00:15 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * re7e71e24190d /crawl-ref/source/ (3 files in 3 dirs): Add purge's burning bush tile. 00:15 -!- by [n=rob@g225109219.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:21 <+due> Hiya 00:21 <+due> Enne: Hey! I noticed that issue with the weird overlay before. 00:23 -!- Twinge_ [n=user@97-124-174-155.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 00:36 <+due> Oooh, AC changes are in! 00:36 <+due> That is *excellent*. 00:37 -!- Timbermaw [n=riquez60@200.175.209.46.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit ["later!"] 00:38 <+due> Enne: I'll be on the other PC tomorrow to test out any patches re: weird water thig. 00:39 -!- Twinge [n=user@97-124-173-243.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [No route to host] 00:40 <+Enne> due: Awesome. I'll try to be on tomorrow to sort something out. :) 00:40 -!- Enne [n=enne@cpe-076-182-101-004.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [] 00:42 -!- Timbermaw [n=riquez60@200.175.209.20.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined ##crawl-dev 00:43 -!- Twinge [n=user@97-124-153-226.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 00:43 < TGWi> I think consistency in cold-bloodedness would be a good thing 00:43 < TGWi> since it's hidden from players and generally irrelevant 00:44 < TGWi> currently, some D for example are cold blooded and some aren't--even among the actual dragons 00:45 -!- Timbermaw [n=riquez60@200.175.209.20.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Client Quit] 00:46 <+due> TGWi: There's a lot of in-ame cosistencies. 00:46 <+due> However, not all dragons are cold-0blooded, nor should they be. 00:46 < TGWi> I can't think of any similar to this, or ones I view as good things 00:46 <+due> Nor are there. 00:47 -!- Eifel [n=Eifel@dslb-084-063-022-059.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:47 < TGWi> pretend the object of that sentence is "inconsistencies" 00:47 <+due> You're right, that's odd. 00:47 <+due> Obviously, fire-based ones shouldn't be. 00:47 < ogaz> at one point ice dragons could be slowed by freeze, which was kind of strange 00:47 <+due> ogaz: They still can be. 00:47 < TGWi> well, yes, the slowing effect should check rC and cold blooded :P 00:47 < ogaz> Oh. Well, it's still kind of strange 00:47 <+sorear> They can't, they resist cold 00:48 <+due> Ah 00:48 < TGWi> sorear: oh, it does now? cool 00:48 <+due> Right. 00:48 <+sorear> AFAIK it always did 00:48 < TGWi> sorear: people have definitely been able to ice dragons with freezing 00:48 < ogaz> I think you could slow ice dragons with freezing brand in 0.5.0 00:50 < TGWi> barring rC I believe dragons should be affected, being reptilian 00:50 < TGWi> plain old dragon has vul:ice, if that changes due's mind 00:50 <+due> I think so as well. 00:51 <+due> FR it, probably, because it's robably contentious. 00:51 < TGWi> fair enough 00:54 < TGWi> ??monsters 00:54 < Henzell> monsters[1/1]: Type @?monstername in this channel (or in a PM to Gretell), or see http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/kielosto/crawl_spoilers/ss/crawl_ss_monsters_by_name.html If you want to see the stats of a monster in trunk, use @?? instead of @? 00:57 -!- Timbermaw [n=riquez60@200.175.209.20.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined ##crawl-dev 01:00 -!- Twinge_ [n=user@97-124-174-155.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:08 < Ashenzari> Missing descriptions for Jiyva and Cheibriados' abilities (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=532) by jpeg 01:18 < TGWi> are turtles cold blooded in crawl? 01:18 <+due> Yes 01:18 < TGWi> ok 01:19 < TGWi> are worms cold blooded in real life? 01:20 * scarf checks 01:20 <+sorear> yes 01:20 < scarf> apparently so 01:20 <+sorear> worms have too much surface-to-mass to support a warm blooded lifestyle 01:20 < scarf> the term "worm" is biologically ambiguous 01:20 < scarf> but everything it's commonly applied to is cold-blooded 01:21 <+sorear> the smallest warm blooded creature is the shrew, and it has to eat something ridiculous like its body weight *every hour* just to support itself 01:21 < TGWi> as far as I know, Baksw should be cold blooded 01:21 < TGWi> but are not 01:21 <+due> sorear: I love so much disint <3 01:22 < TGWi> is sorear a biologist or something? 01:22 <+sorear> a worm the size of a person (exactly how big are Crawl worms?) could concievably be warm-blooded 01:23 < scarf> Crawl monsters don't have particular sizes, do they? 01:23 <+sorear> it goes both ways - if a creature is large and active, it has to self-regulate temperature, otherwise it will overheat and catch fire like a manure pile 01:23 < TGWi> for swamp worms and such, it seems kind of dubious 01:23 < scarf> presumably, we can imagine that all Crawl monsters are exactly the same size 01:23 <+sorear> trees can get away with being cold because they're so sessile 01:23 < scarf> or maybe exactly the size their tiles indicate 01:24 < TGWi> sorear: so Pf should also be cold blooded? 01:24 < scarf> sorear: dinosaurs were cold-blooded, weren't they? 01:24 <+sorear> scarf: all Crawl tiles are the same size for human interface reasons, it has no bearing on phisical size 01:24 <+due> scarf: They're GIANT 01:24 -!- ogaz_ [n=chatzill@c-98-242-45-110.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 01:24 -!- ogaz [n=chatzill@c-67-187-226-4.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 01:24 <+sorear> scarf: I *think* most of the dinosaurs were warm-blooded, but I'm not positive 01:24 -!- ogaz_ is now known as ogaz 01:25 <+sorear> TGWi: I'm not a biologist, I'm arguing from basic physical principles 01:25 -!- Timbermaw_ [n=riquez60@200.175.209.20.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined ##crawl-dev 01:25 < TGWi> I need to brush up on those 01:26 < scarf> sorear: shape rather matters a lot for physical-principle arguments 01:26 < scarf> I can imagine a large cold-blooded creature that's relatively active, but has a large surface area 01:26 < scarf> and burns off heat that way 01:26 < scarf> well, radiates it 01:27 < TGWi> burning off heat sounds like a bad idea 01:28 < scarf> yes, I was being a bit unclear 01:28 -!- Timbermaw_ [n=riquez60@200.175.209.20.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Client Quit] 01:28 < scarf> given that I have a degree in electronic engineering, I should probably use the unambiguous technical term "dissipates" 01:28 < Ashenzari> Delayed Fireball works when silenced (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=533) by jpeg 01:29 <+due> Or, "sweats"? 01:29 < TGWi> you aren't cold-blooded if you sweat 01:30 < scarf> sweating's a method of increasing the rate at which you dissipate heat 01:30 < scarf> but you dissipate it even without sweating 01:31 < scarf> Ashenzari: that reminds me, why don't monsters get cursed when they kill a player mummy? 01:31 < TGWi> how do you know they don't 01:32 < TGWi> slugs are poikilothermic, yeah? 01:32 < scarf> kind-of hard to tell, I agree 01:32 < scarf> as for the dinosaur thing, I checked on Wikipedia; apparently it was disputed for a while, but scientists now mostly think they were warm-blooded (but aren't sure of the details) 01:37 -!- eith [n=eith@86-41-102-58-dynamic.b-ras2.lmk.limerick.eircom.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:38 < TGWi> http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=534 01:38 < Ashenzari> cold-bloodedness: inter-glyph consistency and realism (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=534) by TGW 01:41 -!- Timbermaw [n=riquez60@200.175.209.20.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:43 < Ashenzari> Allies insist on cutting down plants (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=535) by jpeg 01:46 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r21f6bc56472e /crawl-ref/source/command.cc: Fix SF BR 2913259: Bad pluralisation in database lookup. 01:48 < Ashenzari> Odd crashes (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=536) by Nobody 01:54 -!- Iainuki_ [n=NoOne@unaffiliated/iainuki] has joined ##crawl-dev 02:02 * due waits for further linking crashes. 02:03 <+due> Woohoo, it compiled! 02:03 <+due> Also, I broke autopickup. Go me! 02:08 < Ashenzari> Shift-targeting wizmode-spells can crash the game (ge7e71e2) (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=537) by jpeg 02:18 -!- Eifel [n=Eifel@dslb-084-063-022-059.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 02:21 <+due> Hey Eifel. 02:21 < Eifel> Hey 02:22 < MarvinPA> hmm, i'm having a go at writing a patch to implement http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=251 02:23 < MarvinPA> how big a stack of fruit is reasonable for you to be able to get? i have it make ones the same size as you find in the dungeon at the moment 02:24 <+due> Well 02:24 <+due> Acquirement can give you 10 or so honeycombs or royal jellies 02:24 <+due> ??honeycomb 02:24 < Henzell> food[1/2]: Goes in mouth. Without carnivore or herbivore: Royal jelly weighs 5.5, is 5000 nutrition. Meat weighs 8, is 5000 nutrition. Bread weighs 8, is 4400 nutrition. Honeycomb weighs 4, is 2000 nutrition. A chunk weighs 10, is 1000 nutrition. Takes 4 turns to eat rations, 3 for chunks, 2 turns for all other food. 02:25 <+due> 10 royal jelly = 10*5000 nutrition 02:25 <+due> equivalent nutrition value in fruit is not inappropriate, in my opinion 02:25 <+due> ??food[2] 02:25 < Henzell> food[2/2]: Sultana is 70. Grape is 100. Strawberry is 200. Lychee/choko/rambutan is 600. Apricot/pear/apple is 700. Banana/lemon/orange is 1000. Cheese/sausage is 1200. Beef jerky/pizza/snozzcumber is 1500. Porridge is 6040. Potion of water is 60. Water fountain is 20. 02:25 < MarvinPA> hmm, even though you'd be using it for plants/oklobs rather than eating, most likely? 02:25 <+due> Fruit ranges from 70 to 1000. 02:25 <+due> I think it's at leadt a place to start. 02:26 < MarvinPA> at the moment i have it just making stacks of strawberries/grapes, so you can use them for the abilities 02:26 <+due> Hm. 02:26 <+due> pointless_: Ah, you're around. Thoughts on fruit acquirement? 02:27 < MarvinPA> i am also basically learning coding just from poking around in crawl's source and looking on mantis to see if there's anything simple enough for me to figure out how to do :P 02:28 -!- Timbermaw [n=riquez60@200.175.209.20.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined ##crawl-dev 02:28 <+pointless_> Hmmm well I'd say make it like 15 pieces of fruit for now 02:30 <+due> This is going to break so many user scripts it will not be funny. 02:30 <+due> Maybe it's a bad change. 02:30 < MarvinPA> ok, rather than aiming to give it comparable nutrition with regular acquirement? 02:31 <+due> MarvinPA: You could give 15 pieces of fruit that roguhly equate to comparable nutrition value. 02:31 <+pointless_> What does nutrition comparable to regular acquirement work out to? 02:31 < MarvinPA> or i guess it could give you stacks of bigger fruit, so you'll get reasonable nutrition 02:31 < MarvinPA> yeah 02:31 <+due> pointless_: 10*5000 or so. 02:31 <+due> Hm, maybe not. 02:31 <+pointless_> I mean how many pieces of fruit 02:31 <+due> 4*4000. 02:31 <+due> 4*5000. My 10 was off. 02:31 <+pointless_> anyway I don't think the nutrition aspect is important 02:32 <+pointless_> Who acquires food in the first place? 02:32 <+due> Spriggans. 02:32 < MarvinPA> apparently vampires can acquire blood potions from it 02:32 <+due> Yeah, they can. 02:32 < MarvinPA> and it gives them like, 5 :P 02:32 <+pointless_> Well I'm going to claim that people trying to acquire food because they are starving is a niche case that we don't really have to worry about 02:33 <+due> Why not just randomly generate a stack of 15 items that approaches the nutritional value of minimum acquirement? 02:33 <+due> You'd only end up with 15-20 or so items. 02:33 < Eifel> hmm I'm getting hungry ;-) 02:33 <+due> Eifel: Me too. 02:34 < MarvinPA> i could try that, i'm not so sure how to make it generate a stack of lots of different fruits though 02:34 <+pointless_> Well the important parameter (and why we are bothering with this case in the first place) is the number of pieces of fruit Fedhas worshipers get, that does give you some leeway since different fruit have different nutritional value 02:34 -!- ogaz [n=chatzill@c-98-242-45-110.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:35 < MarvinPA> everything else just picks an item and gives you x of it, ghouls get a big stack of chunks all from the same species for example 02:35 <+pointless_> Well you can make a stack of grapes or whatever 02:35 <+pointless_> ??food [2] 02:35 < Henzell> food[2/2]: Sultana is 70. Grape is 100. Strawberry is 200. Lychee/choko/rambutan is 600. Apricot/pear/apple is 700. Banana/lemon/orange is 1000. Cheese/sausage is 1200. Beef jerky/pizza/snozzcumber is 1500. Porridge is 6040. Potion of water is 60. Water fountain is 20. 02:35 <+due> You'd need 100 or so grapes just to approach the nutritional value of 1/4th the usual food acquirement. 02:35 <+due> Maybe 02:35 <+pointless_> ?? food acquirement 02:35 < Henzell> I don't have a page labeled food_acquirement in my learndb. 02:35 < MarvinPA> but that'd be a heck of a lot of potential oklobs :P 02:36 <+due> Why don't we just do the usual acquirmeent, and then, for Fedhas worshippers, remove a couple of whatever given, and give instead a small stack of fruit? 02:36 <+pointless_> The only reason to add a special case for Fedhas would be to give a largish stack of fruit, otherwise Fedhas worshipers won't bother with food acquirement 02:37 <+due> Okay, so a large stack of fruit on top of a reduced normal acquirement. 02:37 <+pointless_> I'm not sure what the right number of pieces of fruit is, but I'm sure that number is more important than the total nutritional value of the acuirmeent 02:38 < MarvinPA> hmm, well i wouldn't know how to have it give you two different types of items from the one usage of acquirement, i could give it a go though! 02:38 <+pointless_> MarvinPA: if you can't figure it out just make the stack of fruit as a first approach 02:38 <+due> Sure, stack of fruit's fine. 02:39 <+due> Maybe Fedhas worshippers could just get access to a new acquirement type? 02:39 < MarvinPA> maybe just a decent-ish stack of apples/pears etc might be a decent compromise between giving you a fairly large number of stuff to use abilities on, without having such a tiny nutrition conten 02:39 < MarvinPA> content* 02:39 <+due> [j] Fruit, say. 02:40 <+pointless_> I just think that's adding unnecessary complexity 02:40 <+pointless_> Make a stack of snozzcumbers and leave it at that imo 02:41 < MarvinPA> snozzcumbers are a fruit? :o 02:41 <+pointless_> maybe 02:41 < MarvinPA> heh 02:41 <+pointless_> I don't remember 02:41 <+due> No, they're a vegetable. 02:42 <+pointless_> they may be a fruit for fedhas purposes 02:42 < MarvinPA> nope, seems not 02:42 < MarvinPA> chokos are though! 02:42 < MarvinPA> despite being described as vegetables 02:43 <+due> Choko are fruit, though. 02:43 <+due> At least I always though thtey were. 02:43 <+due> Huh, apparently not. 02:44 <+due> Ah, they're a type of melon. 02:44 < MarvinPA> heh, the things i wouldn't know without crawl 02:44 < MarvinPA> like what a quokka is! 02:45 < MarvinPA> and now chokos 02:45 < TGWi> chokos are gourds, yeah? 02:46 <+pointless_> anyone know if direction-rewrite is close to being merged? 02:52 < Eifel> first time since a long time that I play again tiles. Looks nice :D 02:54 <+due> pointless_: Shortly, haran just wasn't sure if it broke tiles or not. 02:54 <+pointless_> oh ok 02:54 <+due> pointless_: Haran said that was the only reason it hasn't already ben committed. 02:54 < TGWi> who coded faith? 02:54 < TGWi> snark? 02:54 <+pointless_> I was just wondering if I should poke something in direction or wait until the merge 02:55 <+due> TGWi: si 02:55 < TGWi> cool 02:55 <+due> Okay, so converting the item library to a metatable system is such a brilliant idea 02:56 <+due> But is only going to cause a million more problems for people 02:57 -!- syllogism [i=syllogis@85-131-29-172.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] 03:06 <+due> sorear: Is there a way to apply only part of a stash? 03:06 <+due> Or get just specific parts out of it? 03:09 < Ashenzari> Find (CTRL-F) does not work for Shoals:N (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=538) by fnwc 03:09 < Eifel> If it's a real stash that would be very curious 03:15 < Eifel> btw don't give anything about my chatter...it's 3am ;-) 03:16 <+due> :) 03:17 -!- scarf is now known as scarf|away 03:17 -!- scarf|away is now known as scarf 03:28 -!- scarf is now known as scarf|away 03:34 -!- scarf|away is now known as scarf 03:37 -!- Scrubber [n=nospam@rrcs-69-193-83-116.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 03:37 <+due> We could probably do dpeg's conducts idea by storing a vector of different conducts--type, turn it happened on, something like that. 03:38 <+due> But I'm guessing it could be pretty big. 03:38 <+sorear> it'd be tiny 03:38 <+sorear> 100 conducts x 8 bytes (last turn, total number) 03:39 <+sorear> the level monster vector is on the order of 100,000 bytes 03:42 -!- scarf is now known as scarf|away 03:47 -!- scarf|away is now known as scarf 03:50 <+due> Probably a good way to do it, then. 03:51 <+due> for 0.7, of course. 03:52 -!- scarf is now known as scarf|away 03:57 -!- scarf|away is now known as scarf 04:10 -!- scarf is now known as scarf|away 04:12 -!- scarf|away is now known as scarf 04:21 -!- scarf is now known as scarf|away 04:22 -!- Netsplit calvino.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: +doy, zenna, Scrubber 04:23 -!- doy [n=doy@tozt.akrasiac.org] has joined ##crawl-dev 04:24 -!- Netsplit over, joins: zenna 04:24 < Ashenzari> noticed minor graphic anomalys in trunk tiles windows file: player.png (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=539) by Porkchop 04:27 -!- scarf|away is now known as scarf 04:28 -!- Ero [n=ero@ip72-192-30-30.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 04:29 <+due> ood hill giant death :D 04:29 <+due> !lg 04:30 < Henzell> 1237. bookofjude the Caller (L5 VpWz), worshipper of Sif Muna, slain by a hill giant (a +0,+0 giant club) on D:4 on 2010-01-24, with 409 points after 5658 turns and 0:17:49. 04:34 -!- scarf is now known as scarf|away 04:38 -!- Timbermaw [n=riquez60@200.175.209.20.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit ["later!"] 04:39 -!- scarf|away is now known as scarf 04:42 -!- Scrubber [n=nospam@rrcs-69-193-83-116.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 04:45 -!- scarf is now known as scarf|away 04:45 -!- scarf|away is now known as scarf 04:56 -!- Eifel [n=Eifel@dslb-084-063-022-059.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left ##crawl-dev [] 04:56 -!- Eifel1 [n=roca@dslb-084-063-022-059.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 04:58 -!- Eifel1 is now known as Eifel 04:59 -!- jld [i=jld@kurobara.xlerb.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:00 -!- scarf is now known as scarf|away 05:01 -!