00:00:52 -!- stabwound_ has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 01:05:53 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=61779.0 01:07:36 -!- stabwound has quit [Changing host] 01:07:36 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 01:12:08 -!- stabwound has left ##crawl-dev 01:40:54 -!- Nexos has joined ##crawl-dev 01:41:13 Vampiric weapon gives warning message on unwield (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2212) by Nexos 01:56:18 Make possible to avoid auo-marking god gifts as such (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2213) by Nexos 02:10:51 !tell greensnark How feasible would it be for the Sequell DB to get a field "streak" (number of consecutive wins before this) 02:10:51 by: OK, I'll let greensnark know. 02:13:43 !tell greensnark It obviously can't be written by crawl, but just looking at the previous game (prev game win ? prev streak + 1 : 0) 02:13:43 by: OK, I'll let greensnark know. 02:40:12 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 02:41:15 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 02:56:37 Goor morning! 02:56:43 Whatever that means. 02:57:10 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 02:59:31 goo morning, Keskitalo. 02:59:33 * due covers Keskitalo in goo. 03:02:05 due: Moved away from the TrHe I see? 03:02:28 due: I got the jungle book ending again, did I already tell you it's awesome? 03:04:25 Keskitalo: Perhaps you did, but you can say it as many times as you like! 03:04:53 please update windows builds 03:05:32 last build crashed randomly and i want to know if that has been accidentally fixed :) 03:08:16 Will do unless due is already on it? 03:08:56 My hotel wifi too slow 03:09:00 So feel free, Keskitalo 03:09:36 Traveling? I'm using a library wifi from home. :P (It's next door) 03:09:47 Hehe. 03:10:50 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 03:22:02 ortoslon: it's quite unlikely to have been fixed 03:23:19 Ah yes, it has the cloud->crash bug. 03:31:55 -!- purge has joined ##crawl-dev 03:34:21 by: What's the german for happy birthday? 03:39:58 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 03:41:52 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:44:12 "Herzlichen Gl"uckwunsch zum Geburtstag" 03:48:49 ortoslon: Builds done, crashes likely not fixed though :) 03:54:34 ah so it's a known bug 04:00:43 -!- purge has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:00:58 !tell dpeg Good work on the Orb run page! It's a great read now :) 04:00:58 Keskitalo: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 04:10:53 by: acquire more fruit! 04:11:57 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:12:26 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:19:52 -!- Moriasc has joined ##crawl-dev 04:20:41 -!- ortoslon has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:31:04 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:31:30 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Disconnected by services] 04:31:36 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 04:36:29 if you need codenames for next version, I suggest "saippuakivikauppias". it's a palindrome, and could be translated "soup stone dealer", thus, almost being "stone soup dealer"!! 04:37:10 Adeon, I support it! 04:38:06 you mean soap? :P 04:38:12 Adeon: +1 04:38:13 oh yeah 04:38:13 soap 04:38:26 greensnark should love that 04:38:43 And I do too :) 04:39:45 you can fix it by renaming crawl stone soup to crawl soap stone 04:45:33 True 04:45:35 But we don't 04:45:37 *won't 04:47:17 -!- OG17 has quit [Quit: OG17] 04:48:24 German Joey's OgVM/Ely post on SA is great: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3332877&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=26#post380651418 04:48:34 Someone else pacifying than me ;_; <3 04:51:54 * due TrHe? 04:52:33 Did you pacify a lot? Did you find it useful? 04:53:03 TrHe is excellent. 04:53:07 I just kept dying to my own stupidity. 04:53:07 !lg 04:53:08 1315. bookofjude the Grave Robber (L5 SpNe), blasted by an orc wizard (puff of flame) on D:3 on 2010-08-04, with 211 points after 5635 turns and 0:11:20. 