00:11:06 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:17:27 book of air tweak (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2122) by TGW 00:18:55 -!- ogaz has joined ##crawl-dev 00:23:13 -!- Giomancer has joined ##crawl-dev 00:54:20 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 01:04:20 -!- whig has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:07:28 -!- Giomancer has quit [Quit: It's a dud! It's a dud! It's a du...] 01:11:21 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 01:12:12 what's the difference between CMD_TARGET_PREV_TARGET and CMD_TARGET_MAYBE_PREV_TARGET? keybind.txt says nothing about it 01:17:53 -!- stabwound has quit [] 01:21:04 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:22:23 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 01:28:09 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 01:28:27 -!- stabwound has quit [Client Quit] 01:32:19 -!- ogaz has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:33:01 -!- ogaz has joined ##crawl-dev 01:36:39 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 01:37:56 Keskitalo: dwarf hunters still start with dwarf bolts 01:38:35 -!- stabwound has quit [Client Quit] 01:38:40 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 02:04:36 -!- ixtli_ has quit [Quit: ixtli_] 02:25:31 -!- ogaz has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:42:57 -!- Pseudonut has joined ##crawl-dev 02:47:13 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:52:42 -!- Pseudonut has joined ##crawl-dev 03:08:23 moin moin 03:08:56 greensnark, today I could help you with the dgl installation on cao 03:15:47 -!- ixtli has joined ##crawl-dev 03:15:56 -!- ixtli has left ##crawl-dev 03:19:02 -!- Giomancer has joined ##crawl-dev 03:19:25 !tell by the misc fixes commit would fix the compile, also it includes the same change that was my earlier tiles compile fix 03:19:42 Keskitalo: OK, I'll let by know. 03:20:13 I'm just not sure how to pick it. Hmm, now it only promises +32C for today. 03:21:44 Keskitalo: the problem is there's conflicts, and they're hard to resolve without actually being able to test the compile 03:21:44 by: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 03:22:42 Ah.. I guess I could try.. not sure if I can grok what the code actually does or should do, but could give it a shot. 03:25:10 How do I cherry-pick(?) that change to my local master? 03:25:26 by: do you have problems with compiling or with actually running it? 03:26:01 the computer I currently have access to has trouble compiling tiles 03:27:52 well, do you have all libraries installed? I guess SDL is not self-contained except for Windows, so if you'd need to install all the X headers, you can as well just install distribution-provided SDL. 03:29:05 I do all development on a beefy headless server >100km away, and it works just fine... at least until I try to actually run Crawl over X forwarding, when it's "a tad" slow 03:29:05 there's some weird mix of outdated dependencies installed and ones missing that I managed to work around at some point 03:29:59 what OS is that? For Debian, etch's libraries are good enough. 03:32:25 it's a debian, but SDL is only partially installed 03:33:12 kilobyte: hunters still start with corresponding racial missiles 03:33:44 I'll have my main notebook back in a while, which compiles tiles fine 03:33:57 ortoslon: oh, my bad. The race is set via another way there. 03:34:29 Keskitalo: you could "git add" that github repository, then fetch from it, then "git cherry-pick" by hash 03:35:58 or take http://sprunge.us/ehKN 03:36:11 the GL changes are probably unrelated 03:36:49 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 03:40:16 Hmh, I'm not getting the conflicts to work on, it just fails to apply. 03:47:25 by: apt-get install libncursesw5-dev bison flex liblua5.1-0-dev pkg-config libsdl-image1.2-dev libsdl1.2-dev libsqlite3-dev libfreetype6-dev 03:47:31 just to make sure you have everything 03:48:18 and another thing: tiles + crappy Radeon drivers can cause X to crash the whole system :p 03:49:03 although it seems to happen only for X forwarding, never locally 03:49:03 -!