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02:58:50 <by> !lm Vicht crash -log
02:58:50 <Sequell> 3. Vicht, XL6 VpCK, T:8368 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/Vicht/crash-Vicht-20100903-035542.txt
03:00:31 <by> oh right, #2195
03:02:01 <due> where are we on the relicensing front?
03:04:31 <by> greensnark has plans, and greensnark is busy
03:06:10 <bhaak> before the tournament he said, he would do it after the tournament
03:06:23 <bhaak> I hope my popcorn hasn't gone stale
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04:16:12 <by> the arena just marked the area around roxanne as unsafe for travelling, right in the middle of a fight with roka
04:16:30 <kilobyte> yeah, it does that
04:16:40 <kilobyte> probably should be removed
04:17:16 <kilobyte> there's an issue with a lua marker assert with the new tomb code for Khufu, too
04:18:07 <by> if you want to fix the marker activation stuff, go ahead -- seems like greensnark has no time
04:19:06 <by> it's a bit of a mess iirc because this new activation tracking only handles global marker activation, while markers can also be activated individually
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04:33:26 <kilobyte> I'll really focus on the save crap first, though
04:33:34 <kilobyte> otherwise it won't be done this millenium
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05:27:28 <by> should fake rakshasas also just have high MR, or should real rakshasas get immunity?
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05:29:36 <kilobyte> I'd go with same MR for both
05:29:38 <by> or we could make enchantments on fake rashasa fail with "resists"
05:29:46 <kilobyte> or that
05:31:13 <by> I imagine immunity is since they're just illusions
05:31:29 <by> though then enchantments that affect the real raskhasa should probably affect the illusions, too
06:11:23 <greensnark> by: Just need to do env.markers.clear_need_activate(); after any individual markers are added for corruption/others
06:11:41 <greensnark> If someone could do that it'd be awesome, I'm not sure when I'll have Crawl time next
06:20:45 <by> and an ASSERT(!env.markers.need_activate()) before the markers are added so we don't miss unactivation accidentally?
06:21:16 <by> though I guess the marker additions are rare enough that we should catch the bugs anyway
06:22:26 <greensnark> I think all the piecemeal marker additions are during normal gameplay, so any sneaky bugs will be caught in the world_reacts check
06:23:01 <greensnark> Or we could track marker activation per marker, which would probably be better long term
06:27:42 <by> wow corruption generates crazy amounts of monsters at 27 invocations
06:28:43 <CIA-81> 03by * rd89cda1a9caa 10/crawl-ref/source/ (abyss.cc mon-cast.cc spl-goditem.cc): Fix unactivated marker asserts related to corruption and tomb markers. (greensnark)
06:29:18 <greensnark> by: Thanks
06:29:36 <by> thanks for telling me what to do :)
06:47:37 <blue_anna> anyone know how to make monsters not open secret doors in their vault? :D
06:48:01 <blue_anna> I have this nice vault with a secret section that .. is never secret by the time I get to it :P
07:01:52 <due> blue_anna: yes
07:01:57 <due> blue_anna: check lm_door in dat/clua/lm_door
07:02:37 <blue_anna> oooh :)
07:02:39 <blue_anna> due, ty
07:27:10 <Mu_> by: a square of loot in elf in my sprint map seems to be generating a wall of green crystal on top of it, making the items unreachable. was that so during the tournament?
07:27:34 <due> snorkle
07:30:42 <by> Mu_: don't remember so
07:30:54 <Mu_> i wonder what changed
07:43:01 <blue_anna> I had a crash while debugging a map .. I got rid of the map -- when I start crawl the game that crashed shows up as a saved game even though there's nothing in my saves dir
07:43:12 <blue_anna> any idea how t get rid of that?
07:43:15 <blue_anna> :D
07:43:39 <due> it must be in your saves dir
07:43:48 <blue_anna> my saves dir is empty
07:43:57 <CIA-81> 03Mu * r9b88f7b218a8 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/sprint/sprint_mu.des: Eliminate strange block of crystal in elf section of sprint_mu
07:44:05 <blue_anna> is there a global one that would override my .crawlrc ?
07:44:14 <due> no
07:44:23 <due> well, it depensd on how your install was done
07:44:51 <blue_anna> I'm just doing make wizard
07:45:06 <blue_anna> running it right from the git directory
07:45:07 <by> well, do you know the directory where your proper saves go
07:45:22 <blue_anna> let me verify that it is the one I put in the crawlrc
07:46:00 <blue_anna> its not ..
07:46:03 <blue_anna> saves_dir                       = /home/roberto/.crawl/save
07:46:07 <blue_anna> does that look right?
07:46:21 <due> hm
07:47:33 <blue_anna> aha
07:47:36 <blue_anna> it is save_dir !
07:47:42 <blue_anna> not saves
07:47:47 <due> Hah.
07:56:10 <herself> @?norbert
07:56:10 <Gretell> Norbert (07@) | Speed: 10 | HD: 10 | Health: 105 | AC/EV: 0/10 | Damage: 25 | Res: 06magic(66) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 1397.
07:56:19 <herself> oh
07:56:23 <herself> no wonder he got removed
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08:01:28 <blue_anna> uuf
08:01:30 <kilobyte> greensnark, by: is there any reason to keep the tag system for saves?
08:01:31 <blue_anna> I have w - a buggy jewellery
08:01:36 <Gretell> AdeonTwo (L8 TrRe)  (D:8)
08:01:52 <kilobyte> blue_anna: perhaps you didn't assign it a name?
08:01:58 <blue_anna> I think thats got to be from one of my first patches, where I made an artefact ring
08:02:10 <blue_anna> kilobyte, I only made the one rand art and that one does have a name
08:02:24 <blue_anna> but I might have messed up an enum mapping somewhere, in the process
08:04:01 <blue_anna> https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2323
08:04:08 <blue_anna> the ring itself works, I tested it before
08:05:45 <blue_anna> I bet making a base type RING_CHARM in the itemprop-enum before NUM_RINGS implied there is a non randart version
08:08:23 <Ashenzari> A Major crash and now Ican´t play anymore (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2449) by Lontrervax
08:14:37 <blue_anna> kilobyte, can you thnk of an easy way to make the game generate all possible non-randart rings? like in wizard mode or hopefully something quicker and dirtier than a des file :P
08:15:00 <blue_anna> just to test that my fix doesnt break something else
08:16:08 <kilobyte> there's an "all unrands" wix command
08:16:28 <kilobyte> &|
08:17:27 <due> i don't think that's what you're looking for though
08:17:29 <blue_anna> hmm, that's kinda the reverse of what I need
08:18:09 <blue_anna> is there an lua terminal? -- geez that'd be a good feature
08:19:21 <blue_anna> well its easy enough &o=1 ... &o=23
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08:27:25 <by> kilobyte: I'm not attached to it
08:27:45 <blue_anna> if I do a git format-patch and discover that a file was added that I needed to be in its own patch, is there a way to export it to its own patch?
08:31:13 <kilobyte> git format-patch merely exports the commits you have, you'd want to edit your history instead.
08:31:19 <kilobyte> is that the most recent commit?
08:31:30 <blue_anna> yes
08:31:44 <blue_anna> I added only one file but I did a "git commit -a"  :P
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08:32:22 <blue_anna> so my format patch output actually has material for different patches grouped in it
08:32:34 <kilobyte> if so, you can either use "git commit --amend", but in this particular case, it may be easier to uncommit ("git reset HEAD^" -- remember, _not_ --hard!!!) and then do it without -a
08:34:26 <blue_anna> I'm on patch #14 .. if I reset HEAD I will revert to patch #13 or all the way back to my last rebase?
08:35:35 <blue_anna> oo I get it
08:35:47 <blue_anna> HEAD is like 0000 .. but I can specifiy 0013 instead
08:35:57 <kilobyte> you want "reset HEAD^", "reset HEAD" would just unstage your uncommitted additions
08:36:18 <blue_anna> neat!
08:36:20 <blue_anna> thank you
08:36:46 <kilobyte> normal reset means "bring me to the state of the commit I named, but don't destroy my work"
08:37:36 <kilobyte> so if you want to undo the commit but not the working dir, you want "git reset HEAD^" (or some other reference)
08:38:17 <kilobyte> reset --hard means "bring me to the state of the commit I named, destroying any work, reverting everything to that clean state"
08:43:33 <Ashenzari> monsters have ability to cast emergency spells while berserk (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2450) by blue_anna
08:43:42 <by> ugh, hate people reopening bugs at me...
08:44:33 <by> is anyone likely to want to redo command repeat, or should I just trash the whole code?
08:44:48 <blue_anna> what?
08:44:55 <blue_anna> what's wrong with it?
08:45:13 <by> #1876
08:45:19 <doy> it's broken in so many ways
08:45:53 <blue_anna> by, I'll take a look at it if you can point me in the right files
08:45:54 <due> repeat command is so broken
08:46:21 <blue_anna> but I cant promise anything :P
08:46:24 <by> blue_anna: I doubt you'd be able to fix it
08:46:59 <by> certainly being pointed at the right files isn't the kind of assistance you'd need :)
08:47:49 <by> I think what's required is redoing the input model in a way that would also make it more suitable for tiles online play, but it's a huge task
08:48:01 <blue_anna> thats not me then
08:48:03 <kilobyte> by: repeat is really useful, when it works
08:48:05 <blue_anna> I cant even use tiles
08:48:31 <by> kilobyte: sure, but it's also fundamentally broken by design
08:48:42 <Keskitalo> due: Have you had time to look at the volcano_lake flame generator bug? I think I should push the unproblematic vaults.
08:48:42 <Henzell> Keskitalo: You have 3 messages. Use !messages to read them.
08:48:46 <Keskitalo> !messages
08:48:46 <Henzell> (1/3) dpeg said (1w 4h 12m 40s ago): I am running out of time. Can you (or due or Mu) take care of minmay's eye vault. It should definitely stay.
08:48:50 <due> Keskitalo: Argh, no, I haven't.
08:48:53 <Keskitalo> !messages
08:48:53 <Henzell> (1/2) dpeg said (14h 23m 55s ago): Ally wiki page keelhauled. Comments (in there) welcome, especially on the travel, there are now a number of options.
08:49:04 <kilobyte> the manual targetting brokenness removes quite a big part of the usefullness
08:49:06 <due> What was the bug again?
08:49:24 <by> so if we remove it entirely now people won't complain too much?
08:49:32 <Keskitalo> !tell dpeg Great work on the page, I'll see if I can think of a reply. Already +1 the messge condensation part. Will think of cases for that later.
08:49:32 <Henzell> Keskitalo: OK, I'll let dpeg know.
08:49:39 <blue_anna> if you remove it entirely I'll be unhappy
08:49:41 <blue_anna> :P
08:49:47 <Keskitalo> due: Hold on a sec..
08:49:47 <by> I don't care :)
08:49:47 <blue_anna> I dont mind readjusting the target
08:50:54 <kilobyte> the workaround is: type the command, choose a target, confirm it, DON'T REPEAT YET, type the command again, have the target auto-chosen, confirm it, AND NOW REPEAT
08:51:11 <due> "awkward".
08:51:32 <kilobyte> reaching really, really sucks without repeat
08:51:52 <kilobyte> autofight can do it in most cases, except when there are multiple targets
08:52:10 <doy> that's more of a problem with reaching than with repeat though
08:53:01 <blue_anna> what do I do if I think the game is giving a bitt too much xp for a creature?
08:53:15 <due> Reduce its EXP modifier.
08:53:16 <doy> monsters have an xp modifier field
08:53:22 <kilobyte> weak spells share the same problem
08:53:42 <Keskitalo> due: Here's my volcano.des : http://crawl.pastebin.com/tP6EDSse
08:53:44 <doy> kilobyte: how so?
08:53:48 <joosa> Player named "-" causes this when starting a game: tar: unrecognized option `--1000.sav'
08:53:57 <Keskitalo> due: The error when I enter volcano_lake : http://crawl.pastebin.com/JXVHuMJd
08:53:59 <doy> joosa: heh
08:54:02 <kilobyte> joosa: heh
08:54:04 <by> nice
08:54:18 <kilobyte> joosa: fortunately tar is already ripped out in my branch
08:54:23 <joosa> :)
08:54:32 <Keskitalo> due: AFAIR it seemed that place_lake_volcanoes was broken. I didn't alter it or anything, I just subvaultified the map.
08:54:46 <joosa> That was in my 0.5 installation anyway, I just remembered
08:54:50 <joosa> nvm
08:55:47 <blue_anna> hey how do I get the mosnter descriptions from descript/monsters.txt to show?
08:56:13 <kilobyte> if they match the monster's name, you don't need to do anything
08:56:46 <kilobyte> Crawl will notice the timestamp changed, and rebuild its database
08:57:18 <blue_anna> ooh --I have to _spell the name right_! how sneaky!
08:57:59 <Keskitalo> due: I should add that it fails to place the cloud generators in volcano_lake, if it wasn't obvious
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09:06:45 <CIA-81> 03doy * r73e103df7ed6 10/crawl-ref/source/it_use3.cc: don't allow blowing the horn of geryon when silenced
09:12:24 <CIA-81> 03Keskitalo * r4ae2d0f151f3 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/lair.des: Fix a typo in jungle_book, preventing the long description of moss-covered stone walls from showing.
09:12:27 <CIA-81> 03Keskitalo * r4c2823b8bb84 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/clua/lm_trig.lua: Fix a comment.
09:12:30 <CIA-81> 03Keskitalo * rf12f457ee418 10/crawl-ref/docs/develop/levels/syntax.txt: Fix typo.
09:12:31 <CIA-81> 03Keskitalo * r6b3be4123da9 10/crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: Edit a dated comment.
09:12:32 <CIA-81> 03Keskitalo * rfc04c51fdf72 10/crawl-ref/source/it_use3.cc: Merge branch 'master' of ssh://crawl-ref.git.sourceforge.net/gitroot/crawl-ref/crawl-ref
09:12:47 <Keskitalo> Eygh, a merge commit once again. :P
09:13:40 * Keskitalo goes to read the git guide for umpteenth time
09:13:46 <doy> git config branch.master.rebase true
09:13:51 <Keskitalo> Thanks :)
09:13:59 <doy> git config --global branch.autosetuprebase always
09:14:21 <Keskitalo> Even more thanks
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09:21:07 <Keskitalo> sprint_mu.des:1304: unknown monster: "the serpent of hell"
09:21:36 <Keskitalo> oh wait, never mid, I need to recompile >_<
09:26:10 <CIA-81> 03roberto.tomas.cuentas * r1fc0b71c6955 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-cast.cc: fixed (stopped) monsters having emergency casting while berserk
09:28:11 <doy> blue_anna: in the future, make sure your patches follow crawl coding standards
09:28:24 <doy> no tabs, 80-char-width lines, no trailing whitespace
09:28:36 <blue_anna> no tabs? :(
09:28:48 <doy> nope
09:29:21 <blue_anna> ok ..uggh .. guess I need to write a tab-removing script to run against my fork
09:29:21 <bhaak> omg
09:30:14 <bhaak> no trailing whitespace? trailing in front of what?
09:30:45 <doy> no whitespace at the end of the line
09:31:32 <bhaak> upps. I confused "trailing" with something else
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09:45:31 <CIA-81> 03Keskitalo * r8165470dffa7 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/portals/volcano.des: Make volcano_grotto and volcano_tomb utilize subvaults. No new maps in this commit. volcano_lake subvaultification pending a bugfix.
09:45:34 <CIA-81> 03Keskitalo * r634f4f74030a 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/portals/volcano.des: Four new volcano_grotto subvaults.
09:45:35 <CIA-81> 03Keskitalo * rc2102b4bbcd1 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/portals/volcano.des: One new volcano_tomb subvault.
09:45:40 <CIA-81> 03Keskitalo * r77342cd1b1ec 10/crawl-ref/source/ (4 files in 3 dirs): Three new volcano_grotto subvaults, with modified statue monsters. Tiles included.
09:54:43 <CIA-81> 03kilobyte * r0c6c511b4597 10/crawl-ref/source/ (18 files in 5 dirs): Whitespace nazis to the rescue!
