00:04:21 nice work on the unrands 00:06:02 one relevant 0.6 change that may have made the bug more apparent is that you.unique_items is rolled back after level veto 00:06:50 but I guess there was never an official release between that offending line and 0.6? 00:07:00 I don't think so 00:07:18 but that is interesting 00:07:29 implying that level veto had something to do with reduced unrand placement? 00:08:32 by: I first noticed weird fixedart stuff in 0.7 trunk 00:08:50 and it was very apparent then so I doubt it existed long before then 00:09:11 due: I don't think there's a major effect, but probably some? 00:09:26 i added the you.unique_items because i thought the lack of it was an oversight 00:09:35 say if morg is generated very often, it's also quite likely to be generated on a vetoed level, after which it would never have appeared? 00:09:57 I do believe that the roll-back is correct 00:10:03 yes 00:10:05 exactly 00:10:25 so previously the chances of morg generating were a combination of a) the chances of it generating, and b) the chances of the level it generated on NOT being vetoed. 00:10:33 yes 00:11:08 whereas now it's just the straight a) option, as b) doesn't come into it. 00:11:19 right 00:11:22 (and b) should never come into it, in my opinion) 00:11:27 definitely 00:11:32 but wouldn't that be true of other fixedarts, too? 00:11:38 any fixedart 00:11:44 i was just using morg as by's example 00:11:51 elliptic: yes 00:12:07 it doesn't sound like that vetoing would have any effect on the frequencies to me 00:12:14 it would 00:12:17 veto frequency is massive 00:12:29 just on total number of unrands 00:12:41 but you are also generating other fixedarts on the vetoed level 00:13:05 so relative frequencies shouldn't be affected, no? 00:13:07 i'd say that roughly 3 or 4 in 5 levels generated is vetoed. 00:13:10 but if total number of unrands had been hugely increased by the change (don't believe so) it would have made the weird distribution more apparent 00:13:22 we have added a new number of unrands recently 00:13:47 there would be an effect assuming that games used to run out of unrands to generate 00:14:12 elliptic: vetoing is extremely common 00:14:31 by: yeah, could affect total number of unrands 00:14:45 definitely some artefact generation stats would be good to have 00:14:54 hm 00:15:03 it shouldn't be too difficult... get an output whenever an artefact is generated 00:15:12 run level generation a few thousand times with varying level numbers 00:17:57 -!- slyshy has joined ##crawl-dev 00:18:35 greensnark: Is there any reason why ssh, http, and telnet are all timing out on CAO, but I can still ping it successfully? :/ 00:19:38 because someone's closed down all the ports? 00:19:58 I'm not having any issues myself. 00:20:06 i'm still connected 00:20:07 Seems like other people are connecting fine. 00:20:23 My game suddenly cut out, though, and I haven't been able to reconnect. 00:20:29 Hm. 00:20:35 Did you somehow get blacklisted? 00:20:55 I'm wondering about that. I don't know how I would check. 00:31:12 03by * r459b7f23bf3f 10/crawl-ref/source/artefact.cc: Fix broken unrand specialness determination. (rwbarton, #2360) 00:31:14 -!- Hehfiel has quit [*.net *.split] 00:31:14 -!- CIA-81 has quit [*.net *.split] 00:31:15 -!- felirx has quit [*.net *.split] 00:31:15 -!- Siber has quit [*.net *.split] 00:31:15 -!- paxed has quit [*.net *.split] 00:32:28 -!- Hehfiel has joined ##crawl-dev 00:32:28 -!- CIA-81 has joined ##crawl-dev 00:32:28 -!- Siber has joined ##crawl-dev 00:32:28 -!- felirx has joined ##crawl-dev 00:32:28 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 00:34:56 Welcome back. 00:37:49 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:46:59 thank you, due ;) 00:47:01 Moin! 01:04:53 -!- Siber has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:07:40 -!- slyshy has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:10:02 -!- Siber has joined ##crawl-dev 01:12:17 -!- Hehfiel has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:14:28 -!- Hehfiel has joined ##crawl-dev 01:47:54 -!- Zannick has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:17:30 -!- ZanniqlcKzxkq has joined ##crawl-dev 02:17:53 -!