00:01:48 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev
00:07:11 <Cryp71c> doy, sorry for more simple git issues. I have a file which is preventing my rebase. "cannot rebase: you have unstaged changes. " "M          crawl-ref/source/contrib/Contribs.sln"
00:07:27 <doy> are you using visual studio?
00:07:37 <Cryp71c> no, msysgit
00:07:46 <Cryp71c> wait, for editing?
00:07:51 <doy> for anything
00:07:53 <Cryp71c> no
00:08:15 <doy> then you don't have your newlines configured properly
00:08:23 <doy> greensnark: what's that option?
00:08:48 <doy> (at least, i think that's the issue)
00:09:37 <Cryp71c> doy, na I inadvertently changed contribs and now I can't drop those changes.
00:10:00 <doy> git checkout crawl-ref/source/contrib/Contribs.sln
00:13:04 <Cryp71c> doy, no, that doesn't help either ... GAH!
00:13:46 <doy> why does msysgit fail so hard at handling visual studio files
00:13:50 <doy> i don't understand
00:14:18 <Cryp71c> it worked before as well...i'm not sure what's going on.
00:18:19 <Cryp71c> doy, if I do git reset HEAD^ it actually rolls back the changes, so if I drop those changes (via a reset --hard, for example) the entire commit is rolled back?
00:18:32 <doy> what?
00:18:50 <Cryp71c> Does git reset HEAD^ actually change the history of the repo, or just the actual files?
00:19:19 <doy> git reset HEAD^ doesn't touch the actual files at all
00:19:28 <doy> it just removes the top commit
00:19:39 <doy> and leaves the changes from that top commit as unstaged
00:21:13 <greensnark> Cryp71c: git config --global core.autocrlf false
00:24:39 <greensnark> doy: I think the visual studio files have a mix of LF and CRLF
00:24:51 <greensnark> Because Visual Studio is teh smart
00:25:00 <greensnark> Haven't actually checked though
00:25:33 <greensnark> yeah, vim says mixed endings
00:27:04 <greensnark> "< Romestamo> In every single game of mine, when a god gifts me a weapon, there's always at  least one artifact named 'Paenis'. Why?!"
00:29:03 -!- ortoslon has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
00:29:32 <doy> haha what
00:29:42 -!- jld has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
00:30:18 -!- jld has joined ##crawl-dev
00:30:28 <Cryp71c> doy, have time / mind if I continue asking about relatively noobish git questions? Google is failing me and #git is dead.
00:31:34 <doy> go for it
00:32:32 <Cryp71c> if I git am patch_file and it comes back with 1 (or more) "patch does not apply" firstly, did all the other changes get applied, or did it skip the whole patch?
00:33:06 <Cryp71c> (presuming I'm only using am to patch a single patch-file and not a series of patch-files)
00:33:19 <doy> not sure, but why are you still using git am?
00:33:34 <Cryp71c> someone recommended it to me over git apply
00:33:39 <Cryp71c> I can't remember who
00:34:04 <doy> well, me
00:34:09 <doy> but why do you have patch files
00:34:40 <Cryp71c> doy, somehow I've wiped out my demonspawn branch to be == master in my own foolishness.
00:34:54 <doy> the nice thing about git is
00:35:01 <doy> you can never actually wipe things out like that
00:35:05 <doy> stop messing with patch files
00:35:23 <Cryp71c> doy, k, well I deleted the old demonspawn branch and created a new one (same name), I presume the history still applies?
00:35:49 <doy> check out the demonspawn branch
00:35:58 <Cryp71c> k, on it.
00:36:06 <doy> and do "git reflog <branchname>"
00:36:31 <doy> then find the commit you want to get back to, and copy the hash for it
00:36:33 <Cryp71c> I get a usage error, "git reflog [ show | expire | delete ]"
00:36:36 <Cryp71c> show?
00:36:39 <doy> yeah, show
00:36:57 <doy> and then do "git reset --hard <commit hash>"
00:37:24 <Cryp71c> I only have 1, "{hash} demonspawn@{0} : branch : created from master
00:37:54 <doy> just do "git reflog show HEAD" then
00:38:00 <Cryp71c> yeah, got it now
00:39:39 <Cryp71c> excellent, thanks doy, saved me tons of hassle there. reflog was a key command I've been missing.
00:39:53 <Cryp71c> was even able to step back before the Contrib mess.
00:39:55 <doy> it is quite important
00:40:09 <Cryp71c> yeah, I knew there had to be a command to get history, but didn't know it.
00:43:00 <Cryp71c> doy, is there anyway to get a listing of branches like reflog does a history of commits?
00:43:38 <sorear> reflog isn't really history, it's better to think of it as metahistory
00:43:40 <doy> what do you mean?
00:43:43 <sorear> Cryp71c: git branch -a
00:50:40 <Cryp71c> doy, I used reflog to get the hash of the commit I needed to switch back to, did it, and it appears that it made the appropriate changes, but to master instead of the branch 'demonspawn'
00:51:20 <doy> Cryp71c: did you checkout the demonspawn branch before doing the reset?
00:52:04 <doy> my guess would be no
00:52:16 <Cryp71c> no
00:52:24 <Cryp71c> I thought that would happen automatically, didn't think about it.
00:52:27 <doy> to fix that, checkout the demonspawn branch
00:52:43 <doy> then "git reset --hard master", "git checkout master", "git reset --hard origin/master"
00:54:23 <Cryp71c> doy, does my branch history look correct? I thought I dit it the correct way, but it looks backwards (was trying to get demonspawn to be a branch off of master): http://github.com/burnhamrobertp/DCSS/network
00:55:05 <doy> why do you have a merge commit
00:55:46 <Cryp71c> IDK, I don't recall doing that
00:56:05 <doy> it looks fine except for that merge commit
00:57:48 <doy> well
00:58:03 <doy> it doesn't look fine, because the demonspawn branch isn't rebased onto the top of master
00:58:36 <doy> oh, what probably happened is that you did "git pull" while your demonspawn changes were on top of master
00:58:42 <doy> that's where the merge came from
00:59:18 <doy> do "git checkout master", "git reset --hard HEAD^", "git checkout demonspawn", "git rebase master"
01:00:10 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev
01:21:43 -!- ortoslon has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
02:07:21 -!- Spads has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
02:16:12 -!- stabwound has quit [Disconnected by services]
02:16:14 -!- stabwound- has joined ##crawl-dev
02:29:05 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev
02:38:30 <greensnark> Heh, plants can get knocked back by aquamancer waves :P
02:39:12 <elly> heh!
02:46:26 <Cryp71c> greensnark, is that SQLITE_HAS_CODEC bug still around, or was it fixed? I'm getting it again but I didn't recall seeing it the last time I built?
02:47:47 <greensnark> I think that's fixed
02:47:55 <Cryp71c> ...hrm...
02:47:57 <greensnark> Have you updated your submodules
02:48:27 <Cryp71c> greensnark, can I delete all of contrib/ and re-run the submodules update --init?
02:49:55 <greensnark> Cryp71c: git submodules update not doing anything?
02:50:04 <greensnark> If your submodules need update git status should tell you
02:50:22 <Cryp71c> greensnark, yeah it does, but if I'm on my demonspawn branch, it seems to pull an old version of the submodules.
02:50:37 <greensnark> haven't you rebased that branch onto master?
02:50:54 <Cryp71c> greensnark, I did earlier, and it fouled up so I'm having to re-do it again.
02:51:13 <greensnark> Once you rebase onto master, your branch should have the right submodule refs
02:51:22 <greensnark> Or maybe not, I'm hazy on submodules :)
02:51:29 <Cryp71c> git checkout demonspawn; git rebase master ?
02:51:31 <Cryp71c> correct?
02:51:42 <greensnark> Yeah, that should d oti
02:51:45 <greensnark> * do it
02:52:28 <greensnark> Let me check if master actually fixed it
02:52:30 <Cryp71c> hrm, I had to force that rebase..
02:52:37 <Cryp71c> er, the push after the rebase.
02:52:53 <Cryp71c> woohoo! that looks correct.
02:53:35 <greensnark> Cryp71c: Yes, if you're pushing to github after rebase you'll have to force it
02:53:46 <Cryp71c> greensnark, why is that, do you know?
02:53:51 <greensnark> Because rebasing rearranged history
02:54:18 <greensnark> Ok, the codec whining is still present and correct in master
02:54:38 <greensnark> "Woe is me, SQLITE_HAS_CODEC is not defined!"
02:54:42 <Cryp71c> greensnark, so I still will be getting those SQLITE_HAS_CODEC warnings?
02:54:43 <greensnark> Anyway, you can ignore it
02:54:46 <greensnark> Yes
02:54:47 <Cryp71c> k
02:54:58 <Cryp71c> I could've sworn I made before without seeing it...
02:55:04 -!- Xiberia has joined ##crawl-dev
02:58:25 <Cryp71c> greensnark, ....gah! I'm getting a build error in a file I havn't touched wiz-you.cc
02:59:41 -!- voker57 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
03:00:10 <greensnark> The problem is on line 666
03:00:35 <greensnark> You could pastebin the error messages :P
03:00:44 <Cryp71c> greensnark, so that's not something out-of-date on my end, everyone pulling trunk would get that build error?
03:01:17 <Cryp71c> lol, sorry. I immediately switched back to master and built again, thinking my rebase on my demonspawn branch didn't work properly, and files were out of date (and causing the build failures)
03:01:53 <Cryp71c> and I can't copy / paste out of msysgit
03:01:56 <Cryp71c> its really annoying.
03:02:00 <greensnark> Why nnot
03:02:07 <Cryp71c> Because windows is shitty, IDK.
03:02:18 <greensnark> You can copy-paste from windows consoles
03:02:27 <Cryp71c> I don't even have character highlighting
03:02:30 <greensnark> Right-click and select copy iirc
03:02:52 <greensnark> You can also edit properties and enable quickedit mode, which will allow you to free select and copy
03:03:08 <Cryp71c> ...nooOOoooOo! master builds properly, so something is fouled up in my demonspawn branch?
03:03:15 <greensnark> And for make output you can redirect output to a file
03:03:28 <greensnark> make 2>&1 | tee make.output.txt
03:03:47 <greensnark> And open make.output.txt in a decent text editor that can handle unix line endings :)
03:07:20 <Cryp71c> greensnark, git submodule update --init fails on my demonspawn branch, but works perfectly on master...
03:07:47 <Cryp71c> Unable to checkout '46871e6ab529f7643668f22ec7e97441edd2e2f7' in submodule path
03:07:47 <Cryp71c> 'crawl-ref/source/contrib/sqlite'
03:09:39 * greensnark mews.
03:09:44 <Cryp71c> lol
03:09:56 <greensnark> I usually just delete the guilty submodule and run update --init again
03:10:08 <greensnark> I don't know much about submodules :P
03:10:49 <Cryp71c> "fatal: reference is not a tree: 46871e6ab529f7643668f22ec7e97441edd2e2f7"
03:11:00 <greensnark> That sounds exciting
03:11:01 <Cryp71c> apparently the sqllite its trying to checkout doesn't exist in demonspawn....?
03:11:09 <Cryp71c> which it should...? :(
03:11:10 <CIA-43> 03greensnark * r35a1096e2ea1 10/crawl-ref/source/beam.cc: Don't allow aquamancer wave to knock back immobile monsters (Pacra)
03:12:56 -!- Spads has joined ##crawl-dev
03:13:54 <greensnark> Cryp71c: What does git submodule status | grep sqlite say?
03:14:00 -!- voker57 has joined ##crawl-dev
03:16:46 <Cryp71c> greensnark, one sec.
03:23:04 <Cryp71c> alrighty! it built.
03:27:36 <Cryp71c> greensnark, once I get this all setup for by, whats the easiest way to get it to him? He said not to bother with patchfiles, URL of my github repo?
03:27:52 <greensnark> Yes, and the branch he should pull from
03:28:08 <Xiberia> @??joseph
03:28:08 <Gretell> Joseph (10@) | Speed: 10 | HD: 7 | Health: 66 | AC/EV: 0/10 | Damage: 9 | Res: 06magic(46) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 610.
03:29:02 <Xiberia> sorry, tabbed to the wrong channel
03:29:15 <greensnark> Xiberia: Congrats on Joseph death :)
03:29:22 <Xiberia> thanks!
03:29:27 <greensnark> !tell due < Gretell> Xiberia the Charm-Maker (L8 VpEn), worshipper of Okawaru, shot by Joseph (runed  sling bullet) on D:8, with 2215 points after 7952 turns and 0:30:08.
03:29:27 <Henzell> greensnark: OK, I'll let due know.
03:32:55 <Xiberia> greensnark, first joseph death or what?
03:33:13 <greensnark> No idea
03:33:21 <greensnark> But Joseph using slings was due's idea
03:33:34 <Xiberia> yeah it was surprising
03:33:38 <sorear> hey, bhaak is playing
03:34:02 <greensnark> He often does this
03:34:13 <greensnark> He has been ASSIMILATED
03:34:33 <greensnark> Of course, he still hacks NetHack for some morbid reason
03:34:42 <greensnark> Perhaps a penance of some sort
03:34:44 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev
03:34:54 <elly> eugh, greensnark
03:35:00 <elly> hey dpeg
03:35:22 <greensnark> deepegg
03:35:31 -!- voker57 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
03:37:15 <bhaak> greensnark: it's called espionage
03:37:34 <greensnark> We welcome spies!
03:37:55 <greensnark> Once they've seen the glories of Crawl their native lands seem pale, washed out, and dreadfully infested with Elbereth by comparison
03:38:01 <Cryp71c> !tell by Demonspawn stuff is done, everything should be up to date on my github: git://github.com/burnhamrobertp/DCSS.git branch name is demonspawn
03:38:01 <Henzell> Cryp71c: OK, I'll let by know.
03:38:13 <Cryp71c> G'night
03:38:16 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
03:38:41 <sorear> greensnark: I think we could cure him with a crash course in git and a commit bit.  Dunno if it's worth it
03:39:33 * elly remains blissfully uncured
03:40:00 <greensnark> elly: But you play Angband, which practically makes you an alien :P
03:40:17 <elly> :P
03:40:20 <elly> I guess
03:40:22 <greensnark> Naturally the Crawl magic does not work on xenomorphs
03:40:26 <elly> it is the opposite roguelike from crawl
03:40:36 <Xiberia> you..survive?
03:40:42 <elly> no
03:40:46 <greensnark> You farm!
03:40:47 <elly> while (!won) { grind(); }
03:40:54 <elly> I find it very relaxing
03:40:58 <greensnark> Ok, grinding works too
03:40:59 <Xiberia> haha
03:41:13 <Adeon> farmband
03:41:25 <dpeg> Morning everyone!
03:41:27 <greensnark> It's like relaxing by watching an Adam Sandler movie
03:41:33 <dpeg> So many Mantis mail every day :)
03:41:43 <greensnark> It might seem superficially entertaining, but you're suffering irreversible brain damage :P
03:41:46 <elly> no it's not, greensnark :P
03:41:56 <elly> I only play angband when my brain is offline anyway
03:41:59 <dpeg> Damn, missed cryptic's departure.
03:42:01 <elly> if my brain works, I'm hacking :P
03:42:40 <dpeg> Who are we picking on today?
03:42:48 <elly> not sure
03:42:52 <elly> it might be me
03:43:11 <bhaak> sorear: you're talking about me? then you don't need the git crash course, I already am used to it
03:43:19 <greensnark> We're just ragging users of $OTHERGAME
03:43:34 <greensnark> In defense of Angband players, at least they're not WoW players
03:43:50 <elly> I played WoW for a couple of months :P
03:43:55 <greensnark> :P
03:43:57 <bhaak> crawl ATM works for me as coffee-break-roguelike. if I play nh I must concentrate
03:44:12 <bhaak> with crawl I hit o till it doesn't work anymore :)
03:44:22 <dpeg> bhaak: of course. How many sheets of paper do you need when playing NH?
03:44:39 <elly> oh snap.
03:44:52 <elly> greensnark: how's this for irony?
03:44:54 <elly> :P
03:44:55 <bhaak> then I press f a few times or directionskeys and the o again :)
03:45:15 <greensnark> elly: Didn't seem very ironic :P
03:45:20 <elly> aw
03:45:26 <dpeg> bhaak: Berserkers are the closest we have to pure unadultered dungeon stomping, I guess.
03:45:48 <greensnark> Berserkers are fun, especially when they meet Prince Ribbit for the first time
03:45:55 <dpeg> I can confirm that elly is an alien. He/she/it is awake, no matter what time or day.
03:46:05 <greensnark> "RARGH! Wait, where are you going! Come back!"
03:46:05 <elly> dpeg: she, please :)
03:46:12 <dpeg> elly: thanks
03:46:19 <dpeg> greensnark: <3
03:46:22 <elly> dpeg: that is because I am about 40% very clever irssi script
03:46:27 <dpeg> "Just a little smooch!"
03:46:44 <dpeg> elly: hm, I could use clever irssi scripts.
03:46:51 <elly> you could!
03:46:51 <bhaak> dpeg: my two ascensions done locally have ~700 lines each in their notes file
03:47:00 <greensnark> bhaak: ...
03:47:14 <greensnark> So NetHack is an exercise in essay writing? :P
03:47:41 * dpeg is slightly disturbed about how far those NH types push the envelope.
03:47:44 <greensnark> "On this fine morn of March, I did discover ye brave fountainne I may use to uncurse ye stuffe!"
03:47:53 <bhaak> oh, but that includes the dumps. So it's only about 200 lines
03:48:11 <elly> dealso, it's only 0448 here!
03:48:14 <elly> er, dpeg:
03:48:33 <greensnark> elly: You don't sleep much, do you?
03:48:49 <elly> greensnark: that is a matter of opinion
03:48:52 <bhaak> Ribbit runs away? didn't notice, maybe he likes me?
03:48:57 <elly> greensnark: gotta find time for all that grinding somehow
03:49:01 <greensnark> bhaak: Well, he blinks
03:49:31 <greensnark> elly: Aha, you should have said so from the beginning! You use Angband as a cure for insomnia? :)
03:49:40 <elly> greensnark: I do not!
03:49:46 <elly> greensnark: I am very awake right now, in fact
03:49:46 <greensnark> Aww, another theory shot
03:49:53 <elly> I will probably sleep from 0600 to 1000 or so
03:50:11 <greensnark> 4 hours seems like too little unless you catnap through the day
03:50:16 <greensnark> Or have very unusual sleep requirement
03:50:24 <greensnark> But anyway, OT :)
03:50:34 <greensnark> Let's get back to NH bashing, which is the primary purpose of this channel
03:50:54 <greensnark> bhaak: Fixed Elbereth yet? :)
03:50:56 <Xiberia> i've never played nh
03:50:58 <Xiberia> tell me what to hate
03:51:07 <greensnark> Xiberia: It starts with "E"
03:51:09 <elly> greensnark: my sleep schedule is fucked :P
03:51:24 <Xiberia> greensnark, ends with "lbereth"?
03:51:30 <greensnark> Xiberia: Bingo
03:51:33 <Xiberia> i see.
03:51:48 <bhaak> you all are just in nh denial!
03:51:48 <greensnark> After a few weeks of NH, it will appear to you that Elbereth is actually a good thing
03:51:55 <greensnark> We call this "NH brain damage, phase I"
03:51:59 <dpeg> Xiberia: but Elbereth is only the beginning -- there is so much more to hate!
03:52:05 <elly> ooh!
03:52:10 <elly> how about 'the poison was deadly'?
03:52:21 <Xiberia> dpeg, sounds great
03:52:27 <dpeg> Stupid instadeaths, like what elly cites.
03:52:36 <dpeg> Sokoban!
03:52:41 <greensnark> Hehe
03:52:45 <bhaak> crawl doesn't even have a back story!
03:52:52 <Xiberia> yes it does!
03:52:56 <Adeon> nethack is great! especially the mazes in gehennom! you never know what & to expect around that corner
03:52:58 <dpeg> Crawl at least has a game!
03:52:58 <Xiberia> find the orb of zot!
03:53:07 <elly> I think we are all ignoring the depth and beauty of angband's backstory and gameplay
03:53:11 <elly> I'm going to make a flowchart someday
03:53:14 <dpeg> elly: :)
03:53:31 <elly> [ Is your speed > +40? ] -- Yes --> [ Kill Morgoth ] | -- No --> [ Grind ]
03:53:36 <greensnark> ??ideas[6]
03:53:36 <Henzell> ideas[6/235]: more backstory on the orb. come on, what is my characters motivation here? i need to know in order to fully enjoy the roleplaying experience
03:53:50 <bhaak> yeah, angband's backstory is great, but it takes longer to grind angband than to read LotR :)
03:53:53 <dpeg> With Nethack, it always seems that if some guy gave it some thought and come up with a good idea, three others guys put all their energy into making the good idea superflous.
