00:01:44 -!- Abuse has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:10:29 -!- Luca__ has quit [*.net *.split] 00:10:30 -!- philsnow has quit [*.net *.split] 00:10:30 -!- Spads has quit [*.net *.split] 00:10:31 -!- Zao has quit [*.net *.split] 00:15:56 -!- Luca__ has joined ##crawl-dev 00:15:56 -!- philsnow has joined ##crawl-dev 00:15:56 -!- Spads has joined ##crawl-dev 00:15:56 -!- Zao has joined ##crawl-dev 00:17:02 -!- ixtli has quit [Quit: ixtli] 00:18:32 -!- ixtli has joined ##crawl-dev 00:47:19 -!- purge has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:15:29 -!- by has joined ##crawl-dev 01:33:09 -!- Cryp71c_ has joined ##crawl-dev 01:33:39 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:47:42 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 01:47:59 -!- Cryp71c_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:56:24 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:12:50 -!- stabwound has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:13:19 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 02:17:22 in ice_caverns_01, is it intended that you have to dig to reach the end? 02:19:04 also, in portal_ice_cave_entry_animals_and_master, one floor tile was white (the one under the 4) 03:35:35 -!- Giomancer has joined ##crawl-dev 03:36:17 -!- Giomancer has quit [Client Quit] 03:55:22 by: Probably something to ask/poke Keskitalo about. 04:35:28 03by * r9b2cd710831e 10/crawl-ref/docs/changelog.txt: Collect some of the 0.7 changes at the start of changelog.txt. 04:35:55 Keskitalo: you there? I encountered some ice cave weirdness 04:39:13 wait, variable silence radius is in 0.6? 04:39:42 by: yes 04:39:46 Hmm, no digging is intended.. 04:40:36 by: There's rock wall blocking the way? 04:40:51 Kraken tentacles aren't valid targets (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1485) by OG17 04:40:52 03by * rf5361c2e26ec 10/crawl-ref/docs/changelog.txt: changelog: variable silence radius is not new to 0.7 04:40:54 Keskitalo: yes, just a second 04:41:45 to get to the fountain (U) 04:42:14 don't think I missed anything, and it looks like a dead-end in icecave.des 04:44:07 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 04:44:23 Hi there 04:44:23 dpeg: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 04:44:26 !messages 04:44:26 (1/1) Cryp71c said (10h 26m 15s ago): thanks for voicing on the spines-on-snapping turtles mantis item, you're more eloquently persuasive than I am. 04:44:43 dpeg: Hey there. 04:45:12 by: Ulgh, I see it, thanks! 04:45:26 I guess that means that Cryp71c is more persuasive than dpeg with a stick, though. 04:45:37 !tell Cryp71c Haha to "eloquently persuasive" :) I have a training as agitator, you need to go (somewhat) with the flow. I wanted to spare you the hassle of this pointless talk on Mantis. 04:45:37 dpeg: OK, I'll let Cryp71c know. 04:46:01 by: many thanks for the changelog (and the changes, of course). 04:46:12 I didn't get the bazaar commit message, was it big? 04:47:29 the shop distribution changes? 04:48:52 -!- stabwound has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:48:53 http://sprunge.us/jHeK 04:49:20 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 04:49:21 re spines, how about making them not fire when you attack with a weapon? 04:50:07 by: yes, that's an option. 04:50:12 they appear to be overpowered right now, and that would be a more interesting nerf rather than to just cut damage 04:50:28 (the overpowered is just from what I've heard) 04:50:32 Many DS mutations need tweaks, we started with adding good (=different and strong) effects. 04:50:38 Balancing tweaks are clearly needed. 04:50:51 by: I agree 04:50:55 Polymorphed krakens cause crashes (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1486) by OG17 04:50:58 it would solve turtle v polearm of reaching at the same time 04:51:49 ys 04:54:28 03Keskitalo * re24c488cb411 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/portals/icecave.des: Fix a floor spot colour in an ice cave entry. (by) 04:54:29 03Keskitalo * r00d844135234 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/portals/icecave.des: Fix a dead end in an ice cavern. (by) 04:56:25 Right-o, I was actually supposed to play on CDO but I automatically opened IRC connection instead. :) 04:59:59 Keskitalo: thanks! 05:02:54 dpeg: do you know if anybody is making another (pre-tournament) sprint map? 05:03:12 by: no, not for sure. 05:03:14 the map choice menu is in, would be nice to test it a bit 05:03:26 I can write to Chapayev and Mu. 05:05:24 Didn't Marc post that patch with Sprint 2 from Chapayev? 05:05:51 that patch only had a few small tweaks (no scrolls of teleportation, etc) 05:06:21 Oh, ok. 05:06:24 at least dpeg's reply did, and I think Napkin said he didn't get a map 05:10:04 mail sent 05:11:01 Krakens and sunlight (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1487) by OG17 05:13:11 Keskitalo: you wrote that there's an FR about the CAO map upgrade problem somewhere; I just searched unsuccessfully -- are you sure? 05:13:25 this is re the 0.7 plan page 05:19:52 -!- baturinsky has joined ##crawl-dev 05:30:03 03kilobyte * r57df33bc6076 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-stuff.cc: Kill tentacles when a kraken gets polymorphed. 05:30:27 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 05:31:17 dpeg: are you still looking for windows users? 05:32:06 pineapple: can you build on windows? 05:32:09 no idea 05:32:09 :) 05:32:16 i've not even tried 05:33:06 also, which windows? 05:34:09 i have xp and vista 05:34:25 I don't even know. It was just obvious at some point that we were lacking developers who'd build on windows. 05:34:47 lunchtime 05:35:51 I was surprised how easy it is to build DCSS on windows. Just download mingw installer, run it, download and unpack zip with sources, type "make" 05:50:54 -!- Spads has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:01:06 -!- ais523 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:02:26 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 06:03:04 by: The sprint author said that he had nearly finished his sprint2 map some weeks ago 06:03:36 and the ice cave with digging was really weird when I got it. I though "is that it..." until I started digging and levitating around 06:06:11 -!- Spads has joined ##crawl-dev 06:06:56 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 06:18:31 -!- rax_ is now known as rax 06:26:16 felirx: I've written to Chapayev. 06:41:14 -!- ais523 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:42:47 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 06:46:33 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 06:49:17 Since when does autoexplore stop with "_Found two items. 06:49:25 " instead of just listing both items? 06:50:09 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:52:44 -!- Luca__ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:52:59 -!- Luca__ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:57:39 dpeg: at least on my local build it lists both. I've seen that happen in-game, however, so it may be some weird special case 06:57:55 or an option 06:58:35 syllogism: not an option (I play with defaults). Just tell me if you see it too. 07:08:00 It may be due to the message being too long 07:08:28 yes 07:08:57 if it takes more than one line 07:09:03 ah, I see 07:09:05 thanks 07:09:53 !seen doy 07:09:54 I last saw doy at Thu Apr 29 04:54:34 2010 UTC (5d 7h 15m 20s ago) saying "that Ive asked" on ##crawl-dev. 07:14:48 hello 07:14:56 Hi due! 07:15:49 Ahhh too many emails :o 07:16:39 due: not checking them for some days? :) 07:47:23 Hah 07:47:25 Basically, yes 07:47:31 My other inbox has 7000 unread messages 07:47:33 Most of them are spam 07:48:25 7000 could also be Crawl, if failing to read c-r-c/d for a year. :) 07:48:36 ... true. :S 07:48:42 Or less, with Mantis reports. 07:48:42 uhm, procmail? 07:49:09 Well, not spam, just stuff that I won't bother reading. 08:13:50 why is the weapon "str_weight" field apparently defined but ignored for everything but launchers? 08:14:03 Cactus. 08:15:20 hm.. what exactly is the purpose of toadstools, anyway? 08:15:33 Elephant. 