04:56:52 by: I suppose you need the corpses for food, but Reproduction doesn't cost any piety 05:05:46 !lg * killer=menkaure 05:05:46 614. Milgwyn the Charm-Maker (L5 SpEn), slain by Menkaure on D:4 on 2010-08-07, with 391 points after 4407 turns and 0:25:31. 05:05:53 Googo team menkaure 05:06:22 by: nooo 05:06:25 at least you didn't lose piety :) 05:08:46 syllogism: where should I put an oklob? 05:09:19 oh, never used reproduction 05:09:42 by: I suppose you don't really need one and they are better in groups 05:21:11 the trouble is I don't really need a god 05:21:36 I'll do a proper fedhas game some time 05:23:56 as long as you fill zot 5 with oklobs, it's a proper fedhas game 05:24:03 will do 05:27:45 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 05:31:09 -!- Nexos has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:33:43 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 05:33:54 !won greensnark t 05:33:55 dpeg: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 05:33:55 greensnark (t) has not won in 4 games. 05:33:59 !messages 05:33:59 (1/1) Keskitalo said (1h 33m 1s ago): Good work on the Orb run page! It's a great read now :) 05:34:04 !messages 05:34:04 No messages for dpeg. 05:37:55 hi dpeg 05:48:22 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:50:27 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:51:36 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 05:54:18 -!- MarvinPA__ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:54:39 -!- MarvinPA_ has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:56:33 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:56:42 -!- MarvinPA__ is now known as MarvinPA 05:56:44 -!- OG17 has joined ##crawl-dev 06:20:16 Hi due! 06:20:58 hi 06:21:42 so many interesting ideas out there 06:22:37 !seen greensnark 06:22:42 I last saw greensnark at Sat Aug 7 11:20:35 2010 UTC (2m 6s ago) saying Per-player game numbers would also be nice on ##crawl. 06:27:04 -!- Gretell has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:27:11 -!- Gretell has joined ##crawl-dev 06:28:55 -!- Gretell has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:29:07 -!- Gretell has joined ##crawl-dev 06:34:34 Kind of fun to do Hive, Ice Form for rPois - I'm hoping portalizing Hive will introduce a lot of exciting situations. 06:35:50 Not that it wasn't trivial with Evaporate. :P 06:36:23 Keskitalo: yes, it will become better 06:36:34 !lm dpeg 06:36:35 3430. [2010-08-06] dpeg the Axe Maniac (L25 MDFi) found the Orb of Zot! (Zot:5) 06:36:38 just need a dedicated coder -- enough ideas are there imo 06:36:40 @whereis dpeg 06:36:40 dpeg the Cudgeler (L3 DDCK), a worshipper of Makhleb, is currently on D:3 after 1917 turns. 06:36:44 go go go! 06:38:26 !whereis 06:38:52 bookofjude the Grave Robber (L2 SpNe) is currently on D:2 after 2603 turns. 06:40:09 Sigmund on D:2, yay :) 06:40:16 Go due go! 06:46:44 dpeg: z/Z distinction for Fulsome Distillation is really good, it prevents me from casting it by accident but allows dancing :) 06:47:03 I also like how Ctrl+f shows the level, it has saved me from many unnecessary trips 06:47:13 by unnecessary I mean accidental 06:47:20 Keskitalo: I think the z/Z is in general quite good. Lemuel made a remark on that in a recent FR. 06:47:21 and I like it for seeing the level too 06:47:51 dpeg: Yeah, I find it useful. I often use Z 06:48:23 ghost kill in a sewer! 06:48:55 dpeg: Should we make the other sewers harder, like minmay_sewer_w ?:) 06:50:51 Keskitalo: the one with the frogs? 06:51:44 -!- Ekaterin has joined ##crawl-dev 06:51:51 Yeah, I hear it forces you to fight them in water, which is something I removed from one of my own vaults (should really look at w again though) - people here did voice appreciation for w though 06:52:05 -!- flowsnake has joined ##crawl-dev 06:52:07 I just called for the frogs 06:52:11 I put an esacpe near the frogs in my own frog Sewers 06:52:14 and I used Makhleb 06:52:41 Oh, shouted them to come near you? That's a good tactic :) 06:52:59 i slinged them :P 06:53:01 it doesn't work in minmay_sewer_w 06:53:14 by: what doesn't work? 06:53:18 shouting 06:53:48 well, you can shout, but you can't use that to move the battle to advantageous terrain 06:54:09 but you can just turn back if you know the threat 06:54:17 cholesterol aubergine orb guardian! 