03:54:12 <sorear> Crawl and NetHack both require you to collect 3 plot coupons, grab a macguffin, and carry it to a point of winningness
03:54:14 <greensnark> bhaak: I see your mistake
03:54:15 <sorear> coincidence?
03:54:17 <sorear> I THINK NOT
03:54:25 <elly> angband only requires one kill!
03:54:30 <greensnark> bhaak: You're supposed to read LotR AND the Silmarillion when playing Angband
03:54:38 <greensnark> bhaak: LotR alone is insufficient
03:55:17 <elly> it's true
03:55:28 <elly> the monster info makes many references to things that are only in the Silmarillion
03:56:58 <bhaak> oh, that's why I only enjoyed moria
03:57:15 <sorear> nevermind the fact that Angband is actually anachronism stew
03:57:18 <greensnark> bhaak: You met an ancient multihued dragon and really hit it off?
03:57:32 * elly remembers seeing Carcharoth and being like "...?"
03:57:48 <sorear> BUT HE'S A GOOD GUY!
03:58:12 <bhaak> greensnark: no, I never was that far down AFAIK (it must be 20 years)
03:58:40 <sorear> my favorite coffee-break roguelike is Rogue
03:58:52 <elly> I should get Rogue building on this box
03:59:08 <sorear> which version?
03:59:17 <sorear> my rogue self-identifies as "rogue-clone III"
04:01:31 <elly> the one that shipped with 4.4bsd
04:01:35 <elly> I have the source for it here somewhere
04:01:37 <bhaak> my espionage has been impeded: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/bhaak/crash-bhaak-20100331-085906.txt
04:08:12 -!- ortoslon has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
04:08:51 <elly> wait
04:08:56 <elly> reading through the angband unique list
04:09:02 <elly> I do not remember Pazuzu anywhere.
04:09:24 <elly> or the Quylthulgs, for that matter
04:12:14 <elly> bhaak: it knows you are a spy :)
04:13:22 <Keskitalo> Oh crap, now I too replied in the 0.7 agenda except it's about difficulty an stuff thread without changing the topic.
04:14:02 <greensnark> Keskitalo: For this you must be punished!
04:14:14 <greensnark> You must play one game of NetHack on nao :P
04:14:37 <dpeg> Keskitalo: boo!
04:14:47 <greensnark> bhaak: You threw a dagger and the game crashed?
04:14:51 <dpeg> greensnark: May I ask you reduce the punishment to death penalty?
04:14:57 <greensnark> dpeg: No, that's too kind
04:15:00 <bhaak> greensnark: yes, a dagger of returning
04:15:55 <greensnark> I will adopt my most successful bug fixing strategy
04:16:02 <greensnark> viz filing a bug and letting rob find it :)
04:21:25 <Ashenzari> Crash throwing dagger of returning at scorpion (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1219) by greensnark
04:23:11 <myuzinn> so, currently in crawl and most roguelikes, it seems a dagger has the same effective reach as a two handed sword
04:23:25 <myuzinn> has anyone seen any implementations or had any ideas about how to conceptualise the range difference?
04:23:57 <dpeg> myuzinn: Crawl has weapons of reaching.
04:24:07 <dpeg> Apart from that, gameplay > interface > realism.
04:24:25 <myuzinn> I think the nuances of real life combat can offer interesting gameplay
04:25:33 <Xiberia> dpeg, maybe longer weapons should have a flat chance of getting the first hit in melee combat
04:27:06 <sorear> There is no "the first hit"
04:27:39 <sorear> generally the quantization of spacetime in roguelikes causes a host of problems
04:27:46 <sorear> but nobody's got a better solution
04:27:57 <Xiberia> mm
04:28:03 <Xiberia> it was just the first thing to came a mind
04:28:07 <Xiberia> to*
04:29:06 <dpeg> sorear: the quantisation also gains a lot of benefits
04:29:41 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev
04:30:08 <dpeg> Mu!!!
04:30:13 <Mu_> hello
04:31:07 <dpeg> Mu_: did you join forces with Chapayev for the Sprint maps?
04:31:19 <dpeg> I am asking b/c Chapayev mentioned 100 subvaults in his mail :)
04:31:39 <Mu_> i mentioned subvaults to him :)
04:32:52 <myuzinn> one way is attacks of opportunity ala d&d
04:32:54 <myuzinn> but I hate those
04:33:37 <dpeg> myuzinn: is it a problem that daggers and swords have the same reach? I think not.
04:34:01 <myuzinn> nope, I just like thinking of ways to flesh out roguelike gameplay
04:35:25 <myuzinn> melee combat in roguelikes is really barren compared to the real thing
04:35:42 <dpeg> roguelikes != cosims
04:36:02 <myuzinn> definitions bah
04:36:19 <myuzinn> I roll my eyes when I see big blog posts on how to properly define roguelikes
04:36:20 <due> helloooo
04:36:20 <Henzell> due: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
04:36:33 <due> dpeg, can you add mu to the autovoice list?
04:36:34 <due> !messages
04:36:34 <Henzell> (1/1) greensnark said (1h 7m 8s ago): < Gretell> Xiberia the Charm-Maker (L8 VpEn), worshipper of Okawaru, shot by Joseph (runed  sling bullet) on D:8, with 2215 points after 7952 turns and 0:30:08.
04:36:46 <due> !tell greensnark (Y)
04:36:46 <Henzell> due: OK, I'll let greensnark know.
04:37:47 <sorear> due: dpeg can't, elly can
04:38:58 <due> sorear: are you sure?
04:39:03 <due> sorear: elly said he could...
04:39:24 <dpeg> I wouldn't know how.
04:39:28 <dpeg> elly: heeeeeeelp :)
04:39:35 <dpeg> due: And hi!
04:40:20 <dpeg> myuzinn: You don't get my point. Simulating something (e.g. melee combat, battleships, mines) makes bad games, as a rule of thumb.
04:40:54 <sorear> due: dpeg can (permissions), but hasn't been properly taught
04:41:27 <myuzinn> I like observing real life function to see if they make interesting gameplay mechanics
04:41:51 <myuzinn> I acknowledge that it is not always the case
04:42:17 <bhaak> ... simulating real world history to have a decent back story for your dwarf garden ...
04:44:39 <dpeg> myuzinn: using some real-world/flavour stuff to underpin your game mechanics is generally good, of course.
04:47:12 <myuzinn> example: in real life, weapons had different situational uses, to do with the terrain, enemy equipment, etc
04:47:20 <myuzinn> in roguelikes, wepaons are generally the same except for the label
04:47:29 <sorear> and the dice
04:47:40 <myuzinn> bigger weapon = more dices!!!
04:47:50 <sorear> even Rogue had 4d5 two-handed swords and 1d4 daggers!
04:48:07 <dpeg> myuzinn: we try to differentiate our weapons better.
04:48:11 <myuzinn> so we can investigate whether simulating armour penetration and stuff actually makes for a fun differentiation
04:48:16 <myuzinn> or whether it just results in tedium or whatever
04:48:38 <dpeg> myuzinn: but I don't believe that we want players to carry axes for Foo, swords for Bar etc.
04:49:15 <myuzinn> like swords are almost useless versus plate armour - this could mean swords get effectively useless end game in crawl, which would suck
04:50:58 <myuzinn> and yeh thats a good point, if the differentiation just results in players constantly switching weapons then that'd be bad
04:51:23 <myuzinn> well I mean I think some people would like it but probably not me :p
04:53:01 <myuzinn> hmm
04:53:24 <myuzinn> I think I could formulate the difference in weapon length as a situational weapon strike speed discount
04:53:49 <myuzinn> when an enemy closes in
04:54:02 <due> What is up with all the faff on c-r-d?
04:54:29 <dpeg> due: probably my fault
04:54:47 <dpeg> I replied three times to Abraham
04:54:58 <due> dpeg: No...
04:55:03 <due> Just the attitude.
04:55:07 <due> Rather than the actual emails.
04:56:35 <dpeg> I tried to add civility and sanity, but it ain't easy.
04:56:48 <sorear> the best thing about crawl is that we don't actually care what the players think
04:56:52 <sorear> even when they're us
05:05:30 <due> dpeg: 9 scrolls of fear :(
05:05:33 <due> There's *three* in the game.
05:05:46 <sorear> Pan -> Trove
05:05:51 <sorear> watch out for smoke demons
05:06:38 <due> Duane!
05:07:59 -!- hotsun has joined ##crawl-dev
05:11:53 -!- hotsun has quit [Client Quit]
05:18:20 -!- Madtrixr has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
05:22:10 <dpeg> due: have you used some before?
05:23:08 <dpeg> due: I know you're somewhat stressed out, but would you be willing to polish and push the troves a bit further? I have to say I like them a lot :)
05:23:22 <due> dpeg: Sure, I just don't have much time at the minute :(
05:23:32 <dpeg> due: it's not crucial.
05:26:14 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev
05:41:16 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
05:47:45 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev
05:47:45 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
05:48:29 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev
05:48:29 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: DCSS development channel! | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Ashenzari source: http://github.com/doy/crawlbot
05:59:07 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev
05:59:08 <Textmode> morning all
05:59:09 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
05:59:48 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev
05:59:48 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: DCSS development channel! | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Ashenzari source: http://github.com/doy/crawlbot
06:30:07 -!- by has joined ##crawl-dev
06:30:22 <by> hi
06:30:22 <Henzell> by: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
06:30:35 <dpeg> by: Hi!
06:31:52 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev
06:32:12 <by> !messages
06:32:14 <Henzell> (1/1) Cryp71c said (2h 54m 13s ago): Demonspawn stuff is done, everything should be up to date on my github: git://github.com/burnhamrobertp/DCSS.git branch name is demonspawn
06:38:44 <bhaak> hmm, my notes say "                 http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/bhaak/morgue-bhaak-20100331-112047.txt"
06:38:56 <bhaak> argh, my notes say "You fall through a shaft!"
06:39:07 <bhaak> although I jumped deliberately thorugh it
06:39:39 <dpeg> bhaak: minor bug
06:41:38 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev
06:41:39 <bhaak> ok, gonna report
06:41:50 <dpeg> thank you
06:43:28 <greensnark> Your golden eye blinks at the titanic slime creature.
06:43:31 <greensnark> _The titanic slime creature appears confused.
06:43:34 <greensnark> That's practically poetry
06:43:36 <dpeg> wonderful
06:44:40 <greensnark> I wouldn't mind suppressing the merge/split messages for friendly slimes
06:44:44 <greensnark> It gets rather spammy otherwise
06:44:50 <greensnark> Especially the screen flash + delay
06:45:36 <dpeg> greensnark: nobody thought of that ... :)
06:47:12 <Ashenzari> Jumping deliberately through a shaft doesn't show in Notes (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1220) by bhaak
06:47:41 <bhaak> hmm, summary is liiiitttle bit misleading
06:54:50 <greensnark> Hey Napkin is playing UnNH
06:54:58 <greensnark> Do we have a suitable punishment for that
06:55:01 <Napkin> lol
06:55:35 <dpeg> greensnark: would you reply to Johanna on rgrm, re Hearse?
06:55:41 <bhaak> he was so scared, he immediately quit :)
06:56:02 <Napkin> forget how to modify options on the fly ;)
06:56:42 <bhaak> 'O'ptions
06:57:39 <greensnark> 'O'ptions misleads you into thinking it's useful :P
06:57:49 <greensnark> The NH in-game options I mean
06:58:01 <greensnark> The options either don't get saved or are saved per-game
06:58:05 <greensnark> Which is pretty useless :P
06:58:07 <Keskitalo> greensnark: Want to add that in poems? :)
06:58:23 <greensnark> It is handy to see what an option does, though
06:58:30 <greensnark> Keskitalo: Which? :)
06:58:36 <greensnark> dpeg: Yes
06:58:48 <greensnark> I haven't actually done any of the hearse research I wanted to do though
06:58:54 <Keskitalo> greensnark: The one that's practically poetry!
06:59:37 <greensnark> Keskitalo: Almost but not quite :P
06:59:56 <st_> are colourless scales a newly added DS mut? they don't seem to show up on the % screen
06:59:58 <Napkin> bhaak - how about making all inventory items clickable and link to the wiki? :>
07:01:57 <Napkin> i mean.. a cloak of displacement - I _have_ to read the wiki to know what it does.. right?
07:02:03 <dpeg> st_: not yet in
07:02:04 <Napkin> there is no in-game description - is there?
07:02:06 <dpeg> by: you around?
07:02:48 <bhaak> Napkin: I want to make them give more details in-game, but having links to the wiki won't work as the wiki is still almost completely nethack-specific (even sporkhack isn't mentioned everywhere)
07:03:23 <bhaak> Napkin: no, you should play and get hit and then you see what it does. If you don't move, you don't need to know what it does :-D
07:04:14 <Napkin> can't move.. too many wiki pages block the view :-P
07:04:39 <dpeg> pffff
07:04:58 <dpeg> Napkin: despite indicators to the contrary, Nethack is still a game :)
07:06:09 <by> dpeg: yes
07:06:25 <dpeg> by: does cryptic's patch look okay?
07:06:45 <by> I've been working on it for the past 30 minutes
07:06:50 <dpeg> oh, many thanks
07:06:59 <dpeg> by: does "30 minutes" mean "no!"?
07:07:06 <by> no
07:07:47 <Keskitalo> http://www.metafilter.com/90503/The-Return-of-Sigmund#3016860
07:08:26 <Napkin> browsing referers, Eino? :D
07:10:59 <bhaak> I'm surprised that jpeg wasn't able to get in contact with alexis. He is quite eager to support anything that works with hearse without him having to do any work (crawl falls also into this category with its nethack legacy save game header)
07:11:46 <bhaak> Napkin: you know how to run in nethack?
07:12:15 <Napkin> once in a while I do, yeah
07:12:43 <Keskitalo> Napkin: Yeah, and also google blog search :)
07:13:00 <Napkin> :)
07:13:24 <greensnark> bhaak: Yes, back when I contacted him he'd respond within minutes :)
07:13:36 <Keskitalo> Napkin: Ah, not referers, got confused for a moment and thought you meant the blog pingbacks.
07:14:23 <greensnark> dpeg: paxed suspects that NH 3.5 *may* be in beta testing :)
07:14:27 <Napkin> ah :) I landed on that website too after checking referers yesterday ;)
07:16:33 <dpeg> greensnark: oh, the earth is shaking :)
07:16:37 <dpeg> What are the signals?
07:17:09 <Napkin> hmm.. how to open a locked door again? :-$
07:17:13 <Napkin> without kicking
07:17:16 <greensnark> dpeg: No real signals, paxed reading entrails :)
07:17:26 <dpeg> Napkin: untrap (10 times), apply lock, open
07:17:40 <Napkin> omg?
07:17:42 <dpeg> *apply key
07:17:58 <greensnark> Napkin: dpeg is lying, you don't have to untrap doors :P
07:17:59 <dpeg> If it takes fewer than 24 keypresses, you did something wrong.
07:18:08 <dpeg> greensnark: doors can kill you in NH!
07:18:15 <greensnark> At most they can stun you :P
07:18:18 <greensnark> So kick away :P
07:18:28 <bhaak> ah, that's where the trauma comes from :)
07:18:29 <greensnark> Now, a chest is a whole differetn story
07:19:13 <dpeg> But kicking doors removes valuable tactical options!
07:19:13 <bhaak> Napkin: kicking doors is relatively safe, as long as you are sure it's not a shop's door and if you don't mind waking up sleeping monsters
07:19:21 <greensnark> That you have to untrap 10 times and then loot, and then it says "haha, it's locked" and you have to go grubbing around for a key and forget where the chest was before you find the key, or try to force it, or kick the chest and break everything in it :P
07:19:48 <Napkin> how can i be sure it's not a shop?
07:19:53 <dpeg> Just say NO to container.
07:20:28 <bhaak> shops are usually on the edges and if they are locked, a message is in front of the door
07:20:49 <dpeg> bhaak: but the message can be wiped out already
07:20:57 <Napkin> a message? :-O
07:20:59 <ais523> dpeg: only in a bones file
07:21:00 <bhaak> there are rumors of deaths by a shopkeeper where that message has been wiped out
07:21:04 <dpeg> and sometimes, rarely, shops are not on the boundary
07:21:08 <Napkin> do i need to #chat with the door first? :D
07:21:16 <dpeg> Napkin: just read the wiki
07:21:16 <ais523> if there's no message in front of the door, it's because someone went and locked themself in a shop then died
07:21:24 <bhaak> Napkin: it doesn't hurt :)
07:21:49 <bhaak> and even then he must have walked across it several times to completely wipe it
07:22:33 <dpeg> Napkin: you always know there's a shop from the level sounds.
07:22:53 <bhaak> but level sounds are random
07:23:17 <bhaak> do we wanna scare or support him?
07:23:34 <greensnark> !coffee Napkin
07:23:34 * Henzell hands Napkin a cup of café au lait, brewed by Ijyb.
07:23:50 <bhaak> "Harder than Nethack?? I played Nethack on and off for 3 years and even took 2 weeks off from life where I literally did nothing other than eat, sleep and play Nethack and I never beat it!" :)
07:23:53 <dpeg> bhaak: scare, of course
07:24:07 <dpeg> bhaak: from where?
07:24:22 <bhaak> dpeg: from the metafilter link
07:25:32 <greensnark> Someone should have told them about spoilers
07:27:28 <CIA-43> 03by * r20e65c29c685 10/crawl-ref/source/player.cc: Make player_adjusted_evasion_penalty static.
07:27:29 <CIA-43> 03burnhamrobertp * re0907dbb4ebe 10/crawl-ref/source/ (18 files): Demonspawn Additions
07:27:31 <CIA-43> 03by * r58f20098870f 10/crawl-ref/source/mutation.cc: Make check_demonic_guardian() safe against monster generation failure.
07:27:32 <CIA-43> 03by * rcb1671a6e565 10/crawl-ref/source/tags.cc: Save and restore you.{active,disable}_demonic_guardian.
07:27:34 <CIA-43> 03by * re9e958e7afd7 10/crawl-ref/source/tags.h: Bump major version for demonspawn changes.
07:27:43 <CIA-43> 03by * r4ba6aee0b195 10/crawl-ref/source/main.cc: Move antenna effect after monster movement.
07:27:43 <CIA-43> 03by * r56d75708f816 10/crawl-ref/source/wiz-you.cc: Give DUR_DEMONIC_GUARDIAN a name (fixes wiz-you.cc compile check).
07:27:58 <bhaak> wow, one guy in rgrm suggests the possibility of translating crawl by using a hex editor to change the strings. M)
07:28:25 <dpeg> by: awesome!
07:28:44 <by> I'm not sure how deactivating the demonic guardian is supposed to work
07:28:57 <by> currently, it just means you won't get a new one, but the old one stays around
07:29:09 <ais523> bhaak: that's unlikely to be any better than just changing all the string literals in the source, or maybe the object file
07:29:56 <ais523> anyway, you're an expert on translating roguelikes; would translating Crawl be easier or harder than translating NetHack?
07:30:00 <bhaak> ais523: is this a critic about my approach? :)
07:30:15 <by> Napkin: upgrade would be nice to get the new demonspawn out there
07:30:21 <ais523> bhaak: no, it's me talking about how the rgrn suggestion is ridiculous
07:30:31 <ais523> the nethack-de approach at least seems saner than NetHack itself
07:31:23 <bhaak> which doesn't say much :-D
07:31:40 <bhaak> crawl already has a lot of the text in the dat directory
07:32:01 <Napkin> sure, 1s, rob
07:32:35 <bhaak> for example: dat/database/monspell.txt: @The_monster@ breathes @beam@ @at@ @target@.
07:32:56 <Napkin> CIA posting in here in wrong order is confusing
07:33:14 <bhaak> you could take that and mangle it probably with not a lot of effort into different languages
07:33:27 <Napkin> bhaak - can i remove the "y/n/q" questions in unnethack?
07:33:50 <bhaak> Napkin: which ones?
07:34:08 <Napkin> #loot -> there is a chest here. do you want to loot it?
07:34:19 <Napkin> i mean.. that's why i typed "#loot"
07:34:38 <Napkin> #untrap -> there is a chest here. do you want to untrap it?
07:35:03 <ais523> Napkin: imagine if there's a chest and bag on the same square; NetHack handles that by asking for each individually
07:35:17 <ais523> e -> there is a cockatrice corpse here. do you want to eat it?
07:35:19 <Napkin> just so many y/n/q - reminds me of the new vista i had to install on my mom's computer.. every click -> are you sure?
