00:00:57 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:05:44 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 00:11:26 -!- Cryp71c_ has joined ##crawl-dev 00:12:57 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:17:56 'mornin. 00:17:56 ixtli: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 00:18:00 !messages 00:18:00 (1/1) Enne said (2h 33m 3s ago): I'll try to take a look at it, maybe this weekend. It'd be good to move that into master sooner rather than later. 00:19:47 !tell Enne No worries. I'll probably be around less than I'm not this weekend as my school friends are in town, but please let me know if there are any problems. Specifically it might be annoying to select only the uiwrapper, because im not 100% done with the glwrapper. 00:19:47 ixtli: OK, I'll let Enne know. 00:21:24 !tell Enne Also, i'm going to be changing a lot of the glwrapper soon, because there are too many one-to-one wrapper functions that probably wont make porting any easier. 00:21:24 ixtli: OK, I'll let Enne know. 00:31:34 -!- Cryp71c_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:38:55 -!- Cryp71c_ has joined ##crawl-dev 00:39:22 !tell dpeg I tweaked your Divinations post and am using it for this play-testing. I intendn to write something about portal vaults over the weekend. 00:39:22 due: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 01:03:55 -!- raydarken1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:04:24 -!- purge has joined ##crawl-dev 01:11:55 *** New Play-Testing Post: http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/play-testing-hit-me-with-your-dowsing-rod *** 01:18:18 -!- Napkin has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:19:57 -!- Napkin has joined ##crawl-dev 01:30:28 I think volcanoes may be too easy. 01:37:41 -!- Cryp71c|Away has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:56:55 -!- Cryp71c_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:08:04 -!- Spads has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:08:16 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:13:40 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 02:15:12 the wucad mu wizlab was very cool 02:16:13 a lot of the shadowy monks were asleep upon being summoned, not sure if that's intentional or i was just lucky to be stealthy :P 02:18:57 !tell doy dungeon sprint on CDO is updated :) 02:18:57 Napkin: OK, I'll let doy know. 02:21:07 03neunon * rda8898dd5e6d 10/crawl-ref/source/effects.cc: effects.cc: fix struct/class specifier inconsistency for 'class dist' 02:21:08 03neunon * r6d20b7d34ee7 10/crawl-ref/source/godabil.h: godabil.h: fix struct/class specifier inconsistency for 'struct bolt' 02:21:11 03neunon * r9e1a572b3d77 10/crawl-ref/source/ (kills.cc mon-act.cc mon-place.cc): fix struct/class specifier inconsistency for 'class monsters' 02:21:12 03neunon * r132217f1323c 10/crawl-ref/source/tags.cc: fix struct/class specifier inconsistency for 'class reader' 02:31:16 -!- by has joined ##crawl-dev 02:32:00 good morning 02:32:09 hi 02:44:59 should disintegration affect secret doors that masquerade as non-diggable wall? 02:45:22 I tend towards yes 02:49:49 yes 03:02:36 Holding down key stops screen update [Tiles] (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1003) by evktalo 03:23:40 03by * rf0c13ba5bd14 10/crawl-ref/source/ (terrain.cc terrain.h): Add connected_doors, wrapper around find_connected_range. 03:23:41 03by * r086e50c05d38 10/crawl-ref/source/beam.cc: Allow doors to be disintegrated. 03:23:43 03by * r1737cbf0d317 10/crawl-ref/source/ (main.cc mon-act.cc terrain.cc): Use connected_doors in other places. 03:27:37 !tell TGW I'd love a layout for sewers, I've been thinking about that a little. Want to do any mockups for the wiki? 03:27:37 Keskitalo: You have 3 messages. Use !messages to read them. 03:27:37 Keskitalo: OK, I'll let TGW know. 03:27:40 !messages 03:27:40 (1/3) dpeg said (6d 18h 42m 23s ago): Did you see my 15:19, 15:20 (MET) comments? 03:27:40 kilobyte: as a hackfor IOOD and submerged monsters, maybe the orb could make two moves at once if it had enough energy, and wait for next turn otherwise? 03:27:51 !messages 03:27:51 (1/2) dpeg said (14h 37m 48s ago): I believe that an absolutely pure pacifist is possible. But that's something for the Eriks. 03:27:56 !messages 03:27:57 (1/1) dpeg said (14h 4m 19s ago): I added a wiki for the menu. 03:28:10 Keskitalo: I've already done a pure pacifist, but dpeg appears to have forgotten 03:28:39 Oh, cool! Which species? 03:28:42 DD 03:28:53 !log char=ddhe ktyp=winning 03:29:12 1. by, XL23 DDHe, T:92134: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/by/morgue-by-20090919-165918.txt 03:29:14 I did kill one bat on swamp:5 with my +blink weapon, but I don't caref 03:29:36 by: and what if there are several submerged monsters in a row? 03:29:40 Napkin: Do we want to approve comments with emails such as "aaaaa@aaaa.com" ? 03:30:05 pure pacifist? And what did you eat? 03:30:09 kilobyte: yeah 03:30:35 kilobyte: let the broken neutrals kill other monsters 03:30:37 "hahano@hahano.com sounds a little bad as well. :) 03:31:27 hey Keskitalo :) 03:32:02 I don't think the email address does matter 03:34:13 Okay. 03:34:19 do you? 03:34:57 Quality of the comment itself is most important. :) 03:35:05 agreed :) 03:35:20 the "King slime" guy gave 2 more comments 03:35:32 it seems pacified creatures don't show up in the kill list at all 03:35:40 but thanks to blacklist it was marked as spam immediately ;) 03:35:49 Napkin: Heh. :) 03:36:31 Napkin: The things about forums? 03:36:43 kilobyte - what about setting setuid instead of setgid and adjusting PRIVATE_FILES permissions to something reasonable? additionally create the compiled files during installation? 