00:04:58 -!- pineapple has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:05:01 -!- pineapple has joined ##crawl-dev 01:04:07 -!- by has joined ##crawl-dev 01:11:06 -!- Madtrixr has joined ##crawl-dev 01:38:43 -!- ixtli|school has joined ##crawl-dev 01:40:36 -!- Napkin has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:22:44 -!- ixtli|school has left ##crawl-dev 02:23:38 -!- Epyon has joined ##crawl-dev 02:24:35 hello 02:24:35 Anyone can suggest a VPS or shared host that's reliable and slashdot resistant? I'm asking here, cause the crawl wiki will move to it too... 02:24:54 sorear ;> 02:25:25 -!- baturinsky_ has joined ##crawl-dev 02:25:28 -!- baturinsky has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:27:20 -!- Napkin has joined ##crawl-dev 02:27:25 Oh. You're here. 02:27:36 -!- baturinsky_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:27:37 Hello Napkin 02:28:12 hi sorear 02:28:27 locked screen.. dooh 02:28:31 Napkin: Epyon here needs a few tips on wiki hosting VPSes... CrawlWiki is moving 02:38:53 Hi Epyon 02:39:21 Just got to work - I'll grab some coffee, read emails and get back to you. 02:41:46 Thanks :) 02:44:39 !coffee napkin 02:44:40 * Henzell hands napkin a mug of irish coffee, brewed by Ijyb. 02:49:39 -!- by has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:01:56 !tell sorear If you have the irc logs about summoning, how about putting them up somewhere.. 03:01:57 Keskitalo: OK, I'll let sorear know. 03:03:41 Keskitalo: Good idea. How? 03:03:41 sorear: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 03:03:44 !messages 03:03:45 (1/1) Keskitalo said (1m 48s ago): If you have the irc logs about summoning, how about putting them up somewhere.. 03:05:53 Ah, you were here. Can you e-mail them to me? 03:06:14 Hmm, could also attach them as a file to the wiki page. 03:26:01 Hi 03:35:52 -!- by has joined ##crawl-dev 03:42:08 hey rob 03:45:07 hi 04:19:04 Napkin? 04:22:43 is probably around 04:26:00 Morning all :) 04:26:06 hey Epyon - how can I help you? 04:31:40 sorear told me you can give me a few tips on VPSes -- I'll be moving chaosforge.org *somewhere*, and that'll include CrawlWiki which currentlt takes 1/3 of chaosforge CPU and 1/4 of bandwidth :P 04:32:02 Wow. :) 04:32:07 o/ Napkin 04:32:18 Hehe CrawlWiki. <3. 04:32:38 Eino o/ 04:32:50 * due tickles Napkin. 04:33:17 hmm.. not sure how I could help, Epyon? (/me spills his coffee being tickled) 04:33:23 due :-P 04:33:42 Any suggestions on VPS choice? 04:34:08 how much bandwidth is it - and what what software are you using? I could host it for you - but maybe crawl stuff should be a bit more spread? 04:34:14 VPS providers, yes? 04:34:19 yeah 04:34:52 I could listen around for providers in Germany, if that could help? 04:35:14 Currently it's 30GB bandwidth for all of chaosforge, although the wikis and forums are CPU hogs. Once the DoomRL tiles version will be released hell can get loose -_- 04:35:32 hehe 04:36:00 I'm running a root server and currently have about 1.5tb traffic left at the end of the month 04:36:05 Also it's an investment in the future -- there will be probably a DoomRL 2 server that will be running. 04:36:27 Napkin: We need to update the April 1st joke to mention Luca's nettiles. 04:36:39 well, how much are you willing to spend? if you would like a very cheap power horse - I would suggest Hetzner 04:37:12 but it's a root server with i9 (4core), 8gb ram, 5tb traffic a month - for only 49 euro a month 04:37:47 that's the best price as far as I know at the moment 04:37:51 I'm willing to spend around 50$/mo at the moment, with a possibility of expansion -- however due to the fact that 80% of chaosforge traffic is from the states am I correct to assume that a US-based server would be better? 04:38:09 Napkin, that's a VPS or a dedicated? 04:38:11 Napkin: Hey, that sounds interesting to me :) 04:38:17 Napkin: You got a website for them? :) 04:38:19 that's dedicated root server 04:38:29 Woah, for 49 euro? 04:38:35 49 euro sounds pretty damn good 04:38:39 they are really cheap.. wouldn't I have a contract at the moment, i would switch 04:38:42 Yeah O.o 04:38:47 49 euro? 04:38:50 I may, uh, look into it for my own hosting 04:38:51 and their support is ok too, infrastructure too 04:38:55 you should 04:38:59 they are awesome 04:39:04 What country? 04:39:07 South Africa. 04:39:08 1s, i think they have english website too 04:39:22 I think? 04:39:25 hetzner is germany 04:39:37 http://www.hetzner.de/en/ 04:39:52 checkout the dedicated root servers EQ 4/6/8/9 04:40:32 Oh. 04:40:35 their net is slightly less stable than CDO - but for half the price it definitely is worth it 04:40:50 draw-back: 150 installation free 04:40:59 I wonder how much... 04:41:01 no minimum contract time though 04:41:27 .69... 04:41:30 so.. if you want to stay for a while, they are worth it 04:41:36 wow 04:41:40 $71AUD a month. That's not bad. 04:42:08 I guess that would handle ChaosForge + ChaosForge SVN for the next few years and still leave some extra... 04:42:12 for me it would be a bit more - i need more ips 04:42:29 but if you are ok with 4 04:42:51 IPs, IPs, IPs! 04:42:53 apart from the installation fee, there is absolutely no reason not to switch to them 04:43:13 Napkin, what about pings to the US and Europe? 04:43:26 -!- cbus has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:43:28 wait, i'll get you an ip to test 04:43:34 Ok, Europe should be blazing fast... what about US? 04:44:35 try it: 188.40.99.146 04:44:48 i would guess between 100 & 150ms 04:45:00 CDO has a rather bad connection to the US with 150ms 04:45:08 higher at prime times 04:45:32 I'm in europe, I'd need a test from US :> 04:45:50 sorear? would you give some stats? 04:46:33 I get a 56ms ping 04:46:41 how's your ping, due, greensnark? 04:46:41 About 350-360ms pin from Australia. 04:46:42 And 211ms for chaosforge -_- 04:46:57 due, can you ping chaosforge? 04:46:57 i have 6.5ms ;> 04:47:02 D: 04:47:09 from cdo ;) 04:47:11 Napkin, de? 04:47:15 yes 04:47:16 Epyon: 280ms. 04:47:16 chaosforge. what? 04:47:24 Epyon: well, 280/290ms. 04:47:29 chaosforge.org 04:47:29 I'm on an unstable wireless at the minute though. 04:47:33 Give me a minute to do it from a LAN. 04:47:44 yes, please 04:47:58 Any US users online? 04:47:58 ~145 from the uk 04:48:10 261/262ms from a wired LAN. 04:48:10 unlikely, they might be all asleep 04:48:13 To chaosforge.net... 04:48:23 .net is not mine :P 04:48:27 Oh. 04:48:28 then again, if anyone has an account on the raxbox... 04:48:38 you can't just compare at a single time of the day, Epyon 04:48:39 Which is yours then? 04:48:51 .org 04:48:52 stupid me, let me ssh to US -_- 04:48:57 that's not reflecting too good 04:49:18 340ms to the 188 IP that Napkin pasted earlier from LAN. 04:49:34 210ms to chaosforge.org from LAN ): 04:49:36 ouch 04:50:17 what ping do you usually have to cdo, due? 04:50:27 stupid bluehost blocked ping on their SSH account -_- 04:50:45 Epyon: I can ping form the US... 04:51:04 40.2ms to chaosfoge.org from the US. 04:51:11 But yeah. 04:51:24 Epyon: Hah, Dreamhost don't :) 04:51:45 due, what about to the posted IP? 04:51:46 160ms for that IP from the US for me. 04:51:54 hmm 04:51:55 Actually, make that 169/170ms. 04:52:07 I get shit pings to basically everywhere. :) 04:52:08 Napkin, seems bad :/ 04:52:26 40ms to chaosforge really rules. 04:52:36 I guess BlueHost has a nice connection in the US 04:52:54 from CAO ping to CDO and that ip gave me 98 and 93 ms 04:52:59 Will probably need a US-based server :/ 04:53:20 Napkin, and chaosforge.org? 04:53:41 CAO and CDO are based in what countries? 04:53:46 79ms 04:53:50 cao is east coast america 04:53:53 CAO is MI, usa 04:53:54 cdo is... germany? 04:54:01 yes 04:54:13 CAO -> chaosforge 79ms 04:54:19 CAO -> CDO 98ms 04:54:26 CAO -> Hetzner 93ms 04:55:25 another ip from hetzner from another buddy of mine: 188.40.57.215 04:56:16 anyways, as I said, Epyon - don't decide by a single ping on a single day. 04:57:26 but yeah, if you want a better ping to the US.. you are probably going to host there. 04:57:47 but I doubt the additional costs will justify that 04:57:53 hmm 04:58:01 meaning? 04:58:36 Found something useful - http://just-ping.com/ :> 04:58:48 anyone i spoke to in the US about hosting is like "wtf, hetzner is so cheap! - i wish we had those prices here" 04:59:57 It gets brilliant pings in Europe... 05:00:31 But around 150ms in the US, and ... ~300 in Australia/Japan :/ 05:01:09 Looks like it's in Munchen. 05:01:29 50% packet loss to china, cool. 05:01:51 they have evening, don't they? 05:02:04 :) 05:02:18 hmm, let's check ChaosForge demographics... 05:02:24 Epyon: That's pretty much standard to any website, to be honnest. 05:02:44 due ? 05:02:48 Most expensive internet, shittiest connections. 05:02:51 (Australia.) 05:02:56 ah -_- 05:05:38 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:06:43 Mu, my sweet demijohn! 05:06:55 No h? 05:07:04 Hmm 05:07:08 Oh, it is h. 05:07:23 50% visits are from S and N America 05:07:34 42% are from Europw 05:07:39 Europe* 05:07:50 Oceania 6% 05:08:39 What's up, network-wise? 05:09:07 rax, what ping do you get at 00188.40.57.21501? 05:09:18 he's looking for a new hoster 05:09:22 hi rax :) 05:09:50 oh... yea... I forgot... : hi :) 05:09:55 ^^ 05:10:18 * Epyon is in the land of milliseconds with a low threshold for reality 05:10:39 rax is up early, time-wise! 05:10:44 what's a demijohn 05:11:06 Mu_: It's a glass jug, basically. You brew alcohol in it. 05:11:16 I've decided it's the perfect term of endearment. 05:11:21 cool 05:11:21 haha 05:11:58 I get about 92ms. 05:12:17 hmm 05:12:37 is a ~100ms server worth 65$/mo? ^^ 05:15:30 but it'll be 150 and higher ms for me then, Epyon ;> 05:15:38 uh... decisions decisions -_- 05:17:57 what exactly do you want to do with it, Epyon? only websites? 05:18:04 Napkin, my friends comment (unix geek) on the hetzner server - "It's a monster" 05:18:16 indeed 05:18:17 Well KK? Having fun trying to balance your needs? 05:18:28 Where are you paying 65/month for a server? I hope this is for a U and not just for a xen slice somewhere. 05:18:51 Napkin - Websites, SVN, Trac, and possibly a DoomRL 2 server 05:18:57 rax: http://www.hetzner.de/en/hosting/produkte_rootserver/eq4/ 05:19:16 -!- baturinsky has joined ##crawl-dev 05:19:51 well.. if you ever want to use the shell there (screen, compile stuff, irc, etc) - you want to make sure that _your_ ping is low, Epyon. 05:20:15 Napkin, for a game server it's the player's ping that counts... 