07:35:38 <ais523> interface consistency is probably better than automatically assuming that the player meant the only thing possible
07:35:51 <ais523> in Crawl, it's too easy to mismove due to it not prompting sometimes and prompting sometimes
07:35:58 <purge> jeez that metafilter forum has wall of text symdrome!
07:35:59 <ais523> especially as y and n are directions
07:36:02 <Napkin> ais523, i completely disagree. this constant y/n/q is just annoying.
07:36:04 <greensnark> I think conditional prompts are fine as long as the prompt is the exceptional case
07:36:29 <greensnark> if the prompt is the common case and no-prompt is rare, that is an abomination
07:36:33 <Napkin> i already types "#lo" - so yes, i do want to loot
07:36:34 <ais523> Napkin: what do you think of the Slash'EM method? it adds an extra entry , to the list of choices, to eat from the floor
07:36:46 <ais523> Napkin: it's not "do you want to loot", but "what do you want to loot"
07:36:52 <ais523> like pressing c in Crawl on a pile of corpses
07:37:04 <ais523> or , on a pile of items
07:37:14 <greensnark> But c on a single corpse just shuts up and does its job :)
07:37:28 <dpeg> ais523: and that question is moot with exactly one box on the ground.
07:37:32 <greensnark> The multiple corpse case is much rarer than the single corpse case, so having a prompt there is fine
07:37:33 <ais523> dpeg: yes
07:37:33 <Napkin> oh, right - there is an additional prompt in between - "#lo" - where? - sure?
07:37:40 <dpeg> greensnark: although there's been opposition to that, too :P
07:37:45 <greensnark> dpeg: Yes, I know :P
07:37:50 <greensnark> dpeg: I was wrong there :P
07:37:54 <bhaak> ais523: but the real problem are the strings in the source files. there it's more or less the same problem as in nethack, but as crawl devteam is really working and you can workaround a lot, I think it might be possible to translate crawl using gettext + a few special cases where you need to write some new functions.
07:38:03 <greensnark> dpeg: but current 'z' behaviour is wrong :P
07:38:06 <dpeg> greensnark: no sweat, I screwed up so much in the past.
07:38:13 <dpeg> And will screw up much more in the future.
07:38:20 <ais523> bhaak: yep, especially with things like %1$ available
07:38:21 <greensnark> Current 'z' has prompt as the common case and no-prompt as the edge case
07:38:28 <greensnark> Which means the edge case will keep catching out the player
07:38:30 <dpeg> greensnark: I mainly wanted to reserve both z and Z for casting.
07:38:35 <dpeg> This will prove useful, trust me.
07:38:38 <greensnark> And they will feed keystrokes into the game that were meant for the prompt
07:38:42 <Napkin> Master branch on CDO updated to: 0.7.0-a0-929-g4ba6aee (19.0)
07:38:46 <by> Napkin: thanks!
07:38:50 <ais523> dpeg: the issue is that if you try to cast a spell when out of MP, you don't go to the targeting prompt, whereas you'd expect to
07:38:51 <Napkin> :)
07:38:54 <bhaak> Napkin: that's not possible, it just iterates through all lootable/untrapable things on the floor without checking if there is only one
07:39:01 <dpeg> ais523: I understand,
07:39:08 <dpeg> Napkin: rockage!
07:39:10 <Napkin> puh.. ok
07:39:24 <ais523> keystroke consistency is something that catches out bots a lot, btw; although it catches me out enough as a human to complain for that reason
07:39:25 <by> now, how to message cryptic given he's so fond of switching nicks?
07:39:27 <dpeg> Will play some DSFi later toray.
07:39:37 <ais523> I've died like that in NetHack, and wasted turns like that in Crawl
07:39:39 <greensnark> !seen Cryp71c
07:39:39 <Henzell> I last saw Cryp71c at Wed Mar 31 08:38:16 2010 UTC (4h 1m 23s ago) quitting with message Read error: Connection reset by peer.
07:39:40 <dpeg> by: email?
07:39:55 <greensnark> I think he's been using Cryp71c recently
07:40:11 <greensnark> dpeg: What's the codename for 0.7? :P
07:40:14 <dpeg> greensnark: forcing a more after pressing z w/o targets?
07:40:21 <dpeg> greensnark: what about some Hindi one?
07:40:25 <dpeg> Hindu
07:40:26 <dpeg> Hinda
07:40:40 <greensnark> Most users won't have suitable fonts
07:40:48 <bhaak> Napkin: but you're right, if there is only one thing and the player already knows that, it shouldn't ask. I already changed #chat to not ask for a direction if there is only one suitable chat partner there :)
07:40:48 <dpeg> doesn't matter
07:40:57 <dpeg> bhaak: that's a good one
07:41:00 <greensnark> Latin alphabets are best for wide readership
07:41:08 <ais523> bhaak: ouch, is there an option to change that back?
07:41:11 <dpeg> greensnark: shouldn't be German next time
07:41:12 <Napkin> nice, bhaak :)
07:41:18 <by> !tell Cryp71c Patch is in, with some changes. Are you intended to be able to wear helmets with antennae? Are you supposed to deactivate then kill your guardian to get rid of it?
07:41:19 <Henzell> by: OK, I'll let Cryp71c know.
07:41:47 <greensnark> dpeg: How about czech
07:42:01 <dpeg> Perhaps we can get Adam or Erik to donate some funky Slavic word.
07:42:02 <by> stone soup 0.7, codename 0.6?
07:42:05 <greensnark> Or any cool quote from langauge != German
07:42:44 <purge> So new demonspawn is on CDO?
07:42:45 <bhaak> ais523: not yet, but if I add more of that behaviour I might add one
07:42:50 <by> purge: yes
07:43:35 <dpeg> options are bad
07:43:38 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
07:43:42 <Zaba> crawl's got lots
07:43:45 <ais523> dpeg: agreed, as long as you have sane defaults
07:43:47 <dpeg> especially options to go back to bad interface
07:43:55 <dpeg> Zaba: I know :(
07:44:03 <greensnark> Don't take away my default_target=false :P
07:44:04 <ais523> dpeg: options to go back to pre-being-ruined interface?
07:44:13 <ais523> the issue is that people see things different ways
07:44:16 <greensnark> And my clear_messages=yes
07:44:34 -!- ais523 was kicked from ##crawl-dev by dpeg [ruination]
07:44:49 <greensnark> ais523 the ruinous
07:45:01 <dpeg> next time I'll use urination
07:45:03 <syllogism> well delay_message_clear IS the new default now so :P
07:45:13 <Zaba> yeah, some people are so used to broken interfaces that they can't see them in a true light.  See, for instance, a lot of windows users out there...
07:45:17 <bhaak> dpeg: I know but if it's trivial I don't mind and nh has the option to not show certain options in the O menu
07:45:19 <greensnark> syllogism: There's an option to remove it :P
07:45:20 <syllogism> world of ruin
07:45:24 <bhaak> ruination, is that even a word?
07:45:38 <greensnark> My problem with not clearing messages is that I keep seeing old messages and thinking "WHAT, he hit me AGAIN?!"
07:45:43 <syllogism> yes
07:45:49 <greensnark> The little underscores really don't stop me from skimming the message
07:45:54 <syllogism> and I pay attention so I don't need to see the message constantly :P
07:45:56 <dpeg> There are tons of options which make sense. But coders have this habit to provide an option everytime the interface gets improved. That habit is natural, but not good :)
07:46:04 <bhaak> and what can you do if people like to play like bots :)
07:46:20 <by> dpeg: don't blame it on the coders
07:46:34 <dpeg> by: But who else to blame?
07:46:39 <by> it's because management doesn't make a clear decision
07:46:44 <greensnark> Hehe
07:46:48 <bhaak> lol
07:46:48 <syllogism> damn managers
07:46:49 * dpeg is guilty.
07:47:08 <dpeg> We should have a "kill the option!" month.
07:47:12 <Napkin> also, using ; to look around - would be cool if you didn't have to press . each time - but rather display immediately when the cursor is on top of an item/monster, bhaak
07:47:34 <by> I did remove quite a few options
07:47:55 <dpeg> by: that was not meant as an insult to anybody, in particular not to you.
07:48:05 <by> I'm not insulted easily :)
07:48:21 <bhaak> Napkin: I know and I would have changed it already if it wouldn't have meant to completely redo the code for :, ; and / :\
07:48:23 <syllogism> the new startup interface is nice
07:48:24 <Zaba> does anyone use use_old_selection_order = true?
07:48:27 <dpeg> It's also true that every interface change will have some player coming from his cave: "Ugh, cannot play the game anymore!" And then someone hands out an option.
07:48:33 <by> it may be true that some developers like adding options
07:48:36 <greensnark> Zaba: What does that option do? :P
07:48:38 <dpeg> syllogism: yes
07:48:47 <by> if greensnark doesn't use it, it can go
07:48:49 <Zaba> greensnark, no idea, and I suspect I don't want to find out
07:48:51 <dpeg> hehe
07:49:07 <Zaba> actually, my config being old, I'm not sure it still exists ;p
07:49:17 <dpeg> At least bhaak is interested in improving the interface. Derek wasn't, claiming that "that's the devteam's job" ):
07:49:18 <greensnark> Oh wow, use_old_selection_order is pretty obscure :)
07:49:32 <by> we should definitely remove that now the screens are being redone
07:49:51 <Zaba> indeed.
07:50:12 <dpeg> I guess a wiki page "obsolete options" would be good
07:50:28 <greensnark> I see Zaba collects weird options in his museum and polishes them now and again
07:50:38 <dpeg> People could react... if there's no comment for some listed option after six months, off it goes.
07:50:39 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev
07:50:41 <greensnark> Notice how quickly he dropped use_old_selection_order into the discussion
07:50:47 <Napkin> may i again mention, how sucky gnome desktop environment has become after removing all the options?
07:50:48 <bhaak> greensnark: why do you like default_target=false ?
07:51:02 <Napkin> please don't do that to stone soup as well...
07:51:02 <greensnark> bhaak: Because I like target_unshifted_dirs=yes :P
07:51:10 <Zaba> greensnark, uh, no, it was just on the top of the default config; in truth, I resort to quietly using dtach.
07:51:18 <greensnark> Oh man, Gnome option policy is moronic
07:51:26 <dpeg> greensnark: what is it?
07:51:39 <syllogism> demonic guardian mutation seems too good
07:52:01 <dpeg> Napkin: it's a fine line... yes, we want options. But part of our responsibility as designers is to provide good defaults instead of a myriad of options.
07:52:08 <greensnark> dpeg: They removed a lot of options without bothering to check whether the option is useful
07:52:16 <dpeg> greensnark: I hope we'll do better.
07:52:25 <dpeg> "Every even numbered option has to go!"
07:52:33 <Napkin> lol
07:52:33 <Zaba> sounds like a plan
07:52:45 <Zaba> but.. does one start counting them from zero, or from one?
07:52:47 <greensnark> gnome-terminal used to allow a solid cursor setting, then they decided that they'd just use the system-wide setting for cursor
07:53:00 <greensnark> Which means you cannot have a solid terminal cursor and a blinking cursor for other programs
07:53:14 <dpeg> actually, I am on gnome right now and I wondered about how few options there are
07:53:21 <dpeg> Did anybody give feedback about it?
07:53:27 <greensnark> dpeg: Lots of people :P
07:53:34 <dpeg> greensnark: with zero effect?
07:53:39 <Napkin> oh my.. arrows from the same trap don't stack?
07:53:42 <greensnark> Although Linux users usually give feedback in a very tactful way
07:53:49 <greensnark> "You morons removed my option!11!"
07:54:15 <greensnark> I don't know what happened to that particular case, I don't use Gnome terminal anyway :)
07:54:16 <Napkin> lol
07:54:21 * Napkin takes notes *
07:54:56 <MarvinPA> does anyone know if the update to CDO that fixed the abyss crashes also breaks save compatibility?
07:55:00 <bhaak> greensnark: I have no problem with that. The only gnome program I use is gnome terminal anyways :)
07:55:12 <MarvinPA> i just got a message saying my save couldn't be transferred :(
07:55:23 <greensnark> bhaak: I used to use Firefox :P
07:55:23 <Napkin> latest update was save version 19 - previous was 18, i believe, MarvinPA
07:55:38 <MarvinPA> bah, looks like my 15-rune game is gone then :(
07:55:40 <by> MarvinPA: not sure if there was an intermediate update
07:55:50 <greensnark> MarvinPA: Why is it gone, you don't have to upgrade
07:56:00 <Napkin> yeah - aren't you happy, you need to install gnome-settings to change the way your cursor looks in gnome-terminal, bhaak? :D
07:56:06 <greensnark> Oh, your abyss crashes are too bad to play?
07:56:13 <MarvinPA> well they're fairly random
07:56:17 <MarvinPA> i did manage to get the rune
07:56:22 <MarvinPA> but then it crashed before finding an exit
07:56:31 <greensnark> MarvinPA: Next time you get the rune, save :P
07:56:41 <greensnark> You'll be rewound to last save on crash :P
07:56:45 <MarvinPA> aha :D
07:56:49 <bhaak> Napkin: I put ubuntu on that laptop so it was already installed :)
07:56:52 <MarvinPA> i can probably do it with a bit of luck then :P
07:57:11 <greensnark> MarvinPA: yeah, and last time I had to farm the Abyss for the rune this happened to me
07:57:14 <by> MarvinPA: to fix the LOS, save&reload will work
07:57:14 <greensnark> !lg . GhWn Abyss
07:57:15 <Henzell> 1. greensnark the Middleweight Champion (L27 GhWn), worshipper of Okawaru, blasted by a red draconian annihilator (crystal spear) in the Abyss on 2008-08-08, with 704512 points after 150958 turns and 20:31:37.
07:57:17 <Napkin> woah - ubuntu.. so many radicals here today!
07:57:29 <bhaak> greensnark: in firefox I don't notice the missing blinking and on my work machine firefox is built on gentoo with -gnome :)
07:57:34 <MarvinPA> ah it will?
07:57:35 <by> but the crash bug may still occur
07:57:43 <MarvinPA> ahh i see
07:57:55 <by> best just save&reload regularly
07:57:59 <MarvinPA> well i'll run around a bit and see what happens, thanks for fixing it either way
07:58:16 <Napkin> heh, examining an "+" -> a spellbook or a closed door (spellbook)
07:58:20 <MarvinPA> cool, will do
07:59:22 <CIA-43> 03by * r306e28ce8ae9 10/crawl-ref/ (6 files in 3 dirs): Get rid of option old_selection_order.
07:59:28 <dpeg> Applause!
07:59:36 <Napkin> omg noooo!
07:59:37 <Napkin> :>
07:59:44 <dpeg> We're idly talking, while by is the man of action.
07:59:48 <by> net -61 lines of code
07:59:58 <Napkin> nice
08:03:35 <by> ??crystal plate
08:03:35 <Henzell> crystal plate mail[1/2]: 14AC, -8EV, 120 aum.  The most massive heavy armour. Resists corrosion. It can be generated on D:1 very rarely. Of course, you will splat every time this happens.
08:04:03 <by> ??ring mail
08:04:03 <Henzell> ring mail[1/1]: +4 ac -2 ev.  Weakest heavy armour.
08:06:48 <by> ??scale mail
08:06:49 <Henzell> scale mail[1/1]: +5 ac -3 ev.
08:07:06 <Napkin> lol.. nethack is just.. omg
08:08:52 <by> as a simple fix for the uselessness of heavy armour in the early game, how about taking armour skill out of the GDR percentage calculation?
08:08:53 <bhaak> lol, searching can be dangerous in nethack :)
08:09:15 <by> armour skill seems to be important enough in giving AC and overcoming the penalties
08:09:31 <jarpiain> ?? gdr[2]
08:09:31 <Henzell> gdr[2/2]: Guaranteed melee damage reduction in 0.6 is (body armour base AC) * (13 + armour skill)/17 %
08:10:18 <purge> Napkin: would it be a pain to update the trunk tiles binaries with the demonspawn changes?
08:10:18 <by> assuming armour skill 27 would take ring mail from 4% to 9%, scale mail from 5% to 11% (at armour skill 4)
08:10:35 <Napkin> of course not, 1s, purge
08:11:38 <dpeg> by: those %'s are GDR effects?
08:11:47 <dpeg> ah, I see
08:12:15 <jarpiain> 32% for crystal plate
08:12:49 <by> I think at the high end, the AC nerf is good; it's just that the start is quite rough
08:12:49 <Napkin> i'm still getting the SQLITE_HAS_CODEC warnings during compile
08:12:50 -!- Amonchakad has joined ##crawl-dev
08:12:57 -!- Spads has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
08:12:58 <by> someone should kick neunon
08:12:58 <dpeg> So instead of (13+Armour)/17 we could use 3/2, for example? (corresponds to Armour 9)?
08:13:20 <by> I would say 40/17 (correspond to armour 27)
08:13:22 -!- Spads has joined ##crawl-dev
08:13:26 <bhaak> Napkin: sell the books
08:13:34 <dpeg> by: then I'd go with 2=34/17.
08:13:43 <by> why?
08:13:54 <by> do you think 32% for crystal plate is too much?
08:13:58 <dpeg> 2*baseAC is a pretty simple formula :)
08:14:01 <Napkin> bhaak :)
08:14:13 <by> ??plate mail
08:14:14 <Henzell> plate mail[1/1]: +10 ac -6 ev. Weighs 65.0 aum.
08:14:30 <dpeg> The complicated numbers are necessary to incorporate a parameter, without parameter we can round.
08:14:36 <Napkin> omg!
08:14:38 <Napkin> buuuug!
08:14:48 <dpeg> heeeeck
08:14:51 <bhaak> ?
08:15:14 <bhaak> Napkin: press p
08:15:23 <Napkin> oh.. did i really chat with a mold? and it told me i need to pay 25 for it?
08:15:39 <Napkin> and i thought the shop keeper said that :D
08:15:47 <dpeg> You chat with the shopkeeper, I hope.
08:15:48 <bhaak> well, it's the shopkeeper that says how much it costs :)
08:16:05 <dpeg> Username: Denzi
08:16:05 <dpeg> E-mail: denzi.diary@gmail.com
08:16:12 <dpeg> Do you know her/him?
08:16:32 <dpeg> by: the idea of having GDR be constant is good.
08:16:54 <dpeg> I learned from syllogism that GDR matters little anyway. Making it matter more early one is probably good.
08:16:57 <jarpiain> Denzi ss in CREDITS
08:17:01 <jarpiain> *is in
08:17:16 <Napkin> so.. that was a very mean visit to that shop.. mimic there didn't let me move off? had to use wand of striking to kill it.. which killed items too.. and so i had to sell everything to at least get out?
08:17:19 <dpeg> jarpiain: yes. Denzi made a whole slew of tiles.
08:17:28 <bhaak> http://d.hatena.ne.jp/Denzi/ ?
08:17:36 <dpeg> bhaak: yes
08:17:37 <bhaak> Napkin: yes
08:18:00 <Napkin> well.. great.. even looking at items in a shop is dangerous?
08:18:27 <Napkin> anyways, enough complaining.. bye!
08:18:36 <dpeg> bye!
08:18:43 <bhaak> Napkin: can be. but you also searched beside a ] which is mimic who doesn;t really mimic :)
08:18:49 <bhaak> bye
08:19:14 <syllogism> what will gdr be for something like a plate
08:19:29 <by> it's curently 23% at armour skill 27
08:19:50 <Napkin> rofl, bhaak
08:19:56 <jarpiain> 2.5 factor for a nice round 25% in plate?
08:19:59 <dpeg> with the simple base*2% it'd be 20% throughout
08:20:00 <Napkin> yeah.. missed the obvious, I guess :D
08:20:46 <by> jarpiain: sounds good; ring mail gets 10 that way
08:20:49 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev
08:21:11 <purge> Napkin: the regular trunk updated but not tiles?
08:21:21 <bhaak> Napkin: you also got large mimic which is a bit unusual for that dlvl
08:21:24 <dpeg> by: I am also fine with 2.5 although I consider that to be very generous :)
08:22:32 <syllogism> this might almost make mottled dragon armour worth wearing, though probably not :P
08:23:05 <dpeg> syllogism: do you see a problem with constant GDR (depending only on baseAC)?
08:23:57 <syllogism> don't think so
08:24:41 <dpeg> by: I'll add it to the wiki; if nothing happens, this can go in, okay?
