00:17:08 orc priests can smite player's followers through walls (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=617) by yobbo 00:31:04 -!- Vandal has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:46:12 hi rob 00:47:06 hi due 00:51:18 by: Can you fact-check the Che post I'm making? 00:51:33 by: http://pastebin.ca/1771643 I just want to make sure nothing drastic has changed with it before I post it. 00:53:47 due: quite a lot of che changes; piety for fast monsters, not relatively fast monsters; no more piety hit for unequipping ponderous armour; che supports ponderous armour by giving resistances (rN, rC, rF for the first three pieces) and raising your stats (+1 across the board for each piece) 00:54:05 due: also piety for eating when full 00:55:11 Okay 00:55:31 Good, I haven't played Che so I did'thave a flul picture of him in my head 00:55:59 We need to document this all somewhere, especially the abilities (which hae no describe strings) 00:56:07 those changes were yesterday; not sure they're even live on cdo yet 00:56:48 Ahh 00:57:09 I normally update CDO and the windows builds just after posting. 01:06:30 -!- nrook has quit ["Lost terminal"] 01:47:31 Imps are renedered with a 5 next to them (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=618) by LoginError 01:50:55 I'm noticing that things on the other side of walls are waking up/shouting even though I'm just casting necromutation 01:51:08 is spelcasting really that loud? 01:51:41 yes, everything within radius of spell level wakes up, with a few exceptions 02:15:48 by: Thanks for the Che update 02:16:53 due: if you could somehow remark that these changes are new and might be well unbalanced, that'd be great 02:18:38 Yeah, the early part of the post comments on that. 02:30:22 -!- due has quit ["leaving"] 02:32:44 -!- lorimer has quit [card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:32:44 -!- Gretell has quit [card.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:33:26 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 02:33:26 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: DCSS development channel! | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl (new and improved! and possibly buggy... let doy know) | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/ | Play the speed change, comment on the wiki, please. 02:33:33 -!- Siber has joined ##crawl-dev 02:33:33 -!- kilobyte has joined ##crawl-dev 02:33:44 -!- Zannick has joined ##crawl-dev 02:33:58 -!- Xiberia has joined ##crawl-dev 02:34:08 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 02:34:13 -!- purge has joined ##crawl-dev 02:35:04 -!- rax has joined ##crawl-dev 02:35:08 -!- st__ has joined ##crawl-dev 02:35:17 -!- Adeon has joined ##crawl-dev 02:35:26 -!- Eronarn has joined ##crawl-dev 02:35:39 -!- Iainuki has joined ##crawl-dev 02:36:01 -!- jarpiain has joined ##crawl-dev 02:36:09 -!- by has joined ##crawl-dev 02:36:13 -!- elly has joined ##crawl-dev 02:36:13 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 02:36:16 -!- Zaba has quit [Changing host] 02:36:16 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 02:36:29 -!- zenna has joined ##crawl-dev 02:37:53 -!- lorimer has joined ##crawl-dev 02:37:54 -!- cbus has joined ##crawl-dev 02:38:07 -!- sorear has joined ##crawl-dev 02:38:32 -!- felirx_ has joined ##crawl-dev 02:38:44 -!- culcube has joined ##crawl-dev 02:39:23 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 02:39:48 -!- doy has joined ##crawl-dev 02:41:00 -!- mspang has joined ##crawl-dev 02:41:08 -!- Xiberia has quit [] 02:41:38 -!- Xiberia has joined ##crawl-dev 02:42:00 hmm 02:42:06 i can't get on ##crawl 02:42:22 keep getting Cannot join channel (+r) - you need to be identified with services 02:53:44 -!- violetj has joined ##crawl-dev 02:53:53 -!- Spads has joined ##crawl-dev 03:02:15 -!- Turbo has joined ##crawl-dev 03:03:25 -!- Madtrixr has joined ##crawl-dev 03:03:49 -!- Turbo has left ##crawl-dev 03:21:20 maybe you should identify with services then 03:30:19 -!- Xiberia has quit [] 03:30:46 -!- Xiberia has joined ##crawl-dev 03:34:37 -!- Jude is now known as due 03:37:39 -!- Kil2 has joined ##crawl-dev 03:39:09 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 03:50:29 -!- due has quit [*.net *.split] 03:50:32 -!- due has joined ##crawl-dev 03:58:09 purge: Ping 04:12:54 No CIA? 04:27:51 -!- purge has quit [Quit: !] 04:32:47 -!- Zaba_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:32:48 -!- Zaba_ has quit [Changing host] 04:32:48 -!- Zaba_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:35:37 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:36:04 due: had a volcano just then, off orc:2, nice! 04:41:57 Awesome! 04:41:59 which one? 04:42:10 * due tunes in. 04:42:21 five tunnels off a central chamber 04:42:29 orc warriors 04:42:41 a few of them went swimming in lava 04:42:59 :)) 04:43:04 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:43:54 centaur speed seems to be much more balanced by drawbacks than for spriggan 04:46:11 The hunger is an issue if you don't balance it properly. 04:47:19 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 04:54:52 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 04:56:26 Good afternoon! 04:56:50 Keskitalo: hi! 04:58:18 Heya Rob, Che changes went in to master right? Looked like a good bit of buffing there. 04:58:32 yes, but I don't think cdo has them yet 04:59:20 I'm on the wrong computer to do the update myself, otherwise I'd fix that right now. :) 05:00:27 Che Ibreados, the relaxed revolutionist. 05:01:22 I'll do it 05:01:29 Thanks due! Also hi! 05:01:29 hey Keskitalo! 05:01:35 Keskitalo: I coded up portal vualts getting entry tiles, kinda. 05:01:45 I saw the commit for ... that exactly. Didn't look at the tile yet. : 05:02:16 You still need to do e.tile("O = ") in the setup 05:03:06 Keskitalo: I'll update the CDO windows binaries tomorrow, once I'm finished the play testing post, as well. 05:04:04 due: e.tile blah is alright, as opposed to hard-coding them somewhere. (In case that's the alternative :)) 05:04:21 due: <3 playtesting post - what'll be the topic this week? 05:13:20 Keskitalo: The new gods. 05:13:35 Master branch on CDO updated to: 0.6.0-a1-2947-ga42752a (16.3) 05:13:38 Fabbo. :) 05:14:22 Keskitalo: You can also specify floor_tile in the actual portal. 05:14:37 Keskitalo: You can see... 05:14:52 due: The portal entry vault? I saw you do that, that is excellent. 05:15:04 Keskitalo: http://pastebin.ca/1771643 05:15:10 That's the draft. 05:15:12 che need sto change 05:15:16 And I have to write jiyva. 05:15:29 Love the title. 05:16:15 I see the religious theme continues from last week. 05:17:44 "Something you may have noticed in recent builds of trunk (and new since 0.5.2, our last stable release) ..." 05:18:07 Perhaps consendate that into "noticed since our last release"? 05:18:14 last stable release I mean. 05:19:22 Good idea. 05:20:24 -!- greensnark has joined ##crawl-dev 05:21:14 Greentings, greensnark. 05:22:16 Jiyva being most interesting is certainly subjective? ;) 05:22:29 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:23:16 due: Good stuff so far! 05:23:28 Makes me want to try out Che. 05:23:43 -!- Gretell has joined ##crawl-dev 05:23:49 -!- Henzell has joined ##crawl-dev 05:24:28 Hello 05:24:53 Hm, Henzell and Gretell are unable to join ##crawl 05:25:10 Presumably because they identify too late 05:25:30 does it still need to be +r? 05:25:47 I don't think so 05:25:51 But I don't have ops 05:25:57 ah :( 05:28:59 -!- CIA-42 has joined ##crawl-dev 05:30:21 -!- Henzell has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:30:44 -!- Henzell has joined ##crawl-dev 05:32:14 -!- Henzell has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:32:38 -!- Henzell has joined ##crawl-dev 05:33:24 Ok, I obviously am not doing the right thing to make it register first and join later 05:36:14 -!- Gretell has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:36:14 -!- Henzell has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:36:15 -!- Henzell has joined ##crawl-dev 05:38:24 -!- Henzell has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:42:47 greensnark! 05:43:18 You kill the baby alligator! :( 05:43:23 :(!!!! NO! 05:43:28 Keskitalo: Yes, definitely subjective. :) 05:43:44 But I am trying to get across that the mechanics are totally different to most other gods. 05:46:14 * Keskitalo nods 05:47:02 ooh, the new chei stuff looks cool 05:47:07 -!- Kil2 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:47:11 MarvinPA: It's not all right, though. 05:47:18 Changes havebeen made! 05:47:19 Autoexplore seems broken in Swamp, anyone to check my game? I only have shallow water in the way, yet it complains about not being able to reach places. 05:47:28 Keskitalo: Looking 05:47:45 Odd 05:47:47 It must be the monster 05:47:53 yeah, i mean the stuff that's in the commit logs 05:47:53 Try swapping places with it? 05:47:56 can you displace that mushroom 05:48:02 Weird. 05:48:02 getting resists and +AC for wearing ponderous, right? 05:48:14 tell it to wait 05:48:16 Keskitalo: try t and then w? 05:48:24 Walk left? 05:48:32 To that land bit... 05:48:41 That is *weird*. 05:48:44 greensnark around? 05:48:53 Yo 05:49:01 greensnark: Weird autoexplore thingy. 05:49:02 But I've washed my hands of autoexplore, don't ask me :P 05:49:09 :( 05:49:23 Okay, better stop ignoring my dinner guests 05:49:25 back in a bit 05:49:25 It's probably one of the brain-damaged special cases added to "improve" it :P 05:49:33 due: Cheers! :) 05:49:42 Okay, I'll do a BR and attach the save. 05:49:48 greensnark: What do you think about doing a write-up on vaults and how they work? 05:49:59 vaults, markers, etc?I think it would be interesting. 05:50:05 (Not you specifically, but us in general.) 05:50:07 MarvinPA: yes, that's in 05:50:07 +1 :) 05:50:07 It would be a small book :) 05:52:10 how do you get a friendly wandering mushroom 05:52:18 which ability or is it a gift 05:52:29 evolve a fungus 05:52:54 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 05:53:51 greensnark: It wouldn't have to be completely comprehensive, 05:54:09 can't reproduce it 05:54:44 I had an exclusion in another part of the map. I don't think it had anything to do with the mushroom, autoexplore is happy to leave allies behind. 05:55:26 I crossed the shallow water, it autoexplored fine on the other side. It might have been trying to go behind the trees or something? 05:56:38 Or rather, trying to path through the trees. 05:56:43 have you explored all areas that can be reached without crossing shallow water 05:56:44 Keskitalo: It shouldn't, though. 