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10:05:38 <Mu_> due are you around
10:06:27 <by> kilobyte: I've added command repeat removal to the 0.8 planning page, in case you want to comment
10:06:42 <Mu_> does anyone know if there's a veto thing you can mark doors with in vaults to prevent J's from eating them
10:08:02 <doy> there is
10:08:06 <doy> i don't know what it is though
10:10:20 <joosa> Is this description of skill/experience/piety still the case? http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/dungeon-sprint-fast-and-furious
10:11:48 <by> it's just 9x experience I think
10:12:14 <joosa> So, 9x everything
10:12:22 <by> the 27x is just training rate, so it's easier to empty the xp pool
10:12:28 <joosa> Ah, right
10:12:38 <by> that may have always been the case
10:13:16 <joosa> I didn't find any other documentation about it :)
10:17:29 <joosa> I'd love to see a proper random dungeon generator for sprint
10:19:01 <joosa> Perhaps with certain parameters, like just a run for the orb, or with runes
10:19:48 <joosa> I should get coding
10:20:01 <by> yes :)
10:20:17 <by> it should be possible to do it from lua
10:21:41 <by> you could have a meta generator that does a subvault layout, and then small layouts for the branches
10:21:51 <joosa> yeah
10:28:14 <greensnark> Mu_: There are actually two ways, you can set a door_restrict property on a marker on the door
10:28:26 <greensnark> Or you can use a feature marker with "permarock_wall" as the feature
10:28:39 <greensnark> door_restrict is the more modern approach, the other one should be tossed
10:30:36 <Mu_> it's currently
10:30:37 <greensnark> due: < TGWi> FR: shops that buy antique liches
10:30:44 <Mu_> MARKER: ~ = lua:props_marker({ door_description_prefix="magically reinforced ", \
10:30:44 <Mu_> veto_shatter="veto", veto_disintegrate="veto", veto_fragmentation="veto" })
10:30:51 <Mu_> what do i add ?
10:30:55 <greensnark> door_restrict="veto"
10:31:16 <Mu_> oki
10:31:17 <greensnark> Don't know why it's called door_restrict when everything else is veto_foo :P
10:31:28 <joosa> A new sprint map in the making?
10:31:50 <Mu_> same one
10:31:53 <joosa> ah
10:32:36 <greensnark> So, I've been wondering, if A are the moral equivalent of 1, what is the holy equivalent of &
10:32:57 <greensnark> I think you should make one up and add some to the Sprint map :P
10:34:17 <greensnark> FR: slave dealer shops where you can buy monsters as permanent pets :P
10:34:36 <greensnark> "war dog in near mint condition, hardly used"
10:34:40 <by> yes!
10:34:48 <by> also slave acquirement
10:34:53 <greensnark> Hehe
10:36:05 <Mu_> they'd be ^ or + :P
10:36:13 <Zannick> The pope gestures wildly!
10:36:20 <blue_anna> I added war dogs as a common type in dwarf hall
10:36:24 <blue_anna> :P
10:36:48 <Eronarn> greensnark: mercenary guild!
10:37:27 <greensnark> Someone on ##crawl suggested that you be able to buy antique liches in shops
10:37:35 <Zannick> :D
10:39:19 <by> adventurer dating shops -- find your partner for collecting the barancled rune and watching the sun set in the shoals
10:40:07 <greensnark> We should do a Plants vs Zombies spoof using Crawl as the engine
10:40:39 <Eronarn> World of Crawl
10:41:04 <greensnark> A physics puzzle where you must stack hydras to reach your goal
10:41:21 <Zannick> by: but what happens when you break up in vaults?
10:41:22 <Eronarn> Portal in Crawl would be fun
10:46:44 <CIA-81> 03Mu * ra858cb9fdf27 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/sprint/sprint_mu.des: Prevent Tiamat the inevitable acid blob from eating a door in sprint_mu
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10:50:23 <doy> aww
10:51:13 <Zannick> the inevitable would be a great title
10:51:42 <greensnark> Mu_: You should give Tiamat some stuff to eat while she waits
10:52:01 <greensnark> Build up her hp
10:52:07 <joosa> haha
10:52:56 <Mu_> i'm sure her gda is delicious :P
10:53:33 <Mu_> that reminds me, did the unique tournament conclude? are the results somewhere?
10:53:38 <blue_anna> I'd like to put a bounty on the first reported win on the dwarf hall beta -- https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:dwarf_hall_of_fallen_heroes
10:54:42 <elliptic> mu_: it seems to be running on termcast right now
10:55:32 <Mu_> o still goin :P
10:55:57 <Mu_> o cool it has the extra uniques too
10:56:15 <Mu_> iron giant and mennas both beatin tiamat, nice :P
10:57:13 <doy> looks like this is a new tournament
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10:59:30 <blue_anna> -- like, if anyone's free to help play-test? except for some xp and difficulty tuning, maybe it also appears too early, it's about at last-beta/pre RC stage now
11:01:53 <joosa> Elf also appears "too early" :)
11:02:09 <Zannick> if it's replacing elf, i wouldn't worry about how early it appears
11:02:18 <joosa> exactly
11:03:42 <blue_anna> well, I havent done the part to swap it with elf yet
11:03:56 <blue_anna> so it appears somewhere between D;3 and D;7 :P
11:04:21 <blue_anna> while beta testing it its nice to have it always appear no matter what
11:04:58 <blue_anna> Im just letting you know, if you find it before like D: you might want to level up a bit before you enter
11:05:00 <blue_anna> :D
11:05:06 <blue_anna> **before D:6
11:06:30 <doy> elf has a target xl of ~18-20, so if you're planning on replacing elf, that's probably what you should shoot for
11:08:34 <blue_anna> doy I'm not doing that. I'm thinking it is probably fitting right after orc mines .. which makes placing there replacing elf make sense
11:08:59 <elliptic> you know elf isn't for right after orc, right?
11:09:11 <Anym> Then what would happen to Elf?
11:09:26 <blue_anna> hell, I've survived at least until the second depth level of the branch entering at xl 6 .. I got to xl 8 after like 4 kills but it happened :D
11:09:33 <blue_anna> elf would be replaced
11:09:35 <eith> it would replace elf, like the snake,swmap,shoals thing
11:09:45 <blue_anna> elf would be out, you'd get dwarf earlier in the line
11:09:51 <elliptic> if it is replacing elf then it needs to be the same difficulty level as elf
11:09:57 <joosa> I often do Elf levels 1-6 at quite a bit lowerlevel that I do 7
11:10:03 <elliptic> and it sounds like it is too easy
11:10:15 <blue_anna> 1-6 is definitely a lot .. LOT easier than 7
11:10:21 <joosa> Depenmding of course if I encounter any annihilators at a shallower depth
11:10:23 <blue_anna> even 7, only the last part is really impossible
11:11:13 <blue_anna> elliptic, why does it need to replace it not only in terms of location but also in terms of target xl ?
11:11:46 <elliptic> uh, because otherwise different games have locations of far different difficulties?
11:11:55 <Anym> Because otherwise it can greatly effect the difficulty of the overall game.
11:11:57 <elliptic> note that swamp and snake and shoals try to be comparable
11:12:11 <blue_anna> slime isnt
11:12:17 <elliptic> slime doesn't swap for them
11:12:24 <elliptic> you always get slime
11:12:29 <elliptic> you get 2 of 3 of the others
11:12:50 <blue_anna> well okay but like.. the bulk of elf is a _lot_ easier than its target xl , apparently
11:12:57 <elliptic> not really
11:13:13 <blue_anna> dwarf is probably only a bit easier than elf until depth 5
11:13:45 <elliptic> elf before L13 or so will simply kill you
11:13:48 <Mu_> deep elf knights are hardcore imo
11:14:00 <elliptic> and even if you are higher level, you might well get abyssed
11:14:09 <blue_anna> it would make sense to talk aobut target xl aftert some people besides me have played it .. how do I know that the xl level that I work it at is equivalent or not? a sample of 1 is not a useful measure
11:14:32 <elliptic> sure
11:14:37 <blue_anna> annihilators are hard core
11:14:53 <blue_anna> knights are actually not even as much of a step up as the orc knights are from the orcs .. imho :)
11:14:54 <elliptic> but you should at least use elf as a guide for how much xp the branch should have
11:15:07 <elliptic> deep elf knights are one of the top ranged killers
11:15:21 <blue_anna> okay
11:15:33 <elliptic> !lg * t br=elf s=xl
11:15:34 <Sequell> 91 games for * (t br=elf): 11x 15, 11x 16, 11x 17, 10x 14, 8x 13, 8x 18, 6x 12, 5x 11, 4x 21, 4x 20, 4x 19, 3x 23, 2x 25, 1x 24, 1x 27, 1x 10, 1x 22
11:15:38 <blue_anna> elliptic, okay, thats a good guide I guess
11:15:58 <syllogism> elf is too easy
11:15:58 <blue_anna> 13-18
11:16:05 <syllogism> oh wait that's just tournament :P
11:16:07 <elliptic> those are the deaths
11:16:31 <elliptic> !lg * t br.end=elf s=xl
11:16:31 <Sequell> Unknown selector: br.end
11:16:37 <elliptic> !lm * t br.end=elf s=xl
11:16:39 <Sequell> 367 milestones for * (t br.end=elf): 48x 22, 44x 21, 37x 23, 36x 20, 35x 19, 32x 18, 30x 24, 29x 27, 21x 17, 20x 25, 15x 26, 10x 16, 6x 15, 4x 14
11:16:40 <joosa> Now that elf has a steep cliff in toughness when you reach the bottom, maybe the dwarf branch could be more "spread out"?
11:17:00 <syllogism> 91 sounded plausible since I've never died in elf, though I always do it very late
11:17:05 <doy> blue_anna: at the very least, you should run whatever script that is that greensnark wrote
11:17:14 <elliptic> syllogism: I just don't go into elf at all :P
11:17:17 <doy> and make sure the xl for the monsters generated in elf and dwarf are reasonably equal
11:17:29 <blue_anna> doy, what script . sure. I'd like some analysis tools if there are any :P
11:17:37 <doy> xp rather
11:17:43 <doy> and i'm not sure where it is
11:17:43 <syllogism> elliptic: I dont play to win so I do every branch almost every game :P
11:17:53 <elliptic> I just find elf really boring
11:17:55 <elliptic> eeeeeeeeeee
11:18:02 <syllogism> but it has loot...
11:18:13 <joosa> Loot is never boring
11:18:17 <Zannick> i do elf mostly in allruners
11:18:31 <blue_anna> can't I just test the xp values in debug mode?
11:18:40 <blue_anna> let me see
11:18:53 <syllogism> you can do &" or something every level
11:19:03 <syllogism> there may be some script that does it for you
11:19:41 <doy> yes, there is a script
11:19:49 <doy> and the script does it over multiple iterations
11:20:01 <doy> so you get a more accurate number
11:20:10 <elliptic> also, incidentally, won't monster generation be affected a lot by the depth of the branch, so testing dwarf with an entrance on d:5 or wherever and then moving to entrance in orc might mess things up?
11:20:10 <blue_anna> well you might want to take a look. its a pretty cool branch even if it needs to be toughened up some, and I could really use opinions from people who've actually played it
11:20:30 <blue_anna> elliptic, I wrote custom monster placement routines in mon-pick.cc for my branch
11:20:57 <blue_anna> which, you kinda have to do, unless you want the same mosnters as dungeon :P
11:21:28 <blue_anna> yea so no I did it like elf or orc and hard set the base level as branch:1 instead of using absdepth
11:22:05 <elliptic> don't elf and orc use absdepth?
11:22:16 <blue_anna> mm, no
11:22:29 <elliptic> I'm not familiar with the code but that's what my experience suggests
11:23:14 <blue_anna> int mlev = absdungeon_depth(BRANCH_ORCISH_MINES, 1);
11:23:46 <blue_anna> maybe I am misremembering but I thought that says .. give me the depth as if the D: level with orc_enter feature is D:1
11:25:32 <blue_anna> geez if Im wrong taht would explain the monster distribution I get :P
11:27:03 <blue_anna> because sometimes I get monsters from a lower depth .. happens more infrequently .. the behavior is like the there is a normal distribution of monsters around the level in the level function, with a global population based on the rarity function
11:27:07 <blue_anna> or it seems that way
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11:32:38 <blue_anna> its funny because I just tuned down the xp for the dwarves .. it was worrying me they were leveling me up too fast :P
11:34:51 <doy> the xp should be relative to their actual difficulty, not to how fast you level up from them
11:34:54 <doy> (:
11:35:24 <doy> (although leveling up quickly (instead of dying) can be a sign that they're too easy for the amount of xp)
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11:43:56 <blue_anna> in one run of that test, I got 10k xp average per level on elf for the first 6 levels, versus 5151xp per level for the first 4 levels of dwarf. 38k on the last elf, and 10k on the last dwarf
11:44:09 <blue_anna> so its about half as hard :P
11:44:48 <blue_anna> thats after removing the xp lowering I did to the dwarves
11:44:56 <elliptic> you mean half as much xp
11:45:09 <blue_anna> yesm, I do
11:46:10 <blue_anna> the last level of elf is 1/3 of all the exp for all of elf :D
11:46:34 <blue_anna> 4/9ths-ish
11:47:38 <blue_anna> I guess, if I drop a giant in at the end (about 3k xp) .. it wouldn't be such an OOD travesty :P
11:48:58 <blue_anna> Id need to add one to every level in order to approach the xp difference through that mechanic
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11:49:16 <doy> keep in mind that you're making dwarf shorter, so the levels will need to have more xp individually than elf levels do
11:49:51 <blue_anna> doy its not going to happen, I'd have to more than double the difficulty
11:50:06 <blue_anna> all the monsters are basically out.. they're all too easy
11:51:12 <doy> blue_anna: make them harder then
11:53:32 <blue_anna> !lg * DD s=char / o=N
11:53:32 <Sequell> 8889 games for * (DD): 2692x DDNe, 2091x DDBe, 1142x DDCK, 617x DDAr, 607x DDHe, 345x DDDK, 232x DDPa, 184x DDEE, 74x DDFi, 70x DDWn, 70x DDCr, 69x DDHu, 63x DDAM, 51x DDSt, 50x DDFE, 49x DDSu, 48x DDPr, 45x DDWz, 42x DDGl, 42x DDTm, 40x DDWr, 36x DDCj, 36x DDAE, 35x DDMo, 34x DDTh, 34x DDRe, 30x DDEn, 26x DDAs, 18x DDVM, 17x DDIE
11:53:45 <blue_anna> I could implement DDCKs
11:53:49 <blue_anna> that would bring in demons
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11:54:36 <doy> you could implement things that aren't tied directly to a player character class
11:54:39 <doy> (:
11:54:50 <blue_anna> heh
11:54:55 <doy> or add things other than dwarves
11:55:02 <blue_anna> there are
11:55:07 <blue_anna> there's 5 different types of witches
11:55:15 <doy> ah, right
11:55:17 <blue_anna> and there's nisse, and monsters taht were aready in
11:55:34 <doy> yeah, i'd say to start by just making your monsters harder
11:55:41 <doy> look at the stats for the elves
11:56:00 <doy> and then make the dwarves harder than that
11:56:18 <doy> since no regen makes them a decent amount easier, and there are fewer levels of them
11:56:33 <blue_anna> right now they are all about equal to deep elf fighters
11:56:38 <blue_anna> better than those
11:56:45 <blue_anna> but not a lot better
11:57:21 <doy> yes, you're going to want some dwarf types at the level of annihilators/blademasters/etc
11:57:59 <doy> deep elf fighter-level is fine for the easy side of things, it just has to get harder from there
11:58:02 <doy> (:
11:59:06 <blue_anna> what if ..
11:59:11 <blue_anna> what if I target it to replace hive instead?
11:59:23 <blue_anna> then it's a lot closer to spot-on
11:59:27 <doy> hmmm
11:59:35 <doy> that's a possibility
11:59:55 <doy> and it fits with the nisse, since the main point of hive is the food
12:00:11 <doy> how does the xp compare?
12:00:47 <doy> heh, hive has ~6500xp total
12:00:54 <doy> so no, that's not really going to work well
12:01:07 <blue_anna> oo yea its a lot more than hive
12:01:37 <blue_anna> funny that this is right betwee hive and elf
12:01:51 <blue_anna> because nothing else is :P
12:02:06 <blue_anna> I guess thats not true
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12:29:20 <by> !lm Warak crash
12:29:20 <Sequell> 1. [2010-07-25] Warak the Covered (L5 MDPa) ASSERT(index < SIZE) in 'fixedvector.h' at line 65 failed on turn 3735. (D:3)
12:29:33 <by> !lm * crash cv=0.7 s=noun
12:29:34 <Sequell> 24 milestones for * (crash cv=0.7): 4x ASSERT(vector.size() < max size) in 'store.cc' at line 1773 failed., 4x ?, 4x ASSERT(index < SIZE) in 'fixedvector.h' at line 65 failed., 3x ASSERT(map bounds(pos)) in 'spells3.cc' at line 1925 failed., 3x ASSERT(!(flags & SPFLAG TARGETING MASK) || in bounds(pbolt.target)) in 'mon-cast.cc' at line 1735 fa, 3x ASSERT(!(mon->flags & MF GOD GIFT)) in 'religion.c...