- ortoslon has quit [Quit: bye] 03:53:49 I don't have root access there 04:03:38 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:05:40 It's mu! <3 04:06:39 03kilobyte * re2051631d3bf 10/crawl-ref/source/ (7 files): Specify char signedness where it matters. 04:06:40 03kilobyte * r1da3114b54eb 10/crawl-ref/source/ng-setup.cc: Don't racialize starting missiles. 04:07:00 -fsigned-char appears to have no effect 04:07:34 -!- OG17 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:07:44 I fixed only places that the compiler caught that look likely to introduce bugs, but there are more. 04:08:20 -fsigned-char is the default on i386-linux 04:08:39 the interesting one is -funsigned-char 04:09:25 armel has it unsigned, even though our makefile specifies -fsigned-char 04:09:40 but I guess trying to have different chars in different includes isn't a good idea 04:15:09 on the second thought, it's better to use ints, or, where space matters, int8_t/uint8_t everywhere -- so the type's name tells us whether it is a string's element or a number 04:15:56 oh, sorear, perhaps you have an idea: are there any Unix systems where requiring cursesw could be an issue? 04:16:23 or you could just use java, there the primitve data types are defined :-D 04:16:36 I have basically no knowledge of cursesw 04:17:29 * due makes sign to ward off java 04:18:40 bhaak: Java has silly assumptions, like, forcing compilers to roll over signed ints at 2<<31 to -2<<31, which kills a slew of optimizations just for a rare special case 04:19:29 heck, even Ada has it saner, trapping signed int overflow, causing runtime errors in that case 04:19:59 let's just use C# then, it has uniform types *and* trapping overflow 04:20:52 well, in the department of sanity, C# is not a contender 04:21:05 neither is C++ or Java 04:21:09 -!- Giomancer has quit [Quit: When the chips are down, well, the buffalo is empty] 04:21:21 the idea of memory safety is good, but the rest of the language is ridiculous 04:22:35 heck, the language that I like the most is LPC. 04:22:56 show me a sane language besides lisp 04:23:17 lisp doesn't qualify as sane 04:23:19 and lisp is only sane because it was an accidental by-product of a theoretical paper :) 04:23:47 * sorear happens to like C# quite a bit better than Java 04:23:51 C with memory safety, anonymous functions and lists+mappings as first class citizens 04:25:53 and some bizarre cases, like: if foo is an array of arrays of mappings of ints, foo[3][0..2]["moo"] is a valid lvalue -- you can assign a three-element array of ints to 04:26:08 kilobyte: the int rollover is actually a good thing. it ensures that you have no plattform specifics in int handling 04:26:21 perl has slices, but slice support in LPC has gone to ridiculous points 04:27:42 bhaak: it introduces errors, assuming that ints never overflow (possibly trapping that) makes programming safer 04:28:02 after that day I had to debug a Crawl bug that only manifested on amd64? NEVER AGAIN 04:28:25 I will have my applications code bug-compatible between platforms at any cost 04:29:39 kilobyte: IMO, a primitive data type in an OO language is an error in itself :-) but in java you at least get the error regardless where you run it. in C where programmers also think that numbers never overflow you don't have that convenience 04:29:57 Would I be wrong in saying that the only reason Crawl is still in C++ is because no two devs can agree on a better language? 04:30:58 sorear: to some extent, yes. also, it would be too much work :-) and with lua you already make C++ programming skills less needed to develpp crawl 04:31:35 The lua/c++ barrier in Crawl is quite painful 04:31:51 not for the ones using ony lua :) 04:32:15 how painful do you think is it to program a compliant java compiler? :D 04:32:34 why would the crawl team be writing a java compiler? 04:32:53 java compilers already exist 04:33:35 it is the same concept. a few poor people dive into the ugly entrails of low level programming for the many who would go insane doing it 04:34:50 java is far saner than clua 04:36:07 Argh, I give up. 04:40:16 -!