05:57:00 Which is why it is odd. 05:57:07 Is it something to do with the height map? 05:57:28 syllogism: Yes, looks like so. 05:57:51 try going to that other area 05:57:55 on left 05:58:31 It starts working there. I'd like to copy this save before experimenting more.. I'll set that up.. 06:01:35 -!- Timbermaw has joined ##crawl-dev 06:04:26 http://crawl.develz.org/saves/evktalo-a42752a-100130-1303.tar.bz2 06:05:37 syllogism: Ok, can continue. 06:11:27 Was this in Swamp? 06:11:31 Yeah. 06:11:34 No heightmap in Swamp after level-gen 06:12:10 It could go to shallow water to see more, but won't. 06:12:16 * greensnark is massively hacked off at having to work on Saturday :/ 06:12:28 I can't reproduce it using that save, is it a setting :P 06:12:37 explore_fail = yes 06:12:39 Interesting. :) 06:12:45 Good info. 06:13:07 You don't happen to have clean_map on by any chance? :P 06:14:31 ... 06:14:44 No, but I have travel_avoid_terrain = shallow water 06:14:49 :P 06:14:55 Hee 06:14:56 Sorry for the waste of time. 06:15:39 I can't remember why it's there. I'm usually happy to autoexplore in the Swamp. :) 06:15:46 Likewise 06:16:01 Especially now that swamp worms don't get QUAD DAMAGE in water 06:16:48 * Madtrixr does his best Quake 3 announcer impersonation when greensnark says "Quad Damage!" 06:17:47 Interesting fact: insubstantial wisps are unaffected by corona, but Sunlights gets them. 06:18:42 * greensnark proposes removing insubstantial wisps. 06:18:53 * Zaba_ supports removing insubstantial wisps 06:18:53 They cause such terrible inconsistencies! 06:18:56 Plus they suck 06:19:09 they're boringly annoying 06:19:30 -!- Zaba_ is now known as Zaba 06:19:47 Hey wait, if Zaba agrees they can't be that bad :) 06:19:48 I think that fact is ok, they're magic immune but Sunlight is a Fedhas invocation. 06:28:44 due: Do you have ops on ##crawl? 06:28:56 Can you remove the +r there so that the bots can join 06:29:16 My POE-fu is insufficient to make the bots register before they join instead of after :P 06:30:22 -!- Gretell has joined ##crawl-dev 06:30:33 -!- Henzell has joined ##crawl-dev 06:31:44 * Textmode huggles Henzell and Gretell 06:32:27 -!- AceTetra has joined ##crawl-dev 06:39:44 -!- Henzell has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:41:03 -!- Spads has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:44:42 rax: Can you -r ##crawl? :) 06:45:14 If I can figure out how to get _in_ 06:45:54 -!- Mu_ has left ##crawl-dev 06:45:57 Done. 06:45:58 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:46:19 -!- Gretell has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:46:22 -!- Henzell has joined ##crawl-dev 06:46:24 -!- Gretell has joined ##crawl-dev 06:49:06 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:50:04 -!- scarf has joined ##crawl-dev 06:55:23 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 07:04:51 greensnark, rax: Don't have ops in #Crawl, but I see you fixed it. 07:07:16 greensnark: I have a feeling we might have a shoal splat coming up with Tityrus 07:07:47 SHOAL SPLAAAT <3 07:07:59 by: Yes, I have been watching his progress with great interest <3 07:08:29 The mileage he extracted from that one alligator snapping turtle was amazing 07:09:32 Only one alligator kill. 07:09:36 !killsby alligator snapping turtle 07:09:36 3 games for * (ckiller=alligator snapping turtle): 1x MUMMY, 1x dpeg, 1x Kal 07:09:40 !killsby turtle 07:09:40 No games for * (ckiller=turtle). 07:09:46 !killsby snapping turtle 07:09:46 5 games for * (ckiller=snapping turtle): 1x Kyrris, 1x 78291, 1x greensnark, 1x DrPraetor, 1x drugrobin 07:09:52 I see one bit David. More reasons for him to hate it. 07:10:15 m00se bites are very painful, you know 07:10:53 I know this is this might be the wrong place, but What's a Shoal Splat? 07:11:25 Madtrixr: A death in the Shoals :P 07:11:30 Ah. 07:11:52 A m00se once bit my sister... 07:12:02 teleporting as a merfolk is too safe :P 07:12:16 due: We should fix the Shoal:X Shoals:X confusion. I think Shoals:X is better, what say? 07:12:30 The main display says Shoals:X, but in the xlogfile it's Shoal:X :P 07:13:04 greensnark: there was also some confusion yesterday with 'targetting' v 'targeting', which has apparently changed since 0.5 07:13:36 I think "targetting" is correct commonwealth English, but I can never remember 07:13:51 Has Tityrus met Ilsuiw yet? 07:14:16 don't know 07:14:25 !lm Tityrus type=uniq 07:14:28 I prefer Shoals. 07:14:30 1272. [2010-01-30] Tityrus the Gelid (L19 MfIE) killed Aizul on turn 76268. (Shoal:3) 07:14:39 !lm Tityrus type=uniq -tv 07:14:39 1272. Tityrus, XL19 MfIE, T:76268 (milestone) requested for FooTV. 07:14:40 It's not a single Shoal, after all, but multiple. 07:15:00 Rockin, I'll fix that 07:15:05 Just as soon as I'm done with work :/ 07:15:15 :( Work on the weekend? You addict. 07:15:36 Well, it's apparently a major bug :P 07:15:54 ilsuiw now 07:15:58 I can't even blame anybody else, which paradoxically annoys me more than having someone else to blame :P 07:16:40 Aw, how tame 07:16:55 Okay, those pesky dinner guests have left. 07:17:06 there's something wrong with decomposition in water 07:17:41 did the targeting/targetting discussion ever end up finding which is correct? 07:17:42 it should make algae 07:19:03 by: So Chei is viable for Spriggans now? 07:19:28 due: theoretically yes, though it feels thematically weird 07:19:53 by: Heh. What stats are +1 for each piece? 07:19:56 Int, str, dex? 07:20:01 Slouch will not be as useful, but other than that spriggan should have no disadvantage 07:20:06 due: yes 07:20:25 Okay, good 07:20:31 I'll try an SpVM of Chei. 07:21:10 wights should get draining on ranged attacks 07:24:10 So, 1 item of pondrous = rN + +1 to one stat. 07:24:24 Or is it 6 for rN/rC/rF +3 stats? 07:24:45 rn + +1 to each stat 07:25:16 Okay. 07:25:18 obviously, this can be tweaked; I'm not quite sure what dpeg wanted re stats 07:25:27 So +3 to each stat at the end? 07:25:47 I think there's nothing keeping you from wearing more than 3 pieces 07:26:01 But nothing to encourage you to do so. 07:26:21 no resistances, but you should get more stat boost 07:26:52 -!- scarf is now known as scarf|away 07:27:35 by: Can you check http://pastebin.ca/1771901 07:30:09 due: it's a resistance for each of the first three, and stat boost for all; I think the slow metabolism is only at *, not right when joining 07:30:34 Ahh. 07:31:03 I don't know the Slouch mechanic, but does it punish hasted monsters more than for the speed increase? 07:31:23 That's wha the description seems to indicate. 07:31:31 The ponderous support isn't passive either? 07:31:44 it's passive, yes 07:31:47 Er. 07:31:55 Isn't immediate, I meant? 07:32:10 one piece supported per * 07:32:16 what does "slows down and strengthens your metabolsm" mean? it's just slow metabolism 1, right? 07:32:29 Ahhh. 07:32:35 I think there's some effect on sickness wearing off, too 07:32:43 it doesn't appear on 'A' or '%' 07:32:44 ah ok 07:33:02 -!- scarf|away is now known as scarf 07:33:32 I keep using male pronounns for em 07:33:35 wtf me? 07:33:42 MarvinPA: what doesn't? 07:33:49 the slowed metabolism 07:34:06 well, i don't know if it should 07:34:08 It shows on ^. 07:34:10 yeah 07:34:14 It's not a mutation though, but it should be mentioned. 07:34:31 the ^ text needs updating 07:34:39 Yeah, I'll maybe do that after. 07:34:53 oh yeah, there's no piety hit for removing ponderous armour now, too? 07:35:04 * by doesn't do source/dat :) 07:35:28 by: http://pastebin.ca/1771908 07:35:33 so the FR i filed about it the other day is irrelevent now, can someone resolve/close it? 07:35:40 #604 that is 07:36:32 I think I closed it already? 07:36:35 Oh 07:38:14 -!- scarf is now known as scarf|away 07:43:13 -!- scarf|away is now known as scarf 07:47:44 night all 07:48:06 night. 07:48:13 -!- Textmode has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:48:23 -!- scarf is now known as scarf|away 07:53:33 -!- scarf|away is now known as scarf 07:56:15 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 07:56:20 Hi by. 07:56:23 ... bmh. 07:56:31 hi 07:57:31 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 07:57:38 Hey dpeg! 07:57:41 Cheers 07:57:44 hey 07:57:51 * due still writing the god run-down 07:58:03 due: Page 3/7? :) 07:58:31 1058 words so far 07:58:53 -!- scarf is now known as scarf|away 08:00:42 -!- scarf|away is now known as scarf 08:03:07 Is the run-down a wiki page? 08:04:27 due, you need 49 more thousand to win! 08:04:51 -!- Scrubber has joined ##crawl-dev 08:05:53 -!- scarf is now known as scarf|away 08:09:09 Zaba: I got 76.9k last year :) 08:11:23 -!- scarf|away is now known as scarf 08:14:53 -!- hotsun has joined ##crawl-dev 08:17:02 -!- scarf is now known as scarf|away 08:19:05 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: bmh] 08:19:42 -!- scarf|away is now known as scarf 08:21:06 http://pastebin.ca/1771946 08:21:10 I might post it tonight. 08:24:06 due: it might be worth pointing out that, despite this not being obvious from the flavour, Fedhas is *the* god for all characters using ranged attacks. 08:25:04 Yeah. 08:25:51 -!- Spads has joined ##crawl-dev 08:25:53 I am sure most players don't get Fedhas. 08:28:51 -!- TGW has joined ##crawl-dev 08:30:49 Hopefully n78291 will give the okay anad I'll post it tonight 08:33:02 -!- scarf is now known as scarf|away 08:37:25 -!- by has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:37:37 dpeg: Did this. 08:37:41 http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=283 08:37:43 And posted! 08:39:13 due: Niiice 08:39:25 greensnark: Took me all day. 08:39:53 -!- scarf|away is now known as scarf 08:41:25 Goodnight! 08:45:02 -!- scarf is now known as scarf|away 08:48:32 -!- scarf|away is now known as scarf 08:52:11 Cheibriados piety for the killing is broken (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=619) by Karagy 08:53:43 -!- scarf is now known as scarf|away 08:53:53 -!- scarf|away is now known as scarf 08:59:03 -!- scarf is now known as scarf|away 08:59:53 -!- scarf|away is now known as scarf 09:00:09 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:01:21 03greensnark * rd4f1aa480a20 10/crawl-ref/source/ (6 files in 4 dirs): Use Shoals:X instead of Shoal:X. 09:02:20 i think there should be a clearer description on potions that give you a temporary stat boost and potions that give you a permanent mutation stat boost 09:03:09 just saying which one is temporary would help a lot 09:03:21 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 09:05:23 -!- scarf is now known as scarf|away 09:09:19 hasn't gain foo been on death row for a long time? 09:12:13 -!- scarf|away is now known as scarf 09:17:19 how does chei work now? 09:17:22 -!- scarf is now known as scarf|away 09:17:43 -!