05:20:20 screen is a bitch if you're pining badly... you're typing blind 05:20:40 worse with packet loss 05:20:40 But I guess I'd need at least two servers if I'd be serious with it :/ 05:21:09 i know nothing of doomrl2 - so i have no idea what exactly you need 05:21:45 Napkin, for the current moment just assume a crawl online server :P 05:21:51 the open-source project tremulous is doing the same.. one official server in the US, the other hosted by me (cdo, europe) in a vserver 05:22:39 Oh that looks quite reasonable, Napkin. 05:22:49 Epyon> 50% visits are from S and N America 05:22:49 Napkin, out of interest, what is a bareable minimum ping for tremulous play? 05:22:50 Epyon> 42% are from Europw 05:23:04 rax, suggestions? 05:23:20 one has to lose - seems like 50/50 to me, Epyon 05:23:50 50-150ms (quake3 engine with a so-called "unlagged" feature) 05:23:57 Epyon: I might do something that's a little bit bad for everyone. European players seem ok on CAO, although many/most have switched to CDO and that's fine. 05:24:32 It might be worth testing timings from east coast US or UK, something in the middle, if you can find good hosting there. But it will also be driven by where you can get hosting --- and whether you want physical access in colo. 05:24:55 My machine's about three miles from my house, I can bike there if there's a problem. (That said, because I don't have a hardware service, I _have_ to bike there if there's a problem. :) 05:25:16 I don't want physical access :P 05:27:22 * Madtrixr is glad he's in the channel 05:27:34 Even though I know nothing about servers. 05:28:13 The best option is probably to have two servers, one in Europe and one in the US, and peer them; we do it just by swapping logfiles for our web score builds, but you could do more complicated stuff if you were designing from the ground up. 05:28:54 There doesn't seem to be enough of a player base in South America, Africa, or Asia to put servers out there, at least not for Crawl. I also don't have connections for colo out there (although I bet Japan is easy to get, if expensive) 05:29:00 rax is right - you can't make everyone happy with 1 server 05:29:05 Maybe Australia, too, but again, small playerbase. 05:29:25 Roguelikes are generally helped by being not realtime. 05:32:17 Napkin: offtopic for here... but i don't honestly feel that "unlagged helps anything"... it certainly doesn't affect ping times 05:32:18 oops 05:32:18 put the close quote 2 words to late 05:32:18 too* 05:32:19 * pineapple can't fucking type today :-( 05:32:57 rax: CAO stopped feeling laggy for me when i made the autotravel delay non-0 05:35:00 rax: I would support a server in Australia! <3 05:36:24 due: And I think there are one or two other people I know of, but that's not enough to go out, scope out a colo site, install something... 05:36:59 I'd run one if I had the spare time/money/etc. 05:37:49 * due adds "experience" to the list. 05:40:00 I would help you with setting it up, due :) 05:40:44 and yes, pineapple - I would go even further and use not so nice words to describe what I think of "unlagged" ;> 05:48:08 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 06:14:31 The obvious solution is clearly to install a server at the core of the earth. Connectivity and cooling is a bit of a problem though. 06:15:00 \o/ 06:15:13 i want a shell on that one too :-P 06:15:31 true 06:24:52 -!- Gretell has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:25:07 -!- Gretell has joined ##crawl-dev 06:47:52 should probably fix console dropping the tab etc entry from char menu 06:48:10 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 06:56:02 -!- Epyon_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:56:52 03felirx * r5adbc67e6374 10/crawl-ref/source/newgame.cc: Fix missing menu options in char/species on 80x24 terminal 06:58:39 -!- Epyon has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:19:10 dpeg lives! 07:22:26 he does? 07:22:31 * bhaak kicks dpeg 07:22:41 * bhaak kicks at empty space! 07:22:44 @whereis 07:22:45 No where information for due. 07:22:46 Er. 07:22:47 @players 07:22:47 Zicher (L15 @ D:12, T:41582), Eifeltrampel (L11 @ Lair:7, T:16455), dpeque (L10 @ D:9, T:11275), felirx (L2 @ D:2, T:1586), soul (L2 @ D:2, T:1191), Exabiche (L1 @ D:1, T:149), noom (L1 @ D:1, T:0), wiloe (L @ , T:) 07:22:51 dpeque :) 07:23:06 he needs to work on his disguise 07:48:20 Napkin: Is Hetzner's uptime reliable? I find the pricing and server config really attractive, but the setup fee makes it harder to justify taking a box on a trial basis without confirmation of reliability :) 07:55:27 greensnark: my colleague (their customer for 4 years now) can't remember any downtime reboots/shutdowns caused by them 07:56:09 they had a DDOS last week.. and their routers were not reachable for 30 minutes 07:56:29 apart from that he can't remember any other network disturbances, greensnark 07:57:55 another buddy of mine is running his private server on one of their servers and practically says the same thing 07:58:03 -!- eith_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:58:40 I would switch to them immediately, if I had a choice 07:59:31 their additional IP management is a bit sucky.. you have to route it through your main ip 07:59:59 Napkin: Sounds pretty good 08:00:18 Thanks for mentioning these guys :) 08:00:26 I would say, their net is slightly less reliable than the net CDO has 08:00:26 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:00:45 How so? 08:01:27 well.. if cdo has 3 backbone interrupts a year, hetzner has maybe 4 or 5 08:01:42 Ah ok 08:01:59 which is still very little - considering the other hosters i got to know 08:02:50 I would choose the one for 69 per month, btw 08:03:07 12gb gives you triple-channel speed for the ram 08:03:10 Napkin, because of you I can't focus on work now xP 08:03:30 Although any suggestions of a good US-based VPS are still welcome 08:03:31 hehe, just pretend - guess what I am doing now? ;> 08:04:58 but i would need more than 4 ips.. -> 15eur flexi pack per month... -> 85 euro 08:05:15 what would you need the ips for? 08:05:16 still 18 EUR less than I pay currently 08:05:32 -!- Epyon_ is now known as epyon 08:06:09 virtual machines, separating domain names, multiple https servers (needs 1 ip per domainname) 08:07:46 separating domain names? 08:07:57 that can't be done without multiple ips? 08:08:40 You can, but people can see they're hosted on the same server, and for https you have to use messy multidomain certs 08:32:34 -!- eith_ is now known as eith 08:36:48 Those of us who are spoiled by learning infrastructure stuff in IP-rich environments will do a lot to avoid VPNing. :) 08:39:13 Oh and I still need to post the "what happened on Sunday." I have the version for the other machine owners but I need to strip out details. 08:40:53 rax: Cougar got loose in colo facility? :) 08:41:04 I missed all the excitement this time though 08:41:19 No, kernel issue prevents drive hotswapping, and moronic machine administrators (hi!) failed to make both disks bootable in grub. 08:41:34 So we'll need another restart for a kernel that isn't stupid sauce at some point. 08:41:44 Ah, so it was a software issue 08:42:45 Yes, fortunately. 08:45:47 rax, could you ping chaos.sourcerepo.com and tell me the result? 08:46:20 Very solidly at 92ms. 08:46:37 hmm, I guess that aint bad 08:47:20 (that's from CAO, not from my work desktop machine, if it matters) 08:50:01 CAO's US based? 08:55:28 epyon: Yes, Massachusetts 09:16:15 at 18k turns on D:8, am I likely to be running into the anti-scum OODs? 09:19:23 by: Yes 09:19:43 by: Speed it up :) 09:19:49 can't :) 09:19:53 I ran into the anti-farm OODs a couple of times myself 09:19:59 barely hanging on 09:20:02 I found it quite funny :) 09:20:27 If you have 2-3 hard levels in a row you can get bottled up and hilarity ensues 09:22:14 get something like lemure castle etc 09:22:51 for some reason, I have been trying to play nlarn for several previous hours. 09:23:12 Zaba: Probably for the same reason you don't use screen and think dtach is the beginning and the end of awesome 09:23:29 Or should I say: "you claim not to use screen" 09:23:34 I mean, how do we really know 09:23:44 For all I know you wallow in screen 24x7 09:23:50 And pretend to be screen-free on IRC 09:23:52 http://sprunge.us/QBCQ 09:24:13 Anybody can doctor a ps listing :P 09:24:47 hm, now I should prove that I can't. 09:30:15 * due still awake. 09:30:26 due, what timezone are you in, again? 09:30:34 GMT+10. 09:39:19 -!- dbrodale has joined ##crawl-dev 09:40:30 hullo! 09:40:34 You'rer in the right channel now :) 09:41:27 I'm not sure many people are around right now, though. 09:41:35 greensnark was talking earlier. 09:41:52 welcome! 09:41:53 @players 09:41:54 nubinia (L19 @ D:19, T:78263), minced (L15 @ Hive:2, T:31327), Eifeltrampel (L12 @ Orc:2, T:22982), felirx (L11 @ Lair:4, T:24554), morf (L11 @ Lair:2, T:15320), Baraton (L10 @ Lair:1, T:11071), orb (L10 @ Lair:2, T:22644), noom (L9 @ D:10, T:10324), Lemuel (L4 @ D:4, T:2989), Xiberia (L2 @ D:2, T:1485), soul (L2 @ D:2, T:1061), DashNine (L1 @ D:1, T:0), Disco (L1 @ D:1, T:0) 09:42:01 just updating colloquy to the proper channel 09:42:06 dpeg is offline? Hm. 09:42:17 greensnark is busy evangalizing nethack players :) 09:43:08 * Adeon gives suspicious looks to everyone 09:43:17 Hey 09:43:23 bhaak: Well, you started it :P 09:43:32 I was being nice and quiet and you had to make that crack about acquirement :P 09:43:34 greensnark can evangelize me! 09:43:52 please, no dirty talk in this channel! 09:44:01 Can you believe bhaak was trying to claim wishing is better than acquiremnet :P 09:44:22 My concise response to that is usually "hahaha", but since I was dealing with NH players I had to expand on that a bit :P 09:44:22 and there he goes misquoting me, like dpeg does! 09:44:26 that kind of humour is probably lost on whoever frequents the channel where this happened 09:45:15 I should try sleeping again 09:45:24 bhaak: I'll admit I broke my no-Crawl-evangelism-in-other-channels rule :/ 09:45:35 i said: "i wonder why nethack player don't run screaming from crawl as soon as they learn that crawl only has lame "aquirement" instead of powerful wishes :)" 09:45:46 greensnark: i don't mind the traffic :) 09:47:47 bhaak: Oh, good :) 09:48:24 why can't we inscribe monsters? 09:48:58 right now I'd love to give my cute small abomination a name 09:49:04 by: Add it! 09:49:22 but it might be nice in general -- autoinscribe jellies with a hit warning or such 09:49:39 Ugh :P 09:49:45 it does confirm the fact that the player can distinguish monsters 09:49:55 greensnark: I don't think that's really useful :) 09:49:56 Individual monsters? 