12:29:45 <by> !lm * crash cv=0.7 noun=~travel
12:29:45 <Sequell> 1. [2010-08-28] henryci the Reanimator (L16 SEAs) ASSERT(branch != NUM BRANCHES && depth != -1) in 'travel.cc' at line 2933 failed on turn 45773. (D:13)
12:29:54 <by> !lm * crash cv=0.7 noun=~3761
12:29:54 <Sequell> No milestones for * (crash cv=0.7 noun=~3761).
12:30:02 <henryci> ?
12:30:14 <henryci> THAT'S what happened.
12:30:48 <henryci> I was playing and got booted suddenly and started a few spaces back.  Didn't realize that was a crash.
12:31:09 <Napkin> greensnark?
12:31:30 <Napkin> CDO is running low on /var - could you have a look at the 12gb of core files? thank you!
12:31:54 <doy> hehe
12:31:58 <doy> lots of crashes lately
12:32:08 <by> Napkin: there was a bad memory leak that's been fixed
12:32:19 <by> but not sure if someone updated -- I don't have the proper ssh key handy
12:32:21 <greensnark> Napkin: Please delete them, no time to look at them anytime soon
12:32:28 <greensnark> Most of them are probably the marker crash anyway
12:32:49 <by> and the large ones the oom crashes
12:33:11 <Napkin> roger, thanks :)
12:33:34 <Napkin> then I can spare the morgues for another day :D
12:35:25 <by> Napkin: do you happen to know if there are windows builds of current 0.7?
12:38:19 <greensnark> "Someone should do another 0.7 release" :)
12:38:24 <Napkin> current 0.7?
12:38:26 <greensnark> There were a lot of bugs fixed since 0.7.1
12:38:31 <Napkin> oh.. I see
12:38:37 <Napkin> let me check..
12:38:52 <Napkin> the files in trunk folder have grown to 1.2gb already, btw
12:39:21 <Napkin> yes, by
12:39:26 <Napkin> crawl_tiles-0.7.1-1-g7ce9b19.zip
12:39:37 <Napkin> crawl_setup-0.7.1-1-g7ce9b19.exe
12:39:46 <Ashenzari> stats and ranged combat (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2451) by Lemuel
12:39:46 <Napkin> crawl-0.7.1-1-g7ce9b19.zip
12:39:56 <Napkin> osx builds are not available in 0.7.1
12:40:18 <Napkin> all those files in the /trunk/ folder - if you'd like to link to them of upload them somewhere
12:40:23 <Napkin> Pizza! \o/
12:40:28 <Napkin> bbl :)
12:40:54 <by> those are plain 0.7.1
12:40:57 <by> have fun with pizza
12:42:04 <Napkin> those are the latest, by
12:42:18 <greensnark> I can run an OS X build if there's going to be a 0.7.2
12:43:00 <doy> greensnark: you should make sure to include the generated files this time(:
12:43:04 <Napkin> I should be able to do 0.7.x builds quite easily
12:43:14 <greensnark> doy: Something was missing? :P
12:43:42 <doy> greensnark: https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2413
12:44:29 <greensnark> Ah
12:44:45 <greensnark> Well!
12:44:56 <greensnark> It's only the Mac build, not very urgent :P
12:45:01 <doy> (:
12:50:40 <CIA-81> 03by 07stone_soup-0.7 * r9ed8522fd96b 10/crawl-ref/source/player.cc: Fix stat boosting armour not losing bonus when melding.
12:50:42 <CIA-81> 03by 07stone_soup-0.7 * rb03ddb39213a 10/crawl-ref/docs/changelog.txt: Update changelog for 0.7.2.
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12:53:29 <by> I guess I'd manage to do the tagging -- will someone else here be able to run the builds, etc.?
12:54:26 <Keskitalo> blue_anna: There's a plan for Hive to make it not a branch anymore, so targeting to replace is not a good aim. :)
12:54:39 <doy> well
12:54:44 <doy> once we do turn hive into a portal vault
12:54:56 <doy> can have a nisse alternative for it
12:54:58 <doy> (:
12:55:26 <by> is nisse the nisse that's in hornisse (= german for hornet)?
12:55:53 <doy> nisse are things that carry potions of porridge for some reason
12:55:56 <doy> that's all i know
12:55:57 <doy> (:
12:56:04 <Keskitalo> heh :)
12:56:14 <Keskitalo> blue_anna: Replacing Orc is another viable possibility, if you want to make an easier branch. You would need to make the loot gold.
12:56:16 <blue_anna> they carry them at a low rate
12:57:05 <blue_anna> if I replace orc I replace both orc and elf
12:58:00 <Keskitalo> Separate "Dwarven Mines" and "Dwarven Halls" would work for me. :)
12:58:09 <greensnark> by: Hold off on tagging until the Mac build is fixed
12:58:25 <greensnark> I'll check the Mac build Sunday or Monday
12:58:27 <Keskitalo> But mixing and matching with Orc and Elf should be done for variet.
12:58:32 <Keskitalo> variety.
12:58:40 <blue_anna> Keskitalo, that's definitely doable .. theres already an idea ot add a tomb portal in dwarf hall.. no reason it cant be the deeper branch
12:58:43 <doy> i don't see why you couldn't replace only orc
12:58:52 <doy> i don't think we need two dwarf branches
12:59:11 <by> greensnark: ok
12:59:33 <Keskitalo> I should mention Elf stands to be shortened to 5 levels.. no need to worry about that
12:59:54 <doy> Keskitalo: ah, that would be reasonable too
13:00:13 <by> I just tried to follow release.txt experimentally and got stuck: I'm supposed to call "git tag -a release-0.7.2", but I'm not told what to write into the tag.
13:00:24 <doy> by: whatever you want!
13:00:36 <doy> i think you can view other examples with git tag -l release-0.7.1
13:00:41 <doy> if i remember correctly
13:00:44 <doy> it doesn't really matter though
13:01:02 <by> nope, doesn't seem to work
13:01:28 <by> then I write "rajgklrae" and it'll show up in-game most likely
13:02:35 <doy> 'git show 0.7.1' should work
13:02:40 <greensnark> I think I usually put in something frivolous
13:02:49 <greensnark> But then I usually do
13:03:04 <doy> and the tag name should be 0.7.2, not release-0.7.2
13:03:15 <Keskitalo> blue_anna: I get "Patch format detection failed" when trying to apply the ring of charms patch.. let's see..
13:03:24 <by> so release.txt is wrong?
13:03:32 <greensnark> by: Yes
13:03:36 <by> argh
13:03:37 <doy> by: i think that changed at some point
13:03:43 <doy> it used to be release-whatever
13:03:49 <greensnark> I think jpeg wrote release.txt and it hasn't been updated in a while
13:03:54 <doy> but nobody maintains documentation
13:03:55 <doy> so
13:03:56 <doy> (:
13:04:14 <Keskitalo> I did update it in spring maybe, but yeah, nobody maintains documentation. :/
13:04:16 <greensnark> I just followed the illustrious example of my predecessor :P
13:14:20 <Keskitalo> blue_anna: The first patch in the big tar was garbled here, can you check if it's ok? I got it separately now and it worked.
13:14:44 <blue_anna> Keskitalo, sure
13:14:46 <blue_anna> thanks
13:14:58 <Keskitalo> blue_anna: I ran out of time, but I'll look at the branch later. :)
13:27:30 <blackpenguin> uniques_tourney stats now in color and 3D! wait... in color only.
13:27:57 <Zannick> fr: 3d crawl
13:28:34 <Mu_> iron giant is kickin ass :P
13:29:54 <blackpenguin> i hope you dont refer to jessica with that ;)
13:30:06 <blackpenguin> poor jessica
13:30:41 <doy> oh nice, you split it into two streams
13:30:48 <doy> much better
13:30:48 <doy> (:
13:32:06 <blackpenguin> it even makes it easier to correct bugs and work on stats-output without stopping the fights.
13:33:22 <blackpenguin> however the script is resumable now anyway, so I can safely reboot or something and continue where it stopped.
13:34:40 <doy> should run it on the 0.8 branch, mennas was enabled
13:34:41 <doy> (:
13:35:01 <doy> also, should enable bands
13:35:20 <doy> pikel just isn't the same without his slaves
13:35:21 <doy> (:
13:35:29 <by> so much discussion about paralysis on mantis with so little results
13:35:35 <syllogism> it doesnt show fights anymore?
13:35:47 <Zannick> so...the discussion hasn't moved? ;)
13:35:54 <blackpenguin> I think once it's done I will repeat all fights that resulted in 2:1 or 1:2 as this would probably the most entertaining and maybe worth to change the rules to fight until one of the opponents has 3 points advantage or something (with a max value) - still some time to think about details
13:37:07 <doy> syllogism: the fights are on a different channel
13:37:27 <syllogism> oh
13:38:27 <syllogism> wands are cheating :P
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13:45:19 <doy> blackpenguin: a list of biggest upsets would be interesting too, once it's over
13:45:22 <doy> (:
13:45:59 <doy> lom lobon v khufu is a pretty close fight
13:46:19 <blackpenguin> doy: biggest upsets? what do you mean?
13:46:42 <CIA-81> 03dolorous * r3d3ebf488d26 10/crawl-ref/settings/init.txt: Update comment.
13:47:02 <doy> blackpenguin: wins with the largest gap in the rankings
13:47:30 <blackpenguin> ah, right, that could be done.
13:49:32 <Mu_> a lot of those will be chars like psyche that occasionally suddenly banish their opponent :P
13:50:10 <Ashenzari> Jumping spiders can't blink (they have no eyelids) (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2452) by nubinia
13:53:18 <kilobyte> greensnark: aren't we supposed to have sprint_mu in 0.7.2/
13:53:32 <syllogism> did someone add the tiles
13:54:31 <kilobyte> Nellie has one, Chuck and the Iron Giant should be mostly ok, the only thing that stands out is the quad damage
13:54:52 <syllogism> though I'd just save it for 0.8
13:55:23 <kilobyte> at least that was what I remember to be said to be the plan
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14:17:47 <Gretell> Vicht (L9 VpCK) ASSERT(!env.markers.need_activate()) in 'main.cc' at line 2713 failed. (D:9)
14:18:36 <blue_anna> how can I delete a file from the attached files in a mantis ticket?
14:18:46 <blue_anna> I need to replace an attachment
14:19:52 <Gretell> Vicht (L9 VpCK) ASSERT(!env.markers.need_activate()) in 'main.cc' at line 2713 failed. (D:9)
14:20:20 <Ashenzari> Using Corruption on any level will cause a crash (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2453) by StudioMK
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14:20:34 <M-Kaibigan> Guys
14:20:35 <M-Kaibigan> Or
14:20:36 <M-Kaibigan> Devs
14:20:44 <M-Kaibigan> The corruption crash isn't fixed :<
14:21:02 <Zannick> the one that was just submitted?
14:21:14 <M-Kaibigan> I just submitted an bug report yeah
14:21:20 <M-Kaibigan> But it was apparently resolved a short while ago
14:21:25 <Zannick> huh
14:21:38 <M-Kaibigan> By short while, I mean 6 hours ago
14:21:42 <M-Kaibigan> CDO still crashes :<
14:23:53 <by> I've asked for cdo to be updated two or three times -- can't do more, sorry
14:24:59 <M-Kaibigan> Ah
14:25:13 <M-Kaibigan> Geh....
14:26:20 <stabwound> anyone tried rogue survivor? it's pretty cool
14:26:24 <stabwound> zombie survival roguelike
14:31:58 <Gretell> Vicht (L9 VpCK) ASSERT(!env.markers.need_activate()) in 'main.cc' at line 2713 failed. (D:9)
14:32:09 <M-Kaibigan> Oh hey there it is
14:32:25 * M-Kaibigan stops doing it.
14:37:50 <CIA-81> 03dolorous * rcfb0f25d979d 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-info.cc: Fix Mantis 2311.
14:43:55 <blue_anna> M-Kaibigan, what are you doing?
14:44:03 <M-Kaibigan> Trying to corrupt a level
14:44:14 <blue_anna> congradulations :P even got that code with that one
15:08:03 <M-Kaibigan> When is CDO usually updated anyway D:
15:12:42 <kilobyte> when Napkin, snark or due press Teh Button.
15:18:38 <Napkin> should I?
15:18:48 <M-Kaibigan> Yes
15:19:41 <Napkin> by - how about giving me your ssh public key, so you can help updating CDO?
15:20:37 <blue_anna> elliptic, borgnjor's imprisonment - paralysis effect stacked with a rot effect
15:20:50 <blue_anna> ? kinda sad because its gauranteed max health loss
15:20:58 <blue_anna> but cool too
15:21:15 <Napkin> and the last update was yesterday evening, less than 24 hours ago, by - that's the last time I saw you asking for an update
15:21:19 <elliptic> I'm not a fan of paralysis
15:21:26 <elliptic> rot is fine though
15:21:47 <blue_anna> its more or less unsavable rot--you'll be paralyssed so you're losing that health
15:22:05 <elliptic> rotted hp can be cured later always
15:22:11 <blue_anna> yup :)
15:22:16 <M-Kaibigan> Don't associate non healing things with borg, I say
15:22:42 <kilobyte> Napkin: it's because of someone repeatedly triggering that markers activation crash
15:23:12 <blue_anna> any suggestions on other Borgnjor's seplls -- if I get a handful I might look at implementing them as player spells too
15:23:24 <M-Kaibigan> Need more cigo spells too :<
15:24:28 <blue_anna> borgnjor's vampiric bolt :)
15:24:38 <M-Kaibigan> Borgnjor's Life Bind
15:24:47 <blue_anna> that is interesting .. and  acidentally implemented vampirc draining as a rnage spell the first time through so its basically already done
15:24:48 <Napkin> hey by, robert@eddie.local - isn't that you? you can login already and do update on CDO
15:24:58 <Napkin> kilobyte, compile is running :)
15:25:06 <M-Kaibigan> Drains HP from something and gives it to you, but also rots (at a lower rate than the healing)
15:25:22 <doy> i'm not sure how i feel about adding more named wizard spells with the same named wizard
15:25:27 <blue_anna> M-Kaibigan, so its like a rot-version of vampiric draining?
15:25:29 <M-Kaibigan> Or maybe like, averages your HP with the HP of the monster
15:25:40 <M-Kaibigan> So if you're low you bind and they average?
15:25:41 <doy> more interesting as one-offs i think
15:25:53 <M-Kaibigan> I agree with one-offs
15:26:15 <M-Kaibigan> Life Bind for all monsters in LOS that sets everyones HP to the average of all HP in the area
15:26:16 <blue_anna> doy, ok
15:26:29 <M-Kaibigan> At some arbitrary cost
15:26:55 <blue_anna> look I found out my Dwarf Hall needs 2 to three times the xp so I'm implementing another set of (deeper) deep dwarves
15:26:59 <kilobyte> Napkin: do you remember that .sav -> .chr change?  How disruptive it was?
15:27:09 <blue_anna> so if you've got any ideas or preferences please let me know
15:27:19 <nrook> couldn't you just make the numbers bigger
15:27:19 <M-Kaibigan> Where do I put my ideas D:
15:27:29 <blue_anna> nrook, I'd feel like cheese .. but yes
15:27:35 * M-Kaibigan goes to wiki
15:27:44 <kilobyte> because I'd want to avoid you cursing me, my mother and my sister's cats once the new one-file save format is merged
15:27:44 <Napkin> yes, but it wasn't too disruptive - just a few scripts to adjust - why do you ask, kilobyte? something coming up?
15:28:06 <Napkin> uuuh
15:28:08 <nrook> I mean, if your dwarves aren't as tough as elves are, then they should be made tougher
15:28:18 <blue_anna> nrook, they are
15:28:42 <Napkin> you definitely need to inform me and give me time to adjust everything on installation
15:28:55 <blue_anna> nrook, on average, a deep dwarf xxx is aobut as tough as a deep elf soldier, a bit tougher even
15:29:06 <kilobyte> but it's not a big issue, right?  Good to hear.
15:29:11 <blue_anna> the berserkers are almost on par with deep elf knights
15:29:19 <nrook> yes, but deep elf soldiers are laughably easy compared to conjurers, knights, summoners, even fighters
15:29:48 <Napkin> as far as I can remember, it's just the save-game transfer feature, that needs adjusting, kilobyte
15:29:51 <blue_anna> did I say soldier?.. I meant fighters
15:29:54 <blue_anna> the step-up one
15:30:00 <Napkin> of course, for every version and the separate scripts
15:30:08 <Napkin> oh.. and the save-game backup scripts
15:30:35 <Napkin> but only .chr/.sav is used on CDO for checking timestamp, i believe
15:30:48 <nrook> even fighters aren't really a threat
15:30:53 <M-Kaibigan> So is the server likely to be updated soon?