- scarf|away is now known as scarf 09:18:31 03greensnark * r8c843e4cf5e5 10/crawl-ref/source/ (fight.cc fight.h): Don't combine armour and shields when reporting what made the PC miss a melee attack. 09:22:52 -!- scarf is now known as scarf|away 09:24:12 -!- hotsun has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:24:34 I'm flattered by how many commits have some variation of "As TGW said,..." 09:24:56 -!- AceTetra has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:25:33 TGW: I am slightly worried about that :P 09:25:38 (joke!) 09:25:57 today it's iguanas, tomorrow it's violent rebellion 09:27:03 -!- scarf|away is now known as scarf 09:31:34 Jesus, players. 09:33:32 I should start saying "As TGW did not say" at the beginning of each commit message? 09:33:49 :) 09:33:53 you should probably kick tgw again 09:34:01 he is whining on ##crawl 09:34:16 He can whine on ##crawl, no worries :P 09:34:23 Whining in here is what gets people kicked :D 09:34:28 * greensnark whines at dpeg. 09:34:46 dpeg: Can I have pineapples in the game?! 09:35:19 Not even NetHack has a fruit that you can throw for good damage :P 09:35:26 syllogism: about what? 09:35:28 No, seriously, the speed chance is philosophally opposed to what makes crawl crawl. It's supposed to be a game of tactics and planning, that is sacrificed when something as fundamental as how often monsters move is randomized. Random != tactics. Bye! 09:35:30 -!- Scrubber has left ##crawl-dev 09:35:40 Haha 09:35:50 I hate this guy. 09:35:53 Trolls these days don't even try :/ 09:36:00 Back in the day, we had real trolls 09:36:12 * greensnark is disappointed by these cheap plastic imitations. 09:36:15 greensnark: yes, but that was only because we lives under bridges. 09:36:22 *lived 09:36:24 "/quit No, seriously, the speed chance..." 09:37:05 I recall the words of Paul Dubois: "Working the computer gaming branch is so much fun, apart from the players." 09:37:08 I hope nobody's insinuating anything about the bridge I live under. 09:37:20 It's a good bridge, and there are a lot of good things to eat that try to cross it 09:38:57 <3 09:42:41 Can Mara be permanently enslaved in any way? 09:42:56 I want to give him the ability to clone monsters as well as the player with summon illusions :P 09:43:04 Just for the FightClub hilarity :P 09:44:15 !tell due 08:42 < Sticking> oh god mara 09:44:15 greensnark: OK, I'll let due know. 09:44:34 Only the best uniques get that kind of reception :) 09:46:11 -!- murphy_slaw has joined ##crawl-dev 09:46:14 I must remember to make Mara's monster illusions also share all enchantments 09:46:30 Just so that one day someone using BiA on him gets a hilarious surprise 09:47:36 hehe 09:49:55 -!- TGW is now known as TGWi 09:56:02 I think the only way to perma enslave Mara is by first porkalating him and then using control demons. Not sure if you can actually get control demons though and porkalated creatures don't keep their abilities 09:57:02 Ok, awesome 09:57:32 !tell by Do we still get piety for killing monsters faster than the player? I am a Mi with ponderous boots right now, and killing imps or orcs gives no piety statements, at least. 09:57:32 dpeg: OK, I'll let by know. 09:57:51 it's not for relative speed anymore 09:57:55 A good way to test the troll-ness of Scrubber is checking if he plays. 09:58:00 MarvinPA: but? 09:58:06 it's absolute speed, fast monsters give you piety 09:58:14 more piety the faster it is 09:58:15 -!- by has joined ##crawl-dev 09:58:28 and if it has swiftness/haste/whatever spells, it gives you piety too 10:00:28 i think maybe that means you'll still get piety if you use bend time to slow down a naturally fast monster? 10:00:33 not certain though 10:03:39 I love the new message window behaviour 10:03:46 heh, if you temporarily enslave mara, he'll a summon friendly player illusion though <3 10:05:44 Don't worry, I'm fixing that :P 10:06:02 he seemed to be attacking me though :P 10:06:04 He'll only clone his actual foes :P 10:06:53 hmhm 10:07:01 MarvinPA: hm, but this completely changes what ponderous is good for. 10:07:04 I enslaved mara but he threw a bolt of fire at me. 10:07:09 I am not convinced, and I never meant it like that. 10:07:23 it makes ponderous good for slouch, and for getting the extra resists i guess? 10:07:40 and +stats 10:07:50 dpeg: that was the point, no? 10:08:07 !tell by Okay, this seems intentional :) However, when I said "compare base movement speeds", I meant to include ponderous. Gaining piety from being slow is good, we just don't want players to scum it. 10:08:07 dpeg: OK, I'll let by know. 10:08:40 sorry, didn't realise you're here 10:08:57 by: how do you gain piety with trunk che? 10:09:09 kill inherently faster-than-average monsters 10:09:10 by: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 10:09:24 !messages 10:09:24 (1/2) dpeg said (11m 52s ago): Do we still get piety for killing monsters faster than the player? I am a Mi with ponderous boots right now, and killing imps or orcs gives no piety statements, at least. 10:09:26 !messages 10:09:27 (1/1) dpeg said (1m 19s ago): Okay, this seems intentional :) However, when I said "compare base movement speeds", I meant to include ponderous. Gaining piety from being slow is good, we just don't want players to scum it. 10:09:33 by: that means rather little piety gain... 10:09:58 it may need balancing; I thought that was what you wanted 10:10:09 no, we misunderstood - I apologise 10:10:22 I reverted all the piety-hit-for-removing-ponderous 10:10:28 it doesn't decay over time, though, does it? 10:10:36 no, zero decay 10:10:54 also, you can get up to 4 piety (killing a speed 30 monster) 10:11:10 i was hoping to get my mdfi of chei to the hive and then get a bunch of piety there from eating permafood, too 10:11:13 The innate problem with slow piety gain (no matter which god) is that you'll be really reluctant to use any powers. 10:11:48 To me, going Che, ponderousifying something, and gaining piety from that sounds exactly right. 10:11:53 it need not be slow -- there's so many fast monsters around; the amount of piety per monster can be tweaked 10:12:18 dpeg: that's what I started with: I implemented the piety hit for removing ponderous armour to remove the scummability 10:12:18 hm, seems I am alone in this 10:12:26 What's the magic order in which mon-data.h should be sorted :P 10:12:35 I want to create a new monster type for player illusions 10:12:44 That will be undead or demonic if the player is undead or demonspawn 10:13:08 by: yes, removing that was good 10:13:09 dpeg: I got the impression that you were unhappy with that change, and wanted to do things entirely differently, perhaps because some people had complained? 10:13:38 people always complain 10:13:48 That is the one constant in life :) 10:13:55 -!- ChanServ has quit [shutting down] 10:14:02 (complained to you, not to me) 10:15:01 the discussion that ensued after the piety hit left me guessing that a) some people were unhappy with it and b) you wanted a different approach 10:15:29 by: I didn't get around sorting my thoughts on how to prevent scumming. But getting more piety the slower you are was always the unchangeable foundation :) 10:15:53 the stat boost and resistances for wearing ponderous I thought were to make up for not having them give you piety anymore 10:15:58 For example, the more ponderous you are, the more likely you will be to need god powers. So you should have more piety to do that. 10:16:19 by: no, they were supposed to be an extra incentive, so prove "slow=good". 10:17:40 I am confident I can come up with a simple mechanic that makes armour switching prior to kills unfeasible. I just need some time. 10:18:30 so in the end do you want the piety hit for removing ponderous or not? 10:19:03 -!- Twinge-- has joined ##crawl-dev 10:21:25 -!- Twinge has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:23:38 by: no, a different solution 10:23:39 -!- Timbermaw has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:23:59 I do want some piety gain for the movement speed difference (player-monster), including ponderous 10:24:09 just make it like gourmand but faster, could even be 10 turns 10:26:15 not that I think it's very feasible to switch armour prior to kills 10:26:40 I agree, this is also why I think a solution will be easy to find and should be much less drastic than the piety/3 hit. 10:32:41 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 10:33:08 dpeg: the mechanic for boosting ponderous armour is in now; I'll leave the rest to others 10:34:18 by: yes, I used that. 10:34:39 Could we get the piety from killing slower monsters? No idea who else to ask. 10:35:12 -!- Twinge-- has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:39:04 sorry, got to leave 10:39:46 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: hurry] 10:40:38 -!- Timbermaw has joined ##crawl-dev 10:42:45 03by * r2597c232fd72 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-util.cc: Revert "Give Che piety for monsters with hasty spells." 10:42:48 03by * r0dc473ac3f16 10/crawl-ref/source/ (godconduct.cc mon-stuff.cc): Revert "Use mons_fastness() to determine Che piety gain." 10:42:48 03by * r3a5da6b93f02 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-util.cc mon-util.h): Revert "Convert mons_is_fast to mons_fastness." 10:43:58 this must be what writing software for a living is like: people tell you to code something, and it turns out they wanted something quite different :) 10:46:29 by: Absolutely 10:46:49 that's why we have agile! 10:47:54 programmer and customers, they just don't understand each other 10:54:49 I can't say I'm sure why make ponderous has a chance to fail 11:02:28 TGWi: I don't either 11:05:00 ...or why it has an mp cost 11:06:02 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:09:14 -!- Timbermaw has quit [Quit: later!] 11:11:29 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 11:19:19 -!- Giomancer has joined ##crawl-dev 11:19:54 -!- Mu_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:20:57 baileys are kind of crazy with meph. I just got 2500 xp in 40 turns 11:21:08 at xl9 11:21:31 -!- elly has quit [Changing host] 11:21:31 -!- elly has joined ##crawl-dev 11:23:21 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:23:58 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 11:34:45 -!- raydarken has joined ##crawl-dev 11:37:26 You feel you are being watched by something. 11:37:26 You suddenly lose the ability to move! 11:37:26 --more-- 11:37:26 You can move again. 11:37:41 this seems like an invisible giant eye? 11:37:49 behind a wall 11:37:56 Conjure flame text displays (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=620) by Timbermaw 11:37:57 there's a br 11:38:22 or at least a comment 11:38:29 hmm, will try wizmode 11:40:29 -!