that image... 19:11:41 which would be... really awkward to use 19:11:45 http://www.xlerb.net/misc/phonecrawl.png 19:12:30 (There is also a phonecrawl2.) 19:12:55 But it takes a certain amount of hackery to make vanilla xterm usable on the N900. 19:13:44 jld: can it set a full-screen mode without Hildon integration? 19:14:23 kilobyte: That part is... oh, right, wmctrl run from xbindkeys 19:15:20 sadly, android trackballs are by default only capable of doing arrow keys 19:15:29 and my phone only has a soft keyboard 19:15:51 I really need to write up my N810/N900 insanity one of these days. 19:15:53 so i can ssh into CAO but i can't send any commands sensibly 19:17:15 I can, but vi keys make me scream in rage and want to suicide the character 19:17:35 !hs * name=1kb 19:17:35 5. 1KB the Chucker (L4 TrHu), blasted by an orc priest (divine providence) on D:3 on 2010-09-28, with 211 points after 1430 turns and 0:08:31. 19:17:46 that's how long my patience lasted :p 19:18:33 (a separate account since flipping configs really sucks) 19:18:56 i think there are few enough commands that button-y things would work decently 19:19:19 maybe some kind of nested menu, two levels deep? if 5 on the first level, that should be enough keys for everything 19:21:09 menus are uncomfortable to use, but key combinations would be better 19:21:29 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: sleep] 19:21:30 and you are not limited to shift-X, ctrl-X 19:21:48 even "a" "b" "c" could be made rebindable 19:22:10 well, there can be multiple input methods of course 19:22:25 but without a hard keyboard i'd have to pop up a soft keyboard every time i want to do something 19:22:51 and if i'm doing that i may as well just do it via a menu, which interrupts flow somewhat less 19:27:55 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 19:31:18 -!- murphy_slaw has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 19:44:01 -!- murphy_slaw has joined ##crawl-dev 19:46:10 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 19:46:18 sorry to disturb 19:47:16 !tell Pacra I just re-read the Glutton god proposal. No idea why I put that on the first page, it is a pitiful concept. Perhaps I liked the insanity. What would you think of brainstorming a god based on your ideas? Write me a mail if interested. 19:47:16 dpeg: OK, I'll let Pacra know. 19:47:42 !seen Pacra 19:47:42 I last saw Pacra at Fri Oct 1 00:38:55 2010 UTC (8m 47s ago) saying elliptic, what do you think of the ****** jiyva ability? on ##crawl. 19:48:03 -!- murphy_slaw has quit [Client Quit] 19:48:15 -!- dpeg is now known as Yredelemnul 20:14:06 -!- Yredelemnul has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:24:18 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:26:10 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 20:26:10 -!- paxed has quit [Changing host] 20:26:10 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 21:04:12 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:10:16 -!- upsy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:28:03 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:55:25 Glutton god isn't that the same thing as Slime? 21:58:34 no 22:06:23 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 23:05:58 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:07:56 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 23:31:39 03dolorous * r9222920c6ab2 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-place.cc: Mark Mennas as belonging to Zin, as it matches his description. 23:32:38 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:34:29 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 23:35:52 03dolorous * r7f6cff1f59f5 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-place.cc: Resort monsters' god assignments.