- ixtli has joined ##crawl-dev 04:42:38 sorear: sanity is also POV. once a fellow non-programmer looked at my screen and said something what I parsed as "woah, I am quite happy that I don't know how to program. I'm now going to program a few simple for- and while-loops in a bloated xml-syntax-language that is only a poor functional language stripped of all the good functional parts." 04:42:52 sorear: what he really said was "woah, I'm quite happy that I don't know how to program. I'm now doing some xslt writing." 04:51:18 by: That was over my head. 04:56:43 -!- casmith789 has joined ##crawl-dev 04:56:44 Keskitalo: sorry 05:09:09 03by * re58e173e374c 10/crawl-ref/source/files.cc: Fix shaft and hatch always leading to top left of map. 05:09:20 03by * r0987f794b628 10/crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: Make shafts and hatches choose the safest adjacent destination in slime. 05:09:21 03by * r01b26fcd1161 10/crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: No walls adjacent to stairs in slime. 05:11:30 by: cool! 05:12:19 articulated kraken on sprint 2 is cool 05:12:40 the tentacle is chasing me :( 05:14:23 go tentacle! 05:15:22 tentacle ftw! 05:17:44 tentakilled 05:17:58 it was a pacifist run so that wasp was pretty annoying 05:21:44 by: how much of luca's patches is yet unmerged? I have some changes that would likely cause conflicts, should I do something else for now? 05:24:26 I'm about to commit an untested version of the last bit 05:26:28 no hurry, it's just some cleanup in preparation for Unicode overhaul 05:27:52 03by * rd9564d436334 10/crawl-ref/source/ (show.cc tags.cc tilesdl.cc): Update tiles for env.show change. 05:27:54 03by * r26153aece34b 10/crawl-ref/source/ (glwrapper.h tilefont.h): Remove extra semicolons (Luca). 05:30:05 Keskitalo: merge conflicts resolved there, but I'm not sure it actually works 05:31:49 kilobyte: done with Luca's patches 05:39:11 Crash upon entering temple (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2123) by Nobody 05:43:57 !lm * crash 05:43:57 92. [2010-07-27] MarvinPA the Farming Annihilator (L27 NaFE) ASSERT(vector.size() < max size) in 'store.cc' at line 1773 failed on turn 337281. (Zig:16) 05:45:43 greensnark, are you around? 05:46:36 greensnark: I've managed to blank my password on CAO, need to reset it. 05:49:18 that temple crash looks like a restart_after_game issue 05:49:38 he appears to even have notes from his previous game 05:53:44 I'm here pretty briefly 05:53:59 I'm actually not sure how to reset dgl passwords :P 05:54:09 Let me look 05:54:32 syllogism: What version was he using? 05:55:05 it says 0.8 branch 05:55:55 0.8.0-a0-502- 05:56:18 err 0.8.0-a0-502-gddcdb4e 05:56:31 Ah 05:56:49 I don't remember if reset-game clears notes 05:57:04 Possibly there's a notes assert getting triggered 05:57:16 due: Your bookofjude account, right? 05:57:20 the assert is ASSERT(levels_seen <= (unsigned long) branches[branch].depth) 05:57:29 Aha 05:58:57 due: I've set your password back to the same thing you use for all your other 16 accounts :P 05:59:11 Also: this old dgl's password storage is lamentable 05:59:18 I should upgrade sometime 06:01:08 greensnark: There's 16? :) 06:01:14 greensnark: Thanks. 06:01:19 due: Does it work? 06:01:36 greensnark: Just trying 06:01:42 due: Well, 4 accounts, but a little exaggeration never harmed anyone :P 06:01:43 Yup, thanks. 06:02:55 * greensnark back to work. 06:04:26 that Rugxulo guy keeps moaning about us "intentionally not fixing the DOS port and not even hosting his build" 06:04:34 did he even provide a working one? 06:05:02 where is he moaning 06:05:41 http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/0-6-1#comments 06:06:07 yes, he did 06:06:12 we're ignoring him, I think 06:06:30 but, did that build fix the bugs? 06:07:11 I dpo not think so 06:07:26 are there patches? 06:07:44 I think we'd be happy to apply any appropriate patches 06:09:04 "You guys should’ve tested the “new” build process under DOSEMU before ever releasing 0.6.0" haha 06:14:19 Watter moccisan on D:3? 