- Twinge-- has joined ##crawl-dev 11:41:21 -!- Twinge has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:42:16 -!- raydarken has left ##crawl-dev 11:42:45 yeah, they can stare at you through walls 11:42:58 i was going to file a seperate report but it seemed related to smiting-through-walls 11:44:15 -!- raydarken has joined ##crawl-dev 11:44:18 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 11:46:18 -!- Twinge-- has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:48:10 When I was in tomb:3 it seemed like something in one of the loot chambers was summoning things at me through the wall, seems like the same thing 11:50:45 Hey, the debug_stethoscope was blown away by the targeting prompt changes? 11:50:50 It was so useful :/ 11:51:17 xD ? 11:51:26 it's annoying though 11:51:40 Ok, xD works, thanks 11:57:22 03by * rb2dc39ecddf1 10/crawl-ref/source/ (actor.cc monster.cc): Initialize actor::changed_los_center to true. 11:57:32 by: was that the bug 11:57:46 -!- jld has joined ##crawl-dev 11:58:04 syllogism: I hope; wasn't able to reproduce in wizard mode 11:58:59 also, saving and restoring fixed it for me, which kind of points in that direction 12:01:43 -!- elly has quit [Quit: brb ssl] 12:03:28 @chei's resists: I don't like that they're ordered 12:04:00 * greensnark is annoyed by arena bookkeeping. 12:04:22 It contaminates other code unnecessarily :P 12:04:33 -!- Twinge-- has joined ##crawl-dev 12:05:29 I get that they're in order of rarity, but it doesn't feel right 12:06:18 wearing 1-2 pondered items is basically a joke (I move like a naga and all I get is rC rN?) 12:06:35 also +2 to all stats, right? 12:06:45 sure, but how much is that worth? 12:06:54 -!- elly has joined ##crawl-dev 12:07:09 -!- Twinge has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:07:35 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 12:08:51 It seems to me that resistances, especially rN and somewhat rC, are too niche to keep people from swapping pondered armour (like the move away from piety-by-relative slowness was supposed to prevent) 12:09:13 increasing defenses sounds like it would work better 12:09:30 -!- Twinge-- has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:10:56 -!- Twinge-- has joined ##crawl-dev 12:13:41 -!- Twinge has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:13:44 -!- jld has quit [Quit: Changing server] 12:15:15 how do you do signatures on the wiki? 12:15:42 I'm trying to give my feedback on the speed randomisation change 12:15:59 it's one of those buttons 12:16:21 rightmost 12:16:34 I see no buttons 12:16:39 although I have javascript turned off 12:16:41 syllogism: How does a normal player check if a red monster is berserk? :) 12:16:47 what's the syntax? 12:16:50 Apart from the mlist 12:16:55 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 12:17:04 -!- Twinge-- has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:17:20 meh, I'll just write one by hand 12:18:03 -!- ogaz has joined ##crawl-dev 12:18:12 -!- jld has joined ##crawl-dev 12:18:49 -!- Madtrixr has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:19:29 anyway, summary: the randomisation actually makes pillar dancing better rather than worse 12:20:01 wuhu, pillar dancing means crawl goes angband :-) 12:20:29 greensnark: I guess they don't 12:20:38 * greensnark smacks bhaak with a trout for saying the "A" word. 12:20:52 syllogism: Do you think Mara being able to clone Antaeus and Cerebov is too strong? :P 12:21:11 -!- Twinge-- has joined ##crawl-dev 12:21:12 do they have to be in LOS? :P 12:21:25 Well, in his LOS, not yours :P 12:21:27 hmm, trout. Thanks, I didn't know what to eat for diner :) 12:21:49 Doesn't seem like it would happen very often :P 12:22:00 Yeah, so I think I'll go ahead and leave it in :P 12:22:14 If he clones the player and the player is berserk, the clone will also be berserk now :P 12:22:42 -!- Twinge-- has quit [Client Quit] 12:23:00 -!- Twinge has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:23:08 Oh, heh, berserk monsters have a cute overlay in tiles 12:24:57 03greensnark * reb06c7ae729d 10/crawl-ref/source/ (24 files): Allow Mara to clone any foe, not just the player. 12:25:30 does he prioritize the player 12:25:46 He uses it only on his direct foe, and that's usually stuck on the player 12:25:53 ah 12:25:55 You can distract him with summons if you try 12:26:01 Like BiA :P 12:26:11 Unfortunately BiA usually kill him before he can clone them :P 12:28:09 Dorok wizlab: 'dark (black) wall with strange markings' tiles (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=621) by Porkchop 12:28:14 -!- by has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:28:46 Now to convince jpeg to allow Crusading uniques :P 12:28:55 and demons :( 12:29:03 :P 12:29:06 I don't think I can make both happen :P 12:29:24 If it does happen, we'll have to cripple summon illusion :/ 12:29:57 -!- by has joined ##crawl-dev 12:31:34 Hm 12:31:43 What happens if enslavement wears off on a hostile monster :P 12:32:55 nothing? :P 12:33:59 Hm, I think I need to fix Mara cloning enslaved monsters :P 12:34:10 He'll currently clone it and it'll still be enslaved, if I'm reading this right :P 12:34:11 oh 12:34:20 I'll try :P 12:36:41 Try creating him with Mara spells:summon_illusion so he doesn't waste his time with other junk 12:38:03 hmm he seems to still target the player? 12:38:11 oh there we go 12:38:24 Until he switches foe he'll target the player 12:38:26 sigh, my illusion ice stormed the enslaved clone on the next turn :P 12:38:38 before I could check the status 12:38:41 Why did you memorise ice storm :P 12:38:49 it was an old save :P 12:39:38 I need a spell of mass enslavement :P 12:39:57 yes it's charmed 12:40:20 Aha! Thanks :) 12:40:50 03greensnark * r8e0fc9e6af18 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-clone.cc: Delete unsuitable enchantments from Mara-cloned monsters. 12:40:57 ench: summon (-10000:2147483647), abj (6:1648), charm (0:4) 12:41:05 @??Mara 12:41:05 Mara (13R) | Speed: 10 | HD: 18 | Health: 140 | AC/EV: 10/14 | Damage: 30 | Flags: 05demonic, evil, see invisible | Res: 06magic(144), 05fire++, 03poison | XP: 7145 | Sp: mislead, mara summon, b.fire, illusion, pain, teleport self. 12:41:21 I've forced it to delete enslavement ench now 12:41:49 what's up with that summon duration 12:41:54 or whatever that is :P 12:42:03 That's some kind of weird marker enchantment 12:42:09 Added not too long ago 12:42:13 abj is the actual duration 12:42:19 164 turns :P 12:43:47 I think the 'summon' marker is there to simplify handling of monsters as the summon counter expires 12:44:12 Previously you had to remember that the monster had 'abj', because once you delete 'abj' it looks just like a non-summoned monster 12:44:46 if you enslave mara and he then clones himself, the clones remain friendly after charm expires :P 12:44:50 and he'll summon more 12:44:58 Oh :P 12:45:05 Naughty due :P 12:45:22 Mara weaves an illusion 12:45:22 Mara appears confused. 12:45:39 Mara misleads you. 12:45:39 Mara appears confused. 12:45:53 What's up with that? :P 12:46:02 It's very confusing at the very least :P 12:47:58 an enslaved Mara cloned an enemy and it was hostile to me :( 12:48:14 :D 12:48:32 now it cloned my clone :P 12:48:38 <3 12:48:51 How do you know it cloned your clone :P 12:49:00 I'm the original :P 12:49:03 Did you get the right messages? :) 12:49:19 Thanks for the bug reports, I should nail these 12:49:57 @?? mara 12:49:57 Mara (13R) | Speed: 10 | HD: 18 | Health: 140 | AC/EV: 10/14 | Damage: 30 | Flags: 05demonic, evil, see invisible | Res: 06magic(144), 05fire++, 03poison | XP: 7145 | Sp: mislead, mara summon, b.fire, illusion, pain, teleport self. 12:50:12 you almost require a scroll of vulnerability to actually enslave mara 12:50:34 Yes, but still the edge cases need fixing :) 12:55:58 Do the friendly clones summon other clones when not fighting? 12:56:07 If they do maybe I'll just leave that as is 12:56:19 *if they don't 12:56:20 they don't have the spell 12:56:29 Oh, cool 12:56:48 They don't clone the player directly, right? :P 12:56:51 When friendly 12:57:01 mara clones? 12:57:14 or the real one 12:57:40 doesn't seem to 12:58:07 but for some reason enslaved mara sometimes seems to randomly attack you :P 12:58:08 Ok, cool, working as normal then 12:58:16 Melee? 12:58:22 Or beam? 12:58:25 beam 12:58:31 with no enemies in LOS 12:58:36 Oh 12:58:39 Funny 12:58:40 it is bolt of firing me 12:58:52 Do other monsters do that? 12:58:56 Like a lindwurm, say? 12:59:24 doesn't look like it 12:59:35 well I do get tracer spam 13:00:25 Interesting 13:00:33 It shouldb't be trying to cast spells without a foe 13:02:15 oh if I don't tell it to attack something, it targets me by default 13:02:32 There was a check to not do that for friendlies 13:02:43 Let me see what's broken 13:03:13 Presumably Mara is firing where the lindwurm didn't because demonic things like to occasionally hit the player and say "Oops!" :P 13:04:01 -!- raydarken has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:04:04 Now it doesn't seem to be doing it with no enemy around, maybe previously there was one behind a wall or something 13:04:19 03greensnark * r9b6df87a5f84 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-clone.cc: Don't let Mara clone player illusions (when enslaved), fix attitude for monsters cloned by enslaved Mara (syllogism). 13:04:46 -!- raydarken has joined ##crawl-dev 13:08:51 I need to disable the + thing for arena 13:10:34 03greensnark * reef60edaee59 10/crawl-ref/source/message.cc: Don't show more() prompts for arena. 13:13:30 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:16:05 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 13:19:27 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 13:21:31 03greensnark * r7fbd0fab720e 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-clone.cc: Fix capitalization when Mara uses summon illusion on another monster. 13:35:21 Hey, the gentleman who complained about energy randomisation also posted on SA :P 13:36:15 did he complain on the wiki? 13:36:50 Of course not 13:37:01 Well, I didn't check :) 13:37:11 Apparently not :P 13:38:30 " 13:38:30 Why the hell are they making changes to a core aspects of the game that nobody has complained about instead of fixing something like the disparity between AC and EV or the disparity between STR, INT, and DEX? 13:38:36 "Pillar dancing isn't an "issue", it's one of the core skills of the game." 13:38:39 that was a quote :P 13:40:47 i was surprised that it took that long for somethingawful to start whining about the speed change 13:41:16 well most of them play offline so they've to wait until someone compiles a tiles build for them 13:41:30 of course none of them have actually played it yet in this case :P 13:43:21 -!