08:15:37 Zaba: flavour and Fedhas 08:15:41 Snorkle! 08:15:58 Basically, I should be asleep. 08:16:24 so it's not for annoying people who want to run through corridors from something that hits them like trucks, or casters that need to waste mp first killing the damn toadstool that got in the way? 08:16:36 That helps. 08:18:50 also, I think that pillardancing with a giant snail made the anti-scumming mechanism kick in.. somehow, a slime creature and a bunch of orc gangs doesn't look like a normal spawn ;p 08:23:50 Zaba: no, we try to minimise annoyance. Toadstools will now be killed by autoexplore. 08:24:14 yes, I think they already are 08:38:48 -!- stabwound has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:39:15 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 08:39:49 -!- Luca__ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:40:05 -!- Luca__ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:49:28 -!- by has quit [Disconnected by services] 08:49:29 -!- by_ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:54:31 -!- Spads has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:02:22 -!- Spads has joined ##crawl-dev 09:07:50 -!- by_ is now known as by 09:08:35 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 09:23:11 -!- baturinsky has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:24:38 -!- baturinsky has joined ##crawl-dev 09:37:33 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 09:38:43 03dolorous * r38b48859bbf4 10/crawl-ref/docs/changelog.txt: Add a few more 0.7 changes to the changelog. 09:43:00 Stasis should not allow hasting (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1488) by dpeg 09:43:00 always nice to see the changelog grow 09:45:46 Cryp71c: actually most end-game melee threats are unarmed 09:46:17 stone giants, titans; electric golems, orb guardians; 1s 09:46:25 -!- greensnark has joined ##crawl-dev 09:46:36 by: you have to say that in the Mantis FR, I think. 09:46:44 greensnark: Hello! 09:47:01 dpeg: the mantis thread is getting so long... 09:47:07 Hello 09:47:07 greensnark: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 09:47:14 !messages 09:47:14 (1/2) dpeg said (1d 19h 21m 48s ago): Sure, will do. I also made some comments on points & rules for the 2009 tournament. 09:47:19 indeed, it is. I don't mind discussing it here. 09:47:19 Cryp71c: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 09:47:21 !messages 09:47:21 (1/1) dpeg said (5h 1m 44s ago): Haha to "eloquently persuasive" :) I have a training as agitator, you need to go (somewhat) with the flow. I wanted to spare you the hassle of this pointless talk on Mantis. 09:47:33 ah, wasn't aware that Cryp71c is around 09:48:06 What happened to pointless anyway 09:48:14 Has he been eaten by war dogs 09:48:32 yes :( 09:48:45 !seen pointless_ 09:48:46 I last saw pointless_ at Mon May 3 14:40:10 2010 UTC (1d 8m 36s ago) quitting with message Client Quit. 09:48:53 Transcended to fruit form. 09:49:02 Pineapples? 09:49:13 Haha, someone died to a kraken 09:49:17 by, we can change it to unarmed strikes and give a slight buff to damage, or give it the opportunity to bypass some AC, or something. I had mostly focussed on its uselesness against knights, elves, uniques, etc. that are always well equipped. 09:49:46 oen comment: spines, no matter how they work, should also apply to spiny frogs (are there other mosnters with spines?) 09:50:00 spiny worms 09:50:06 I commented on mantis after all :) 09:50:35 those spiny monsters would benefit a lot if the spines work not just against unarmed attacks 09:50:42 that is true 09:51:06 with it, monsters spines are just flavour; without, it could actually mean something (sometimes) 09:51:54 but then, spiny frogs and spiny worms aren't allowed to wear armour 09:52:08 so I'm not sure symmetry is really something to aim for here 09:52:38 damage could also just be much higher for unarmed attacks 09:53:24 ??spines 09:53:24 spiny[1/1]: Mutation, has a chance of doing (xd6 (where x is mutation level) - enemy AC - player EVP) damage to enemies in melee combat when their attack is not blocked by the player. New in .7 09:54:05 what kind of damage does a player do in melee? 09:55:04 DS spines should catch fire when hit by fire attacks :P 09:55:15 And regenerate slowly :P 09:55:28 by: I may be missing something -- I thought the whole point here is whether A attacking spiny opponent B will take reliation damage from the spines -- always, or only if A attacks without weapon?? 09:55:50 dpeg: yes, for demonspawn spines 09:56:19 by: but the same question applies to spiny frogs, with the player being the attacker. 09:56:36 spiny frogs could have much longer spines 09:56:45 ah, I see :) 09:57:22 Cryp71c: what's your take on the current DS spines? Too strong, or okay? 09:57:33 Cryp71c said on the tracker they're fine 09:57:45 THey originally were way to strong, but a couple days after they went live I rebalanced their damage and to-hit numbers and they're pretty good at the moment. 09:57:46 I like how AEVP comes into play there. 09:58:22 They one-shot weak monsters that have no AC, but are useless (early on) against heavily armoured creatures, so they balance out well. 09:58:27 I think it's okay to leave them like this (i.e. all melee attacks take damage, apart from reaching, of course). 09:59:35 Spines are like super melee attacks if you can take a little damage 09:59:43 I've seen players wade into crowds and let the spines do all the damage 09:59:52 Whereas with a primary melee attack, you get to hit only one thing :P 10:00:10 greensnark: but that's great! We like to encourage players to leave their corridors. 10:00:22 Well, yeah, if there's a risk :P 10:00:29 greensnark, yeah I find with spines I will happily wade into fully-surrounded combat and take that risk. 10:00:32 Spine damage at level 3 is pretty high 10:00:45 dpeg: the problem is that there's corridors everywhere, making space-loving builds hard to play 10:00:50 is the damage unconditional? 10:00:56 18 - AC - Player EVP penalty 10:00:59 dpeg, no, subject to monster ac. 10:01:06 ais523: no, that's not the problem 10:01:36 well, I love the Abyss for its openness 10:01:36 Cryp71c: can a monster like a bat evade the spines or will it always get the effect? 10:01:49 dpeg, it doesn't presently check evasion properties 10:02:09 dpeg, so bats usually walk up and kill themselves on it, as do rats and other 0-ac creatures. 10:02:47 damage per hit for spines 3 seems to be slightly lower than damage per hit with a +7 sabre and good skill 10:02:47 Does it still work if the monster misses the player 10:03:15 greensnark, yes, spines can proc off of hits, hits but no damage, and misses (but never blocks) 10:03:34 Why does it work for misses? 10:03:50 greensnark: if you miss quite well... 10:04:04 Oh, we're being realistic now? :P 10:04:20 I don't think it should work for misses 10:04:21 greensnark: just saying it can be rationalised away. 10:04:30 Yes, but I don't think it should be rationalised away :P 10:04:33 EV is already strong 10:04:34 greensnark: yes, I think that's better for balance. 10:05:30 What about this: (1) no spines on misses. (2) Take attacker'S EV into account. (3) Give spiny frogs and spiny worms Spines 3. 10:05:32 greensnark, dpeg, the current paradigm for using EVP to determine damage and to-hit needs to be changed then. 10:05:58 Cryp71c: presumably, but the basic idea that your heavy armour hinders your spines is still good. 10:06:05 It doesnt make any sense to say "the lighter armour you wear, the more likely spines will hit and do more damage" but also say "ohwait, you can't dodge their attacks though" 10:06:21 Cryp71c: What dpeg said: EVP can stand in for portion of spines that heavy armour interferes with 10:07:57 Cryp71c: AFAIU, players who want to get most out of their spines should use (sufficiently) light armour and fight in the open. This does not mean that monsters shouldn't be able to not get hurt from spines (AC or EV). 