09:50:13 due: yes, I was thinking of individual monsters 09:50:28 'lenny the small abomination'? :) 09:51:57 due: or small abomination {lenny}; goblin {darts of flame} 09:52:08 Cute! 09:52:09 * due sleep. 09:52:44 there could be monster autoinscriptions that place exclusions 10:07:36 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 10:18:52 strange message order when freezing (and killing) cold-blooded monsters (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1529) by rob 10:24:48 -!- casmith789 has joined ##crawl-dev 10:29:13 Cryp71c: maybe the cleanest way to add the aux unarmed effects like bleeding would be a new virtual weapon brand for each? 10:29:24 I imagine they might work similarly to the vampiric bites 10:31:06 i.e., SPWPN_BLEED, SPWPN_STUN, etc, and replace weapon_brand with these if the appropriate demonspawn mutation is present 10:38:25 -!- by has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 11:00:33 -!- cbus has joined ##crawl-dev 11:22:19 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:23:41 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 11:55:15 -!- Spads has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:59:28 -!- dbrodale has quit [Quit: dbrodale] 12:19:24 rax: "strip out details"? 12:20:45 sorear: There are obviously specific details that world+dog does not need to know 12:21:15 -!- Spads has joined ##crawl-dev 12:24:15 sorear, do you know if you (or who) added the extra code to spines that returns if no damage is done to the player? 12:25:33 In particular the Internet doesn't need to know about my billing relationship with my colo provider. 12:28:39 -!- Spads has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:29:14 Cryp71c: man git-blame 12:29:43 poisonous cloud grayed when enemies still in sight (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1530) by minced 12:30:01 -!- Spads has joined ##crawl-dev 12:32:59 !tell by I just looked back over the unarmed aux code and realized that the reason trolls and ghouls (and anyone else, now) are getting extra punches when completely unarmed is that the old code (illogically) checked for the presence of a weapon (thus, having no weapon did not allow for UNAT_PUNCH to go through as a valid aux attack). 12:32:59 Maximum message length is 300 characters. Eschew verbosity, Gladys! 12:33:22 !tell by I just looked back over the unarmed aux code and realized that the reason trolls and ghouls (and anyone else, now) are getting extra punches when completely unarmed is that the old code (illogically) checked for the presence of a weapon. 12:33:22 Cryp71c: OK, I'll let by know. 12:33:57 !tell by The current paradigm makes more sense (your off-hand is free if you're not wielding a weapon) but has balance implications, as you talked to me about before. 12:33:58 Cryp71c: OK, I'll let by know. 12:34:30 I must tell sartak sometime how much I dig the "Eschew verbosity, Gladys" bit 12:34:39 It always makes me laugh 12:37:55 -!- Spads has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:37:59 Xiberia has polluted my game, second Xiberia's ghost :( 12:39:11 Good xp 12:39:20 just wait felirx 12:39:23 got more coming for you 12:40:13 Xiberia: That was quick 12:40:22 But I think felirx has crossed that level 12:40:47 i guess i should keep myself alive a bit longer then 12:41:10 and i guess i should start making mephing ghosts 12:57:52 -!- ogaz has joined ##crawl-dev 13:32:29 sorear, you mentioned briefly yesterday about monstrous selection being in a separate function, given the concerns I !tell'd you, did you have any recommendation on a better implementation? 13:37:37 -!- by has joined ##crawl-dev 13:45:11 by, yo, left you some messages about the aux unarmed changes and punch getting extra attacks. 13:45:24 by, btw, yes adding virtual weapon brands sounds like a good approach. 14:44:59 !messages 14:44:59 (1/2) Cryp71c said (2h 11m 37s ago): I just looked back over the unarmed aux code and realized that the reason trolls and ghouls (and anyone else, now) are getting extra punches when completely unarmed is that the old code (illogically) checked for the presence of a weapon. 14:45:19 !messages 14:45:19 (1/1) Cryp71c said (2h 11m 21s ago): The current paradigm makes more sense (your off-hand is free if you're not wielding a weapon) but has balance implications, as you talked to me about before. 14:46:17 Cryp71c: auxiliary punches are just the off-hand punches 14:46:27 by, right 14:46:44 unarmed players get a main punching attack through a different code path 14:47:01 but I may be misunderstanding you 14:47:27 by, Yeah I think so. In the old code to check if a player got an aux punch it checked for weapon && hands != HANDS_TWO 14:47:48 by, this new code checks for !weapon || hands != HANDS_TWO 14:48:03 I didn't know if you had identified the source of the extra punch attacks or not. 14:51:33 ah, looks like a bug 14:51:44 thanks 14:54:03 by, You want to modify apply_aux to pass in the unarmed_attack_type or may I? 14:54:26 go ahead 14:54:41 though maybe setting weapon_brand would suffice? 14:55:02 -!- rohan has joined ##crawl-dev 14:55:12 re that check, the old code seemed to check weapon && hands == HANDS_TWO 14:55:21 so it's correct after all 14:55:55 the extra off-hand punches I was talking about are those introduced in babaa983a81 14:56:34 I wanted to redo f8e183739 there, since I had reverted it prior to rewrite 14:56:44 but babaa983a is not really part of the rewrite 14:57:24 what it does is give players with claws additional off-hand punches when baseattack is not an off-hand punch 14:57:50 so chance to get an off-hand punch goes from 1/4 to 1/4 + 3/4*1/4 14:58:30 that's 25% to 44% 14:59:19 by, right, I thought you were concerned about the frequency of giving those extra aux punches for characters who are fighting with no weapon and no shield (both hands free)? 14:59:33 er, not about the frequency, but giving those extra aux punches at all 14:59:42 yes 15:00:01 The old (old) code did not give any aux punches when fighting completely unarmed, nor did mine. 15:00:06 but not just with both hands free 15:00:23 the old code did give such punches, sure 15:02:02 I see now that your patch gave extra punches only when wielding a weapon, but why? 15:02:24 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 15:02:29 !seen by 15:02:30 I last saw by at Tue May 11 20:02:02 2010 UTC (28s ago) saying I see now that your patch gave extra punches only when wielding a weapon, but why? on ##crawl-dev. 15:02:59 by: would you reply Mark Mackey's question on r.g.r.m? I believe the answer is: "Yes, I did this two weeks ago." :) 15:03:01 by, bug, I had made the appropriate change to check weapon == null. The old code didn't give extra punches to players with claws 15:03:31 s/extra punches/aux punches 15:04:05 nowait, I was right, extra punches (the only punches you could get with claws were if you had rolled UNAT_PUNCH to be the baseattack 15:04:12 Cryp71c: one the aux is sorted out, we should start thinking about DS mut balance. 15:04:31 Cryp71c: yes, the only punches you could ever get were through baseattack 15:04:34 dpeg, with what specific regard? just in general 15:04:41 this is independent of whether the player has claws 15:04:45 by, right, sorry I had misinterpretted the code for a second. 15:05:34 Cryp71c: lots of finetuning: I told you about the guardian. Do we want to distinguish freezing aura more from spines? Is Regeneration still needed with PbD around? etc. 15:05:38 and f8e18373932 and my version add "extra" aux punches (with the difference that yours are restricted to weapon wielders) 15:06:11 dpeg, Yeah I have spent a bit of time looking around the monster level up code to see if it might be expanded to include demons, but then that might inadvertently lead to demon-evolution, so to speak, in the wild. 15:06:59 dpeg, spines already checks evasion, ac, and doesn't do damage unless damage is done to you (seems quite weak now, because of that last one). We can remove regeneration, but in its place I HAVE to add at least one tier 1 mutation. 15:07:10 Cryp71c: we don't need demon evolutionin the first place... that's a gimmick for later. The most important (and also quite cool) thing will be to link the guardian to tension, making it *unlike* an ally. 15:07:27 Cryp71c: maybe the baseattack aux punches are enough also for demonspawn with claws? bleeding could be added anyway. I could just revert babaa98 15:07:34 dpeg, so temporary guardian(s) when tension is high? 15:07:39 yes, but later 15:07:51 Do the aux attacks first, sorry for interrupting,. 15:07:59 dpeg, np, by and I were just discussing it. 15:08:04 dpeg: don't worry, not urgent 15:08:42 by, perhaps, from the base ideas dpeg had mentioned about bleeding, I'm not sure the extra punches are necessary for anyone with claws. Bleeding sounds to be quite powerful, if I understand dpeg's idea for it. 15:08:55 ok, will revert that then 15:09:49 dpeg, am also trying to come up with some more mutations to add in at the weakest (tier 3) mutation level. 15:09:57 er, s/ tier 3/ tier 1 15:10:48 by: you asked about the aux changes.... 15:11:16 Not sure if we ever made this public. The idea is that kicks, claws, hooves etc. should work differently in combat. 15:11:27 Different in playing style, not just numbers or messages. 15:11:30 dpeg, I quietly slipped it into ??unarmed combat[4] 15:11:44 ah thanks. that saves me some keystrokes 15:11:49 by: did you read that? 15:11:54 ??unarmed combat[4] 15:11:54 I don't have a page labeled unarmed_combat[4] in my learndb. 15:11:58 ??uc 15:11:58 unarmed combat[1/3]: Fighting without a weapon. 3+UC base damage (+6 Tr, +2 Gh, +2 per claws level, +X for forms); delay 10 - UC/5; +2 to hit (+4 Tr/Gh). If you have an EV penalty (such as by wearing a shield, or armor (reduced somewhat by armor skill)), attack speed will be slowed to 10 occasionally, the rate being based on how high your penalty is. 15:12:03 ??unarmed combat[3] 15:12:04 auxiliary unarmed[1/4]: Auxiliary unarmed attacks are /extra/ melee attacks using body parts. You can get auxiliary unarmed attacks by having hooves, horns, talons, fangs, a beak, or a large muscular tail, or by having non-zero Unarmed Combat skill. 15:12:08 ... 15:12:10 where'd it go? 15:12:20 The db is ENDLESS. 15:12:22 ah there it is 15:12:22 -!