- Siber has quit [Quit: Whoa! Partial hit!] 13:43:45 I think I agree with ais523's comments on the wiki 13:44:17 -!- murphy_slaw has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:44:20 yep, the problem with the speed change is that it isn't actually accomplishing what it set out to achieve 13:45:12 from my perspective, if it set out to achieve anything, that is making monster movement less predictable; I'd say it's accomplished that :) 13:45:40 by: Agreed 13:45:46 scarf: though it wasn't really the goal to "nerf" pillar dancing, just make it take less time and/or dangerous 13:47:03 scarf: it certainly does affect kiting 13:47:21 of course if you don't know the new system works it can be very confusing 13:47:23 doy: maybe we're using different words for the tactic 13:47:29 I think that's a problem 13:47:38 to me, kiting is hanging 3/4 squares away from a monster, running when it moves near, firing the rest of the time 13:47:39 syllogism: what do you mean? 13:47:50 I don't see how the speed changes affect that either way 13:47:53 doy: new players won't understand why monsters are moving erratically 13:47:58 scarf: ah, yeah, that's not what i'm referring to 13:48:05 oh, what are you referring to? 13:48:07 scarf: i'm referring to melee kiting 13:48:09 syllogism: isn't it rather old players? 13:48:27 syllogism: new players won't know that it's ever been different 13:48:27 doy: ah, like you do against mumaks in NetHack? 13:48:33 scarf: or mimics, yeah 13:48:37 by: well both then 13:48:58 doy: again, that's one of the things that I thought wasn't even possible in Crawl because the devs would probably have thought of it already 13:49:14 scarf: if pillar dancing is possible, melee kiting is possible 13:49:39 not really, melee kiting you do against slower monsters, pillar dancing against equally fast monsters 13:49:51 scarf: yes, but the same principle applies 13:50:18 melee kiting is just pillar dancing except where you hit the monster a couple times each move 13:50:35 I can easily imagine one being possible but not the other 13:50:37 they both rely on constant and predictable monster movement speed 13:50:45 regardless 13:50:53 time to go home, anyway 13:50:56 -!- scarf has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:51:30 syllogism: i don't think the concept of "monsters don't move at a precisely constant speed" is all that hard to grasp 13:51:46 maybe, but that's the expectation 13:51:54 pillar dancing is a core aspect of the game that nobody's complained about? 13:52:10 and once you actually play it a little bit, it's pretty apparent what's going on 13:52:14 TGWi: people are dumb 13:52:29 also what doy said pertaining to "people will figure it out" 13:52:58 i'm pretty sure the majority of useless whining is coming from people who have barely even tried it out, if at all 13:54:15 energy changes didn't bother me nearly as much as all my shit getting inscribed with 'was cursed' 13:55:53 :P 13:56:49 {was worn, tried, was cursed} 13:57:46 {is still not cursed}, {nope, not recursed yet!}, {curse count:0.0} 13:58:07 basically all of scarf (ais523)'s complaints on the wiki seem to be just because he's never actually played crawl before this much 13:58:19 and doesn't seem to realize that all of the stuff he's saying was true before too 13:58:50 "you can let a monster hit you to get a space between you now", "melee are better on cramped levels, ranged are better on open levels now" 13:58:54 etc 13:59:43 getting a space only worked against monsters with slow weapons before 13:59:59 it still only works against slow monsters 14:00:19 if you get a space between you and a non-slow monster, that space will likely go away just as quickly 14:00:22 true, it doesn't help to melee to get the space 14:02:46 but it's true you should run one hit earlier 14:07:34 -!- by has quit [Quit: night] 14:13:06 -!- pointless_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:15:21 we need a unique snapping turtle that makes rude remarks about you 14:16:46 we could call it donald 14:17:09 we could make donald a snapping turtle I guess 14:17:36 If donald was a turtle his ampibiousness would make sense 14:17:42 wait what 14:17:43 @??donald 14:17:43 Donald (02@) | Speed: 10 | HD: 14 | Health: 84 | AC/EV: 3/10 | Damage: 26 | Flags: amphibious | Res: 06magic(93) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 2423. 14:17:45 heh 14:17:52 ... 14:18:05 I think it's supposed to be donald duck or something for some reason 14:18:09 "but guys, donald is like donald duck!" is the reasoning there 14:18:12 yes it's a donald duck reference 14:18:46 that's way less funny than making him snap at you 14:19:21 who's got the sweetest disposition... 14:19:26 TGWi: well if you want him to be a turtle you have to convince due to make that change 14:20:17 not likely to happen! 14:20:18 (: 14:20:21 "Donatello"? :P 14:20:44 FR: rename donald to Donatello, change species to snapping turtle 14:20:47 nah, michelangelo was the whiny one 14:21:09 I thought that was Rafael 14:21:11 raphael was the snappy one 14:21:13 Been a while though 14:21:37 !tell due you should make donald a snapping turtle because it's a pun (also because he's currently a boring human with unjustified amphibiousnes) 14:21:37 TGWi: OK, I'll let due know. 14:21:45 +s 14:22:17 Perfect way to annoy due when he checks in in the morning :P 14:23:09 is he out for the day, then? 14:23:33 It's early morning his time 14:23:50 what time would that be? 14:24:03 One of the australian timezones, don't know which 14:24:25 He's our sole representative from the Land of Linley 14:24:32 I actually had no idea 14:26:19 greensnark did you ever get a chance to look at validate and subvaults 14:26:30 Mu_: Tomorrow :) 14:26:34 \o/ 14:27:01 sorry to keep asking 14:27:24 No trouble, I want to get to it anyway, if only to figure out how subvaults work 14:27:33 heh 14:27:37 But it'll take some digging, so not tonight :P 14:38:32 Is eyeballs paralyzing through rock walls considered a bug? 14:39:11 yes, rob may have fixed it earlier 14:39:36 by * rb2dc39ecddf1 /crawl-ref/source/ (actor.cc monster.cc): Initialize actor::changed_los_center to true. 14:52:02 -!- Siber has joined ##crawl-dev 14:55:55 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 14:58:47 Issuing "attack" command to allies does not show cursor until you move it (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=622) by LoginError 15:04:01 -!- pointless_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:15:35 -!- Giomancer has quit [Quit: On the other hand, you have different fingers.] 15:24:18 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:27:35 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 15:34:05 -!- nrook has joined ##crawl-dev 15:54:01 Inscribing on daggers causes inscrition to appear in the wrong place (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=623) by LoginError 16:11:20 um 16:11:30 a trap just shot me twice, and I never moved 16:12:13 this appears to happen when transforms end 16:14:06 "This book is beyond your current level of understanding" promotes spoilers (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=624) by Core Xii 16:19:07 Trap hits me twice as ice form ends (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=625) by TGW 16:38:28 -!- Timbermaw has joined ##crawl-dev 16:39:12 Elyvilon bug - neutral creatures (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=626) by Timbermaw 16:39:53 :) 16:55:18 -!- Timbermaw has quit [*.net *.split] 16:55:18 -!- nrook has quit [*.net *.split] 16:55:21 -!- CIA-42 has quit [*.net *.split] 16:55:30 -!- ogaz has quit [*.net *.split] 16:55:30 -!- elly has quit [*.net *.split] 16:55:31 -!- eith has quit [*.net *.split] 16:55:32 -!- TGWi has quit [*.net *.split] 16:55:34 -!- syllogism has quit [*.net *.split] 16:55:34 -!- Eronarn has quit [*.net *.split] 16:55:35 -!- violetj has quit [*.net *.split] 16:55:36 -!- mspang has quit [*.net *.split] 16:55:37 -!- doy has quit [*.net *.split] 16:55:39 -!- cbus has quit [*.net *.split] 16:55:39 -!- lorimer has quit [*.net *.split] 16:55:42 -!- st__ has quit [*.net *.split] 16:55:50 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timeout: 248 seconds] 18:13:38 -!- raydarken has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:14:48 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 18:15:06 -!- Kil2 has joined ##crawl-dev 18:16:18 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 18:18:30 -!- Twinge- has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:19:40 -!- Twinge- has joined ##crawl-dev 18:22:18 -!- Twinge has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:22:24 -!- raydarken has joined ##crawl-dev 18:33:20 -!- Textmode has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:33:44 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 18:39:09 Morning 18:39:09 due: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 18:39:12 !messaged 18:39:13 !messages 18:39:13 (1/2) greensnark said (8h 54m 58s ago): 08:42 < Sticking> oh god mara 18:39:15 !messages 18:39:16 (1/1) TGWi said (4h 17m 39s ago): you should make donald a snapping turtle because it's a pun (also because he's currently a boring human with unjustified amphibiousnes) 18:39:27 morning, due! 18:39:34 No :) 18:39:42 Talking non-sentient uniques are not alloiwed. 18:39:49 awww 18:39:49 I'm still surprised I got away with Gastronok. 18:40:13 due: greensnark suggested a rename to donatello to go along with that 18:40:13 (: 18:40:21 solves that issue! 18:41:54 Ahaha. No. :) 18:41:59 hehe 18:42:03 you're no fun at all :[ 18:42:29 yup 18:42:37 hey, agnes is a grey snake 18:42:45 anaconda* 18:47:10 greensnark: <3 18:47:48 it's implied that everyone constantly <3s greensnark 18:48:20 eb06c7a 18:52:42 -!- purge has joined ##crawl-dev 18:54:41 hmmm, did varmin not survive the great netsplit? 18:54:51 i want to see that commit in action! 19:09:51 slime creatures tiles : intermediate3 and new titanic (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=627) by Porkchop 19:35:16 * due eats doy in action. 19:39:38 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:42:36 due: neutral creatures shouldn't attack the player or allies! they were pacified! no thoughts on that? 19:43:40 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 19:47:49 Is Joseph ever a real threat? He has no armor and an unenchanted war axe when I found him; seems really weak for the xp he gives. (in other words, making sure I'm not missing anything before tagging him for lower xp) 19:48:32 Timbermaw: Neutral creatures attack *everyone*. 