03:36:51 exactly, Keskitalo 03:38:45 there are several different types of files: saves, db, morgues, scores and bones 03:39:27 yes, exactly 03:39:43 db could be moved outside of saves/ to a dir that's never writeable by "games" -- and compiled either at build time or at install time 03:40:42 in fact, I don't see why we would put that it in /var/ if they're immutable except for upgrades 03:41:04 is it really important to keep the real user-id? 03:41:36 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 03:42:00 do you mean, having Crawl setuid nobody as well? 03:42:11 yes 03:42:38 kilobyte: for 0.6, we should probably just come up with some message for submerged-blocked IOOD 03:44:12 it might mean to prevent the option to choose a name at the beginning.. unless we use $HOME/.crawl/ to save savegames in 03:44:18 I thought about that, it could "hit the water and splash it around", with no actual splashing for lava 03:44:29 except, trapdoor spiders submerge in floor... 03:44:42 "hits the floor" 03:44:58 anyways, removing the whole multi-user functionality is a bit harsh, in my opinion. there are lots of other options. 03:45:00 that would be fine I think 03:45:06 unless.. there is another reason to get rid of it 03:46:21 having saves in $HOME means no one but the owner can mess with them in any way 03:47:19 the only things which have a reason to be writeable and shared are scores and bones 03:48:59 Hmm, what if we dropped setgid and allowed everyone to mess with scores? That would allow cheating but you already can edit your own save. 03:50:21 kilobyte: just read my mail. Seems as if you can go ahead with the multiuser stuff? 03:50:21 dpeg: You have 3 messages. Use !messages to read them. 03:52:30 For ghosts, we need to make them resilient against tampered files because of Hearse. My idea would be to validate every number, and ignore OOD ghosts. 03:53:18 This would have a side effect for CAO/CDO, but it's not a bad one IMO. 03:54:33 kilobyte: sounds good 03:55:13 dpeg: Napkin objected to it (before you joined IRC), providing a solution to _some_ issues. 03:57:25 aha! 03:57:46 This could easily lead to nothing happens :) (No offense implied to either party, just experience speaking.) 04:01:51 I'd prefer more paranoia than less, so having the database writeable by other players definitely has to go. It can be either private to $HOME or done by root. The database and saves are the two main avenues for attack. 04:01:58 well, don't you guys consider the multi-user installation a feature either? 04:02:34 it would be interesting to see know many people are making use of it 04:03:06 yeah, it is a feature, and not a bad one. 04:03:37 The "private DGL" idea can't fly because of tiles :( 04:03:41 I remember when we did our first crawl installation on a company server.. and we logged in and played there - and having the common score file and shared ghosts was one of the big funs :) 04:05:05 morgues are not an issue if we refuse to ever write to an existing file (symlink attacks, lemme check if we already check for them) 04:05:16 later we went for a dgl-install, since we got too much attention watching the other person play by rolling the chairs too much ;) 04:05:25 O_EXCL? 04:05:27 or racy? 04:07:15 hrm, there's '#' which is supposed to overwrite files 04:07:35 kilobyte: but only one specific file? 04:07:44 ~s 04:07:49 is supposed to overwrite a file too 04:07:56 yes 04:08:56 kilobyte: don't we drop privs before writing morgues anyway 04:11:23 night all 04:11:57 -!- Textmode has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:14:22 I just checked: '#' and morgues are vulnerable to symlinks. 04:15:39 how you create one there is another story, but it lets you get from owning games to owning an user 04:16:57 don't install games setgid 04:17:14 if you want multiple users to be able to run a game, man 5 sudoers 04:17:22 lol 04:17:37 you can't be serious 04:18:40 why can't I be? 04:18:49 ALL ALL = NOPASSWD: (crawl) crawl 04:18:54 omg 04:19:22 look at the size of Crawl ... 04:19:25 permissions 4750 is perfectly fine 04:19:31 sorear: That would allow you to play anyone else's game though 04:20:13 -u `logname` I guess then... clearly we should automate this 04:20:14 so would perm 4750.. 04:20:42 Napkin: perm 4750 is absolutely not fine, because a setuid program can access the invoking user's files 04:20:45 How does NetHack solve this 04:21:15 Ok, back to work for me 04:21:18 Napkin: if you feel like doing a comprehensive security audit of Crawl, go ahead, I sure don't 04:21:20 erm - so can sudo? 04:21:30 rofl 04:21:33 get lost, sorear 04:21:45 Why is there so much tension around? 04:21:58 !coffee 04:21:58 * Henzell hands greensnark a cup of black coffee, brewed by Crazy Yiuf. 04:22:18 Any prolonged discussion inevitable leads to hard feelings all around :P 04:22:28 * dpeg brews coffee for all the interested parties. 04:22:32 dpeg: because security is a hard problem and we don't have enough brain cells left for being nice 04:22:33 * greensnark is back later. 04:22:45 sorear: personal attacks won't help any. 04:23:00 Was that a personal attack? 04:23:03 perhaps we need a wiki to set the various approaches apart. 04:23:11 sorear: it was definitely taken as such. 04:23:36 And we should check how Nethack deals with the issue. 04:23:38 oh. sorry. 04:23:55 NetHack is setuid games or some such, can't recall 04:24:12 But they've presumably sorted out these issues 04:24:23 We should definitely precompile .des and db files for system-wide installs 04:24:41 for dgl installs too, please 04:24:58 We'll just add a makefile target for it 04:25:00 every 2 months there's someone voicing concerns about that 04:25:33 cool, so this particular item doesn't raise discussion 04:25:46 Napkin: I am afraid that with CDO/CAO becoming popular enough, someone will want to exploit the holes. 04:25:57 some time ago I added --builddb but got distracted and didn't follow through 04:26:09 Are they very exploitable on CAO/CDO? 04:26:14 due: Hi! 04:26:20 Hi! 04:26:26 it's not about holes - it's about 2 or more processes compiling those files at the same time 04:26:33 Ah. 04:26:42 due: I have absolutely no idea, but people more educated than me say so. 04:26:49 No, I understand this issue. 