- Iainuki_ [n=NoOne@unaffiliated/iainuki] has quit [] 05:02 <+due> So yeah, victory dancing really has to go. 05:02 <+due> Can we make that an 0.7 taget? 05:03 -!- jld [i=jld@kurobara.xlerb.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 05:04 <+due> Oh and I love whoever add the [**...] to the piety screen 05:04 <+due> <333 05:04 < TGWi> it was my suggesion 05:04 < TGWi> and also my suggestion 05:05 -!- scarf|away is now known as scarf 05:05 <+due> Someone provided a patch for it out of the blue on the SF tracker a few months back 05:05 <+due> whoa wtf 05:05 -!- Eifel [n=roca@dslb-084-063-022-059.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:07 -!- Eifel [n=roca@dslb-084-063-022-059.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 05:20 <+due> another cigotuvi! 05:21 < TGWi> if I were to finish this octoking garden, would it get used? 05:22 <+due> Not as a WizLab, maybe. 05:22 <+due> I'm still unsure and undecided. 05:26 < TGWi> I don't know what you just said 05:27 < TGWi> possibly, but not as a wizlab? 05:27 <+due> yeah 05:27 <+due> I'm undecided about it, because of thingy 05:27 <+due> do not make me think at the point in time 05:33 -!- scarf is now known as scarf|away 05:35 -!- scarf|away is now known as scarf 05:43 * due gone 06:33 -!- hashc [n=hash@adsl-68-76-123-64.dsl.bcvloh.ameritech.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 06:53 -!- Scrubber [n=nospam@rrcs-69-193-83-116.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:07 < TGWi> who is in charge of giving me wiki access? 07:08 < Ero> i can do it but i don't have my login info on this machine 07:08 < Ero> will get to it when i wake up if you post an item in the wiki section of mantis 07:09 < TGWi> (I need to complain about item destruction some more, because I just realized it shuffles around all your items if a slot is taken before you pick them back up) 07:15 < Ashenzari> TGW access (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=541) by TGW 07:15 < Ashenzari> init.txt "assign_item_slot = backward" not working (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=540) by tinyrodent 07:28 < felirx> can anyone else replicate this, take a newest compiled build, start tutorial, make it centaur hunter, kill a kobold and try to chop it -> crash and locked out char 07:29 -!- pointless_ [n=chatzill@ool-4576ec48.dyn.optonline.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20091221164558]"] 07:37 < MarvinPA> felirx: huh, i get a crash as soon as i do anything 07:37 < MarvinPA> in the minotaur tutorial as well 07:38 < MarvinPA> all the tutorials, it loads the dungeon then crashes as soon as i press a button 07:49 -!- ogaz [n=chatzill@c-98-242-45-110.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 08:04 -!- hashc [n=hash@adsl-68-76-123-64.dsl.bcvloh.ameritech.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 08:08 -!- Mu_ [i=Mu@cpc14-live9-0-0-cust109.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 08:14 -!- Mu_ [i=Mu@cpc14-live9-0-0-cust109.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has left ##crawl-dev [] 08:14 -!- Mu_ [i=Mu@cpc14-live9-0-0-cust109.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 08:16 <+due> Hiya. 08:18 < Mu_> Hail and well met. 08:20 -!- mincedd [n=matthew@pool-96-237-13-234.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 08:21 -!- st_ [n=s@cpc1-stre3-0-0-cust207.bagu.cable.ntl.com] has quit [] 08:27 -!- st [n=s@cpc1-stre3-0-0-cust207.bagu.cable.ntl.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 08:40 -!- by [n=rob@g225109219.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined ##crawl-dev 08:40 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v by] by ChanServ 08:40 <+by> good morning 08:41 <+due> hey rob 08:41 <+due> Apparently there are a lot of issues with the latest windows builds. 08:43 <+by> at least it builds :) 08:44 <+by> I have no access to windows at all, unfortunately 08:44 <+by> or does crawl usually work in wine? 08:44 <+due> I don't know 08:44 <+due> I don't have anny windows access at the minute either. 08:45 <@elly> the windows builds should install linux 08:45 <+due> But there's a lot of random crashes when just doing things on some systems. 08:45 <+by> and we don't even get a backtrace, right? 08:45 <+due> Nope :; 08:46 <+by> someone with windows and a debugger will have to look into it -- it's quite likely it's a message window issue, but I can't really do anything beyond answering questions 08:47 <+by> could also be related to the cgotoxy/line_reader changes 08:47 <+by> could also be anything else 08:48 <+due> Yeah. 08:48 <+due> That's why it's problematic. 08:48 <+due> Are ther any free debuggers on Windows? 08:48 <+due> I can probably look into it tonight. 08:49 <@elly> windbg 08:49 <@elly> it is both excellent and free 08:49 <+due> Oh good 08:50 <+due> I will give it a go tonight them 08:50 <+due> Gastronok <3 08:57 <+due> I can't get it to crash at all. 08:57 <+due> Nothing with the X screen... 08:59 -!- ogaz_ [n=chatzill@c-98-242-45-110.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 08:59 <+due> Anyone else running windows that has had issues with it crashing? 08:59 -!- ogaz [n=chatzill@c-98-242-45-110.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 08:59 -!- ogaz_ is now known as ogaz 09:00 <+due> Mu_: Was it just the X screen foor you? 09:00 < Mu_> as soon as i press X i see the map and the game crashes 09:00 < Mu_> didn't test beyond that, what else might crash? 09:01 <+by> clear_messages? 09:01 -!- henryci [n=henryci@c-71-232-165-41.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 09:02 < Mu_> it crashes on X whether clear messages is true or not 09:05 <+greensnark> I can confirm a crash on tutorial with an 80x24 windows console 09:05 -!- Ero [n=ero@ip72-192-30-30.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:05 <+greensnark> Looked like messagewindow confusion 09:05 <+due> I can't get a crash for aynthing 09:05 <+due> Will try tutorial, one sec 09:06 <+due> greensnark: I've basically finished rewriting l_items as a metatable. Can you think of anything I need to convert other than the dat/lua scripts? 09:06 <+due> (And how to test them?) 09:06 -!- henryci [n=henryci@c-71-232-165-41.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left ##crawl-dev [] 09:06 <+due> I'm debating just leaving l_items as it is. 09:06 <+due> But I'm usure. 09:07 <+greensnark> dat/lua is the only user-facing thing 09:07 <+greensnark> Just make sure it doesn't leak info :) 09:07 <+greensnark> Or leave it unchanged if you don't need it for vaults 09:07 <+greensnark> This junk gdb on Windows is not giving me output on crash 09:11 <+due> I've got a junked traceback on windgb 09:11 <+due> windbg, just going to try doing a debug build via msysgit 09:12 -!- scarf is now known as scarf|away 09:12 < felirx> msvc + centaur hunter + firing at things gave stack overflow 09:14 <+due> Yeah, I've got a stack overflow here. 09:15 -!- scarf|away is now known as scarf 09:15 <+greensnark> What is the guilty stack frame 09:15 <+greensnark> WHich funciton? 09:18 <+due> greensnark: 0xfkwdhfekhf gobbledegook. 09:18 <+due> I don't get anything more than a memory reference and I've no idea how to use windbg, just building a debug version. 09:18 <+by> it's could well be some use of flush_prev_message causing another message to be printed... 09:19 <+by> I've had a few of those crashes on non-windows 09:20 -!- scarf is now known as scarf|away 09:22 <+by> on the other hand, those usually involved clear_messages=true, since there flushing could cause the --more-- to be printed 09:22 -!- dexap [n=paxed@pdpc/supporter/active/paxed] has joined ##crawl-dev 09:23 -!- scarf|away is now known as scarf 09:24 <+by> are these crashes console-only, or also in tiles? 09:25 <+greensnark> I cannot repro the X crash in 80x24 09:26 <+greensnark> Let me try 80x25 09:26 <+greensnark> X seems to work fine for me 09:26 <+by> if it's just console, maybe the bottom right character is involved? 09:26 <+greensnark> I'm testing console 09:27 <+greensnark> by: Probably 09:27 < felirx> my centaur tutorial crash was on tiles 09:27 <+greensnark> The tutorial crashes for me on the console 09:28 <+greensnark> gdb on Windows apparently dislikes stack overflows, because I can't make it give me a backtrace 09:28 < Napkin> moin guys! 09:29 <+by> ni napkin 09:29 <+by> uh 09:29 <+by> s/n/h/ 09:29 <+greensnark> I wonder if the X crash is only in debug builds 09:29 <+greensnark> Er, release builds 09:29 <+greensnark> I did get one crash 09:30 <+by> it's weird if tiles crashes on windows but not on unix 09:30 < Napkin> not weird at all ;) 09:31 <+greensnark> Hmm 09:31 <+greensnark> The new messagewindow uses the last line of the console, correct 09:31 <+greensnark> I seem to remember some scrollery involved there 09:31 <+by> yes, intentionally 09:32 <+by> I fixed the scrollery bug on curses 09:32 <+greensnark> Windows doesn't use curses though :) 09:32 <+greensnark> It uses direct win32 terminal routines 09:32 <+by> did windows ever have the scrollery though? 09:32 <+greensnark> It did 09:32 <+by> I'm sure windows console apps can use the bottom right character 09:32 <+greensnark> It may be something in our wrapper libs that's forcing the scroll 09:32 <+by> so if that causes problems, it's a bug to be fixed not by not using that character 09:33 <+greensnark> But even if it scrolls, I don't see where the crash comes in 09:33 -!- paxed [n=paxed@pdpc/supporter/active/paxed] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:33 <+greensnark> When I start a tutorial character, there's frantic --More-- spam and then it dies horribly 09:33 < Napkin> can i help testing? 09:34 <+greensnark> Napkin: You can be a hero and get us a backtrace :D 09:34 <+greensnark> I should try windbg 09:34 < Napkin> of? 09:34 <+greensnark> Napkin: Tutorial crash on windows console build 09:34 <+due> I can't get it to compile 09:34 <+due> I hate windows 09:34 <+greensnark> Just start a tutorial character, and the first tutorial welcome messages will blow Crawl away 09:34 <+due> greensnark: It takes me the third or fourth message, here. 09:34 <+due> But I can defiitely confirm it. 09:34 < Napkin> the current build on cdo? 09:35 <+due> Yeah. 09:35 <+by> centaur hunter tutorial also seems to break on tiles/mac for me 09:35 <+by> can't get past the tutorial char choice screen 09:35 <+due> Hm 09:35 <+due> Does it work in Linux? 09:35 <+by> no idea, but probably not 09:35 <+due> I'll make a local tiles build. 09:35 <+due> Maybe that'll give us a nice backtrace. 09:36 <+by> http://sprunge.us/VFYH 09:36 <+by> got to go now, later 09:37 <+due> hello! 09:37 < Napkin> works here 09:37 <+due> delightful 09:37 < Napkin> apart from the fact that the messages are drawn in the wrong parts of the screen 09:37 <+due> So, it doesn't always crash 09:37 < Napkin> minoraur didn't crash 09:38 <+due> Napkin: Initial screen or all of them? 09:38 < felirx> minotaur eventually crashed when I tried 09:38 < Napkin> all additional 09:38 <+due> hm 09:38 < Napkin> the initial screen is fine 09:38 <+due> felirx: What oS? 09:38 < felirx> win7 / tiles 09:38 <+due> Hm, winxp/notiles got a crash on CeHu/all of them. 09:39 < Napkin> would screenshots help? 09:39 <+by> might help to replace the c_getch() in readkey_more with a version that doesn't issue a flush_prev_message 09:40 < Napkin> should I make screenshots? 09:40 <+due> Napkin: May as well 09:42 < Napkin> http://ipxserver.dyndns.org/misc/crash/ 09:42 < Napkin> they are in order 09:42 < Napkin> that's a WinXP SP3 09:43 <+due> I get to screen three and it dies. 09:43 < Napkin> I tried all 3 chars 09:44 -!- paxed [n=paxed@pdpc/supporter/active/paxed] has joined ##crawl-dev 09:44 <+due> hey paxed 09:44 <+due> I don't really understand windows at all 09:45 < Napkin> that's part of the idea behind it, due ;) 09:45 <+due> hehehe 09:45 <+due> I have half a mind to commit this. 09:45 <+due> It seems to work as intended. 09:45 <+due> It'll just break user scripts. 09:46 -!- scarf is now known as scarf|away 09:46 <+due> But I don't think we should hesitate to update something that is klutzy just because it might break end-user scripts. 09:46 -!- scarf|away is now known as scarf 09:46 < Napkin> anyone using scripts? 09:47 <+due> No, just the item interface 09:47 <+due> it's gone from 09:47 <+due> item.name(it) 09:47 <+due> to it.name() 09:47 < Napkin> uuhmm.. ok 09:47 <+due> :) 09:48 < Napkin> time for me to shut up and get coffee ;) 09:48 <+due> greensnark: I basically just copied and pasted the original functions, so the only information leak existent would be any pre-existing issues. 09:51 <+greensnark> due: Sounds fine to me 09:51 <+greensnark> When I say user scripts, I mean the ones in dat/lua 09:51 <+greensnark> We should update those 09:51 <+due> I have 09:51 <+due> I've also updated the vaults that use it 09:51 <+greensnark> Stuff that the users put in their .crawlrc is their problem 09:52 <+due> The end-user scripts aren't our problem, yeah. 09:52 <+due> I'm also renaming the item library to "items". 09:52 <+due> so "items.inventory()" instead of "item.inventory()" 09:52 <+due> because trying to use item.inventory() in a vault definition clashes with the dgn.item() specifier 09:54 <+due> Okay, I get a crash in Linux build tiles. 09:54 <+due> It's roughly identical to the one that rob posted earlier. 09:54 <+greensnark> due: Yes, items is better 09:54 -!- dexap [n=paxed@pdpc/supporter/active/paxed] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:54 -!- Zaba_ [n=zaba@ip102.148.adsl.wplus.ru] has joined ##crawl-dev 09:54 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v Zaba_] by ChanServ 09:54 <+greensnark> Tiles, huh 09:55 <+greensnark> The crashes may not be related 09:55 <+greensnark> But good ot fix em 09:55 <+due> I've no idea how to fix them :) 09:55 * greensnark attempts a tiles build. 09:55 <+greensnark> Every single time 09:55 <+greensnark> I have to look up whether it's TILES=y or USE_TILES=y 09:56 <+due> We should fix that 09:56 <+due> 'cos it's USE_DGAMELAUNCH 09:56 -!- scarf is now known as scarf|away 09:56 -!- ogaz [n=chatzill@c-98-242-45-110.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:56 <+greensnark> We should just drop the USE_ lameness 09:56 <+due> Or alias USE_TILES to TILES, and DGAMELAUNCH to USE_DGAMELAUNCH. 09:56 -!- scarf|away is now known as scarf 09:57 <+due> wb, scarf. 09:57 * due is cold, wraps scarf around neck. 09:57 <+greensnark> When in doubt, choose the alternative that's easier to type! 09:57 <+due> We can't rename USE_DGAMELAUNCH though, Napking may scream "off wit htheir heads!" 09:57 < scarf> it's almost 9am now, I may have to go to bed 09:59 <+due> clua_check_item does't seem to be used 10:00 < Napkin> i'm ok with it.. just let me know in time 10:00 <+due> Napkin: :) 10:01 <+greensnark> Ok, I have a pretty backtrace for the tiles crash on Mac 10:01 * greensnark needs scroll lock :P 10:02 * due locks greensnark scrolls up in a tea chest, throws them into the river near Boston. 10:02 <+greensnark> http://sprunge.us/HFNN 10:02 <+greensnark> by: Looks like flush_prev_message is the culprit 10:03 <+due> Oh, interesting 10:03 <+due> mine is different 10:03 <+due> mine complains about vsprintf a lot 10:03 -!- Zaba [n=zaba@about/goats/billygoat/zaba] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:04 <+greensnark> It's a stack overflow, so it'll eventually crash badly somewhere 10:05 <+greensnark> I've just pasted the frames that led to the death spiral 10:05 <+due> ah 10:05 -!- dexap [n=paxed@pdpc/supporter/active/paxed] has joined ##crawl-dev 10:05 <+due> I had another look at the foe code this morning, for alligators. I ran away screaming, argh. That is so hideously confusing. 10:06 <+due> and someone in ##crawl was complaining that our renaming crocodiles meant that crocodiles were as strong as baby alligators, and that was Wrong. 10:07 <+due> I told them to go awya and complain to someone who cared :D 10:07 <+greensnark> You were too cruel to the alligators, btw :P 10:07 <+due> Why? 10:07 <+greensnark> They should be stronger :) 10:07 <+due> I debated it. 10:07 <+due> @??alligator 10:07 < Gretell> alligator (t) | Speed: 10 (act: 80%; swim: 60%) | HD: 12 | Health: 36-108 | AC/EV: 5/9 | Damage: 30 | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: magic(48) | XP: 962 | Sp: swiftness. 10:07 <+greensnark> They lose 1v1 with a lowly snapping turtle :) 10:07 <+due> They're still pretty buff. 10:07 <+due> @??snapping turtle 10:07 < Gretell> snapping turtle (t) | Speed: 9 (act: 80%; swim: 60%) | HD: 10 | Health: 30-90 | AC/EV: 16/5 | Damage: 30(reach) | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: magic(40) | XP: 281. 10:08 <+due> You think I should buff them again? 10:08 <+greensnark> 35 at least 10:08 <+greensnark> Why not give them a nice 15 damage tail slap 10:08 <+due> that is an *excellent* idea 10:08 <+greensnark> And leave the primary bite at 30 10:08 <+due> !fight alligator band v snapping turtle 10:09 <+sorear> Why 80% act? 10:09 <+due> We need Varmin in here 10:09 <+greensnark> They should be able to beat snapping turtles :) 10:09 <+greensnark> Alligator band?! 10:09 <+greensnark> Tromboniss? 10:09 <+due> Oh, bah, did I commit the 80% act? 10:09 <+due> greensnark: Mummy + babies. 10:10 <+greensnark> No trombones? 10:10 <+greensnark> I feel cheated 10:10 <+due> No trombone. 10:10 <+greensnark> Maybe the babies could get harmonicas 10:11 <+due> They were originally goin gto be speed 9, act 80% like snapping turtles, so you could see the swiftness effect more clearly. 10:11 <+due> But that just made them slow and boring. 10:12 -!- scarf is now known as scarf|away 10:12 -!- MarvinPA-2 [n=marvin@cpc2-aztw19-0-0-cust376.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 10:15 -!- scarf|away is now known as scarf 10:16 -!- paxed [n=paxed@pdpc/supporter/active/paxed] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:19 -!- scarf [n=scarf@unaffiliated/ais523] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:19 <+due> greensnark: Is clua_check_item ever used? 10:21 <+greensnark> Don't recall :P 10:22 <+greensnark> Most of the item access stuff was written pre-0.1 :P 10:22 <+due> Oh really? 10:22 <+due> Cool :) 10:22 < Napkin> The giant cockroach misses you. x2 <- that's cool! 10:23 < Napkin> the "x2" i mean 10:23 <+due> I know! I love it 10:23 < Napkin> it's not colored in the same way though 10:23 <+greensnark> The giant cockroach is pining away without Napkin's society :) 10:23 < Napkin> hehehe 10:23 <+greensnark> "The giant cockroach misses you like the deserts miss the rain!" 10:24 < Napkin> :-P 10:24 < Napkin> is using blowgun still throwing skill? 10:25 <+due> Yes. 10:25 < Napkin> thanks :) 10:26 -!- paxed [n=paxed@pdpc/supporter/active/paxed] has joined ##crawl-dev 10:27 -!- MarvinPA [n=marvin@cpc2-aztw19-0-0-cust376.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:27 -!- MarvinPA-2 is now known as MarvinPA 10:28 <+due> Argh. 10:28 <+due> greensnark: Around? I have another few questions. 10:28 < Napkin> Search for what [Enter for "stair", or ? for help]? stairs 10:28 < Napkin> Can't find anything matching that. 10:28 <+due> Specifically regarding l_food.cc 10:28 < Napkin> should that not give a result? 