06:54:19 no, but you can make sure you're on floor rather than water 06:54:28 in minmay_sewer_w? how? 06:54:43 !lm . br.enter=sewer 06:54:43 21. [2010-08-04] rob the Skirmisher (L4 DGCr) entered a Sewer on turn 2519. (D:4) 06:54:49 !lm . br.enter=sewer -tv:>$ 06:54:50 21. rob, XL4 DGCr, T:2519 (milestone) requested for FooTV. 06:56:23 by: check my sewer run (current game) 06:56:33 the wasn't minmay_sewer_w 06:57:05 right? minimay_sewer_w is on tv now 06:57:11 I'll tell you when it gets interesting 06:58:28 it is a different sewer, I apologise 07:03:42 dpeg: now comes the tricky part 07:04:10 in that cupboard, are there often potions of lev? that would make it easier (I know there are in other sewers) 07:04:33 -!- Nexos has joined ##crawl-dev 07:06:45 !lm . br.enter=sewer -tv:cancel 07:06:46 21. rob, XL4 DGCr, T:2519 (milestone) cancel requested for FooTV. 07:07:01 casmith789: I think they're random 07:07:12 ah, in all sewers? 07:07:19 no idea 07:07:37 there's a sewer which is unconnected and random quaffing the potions I get before always produces lev 07:07:53 where always = 2/2 times, so it isn't certain 07:08:46 anyway that sewer is an advertisment for projected noise 07:10:45 -!- Anym has joined ##crawl-dev 07:13:53 was new noise system implemented? 07:14:02 joy, orc castle. 07:20:41 -!- pointless_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:24:13 so I can either pack now or go to bed 07:24:23 I vote for... neither! yay 07:24:31 sleeping owns 07:26:10 -!- Anym has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716]] 07:33:52 -!- Nexos has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:35:49 ortoslon: That is a good question :) 07:36:35 by: The "if you know the layout, you know to turn back" is quite spoilery, especially as it's more threatening than the other layouts. 07:37:44 the same is true for a lot of branch ends 07:38:13 anything that can be learnt by dying once to it is fine, isn't it? 07:38:31 definitely 07:39:22 like "ziggurats aren't larger troves" :P 07:44:03 we need to add twenty pan lords per trove! 07:44:52 but otherwise, the first several levels of a Zig are just that -- loot and popcorn monsters 07:45:19 and then whoops, Zig:10 and ten pan lords firestorming your ass 07:50:47 03Keskitalo * re91631d09701 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/portals/sewer.des: Sort and annotate sewer.des, also adjust weights. 07:51:35 No nerfing :) (unless you count weights) I made the Purgy maps a little more common. 07:54:49 is it intentional that submerging monsters trying to attack you submerge, then stay submerged until you walk adjacent to them? 07:55:17 Probably not. It's silly. 08:03:54 Submerged monsters are not annoying anymore, but now they're too timid. 08:05:19 is the current behaviour by design? 08:05:29 yes 08:05:39 but it should have gotten one more itereration 08:09:27 my implementation of the new behaviour was quick and dirty, such quirks are mostly accidental rather than coming from intentional design 08:09:54 the main goal was to get rid of the insane annoyance, which worked out 08:10:01 so amphibious monsters like alligators behaving weird when they come upon water is silly, yeah 08:10:49 yes 08:13:46 the things I find weird are: you can drag fish to the short by walking one step forwards two backwards; monsters will still flee away from you which I thought they shouldn't 08:13:52 s/short/shore/ 08:15:05 exactly 08:15:17 submerged monsters also seem to not move, they should 08:15:20 yeah, this is a problem, you often need to do that to kill them 08:22:34 monster ai with respect to clouds could see some improvements 08:23:25 it is not fair that monsters killed by summoned allies give the half xp (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2214) by rubyless 08:23:56 the living beejesus 08:25:02 not an English speaker.. 08:25:24 I'll close. 08:25:27 (and reply) 08:25:48 oh sorry, feel free to reply also if you like 08:26:19 I would like to suggest that the FR handling be moved entirely to the wiki, what do you think? 