10:08:10 I also think spine damage should not be able to exceed the monster's damage output for that monster attack, but that may make them too weak 10:08:20 greensnark: why that? 10:08:30 Because the damage the monster sustains from the spine is its own damage 10:08:57 (before damage reduction from player's armour) 10:09:07 But if that makes spines too weak it's not worth it 10:09:12 greensnark: I can clearly a bad fighter attacking my and me spines and doing no damage, but dying from the spines. 10:09:21 dpeg, that kind of rational would have people wearing light armour but with dodging turned off (to get the most out of their mutation), so their confined to none of the benefits of heavy armour and none of the benefits from light armour. 10:09:28 if you punch someone, you might do less damage than you take when punching a nail 10:09:49 ah, I see the problem 10:09:55 So apply the monster's damage roll max, not the actual damage 10:10:11 greensnark: Cryp71c is right. Not spining on misses devalues player EV. 10:10:13 But anyway, that's less important 10:10:14 dpeg, so either we encourage heavy-armour builds and use something other than EVP, or use EVP and encourage lighter armours and EV builds. 10:10:20 dpeg: I don't buy it 10:10:36 Not even for a dollar? 10:10:37 Cryp71c: but I don't see what the EVP has to do with it. 10:10:39 :) 10:10:39 If people turn off dodging, they suffer a different penalty, so they can do it if they want to :P 10:10:56 You'd have to be nuts to turn off dodging :P 10:11:09 greensnark: of course they won't turn off dodging, they'd just find that spines are not effective. 10:11:15 dpeg, sorry, EVP is much less of an issue than the "not proccing when attacks miss" thing. 10:11:22 yes 10:11:28 dpeg: Why is that a problem? 10:12:22 DS players quitting for horns were of notoriously low intellect; they'll still quit no matter how good mutations get :P 10:12:25 There are the following mechanics around: (1) Heavy armour reduces the value of your (the DS) spines. (2) High EV increases the chances that monsters miss, so reduces the chance that your spines are useful. 10:12:46 Are we fine with that? 10:12:50 greensnark, quitting for horns? 10:12:57 Cryp71c: yes, don't ask. 10:13:07 Cryp71c: Players used to quit DS characters if they got the horns mutation 10:13:18 Well that's absurd, and certainly isn't the case anymore... 10:13:33 In general if they feel a DS mutation is underpowered, they quit and then whine about "being forced to quit" :P 10:13:56 Ero used to do it a lot :P 10:14:05 including the whining? 10:14:08 Yes 10:14:08 also: ^ 10:14:15 dpeg, I'm not, but I'm only one voice and in any case will be happy to give that paradigm a try, I just don't foresee it going as well as the current paradigm 10:14:59 Is there a general feeling that spines are overpowered? I've only spectated DS spines games, no real feel for the balance 10:15:03 Yes, what I like about the current behaviour is this: it keeps (1), but does not have (2), thereby encouraging/supporting lightly armed melee fighters. 10:15:09 greensnark, not anymore, they're in a solid place 10:16:04 Cryp71c: but by just came up with Spines 3 = +7 sabre 10:16:25 That sounds quite good. (Then again, monster AC will work.) 10:16:35 they did seem a bit lower, and I didn't factor in weapon speed 10:16:49 Btw, the spines nerf of letting monster EV work would not interfere with the current paradigm. 10:16:55 dpeg, right, those numbers might be lowered by factoring in monster EV, which is a good change. 10:17:09 Cryp71c: Give the poor bat a chance :) 10:17:12 haha 10:17:21 I rather like not having to worry about bats and timing their movement / attack patterns 10:17:27 somehow, the first thing I thought of was a baseball bat 10:17:33 "Ohwait, I have spines, left left left left" and let it kill itself 10:17:37 !coffee Zaba 10:17:38 * Henzell hands Zaba a pot of café au lait, brewed by the Serpent of Hell. 10:17:48 Alas, no more. 10:18:03 no more? 10:18:09 Spines sound nasty for poor Executioners 10:18:15 Won't someone think of the executioners 10:18:26 Those innocent trusting Executioners 10:18:27 greensnark: yes, so many attacks, they practically execute themselves. 10:18:32 Yes :'( 10:18:33 spines are nasty for all the poor fluffy critters in the lair 10:18:43 Executioner (151) | Speed: 20 | HD: 12 | Health: 36-96 | AC/EV: 10/15 | Damage: 30, 10, 10 | Flags: 05demonic, evil, see invisible | Res: 06magic(144), 05fire, 02cold, 10elec++, 03poison | XP: 2372 | Sp: pain, haste. 10:18:44 @??Executioner 10:18:45 Let's all hear it for our poor executing friends. 10:18:55 12 attacks per normal player round 10:19:34 They'll probably off themselves in one player turn at spines 3 :P 10:19:35 without haste! 10:19:46 No, 6 attacks without haste 10:19:50 ah 10:19:56 right 10:20:22 dpeg, once I get monster EV worked in, no more letting bats so easily kill themselves on spines. 10:20:38 Another question: do we think we have enough DS mutations? (I do.) 10:20:45 Cryp71c: okay. 10:20:59 Are the new DS muts going in for 0.7 10:21:07 And when is 0.7 happening? :) 10:21:13 dpeg, I don't, actually. I was hoping to come up with 5-6 more tier 3 (weak) mutations and a couple more of both tier 2 and tier 1 mutations. 10:21:16 And what happened to doy :'( 10:21:45 greensnark: release well before the tournament, we hope. 10:22:02 greensnark: doy is amiss. And we wanted to overhaul the not-the-HUD, too. 10:22:03 I still have to finish up monstrous and the unarmed combat changes. 10:22:15 Should be well before tourney, or all the interesting bugs will be discovered during the tourney 10:22:17 Cryp71c: okay, but I think there's enough content to create really diverse DS. 10:22:24 the not-the-HUD can easily wait 10:22:29 by: of course 10:22:32 the not-the-HUD? 10:22:44 greensnark: the numbers and stats section of the main screen. 10:22:55 Someone objected to calling it the HUD? :P 10:23:03 greensnark: I wrote some dates on the 0.7 page -- please adapt them 10:23:21 greensnark: "it's not actually a HUD" 10:23:24 greensnark: yes :) 10:23:26 Well, true 10:23:31 But HUD is short and easy to write! 10:23:39 And there's no danger of confusion either :P 10:24:24 Those dates look god 10:24:25 Would someone have a look at Cryp71c's player_aux_unarmed overhaul? I think it's needed to move on with DS... 10:24:27 *good 10:24:36 July 1 would be a nice date for 0.7 10:24:40 These dates make me sad for Ashenzari. 10:24:52 by has taken quite a bit of time to look at it, though I think he's maxed on how much feedback he can give on the matter. 10:24:54 dpeg: We should release the Sprint maps early :P 10:25:00 If anyone else can take a look, that would be helpful. 10:25:20 Otherwise it's likely that players will discover nice shortcuts to the orb within hours of release 10:25:29 As happened for the first Sprint map 10:25:51 what kinds of shortcuts? 10:25:57 greensnark: I had planned to not release the Sprint maps, but test them secretly. 10:26:00 The shortening kind 10:26:02 lol 10:26:14 Like teleporting around for orb 10:26:24 will new sprint maps use subvaults? 10:26:25 Or corrupting the map at a strategic place to open a direct route to the orb 10:26:26 not possible anymore 10:26:30 Zaba: I hope so, yes 10:26:37 dpeg: Yes, but players will find new holes :) 10:26:38 greensnark: that's actually okay, no? 10:26:40 greensnark: of course 10:26:41 that would be great, since right now it's just of just too static.. 10:26:52 dpeg: The corruption tactic was extremely cheesy :P 10:26:59 dpeg: Did you see syllogism using it? :P 10:27:02 no 10:27:12 I think most of the CK Sprint wins did that 10:27:16 not my one! 10:27:25 Once you get past Sonja, the game is as good as won :P 10:28:03 greensnark: one way to abolish this would be by placing three runes on the map and asking players to get them all 10:28:14 (and no orb picking up before having the runes) 10:28:15 the other half abused good god piety? 10:28:19 by: no, not my one 10:28:32 I used distortion, but don't think that's an abuse. 10:29:37 dpeg: I tried chain-summoning elementals to skip parts of the Sprint map, which was fun, but didn't really work because I got bored 10:32:35 By the way, the new ~ for water is much nicer than { 10:33:04 that keeps confusing me with single squares of water, I keep assuming something's submerged in them 10:33:09 what's detected-item nowadays? also ~? 