08:25:06 <by> dpeg: 2* is probably fine; hardly anyone gets more than 21 armour skill anyway
08:25:14 <dpeg> yes
08:26:14 <syllogism> that was pre-nerf though
08:27:21 <syllogism> that is, saying no one never gets more than 21 doesn't really mean anything since there hasn't been much testing with the current gdr
08:27:51 <syllogism> you used to hit the gdr cap very early
08:28:54 <by> it cuts GDR from 23% to 20% in plate mail with armour 27 -- I don't think that's going to be noticable
08:28:56 <syllogism> does gdr use monster's max base damage or weapon+base
08:29:14 <by> weapon+base I think
08:30:13 <Napkin> refresh, purge
08:30:26 <purge> got it ,thanks :D
08:30:27 <jarpiain> ?? monster damage
08:30:28 <Henzell> monster damage[1/3]: 1d(monster damage rating) + [random2(weapon base damage) + random2(weapon damage ench) - 1d3]. Multiply by 3/2 for might and 5/2 for stab.
08:30:37 <syllogism> yes it won't be noticable, but that's generally been the problem with gdr
08:30:53 <jarpiain> ?? monster damage[2]
08:30:53 <Henzell> monster damage[2/3]: Damage reduction is max(random2(AC), gdr_percent*[monster damage + weapon base damage]).  For example, a player with 50% gdr always gets at least 15 damage reduction against an anaconda and 22 against a stone giant.
08:35:28 <dpeg> syllogism: you think that 20% GDR will go unnoticed?
08:35:43 <by> what kind of dodging rates do you get against late game melee monsters (with good damage and average accuracy)?
08:35:57 <purge> is there a way to find out what mutations do in game?
08:36:08 <syllogism> 10% maybe
08:36:12 <bhaak> Napkin: Elbereth might have helped :(
08:36:44 <syllogism> err, do you mean player dodging rates
08:36:48 <by> yes
08:36:51 <Napkin> happens, bhaak ;)
08:36:55 <syllogism> the accuracy threw me off
08:37:36 <by> would be nice to have some idea of the damage reduction that an EV fighter with low AC currently gets against say a draconian or an orb guardian
08:37:47 <Ashenzari> Cooperation of a tile art (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1221) by Denzi
08:38:45 <syllogism> orb guardians seem to have have very high accuracy, what is it tied to?
08:38:57 <purge> uh i think i crashed? I thought i closed the program by mistake, and when i reloaded my save my mutations were different as well as some of my inventory :|
08:39:09 <syllogism> @?? orb guardian
08:39:09 <Gretell> Orb Guardian (06X) | Speed: 14 | HD: 15 | Health: 45-120 | AC/EV: 13/13 | Damage: 45 | Flags: see invisible | Res: 06magic(120) | XP: 3893.
08:40:07 <jarpiain> !source mons_to_hit
08:40:12 <Henzell> Lines pasted to http://paste.scsys.co.uk/41620
08:40:26 <purge> and just crashed when i started a new game as a lugonite in the abyss walking around :O
08:40:30 <Napkin> wasn't there a server to play angband online?
08:40:42 <by> my guess is that similar average damage reduction for armour vs dodging base fighters would make armour attractive enough
08:40:52 <by> s/base/based/
08:41:37 <syllogism> you only get gdr in melee unfortunately
08:41:57 <syllogism> not that it even affects the average much
08:42:34 <syllogism> fsim isn't interruptible anymore?
08:44:07 <syllogism> skeletal warrior with a hand axe has 30% accuracy against 37ev player according to fsim
08:44:42 <ortoslon> i just stabbed some confused monsters while being confused myself
08:45:10 -!- eith_ has joined ##crawl-dev
08:45:13 <syllogism> debug mode reports it as 2.5%, which is obviously wrong
08:45:23 <ortoslon> i think i shouldn't be able to (stabs require some finesse after all)
08:45:40 <dpeg> ortoslon: I agree. Would you file a report on Mantis?
08:45:53 <ortoslon> yes
08:48:18 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
08:48:42 -!- eith_ is now known as eith
08:49:45 <bhaak> Napkin: http://cage.bearhome.net:7777 but you need a browser :)
08:50:30 <Napkin> lol, anyterm?
08:50:43 <Napkin> that's worse than anything ;)
08:50:49 <Napkin> but thanks :)
08:51:10 -!- hotsun has joined ##crawl-dev
08:51:22 <Napkin> of cource i got connection interrupted after 5 keys and thus my ip is blocked for another session :)
08:51:26 <Napkin> <3
08:52:03 <myuzinn> so I had an idea regarding hitpoints, ac, etc
08:52:52 <Ashenzari> disallow stabbing while confused (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1222) by ortoslon
08:53:08 <myuzinn> hitpoints normalised to 100, with a damage downscaling factor (DDF)
08:53:38 <bhaak> Napkin: WOT? it's angband and they disallow grinding their server! ;-)
08:53:47 <myuzinn> whereby DDF of 100 would nullify 100% of incoming damage (although 100 would be impossible to reach)
08:54:06 <myuzinn> racial, fighting skill, etc hitpoints gains are translated into bonuses to DDF
08:54:17 <myuzinn> and AC from armour is instead points added onto DDF as well
08:54:43 <by> hmm, should you be able to control teleports while berserk?
08:54:46 <Napkin> hehe, bhaak
08:55:50 <myuzinn> and there'd be some kind of noise added to make it a bit less predictable
08:56:00 <myuzinn> any thoughts?
08:56:13 <syllogism> by: you couldn't in 4.1
08:56:57 <syllogism> myuzinn: why
08:57:18 <myuzinn> I figure it's simpler
08:57:30 <myuzinn> and people have a better idea what their numbers mean at a glance
08:57:43 <greensnark> Napkin: Please join #unnethack so I can make amusing comments about your deaths :)
08:57:58 <st_> erm, I just started a character and there's a vault with orc priests behind glass, right next to the entry vault
08:58:00 <myuzinn> giant frog hits for 25 means you lose 25%, DDF of 30 means all attacks reduced (approximately) by 30%, etc
08:58:00 <ortoslon> does the second plus on blowguns matter in 0.6?
08:58:07 <Napkin> hehe, will keep you posted for the next game, greensnark :-P
08:58:12 <st_> warlords and sorcerers too
08:58:30 <greensnark> I should totally play enough UnNH to score a win
08:58:41 <greensnark> I've promised myself to do that as soon as Elbereth is removed :P
08:59:10 <greensnark> Because I am not strong enough to not use Elbereth if it is there
08:59:17 <greensnark> But I feel like a cheap cheater when I do use Elbereth :P
08:59:24 <greensnark> bhaak: Can you remove Elbereth? kthx!
08:59:59 <bhaak> I could turn it into an option :-D
09:00:23 <Napkin> what's the deal behind that Elbereth
09:00:24 <greensnark> :P
09:00:30 <by> ortoslon: I believe it determines whether things like paralysis and confusion have an effect
09:00:46 <by> for whatever reason, it doesn't affect curare
09:00:52 <Mu_> st_: that is one mean looking entry vault
09:01:09 <ortoslon> isn't this too spoilerish?
09:01:56 <by> it should be documented and made consistent
09:02:17 <ortoslon> is this in mantis?
09:02:24 <by> don't think so
09:02:43 <by> due would be the one to talk to about this
09:03:07 <syllogism> heh denzi's english <3
09:03:31 <dpeg> syllogism: compare it with your Japanese :)
09:03:47 <syllogism> dpeg: i don't think that's fair :P
09:04:56 <dpeg> myuzinn: the system would be more opaque
09:05:10 <myuzinn> ...?
09:05:15 <dpeg> by: I second no cTele when confused, berserk, memserised etc.
09:05:27 -!- Amonchakad has quit [Quit: Page closed]
09:05:51 <dpeg> myuzinn: your proposal
09:05:56 <myuzinn> could you explain I mean
09:06:09 <dpeg> myuzinn: right now, HP goes up and you compare with damage.
09:06:16 <dpeg> That's simple to understand.
09:06:35 <syllogism> oh denzi made the new water tiles?
09:07:08 <myuzinn> crawl also has AC
09:07:15 <syllogism> or are these even newer
09:07:17 <myuzinn> AC is not opaque currently
09:07:22 <st_> !lg clouded
09:07:22 <Henzell> 1712. clouded the Grave Robber (L1 DENe), slain by a hellwing (summoned by an orc sorcerer (led by an orc warlord)) on D:1 on 2010-03-31, with 22 points after 162 turns and 0:06:53.
09:07:27 <st_> so what's up with this?
09:07:56 <Ashenzari> don't allow teleport control when berserk, etc. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1223) by rob
09:08:13 <myuzinn> I'll write up something with examples on the wiki later if I don't decide it's trash (which is what usually happens after a while pondering my ideas)
09:08:16 <by> !lg clouded -tv
09:08:17 <Henzell> 1712. clouded, XL1 DENe, T:162 requested for FooTV.
09:09:01 <purge> "by introduction of Mr.Enne Walker. " woops
09:09:23 <syllogism> :P
09:09:28 <by> dpeg: can you have a look at clouded's death? you're entry vault expert after all
09:09:38 <dpeg> !lg clouded -tv
09:09:38 <Henzell> 1712. clouded, XL1 DENe, T:162 requested for FooTV.
09:10:23 <purge> Denzi is uber tile artist make him feel super welcome!
09:10:46 <dpeg> Where did that orc warrior come from?
09:10:57 <syllogism> nice
09:11:35 <syllogism> do we have anyone who speaks japanese
09:11:43 <dpeg> Denzi!
09:11:49 <syllogism> and also english :P
09:12:09 <dpeg> Not necessary, Denzi's English will do.
09:12:14 <myuzinn> time has eroded my japanese capabilities
09:12:20 <myuzinn> I can only remember a few insults now
09:12:39 <by> ixtli might well speak japanese
09:13:27 <by> dpeg: presumably the orc warrior escaped from that altar vault
09:13:36 <by> maybe the hellwing teleported him?
09:13:48 <purge> the problem with japanese is that even if you learn to speak it then you have to learn thousands of kanji symbols to read it!
09:13:54 <by> but isn't the orc sorceror already a bug?
09:14:58 <dpeg> by: no, I think that placing "orc warrior band" can create members of the band beyond walls.
09:15:01 <dpeg> Fixing now.
09:15:22 <bhaak> purge: e-books might make that easier
09:15:48 <dpeg> by: you mean that orc warrior bands shouldn't get sorcerers?
09:15:57 <dpeg> !lg clouded -tv
09:15:57 <Henzell> 1712. clouded, XL1 DENe, T:162 requested for FooTV.
09:16:16 <by> there shouldn't be sorcerors generated in vaults on D:1?
09:16:29 <by> or sorcerer, whatever
09:16:38 <dpeg> haha, orc warlord <3
09:16:48 <by> certainly not in walls with windows, so they can summon out?
09:17:23 <by> also, yes, bands are not automatically inside rooms
09:19:26 <dpeg> by: placing monsters by hand now
09:19:34 <dpeg> and the warlord was a thinko
09:19:40 <dpeg> should have been warrior
09:20:05 <dpeg> Btw, Johanna just greeted Denzi warmly.
09:21:19 <purge> Can't wait to see his new work!
09:21:48 <myuzinn> how popular is crawl in japan anyway?
09:22:28 <ixtli> I am on a Japanese train atm
09:22:41 <by> ixtli: is everybody playing crawl?
09:22:45 <ixtli> If you need something translated lemme know.
09:22:47 <ixtli> Hahahahahah
09:22:51 <ixtli> <3
09:23:20 -!- Cryptic has joined ##crawl-dev
09:23:24 <Cryptic> Morning
09:23:34 <ixtli> I don't see anyone playing crawl. But I've had a bit to drink.
09:23:50 * Cryptic not only has 7 teeth being removed on Friday, but also has a respritory and ear infection!
09:23:52 <purge> greensnark: you guessed wrong! :)
09:24:12 <ixtli> Cryptic: :O
09:24:16 <ixtli> Are you ok?
09:24:19 <dpeg> Cryptic: seven.... you cannot do that very often.
09:24:24 <Cryptic> oh meds, so I'm better than I would be otherwise
09:24:33 <Cryptic> dpeg, yep, 5 wisdom teeth, 2 molars.
09:24:44 <ixtli> Only like 5 times. Then all of your teeth are gone.
09:25:03 <dpeg> ixtli: the Japanese trains are cool, eh?
09:25:34 <Xiberia> holy crap
09:25:36 <ixtli> They're so cool. They have like 3 companies running in Tokyo.
09:25:37 <Xiberia> 7 teeth
09:25:44 <Xiberia> will there be any left after that`? :o
09:25:53 <Cryptic> lol
09:25:57 <purge> ixtli: have you been groped yet? :D
09:26:10 <Cryptic> yeah, I'll still have plenty. but don't expect any DS implementations on Friday, or over the weekend :P
09:26:12 <ixtli> JR, a private line, and metro
09:26:26 <Xiberia> :(
09:26:28 <myuzinn> what
09:26:30 <ixtli> purge:  no but there is a really hot girl in front of me
09:26:31 <myuzinn> 5 wisdom teeth?
09:26:35 <myuzinn> I thought the mouth only had 4
09:27:09 <ixtli> purge: And im white. Maybe luck will be on my side.
09:27:44 <ixtli> でも俺の乗り替え駅は次だから仕方無いんだもん
09:27:50 <Cryptic> anyone else getting a "missing travel_stoppers.txt" on cdo?
09:27:55 <Xiberia> yep
09:27:59 <Xiberia> been since yesterday
09:28:49 <Cryptic> !seen by
09:28:50 <Henzell> I last saw by at Wed Mar 31 14:22:41 2010 UTC (6m 9s ago) saying ixtli: is everybody playing crawl? on ##crawl-dev.
09:29:10 <Cryptic> by, let me know if there are problems with my patch
09:29:16 <bhaak> myuzinn: there were more people from japan answering the nethack poll than the crawl poll. according to the polls nethack is 600% more popular in japan than crawl :)
09:29:30 <greensnark> !seen ixtli
09:29:30 <Henzell> I last saw ixtli at Wed Mar 31 14:27:44 2010 UTC (1m 46s ago) saying でも俺の乗り替え駅は次だから仕方無いんだもん on ##crawl-dev.
09:29:43 <ixtli> I'm right here.
09:29:55 <Xiberia> Cryptic, the patches are live on cdo now?
09:29:57 <ixtli> Though my phone has 4% battery.
09:29:58 <greensnark> ixtli: Just wanted to check if Henzell would quote you right :P
09:30:01 <Xiberia> familiar, antennae etc?
09:30:06 <ixtli> Nice :D
09:30:27 <dpeg> Cryptic: by !told you
09:30:31 <Cryptic> Xiberia, not yet, they're coming in today though, if by has time to commit them...I think, they're a big patch with major enum changes, so there's not save-transfer compatability.
09:30:38 <dpeg> Cryptic: they're in!
09:30:39 <Cryptic> ohh
09:30:40 <Cryptic> lol
09:30:42 -!- Cryptic is now known as Cryp71c
09:30:43 <Cryp71c> ..
09:30:43 <Henzell> Cryp71c: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
09:30:44 <Xiberia> oooo
09:30:45 <Cryp71c> haha
09:30:47 <Cryp71c> !messages
09:30:48 <Henzell> (1/1) by said (1h 49m 30s ago): Patch is in, with some changes. Are you intended to be able to wear helmets with antennae? Are you supposed to deactivate then kill your guardian to get rid of it?
09:30:54 <Xiberia> i'm rolling a DS right now
09:30:58 <ortoslon> O_o
09:32:23 <Cryp71c> by, iirc Antennae follow the same rules as horns, soft-caps only. I plan to add code that if you're wearing a cap, it restricts / removes the effects of Antennae (since their covered, they don't work as well / at all). There is no way to dismiss the guardian, if its summoned, its there until it dies, do you think a dismiss option would be appropriate?
09:32:34 <Cryp71c> s/soft-caps/soft-helmets
09:33:02 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev
09:33:04 <by> Cryp71c: re antennae, I was able to wear helmets just fine while wearing them
09:33:22 <by> Cryp71c: re guardian, I don't see the point of a "deactivate" ability in this form
09:33:31 <syllogism> heh http://zoome.jp/hare6ki/diary/230
09:33:38 <Cryp71c> by, it would completely ruin a stealthy DS
09:33:48 <Cryp71c> to have a monster trapesing around, waking everything up
09:35:05 <syllogism> zin worshipper, wow :P
09:35:10 <Cryp71c> by, ah ok I couldn't recall precisely how I had implemented it, I guess I was thinking that all caps would be fine, but hard-helmets would stop Antennae benefits (which isn't implemented atm)
09:35:38 <Cryp71c> by, also, it would be a source of tons of piety loss for areas where your guardian would be constantly dying, and your god dislikes allies dying.
09:35:38 <by> anyway, these are things that feel weird about the current implementation; just wanted to let you know
09:35:43 <Cryp71c> thanks
09:35:51 <Cryp71c> I'll address them with another patch
09:37:07 <by> dpeg: you're involved in the demonspawn mutations, right? I really don't want to discuss the mutation design
09:37:19 -!- by has quit [Quit: later]
09:39:22 <Xiberia> Cryp71c, is antennae a physical mutation?
09:39:27 <Xiberia> a la horns, claws etc
09:39:36 <Cryp71c> Xiberia, yeah, its a body-slot facet
09:39:41 <Xiberia> ah, cool
09:39:47 <Cryp71c> SO no horns for you
09:39:53 <Xiberia> :)
09:40:37 <myuzinn> why would caps not stop horns but stop antennae
09:40:51 <myuzinn> I spose it depends where you mentally picture them positioned
09:41:42 <Cryp71c> myuzinn, when you headbut someone, the cap crumples, allowing the horns to still make a full physical impact, but antennae work off of "feeling the air" or however you'd like to imagine them, covering them reduces / eliminates their effectiveness.
09:42:31 <myuzinn> I prefer to just picture them jutting out of the forehead, sneaking out the front of the headware
09:43:14 -!- Spads has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
09:43:26 <myuzinn> honestly I'd prefer it that you just made headware unavailable, if you think the power is that important
09:43:40 <purge> just so you know, i have crashed twice in the abyss starting out as a jugonite
09:43:42 <purge> lugonite
09:43:42 <Cryp71c> Yeah, to keep them in line with other body-slot facets, some loss of slot has to occur :P yeah they should prevent hard-helmets.
09:43:50 <purge> so bug is not fixed
09:43:54 <Cryp71c> That's a bug on my part.
09:44:30 <Cryp71c> How do you add a learndb entry which redirects to another learndb entry?
09:44:45 <felirx> Going to break menu.cc, menu.h, tilereg.cc and tilereg.h again :(
09:47:01 <Xiberia> Cryp71c, are spines also in?
09:47:05 <Xiberia> and if so, how do they work?
09:47:14 <Cryp71c> Xiberia, yeah, just writing up the Learndb entry on them
09:47:22 <Xiberia> ah
09:47:40 <Xiberia> sorry for constantly bugging you
09:47:49 <Xiberia> i just like the new changes
09:48:35 <Cryp71c> !learn add Spiny Has a chance of doing 3d6 - enemy AC - player EVP damage to enemies in melee combat when their attack is not blocked by the player. New in .7
09:48:36 <Henzell> spiny[1/1]: Has a chance of doing 3d6 - enemy AC - player EVP damage to enemies in melee combat when their attack is not blocked by the player. New in .7
09:59:02 <Cryp71c> dpeg, hrm, should Spiny have a chance of doing damage on each attack recieved? right now its every non-blocked attack.
10:02:15 <Cryp71c> I see balance issues already :P Only have lvl 1 of the mut and it pretty readily kills low-level creatures.
10:02:26 <bhaak> crawl doesn't make a distinction between dark and lit rooms?
10:03:14 <purge> woohoo i have a reproduceable level-gen crash! Submitting the save....
10:06:59 -!- by has joined ##crawl-dev
10:08:15 <Ashenzari> Crash when going down stairs (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1224) by purge
10:08:18 <ortoslon> bhaak: no
10:08:46 <ortoslon> everything is lit, also there's no blindness
10:09:22 <Cryp71c> by, yeah I'll have a patch for you, Spines is also a bit tweaky, its doing damage on ever non-shield block melee attack. should be chance_in_something
10:09:31 <Cryp71c> s/ever/every
10:10:27 <purge> oh and btw i am just making a complete guess that its a level-gen crash
10:14:45 <ais523> why can't I press ! to change spell view in the memorisation screen?
10:15:11 <ais523> instead, I have to go to the book, then to the individual description, to see how much hunger/range a spell will cost
10:20:01 <Cryp71c> that would be nice to have, but its a direct reflection of the difficulty of learning the spell.
10:20:11 <ais523> also, is Makhleb meant to give piety for killing butterflies?
10:20:13 <Cryp71c> Hard difficulty == higher food cost, but the precise amount would be nice.