04:26:57 greensnark said that is handled fine sometime in the past - so i'd like to stick to that theory ;) 04:31:34 NetHack is setuid games. Saves are single files owned by you:games so you can edit them but there are no tar/zip related exploits. The logfile is owned by root:games. Bones are owned by you:games. 04:32:13 setgid or setuid? 04:32:15 there's no exploitable database, too 04:32:18 setgid 04:34:58 So you can: 1. achieve any score with an edited save, 2. feed other players tampered bones (and with bones being complex, this may lead to actual exploits) 04:41:01 * due eyes troves thoughtfully. 04:44:38 The NetHack Way to stop this is to embed checksums and encrypted modification times into the save files, then encrypt the whole thing for good measure. 04:44:45 Suprisingly, this seems to have worked. 04:49:00 against casual attackers, yeah. Anyone determined can read the checksum generation code and create valid checksums. 04:49:22 "Suprisingly" 04:49:35 there are apparently no determined attackers against nethack 04:50:29 and if malicious bones can lead to executing arbitrary code (quite likely), you can feed some to Hearse too 04:51:50 so what's the solution there? instead of a memory-dump using decent serialization? 04:52:07 our current security can be broken by anyone. I'd want to stop not only casual attackers, but determined ones as well. 04:52:53 bhaak: serialization with validating every value 04:53:26 my idea is to accept that malicious bones can be injected and limit the damage 04:58:37 To sum things up, I'd propose: database -> precompiled and read-only. Morgues, dumps: as-is, except opened with O_EXCL. Scores: validated against corruption, no big damage if someone hacks them. Bones: validated, any value that seems OOD makes the ghost ignored (would affect legitimate griefers). Saves -> moved to $HOME/.crawl/ 05:22:51 -!- Spads has joined ##crawl-dev 05:30:40 kilobyte: sounds good 05:36:07 !seen Anym 05:36:08 I last saw Anym at Wed Mar 3 15:10:39 2010 UTC (20h 25m 29s ago) quitting with message Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6/20100115144158]. 05:43:39 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:44:29 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 05:44:29 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: DCSS development channel! | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Ashenzari source: http://github.com/doy/crawlbot | due is semihere for the next few days. 05:56:42 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:57:22 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 05:57:22 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: DCSS development channel! | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Ashenzari source: http://github.com/doy/crawlbot | due is semihere for the next few days. 06:06:56 Poor Ashenzari. 06:07:34 On a related note: That should not be happening to me anymore! 06:08:01 (Still might randomly disconnect a time or two over the next few days as I finish up the wiring, but...) 06:08:47 Yay. 06:13:12 Cleaned the branches brainstorm pages a bit. Can't do so for Shoals, as I've barely entered them. 06:18:51 Shoals has never generated for me ;O Even in test debug games, I warp to shoals and it's like 'Shoals wasn't generated this game. Go there anyway?' 06:19:11 03kilobyte * reaa8e7b24939 10/crawl-ref/source/ (chardump.cc crash-u.cc files.cc files.h l_file.cc): Protect against symlink attacks when writing morgues and dumps. 06:19:12 03kilobyte * ra1c3eff7ac2b 10/crawl-ref/source/makefile: Touch the scores and logfile so they're owned by root:games. 06:26:52 kilobyte: I suggest you go ahead. 06:27:03 Keskitalo: any opinion on the starting menu wiki page? 06:34:26 * due sleep. 06:34:31 90% of troves seem to work. 06:34:41 It's just that some jewellery is setting pluses when it doesn't need to, so I need to check that. 06:34:51 Still need to do the WizLab loot check. 06:34:59 Tukima, Erinya and Doroklohe are fine. 06:35:05 As is Ciotuvi. 06:35:07 *Cigotuvi. 06:35:25 It's just the others that need to be checked, specifically Zonguldrok, which only has some rather boring scrolls/potions. 06:35:39 Goodnight. 06:37:00 due: send me a mail! 06:37:08 dpeg: Will try to rememeber 06:37:17 dpeg: Looks good to me, pretty much what I envisioned but slightly better. I'd add "Manual" as one of the options. 06:37:53 One tester remarked that he wouldn't have used it (right away), but it would have been comforting to know it was there. 06:38:03 due: Good night! 06:40:10 due: okay, sleep well. Just a list with wizlabs tasks I can do. 06:40:21 Keskitalo: yes, wasn't sure if Manual should be there. 06:44:33 if (get_ammo_brand(item) == SPWPN_NORMAL) 06:44:44 we really should not be using "int" for enums so much 06:48:28 Let me ask once more: I frequently find missiles (stones) dropped my dead foes, and they are fully identified. Is that a known bug? 06:49:27 not known to me 06:50:08 okay, so I'll file 06:51:48 03by * r6b7ee2f4b213 10/crawl-ref/source/ (itemname.cc itemname.h itemprop.cc itemprop.h): Merge ammo brand naming from name_aux and missile_brand_name. 06:51:49 03by * r07dce66f5a8a 10/crawl-ref/source/xom.cc: Fix broken brand check in xom.cc::_try_brand_switch. 06:59:43 dpeg: what do you think of the lack of damage colour with the new targeting? 07:01:22 was that a configurable thing, or hard-coded? 07:03:15 lack of damage colour? 07:05:07 I think a "It is moderately wounded." used to be coloured 07:06:35 ah yes, in message.cc:channel_to_colour, messages on MSGCH_MONSTER_DAMAGE get coloured according to damaage description 07:06:51 by: not sure how intentional that is. 07:06:56 but now targeting doesn't output a separate monster damage message 07:06:56 Should I ask Haran? 