- ZanniqlcKzxkq is now known as Zannick 02:26:06 Warn when monster enchantment is about to end (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2362) by b0rsuk 02:37:44 hm 02:37:49 "You are a herbivore." 02:38:02 should be "You are an herbivore.", no? 02:39:39 no 02:39:49 wtf? stupid americans. 02:39:52 the "h" is not silent. 02:40:03 this is not france! 02:41:16 :< 02:48:36 what about "The spell is powerful enough to literally pull someone out of the Death's Door..." 02:48:47 as opposed to "...out of Death's Door"? 02:49:15 is that also a thing of a dialect i wasn't raised to speak? 02:50:33 which spell is that? 02:50:39 borgnjor's 02:52:09 I like the subtle defamation that america is like france ^_^ 02:52:35 * Zannick sleep and not worry 03:04:40 are there many french crawl players? 03:04:56 je ne sais pas 03:05:27 bhaak: no, i was implying that people are trying to pronounce english like it was french. 03:06:48 -!- Zannick has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:07:18 -!- Zannick has joined ##crawl-dev 03:09:16 due: that's no surprise, English being a ghastly accident between Norman French and Old High German :) 03:10:19 yes, anglo-saxon is more german than english is 03:10:47 I googled quickly and it seems there are people pronouncing herbivore without an h but the online dictionary entries didn't specify locations (wiktionary ONLY has erbivore as pronounciation but who trusts wiktionary?) 03:11:48 Moin guys 03:12:14 Zannick: that Death's Door message was written by a dirty polack, so don't assume it to be correct 03:15:36 dzien dobry! 03:15:51 Gesundheit! 03:36:25 -!- eyhung has joined ##crawl-dev 03:49:23 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 03:58:44 -!- mruuuu has joined ##crawl-dev 04:07:31 bhaak: As a Brit, the first two syllables of "herbivore" are pronounced similarly to the anthropomorphic VW Beetle in the Disney films 04:19:41 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 04:36:48 fail = n message when casting extension (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2363) by galehar 04:36:48 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:39:12 -!- Textmode has quit [*.net *.split] 04:39:13 -!- st_ has quit [*.net *.split] 04:39:13 -!- philsnow_ has quit [*.net *.split] 04:39:14 -!- phyphor has quit [*.net *.split] 04:40:41 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:40:41 -!- philsnow_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:40:41 -!- phyphor has joined ##crawl-dev 04:40:50 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 05:03:18 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:28:16 -!- Textmode has quit [Quit: Over the ages, man has been certain of a great many things. some of these things were even true.] 05:34:43 -!- casmith789 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:39:32 -!- casmith789 has joined ##crawl-dev 05:59:16 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 06:05:23 Cheers 06:06:38 evening ploogy 06:07:00 Gotta win or kill off my DD today... 06:07:30 :( Why? 06:07:50 only seven days left in the tournament :) 06:07:52 @whereis dpeg 06:07:53 dpeg the Champion of Chaos (L14 DDCK), a worshipper of Makhleb, saved on Hive:2 on 2010-08-22 after 23218 turns. 06:07:55 true 06:08:04 And I am unable to win Sprint... 06:08:21 I wanna win sprint just to say I did 06:08:39 dpeg: why? 06:09:06 by: I don't feel like casting in Sprint, and that's too hard a challenge with the modifications they made to the map :) 06:09:43 berserkers should be winnable 06:10:13 or what also works is a needle-using SpAs of okawaru 06:10:35 fucking 06:10:51 does that unrand specialness commit affect the generation rates 06:11:21 syllogism: it shouldn't as long as the game doesn't run out of unrands 06:12:01 due: fucking? 06:15:51 forgot the human has berserk :) 06:15:53 !lg sprint 06:15:53 No games for sprint. 06:15:56 !lg . sprint 06:15:57 300. bookofjude the Conjurer (L5 DECj), worshipper of Sif Muna, mangled by a human (a cursed -2,+0 club) in Sprint (Sprint III: "The Ten Rune Challenge") on 2010-08-24, with 320 points after 632 turns and 0:02:34. 06:16:13 due: only one of them, I think 06:16:24 enough of them ;) 06:16:27 -!