06:14:26 After 1471 turns in total. 06:15:13 No fair :( 06:16:36 !lg * killer=~water moccasin s=place 06:16:37 165 games for * (killer=~water moccasin): 27x D:5, 27x D:2, 22x D:3, 20x D:4, 18x D:6, 13x D:7, 9x Ossuary, 8x D:8, 5x D:9, 4x D:10, 3x Lair:1, 3x Lair:2, 3x D:1, 1x Lair:7, 1x D:11, 1x Lair:3 06:17:39 !lg * killer=water moccasin s=place 06:17:40 129 games for * (killer=water moccasin): 21x D:2, 20x D:5, 19x D:3, 15x D:6, 13x D:4, 13x D:7, 7x D:8, 5x D:9, 4x D:10, 3x D:1, 3x Lair:2, 3x Lair:1, 1x D:11, 1x Lair:7, 1x Lair:3 06:20:53 I found a wand of paralysis, go me. 06:29:28 Ctrl < or Ctrl > allowed when starving (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2124) by Nexos 06:48:01 -!- Textmode has quit [Quit: Over the ages, man has been certain of a great many things. some of these things were even true.] 07:01:18 !lg * 0.7 killer=uniq s=killer 07:01:19 686 games for * (0.7 killer=uniq): 165x Sigmund, 75x Terence, 61x Crazy Yiuf, 49x Ijyb, 45x Jessica, 37x Blork the orc, 31x Duvessa, 28x Prince Ribbit, 24x Menkaure, 22x Dowan, 19x Pikel, 16x Edmund, 10x Agnes, 9x Purgy, 8x Erolcha, 7x Erica, 7x poisonous meat, 6x Gastronok, 6x Rupert, 6x Nessos, 6x Joseph, 6x Norbert, 5x giant spore, 5x Wayne, 4x Grinder, 3x Saint Roka, 3x Harold, 2x Jozef, 2x Gr... 07:01:47 poisonous meat heh 07:02:20 !lg * 0.7 place=swamp|shoals|snake s=br 07:02:21 30 games for * (0.7 place=swamp|shoals|snake): 17x Shoals, 7x Swamp, 6x Snake 07:02:42 shoals is keeping its lead over swamp+snake 07:02:59 !lg * 0.7 place=slime s=killer 07:02:59 2 games for * (0.7 place=slime): 2x an acid blob 07:11:03 Poisonous meat should be a bloody ktyp, not a killer field 07:11:37 I don't know who's responsible for polluting the killer field there, but it should be fixed :P 07:13:38 !lg * killer=poisonous meat x=ktyp 07:13:39 14. [ktyp=pois] rath the Ruinous (L2 DECj), succumbed to poisonous meat on D:1 on 2010-07-29, with 105 points after 1726 turns and 0:11:46. 07:14:03 That ktyp looks correct, but 'poisonous meat' should go to kaux in that case 07:14:10 'killer' is reserved for monster names 07:14:24 that should probably be documented somewhere 07:14:28 (maybe it is?) 07:14:33 Don't think so 07:15:36 !lg * ktyp=pois s=kaux 07:15:37 27053 games for * (ktyp=pois): 27011x , 13x sting, 9x curare-tipped needle, 7x residual poison, 5x poison arrow, 2x poison gas, 2x bolt of poison, 1x curare-tipped elven needle, 1x magical storm, 1x curare-tipped orcish needle, 1x splash of poison 07:15:52 !lg * ktyp=pois s=killer 07:15:53 27053 games for * (ktyp=pois): 26142x , 286x a snake, 201x a kobold, 116x a potion of poison, 46x a giant ant, 31x a goblin, 29x a scorpion, 26x a small snake, 16x a giant mite, 14x poisonous meat, 13x a killer bee, 11x a water moccasin, 10x a potion of strong poison, 7x a needle trap, 7x a gnoll, 6x Ijyb, 6x Crazy Yiuf, 5x Duvessa, 4x Sigmund, 4x Nessos, 4x a sea snake, 4x a soldier ant, 3x poiso... 07:17:03 Ah, must have been when kilobyte did poison source tracking 07:18:00 Sea snakes are too weak :P 07:18:25 should be fixed by just making the two-argument calls to poison_player pass the misc source as third argument 07:18:31 Admittedly I added them just so nobody could accuse Shoals of having all tough monsters 07:18:59 will fix it, ok? 07:19:09 by: Sounds good <3 07:19:18 maybe yre worshippers should leave behind zombies instead of ghosts 07:19:31 As long as they keep all their spells 07:19:54 Yred ghosts should have pain mirror :P 07:21:29 actually, all of poison tracking should be rewritten 07:21:49 every single thing that stores delayed killer does that in its own way 07:25:27 03by * r9c58434a662f 10/crawl-ref/source/ (food.cc it_use2.cc spells2.cc traps.cc): Fix poison kills attributed to non-monsters. (greensnark) 07:33:21 -!- flowsnake has joined ##crawl-dev 07:52:51 03by * r6936d684cc3e 10/crawl-ref/source/ (player-stats.cc player.cc player.h tag-version.h tags.cc): Attribute delayed stat death to whatever brought you past zero. (#2115) 08:01:19 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:03:05 -!