10:29 * due perfoms testudinal saccrifice summoning ritual. 10:29 <+due> Wait, wrong one, that's the dpeg summoning ritual... 10:29 * due checks Book of Devology. 10:29 <+greensnark> due: Mention of amusing Mara encounter on SA :P 10:30 <+greensnark> http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3155652&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=131#post371467996 10:30 <+due> Aweosme! 10:30 <+greensnark> And don't tone him down under any crics :) 10:30 <+greensnark> *circs 10:30 <+due> greensnark: so, food.do_eat(item), will thee standard util_get_userdata(ls, lua_upvalueblahblah work in this instance? 10:31 <+greensnark> I thought you were wrapping item_def in a structure 10:31 <+greensnark> So you'd fetch the structure and then access the item_def* in it 10:32 <+due> hm 10:32 <+due> I am basing it on the l_mons stuff. 10:32 <+due> Which all use util_get_userdata. 10:32 <+greensnark> You can make clua_check_item do all that for you 10:32 <+due> Yeah, I have 10:32 <+due> LUA_ITEM(item) does it 10:33 <+due> But you'r eright 10:33 <+greensnark> LUA_ITEM just uses clua_check_item 10:33 <+due> I need sometihng like the MAP macro, yes? 10:33 <+due> luaL_checkudata(ls, n, DITEM_METATABLE)->mons? 10:33 <+due> Er, ->item? 10:33 <+greensnark> You just need to fix clua_check_item to unwrap the item_def* 10:33 <+greensnark> Yes, you can do that 10:34 <+due> Hm 10:34 <+due> Okay, that's the easy option 10:34 <+due> Okay, now 10:35 <+due> checkudata requires a parameter; for item.name(), the item is always parameter one, yes? Or does this need to use the upvalueindex? 10:35 <+due> (which is what the monster stuff seems to use) 10:35 <+due> oh 10:35 <+due> never mind 10:36 <+due> Yeah, I undersand completely now. Thanks! 10:37 <+due> They only need that because IDEFN pushes the lightuserdata version through. Hooray! 10:37 -!- dexap [n=paxed@pdpc/supporter/active/paxed] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:41 <+greensnark> If you get it wrong, the game will generally give you a gentle reminder by crashing, so it's easy to fix :) 10:42 <+due> Yeah :) 10:45 <+due> Hm 10:46 <+due> greensnark: I've got two metatables, one for DLUA, and one for CLUA... can I safely exchange them both? 10:46 <+due> As in, can LUA_ITEM call checkudata(ls, n, ITEM_METATABLE), evne if it's been passed the ditem metatable? 10:46 <+due> Or do I need two? 10:46 <+greensnark> You cannot mix them 10:47 <+greensnark> You can checkudata on the old one and push it back with the new one 10:47 <+due> Okay. 10:47 <+greensnark> Or if it's in C++, just use the old one to grab the item 10:47 <+greensnark> If possible, use just one metatable 10:47 <+due> Is it possible? 10:47 <+greensnark> Having two will usually cause confusion and regrettable incidents 10:47 <+due> Hm 10:47 <+due> it should be possible, thanks 10:48 <+greensnark> You can use ASSERT_DLUA to keep user scripts from being naughty 10:48 -!- dexap [n=paxed@pdpc/supporter/active/paxed] has joined ##crawl-dev 10:48 <+due> So, dump l_ditem, good idea. 10:50 <+greensnark> Hm, actually ASSERT_DLUA needs fixing 10:51 <+due> hooray 10:51 <+greensnark> Or people could macro a key to call a function that asserts, allowing them to reset their level 10:51 <+due> Nice. 10:51 <+greensnark> Reset level until you get a bazaar :P 10:52 <+greensnark> Oh, fine, it just raises a Lua error, no worries 10:52 <+due> HAHA 10:52 <+greensnark> I thought it did a literal assert 10:52 <+greensnark> :P 10:52 <+due> Yeah, I as going to say 10:52 -!- paxed [n=paxed@pdpc/supporter/active/paxed] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 10:52 -!- dexap is now known as paxed 10:52 <+greensnark> Oh hey, I wrote that :P 10:52 <+greensnark> How did I forget :P 10:52 <+greensnark> My mind is like a sieve 10:53 <+greensnark> Or is it colander 10:53 <+greensnark> One of them things 10:53 * due drains pasta in greensnark's mind. 10:53 <+greensnark> One of them thar things with holes in them 10:55 -!- syllogism [i=syllogis@85-131-29-172.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined ##crawl-dev 10:56 <+greensnark> syllogism: Do you get the X crash with the latest code? 10:56 < syllogism> i'll try 10:56 <+greensnark> I was not able to repro the X crash 10:57 <+due> Me neither. 11:00 < syllogism> no 11:00 <+due> greensnark: #define LUA_ITEM(ls, name, n) \ 11:00 <+due> item_def **item = *(item_def **) luaL_checkudata(ls, n, ITEM_METATABLE)->item 11:00 < syllogism> that's weird 11:00 <+due> What is teh borked? 11:00 <+due> Oh, **item 11:01 <+due> Hm, still getting void* is not a pointer-to-object type. 11:01 < syllogism> unless someone quietly fixed it :P 11:01 <+due> Hooray, there we go. 11:01 < felirx> compiling crawl from the clean git clone with msvc is not... fun 11:02 <+due> felirx: Did you install the submodules etc? 11:02 <+greensnark> due: You're casting it to item_def ** 11:02 <+greensnark> Shouldn't that be your item wrapper struct 11:02 < felirx> the submoduls is the problem, first to get SDL to compile I had to update my dxSDK and so on 11:04 < felirx> there's also nonexisting stuff in the projeckt 11:04 <+due> greensnark: It seems to work fine, oddly enough. 11:05 < felirx> monplace.cc instead of mon-place for instance :( 11:05 <+due> felirx: Yuck. 11:05 <+due> greensnark: None of us use MSVC is the problem. 11:05 <+due> ... felirx, rather. 11:05 <+due> And there's been further splits and stuff recently. Go off makefile.obj, if you ca. 11:06 < felirx> I use msvc pretty much just for the debugger. It's the best one I've found this far for windows 11:06 < felirx> the make compile works fine naturally 11:06 <+due> If you do get the MSCV project working, can you submit a patch to fix it? 11:07 <+due> I'll commit it. 11:07 <+greensnark> Hey I got a croc in the Lair :P 11:07 <+due> :D croc <3 11:07 <+greensnark> Pity they're so weak :) 11:07 < purge> of zin? lol 11:07 <+greensnark> purge: This is the same game :P 11:07 < purge> oh hah nice 11:08 < purge> get sanctuary yet? 11:08 <+greensnark> Of course not :P 11:08 < purge> ah thats right your still deciding if your doing a suicide shoals run? 11:08 <+greensnark> I'd like to make it to Shoal:5 11:09 <+greensnark> Which is not likely at this point, so 11:09 -!- dexap [n=paxed@pdpc/supporter/active/paxed] has joined ##crawl-dev 11:11 -!- paxed [n=paxed@pdpc/supporter/active/paxed] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 11:11 -!- dexap is now known as paxed 11:11 < purge> greensnark: don't forget to preach to the orcs! 11:11 <+greensnark> Don't have recite :P 11:12 * due preaches to the converted. 11:14 < syllogism> does AEVP get rounded down 11:14 <+greensnark> Yes 11:14 <+due> greensnark: Write-up on the AC changes, plz! <333 11:15 <+due> Otherwise I'll post your commit message to the blog. 11:15 < syllogism> casting a l9 spell in a crystal plate is somewhat reasonable then 11:15 < syllogism> with vehumet it's even relatively easy 11:15 <+greensnark> Yeah 11:15 < syllogism> if you are a high elf :P 11:15 <+greensnark> But GDR is less, so... 11:15 <+greensnark> I've really not studied the numbers in depth :) 11:15 < syllogism> yeah but gdr doesn't do anything :P 11:16 <+greensnark> I assumed you and dpeg had done the sanity checks :) 11:16 < syllogism> well casting l9 spells in heavy armour still requires grinding 11:16 < syllogism> not like it's an issue 11:16 <+greensnark> If things need fixing, let me know :) 11:16 <+greensnark> I've never played a heavy armour caster 11:16 <+greensnark> due: I'm just the code monkey on that change :) 11:16 <+due> Hm. 11:17 <+due> Maybe syllogism can do a write-up! 11:17 <+greensnark> You should get dpeg or syllogism or DrPraetor, yeah 11:17 < syllogism> no :P 11:17 <+due> syllogism it is! 11:17 <+greensnark> due will send you delicious turtle soup 11:17 <+greensnark> With chunks of roast alligator 11:17 <+greensnark> Roasted with pepper 11:19 <+due> greensnark: Will you be able to sanity check this commit before I make it? 11:19 <+greensnark> syllogism: Did you see the post by the person who got Mara who summoned an illusion that blew up Mara with IOOD? :P 11:20 <+greensnark> due: Sure 11:20 <+due> I'm sure I'll have missed something or borken it. 11:20 < syllogism> hah, no 11:20 <+greensnark> SA 11:20 <+due> http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3155652&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=131#post371467996 11:21 < syllogism> I wonder how much damage ghost OODs are doing :P 11:22 <+greensnark> I haven't been able to get monsters to cast it :P 11:22 <+greensnark> I guess they cast it only at the player? 11:22 <+due> http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/digital-life/digital-life-news/a-tablet-to-cure-the-apple-fanboys-anxiety-20100122-mqpd.html 11:22 <+due> This is hilarous. 11:23 <+due> I just honestly hope Apple don't release a table, just so I can point, and laugh. 11:23 <+due> also, wrong channel, sorry. 11:25 -!- purge [n=IceChat7@d192-24-82-173.try.wideopenwest.com] has quit ["."] 11:29 -!- st [n=s@cpc1-stre3-0-0-cust207.bagu.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 11:29 -!- st [n=s@cpc1-stre3-0-0-cust207.bagu.cable.ntl.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 11:29 -!- st [n=s@cpc1-stre3-0-0-cust207.bagu.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 11:30 -!- st_ [n=s@cpc1-stre3-0-0-cust207.bagu.cable.ntl.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 11:43 <+greensnark> due: You know what we need 11:43 <+greensnark> We need to allow the Lernaean hydra to knock down trees <3 11:43 <+due> ... That is an excellent idea. 11:46 <+due> Isn't that power creep, though? 11:46 <+due> Anyway, we need a Lua trap where a boulder beetle drops from the ceiling. 11:47 <+greensnark> It's not power creep 11:47 <+greensnark> Lernaean hydra is useless :P 11:47 <+greensnark> It should be awe inspiring! 11:47 <+greensnark> Instead its only trick is having 30 HD so it shrugs off sticky flame really quick :P 11:48 < CIA-81> greensnark * r019904d2483f /crawl-ref/source/fight.cc: Allow hand-and-half bonus even if the player qualifies for aux unarmed rounds (affects only minimum attack speed). 11:52 <+due> greensnark: I think I'm done with items. Can I send you the patch? I'm sure I'v emissed something, but I don't knkow what. 11:52 <+greensnark> Sure 11:54 <+due> Or I could psprunge. 11:54 <+due> http://sprunge.us/dOfX 11:54 <+by> back 11:54 <+due> wb! 11:55 <+greensnark> due: push_item pushes an ItemWrap 11:56 <+greensnark> So clua_check_item should retrieve the ItemWrap, not an item_def directly 11:56 <+due> hm 11:56 <+due> so ItemWrap()blah blah? 11:57 <+due> It should probably check that the item is valid as well, come to think of it. 11:57 <+due> Is ItemWrap really neccessary? 11:58 <+greensnark> #define LUA_ITEM(ls, name, n) \ 11:58 <+greensnark> item_def *item = clua_get_userdata(ls, ITEM_METATABLE, n)->item 11:58 <+due> ah 11:58 <+greensnark> ItemWrap is not necessary unless you want to add additional properties at some point 11:58 <+greensnark> MonsterWrap tracks the turn number that the monster info is valid 11:58 <+due> which we might eventually 11:58 <+greensnark> So that user scripts cannot hang on to the monster, and query it for position after it wanders out of LOS 11:59 <+due> Right-o. 12:04 < CIA-81> by * r6f76b8ac1f53 /crawl-ref/source/ (libw32c.cc tilesdl.cc): Don't call flush_prev_message in c_getch in tiles or w32. 12:04 <+due> Hm, fell through a shaft and didn't get a milestone. 12:04 <+due> Only fell one level, though. 12:04 <+by> due: how deep? it only reports >1 level difference 12:05 <+due> ah 12:05 <+by> I'd like to know whether this fixes (some of) the windows crashes 12:07 <+due> I can update the CDO builds, but I don't have access to the windows PC any more 12:07 <+due> greensnark? 12:09 <+due> Okay, item_wrap gone. 12:11 <+greensnark> I can check on Windows 12:14 <+due> Woohoo, segfault! 12:15 <+due> Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault. 12:15 <+due> 0xb7f096d9 in std::string::empty () from /usr/lib/libstdc++.so.6 12:16 <+due> Anyone got any ideas o nwhat that means? 12:16 < Mu_> i don't crash using X now 12:16 <+greensnark> due: show us a backtrace 12:16 <+due> Mu_: yay 12:16 <+due> ah, now It's in memcpy. 12:17 <+due> greensnark: http://pastebin.ca/1763820 12:18 <+greensnark> Looks like you're not retrieving or pushing the item correctly 12:18 <+greensnark> So it's essentially fetching an arbitrary blob of memory and trying to treat it like an item 12:18 <+greensnark> And crashing because it isn't 12:19 <+due> Hm. 12:19 <+greensnark> Check that you're pushing the item correctly and retrieving it in the same way 12:19 <+due> Which is odd, because when it works, it's using ItemWrap and doing a straight conversion. 12:19 <+due> Oh. 12:20 <+due> clua_new_userdata< item_def >(ls, ITEM_METATABLE); doesn't actually push the item. 12:20 <+due> Duh. 12:21 <+greensnark> by: tutorial is fine in Windows now 12:21 <+greensnark> You shouldn't be directly pushing item_defs 12:21 <+greensnark> You should be pushing item_def* 12:21 <+greensnark> If you push item_def, you'll run into issues with C++ constructors not being run 12:21 <+greensnark> And general crashiness 12:22 <+due> Yeah. 12:22 <+due> I'm just converting it. 12:23 <+due> Okay, that makes more sense now. 12:23 <+greensnark> Why on earth does the Lernaean hydra lose the "the" :/ 12:24 <+greensnark> It seems to be defined much the same way as the royal jelly 12:25 <+due> greensnark: http://sprunge.us/bALF 12:25 <+due> greensnark: Does that work correctly? 12:25 <+greensnark> due: Yes, that looks right 12:26 <+due> Excellent; you didn't see any other issues? 12:27 <+greensnark> Looks fine 12:27 <+greensnark> From a brief glance :) 12:27 <+due> Hooray 12:28 * due commits further breakage. 12:28 <+due> I think I actually understand how a lot of this works. 12:33 <+due> okay, now we have an item library that is fun to use, hooray! 12:48 <+by> greensnark, Mu_: thanks for checking! 12:48 < CIA-81> greensnark * r6f65497b7f71 /crawl-ref/source/ (7 files in 2 dirs): The Lernaean hydra can now knock down trees, and is SIZE_HUGE. 12:48 * greensnark laughs demonically. 12:49 <+greensnark> Next time someone tries hiding behind a clump of trees, they're so going to get what's coming to them 12:49 <+due> ... 12:49 <+due> I love you. 12:52 < felirx> while compiling SDL for crawl from msvc, directX support is enabled. While compiling with mingw32, directX support is disabled. Is this wanted behaviour? 12:53 <+greensnark> It might not be intentional 12:53 <+greensnark> I guess neunon or Napkin might know 12:56 < felirx> mainly if the dx support is compiled in, it pretty much means if you want to compile crawl with msvc you need to get dxSDK which is a 500meg+ download 12:57 <+greensnark> 500M?! 12:57 <+due> I'd disable it, then. 12:57 <+greensnark> Wow 12:57 <+greensnark> Does the DX support make it faster? 12:57 < felirx> I doubt 12:58 <+due> Yeah, disable. 13:03 < Napkin> could someone check that to make sure? 13:04 < Napkin> and what about the official sdl.dlls - do they have directx support enabled? 13:04 <+due> Okay, gonna push this 13:04 <+by> maybe the c.d.o windows builds could be updated? 13:05 <+due> by: Will do so shortly 13:06 <+due> Hm 13:06 <+due> Okay, this commit broke the stash tracker 13:06 <+by> thanks! 13:06 <+due> Or at least, the recent annotations changes 13:07 <+due> greensnark: Any idea how to fiix that? 13:07 < felirx> of course you can cheat and use prebuild libsdl and .dll from libsdl.org mm 13:07 <+due> ^Fartefact no longer works. 13:07 <+due> (while standing near an artefact cloak on V:80 13:07 <+greensnark> Commit the change, we'll fix the damage 13:07 <+greensnark> Easier than schlepping patches around :) 13:07 <+due> :D 13:08 <+due> Pushed. 13:08 < CIA-81> due * rd15f7f13d9e7 /crawl-ref/source/ (13 files in 4 dirs): Convert items Lua library to use metatable. May case end-user issues. 13:08 <+due> ^ 13:08 <+greensnark> May case end users, eh :P 13:08 <+due> ARGH. 13:08 <+due> Oh well. 13:09 <+due> Oh, alligator timidity. Any ideas wher eI should look in mon-behv? 13:09 <+greensnark> handle_behaviour function probably 13:10 <+due> Maybe I'll jsut leave that to someone who has a chance of making it work :) 13:10 <+greensnark> I'll take a look real soon now 13:11 <+due> mons_flattens_trees <3333333 13:11 <+due> Oh, sorry, I didn't mean to come across like I was pestering you 13:12 <+greensnark> Ah, the stash tracker was pushing the item as userdata 13:12 <+greensnark> *light userdata 13:13 <+due> Ahh 13:13 <+due> It doesn't use push_item or anything like that, which is probably why my grep missed it. 13:13 <+greensnark> I get wails of despair from stash.lua when I start up a game :P 13:13 <+greensnark> Right, it uses callfn with 'u' as the parameter type 13:13 <+greensnark> Which just pushes light userdata 13:14 <+due> What's the exclusive item thing for, anyway? 13:14 * greensnark bellows with rage at morons who let their car alarms go off in the basement. 13:14 <+due> yaksnark? 13:14 <+due> greenyak? 13:16 < felirx> even if I use prebuilt win32 sdl dll, tilegen wants to be linked to dxguid.lib 13:16 <+due> I must admit, I think crocodiles ar emore cool than giant lizards. 13:17 <+greensnark> The exclusive items thing was protection against end-users 13:17 <+due> Ah 13:17 <+greensnark> The item properties functions would return nil if called on any other item 13:17 <+greensnark> Any item other than the bound exclusive item 13:17 <+due> Ahh, okay. 13:17 <+greensnark> But most of those checks have fallen by the wayside :P 13:17 <+due> Which isn't necessary now, right? 13:18 <+greensnark> Well, it could be abused 13:18 <+due> Ah. 13:18 <+greensnark> You can hang on to an item ref 13:18 <+due> How do we prevent this, then? 13:18 <+greensnark> In scripts 13:18 <+greensnark> And when you move across levels it'll become a different item on that level 13:18 <+by> how to continue debugging after evaluating an expression in gdb caused a signal? 13:18 <+greensnark> Etc. 13:18 <+due> Hm. 13:19 <+due> In which case, we should probably do the same turn thing as with monsters, right? 13:19 <+due> by: c? 13:19 <+due> or "continue" 13:19 <+greensnark> Well, for now I'm not going to worry about this 13:19 <+due> Okay 13:19 <+by> it keeps trying to continue evaluating that expression... 13:20 <+greensnark> We may eventually have to disable Lua accessible to end users 13:20 <+greensnark> There are too many potential isues 13:20 <+due> ah. 13:20 <+due> Sounds like fun. 13:21 <+due> I must admit, I love the new lair so much. 13:22 <+by> greensnark: I'd suggest to not share libraries/objects between clua and dlua 13:22 <+by> well, just in the one direction 13:23 <+by> like l_moninf.cc (which I did because I thought l_mons wasn't user accessible) 13:25 <+greensnark> by: The problem is that every user-visible API is potentiall problematic and must be carefully evaluated 13:25 <+greensnark> And we don't have the kind of time and energy to devote to that 13:25 <+greensnark> Even with the current user API, I'm sure there are dozens of ways to abuse it on public servers 13:25 <+by> argh, tutorial messes with Options.clear_messages after a number of messages have already been printed (debug at least) 13:26 <+greensnark> Lua that's used by developers is perfectly okay, because we know there's no malicious code 13:26 <+due> Oh hey, cool, I got my swamp entry! 