15:30:56 <Napkin> Unstable branch on CDO updated to: 0.8.0-a0-749-gcfb0f25 (29.1)
15:30:57 <M-Kaibigan> Or should I stop playing Lugonu
15:31:08 <M-Kaibigan> Or was that it
15:31:21 <blue_anna> right, that paired with the fact that for some reason a TON of elfs spawn on the elf branch .. its over twice as many elves as dwarfs
15:31:29 <blue_anna> and there's 7 levels versus 5
15:32:01 <elliptic> are the dwarves generating in packs?
15:32:01 <Napkin> M-Kaibigan: that meant, that the trunk/master version on CDO was just updated to reflect latest development changes
15:32:04 <blue_anna> the total xp is aobut 1/3ish .. I need some more meat for the lower levels, is what it works out to
15:32:10 <elliptic> that could explain it if they aren't
15:32:10 <M-Kaibigan> Yay
15:32:13 <blue_anna> elliptic, no
15:32:18 <blue_anna> are the elves?
15:32:21 <M-Kaibigan> Anyway to see if corruption actually works now.. then ?
15:32:23 <blue_anna> I never checked that :)
15:32:30 <elliptic> yes, most of the elves appear in packs
15:32:35 <blue_anna> aha!
15:32:39 <Napkin> kilobyte: any plan yet for when to merge that change?
15:32:44 <blue_anna> elliptic, <3
15:32:53 <Napkin> during the week while I'm at work would be best ;)
15:33:17 <elliptic> where by packs I mean mixed groups with elves of varying professions, of course
15:33:29 <kilobyte> Napkin: it'd have to be finished first, and there's still quite a bit of work to be done
15:33:35 <kilobyte> the tag system is a mess
15:33:39 <blue_anna> elliptic, yea bands -- I had to do that for my trollkonor (troll wives)
15:33:45 <Napkin> take your time ;)
15:34:46 <doy> also, there are 14 different kinds of deep elves
15:34:53 <blue_anna> doy, yea
15:34:59 <blue_anna> 2 of them never show up though
15:35:01 <blue_anna> I think
15:35:01 <doy> which is why elven halls works with only elves
15:35:22 <doy> blue_anna: they all show up, at least on elf:7 (explicitly placed)
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15:41:54 <by> Napkin: I know I can usually log in, but I'm on a different computer currently and I haven't synched my public keys and I can't access that computer
15:42:02 <kilobyte> doy: it's a problem I noticed for the Forest.  I wanted to keep the number of spriggans low to have them well-differentiated, but now I see that was a bad idea.  Since bears/wolves/what not have only a support role, I now think I should have all the variants of berserkers, hunters, multiple casters and what not.
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15:42:27 <by> Napkin: and thanks for updating yesterday, I didn't notice that happened
15:42:54 <doy> kilobyte: yes
15:43:17 <doy> but the other thing to keep in mind is not just duplicating types from existing races
15:43:36 <doy> this has been done pretty well so far with elf/merfolk/draconians
15:43:54 <doy> but with adding more and more intelligent races, we're likely to start running out of options at some point
15:44:10 <kilobyte> yeah.  That's why I don't want priests, since orcs, elves and draconians already have them.
15:48:25 <blue_anna> the only half-way problem with that is that deep dwarves, of all the race types, could most use healing classes
15:48:37 <blue_anna> but I got around that with Be's and Ne's and such
15:49:18 <blue_anna> I thought of doing a DDCK but Malcolm only heals on a kill anyway so thats kinda pointless for a monster :P
15:49:21 <kilobyte> other races having the same classes is not a showstopper
15:49:29 <blue_anna> plus, they bring demons, and that just not part of the theme
15:49:30 <nrook> well, there's no reason you couldn't get an elyvilonite religious figure
15:49:45 <nrook> or, rather, someone who uses prayer to heal
15:49:52 <kilobyte> yeah, Elyvilon monsters would be unique
15:49:54 <blue_anna> I thought someone put a good reaosn on the wiki
15:49:55 <nrook> who worships an indeterminate god
15:49:55 <Zannick> malcolm :)
15:50:24 <kilobyte> even the holyhaul has only apis, who are non-sentient bovines
15:50:54 <nrook> not every DD has to have a way to heal, there just has to be a system that allows DDs to be healed
15:51:36 <nrook> hmm, phase shift should scale based on tloc
15:51:46 <kilobyte> dedicated healers would be the best way to explain how the race survives IMO
15:51:52 <doy> yeah
15:52:06 <doy> every individual deep dwarf doesn't need to be able to heal themselves
15:52:13 <doy> this is their home
15:52:17 <blue_anna> the bulk of them are unclassed
15:52:19 <doy> or similar enough
15:52:24 <kilobyte> nrook: its duration already does; that's not a "no", though
15:52:39 <blue_anna> the rarity function returns 300 for regular (unhealing) dds, and 100 for the others except 67 for the artificer
15:53:16 <nrook> indeed, but duration tends to be a less noticeable effect compared to bigger numbers
15:53:51 <nrook> and even a slight benefit for having 15+ tloc would be cool
15:54:07 <blue_anna> the healing player styles are kiku, ely, *necromancer, and trog, -- no others?
15:54:12 <blue_anna> ooh, and malcolm
15:54:17 <blue_anna> but that sucks
15:54:28 <nrook> tso heals those who kill evil but that isn't what you're looking for
15:54:39 <by> is this the rarity function that should be in the range 0..100?
15:55:06 <blue_anna> by, it is the rarity function in mon-pick .. I copied the scale from the orcs function
15:55:31 <by> from the analysis I remember (a year or two ago) values above 100 don't make sense
15:56:23 <kilobyte> wasn't that 1000?
15:56:26 <blue_anna> nrook, the divine halo from tso is interesting
15:56:39 <nrook> it is, but it should be saved for holy monsters
15:56:58 <nrook> it's not really interesting for DD
15:57:03 <blue_anna> you'd vote against any dd paladin ?
15:57:06 <blue_anna> ok
15:57:06 <kilobyte> no, 100
15:57:13 <nrook> yeah
15:57:39 <kilobyte> somewhat more than 100 does make sense
15:57:44 <doy> there are already a bunch of rarities above 100
15:57:55 <by> but they don't have any effect
15:58:15 <elliptic> blue_anna: healing player styles are makhleb, makhleb, makhleb, and occasionally ely
15:58:25 <elliptic> even the necromancers go makhleb
15:58:29 <doy> i like trog
15:58:38 <elliptic> oh, yes, and trog occasionally also
15:59:08 <elliptic> but vampiric draining by itself isn't enough without a lot of suffering
15:59:19 <elliptic> !lg * won dd s=god
15:59:20 <Sequell> 130 games for * (won dd): 81x Makhleb, 12x Trog, 11x Elyvilon, 7x The Shining One, 5x Sif Muna, 5x Nemelex Xobeh, 4x Kikubaaqudgha, 2x Yredelemnul, 1x Cheibriados, 1x Lugonu, 1x
15:59:23 <kilobyte> rarities over 100 matter when the monster is not on its designated depth
15:59:36 <blue_anna> yea
15:59:40 <blue_anna> for mosnters its different though
15:59:56 <blue_anna> trog is _by far_ better than the others
16:00:10 <nrook> is regen really an interesting monster spell?
16:00:11 <elliptic> that's a matter of implementation
16:00:12 <blue_anna> kiku is nothing without brognjor's or ddoor
16:00:26 <blue_anna> and malcolm is bad too
16:00:46 <elliptic> bad? I'd think a dwarf with summon demon would be pretty good
16:00:51 <nrook> and that is why DD should have their own special healer class, unrelated to PC options
16:01:07 <blue_anna> elliptic, its awesome :D but it is not thematic to my branch
16:01:23 <doy> yeah, i don't think we want to model dd on player dd choices so much
16:01:35 <blue_anna> Im so tempted but I have to remind myself .. no, you're doing the folklore version of dwarfs here
16:01:38 <doy> i think i nifty thematic thing would be to have monster dd come in packs, with healers
16:01:40 <elliptic> blue_anna: in that case you should just forget about player dd choices altogether
16:01:42 <doy> who can cast heal other
16:01:46 <kilobyte> by: being 10 levels out of depth, in both directions, turns rarity 100 into 0.  Thus, the monster can spawn only after a long string of non-picks when the chooser decides to ignore level differences.
16:02:06 <blue_anna> doy, bands are coming .. thanks to elliptic  for first pointing it out\
16:02:32 <by> so monsters with rarity 300 are more likely to be extremely out of their depth?
16:02:53 <blue_anna> by, no the higher the rarity, the LESS rare they are
16:02:54 <blue_anna> :)
16:02:57 <doy> dd necros with vamp draining are fine, but i think having healers to provide the majority of the healing for all of the dwarves would be something unique
16:03:10 <by> blue_anna: of course
16:03:12 <blue_anna> 300 is the most common creature there, likely
16:03:21 <blue_anna> ooo I see what you mean
16:03:26 <blue_anna> yea I guess that's true too
16:03:45 <kilobyte> yeah, they can overcome up to 17 levels of difference.  And up to 14 they keep full 100 rarity.
16:03:46 <Napkin> by: no worries - just wanted to make sure you're not getting frustrated about pinging us to update CDO. Not too active in IRC atm but trying to read all messages.
16:04:01 <by> don't worry
16:04:04 <elliptic> the problem with having deep dwarf monsters is that no regeneration is mostly irrelevant for monsters
16:04:19 <blue_anna> doy, the lore is really heavy on the fighting and the interaction with dead things .. if I can not do a healer class I'll be proud
16:04:43 <nrook> then make the healing be creepy necro healing
16:04:45 <doy> elliptic: not really
16:04:45 <kilobyte> blue_anna: with your branch being 5 (or so) levels deep, such rarities hit the cap and are indeed irrelevant
16:04:53 <blue_anna> kilobyte, by how does that work basically?
16:04:57 <doy> elliptic: it allows you to run away at least
16:05:07 <blue_anna> yea I see that :)
16:05:26 <elliptic> doy: if you can run away safely then you've won anyway, even if stuff regenerates
16:05:34 <kilobyte> blue_anna: mon-place.cc around line 588
16:05:38 <elliptic> regeneration is only interesting on monsters very early on
16:05:39 <by> I think that high rarity effect is not intentional
16:05:48 <by> and I'm not sure it's important
16:05:55 <doy> we *really* need to rewrite mon-pick
16:06:09 <nrook> is that on the 0.8 agenda?
16:06:28 <M-Kaibigan> It would be better if the dwarves didn't heal at all
16:06:33 <M-Kaibigan> A branch where the monsters don't regen is unique
16:06:34 <elliptic> it might be relevant on a DD unique but not on random monsters
16:06:44 <Eronarn> i'd rather see a dwarf that heals other dwarves
16:06:46 <M-Kaibigan> eg. players adopting a specific style
16:06:55 <by> pillar dancing branch
16:07:00 <doy> Eronarn: that's what i said
16:07:00 <nrook> the styles that would benefit from that are really boring, though
16:07:07 <Eronarn> say, a deep dwarf alchemist that runs around handing out potions; has a limited reserve of them; must go to a specific spot on the level to pick up more of them
16:07:15 <by> yes, +1 to heal others
16:07:23 <blue_anna> it would be nice if I could specify a level for peak distribution (0 on the x axis), a count for max count at 0 (the "rarity"), a mean and a variance and have it do the distribution from there
16:07:26 <M-Kaibigan> You can pillar dance anywhere really
16:07:33 <kilobyte> M-Kaibigan: zombies/skeletons already have that
16:07:55 <nrook> besides, even if healing itself isn't tactically relevant, the fact that deep dwarves must be healed is a thematic string that ties the branch together
16:08:07 <elliptic> yeah, and how much do people care about no healing for zombies/skeletons?
16:08:16 <M-Kaibigan> Nobody really does
16:08:17 <by> blue_anna: if you could code such a system, so it can be tuned to be similar to current monster distribution, that'd be fantastic
16:08:20 <elliptic> that's more of a nerf to player necromancers than anything interesting with fighting them
16:08:33 <M-Kaibigan> Don't let them heal but have some of the tougher groups come with a healer
16:08:41 <Eronarn> (thought: DDs, when at home, heal themseles using an underground spring of healing water.)
16:08:43 <M-Kaibigan> Random ones shouldn't get some healing power
16:09:13 <blue_anna> by, I could code a funtion that takes those four values for a monster, the current level depth, and returns a bool = one_chance_in(N)
16:09:27 <M-Kaibigan> So +1 to heal others
16:09:45 <blue_anna> by, but retrofitting it to the old pick system, when I dont -really- understand that system, no promises
16:10:07 <by> no, replace the old pick system
16:10:09 <M-Kaibigan> Then enslavement would become realllly usefull
16:10:17 <M-Kaibigan> Free healing
16:10:24 <kilobyte> well, it works quite well currently, so it's not something urgent
16:10:44 <kilobyte> you can slash your rarities by 10 and get what you probably want
16:10:47 <Eronarn> M-Kaibigan: i don't think it should just be "dwarf, with a healing spell"
16:10:50 <Eronarn> that's a bit too boring
16:10:54 <M-Kaibigan> True
16:11:31 <M-Kaibigan> Then a necromancer that sacrifices his own life to heal the dwarves around him
16:11:40 <M-Kaibigan> "The Deep Dwarf Necromancer sacrifices his own vitatlity to boost his kin!"
16:11:44 <elliptic> mass borg other
16:11:44 <doy> how about a new non-dwarf monster that gives regen to everything within some radius?
16:11:46 <M-Kaibigan> And they all insta-heal
16:11:52 <M-Kaibigan> *vitality
16:11:56 <blackpenguin> aww... Khufu entombed himself (while fighting agains TRJ in the arena)
16:11:57 <M-Kaibigan> Then player priority is to kill the necro
16:11:59 <doy> elliptic: also a nifty idea
16:12:25 <elliptic> I think monster healing is only tactically interesting if it is instant or much much faster than normal
16:12:25 <blue_anna> Eronarn, what about potions of porridge? I already had put some of those in the game
16:12:26 <M-Kaibigan> I thought I said that :<
16:12:37 <Zannick> The deep dwarf necromancer sacrifices his kin's vitality to boost his own!
16:12:39 <blue_anna> if they drink potions of ... oh wait, that implies a racial trait that doesnt exist
16:12:49 <elliptic> zannick: sounds more realistic, yeah
16:12:58 <Eronarn> blue_anna: DDs start with plenty of healing potions, it would be pretty easy to come up with some reason for why
16:13:11 <blue_anna> Eronarn, thats a good idea
16:13:17 <M-Kaibigan> A branch that has lots of healing potions?
16:13:19 <M-Kaibigan> That would be nice
16:13:27 <M-Kaibigan> Sorts out the vampire end-game
16:13:30 <Eronarn> 'there are DD alchemists that make healing potions', 'there's a magic healing river the DDs bottle whenever they leave home', 'they have priests that bless potions of healing'
16:13:43 <blue_anna> M-Kaibigan, they do but.. you basically need to be a stalker to get them, they drink them :P
16:13:43 <M-Kaibigan> I like the alchemsit
16:13:56 <M-Kaibigan> blue_anna: Perfect for a vampire then :)
16:13:59 <blue_anna> I'm liking the alchemist too
16:14:18 <M-Kaibigan> It would be cool to see one in a pack, "The dwarf runs to the alchemist for a healing potion!"
16:14:19 <blue_anna> some guy in a lab pumping out healing pots would be a nice insert
16:14:22 <blue_anna> and a nice unique
16:14:35 <Eronarn> what walls does the branch have? i'd love to see a DD alchemist that passwalls in and tosses a satchel of potions to save his buddies
16:14:36 <M-Kaibigan> So they all gang on you and flee to the alchemist at the back or whatever
16:15:14 <Zannick> hahaha
16:15:24 <M-Kaibigan> Mass borg other is better though
16:15:29 <M-Kaibigan> But less fun
16:15:42 <elliptic> I still think that you don't need to worry about DD healing too much
16:15:48 <Eronarn> M-Kaibigan: i don't think it's a good answer, it just makes killing the DDs take a bit longer
16:15:52 <Eronarn> if it's a one-shot deal
16:15:56 <elliptic> assume that they are all worshipping makhleb and are hoping to kill you to get healed
16:16:00 <M-Kaibigan> Yeah
16:16:01 <elliptic> seems realistic :P
16:16:07 <M-Kaibigan> Heheh
16:16:16 <M-Kaibigan> You could put a bunch of neutrals in there?