- rohan has left ##crawl-dev 15:12:23 ??auxiliary unarmed[4] 15:12:23 auxiliary unarmed[4/4]: (Coming Soon) Unarmed attacks have additional effects, if conditions are met: Headbutt - Ministun ; Claw - Bleed effect ; Hooves - Ignore AC on kicks ; More to come in the future 15:12:25 :) 15:12:38 But it has very good tourist guides. 15:12:56 ok 15:12:57 Xiberia: fancy a job leading tourists through the Abyss? 15:13:02 Additional ideas include constriction (if we ever implement tentacles as a mutation) and so forth. 15:13:18 dpeg: and these should apply to everybody? 15:13:27 dpeg, as long as my safety is guaranteed, why not! 15:13:35 Xiberia: huh? :) 15:13:45 by: well, Cryp71c's idea (he came up with that) was to have only DS claws cause bleeding. 15:14:07 But then I wondered why we should do that... It's much better to have all claws cause bleeding, too. 15:14:29 Also saves having overlapping mutations JUST for demonspawn (DS claws) 15:14:47 dpeg, you still on board for having all headbutts cause a ministun, and horns increases that ministun? 15:14:55 or having horns is what causes the ministun? 15:15:01 I came up with some quick and informal mechanic for bleeding, should run it by you: bleeding has levels (like poison) BUT damage is relative to current hp (i.e. never deadly); it will reliably run out. 15:15:09 it could be implemented for anything, and still be restricted later 15:15:14 (want to make sure that Bleed and Pois are different beasts) 15:15:32 dpeg: should claws also give bleeding for the non-aux unarmed attack? 15:15:53 by: of course, people will ask for bleeding from edged weapons right away (and I don't mind) but diversification of the unarmed attacks seemed more important for a start. 15:15:59 I wouldn't be averted to that, it makes sacrificing a shield to fight with your claw aux attacks worthwhile. 15:15:59 by: I'd say so, yes. 15:16:15 I think we should implement this as a (virtual) weapon brand 15:16:21 aha 15:17:15 by: just so we're on equal terms, let me mention hooves: these should have a chance (various possible ways how) to bypass AC (better). Would that fit into virtual brand, too? I'd think so. 15:17:15 -!- syllogism has quit [] 15:17:21 dpeg, do you mean that damage will be a product of charges and current hp left, as in bleeding damage gets lower the lower the monsters hp gets? 15:17:38 I guess so 15:17:41 Xiberia, idk what you're meaning in "charges" but yes. 15:17:57 charges as in more bleeding applied 15:17:58 (that was re dpeg) 15:18:04 Xiberia, bleed would do damage based on the effected monster/player's current hp 15:18:11 Xiberia, you mean duration 15:18:18 I think? 15:18:18 Xiberia: some numbers off the top of my hat: bleed has a level (usually between 1 and 3, say). If you bleed, you lose a random amount between 0 and current-HP*level/10 health. Okay? 15:18:36 yeah 15:18:39 Every new level of bleedings could add 3+d3 turns of bleeding. 15:19:06 wouldn't it kind of make more sense if the damage started out low and the increased as the wounds got worse 15:19:14 more gashes and the such 15:19:36 So Poison has random ending (potentially infinite) and absolute damage; bleeding has guaranteed end and relative damage. Also, there's no resistance against bleeding. 15:19:54 a - Packung Pflaster 15:19:58 it wouldn't make much sense for bleeding to work on undead, I think 15:20:02 ogaz: sure 15:20:11 or zombies, or constructs 15:20:18 idk if zombies are undead... 15:20:19 what about demons 15:20:25 we already check blood for vampires anyway, no problem 15:20:30 demons can bleed 15:20:37 cant they? 15:20:42 I don't know 15:20:46 really gray zone here 15:20:46 haha 15:20:48 idk what conceptualization of demons crawl works off of. 15:20:53 What about acidic J? 15:21:05 @??Jelly 15:21:06 jelly (04J) | Speed: 9 | HD: 3 | Health: 15-30 | AC/EV: 0/2 | Damage: 808(acid:7d3) | Flags: amphibious, see invisible | Res: 06magic(12), 03poison, 08acid+++, asphyx | XP: 21. 15:21:10 bleeding for solid J would make sense 15:21:14 if there are any 15:21:16 ogaz: it doesn't matter -- these questions have been answered already, and we use those answers. 15:21:31 of course, there' 15:21:48 s then gimmicks like bleeding monsters sometimes leaving blod drops on the ground etc. 15:22:01 jellies have no blood, save for black puddings, which happen to be not present in Crawl 15:22:09 btw, 100 Rogues seems to have a headstart 15:22:12 and their blood is stale, too 15:22:27 KiloByte: and we'd rather keep the puddings out, right? 15:22:37 i hate black pudding 15:22:41 keep em out! 15:23:20 dpeg: okay, wasn't sure which monsters would be bleeding 15:23:29 I ate it twice in my life, and I remember both times damn well. It was a damn traumatic thing. 15:24:15 by "keep out" I meant out of the game, referencing Nethack :) 15:25:05 KiloByte, i've eaten it dozens of time 15:25:10 its common food here in sweden 15:25:12 by: thanks for rgrm reply! 15:25:29 by, if we ever expand these effects (ministuns, bleeding, etc.) out to weapons, there will be huge issues with weapons that have brands, correct? 15:25:43 Xiberia: this qualifies you to guide tourists through Pan as well! 15:26:20 wonderful 15:26:35 Cryp71c: not sure. Why couldn't a weapon have several egos, some of them implicit? 15:26:36 Cryp71c: the effects would be restricted to weapons that get that brand 15:26:44 (like "slashes" for bladed weapons) 15:26:54 dpeg: is this planned eventually? 15:27:08 by: I am not saying this. 15:27:39 There are no plans on this right now, but it seems a quite natural proposal (in terms of realism). No idea if it's any good in terms of balance. 15:27:40 the alternative would be to go through the damage type 15:27:42 Evenings! 15:27:46 Hi! 15:27:50 eg, DVORP_SLASHING, DVORP_CRUSHING 15:28:17 by, IF we ever implement bleed for weapon, I didn't know if a weapon could have multiple brands (in the code), if not, then you have overlap with weapons that should be flaming and also cause bleeding. 15:28:18 I think it would be fine to have say short blades of bleeding that couldn't also be vorpal 15:28:31 by, ok that's what I was bringing up. 15:28:47 I think we shouldn't worry about it at this point 15:29:03 dpeg: Good iteration/clean-up on the weapon perks page, it's readable now! :) 15:30:18 yes, not to worry right now 15:30:34 Keskitalo: thank you, must have been some days ago, because I cannot remember doing anything there. 15:30:39 by, SPWPN_EVASION ? 15:30:55 it would be easy enough to switch from brand to damage type if necessary 15:30:58 Cryp71c: hmm? 15:30:59 by, nvm. 15:31:12 by, I hadn't ever seen a weapon of evasion, was curious / confused. 15:31:23 think they're new, launcher only? 15:32:00 Also, it's probably not such a bad idea to do weapon differentiation only after unarmed attacks. The latter is easier (design-wise) in my opinion and we can learn from that and see later if weapons should follow (e.g. with bleeding, maces being similar to hooves etc.) 15:32:19 Cryp71c: for launchers 15:32:39 dpeg: Yeah, you asked me to check it out days ago. :) I may have some additional ideas, for example for knockback: I agree with other comments that knockback moving monsters is sometimes undesirable, so it's not a good passive perk. What I had in mind was that if the monster that gets knocked back has a wall or a monster behind it, it would get additional damage. 15:33:57 Keskitalo: incidentally, this is something I read about *today* on the 100 Rogues forum (only spent minutes there). 15:33:57 dpeg: i.e. it gets knocked against a wall. It *might* make mace-users position themselves a little differently sometimes. 15:34:04 Ha, awesome. :) 15:34:06 Keskitalo: good point 15:34:11 I am fine with that 15:34:40 it would also be okay if knockback made the target not act freely in the next turn. 15:35:05 We want to avoid knocking back a yaktaur (say), who then shoots the player. 15:35:17 Actually, if it knocked monsters into monsters, that would happen a lot in a normal corridor-camping, so walls only would be better. 15:35:24 Keskitalo: absolutely 15:35:28 by, for naming the SPWPN for ministun, would it make more sense to name it SPWPN_MINISTUN or give it a proper name that alludes to the ministun property? 15:35:28 dpeg: Well, I wouldn't move the monsters at all. 15:35:59 Keskitalo: ah! I always thought that knockback looks like this: ..@O.. --> ..@.O. 15:36:09 dpeg, yeah that's how I was imagining it 15:36:40 I'd go with SPWPN_STUN probably, but your choice 15:36:47 dpeg: Yeah, I was saying that's not always desirable for the player, and the passive moves should always be a bonus, so that melee keeps being straightforward. (cleave should just skip jellies for instance) 15:37:43 Well, I need to go to sleep.. cheers! I'll add my thought and some ideas (not all of them very good :)) to the perk page. 15:37:49 Keskitalo: yes, I think I mentioned that in the article? Skipping automatically is better than forcing players to use Ctrl or * (although there will *still* be situations where you want to attack cautiously, so the possibility has to be there). 15:37:55 Keskitalo: cool, thanks 15:38:30 btw, my current DSFi^Y has the passive ice attack, and I am always standing in the middle of the room now. It's so cool :) 15:38:59 dpeg, I'm waiting for someone to get passive freeze and spines :P 15:39:28 Cryp71c, done already 15:39:32 local, however 15:39:43 Cryp71c: this shouldn't be possible, of course. That's also why I asked ^^ whether we want more distinction between spines and passive freeze. 15:39:43 and pre-spines nerf 15:39:47 so a bad representation 15:40:30 maybe make passive freeze periodic instead of a counter attack proc 15:41:25 dpeg, why not possible? and the distinction is pretty significant, the only thing they share is that they both do damage-on-hit, other than that passive freeze does cold damage (resistable), causes mini stun, and does not check player evp or a few other things ; spines checks player evp, only does damage, can be dodged, and only does damage when damage is done to the player. 15:41:42 btw I've heard a couple times that spines is underwhelming because of the changes that prevent it from doing any damage if the attacking creature didn't do any damage. 15:42:15 Cryp71c: hadn't spines since then... 15:42:33 Cryp71c: okay, so they are differentiated enough. But do you really want both of them on your DS? 15:42:37 dpeg, I think I've had it once, but died before I could get a feel for it. 15:42:50 dpeg, Not sure, would look awefully cool, I suppose. 