08:27:41 there's such a high part of useless FRs, be it because they're redundant or nobody acts on them 08:28:06 by: how to do it? 08:28:18 a general "ideas" wiki page? 08:28:23 by: No problem :) 08:28:37 by: Sounds pretty good to me! 08:28:54 If I subscribe to a wiki page I end up getting 20 e-mails about someone reformatting their comments (and no real changes taking place) 08:28:56 dpeg: perhaps; most of the FRs could be sorted into the existing feedback/brainstorming hierarchy 08:29:45 currently what happens is somebody files an FR, there's a lot of more or less useless discussion, and that it just rots until someone closes it and maybe moves the basic idea to the wiki 08:29:50 pointless_: Yes.. I direct wiki, mantis and commit mails to their own folders, which lessens the pain. 08:30:16 compare that to subscribing to a Mantis issue, where I tend to get e-mail only when something actually happens 08:30:18 I don't think that much useful input is coming in through the FR part of mantis 08:31:04 by: I think there is. 08:31:23 We will get ideas of the type "could be done, but probably won't ever" no matter which forum we offer 08:32:03 but on the wiki they'd automatically be in context, and it would cut down on the endless discussion threads 08:33:04 by: you would use Mantis only as a bug tracker and for ready-to-implement proposalsß 08:33:42 we could do that, yes; name the latter "implementation request" and allow only developers to file them 08:33:59 that would have some appeal 08:34:09 aye 08:34:10 should discuss via mail in the team? 08:34:37 ok 08:34:45 However, I think it's easier to close a misguided FR than to clean up someone's misguided comment somewhere in the wiki. 08:34:57 So I think a "FR wiki" page could help, imo. 08:35:08 "If you don't know where to put your idea, use this place." 08:35:20 that would certainly be a good idea, yes 08:35:49 by: would you send the mail? It's your idea. I'd support it. Should also include Napking in the mail. 08:36:45 alright 08:37:14 thank you! 08:38:56 in general, it seems to be difficult to get general input while allowing people with more valuable opinions more weight 08:40:09 yes 08:40:16 a basic problem of democracy 08:41:18 when you announce the change, link to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RycwYRcm3Lc :P 08:41:29 I agree re: closing an FR vs. cleaning comments, the latter is more difficult (but necessary to keep the wiki usable). But it does feel like a wiki where you need to do that is better than rotting tracker items .. 08:41:57 Well we could just have a policy of closing FRs after N months 08:42:32 pointless_: the problem is that many contain usable ideas which would have to be moved to somewhere else. I did that a lot on the SF tracker, and it's quite some work. 08:44:06 Compared to cleaning wiki comments when the primary feedback mechanism becomes the wiki? 08:46:06 Now I'm undecided again :) 08:47:09 sadly, 90% of everything is junk -- and that doesn't change whether it is on mantis or on the wiki 08:47:25 that way at least mantis can be used properly for bug tracking 08:47:38 and to make things harder, it's not obvious which 90% part -- as most ideas are appealing to some 08:47:44 well you can filter bugs only 08:47:51 but that's work 08:47:52 You can't have a brainstorm without a few people getting wet, I say. 08:48:07 I say mantis isn't for brainstorming 08:48:31 by: Do I need to quote which part of the discussion that applies to? 08:49:02 ? 