16:16:19 <M-Kaibigan> :V
16:16:25 <blue_anna> the walls are LIGHTGREY regular stone
16:16:26 <Eronarn> elliptic: it's not so much that DDs need healing, but healing is such an obvious point to the DDs that it's a good way to add some interesting combat effect (but not for all of them, just some rare / unique monster)
16:16:36 <elliptic> having some sort of DD with heal other could be fun, yeah
16:16:43 <M-Kaibigan> Dwarves dig right
16:16:55 <M-Kaibigan> Maybe they merge into the rock like a rock worm and when in there do some weird stuff to heal
16:17:00 <elliptic> but in general I don't feel like it should be a major theme
16:17:04 <nrook> I like the magical river idea from before
16:17:13 <nrook> a regen effect would be an interesting terrain feature
16:17:17 <Eronarn> that wouldn't be a good idea M-Kaibigan - it needs to be something that a DD can't do by himself, away from home
16:17:21 <blue_anna> the last change Im doing to the level might be to write a custom map generation to make it look like it was carved out in two stages, an early stage in brown rock and and uneven walls and then the main passages evened out and redone in a nice white stone
16:17:22 <Eronarn> else all player DDs would be doing it, too
16:17:35 <M-Kaibigan> Magic river sounds cool then
16:17:36 <Zannick> mmmm
16:17:39 <nrook> could be a plant/statue aura, a river, a special kind of mist, etc.
16:17:42 <Zannick> john.williams++ # hook
16:17:44 <nrook> blue_anna: ooh that sounds nice
16:17:50 <Zannick> whoops, wrong channel
16:17:51 <M-Kaibigan> Or
16:17:52 <M-Kaibigan> Not a river
16:17:55 <M-Kaibigan> A fountain
16:17:59 <elliptic> it would be cool if player DDs had an easier time regenerating in DD branch, yeah
16:18:00 <M-Kaibigan> "Fountain of healing"
16:18:10 <M-Kaibigan> Or a well of healing
16:18:25 <elliptic> except then people would just go there periodically to heal :/
16:18:31 <M-Kaibigan> Except
16:18:31 <Eronarn> M-Kaibigan: it could be that there's a bunch of exhaustible fountains throughout the earlier levels, and at the very bottom, there's an inexhaustible river
16:18:32 <M-Kaibigan> It's magical
16:18:36 <M-Kaibigan> And only the dwarves know how to operate
16:18:39 <M-Kaibigan> (plus player deep dwarves)
16:18:50 <M-Kaibigan> So the player deep dwarf has to return home to the dwarf branch to heal if he's not makh :V
16:18:53 <Eronarn> said river could, of course, have some big awful monster in it that is constantly getting healed :)
16:19:02 <Eronarn> deep kraken!!!
16:19:13 <nrook> elliptic: oh no, I hadn't even thought of that
16:19:18 <M-Kaibigan> Not a kraken
16:19:19 <M-Kaibigan> A...
16:19:26 <M-Kaibigan> What else has loads of tentacles
16:19:33 <Eronarn> a two kraken
16:19:35 <blue_anna> chtulu
16:19:38 <doy> cthulu
16:19:40 <doy> heh
16:19:44 <M-Kaibigan> It should be some freaking necro monster right
16:19:49 <M-Kaibigan> That the deep dwarves keep
16:19:51 <elliptic> anything that makes player DDs much easier if they happen to get DD branch is bad IMO
16:20:02 <doy> elliptic: agreed
16:20:04 <blue_anna> elliptic, really?
16:20:09 <M-Kaibigan> And when you kill it the magical well stops working
16:20:18 <M-Kaibigan> because the monsters was providing the power or whatever
16:20:18 <blue_anna> except dwarven racial items -- though
16:20:20 <Zannick> a unique kraken?
16:20:31 <elliptic> minor things like racial items are fine
16:20:34 <Zannick> the royal kraken
16:20:35 <Eronarn> hmm
16:20:36 <by> it's ok if the branch is easier for DD, but not the whole game
16:20:38 <Eronarn> elliptic, here's an idea
16:20:43 <M-Kaibigan> What's the main theme in the DD branch anyway?
16:20:45 <Zannick> hahaha
16:20:46 <Eronarn> you can't get to the treasure chamber without shutting off the healing forever
16:20:59 <Eronarn> losing elf-equivalent treasure is a pretty big drawback
16:21:08 <doy> Eronarn: unlimited healing is more useful than basically any treasure
16:21:18 <elliptic> eronarn: eh, would still encourage scummy behavior with going to dwarf:5 whenever you are injured
16:21:19 <M-Kaibigan> But
16:21:25 <M-Kaibigan> To heal, they have to survive the monster in the river
16:21:40 <nrook> monsters have a bad habit of being killed
16:21:41 <M-Kaibigan> And the monster should be powerful enough you when you try to drink the water
16:21:49 <M-Kaibigan> When you kill the monster the river stops working
16:21:52 <blue_anna> M-Kaibigan, it is the "DWarf Hall of Fallen HEros"  -- germanic folklore is a prime example of something called "ancestor worshi" and all their myths talk aobut the world as formed from their ancestors
16:21:59 <blue_anna> dwarves/elves talked to th dead
16:22:03 <M-Kaibigan> Oh
16:22:04 <Eronarn> doy: not necessarily. it may be unlimited healing, but you for example can't use it while you're in hell, in pan
16:22:22 <blue_anna> so I made it a branch called "of fallen heros"  -- the end depth lives up to this name
16:22:30 <Eronarn> blue_anna: rename it dwarven fortress!!! ;)
16:22:32 <blue_anna> thats all Im saying aobut that part in case you want to actually play it
16:22:37 <Zannick> hahaha
16:22:46 <nrook> healing which is hidden in a certain location is much less interesting, though
16:22:56 <nrook> it is going to provide one cool tactical situation at best
16:23:06 <M-Kaibigan> But the unique monster that gives it power :<
16:23:22 <Eronarn> it'd definitely make for a cool fight, especially if you hinted at it earlier by having the fountains of healing
16:23:39 <M-Kaibigan> But how do you tie that in with speaking to the dead and all that necro stuff
16:23:44 <Eronarn> (i'd actually make them sparkling fountains, identical to elsewhere in the dungeon, that just always give the healing effect - the player doesn't know until they start to realize the dwarfs drink from them)
16:23:49 <M-Kaibigan> The ending should be related to that really
16:24:04 <M-Kaibigan> Eronarn: Or they're sparkling to the player but not to dwarves
16:24:09 <Eronarn> M-Kaibigan: haunted water :D
16:24:13 <M-Kaibigan> "Oh the dwarf just healed himself I'll go drink too"
16:24:24 <M-Kaibigan> "You feel the urge to shout!"
16:24:37 <blue_anna> M-Kaibigan, read what I wrote .. I said that
16:24:40 <blue_anna> :)
16:24:40 <Zannick> "You drink from the fountain. The dwarf shouts at you, 'Blasphemer!'"
16:24:42 <M-Kaibigan> Oh?
16:24:45 <blue_anna> it does tie in
16:24:55 <M-Kaibigan> Do it :)
16:24:55 <blue_anna> also theres an unwritten tomb ..
16:25:28 <M-Kaibigan> So what are you doing for healing then?
16:25:31 <M-Kaibigan> Fountains right
16:25:37 <blue_anna> no
16:25:37 <Eronarn> random thought that i like:
16:25:40 <M-Kaibigan> :<
16:25:49 <blue_anna> globally all that they have is potions
16:26:11 <M-Kaibigan> Can they drop them?
16:26:14 <M-Kaibigan> When killed
16:26:20 <blue_anna> the fountain or an alchemist unique minivault I could do too
16:26:32 <blue_anna> M-Kaibigan, they can if you get them dead in time
16:26:33 <blue_anna> :P
16:26:41 <M-Kaibigan> I see
16:26:47 <blue_anna> if you wait around for them to drink them though .. it doesnt usually work
16:26:50 <Eronarn> you go down to the last level of dwarf; you're in front of a bridge covering a sparkling river; once you take a few steps you get a message about DEFILING SACRED GROUND; the river starts flowing blood instead, over the next several turns; the branch end dwarves come after you ;)
16:27:23 <M-Kaibigan> If you put in that vault make sure to throw in a couple of wands of healing too
16:27:29 * M-Kaibigan thinks about his future Vampire characters.
16:27:29 <Eronarn> blue_anna: that would be a LOT of healing potions, just so you know
16:27:37 <M-Kaibigan> Eronarn: Nothing wrong about that
16:27:39 <Eronarn> lure them into a corridor, paralyze them and kill them one at a time
16:28:05 <Eronarn> M-Kaibigan: well, it is wrong if they can be !HW; if they're only ever healing, that's not necessarily a problem, but is a consideration
16:28:24 <M-Kaibigan> As long as they actually drink them
16:28:37 <Eronarn> they won't be drinking them if they're paralyzed
16:28:44 <elliptic> giving monsters potions of heal wounds is a bad idea
16:28:45 <M-Kaibigan> And paralyze, how many charges do you think a player is actually going to have
16:28:46 <by> by the way, how about removing the starting potions of healing from DD?
16:28:48 <Zannick> "The river flows red with blood!"
16:28:56 <by> heal wounds is all they really need
16:29:02 <M-Kaibigan> I want to the fountain anyway
16:29:10 <by> even just the wand would be fine
16:29:20 <Eronarn> M-Kaibigan: not just paralyze. any effect that prevents them from drinking
16:29:23 <elliptic> by: eh, it makes sense thematically that they should be familiar with them both though, so they should at least have the knowledge of them
16:29:24 <M-Kaibigan> Give them heal wounds but make it only a chance to drop
16:29:28 <Eronarn> killing them in one hit, EHing them, etc.
16:29:32 <doy> by: agreed
16:29:32 <M-Kaibigan> Chance to drop!
16:29:39 <M-Kaibigan> Not guaranteed drop
16:29:44 <by> it makes sense thematically for anyone to be familiar with healing potions
16:29:46 <Eronarn> chance to drop sucks
16:29:55 <by> and if they're used to healing with the wand?
16:29:55 <M-Kaibigan> It's better than getting no potions at all
16:29:59 <doy> M-Kaibigan: crawl doesn't do chance-to-drop
16:29:59 <elliptic> even a chance to drop !HW is bad
16:30:11 <M-Kaibigan> Then no potions of heal wounds
16:30:15 <M-Kaibigan> And instead the magical fountains
16:30:16 <nrook> there will be plenty of enchanters and conjurers doing the branch, and they will all get lots of one-hit kills
16:30:25 <doy> and i don't particularly like the fountains/river idea
16:30:25 <M-Kaibigan> Magical fountain!
16:30:30 <M-Kaibigan> :<
16:30:37 <elliptic> nrook: what is worse is that people will delay doing the branch until they can get the one-hit kills
16:30:41 <elliptic> firestorm ftw
16:31:04 <M-Kaibigan> Deep Dwarves aren't really alchemists anyway
16:31:10 <Eronarn> i think the alchemist idea would work if he can generate potions, but they're used instantly when he gives them to other dwarves, so you can only ever get a handful of potions - no farming
16:31:16 <doy> yes, the loot (including the items carried by the dwarves) needs to be balanced for the case that the player can get all of it
16:31:19 <doy> because they will
16:31:23 <M-Kaibigan> -1 to alchemist
16:31:27 <doy> Eronarn: that could work
16:31:38 <doy> M-Kaibigan: how do you know?
16:31:44 <M-Kaibigan> I'll go read the lore now
16:31:54 <doy> M-Kaibigan: we can make up whatever lore we want
16:31:59 <M-Kaibigan> If they get their healing from alchemists in the pack, then that's suggesting it's a major theme
16:32:00 <doy> that's kinda the whole point
16:32:05 <M-Kaibigan> Well
16:32:07 <M-Kaibigan> Then I like the idea
16:32:13 <M-Kaibigan> As long as it involves dwarves going to the alch
16:32:16 <Eronarn> M-Kaibigan: who do you think makes the potions littered all over crawl? :)
16:32:17 <blue_anna> nrook, they dont *all* have potions -- if it needs to be toned down we can do that
16:32:47 <by> the problem of people delaying branches until they're trivial should be fixed by making the game so hard they need to go somewhere they don't want to
16:32:55 <Eronarn> i'm not sure i like dwarves going though - that's basically just running away and regenning, but with a shut-off-able point of regen
16:33:08 <Eronarn> i'd rather the alchemist participate in combat, but in a less direct way than other monsters
16:33:23 <doy> well, alchemists should obviously have evaporate
16:33:24 <M-Kaibigan> Tossing potiosn to other dwarves with the dwarf not moving is good
16:33:35 <doy> in fact
16:33:45 <doy> just implement healing potions -> healing clouds
16:33:49 <M-Kaibigan> I like that
16:33:56 <M-Kaibigan> I was thinking that too!
16:33:57 <M-Kaibigan> Lol
16:33:58 <doy> and eliminate the whole running around to other dwarves entirely
16:34:08 <M-Kaibigan> That'd be great really
16:34:14 <M-Kaibigan> Should also apply to player, though
16:34:18 <doy> sure
16:34:19 <M-Kaibigan> So they can evap their own potions into non crap
16:34:31 <M-Kaibigan> But you need to take in to account -> what if the player enslaves the alchemist
16:34:34 <doy> not sure why a player would evaporate healing potions to begin with, but
16:34:37 <Eronarn> the only issue i have with evaping healing potions is that all the other uses of evaporate are pretty harmful ones, right now
16:34:38 <M-Kaibigan> Free healing for life
16:34:40 <M-Kaibigan> doy: Allies
16:34:54 <M-Kaibigan> Especially perma allies
16:34:54 <Eronarn> it feels wrong to evaporate (steam) something that will heal
16:34:55 <doy> M-Kaibigan: they would have a fixed set of potions
16:35:07 <M-Kaibigan> Fixed set?
16:35:24 <doy> M-Kaibigan: they wouldn't be an unlimited supply of potions
16:35:28 <M-Kaibigan> Oh
16:35:50 <M-Kaibigan> And what status effect does the player get if they go into the cloud
16:35:54 <blue_anna> monster AI are particularly bad at using cloud effects wisely, and worse ad not walking into them after they are already there
16:35:56 <doy> regen probably
16:36:02 <Ashenzari> don't give DD healing potions (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2455) by rob
16:36:02 <Ashenzari> clouds out of LOS (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2454) by st
16:36:02 <M-Kaibigan> What about vampires :<
16:36:11 <doy> what about them
16:36:20 <M-Kaibigan> Can't benefit :<
16:36:23 <Eronarn> another issue with the healing potion would be makign sure it's not more efficient to evaporate a healing potion, and stand in it, than just drink it
16:36:25 <M-Kaibigan> At bloodless :<
16:36:33 <doy> M-Kaibigan: oh well
16:36:41 <M-Kaibigan> Regen is fine
16:36:47 <M-Kaibigan> Regen is worse than quaffing anyway
16:36:56 <doy> M-Kaibigan: not necessarily
16:37:10 <M-Kaibigan> Well, in a fight, if you're low, you'll quaff
16:38:09 <M-Kaibigan> And if you're not low but want to heal, you'll cast regen anyway
16:38:23 <M-Kaibigan> (or resting)
16:39:13 <blue_anna> anyone got a better title for a high level necromancer than "unborn"?
16:39:28 <Eronarn> one thing that could be cool, if we did "dwarves run away to get healed": reverse swiftness spell, makes the ground grab at your feet
16:39:42 <M-Kaibigan> Heh
16:39:44 <blue_anna> I was going to use a kiku title, but the best one is Black Sun and .. Deep Dwarf Black Sun -- will make you wonder
16:39:57 <doy> Eronarn: that's already planned as a crypt effect of some sort
16:40:02 <M-Kaibigan> I don't like that name D:
16:40:02 <M-Kaibigan> Too long
16:40:04 <M-Kaibigan> Too many words
16:40:08 <by> !lm * sk=necromancy s=title
16:40:09 <Sequell> 66590 milestones for * (sk=necromancy): 28321x Reanimator, 19495x Grave Robber, 14787x Necromancer, 2814x Thanatomancer, 238x Dwarf of Death, 181x Demonspawn of Death, 161x Elf of Death, 126x Human of Death, 116x Demigod of Death, 96x Orc of Death, 70x Mummy of Death, 58x God of Death, 37x Kenku of Death, 28x Naga of Death, 27x Draconian of Death, 15x Vampire of Death, 5x Divine of Death, 4x Kobol...
16:40:12 <blue_anna> yea :)
16:40:15 <M-Kaibigan> How do I beat this DDBS?
16:40:23 <blue_anna> Bs?