- Amonchakad has joined ##crawl-dev 06:16:39 the water elemental is new :) 06:17:14 the water elemental is fucking nasty 06:23:11 Hello there; when are we getting the development build updated on the main site? 06:23:31 never 06:23:35 it's diy forevermore 06:23:40 quoth the dpraveng 06:24:00 Jozef and Josef got me again :( 06:24:09 Orcs got me 06:24:14 Hm. diy as in, there's another way to get it? 06:24:22 Amonchakad: you can build it yourself, sure 06:24:41 Amonchakad: there probably haven't been any changes 06:24:59 dpeg: despite brothers? 06:27:51 by: should've called one in advance, yes 06:49:41 you should do as much of lair as you can before venturing to that area 06:49:47 which may not be much though 06:50:19 and those wandering mushrooms can humiliate berserkers :P 06:50:34 yeah :) 06:50:36 maybe trog's hand helps 06:51:05 sometimes you get a good wand from the ghoul and a wand of disintegration from Orc 06:51:20 you can lure the mushrooms away from the water though, then they've been no trouble for me 06:51:25 true 06:51:47 the spriggan defenders on the other hand seem kind of brokenly overpowered 06:52:43 they've only hd 5 so any spellcaster can easily deal with them. Berserkers unfortunately have to pretty much get lucky with bia 06:53:05 or just hope the door is still closed 07:00:09 does it always say "The door mysteriously vanishes" when a jelly eats a door 07:00:18 or only when it happens to enter your los on that very turn 07:03:13 the latter 07:03:26 by: yes, I accept that the spriggans have been beefed up to deal with melee fighters. But the way they're now... 07:18:23 made it to the shops without seeing the defenders 07:19:25 I got a TrBe which got one rune & got to the shops easily, beat the defenders easily enough, but a lot of stuff was already awake. Plus no jewellery shop meant that I had no sInv in my game which is needed really. 07:19:35 s/got/just played/ 07:19:43 no jewellery shop here either 07:22:26 where do you really need see invisible? 07:23:01 by: I just died to the unseen horror :/ 07:23:24 with a troll? 07:23:32 yeah 07:24:01 I've found it easy to lure them to the smoke, or did you not have some? 07:24:32 I am too stupid for tricks like this :) 07:24:32 when you have to take out invis monsters 07:24:35 eg frederick 07:25:11 there's some everywhere around frederick. Sure you can't use bia very well but berserk works 07:25:14 smoke 07:25:23 or make him stand in water 07:25:25 he was in vaults 07:25:29 he'd walked out 07:25:39 ie the first area of vaults 07:25:40 near blade 07:26:23 -!- Amonchakad has quit [Quit: When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net] 07:26:38 Using smoke/water is something that never occurred to me. Didn't exist when I started playing. 07:26:45 <--- is a crawling fossil. 07:27:26 ?immolation made have helped as well 07:27:38 against frederick? 07:27:48 against unseen 07:27:49 horror 07:39:20 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 07:47:38 syllogism: how's your piety 07:53:52 the needles are ridiculously strong 07:54:06 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 07:54:25 when you get them :p 07:55:08 the elemental statues seem to reliably abjure my brothers 07:55:39 hope you have invis 07:56:59 it's pretty annoying i can't evoke invisibility with my randart and then switch it away 08:01:50 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 08:19:51 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 08:25:48 good morning 08:26:30 Hi 08:27:47 blue_anna: I will make some comments on the dwarf branch. Please don't be upset... you are free to do what you want, but you can increase the chances of making the dwarf branch come from your vision if you build on what's been thought out so far (which you're not familiar with, I realise). 08:28:04 no please its great what OG17 wrote, please comment! 08:28:25 gives me some idea 08:28:45 right now I'm trying tos eperate the two patches for rod use and dwarves ... and tunedwarves a bit 08:28:48 @?? mennas 08:28:48 Mennas (15A) | Speed: 15 | HD: 19 | Health: 150 | AC/EV: 15/28 | Damage: 30, 20 | Flags: 08holy, see invisible, fly, !sil | Res: 06magic(202), 10elec++, 03poison | XP: 6578 | Sp: confuse, silence, minor healing. 