10:33:13 greensnark: thank you 10:33:47 ais523: there's no item detection anymore? 10:33:50 yeah, single-square water is somewhat confused, multiple-square is plain scary, but well, it's just a habit.. 10:33:54 confusing* 10:34:01 You get used to it quickly 10:34:10 dpeg: not in spell form, I assumed there was some way to trigger it some other way 10:34:11 Yeah I rather like ~ 10:34:15 like there is for most of the divination spells 10:34:19 ais523, I think a div rod is the only way 10:34:25 and xom effect 10:34:30 I have nothing against ~ for water, though (TAEB's used that in NetHack for a while) 10:34:41 What's NH's default water symbol? 10:34:49 =? 10:35:04 } 10:35:07 } or { 10:35:10 Ah 10:35:12 wait, or is } fountain? 10:35:24 nobody can ever remember which is which, but it's generally obvious from context 10:35:25 greensnark: this may just be where Linley took the glyph from. 10:35:26 both is water :) 10:35:34 Here's the man! 10:35:51 not true! the other one can be lava too! 10:36:05 Nethack nitpickers in my channel! 10:36:12 there's a great Dudley's Dungeon strip which has the Oracle standing in the middle of four } signs 10:36:27 and he goes up to talk to the Oracle and falls straight in 10:36:30 Is there a pool somewhere to bet on when the next NH release will be? 10:36:34 (the Oracle is /normally/ surrounded by fountains) 10:36:46 greensnark: no idea, you could maybe start one in rgrn 10:36:49 greensnark: I think betting on Greece stocks is safer. 10:36:58 but } is twice as likely to be water! 10:36:59 dpeg: Well, of course 10:37:11 bhaak: well, NetHack doesn't have lava fountains... 10:37:23 nor does Crawl, fwiw 10:37:29 ais523: but moats and pools vs. lava :) 10:37:41 Crawl has blood fountains, but I don't know if they're used anywhere 10:37:49 they are 10:37:52 greensnark: http://nethack.wikia.com/wiki/Wikihack:Next_version_pool but no money 10:37:55 Where are they used? 10:38:02 in some obscure vaults 10:38:20 usually with a chance to be something else 10:39:40 they could go a way to solving the vampire nutrition problem in bloodless branches 10:42:22 unrelated: if a players starts a virgin Crawl (no scores, no saves), will the default be tutorial? 10:43:40 Jesus Christ as a unique in virgin Crawls 10:44:01 Too bad Beogh already covers that :P 10:45:30 The problem of updating .des files when upgrading minor versions can be fixed if Crawl compiles maps into a versioned directory 10:45:57 Currently Crawl just writes a directory under the savedir for compiled maps and descriptions 10:46:26 If it uses the game version when creating that directory, you could overwrite old des files safely 10:58:27 -!- Smee has joined ##crawl-dev 11:01:18 dpeg, what should be the monstrous message? 11:01:50 "You feel monstrous as your demonic heritage manifests in physical form." ? 11:01:59 Cryp71c: "You feel your primordial heritage"? 11:02:06 yeah that'll work 11:02:07 thanks 11:02:46 well, I'd like to mention "monstrous" so that people have a keyword to query the learndb for 11:03:12 "You feel monstrous as your primordial heritage manifests." 11:03:20 hehe, whatever 11:03:23 manifests is a transitive verb :) 11:03:31 yes, I had this transitive feeling. 11:03:46 "You feel monstrous as your primordial heritage manifests yourself." 11:03:48 "manifests itself" 11:04:01 greensnark: I wanted to avoid the "itself" and still do. 11:04:17 -!- Smee has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 11:04:19 Can't avoid it grammatically 11:04:34 At least not with that sentence construction :) 11:04:51 Cryp71c will sort it out. 11:05:08 What does this monstrous power do? :) 11:05:31 "You're not just any old Demonspawn, you're meaner and greener, rougher and tougher. You are the DEMONCLOWN." 11:05:34 * greensnark weeps each time someone kills Ilsuiw. 11:05:42 Demonclown <3 11:05:45 Did Ilsuiw ever get someone? 11:05:54 Once or twice :P 11:05:59 !lg * ikiller=Ilsuiw 11:05:59 9. simonj the Destroyer (L14 DEFE), worshipper of Sif Muna, blasted by Ilsuiw (shard of ice) on Shoals:4 on 2010-04-12, with 56776 points after 25814 turns and 2:32:14. 11:05:59 !killsby Ilsuiw 11:06:00 2 games for * (ckiller=Ilsuiw): 1x simonj, 1x TGW 11:06:16 greensnark: the monstrous set focuses on bodily mutations. So not just one of them, but a bunch. 11:06:17 Throw icicle is rather underpowered at her level 11:06:18 twice 11:06:33 She has some water elemental kills 11:06:40 !lg * ikiller=ilsuiw s=killer 11:06:40 9 games for * (ikiller=ilsuiw): 4x a water elemental, 2x Ilsuiw, 2x a merfolk javelineer, 1x a merfolk 11:10:21 Damn, if Dashnine had just visited the Shoals three XLs earlier he could have died :( 11:10:46 Even when he leans on keys he has too much hp and mp to die :( 11:11:49 greensnark, What's Dashnine playing? 11:12:01 Btw, did the DS changes make it into 0.6? 11:12:32 He's playing a DS with spines :P 11:12:36 Iainuki: no 11:12:39 Iainuki: and hi! 11:12:40 Harpies don't like spines much either :'( 11:12:45 dpeg, Hi! 11:13:24 Real life has been sucking a lot of my time lately, I will have to play 0.6 at some point but that will probably have to wait until post Starcraft 2 beta :). 11:13:38 Actually, I meant to discuss that with rax 11:13:41 Iainuki: just wait until August :) 11:13:46 greensnark: spines? 11:13:48 SC2 release date will put the hurtin on Crawl tourney 11:13:48 Discuss which? 11:13:58 rax: SC2 is released end of July :P 11:14:03 Which is not good for August tourney :) 11:14:12 I'd stick to the date. 11:14:18 I don't know that there's much we can do about that. 11:14:26 We could delay the SC2 release :) 11:14:32 If you think there's a better date, I'd consider it, but every time will conflict with something. 11:14:33 Yes, July 27. 11:14:42 The coincidence is unfortunate. 11:14:42 It is a whole month; one can play both games during it. 11:14:44 I don't think there's a better date, unfortunately 11:14:48 Indeed. 11:15:01 June/July/August are really my only free months, too. :P 11:15:07 greensnark: if there are fewer players, my clan can perform better. 11:15:18 dpeg: I, uh, might also be playing a little SC2 11:15:20 :) 11:15:28 greensnark: addicts! 11:15:34 greensnark, Oh you too :)? 11:15:59 Iainuki: I played the original SC and Warcrafts, so I'll definitely try SC2 :) 11:16:02 * Adeon is not going to play SC2 11:16:05 * Adeon honestly! 11:16:07 I'm planning to not buy it; I figure either I'll play it or I won't, and both would be bad. 11:16:12 I got a beta invite from a friend. 11:16:19 rax, :) 11:16:24 * dpeg doesn't even know what the fuss is about. 11:16:34 rax, Is your schedule that bad? 11:16:34 * Zaba won't play SC2 because things run like crap in wine, and anything remotely advanced in 3d runs very slowly even natively. 11:16:43 Iainuki: Yes. 11:17:22 I've had a little more time lately, but I'm also trying to move an entire house in less than two weeks without tkaing any days off of work. 11:17:30 Once I hit June I'll be starting to settle in and only working full-time. 11:17:31 rax, ! 11:17:35 Right. 11:17:42 I have the madness. You know this. 11:17:55 (Question: are you going to be working full-time and getting your PhD at the same time?) 11:17:55 rax: you orderer some professional help for the move? 11:18:00 I wonder if 78291 plays SC2 11:18:00 I've gotten a chance to at least poke at CAO --- I'm really hoping to make some final hardware upgrades before I leave. 11:18:08 dpeg: No, just unemployed friends. 11:18:11 rax: leave? 11:18:18 greensnark, :) 11:18:22 Leave Boston. I'll be living in Indiana in two weeks. 11:18:46 CAO won't move with me --- it's happy in its colo --- but I want to upgrade a disk and grow the CAO partition and do a couple of other tweaks that require physical access. 11:18:48 rax, Are you driving a truck across country :)? 11:18:50 Hoooooooooopefully this weekend. 11:18:52 Iainuki: Yes! 11:18:57 Fun! 11:19:00 "I have done this." 11:19:05 rax: the perils of work, I guess? From what I've heard, people would rather like to move from Indiana to Boston? 11:19:18 dpeg: I'm going into a PhD program in Gender Studies there. 