- Niccus has quit [] 08:07:46 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:08:47 is the tomb card not working in the abyss a bug? it's from the deck of punishment if that matters 08:11:29 also I think I drew a portal card which didn't work either for some reason 08:16:34 were you already surrounded by some walls 08:17:01 not fully 08:17:15 there was one and some shallow water 08:17:29 "nothing appears to happen" 08:19:36 -!- paxed has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:23:05 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 08:30:37 how many walls around is too many? I just drew it with three walls around me (in Geh this time) and again didn't work 08:31:19 it's probably drawn at such a low power it rarely does anything 08:32:40 even when there are no walls at all 08:59:49 37.2c nice 08:59:59 C 09:01:01 are you getting air from the south east? 09:01:19 yes 09:13:06 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 09:23:18 orb shouldn't be apportable 09:23:24 or should at least require high spellpower 09:23:30 100+ 09:25:27 Sure Blade spell improvement (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2125) by Talion 09:33:24 0.6 CPU usage is killing CAO :P 09:33:39 There's a complete fuckwit sitting in the temple with a macro to cast summon butterflies, apparently waiting out Sif wrath 09:33:58 I may have to disable 0.6 during the tourney 09:34:04 syllogism, certainly 09:34:13 I think that sounds reasonable 09:34:26 traffic shaping? 09:34:43 greensnark, syllogism, what are you're takes on MF overpoweredness presently? 09:35:19 I really need to implement !send for these guys 09:35:31 you are optimistic 09:35:37 At least he seems to have moved on now 09:35:59 should make all wraths tension based 09:36:04 Yes 09:36:11 This temple '5' crap must end 09:36:27 Ok, now he checks his messages :) 09:36:58 doesn't look like he cares :P 09:37:06 I think you scared him :) 09:37:15 -!- CIA-44 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:37:16 he is back already 09:37:28 it was more a "job well done" save 09:37:34 I think we should get rid of the Xom-prefers-a-heretic banner :P 09:37:41 he is doing it again 09:37:43 That will produce just this kind of idiocy 09:37:45 you should kill his game :P 09:37:53 :( 09:38:03 At least performance for this kind of crap is better in 0.7 09:38:06 But he has to play 0.6 :P 09:38:36 Not too big a problem right now, but I shall disable 0.6 for tourney 09:38:44 crawl needs a byte-sent-over-wire-counter with configurable throttling :) 09:38:51 syllogism: I don't think he understands :) 09:39:12 syllogism: He's probably confused as to why you're yelling at him :) 09:39:52 !lg highhope3 1 09:39:53 1. highhope3 the Stinger (L1 HEVM), got out of the dungeon alive. on 2010-06-21, with 20 points after 1 turn and 0:00:03. 09:41:15 how strange 09:41:27 Poor guy must be spooked :) 09:41:40 !aplayers 09:41:44 13 active, <=80x24 players: capslocke (L18 DSFi @ D:25, T:55572), Nexos (L11 TrBe @ D:11, T:14160), jejorda2 (L10 DEWz @ D:10, T:17535), Chozo (L8 DDNe @ D:8, T:5404), mafalda (L8 MfCr @ D:5, T:6424), think (L8 DDNe @ D:7, T:7097), Humaan (L6 MuSu @ D:7, T:7856), Luquillo (L5 MDHu @ D:3, T:1862), alray (L2 MDFi @ D:1, T:298), chalk (L2 SpEn @ D:2, T:1351), kyshwn (L2 MDFi @ D:2, T:1288), niggergok... 09:42:12 Well, since he cut back on his activities, load average has dropped back from >3 to <1 09:43:09 looks like he did the same thing last time 09:44:00 lol, I recently heard a gaming podcast where they told about their rl experience. those guys had access to an university unix machine in the 80ies and they learnt a lot about unix while playing rogue 09:44:16 for example like "you can't play rogue if load is > 3" :-) 09:44:35 he switched to sure blade 09:44:37 :P 09:45:32 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 09:46:57 apparently he just didn't know how to respond 09:47:05 you know, yelling at users for farming isn't right 09:47:14 * bhaak looks if dpeg is here 09:47:31 you should yell at the person responsible for the possibility of farming! :-) 09:47:47 syllogism: lol, know he knows about macros! 