19:50:09 @??joseph 19:50:09 Joseph (10@) | Speed: 10 | HD: 7 | Health: 66 | AC/EV: 0/10 | Damage: 9 | Res: 06magic(46) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 806. 19:50:28 He should probably show up earlier. 19:51:24 10-13 at the minnute 19:51:28 7-12 might be interestingg. 19:51:34 @??harold 19:51:34 Harold (09@) | Speed: 10 | HD: 9 | Health: 76 | AC/EV: 0/8 | Damage: 12 | Flags: spellcaster | Res: 06magic(60) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 1238 | Sp: b.fire, blink. 19:51:44 He shows up the same areas as Harold does, and is easier. 19:52:00 Nergalle should also show up earlier. 19:52:26 -!- Iainuki_ has joined ##crawl-dev 19:55:30 @??hydra 19:55:30 hydra (09D) | Speed: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 13 | Health: 39-104 | AC/EV: 0/5 | Damage: 18 per head | Flags: amphibious | Res: 06magic(52), 03poison | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 1214. 19:55:31 @??ogre 19:55:32 ogre (07O) | Speed: 10 | HD: 5 | Health: 15-40 | AC/EV: 1/6 | Damage: 17 | Res: 06magic(20) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 120. 19:55:50 Yeah, definitely should be earlier. 19:55:57 I'm thinking 7-12. 19:56:14 Three pages to summarise. :/ 19:56:20 Joseph seems like a lower damage ogre with triple the hp and little more going for him. Is there a reasonably high chance he spawns with good stuff he didn't this game? 19:56:26 7-12 sounds good 19:56:48 * due checks. 19:57:03 He gets the same weapons as skele warriors. 19:57:13 Oh, hmm. Always no armor? 19:57:14 So he can get some nice kit. 19:57:23 No, only a chance of armour. 19:57:30 2 chances in 5. 19:57:40 Ah. So I got the weakest equipment option basically, hehe 19:58:01 @??skeletal warrior 19:58:01 skeletal warrior (10z) | Speed: 10 | HD: 10 | Health: 50-80 | AC/EV: 15/10 | Damage: 25 | Flags: 07undead, evil | Res: 06magic(93), 02cold, 03poison | XP: 814 | Sp: animate dead. 19:58:34 15AC, Similar HP, more damage, more resistance, and the sampe XP ;O 19:59:34 03due * re800d42887db 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/builder/uniques.des: Tweak Joseph's placement. 20:01:46 So down a bit surely, hmm... 806->~604, probably 20:01:55 Yeah. 20:02:02 Pikel's needs to come down to 600 or 700 or so. 20:02:20 @??pikel 20:02:20 Pikel (02K) | Speed: 10 | HD: 6 | Health: 40 | AC/EV: 4/12 | Damage: 9 | Res: 06magic(24) | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 983. 20:02:25 Can you make it 700? 20:02:58 -!- syllogism has quit [] 20:03:29 I wanted to make it about 800 before, but everyone complained and wanted to keep it high, so I only went like 1050->980 so far. 20:04:13 He should also theoretically become more of a threat if the pack ai is improved to keep his slaves with him and after you 20:04:22 as planned 20:04:42 But yeah, I would like to drop him further, if people will agree to it 20:04:45 I thin kso 20:04:50 Because pack changes will not happen before 0.6 20:04:52 -!- Twinge- is now known as Twinge 20:04:56 And currently people just treat him as free XP. 20:05:02 600 should be okay. 20:05:02 Ah. Thought they were going to make it. 20:05:28 Not likely, unfortunaately. 20:08:09 What range does he appear on and what equipment can he come with? 20:09:24 I don't think Pikel should give experience for breaking the spell 20:09:54 you can bring him up a level, get a buttload of exp and dump him 20:10:21 ...He gives XP for just breaking the spell?? 20:10:27 he does now 20:11:27 Hm 20:11:32 Shouldn't 20:11:43 His slaves are MF_NO_EXP_GAIN. 20:11:45 That's a bug then. 20:13:19 TGWi: Plese file, I'll look at it when I'm finished this post. 20:13:31 it's almost definitely not a bug 20:13:41 considering there's a message and everything 20:13:52 ... 20:13:54 I programmed him. 20:13:56 It is a bug. 20:14:02 You should not get EXP just for breaking the spell. 20:15:41 The times I've met pikel he certainly hasn't been bfree XP. 20:15:43 Did someone else recently tweak him by chance? Might double check the commit log 20:15:55 due: more likely a hijacking 20:16:02 will search commits 20:16:25 Siber: So you've found him to be a threat? I haven't encountered him much myself to really say 20:16:45 he is a threat, just maybe not 900some exp 20:17:18 Sure. I'd have to check the logs to see who all wanted to keep his XP high, but it was at least 2 or 3 people, and I think it included like sorear or someone 20:17:47 TGWi: The point is that his XP is inflated 20:17:52 because his slaves are no XP gain 20:17:56 so the pacification should not be giving you exp 20:18:09 @??slave 20:18:09 slave (16@) | Speed: 10 | HD: 5 | Health: 15-40 | AC/EV: 2/12 | Damage: 10 | Res: 06magic(20) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 130. 20:18:14 due: I can find no mention of this 20:18:14 @??pikel 20:18:14 Pikel (02K) | Speed: 10 | HD: 6 | Health: 40 | AC/EV: 4/12 | Damage: 9 | Res: 06magic(24) | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 983. 20:18:27 Then it's a bug in mons_pacify that doesn't check MF_EXP_GAIN. 20:18:30 but I find it incredibly hard to believe it's a bug, so I'm going to file next time I see pikel 20:18:39 ... 20:18:44 TGWi. For. God's. Sake. 20:19:23 Never mind, I fixed it already. 20:20:01 Twinge: I was wondering how I got 1000 exp out of killing Pikel last time. 20:20:09 You get 130 * 5 / 2 + 983. 20:20:34 Wha? 20:20:49 mons_pacify is called for each of his slaves 20:21:00 That means you get half their base EXP added to your EXP for it 20:21:10 ...Er? 20:21:18 When you pacify a monster, you get half of its EXP. 20:21:18 oh, hah 20:21:28 Pikel's neutralise specifically pacifies, without checks, each of th eslaves. 20:21:28 Nobody told me that. The whole reason his XP is so high is because his slaves give you ZERO exp 20:21:38 according to both you and sorear ;P 20:21:39 Yees 20:21:44 mons_pacify doesn't obey MF_NO_REWARD 20:21:51 which is why not killing the slaves means you get more EXP out of it. 20:23:06 Pikel's slaves are MF_NO_REWARD 20:23:15 Pikel's EXP gain is modified because of this 20:23:21 when you kill pikel, mons_pacify is called on each of his slaves 20:23:31 mons_pacify doesn't obey MF_NO_REWARD, and gives you EXP/2 for each slave anyway 20:23:54 So if you kill a slave, you get no EXP; if you don't kill any, and then kill Pikel, you get 130 * each slave remaining (5) / 2 from mons_pacify 20:24:11 PLUS 983 for Pikel, based on the inflated EXP rate. 20:24:41 It is a bug. mons_pacify should've obeyed MF_NO_REWARD, which is an assumption I had made that seemed to be incorrect. 20:24:42 03due * r298091812860 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-util.cc: Don't give EXP/2 for pacified MF_NO_REWARD monsters. 20:24:53 Huh. 20:25:18 So like, he was giving like 1375 exp originally? ;O 20:25:22 Yes. 20:25:27 Though actually, i LIKE the idea of pacify not pobeying that 20:25:28 I did wonder how it ended up being so high 20:25:39 No, pacify not obeying it is bad. 20:25:40 That seems kinda cool amost - more exp for not killing off the slaves 20:25:44 Because it obeys summoning laws. 20:26:12 So you're getting 1308 *now* for killing Pikel. 20:26:25 I actually say 1000 exp going into my pool and I said "huh, I thought we'd change dthat" last time I killed him. 20:26:38 I see. 20:28:05 sorear: Thoughts on lowering Pikel's XP more? 20:30:48 * due for it. 20:30:51 Oh side note - wasn't submerging changed up? I thought stuff like basic fish weren't supposed to constantly submerge and hide when moderately injured like they used to? 20:31:02 Thast hasn't changed recently. 20:31:47 due: It was you and sorear that were primarily against lowering it before, so I figured I should check in with him as well. I'm thinking 700ish right now. 20:32:03 Ah. Thought I'd heard something about that; I guess it was like the water movement stuff 20:32:37 I was against it 20:32:41 but now that I've fought him a few times 20:32:44 he isn't that difficult 20:32:53 and I feel that the exp gain you get out of him is unfairly biased 20:32:58 500 or 600 exp is more reasonable. 20:33:04 @??big kobold 20:33:04 big kobold (08K) | Speed: 10 | HD: 5 | Health: 15-40 | AC/EV: 3/12 | Damage: 7 | Res: 06magic(20) | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 131. 20:33:09 his base exp is only 130 20:33:24 130 * 6 = 780 anyway 20:33:35 which is what you'd get if his slaves weren't MF_NO_REWARD and you killed them all 20:33:47 so 600 or so. 20:33:59 @??Pikel 20:33:59 Pikel (02K) | Speed: 10 | HD: 6 | Health: 40 | AC/EV: 4/12 | Damage: 9 | Res: 06magic(24) | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 983. 20:34:22 @??slave 20:34:22 slave (16@) | Speed: 10 | HD: 5 | Health: 15-40 | AC/EV: 2/12 | Damage: 10 | Res: 06magic(20) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 130. 20:34:25 Solid 40HP is definitely better than 15-40 though :) 20:34:27 -!- pointless_ has joined ##crawl-dev 20:35:12 Attempting to examine a specific friendly orc causes segmentation fault (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=628) by yobbo 20:35:15 But of course, not having to kill the slaves for their 'portion' of the xp is pretty significant 20:35:47 pointless_! 20:35:55 Hi 20:35:59 pointless_: Can you fact-check my Fedhas play-testing post? 20:36:11 ok 20:36:14 I'll link in two seconds 20:36:34 pointless_: http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=283#more-283 20:37:24 I'm going to do a couple things, and I'll look at it in ~5 minutes 20:37:43 Thanks! 20:38:51 I've played Fedhas the most, so it's quite fresh in my mind, but I thought I'd double check. 20:42:32 due: I'd mention the prioritizing done for partial rings with growth 20:42:48 pointless_: Hm, not sure I understand that then. 20:42:54 It tries to put them closer 20:42:59 and if it can't, it puts them further away? 20:43:35 due: it only places plants adjacent to you, but if you use less fruit than you have empty spaces it puts the plants on the squares which are closest to enemies 20:44:06 so e.g. using 3 fruit can block ranged attacks pretty reliably (assuming you aren't surrounded) 20:44:35 Ahh, initeresting 20:45:01 It says something aboujt it in the ability description but I don't think users know about ability descriptions 20:45:11 Yeah, I read it there but didn't properly understand it. 20:45:39 Yeah if you think of a better way to word it I'll steal it for the ability desc. 20:45:50 Ahaha, I don't think I will. 20:46:04 I'll finish alphabet stone soup and the summary first 20:46:12 and try and come up witth a better description for it 20:47:28 sounds good 20:56:30 -!- TGWi has left ##crawl-dev 21:16:15 -!