10:20:26 <ais523> Cryp71c: yep, especially as expecting people to memorise the formula is pretty much spoiler info
10:22:12 <MarvinPA> well especially since the information is all available when you read the spellbook now, it'd make a lot of sense to be able to see it from the memorisation screen too
10:22:22 <MarvinPA> that's bugged me in the past too, you should FR it :P
10:22:51 <dpeg> back
10:23:20 <Ashenzari> cancelling controlled teleport is too difficult (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1225) by rob
10:23:42 <dpeg> by: yes, I am watching all the DS stuff.
10:25:03 <by> why does this ice dragon vault have potions of levitation, when all the water is shallow?
10:25:30 <dpeg> Cryp71c: first, we should have a ds mutations feedback page
10:25:35 <dpeg> I will set one up later today.
10:26:04 <Cryp71c> ah, yeah
10:26:36 -!- Spads has joined ##crawl-dev
10:28:07 <Cryp71c> nooo! HOoves
10:28:08 <Cryp71c> :P
10:28:34 -!- hotsun has quit [Quit:  HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- In tests, 0x09 out of 0x0A l33t h4x0rz prefer it :)]
10:30:18 <dpeg> Cryp71c: in your game?
10:30:23 <Cryp71c> yep
10:31:27 <by> what's the plan for armour/ev training? is there a feedback page?
10:32:16 <by> btw, is it still the case that by themselves, the first EVP*3 levels of dodging are entirely worthless?
10:34:32 -!- MarvinPA-2 has joined ##crawl-dev
10:34:48 <dpeg> by: Armour/Dodging training have not been changed, but should, imo
10:34:57 <by> they must have been changed
10:35:18 <by> you didn't use to train dodging in heavy armour at all
10:35:30 <dpeg> https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:armour_training
10:35:40 <dpeg> by: oh, that was a preliminary change, yes
10:35:40 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
10:35:44 <by> my current character has been wearing ring, then scale mail since D:1, and now has Armour 5, Dodging 10
10:35:49 <dpeg> To improve the situation without too much effort.
10:36:04 <by> that seems completely broken
10:36:08 <dpeg> by: please read up on ^ -- this is what I envision
10:36:20 <dpeg> by: Armour training is too slow, this effect is probably stronger in 0.6.
10:36:33 <by> so feedback on the current state is not really required
10:37:02 <dpeg> by: I don't know...
10:37:10 <dpeg> ...depends on when we change the training system
10:37:18 <dpeg> If only for 0.8, then feedback is helpful.
10:37:30 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev
10:37:44 <syllogism> well with the old system you would have started training dodging after armour 6
10:37:48 <dpeg> bmh: Hi BrendaN!
10:37:55 <bmh> howdy
10:38:01 <syllogism> with ring mail
10:38:04 * bmh takes a break from reading about fast parsers
10:38:35 <bmh> dpeg: I like the idea for a Forest mini-branch. It would be a good home for all sorts of evil trees
10:38:42 <ixtli> Anyway.  What started that conversation about the Japanese roguelike player base?
10:38:55 <dpeg> bmh: I think that kilobyte likes forests too :)
10:39:06 <dpeg> ixtli: Denzi @ Mantis
10:39:15 <ixtli> I see.
10:39:38 <bmh> dpeg: I added a short proposal for Fruit Trees to the wiki. The idea is to have Wizard of Oz style trees that pelt the player with rotten fruit
10:39:39 <ixtli> Someone said something about kanji being hard, though IMO it's the speaking that ends up being the worst.  Sounding native is impossible :(
10:39:43 <syllogism> feel free to translate jpeg's post if you want :P
10:39:57 <bmh> ...and then retreat into trees when the going gets tough.
10:40:14 <bmh> Should axes do extra damage to 7's? :-)
10:40:18 <dpeg> bmh: ok, cool
10:40:23 <dpeg> bmh: no
10:40:35 <syllogism> acid fruit
10:40:51 <bmh> syllogism: That sounds too much like an Oklob Plant
10:41:03 <dpeg> bmh: it could be the missing link
10:42:49 <dpeg> syllogism: I don't think that Denzi's is too bad. I rather think that Finns have skewed norms about English :)
10:43:04 <dpeg> * Denzi's English
10:44:04 <syllogism> dpeg: it looks like a typical japanese machine translation or maybe a bit better
10:45:06 -!- xardas-3 has joined ##crawl-dev
10:45:15 <bhaak> syllogism: not to me, it is a bit worse than the English one of unnethack's first japanese users writes. It looks rather legit to me.
10:45:20 <bmh> dpeg: How about a collection of linker mini-branches? Forest, Mini-Shoals, Mushroom caves?
10:48:28 <Ashenzari> Crash when praying (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1226) by 78291
10:48:44 <syllogism> bhaak: well he/she certainly spell checked all the words :P
10:48:50 <dpeg> bmh: one step after the other
10:48:59 <dpeg> so many crashes :(
10:49:04 <bhaak> syllogism: that's a feature of modern browsers :)
10:49:08 <syllogism> not mine :P
10:50:14 <syllogism> though it's quite apparent some of the words were machine translated or at least some online dictionary utilized
10:51:19 <elly> dpeg: you want Mu_ added as a committer?
10:51:35 <ixtli> syllogism: Again, I could never make it natural.  Fantasy stuff is the hardest to translate.
10:51:54 <ixtli> like we understand what an "Orc" is because we speak Engligh.
10:51:58 <ixtli> english, heh.
10:52:07 -!- MarvinPA-2 is now known as MarvinPA
10:52:23 <ixtli> But you'd need a similar /concept/ in japanese.  And I certainly don't know it.
10:52:48 <bmh> just show them a drawing of an orc.
10:52:50 <ixtli> I could cop out and just transliterate everything, but I don't think that would work very well :(
10:52:56 <purge> oni?
10:53:01 <elly> dpeg: it is done
10:53:04 <ixtli> purge: But then everything is oni.
10:53:08 <bhaak> ixtli: http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%82%AA%E3%83%BC%E3%82%AF_%28%E6%9E%B6%E7%A9%BA%E3%81%AE%E7%94%9F%E7%89%A9%29 ;-)
10:53:18 <syllogism> you wouldn't have to translate "Orc" anyway :P
10:53:27 <purge> true :)
10:53:30 <ixtli> purge: There are great words for demons and devils in Japanese. I'm just not fluent enough to be able to use it.
10:53:44 <purge> i only know oni and akuma
10:53:46 <ixtli> bmh: But I mean, isn't immersion the key to enjoyment?
10:54:28 <ixtli> bhaak: Actually that page says that Orc comes from the latin for "akuma"
10:54:29 <ixtli> xD
10:54:37 <ixtli> See?!
10:54:42 <ixtli> Japanese is confusing :(
10:55:27 <ixtli> Huh.  Interesting, apparently that's true.
10:55:35 <ixtli> Comes from the word "Orcus" which I guess means "hell."
10:55:39 <ixtli> But.  Who knows.
10:55:41 <bhaak> ixtli: I experienced quite a different level of immersion when playing nethack in german whereas johanna said she didn't notice a difference between the englisch and german version
10:55:53 <ixtli> Really.
10:56:20 <bhaak> maybe she just likes to slaughter letters resp. now in Crawl pretty pictures  :)
10:56:37 <ixtli> Hahahaha
10:56:41 <ixtli> A good friend of mine who speaks both Norwegian, English and japanese fluently says that most translations into Norwegian are so bad they get int the way of the fun.
10:57:08 <ixtli> We were talking specifically about the Norwegian translation of Westnoth.
10:57:15 <bhaak> oh
10:57:20 <ixtli> But he said it's the same with most OSS games.
10:57:23 <Spads> my dutch friends all use computers in English because nobody in the Netherlands can remember what the dutch translation for (say) "mail merge" would be, etc.
10:57:32 <ixtli> From what I've seen crawl would be hard to translate.
10:57:36 <CIA-43> 03dolorous * rb86f8146cf0c 10/crawl-ref/source/ (enum.h mutation.cc): Fix typos and wording.
10:57:45 <bhaak> they usually just do gettext and if that doesn't fit, they rape your language :(
10:57:47 <ixtli> But should we ever make it localizable, he would totally be able to do a Norwegian port.
10:58:12 <ixtli> Spads: I was reading a book about using *nix in japanese the other day in a book store.
10:58:18 <ixtli> And everything is in english.
10:58:25 <ixtli> They don't even bother transliterating.
10:58:49 <Spads> yes
10:59:01 <ixtli> I met a guy just tonight that does help desk in tokyo somewhere, and his english was much better than the average suit here.
10:59:09 <ixtli> Probably because he has to know about computers.
10:59:15 <Spads> yeah
10:59:15 <dpeg> elly: yes please (Mu is dev)
10:59:23 <elly> dpeg: it is done
10:59:37 <Mu_> thank you
10:59:51 * elly is like a network service that speaks English
11:00:15 <ixtli> Hahah
11:00:40 <ixtli> I have to take a networking class next semester at my home university to complete my CS degree.
11:00:53 <ixtli> I hope all we have to do is implement TCPIP stack in c and be done with it.
11:00:54 <ixtli> :(
11:01:10 <elly> that sounds easy
11:01:17 <ixtli> I hope so.
11:01:19 <elly> that is like... project 2 of our networking class here :P
11:01:20 <ixtli> But I really don't know.
11:01:35 <dpeg> elly: :)
11:01:38 <ixtli> I don't know very much about networking so I worry.
11:01:46 <elly> ixtli: it's still just code
11:01:59 <ixtli> yeah I just hope they approach it in that way, you know?
11:02:08 <bmh> Don't underestimate mere code.
11:02:10 <elly> there's no other way to approach code than as code :P
11:02:10 <ixtli> I know a lot of network engineers who stress the importance of memorization.
11:02:14 <ixtli> Which I /dislike/
11:02:18 <ixtli> /strongly/
11:02:19 <elly> those people are wrong, though
11:02:25 <ixtli> elly: I know!
11:02:26 <elly> the opinions of wrong people can be safely ignored
11:02:40 <ixtli> elly: Can you come to my university and talk to people for me? :D
11:02:49 <elly> depends how far away it is
11:02:51 <ixtli> In fact can you just follow me around?
11:02:56 <elly> I'm not going to Florida :P
11:03:02 <ixtli> elly: UMass Amherst.
11:03:08 <elly> well then
11:03:09 <ixtli> In Massachusetts, USA.
11:03:14 <elly> my job will be in boston after I graduate, so :)
11:03:22 <ixtli> Yay!
11:03:30 <dpeg> elly: will you still be here after that?
11:03:33 <ixtli> You should totally visit Northampton.
11:03:40 <ixtli> It's a happening place xD
11:03:41 <elly> dpeg: in certain frames of 'here', yes
11:03:48 <dpeg> elly: :)
11:03:50 <elly> dpeg: I will no longer be in pittsburgh, but I will still be on IRC
11:03:50 <ixtli> Also, Boston is great, but it kinda shuts down at 1am.
11:03:53 <ixtli> Sort of like Tokyo :(
11:03:58 <ixtli> I'm spoiled by New York.
11:03:59 <elly> that's fine - pittsburgh shuts down at 8pm
11:04:09 <ixtli> :(
11:04:11 <bmh> elly: Where will you be working?
11:04:36 <elly> google boston
11:04:44 <ixtli> Congrats :D
11:04:52 <ixtli> I know one person who works at google, but hes a lawyer.
11:04:53 <ixtli> So.
11:07:22 <ixtli> Has there been a meetup of crawl devs?
11:07:32 <ixtli> Seems like it might be fun.
11:07:45 <bmh> How many of us are in Boston?
11:07:53 * ixtli raises hand.
11:08:00 <dpeg> ixtli: never, as far as I know
11:08:02 * bmh raises his hand
11:08:04 <ixtli> (Sometimes, that is.  I've also been known to be in New York)
11:08:19 <bmh> we should take rax out for drinks.
11:08:24 <bmh> pay for our bandwidth
11:08:25 <ixtli> :D
11:08:39 <bmh> crawl hackathon...?
11:09:03 <ixtli> Sounds good to me.  If anyone in here happens to be in Japan before the beginning of August I will give free tours of Tokyo given a few weeks notice :D
11:10:17 -!- Spads has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
11:13:26 <syllogism> "I get it, they want this game to be hard and stuff i get that, i like it, but STARVING to death? Really? Atleast they could have put in an option to have starvation lower some of your stats instead of insta killing you. "
11:14:06 <myuzinn> lol
11:14:32 <syllogism> he was playing a troll and probably isn't aware of their metabolism
11:14:55 <myuzinn> death... from starvation?! As a sheltered first worlder, that is just not realistic!
11:15:18 <ixtli> Well.
11:15:19 <ixtli> Come now.
11:15:33 <ixtli> /I/ often get taken to the hospital before I starve to death.
11:15:50 <myuzinn> clearly we need a hospital in crawl
11:15:55 <ixtli> That might be fun.  If you die a stupid death you could wake up and be forced to worship a certain god.
11:15:56 <myuzinn> if you die you just pop into the zot hospital
11:16:14 <ixtli> And if it conflicts with your previous god, well then ... good luck :)
11:16:21 <myuzinn> elyvilon says "now be more careful silly!" as she slaps a bandaid on your forehead
11:18:32 <myuzinn> eh I view permadeath as a good fit for the somewhat linear dungeon
11:18:41 <myuzinn> if it were more open world explorey then maybe
11:19:20 <CIA-43> 03dpeg * r9a5822ddc779 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/entry.des: Repair orcish cave_to_temple subvault (clouded).
11:27:55 <ixtli> Definitely.
11:28:03 <ixtli> But I think a hospital would be a cool idea.
11:28:22 <ixtli> Even if that's not how you end up there XD
11:33:02 -!- ortoslon has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
11:37:36 <myuzinn> maybe a kobold hospital
11:39:01 <ixtli> :D
11:39:23 <ixtli> Something about kobold nurses gets me excited.
11:40:30 <myuzinn> I'm sure you can find a rule 34 of it somewhere
11:44:02 -!- Madtrixr has joined ##crawl-dev
11:48:14 <doy> starvation does lower some of your stats before insta killing you
12:11:36 <bmh> doy: but not in a way that the player is aware of. You fight poorly, but it doesn't show up as stat damage. Right?
12:12:16 <doy> yeah, it's more like inverse-might i think
12:12:48 <bmh> I'm so glad that crawl doesn't have nethack-like stat abuse
12:13:55 <Ashenzari> Red ~ weirdness (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1227) by dpeg
12:14:16 <jarpiain> ?? weapon damage[5]
12:14:16 <Henzell> I don't have a page labeled weapon_damage[5] in my learndb.
12:14:27 <jarpiain> ?? weapon damage[3]
12:14:27 <Henzell> weapon damage[3/3]: Damage bonuses include +1d10 for {might}, -1d{asp} for 1.5-handed weapons with shield, -1d5 when Starving, and racial weapon bonus ( +1d3-1 for dwarves and demonspawn, +1 for orcs (more with Beogh)).
12:14:28 <by> dpeg: that looks like your antenna mutation
12:15:30 <syllogism> silly dpeg :P
12:16:30 <dpeg> by: ah :)
12:16:32 <dpeg> silly dpeg
12:16:49 <by> travel should make use of controlled teleportitis
12:17:21 <doy> "oops, forgot to take that ring off, now i'm at my destination, with red glow"
12:17:22 <dpeg> by: true
12:17:24 <doy> sounds like fun
12:17:26 <doy> d:
12:17:38 <syllogism> well cancelling it makes you glow as well
12:18:07 <doy> syllogism: sure, but you can take off the ring once you realize "hey, i don't want to be doing this the whole way down"
12:18:15 <Cryp71c> dpeg, lol I should screenshot this.
12:18:29 <Cryp71c> dpeg filing mantis reports for correctly-working mutations :P
12:18:31 <doy> also, it's hard to determine where the best place to teleport to is, if the stairs are in a hallway or something
12:18:42 <syllogism> plus it's not accurate
12:18:52 <doy> it'll most likely be faster to teleport to the room outside the hallway
12:18:57 <doy> so you actually land near the target
12:19:07 <by> ok, we should make it scriptable
12:19:26 <Cryp71c> you can get red glow?
12:19:35 <doy> Cryp71c: sure can!
12:19:38 <by> cancelling teleports is so annoying I'm considering drinking that potion of cure mutation
12:19:40 <syllogism> does examining the red ~s show anything
12:19:46 <Cryp71c> syllogism, no
12:20:03 <dpeg> probably should, but that's for later
12:20:19 <Cryp71c> dpeg, yeah that's a bit more elaborate, not sure quite how to do that.
12:20:20 <by> it doesn't for detected monsters either as far as I know
12:20:33 <Cryp71c> yeah, no it doesn't
12:20:43 <Cryp71c> that's what I moddled it all after
12:20:53 <dpeg> Cryp71c: is it intended that antenna works through walls?
12:21:20 <Cryp71c> dpeg, yes, if it turns out to be too powerful, it can be changed to 3/5 walk-path
12:21:52 <syllogism> wouldn't it be worthless if it didn't work through walls
12:22:10 <syllogism> well almost
12:22:21 <Cryp71c> It would certainly be a lot less powerful
12:22:37 <MarvinPA> my recent DS had mapping 3 and a +9 rod of discovery, if only i'd waited for antennae to be implemented
12:22:44 <MarvinPA> could've pretended that divinations were never removed :P
12:22:59 <dpeg> MarvinPA: :)
12:24:09 <MarvinPA> was very useful for instantly detecting all the traps on zot:5, and all the loot in the hell branch ends :P
12:27:01 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
12:27:55 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: Page closed]
12:28:09 <bhaak> I'd say we wrap this thing up and leave. nethack and crawl can't stand for a second against this competition http://roguelikedeveloper.blogspot.com/search/label/df2 :-(
12:29:25 <dpeg> What a mess :)
12:34:57 <ais523> dwarf fortress is not a roguelike...
12:37:17 <Madtrixr> It kind of is.
12:37:33 <bhaak> it won roguelike of the year 2007 :)
12:38:17 <by> in what way is it a roguelike? because it has dwarves?
12:39:47 <Madtrixr> cause it's ascii based  (I already know this doesn't work as an arguement)
12:44:41 -!- purge has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
12:45:06 <syllogism> it has a roguelike mode too
12:45:41 <Zaba> well, play rogue, and then try to find things that are similar
12:45:58 <Zaba> if you can't come up with a striking lot of things, it's not a roguelike :P
12:46:04 <Madtrixr> :P
12:47:46 <myuzinn> it's roguelike if it's top down with ascii characters
12:47:57 <Zaba> nope
12:47:58 <myuzinn> in terms of how people immediately recognise it
12:48:22 <Zaba> those aren't necessarily the correct terms ;p
12:48:46 <myuzinn> it looks "like" rogue
12:49:09 <bhaak> does it pass the berlin interpretation?
12:49:10 <myuzinn> honestly I hate the whole definition squabbling :p
12:49:10 <Zaba> a roguelike can be 3d and graphical, as long as everyone's still out to get you and death is 1) permanent, 2) easy.  :P
12:49:12 <syllogism> it has a mode where you control a @ and go around killing things
12:50:07 <Madtrixr> It is randomly generated.
12:50:27 <Madtrixr> Don't forget that.
12:50:39 <myuzinn> procedural generation is the best part of roguelikes imo
12:50:41 <Zaba> syllogism, in roguelikes, it's primarily things going around and killing the @.
12:50:48 <myuzinn> the one I'm most interested in in any case
12:50:53 <Madtrixr> myu: Yes, I agree.
12:50:58 <myuzinn> don't care so much about the whole "kill monsters, collect loots" part
12:51:26 * Madtrixr likes that part too.
12:51:33 <myuzinn> eeeh, gets stale
12:51:33 <syllogism> okay well it's like that in DF as well, unless you are a thrower, in which case you can throw butterflies and annihilate everything
12:51:55 <myuzinn> I'm tempted to code a puzzle game out of doomrl's modding feature
12:52:16 <Madtrixr> lol
12:52:29 <myuzinn> I think I could do it
12:52:34 <Madtrixr> DO IT.
12:52:45 <myuzinn> maybe see how many functions I can emulate from that adventures of lolo game on the nes
12:59:35 -!- purge has joined ##crawl-dev
13:04:03 <dpeg> myuzinn: the point of thinking about what makes a roguelike is not joy from definitions, but gaining an understanding of how the genre works. Deviating from the "rules" is encouraged.
13:06:40 <myuzinn> eh
13:07:17 <myuzinn> my view is that you find interesting gameplay and elaborate upon it regardless of what particular definition it falls under
13:07:29 <dpeg> myuzinn: you don't understand, but I won't explain
13:07:43 <myuzinn> it's very late so I am thick
13:07:47 <myuzinn> shoudl sleep
13:07:50 <ais523> I don't feel that death being permanent is inherent in roguelikes, although it's a very common features
13:07:53 <ais523> *feature
13:08:02 <dpeg> ais523: it's crucial
13:08:03 <ais523> is NetHack's explore mode a roguelike?