15:42:56 s/look/be 15:43:04 well, that's what testing and tweaking is about 15:43:18 my DSFi also has potion protection and I find it to be extremely valuable 15:43:29 perhaps I am too conservative in this, but it's a good property imo 15:44:08 Speaking of the fire / ice facets, I continually find that the fire facets are both weaker than the ice facets and are a tier higher. 15:45:29 I never have them, for some reason. 15:45:31 put hellfire resistance(not necessarily immunity) at the top of one of the fire facets. 15:45:49 ogaz: --> wiki :] 15:46:02 Cryp71c, imo make fire and ice facets similar tier and mutually exclusive 15:46:02 hellfire resistance would be nice, I think. 15:46:30 Xiberia, they should be mutually exclusive, but its a bit tough to test atm 15:47:17 Cryp71c, not really 15:47:17 Cryp71c: it occurred to me that DS testing will be done by players: we'll know after a few weeks which body mutation (for example) is considered worst :) 15:47:28 dpeg, yeah 15:47:33 roll up a lot of DS and wiz them up to 27 15:47:38 see if they ever overlap 15:49:19 Xiberia, if I did 100 of those (which would be a colossal waste of time), and never got any overlapp between the elemental facets, that doesn't prove that they don't overlap. Just means either its exceedingly uncommon for them to overlap or that I didn't roll enough DS to find the overlapping circumstances. 15:49:31 antennas are great at least 15:49:39 then again, tehy are the only useful thing a caster can get 15:49:42 Xiberia, that methodology is called proof by something...I can't think of the word...but its not an acceptable methodology of proving 15:50:00 felirx: that's not true 15:50:08 felirx: of the body muts you mean? 15:50:12 of course 15:50:42 felirx: hm, that is true. Do you have ideas for less blunt body mutations? And yes, they're a cool idea. Whose was it, anyway? 15:50:54 blunt? 15:51:02 I had originally come up with the idea of a non-combat body facet 15:51:12 but Antennae and webbed feet were the only ones I could muster at the time :) 15:51:17 Cryp71c: all body mutations apart from antenna are about combat 15:51:31 you could tie some silly things to it 15:51:39 like horns getting +INT which makes on sense ;D 15:51:44 dpeg, right, I thought that's what you were talking about 15:51:54 mandibles, lets you eat during combat 15:52:00 Cryp71c: what are webbed feet doing? My mental picture is always "dpeg, the demon duck", which doesn't feel fully right. 15:52:18 there could be wings, of course 15:52:19 dpeg, rofl, they weren't ever implemented, just a brainstorming idea on the wiki that didn't get anywhere. 15:52:32 dpeg, but they were water-walking / swimming based, not a very good idea in retrospect. 15:52:49 there's some stealthy feet mutation, not sure if it's DS 15:52:50 Cryp71c: yes, I recall. What's the current feet mutation? 15:52:56 dpeg, been thinking about non-flight wing evolution, since I imagine we'd want to avoid overlap with kenku and draconian and whoever else can fly with wings. 15:53:01 dpeg, only hooves and talons 15:53:07 ah, padded feet -- "dpeg, the demon panda" 15:53:15 s/evolution/mutation 15:53:24 ah yes and padded feet 15:53:24 Cryp71c: yes, not so sure about the wings either 15:54:12 Anybody proposed DS with tentacles yet 15:54:21 dpeg, the only ideas I could come up with were to provide a "Wing Buffet" type ability which causes knockback (super knockback to flying creatures), and the ability to "Shield" yourself with your wings, taking reduced damage but being unable to move or perform most other actions. 15:54:26 They could be irresistibly attractive to kraken and tentacled monstrosities 15:54:48 greensnark, yeah It was mentioned :) should make a good addition to aux attack effects. 15:54:52 constriction, that is. 15:54:59 greensnark: they would be able to ride kraken! 15:55:06 lol 15:55:10 Kraken, the water mount 15:55:16 by: can you imagine anyone wants to write riding code? :) 15:55:17 with fedhas, you could ride them to zot 15:55:27 by: so beautiful :) 15:55:28 yay! Zot kraken 15:56:01 for a start, we need sirens riding kraken 15:56:15 by, then we have to put in orcs riding wargs 15:56:24 by, and then Kirke on a Hog! 15:56:35 what about snapping turtles riding alligator snapping turtles? 15:56:43 riding the heads? 15:56:46 I put a snapping turtle on your snapping turtle, so it can snap while it snaps. 15:56:48 double reach? 15:57:02 It's turtles all the way down? 15:57:05 yes 15:57:25 "The tower of 325 snapping turtles moves forward." 15:57:28 you should be able to mount a friendly snapping turtle on a polearm of reaching 15:58:06 lol "You extend the polearm of reaching the snapping turtle on the polearm of reaching reaches out and snaps the kobold." 15:58:08 Summon Small Mammals should combo with Portal Projectile 15:58:13 I think we need extended message support 15:58:18 Oh wait, we already have Haunt :( 15:58:33 Summon Small Mammals should combo with IOOD 15:58:33 We could split that in two spells, H and Aunt. 15:59:00 greensnark: how? 15:59:01 "The aunt hisses. The aunt bites. The aunt claws. The aunt will not give you sweets today. You die." 15:59:11 gah I can't think of a good name for the SPWPN of hooves....Crushing would've worked nicely, but that's the mace-implementation of vorpal. 15:59:13 casmith789: I don't know, but I think something can be worked out :P 15:59:14 if you summon a chain lightning to freezing cloud vapors, it should explode in a storm of the century! 15:59:34 Cryp71c: SPWPN_CLOMP 15:59:40 felirx, no, it should instead say "Nashville floods. You've caused 11 million in damages!" 16:00:08 clomp, such an awesome word. 16:01:36 Cryp71c: How about Trampling? 16:02:04 clomp is good, isn't it? 16:02:17 Mu_: you here? 16:03:38 Madtrixr, eh, trampling is misleading, clomp will do 16:04:06 Well, except clomp doesn't explain why a hoof attack would bypass AC.. 16:04:11 TRAMPLE is for size difference of GIANT-TINY :) 16:05:16 actually, dragon form uses "trample on" for high damage attacks against medium or smaller monsters 16:05:17 dpeg: ye 16:06:01 That apart, is there any compensation to prevent uber-DS ruling the dungeon? 16:06:07 Because I can't see any :P 16:06:18 make them start on shoals:5 16:06:18 They're getting all the fun stuff, but nothing to counterbalance it 16:06:34 I say DG apts 16:06:36 they did get a 9% aptitude increase 16:06:54 they had DG apts all along mostly 16:06:57 I endorse any injection of players into Shoals:5 before they're disgracefully overprepared 16:07:00 !apt DG 16:07:01 DG: Air=110, Armour=110, Axes=110, Bows=110, Conj=110, Xbows=110, Dodge=110, Earth=110, Ench=110, Evo=80, Exp=160*, Fighting=110, Fire=110, Ice=110, Inv=80, Long=110, Maces=110, Nec=110, Poison=110, Polearms=110, Shields=110, Short=110, Slings=110, Splcast=140, Stab=110, Staves=110, Stealth=110, Summ=110, Throw=110, Tloc=110, Tmut=110, Traps=110, Unarmed=110 16:07:06 !apt ds 16:07:07 !apt DS 16:07:07 DS: Air=110, Armour=110, Axes=110, Bows=110, Conj=100, Xbows=110, Dodge=110, Earth=110, Ench=110, Evo=80, Exp=140, Fighting=100, Fire=100, Ice=110, Inv=60!, Long=110, Maces=110, Nec=90, Poison=100, Polearms=110, Shields=110, Short=110, Slings=110, Splcast=130, Stab=110, Staves=110, Stealth=110, Summ=100, Throw=110, Tloc=110, Tmut=110, Traps=110, Unarmed=110 16:07:07 DS: Air=110, Armour=110, Axes=110, Bows=110, Conj=100, Xbows=110, Dodge=110, Earth=110, Ench=110, Evo=80, Exp=140, Fighting=100, Fire=100, Ice=110, Inv=60!, Long=110, Maces=110, Nec=90, Poison=100, Polearms=110, Shields=110, Short=110, Slings=110, Splcast=130, Stab=110, Staves=110, Stealth=110, Summ=100, Throw=110, Tloc=110, Tmut=110, Traps=110, Unarmed=110 16:07:10 Oh right 16:07:13 Ok, worse apts :P 16:07:23 they could get fighting bumped to -1 16:07:32 I don't see why they need to have good apts and all the fun stuff 16:08:04 greensnark: they are crippled by not being able to follow good gods. 16:08:09 dpeg: :P 16:08:10 hah 16:08:23 I should really win a Zin game some time :P 16:08:27 Although dolorous' undead reformist god will come to the rescue! 16:08:31 Just to prove that I can take it :) 16:09:00 Are the Zin improvements planned for anytime soon? 16:09:02 Poor Zin 16:09:13 There should be 100 bonus points for the first Zin win in the tournament. 16:09:27 greensnark: dolorous sent me two emails about zin today :) 16:09:54 Zin winners could get coupons for extra troves in their next game 16:10:13 dpeg: Nice, Zin needs help :) 16:10:19 lol, redeemable in local games, using wizmode. 16:12:25 dolorous: "I've been looking into implementing the Imprison power for Zin, and 16:12:28 since it's essentially an elaborated version of Tomb of Doroklohe, the 16:12:30 code for the latter can be reused." 16:13:01 If only minced would upload Ashenzari :( 16:13:35 Zin imprisonment should use ivory walls 16:13:40 Or maybe mother-of-pearl bars 16:13:42 What about SPWPN_CONCUSSIVE 16:13:53 mother-of-pearl? 16:13:54 I think it's probably good if Ashenzari isn't uploaded before 0.7 is branched 16:14:06 by: yes, seems like it. 16:14:10 dpeg: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother-of-pearl 16:14:20 who is ashenzari? 16:14:27 Cryp71c: YOUR FATHER 16:14:30 Oh sorry 16:14:36 greensnark: ? 16:14:55 dpeg: Sorry, misplaced Darth Vader reference :P 16:15:05 is the Div god, I think 16:15:09 Also doy's bot 16:15:12 greensnark: I've been reading some book. Let me ask you a question: How many gods are there? 16:15:19 -!- nrook has joined ##crawl-dev 16:15:20 dpeg: 0.0 16:15:29 now, that's obviously wrong 16:15:33 We have a full pantheon 16:15:39 Oh, you mean in Crawl? 16:15:43 I thought you meant real gods 16:15:46 haha 16:15:55 new commit visulization: http://nethack-de.sf.net/code_swarm_crawl2.mpg 16:16:18 bhaak is into highly evolved space aliens and commit visualization 16:16:24 Kinky 16:16:44 03by * r7ac0769da3c6 10/crawl-ref/source/fight.cc: Revert "Make MUT_CLAWS give extra unarmed aux attacks." 16:16:54 I read about Hinduism, and there's this idle talk about the gods (master and pupil). And the numbers go 33.333, 3333, 300, 60, etc., 6, 3, 1.5 (!!!), 1. 16:17:13 greensnark: this week end I'm going 3D, that's kinky! 16:17:25 dpeg: What can I say? Hindus are smoking crack :P 16:18:21 greensnark: since 2k BC? :) 16:18:24 by, if we use damage_brand to pass along the virtual weapon brand, we'll have to write helper functions to determine the "level" of the weapon brand (level of hooves, level of claws, etc.) 16:18:40 by, is that acceptable, coupled with using damage_brand ? 16:18:54 dpeg: Lots of crack to go around! 