08:49:16 >>90% of everything is junk -- and that doesn't change whether it is on mantis or on the wiki 08:49:30 mantis is better at preserving attributions and order of the discussion, but otherwise, the wiki does brainstorms better 08:49:33 I'm also pretty sure FRs such as 2214 would not be "filed" as often on a brainstorm wiki 08:51:28 kilobyte: yes, but order of discussion is something that's rather a hinderance IMO 08:51:39 (preserving the order of discussion) 08:52:26 it's better to have rejected ideas in a section at the end, possibly with summary rebuttals 08:52:43 good idea 08:53:00 currently, we hardly ever dare to say "no" 08:53:02 that was his second FR about the topic by the way 08:54:49 he may have a point -- the amount of exp in a given branch is relatively constant so summoners end up getting much weaker; but for now, the current way is IMO better 08:55:04 and that's the problem -- almost any FR has _some_ point 08:56:23 but not almost any FR is useful in terms of input vs. admin work ratio 08:57:06 right, but users don't know that 08:57:29 they wouldn't report things if they didn't believe their report was good 08:58:22 that's why there shouldn't be such a painless way to submit random ideas :) 08:59:12 syllogism: Thanks for picking that up (same issue twice) 08:59:25 so you are proposing instituting a poll fee for submitting FRs? 08:59:49 restrict proposal making privileges to landed gentry imo 08:59:49 no, I'm proposing to disallow submitting FRs to mantis 08:59:56 just making a joke 09:00:43 anyway what it comes down to is, you want to raise the barrier to entry for submitting ideas 09:00:54 (have to edit the wiki instead of just filing a FR) 09:01:02 I'm less sure that a general "random idea wiki page" is a good idea -- people should spend the time to find the appropriate page, be forced to read a bit on the general topic 09:01:11 pointless_: yes 09:02:08 if ##crawl-dev weren't on freenode, you could link to a custom mibbit widget from the homepage so that people could easily discuss an idea with devs before submitting it 09:02:41 that would make ##crawl-dev that much more useful... 09:02:47 ##crawl-dev is not a particularly good place to discuss ideas because 1/2 the time no one is online or paying attention 09:02:51 alas 09:02:54 aren't there many WWW irc clients? And yeah, what by said. 09:04:08 the mantis FR stuff could work better if we spent more time on it, but a) we don't and b) I doubt it would be a good investment 09:05:11 because wiki is already filled with three versions' worth of good ready ideas? 09:12:50 I am in touch with Keskitalo to sort _that_ out. 09:14:20 i meant future versions, not past versions :) 09:15:53 I know 09:17:14 so is it two fruit an oklob in general with fedhas, or is there something else to do with fruit? 09:17:28 later 09:17:32 by: yes, there is more 09:17:34 ballistos 09:17:37 and we devs already code our own projects rather than random FRs, for the most part 09:17:43 ballistos don't use fruit 09:17:53 you can make oklobs or use growth 09:18:09 -!- Ekaterin has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:18:48 I worked mostly off the wanted 0.7 features list around the start of 0.7 09:19:17 !tell due I ran out of a wizlab because it was scary (there were demons) 09:19:18 pointless_: OK, I'll let due know. 09:22:24 (that we have wanted version feature lists makes even the "implementation request" of mantis seem questionable) 09:27:20 pointless_: Sorry for spamming the Summonings page. :) 09:27:31 Keskitalo: it was mostly studioMK 09:27:48 Yeah, I'm replying to him/her :P 09:28:09 He edits his own entries a lot 09:28:59 I wish ey was more terse, especially when basically saying "you suck! do it like this!" 09:29:23 well if you have genuine feelings about crawl as a roleplaying platform I guess you just have to express yourself 09:32:27 nice, a fuse blew :P 09:35:00 roleplaying in crawl? lol 09:36:48 (also a lightbulb exploded) 09:40:03 hyperactive ballistos cost fruit, no? 09:40:15 no, just piety (a fair amount of it) 09:40:29 also spores probably shouldnt be polyable 09:40:39 huh 09:40:42 that's true 09:40:55 you can get oklobs with some luck 09:41:02 low hp oklobs though 09:41:14 yes, I suppose the same applies to wandering mushrooms 09:41:18 if you make spores non-polyable, please make them stab-killable 09:42:08 poly is considered hostile/not based on intelligence right now, correct? 09:42:46 Maybe the thing to do is make friendly plants/fungi poly into neutral ones 09:45:04 polying oklobs/wandering mushrooms gives penance 09:45:08 polying plants doesnt do anything 09:45:22 but spores don't give penance? 