09:48:16 has someone proposed to add doomrl-style active dodging to crawl? 09:49:19 s/someone/anyone/ 09:50:35 God wrath produces moronic play + increased server load (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2126) by greensnark 09:54:09 yay! just remove god wrath! 09:54:19 09:55:19 what I'd like is for god wrath to never end, just decrease in likelihood and maybe severity the longer ago the abandonment was (possibly factoring in max piety during worship) 09:55:46 I also like syllogism's idea of linking it to tension 09:55:53 There's no point triggering god wrath on a player in the Temple 09:55:56 could do both 09:55:59 Yes 09:56:10 but will player notice that they CAN'T trigger it in there? 09:56:24 but if you know there will never be a point where it's now over, waiting it out will be much less attractive 09:56:33 bhaak: Eventually. We also need to throttle macros :) 09:57:07 documenting it woudl help 09:57:10 wait 10k turns, chance of retribution halves 09:57:19 greensnark: Eventually? you know that players tend to do stupid things only because they think it did once help? I just #shout: "Kitty!" 09:57:35 bhaak: Yes, I know, which is why I also propose throttling macros :) 09:57:53 Throttling macros and lean-on-key cases will solve the server CPU issue 09:58:03 well by the time they starve in temple they'll notice something is amiss :) 09:58:07 The gameplay problems of the current god wrath need gameplay solutions 09:58:22 the problem is leaning on keys? 09:58:28 what if they did it using 0 09:58:45 We can handle all that by setting a threshold on commands-processed-per-second 09:59:00 Once we exceed the threshold the server starts sleeping, say 50ms before processing the next command 09:59:13 I meant, would 0 cause the same issues as holding down a macro key 09:59:46 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2127 :P 10:00:39 Snozzcumbers don't count as fruit for Fedhas (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2127) by 256 10:00:39 casmith789: If holding down 0 repeats a command indefinitely, yes 10:01:04 I meant something like 09999Za 10:01:25 the worst such macro is '5' 10:01:48 100 turns for just a single keypress 10:02:11 ortoslon: that is one of the more interesting parts of doomrl, personally 10:02:58 casmith789: Yep, that would do it 10:03:22 okay 10:03:35 kilobyte: tension is much harder to game and it's certainly better than status quo 10:03:39 casmith789: I trust you do not plan to do a kerio and try it on the server 10:03:49 nope, I'm not him 10:03:53 Excellent :) 10:04:11 how much cpu load can you generate just by hitting 5 repeatedly in sprint I wonder 10:04:13 also I'm on a 2 streak and I wouldn't dream of annoying the crawl devs like that :p 10:04:15 and it would be fairly easy to fix the issues with tension 10:04:30 i'm not sure how well it would work in crawl though 10:04:47 syllogism: running around a pillar is not any harder, really 10:04:52 no, the reason I asked was wondering whether it was due to the issues of holding down keys as opposed to pressing keys repeatedly 10:05:04 -!- CIA-40 has joined ##crawl-dev 10:05:08 they would occasionally get to attack 10:05:15 what range of values does tension have? 10:05:17 Anything that makes the game run world time really fast is going to load the server 10:05:18 and here, it wasn't a lot of commands pressed. 40 (his mana) during ~5 seconds. 10:05:29 doy: i'm pretty sure it would combine well with soon-to-be-added melee maneuvers 10:05:30 you can run around a pillar 3 steps away or the like 10:05:36 kilobyte: the load isn't the only problem, obviously 10:05:45 you shouldn't be able to wait out god wrath like that 10:06:01 Cryp71c: you'd know what tension values are typically like, right? 10:06:17 yeah, but none of the solutions I can think of involve tension 10:06:35 it would need to be helluva more smarter than it is currently 10:06:35 so what do you suggest 10:06:40 by, yes 10:06:50 even exploration is better 10:06:57 -!