13:26 <+greensnark> Yay! 13:26 <+greensnark> @whereis bookofjude 13:26 < Gretell> bookofjude the Nimble (L12 SpBe), a worshipper of Trog, is currently on Lair:2 after 16613 turns. 13:27 <+by> I'd love to have enough information exported through safe Lua libraries to be able to do the interface in client Lua 13:27 <+greensnark> Maybe you'll get your Swamp:$ level as well 13:27 <+greensnark> by: That was my original intent, as well, but it's Hard :) 13:27 <+due> greensnark: Isn't it pretty? 13:27 <+greensnark> Something as simple as allowing Lua to access items 13:27 <+greensnark> Unless you copy the item, the user could hang on to the item pointer and query it after they go offlevel 13:27 <+due> greensnark: Also, I have three Swamp ends to my name. 13:27 <+due> The most of anyone. 13:28 <+greensnark> Or after dropping the item 13:28 <+by> greensnark: re abuse, are you thinking of cheating, or something worse? 13:28 <+greensnark> by: Mainly cheating 13:28 <+greensnark> Crashiness is possible, but I can't offhand think of how it could be used to run malicious code 13:28 <+greensnark> *malicious native code 13:28 <+due> Oh, this is odd 13:28 <+greensnark> However, I am not a black hat :P 13:29 <+due> I think lair shouldn't use city_level 13:29 <+due> Or maybe very rarely. 13:29 <+greensnark> by: It'd be much easier if only the server admin or users playing local Crawl could edit Lua 13:29 <+greensnark> That way, if someone comes up with an awesome new UI using Lua, we can include it with the game 13:30 <+greensnark> Or they could persuade the server admin to put it on the server 13:30 <+greensnark> Like .des files, actually 13:30 <+greensnark> But either way, it's a complex story :) 13:30 <+due> oh holy craap 13:31 <+due> Too many shafts, that needs to be looked at for 0.6 13:31 <+by> I think an approach like what l_moninf does should be ok -- not saying it can't be exploited right now, but it's meant to not hand out a reference to the monster, but an info object rendered from the monster 13:32 <+greensnark> by: Yes, that's much safer 13:32 <+greensnark> A table with the properties involved 13:32 <+greensnark> Or a copied item 13:32 <+due> It's a good idea. 13:32 <+greensnark> But if you want to modify items, you must separate the APIs 13:34 <+due> Which is a pain. 13:34 <+greensnark> Is there any Lua that relies on modifyin items? 13:35 <+greensnark> We can just copy the item 13:35 <+by> are annotations store in the item? 13:35 <+greensnark> Yes 13:36 <+by> client lua should probably only have access to items in the inventory 13:37 <+due> But that's dlua anyway, isn't it? 13:37 <+greensnark> Items in inventory and floor items visible to player 13:37 <+greensnark> due: Is there any code that wants to modify items? 13:37 <+greensnark> Lua, I mean 13:37 <+due> User-lua wise? 13:37 <+greensnark> No 13:38 <+due> dlua-wise/ 13:38 <+greensnark> User Lua cannot atm 13:38 <+due> Yes 13:38 <+due> Some vaults destroy items 13:38 <+due> the trove entries will either destroy or decrement the quantity of items 13:38 <+greensnark> Hm 13:38 <+due> That's why I debated splitting the item-manipulation code out into a separate library. 13:39 <+greensnark> We may yet have to do that 13:41 <+due> I'll probably end up adding more functions to l_items to finish off troves. 13:41 <+due> Or at least to make it sane. 13:42 <+due> But troves are mostly done apart from the stash search to actually decide on an option. 13:42 <+greensnark> So our only problem is controlling how user scripts access items 13:42 <+greensnark> I think we should just attach turn count to the item wrapper 13:42 <+greensnark> And disallow access if there's a turn count mismatch 13:42 <+due> That's easily done. 13:42 <+greensnark> That seems the simplest 13:43 <+due> only if it's clua, though? 13:43 <+greensnark> Yes, only if it's clua 13:43 <+due> Sounds good. 13:43 <+due> You doing it? 13:43 <+due> I've still got the ItemWrap code hanging around. 13:43 <+greensnark> Yes, will do 13:43 <+due> Oh 13:43 <+due> Hm, maybe I don't 13:44 <+due> I should be asleep anyway :0 13:44 <+greensnark> No worries, it's easy :) 13:44 <+due> hooray 13:44 <+due> I'll update CDO and the binaries when we're done 13:47 <+due> You know 13:47 <+due> Every time i run into maud, I have half a mind to implement Entarex. 13:47 <+due> she should pacify if you drpo the sword, and should immediately pick it up! 13:51 <+due> God acquirement is still broken 13:52 <+due> I've kept the sling Trog gave me four gifts ago 13:52 <+due> my last two gifts were a sling and a crossbow 13:54 < CIA-81> by * r8d1597fae9ff /crawl-ref/source/beam.cc: Fix explosion drawing with messages_at_top. 14:01 < felirx> http://pastebin.com/d7cfa19e4 14:01 <+due> Yuck. 14:01 <+due> by might be the person to ask about the stuff. 14:03 < felirx> <3 nonstandard function definitions by compilers 14:03 <+by> not really, I always get the C library headers wrong myself and don't know about visual studio 14:04 < felirx> mainly, MSVC does not implement round() 14:04 < felirx> it's a gcc own addition 14:06 <+due> cool 14:07 <+Zaba_> well no, round() is posix 14:07 <+Zaba_> and also c99 14:07 < Eifel> ;-) 14:07 < CIA-81> by * rba8c91386a23 /crawl-ref/source/ (coord-circle.cc dgn-shoals.cc): Disambiguate uses of sqrt by casting to double. 14:07 <+by> that should fix the first errors 14:07 -!- hotsun [i=hotsun@203.20.62.227] has joined ##crawl-dev 14:08 <+due> oh jesus christ 14:08 <+due> Zaba_: >:| 14:08 < Napkin> gotta love the error message: error C2668 14:08 <+Zaba_> due, me? 14:08 <+due> Napkin: aargh, let's stab Zaba_. 14:08 <+due> Zaba_: ant nest. 14:08 <+Zaba_> I didn't do nuthin! 14:08 <+Zaba_> oh. 14:08 < Napkin> lol 14:08 <+Zaba_> yes, I reckon it's partly my fault, but it was dpeg's idea! 14:09 <+due> At least they're not rpois. 14:09 <+Zaba_> well okay, it *was* my idea, but he approved it 14:09 <+due> no, they're good vaults 14:09 <+due> just ants are scary 14:09 < felirx> mmm maybe msvc2008 has applied some modern conventions 14:10 < Napkin> hey Eifel :) 14:10 * Eifel defines Napkin=="error C2668" 14:10 <+by> Zaba_: will you do the missing "round"? 14:10 < Eifel> Howdy! :D 14:10 <+due> "divide by napkin" error? 14:11 <+Zaba_> what should be done about it? 14:11 < Napkin> :-P 14:11 <+due> my lair, it is infested with ants 14:12 <+due> YAY 14:12 <+due> I GOT SHOALS 14:12 <+due> Should I try it early? 14:12 <+by> of course. but get a second opinion from greensnark 14:12 <+due> greensnark: In shoals! 14:13 <+by> Zaba_: I don't know :) 14:13 <+Zaba_> by, personally I'd wait for msvc to catch up with modern standards.. but that's not a very appropriate action in the current situation. 14:13 < Napkin> http://www.codecogs.com/reference/c/math.h/round.php <- very bottom 14:13 <+by> there's msvc.h; should we just put an inline implementation of round in there? 14:14 < Napkin> "Simple though to replicate with the floor command, i.e. round(x) == floor(x+0.5)." 14:14 < felirx> there's pretty much 2 solutions 14:14 < felirx> either make inline implementation, or just nuke msvc support 14:14 * due supports the latter. ;) 14:14 <+Zaba_> floor(a+0.5); is close enough to it, just as per the link Napkin pasted 14:15 < felirx> + inline int round(double d) { 14:15 < felirx> + return (d>0) ? int(d+0.5) : int(d-0.5); 14:15 < felirx> + } 14:15 < felirx> works with negative and positive 14:15 < felirx> floor a+0.5 fails with negative a 14:21 -!- hotsun [i=hotsun@203.20.62.227] has quit [" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Now with extra fish!"] 14:25 <+greensnark> due: By all means do it early if you like to splat :P 14:25 <+due> greensnark: Well, I killed Mara, Francis and Duane at XL... 13! 14:25 <+due> Mara = three berserk iron trolls. 14:26 <+greensnark> Francis and Duane are amateurs :P 14:26 <+greensnark> They might as well have been painted on the backdrop :P 14:26 <+greensnark> But congrats on offing Mara :P 14:26 <+greensnark> I would like to point out that being in loco parentis to Mara, it might have been more graceful to die to him than to kill him 14:27 < CIA-81> greensnark * r73905f957c3a /crawl-ref/source/ (clua.cc cluautil.h l_item.cc l_libs.h l_mons.cc stash.cc): Fix stash-tracker item annotations and restrict user scripts to access items only on the same turn the items were wrapped for Lua by the core C++ code. 14:30 <+due> <3 14:30 <+due> Oh, alligators need tail slapping 14:31 < CIA-81> greensnark * r2be18d1431c3 /crawl-ref/source/clua.cc: Throw a Lua error instead of killing Crawl if a Lua state does not have a known matching clua (this can happen when coroutines are involved). 14:33 <+due> Ran out of food. 14:33 <+due> Also, harpy food theft is annoying. 14:33 <+due> As in, infuritating and grinding annoying, to the point of it being saner to leaveone's food outside of Shoals and go back for it when hungry. 14:33 <+greensnark> :/ 14:33 <+greensnark> You have to bring that up with dpeg :/ 14:34 <+greensnark> He and jpeg worked on harpies 14:34 <+greensnark> I agree that their hitpoint attack is more interesting than the food attack 14:35 <+due> It's a cool ide.a 14:35 <+greensnark> "The harpy feasts on your liver" 14:35 <+greensnark> *critical hit* 14:35 <+due> Heh 14:35 -!- Timbermaw [n=riquez60@200.175.209.20.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined ##crawl-dev 14:35 <+due> It's especially annoying on my current char, because SpBe are food-scary. 14:35 <+greensnark> "The harpy devours your kidneys!" 14:36 < CIA-81> due * r6b0ad0f051fa /crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: Give (adult) alligators tail-slap attacks. 14:37 <+greensnark> Barely legal alligators? 14:37 <+due> :) 14:37 <+due> I knew someone was going to comment on that. 14:37 <+due> But I didn't want people to go "oh oh but how can a baby alligator tail slap you?". 14:38 <+due> Okay, will update the CDO builds, then sleep. 14:39 <+greensnark> Alligators should be a lot stronger if they're going to behave polite until poked :P 14:39 <+greensnark> How big is their tail slap 14:39 * greensnark checks. 14:39 <+due> 15 14:40 <+due> and they can get a further buff 14:40 <+due> @??alligator 14:40 < Gretell> alligator (t) | Speed: 10 (act: 80%; swim: 60%) | HD: 12 | Health: 36-108 | AC/EV: 5/9 | Damage: 30 | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: magic(48) | XP: 962 | Sp: swiftness. 14:40 <+due> @??alligator snapping turtle 14:40 < Gretell> alligator snapping turtle (t) | Speed: 8 (swim: 60%) | HD: 16 | Health: 112-176 | AC/EV: 19/1 | Damage: 50(reach) | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: magic(64) | XP: 1125. 14:40 <+due> Might go 40, 20 instead. :> 14:41 <+greensnark> That would make them scary :) 14:41 <+greensnark> Which is good :) 14:41 <+due> :D 14:41 <+greensnark> How common are they? 14:41 <+due> One or two per Swamp level 14:41 <+greensnark> Sounds fine 14:41 <+due> Yeah 14:41 <+due> I had them near the bottom of the list 14:41 <+due> I got one in the entire Swamp 14:41 <+due> This was bad. 14:42 <+greensnark> It's not too bad to have the occasional rare monster, but Swamp doesn't have major threats apart from hydras 14:42 <+greensnark> So it's good to mix it up a little 14:42 <+due> Swamp is relatively boring, yes. 14:42 <+greensnark> I left alligator snapping turtles quite rare for SHoals 14:42 <+due> Well, they have harpies and cool merfolk and stuff. 14:42 <+greensnark> Because Shoals has a bunch of strong monsters 14:42 <+greensnark> Yes 14:42 <+due> I still want poison dart frogs. 14:49 <+due> Master branch on CDO updated to: 0.6.0-a1-2658-g6b0ad0f (16.2) 14:50 * greensnark hands due a cookie. 14:51 <+due> I just press the "update" button, basicaally :) 14:51 <+due> Napkin did all the hard work! <3 14:51 * greensnark hands Napkin a cookie too. 14:53 <+Zaba_> @??crocodile 14:53 < Gretell> crocodile (t) | Speed: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 5 | Health: 15-40 | AC/EV: 4/10 | Damage: 20 | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: magic(20) | XP: 104. 14:53 <+due> New amphibious giant lizard. 14:53 <+Zaba_> people who make monsters look like pre-0.4 will have problems with all this new stuff. 14:54 <+greensnark> We should remove those scripts 14:54 <+greensnark> They've had long enough to adjust 14:54 * due needs to update the 052_monster_glyphs file. 14:54 <+Zaba_> but cbus will do miscast effects on us for that 14:54 <+greensnark> No 14:54 <+greensnark> He just pretends to be a Luddite 14:55 <+greensnark> Or we can update the glyphs :P 14:55 <+due> I'll update 'em. 14:56 < cbus> I'm running the new stuff 14:56 < cbus> but they are still inferior to the old 14:56 <+due> ... :o!!!?? 14:56 <+due> Wow :o 14:56 < cbus> fix the bug with clearing the back log with the clear delay thingie 14:56 <+Zaba_> cbus, what bug is that? 14:56 <+due> Back log clearing? 14:56 < cbus> the log in ^P is cleared 14:57 <+due> You can hit < to get less. 14:57 < cbus> and you have to scroll up with <> (didn't you used to be able to use 8 and 2 on the numpad?) 14:57 < cbus> I want more 14:57 < cbus> not less 15:01 <+due> Okay, goodnight folk 15:01 <+due> greensnark: I look forward to not splatting in Shoals tomorrow :) 15:02 < cbus> btw 15:02 <+greensnark> Where's the fun in not splatting :P 15:02 < cbus> how about adding more weapons to the staves class? 15:02 < cbus> (there are only 2 normal types) 15:03 -!- Vandal [i=Incite@cpe-75-185-204-99.woh.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:03 <+due> greensnark: I intend to ascend this SpBe. 15:03 <+due> !lg * char=SpBe s=name 15:03 < Henzell> 563 games for * (char=SpBe): 72x bookofjude, 66x Arival, 40x Daphnia, 34x Jaeger, 29x KiloByte, 25x ghia, 22x crepe, 20x IanKeith, 17x Ahrin, 17x Lactose, 15x Pineapple, 14x violetj, 12x splat, 11x NightMan, 11x Mayhem, 11x wasp, 9x josh, 8x CatEater, 5x stoc, 5x Siber, 5x Frosteey, 4x Iodinin, 4x Leissi, 3x renegade44, 3x puffycloud, 3x Phantom, 2x IronRobin, 2x Amadi, 2x 78291, 2x sorear, 2x Cho... 15:03 <+due> 72 and no wins. :( 15:06 < CIA-81> by * r9a9a26857f6b /crawl-ref/source/tutorial.cc: Clear messages before the tutorial messes with options. 15:07 <+greensnark> You might want to be careful in the Shoals, in that case :) 15:07 <+greensnark> It is delightfully dangerous at low levels :) 15:07 <+due> Yeah, I already left :0 15:07 <+due> // Although it's unfortunate to not be able to validate subvaults except a 15:07 <+due> // run-time, this allows subvaults to reference maps by tag that may not 15:07 <+due> // have been loaded yet. 15:07 <+due> That's not the same as the valudate prelude, right? 15:08 <+greensnark> No 15:08 <+due> Didn't think so. 15:09 < Mu_> :O 15:10 <+due> Okay, and the windows builds are update. 15:11 < cbus> are DS bugged? 15:11 < cbus> I'm at XP:5 and still no mutation 15:12 <+due> That's me off, bye! 15:12 <+greensnark> Nighty night 15:13 < Napkin> g'night due! 15:13 < Napkin> Ok, how to say "Bahnhof?!" in english? 15:13 < Napkin> git log 29850c7c4740a6537 15:13 <+due> Bahnhof? 15:14 <+due> Train station? 15:14 < Napkin> could someone wrap the info about AC/EV in some non-math statements? 15:14 <+due> What do trains have to do with Ac/EV? :) 15:14 <+due> Oh 15:15 <+due> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nur_Bahnhof_verstehen 15:15 < Napkin> exactly ;) 15:15 <+due> I love idioms. <3 15:15 <+due> I love how a train station iis involved in the German for "It's all greek to me". 15:15 <+due> (Though if you're looking at Greek text, you have to say "It's all Coptic to me".) 15:16 <+due> Goodnight for real! 15:16 < Napkin> hehe 15:16 < Napkin> g'night :) 15:19 < Napkin> and why is my precious broad axe so much worse than a katana now? :( 15:20 <+greensnark> Because katanas are going to be removed :P 15:20 < Napkin> 14/-2/16 compared to 14/3/12! that's extreme! 15:20 < Napkin> lol? 15:20 <+greensnark> It's not 15:20 <+greensnark> Broad axes are common as dirt 15:20 <+greensnark> Katanas are 1 in 10 games 15:21 <+greensnark> And they're probably going to be removed, as I said :P 15:21 < Napkin> ... ok 15:21 <+greensnark> I have no interest in cookie cutter weapon classes that are all alike, anyway 15:21 <+greensnark> And vanishingly small interest in making axes stronger :P 15:22 < Napkin> i should just stop reading changelogs? 15:22 <+greensnark> Why? 15:23 -!- Vandal [i=Incite@cpe-75-185-204-99.woh.res.rr.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 15:23 < Napkin> because I don't know what it's about anyways 15:25 <+greensnark> There were lots of links to the AC/EV changes floating around 15:25 <+greensnark> The commit just implements what is described on the wiki page 15:30 < Napkin> what's the problem with axes? 15:30 < Napkin> too many people use them? 15:32 <+greensnark> ... 15:32 <+greensnark> There is no problem with axes 15:34 < Napkin> see - that's why I should be strictly forbidden from reading changelogs ;) 15:34 < Napkin> I'm sorry 15:34 < Vandal> I have to be a registered nick to join ##crawl but not this one? 15:34 < Henzell> Vandal: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 15:34 < Vandal> !messages 15:34 < Henzell> (1/1) dpeg said (1w 1d 17h 32m 59s ago): If you're still up to adding more descriptions (please do!), then the new CDO feature might help you a bit. 15:34 < Vandal> new CDO feature? 15:41 <+Keskitalo> I'd guess dpeg refers to the knowledge bots? 15:41 <+Keskitalo> 1s 15:44 <+Keskitalo> Vandal: http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?page_id=214 15:44 <+Keskitalo> Here I assume "descriptions" meant monster descriptions. :) 15:45 < CIA-81> by * rce1dfc7b2b42 /crawl-ref/source/msvc.h: Provide an implementation of round() for MSVC. 15:45 <+by> felirx: could you check if it compiles now? 15:47 < bhaak> !tell dpeg it's just not healthy that I get so worked up because of usability fails in nethack and I blame YOU partly on that! ;-} 15:47 < Henzell> bhaak: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 15:47 <+Keskitalo> Yay, a new playtesting blog entry! 15:50 < felirx> it's not finding the new round function 15:51 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g direction-rewrite * re4e5e02a4864 /crawl-ref/source/files.cc: Don't attempt to unpack non-existing .tdl files. 15:51 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g direction-rewrite * rf050211e9bb0 /crawl-ref/source/ouch.cc: Fix .tdl files not being unlinked on character death. 15:51 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g direction-rewrite * r11eab33e6c37 /crawl-ref/source/ (11 files): Merge branch 'direction-rewrite' of ssh://crawl-ref.git.sourceforge.net/gitroot/crawl-ref/crawl-ref into direction-rewrite 15:51 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g direction-rewrite * r48b44ea901c9 /crawl-ref/source/files.cc: Revert check for .tdl files, doesn't work. 15:54 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r0f881e00c471 /crawl-ref/source/ouch.cc: Unlink .tdl (tile doll file) upon character death. 