07:07:09 by: well, that's an improvement, no? 07:07:23 sure, in some ways, but not in this one 07:08:58 A centaur warrior, wielding a glowing bow (almost dead) 07:09:10 do you think it would look good to have "almost dead" red? 07:09:44 yes 07:10:03 I believe it's good to condense, but the "almost dead" is the most important information, so colourse are good. 07:11:27 by: do you want to try that, or should I ask Haran? 07:11:58 I'll try, it shouldn't be difficult 07:33:33 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 07:36:04 -!- hotsun has joined ##crawl-dev 07:48:15 [Tiles] On-the fly window resizing (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1004) by evktalo 07:49:05 Just an incomplete patch. 07:50:32 Keskitalo: You're becoming a coder!!! 07:51:33 He's just a typewriter, I'm dictating for him what to do! 07:51:41 felirx: phew, I am relieved! 07:52:15 We're doing pair programming for the sessions right now 07:52:21 Otherwise I have to find some other code-illiterate for the devteam. 07:54:49 Yeah, the downside is that I'm definitely becoming more and more code-literate. :P 07:57:45 But who will I talk to about grand design then? :) 07:58:53 -!- hotsun has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- *I* use it, so it must be good!] 08:05:22 You throw a runed exploding dart. 08:05:23 The runed exploding dart hits the goblin. 08:05:23 The goblin is severely wounded. 08:05:23 The goblin shouts! 08:05:23 The runed exploding dart explodes! 08:05:25 The explosion of dart fragments engulfs the goblin. 08:05:27 You kill the goblin! 08:05:30 impressive 08:06:34 03by * ra408941b3c06 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-stuff.cc mon-stuff.h): Optionally colour output of get_wounds_description. 08:06:37 03by * r44b9f7481f0e 10/crawl-ref/source/ (makefile.obj message.cc message.h tagstring.cc tagstring.h): Clean up message colour handling. 08:06:40 03by * r77402ada567f 10/crawl-ref/source/directn.cc: Colour targeting wound description. 08:07:08 by: thank you! 08:07:16 also, the order is slightly off 08:07:22 (among those messages) 08:07:43 I also thought the "shout" in between was weird, but it does make sense in a way 08:07:55 or did you mean something different? 08:07:59 no 08:08:07 And I agree that it makes some sense after a while. 08:08:45 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 08:11:21 -!- Xardas-3 has joined ##crawl-dev 08:19:40 hmm why do berserkers start with evasive armor when they will never be able to cast spells? 08:20:07 because only fighters get heavy armour 08:20:58 (not sure that's completely true, but that's the basic reason I think) 08:21:21 yes, it is 08:22:07 03j-p-e-g * r436012f3fd56 10/crawl-ref/source/stuff.cc: Fix #1002: Print error messages passed into end() on a separate screen. 08:53:30 That fix breaks error reporting for console builds for errors encountered before curses initialization 08:55:06 greensnark: I wrote to the list already 08:55:16 Oh, thanks 08:55:28 canned_msg(MSG_UNTHINKING_ACT) :) 08:59:41 03by * re93198d62bd4 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-cast.cc: Abort delayed fireball if already charged. 09:06:54 -!- jld has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:08:44 -!- jld has joined ##crawl-dev 09:11:10 -!- Xardas-3 has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.0.17/2010021501]] 10:15:20 !tell I had a local encounter with Menkaure. Torment is awesome. 10:15:20 Keskitalo: OK, I'll let I know. 10:15:26 !tell due I had a local encounter with Menkaure. Torment is awesome. 10:15:26 Keskitalo: OK, I'll let due know. 10:15:31 With apologies to I. 10:20:07 -!- karmatic has joined ##crawl-dev 10:27:22 -!- DrPraetor has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:43:32 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 11:01:40 -!- by has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:03:36 -!- purge has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:09:37 -!- scarf has joined ##crawl-dev 11:20:46 -!- felirx has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:40:36 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:45:31 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 11:52:24 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 11:53:47 in tiles, "rotten" mini-icon should replace "poisonous" mini-icon when poisonous corpses rot (useful for early transmuters who carry corpses around) 11:54:20 ortoslon: mantis! 11:54:20 doy: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 11:54:24 !messages 11:54:28 ok 11:54:29 (1/2) Chapayev said (23h 12m 18s ago): awesome! thanks a lot :) 11:54:32 !messages 11:54:32 (1/1) Napkin said (9h 35m 35s ago): dungeon sprint on CDO is updated :) 11:59:27 mini-icon for rotten poisonous corpses (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1005) by ortoslon 12:00:00 i don't think there's any advantage to waiting for corpses to rot now, though 12:00:14 in terms of fulsome's results 12:04:33 -!- DrPraetor has joined ##crawl-dev 12:07:22 is it a bug that playerghost's description don't mention how fast they are? 12:08:07 ortoslon: Rotten corpses don't produce more powerful potions any more. 12:08:16 oh great 12:08:39 03Keskitalo * r0dce169dd80d 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/portals/spider.des: A very modest Spider's Nest portal vault prototype. 12:08:43 then the description of fulsome distillation is misleading :) 12:08:59 oh nice a new portal 12:09:29 "the type of potion produced corresponds roughly to the effects of eating said corpse" 12:10:56 Mu_: Real maps welcome. :) 12:11:53 ortoslon: So should add "while it's fresh"? 12:12:12 maybe 12:12:40 Keskitalo: it is of Lair difficulty? 12:13:47 Mu_: Spider's Nest is planned to be a Lair branch (alongside Snake/Swamp/Shoals). 12:14:20 ah 12:14:23 The wiki page: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:branch:spider 12:14:27 thank you 12:14:43 03j-p-e-g * r394ba22e3b7a 10/crawl-ref/source/ (files.cc stuff.cc stuff.h): Only print error messages for save incompatibility to the screen. 