16:40:27 <M-Kaibigan> Black Sun
16:40:27 <by> "Deep Dwarf of Death"
16:40:34 <Eronarn> blue_anna: well, if you're going for an ancestor theme
16:40:39 <Zannick> Deep Death Dwarf
16:40:49 <nrook> do DD necros really need to be kiku? it seems like they'd work better going off the ancestral theme, yeah
16:40:49 <M-Kaibigan> Deep Dwarf Elder?
16:40:56 <Eronarn> deep dwarf historian, deep dwarf geneaologist :D
16:40:59 <blue_anna> ooooh .. Ancestral Deep Dwarf
16:41:04 <nrook> kiku doesn't really give interesting monster abilities
16:41:10 <by> "Deep Dwarf Thanatomancer"
16:41:19 <Eronarn> chanter, ritualist, spiritcaller
16:41:25 <Eronarn> ancestor cultist
16:41:30 <kilobyte> Necrophiliac
16:41:35 <blue_anna> lol
16:41:45 <Zannick> Dead Deep Dwarf
16:41:55 <Eronarn> deep dwarf idolator
16:41:57 <M-Kaibigan> Deep Dwarf Penultimist
16:42:05 <Eronarn> ooh, you know what would be nice?
16:42:24 <Eronarn> deep dwarf supplicant. starts neutral, raving lunatic, but lets itself be possessed by an ancestor spirit if the fight goes on long enough
16:42:48 <blue_anna> thats sorta the mechanic for DDBe's :P
16:43:12 <M-Kaibigan> Deep Dwarf Thaumaturgist!
16:43:22 <Eronarn> neat
16:43:29 <Zannick> Deep Dwarf Death Knight!
16:43:35 <M-Kaibigan> Lol
16:43:35 <Eronarn> blue_anna: random thought: i *LOVE* the idea of some ancestor spirit monster
16:43:38 <Eronarn> that is invisible
16:43:46 <blue_anna> DDDK! I like it
16:43:47 <Eronarn> and maybe doesn't take up its own tile
16:43:49 <blue_anna> I might do that
16:43:50 <blue_anna> too
16:44:00 <blue_anna> Eronarn, it's in there
16:44:08 <Eronarn> what's it do?
16:44:08 <M-Kaibigan> The DDDK would have to melee though right
16:44:10 <M-Kaibigan> Since it's a knight
16:44:16 <blue_anna> well, not with ancestor in the title, but its obvious enough
16:44:17 <nrook> all monsters melee
16:44:18 <Eronarn> M-Kaibigan: knights can crossbow people.
16:44:30 <blue_anna> yes, its .. what a DDDK was
16:44:31 <blue_anna> :)
16:44:48 <blue_anna> there's even the two types .. a kiku bound, and a yrede
16:44:53 <M-Kaibigan> Oh by the way
16:44:54 <M-Kaibigan> To sort out healing
16:44:57 <M-Kaibigan> Vampiric weapons?
16:45:03 <Eronarn> "deep dwarf scion" could be another decent one.
16:45:19 <M-Kaibigan> Give a few of them higher chance to spawn with vamp weapons
16:45:20 <blue_anna> scion .. I gotta look that word up
16:45:26 <Zannick> mmm, scion
16:45:26 <blue_anna> thats nice and short
16:45:38 <M-Kaibigan> Scion is nice
16:45:39 <M-Kaibigan> Good meaning too
16:45:40 <Eronarn> "and more importantly, unused"
16:45:43 * Zannick fondly remembers the magic card scion of darkness
16:45:50 <M-Kaibigan> "He's a scion of a powerful family."
16:45:51 <blue_anna> !! wow, its means freakin Descendant
16:45:56 <blue_anna> taht's perfect
16:46:10 <Zannick> more literally, the one due to inherit, iirc
16:46:17 <M-Kaibigan> Deep Dwarf Scire Facias
16:46:23 * M-Kaibigan looks at the next word in the dictionary.
16:46:41 <Eronarn> we could always go Roman, of course: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gens
16:46:55 <M-Kaibigan> Make sure to put in loads of sausages
16:47:00 <blue_anna> better even than Deep Dwarf Bambino
16:47:07 <M-Kaibigan> So when sausage becomes perma food for vampires, I can get some
16:47:12 <Zannick> Deep Dwarf Patriarch
16:47:28 <blue_anna> well
16:47:53 <M-Kaibigan> Sausage :<
16:47:58 <Eronarn> hmm, blue_anna, here's a thought
16:48:07 <blue_anna> scion could be a DDDK of yrede .. the other great word related to scion is  -- spawn
16:48:10 <blue_anna> :)
16:48:14 <blue_anna> Spawn
16:48:22 <Eronarn> one of the monsters i had planned out for my Dwarf Fortress branch was a choir of dwarves who sang
16:48:35 <blue_anna> Eronarn, you're still doing that right?
16:48:36 <Eronarn> what if it was a choir of invisible dwarven spirits instead? :)
16:48:39 <blue_anna> dwarfs are not deep dwarfs
16:48:50 <M-Kaibigan> "You hear an eldritch singing!"
16:48:55 <blue_anna> dpeg hoped someon would do the ddwarf/mountain dwarfs still, seperately
16:48:58 <Eronarn> blue_anna: the one that i did was an elf replacement, and would either be dwarf or deep dwarf (equal odds).
16:49:11 <Eronarn> but, not going to implement on my own any time soon!
16:49:11 <blue_anna> I even removed the regular dwarfs from the branch to make it a clear distinction
16:49:37 <Eronarn> (Dwarf would be a good replacement for Orc, imo. Four options: Dwarf -> Elf, Orc -> Elf, Dwarf -> DD, Orc -> DD. All seem fine to me.)
16:49:57 <blue_anna> it would probably have to be the reverse .. DD -> Dwarf
16:50:19 <Zannick> DD would probably be harder than MD
16:50:32 <Eronarn> er, why would the *deep* dwarves have a cave leading to the dwarves? ;)
16:50:46 <M-Kaibigan> Well, Elf is full of deep elves
16:50:54 <M-Kaibigan> Why would there be a DD branch and MD branch
16:51:09 <blue_anna> why doesnt elf have other elves?
16:51:12 <M-Kaibigan> And not a SE branch and HE branch
16:51:18 <nrook> it's the deep elf branch
16:51:18 <Zannick> there aren't any non-deep elves, except the vanillas and shapeshifters
16:51:21 <Zannick> iirc
16:51:38 <Eronarn> M-Kaibigan: because those don't live in the dungeon, of course
16:51:45 <Eronarn> (sludge elves would live in Swamp, if anywhere)
16:52:04 <M-Kaibigan> Mountain dwarves live in their own fort in a mountain somewher
16:52:07 <M-Kaibigan> Not in the dungeon, right
16:52:15 <nrook> we have an underwater ocean
16:52:25 <nrook> I'm not sure logistics are that important at this point
16:52:29 <Zannick> and portals to volcanos
16:52:44 <M-Kaibigan> I'd like to see the Angel branch before the MD branch
16:52:47 <Eronarn> anyways, not really a relevant point
16:53:05 <Zannick> i'd like to see an upside-down branch
16:53:10 <Eronarn> i think a ghostly choir that you can only see if you can see invisible would be super cool
16:53:12 <Zannick> like a tower, or something
16:53:17 <Eronarn> it could inspire the deep dwarves around you
16:53:18 <Zannick> where to progress you go up
16:53:23 <M-Kaibigan> Is someone doing a holy branch?
16:53:24 <by> with boulders to push?
16:53:25 <Eronarn> Zannick: Nethack Did It First
16:53:32 <Zannick> Eronarn: i know
16:53:44 <Zannick> i also had the idea to put a unique named rodney at the top >.>
16:53:51 <Zannick> and give him a plastic replica of a rune of zot
16:53:52 <Zannick> <.<
16:54:28 <by> a sideways branch!
16:54:37 <M-Kaibigan> Sprint
16:55:08 <by> the abyss is closer
16:55:34 <Eronarn> now that we have so many capabilities with lua, i'd really love to see an endless maze branch
16:56:14 <M-Kaibigan> Or change the lab to have like
16:56:16 <M-Kaibigan> Sphinxes with riddles
16:56:33 <M-Kaibigan> And traps or whatever
16:57:43 <Eronarn> M-Kaibigan: one idea i had for a Lab-like portal vault was one that had all kinds of traps, pressure plates, etc. in small enclosed rooms that you had to navigate to get to the loot. kind of like a zigg in concept, but a lot more puzzle-y
16:58:36 <M-Kaibigan> That would be nice in tomb
16:59:12 <M-Kaibigan> Cool if you stepped on a pressure plate and the statues came to life
16:59:19 <M-Kaibigan> Then came off it and the statues froze again :V
16:59:37 <M-Kaibigan> But you have to be on it for like, 50 turns for the door to open fully
17:06:12 <Ashenzari> XP pool should not be capped (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2456) by StudioMK
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17:41:28 <CIA-81> 03kilobyte 07save-package * rb1fd974d564c 10/crawl-ref/ (154 files in 12 dirs): Merge branch 'master' into save-package
17:41:40 <CIA-81> 03kilobyte 07save-package * r5ad504f48385 10/crawl-ref/source/ (errors.cc errors.h main.cc): Make external fails catchable.
17:41:40 <CIA-81> 03kilobyte 07save-package * r2e9e41d4288e 10/crawl-ref/source/ (package.cc package.h): Add public constructors for chunk readers/writers, so no ref handling is needed.
17:41:40 <CIA-81> 03kilobyte 07save-package * rd582910df3e1 10/crawl-ref/source/package.cc: List the save's chunks on open when DEBUG_PACKAGE is defined.
17:41:40 <CIA-81> 03kilobyte 07save-package * r789d289d2d32 10/crawl-ref/source/package.cc: Fix chunks not being found due to nulls in their names.
17:41:41 <CIA-81> 03kilobyte 07save-package * r12fba431624b 10/crawl-ref/source/ (AppHdr.h files.cc files.h initfile.cc): Convert ./crawl --save-version to the new format.
17:41:42 <CIA-81> 03kilobyte 07save-package * re90b1c98777c 10/crawl-ref/source/ (package.cc package.h): Allow "aborting" a save file, to bail out safely, or prepare for discarding.
17:41:43 <CIA-81> 03kilobyte 07save-package * re2880533b737 10/crawl-ref/source/ (files.cc tags.cc tags.h): Support for writing tags as chunks.
17:41:55 <CIA-81> 03kilobyte 07save-package * re5d4a0bd903f 10/crawl-ref/source/ (AppHdr.h files.cc ouch.cc): Rip away the save tarring/zipping code.
17:41:55 <CIA-81> 03kilobyte 07save-package * r3166d015580a 10/crawl-ref/source/ (files.cc ng-setup.cc ouch.cc player.cc player.h): Create and delete the save file.
17:41:56 <CIA-81> 03kilobyte 07save-package * r5a61ae8b6da3 10/crawl-ref/source/package.cc: Fix plain writes to a new chunk as the lone operation being ignored.
17:41:59 <CIA-81> 03kilobyte 07save-package * rea38c37cd322 10/crawl-ref/source/ (files.cc initfile.cc package.cc package.h tags.h): Use a pointer instead of a reference, since you.save will be everywhere.
17:42:12 <CIA-81> 03kilobyte 07save-package * r768f81b9db9d 10/crawl-ref/source/initfile.cc: "crawl --edit-save", to mess with the innards that used to be separate files.
17:42:12 <CIA-81> 03kilobyte 07save-package * rec1df58464ee 10/crawl-ref/source/package.cc: Allow reads of 0 bytes, they do happen.
17:42:13 <CIA-81> 03kilobyte 07save-package * rf3a8af65ae97 10/crawl-ref/source/ (files.cc files.h initfile.cc main.cc tags.cc tags.h): Store most save subfiles as chunks, except chr, lua, tdl.
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18:48:37 <blue_anna> how do I call hurt() from a monster I am getting as an actor?
18:49:04 <blue_anna> actor->as_monster()->hurt() gives me :
18:49:05 <blue_anna> error: passing ‘const actor’ as ‘this’ argument of ‘virtual int actor::hurt(const actor*, int, beam_type, bool)’ discards qualifiers
18:49:47 <blue_anna> sorry that's actor->hurt()
18:49:56 <blue_anna> error: passing ‘const monsters’ as ‘this’ argument of ‘virtual int monsters::hurt(const actor*, int, beam_type, bool)’ discards qualifiers
18:50:05 <blue_anna> that one is actor->as_monster()
18:53:14 <st_> I'm testing out ` as clouds if anyone else wants to see how it looks ingame
18:54:03 <doy> st_: where?
18:54:09 <st_> clouded on cdo
18:54:45 <doy> hmmm
18:54:54 <doy> ` overlaps with missile beams
18:56:23 <elliptic> clearly there should be poison arrow clouds
19:00:30 <M-Kaibigan> *'s would be nice
19:01:14 <M-Kaibigan> The ` looks like portals to me for some reason
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19:14:32 <CIA-81> 03doy * r52bc83e6a965 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-damage.cc: flying skeletal/icy monsters shouldn't take extra shatter damage
19:14:32 <CIA-81> 03doy * r3a97fa9ebd1f 10/crawl-ref/source/ (monster.cc spl-damage.cc): flying skulls are skeletal
19:14:32 <CIA-81> 03doy * r8f597330601c 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-data.h mon-util.cc tilepick.cc): move wights to green 'z' (mantis 2327)
19:14:48 <blue_anna> http://nopaste.dk/p2383
19:15:18 <blue_anna> how do I get the mutable version of a monster from the actor* ?
19:15:34 <doy> what that means is
19:15:41 <doy> the pointer that you've been given has been declared const
19:15:49 <doy> so you can't call methods on it that'll modify it
19:15:59 <blue_anna> right
19:16:12 <doy> try dropping the const off at the beginning
19:16:28 <blue_anna> I tried, theres no conversion routine to go from const monsters* to monsters*
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19:16:37 <blue_anna> it comes in as const monster*
19:16:39 <blue_anna> monsters
19:16:52 <blue_anna> I started with that
19:17:22 <doy> well, what function is this in?
19:17:42 <blue_anna> int monsters::hurt(
19:17:54 <M-Kaibigan> Hoho
19:18:02 <M-Kaibigan> I understand all this!
19:18:06 <M-Kaibigan> Maybe I should dive the code!
19:18:20 <blue_anna> ^^
19:18:23 <doy> what that's saying is that things that call this function expect that it won't modify the actor passed in
19:18:26 <blue_anna> sure
19:18:36 <doy> so you should probably find out if that's a necessary expectation
19:18:37 <M-Kaibigan> Encapsulation right
19:18:48 <M-Kaibigan> doy: How clean is the code?
19:18:52 <M-Kaibigan> I there any documentation on it?
19:18:53 <doy> M-Kaibigan: heh
19:19:01 <M-Kaibigan> eg. How would one go about learning it
19:19:01 <blue_anna> M-Kaibigan, no docs
19:19:10 <blue_anna> pretty straightforward code
19:19:12 <M-Kaibigan> I guess I'll start at main.cc
19:19:19 <M-Kaibigan> And just like...
19:19:22 <M-Kaibigan> Scan over it
19:19:52 <blue_anna> M-Kaibigan, I'd start by trying to figure out how to implement some thing .. like a misc item -- "bauble of hello world". :P
19:20:19 <M-Kaibigan> I want to implement the spell idea I had
19:20:23 <M-Kaibigan> And some stuff for vampires
19:20:30 <M-Kaibigan> Locally ofcourse
19:20:42 <blue_anna> player-stuff is the most complicated part of the game.. but go for it
19:20:52 <M-Kaibigan> Just where do I get the code
19:20:54 <M-Kaibigan> Git?
19:21:00 <doy> ??source
19:21:01 <Henzell> source[1/4]: Browse the Git repository at http://crawl-ref.git.sourceforge.net/
19:21:03 <doy> ??source[2]
19:21:04 <Henzell> source[2/4]: For bleeding edge, it's on the "master" branch in {git}. For the stable branch, check out "stone_soup-0.5"
19:21:08 <doy> ??git
19:21:08 <Henzell> git[1/2]: git clone git://crawl-ref.git.sourceforge.net/gitroot/crawl-ref/crawl-ref
19:21:26 <blue_anna> source 2 should be brought forward a bit
19:21:31 <blue_anna> 0.5 cant be the last stable build :P
19:21:39 <M-Kaibigan> I keep telling myself only after I've won a few times
19:22:05 <doy> !learn edit source[2] s/0.5/0.7/
19:22:05 <Henzell> source[2/4]: For bleeding edge, it's on the "master" branch in {git}. For the stable branch, check out "stone_soup-0.7"
19:22:48 <blue_anna> doy, what that says is that actor* passes const monsters* when get the monster that way ... is there a way to get the monster from the actor* that is mutable?