09:45:26 no 09:45:33 that's odd 09:46:09 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:47:43 by: they are going to kill your plants, I've tried it :( 09:48:17 you should just pull them up first and make oklobs once the guards are dead 09:48:30 I've got so much fruit, I think I can afford a bit of experimentation :) 09:48:38 yes, and it's easier to pull them up now 09:48:42 since only two can come up at once 09:48:46 -!- Ekaterin has joined ##crawl-dev 09:49:20 did the plants heal 09:49:43 didn't check before, but I guess so 09:50:04 pulling the guards up is so cheesy :( 09:50:38 I suppose they shouldn't follow 09:51:25 kilobyte: when planning future versions, I always tried to steer the ship somewhere... of course, if a coder has his own agenda, that's almost always perfect. 09:53:52 by: don't forget you can turn corpses into spores 09:54:26 that would help downstairs only, right? 09:55:54 no corpses around to turn into spores 09:56:17 fedhas doesn't shield you from spore explosions 09:56:22 protects your food though 10:01:38 syllogism: have you tried oklobs in tomb? 10:01:58 i tried them on tomb 3 in wizmode 10:02:26 as long as you stair scum summons away when necessary, they easily clear it for you 10:03:09 i thought we blocked gold from showing up in troves 10:03:13 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:03:24 just found almost 4k gold in a trove that had an entry cost of like 2k 10:03:59 i think by said he found 9+k 10:16:19 doy: in master you can't pay anymore, so it's not that stupid 10:29:35 -!- Nexos has joined ##crawl-dev 10:35:20 ah, right, that does help 10:35:33 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 10:35:38 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:47:10 -!- ortoslon has quit [Quit: bye] 10:51:43 -!- Eronarn has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:53:31 -!- Eronarn has joined ##crawl-dev 10:54:15 fedhas placement info broken with messages_at_top (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2215) by rob 10:59:40 -!- Zannick has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:02:58 wish rock worms would flee into solid rock, instead of sitting on the wall, interfering with auto-explore 11:06:56 -!- Zannick has joined ##crawl-dev 11:06:59 --> FR 11:07:08 -!- Ekaterin has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:16:47 this game looks quite good 11:16:52 I guess DDCK is overpowered :) 11:19:20 yes, DD is broken 11:19:27 by: sigh 11:19:32 my species :/ 11:20:13 by: do you think they can be balanced? 11:20:57 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 11:21:23 that would probably require disallowing all cheap forms of healing 11:21:39 somehow glow just corroded my gear (and told me that the acid burns), this is a bug? 11:21:44 i.e. from gods? 11:22:05 dpeg: I don't know: trog's healing seems expensive enough 11:22:46 you probably didn't even have to recharge wands, right? even use them? 11:23:50 vampiric weapons, vampiric draining are also cheap 11:24:40 but I don't know -- so many discussions about balancing DD were had in the past without good solutions 11:25:06 @whereis dpeg 11:25:06 dpeg the Champion of Chaos (L12 DDCK), a worshipper of Makhleb, saved on D:10 on 2010-08-07 after 17563 turns. 11:25:21 heavy armour I guess? 11:26:04 now imagine you have vampiric draining and revivification in addition (i.e., DDNe of Makhleb) 11:28:13 by: yes, another heavy armour guy. 11:28:26 I have used !HW so far (8 I think). 11:28:57 We could simply make DD's Ne significantly worse. 11:31:57 that would only balance out DDNe, and not all of DD 11:32:20 aptitude changes would not be too significant I think 11:38:46 DD is good because of its healing, however try a DD without Ely/Makhleb/Trog/Vampiric weapon and it's much harder 11:52:42 by: I think that Makhleb healing for DD is actually okay. Is Vamp Draining even stronger? 11:54:07 dpeg: better early game, worse late game 11:54:40 vampiric draining encourages tedious play more strongly (i.e, healing from some parked monsters) 11:55:09 by: that also holds for Makhleb healing 11:55:16 maybe less strongly 11:55:22 no, makhleb healing you have to kill things 11:55:29 I thought makhleb was overpowered enough that that isn't necessary 11:55:32 yes, could be weak, parked monsters 11:55:46 they have low hd 11:55:50 by: you think M is overpowered? For DD, or in general? 