12:35:05 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:40:59 -!- by has joined ##crawl-dev 12:50:01 -!- karmatic has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:50:25 -!- karmatic has joined ##crawl-dev 12:56:44 03kilobyte * r8441ee9fedad 10/crawl-ref/source/traps.cc: Announce monsters destroying shafts only if you can see that. 13:00:51 I have a full-level vault (boxes I think) which apparently got a 9x9 altar vault placed over it -- bug? 13:03:40 yeah, altar vault placing is really not handled very well for some reason 13:06:52 by: yes, bug 13:09:47 altar vault overwrites full-level vault (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1006) by rob 13:18:01 -!- felirx has joined ##crawl-dev 13:33:22 -!- Spads has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:45:13 It is very annoying that submerged spiders block traffic. 13:54:17 -!- DrPraetor has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:02:56 A giant eye paralysed me through a door :( 14:03:18 _You close the door. You start resting. You found a trap! You found a trap! You feel you are being watched by something. 14:03:21 _You suddenly lose the ability to move! 14:03:24 _A Balrug opens the door. 14:04:21 Bad bug. 14:04:41 i thought that bug was fixed 14:05:54 all these bugs are due to the "don't update LOS every turn" optimizations 14:07:03 by: so we have to be more careful when not to update LOS? 14:07:15 doy: Sprint is using trunk, right? 14:07:23 dpeg: yes 14:07:45 by: but I closed the door, rested for a while and *then* the giant eye would see me (through the closed door). 14:08:06 I may know what this bug is, but I'm afraid we'll keep running into bugs 14:08:16 but that optimization is important/: 14:08:54 doy: but the bug is a killer 14:09:02 dpeg: yes, i know 14:09:27 maybe I'm just pessimistic, and this is the last one :) 14:09:29 lose/lose situation :) 14:09:33 by: hehe 14:09:55 Aren't bug reports on Mantis reported anymore? 14:10:02 they are 14:10:04 Stones identified when monsters die (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1008) by dpeg 14:10:04 Giant eye paralyses through door (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1007) by dpeg 14:10:09 aha :) 14:14:47 should be able to reproduce this bug by reading ?fog in view of roxanne 14:15:15 03by * r317d40a99d40 10/crawl-ref/source/actor-los.cc: Update monster's LOS if close enough to the player. 14:15:19 dpeg: thanks for the report! I hope this gets it 14:15:50 by: thanks for looking into it! I will only be free again when a TrHu makes it :) 14:25:48 -!- Spads has joined ##crawl-dev 14:26:18 -!- DrPraetor has joined ##crawl-dev 14:28:39 -!- TGW1 has joined ##crawl-dev 14:28:50 holy crap that is a lot of content 14:28:55 -!- TGW1 is now known as TGWi 14:29:07 TGWi: ? 14:29:20 character selection 14:29:35 it became enormous overnight 14:29:48 TGWi: yeah :) 14:29:55 character selection? 14:30:41 :brainstorm:interface:combochoice 14:32:51 doy: there will be a flamewar soon, I suspect. 14:32:59 The old darkgrey debate. 14:33:07 heh 14:33:21 I am ready to throw all my weight into the battle :) 14:33:25 pretty sure i'm about done with that debate 14:33:31 i've made my opinions pretty clear 14:34:42 whoever realised you can use three columns is a genius 14:40:04 doy: I cannot let up. Some bad trait of me :/ 14:57:06 03j-p-e-g * r4b725b953c7e 10/crawl-ref/source/ (files.cc stuff.cc stuff.h): Break lines correctly when printing error messages to the screen. 14:57:11 03j-p-e-g * rf3d247212b50 10/crawl-ref/source/stuff.cc: Reinstate cio_cleanup/databaseSystemShutdown at the beginning of end(). 14:57:12 03j-p-e-g * r46fc35f70398 10/crawl-ref/source/fight.cc: Fix #964: special_damage_message not checking for los 15:06:36 http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:interface:combochoice#revised_tgw_proposal 15:11:54 -!- nrook has joined ##crawl-dev 15:14:19 dpeg: you should see that last one 15:14:37 will look later 15:14:41 texing right now 15:14:41 ok 15:17:35 -!- eith_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:18:29 tsn is using up 99% of one cpu 15:19:28 and he is just standing there doing nothing 15:19:35 mem usage is stable too 15:20:44 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:27:24 -!- ortoslon has left ##crawl-dev 15:27:35 ok, mail sent 15:29:46 we toyed with an idea earlier today what you could do with a single line 15:30:09 In essence, you could display a very short description of a highlighted race / class in said line 15:30:23 ooh 15:30:37 which would naturally require you to be able to select your species / class by arrows 15:31:04 you could get rid of the "which one?" line and the associated blank 15:31:48 "Human, baseline for everything, pick something else" :) 15:31:52 TGWi: saw it :) I find the listing of backgrounds too ragged... 15:32:03 ...in particular since backgrounds come and backgrounds go. 15:32:10 dpeg: it would look way nicer if hu/am didn't exist 15:32:12 felirx: yes, I agree with that. 15:32:16 TGWi: :P 15:32:17 and ar 15:32:51 I would simply remove all the blanks in the backgrounds section 15:33:19 also, we have more than 27 backgrounds - bug! 15:33:58 I wonder if I should make my own... 15:34:19 can't... somebody else is doing this already :) 15:34:50 you could probably fit in two lines of description 15:35:06 dpeg: we should remove thief for now 15:35:08 there are 30 backgrounds 15:35:14 hmm 15:35:56 doy: yes, but Thief is a class that will come back :) 15:35:58 only there's no pretty way to do it 15:36:01 So it's only a temporary gain. 15:36:03 TGWi: yes 15:36:06 we can remove something else once that happens d: 15:36:12 3 fighters and 6 priests = 9 15:36:19 and the last one will be very lonely 15:36:42 !lg * cv>=0.5 s=-role 15:36:50 in the interest of prettiness 15:36:54 we should remove them three at a time 15:36:56 263155 games for * (cv>=0.5): 2299x Arcane Marksman, 2552x Healer, 3520x Summoner, 3539x Wanderer, 3970x Venom Mage, 3993x Hunter, 4157x Earth Elementalist, 4727x Warper, 5504x Artificer, 5629x Priest, 5648x Ice Elementalist, 6238x Air Elementalist, 6338x Paladin, 6347x Death Knight, 6555x Gladiator, 6597x Monk, 6939x Reaver, 7937x Assassin, 8139x Conjurer, 10015x Crusader, 10240x Fire Elementalis... 