11:19:22 ah 11:19:33 Good thing there's genders everywhere :) 11:19:34 I will miss Boston, but the town I am moving to is awesome, and living there is amazingly cheaper than living in Boston. 11:19:38 I bought a house. 11:19:42 (Also, I did a very similar drive, though I was too young to drive a truck at that point, from Indiana to Harrisburg at one point in my life.) 11:19:56 * dpeg cannot drive a car. 11:20:21 dpeg, Bloomington is actually a nice city. I enjoyed living there, and if I ever end up there again, I probably will again. 11:20:49 I found a place to live that doesn't require driving on a daily basis, which makes me very happy. I can drive but don't like to. 11:21:42 dpeg, Since I have not really anywhere but suburbs, learning to drive is not really optional :). 11:22:05 Iainuki: yes, I am aware of that. 11:22:47 In some ways I would really prefer not to--I don't like driving, it's not fun and kind of stressful. This, however, is the US, and a long time ago, people made choices that make it very difficult for me to avoid driving. 11:23:10 You could move back to Bloomington! ;) Or to Boston or SF or something. 11:23:43 rax, Trying! The problem is that, with some exceptions, a lot of the US mass transit systems _really suck_. 11:23:55 My brother complains about how bad SF's is. 11:23:59 I mean, he still uses it. 11:24:38 But it's not like NYC's or the European ones. 11:25:00 "Also I wonder about the chances I'll end up in LA." 11:25:56 LA's public transit is not as bad as you might fear if you are willing to spend a long time on buses or plan where you live and where you work around it. 11:29:12 I've implemented the logic to determine if a player has the monstrous mutation set, and have this: http://pastie.org/945396 stuck into the SP_DEMONSPAWN in level_change in player.cc, but its rather ugly. Anyone think of a better way to implement? 11:30:54 Cryp71c: don't see why it is ugly. As greensnark pointed out, the message is grammatically not correct. 11:31:30 Well, yeah the message is meh, but having to loop over the whole demon_traits set isn't the best way to do it, I know...I just can't figure out a better way. 11:32:33 Cryp71c: You should have a function is_body_facet or similar to check whether a trait is a mutation 11:32:41 Instead of doing it in a nested loop 11:33:13 Also you join C strings by writing "A" "B" next to each other separated only by whitespace 11:33:28 oh ok, I couldnt figure that out :P had to typecast one 11:33:30 *whether a trait is a body facet mutation 11:34:06 rax, Huh. 11:35:25 Iainuki: ixplode@gmail.com add me 11:35:35 greensnark: Are you in the sc2 beta? 11:36:06 ixtli: Nope 11:36:11 Darn :( 11:36:13 Get it! 11:36:18 Actually we should just play war3 11:36:22 I'm better at that xD 11:36:33 I haven't played War 3 in years :) 11:36:54 Have it installed on this Mac though :) 11:37:02 greensnark: aren't you too old for those clickfests? :) 11:37:05 I was in the top 10 for a while when it first came out. 11:37:05 ixtli, I am, I'm thoroughly disappointed by the effectiveness of mass hydras :P 11:37:12 dpeg: Yeah, I always sucked at multiplayer :P 11:37:18 Cryp71c: Yeah they balanced it out. 11:37:21 Cryp71c: Add me. 11:37:31 I prefer LAN games with a small group of friends 11:37:40 dpeg: Hey now. It's an intensely strategic game ;) 11:37:48 greensnark: Joke's on you! 11:37:52 ixtli, you live in the US? 11:37:57 ixtli: if it somewhat like Warcraft 1 or 2, I don't believe you. 11:38:00 greensnark: Blizzard has decided that you DONT prefer that. 11:38:16 The kind where there are beers going around and you can scout out your opponent's base by peeking at their screen 11:38:17 dpeg: Somewhat in that the genres are the same :) 11:38:20 ixtli: Yes, I know 11:38:42 to me, RTS is an oxymoron 11:38:45 dpeg, Starcraft isn't a clickfest. 11:39:09 dpeg, Micro != clickfest 11:39:09 Of course it's not. They don't measure clicks per minute at all ;-) 11:39:10 Iainuki: not realtime anymore? Or not necessary to take care of every single unit anymore? 11:39:10 dpeg, And is nothing like WC1 or WC2. 11:39:38 dpeg: There is a lot more macro in this game. 11:39:44 yeah 11:39:46 dpeg, Micro has been reduced. But my point is more broadly there are a lot of strategic considerations. 11:39:46 War3, at least, was all about the micro. 11:39:59 Is it realtime or not? Do you have a billion units to move around the battlefield or not? 11:40:05 Yes and yes. 11:40:05 ixtli, na, you could do reasonably well if you had good macro and good neutralling 11:40:06 dpeg, It's real-time, and yes. 11:40:13 (Also, I should go eat.) 11:40:18 so never my cup of tea 11:40:23 ixtli, but to be anything better than above average you had to micro. 11:40:41 dpeg: I'm not good at them either. I prefer RPGs and games like DC. 11:40:48 However I'm just good enough at these to get into them for a while. 11:40:55 But the interests never lasts more than a few months. 11:41:08 I would like to see more Zerg units. Roaches and Banelings don't compare to the new 'Toss units. 11:41:13 dpeg: Also, what they do with custom maps should be seen as a positive point for the games. 11:41:14 It would be so possible to make good strategy games (even real time ones) without micromanagement, with few but very important units, etc. 11:41:26 The creativity people show with them is insane. 11:41:40 dpeg: Have you played Warcraft 3? 11:41:50 ixtli: no, I stopped after W2, thank god. 11:41:52 There's a lot of micro, but you never really make more than 20-30 units. 11:42:03 dpeg, WC3 is oodles better than SC1 and War2-3 11:42:04 And only up to 3 heros. 11:42:23 Yeah. I really loved war3. More than any other RTS except Total Annihilation. 11:42:23 Total Annihilation is better than all of 'em anyway. 11:42:27 Hahahhaa 11:42:28 Twinge, YES! 11:42:30 Twinge: <3 11:42:30 TA was great. 11:42:38 Twinge, played Supreme Commander? 11:42:40 Twinge: Also jinx 11:42:42 Its close 11:42:46 The very idea that battles are best simulated by having the commander command every little unit is so established... and at the same time so stupid. 11:42:48 ixtli: Indeed! 11:42:53 Cryp71c: was? 11:42:58 I never played TA, but I failed a lot in Spring. 11:43:00 Twinge, wha? 11:43:17 Twinge, SupCom2 isn't that old, its fairly recent. 11:43:20 Cryp71c: It still IS great, not merely was great. 11:43:27 TA was amazing. Best unit AI and an amazing show of graphics back in the day. 11:43:30 I really miss that game. 11:43:43 Twinge, ah, lol...its a bit old for my tastes in grphx and such. 11:43:45 ixtli, well, there's springrts.org 11:43:54 Whats this then? 11:43:57 ixtli, SupCom2 is pretty comparable, you might like it. 11:43:59 look at it 11:44:16 Cryp71c: I've played SupCom1 it only briefly; it didn't run well on my computer because of it's ridiculous system requirements and my somewhat old video card. From what I've seen and heard, though, it replaces the amazing balance of strategy and tactics with almost all strategy. 11:44:31 ixtli, it's got a bunch of TA-derived mods, for which it was originally developed 11:44:39 * dpeg wonders what strategy means to those folks. 11:44:54 Twinge, yeah its not quite as good as TA was, SupCom 1/2 is pretty much a tier2 spamfest, though I've heard its better nowadays. 11:45:00 Ok guys. 11:45:02 Look. 11:45:06 We can talk about this all night. 11:45:06 Also, TA itself is still alive. They recently released it on Impulse, and it outsold the Sins of a Soalr empire expansions for a couple weeks or something. 11:45:14 But it stands that Myth II was the greatest RTS in history. 11:45:17 And will never be beaten. 11:45:19 Ever. 11:45:22 dpeg, I'm pushing these unarmed combat revisions and monstrous DS implementations. 11:45:33 They're stable, afaik, and I'm not getting any other feedback on the code -_- 11:45:33 dpeg: I don't really try to define it. Being able to micro manage units effectively is always fun for me. 11:45:34 I haven't had a chance to get back into TA since then, but I imagine the playerbase has grown significantly 11:45:43 dpeg: If you've never played myth you might enjoy it. 11:45:51 yes, I would like to suggest discussing all this RTS chitchat in ##crawl-offtopic 11:45:52 dpeg: There is no building of units. Its all about control. 