- raydarken has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:19:52 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 21:23:14 @??ynoxinul 21:23:14 ynoxinul (113) | Speed: 10 | HD: 6 | Health: 18-48 | AC/EV: 3/10 | Damage: 12 | Flags: 05demonic, sense invisible, fly | Res: 06magic(48), 02cold, 10elec++, 03poison | XP: 197 | Sp: iron shot, ufetubus. 21:23:32 @??hellion 21:23:32 hellion (052) | Speed: 13 | HD: 7 | Health: 21-56 | AC/EV: 5/10 | Damage: 10 | Flags: 05demonic | Res: 06magic(65), 05hellfire, 03poison | Vul: 12cold | XP: 594 | Sp: hellfire burst. 21:24:06 -!- SiberSchool has joined ##crawl-dev 21:24:51 ??alphabet stone soup 21:24:52 I don't have a page labeled alphabet_stone_soup in my learndb. 21:25:20 ? 21:25:45 I'll finish alphabet stone soup and the summary first 21:25:48 http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:blog:playtesting 21:26:21 loading... 21:27:43 ah 21:28:57 -!- Siber has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:29:35 -!- AceTetra has joined ##crawl-dev 21:29:44 @??acid blob 21:29:44 acid blob (11J) | Speed: 14 | HD: 18 | Health: 54-144 | AC/EV: 1/3 | Damage: 4208(acid) | Flags: sense invisible | Res: 06magic(168), 03poison, 08acid+++, asphyx | XP: 3847. 21:30:01 @??azure jelly 21:30:01 azure jelly (12J) | Speed: 12 | HD: 15 | Health: 45-120 | AC/EV: 5/10 | Damage: 1212(cold), 1212(cold), 12, 12 | Flags: sense invisible | Res: 06magic(80), 02cold, 10elec++, 03poison, 08acid+++, asphyx | Vul: 04fire | XP: 2136. 21:32:24 There is still a Napkin-shaped hole in my ##crawl-dev heart :( 21:36:42 -!- AceTetra has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:43:10 @??shadow 21:43:10 shadow (06p) | Speed: 10 | HD: 3 | Health: 9-24 | AC/EV: 12/10 | Damage: 505(drain strength) | Flags: 07undead, evil, see invisible, lev | Res: 06magic(20), 12cold+++, 03poison | XP: 28. 21:45:23 @??vapour 21:45:23 vapour (11v) | Speed: 10 | HD: 12 | Health: 24-60 | AC/EV: 0/12 | Flags: 11non-living, see invisible, lev | Res: 13magic(immune), 11elec+++, 03poison | XP: 901 | Sp: b.lightning. 21:46:22 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:46:42 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:48:13 Almost done. 21:51:43 03due * r401081dd1ad9 10/crawl-ref/ (settings/052_monster_glyphs.txt source/mon-data.h): Add scoprions to 052 settings, make earth elementals elementally coloured. 21:51:48 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 22:07:15 twinge: 54 seems like too little for electric eels 22:09:46 -!- pointless_ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:10:03 The damage is usually not that high and you can usually walk away, but I could be convinced to go a little higher if others agree. used to be a paltry 28 22:10:21 well, it's full range 22:10:37 you can walk away, but they cover a pretty huge area 22:10:49 Yeah, that is true 22:10:57 @??lava worm 22:10:57 lava worm (05w) | Speed: 10 | HD: 6 | Health: 18-48 | AC/EV: 1/10 | Damage: 1504(fire) | Res: 06magic(24), 04fire+++ | Vul: 12cold | XP: 102. 22:10:59 @??lava snake 22:10:59 lava snake (05S) | Speed: 10 | HD: 3 | Health: 9-24 | AC/EV: 2/17 | Damage: 704(fire) | Res: 06magic(12), 04fire+++ | Vul: 12cold | XP: 47. 22:11:26 @??Salamander 22:11:26 salamander (04S) | Speed: 10 | HD: 14 | Health: 42-112 | AC/EV: 5/5 | Damage: 2304(fire) | Res: 06magic(56), 04fire+++ | Vul: 12cold | XP: 1407. 22:11:28 NEeds a glyph change. 22:11:32 Should be H. 22:11:49 It's a hybrid? 22:11:59 humanoid salamander? dunno 22:12:05 both red H are taken 22:12:08 @??minotaur 22:12:08 minotaur (04H) | Speed: 10 | HD: 13 | Health: 39-104 | AC/EV: 5/7 | Damage: 35, 20 | Res: 06magic(52) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 1381. 22:12:16 @??manticore 22:12:17 manticore (05H) | Speed: 7 | HD: 9 | Health: 27-72 | AC/EV: 5/7 | Damage: 14, 8, 8 | Res: 06magic(36) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 163. 22:12:45 could bump minotaur if there's another colour available 22:13:22 One page down! 22:13:28 ? 22:13:29 Haven't you seen the tile? 22:13:40 Let me link. 22:13:54 http://crawl.develz.org/info/index.php?q=salamander 22:13:54 just knowledged it up 22:14:12 Looks like a Naga 22:14:24 Yeah, it does, actually. 22:14:27 Pity all red N are taken. 22:14:38 @??naga mage 22:14:38 naga mage (05N) | Speed: 8 (act: 80%) | HD: 7 | Health: 21-56 | AC/EV: 6/10 | Damage: 17 | Flags: spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(56), 03poison | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 353 | Sp: b.venom, mystic blast, haste, poison arrow, teleport other, teleport self. 22:14:39 naga are sort of a special sort of hybrid I think 22:14:42 We could move nages to magenta. 22:14:47 nages <3 22:14:48 the sad limitations of ascii ;) 22:14:49 And put salamanters on red N. 22:14:53 Magenta makes more sense anyway 22:14:53 purge: <3 22:15:00 yeah, do the magenta thing 22:15:01 Twinge: Yes, I've always wondered why they weren't. 22:15:04 Not for 0.6 22:15:06 erm, orc wizard purple 22:15:10 if that's what magenta is 22:15:12 dpeg has put the stop on glyph changes. 22:15:17 :[ 22:15:19 Bah 22:15:48 salamanders seem to be worth too much 22:15:54 as long as we're talking about that 22:16:09 since they're confined to lava 22:16:29 I'm not sure the solution is nerfing the experience, since they're still genuinely scary in melee 22:16:41 I think we should make salamanders lava amphibious. 22:16:53 make them patrolling, but with lava 22:17:00 Yeah. 22:17:05 * due puts that on the 0.7 list 22:17:26 giant toad is worth too much 22:17:38 more than a blink frog, despite dealing less and being slower 22:17:43 and having worse defenses... it's just got more hp 22:17:43 I'd wondered about Salamanders, but considering I'd never even seen them I didn't end up looking into the further 22:17:50 @??blink frog 22:17:50 blink frog (09F) | Speed: 14 (swim: 60%) | HD: 6 | Health: 18-48 | AC/EV: 3/12 | Damage: 2006(blink) | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(40) | XP: 244. 22:17:53 @??giant toad 22:17:53 giant toad (07F) | Speed: 13 (swim: 60%) | HD: 8 | Health: 24-64 | AC/EV: 2/11 | Damage: 14 | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(32) | XP: 397. 22:17:55 @??giant frog 22:17:55 giant frog (03F) | Speed: 15 (swim: 60%) | HD: 4 | Health: 12-32 | AC/EV: 0/12 | Damage: 9 | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(16) | XP: 88. 22:18:25 Agree. 22:18:41 plus, blink frog packs are holy shit scary 22:18:44 @??prince ribbit 22:18:44 Prince Ribbit (11F) | Speed: 14 (swim: 60%) | HD: 6 | Health: 40 | AC/EV: 3/12 | Damage: 20 | Flags: amphibious, spellcaster, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(40) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 302 | Sp: teleport self. 22:19:10 blink frogs never actually scared me that much 22:19:24 I'm always more concerned about spiny frogs or hydras 22:19:26 twinge: they're fast, hit hard and surround you :[ 22:19:28 well sure 22:19:44 um 22:19:50 GIANT TOADS are worth more than SPINY FROGS 22:19:52 @??spiny frog 22:19:52 spiny frog (08F) | Speed: 12 (swim: 60%) | HD: 7 | Health: 21-56 | AC/EV: 6/9 | Damage: 2604(medium poison) | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(28), 03poison | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 263. 22:20:01 what the hell is the experience formula smoking?? 22:20:19 Yeah they need a boost, they're terrifying 22:20:25 Actually, spiny frog EXP *needs* a boost. 22:20:27 mostly giant toad is silly 22:20:29 Yes. 22:20:33 but yeah spiny frog could take a boost 22:20:35 Giant toad is scary. 22:20:44 giant toad is less scary than spinies, at least 22:20:49 and blinks 22:20:53 The exp formula doesn't really accoutn for AC/EV/Damage 22:21:05 twinge: it also doesn't account for speed 22:21:09 which makes me wonder what it actually does 22:21:10 It accounts for speed. 22:21:12 Spiny frogs ar efucking terrifying. 22:21:16 due: yeah 22:21:23 !lg killer=spiny frog 22:21:24 6. bookofjude the Thaumaturge (L12 SpVM), worshipper of Fedhas, slain by a spiny frog on Lair:3 on 2010-01-27, with 15984 points after 24729 turns and 1:59:24. 22:21:33 !lg due killer=giant toad 22:21:33 No games for due (killer=giant toad). 22:21:39 !lg due killer=giant brown frog 22:21:40 3. bookofjude the Nimble (L9 SpAs), worshipper of Trog, slain by a giant brown frog on D:9 on 2009-03-12, with 2868 points after 8967 turns and 0:21:03. 22:21:45 It accoutns for speed quite heavily in fact 22:21:51 Just not heavily enough in some cases 22:21:57 hm 22:22:12 so, increase spiny frogs somewhat and drop toads? 22:22:34 Yes. 22:22:41 @??ogre 22:22:41 ogre (07O) | Speed: 10 | HD: 5 | Health: 15-40 | AC/EV: 1/6 | Damage: 17 | Res: 06magic(20) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 120. 22:23:38 Why don't you swap them? 22:24:09 giant toad -> ~250, spiny frog -> ~400, blink frog -> ~270 22:24:11 I maintain that blinks are scarier than toads 22:24:14 twinge: I like 22:24:26 !lg due killer=blink frog 22:24:28 5. bookofjude the Frost Mage (L10 MuIE), worshipper of Sif Muna, mangled by a blink frog on Lair:3 on 2009-08-29, with 6501 points after 22397 turns and 1:06:18. 22:24:36 Why are we using me as a yardstick? 22:24:40 and that's tidily in line with due's deaths 22:24:46 Hah 22:25:08 !lg killer=blink frog 22:25:10 6. TGW the Martial Artist (L10 DGTm), slain by a blink frog on Lair:2 on 2010-01-19, with 7594 points after 14921 turns and 1:13:11. 22:25:12 !lg killer=spiny frog 22:25:13 4. TGW the Conjurer (L10 HECj), worshipper of Fedhas, mangled by a spiny frog on Lair:1 on 2009-12-25, with 5325 points after 12072 turns and 0:48:00. 22:25:32 because I'm a backwards yardstick 22:25:49 !lg * killer=giant toad cv>=0.5 22:25:50 14. quru the Ruinous (L3 HECj), slain by a giant toad on D:3 on 2010-01-31, with 96 points after 1890 turns and 0:05:18. 22:26:00 !lg * killer=blink frog cv>=0.5 22:26:00 179. CatEater the Severer (L12 HOBe), worshipper of Trog, slain by a blink frog on Lair:5 on 2010-01-30, with 19387 points after 18783 turns and 1:45:19. 22:26:04 !lg * killer=giant brown frog cv>=0.5 22:26:04 172. Shovelmint the Believer (L6 DrHe), worshipper of Elyvilon, slain by a giant brown frog on D:6 on 2010-01-29, with 620 points after 4736 turns and 0:20:18. 22:26:06 !lg * killer=spiny frog cv>=0.5 22:26:06 407. Xiberia the Cleaver (L11 DDBe), worshipper of Trog, slain by a spiny frog on Lair:4 on 2010-01-30, with 11522 points after 10428 turns and 0:56:19. 22:26:26 oh, right 22:26:27 172+14 for toads, 407 spinies, 179 for blinks... huh 22:26:43 Toads are pretty scary. 22:26:45 -!