15:54 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r5e625c350da4 /crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-mon/ (angel.png unique/menkaure.png): Remove dangling transparent pixels from angel and Menkaure tiles. 16:06 -!- Vandal|PC [i=Incite@cpe-75-185-204-99.woh.res.rr.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 16:06 -!- Vandal [i=Incite@cpe-75-185-204-99.woh.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 16:10 -!- Vandal|PC [i=Incite@cpe-75-185-204-99.woh.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:10 -!- Vandal [i=Incite@cpe-75-185-204-99.woh.res.rr.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 16:14 <+by> felirx: hmm, seems msvc.h is not the right place :( 16:17 < felirx> I think it's the precompiled headers 16:17 < felirx> working on it 16:18 < felirx> you forgot to include or for ceil / floor btw 16:35 < felirx> this is such a prety spam of funny errors : http://pastebin.com/d4507f24e 16:44 < Eifel> Hey! I was wondering if anyone would welcome a power-axe-mod? 16:47 < Ashenzari> Message history doesn't break long messages into shorter sections (g5e625c3) (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=542) by jpeg 16:48 < Eifel> Also I would like a mod where all spells (except scrolls & wands) are disabled 16:50 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r65d3a42293bb /crawl-ref/source/libutil.cc: Fix "stairs" not being pluralised correctly. 16:53 < Eifel> Because it allways anoys me that a Fighter char get spellcasting by reading scrolls 16:54 < TGWi> dude, it's ten experience 16:54 < TGWi> or something 16:54 < TGWi> basically none 16:58 -!- jannesep [n=jannesep@tuomi.oulu.fi] has joined ##crawl-dev 16:59 -!- jannesep [n=jannesep@tuomi.oulu.fi] has left ##crawl-dev [] 17:01 -!- Cryp71c [i=Cryp71c@c-68-53-104-165.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 17:02 < Cryp71c> Mornin everyone 17:02 < Henzell> Cryp71c: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 17:03 <+Keskitalo> Morning Cryp71c :) 17:06 < felirx> I think I broke it :( 17:06 < felirx> unresolved external symbol class std::basic_string ... 17:07 < Timbermaw> Eifel: what's a power axe mod? 17:08 < Eifel> Timbermaw: simply removed spellcasting + boosting axes 17:09 < lorimer> "because somehow, axes weren't already good enough" 17:13 < Eifel> Because 1,5H axe got devaluated 17:13 < lorimer> possibly because it was suspciously too good 17:14 < lorimer> i think basically it's: if you want to patch your local version, go nuts 17:14 < lorimer> but neither of those suggestions is likely to make it in ;) 17:16 < Eifel> Yeah... I know, because a pure melee char would be too good 17:18 * Eifel still looking for that ironic tags 17:18 < TGWi> Cryp71c: check the message dude, you're killing me 17:20 < Timbermaw> TGWi: curiosity killed the cat 17:21 < TGWi> I doubt the message is loaded with anthrax 17:21 <+greensnark> So you're alleging Cryp71c is a cat now 17:21 < TGWi> sounds more like I'm the cat 17:22 < Timbermaw> errr yeah ^ xD 17:22 < Siber> Cats are good. 17:24 < felirx> I've a feeling getting this to compile is more trouble than it's worth 17:26 -!- by [n=rob@g225109219.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:36 -!- by [n=rob@g225109219.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined ##crawl-dev 17:36 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v by] by ChanServ 17:37 -!- Enne [n=enne@cpe-076-182-101-004.nc.res.rr.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 17:37 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v Enne] by ChanServ 17:38 -!- kloeri__ [n=kloeri@freenode/staff/exherbo.kloeri] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:38 -!- kloeri_ [i=kloeri@freenode/staff/exherbo.kloeri] has joined ##crawl-dev 17:43 < Ashenzari> More realistic movement/viewing/shooting. (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=543) by Eifeltrampel 17:46 <+Zaba_> ..but that's less realistic 17:46 -!- Scrubber [n=nospam@rrcs-69-193-83-116.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 17:46 < Eifel> No 17:48 < Eifel> Ignoring Pythagoras should be more realistic then??? 17:49 < Cryp71c> TGWi, wha? I already checked them :P 17:49 < TGWi> other channel? 17:49 < TGWi> gah 17:49 < Cryp71c> And morning Keskitalo, just got back from a brief afk 17:50 < Cryp71c> TGWi, lol no..Private msg to henzell 17:50 < Cryp71c> keep it from cluttering up either crawl channel 17:50 < TGWi> lame 17:50 < Cryp71c> :P 17:50 <+Keskitalo> Hey Napkin, congrats on the win! 17:51 < Napkin> Thanks, Eino :) 17:51 < Timbermaw> mhm Eifel's idea is good i'd say. needs to be balanced ofc 17:52 <+Zaba_> actually, no, it's quite an awful idea, it's like the game world is actually made up of letters and symbols with the proportions they have in most fonts 17:52 < lorimer> "solution looking for a problem" 17:53 <+by> making range circular would be nice, but I wouldn't want to change movement geometry 17:53 <+Zaba_> it doesn't need to be balanced, gods, no, because if it was getting balanced it'd mean somebody's putting effort into it. 17:54 <+Zaba_> by, but it already is circular.. 17:54 < Eifel> rofl 17:54 < CIA-81> Enne tileswater * rf171c0fe0293 /crawl-ref/source/ (tilebuf.cc tilebuf.h): Try to fix tiles water by using a new alpha func. 17:55 <+by> Zaba_: not really 17:55 < lorimer> if implementing this feature meant that moving diagonally took 1.4 time units and moving horizontally took 1, then i vote the feature be taken out back, shot, and buried in the yard 17:55 <+Zaba_> well, it's the closet approximation of a circle one can get without reducing the whole mess to ascii art 17:56 <+by> Zaba_: oh, I meant spell range, not LOS range 17:56 < Timbermaw> Zaba_: ya, spell targetting is quite square-ish 17:57 <+Zaba_> well, I believe it has reasons to be so 17:57 < lorimer> and we're back to "this is a solution looking for a problem" 17:57 <+by> I thought you were tryiing to nit-pick with definitions of "circular" and the actual movement "metric" 17:57 < lorimer> "it's not realistic" != "a problem" 17:57 <+by> lorimer: the problem is that you can safely shoot oklobs from outside LOS along diagonals with range >= 6 or so spells 17:58 <+by> it's also a bit questionable how spells like sticky flame or dispel undead (almost?) got to LOS edge along diagonals 17:58 < lorimer> by: then perhaps just reduce spell range to fit LoS? or is that already in trunk? i thought i saw something go by about that recently 17:58 <+Zaba_> actually, I think I either horrinly misunderstood that feature request, or it's truly horrible. 17:59 <+by> the idea to make beam distance calculations euclidean isn't new, and the main counter-argument so far has been that the beam code works differently 18:00 <+Keskitalo> Is -MR an artefact property? 18:00 <+by> a beam just travels one cell at a time, decrementing the remaining range, so it's kind of tied to the "roguelike metric" 18:00 <+Zaba_> is the justification behind rectangular range of spells is that the number of tiles a beam crosses is the same in diagonals and non-diagonals? 18:01 <+by> Zaba_: it's mostly an implementation thing, not a design choice I believe 18:02 <+Zaba_> but the LOS code measures distance differently? 18:03 <+by> yes, that uses euclidean distance 18:05 <+Zaba_> hm, indeed, having two systems of distance around isn't very nice.. 18:05 -!- eith [n=eith@86-41-102-58-dynamic.b-ras2.lmk.limerick.eircom.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 18:06 < Siber> oh boy this again 18:08 -!- ogaz [n=chatzill@c-98-242-45-110.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 18:13 <+Keskitalo> Hehe, the AC/EV redo crapped my current chars casting chances in this elven ring mail.. 18:13 <+by> I imagine it hit elven armour hard 18:18 < Timbermaw> are elven armor any different than regular armor now? 18:19 <+by> they probably don't train armour skill at all 18:19 < Timbermaw> :S that's the only difference? 18:26 < TGWi> they're lighter 18:26 < TGWi> unless that changed for some reason 18:27 < Twinge> Hmm, did it really impact leven armor that much? That seems off; I already had enough issue with how drastic the strength check hit for any -5EV armor, but elven armors aren't even at that high of a penalty 18:28 <+by> ??elven ring mail 18:28 < Henzell> I don't have a page labeled elven_ring_mail in my learndb. 18:28 <+by> ??elven armour 18:28 < Henzell> elven items[1/2]: Elven armour impedes spellcasting less than other armour, especially if you are an elf. It also always counts as "light" armour, even if metallic, so you can't use it to train your Armour skill and you don't get the heavy-armour damage reduction guarantee. Elven cloaks and boots also boost stealth. 18:28 <+by> ??elven armour[2] 18:28 < Henzell> I don't have a page labeled elven_armour[2] in my learndb. 18:29 <+by> hmm; don't elven mails have the same AC and -EV as their plain counterparts? 18:31 < Cryp71c> by, yes they do. 18:32 -!- Eifel [n=roca@dslb-084-063-022-059.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left ##crawl-dev [] 18:32 < Eronarn> i believe they have the same listing but a smaller effective EV penalty by half a point or so 18:33 < TGWi> since when do we have alligators? 18:33 < Timbermaw> yesterday? 18:34 < CIA-81> greensnark * r5dcf04fdaa2c /crawl-ref/source/spl-cast.cc: Armour/shield spellcasting penalty should not be negative (i.e. never a bonus). 18:37 < TGWi> greensnark: lame 18:37 <+greensnark> When a MiEE starts with Sandblast at Fucking Awesome, doubts begin to creep in :P 18:38 < TGWi> (that should be one of the spellcasting success levels btw) 18:39 < Napkin> hehe 18:40 <+Zaba_> 120% success 18:40 < TGWi> cast it twice 20% of hte time 18:40 <+Zaba_> or cast it randomly each fifth turn 18:40 < Napkin> Master branch on CDO updated to: 0.6.0-a1-2663-g5dcf04f (16.2) 18:41 -!- ogaz_ [n=chatzill@c-98-242-45-110.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 18:41 -!- ogaz [n=chatzill@c-98-242-45-110.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 18:41 -!- ogaz_ is now known as ogaz 18:41 < Napkin> heh - A Goblin just came _down_ the stairs in D1! 18:42 < Napkin> I thought there's peace up there! 18:42 <+greensnark> Goblins are very peacefl 18:43 <+greensnark> After you hit them once or twice 18:43 < Napkin> that one shouted at me first :-P 18:43 <+greensnark> "Hey, I wish to be at peace! Can you help me?" 18:43 <+greensnark> *THUNK* "Done" 19:03 < Ashenzari> ego/randart armour set: banded, splint, plate. tiles (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=544) by Porkchop 19:13 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * rcf2d864238ec /crawl-ref/source/ (main.cc xom.cc): Fix gates not being handled correctly in Xom's "change scenery" act. 19:20 < Napkin> Blork the orc (a +6,+2 glaive of reaching) on D:4 plus wand of paralyze? 19:20 < felirx> msvc is doing my head in 19:20 < Napkin> *sigh* 19:20 < felirx> the project seems to be somehow linking libcmt twice with different versions 19:21 -!- dpeg [n=dpeg@dis.angband.pl] has joined ##crawl-dev 19:21 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+o dpeg] by ChanServ 19:21 <@dpeg> cheers 19:21 < Henzell> dpeg: You have 6 messages. Use !messages to read them. 19:21 <@dpeg> six of them 19:21 <@dpeg> greensnark: many, many thanks! 19:21 <@dpeg> !messages 19:21 < Henzell> (1/6) greensnark said (2d 35m 33s ago): I don't think it's necessary to randomise the OOD ramps. I don't see any exploitable mechanic there; randomising will just make players exit the level at the lower end of the random range. 19:22 <@dpeg> !messages 19:22 < Henzell> (1/5) Cryp71c said (1d 14h 24m 25s ago): Not sure what's already being worked on (by Haran or others), but "Trim down monster descriptions" and "Highlighting important events" ideas. 19:22 -!- by [n=rob@g225109219.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 19:22 -!- by_ [n=rob@f052199141.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined ##crawl-dev 19:22 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v by_] by ChanServ 19:22 <+greensnark> dpeg: Happy to help :) 19:22 <@dpeg> by_, kilobyte: I'd like to take Che to email, is that okay? 19:22 -!- by_ is now known as by 19:22 <+by> sure 19:22 <@dpeg> !messages 19:22 < Henzell> (1/4) greensnark said (23h 36m 6s ago): I'm skipping Armour/Dodging/Stealth training changes for now, since there's no consensus there. 19:23 <@dpeg> greensnark: not even no concensus, that is also no plan! 19:23 <@dpeg> *there 19:23 <+greensnark> :) 19:23 <+by> I tried to write commit messages that would allow replies, but nobody seemed interested :) 19:23 <@dpeg> by: on Che? 19:23 <+by> yes 19:23 <@dpeg> although I think we should change Armour and Dodging training 19:24 <@dpeg> by: yes, I am lagging. Lots to do... this is why I want to sort Cheibriados out by email. 19:24 <+greensnark> dpeg: Also, could you review th stat changes to 1.5 hander weapons? 19:24 -!- Kil2 [n=Jampy@c-67-168-196-117.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 19:24 <@dpeg> no, I can't 19:24 <+greensnark> :D 19:24 <@dpeg> I have no clue. 19:24 <@dpeg> !messages 19:24 < Henzell> (1/3) greensnark said (23h 37m 44s ago): This means we still have the heavy/light distinction for skill training porpoises. 19:24 <@dpeg> Yes, I will come up with a proposal for Armour/dodging training. 19:25 <@dpeg> I take it that Stealth training does not rely on light/heavy? 19:25 < ogaz> We're training porpoises? 19:25 <+greensnark> dpeg: It does 19:25 <@dpeg> ouch 19:25 <+by> dpeg: don't worry, wasn't really expecting reply 19:25 <@dpeg> greensnark: okay, so will think about a way that uses AEVP or perhaps EVP only 19:25 <@dpeg> !messages 19:25 < Henzell> (1/2) by said (20h 45m 38s ago): Prayer for piety-safe changing is in now; prayer still needs some effects to discourage the same old abuse during perma-prayer. 19:25 <+greensnark> ogaz: Attack porpoises wielding shields on their, er, fins 19:25 <@dpeg> !messages 19:25 < Henzell> (1/1) bhaak said (3h 38m 37s ago): it's just not healthy that I get so worked up because of usability fails in nethack and I blame YOU partly on that! ;-} 19:26 -!- pointless_ [n=chatzill@ool-4576ec48.dyn.optonline.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 19:26 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v pointless_] by ChanServ 19:26 <@dpeg> !tell bhaak You are always welcome over here :) 19:26 < Henzell> dpeg: OK, I'll let bhaak know. 19:26 <@dpeg> okay, dinner, see you later! 19:26 <+greensnark> bhaak had a little discussion with Pat Rankin :) 19:26 <+Keskitalo> Awesome battling blink frogs and even giant toads on the new Lair:1. I'm really needing the wandering mushrooms and oklobs.. and I find myself moving around differently than usual. 19:27 <+greensnark> Lots of plants in the Shoals too :P 19:27 * greensnark eyes Keskitalo hopefully. 19:27 <+Keskitalo> Hee. Let's see if I can make it. :) 19:28 <+Keskitalo> These rat packs still aren't fun. :P 19:32 -!- firem0nkey [n=Loht@nuwl-120.dynamic.rpi.edu] has joined ##crawl-dev 19:32 < firem0nkey> what's up with ##crawl being locked? 19:33 -!- firem0nkey [n=Loht@nuwl-120.dynamic.rpi.edu] has left ##crawl-dev [] 19:33 <+Keskitalo> Well I could have answered that if I spent all my time staring at the channel and also typed lightning fast. :) 19:33 <+Keskitalo> Except that I don't know the answer, of course. 19:34 <+greensnark> Keskitalo: The freenode javascript spam attacks 19:34 < TGWi> maybe circular spell ranges are the wrong answer 19:34 <+greensnark> I don't know whether they're still ongoing, but there was some badness yesterday 19:34 <+Keskitalo> Okay. 19:34 < TGWi> has anyone thought about rectangular LOS? 19:35 <+by> TGWi: ugly 19:35 < TGWi> :P 19:35 <+greensnark> Rectangular LOS is the obvious answer if it weren't ugly :) 19:36 <+greensnark> It's not really a rectangle in Crawl geometry, after all 19:36 <+greensnark> It's a circle in Crawl geometry :) 19:36 < TGWi> that's also true 19:37 <+by> regardless, the beam code shouldn't prevent experimentation here, so it should become more independent of metric; not for 0.6, though 19:37 <+by> @? shadow 19:37 < Gretell> shadow ( ) | Speed: 10 | HD: 3 | Health: 9-24 | AC/EV: 12/10 | Damage: 5(drain strength) | Flags: undead, evil, see invisible | Res: magic(20), cold+++, poison | XP: 28. 19:37 < TGWi> also, diagonal movement should definitely not take 14 aut :| 19:38 <+by> yes 19:38 <+by> did 4.1 do that? 19:39 <+greensnark> No 19:40 <+by> I remember dpeg saying that 4.1 had done some things with the metric 19:40 < Twinge> ##crawl is still +R :P 19:40 < TGWi> I like it 19:41 < TGWi> it makes it feel like an exclusive club 19:41 <+by> there should be a lair entry vault with an island in the middle of 8 squares wide deep water 19:41 <+greensnark> Napkin: Could we experimentally make ##crawl -r again? 19:41 < TGWi> what's -r? 19:42 < TGWi> by: why 19:42 < Napkin> sure 19:42 <+greensnark> +r disallows joins by unregisterd users 19:42 < TGWi> aha 19:42 < Napkin> oh, it is 19:42 < Napkin> ah, -, yes 19:43 <+by> TGWi: oh, I'm just search for lair and had a big lake; it would have been a nice surprise to see the lair stair there 19:43 <+by> would make autotravel quite tedious though 19:43 <+greensnark> Yes, let's not go there :P 19:44 <+greensnark> I already let out a mighty wail of anguish when I get that vault with the river cutting off the stairs 19:44 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * rd5617325439c /crawl-ref/source/tilereg.cc: Fix Mantis BR 523: Tiles player mini hp/mp bar misbehaviour. 19:44 < TGWi> branches/portals should always have visible entrances 19:44 < TGWi> especially branches 19:45 < CIA-81> by * r431f7c2fa97c /crawl-ref/source/message.cc: Fix long messages not being linebroken in history. 19:47 <+by> there just needs to be a button on the island that will lower the drawbridge; I'm sure due would be able to do that 19:48 <+greensnark> :P 19:48 <+greensnark> One of the Baileys could dothat 19:53 <+by> mmhm, new lair is pretty 20:06 <@dpeg> greensnark: yes, I read their little rgrn talk 20:07 < bhaak> !read 20:07 < Henzell> bhaak: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 20:07 < bhaak> !messages 20:07 < Henzell> (1/1) dpeg said (41m 13s ago): You are always welcome over here :) 20:07 <@dpeg> TGWi: I am one of the few proponents of square FOV 20:07 < bhaak> dpeg: a developer that runs crying to the competitors? :) 20:07 <@dpeg> it may look odd but it will solve all issues at once, in a completely consistent manner 20:08 <+greensnark> dpeg: Really circular FOV, you mean :) 20:08 <+greensnark> Unlike the current looks-like-circle-to-human eyes LOS :P 20:08 <@dpeg> by: I know that Brent had a test version with square FOV but 4.1 was circular 20:09 <+greensnark> There are roguelikes that use true-circular FOV :) 20:09 <+greensnark> I remember seeing mention of one on rgrd 20:09 <+greensnark> Can't recall the name though :P 20:09 <@dpeg> well, all norms are equivalent, so it isn't too bad to use one with a square unit ball 20:09 <@dpeg> bhaak: well, at least we *would* understand you! 20:09 < Eronarn> dpeg: switch crawl to hexes! 