15:37:02 DK, th and something else? please? 15:37:06 I have Henzell on ignore.... will I not see my messages anymore? 15:37:16 TGWi: class reform ==> 0.7 15:37:20 dpeg: so's this 15:37:32 But it won't be guided by character selection screen design. 15:37:38 either that or you're setting yourself up for a very angry doy 15:40:59 a very angry devteam 15:41:29 first column gets fighters, priests then hu... second gets stabbing, hybrid then am... third gets casters and ar 15:41:30 * TGWi jig 15:43:26 so columns of size 8, 9, and 13 15:43:54 3+6+1 is 10 thanks 15:44:05 ? 15:44:13 fi gl mo be pa pr he ck dk 15:44:21 hu 15:44:38 ck and dk are vaguely hybrids 15:44:40 if you cut dk from the release, no one will notice 15:44:50 ck isn't really hybrid 15:44:51 at all 15:44:55 yeah, i guess 15:45:07 dk I probably don't need to list twice if I'm not explicitly grouping 15:45:24 03by * r4931d5d68728 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-util.cc: Disable 'z' range check for fire storm. 15:45:30 where are you getting 13? 15:45:30 so, 10, 7, 13 then 15:45:47 cr re wr tm en st 15:45:51 there are 12 caster races 15:45:53 as th 15:45:54 roles rather 15:46:05 wz cj su ne fe ie ae ee? 15:46:20 vm 15:46:24 the ones that kill things by casting 15:46:24 wr, wz, cj, en, su, ne, tr, fe, ie, ae, ee, vm 15:46:35 en tm wr aren't even close 15:46:55 they're based around a school of magic 15:47:02 they're also hybrids 15:47:02 that's their only reason for exsting 15:47:18 they aren't really hybrids though 15:47:33 how do you figure 15:47:33 they're only hybrids because the school isn't strong enough on its own 15:47:41 that's somewhat different 15:47:56 or because the school is explicitly for support? 15:48:00 compared to cr, which is explicitly hybrid 15:48:12 i mean, why do we have cr and en then? or re and cj? 15:48:13 tloc, ench 15:48:28 because cr and en are completely different hybrids 15:48:31 and cj isn't a hybrid 15:48:37 I don't know what you're saying 15:51:03 fi gl mo hu be pa pr he ck dk hu / cr re tm am wr en st as th ar / wz cj su ne fe ie ae ee vm wn ? 15:51:20 <3 the idea of having wn at the end 15:53:17 Too many items on level, removing some. 15:54:05 please stop it, grouping is not good 15:54:32 dpeg: they are columns 15:54:37 you realize we have to have columns 15:54:48 you also realize it's better if the columns are somewhat logical 15:56:32 03by * r898d46077745 10/crawl-ref/settings/init.txt: init.txt: Add commented force_more to prevent z/Z errors. 16:09:22 -!- by has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:16:42 so i've remade vestibule 16:17:51 Mu_: that's good news! 16:18:00 TGWi: I am still not convinced. 16:18:14 dpeg: we don't have room to put them all in one column 16:18:40 :P 16:18:49 Three columns, and be done with it. 16:18:55 it is not desirable to have assassin at the bottom and thief at the top, is it? 16:19:13 I'm trying to avoid splitting any obviously similar classes 16:19:22 I don't want an insane discussion about the starting screen every time we add or remove a background. 16:21:13 dpeg: should i mail it to you 16:21:40 Mu_: yes, please 16:21:56 is having EE on B a bad thing? 16:22:08 because otherwise, this looks great 16:22:18 TGWi: right now, Assassin is next to Thief. What's the problem? 16:22:34 dpeg: I'm also lettering them vertically 16:23:11 hm, placing them horizontally would work 16:23:24 so they would all be placed well, but have ridiculously different letters 16:23:27 is that preferable? 16:23:33 dpeg, 9k? 16:24:27 cbus: good! 16:24:35 so I'm almost SDK 16:24:38 just need to get rid of the ? 16:24:38 :D 16:24:40 TGWi: it doesn't really matter 16:29:34 If Elementalist were a background [with a "choose an element" screen] there would be 27. ;) 16:30:45 marcmagus: to be honest, classes matter little: several have suboptions, and you could easily move stuff around. 16:31:01 personally, I think it's better to have no subchoices 16:31:40 dpeg: Would you split CK to separate classes by god? 16:32:05 marcmagus: I am not sure we need CK. 16:32:09 -!- timecircuits has joined ##crawl-dev 16:32:19 timecircuits: Hi! 16:32:43 03j-p-e-g * rb1bce0375c36 10/crawl-ref/source/food.cc: Use menu colour rather than message colour tags for the chunk prompts. 16:32:44 dpeg: So we can play Xom when drunk without having to worry about being sober enough to get to the temple? 16:32:48 03j-p-e-g * rf6446a247403 10/crawl-ref/source/food.cc: Implement #370: When eating, don't prompt for dangerous chunk types. 16:32:53 03j-p-e-g * rebbc5650f66a 10/crawl-ref/source/item_use.cc: Prompt when the player tries to eat a dangerous chunk by mouseclick. 16:32:58 03j-p-e-g * r58c887e4486c 10/crawl-ref/source/item_use.cc: Use menu colours for prompts for eating dangerous chunks by mouseclick. 16:33:11 (I don't actually think the elementalists should be combined; it just jumped out at me as an obvious way to get to 27) 16:34:04 marcmagus: I think there should be fewer religious classes. 16:34:20 I am fine with E, T, L. 16:35:39 dpeg: sent 16:37:03 yes! 16:37:58 *nod* 16:38:52 added two new projections 16:39:01 hm, I guess that B is also okay 16:39:10 or we just add a guaranteed altar in Orc 16:39:31 I was going to say, if there's a guaranteed B altar early in Orc it's not necessary...without one I think it is. 16:40:28 I'd still argue for X. I can't think of any others though where the god so completely defines the character from the start that it should be a role [other than those you listed] 16:40:39 dpeg: you should see the one all the way down, you might like it 16:41:10 curses, og17 locked it again 16:41:18 (I think early just so you don't have to kill all the orcs in order to become their champion...although I guess it could become flavor. 