11:55:52 and therefore will hardly heal you 11:56:12 I played a DD of Sif some time (I think) that kept snails around in the lair for "convenient" healing 11:56:23 !lg . dd win s=char 11:56:24 5 games for by (dd win): 1x DDBe, 1x DDHe, 1x DDCK, 1x DDTh, 1x DDEE 11:56:31 !log . ddee 11:56:32 6. rob, XL9 DDEE, T:11053: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/rob/morgue-rob-20091203-195415.txt 11:56:51 !log . ddee win 11:56:52 1. rob, XL27 DDEE, T:94883: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/rob/morgue-rob-20090623-132133.txt 11:56:55 you dont even have to kill the snails 11:57:06 you can just let them regen and drain some more 11:57:12 that's not it 11:57:16 yes, that's what I did 11:57:19 syllogism: ouch, that's like farming 11:57:29 gotta do something about it 11:57:44 you don't need that tactic for dd if you go makhleb 11:58:04 that issue is like Vp in general 11:59:31 -!- Xiberia has joined ##crawl-dev 12:00:00 -!- thermo is now known as thermoplyae 12:00:12 there must be a decent solution out there 12:01:06 farming like that isn't really necessary though 12:01:11 unless your character is really weak 12:01:50 for any character with the only way of healing requiring monsters, there is bound to be farming 12:01:59 syllogism: that's why I am optimistic. DD and Vp are designed with honest play in mind, and they work. But they can be scummed and we should find ways to disable or at least discourage the scumming. 12:02:26 dpeg: I don't think many people scum either very much 12:02:31 a simple idea would be that monsters disappear over time 12:02:41 principle of the thing! 12:02:47 scum-free youth!! 12:02:49 but the start of this discussion was that dd of makhleb is maybe too easy 12:02:52 monsters disappear? that's ridiculous 12:02:59 in particular with additional necromancy 12:03:03 you can wait for ages and clear a level? 12:03:39 don't say "that's ridiculous" 12:04:14 not all monsters would disappear 12:04:19 say monsters disappeared as a Vp. You could go into a level, then back to d:1 (where you've caused generation to stop) and then hold 5 for 40000 turns 12:04:30 but monsters that are no threats anymore, could easily (and explainably) disappear 12:04:36 I don't like late rats anyway... 12:04:43 and if not all monsters would disappear you can vamp draining them anyway 12:04:53 -!- JordiGH has joined ##crawl-dev 12:05:20 casmith789: the idea is that you get the monsters you (with your xp and XL) deserve 12:05:30 not the ones you left behind 12:05:37 ah 12:06:28 -!- JordiGH has left ##crawl-dev 12:06:29 so if you leave some cuddly yaks at XL 12 in Lair:4, you may come back 30000 turns later with XL 27, to find that they have been chased away by dire elephant bands 12:06:50 that would just encourage more scumming :P 12:06:53 (which you would still kill, but it'd be an improvement, I hope) 12:06:56 syllogism: xp? 12:06:58 yes 12:07:13 syllogism: not sure: you skipped on the early xp (when you needed it most) and you spent the time 12:07:24 you could just leave some green rats behind 12:07:28 if you wait too long (no matter where), monster generation will go off limits anyway 12:07:46 easier to just remove them completely 12:07:46 well, the level could also simply be empty 12:07:49 yes 12:08:05 or 50 Nellies 12:08:15 that gets back to my earlier issue, you can wait on d:1 for ages to clear a level? 12:08:39 only monsters weaker than you would disappear 12:08:44 and possibly only if you gain levels and such 12:08:56 yes,something like that 12:09:05 the hydra you left the level for would stay (for a very long time, at least) 12:09:35 though it seems like a rather complex and not very transparent mechanic to solve a fairly minor issue 12:10:05 dpeg: Vp can be scummed on bloodless forever, so if there was some time delay it wouldn't help 12:11:38 -!- ortoslon has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:11:41 yes, the issue at the start of this discussion was dpeg's feeling that ddck of makhleb is overpowered 12:11:46