11:45:56 dpeg: Strategy is long-term planning; tactics is doing the best thing on the spot. 11:46:25 Interesting. 11:46:28 Cryp71c: yes, you have asked, I have asked, so I suggest you just go ahead and push. 11:47:24 dpeg, the only thing I lack is a properly structured monstrous message :) 11:47:54 Ah well. I do have to leave now, but I'll happily ramble about TA later ;D Or maybe we could all play sometime... 11:47:56 Cryp71c: "You feel that your monstrous heritage will soon arise."? 11:49:45 What is this message supposed to communicate? 11:49:59 greensnark, that they have the Monstrous DS mutation set 11:50:00 ??monstrous 11:50:00 monstrous[1/1]: A coming attraction: Mutation slot guaranteeing 5 body-slot facets and 2 other regular ds mutations ; 1 / 10 chance ; Gives "You feel monstrous" message when you gain your first body-slot facet. 11:50:50 greensnark: players should be aware that they'll get a bunch of bodily mutations (horns, hooves, tail etc.). 11:51:15 Yeah, it serves to indicate the need for a major shift in building their DS's skills. 11:51:24 Since you could start a DSFE and get Monstrous 11:51:29 Hm, Hellboy's horns? :) 11:52:24 "You feel monstrous as your demonic heritage exerts itself." 11:52:25 ? 11:52:46 sure 11:53:30 -!- Smee has joined ##crawl-dev 11:55:12 -!- nrook has joined ##crawl-dev 12:05:46 -!- nrook has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:15:01 03Cryp71c * r5a59108b0370 10/crawl-ref/source/ (8 files): Rewrite player_aux_unarmed for maintainability 12:15:21 Now to do the changes for added unarmed combat flavour 12:15:52 yay 12:18:06 dpeg, with the additoin of monstrous, I'd also like to implement Big Wings, Spiked Tail (or just Tail), and maybe make Fangs a DS mut, what do you think? 12:18:48 Cryp71c: sure, if we can fill them all with content. 12:19:02 and the chances between them shouldn't be equal, right? 12:20:00 correct 12:23:38 -!- Luca__ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:24:09 -!- Luca__ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:25:20 -!- stabwound has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:25:38 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 12:25:51 dpeg, what's an appropriate AC-ignore for kicks? 3 + MUT_HOOVES level * 2? 2.5? 3? 12:26:56 for hooves? 12:27:32 dpeg, for any kick aux attack, I had imagined that regular kicks would ignore some AC and having hooves would ignore more ac 12:27:46 Or we could have only having hooves ignore some ac 12:27:49 and leave regular kicks as is. 12:28:18 regular kicks should not ignore AC 12:28:31 k, then MUT_HOOVES * 3 12:28:32 ? 12:28:40 yes, sounds okay 12:29:09 dpeg, so our discussion regarding the other flavour for aux unarmed attacks, were you meaning those effects to only be present when the mutation is there? 12:29:17 (eg, headbutts and ministuns?) 12:29:24 (obviously bleeding can only happen if you have claws) 12:30:14 Cryp71c: it was your proposal to use those for DS mutations, and then I suggested to also use them in general. 12:30:29 right, that's what I thought 12:30:40 I just wanted to make sure I was clear on your perspective of the FR 12:31:39 later on, we may also want bleeding for blades and perhaps whips, but that's the future 12:31:49 oooo whips 12:38:08 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:44:23 greensnark: did you get my !tell ? 12:44:41 greensnark: i've been messing with irc clients so i may have missed your response 13:07:02 -!- eith_ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:07:41 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 13:09:41 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:10:38 -!- Smee has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:12:06 ixtli: The struct->class thing? :) 13:12:24 yeah 13:12:38 "When I'm really bored and have nothing better to do" 13:12:43 I see. 13:12:52 Damn. Everyone told me to send the patch to you :P 13:13:04 I also have a list of all the structs we need to look at. 13:13:08 I went through every one :P 13:13:38 Meh, whenever you get around to it. The thing is I imagine it'll get harder to merge as time goes on. 13:13:52 Though I get the feeling that no one has looked at some of these structs for a long time. 13:13:53 Does it touch tiles 13:14:05 No, Enne and I make classes :) 13:14:05 Ok, seems not to 13:14:07 And felrix :) 13:14:33 There's no rush, its a cleanup thing. 13:15:59 I have a few more patches too. They're for classes that required clean up to move away from structs. 13:16:15 The one I linked you to should only be very trivial changes. 13:16:36 But in the future it should discourage people from making classes with public data members. 13:16:54 It won't :) 13:16:59 I know :) 13:17:02 Because that's a blanket prohibition that doesn't make sense :P 13:17:14 03cg * rcd15fe398a26 10/crawl-ref/source/ (15 files): Changed structs that acted like classes to classes 13:17:20 There you go 13:17:28 Hehe thanks. 13:17:31 if it's a concrete object, it should be a class. If it's a binary blob, a struct but that's my opinion 13:17:54 There's a unique opinion on the subject for every C++ programmer :) 13:17:57 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:18:11 It's a little like brace style 13:18:15 Only muddier 13:18:36 Indeed. However I think the conceptual difference between a struct and a class is important. 13:19:02 If you have the same concepts in mind as the next person 13:19:22 Right, back to my work email 13:19:26 Well then it's about style, I guess. But there should be one. 13:19:37 -!- Smee has joined ##crawl-dev 13:19:58 a guide, that is. 13:20:05 There is a style guide 13:20:12 With lots of arbitrary rules :) 13:20:30 Arbitrary maybe, but consistency is very important. 13:20:38 Helps new people understand whats going on :) 13:20:52 If you want real consistency across a huge swathe of details, you need a lint tool that runs automatically 13:21:03 If you're not running lint tools, you need a few well-defined rules 13:21:12 If you have 200 rules, nobody will know them all :P 13:21:16 port it to java, there are better style checking tools there :) 13:21:43 Yeah, Java makes it harder to argue about C++ style pointless semantics 13:21:50 Actually there is a good lint tool by google, but it enforces its own stuff :) 13:21:50 Which is why the design patterns movement has such hold in Java :P 13:22:00 Heh this is true. 13:22:00 -!- Smee has quit [Client Quit] 13:22:34 I've actually become more tolerant of Java, although it is a terrible terrible language 13:22:40 Agreed. 13:22:44 On both counts. 13:22:45 It is way better than the mess that is Objective C 13:23:03 Really? I sort of like ObjC's syntax. 13:23:08 -!- Luca__ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:23:19 Sure I'd prefer C/C++ over it, but I definitely prefer it to Java :( 13:23:21 You also like editing 5 places to define an object property? :P 13:23:24 -!- Luca__ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:23:36 Heh ok point taken. 13:23:51 But I do think the code looks prettier when you follow the NeXT/Apple guidelines. 13:24:01 greensnark, compare it to languages that don't even know what object properties are :) 13:24:10 Objective C has affected my variable naming positively 13:24:19 I tend to use clearer variable names since I've used Obj C 13:24:20 look, lets all just agree to disagree and use python! 13:24:28 But it's disastrously unnecessarily verbose 13:24:33 if there were no java, all those programmers would do C or C++! that's IMO the best argument PRO java 13:24:39 NO! ruby! 13:24:59 Java code is typically less than 50% the size of comparable Objective C code 13:25:01 I think the reason why I prefer objc over java is because of, as you say, the var naming. 13:25:15 yeah but its self documenting in that way. 13:25:31 And when you consider that languages like Scala which are usually less than 50% the size of comparable Java code 13:25:47 Shows you how absurd Obj C is 13:25:58 ixtli: The var naming is nice, but that's the only nice thing :P 13:26:20 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 13:26:32 I enjoy the message passing syntax. But you're right, its very verbose and god is it annoying to define objects. 