16:19:34 Cryp71c: hmm 16:20:09 if the level really is required, and this can't work off damage dealt, going with weapon_brand is probably not a good idea 16:20:23 greensnark: learned a lot about brahmins, dharma, dalits and whatnot. From the perspective of living in a system where propaganda and indoctrination (socialism style) didn't even work for a couple of generations, those reincarnation weirdos know their stuff so much better. This is how you run (and ruin) peoples! 16:20:26 dpeg: You really should read Zelazny's Lord of Light 16:20:35 greensnark: no time, have to read about Hinduism. 16:20:55 dpeg: Lord of Light has characters based on the Hindu gods :) 16:20:57 lord of light is about hinduism 16:21:00 It's also a very fine story :) 16:21:24 I happen to visit a book store tomorrow. But I'll bet they won't have the English edition. 16:21:24 And if you can read House of Leaves :P 16:21:30 You can read a little Zelazny :P 16:21:37 greensnark: I did read House of leaves :) 16:21:41 dpeg: I know :P 16:21:45 oops 16:22:10 dpeg: I have an english edition here in berlin, if you want 16:22:21 by: yes, sure 16:23:23 by, it *could* work off damage delt, but then the effects would either be really unnoticable at low UC skill or you would have HUGE bleed / stun / ac bypass effects at high UC skill / high mutation level. 16:25:04 slaying and other +dmg effects would also increase the aux effects, if the power of aux effects is based off damage...that's a small nuance, but a nuance none the less. 16:27:35 by, on the other hand, if we used damage_brand and then added damage_power, it would open the door to brand-spells gaining strength (actual damage) with power, instead of just duration. Could also scale damage brand power inversely with weapon speed (so an executioner's axe of flaming is similarly valuable to a quick blade of flaming). 16:28:00 IDK if those are desirable things, or simply too much hassle for such a small implementation at the immediate moment. 16:28:24 Just thinking in chat, atm. 16:31:01 dpeg, you're still on the "won't change" track with this BR, correct ? https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1465 16:31:12 (want to know before I close it and flag it as such) 16:31:58 Cryp71c: no idea at the moment; if we require the player to invest in UC to benefit, that's probably not such a bad thing; or, could also increase the effect claws level has on damage dealt; or just use a different approach than the weapon_brand and check attack type and mutation level directly 16:32:17 your call, we'll see how it works out 16:32:56 Cryp71c: for most brands, brand damage is already scaled to base damage, so an exec axe of flaming does the same proportion of extra damage compared to a quick blade 16:33:24 Cryp71c: only three brands are not scaled: pain, distortion and elec 16:34:49 bhaak, what is this commit visualization, precisely? 16:36:10 KiloByte, ah, I wasn't aware of that..is it somewhere in the learndb? Given ##crawl 's perception of how most brands work, I think that might come as somewhat of a surprise (I bet if asked, the majority would think that a quickblade of flaming is more useful than a exec axe of flaming because of attack delay) 16:36:26 ??flaming 16:36:27 flaming[1/1]: Increases damage by (on average) 25% against non-fire-resistant monsters, or 50% on vulnerable monsters. Slicing/chopping flaming weapons will cauterize hydra head stumps, preventing them from regrowing. 16:36:37 KiloByte, nevermind, yes its in learndb 16:36:47 I think you're wrong on that, Cryp71c. I think most know how it works 16:38:25 Yeah, ??flaming is definitely accurate, it must've just been my misconception. 16:39:03 Cryp71c: the circles are files and for every commit a dev make that touches them, the circles get pushed towards the dev. http://vis.cs.ucdavis.edu/~ogawa/codeswarm/ 16:39:08 by, hmmm, k. if UC skill would affect damage added by mutations, that would have to be carefully capped, otherwise claws would be devalued early and become even MORE problematic later on. 16:39:28 bhaak, yeah I saw the dates in the bottom right, after watching for a few minutes it makes more sense, quite nice! 16:40:01 !learn edit flaming[1] s|,or.*monsters|, 50% on rF-, still 12.5% on rF+, 0 on rF+++| 16:40:02 No change because the regex failed to match. 16:40:18 !learn edit flaming[1] s|, or.*monsters|, 50% on rF-, still 12.5% on rF+, 0 on rF+++| 16:40:19 flaming[1/1]: Increases damage by (on average) 25% against non-fire-resistant monsters, 50% on rF-, still 12.5% on rF+, 0 on rF+++. Slicing/chopping flaming weapons will cauterize hydra head stumps, preventing them from regrowing. 16:40:54 Cryp71c: replied 16:41:03 bhaak, bahah! the amount of commits bouncing around october of last year is crazy 16:41:20 generally, since the git transition 16:41:43 although it slowed down a bit recently, sadly 16:42:23 you get dizzy from looking too long at it :) 16:46:37 hehe :) 16:47:43 -!- epyon has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:48:25 dpeg, thanks, closing ; leaving it as-is where attacks only proc spines if they're 1-square away, regardless of unarmed or armed 16:48:57 bhaak: Nice visualisation 16:49:16 zelgadis' entry scared me 16:50:15 what is the bouncing back and forth? recently edited lines? 16:50:45 by: < bhaak> Cryp71c: the circles are files and for every commit a dev make that touches them, the circles get pushed towards the dev. http://vis.cs.ucdavis.edu/~ogawa/codeswarm/ 16:50:58 thanks 16:51:01 So I'd guess the more commits touching a file, the more the file's circle heads to you 16:51:11 I like the explosion of commits for big changes 16:51:16 Mostly involving Enne :) 16:51:19 yes 16:52:10 I'm not sure what the size of the bubbles is. I think it means frequency of change 16:54:13 -!- ogaz has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539]] 16:54:42 bhaak, size of file, I would bet. 16:55:21 bhaak, the bubbles are smaller in the beginning, but are consistently large at the end. I can't imagine that's because they used to do small commits and now we're doing huge commits, though I could be mistaken. 16:55:33 Also, the size of he bubbles don't shrink over time, they just fade. 16:56:41 Cryp71c: the program reads the code repository log and then writes an xml with entries like: 16:56:54 there is no information about the size of the committed files 16:57:23 Strange. 16:58:59 bhaak: Should get the devteam to run this for NH :) 16:59:43 greensnark: bhaak is the devteam. 16:59:56 Because he's busy with bubbles for Crawl, NH 4.0 is stuck! 17:00:04 dpeg: Well, the pre-unNH, pre-Spork NH history :) 17:00:17 I was speaking about vanilla :) 17:00:44 I believe the vanilla NH team is working on porting NH to abacuses 17:01:06 You imagine that this bead is your pet, that bead is a succubus, etc. 17:01:06 16 row abacuses, I hope 17:01:07 greensnark, rofl 17:01:15 Ain't no life with the old 8 row ones. 17:02:03 Cryp71c: being a programmer, I should just look into the code :) float w = (8 + (sqrt(touches) * 4)) * PARTICLE_SIZE 17:03:02 bhaak, so then it is the number of people that have touched the file, then. 17:03:04 * greensnark proposes merging UnNH and Crawl 17:03:17 * Cryp71c watches as greensnark is sure to be stoned to death shortly. 17:03:24 I actually am doing a visualisation for how far slashem, unnethack and sporkhack deviates from vanilla nethack, but I got distracted :-) 17:03:26 We can include Spork too 17:03:41 bhaak, thats ok, we appreciate your distractedness. 17:03:42 spork and unnh are incompatible :) 17:03:54 Heading home 17:04:28 by, I'll decide what I'm doing about aux attack effects tomorrow and get started on them, probably just pass in the unarmed attack type to apply_aux and check the mutations there as necessary, since checking power seems probematic presently. 17:04:45 merge unnethack and crawl, sounds awesome 17:04:48 ok 17:04:50 by, we can revisit it later (or after I'm done writing the changes) to decide if that's definitely what we want to do. 17:05:01 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:05:46 casmith789: i already said that crawl is a good roguelike engine that just needs a decent nethack mod 17:06:08 Boris would be Rodney's younger brother 17:06:44 bhaak: I don't understand how the code works :) but sure, if you think you can, have a go and I'll play it :P at least to one ascension... probably 17:06:45 We could easily replace Crawl's giant newts with the Dark One 17:06:58 And rats with Vlad the Imapler 17:07:13 Imapler? cool 17:07:18 Demogorgon would hang out with Cerebov 17:07:26 oh gosh 17:07:34 i should go to sleep, or I'll risk a perma-ban here ;-) 17:07:35 imagine fighting cerebov while confused 17:07:40 The orb would be Juiblex in disguise 17:08:56 bhaak: No perma-bans here of friendly competitive roguelike maintainers, did you have any suggestions? :) 17:16:43 -!- phyphor has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:16:58 -!- phyphor has joined ##crawl-dev 17:20:30 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:23:48 greensnark: any idea what generates the checkerboard vaults in dungeon? is it a lua vault? 17:23:48 -!- Luca__ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:23:54 http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/BirdoPrey/morgue-BirdoPrey-20100510-221935.txt 17:24:07 -!- Luca__ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:26:04 dungeon.cc:_chequerboard probably 17:26:45 by: Yes, it's in C++ 17:29:24 aha, there's a DNGN_RNDWALL range 17:32:51 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 17:43:02 currently, unarmed combat skill increases auxiliary attack damage through player_apply_weapon_skill, but only if the player is wielding a weapon 17:43:38 Heh 17:43:41 that's clearly a bug, but how to fix it? making it apply regardless would boost unarmed fighters 17:44:04 I'd say fix it, and if it looks too strong we weaken the aux attacks 17:44:11 by: aren't we unhappy with UC damage output anyway (too much)? 17:44:15 We could do both at once. 17:45:42 dpeg: but what about aux unarmed damage output for fighters with weapons; is that too high? 17:46:08 by: Probably :) 17:46:33 Aux unarmed attacks are free, after all 17:46:54 I think I'll just kill the call to player_apply_weapon_skill, since it only ever mattered for weapon fighters with high unarmed skill 17:47:02 But as to how overpowered, I can't say offhand 17:47:47 it's nice if the off-hand punch makes wielding a one-handed weapon without shield attractive, but that doesn't require boosting aux attacks in general 17:52:17 Do you get aux attacks with two-handers? 