- Giomancer has joined ##crawl-dev 10:07:00 Cryp71c: can you tell me? 10:07:42 and to keep things from being too safe, we may do this: when you explore, a counter charges up. The charge then bleeds down, slowly. 10:08:38 by, certainly, though it varies of course with scenario. 10:08:47 I wonder if the butterfly-disappearance smoke was causing LOS invalidation in highhope's game 10:09:01 0.6 invalidates LOS rather eagerly, right? 10:09:35 0.6 didn't have cached LOS at all 10:09:38 Ah 10:09:39 clouds do invalidate LOS 10:09:40 by, early on, one can expect tension values between 0 and 15ish, unless you get a gnoll pack, at which point tension can easily jump to 80, depending on the character. 10:10:04 ok, late game it's lower? 10:10:14 no, higher 10:10:31 By lair, tension usually sticks between 0 and 60 or so, unless you hit a vault 10:11:32 By end game, it drops back a bit, between 0 and 40 or so, again..unless a vault 10:11:40 ok, thanks 10:12:25 ok, here's an idea for god wrath. We need to know that the player is doing something that can't be gamed. This means, doing some progress. The only ways to progress that are not really undoable are 1. getting exp, 2. exploration. 10:12:26 is there a wizmode/debug mode command that displays tension 10:12:29 np, extended endgame, its anyones guess, pan lords would easily jump the tension 100+, I would think. And 1-demons would probably account for 20-30 tension apiece 10:13:11 syllogism, no, I did at one point have dprfs for displaying tension, but they were spammy, even in wizmode, so I removed them a while back. 10:13:20 so when you do either of these things, the counter would increase... and as long as it's non-zero, you are eligible for god wrath 10:13:37 kilobyte, counter decay, then, I presume? 10:13:59 Cryp71c: yeah. 10:14:20 then optimal play would be gaining xp/exploring and resting until you are no longer eligible 10:14:29 we should define sensible values for tension 10:14:32 Sounds reasonable, so long as there is a stepdown or max on the counter, to prevent you from accumulating a huge counter 10:14:57 by, the difficulty is in the variance in get_tension, which is huge, to say the least. 10:15:22 well, yes, I think we should define what we expect of get_tension, and then adapt get_tension if it doesn't fit 10:15:49 could just use tension and reset it to 0 if player isn't gaining xp 10:16:04 of course all the wraths would have to be rebalanced 10:16:19 syllogism: then you would kill just one of your entourage and continue 10:16:32 spawns stop eventually though 10:16:51 0: perfectly safe 10-15: fighting relatively popcorn monsters 30-40: careful player fighting strong opponents in a controlled situation 70: dangerous situation requiring resource use 100: player should fear for their life 10:17:04 something like that 10:17:34 I still think wrath should never end 10:17:57 by: perhaps taper down but never totally go away? 10:18:04 by: like Nemelex? 10:18:36 kilobyte: not sure what Nemelex is like, but yes 10:19:45 something like wrath if one_chance_in(10 + turns since abandonment) 10:20:43 that would make the sum of wraith by time infinite, yeah 10:21:32 using turns there still isn't good though 10:22:17 could use piety gain to reduces the counters 10:22:54 doy: why? 10:23:06 by: because resting a lot would still be optimal? 10:23:35 syllogism: you're right, it would let them wait out the worst part of the wrath 10:23:39 -!- Moriasc has joined ##crawl-dev 10:23:54 that depends on the precise formula, but if the decay is slow enough, I doubt anyone would 10:25:42 they already wait out current wrath, and that's like 50k turns 10:25:58 start at some arbritrary chance 1, and halve it every 50k turns 10:26:13 well, and that's unnecessarily harsh 10:26:24 we don't want to discourage god switching that severely 10:27:23 what about this 10:27:25 I'm sure there's some place in the middle where it works 10:27:34 also, we could still factor in tension 10:27:52 and if there's no counter to decay, tension is not abusable 10:28:40 by: time would be the counter, even if it never gets to 0 10:28:42 reducing wrath probability is based on doing things that the appropriate god likes 10:28:53 as opposed to just enduring the wrath 10:29:04 not sure what that would mean for something like nemelex 10:29:22 but it might be a decent idea overall 10:30:16 the wrathful god or the old one? 10:30:20 err 10:30:20 n ew 10:30:22 the wrathful one 10:30:33 just have piety gain stuff also check for wrath reduction 10:30:38 doy: not bad, gods that we can't handle right now may simply use time or exp for the time being 10:30:51 yeah 10:31:04 what if you go from sif to trog :( 10:31:18 chomp? 