13:08:16 <dpeg> random content + permanent death
13:08:21 <dpeg> These go very far.
13:08:28 <ais523> dpeg: hmm... inability to return to save is probably more the essence than permadeath
13:09:22 <myuzinn> I had not heard anything about this dwarf fortress 2 at all
13:09:54 <myuzinn> thanks for the link
13:12:34 <Siber> wait, what? DF2?
13:12:49 <myuzinn> http://roguelikedeveloper.blogspot.com/search/label/df2
13:13:40 <syllogism> did you actually read it, or is this very meta
13:14:29 <myuzinn> not all yet
13:14:32 <myuzinn> this is a big joke isn't it
13:14:52 <myuzinn> :/
13:15:22 <ais523> myuzinn: not until tomorrow
13:15:28 <myuzinn> I hate april 1st so much
13:19:21 <myuzinn> sleeps
13:19:23 -!- myuzinn has quit []
13:19:26 <Madtrixr> lol
13:21:54 <Cryp71c> by, still there?
13:23:22 <by> what is it?
13:23:59 <Cryp71c> by, now that the demonspawn changes are commited, what happens when I rebase my demonspawn branch on top of master (which already has the demonspawn changes), anything peculiar?
13:24:28 <by> don't know exactly; probably some conflicts
13:24:39 <by> if you want to play it safe, make an extra branch and try there
13:27:42 <doy> Cryp71c: if the changes are committed, why are you rebasing the branch?
13:27:51 <doy> just make a new branch from master
13:27:57 <Cryp71c> doy, yeah, that's what I ended up doing.
13:28:28 <doy> rebasing is only useful if there are actually commits to rebase
13:28:39 <Siber> Okay, the first posts are sorta plausible and enticing, but the last couple crank up the absurdity factor sufficently.
13:31:41 <dpeg> by: I get crashes when using javelins of returning. Are these filed?
13:32:24 <dpeg> unfortunely, I cannot reproduce them yet, but I had two so far
13:34:58 <by> there's a report for crashes with daggers of returning
13:35:09 <bhaak> that's mine!
13:35:54 <by> that one seems to involve missing the target, and then something related to some feature later in the path
13:36:35 <by> could I have saved the human from the kiku vault if I had thought to disintegrate earlier?
13:36:37 <dpeg> by: same with my one!
13:36:51 <by> what is same with your one?
13:36:54 <dpeg> by: hm nobody ever tried that :)
13:37:13 <dpeg> by: I fired my javelin at a iguana, and it turned out there was another monster behind it
13:37:19 <dpeg> (which I didn't see)
13:38:52 <syllogism> there seem to be a lot of new players
13:39:58 <dpeg> syllogism: for Crawl?
13:40:13 <syllogism> what else
13:40:20 -!- MarvinPA-2 has joined ##crawl-dev
13:40:20 <dpeg> syllogism: DF :)
13:40:45 <dpeg> syllogism: I believe the new version has been announced somewhere... also John's @play may have had an effect.
13:41:03 <bhaak> new posting about DF2 :)
13:42:47 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
13:46:41 <CIA-43> 03j-p-e-g * ra4037ce2df8c 10/crawl-ref/source/ (6 files in 2 dirs): Read species/background descriptions from the database.
13:47:22 <Siber> Yeah, cranking up the absurdity considerably
13:47:28 -!- MarvinPA-2 is now known as MarvinPA
14:03:23 <CIA-43> 03dolorous * rbb0a2e31f000 10/crawl-ref/source/mutation.cc: Fix wording again.
14:08:00 -!- xardas-3 has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.8/20100214235838]]
14:10:36 <ais523> "The hellwing gestures at you. Your rock troll resists." Bug?
14:11:31 <CIA-43> 03dolorous * r028e0723f97d 10/crawl-ref/source/mutation.cc: Tweak wording one more time.
14:11:31 <syllogism> no
14:11:37 <syllogism> assuming it was in the way
14:11:38 <ais523> what happened, then?
14:11:45 <ais523> ah, it aimed at me and hit the troll instead?
14:11:48 <syllogism> yes
14:12:18 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev
14:14:13 <dpeg> yay jpeg
14:14:30 <dpeg> Cryp71c: And dolorous is taking care of your patch -- nothing bad can happen now :)
14:15:40 -!- Butch has joined ##crawl-dev
14:16:17 <dpeg> Sense Surroundings is no longer an active ability, eh?
14:17:30 <Cryp71c> dpeg, wait, dolorous? doy?
14:17:38 <dpeg> Cryp71c: dolorous
14:17:43 <Cryp71c> oh, ok
14:18:02 <doy> i'm not touching demonspawn stuff
14:18:03 <doy> (:
14:18:38 <TGWi> wink
14:19:34 <Butch> Congratulations on the new release for the whole team, and thank you very much for your effort :)
14:20:53 <dpeg> Butch: hey, thanks :)
14:23:58 -!- TGWi has left ##crawl-dev
14:26:02 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev
14:26:28 -!- TGWi has left ##crawl-dev
14:29:07 -!- Mindiell has joined ##crawl-dev
14:30:57 -!- MarvinPA-2 has joined ##crawl-dev
14:34:48 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
14:34:51 <Cryp71c> dpeg, is dolorous on irc regularly, or is email a better way to get ahold of them?
14:36:25 <dpeg> Cryp71c: dolorous is never on irc :)
14:36:46 <Cryp71c> ah, k.
14:36:55 <dpeg> Cryp71c: he's very careful about wording and clean code, and he started correcting small stuff from your patch :)
14:37:03 <dpeg> Which is good.
14:38:22 <by> it would be nice if the antenna ~ from older-than-this-turn were dark red
14:39:05 <dpeg> by: yes
14:39:14 <dpeg> by: playing DS too?
14:40:15 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev
14:40:35 <syllogism> dolorous.gif http://i42.tinypic.com/fm14sh.gif
14:40:36 <by> yes
14:40:36 <MarvinPA-2> it'd be cool if the dowsing card did that as well
14:42:04 -!- MarvinPA-2 has quit []
14:42:10 <dpeg> syllogism: yes, but dolorous also coded the new TSO.
14:42:17 <dpeg> and Zin, and other god stuff
14:42:28 <syllogism> sure, I didn't mean to imply that's all he does :P
14:44:10 <dpeg> syllogism: ah, okay :)
14:44:22 <dpeg> He is quite obsessed with spaces, sure.
14:47:58 <syllogism> does nighstalker do anything besides increase stealth
14:48:51 <dpeg> Don't know offhand.
14:49:08 <syllogism> the stealth bonus is very nice, but wasn't sure if this was the mutation that was also supposed to decrease LOS
14:50:52 <Mu_> i believe it is
14:51:32 <syllogism> also these spines a lot of damage, I wonder if you can get passive freezing at the same time
14:52:03 <syllogism> do*
14:54:07 <syllogism> spines+passive freezing oneshotted hydra :P
14:54:49 <doy> @??hydra
14:54:49 <Gretell> hydra (09D) | Speed: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 13 | Health: 39-104 | AC/EV: 0/5 | Damage: 18 per head | Flags: amphibious | Res: 06magic(52), 03poison | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 1212.
14:54:50 <syllogism> and the lernaean hydra
14:57:58 <dpeg> syllogism: Right now, we should just get a feeling for the various DS mutations.
14:58:12 <dpeg> Then, we should balance them, first alone, and then in sets.
14:58:23 <dpeg> I am also not fully happy with the way mutations are handed out.
15:07:45 <CIA-43> 03dpeg * rfb9121ffe339 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/ (ability.txt backgrounds.txt species.txt): Add short descriptions for the background/species screens.
15:07:45 -!- Madtrixr has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
15:08:26 -!- Madtrixr has joined ##crawl-dev
15:14:47 <dpeg> So many DS on CDO <3
15:15:12 <doy> !lg * cv=~0.7 s=race
15:15:33 <Henzell> 1541 games for * (cv=~0.7): 449x Demonspawn, 179x Spriggan, 119x Mountain Dwarf, 110x Deep Elf, 90x Troll, 69x Ogre, 54x High Elf, 54x Kenku, 54x Vampire, 50x Mummy, 37x Hill Orc, 37x Minotaur, 36x Merfolk, 31x Human, 27x Kobold, 27x Sludge Elf, 24x Deep Dwarf, 23x Draconian, 22x Demigod, 15x Naga, 14x Ghoul, 9x Centaur, 5x Halfling, 1x Green Draconian, 1x Red Draconian, 1x Grey Draconian, 1x Pale...
15:15:38 <doy> haha
15:15:49 <doy> !lg * cv=0.5 s=race
15:15:54 <Henzell> 225914 games for * (cv=0.5): 37869x Deep Elf, 23578x Mummy, 22810x Demonspawn, 15784x Spriggan, 15481x Mountain Dwarf, 13802x High Elf, 9409x Minotaur, 9119x Merfolk, 9045x Hill Orc, 7929x Sludge Elf, 7291x Draconian, 7258x Vampire, 7067x Human, 6366x Kobold, 5253x Troll, 4997x Kenku, 4438x Ogre, 3812x Deep Dwarf, 3377x Naga, 3046x Demigod, 2891x Ghoul, 2453x Halfling, 1903x Centaur, 129x Mottled ...
15:16:07 <doy> demonspawn have always been fairly popular though
15:16:35 -!- Spads has joined ##crawl-dev
15:17:26 <dpeg> Harold blubbers, "Mommeee!"
15:20:07 <joosa> Time for a coffee overdose and another stupid death
15:20:09 <Henzell> joosa: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
15:20:14 <joosa> !messages
15:20:16 <Henzell> (1/1) sorear said (14h 15s ago): Hehfiel is eating closing parentheses - is cast into the Abyss! (Xom on turn
15:20:21 <joosa> k
15:21:02 <dpeg> joosa: how many Crawl players does hehfiel usually have?
15:21:25 <joosa> Me and couple of my friends :P
15:21:30 <dpeg> cool :)
15:22:06 <joosa> Some very idle Nethack sessions it seems
15:22:25 <joosa> 200-500 hours :)
15:24:12 <dpeg> joosa: will be prompty resumed in 2012.
15:25:36 <joosa> yep
15:25:54 -!- by has quit [Quit: leaving]
15:26:18 <syllogism> Cryp71c: doesn't look like nighstalker los reduction is working
15:28:38 <syllogism> assuming the code is even in, can't find it
15:35:04 <Cryp71c> syllogism, it was there in my patchfiles, unless it got dropped somehow.
15:35:50 <Cryp71c> yeah, looksl ike the LOS reduction got removed.
15:35:53 <dpeg> Cryp71c: by spent an hour yesterday with your patch, and things happen. Could you look if trunk....
15:35:56 <dpeg> Ah.
15:36:20 <dpeg> Cryp71c: it's probably not intentional, otherwise by would have asked.
15:36:27 <Cryp71c> of course, I understand.
15:36:42 <Cryp71c> Its no big deal, just means nightstalker is WAY OP for the moment :P
15:36:48 <Cryp71c> Free +120 stealth
15:37:21 <felirx> Ice3 is free +10 ac!
15:37:25 -!- Alweth has joined ##crawl-dev
15:39:23 <dpeg> felirx: conditional!
15:40:39 <Cryp71c> yeah, and 120 stealth is a ton :P
15:40:45 <Cryp71c> boots of stealth, which are rare, only give 50
15:41:11 -!- syllogism has quit []
15:50:30 <Cryp71c> sooo Trog gifts axes less often now :(
15:51:53 <Keskitalo> Agh, need to win my HEAM^F so I can try the DS.
15:52:09 <dpeg> Keskitalo: Hiya!
15:52:14 <Keskitalo> Hi!
15:52:19 <dpeg> So many mails on the list.
15:52:47 <Keskitalo> I'll admit I've skipped the difficulty discussion.
15:52:57 <dpeg> Keskitalo: :)
15:52:58 <Keskitalo> So, not that many mails on the list. :]
15:53:22 <dpeg> Keskitalo: several people created data for that discussion, though.
15:54:15 <dpeg> And I wrote about my longterm opinions about the game in a late reply, this could be interesting for you.
15:58:06 <Siber> It probably achived it's goal better than alwin thinks
15:58:28 <Siber> or whatever the nick is
15:59:02 <dpeg> Siber: possibly, yes.
15:59:34 <Keskitalo> Alweth. His latest seemed possibly read-worthy. I have my own opinion on the difficulty - if I have learned to win, it can't be that bad. :P
16:00:12 <dpeg> Keskitalo: do you have an opinion on the steps I proposed?
16:00:23 <dpeg> His latest is also his longest...
16:00:36 <Keskitalo> With the stated-out game design Philosophy, I think Crawl is pretty well off about knowing what it wants to offer.
16:00:44 <Keskitalo> s/Crawl/Stone Soup/
16:00:57 <Siber> DCSS has a nice ring to it
16:01:28 <Keskitalo> I think the deaths come from (a) not yet knowing how to play, (b) hubris and (c) being bored.
16:01:34 <doy> i think that the reason it's fun to most people that play it is *because* of the threat of death
16:01:42 <doy> if players don't die, that fun goes away
16:01:47 <dpeg> doy: sure
16:01:54 <Siber> I think that's the reason why it's fun to most people that it's fun to
16:02:07 <dpeg> doy: but that doesn't answer whether perfect play is too boring etc. etc.
16:02:11 <doy> Siber: sure, but we need to pick a target audience
16:02:13 <Keskitalo> The (c) can be, and has wonderfully been, addressed by SS during its development by reducing tedium. This has in my experience made Crawl a kazillion times better game.
16:02:20 <Siber> and possibly the reason why it's not fun to most of the people who it's not fun to
16:02:21 <doy> dpeg: well, i'm saying that that's irrelevant
16:03:07 <dpeg> doy: I think I agree. In my opinion, there is a danger of being too soft. It is much harder to make the game too hard -- I even enjoyed 4.1.
16:03:36 * Siber wants to be able to win some day ;_;
16:03:41 <dpeg> If wins were spectacularly rare, players would still go for them.
16:03:54 <dpeg> Siber: hurry up, it just gets worse :P
16:03:57 <Keskitalo> The biggest problem for me is that the game, a three-runer, is too long - there are long periods of game (for me) that don't put up resistance.
16:04:23 <dpeg> Keskitalo: yes, we should counter by making the game shorter and tougher.
16:04:25 <Keskitalo> Shortening Lair (and making it more dangerous) and Hive are great steps that have already eliminated a bit about that.
16:04:29 <dpeg> Those mellow phases suck.
16:04:32 <doy> i don't think we should make the game shorter
16:04:36 <dpeg> hehe
16:04:41 <doy> but we should make the game more uniformly interesting
16:04:55 <doy> i think the actual length of a crawl game is good
16:05:01 <Siber> I have a proposal to deal with game length :D
16:05:01 <doy> there are plenty of shorter games out there
16:05:18 <doy> but making a good game that's the length of crawl is difficult
16:05:19 <Keskitalo> I would prefere it a couple hours shorter. :P
16:05:24 -!- nrook has joined ##crawl-dev
16:05:24 <dpeg> doy: There is one thing that's often forgotten: you need some space (depth/whatever) for strategy. Crawl has this, of course, but it's a reason why too small would lose that.
16:05:33 <doy> and i don't think throwing that away is a good thing
16:05:53 <Keskitalo> Making the game more difficult would increase the hours for me, so making it shorter would balance it out. :)
16:06:09 <dpeg> doy: but we agree that four levels of Hive contributed nothing, so scrapping them is surely okay and probably good?
16:06:17 <Keskitalo> Yeah, 10 hours is good, 20 hours is a bit too long. That's just me though, some people can speedrun. :P
16:06:20 -!- by has joined ##crawl-dev
16:06:20 <dpeg> Keskitalo: only if you want to win! :)
16:06:26 <doy> dpeg: well, yeah, because those four levels of hive took about 15 minutes
16:06:27 <doy> (:
16:06:27 <Keskitalo> Hi by!
16:06:32 <by> hi
16:06:39 <dpeg> doy: unfortunately not... they always took longer.
16:06:55 <dpeg> doy: No mental effort, but you still had to press all those keys.
16:07:15 * Madtrixr has been unable to get past Hive...So, it doesn't matter what you do, at least for me.
16:07:41 <dpeg> Keskitalo: well, we (you and me) are not very good players... If the game is reasonably easy winnable for us (in a few hours), it might just be too easy.
16:07:48 <Madtrixr> Exactly.
16:08:39 <Eronarn> dpeg: Earlier I was in the rgrd chatroom. Someone there was arguing that roguelike devs should be among the best players of their game :)
16:08:53 <Madtrixr> Yeah...
16:08:54 <doy> Eronarn: that's kind of a ridiculous opinion
16:08:55 <doy> (:
16:08:56 <Madtrixr> No.
16:08:56 <dpeg> Eronarn: did you oppose that? It's horrid nonsense.
16:09:00 <Keskitalo> dpeg: Sorry, didn't answer your question - I'm looking at your abcd list and I agree with all of it.
16:09:04 <Eronarn> of course (to both)
16:09:09 <by> if nightstalker doesn't reduce LOS, that's because it wasn't in the patch
16:09:14 <dpeg> Keskitalo: cool
16:09:19 <dpeg> Cryp71c: ^
16:09:22 <Madtrixr> game designers seem like they should be the kings of their domain.
16:09:31 <Madtrixr> However, this is usually not the case.
16:09:33 <doy> if the author of a game is the best player of that game, that game is not well designed
16:09:36 <doy> (:
16:09:53 <Keskitalo> Hey btw, Tarn Adams has played/plays Crawl: http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=28410.msg1121510#msg1121510
16:09:54 <dpeg> Madtrixr: should the composer of an orchestral piece be a genius with all 40 instruments?
16:09:55 <Eronarn> doy: Well, it could be well designed but very very complicated and not long enough released for other people to learn its intricacies.
16:10:10 <Madtrixr> now, the Q&A testers are really good, a lot of the times.
16:10:31 <Eronarn> But in general, I would expect people who create games of their own to be pretty average-to-bad players.
16:10:37 <doy> Keskitalo: tarn adams?
16:10:47 <doy> Eronarn: yeah, it's not an absolute rule
16:10:50 <doy> but in general
16:10:51 <doy> (:
16:11:05 <Madtrixr> dpeg: I've heard game developers admit themselves they aren't that good at their games, so I already know it's a fallacy.
16:11:23 <ais523> if the developer of a game is the best at it, it probably needs loads of spoilers which haven't become publicly known yet
16:11:29 <Keskitalo> Isn't Mark Mackey the author of XQuest2? I recall reading how he needed to add more difficulty levels / harder final levels for the game because other players complained it was too easy.
16:11:35 <doy> ais523: right
16:11:43 <Siber> Devs of many games aren't good at their game particularly. Particularly outside of one man projects, where the dev isn't the sole tester
16:12:00 <Madtrixr> Yep.
16:12:09 <Keskitalo> But it wasn't too easy for him. :)
16:12:20 <Siber> The guy in charge of balancing Halo recently gave a talk where he said that being too good at the game would probably be a terrible thing for him
16:12:31 <Keskitalo> doy: Author of DF.
16:12:57 * Madtrixr heard there was a panel at GDC devoted to Halo 3's Sniper Rifle.
16:13:04 <dpeg> Eronarn: so I guess this guy over at the rgrd channel was a lousy developer :)
16:13:35 <Eronarn> no, just a player with unreasonable expectations, i think
16:13:35 <Madtrixr> Like, just how changing the reload time changes the balance pretty significantly.
16:13:38 <doy> Keskitalo: ah, nice
16:14:12 <dpeg> Keskitalo: you wondered whether DF or DC would release first. We won! :) But we also have more developers. And a few crash bugs :(
16:15:32 <Keskitalo> Yeah, yay for winning the race! :)
16:15:44 <doy> did we ever figure out what was going on with those?
16:15:45 <dpeg> by: there was something I wanted to add to the wiki, but forgot. Do you recall?
16:16:31 <Eronarn> dpeg: Treefolk monsters.
16:16:59 <dpeg> damn
16:17:29 <dpeg> by: can you help? I cannot sleep like this.
16:17:55 <Cryp71c> dpeg, DS feedback page.
16:18:07 <dpeg> Cryp71c: that's one thing, yes.
16:18:36 <Eronarn> by the way, dpeg, sorry for pulling a relative disappearing act :) Have been very busy with work, and now looking for a new job too.
16:18:46 <Eronarn> hope to be back for .7 though
16:19:21 <dpeg> Eronarn: good luck! And I hope you'll be back then. Make sure you come over for the tournament.