17:52:42 dpeg: yes 17:52:49 just no off-hand punch 17:52:54 03by * r45b2e69787c4 10/crawl-ref/source/ (dungeon.cc enum.h): Make slimy walls not available as random wall type. 17:52:59 03by * r6bef559fe5b2 10/crawl-ref/source/fight.cc: Remove call to player_apply_weapon_skill from aux attacks. 17:53:07 by: exactly. Ideally, all of (two-hander), (one-hander with shield), (one-hander without shield), (unarmed) would be equally attractive. 17:53:23 but the off-hand punch does a lot more damage than headbutts or kicks, I think 17:54:15 5 + unarmed/3 for the punch 17:54:28 plain 5 for headbutts or kicks 17:54:48 I have trouble seeing how you'd use your claws (say) when you wield a weapon in one hand and a shield in the other. 17:54:59 you can't 17:55:05 ah, that's good 17:55:25 by: if you use a one-hander (or one of these 3/2-handers), you can? 17:55:37 yes 17:56:32 sounds good so far 17:57:14 but we still feel that both plain UC damage (no weapon), as well as the (one-hander only) UC extra damage are too much? 17:57:43 I am not sure, never play such builds. Could also be that UC is only too strong because of Blade Hands. 17:57:58 I don't think it's too good, really; can't s 17:58:06 can't really say, though 17:58:25 yes, it may well be the spells 17:58:28 I've heard that at high unarmed skill, you're better off without blade hands 17:59:30 but the code doesn't look like that to me 18:00:05 oh 18:00:09 I never heard that :) 18:00:37 I've played late game unarmed combat users with blade hands, and they do a lot of damage, but I wouldn't say too much 18:01:03 good to hear from someone reliable 18:01:17 on the other channel it's very hard to get sane statements 18:01:35 you should play a transmuter sometime 18:02:07 Right after Zelazny 18:04:48 must sleep now, good night 18:04:52 -!- by has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:08:53 Do passive freeze kills give xp? 18:11:35 -!- killersideburns has joined ##crawl-dev 18:18:14 -!- Luca__ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:18:31 -!- Luca__ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:33:25 -!- casmith789 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:48:34 !tell Cryp71c It *has to be done*, and I'm going to do it. The current monsterous code quite brokenly assumes 3 traits per facet 18:48:34 sorear: OK, I'll let Cryp71c know. 18:51:30 dpeg: Passive freeze kills give full xp 18:54:15 oh god these slimy walls sound horrible, can we use them in vaults or are they being kept in slime pit? 18:54:40 Mu_: They're yours to use! 18:54:55 I don't know if they're intended to be Slime exclusive, maybe 18:55:10 i've got that minislime vault that would be fitting to use them 18:55:16 Mu_: Use common sense 18:55:23 If it's already slime themed it sounds reasonable 18:55:33 May not be suitable for very shallow vaults and stuff 18:55:39 Don't put slime walls on D:3 and next to stairs where they instakill people on arrival, kthx 18:55:43 But yeah, sorear said it 18:55:51 As long as it makes sense :) 18:56:19 Mu_: How's the Sprint mapping? :) 18:56:29 What happened to the legendary second Sprint map anyway? 18:56:48 Chapayev made some Sprint map noises and then got eaten by a grue or something 18:56:51 i've kind of stalled on making it because whenever i test it everything on the map wakes up beelines for me and it isn't fun 18:57:03 greensnark: thank you 18:57:06 Oh, because of the combat noises? 18:57:11 yeah 18:57:15 i guess so 18:57:49 greensnark, Mu_: yes, that requires some solution 18:58:02 I mean, the map is playable with the current noise system (Sprint 1, that is) 18:58:23 And I like about it how the game can become so random. 18:58:31 If we suppress all noise, that'd be bad. 18:58:38 Is there some less radical choicE? 18:58:58 Istr the current combat noise system is incomplete 18:59:21 yes 18:59:35 greensnark: but even if it was complete, we'd want less noise in Sprint. 18:59:53 dpeg: Really? 18:59:54 Could we have something like "Sprint has half the volume level of Crawl"? 19:00:01 greensnark: yes, I'd think so. 19:00:23 In Crawl, you'll want that loud actions (think using bolts or melee battle) can wake someone next room. 19:00:38 Well, individual parameters are easy enough to tune for Sprint 19:00:39 i think it'd really help if sounds didn't travel very far in sprint, yeah 19:01:17 currently, it's a circle of fixed radius, sound travels regardless of walls? 19:02:42 dpeg: Looks like it, yes 19:03:15 greensnark: need zelgadis back on the map 19:03:31 But for now, couldn't the noise propagation routine simply start with: 19:03:44 if SPRINT then radius = radius/2 19:03:48 ... 19:03:58 Yes, that can be done 19:04:08 All noise is handled in one convenient function anyway 19:04:17 I think it's important that the rule/code change for Sprint is easy and small 19:04:37 Might be nice to propagate sounds using a floodfill that causes falloff with distance^2 19:04:41 -!- killersideburns has left ##crawl-dev 19:04:49 Depends on how common sounds are 19:04:59 greensnark: I think someone (Haran? Robert?) mentioned that this is too much, computation wise. 19:05:17 Yes, depends on how common sounds are 19:05:19 we have battle sounds all time, heck, several times per turn 19:05:22 every shot etc 19:05:51 and we definitely want monsters far away from the player (e.g. allies, ahem) to make noise when fighting 19:06:00 Yes 19:06:03 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:07:01 I was discussing cool and fancy noise propagation rules (the physical model will not do, but at least linear decay in air, fixed numbers for walls etc.) 19:07:05 I think what we need is a noise map 19:07:49 and every action during a turn just adds its noise. Then we superimpose the noise filter (from the terrain) and off to the next turn. 19:08:01 I agree on merging nearby noise sources 19:08:11 That would reduce most of the duplicate events 19:08:25 Just add to the intensity and pick the centroid as source 19:08:45 That way large battles will be louder noises too :) 19:08:59 Sounds like a fun thing to play with 19:09:05 I am saying that we shouldn't compute propgation not every time we have a source (an orc shoots, the elf shoots etc.), but we just add those sources to the noise map. And once the turn is over, we propogate once. 19:09:17 dpeg: Yes 19:09:22 greensnark: hm, that sounds also possible 19:09:27 we could be talking about the same 19:09:31 And I also say we merge noise sources that are close by at end of turn 19:09:58 I have the clear feeling that people with an inclination towards height maps are particularly destined to make such noise maps :) 19:09:58 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 19:10:49 We'll see :) 19:11:20 greensnark: good noise system is essential for the Stealth god =) 19:12:48 Alan Monroe suggests a ToME change: "Random character for quickstarting a game (like Crawl!!!!!!)" 19:13:10 I wonder if the number of exclamation marks is significant 19:15:56 yes, of course 19:16:21 "Stoning monsters, e.g. cockatrice (like Nethack!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)" 19:17:13 Stealth gameplay in games in general tends to rely on decent feedback. If a system behaves unexpectedly, it has a tendency to be frustrating as you're fighting an invisible foe. 19:17:21 Although as Crawl has invisible foes already... 19:19:06 Hello. 19:22:30 Hallo! 19:22:38 I have a game going: 19:22:41 @whereis dpeque 19:22:43 dpeque the Bludgeoner (L21 DSFi), a worshipper of Yredelemnul, saved on Lair:1 on 2010-05-12 after 80894 turns. 19:23:52 I saw, how is it? 19:24:55 fun! 19:25:03 I have this DS mutation where you wanna fight in the open 19:26:00 -!- Abuse has joined ##crawl-dev 19:26:29 Which one? 19:26:43 the icy one 19:27:09 ah 19:27:11 random idea: does anyone agree that wearing/removing MR or Stealth items should print something like "You are somewhat resistant to magic, as before.", "You were quite resistant to magic, now you are very resistant to magic."? 19:27:30 due: I also had a trove. But I bought the ticket. 19:27:33 * dpeg was bad. 19:28:05 A couple problems with breath weapon targeting... when you use it and no monsters are in range, it targets you by default. Then you hit . and it asks "Are you sure... blah blah" and you can't hit y or n in case your spamming, and you have to hit Y or N. So you hit N and it doesn't give any indication that you did, at all... so then you're like N again, in case you typo 19:28:10 'd or something... 19:28:23 then it uses it as a direction and wastes your breath weapon and a turn. 19:29:04 Abuse: I'd guess this affects not just breath weapons. 19:29:10 @?lich 19:29:10 lich (15L) | Speed: 10 | HD: 20 | Health: 40-120 | AC/EV: 10/10 | Damage: 1513(drain) | Flags: 07undead, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(293), 02cold++, 03poison | XP: 3449 | Sp: b.cold, paralyse, greater demon, animate dead, iron shot, teleport self / b.draining, animate dead, summon undead, throw frost, crystal spear / b.fire, confuse, haste, b.draining, greater demon, banishment / mystic 19:29:11 i dunno 19:29:58 seems wierd that y and n are both confirmation and directionals 19:30:19 who made this keyboard scheme up 19:30:36 Abuse: yes, nothing we can change at this point 19:30:52 I wondered if one could have a system where Enter=yes, Space=no 19:30:55 but it's too late 19:31:00 yeah 19:31:18 Shift-Enter for Y (instead of y) :) 19:31:22 well, how about only being case sensitive on Y 19:31:45 and saying "Okay." or echoing the response or something. 19:31:49 to indicate that it got it. 19:31:57 it doesnt trigger a _ character. 19:32:00 Abuse: yes, feedback is always good. Would you file that on Mantis? 19:32:17 mhmm 19:32:18 user input without feedback = bad 19:32:35 ?? mantis 19:32:35 mantis[1/2]: http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/ 19:33:54 yes, please 19:34:06 if the VI keys are disabled, there's no reason to be that hard 19:34:14 but sadly, they're on by default 19:35:02 When I get the self-target prompt, I always try to bail (without success) with Esc. 19:35:16 vim roots crawling out of the shadows, I guess. 19:35:55 mhmm 19:36:16 nah, the vi keys are okay 19:36:39 so, replied on Zin & Imprison, sleep now 19:38:58 whats the most difficult monster in the game? 19:40:12 Abuse: depends on context 19:40:46 abstractly, probably Anteus or so 19:42:06 @??test spawner 19:42:06 test spawner (16X) | Speed: 14 (swim: 60%) | HD: 1000 | Health: 1000000 | AC/EV: 127/127 | Flags: 11non-living, amphibious | Res: 13magic(immune), 05hellfire, 02cold, 10elec, 03poison, 07acid | XP: 1 | Sp: shadow creatures. 