08:28:55 that ev is a bit high 08:29:07 i can't hit him unarmed 08:29:17 in monsters.cc there's a monsters::skill defined -- it returns 0 for all skills except for MH_UNDEAD and SK_NECROMANCY 08:29:49 I've been manually calculating skill based on hit_dice .. but I'd like to reform that function and use it 08:30:12 @? orb of fire 08:30:12 orb of fire (05*) | Speed: 20 | HD: 30 | Health: 150 | AC/EV: 20/20 | Flags: 11non-living, see invisible, lev, !sil | Res: 13magic(immune), 04hellfire+++, 02cold, 10elec++, 09poison+++ | XP: 11717 | Sp: b.fire (3d40), polymorph other, fireball (3d43). 08:30:14 but I'm not sure -- why wpould it return 0 normally 08:30:18 @? gloorx vloq 08:30:19 Gloorx Vloq (15&) | Speed: 20 | HD: 16 | Health: 350 | AC/EV: 10/10 | Damage: 45 | Flags: 05demonic, evil, see invisible, lev, !sil | Res: 06magic(298), 02cold, 10elec++, 03poison | XP: 15000 | Sp: poison arrow (3d23), miasma (3d13), torment symbol, b.draining (3d20), dispel undead (3d25), invisibility. 08:30:23 orb of fire is evil! 08:30:24 @? ereshkigal 08:30:24 Ereshkigal (16&) | Speed: 14 | HD: 18 | Health: 250 | AC/EV: 10/30 | Damage: 40 | Flags: 05demonic, evil, see invisible, !sil | Res: 06magic(240), 02cold, 10elec++, 03poison | XP: 14085 | Sp: b.draining (3d22), b.cold (3d27), greater demon, torment symbol, paralyse, minor healing. 08:30:49 does berserk(might) help with to-hit, btw? it feels like it does sometimes 08:31:04 @?spriggan defender 08:31:04 spriggan defender (08i) | Speed: 16 | HD: 15 | Health: 35-54 | AC/EV: 3/30 | Damage: 30 | Flags: see invisible | Res: 06magic(140) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 1578. 08:31:52 I wasn't particularly lucky with that TrBe and got three runes 08:31:59 so it's pretty doable 08:32:26 well the end is the hardest part 08:32:37 you can berserk most things 08:32:46 and hopefully have some piety for bia 08:34:16 it always feels like it's easier to get to ****** initially than it is after you drop below it once 08:35:35 yeah, it does 08:36:27 casmith789: why? 08:36:39 to which statement? 08:36:53 i feel that way about piety in regular crawl with every god too :p 08:36:59 the end is the hardest part because there are the hardest monsters there and you are almost certainly underpowered 08:37:17 Mu_: yes, wasn't talking about sprint 08:38:44 heh, crawl lets me rest next to a hellion plant when misled 08:39:59 i should have played TrHu 08:40:19 it's a lot easier 08:40:28 though you could pick up some throwing skill anyway 08:41:57 now you just need some enchant weapon scrolls for those paralyse needles 08:43:17 Mu was supposed to put some guaranteed ones but he like put them in Hell :P 08:44:22 i'll know better if i ever make another one :p 08:45:17 you can still tweak it a bit for the official release 08:46:32 ok 08:46:35 by: hey, I also do Hu. The large rocks rock. 08:47:07 Mu_: yes, balance tweaks of existing maps are always welcome. 08:47:08 you'll also get all sorts of needles once you get a blowgun 08:47:21 Future new players will try all Sprints they'll get their hands on. 08:48:21 biggest complaints are shops being too random and spriggans being overpowered i think? oh and the statues 08:48:36 spriggans can be dealt with however 08:48:47 monster abjuration needs to be an actual spell 08:48:47 hey, let me invite comments, please, -- no coding skills are necessary just for this page -- https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:dwarf_hall_of_fallen_heros 08:49:20 syllogism, I just implimented SPELL_VAMPIRIC_DRAINING on my copy of the source 08:49:49 syllogism, but I'm not really clear on how to iterate through the creatures visible to a creature, in order to make that spell meaningful 08:50:12 ** to make abjuration meaningful 08:50:50 abjuration is implemented, it's just that it's linked to monster summoning spells 08:51:00 so every summoner gets it and you can't give it separately 08:51:46 blue_anna: will comment later :) 08:52:03 Mu_: maybe best to ask for comments after the tourney 09:03:13 Berserk should not cause glow (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2364) by nrook 09:03:29 I'm going to stop coding now and try to get a second win for the tourney :P 09:04:02 !lg ktype=winning 09:04:03 1. BlueAnna the Swashbuckler (L26 DSSt), worshipper of Okawaru, escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2010-08-15, with 1203285 points after 157102 turns and 17:11:11. 