19:23:10 <blue_anna> maybe from the position?
19:23:41 <doy> blue_anna: no, that's the whole point of 'const'
19:23:50 <doy> if you could just go around it, it'd be pointless
19:24:03 <blue_anna> bet I can
19:24:06 <blue_anna> ;)
19:24:10 <doy> but you shouldn't
19:24:19 <doy> i mean, const_cast exists if you're really desperate
19:24:23 <doy> but don't do that
19:24:25 <doy> because it's wrong
19:24:33 <jlewis> or c casts! woo, party
19:24:40 <doy> but don't do that
19:24:42 <doy> because it's wrong
19:24:43 <doy> d:
19:24:51 <jlewis> don't you just love const?
19:24:59 <blue_anna> for (monster_iterator mi(&actor); mi; ++mi) will find it
19:25:11 <doy> blue_anna: yes, but don't do that
19:25:23 <doy> you don't seem to be getting my point here
19:25:25 <doy> (:
19:25:29 <blue_anna> doy, well I need some way to damage this sucker
19:25:43 <blue_anna> this is damage reflected back at the monster from another monster with reflection
19:25:49 <doy> you can try removing the const from the parameter
19:25:53 <doy> and see if anything else breaks
19:26:10 <blue_anna> doy it refuses to cast, even static cast
19:26:40 <doy> no, don't cast thing
19:26:41 <doy> s
19:26:49 <doy> 19:25 <+doy> you can try removing the const from the parameter
19:26:49 <doy> 19:25 <+doy> and see if anything else breaks
19:26:49 <Zao> There's a particular cast for casting on/away const, and I'm not going to name it.
19:27:33 <blue_anna> doy, you mean like, the one on line 2 in the pastie I sent?
19:27:36 <blue_anna> that doesnt work either
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19:28:18 <doy> no, i mean the one that's a parameter
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19:33:00 <blue_anna> error: invalid initialization of non-const reference of type ‘monsters&’ from a temporary of type ‘const monsters*’  -- qq
19:34:20 <M-Kaibigan> Const and non const variables are completely different
19:34:23 <M-Kaibigan> eg. treat them as different types
19:38:30 <felirx> casting const away = sign of a bug
19:38:33 <felirx> or bad design
19:39:21 <Zao> You seem to have a pointer on the source type there.
19:40:03 <blue_anna> felirx, the design wants to only pass immutable references to the actual object behind a actor* .. so if you ever need to get the right one, you either have to find it from another index (but doy said dont do that) , or cast it
19:40:28 <doy> blue_anna: no, i said remove the const from the function parameter
19:41:33 <blue_anna> doy back when I said "I could iterate through the monsters until I found the one at the position of the actor .. thats when you said don't do that :D I casted it instead but felirx pointed out that if you need to cast away a constness you're probably not really needing the constness
19:41:53 <doy> 19:26 <+doy> 19:25 <+doy> you can try removing the const from the parameter
19:41:53 <doy> 19:26 <+doy> 19:25 <+doy> and see if anything else breaks
19:42:13 <blue_anna> doy, nonetheless, what I said stands
19:42:35 <blue_anna> I mean I _did_ cast it :)
19:43:03 <blue_anna> but that's the measure of casting versus getting the mutable another way
19:43:16 <doy> are you not understanding what i'm saying
19:43:18 <doy> i don't get it
19:43:44 <blue_anna> doy, :) it seems like you're reacting to someone else ...
19:43:58 <doy> blue_anna: i'm saying that if you're casting it, you're doing it wrong
19:44:01 <doy> and you should stop that
19:44:32 <blue_anna> remove it how?
19:44:38 <blue_anna> monsters* mon = const_cast<monsters*>(cmon);
19:44:45 <blue_anna> casting it _is_ removing it
19:45:15 <doy> no, it's not
19:45:24 <doy> look at the function parameter list
19:45:46 <doy> it says "const actor *agent" or something similar
19:45:51 <doy> change it to "actor *agent"
19:46:11 <doy> if const_cast appears anywhere in your patch, i will make sure it's rejected d:
19:46:11 <blue_anna> ooh, no doy! that s adifferent variable
19:46:36 <blue_anna> it is monster->hurt(actor, damage, beam, bool)
19:46:51 <blue_anna> the second actor I just leave alone :P
19:47:41 <blue_anna> doy, I can get rid of the const_cast .. but then I have to iterate through the LOS and get the monster the way felirx might jsut call the right way .. form another index
19:48:02 <doy> blue_anna: no, you don't
19:48:06 <doy> blue_anna: just nopaste the patch
19:48:13 <doy> so i can see what you're doing
19:48:21 <doy> and i'll tell you what to change
19:48:31 <blue_anna> doy, http://nopaste.dk/p2384
19:48:33 <blue_anna> please
19:48:41 <doy> that's not the patch
19:48:51 <blue_anna> no you want to change that
19:48:53 <blue_anna> so do it
19:48:59 <blue_anna> I'll copy and paste your changes
19:49:15 <doy> i want you to go up to the top of the function that contains those lines
19:49:26 <doy> and look for "const actor *agent"
19:49:26 <felirx> agent->as_monster() returns const*?
19:49:32 <doy> felirx: if agent is const, yes
19:49:41 <doy> blue_anna: and replace it with "actor *agent"
19:49:42 <blue_anna> felirx, yes
19:50:12 <blue_anna> doy, it comes _in_ as a const actor *agent
19:50:20 <felirx> virtual monsters* as_monster() = 0;
19:50:21 <blue_anna> I should change the function definition?
19:50:24 <doy> blue_anna: yes
19:50:31 <felirx> doesn't return const unless agent is const
19:50:36 <felirx> thus do what doy says
19:50:39 <blue_anna> doy then I have to hut down all the previous uses of the function :(
19:50:43 <blue_anna> *hunt
19:50:58 <doy> blue_anna: not necessarily, it's possible they were all passing in non-const things and the const wasn't actually necessary
19:51:08 <doy> since non-const -> const is implicit
19:51:29 <doy> if that's not true, then yes, you'll have to hunt down things in other parts of the code
19:51:31 <blue_anna> well shit
19:51:34 <blue_anna> I'lldo it but...
19:51:44 <blue_anna> I'd hate to be responsible for debugging the change a month from now
19:51:48 <doy> but using const_cast to be lazy about stuff like this isn't really acceptable
19:52:14 <doy> if we allowed that, we may as well not be using const at all
19:53:14 <doy> for instance
19:53:34 <blue_anna> doy,  it's blowing up in fixedvector.h ...
19:53:35 <doy> it's entirely possible that other parts of the code assume that the monster they pass in as agent there will still be alive after that call
19:54:03 <doy> if you just const_cast things away and go on with what you're doing, that could cause those other places to screw things up
19:54:08 <doy> that's why we mark things as const
19:54:47 <blue_anna> doy this is the hurt function .. like "apply damage to the monster
19:54:56 <blue_anna> if you assume its alive afterwards, tyou're doing somehting wrong :D
19:55:27 <blue_anna> I get your point, its just funny :)
19:55:47 <doy> blue_anna: no, 'agent' there is the monster that is doing the killing
19:55:55 <doy> it's quite reasonable to assume that it's still alive afterwards
19:56:57 <elliptic> doy: what if it kills a spore and dies in the explosion?
19:56:58 <doy> anyway, if you get any other errors that you're not sure about, feel free to ask(:
19:57:10 <blue_anna> doy, anyway it is blowing up the code not to cast it
19:57:14 <doy> elliptic: pretty sure the spore explosion is handled elsewhere
19:57:18 <doy> as a separate step
19:57:19 <elliptic> yeah, probably
19:57:22 <blue_anna> other places are passing in consts
19:57:51 <doy> blue_anna: yup, you're going to have to make sure those places aren't making any kinds of assumptions like that
19:58:20 <blue_anna> doy,come on now, you won't let me iterate through and get the mosnter from position instead?
19:58:40 <blue_anna> I have to change the structure of the whole class instead of just getting the mutable from a different index
19:59:29 <doy> blue_anna: did you not read anything i just said?
19:59:34 <doy> yes it takes work, but it's there for a reason
19:59:47 <doy> i'd rather not have to track a bug like this down in the future d:
20:00:33 <blue_anna> doy, the fact that it passes in a const says "hey, don't change this variable." but the fact that I can access an array of monsters from a different location and get mutables says "hey, you -can- change these"
20:01:14 <Zao> blue_anna: A completely idiot-proof type system is unfeasible in C++.
20:01:27 <blue_anna> shouldnt I be able to go with a best of breed approach, and assume that if the code is being so secure as to const the return val, it probably takes care that any place I can change things .. I aught to be able to?
20:02:02 <Zao> Just because the language and code structure happens to let you do something in a roundabout way doesn't mean you're intended to, or should.
20:02:25 <doy> blue_anna: you can access the monster_iterator from anywhere, therefore const is meaningless on any actor?
20:02:30 <doy> is that what you're saying?
20:02:30 <blue_anna> Zao, so you should handicap the programmers only so much as it is inconvenient? :D sorry, its just .. I dont think Im getting a fair shake here
20:02:45 <Eronarn> blue_anna: it's inconvenient to you
20:02:51 <Eronarn> it's very convenient to everyone else who will have to deal with your code
20:02:53 <Eronarn> for years to come
20:03:00 <blue_anna> Eronarn, and years past ;)
20:03:18 <Zao> When in doubt about a codebase, ask someone that knows about it, or find it out.
20:03:28 <Zao> If assumptions are made, document them clearly and make note of them in any patches.
20:03:40 <blue_anna> it still isnt sensible.. you want me to remove the const from a function declaration, where it has already made sense in the past
20:03:50 <Zao> I'd be scared shitless if I was hacking on a complex system like DCSS.
20:03:55 <doy> blue_anna: only after ensuring that it's valid in places where it's used
20:03:58 <blue_anna> in order to make changes to an object I can already access a different way
20:04:04 <doy> and handling those assumptions if it's not
20:04:06 <blue_anna> and make those changes without changing the class
20:04:23 <Zao> blue_anna: It has been written with the assumptions of everything that uses it that the function cannot modify the parameters directly.
20:04:25 <blue_anna> doy, only assuring that code is valid in the context of its use is not entirely a bad thing :D
20:04:33 <Zao> blue_anna: If you change it, you're responsible to find out what the callers assume.
20:05:02 <Zao> C++ lacks the language features to firewall code in the way you want.
20:05:19 <blue_anna> Zao, no it doesnt
20:05:39 <blue_anna> if the position array returned a constant I couldnt mute the immutable.
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20:06:04 <Zao> blue_anna: I'm not talking about this code in particular (which I haven't even seen).
20:06:49 <doy> blue_anna: this is only because the crawl codebase isn't perfectly designed
20:07:04 <doy> in an ideal world, the global position array wouldn't even exist
20:07:05 <blue_anna> Zao, yea okay. you dont like c++ .. I get it
20:07:27 <Zao> blue_anna: It's my primary language. As such, I'm familiar with its limitations and idioms.
20:07:28 <blue_anna> doy,  :) yea
20:07:32 <blue_anna> aint that the truth
20:07:33 <doy> but we're doing the best we can with what we have
20:07:41 <doy> and trying to make it better
20:09:26 <doy> blue_anna: so if you want to be able to damage the monster that's doing the damaging, you need to look through the rest of the codebase and make sure nothing else is assuming that the monster doing the damaging is still alive afterwards or anything like that
20:09:38 <blue_anna> doy I want a different alternative, because rewriting the class method is to me worse than const_cast'ing, it forces me to break a design practice that everyone uses when there are other alternatives
20:09:53 <doy> blue_anna: you're not quite understanding i think
20:10:01 <doy> assume you did just go pick the monster out of the global array
20:10:14 <doy> and somewhere else, something calls mon->hurt(foo, ...)
20:10:22 <doy> and then afterwards calls other methods on foo
20:10:30 <doy> those will now probably cause crawl to crash
20:10:38 <doy> if foo ends up dying from your code
20:10:55 <doy> that is what that const error is trying to tell you
20:11:27 <doy> and so you need to make sure that isn't the case
20:11:48 <doy> or if it is the case, wrap things in if (foo->alive()) or whatever is necessary
20:12:01 <doy> to make sure you're not introducing all kinds of hard to track down bugs by doing this
20:12:20 <doy> do you understand where i'm coming from?
20:12:45 <doy> the const is there to help you
20:12:56 <doy> it's not something that's just in the way and needs to be gotten around
20:13:22 <blue_anna> doy okay yea
20:13:43 <blue_anna> I guess I can leave in the code for everything but monsters hurting themselves.. I mean it works with ouch.cc for players already
20:13:54 <blue_anna> and I can move this code to mon-act and mon-cast and such
20:14:01 <blue_anna> and that way limit the scope of changes
20:14:08 <blue_anna> so Im not trying to chagne the whole world
20:19:21 <blue_anna> doy, I tell you what.. I'll do it as a cast. and you can file a bug ticket against the cast. let other people comment and suggest a fix, since it is really not just mine to deal with.
20:20:35 <blue_anna> doy, because if I change the class to accept a mutable actor, it will still break the code you are wanting to protect
20:20:47 <blue_anna> like all the spell code comes to mind, since Im working on that code
20:20:52 <due> icky
20:21:12 <due> instead of a cast
20:21:18 <due> try using monster_at(mon->pos())
20:21:32 <blue_anna> sure
20:21:37 <due> it's hideously hacky but not quite as hacky as casting away constness
20:22:37 <doy> it's hideously hacky and still has the potential to cause breakage
20:22:41 <doy> sigh
20:22:44 <due> yeah
20:22:50 <due> but it's slightly easier to track down.
20:22:54 <doy> not really
20:22:59 <doy> at least you can grep for const_cast
20:23:03 <due> hmm
20:23:07 <doy> monster_at has valid uses
20:23:27 <due> i was of the perhaps misinformed opinion that casting away constness is never good.
20:23:44 <doy> casting away constness *is* never good
20:24:16 <doy> but monster_at(mon->pos()) is effectively just casting away constness in a way that's more easily missed
20:24:21 <due> okay
20:24:31 <due> my knowledge of C++ is limited
20:24:42 <doy> really, i'd say to just leave it out if you don't want to actually fix it, but shrug
20:24:50 <doy> kinda tired of saying the same thing over and over again at this point
20:26:32 <blue_anna> thats cool :)
20:26:37 <blue_anna> monster_at()
20:26:54 <Zao> due: const_cast is "safe" whenever you're 100% sure that there's actually a proper non-const lvalue somewhere down the call chain.
20:26:58 <Zao> Doesn't mean that it's proper though :D
20:27:03 <due> hah
20:27:07 <due> i am goin~g to feed my cat
20:27:11 <due> before he breaks the door down and murders me
20:28:19 <doy> Zao: if that's the case, why not just remove the const?
20:28:34 <doy> i guess that's what the second statement meant
20:28:34 <doy> (:
20:29:08 <due> quite a few functions automatiically convert incoming parameters to const regardless of whether or not they need to be.
20:29:40 <doy> sure
20:30:07 <doy> but const is a good defaul
20:30:07 <doy> t
20:30:13 <due> yeah
20:41:14 <blackpenguin> round 1 of the uniques tourney is done. sums on the termcast channel, details http://paste.unfoog.de/view?id=1689 for now, going to create a webpage from this data soon
20:42:43 <Eronarn> this discussion is making me want to make a roguelike so i can make it unmaintainably complex and use that as the excuse why nobody else can even suggest features for it despite it being open source
20:43:32 <M-Kaibigan> I want to make on too :<
20:43:54 <doy> Eronarn: crawl already tried that
20:43:59 <doy> just attracted people like greensnark
20:44:00 <doy> (:
20:45:22 <Eronarn> terrifying!!
20:46:11 <Eronarn> sadly, i probably won't have time for any RL related coding for a good, oh, 4 years.
20:46:40 <doy> you say that now
20:46:53 <Eronarn> i will say it in all caps once grad school starts
20:47:12 <CIA-81> 03dolorous * rfbb8e6aa861f 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: Actually reorder wights in mon-data.h when save compatibility breaks.
20:47:30 <M-Kaibigan> Someone fix autoinscriptions for coagulated blood
20:47:31 <blue_anna> Eronarn, I'm kinda on the opposite end of that spectrum now :) I used to work in computers but a few years ago stopped.. now suddenly I can do things like write and .. maybe a little sadly, code :P
20:47:37 <blackpenguin> Eronarn: sometime we act against our own saying ;)
20:47:38 <due> M-Kaibigan: why?
20:48:04 <M-Kaibigan> Because it's broken
20:48:15 <due> so is a lot of stuff.