13:26:52 Does Xcode automate property creation any better these days? 13:27:16 I mean, I dunno what it was like Before, but you can make it do all that @synthesize crap for you now. 13:27:18 Because writing one line in the interface declaration, one property line, one synthesize line and one dealloc line really gets old quick 13:27:40 Also IB tends to make it unnecessary to even make the files 13:27:45 If you know how to use it, that is. 13:27:46 And if it's a an IBOutlet you probably have to add one viewDidUnload line also 13:28:02 Ah, IB does that for you? Nice 13:28:12 Doesn't help with the non-IB classes though :) 13:28:32 True, but ... well ... I dunno. Write your data intensive things in C ? 13:28:34 :D 13:29:04 I guess I just really enjoy using apples APIs once you get used to them. Threading is like a non-issue when you're not doing anything overly complex. 13:29:09 "Objective C sucks so much we only use it for UI!" 13:29:10 the whole "interface file is needed" shows where the language is coming fromt 13:29:13 Things that are here: 13:29:14 _an animal skin; the human corpse of freed slave 13:29:29 dpeg: Grammar concerns? :) 13:29:42 A lot of renamed monsters have distressing grammar edge cases :) 13:30:48 greensnark: yes 13:31:13 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:32:39 dpeg: Should file a bug :) 13:34:43 will do 13:40:54 ...you brands from slings don't get applied to sling bullets, but they get applied to stones...is this intentional? 13:40:59 s/you/your 13:42:33 don't think so, no 13:43:52 go go gadget BR 13:45:11 ah, nevermind. it does work properly 13:45:15 I was just missing the animation, somehow. 13:51:13 -!- mmt has joined ##crawl-dev 13:52:15 -!- mmt has quit [Client Quit] 13:53:29 -!- Abuse has joined ##crawl-dev 14:06:19 Cryp71c: 1. why do you bunch two barely related changes into one commit? 2. please add braces in multi-line "if" statements (I've said this before) 3. first thing I looked at in the commit seems to be an obvious bug: Ely blocking doesn't actually appear to cause the attack to be prevented 14:11:35 -!- sorear has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:11:52 -!- sorear has joined ##crawl-dev 14:17:18 by, 1) I'm aware of it, I've tried to seperate the commits out by relevant content changed, the change got clobbered together in a series of commits in my github 2) you're referring to multi-lined (but single-statement) if statements? 14:17:38 yes 14:17:49 oh a bug 14:18:04 * Abuse screams. 14:18:08 kill it! 14:18:44 you should probably practice a little with git; it's really not that difficult to split commits 14:19:41 by, I have been, actually. Though admittedly I hadn't figured out splitting one commit into multiple ones. I'll look into that, I'm sure I can get some good google results on it. 14:19:46 and it's nearly always possible to fix screwups *in your own repo* 14:20:10 also, I really really think that a "rewrite for maintainability" that changes function significantly should a) state that it changes function and b) explain how it changes function 14:20:20 Cryp71c: one way is with 'git rebase -i HEAD^' and change 'pick' to one of the other verbs (depending on what you want to do) 14:20:32 so we can tell if it's intentional that shield users and double-handed weapon users now get more unarmed attacks, etc 14:21:05 -!- by has quit [Quit: food] 14:21:56 !tell by it didn't significantly change funcitonality, but In the followup commit to fix the things you mentioned I'll explain (in depth) a bit more on the rewrite. 14:21:56 Cryp71c: OK, I'll let by know. 14:22:15 (re 'nearly' safe, be careful with git gc (by default it runs automatically from time to time)) 14:24:13 k, posted bug. 14:25:00 monster drops dont get seen by ^X (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1489) by Abuse 14:27:43 Cryp71c: don't be offended by by, just learn from him. 14:28:30 dpeg, oh I'm not. He spent a bit of time helping me initially review the first bits of my rewrite and how to improve it. 14:28:56 Cryp71c: ah ok. His tone is very technical, but don't worry. 14:31:14 -!- Abuse has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:31:17 gotta catch the last shop 14:31:19 cheers 14:31:44 03Cryp71c * r279291369dd4 10/crawl-ref/source/fight.cc: Fix formatting & Notes for Aux Unarmed Rewrite 14:34:46 KiloByte didn't understand my point :/ 14:35:45 -!- Abuse has joined ##crawl-dev 14:35:52 but still: food shop 14:36:02 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:36:30 bye 14:38:05 03greensnark * rfe169c6b5fc8 10/crawl-ref/source/dgn-shoals.cc: 14:38:05 Experimental Shoals change to give shallow water a greater depth range. The 14:38:05 ratio of land to water is still (roughly) the same, but the extra shallow water 14:38:05 should improve connectivity and encourage players to get their toes wet. 14:57:02 03greensnark * rdc67aa6ca525 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/shoals.des: Remove shallow water from Ilsuiw's hut -- players without lev/fly might teleport there and be trapped. 15:04:54 hmm, couldn't players Sunlight an area of water and get trapped that way? 15:05:01 (and would you consider it their own fault if they did?) 15:06:06 The tide will only fill in sunlight-cleared areas when it's rising 15:06:26 If you run out of sunlight piety, well, tough luck 15:06:27 03kilobyte * r43a80dde598a 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-cast.cc: No squirting ink on land, please! 15:09:41 -!- by has joined ##crawl-dev 15:10:14 Make darts ignore armour with some throwing skill (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1490) by ledtim 15:10:58 -!- Smee has joined ##crawl-dev 15:15:15 items (maybe monsters too) concealed by clouds show up on ^X. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1491) by Abuse 15:15:26 by, those things are fixed, and with that commit is an explanation of the changes of the unarmed_aux rewrite. 15:15:54 03Cryp71c * rade2f71bd7f0 10/crawl-ref/source/mutation.cc: Address Mantis 1331 and 1474 15:18:14 -!- ixtli has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:18:41 but still, fighters with shields or two-handed weapons now get 1/3 more unarmed attacks... 15:18:41 by: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 15:19:43 I'm unhappy with the whole thing; especially the fact that the only third-party input seems to be dpeg worrying about my tone 15:21:25 it feels like a huge waste of time to have me finding bug after bug in this change 15:21:30 Is this re the aux unarmed refactoring commit 5a59108b0370ed 15:21:39 yes 15:21:43 by, where are you finding that fighters with shields /two handed weapons now get 1/3 more unarmed attacks? 15:22:00 used to 1/2 chance for a punch, now it's down to 1/3 15:22:03 Was it just a refactor or did it intend to make gameplay changes 15:22:20 greensnark, part refactor, part (minor) change 15:22:29 but it should've been mostly a refactor. 15:22:32 as I see it, the code was too complex for Cryp71c to refactor, and I've said so pretty clearly 15:22:56 aux_unarmed was deeply messy, yes 15:23:06 by, the exact same logic for punching is used presently as was used previously. 15:23:22 by, one second, let me cross-reference the old code to be certain. 15:24:24 -!- ortoslon has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:24:39 baseattack was UNAT_PUNCH with chance 1/2 now it's UNAT_PUNCH with chance 1/3 15:25:03 UNAT_PUNCH is never carried out when wielding a two-hander, same now as before 15:28:34 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:28:43 -!- nrook has joined ##crawl-dev 15:29:50 by, yes, all of this is correct, and yes your original statement regarding fighters getting more unarmed attacks was (slightly) correct. They previously had a 25% chance to do a headbutt, a 25% chance to do a kick and 50% chance to do nothing, that's now shifted slightly to be 33% chance of each. 15:30:17 So its not 1/3 more, its 33-25=8 * 2 = 16% more unarmed changes, which was anticipated and intentional. 15:30:36 s/changes/attacks 15:31:06 Why are we increasing aux unarmed attacks? 