09:04:06 I'm not very good 09:04:08 :D 09:05:02 blue_anna: if you're able to win, you're good. 09:05:21 Trust me on this one: we conducted a poll last year. 09:05:21 ^^ ty 09:05:57 majority of the playerbase that answered the poll hadn't found the first rune iirc 09:06:03 yes 09:06:21 I was surprised... also, they were not at all just new players. 09:06:30 Some of them were not getting their first rune for years. 09:07:29 I think the first couple hundred games I couldnt get past lvl 12 09:07:41 almost a sign we need more low-level content 09:07:56 blue_anna: we added a lot low level content! 09:08:04 :) 09:08:06 pre-orc 09:08:06 (But yes, that's something we derived from the poll.) 09:08:29 blue_anna: the early portal vaults are intended to make the game more interesting for players who'll not get reliably to Lair. 09:08:41 yea :) 09:08:44 sewer, ossuary -- anything else? 09:09:01 pre-lair baileys are fun 09:09:06 ah 09:09:24 I got two in one game once 09:09:34 elliptic: conquered both? 09:09:36 was so strong once I got to lair... 09:09:42 L15 :) 09:09:46 elliptic: you're the man :) 09:10:15 There are some problems with portal vaults. I made a wiki page about it =) 09:10:22 elliptic: how many potions of experience? 09:10:27 two 09:10:39 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:10:48 I got six once... 09:11:11 XL 16 character with no skills plays a bit strangely 09:11:34 lol 09:12:25 oh, hm, maybe I just was level 13 entering lair in the game I was thinking of 09:12:32 and maybe just one exp potion 09:12:37 !log . hatm 09:12:38 4. elliptic, XL24 HaTm, T:56195: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/0.7/elliptic/morgue-elliptic-20100812-161219.txt 09:12:54 entering zig at L15 was fun though :) 09:13:16 long macros should be interrupted when monsters come in sight (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2365) by galehar 09:13:21 was that on a streak? 09:13:27 no 09:20:02 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 09:21:19 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Client Quit] 09:21:39 -!- Cryp71c_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:21:39 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 09:21:54 -!- Cryp71c_ has quit [Client Quit] 09:37:14 by: I think the six !xp are not possible anymore. 09:40:09 yes, fixed that bug 09:49:23 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:51:40 by: Johanna mentioned a good idea recently: you remember the inventory cursor [-] that you removed? It is good that it's not visible by default. But what about making it appear as soon as the player uses the cursor-keys (. and ')? 09:52:01 sure 09:52:18 it was just the easiest thing to do quickly before release 09:52:36 yes, I agree 09:52:51 just saying that the above idea seems like a perfect solution: no options and toggles necessary 09:53:44 if I remember correctly another idea that was generally liked was to have the cursor mark some "currently selected item" instead of "item that .' work on" 09:54:28 then . would mean select current item and move cursor to next 09:54:38 by: yes, that's a separate issue. If the cursor is enabled, it's probably better to show it on [current item] rather than [next item]. 09:54:43 by: exactly 09:55:01 by: if you could do this, I'd be grateful. Otherwise, I'll add a comment to the wiki page =) 09:55:05 at least that's closer to how other user interfaces do that kind of thing 09:55:36 I'd rather not: I tried doing something more extensive for 0.7 and got quite stuck on the current code 09:55:52 -!- daftfad has joined ##crawl-dev 09:55:56 by: sure 09:56:04 it felt to me like this should go in hand with a rewrite of the inventory menu system with something like felirx' menus 09:56:13 perhaps I can convince jpeg to do that 09:56:18 -!- ortoslon has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:56:50 yes, please 09:56:58 we really really really need to unify our menu handling 09:57:10 this is not about unified menus 09:57:45 well, hopefully it would move toward that goal? 09:57:46 (: 10:00:10 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 10:03:02 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:03:14 doy: not really. Sorry. 