- SiberSchool is now known as Siber 22:26:47 maybe I'm wrong, blinks aren't as scary as I think 22:26:51 blinks people probably take more seriously too, so take more caution 22:26:52 @??blink frog 22:26:52 blink frog (09F) | Speed: 14 (swim: 60%) | HD: 6 | Health: 18-48 | AC/EV: 3/12 | Damage: 2006(blink) | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(40) | XP: 244. 22:27:00 Twinge: Yeah, definitely. 22:27:06 due: blinks are faster and more damaging, plus packs 22:27:16 Exactly 22:27:18 But the HP factor is also relevant; the longer they stay alive, the longer they keep hitting you 22:27:19 twinge's handwave is acceptable to my view of reality 22:27:20 People take much more care around them 22:27:32 * due handwaves TGWi. 22:27:44 hi 22:28:05 Dunno how I missed spiny frogs on the first passes to be honest, those guys have often annoyed me more than hydras... 22:30:18 !lg * place=lair cv=0.6 s=ckiller ktyp!=quitting 22:30:20 319 games for * (place=lair cv=0.6 ktyp!=quitting): 46x a hydra, 36x a spiny frog, 20x a black mamba, 20x a blink frog, 14x a yak, 11x a komodo dragon, 11x a death yak, 8x a killer bee, 8x Rupert, 7x Maud, 7x pois, 7x an acid blob, 7x a war dog, 7x a fire drake, 6x a giant toad, 6x an electric eel, 5x a player ghost, 5x an azure jelly, 5x Gastronok, 5x a gila monster, 4x a firedrake, 4x a polar be... 22:30:54 So here's what I've got running for the 2nd pass. Dunno if I need to bother putting up the weight/sizes changes since there's like 150 of them - maybe just pass around the spreadsheet and have a couple people look it over or something 22:30:56 http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:feedback:monster:experience 22:31:22 @??black mamba 22:31:22 black mamba (02S) | Speed: 18 | HD: 7 | Health: 21-56 | AC/EV: 4/15 | Damage: 2004(medium poison) | Flags: cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(28), 03poison | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 454. 22:31:32 @??spiny frog 22:31:32 spiny frog (08F) | Speed: 12 (swim: 60%) | HD: 7 | Health: 21-56 | AC/EV: 6/9 | Damage: 2604(medium poison) | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(28), 03poison | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 263. 22:31:32 that seems about right 22:31:50 (mambas are half faster and more damaging so, yeah) 22:32:14 @??yak 22:32:14 yak (07Y) | Speed: 10 | HD: 7 | Health: 21-56 | AC/EV: 4/7 | Damage: 18 | Res: 06magic(28) | XP: 223. 22:32:23 @??giant toad 22:32:24 giant toad (07F) | Speed: 13 (swim: 60%) | HD: 8 | Health: 24-64 | AC/EV: 2/11 | Damage: 14 | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(32) | XP: 397. 22:32:42 @??ogre 22:32:42 ogre (07O) | Speed: 10 | HD: 5 | Health: 15-40 | AC/EV: 1/6 | Damage: 17 | Res: 06magic(20) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 120. 22:33:39 Yaks could maybe take a one notch drop? They can be nasty, but at speed 10 they can be avoided, and they can also be easily poisoned/mephed/etc. 22:33:52 how low does that make them? 22:33:55 They should be a round 200, I tink. 22:33:55 I'm indifferent 22:34:12 Yep, ~200 is what I already had typed in :) 22:34:15 cool 22:34:38 (I'd have to edit the file and recompile to actually test what the exp gains would be in game, thus all the ~) 22:35:03 is all this going in 0.6? 22:35:14 No. 22:35:19 ok 22:35:24 Well, maybe. 22:35:25 Er? 22:35:26 I'll ask dpeg. 22:35:27 I'd say yes 22:35:29 Hehe 22:35:41 It's easy and good! 22:35:46 this just in: twinge has willed himself onto the devteam 22:35:52 -!- Timbermaw has quit [Quit: later!] 22:36:07 TGW: I'll take all the power and none of the responsibility! 22:37:09 Seems silly to freeze everything, especially stuff that is being done by someone not on the dev-team 22:37:44 Anyway, good list of 2nd pass exp tweaks, be back in a while. 22:38:03 The point of freezing everything is that it means there aren't new things for us to test. 22:46:17 did zot defense ever have a second release? 22:46:25 One and a half pages to go. 22:46:31 stabwound: It got ported to 0.5, at least. 22:46:35 ahh 22:46:47 pages of what? 22:47:51 Commits. 22:47:56 I'm writing the next play-testing post. 22:47:57 ah 22:48:09 does listgame have an absdepth equivalent? 22:48:21 lvl, I think. 22:48:28 ??lg 22:48:33 listgame[1/5]: Fields: src (cao/cdo), v (game version), sc, name, race, cls, char, xl, sk (skill), sklev, title, ktyp, killer, kaux, place, br, lvl (br depth), ltyp (D, Abyss, ...), hp, mhp, mmhp, dam, str, int, dex, god, piety, pen (penance), start, end, dur (game time), turn, urune, nrune, tmsg, vmsg, alpha, splat. See {listgame examples}. 22:48:36 hm, seems so 22:48:43 Maybe not. 22:48:55 I don't think the xlogfile reports it. 22:48:59 ach 22:52:11 should ice beasts be worth more than 1 more than ogres? 22:53:31 same hp, probably more damage, rP, rC, can't weapon swap away... plus both defenses are better 22:53:43 !lg * killer=ice beast max=dam x=dam 22:53:43 2075. [dam=32] Raven the Ruinous (L7 HuRe), worshipper of Okawaru, demolished by an ice beast on D:6 on 2008-09-26, with 697 points after 6331 turns and 0:50:04. 23:09:51 ??monsters 23:09:52 monsters[1/1]: Type @?monstername in this channel (or in a PM to Gretell), or see http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/kielosto/crawl_spoilers/ss/crawl_ss_monsters_by_name.html If you want to see the stats of a monster in trunk, use @?? instead of @? 23:10:39 -!- Siber has quit [Quit: Whoa! Partial hit!] 23:10:54 -!- raydarken has joined ##crawl-dev 23:11:21 -!- Siber has joined ##crawl-dev 23:12:51 Oh. 23:12:53 I was mistaken. 23:12:59 2 and a hallf pages to go before, now two pages. 23:22:28 due: you could move giant orange brain -> orange brain 23:22:39 'cause that's not a real thing, and they're small-sized already 23:24:01 also, giant bat -> bat, or possibly [species] bat 23:24:25 elven bat? 23:25:01 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_golden-crowned_flying_fox 23:25:38 wingspan 1.5m, weigh 1.5 kilos 23:25:43 1.2* 23:25:56 they're also adorable 23:27:54 giant spore appears to be more a cluster of small spores anyway, so could be renamed without changing flavor any 23:28:08 so we feel bad about hunting every one of the god damned bats? 23:28:50 textmode: you should already feel terrible about killing crocodiles and quokkas 23:28:51 http://gallery.kingsnake.com/data/9314Female-Dwarf-Croc.jpg 23:29:20 it shoulld be explosive spore 23:29:29 fair enough 23:29:55 TGWi: I tend to feel pretty okay with killing things that are trying to kill me. 23:30:12 textmode: clearly you didn't look at the picture 23:30:38 nah, looked. still fine with it. 23:30:43 * Textmode has no soul. 23:30:52 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 23:31:10 morning, eith 23:31:26 giant goldfish -> pretty much any species of fish, seriously 23:31:32 Agree. 23:31:52 not really morning =p still night time 23:32:00 eith: what time is it? 23:32:05 5:30 23:32:06 isn't it like six? 23:32:07 ah 23:32:17 03due * r7d764513a906 10/crawl-ref/source/tutorial.cc: Fix reference to ##crawl (was #crawl) (Sunfall) 23:32:20 i suppose that could be morning if your a normal person >.> 23:32:35 no normal person gets up at 5:30 23:32:50 of course, no normal person stays up until 5:30 either 23:32:57 ;) 23:33:03 I do, on both counts. 23:33:10 then again, point proven, I guess. 23:33:28 i sleep at about 7ish and get up at 5ish, always was a night-time person 23:33:41 giant of giant eyeball fame could use a different adjective 23:34:41 huge? 23:34:47 oversized. 23:34:54 small-challanged? 23:34:59 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrinx_aruanus 23:35:02 this is pretty much perfect 23:35:10 they're giant, they're snails, and they're even australian 23:35:51 "trumpet snail"? 23:36:33 I'd like that 23:37:47 @??giant snail 23:37:47 giant snail (09j) | Speed: 4 | HD: 14 | Health: 70-112 | AC/EV: 7/2 | Damage: 18 | Flags: amphibious | Res: 06magic(56) | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 244. 23:37:48 @??giant slug 23:37:49 giant slug (03j) | Speed: 6 | HD: 10 | Health: 50-80 | AC/EV: 0/2 | Damage: 23 | Flags: amphibious | Res: 06magic(40) | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 207. 23:39:00 "enormous gastropod". 23:39:17 :P 23:39:28 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Largest_organisms 23:39:31 wiki delivers 23:39:51 "Massive coral reef". 23:39:54 banana slugs, about 30cm in length...probably not big enough... 23:40:47 Megabats <3 23:40:54 ? 23:41:41 yeah, the large bats are clasified as megabats 23:42:04 oh wow 23:43:42 slugsite.us is extremely silly 23:44:04 *NOW* one and a half pages to go. :( 23:44:37 welcome to a while ago 23:45:27 I miscalculated 23:45:30 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellbender 23:46:59 up to 74 cm long, "They have powerful jaws that can inflict a painful bite." 23:47:21 use that for giant gecko? 23:48:23 Oh, interesting idea. 23:48:25 eh, not really similar 23:48:30 newt maybe, but newts are wimps 23:49:57 03due * r891a5325e80e 10/crawl-ref/settings/052_monster_glyphs.txt: Add giant spores's old glyph to the 0.5.2 settings file. 23:51:00 Better handling of sleep (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=629) by Sunfall 23:52:42 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8c/Centipede%2C_Trinidad.jpg 23:52:45 is that giant enough? 23:52:58 No. 23:53:00 ok 23:53:04 It's giant as in human-sized. 23:53:13 it deals 2 damage 23:53:35 and it's tiny-sized 23:53:40 and has hd 2 23:54:05 ??size factor 23:54:06 size factor[1/1]: For evasion purposes spider form and bat form are tiny (factor 3), spriggans are little (factor 2), halflings kobolds and gnomes are small (factor 1), trolls ogres centaurs and nagas are large (factor -1), and dragonform is huge (factor -4) 23:54:09 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:54:32 Oh, it is tiny? 23:54:33 Hm. 23:54:40 That probably is big enough then. 23:55:04 unfortunately its common name is "amazonian giant centipede" 23:55:12 which helps *negative* much 23:55:17 heh 23:55:32 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazonian_giant_centipede 23:55:36 amazonian centipede, disaster averted. 23:55:37 "yellowleg centipede" is an option 23:55:46 Amazonian centipede is better. 23:56:02 what is an amazon 23:56:12 Amazonian as in from the amazon. 23:56:39 apprently a amazonian jungle is about to grow in the Crawl universe :P 23:56:48 right, that's what I mean 23:58:13 It already exists in the crawl macroverse. 23:58:18 We have donald ducktaur, ffs. :) 23:58:37 ... 23:59:05 @??donald 23:59:05 Donald (02@) | Speed: 10 | HD: 14 | Health: 84 | AC/EV: 3/10 | Damage: 26 | Flags: amphibious | Res: 06magic(93) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 2423. 23:59:51 the largest frogs, toads, mosquitos, cockroaches, and mites are all too small 23:59:56 also, it looks like the snail is too