15:31:26 I always think of these things in terms of a percentage increase; 33% more unarmed attacks is not a small amount. 15:31:59 I'd forgotten what a comedic mess player_aux_unarmed was 15:33:43 Furthermore, can_do_unarmed is a boolean representative of the characters ability to fight unarmed, which factors in unarmed skill, current armour use, etc. etc. And it is presently used to determine if any non-mutation based aux attacks can be made. That being said, the 16% increase is only even significant for light-armour'd shield+weapon (or two-handed weapon) wielders who shouldn't be given aux attacks so rarely. 15:34:31 does sif muna increase of piety on training spell skills include spellcasting, or just the different schools 15:34:35 I'd be very wary of casually increasing player damage output in general 15:35:00 greensnark, I can appreciate that approach, certainly there is always the potential for aux attacks to get out of control. 15:35:00 Abuse: I think it includes spellcasting, but not absolutely sure 15:35:08 k 15:35:38 I'd suggest sticking to the existing probabilities unless there are powerful arguments to hand out bonus aux unarmed attacks 15:36:01 (and I don't think there are powerful arguments, at least as things stand now) 15:36:22 greensnark, part of the change in probability was to make those probabilities more transparent. The old code was unintelligibly convoluted with regard to proabilities. 15:36:34 Cryp71c: I agree that the old code is junk 15:36:50 I appreciate the idea of cleaning it up to the point of comprehensibility 15:36:52 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 15:37:02 I just think we shouldn't disturb balance in the process 15:37:17 The goatboy has returned 15:37:24 !coffee Zaba 15:37:24 * Henzell hands Zaba a pot of black coffee, brewed by the Serpent of Hell. 15:37:31 That ought to wake you up 15:38:31 greensnark, which is why I went above and beyond, jumping through hoops to invert to the old logic so that the same mechanics could be maintained using the opposite of the old boolean logic. 15:40:05 by, I'm sorry dpeg jumped on your tone, I wasn't bothered by what you had said, apparently he thought I would be. I'm also sorry you have been the only one to review the rewrite. That being said, my understanding of the code was solid, as was my understanding of the probabilities, clearing up the old code and inverting the logic was bound to cause bugs, many of which you identified for me. 15:40:17 s/your tone/you for your tone/ 15:41:23 "my understanding of the code was solid" -- that's my main problem, I don't believe it; I would much rather you'd said at some point that you don't quite understand parts of it 15:42:28 by, when I was talking to you last week I had said that there were parts I was still analyzing, but after a couple of hours, it was fairly obvious its operation. It wasn't any complex recursive code, it just took enough time to a) read over all of the code b) cross reference the secondary functions that were used in it and c) piece it all together again. 15:43:59 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:44:30 by, given the mess it USED to be, and the state its in now, I'm baffled as to how you can suggest any lack of understanding on it. The shifts in probability were intentional. The Elyvilon code not exiting out was a very specific case I hadn't tested and the code had gotten modified when I was copying / pasting it around (the return that's in now got dropped off). The only other thing you'd complained about was using 15:44:30 braces to encapsulate multi-lined (single-statement) "if" code. 15:45:48 Cryp71c: It might help to document the changes in probability if they're intentional 15:46:10 Given the balance concerns 15:46:12 by, sorry, that was my other shortcoming, my commit message was abysmally empty and uninformative. 15:46:39 greensnark, certainly, and that was my fault. the new code wasn't terribly well documented, nor was the commit. 15:47:33 I'm rewriting the probabilities so that they're the old values again, since there seems to be (obvious, and justified) concern over the damage output of aux attacks. 15:47:40 Give me a few, the commit will be up. 15:47:58 Thanks 15:50:52 Minor suggestions: damage_brand should be of type brand_type in unarmed_attack_data 15:51:02 The assertion ASSERT(UNAT_FIRST <= type <= UNAT_LAST) is broken 15:51:14 It should be UNAT_FIRST <= type && type <= UNAT_LAST 15:51:41 I'll do a closer review when I get time, off to bed 15:52:10 st_: Boo at Shoals at XL 22 :( 15:52:40 soz :( 15:52:54 just want this game done 15:53:39 Cryp71c: there were a series of other errors in your change that pointed at a lack of understanding 15:53:58 e.g., at one point nagas were getting kicks 15:54:15 but I really don't think going through the backlogs is productive 15:55:29 it should not be the case that looking at the change 4 times, I find 6 obvious changes in behaviour, never mind all the more subtle bugs that you don't find just by reading 15:56:27 note that not understanding is perfectly fine; I found the code difficult myself 15:56:47 I still don't understand the old code 15:56:54 I shall have a look at it when I'm more awake :P 15:57:30 yes; good night everybody 15:57:59 -!- by has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:04:34 03Cryp71c * r870de8f6f67f 10/crawl-ref/source/fight.cc: Change aux attack distributions slightly 16:05:12 03Cryp71c * r8f179e0d1004 10/crawl-ref/source/fight.cc: Cleanup testing code 16:05:54 There, old % of each unarmed attack are there. 16:11:14 So, anyone else have any bitching to do regarding my rewrite? 16:15:44 Pardon my frustration, by has me flustered. I'll be back tomorrow. 16:15:52 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:19:42 -!- Abuse has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:29:40 -!- Luca__ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:29:58 -!- Luca__ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:32:19 -!- syllogism has quit [] 17:07:29 -!- Smee has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:13:49 -!- mspang has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:28:45 -!- Luca__ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:28:59 -!- Luca__ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:06:20 morning 18:06:20 due: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 18:06:32 !messages 18:06:32 (1/2) dpeg said (8h 29m 15s ago): What do you think about putting part of the Erinya loot behind trees? 18:06:36 !messages 18:06:36 (1/1) dpeg said (8h 22m 45s ago): What about Eringya's map growing all kinds of plants from corpses? Not just toadstools, but also mushrooms, ballistomycetes, oklobs. 18:06:50 Hm, interesting. 18:09:28 Why bother with rewriting something if you don't understand it/ 18:28:53 -!- Abuse has joined ##crawl-dev 18:32:54 03dolorous * rfd6b7f54c4be 10/crawl-ref/docs/changelog.txt: Add more changelog entries for 0.7. 18:32:57 03dolorous * rfa1e2e9b16d9 10/crawl-ref/docs/changelog.txt: Add punctuation fix. 18:36:02 idea: mudkipz 18:36:20 i herd u liek them 18:38:44 due: you just answered your own question didn't you ? don't some people immediately try to rewrite whatever they don't understand ? 18:40:41 philsnow: Basically, yes. 18:41:22 item description missing for 'needle (runed)' (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1492) by Fangorn 18:42:32 -!- Abuse has quit [] 18:55:06 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 19:02:18 -!- ixtli has joined ##crawl-dev 19:02:36 hi 19:45:22 -!- Danei has joined ##crawl-dev 19:58:26 -!- eith_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:00:23 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 21:06:06 -!- Zao has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:09:25 -!- Zao has joined ##crawl-dev 21:28:24 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 21:28:43 Hola. 21:29:56 oh no it's cryptic I'm out of here 21:30:03 (jk hi dude, although I really am leaving) 21:31:50 -!- nrook has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:50:42 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:59:40 -!- Zao has quit [Quit: Changing hosts] 23:08:05 -!- Zao has joined ##crawl-dev