10:03:34 equipped shield invisible on '%' screen (black text on black bg) (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2366) by daftfad 10:06:15 somebody should a human-interface-guideline-documentation for crawl developer :) 10:08:21 bhaak: for example, a Nethack developer? :) 10:08:25 -!- Anym has joined ##crawl-dev 10:08:36 bhaak: Guten Tag auch! 10:08:44 dpeg: Moinmoin 10:09:01 Crawl 10:09:16 's interface is far from ideal, but at least developers are aware of it and try to improve matters! 10:09:23 (I know that's also true for Un.) 10:10:23 dpeg: I don't know if nethack developers would be a good choice. I get flames because I changed #loot to automatically loot to the only sensible object/monster around/under the player: "the command doesn't work always the same!" 10:10:45 "the command doesn't work always the same!" is a common complaint of mine about the crawl interface also 10:10:53 e.g. I can't check what food I have with e if I'm engorged 10:10:59 bhaak: so if there's only one chest, there'd be no prompt? Sounds good to me. 10:11:23 rwbarton: would you rather have the prompt in case there's only one edible item? 10:11:26 dpeg: yes. although I implemented an invisible option for those poor bot writers 10:12:07 rwbarton: this may not hold for eating from inventory, but in general, prompts are Evil. 10:12:07 I'm mostly talking about the item selection menu 10:12:22 I can handle the difference between e and e? depending on whether I have default food to eat 10:12:37 and sometimes nethack commands are ridicously overloaded. e.g. you can also #loot a rideable monster to take of its saddle :/ 10:12:41 rwbarton: if you have specific proposals --> interface wiki please. 10:13:19 bhaak: when I played NH, I was unhappy that some commands are so obscure: #rub and the like. 10:14:45 my only specific proposal is that when you're engorged, e should still ask you what to eat and only tell you "You're too full to eat that!" after you select 10:15:03 I imagine this sounds really strange if you don't generally want to use e to check on your food in inventory 10:15:23 yeah, i frequently try and do that as well 10:15:30 dpeg: my pet peeve in that regards is the difference between apply/invoke. the UI can help a lot with the obscure commands. I never had problems on the amiga as the commands are shown as menus 10:16:50 bhaak: no no, I was sad that these commands were _so_ obscure. I wanted them to have more functionality. (This is backwards, I know by now.) 10:17:15 oh, that was when you were still a n00b :) 10:23:35 Argh, subvaults and portal vaults aren't quite mixing gracefully. :/ Namely, I think it complains if I place an exit_portal_vault into a subvault, since it's not a portal vault (and doesn't know it's going to be used in a portal vault). 10:26:39 I like fewer prompts, but consistency in prompts is better than a command sometimes prompting and sometimes not. 10:26:59 If the command is inconsistent, then the case where prompts are shown should be the *unusual* case, not the most common case 10:27:12 This is why I don't like the current 'z' 10:27:30 The unusual case of a monster not being targetable gets no prompt, so I feed targeting keystrokes to Crawl as commands 10:27:48 greensnark: but you said the same thing about the new 'c'hop command. 10:27:58 dpeg: Yes, but I clarified my point 10:28:06 'c'hop prompt is the unusual case, which is fine 10:28:13 ah, I see 10:28:51 I can learn from that. 10:29:56 greensnark: So a "There is nothing in reach. Do you want to target anyway? (y/n)" would improve matters for you? 10:30:19 dpeg: Not really, I just use Z :) 10:30:32 'Z' is fine 10:30:33 in principle 10:30:40 I am trying to understand design. 10:30:49 Well, I like 'Z's behaviour of always showing the targeting prompt better 10:31:27 Having to cancel out of a different do-you-really-want-to-aim-at-nothing prompt sounds a little worse than just adding that info to the targeting prompt 10:32:39 I also think how frequently the command is used matters 10:33:07 For instance, I'm always surprised by the extra confirmation in the shop interface, but I buy stuff so rarely it doesn't bother me 10:33:15 I always use Z 10:33:16 Too few shops :P 10:33:18 and never use z 10:33:24 same here 10:33:39 Z has plenty of legitimate uses also 10:33:58 greensnark: Would it be tough to allow exit_portal_vault in subvaults for portal vaults? 