16:19:38 <doy> Eronarn: most of your topics are being pushed back to 0.8 anyway(:
16:19:41 <Eronarn> oh, definitely :P it has been a while since my last win
16:20:03 <Eronarn> doy: yes, so i hear. not necessarily a bad thing!
16:20:18 <Eronarn> i'm quite satisfied with .6 went, personally
16:21:13 * Madtrixr will actually participate in the tournament, even if I don't win.
16:22:59 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev
16:23:02 <nrook> Madtrixr: last year's tournament precipitated a significant increase in my skill, you might find the same
16:24:03 <dpeg> https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:feedback:demonspawn
16:24:14 <dpeg> Only added Antenna, for time reasons, but I hope others will follow.
16:24:42 <dpeg> by: ah -- perhaps it was the constant GDR!? What to make of it?
16:24:57 <bmh> dpeg: can point me to the wikipage where DS mutations are discussed?
16:25:15 <Ashenzari> Shadow creatures and ballistomycetes (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1229) by st
16:25:15 <dpeg> https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:species:demonspawn
16:26:58 <bmh> The new mutations have made DS much more enjoyable for me. Hopefully I can live long enough to convert to Jiyva
16:35:39 <CIA-43> 03dolorous * rd41d922ee524 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/backgrounds.txt: Fix typo.
16:35:40 <CIA-43> 03dolorous * r0d34c7af9d15 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/species.txt: Add spacing fix.
16:35:42 <CIA-43> 03dolorous * r8031d65070f2 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/species.txt: Fix demonspawn description; in terms of holiness, they're not undead.
16:36:46 <Alweth> I have run into two interesting levels in the first 5 levels of Crawl .6 now. That's probably more than I ran into in the whole time I played .5.2. Might just be luck, but it's nice.
16:37:40 <Siber> there's more interesting things in .6 now
16:37:49 <Alweth> Yeah. It's great.
16:37:55 <Siber> more portal vaults, altars, more vaults in general...
16:38:23 <bmh> Is generic level generation code in lua or C?
16:38:31 <Alweth> Still would like to spend less time killing lone rats, bats, and goblins, but it seems like a clear improvement.
16:38:50 <Alweth> bmh, C, I think.
16:38:54 <Napkin> omg.. another terrible game of nethack
16:39:16 <Napkin> how can people seriously play that game?!
16:39:17 <bmh> crawl is all about killing vermin. You start off killing mundane vermin, and then you exterminate supernatural vermin.
16:39:40 <Napkin> gee
16:39:58 <dpeg> Napkin: Didn't we tell you?
16:40:20 <dpeg> Napkin: just play a DS on CDO 0.7 - that's fun.
16:40:27 <nrook> bmh: definitely in C, I've been playing with a bit
16:40:39 <Napkin> angband is next, dpeg ;)
16:40:42 <nrook> bmh: as far as I can tell, it's all in dungeon.cc
16:40:54 <dpeg> Napkin: are you broadening your roguelike horizons?
16:41:07 <dpeg> nrook: not all, there's also some dungeon generation stuff in lua now
16:41:07 -!- Butch has quit [Quit: leaving]
16:41:08 <Alweth> Napkin: I could never get into NetHack. So it is easy for me to hate and look down on it.
16:41:23 <Napkin> well, trying to play them a bit more seriously, yeah
16:41:29 <doy> personally, the dungeon generation stuff in c is easier to understand
16:41:31 <doy> at the moment anyway
16:41:49 <dpeg> doy: Enne and Darshan were very fond of making it lua.
16:41:57 <doy> the lua code is basically "manipulating the textual representation of the stuff in .des files"
16:42:06 <doy> dpeg: yes, being in lua is good
16:42:09 <dpeg> Or perhaps, have lua be able to do something with it.
16:42:11 <doy> the api could stand to be better though
16:42:12 <doy> (:
16:42:33 <dpeg> doy: I am responsible for some highly convoluted vaults.
16:42:51 <Napkin> oh, nymph - all my stuff gone in a minute.. oh, leprechaun - all my money gone in a minute.. oh, wererat - will turn into werewolf soon
16:42:53 <doy> there shouldn't be any reason to mess with stuff like nsubst and things like that when writing lua dungeon generation code
16:43:00 <doy> because... you're using an actual programming language
16:43:13 <dpeg> Napkin: these are at least tactical challenges... even if they're not ideal.
16:43:14 <Napkin> playing nethack feels like being jajabings
16:44:17 <nrook> nethack is a glorious trainwreck. I don't think I could play it any more, but it still holds a special place in my heart
16:45:02 <Napkin> well, i could probably read 2 pages of wiki to understand some tactical way to deal with them
16:45:09 <dpeg> nrook: I learned so much from NH about design.
16:45:24 <dpeg> Napkin: leprechauns are easy: drop your gold.
16:45:45 <Napkin> and they don't pick it up?
16:46:03 <Napkin> that's even worse than I expected then :D
16:46:07 <dpeg> hehe
16:46:16 <dpeg> Napkin: they do, but it you put it away, you can attack them and they won't blink.
16:46:33 <Cryp71c> dpeg, I see a brilliant mutation set coming up before me: Spiny, Ice (the one that does dmg to those who attack you), regen, and robust.
16:46:41 <Cryp71c> (not this game, ofc, but ideally)
16:47:09 <Napkin> what to do against wererat? just hope not being bitten?
16:47:17 <Xiberia> Cryp71c, and death's door!
16:47:25 <dpeg> Spiny and Ice II should exclude each other
16:47:33 <Napkin> or is it because of "You are lucky!  Full moon tonight."?
16:47:39 <dpeg> Napkin: throw something at it?
16:47:39 <doy> Napkin: wear a cloak
16:47:40 <doy> (:
16:47:46 <doy> or mithril armor
16:47:59 <dpeg> Napkin: in NH, there's also always Elbereth, but I never know when to use because I have never used it.
16:48:00 <Napkin> rofl - right.. they are lying around like everywhere
16:48:17 <doy> Napkin: dwarven cloaks are all over the mines
16:48:26 <doy> and they cut your chances of getting lycanthropy by like 2/3
16:48:55 <Napkin> where ever those mines are - wererat got me twice earlier
16:49:06 <doy> mines are d:2-4 somewhere
16:49:33 <dpeg> Today, greensnark mumbled about 3.5 :) Well, he said that paxed mentioned it.
16:50:13 <Napkin> no, nethack is just ridiculous
16:50:33 <dpeg> paxed: around?
16:50:37 <dpeg> We're curious :)
16:50:52 <Napkin> but as long as ixtli doesn't finish his port - i'm stuck with inethack on my phone :-/
16:51:41 <dpeg> time to sleep
16:51:42 <Napkin> which i find, btw, more comfortable to navigate than then console version.
16:51:52 <Napkin> dito
16:51:53 <nrook> "Found eighteen escape hatches on the floor." Nice that crawl handles this gracefully :)
16:51:54 <Napkin> g'night
16:51:57 <nrook> g'night
16:51:59 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: cheers]
16:52:57 <ixtli> Napkin: I'm working im working.
16:53:22 <Napkin> \o/
16:53:35 <ixtli> but actually the only reason im awake at 7am right now is because I had to take my drunk friend home last night and set alarms on his computer because he lost his phone and has his first day of work today.
16:53:36 <Napkin> take your time - i'm just kidding :)
16:53:38 <ixtli> In about two hours.
16:53:53 <Napkin> ouch
16:53:55 <ixtli> So I started all of his chat clients and messaged them all a billion times.
16:54:05 <ixtli> Apparently his phone ended up in his shoe though.
16:54:06 <ixtli> Somehow.
16:54:15 <Napkin> better than lost ;)
16:54:16 <ixtli> Anyway I'm going to sleep.  'Night!
16:54:21 <Napkin> g'night :)
16:55:24 <Cryp71c> Anyone know dolorous's email off hand?
16:56:00 <Napkin> gee.. now i am a "h" instead of an "@"? nethack is driving me crazy
16:57:48 <Alweth> I need greensnark to tell me what I did wrong in my last game.
16:58:08 <doy> !lg alweth
16:58:09 <Henzell> 30. Alweth the Summoner (L6 KeSu), blasted by an orc priest (divine providence) on D:4 on 2010-03-31, with 632 points after 7519 turns and 1:35:55.
16:58:18 <doy> !tv alweth
16:58:18 <Henzell> 30. Alweth, XL6 KeSu, T:7519 requested for FooTV.
16:58:27 <Alweth> doy: thanks
17:00:45 <Cryp71c> ??doloorous
17:00:45 <Henzell> I don't have a page labeled doloorous in my learndb.
17:00:48 <Cryp71c> ??dolorous
17:00:48 <Henzell> I don't have a page labeled dolorous in my learndb.
17:01:17 -!- by has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
17:01:30 <Cryp71c> !tell dpeg What's dolorous' email address?
17:01:35 <Henzell> Cryp71c: OK, I'll let dpeg know.
17:01:48 <doy> Alweth: not running when you had the chance
17:01:58 <Alweth> Keep watching.
17:03:13 <doy> well, trying to use spammals to keep an orc priest away is wasting turns
17:03:22 <doy> which you could have used to keep running
17:03:40 <doy> also, spammals would have done a much better job of keeping the hippogriff away
17:03:44 <Alweth> but I needed them to block him in the tunnel so I could get away
17:03:45 <doy> since it's melee-only
17:03:52 <Alweth> doy: good point
17:04:18 <doy> Alweth: getting out of los of the priest is first priority
17:04:22 <Alweth> That was tough, you didn't see it, but there was an Ogre with Menkaur ealier.
17:04:42 <doy> but yeah, avoiding having to walk around with 7hp in the first place would have helped too
17:05:12 <doy> you were fighting menkaure in a very restricted way with blork cutting off one of your escape routes
17:05:27 <Ashenzari> crash upon drinking a potion of mutation (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1230) by st
17:05:29 -!- LordSlothW has joined ##crawl-dev
17:05:38 <doy> i'd probably have tossed up some spammals and ran at that point, since menkaure is slow
17:05:45 <doy> and come back to pick them off one at a time
17:05:53 <LordSlothW> Heyo, any ideas for a feature request regarding http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?noseen=0&threadid=3285755&pagenumber=4#post374672162
17:05:57 <Cryp71c> anyone here know dolorou's email address?
17:06:08 <doy> kenku summoners are too fragile to be messing around like that
17:06:09 <LordSlothW> Or whether its even worth bothering with?
17:06:21 <LordSlothW> quote: / The orc priest prays to Beogh / The orc priest is healed somehwat / quote: / You kill the orc priest! / Beogh appreciates your killing of a heretic priest
17:06:22 <doy> LordSlothW: i'd be able to read that if somethingawful would let me
17:06:25 <doy> unfortunatley...
17:06:32 <LordSlothW> There's the entire jist of it
17:07:06 <LordSlothW> I do like Tuxedo Catfish's response: He lost the fight, obviously he was a heretic
17:07:38 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:08:56 <LordSlothW> Some simple flavor dialogue - "The orc priest challenges your divinity through combat", except better fleshed out might work, if it's worth asecond thought, and add flavor
17:09:23 <LordSlothW> Something similar could be adapted to divine wraths.
17:10:29 <Keskitalo> Obviously the priest's just praying to false Beogh (who is answering)
17:10:42 <Alweth> doy: I wasn't inteding to fight Menkaur. He had been at the bottom of the previous stairs I went down, along with an Ogre and a few other problematic monsters, so I had gone down another stair, started fighting Blork, and Menkaur came at me from behind. For whatever reason, Menkaur was moving very fast, as I recall.
17:10:47 <bmh> Beogh's favored combatant won
17:10:59 <bmh> his favor is decided through combat ;-)
17:11:10 <doy> Alweth: ah, yeah, he does have haste
17:11:26 <doy> in any case, fighting them both coming from the same direction would have been a more favorable position
17:11:37 <doy> and fighting blork in an already explored area would have helped too
17:12:13 <doy> if there weren't any unexplored areas, well, that's why levels have three sets of staircases
17:12:14 <Alweth> Probably I should have kept the stairs at my back and/or lured Blork up them.
17:12:23 <Alweth> That was the second.
17:12:31 <bmh> I recall seeing calls to make the hunger timer stricter. Perhaps accelerate hunger when you're injured (i.e. healing)?
17:12:43 <Keskitalo> I can't recall having ever died in a way that I couldn't have played better; this includes a giant frog on D:1. Not sure if I'd won, but I certainly could have played better.
17:12:47 <Alweth> The first, I thought, was being guarded by Menkaur and/or an ogre and/or giant scorpion.
17:13:48 <Keskitalo> bmh: Kind of happens already, as you have to waste turns.
17:14:00 <Alweth> I figured, perhaps wrongly, if the level already has an Ogre and Menkaur runnig around, I should eliminate a lone Blork while I had the chance.
17:14:46 <doy> Keskitalo: right, as long as you learn from it
17:14:46 <doy> (:
17:14:56 <Alweth> On the bright side. 20th on the server is probably a new record for me.
17:17:26 <Alweth> doy: One of my problems is that, often, by the time I run into something again, it's been so long I can't really remember much useful information.
17:17:37 <doy> Alweth: practice!
17:17:38 <doy> (:
17:17:53 <Alweth> Another bright side is that it's one of the first times I died with nothing in my inventory that could save me.
17:18:18 <Alweth> doy: I think I just need to play more frequently.
17:18:57 <Twinge> Alweth: That just means you didn't optimally sue what could've saved you earlier and wasted it :D
17:19:54 <Alweth> Twinge: That's probably true of every player every time they die in that situation.
17:20:16 <doy> Alweth: probably!
17:20:41 <doy> resource management is a pretty big part of the game
17:20:53 <joosa> !lg xl>19 s=ktyp
17:20:54 <Henzell> 14 games for joosa (xl>19): 8x beam, 4x mon, 1x stupidity, 1x winning
17:21:06 <Alweth> Twinge: But barring that general truism, I stand by my consumable savables that game.
17:21:12 <joosa> !lg xl>19 s=ckiller
17:21:12 <Henzell> 14 games for joosa (xl>19): 1x a stone giant, 1x an orb of fire, 1x a deep elf master archer, 1x a titan, 1x an acid blob, 1x a reaper, 1x stupidity, 1x winning, 1x a hellion, 1x a Fiend, 1x a deep elf annihilator, 1x a yaktaur captain, 1x an ancient lich, 1x a naga mage
17:21:45 <Alweth> I got 1 scroll of blink, 1 of teleport, 6 potions of healing...
17:21:52 <Alweth> I should have used my wand of slow.
17:22:02 <Alweth> Darn.
17:22:15 <joosa> I have similar problem, I end up dying with 3453 blinking scrolls and other escape items
17:22:42 <Alweth> My last game I died with an unused wand os disintegrate in my inventory
17:22:47 <Alweth> Well, I had used it once.
17:23:00 <Alweth> Too good effect too.
17:23:43 <due> second plus in blowguns does nothing
17:23:45 <due> It really should go
17:24:20 <doy> maybe second plus in all ranged weapons should go
17:24:24 <Alweth> due: That makes sense, but could lead to confusion.
17:24:38 <Alweth> doy: That's a less confusing idea, I think.
17:24:39 <doy> ranged stuff could use a nerf
17:24:47 <due> Hence, it should go.
17:24:50 <Alweth> However, the more consistent things like that can be, the better.
17:25:23 <Keskitalo> Yeah, I'm rocking the HEAM so ranged combat is obviously too good. :)
17:25:26 <Keskitalo> Hi due!
17:25:35 <due> Keskitalo: I don't thinkso
17:25:42 <joosa> !lg class=AM
17:25:43 <Henzell> 3. joosa the Shooter (L6 DSAM), slain by Pikel (a +0,+2 whip of flaming) on D:4 on 2010-02-08, with 576 points after 5023 turns and 0:22:57.
17:25:58 <joosa> !hs class=AM
17:25:58 <Henzell> 3. joosa the Shooter (L6 DSAM), slain by Pikel (a +0,+2 whip of flaming) on D:4 on 2010-02-08, with 576 points after 5023 turns and 0:22:57.
17:26:06 <joosa> really
17:26:17 <Alweth> !lg * class=AM max=dl
17:26:18 <Henzell> Unknown selector: dl
17:26:24 <Alweth> !lg * class=AM max=level
17:26:28 <Henzell> Unknown selector: level
17:26:31 <due> I think ranged combat is now as viable as spellcasting.
17:26:32 <doy> !lg * class=am max=depth
17:26:32 <joosa> !lg char=MiAM
17:26:34 <Henzell> Unknown selector: depth
17:26:34 <Henzell> No games for joosa (char=MiAM).
17:26:37 <Alweth> ty
17:26:46 <doy> !lg * class=am max=place
17:26:58 <Henzell> 3750. heteroy the Deadly Accurate (L23 TrAM), worshipper of Sif Muna, slain by an Orb Guardian on Zot:5 on 2009-11-26, with 414194 points after 73561 turns and 7:57:01.
17:27:08 <joosa> Deadly Accurate :)
17:27:18 <doy> !lg * class=am max=xl
17:27:18 <Henzell> 3750. valrus the Hawkeye (L27 OgAM), worshipper of Yredelemnul, escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2009-12-31, with 1262219 points after 118021 turns and 17:52:34.
17:27:32 <doy> !lg * class=am ktyp=winning / class=am
17:27:33 <Henzell> 10/10 games for * (class=am ktyp=winning): N=10/10 (100.00%)
17:27:40 <doy> !lg * class=am ktyp=winning / *
17:27:40 <Henzell> Malformed argument: *
17:27:53 <doy> !lg * ktyp=winning / class=am
17:27:53 <Henzell> 10/2390 games for * (ktyp=winning): N=10/2390 (0.42%)
17:27:57 <doy> no
17:28:03 <doy> maybe?
17:28:10 <doy> all this new syntax is confusing
17:28:11 <doy> (:
17:28:37 <Alweth> Seems right. Still above the actual average, I think.
17:28:41 <doy> !lg * ktyp=winning
17:28:44 <Henzell> 2390. Pacra the Swordmaster (L27 HaSt), worshipper of Okawaru, escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2010-03-31, with 1314202 points after 145583 turns and 9:45:40.
17:28:54 <doy> nope, that's the number of wins which were am
17:28:57 <Keskitalo> due: Conjurers at least need to consider range. :) You played a slinger, did you pick Fedhas?
17:29:07 <due> No, Trog.
17:29:13 <Alweth> I thought that's what you wanted.
17:29:15 <doy> !gamesby * class=am
17:29:16 <Henzell> * (class=am) has played 3750 games, between 20091115 and 20100331, won 10 (0.3%), high score 8699361, total score 28549406, total turns 7470473, total time 751:14:52.
17:29:26 <Keskitalo> due: Wow! Was it good?
17:29:27 <doy> 10/3750 was what i was looking for
17:29:30 <due> !whereis
17:29:42 <Keskitalo> Does Trog gift launchers/ammo?
17:29:44 <Henzell> bookofjude the Slingshot (L17 HaHu), a worshipper of Trog, last saved on D:20 on 2010-03-31 after 35718 turns.
17:29:49 <due> Keskitalo: Yes :)
17:29:55 <Keskitalo> Nice. :)
17:31:28 -!- Alweth has quit [Quit: Killed by Blork and Menkaur reincarnated as a hippogriff and an orc priest.]
17:31:36 <Keskitalo> !apt HE skill=Bows
17:31:36 <Henzell> HE (SK_BOWS)=60!
17:32:07 <Keskitalo> I definitely feel that the launcher skill leveled too fast (been at 27 for a long time), but that might contribute to that feeling. :)
17:32:45 <due> !apt ha skill=slings
17:32:46 <Henzell> Ha (SK_SLINGS)=50!
17:32:51 <due> I'm at 25 or so?
17:33:13 <Keskitalo> @whereis
17:33:14 <Gretell> No where information for Keskitalo.
17:33:17 <Keskitalo> @whereis evktalo
17:33:17 <Gretell> evktalo the Master Archer (L21 HEAM), a worshipper of Fedhas, saved on Lair:2 on 2010-03-31 after 125781 turns.
17:33:49 <Keskitalo> Heh, it'll start calling me a farmer at this rate.
17:34:15 <Keskitalo> I'm swimming in arrows, Elf gives a lot.
17:36:10 <due> Sling bullets are slightly more difficult to come by :)
17:37:52 <Keskitalo> Yeah. Perhaps we need monsters that use them to compensate. :P
17:38:24 -!- pointless_ has joined ##crawl-dev
17:46:39 -!- LordSlothW has left ##crawl-dev
17:57:44 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:07:26 -!- mr0t has joined ##crawl-dev
18:16:18 <due> So are we doing anything for April fools?
18:16:49 <due> I was thinking we should announce, to coincide with the release of 0.6, a new tiles client that allows for online play via CAO and CDO.