16:42:47 TGWi: but I can still look at it! 16:43:08 marcmagus: nah, the altar would not be guaranteed early :) 16:43:55 dpeg: how's that going? 16:44:03 early beogh guarantee sounds like massive trouble 16:44:15 Yeah, the more I think of it, no need. There are tons of orcs left in the game, and fighting your way through to the bottom of Orc is a good way to prove yourself worthy. 16:46:56 marcmagus: exactly. And when there's no B altar in Orc entry, 1 or 2, well you can prepare and dive =) 16:49:46 i'm not a fan of L for a starting god 16:49:52 but we've had this discussion before 16:49:53 (: 16:50:04 I've been wanting to try Beogh for a while. That's definitely going to be my next game. 16:50:10 morn 16:50:11 due: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 16:50:17 !messages 16:50:18 (1/1) Keskitalo said (6h 34m 52s ago): I had a local encounter with Menkaure. Torment is awesome. 16:50:24 :D 16:52:09 -!- DrPraetor has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:52:53 heh, I died to Menkaure today 16:52:55 due: Hallo! 16:53:06 Torment's pretty useless against most early-game characters, but I didn't realise in time that it really hurts DD 16:53:15 doy: Yes, I know the argument, and I understand. But I think that the didactic value is larger. 16:54:22 scarf: yes, exactly. 16:54:29 scarf: but the *outcry* was worth it. 16:54:37 dpeg: hi, saw your note, will do up a little list 16:54:43 due: meh, I don't really mind being tormented 16:54:51 but then, I enjoy the Abyss; something's weird with me 16:55:18 ?? CDO 16:55:19 cdo[1/3]: Crawl server (also running development versions), located in Germany/Europe, crawl.develz.org, telnet port 345 or ssh port 22, ssh-username: crawl, ssh-key necessary: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/cao_key (openssh) or http://crawl.develz.org/cao_key.ppk (putty) 16:55:51 But the screaming--oh the screaming. Like music to my ears. 16:56:27 due: who screamed? And about what -- Menkaure? 16:57:41 dpeg: Yeah. 16:59:27 Menkaure is very good. 17:01:43 * due very happy with him. 17:05:58 same 17:06:11 If player's don't scream, something went wrong. 17:06:31 I don't think I've ever screamed as a roguelike 17:06:46 dpeg, haste+torment on a monster might eb enough :) 17:06:56 to make players scream 17:07:21 cbus: yes, but the fact is that some players will scream whenever they die, no matter what cause. 17:07:30 "A new unique! It killed me!! Bugse!!!" 17:08:02 *screamed at a roguelike 17:08:11 dpeg: if a new unique /doesn't/ kill me, I consider it boring 17:09:10 scarf: you are not one of them. But then, you like the Abyss. 17:09:30 I liked the Abyss since I first got banished in 4b26. It felt so mad, so crazy <3 17:09:42 it's beautiful 17:09:54 one of the most beautiful places I've seen in any computer game ever 17:09:59 the demons are a little annoying, though 17:10:07 dpeg, haste+torment might be a bit too much that early though :) 17:10:24 cbus: torment never killed anybody! 17:10:28 I like the abyss 17:10:29 It could be better, of course. But that'd mean more madness, not less. 17:10:34 @?? menkaure 17:10:34 Menkaure (06M) | Speed: 6 | HD: 3 | Health: 24 | AC/EV: 3/6 | Damage: 25 | Flags: 07undead, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(20), 02cold, 03poison | Vul: 04fire | XP: 121 | Sp: pain, haste, torment symbol. 17:10:36 @??menkaure 17:10:36 Menkaure (06M) | Speed: 6 | HD: 3 | Health: 24 | AC/EV: 3/6 | Damage: 25 | Flags: 07undead, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(20), 02cold, 03poison | Vul: 04fire | XP: 121 | Sp: pain, haste, torment symbol. 17:10:37 no, but pain does 17:10:38 D: 17:10:39 :D 17:10:41 It's pain, haste and torment. 17:10:49 You just run. 17:10:52 hmm, does he lose health by using pain? 17:10:54 He's also vulnerable to firre. 17:10:56 And slow. 17:10:57 No. 17:11:02 BUG! 17:11:20 :) 17:11:23 does jessie? 17:11:34 tgwi, MuNe lose health from using pain, so he should too 17:11:48 -!- DrPraetor has joined ##crawl-dev 17:11:56 Monsters get a lot of spell boni that player do not. 17:18:18 -!- TGWi has left ##crawl-dev 17:23:51 -!- karmatic has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:34:35 -!- pointless_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:48:13 -!- scarf has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:53:21 -!- DrPraetor has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:54:56 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 17:56:14 morning all 17:56:21 Hi 18:04:26 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 18:08:45 so, removing "enter - earth elementalist" frees up half a line 18:08:48 what could we do with that? 18:09:18 We'll find something. 18:09:46 and we still have five extra lines 18:10:05 it seems like a description could fit there 18:10:33 yes 18:16:21 -!- syllogism has quit [] 18:17:05 -!- Textmode has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:18:18 Mornin. 18:18:18 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 18:19:06 -!- permagreen has joined ##crawl-dev 18:19:41 Hey, so I just found something of a bug in the trunk 18:20:57 There was a rat in the corridor behind a dart trap and it was apparently programmed to not step on the trap, but it didn't retreat either. So It just sat there and let me throw stones at it until it died 18:21:20 permagreen: other monsters will behave different 18:23:56 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: zzz] 18:26:24 All right, but I didn't think rats were mindless. I mean, if they're smart enough not to step on a trap, I would expect them to be smart enough to retreat 18:27:07 You know, a basic fight or flight mechanism. 