20:10 <+greensnark> Someone already did that :P 20:10 < TGWi> what does a map like that look like in real life, I wonder? 20:10 <@dpeg> Eronarn: I like my ASCII, thankyouverymuch 20:10 <+greensnark> Eronarn: Have you seen Hexcrawl? :) 20:10 < bhaak> go 3D, it's all the rage now 20:10 < TGWi> (with actual circles looking like squares) 20:10 <@dpeg> bhaak: I have an itching boot! :) 20:10 <+greensnark> bhaak: We should go true-3d and require special glasses to play the game <3 20:12 < Eronarn> dpeg: you can do hexes with ascii! 20:12 <@dpeg> but not nicely 20:12 < bhaak> greensnark: yeah, for example, you could see multiple items stacked that pop out of the screen 20:12 < Eronarn> depends on what you mean by nicely - i have been testing it and like it 20:12 < Eronarn> doesn't show you as much info on surroundings as crawl currently does, of course 20:13 < Eronarn> TGWi: what do you mean by a map like that 'in real life'? like, a map of the world? it would look very distorted 20:14 < TGWi> eronarn: well, no, the world is curved 20:15 < Eronarn> TGWi: what you asked is rather not clear to me :) 20:16 < Eronarn> you can draw a circle on the (curved) surface of the earth, and draw it as a circle on a flat surface, in which case it will be skewed 20:16 < TGWi> anything less abstract than crawl 20:16 < Eronarn> and you can do the same thing and draw it as a square 20:16 < Eronarn> in which case it will be even more skewed 20:16 < Eronarn> (more in some areas, less in other areas, is my guesstimate) 20:16 < Eronarn> see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tissot%27s_Indicatrix 20:17 < Eronarn> i could be wrong though, it might be more distorted period. I don't do much work with projections, dpeg might be better to ask here 20:18 <+by> greensnark: think how you could visualize the tide in 3d! 20:25 < Twinge> How accurate is the spreadsheet compared to what was implemented for spellcasting AC changes? 20:26 < Twinge> Someone in ##crawl gave me stats that the spreadsheet says should be exactly the same as it was pbefore changes (Very Good), but he says it's dropping him all the way to Poor 20:26 -!- Cryp71c [i=Cryp71c@c-68-53-104-165.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:26 -!- Cryp71c [i=Cryp71c@c-68-53-104-165.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 20:26 < syllogism> twinge: the spreadsheet you've doesn't round AEVP so it's not entirely accurate 20:27 -!- Cryp71c [i=Cryp71c@c-68-53-104-165.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:27 -!- Cryp71c [i=Cryp71c@c-68-53-104-165.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 20:27 -!- Cryp71c [i=Cryp71c@c-68-53-104-165.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:27 -!- Cryp71c [i=Cryp71c@c-68-53-104-165.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 20:27 -!- Cryp71c [i=Cryp71c@c-68-53-104-165.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:27 < syllogism> also it doesn't have ASP, so if he is wearing a shield he gets additional penalties 20:27 < syllogism> or a slow weapon 20:27 -!- Cryp71c_ [i=Cryp71c@c-68-53-104-165.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 20:27 < Twinge> syllogism: So if I manually round it up, it says it should be 'Good', still a long stretch from Poor. 20:27 -!- Cryp71c [n=rburnham@c-68-53-104-165.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined ##Crawl-dev 20:27 < Twinge> Hmm 20:27 < TGWi> ??regeneration[2] 20:28 < Henzell> regeneration[2/5]: The base regeneration rate is your maximum hitpoints / 3. If this number is over 20, then divide the result by two and add ten. For example, 100 max health results in a regen rate of 26. RR accumulates every turn and for every 100 RR you gain, you regenerate 1 hp. For 1 hp per turn, 540 health is needed. For 1 hp per 2 turns, 240. 20:28 < TGWi> ??regeneration[3] 20:28 < Henzell> regeneration[3/5]: A ring adds 40 to your rr, troll leather armour 30, player mutation 20 per level, and the status effect (spell) 100. What this means is that a single ring of regen or piece of troll leather armour effectively doubles your healing rate (or better) for most characters. 20:28 < CIA-81> greensnark * r796fa0d4be2b /crawl-ref/source/ (clua.cc dat/lua/pickup.lua items.cc): Fix broken pickup.lua (78291). 20:28 < syllogism> twinge what are the stats? 20:30 < Twinge> syllogism: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/elliptic/elliptic.txt 20:30 < Twinge> He is wearing a shield, yes. 20:30 < ogaz> correct dump: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/hyperbolic/hyperbolic.txt 20:30 < Twinge> oh, er - yeah. 20:31 < syllogism> double wizardry? 20:31 < Twinge> Triple even :P 20:34 < doy> seriously, backlog is getting huge these days 20:34 < syllogism> twinge: it's the shield penalty 20:35 < syllogism> without the shield it's at very good (and no wizardry) 20:35 < Twinge> It was changed that drastically? 20:35 < syllogism> could be a bug 20:36 < syllogism> greensnark? 20:36 < TGWi> crocodiles AND alligators? 20:36 <+by> argh, monster movement is a mess 20:37 < Eronarn> doy: we should really look into some of what was discussed earlier wrt logging this channel 20:37 < Eronarn> some way to make it easier 20:37 < doy> Eronarn: yeah, maybe 20:37 <+greensnark> syllogism: Yo 20:38 < syllogism> greensnark: is shield penalty being applied after spellcasting failure stepdown 20:38 < syllogism> it basically completely destroys your success rate right now 20:38 <+greensnark> It's being applied post stepdown, yes 20:38 <+greensnark> Same place where the old armour penalty was applied 20:38 < syllogism> but it used to barely do anything 20:39 <+greensnark> There's a big multiplier to the penalties 20:39 <+greensnark> *25 20:39 <+greensnark> Also, the die roll in ASP is gone 20:39 < Twinge> green: We've got someone with the new shield formula dropping what used to be 'Very Good' down to 'Poor', using a regular shield, and they even have some shield skill. 20:39 < ogaz> It seems to be a bit on the large side; elliptic jumps from being at "Poor" with a regular shield to "excellent" without 20:40 <+greensnark> 25 * (AEVP + ASP) 20:40 <+greensnark> His ASP is 3 20:40 < syllogism> oh I see now 20:40 < Twinge> That isn't reduced by shield skill anymore? 20:40 <+greensnark> It is 20:41 < syllogism> but you can't mitigate the shield penalty, or at least it won't show due to randomization? 20:41 <+greensnark> But it's 0.5*(1+Shields) instead of 1d(shields) 20:41 <+greensnark> Yeah, that's true 20:41 < Twinge> So -15 became -75? That's huge 20:41 < syllogism> even at shields 27 you can't really cast any high level spells 20:42 <+greensnark> Maybe we should just make it Shields / (5 + Size) 20:43 < Cryp71c> !tell dpeg implementing some of Twinge's Xom ideas, notably Monster:4, Other:3-5 to start with. 20:43 < Henzell> Cryp71c: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 20:43 <+greensnark> And I personally have no problems with spellcasters being discouraged from SDA + shield :P 20:43 < syllogism> I don't either but the penalty is worse than the one you get from SDA :P 20:43 <+greensnark> It's just that the amount of discouragement seems a little extreme here 20:43 < syllogism> at least with any decent str 20:44 < Twinge> green: They already are; he's using Might to even have enough Str to be reasonable there in the first place, and some Wizardry 20:44 <+greensnark> So what say to Shields / (5+Size) 20:44 < Twinge> Shields being the Shield skill here? 20:44 <+greensnark> Yes 20:44 < Twinge> ??size 20:44 < Henzell> I don't have a page labeled size in my learndb. 20:44 < Twinge> Size is 1/2/3/4? 20:45 <+greensnark> Size would be 0 for demonspawn 20:45 <+greensnark> 2 for Ha, 3 for Og 20:45 <+greensnark> Er 20:45 <+greensnark> -2 for Og 20:45 <+greensnark> And maybe split ASP multiplier to something like, dunno 20 20:46 < Twinge> What about having 0 shield skill 20:46 <+greensnark> For Spc penalty 20:46 <+greensnark> The full formula is SP - Shields / (5+Size) 20:46 <+greensnark> Currently it's SP - (1+Shields)/(2*(5+Size)) 20:46 <+greensnark> That's the only change I've made to the formulae on the wiki, to eliminate the die roll 20:47 < Twinge> Er, there's no 2* on the wiki formula? 20:47 <+greensnark> 1dShields is (1+Shields)/2 on average 20:47 < Twinge> Oh, that's to average it right 20:47 < Twinge> Yeah 20:48 <+greensnark> In addition to this change, we reduce the Spc penalty multiplier for ASP to 20 20:48 < Twinge> That still sounds pretty high, but it's a start. Let me take a closer look 20:48 <+greensnark> That will drop elliptic's penalty from shield to 40 20:49 <+greensnark> I need dpeg to sign off on this 20:49 < Twinge> -15 to -40 with 5 Shield Skill. Hmm. 20:49 <+greensnark> The old penalty was a joke 20:49 < Twinge> True 20:50 <+greensnark> x15 multiplier may work better 20:50 <+greensnark> But either way, dpeg's call 20:50 < Twinge> -20 is probably fair, since it tiers down fast enough 20:50 <+greensnark> syllogism: What do you think? 20:50 < Twinge> At Shield Skill 10 you'd be at -20 20:51 < Twinge> But it does now require a decent investment in shield skill, which it iddn't before 20:51 <+greensnark> Oh yes 20:51 <+greensnark> I need to prevent the penalties from becoming bonuses 20:53 <+greensnark> dpeg: You around? 20:53 < TGWi> why are edged weapons not autopickedup anymore 20:53 <+greensnark> I have to go soon, and I won't get time on this till next weekend 20:54 < Twinge> Yeah, cap them certainly, Don't need Very Good -> Excellent from wearing your Shield that is secretly of Wizardry ;) 20:56 < Cryp71c> ..where is the code for opening doors at? I can't find "You open the door" in any files. 20:56 < CIA-81> greensnark * reb50c020e627 /crawl-ref/source/player.cc: Don't let shield penalty turn into a bonus. 20:57 < doy> Cryp71c: parts of that string are almost certainly %s 20:57 <@dpeg> greensnark: yes to your shields idea, just don't be too generous 20:57 < Henzell> dpeg: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 20:57 <+greensnark> Cryp71c: Try grepping for 'You open', it's in main.cc 20:57 <+greensnark> dpeg: Ok, I'll make it Shields instead of (1+Shields)/2 for mitigation 20:58 <+greensnark> Should I leave the multiplier at 25 or 20? 20:58 <@dpeg> greensnark: I cannot say :/ 20:58 <@dpeg> syllogism: are you hereß 20:58 <+greensnark> Ok, I'll drop it to 20 20:58 <+greensnark> I may be busy until next weekend, but anyone else on the team can make further adjustments if I'm not around 20:59 <+greensnark> syllogism disappeared :P 20:59 < Twinge> green: 20 sounds good, 15 would be too generous 20:59 <@dpeg> not good :) 20:59 <+greensnark> He's probably auctioning off his massive collection of large shields on crBay 20:59 <@dpeg> hehe 21:00 <@dpeg> greensnark: I need to come up with Armour/Dodging/Stealth training ideas and with something for the slow god 21:00 <+greensnark> I don't think the Arm/Dod training should hold up 0.6 :) 21:00 <+greensnark> Good to have it though 21:00 <+greensnark> The heavy/light distinction is eternal confusion :P 21:01 <@dpeg> greensnark: I always planned to redo Armour/Dodging training as last part of the AC change. 21:01 < doy> armour/dodging/stealth training will be rewritten again in 0.7, if we use that alternate skill training model that we were discussing 21:01 <@dpeg> players on ##crawl as exegesing the new formulas :) 21:01 < doy> so unless it's terribly broken now 21:01 < doy> not sure that it's especially worth it 21:01 <@dpeg> doy: not sure, my input would be to change how it triggers 21:02 -!- purge [n=IceChat7@d192-24-82-173.try.wideopenwest.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 21:02 <+by> is elven armour as broken as it seems? any plans for that? 21:02 <@dpeg> by: tell us, please. 21:03 <+by> if there's no light/heavy distinction, there seems to be no advantage of elven over plain 21:03 <+greensnark> elven has -25 less to spc penalty 21:03 < purge> hrm! Still no comments on my tree tiles! I need feedback :) 21:03 <+by> ok, that was missed before 21:03 < Cryp71c> it also should give bonuses to stealth 21:03 <+greensnark> It does give stealth bonuses, I haven't changed that part of the code 21:04 <+Enne> purge: Are they on Mantis? 21:04 < purge> yeah 21:04 <+by> good, then, forget the issue 21:04 < CIA-81> pointless_ * r92649d288031 /crawl-ref/source/effects.cc: Fedhas worshipers get fruit from food acquirement (patch by MarvinPA) 21:04 < CIA-81> pointless_ * r6c1134becfc5 /crawl-ref/source/effects.cc: Display the food acquirement option as 'Fruit' for Fedhas worshipers 21:04 <+greensnark> I'm unsure about the shield multiplier 21:04 <+greensnark> by: Can you fix it if it's too good :) 21:04 <+greensnark> I have a full week coming up :/ 21:05 < purge> Enne: I don't know if the palm tree one really fits now so you can put it in unused for maybe future branch use like desert if you agree 21:05 <@dpeg> pointless_: good stuff! 21:05 <@dpeg> Happy banana. 21:05 <+greensnark> Ooh, that's an nice touch <3 21:05 <+greensnark> Can I get pineapples? 21:06 <+Enne> purge: Are the trees in the picture with the palm trees the old trees? (For comparison?) 21:06 < purge> @whereis greensnark 21:06 < Gretell> greensnark the Archer (L13 DEHu), a worshipper of Zin, saved on Orc:3 on 2010-01-24 after 35298 turns. 21:06 <+by> greensnark: if it turns out to be broken, I'll give it a try; I haven't been following the changes however 21:06 < purge> Enne: yes 21:06 < purge> Enne: I also retouched those trees in that other mantis item "tree retouched" 21:06 < MarvinPA> yay, fruit! 21:06 <+Enne> purge: http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=520 ? 21:06 < purge> er, tree tiles "impoved" submission 21:06 < purge> yeah 21:07 < purge> the in-game shots show my new ones with the old ones 21:07 <+pointless_> MarvinPA: if you plan on contributing more patches, it's actually more convenient for us if you use 'git format-patch' to make the patch 21:07 <+Enne> purge: Yeah, the improved trees are *way* better. 21:07 <+greensnark> Hm, disadvantage of 20 multiplier is that a buckler has no impact on spellcasting 21:07 < Cryp71c> hrm, I can't get xom to act in debug...started as DSCK of Xom...is there something preventing his action in wizard 21:07 <+greensnark> It's entirely canceled by the -20 21:08 < MarvinPA> ahh ok, i was doing it through the gitk interface thingy currently 21:08 <+greensnark> Shrug, it'll serve 21:08 <+Enne> purge: I think the original one ones fell into this trap a little bit much: http://gas13.ru/v3/tutorials/sywtbapa_gradient_tool.php 21:08 < Twinge> green: If they have skill 21:08 -!- Kyrris [n=1@c-67-186-34-100.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 21:08 <+greensnark> Twinge: No, if you have no ASP, and a buckler, the buckler won't affect your spc chances at all 21:08 <+greensnark> Whereas at 25 it will add a penalty of 5 21:08 < purge> Enne: yeah, i don't use gradient anymore really. I start with a solid color and use a texture overlay and inner shadow in photoshop 21:09 < Twinge> ...Huh? Shouldn't it be (1 - 0/5)*-20? 21:09 <+greensnark> The formula is 25*AEVP+20*ASP-20-racial_bonus 21:09 <+Enne> purge: Maybe it just looked "too smooth" compared to the other Crawl tiles, if that makes any sense? 21:09 <+greensnark> Ok, shield multiplier is arbitrarily 22 21:10 <+greensnark> I shall update the wiki before I go 21:10 < purge> Enne: yeah, thats exactly how i feel about the old ones 21:10 < Twinge> Well wait, won't they then get +20 by not wearing any shield? 21:10 < purge> Enne: Now that i look at my newer ones they could be improved more, but they are definately an improvement over the old ones :) 21:10 <@dpeg> greensnark: so we should have keep looking at (1) 1.5 handers, (2) effects of shields on casting? 21:10 <+greensnark> Twinge: The whole thing is clamped to be positive 21:11 <+Enne> purge: I do like the new trees quite a bit. Thanks for all the art submissions, lately. :) 21:11 <+greensnark> dpeg: Yes, although 1.5 handers are much less important 21:11 < Twinge> green: I don't follow. 21:11 < purge> Enne: jpeg but in my burning bush tile, do i need to make 2 more versions to animate it? 21:11 < purge> put* 21:11 <+greensnark> Twinge: That's the spc penalty 21:11 <+Enne> purge: If you want? I'm not sure it's required. 21:11 <+greensnark> So if you're not wearing a buckler or shield, the value will be -20, which will be clamped at 0 21:12 <+greensnark> *not wearing buckler or body arm 21:12 <@dpeg> greensnark: hm, buckler with no Shields skill should decrease casting rates a bit, no? 21:12 <+greensnark> dpeg: Yes 21:12 <+greensnark> So I'm using a multiplier of 22 now 21:12 <+greensnark> It may actually be ok at 25 21:12 <+greensnark> I'm unsure 21:12 < purge> Enne: ok, i might do that then. How many frames should the animation have? 21:12 < purge> 3 like the flame cloud? 21:13 <+greensnark> dpeg: I shall leave it at 25 for now? 21:13 <+Enne> purge: I don't know how burning bushes work. Do they go out over time? Or just destroy the bush? 21:13 < Twinge> greensnark: Hmm. That seems kind of an odd way to do the formula then :P Hmm... 21:13 <+greensnark> They recite the ten commandments! :) 21:13 < purge> Enne: they seem to explode in a cloud of fire actually 21:14 <@dpeg> greensnark: I cannot estimate it, but I'd rather go for 25. 21:14 <+greensnark> dpeg: Cool, that's my second impression too 21:14 <@dpeg> We *will* hear players complaining loudly about something that's too hard. 21:14 <+greensnark> They will complain loudly even if it's a little harder :P 21:14 <@dpeg> It's much harder to infer from the silence that something is too weak. 21:14 <+greensnark> Yes 21:14 < Twinge> Unless there's a way to tweak the formula so that that penalty isn't ignored like that 21:14 <@dpeg> Also, a heavy nerf is like a good cleansing. 21:15 <+greensnark> :) 21:16 < CIA-81> greensnark * rf2fbd09ae40d /crawl-ref/source/player.cc: Double the effect of Shields skill on ASP. 21:16 <@dpeg> a bit like chastising in the old days :) 21:16 <+Enne> purge: Then maybe even two frames of bush animation might be fine. Just something to make it flicker back and forth? 21:16 < purge> Enne: ok, i might just do three anyways and you guys can decide :) 21:16 <+greensnark> Can we replace some of the trees in Swamp with plants and bushes? 21:17 <+greensnark> A small number 21:17 < CIA-81> by * re26087ec7b47 /crawl-ref/source/ (mon-util.cc mon-util.h): Revert "Revert "mons_is_firewood: Monsters that other monsters may cut through."" 21:17 <@dpeg> sure 21:17 < CIA-81> by * rdac4468bf59a /crawl-ref/source/mon-act.cc: Convert _may_cutdown to consult the restored mons_is_firewood. 21:17 < CIA-81> by * ra2c4c6a85085 /crawl-ref/source/mon-behv.cc: Make monsters not autotarget firewood. 21:17 < CIA-81> by * r34c66fc9c2b8 /crawl-ref/source/mon-util.cc: Update mons_is_firewood documentation to reflect new use. 21:17 < CIA-81> by * rfa621cc09771 /crawl-ref/source/mon-act.cc: Monster movemement: Don't move-into-fight plants. 21:17 < CIA-81> by * r1865e01c8322 /crawl-ref/source/mon-act.cc: Moving into and fighting plants is not a "good move". 