18:18:56 <due> Anyone?
18:24:10 <Xiberia> i read that without reading <+due> So are we doing anything for April fools? first
18:24:15 <Xiberia> got momentarily excited
18:24:31 <due> I think it's a great idea myself.
18:24:33 <due> doy?
18:24:39 <bmh> should zot traps be able to confuse you if you're wearing amulet of clarity?
18:27:46 -!- Fangorn has joined ##crawl-dev
18:35:51 -!- mr0t has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.9/20100315083431]]
18:36:56 <Mu_> too reasonable for an april fool, probably just make a bunch of people disappointed :p
18:37:57 <Eronarn> due: Other-language support for Crawl. Of course, only partially translated: monster glyphs in cyrillic, japanese, etc. but not menus.
18:49:43 <bmh> How about announcing a Gnomish Mine branch?
18:49:53 <bmh> and gaining mutations from eating corpses
18:52:15 <sorear> For april fools '09, we were going to release Angband 3.2.0 with the Crawl pas-de-faq
18:52:26 <sorear> no permanent statgain, etc
18:52:35 <sorear> but it never happened :(
18:53:57 <bmh> pas-de-faq?
19:02:53 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev
19:28:45 <stabwound-> is there going to be a 0.6.1?
19:28:52 -!- stabwound- is now known as stabwound
19:30:00 -!- Textmode has quit [Quit: Over the ages, man has been certain of a great many things. some of these things were even true.]
19:31:02 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
19:33:55 <stabwound> [19:17:07] <due> I was thinking we should announce, to coincide with the release of 0.6, a new tiles client that allows for online play via CAO and CDO.
19:34:00 <stabwound> that's super cruel :P
19:34:19 <stabwound> that would be awesome if it were real though
19:37:43 <doy> stabwound: yeah, at some point
19:37:56 <doy> there are a couple of crash bugs that we're trying to track down first
19:43:21 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.]
19:55:19 <bmh> How was the parameterization for Jiyva stat shuffling decided?
19:56:22 <Ashenzari> Jellies in level 1 zoo starting area (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1231) by tromboneandrew
19:59:10 -!- Enne has joined ##crawl-dev
20:12:51 -!- nrook has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
20:17:05 <bmh> I'm writing some code to simulate Jiyva stat shuffling.
20:18:50 <felirx> Enne: is there a considerate performance hit for using multiple fontbuffers etc?
20:19:03 <Enne> No, why?
20:19:30 <felirx> Generalizing the menu code
20:24:28 <felirx> I'm thinking something along this
20:24:29 <felirx> http://www.student.oulu.fi/~jannelah/crawl/menu_classdiag.png
20:33:38 <felirx> mainly, each object would know how it's rendered (holds all its fontbuffers etc) and the CRTRegion will only pass input and render commands down
20:34:01 <felirx> that way, I don't have to double implement when new type of items are desired
20:34:47 <Enne> That sounds pretty reasonable.  Are you generalizing all menu types? Like scrollable, and inventory too?
20:35:09 <felirx> eventually that would be the idea
20:35:15 <felirx> the inventory would be inherited from MenuObject
20:35:22 <felirx> and could just be attached to CRTRegion
20:36:59 <felirx> now it's just a question of should each MenuObject know how the items are rendered
20:37:07 <felirx> or should the items themselves know how they are rendered
20:37:31 <felirx> if you go with the items, you can inherit all sorts of items with little extra effort
20:37:53 <felirx> but that would mean each item would hold its own fontbuffers etc
20:38:56 <Enne> A fontbuffer is just a pointer to a font texture and an array of vertices to hold any characters you've added to it.
20:39:30 <felirx> so I think i'll go with the even more general approach tehn
20:39:53 <felirx> and add an abstract MenuItem class that can be inherited for all sorts of itesm
20:39:54 <bmh> What's the difference between base_statp and max_statp?
20:45:38 <due> Do I have permission to do an April 1st joke for crawl?
20:45:41 <due> Hi, Enne!
20:45:46 <due> Enne: I was going to announce server support for tiles. :)
20:45:56 <Enne> Well played.  :)
20:46:08 <due> I think I'll just do it. :)
20:46:10 <Enne> If only we had thought about this earlier.  We could have added a menu option for it or something.
20:46:16 <due> That would've been awesome.
20:46:21 <due> It just crossed my mind now.
20:48:26 <due> Okay, I'll start writing the blog post.
20:53:19 <Eronarn> due: make sure to photoshop up some pics
20:53:31 <due> I'm not sure I'll have time for that.
20:54:37 <Eronarn> if you get me some source images i can do something, like say add a CAO scoreboard tab to the pane inventory's in
20:54:38 -!- Vandal has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
20:58:11 <Enne> Maybe put some "connecting to IP..." etc... messages in the message window?
20:58:27 <Enne> A scoreboard tab might be subtle?
20:59:16 -!- sorear has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:59:20 <Enne> The screenshot page looks like it got updated recently: http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/screenshots
20:59:35 -!- sorear has joined ##crawl-dev
20:59:40 <felirx> you could take the mockup menu and add an entry there
21:00:03 <Eronarn> Enne: Oh I have some great ideas ;)
21:00:12 <Eronarn> "Share this chardump on Twitter"
21:00:24 <Enne> !!!
21:00:30 -!- Vandal has joined ##crawl-dev
21:00:33 <Eronarn> Or an integrated IRC client with PM open to Henzell
21:00:46 <Enne> Make sure you add a Facebook connect link somewhere.  ;)
21:00:53 <Eronarn> snrrkk
21:01:17 <Eronarn> i am going to link this to my crawl-playing friend and she is going to yell at me when she finds out it's not real
21:01:42 <due> :)
21:01:56 -!- eith has quit []
21:05:04 <Madtrixr> Did you guys make a crawl AF joke? :P
21:05:07 <bmh> I'm a troll in real life. Every day is April 1st for me.
21:06:47 <due> Okay, let's see
21:06:51 <Eronarn> Hmm
21:07:00 <Eronarn> What font is that, anyways
21:07:04 <Eronarn> I can't find anything that matches it
21:07:30 <Enne> Vera and VeraMono.
21:07:36 * bmh wonders how he should display Jiyva stat shuffle statistics
21:07:42 <Enne> http://www.dafont.com/bitstream-vera-mono.font
21:07:48 <Eronarn> Ah, thanks
21:07:57 <Enne> I wrote the rasterization, so the kerning might be wrong in Crawl.  *blush*
21:08:03 <Eronarn> How do I go install that in Ubuntu, I'm new to it
21:08:27 <Eronarn> Oh, nevermind
21:08:31 <bmh> aptitude...
21:09:45 <Eronarn> wow, that made my computer absolutely *thrash* for some reason (installing it via gui)
21:10:26 <doy> probably rebuilding font caches and stuff
21:12:57 <due> While there has been a lot of public development on Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup, resulting in the massive upsurge of new features in the recent release of 0.6, our Tiles developers as well as the public server administrators have been working day and night behind closed doors on a huge wish-list item: the ability to play crawl online, at servers such as crawl.akrasiac.org and crawl.develaz.org, but using the Tiles interface instead of ASCII.
21:13:03 <due> How does that sound for a first paragraph?
21:13:15 <Enne> Excellent.  :)
21:13:36 <due> Needs grammar-fixed.
21:15:23 <bmh> Looking into my crystal ball: 6 months from now you guys will release tiles-over-the-wire.
21:15:30 <Eronarn> Great, got it matched
21:15:37 <Enne> :)
21:15:40 <Eronarn> How long have I got to fiddle before you want to have this live, due?
21:15:50 <Enne> I keep trying to sell violetj on the idea of implementing it.
21:16:29 <bmh> you know... it couldn't be that hard to do in javascript
21:16:55 <doy> bmh: the javascript wouldn't be the hard part
21:17:13 <doy> it still has to communicate with a crawl binary somewhere
21:17:25 <bmh> sure, it telnets into CAO
21:17:28 <due> Eronarn: I've got the first paragraph going.
21:17:38 <due> bmh: It needs more information than what is accessible via the regular CAO binaries.
21:17:42 <bmh> so we have a java telnet client..
21:18:01 * bmh isn't volunteering ;-)
21:18:46 <doy> bmh: well, console games in a javascript window wouldn't be incredibly hard
21:18:56 <doy> napkin had something mostly working at one point
21:19:06 <doy> but the whole point is tiles
21:19:06 <doy> (:
21:19:12 <Eronarn> is the release going to be 0.6.0 or will it have dashes after it
21:19:26 <due> 0.6.0-t?
21:19:39 <bmh> 1.0.0?
21:19:43 <Eronarn> heh
21:19:48 <bmh> or will that be for next year?
21:20:04 <due> pastebin.ca is gone :o
21:20:17 <due> http://pastebin.com/CktveEdY
21:20:20 <bmh> will 1.0.x come after 0.9.y?
21:20:21 <due> Okay, any comments on that?
21:20:34 <doy> due: cpan -i App::Nopaste
21:20:35 <doy> (:
21:20:37 <due> Eronarn: Ready for screenshots.
21:20:43 <due> doy: I couldn't work out how to get it going from gvim.
21:21:32 <doy> due: http://github.com/doy/conf/blob/master/vimrc#L421
21:24:14 <elly> giiiiiiithub <3
21:24:27 <Eronarn> due: I have one done so far
21:24:45 <Eronarn> http://i41.tinypic.com/2cf7ecm.png
21:24:51 <doy> github is pretty great (except for their uptime)
21:25:57 <Eronarn> I can do a real good one in about 10 minutes or so
21:28:22 -!- Enne has quit [Quit: zzz]
21:29:39 <due> Eronarn: *excellent*.
21:30:01 <due> Eronarn: I'm not in any hurry, I can't post it for another few hours yet anyway.
21:31:02 <due> I need to go home and make lunch, so back in twenty.
21:31:10 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev
21:33:21 <bmh> http://bhickey.net/JiyvaShuffle.png
21:34:11 <bmh> That's what the distribution of your stats will look like after arbitrarily much stat shuffling, assuming the sum of your stats began life at 42. Green is the "favored" stat
21:35:15 <Eronarn> yeh, jiyva shuffling is annoying, ain't it? :)
21:36:27 <bmh> My Spriggan Assassin has Str 13 / Int 16 / Dex 13. I'm inclined to agree.
21:42:23 -!- Fangorn has quit [Quit: Page closed]
21:45:24 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev
21:47:29 <sorear> bmh: What algorithm did you use for that?  I could use a general routine for fixed points of random processes
21:47:54 <bmh> sorear: I reimplemented the Jiyva stat shuffle code in haskell and ran a few thousand simulations
21:48:22 <sorear> oh, simulations
21:48:33 <sorear> here and I was expecting something clever with eigenvectors
21:48:43 <bmh> simulations are the way to go
21:49:06 <bmh> Love the monte carlo
21:51:17 <doy> could probably stand to use a different type of graph for that
21:51:43 <doy> considering the sum of the frequencies for a given attribute value isn't really meaningful
21:51:54 <bmh> fair
21:52:25 <bmh> my PI complains that I'm not a viz guy ;-)
21:53:58 <bmh> doy: I'll give you a nicer plot.
21:53:59 <doy> if you know any amount of perl, i highly recommend Chart::Clicker
21:54:03 <doy> it makes really pretty graphs
21:54:04 <doy> (:
21:54:42 <bmh> I know about 6 lines of perl. I'm primarily a C, C++, Scheme, Python, Haskell, R, JavaScript hacker
21:54:45 <bmh> Perl is on the list
21:54:58 <due> Eronarn: how goes the screenshots?
21:55:30 <Eronarn> another one almost done
21:55:56 <sorear> PI?
21:56:30 <bmh> principle investigator. I'm a labrat
21:57:26 <due> Eronarn: excellent
21:59:00 <doy> i'm primarily a perl, c, c++, lua, ocaml hacker
21:59:05 <doy> although i'm learning javascript
21:59:06 <doy> (:
22:00:08 <Eronarn> hmm
22:00:13 <Eronarn> does dcss have any logo
22:00:42 <bmh> doy: ocaml rocks.
22:00:50 <bmh> it's like haskell but without horrendous performance issues
22:00:54 <doy> i agree!
22:01:10 <doy> Eronarn: there's the splash screen, and the sigmund/scythe website background image
22:01:32 <bmh> neat. Jiyva is giving me slimes even though I'm Abyssed
22:02:44 <Eronarn> that's too pale sadly
22:02:47 <Eronarn> know what font it was made with?
22:03:44 <Eronarn> oh, nm
22:03:47 <Eronarn> it's courier new
22:03:55 <Eronarn> "like all good things in life"
22:04:15 <due> Eronarn: yes
22:04:33 <due> Eronarn: there's a logo of a soup pot for the tiles executable
22:04:37 <due> I don't know where it lives though
22:11:43 <due> Eronarn: Let me know when you have a second one and I'll put this up.
22:13:37 <Eronarn> I actually just finished it
22:13:51 <bmh> YASD: I hit "L" instead of "M"
22:13:59 <Eronarn> http://i44.tinypic.com/2qb5fsj.png
22:14:23 <doy> hahaha
22:14:43 <Eronarn> oh wait
22:14:46 <Eronarn> the k - 2 scrolls needs to not be there
22:14:47 <Eronarn> one ec
22:15:59 <Eronarn> http://i40.tinypic.com/4uum14.jpg that's better
22:16:04 <bmh> That was probably my most frustrating death ever.
22:16:20 <greensnark> So apparently the cao CPU pegging bug is my fault as is traditional
22:16:26 <doy> (:
22:16:43 <doy> what was the problem?
22:16:49 <CIA-43> 03greensnark * rc3b0725b2671 10/crawl-ref/source/crash-u.cc: Don't try to handle SIGALRM in crash handler.
22:16:52 <greensnark> crash dump handler trying to handle SIGALRM
22:17:03 <due> <3
22:17:20 <doy> heh
22:17:26 <doy> what do we use SIGALRM for?
22:17:26 <bmh> oh... I got a crash earlier today on CDO
22:17:45 <bmh> I was in Slime:6 as a Jiyva worshipper and the slimes were gobbling up the vault loot and bam, it crashed
22:18:21 <greensnark> doy: If for some reason Crawl doesn't go away after getting HUP
22:18:26 <doy> ah, right
22:18:34 <due> Should I be warning anyone else before I do this?
22:18:54 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: bmh]
22:19:05 <greensnark> due: It might be rather unkind to the players who are really waiting for it :)
22:19:10 <doy> so have there been any other critical bug reports?
22:19:16 <due> greensnark: "Look at the calendar."
22:19:18 <greensnark> doy: A few crashes :)
22:19:32 <doy> ah, separate issues?
22:19:38 <greensnark> due: Yes, but something a little less raising-hopes-to-dash-them :)
22:19:49 <greensnark> I mean something funny!
22:19:49 <stabwound> will 0.6.1 include this random energy change? :P
22:19:54 <greensnark> Like the proposed merger of Python and Perl
22:19:58 <due> greensnark: Aw, you don't want me to do it?
22:19:58 <doy> stabwound: yes
22:19:59 <greensnark> Rather than cruel :)
22:19:59 <doy> (:
22:20:06 <stabwound> although I really don't understand exactly what the change is :P
22:20:12 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
22:20:19 <due> I'll add some stupid stuff to the post.
22:20:36 <greensnark> due: Ok, go for it :)
22:20:38 <doy> i liked the facebook image though
22:20:39 <doy> (:
22:20:41 <due> Yeah
22:20:48 <greensnark> Tiles players have earned their suffering anyway :)
22:20:49 <doy> maybe "crawl social media integration"
22:20:57 <greensnark> doy: <3
22:21:03 <doy> that might have more funny aspects to it
22:21:04 <doy> (:
22:21:06 <greensnark> Your character automatically gets a facebook page
22:21:11 <stabwound> seriously though, I'd probably play tiles if it were possible on CAO
22:21:13 <stabwound> heh
22:21:27 <doy> stabwound: you aren't the only one
22:21:28 <doy> (:
22:21:55 <Eronarn> the worst part about working on these images is knowing that these features won't actually exist :)
22:22:53 <Eronarn> http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/judas.png hahaha okay which of you took this one
22:23:06 <doy> i was wondering about that too
22:23:07 <doy> (:
22:23:30 <due> I think that was Johanna
22:24:34 <sorear> greensnark: How unfortunate are we talking
22:25:47 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev
22:39:55 <due> I need more stupid claims
22:40:02 <due> I've got
22:40:07 <due> Social media interaction: link your character's status to your Facebook page, transmit milestones to your Twitter!
22:40:23 <due> Oh, I know, removal of instant death.
22:40:33 <greensnark> due: nao actually does the Twitter thing for NH
22:40:40 <stabwound> heh
22:41:05 <sorear> doy added Twitter support to TAEB a while ago
22:41:09 <sorear> we could reuse that
22:41:24 <due> Shops now buy items!
22:41:54 <greensnark> Inscribing "Galadriel" on your weapon causes monsters to flee
22:42:16 <doy> i think it'll be funnier if we stick to a theme
22:42:28 <due> Such as?
22:42:30 <Eronarn> Cloud Soup
22:42:32 <greensnark> Yeah, the social media thing is best
22:42:36 <due> I've got
22:42:45 <greensnark> Just put in lots of details of how it works
22:42:50 <doy> due: was talking to greensnark
22:42:51 <doy> (:
22:43:10 <due> <li>Social media interaction: link your character's status to your Facebook page, transmit milestones to your Twitter!</li> <li>For a cost in either experience, skill levels, or gold, you can resurrect a character.</li> <li>Shops now purchase as well as sell items. Get rid of all that unused armour and weapons!</li>
22:43:17 <greensnark> I'm just NH bashing to pass time here :P
22:43:34 <due> I was debating putting something about poisoned weapons poisoning corpses, and the ability to cook chunks.
22:43:39 <due> That might be a bit much though.
22:43:40 <Eronarn> hhahah
22:43:43 <doy> due: instead of shops purchasing items, buying and selling items on ebay or something
22:43:46 <doy> social!
22:43:52 <due> Oooh.
22:44:03 <greensnark> due: And create a Facebook profile as an example you can link to!
22:44:07 <Eronarn> doy: marketplace allowing you to buy items with other in-game currencies such as WoW gold or EVE ISK
22:44:35 <due> doy: Much better.
22:45:07 <Eronarn> all characters begin play with a smartphone (cannot be used with blade hands)
22:45:57 <doy> hacking twitter support into henzell probably wouldn't be all that bad
22:46:30 <greensnark> !lg * 0.6 place=Snake|Shoals|Swamp s=br
22:46:30 <Henzell> 23 games for * (0.6 place=Snake|Shoals|Swamp): 13x Snake, 6x Shoals, 4x Swamp
22:46:32 <greensnark> :(
22:46:51 <sorear> twitter in henzell would be quite easy
22:46:58 <due> It'd be cool.
22:47:04 <Eronarn> yeah, twitter has a pretty full API and lots of people have made stuff for it already that do similar things
22:47:51 <Eronarn> an Orb of Zot account could be fun
22:48:05 <Eronarn> (i wonder if you could ask it questions like a magic 8 ball)
22:56:18 <Madtrixr> that'd be sweet.
23:00:00 <paxed> !tell dpeg at 1 in the thursday morning? no, i'm not around.
23:00:00 <Henzell> paxed: OK, I'll let dpeg know.
23:00:19 <due> Okay, back to look at stuff
23:02:07 <due> Clickable character images: each click gives you a character point, and for a thousand character points, you can resurrect that character when it dies.
23:02:11 <due> Disgusting, isn't it?
23:02:27 <Eronarn> due: you should have it be based on other players' votes for you
23:02:39 <Eronarn> it's like digg
23:02:44 <Eronarn> if they don't like your character, they bury it
23:03:13 <due> I'm basing it on the annoying dragon things that always pop up on my LiveJournal friends page.
23:03:19 <due> "Please click the egg to make it hatch!"
23:03:46 <due> <li>You can now sell your unwanted or unused armour and weapons on eBay and etsy! You can also purchase armour and weapons from other players and import it into your game.</li>
23:03:53 <Eronarn> hahah YES.
23:05:33 -!- greensnark has quit [Quit: leaving]
23:06:00 <Twinge> These almost sound like too many things for one year's 4/1 :)
23:06:24 <Madtrixr> SOunds like Diablo almost.
23:10:24 <due> http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=1112&preview=true
23:10:27 <due> Can anyone see that?
23:11:05 <due> Eronarn?
23:11:06 <due> doy?
23:11:37 <Eronarn> no
23:28:14 <due> Okay, sent an email about it
23:31:25 <due> Training, back later.
23:34:04 -!- neunon has joined ##crawl-dev
23:52:36 -!- pointless_ has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]