10:34:02 in addition, with circular ranges it's quite helpful to see exactly how much closer I have to get to a monster to target it 10:34:06 (with square ranges I could just count) 10:36:44 There are also players who make use of z, though. It's a complicated world. 10:37:00 Also, it will be good to have two keys for casting, no matter what. 10:39:07 I'm assuming it's not easy. The subvault doesn't know it's going to be in a portal vault. The subvault handles it's own glyph substitutions, so it can't delegate it to the portal vault map. 10:39:34 Keskitalo: Sounds like you have to do the portal marker in the subvault 10:39:59 Maybe a new tag that tells a vault that it's a subvault for a portal vault, so it allows exit_portal_vault? 10:40:27 The feature is not being allowed? 10:40:41 That just sounds like an unnecessary check in that case 10:40:47 Should just kill the code that checks for that 10:41:01 Yeah, that's the he problem. (Let me double-check actually..) 10:41:42 okay, work done, time to get back to the blue anna 10:42:41 greensnark: Ah, I was mistaken, that does work. Phew! 10:42:48 dpeg, why is it good to have two keys for casting? 10:43:24 Zaba: z = quietly chanting, Z = SCREAM MAGIC AT YOUR ENEMIES UNTIL THEY FALL DOWN 10:43:31 EVEN IF THEY'RE NOT THERE 10:43:48 I wouldn't like such a game element :P 10:44:57 i wouldn't in crawl, but it would be fun in other roguelikes - e.g., in GURPS, the better you know a spell, the less wild your body movements have to be to cast it (until eventually you can do it just by thinking) 10:45:18 would work much better in a less combat focused game thoguh 10:45:55 -!- nrook has joined ##crawl-dev 10:47:55 I'm leafing through the fifth edition of Ars Magica, and it seems to have that too. 10:48:22 -!- daftfad has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:48:32 Argh, I should test the console version too, but I need to compile ;_; 10:48:54 Zaba: because casting is so important in the game, so having two keys will be useful 10:49:10 for example, the other key could be [repeat the spell with the same target] 10:49:24 why not have two keys for eating? You will die if you don't eat :> 10:49:29 ` repeats things, no? 10:49:35 Note how firing also comes with two keys (f/F) -- and some more even (Q,(,)) 10:50:27 personally, I tend to use z for casting, because I'm lazy :P 10:50:42 and of course it backfires at me all the time :P 10:50:59 macro z to Z 10:51:07 I play well with z, but I don't play as fast as these teenagers :) 10:51:10 effort... 10:51:35 ~mzZ 10:51:37 ~s 10:51:37 done 10:51:42 Zaba: yes, it would clearly work for eating too. Eat, EAT ANGRILY. 10:51:56 Eat noisily :) 10:52:20 'eatt', assuming there's food in inventory slot on 'a' 10:53:19 [e]at, [d]ine (requires non-chunk food, tablecloth, proper ambient lighting) 10:54:11 [C]hew Cud command for when we make yaktaurs playable 10:54:22 Or yaks even 10:54:29 I had a proposal for a yak species once 10:54:37 It could chew cud, stampede, etc. 10:54:53 And presumably it would be very very attractive to other yaks in the dungeon 10:55:01 would they still be hostile? 10:55:25 I guess it depends on how you hit it off 10:56:37 Here we go: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.roguelike.misc/msg/c05defbf9daf516e?dmode=source 10:57:09 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:57:24 yaktaur race would be fun if other yaktaurs were allied with you :) 10:57:39 since they show up for such a wide range of the dungeon 10:57:46 and are reasonably tough 10:58:00 Friendly yaktaurs are amazing 10:58:08 Main reason shadow creatures is so awesome in Vaults 10:58:09 but that idea exists in some way already wih orcs 10:58:48 dpeg: Did you see my yak proposal link? It was soon after that post that Tina went off into a sulk again :) 10:58:55 how much was ammo mulching toned down? 10:59:13 dpeg: no, with beogh - different :) 10:59:20 that's a god ability, not a racial one 11:00:04 given how the god is specific to the race, I'd say it's close enough 11:00:42 i just want to fight alongside my herd, is that too much to ask :( 11:00:59 Llama as a playable species 11:01:05 Spit attack, naturally 11:01:08