10:31:19 then you've wasted a lot of exp 10:31:52 syllogism: that should be a painful switch d: 10:31:53 syllogism: good point, time or exp would have to reduce the wrath as well 10:31:57 i think that would be "working as intended" 10:32:14 or just piety gained with the new god 10:32:25 why should trog accept someone who just switched directly from sif 10:32:34 -!- Giomancer has quit [Quit: There's nothing dirtier then a giant ball of oil] 10:32:36 seems like he'd just be more interested in killing you 10:32:50 you could always switch to some other god first 10:32:56 to work off your sif wrath 10:32:59 and then switch to trog 10:33:04 doy: idea: we may put up a new formula (or several), and log moments when the new wrath would happen. We'd leave that on CDO and gather some balancing info. 10:33:43 unfortunately people don't switch all that much 10:33:48 probably wouldn't get very helpful data 10:34:00 in a timely manner at least 10:34:19 unless you simulate it 10:35:48 I wonder how much info we can get from ttyrecs. 10:36:19 -!- ortoslon has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:36:19 Looking for strings like "You kill XXX." (and looking up exp for monster XXX), and the like 10:38:15 -!- CIA-40 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:42:24 Anyways, was going to mention that I was planning on implementing a nerf to MF health gain, as per the discussion on mantis 2100, but wanted to get you all's opinions on the matter before I move forward. 10:42:31 s/health gain/health 10:43:58 -!- OG17 has joined ##crawl-dev 10:47:10 sounds good to me (I think they should be like humans) 10:47:17 !apt mf 10:47:17 Mf: Air: -2, Armour: -3, Axes: -2, Bows: -2, Conj: -2, Xbows: -2, Dodge: 3, Earth: -2, Ench: 1, Evo: 0, Exp: 120, Fighting: 1, Fire: -3*, Ice: 1, Inv: 0, Long: 1, Maces: -2, Nec: -2, Poison: 1, Polearms: 4!, Shields: 0, Short: 2, Slings: -2, Splcast: 0, Stab: 2, Staves: -2, Stealth: 1, Summ: 0, Throw: 0, Tloc: -2, Tmut: 3!, Traps: -1, Unarmed: 1! 10:47:58 also make unarmed apt 0 in my opinion 10:48:02 by the way, is the XP multiplier shown in-game anywhere 10:48:59 yes, in ?% 10:49:36 -!- whig has joined ##crawl-dev 10:51:52 by, others argue that, and I'm hesitant to nerf it since unarmed fighting is essential underwater and only really affects MFTm 10:52:42 whereas a health nerf will appropriately effect all Mf 10:53:03 !apt tm 10:53:03 Could not understand "tm" 10:53:08 !apt transmutations 10:53:08 Tmut: Dr: 0, Dr[black]: 0, Ce: -1, DD: -1, DE: 1, DG: -1, DS: -1, Gh: -1, Dr[green]: 0, Dr[grey]: 0, Ha: -2, HE: 1, HO: -3*, Hu: 0, Ke: -2, Ko: -1, Mf: 3!, Mi: -3*, Dr[mottled]: 0, MD: -1, Mu: -2, Na: 0, Og: -3*, Dr[pale]: 0, Dr[purple]: 0, Dr[red]: 0, SE: 3!, Sp: 3!, Tr: -3*, Vp: 1, Dr[white]: 0, Dr[yellow]: 0 10:54:33 !apt unarmed 10:54:33 Unarmed: Dr: 0, Dr[black]: 0, Ce: 0, DD: -1, DE: -2*, DG: -1, DS: -1, Gh: 1!, Dr[green]: 0, Dr[grey]: 0, Ha: -2*, HE: -2*, HO: 1!, Hu: 0, Ke: 1!, Ko: 0, Mf: 1!, Mi: 1!, Dr[mottled]: 0, MD: 0, Mu: -2*, Na: 0, Og: -1, Dr[pale]: 0, Dr[purple]: 0, Dr[red]: 0, SE: 1!, Sp: -2*, Tr: 0, Vp: 1!, Dr[white]: 0, Dr[yellow]: 0 10:55:20 SE and Mf having same apts for both transmutations and unarmed combat is certainly wrong 10:55:37 i kinda think mf should be better at ice and worse at tmut 10:55:48 Mu_, I would definitely support that. 10:56:11 bring Mf to 1, Sp to 2 for transmutations 10:56:14 It addresses the discrepencies between SE/MF trm/uc and is thematic to MF 10:56:26