20:48:15 <doy> dolorous++ # fixing my laziness
20:48:34 <blue_anna> is that painful++ ??
20:48:37 <due> autoinscriptions aren't really a high priority.
20:48:57 <doy> M-Kaibigan: patches welcome!
20:49:00 <blue_anna> heh
20:49:23 <M-Kaibigan> I haven't dived the code nor will I do it soon
20:49:31 <Eronarn> "then it probably won't be fixed soon"
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20:52:00 <monky> A question for devs: how do you feel about alternative Zot:5 ending vaults?
20:53:47 <Eronarn> monky: people have tried, but nobody's succeeded
20:54:01 <Eronarn> (i am not a dev, though, nor do i know the history of alternate zots in full)
20:54:25 <doy> nothing against them specifically
20:54:44 <doy> but they are going to be held to quite a bit higher of a standard than most other vault submissions
20:55:16 <blue_anna> neat
20:55:39 <blue_anna> deep dwarfs range in xp from 125ish (the default ones) to 1375ish (the "unborn")
20:55:41 <doy> specifically, the difficulty of all zot:5 vaults really needs to be pretty close to the same
20:55:48 <doy> blue_anna: that sounds pretty reasonable
20:56:21 <monky> I've just been toying around with the idea of an alternative orb chamber dipping a bit into the big block of stone near the enterance
20:57:16 <doy> monky: well, feel free to submit something
20:57:24 <doy> i'm sure you'll get plenty of feedback(:
20:57:47 <monky> well it's probably not up to snuff yet, but feedback is certainly nice
20:58:06 <due> so long as it can snuff the player easily
20:58:08 <due> we're cool
21:01:36 <Eronarn> monky: probably the most important consideration after balance is flavor - there's only one zot vault right now, so any deviation from it is a big deal, unlike e.g. crypt where there's multiple versions of it already
21:02:01 <Eronarn> istr someone wanted to add oklobs to their zot5 at one point
21:02:14 <Eronarn> this would be jarring compared to current zot
21:02:28 <monky> at the moment the only different bit is the orb chamber, which dips in a bit and ended up looking a bit like a rabbit's head
21:03:44 <Zannick> i can't even imagine trying to make a new zot5 vault
21:03:56 <Zannick> i would have to be comfortable making other vaults and maps first
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21:11:01 <blue_anna> mpr("It reflected your damage back at you!"); -- is this a good message for monsters mirroring damage back at the player ?
21:14:23 <M-Kaibigan> The damage was mirrored!
21:14:24 <M-Kaibigan> Is better
21:14:35 <M-Kaibigan> eg. You hit the DD. The damage is mirrored!
21:14:38 <M-Kaibigan> So, is
21:14:41 <M-Kaibigan> is mirrored
21:14:54 <M-Kaibigan> Maybe?
21:15:05 <blue_anna> sure :)
21:15:33 <blue_anna> just to show it in context:
21:15:37 <M-Kaibigan> The damage is mirrored back!
21:15:37 <blue_anna> this is how it is currently
21:15:39 <blue_anna> Helpless, the deep dwarf unborn fails to dodge your attack.
21:15:39 <blue_anna> The deep dwarf unborn fails to defend itself.
21:15:39 <blue_anna> You hit the deep dwarf unborn. It reflected your damage back at you!
21:15:51 <M-Kaibigan> I don't like the word 'your'
21:15:55 <M-Kaibigan> Too personal you know
21:16:12 <M-Kaibigan> And it would mean allies that attack them need something else
21:16:20 <blue_anna> well it uses the 2nd person pronoun in the dodge message just above :P
21:16:25 <blue_anna> but I hear you
21:16:29 <blue_anna> I'll change it
21:16:40 <M-Kaibigan> So as long as it's something that doesn't give a target, it'd work
21:16:42 <due> 'your' is perfectly acceptable.
21:16:51 <blue_anna> M-Kaibigan, I dont have it do anything when other creatures get mirrored dmage
21:16:58 <blue_anna> they dont't have a console :P
21:17:15 <M-Kaibigan> Cover the allies too D:
21:17:35 <M-Kaibigan> It's just your is always used when it's a player action
21:17:39 <M-Kaibigan> This is something done by the monster
21:18:18 <M-Kaibigan> Just, using 'it' when we already know what it is is clumsy
21:18:30 <OG17> "unborn?"
21:18:35 <OG17> are you fighting fetuses?
21:18:49 <blue_anna> ok
21:18:54 <M-Kaibigan> So, "Your attack is reflected."
21:18:54 <blue_anna> M-Kaibigan, look at that sample log .. the name of the creature is on the same line as "It"
21:19:07 <blue_anna> OG17, ^^ I thought that before
21:19:11 <M-Kaibigan> Yeah, that's why it's clumsy though ^- ^
21:19:17 <monky> fetuses of yred?
21:19:28 <OG17> yred is pro-life
21:19:33 <M-Kaibigan> Oh wait no
21:19:33 <blue_anna> no those are death knights
21:19:36 <M-Kaibigan> I know why it's bad
21:19:41 <M-Kaibigan> It's because you're mixing tenses
21:19:46 <M-Kaibigan> "You hit the deep dwarf
21:19:48 <M-Kaibigan> "It reflected
21:19:50 <blue_anna> I was toying with the idea of "spawn" .. but I went with death knight
21:19:53 <M-Kaibigan> It should be present tense
21:20:00 <M-Kaibigan> So, It reflects your damage back at you, would be fine
21:20:04 <blue_anna> M-Kaibigan, that is true!
21:20:06 <M-Kaibigan> Don't mix tenses1
21:20:08 <M-Kaibigan> :)
21:20:09 <monky> Death knight sounds fine to me
21:20:21 <M-Kaibigan> Unborn sounds young
21:20:24 <M-Kaibigan> And unpowerful
21:20:27 <OG17> yes
21:21:06 <monky> unborn sounds miscarried
21:21:08 <blue_anna> the unborn are the 1300-some xp deep dwarfs :)
21:21:59 <Zannick> why not call them death knights if they're death knights?
21:22:06 <M-Kaibigan> Call them death knights
21:22:22 <blue_anna> no the death knights are different :)
21:22:23 <blue_anna> I have both
21:22:27 <monky> then what are unborn
21:22:28 <OG17> then death lords
21:22:36 <M-Kaibigan> Why unborn
21:22:38 <monky> and why are they called unborn ;_;
21:22:40 <monky> yeah
21:22:41 <blue_anna> I dont want to say
21:22:49 <monky> surprise?
21:22:51 <M-Kaibigan> Heh
21:22:55 <blue_anna> it ties in, but .. you should get the pleasure of finding out at a console
21:22:58 <M-Kaibigan> Maybe they are fetus'
21:23:04 <M-Kaibigan> And appear as commas
21:23:05 <M-Kaibigan> ,
21:23:06 <M-Kaibigan> Lol
21:23:15 <OG17> they're old orb guardian tiles
21:23:18 <M-Kaibigan> That would be pretty scary actually
21:23:40 <blue_anna> lol .. the fetus hits you for 20! With it's umbilical cord!
21:24:01 <due> *its
21:24:12 <doy> i liked the old orb guardian tiles
21:24:16 <due> me too
21:24:17 <doy> suitably creepy
21:24:17 <due> they made me hungry
21:24:19 <M-Kaibigan> Deep dwarf fetuses are really small right
21:24:20 <due> like jelly babies
21:24:35 <Zannick> what were the old tiles?
21:24:42 <monky> I'm curious too
21:24:46 <blue_anna> the only thing directly dealing with children I was toying with doing is mylings
21:24:49 <M-Kaibigan> Me too
21:25:19 <M-Kaibigan> There need to be more creepy demons
21:25:39 <blue_anna> mylings are the ghosts of abandoned children .. like Lloron's in hispanic folklore
21:25:41 <Zannick> like a demon with an unmarked white van?
21:25:44 <blue_anna> Lloronas
21:25:57 <Zannick> giving candy to kids
21:26:20 <blue_anna> but if it brings this out of people maybe I just leave that out
21:26:23 <blue_anna> ;)
21:26:31 <OG17> http://crawl-ref.git.sourceforge.net/git/gitweb.cgi?p=crawl-ref/crawl-ref;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/rltiles/UNUSED/monsters/orb_guardian.png;h=75940cc8105a43ceeb729a896389ddc74a6cf6ce;hb=master
21:26:37 <OG17> that's a pretty url
21:26:45 <due> blue_anna: ignore the people without a +, they're just hangers-on
21:27:00 <OG17> my + is in the wash
21:27:11 <Zannick> my + is in the mail
21:27:13 <due> you dno't have a + OG17
21:27:16 <due> if anything you have a -
21:27:16 <Zannick> so they tell me
21:27:23 <OG17> a - is half a +
21:27:38 <due> would you like a boot instead?
21:27:49 <OG17> no
21:27:57 <due> :p
21:28:12 <M-Kaibigan> That
21:28:13 <M-Kaibigan> Is
21:28:14 <M-Kaibigan> Creppy
21:29:30 <Zannick> oh, i was thinking tile as eg. "purple X"
21:30:03 <blue_anna> wow summon undead is a lot toughter than haunt
21:30:18 <CIA-81> 03doy * r1c1d2d6013b5 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mgen_enum.h mon-pick.cc mon-place.cc): enable elephant generation in D and Lair (with bands)
21:30:42 <doy> i may have placed them too deep, we'll have to see
21:30:45 <due> YAY ELEPHANTS
21:30:51 * due hugs doy and dances around and kisses etc.
21:33:20 <kilobyte> due: what's the state of the holyhaul?  Is anything broken (as opposed to simply unimplemented)?  I'm pondering remaking Francis as a paladin, and that would be easier with a partial merge.
21:33:32 <M-Kaibigan> Is the holy haul getting a holy branch
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21:34:24 <kilobyte> M-Kaibigan: we're not there yet, for now only the set of monsters is in the making
21:34:28 <M-Kaibigan> I see
21:34:42 <due> kilobyte: nothing should be broken
21:35:38 <OG17> why keep the "francis" name?  It just adds confusion
21:36:00 <doy> OG17: dpeg and mu at least like it
21:36:04 <Eronarn> mmm, holy monsters
21:36:06 <Zannick> we already have francis anyway; he who used to be wayne
21:36:11 <due> kilobyte: but i haven't looked at ti recently
21:36:17 <doy> and i think paladin v demon lord for francis/frances would be pretty fun
21:36:27 <due> i agree
21:36:27 * M-Kaibigan is confused.
21:36:27 <nrook> yeah, I like that contrast
21:36:32 <Zannick> ?? francis
21:36:32 <Henzell> francis[1/1]: A wandering demon-summoning Romeo, looking for Frances. Spells: pain, summon demon, smite, animate dead, abjuration, and healing.
21:36:33 <doy> Zannick: well, kilobyte's thing would include reverting wayne back
21:36:33 <OG17> I guess
21:36:41 * due supports this
21:36:41 <Zannick> aha
21:36:53 <due> kilobyte: feel free to merge it back into master
21:37:00 <due> kilobyte: it's probably a better idea as that way people will do work on it :D
21:37:03 <doy> what all is implemented in holyhaul?
21:37:05 <M-Kaibigan> ??frances
21:37:05 <Henzell> frances[1/1]: A stout warrior, bearing a deep facial scar. She has the same spells as orc high priests, which are pain, summon demon, smite, animate dead, and healing.  Dances with Francis.
21:37:08 <kilobyte> due: is there some other name you'd propose for Wayne?
21:37:15 <Eronarn> no way
21:37:17 <Eronarn> we have dwarves now
21:37:24 <Eronarn> just bring back wayne but as a dwarf
21:37:26 <due> kilobyte: something from Beowulf, I'd suggest
21:37:30 <due> Eronarn: Wayne is a dwarf
21:37:35 <doy> Eronarn: that's already been done, back in 0.7
21:37:39 <Eronarn> oh, neat
21:37:40 <Eronarn> i missed that
21:37:40 <kilobyte> MD, not DD
21:37:42 <OG17> Zannick, that francis flavor isn't actually anywhere in-game, he was some sort of doctor/scientist
21:37:47 <due> Eronarn: get with the program
21:37:58 <Eronarn> due: i am getting with the program. the academic program. :P
21:38:00 <Zannick> of course :)
21:38:04 <due> Hrothgar?
21:38:08 <Zannick> henzell is just a little out of date
21:38:10 <Zannick> wulfgar?
21:38:14 <due> Ooh
21:38:17 <due> Wiglaf!
21:38:20 <due> It's similar to Wayne.
21:38:27 <Zannick> yes!
21:38:47 <OG17> wayne is a good name
21:39:35 <due> Wayne is an annoying name.
21:40:06 <doy> hmmm, you know
21:40:29 <doy> i think i'll fix up the serpent of hell a bit
21:40:35 <doy> no reason to limit it to gehenna
21:41:27 <kilobyte> per the recent thread on c-r-d, make it the holy sacred serpent scourge of hell
21:41:29 <doy> generate it as an ice dragon in coc, iron dragon in dis, shadow dragon in tar, that sort of thing
21:41:34 <doy> heh
21:42:00 <st_> the description of it says "He" now for some reason
21:42:05 <kilobyte> (suggestions for the holy scourge welcome)
21:42:23 <kilobyte> st_: uniques are by default male
21:42:30 <doy> st_: good catch
21:42:40 <due> you have to specify neutrals
21:42:53 <st_> also has "A the Serpent of Hell"
21:43:27 <st_> huh, so does the royal jelly's desc
21:43:35 <doy> st_: yes, that's a separate bug
21:43:41 <doy> that handling was broken recently
21:43:53 <doy> https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2447
21:44:23 <due> considering i fixed it in the first place i cry :(
21:44:25 <kilobyte> due: could you explain to me if referring to humans by "it" is correct in English -- I do feel it's definitely not.  But I'm probably biased by Polish, where that is not merely incorrect, but would make people stop, fail to parse the sentence at all and try to look at text half a page away.
21:44:49 <due> kilobyte: It's... weird.
21:44:59 <kilobyte> I mean, we say: "A human.  It is confused."
21:45:03 <due> That's fine.
21:45:34 <CIA-81> 03doy * ra2bb1efcf102 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-util.cc: use 'it' for serpent of hell (clouded)
21:45:46 <due> I mean, it's not perfectly correct, but it's a suitable way to get around the gender pronoun issue.
21:46:03 <doy> that wouldn't really be fine if you were talking about a person in real life
21:46:15 <due> Well, yeah.
21:46:19 <doy> but in the game context, you kind of just stick in 'monster' as the antecedent
21:47:21 <doy> you might use 'it' if you were also referring to people as 'humans'
21:47:22 <doy> (:
21:47:52 <kilobyte> "a [hell] knight, it blah blah"
21:49:14 <M-Kaibigan> Human is impersonal so
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21:49:16 <doy> i don't know, it doesn't feel incorrect, and i think that's mostly because it's in the context of the game
21:49:17 <M-Kaibigan> It is fine there
21:49:33 <CIA-81> 03dolorous * r1eba6114b6a2 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-util.cc: Treat flaming corpses as humanoid-shaped, since they were adventurers.
21:52:35 <blue_anna> right now monster exp is modified by spells they can cast if they match certain spells
21:52:48 <kilobyte> yeah
21:53:08 <blue_anna> I'l like to change it so that, no matter what the spell is (excepting the ones in that list already), you get some modified bonus based on the level of the spell
21:53:28 <blue_anna> like I was aobut to add SUMMON_UNDEAD, and HAUNT is already in there ..
21:53:31 <kilobyte> some spells are way more dangerous than others
21:53:31 <blue_anna> they're both lvl 7 spells
21:53:37 <blue_anna> if anything summon undead is the worse one
21:53:52 <blue_anna> it just never got added
21:54:02 <doy> i'd be careful about touching the xp formula like that
21:54:16 <doy> probably better to just use xp_mod on individual monsters for now
21:54:49 <kilobyte> no one cares about teleport other, or iron shot on low-HD stuff, but banishment or torment do massive damage
21:54:51 <doy> messing with the formula has the potential to through balance completely out of whack in places like elf
21:55:00 <doy> *throw
21:55:13 <kilobyte> agree
21:56:06 <doy> the xp formula should be redone at some point in the future, but it's going to require a pretty serious amount of in-depth analysis
21:56:07 <blue_anna> hmm
21:56:33 <blue_anna> alright I wont do it
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22:17:47 <Ashenzari> Fedhas reacts inconsistently for tree destruction (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2457) by OG17
22:21:13 <M-Kaibigan> I guess I'll grab the source when I get my new computah
22:21:21 <M-Kaibigan> And start setting up visual studio
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