19:43:39 Antaeus is nearly harmless unless you both charge him at low hp _and_ don't kill or separate the fiends first 19:44:11 he hits hard but doesn't summon and has speed only 10, with no haste 19:44:50 and no fire storm, too 19:44:52 KiloByte: so it's a battle of attrition? 19:45:37 Abuse: you phrase the problem very nicely, but you forgot to propose solutions, too! :) 19:45:42 no, why? You don't have to kite him, just make sure you fight him 1-on-1. 19:46:28 KiloByte: I am imagining two beefed up fighters, harming each other little, so that the battle takes ages :) 19:47:14 No indication that you're sure. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1531) by Abuse 19:48:04 in my last visit to Coc:7, he was somehow gone, too. I killed the fiends and searched a good deal of the level, failing to find him. 19:48:15 KiloByte: sad Anteus 19:56:09 heh... my only melee fight with him took just several whacks with the Sword of Cerebov :) 19:56:43 so it was a weapon of flaming vs rF-- 19:56:59 my only melee fight with him took 17 whacks with a staff of earth 19:59:11 hmm no, rF-- doesn't do anything better than rF-. It's double damage in both cases. 20:00:08 but new[ish] Cerebov is totally scary 20:02:03 dies well to long-range powerful conjurations, but otherwise, fighting him is a bad idea 20:02:46 try doing that with a low-magic spriggan melee char... 20:07:09 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 20:11:27 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:27:10 -!- Abuse has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:31:19 -!- Bartenders has joined ##crawl-dev 21:31:24 hello 21:31:34 i think i royally fucked up 21:33:26 libunix.cc:72:24: error: curses.h: No such file or directory 21:33:27 libunix.cc:83: error: ‘COLOR_PAIR’ was not declared in this scope 21:33:29 libunix.cc:87: error: ‘WINDOW’ was not declared in this scope 21:33:30 libunix.cc:87: error: ‘w’ was not declared in this scope 21:33:32 libunix.cc:87: error: expected primary-expression before ‘const’ 21:33:33 libunix.cc:87: error: initializer expression list treated as compound expression 21:33:35 libunix.cc: In function ‘unsigned int convert_to_curses_attr(int)’: 21:33:37 libunix.cc:95: error: ‘A_STANDOUT’ was not declared in this scope 21:33:38 libunix.cc:96: error: ‘A_BOLD’ was not declared in this scope 21:33:40 libunix.cc:97: error: ‘A_BLINK’ was not declared in this scope 21:33:42 libunix.cc:98: error: ‘A_UNDERLINE’ was not declared in this scope 21:33:43 libunix.cc:99: error: ‘A_REVERSE’ was not declared in this scope 21:33:45 libunix.cc:100: error: ‘A_DIM’ was not declared in this scope 21:33:46 libunix.cc:101: error: ‘A_NORMAL’ was not declared in this scope 21:33:48 libunix.cc: In function ‘short int translate_colour(short int)’: 21:33:49 libunix.cc:116: error: ‘COLOR_BLACK’ was not declared in this scope 21:33:51 libunix.cc:118: error: ‘COLOR_BLUE’ was not declared in this scope 21:33:52 libunix.cc:120: error: ‘COLOR_GREEN’ was not declared in this scope 21:33:54 libunix.cc:122: error: ‘COLOR_CYAN’ was not declared in this scope 21:33:55 libunix.cc:124: error: ‘COLOR_RED’ was not declared in this scope 21:33:57 libunix.cc:126: error: ‘COLOR_MAGENTA’ was not declared in this scope 21:33:58 libunix.cc:128: error: ‘COLOR_YELLOW’ was not declared in this scope 21:34:00 libunix.cc:130: error: ‘COLOR_WHITE’ was not declared in this scope 21:34:02 libunix.cc: In function ‘void setup_colour_pairs()’: 21:34:04 libunix.cc:160: error: ‘init_pair’ was not declared in this scope 21:34:07 libunix.cc:163: error: ‘COLOR_BLACK’ was not declared in this scope 21:34:07 libunix.cc:163: error: ‘init_pair’ was not declared in this scope 21:34:09 libunix.cc: In function ‘int getch_ck()’: 21:34:11 libunix.cc:306: error: ‘KEY_BACKSPACE’ was not declared in this scope 21:34:12 libunix.cc:307: error: ‘KEY_DC’ was not declared in this scope 21:34:14 libunix.cc:308: error: ‘KEY_HOME’ was not declared in this scope 21:34:16 libunix.cc:309: error: ‘KEY_PPAGE’ was not declared in this scope 21:34:18 libunix.cc:310: error: ‘KEY_END’ was not declared in this scope 21:34:20 libunix.cc:311: error: ‘KEY_NPAGE’ was not declared in this scope 21:34:22 libunix.cc:312: error: ‘KEY_UP’ was not declared in this scope 21:34:23 libunix.cc:313: error: ‘KEY_DOWN’ was not declared in this scope 21:34:25 libunix.cc:314: error: ‘KEY_LEFT’ was not declared in this scope 21:34:26 libunix.cc:315: error: ‘KEY_RIGHT’ was not declared in this scope 21:34:28 libunix.cc: In function ‘int unixcurses_get_vi_key(int)’: 21:34:30 libunix.cc:447: error: ‘KEY_HOME’ was not declared in this scope 21:34:31 libunix.cc:448: error: ‘KEY_END’ was not declared in this scope 21:34:33 libunix.cc:449: error: ‘KEY_DOWN’ was not declared in this scope 21:34:34 libunix.cc:450: error: ‘KEY_UP’ was not declared in this scope 21:34:36 libunix.cc:451: error: ‘KEY_LEFT’ was not declared in this scope 21:34:36 -!- Bartenders was kicked from ##crawl-dev by elly [stop] 21:34:40 'buffer cleared' 21:35:52 -!- Bartenders has joined ##crawl-dev 21:35:57 Bartenders: don't do that 21:36:01 sorry, 21:36:05 use a pastebin 21:36:10 also, install ncurses-dev 21:36:15 or whatever your distro calls it 21:36:43 Bartenders: despite the fact that it seems instant to you, IRC servers actually impose a limit of 1 line per 2 seconds 21:37:06 i see 21:37:07 If elly hadn't kicked you, you wouldn't have been able to speak on any channel for 10 minutes 21:37:27 how would i use a pasebin? 21:37:28 also, ##crawl-dev would have become active every other second, which is very annoying for us 21:37:33 pastebin.com 21:37:33 *pastebeen 21:37:35 or pastebin.ca 21:37:52 or cpan -i App::Nopaste 21:38:04 -!- elly changed the topic of ##crawl-dev to: DCSS development channel! | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Ashenzari source: http://github.com/doy/crawlbot 21:38:08 argh 21:38:09 Flood limiter? 21:38:20 Aren't there channel modes that do that? 21:38:32 -!- elly changed the topic of ##crawl-dev to: DCSS development channel! | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Ashenzari source: http://github.com/doy/crawlbot | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please. 21:38:35 due: baseline flood limiting is universal and specced in the RFC 21:38:38 due: no, sadly 21:38:41 Hm. 21:38:48 due: there are join flood modes, but nothing else; command rate limiting is built into the ircd 21:38:48 unrealircd has... 21:38:51 /mode +f [5t#b]:5 21:38:55 unrealircd is on drugs 21:39:00 I <3 unrealircd. 21:39:09 ON DRUGS, DUE 21:39:11 and not the good kind 21:39:12 DRUGS 21:39:14 I LIKE DRUGS 21:40:05 http://pastebin.com/W9JYbgiB 21:40:11 :O 21:40:32 install sdl dev packages 21:40:39 Install libsdl-dev. 21:41:45 ok 21:43:45 are there more sdl packages? 21:45:32 http://pastebin.com/JB7JevsM 21:45:49 this is after installing libsdl-dev 21:46:36 sounds like you need... libsdl-image-dev 21:46:36 probably need sdlimg-dev and other such nonsense 21:48:27 i couldnt find either of those 21:48:34 what distro are you using? 21:48:55 you're expected to be able to operate "apt-cache search" or equivalent functionaly 21:49:03 sudo apt-cache search sdl-image? 21:49:31 because... there's no universal name for packages 21:49:38 ubuntu 21:49:39 Yeah. 21:50:05 try like 21:50:14 persson@persson:~$ sudo apt-cache search sdl | grep image 21:50:14 libsdl-image1.2 - image loading library for Simple DirectMedia Layer 1.2 21:50:14 libsdl-image1.2-dev - development files for SDL 1.2 image loading libray 21:50:14 cl-sdl-img - Support for the SDL_image library in Common Lisp 21:50:16 try what due said 21:50:17 apt-cache search sdl.*image 21:50:25 due: regexps, you naughty creature 21:50:33 elly: grep, me lazy creature 21:51:21 hm 21:51:41 im just not too familiar with all of ths 21:51:55 sudo apt-get install libsdl-image1.2 libsdl-image1.2-dev 21:51:58 im just not too familiar with all of ths 21:51:58 copy and paste that 21:52:16 Alrighty 21:52:19 Also, sudo apt-get install apt-file 21:52:25 then read the documentation for apt-file 21:54:23 ok 21:55:22 so it is a way to find packages with the title that exists on another distro? 21:55:48 I have absolutely no idea how you came to that conclusion 21:56:09 sorear: equery <3 21:56:16 * due goes out. 21:56:22 uh 21:57:15 damn 21:57:43 well, at least its compiling 21:58:05 good 21:58:23 hey 21:58:31 how did you guys learn all of this? 21:58:40 how did you guys learn all of this? 21:58:42 fuck 21:58:43 doing it for a while 21:58:53 10 years of practice 21:59:01 12 here 21:59:15 did you start with learning a programming language? 21:59:18 yes 21:59:22 learned C when I was 9 21:59:25 never looked back :) 21:59:37 I was talking with a friend, he suggested i work with python 21:59:42 go for it 21:59:46 it's easy to pick up and decently powerful 22:01:36 don't learn a programming language 22:01:39 learn several 22:01:47 indeed 22:02:23 * elly knows, to greater or lesser degrees and in rough order of preference: Scheme, C, Perl, x86 assembly, prolog, and factor 22:03:03 I'm weird, I can only really form mental models from the bottom up 22:03:12 I don't think I could have started with Python 22:03:20 C didn't make sense until I got to pointers 22:03:33 pointers were when C started seeming self-consistent to me 22:03:42 * elly loves scheme too much now 22:04:21 mm 22:04:48 i got an interesting and perhaps challenging question 22:04:59 how would i remove the old crawl-xll? 22:06:36 no idea 22:06:48 how'd you install it? 22:06:57 What's a crawl-xll? 22:18:47 i think its the tiles ver 22:20:10 the prob is i cant really remember exactly how i installed it 22:20:19 i had alot of trouble doing it though 22:20:47 i think i found some "pre-compiled" version online 22:21:02 or some thing with a script that compiled it for me 22:24:12 well, its no big deal 22:24:43 The .6 tiles version works now 22:24:45 thanks! 22:28:01 don't lear a language, learn the paradigm 22:36:17 ? 22:45:05 -!- Luca__ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:45:26 -!- Luca__ has joined ##crawl-dev 23:10:14 -!- Luca__ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:10:31 -!- Luca__ has joined ##crawl-dev 23:24:22 -!- nrook has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:38:58 -!- Bartenders has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]