21:17 < Kyrris> Praise by. 21:17 <@dpeg> by: "mons_is_firewood" was much cuter anyway 21:17 < Kyrris> That will make summoning so much less frustrating. 21:17 <+greensnark> And all the monsters are anxious to prepare for the cruel winter! 21:17 <+by> there was still a variable "is_firewood" left 21:18 <+greensnark> dpeg: We should do dungeon seasons sometime 21:18 <@dpeg> greensnark: pfff :) 21:18 <+greensnark> Add ice, generate more ice in winter 21:18 <@dpeg> does ADOM have this? 21:18 <+greensnark> More fruits in summer! 21:18 <+greensnark> I don't think so 21:18 <@dpeg> how about phases of the moon 21:18 <+greensnark> More uniques on the beach in summer! 21:18 < doy> monsters chopping down firewood to melt the ice 21:18 <+greensnark> The seasons should be Australian seasons 21:18 < Twinge> How is EVP figured (not AEVP)? Is that just the armor -EV mod? 21:18 <+greensnark> So summer in December 21:19 <@dpeg> Twinge: yes 21:19 <@dpeg> I am sure DF has seasons. 21:19 <+greensnark> Oh, of course 21:19 <+greensnark> I would be appalled if DF did not have seasons : 21:19 <+greensnark> :P 21:19 <+by> now, may I ask one of Napkin and Keskitalo to please update the cdo build so I can continue my SESu? 21:20 <@dpeg> There will be a time when wives don't cry about husbands lost to WoW, but they'll sob about them losing to DF instead. 21:20 <+greensnark> This time has already arrived :P 21:20 <@dpeg> greensnark: you know examples? 21:21 < purge> the first major goal of DF is to survive the first winter 21:21 <+greensnark> Didn't I mention my former colleague who used to play WoW and moved to DF? 21:21 <+greensnark> Plays up to 4 hours a day 21:21 < Cryp71c> are there specific build flags for debugging xom? 21:21 <@dpeg> greensnark: ah, and he has a family? 21:21 <+greensnark> Wife and two kids :P 21:21 < Kyrris> Autopickup no longer tries to make sure you have a bladed weapon. Is this known and intentional? 21:21 < doy> Cryp71c: should all be available in wizmode 21:21 <+greensnark> But he sleeps only 5 hours a day, so :P 21:22 <+greensnark> Kyrris: it is already fixed 21:22 < Kyrris> Check. 21:22 <@dpeg> greensnark: is he a *former* colleague because of the gaming? 21:23 <+greensnark> dpeg: No, but he has a job where he has to work only 4 hours a day :P 21:23 -!- Twinge_ [n=user@97-124-171-184.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 21:24 -!- Twinge [n=user@97-124-153-226.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:25 <@dpeg> greensnark: why didn't you go there too? 21:26 <+greensnark> I got bored of working there :P 21:26 -!- Twinge [n=user@97-124-158-16.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 21:26 <+greensnark> I'll admit it made me very productive on Crawl for a bit :P 21:27 <@dpeg> greensnark: ah, but boring work is probably not good for Crawl in the long run either 21:27 <+greensnark> Yes 21:27 <+greensnark> Well, it wasn't boring work 21:27 <+greensnark> But there was very little work 21:28 <+greensnark> And doing stuff on your own initiative rarely made much impression 21:29 < Ashenzari> What is an alligator snapping turtle? (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=545) by nubinia 21:29 < Cryp71c> doy: ah, I was using make debug 21:29 -!- Twinge- [n=user@97-124-164-43.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 21:29 < doy> Cryp71c: debug includes wizmode 21:29 < Cryp71c> doy: ..that's wierd I'm not getting the debug message from xom_is_stimulated (or else xom_is_stimulated isn't being called) 21:30 <+greensnark> Jeez, what kind of bug report is that :P 21:30 < Twinge-> green: I'm thinking 23 rather than 25. I looked at changing the formula in other ways, but that's require rethinking how the racial mod is applied completely, among other things, so would be pretty awkward. 21:30 <+greensnark> Twinge-: Man to convince is dpeg :) 21:31 <+greensnark> What I could do instead is to increase the granularity of the penalties 21:32 <+greensnark> So SP-Shields/(5+size) would become 1000*SP - 1000*Shields/(5+Size) 21:32 <+greensnark> So that skilling up shows more smoothly 21:32 <+greensnark> Instead of ugly discrete jumps 21:32 <+greensnark> dpeg: Do you agree? 21:33 < Twinge-> Then you'd need a 1+Shields 21:33 <+greensnark> Why? 21:33 < Twinge-> 0 Shield skill is a -1000 penalty with a buckler? 21:33 <+greensnark> This is just a granularity change 21:33 <+greensnark> At the end everything is divided by 1000 21:34 < Twinge-> Yes, but -- okay, so not literally what you just used as an example formula, hehe 21:34 <@dpeg> greensnark: smoothness is fine, sure 21:34 <+greensnark> Ok, will change 21:35 < Twinge-> Wouldn't that mean at 1 shield skill you'd still be looking at a -200 penalty though? 21:35 < Twinge-> Or maye I'm still not picturing this properly 21:35 <+greensnark> This is merely a granularity change 21:36 <+greensnark> If I do x/3 + x/3 with integer math with x=2, the roundoff kills the numbers 21:36 <+greensnark> But if I do 100*(x/3+x/3)/100 21:36 < Kyrris> Twinge: -200/1000 21:36 < Twinge-> Okay, I'll take your word for it without scrutinizing your psuedocode formula 21:36 < Twinge-> ;) 21:36 <+greensnark> Sorry (100*x/3+100*x/3)/100 21:37 * Twinge- nods 21:38 < Twinge-> I was just focusing too much on your example and couldn't get my mind off that :P 21:40 -!- MarvinPA [n=marvin@cpc2-aztw19-0-0-cust376.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:42 -!- Twinge_ [n=user@97-124-171-184.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:43 <+by> doy: love the new lair 21:45 <@dpeg> Is the new Vaults code already in master? 21:45 <+by> I don't think so 21:45 -!- Twinge [n=user@97-124-158-16.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:45 <@dpeg> who did that -- doy or due? 21:45 < doy> by: (: 21:45 <+by> due 21:45 < doy> dpeg: due was doing vaults 21:46 <+by> greensnark: thanks for telling about dropping grapes on the floor 21:46 <@dpeg> !tell due Do you think that the new Vaults layout should go into 0.6? (I just need to know because I prepare another 0.6 email.) 21:46 < Henzell> dpeg: OK, I'll let due know. 21:47 <+greensnark> by: :) 21:47 <+greensnark> Yes, new Lair is <3 21:49 < TGWi> I as well <3 new lair 21:49 < Napkin> update, by? 21:50 <@dpeg> Napkin: yes, please! 21:50 <+by> would be great! 21:50 < Napkin> compiling :) 21:52 -!- Kyrris [n=1@c-67-186-34-100.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [] 21:53 < Napkin> Master branch on CDO updated to: 0.6.0-a1-2677-g1865e01 (16.2) 21:53 < TGWi> crawl seasons should definitely exist, ties in perfectly with eronarn's plant obsession 21:53 <+greensnark> Oh yeah, trees would be red or yellow in autumn :P 21:53 <+greensnark> Some trees :P 21:54 < TGWi> we just need to make sure to implement months at the same time 21:54 < TGWi> so we can stress the australianity 21:54 <@dpeg> TGWi: I am not sure developers share the plant obsession. At least, I don't. 21:55 < doy> i think some more interesting plants could be a reasonable idea 21:55 -!- nrook [n=nrook@99-50-93-120.lightspeed.wlfrct.sbcglobal.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 21:56 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * rb83ba7411f11 /crawl-ref/source/tilereg.cc: Experimentally, use hp_colour to decide player doll hp bar colour. 21:56 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * rc9bc0edf78aa /crawl-ref/source/ (10 files in 3 dirs): Add Porkchop's ego/randart tiles for banded/plate/splint mail. Thanks! 21:56 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r9365853fd095 /crawl-ref/source/rltiles/ (54 files in 4 dirs): Also rename other armour tiles to match their plain/ego/randart order. 21:57 -!- eith [n=eith@86-41-102-58-dynamic.b-ras2.lmk.limerick.eircom.net] has quit [] 21:57 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * rfea4fc75c954 /crawl-ref/source/rltiles/ (64 files in 3 dirs): Also rename weapon tiles to match their normal/ego variants' order. 21:57 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * rb4a6c95b5348 /crawl-ref/source/ (3 files in 3 dirs): Add Porkchop's tile for the penetration brand. 21:57 -!- eith [n=eith@86-41-102-58-dynamic.b-ras2.lmk.limerick.eircom.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 22:00 <+kilobyte> seasons and special days. On April 1st, rats should be pink elephants. 22:00 <@dpeg> fresh from minced: BTW, I'm quite happy with the new mummy changes. Midgame feels about the same, but early game went from frustrating to just hard. 22:01 <+kilobyte> but more serious, bright green trees definitely don't fit well with Swamp. 22:01 <@dpeg> kilobyte: would be perfectly okay to have all Swamp trees be dark green (and special tiles, too, I guess). 22:02 <@dpeg> doy: my standard complaints: (1) Plants are typically stationary. The one exception in Crawl is a nice joke. More moving plants would be out of place, imho. (2) Stationary and slow monsters are generally uninteresting. And we have a lot of those already. 22:02 <+greensnark> Some brown trees too? 22:02 <+greensnark> For Swamp 22:02 <@dpeg> greensnark: why not? 22:02 < doy> dpeg: curse skulls and oklobs aren't uninteresting, for instance 22:02 <+greensnark> <3 22:03 <@dpeg> doy: I know, but these are two stationary monsters we already have. 22:03 <+kilobyte> greensnark: good idea! 22:03 < doy> dpeg: right, just saying that it's not impossible to come up with interesting stationary monsters 22:03 <+kilobyte> currently, trees are 3/4 dark green 1/4 bright green, on a hash 22:03 <@dpeg> doy: sure, can be done. But now look at the plants wiki... 22:04 <@dpeg> minced is still working on the div god, so that's good for 0.7 :) 22:04 < doy> well, yes, but look at the new monster wiki page too 22:04 < doy> most of these things should be ignored 22:04 < doy> (: 22:04 < doy> doesn't mean we have to ignore all of them though 22:04 <@dpeg> doy: I did not say that new plants are out of the question. I just try to trim down the general enthusiasm about plants a bit. 22:05 <+kilobyte> yeah, wiki has a number of advantages but one big issue: no way to close an idea without throwing out all record about it 22:05 < doy> kilobyte: ? 22:05 < syllogism> back 22:05 <@dpeg> kilobyte: there should be a Tomb pile art some point 22:05 <+greensnark> syllogism: Sold your shields yet? :P 22:05 < syllogism> is shield penalty still randomized 22:05 <@dpeg> syllogism: too late! Various crucial changes are now already in. 22:05 <+greensnark> No 22:05 < syllogism> I don't use shields anyway, can't spare the xp until it's too late :P 22:06 <+greensnark> Future characters wearing crystal plate and shield and attempting to cast spells will be visited by a Killer Klown with a bladder on a stick 22:06 < syllogism> unless I get some nice randart 22:06 <+kilobyte> doy: 95% of ideas are "meh", just like FRs. Yet there's no way to mark some part of a big wiki page as chosen against without it haunting the page forever. 22:06 <@dpeg> greensnark: that's a good change, of course 22:06 <+greensnark> Anything involving Klowns is automatically good 22:07 <@dpeg> yes, Klowns > Seasons 22:07 <+greensnark> Nooooooo 22:07 <@dpeg> apart from "Seasons in the Abyss", anyone knows that? 22:07 < TGWi> nooooooo 22:07 <+greensnark> Maybe the Klowns are the Seasons' FATHER! 22:07 < doy> kilobyte: well, wiki pages keep a history 22:07 < doy> so deleting things is reasonably safe 22:07 <@dpeg> "And the klowns sadly begot each other to spawn the seasons." 22:07 < TGWi> how long is a year in aut? 22:08 <@dpeg> no seasons, folks 22:08 <@dpeg> if you want seasons, make seasonal portal vaults 22:08 * greensnark sends dpeg seasons' greetings 22:08 < doy> TGWi: if we knew that, it wouldn't be 'a'ut d: 22:08 -!- MarvinPA [n=marvin@cpc2-aztw19-0-0-cust376.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 22:08 * dpeg throws flowers to the trashcan, unopened. 22:10 -!- Twinge [n=user@97-124-163-136.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 22:11 <@dpeg> I fail to see how seasons are different from genders. 22:12 < TGWi> well, don't let people choose the seasons 22:12 < TGWi> just make orange/red and brown trees 22:12 < TGWi> a seasonal portal vault sounds kind of cool though 22:12 <+greensnark> dpeg: It just adds atmosphere 22:12 <+greensnark> Which is a nice thing to have, although it would be more or less orthogonal to gameplay 22:12 <@dpeg> greensnark: but gender also adds atmosphere! 22:13 <+by> what, four rooms, with artichokes in one? 22:13 <+kilobyte> trees can already be recolored in vaults using the normal syntax, the hash is applied only if they don't get recolored otherwise 22:13 <+greensnark> Hm, I don't know that gender is similar to this 22:13 -!- Enne_ [n=enne@cpe-076-182-101-004.nc.res.rr.com] has joined ##crawl-dev 22:13 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v Enne_] by ChanServ 22:13 <+kilobyte> a "four seasons" vault? 22:13 <+greensnark> I don't feel too strongly about seasons 22:13 <@dpeg> greensnark: hey, I am a atmosphere nut, I just don't think that seasons will be worth the effort. 22:13 <+greensnark> But I don't think it would a) harm anything and b) it would definitely improve the "feel" of the dungeon 22:14 -!- Enne [n=enne@cpe-076-182-101-004.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:14 -!- Enne_ is now known as Enne 22:14 -!- Kyrris [n=1@c-67-186-34-100.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 22:14 <+greensnark> Since "feel" is subjective... :) 22:14 <+by> merfolk and mermaid should reproduce when the player's invisible 22:14 <+greensnark> dpeg: Yeah, I'm not suggesting someone put time into it :) 22:14 <+kilobyte> one corner with flowers and shit, one with ice and stuff, ... 22:14 < TGWi> kilobyte: no 22:14 <+by> that kind of atmosphere? 22:14 < TGWi> make it actually go through all four seasons with a lot of voodoo 22:14 <+greensnark> Crawl, Porn Edition 22:14 < Kyrris> Voodoo and rage. 22:14 <+greensnark> Mermaid centerfold 22:15 <+kilobyte> m on m porn :) 22:15 < TGWi> generate rain and spawn plants, then start throwing sunlight at everything 22:15 <@dpeg> tail dildos 22:15 <+greensnark> Dear god 22:15 <+by> all the snapping turtles in Lair are scaring me 22:15 <@dpeg> by: rightly so! 22:15 <+greensnark> Each time I make a mildly offcolour joke these days, dpeg surpasses me :P 22:15 <@dpeg> useful atmosphere: speech; colours in (portal) vaults; blood etc. 22:16 < syllogism> was that diminished xp commit reverted 22:16 <@dpeg> greensnark: panzerkown 22:16 <@dpeg> greensnark: panzerklown even 22:16 <@dpeg> syllogism: yes 22:16 <+greensnark> Actually, no 22:16 < syllogism> yeah I thought it wasn'at 22:16 <+greensnark> I did not remove the XP downscaling 22:16 <+greensnark> Someone complaining? :P 22:16 < syllogism> I am now :P 22:16 < TGWi> I wonder if due could do that 22:17 * greensnark fires a walrus at syllogism. 22:17 <@dpeg> ah, sorry 22:17 <@dpeg> I confused diminished xp cap with the xp pool changes, sorry 22:17 <@dpeg> the cap should stay, of course 22:17 < syllogism> pff 22:18 < syllogism> it makes little sense to have both 22:18 < syllogism> unless you somehow hate people playing post game fo rfun 22:18 <@dpeg> syllogism: both? 22:18 < syllogism> finite spawns 22:18 < syllogism> and the cap 22:18 <@dpeg> hm, sounds reasonable 22:19 <@dpeg> greensnark: what do you think? 22:19 < TGWi> what xp cap? 22:19 <+greensnark> It's a terrible idea if it involves syllogism playing another Nemelex ziggurat :P 22:19 < syllogism> you know it's coming :P 22:19 <+greensnark> Yeah, sounds fine to me :) 22:20 < Kyrris> The only potential problem with uncapping the pool is making manuals more useful, right? 22:20 < syllogism> we aren't talking about pool 22:20 <@dpeg> greensnark: could you revert? 22:20 < TGWi> kyrris: cap manual exp usage 22:20 <@dpeg> Also, is the shield changes in? 22:21 <+greensnark> The shield change is in, but I'm working on adding better precision in the penalties 22:21 <@dpeg> thank you 22:21 < syllogism> including AEVP? 22:21 <+greensnark> Yes 22:21 <+kilobyte> dpeg: do you mean, you want the 100 XP penalty removed? 22:22 <+kilobyte> it lost most of its purpose, but it doesn't hurt to have it either way 22:22 -!- kloeri_ [i=kloeri@freenode/staff/exherbo.kloeri] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:22 <@dpeg> kilobyte: good you're here! Isn't the scumming already abolished by the finite spawning? 22:22 < TGWi> 30k turns, right? 22:22 <@dpeg> 3k - 9k 22:22 <+kilobyte> yeah, and most other races can do Pan just as well as mummies (and they don't suck) 22:22 < doy> wait, the xp downscaling wasn't removed? 22:22 < TGWi> well in total 22:22 -!- kloeri_ [i=kloeri@freenode/staff/exherbo.kloeri] has joined ##crawl-dev 22:22 < doy> i was assuming it was 22:24 <+kilobyte> commit 42b59c174d547ff34b1040de3440b1e5807aa654 22:24 <+kilobyte> x_val >>= you.kills->num_kills(monster) / 100; 22:24 <@dpeg> kilobyte: at your discretion 22:24 <@dpeg> okay, I am trying to come up with something useful for Che, Armour/doding/stealth 22:24 <@dpeg> later 22:25 -!- Twinge- [n=user@97-124-164-43.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:25 <+kilobyte> uhm, so someone make the decision: should the cap be left or not? 22:25 <@dpeg> oh, one more thing: greensnark, did rax reply on combined CAO + CDO statistics? 22:25 <+greensnark> dpeg: No, but I didn't ask her directly 22:25 <@dpeg> Developer opinions? 22:25 <+greensnark> I don't think the XP downscaling after 100 kills does any harm 22:26 <@dpeg> I say remove the cap for clearness (hygiene). 22:26 <+by> I'd say revert, if the issue has been dealt with differently 22:26 <+greensnark> Ok 22:26 < TGWi> I don't like that at all, and I get mistaken for a dev sometimes 22:26 <+greensnark> kilobyte: Can you do the honours? 22:27 <@dpeg> TGWi: huh, how's that? 22:27 <@dpeg> You don't own the + of pride :) 22:27 < CIA-81> kilobyte * rb44f68244107 /crawl-ref/source/mon-util.cc: Revert the XP cap for hundreds of kills. 22:27 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v doy] by ChanServ 22:27 <@dpeg> thanks 22:32 <+kilobyte> I did some thinking about the hellfire-vs-AC/EV issue, and came to a conclusion that it shouldn't be left aside 22:33 <+kilobyte> since in most EV splats I analyzed, it wasn't about the player making a mistake, merely having bad luck 22:33 < syllogism> aren't most splats like that 22:33 <+kilobyte> a fiend/pit fiend/XXX decides to hellfire you twice before you kill it? You die. 22:34 < syllogism> well not quite, but I mean you make a mistake and then get unlucky 22:34 <+kilobyte> and AC makes it merely a slight annoyance 22:34 < syllogism> talking about end game mistakes here 22:35 < syllogism> I think it's fine extended end game is harder for casters 22:35 <+kilobyte> no, I'm talking about perfect play when you have all possible resistances, EV up the wazoo, protective spells up and so on (all of these don't matter), and you lose your char without any fault on your side 22:35 -!- Twinge_ [n=user@97-124-163-136.