18:29:32 It's not a big issue, but it does break the immersion a bit, so I figured someone ought to know about it 18:40:05 -!- eith_ is now known as eith 18:43:21 -!- karmatic has joined ##crawl-dev 18:44:21 -!- DrPraetor has joined ##crawl-dev 18:54:30 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 18:54:38 hello 18:55:15 hi 19:01:18 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Bye] 19:06:47 -!- tinymouse has joined ##crawl-dev 19:06:52 is there documentation for the des file format? 19:07:22 yes 19:07:33 \docs\develop\levels\syntax.txt 19:08:51 found it thanks 19:09:34 i like sprint-1 but it's not really winnable by most of the combos 19:09:44 was thinking about making another sprint map 19:13:27 do one with subvauls 19:13:30 and subvaults 19:15:16 yeah i was wondering if it was possible 19:15:23 what's the maximum size of the map? 19:17:01 -!- tinymouse_ has joined ##crawl-dev 19:17:10 darn web chat 19:17:24 i was wondering what's the maximum size of a sprint map 19:19:44 -!- tinymouse has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:21:44 try 80x70 19:22:10 I accept no responsibility for property damage that may results 19:22:11 result 19:40:40 -!- permagreen has quit [Quit: Welcome to the real world] 19:48:20 -!- tinymouse_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:07:58 is it intentional that if you die while misled, the log says you died to the creature you saw, rather than the actual creature? 20:08:43 Henzell reports the actual creature 20:09:11 Hm 20:09:26 No, that is a bug that I thought I had fixed 20:09:40 Does the "You die to XYZ" screen show the actual creature? 20:10:37 the message at the top of the log? yes, look http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/clouded/morgue-clouded-20100305-020605.txt 20:10:51 it was actually a centaur warrior 20:11:19 err, I mean no 20:11:25 misread 20:11:54 <333 misled 20:12:02 Yeah, that's wrong. 20:14:48 -!- timecircuits has left ##crawl-dev 20:14:54 And misled needs to show up in @. 20:18:33 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:19:54 I remember some talk of adding "...while confused" etc to the death message, "...while misled" would be a cute way to track mara's assisted kills 20:20:42 Yeah, I think that's 0.7, though. 20:22:51 gnoll isn't in collected species proposals :[ 20:23:06 What's wrong with gnoll? 20:24:32 the fact that I can't play one 20:48:10 -!- hundred-ideas has joined ##crawl-dev 20:48:44 exit 20:50:02 You missed your /. 20:50:57 lametastic 20:51:09 -!- hundred-ideas has left ##crawl-dev 20:52:01 -!- karmatic has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:52:35 -!- Twinge has quit [] 21:02:49 -!- karmatic has joined ##crawl-dev 21:35:04 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 21:35:13 Moo 21:38:09 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:58:09 -!- hundred-ideas has joined ##crawl-dev 22:25:04 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 22:30:07 -!- tinymouse has joined ##crawl-dev 22:30:18 what do you think should teleportitis be allowed in sprint? 22:30:46 seems inconsistent since the scroll doesnt work 22:31:03 -!- hundred-ideas has left ##crawl-dev 22:32:57 -!- ogaz has joined ##crawl-dev 22:33:00 -!- jld has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:36:13 Sonja distorted me into the orb area. 22:36:44 -!- jld has joined ##crawl-dev 22:39:10 havent had that happen. but i did get banished a few times 22:40:18 -!- pointless_ has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.8/20100202165920]] 22:53:05 -!- ogaz has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.8/20100202165920]] 22:58:53 -!- TGWi has left ##crawl-dev 23:05:22 -!- ogaz has joined ##crawl-dev 23:11:12 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:16:24 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 23:18:48 -!- tinymouse has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:21:02 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 23:22:12 -!- nrook has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:43:31 -!- twb has joined ##crawl-dev 23:44:47 Do I need an account in mantis in order to file bugs/feature requests? 23:44:55 Oh, it says so at the top. 23:44:59 Grumble... 23:45:44 Aaand a captcha that doesn't work because this tty doesn't support images. 23:51:21 And I can't follow the email confirmation URL twice, so because I closed the first browser before setting a password, I can't set a password. Graah, too hard. 23:51:51 What're you trying to report? 23:51:54 ...make a new account? 23:52:28 Twinge: "from a purely aesthetic point of view, it would be nice if legendary card decks were worth more gold than plain decks" 23:52:48 -!- karmatic has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:53:00 Twinge: i.e. a one-shot fire-and-forget RFE. 23:54:59 Alright, I'll post it for you; don't really follow why you were having so much trouble making an account though :P 23:55:47 Hmmm....getting locked out of being able to set a password sounds like a mantis bug. Clearly you now need to create an account on the mantis mantis so you can submit that. ;) 23:57:06 Posted. 23:57:46 Legendary Decks should be worth more than Plain Decks (twb) (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1010) by Twinge 23:57:46 error in description of Zonguldrok's gravestone (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1009) by Chigusa 23:58:06 Because I fundamentally object to needing to "log in" to provide bug reports, particularly when "logging in" only verifies that I have a valid email and that I'm annoyed enough about a bug to make a record of YET ANOTHER website's password and go through the login step every time I want to report another bug. 23:58:31 This is called collateral damage. 23:59:03 I grant you that I'm in a minority 23:59:38 there's both a captcha AND an email confirmation on new accounts? 23:59:43 that seems a bit excessive