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 22:36 <+kilobyte> having _mistakes_ be deadly is ok 22:36 < syllogism> the first mistake is usually not taking the hellfirer seriously 22:36 <+kilobyte> it's also strange why AC would help with being cooked... in fact, you should take MORE damage when in metal armour 22:38 <+kilobyte> well, if you have full hp, spells up, and so on, how more seriously can you take it? 22:39 < syllogism> And these games you analyzed were like that? 22:39 <+kilobyte> some were 22:39 <+kilobyte> of course, if you continue to fight several pit fiends while on low hp, you deserve to die 22:41 <+doy> i don't know how reasonable this "you should take more damage from hellfire in metal armour" concept is 22:41 <+doy> considering it doesn't apply anywhere else in the game 22:41 <+doy> normal fireball damage is reduced by ac too 22:41 <+doy> it's just also reduced by rf 22:41 < TGWi> it's more that the status quo makes *negative* sense 22:42 <+doy> well 22:42 <+doy> i'm just trying to keep hellfire from getting all kinds of inconsistent special cases 22:42 <+kilobyte> if you walk in hard areas without rF, you do deserve to splat 22:42 <+kilobyte> so getting your ass nuked by a fireball is your fault 22:42 < TGWi> doesn't hellfire ignore rf? 22:43 <+doy> TGWi: yes 22:43 <+kilobyte> it ignores rF, ignores EV, ignores everything but unexplainably AC 22:43 <+doy> as far as i'm aware, the only way that hellfire is different from normal fire is that it ignores rf 22:43 <+kilobyte> and EV 22:43 <+doy> kilobyte: fireballs ignore ev too 22:44 <+doy> as does smiting 22:44 < TGWi> ofc smiting also ignores rf 22:44 <+doy> and those are the two things that actually correspond to how hellfire is used 22:44 <+kilobyte> fireballs are laughable compared to other sources of fire damage 22:44 <+doy> if there was a beam of hellfire, pretty sure it wouldn't ignore ev 22:44 < syllogism> orb of fire fireballs do like 3d44 22:44 <+kilobyte> doy: it does 22:45 <+doy> kilobyte: there is no beam of hellfire 22:45 <+doy> that's my point 22:45 <+doy> "hellfire ignoring ev" isn't a special case of hellfire specifically, is my point here 22:45 <+kilobyte> doy: ZAP_HELLFIRE, BEAM_HELLFIRE. 22:45 <+doy> neither is "hellfire ignoring ac" 22:45 < syllogism> but it's not really a beam 22:45 < syllogism> since it explodes 22:45 <+doy> right 22:46 <+kilobyte> hellfire has a lot of special code, and two versions 22:46 <+doy> ZAP_FIREBALL exists as a beam too 22:46 <+kilobyte> it can be either a low-damage smite-targetted explosion (hellions) or high-damage beam 22:47 <+doy> it's a beam in the same way that fireball is a beam 22:47 <+kilobyte> the beam has strange properties like ignoring EV or having no range penalties 22:47 <+doy> "ignoing ev" is not a strange property 22:47 < syllogism> how are those strange 22:47 <+doy> unless it's also a strange property for fireballs 22:47 < TGWi> I'm pretty fireball shouldn't check AC 22:47 < TGWi> clouds don't, yeah? 22:47 < syllogism> they do 22:48 < TGWi> fireballs or clouds? 22:48 < syllogism> which clouds 22:48 < TGWi> freezing, flaming et al 22:48 <+doy> TGWi: everything checks ac except for poison, torment, smiting, and possibly pain? 22:48 -!- Eifel [n=roca@dslb-084-063-022-059.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 22:48 < TGWi> that doesn't make sense to me 22:48 <+kilobyte> try bolt::range_used_on_hit(), fireball doesn't go past multiple targets 22:50 <+doy> okay, that's another valid difference 22:50 <+doy> but unrelated to the things we've been discussing 22:50 <+kilobyte> yeah 22:50 < nrook> should spider form irritate cheibriados? 22:50 <+doy> nrook: probably 22:50 <+kilobyte> my point is: you can do something against fireball (have rF), you can't do anything against hellfire 22:50 < TGWi> noooo 22:51 <+doy> kilobyte: well, this was part of the explicit design about hellfire 22:51 < TGWi> no more than sp should 22:51 < TGWi> it's a nice perk to tm, that's all 22:51 <+doy> TGWi: you don't magically transform yourself into a spriggan 22:51 <+doy> kilobyte: not saying that that design isn't problematic 22:51 <+doy> kilobyte: but it's not like this is an oversight or something 22:51 <+kilobyte> doy: then it shouldn't randomly kill _some_ chars but not others 22:52 < syllogism> a lot of things are like that 22:52 -!- timecircuits [n=Adium@pool-71-246-66-203.bltmmd.east.verizon.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 22:53 < syllogism> plus it's an extended end game spell, basically 22:53 <+kilobyte> due had an idea to mostly remove hellfire, I have something different: let's make it ignore AC and decrease the damage slightly -- but not by a lot, merely to ensure that you have time to react 22:53 -!- Twinge [n=user@97-124-163-136.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [No route to host] 22:53 -!- Twinge [n=user@97-124-171-226.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 22:53 <+doy> kilobyte: my point is just that we should try to address this in ways that doesn't make hellfire less consistent with how the rest of the game works 22:53 < syllogism> I don't think that's a bad idea, but ignoring ac also hurts spell casters 22:53 -!- Twinge_ [n=user@97-124-163-136.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [No route to host] 22:54 < Kyrris> Wouldn't making hellfire like the demonic version of smiting be -more- consistent? 22:54 < Kyrris> In the sense of ignoring AC. 22:54 <+kilobyte> Kyrris: that's exactly my point 22:54 <+by> !lg * kaux=~hellfire place=pan -tv 22:54 < Henzell> 23. KiloByte, XL27 SpDK, T:199328 requested for FooTV. 22:54 < syllogism> I see :P 22:54 <+kilobyte> Kyrris: it would be consistent with smiting 22:55 <+kilobyte> very big, very bad smiting from hell 22:55 <+doy> Kyrris: that's one viewpoint, sure 22:57 <+by> !log * kaux=~hellfire place=pan -tv 22:57 < Henzell> No games for * (kaux=~hellfire place=pan -tv). 22:57 <+by> !log * kaux=~hellfire place=pan 22:57 < Henzell> 23. KiloByte, XL27 SpDK, T:199328: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/KiloByte/morgue-KiloByte-20100111-235702.txt 22:58 -!- syllogism [i=syllogis@85-131-29-172.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] 23:00 <+by> !lg * kaux=~hellfire place=pan -2 -tv 23:00 < Henzell> 22. DrPraetor, XL27 MfTm, T:133336 requested for FooTV. 23:02 <@dpeg> busy writing a Che mail... I think that changing Hellfire to (a) a different name and (b) that is not ignored by AC might be okay. (with (c), reduced damage, I guess) 23:03 <+by> !lg * kaux=~hellfire place=pan -3 -tv 23:03 < Henzell> 21. Barefoot, XL27 HaIE, T:94137 requested for FooTV. 23:03 <+doy> eh, keeping the name is probably fine 23:03 <+doy> i'm not entirely sure that we want to go in the direction of more things ignoring ac though 23:04 <+doy> i mean, that just seems to be the way out for "we can't figure out how to balance lategame characters, so better just make things that aren't able to be prepared for" 23:05 <+by> kilobyte: the last two are really stupid deaths, do you have some other good examples? 23:05 <@dpeg> is there something that ignores AC but not EV? 23:05 <+doy> smiting and poison are fine because they are early game threats 23:05 < TGWi> dpeg, no 23:05 <+doy> and torment is okay too 23:05 <+doy> but mainly because it's a special thing 23:05 <+by> dpeg: rock worms? 23:06 <+doy> if we start making all sorts of things do that, then it becomes less interesting 23:06 <@dpeg> by: good point. But they're not on par with hellfire :) 23:06 <+kilobyte> AC effectively multiplies your hp by a large amount, in a guaranteed way 23:06 < CIA-81> Enne * r5b3dcb418cf5 /crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-dngn/wall/ (tree1.png tree2.png): [520] Add purge's newer tree tiles. 23:06 <+by> it's not like EV-based characters have no AC 23:06 <+doy> "in a guaranteed way" and "by a large amount" are not true together 23:07 <+by> also, light armour means you can go stealthy, hence choose your fights (even in Pan) 23:07 <+kilobyte> by: an elf sorcerer doing it twice in subsequent turns, against a char with DMsl (ignored) and playing in a paranoid way 23:08 <+by> why give him two turns? 23:08 <+kilobyte> by: or, someone running from Dispater while still having 2/3 hp and meeting a fiend he tried to run around 23:08 <@dpeg> Personally, I think that Hellfire is a strong but unimaginative answer to "how on earth do we make life hard in the endgame?". 23:09 <+doy> instead of toning it down and making it ignore ac, we could treat it as a normal fireball, except reduce rf by 1d3 or so 23:09 <@dpeg> So I do think that kilobyte has a point. 23:09 <+doy> i think someone proposed that the last time this came up 23:09 <+doy> dpeg: yes, that was my point about the "make it ignore ac" thing 23:09 <+kilobyte> by: stealth? In the end-game? Draconians have crappy awareness, but big undead/demons are nearly untouched by it. 23:09 <+by> I disagree in so far as the danger is unfair to EV-based characters 23:09 <@dpeg> We might not solve it right now, but there should at least be a wiki page after today's discussion, so we don't have to reinvent all the stuff again. 23:10 < Kyrris> I like doy's idea. 23:10 < Kyrris> Make hellfire behave like Cerebov's sword instead of like smiting. 23:10 <+by> kilobyte: sure stealth works in the end-game 23:11 <+kilobyte> by: how many 1s have you stabbed? 23:11 < ogaz> it might help to make hellfire's damage range smaller 23:11 <+by> !log char=hawr 23:11 < Henzell> 1. rob, XL27 HaWr, T:157272: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/rob/morgue-rob-20080902-205427.txt 23:12 <+by> at least a large part of those were stabs 23:12 <+doy> stabbing 1s is only hard because you can't use eh, really 23:12 <+doy> so you only get one chance 23:13 <+by> I guess confusion would also work 23:13 <+doy> @??ice fiend 23:13 < Gretell> Ice Fiend (1) | Speed: 10 | HD: 18 | Health: 54-144 | AC/EV: 15/6 | Damage: 25(cold), 25(cold) | Flags: demonic, evil, see invisible, fly | Res: magic(288), cold+++, poison | Vul: fire | XP: 2609 | Sp: b.cold, torment symbol, demon. 23:13 <+kilobyte> large? I went through 83 levels of Pan in a game once as a short blade spriggan and got _one_ stab on a 1. 23:13 <+doy> @??pit fiend 23:13 < Gretell> Pit Fiend (1) | Speed: 8 | HD: 19 | Health: 76-171 | AC/EV: 17/5 | Damage: 28, 21, 21 | Flags: demonic, see invisible, fly | Res: magic(304), hellfire, cold, elec++, poison | XP: 1874. 23:13 <+doy> ~300 mr is pretty tough to overcome for pretty much any enchantment 23:14 <+doy> confusion is only really somewhat reliable up to ~150 or so 23:14 < ogaz> @??cerebov 23:14 < Gretell> Cerebov (&) | Speed: 10 | HD: 21 | Health: 650 | AC/EV: 30/8 | Damage: 60 | Flags: demonic, see invisible | Res: magic(168), hellfire+++, poison | XP: 15000 | Sp: fire storm, iron shot, haste, greater demon. 23:14 < ogaz> has anyone ever confusion-stabbed cerebov? 23:14 <+by> should be straightforward with ?vuln 23:14 <+by> kilobyte: as far as I remember that game, most of the kills were by stabbing 23:16 <+by> !lm char=hawr rune=dark -tv 23:16 < Henzell> 1. rob, XL27 HaWr, T:127511 (milestone) requested for FooTV. 23:17 <+by> wait, that was with Zin? 23:17 <@dpeg> by: style points! 23:18 <+by> first one wasn't a stab at least 23:18 <+by> !lm char=hawr rune=fiery -tv 23:18 < Henzell> 1. rob, XL27 HaWr, T:127987 (milestone) requested for FooTV. 23:19 < ogaz> elliptic is getting lua errors after grabbing the orb 23:19 < CIA-81> greensnark * rfcbd835ac9a0 /crawl-ref/source/ (fight.cc libutil.h player.cc player.h): Calculate EV and spellcasting penalty with a scale of 2, rounding the final EV number up and the final spellcasting penalty down. 23:19 <@dpeg> by: god_likes_butchery is used in some pickup lua? 23:21 <+kilobyte> in both ttyrecs, there was one stab total, and thanks to teleport not sneaking up 23:22 <+by> but the fiends didn't wake up too fast :) 23:22 <+kilobyte> an one-round delay in two cases 23:23 <+by> !lm char=hawr rune=obsidian -tv 23:23 < Henzell> 1. rob, XL27 HaWr, T:154934 (milestone) requested for FooTV. 23:23 <+kilobyte> sure, one round means you can turn back, but that's nothing vital 23:23 <@dpeg> !tell due minced (who's still working on the div god) had the fleshworks. He liked it, but it was pretty easy for him (Mummy). He suggested that perhaps Cigutovi's monsters could have a mutagenic attack? 23:23 < Henzell> dpeg: OK, I'll let due know. 23:24 <+by> dpeg: don't know 23:24 <@dpeg> by: minced is getting tons of error messages when walking over items to be picked up (even gold) and they all include "god_likes_butchery". 23:24 <@dpeg> greensnark: thank you! 23:25 <+by> greensnark did some auto-pickup fixes 23:25 <+by> there, better example 23:25 <+kilobyte> oh, this one is indeed better 23:27 < cbus> @whereis pingpong 23:27 < Gretell> pingpong the Skirmisher (L5 DSBe), a worshipper of Trog, saved on D:4 on 2010-01-24 after 4631 turns. 23:28 <+by> need sleep now, good night 23:28 -!- by [n=rob@f052199141.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["leaving"] 23:29 < Mu_> it's kind of difficult to beef cigotuvi's monster up since he's just a renamed tentacled monstrosity 23:29 < TGWi> can give him spells 23:29 < TGWi> poly other, if that weren't completely lame 23:30 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * rb9b0a304316f /crawl-ref/source/rltiles/player/hand1/ (holy_scourge1.png holy_scourge2.png): Replace the default player doll holy scourge tile with another one. 23:30 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r2f373b1b70ff /crawl-ref/source/rltiles/ (116 files in 6 dirs): Move player doll non-weapon hand1/non-shield hand2 tiles into subfolders. 23:30 <+kilobyte> it would be silly to have it cast spells 23:30 <@dpeg> not casting 23:30 < TGWi> have abilities* 23:30 <+greensnark> dpeg: I guess that function was removed with the sacrifice changes 23:31 < Mu_> yeah he's also only speed 9 23:31 <@dpeg> greensnark: yes, but some lua still depends on it? 23:31 <@dpeg> Mu_: currently, a caster just snipes them 23:31 < Napkin> important update? should I? 23:31 <+greensnark> dpeg: The pickup Lua used that to check whether the player needed a butchering knife 23:31 <@dpeg> they could produce large fogs of mutagenic fog when dying 23:31 <@dpeg> greensnark: ah, I see 23:31 < Mu_> dpeg do you think it's worth turning him into a true unique with his own stats? 23:32 <@dpeg> Mu_: Who? Cigutovi? 23:32 < Kyrris> Cigotuvi is the supertransmuter, right? What if you made the whole lab the enemy? 23:32 < Mu_> cigotuvi's monster 23:32 < cbus> would be cool if you made a unique animated weapon 23:32 < cbus> :D 23:32 < CIA-81> greensnark * rfbcabc8f602a /crawl-ref/source/dat/lua/pickup.lua: Remove god_likes_butchery check from butcher-knife pickup logic. 23:32 <@dpeg> Mu_: not sure 23:32 < cbus> "Tukimas dagger" 23:32 < Kyrris> Let the walls and furniture also attack, until the central brain monster is killed. 23:32 <@dpeg> greensnark: double thanks 23:32 < Kyrris> Like the Zerg creep. 23:32 < cbus> or "Tukimas triple sword" 23:33 < Mu_> yeah he's tmut/necro 23:33 < cbus> "Tukimas triple sword that got stuck in enchanted mode after a spell misscast" 23:33 < cbus> :D 23:33 <@dpeg> Well, it would be incredibly cool if there was a portal vault where you had to hack and slash your way through the flesh. Typical themes: jungle, or flesh. Not sure where to use it. 23:33 <@dpeg> Gotta ask due. 23:33 <@dpeg> cbus: <3 23:33 < cbus> <3 23:33 < Eronarn> dpeg: hey, i proposed hackable flesh walls a long time ago, you didn't want them then :P 23:33 -!- Cryp71c [n=rburnham@c-68-53-104-165.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:34 < Kyrris> Really, it sounds perfect for a necro/mut laboratory. 23:34 <+greensnark> Eronarn: Your ideas need time to mature, like a fine wine! 23:34 < Kyrris> Living walls and piles of animate corpses used as building materials. 23:34 <@dpeg> Eronarn: I guess you proposed this with a billion of other things, though :) 23:34 <+kilobyte> or perhaps a "gellatinous cube" vault, where you have to cut through jelly 23:34 <@dpeg> I loved the levels in Gradius/Parodius, where you have to shoot yourself a way. 23:34 < Mu_> slime walls! 23:35 <@dpeg> kilobyte: yes 23:35 <+greensnark> A gingerbread prison where you have to eat your way out, while attacked by red ants 23:35 <+greensnark> You have to strategically decide which walls to eat, because you can't eat when full! 23:35 <@dpeg> greensnark: do I need to get out the dildos again? :) 23:35 <+greensnark> And the ants are after you :P 23:35 <@dpeg> greensnark: hey, awesome. Tell that to due! 23:35 <@dpeg> I'll do. 23:35 <+greensnark> :P 23:36 < Eronarn> greensnark: that's true. I am the least mature dev, after all. 23:36 < Mu_> lair of the candymancer 23:36 <@dpeg> !tell due Cute idea for an early portal vault by greensnark: A gingerbread prison where you have to eat your way out, while attacked by red ants. You have to strategically decide which walls to eat, because you can't eat when full! 23:36 < Henzell> dpeg: OK, I'll let due know. 23:36 <+kilobyte> speaking of piles of animated corpses, Twisted Resurrection has an UI problem where you have to collect corpses by hand before casting. What about turning the corpses into animated body parts (toadstool weak to disallow using it for a meat shield) which crawl together to form abominations? 23:36 < nrook> The home of Nergalle? :) 23:37 <+greensnark> dpeg: That wasn't serious :P 23:37 < Kyrris> kilobyte: That's grotesque. 23:37 < Eronarn> one thing that could work well for destroyable walls - walls have HP based on the # of walls around them, so destroying a wall weakens all surrounding walls 23:37 <@dpeg> greensnark: does not matter, it is still good 23:37 < Kyrris> And twisted. 23:37 <@dpeg> early portal vaults == good 23:37 <+kilobyte> Kyrris: that's the point! :) 23:37 < Eronarn> would make it easier to take down pillars, much harder to dig through 23:37 <@dpeg> kilobyte: I like it. But not for 0.6 anymore! 23:38 <@dpeg> kilobyte: you have that idea in mind? Else we'd have to jot it down somewhere. 23:38 <+kilobyte> I can put in the wiki. 23:38 <@dpeg> thanks 23:38 < Eronarn> dpeg: clearly we need a Minetown portal vault :) 23:38 <+greensnark> kilobyte: I love it 23:39 <+greensnark> That is such an awesome idea 23:39 <+greensnark> Writhing masses of flesh crawling together! 23:39 <+kilobyte> :) 23:39 < Kyrris> Make it hit every corpse in LoS? 23:39 < Kyrris> Would be a beautiful thing, after clearing a beehive. 23:39 < Mu_> can we mark enemy abominations as undead instead of demonic too? :p 23:40 <+greensnark> Should let some monster cast twisted resurrection 23:40 <@dpeg> Eronarn: I've got a loose boot! 23:40 <@dpeg> Nethack references alert. 23:40 <+kilobyte> Kyrris: the effect would be same as current stacking of corpses, sans the manual work part 23:40 <@dpeg> kilobyte: yes, that's very good 23:40 <@dpeg> kilobyte: would help interface and flavour 23:40 <+greensnark> I've never bothered with Twisted Res. because I had to arranged corpses manually 23:40 < Kyrris> kilobyte: Yes. I realize this, and like it. It's just more fun to imagine seeing. 23:40 <+greensnark> This would fix that completely <3 23:41 < Eronarn> kilobyte: one thing that i favor is to actually have it be based on chunks instead of corpses 23:41 <+kilobyte> Mu_: we should add Hentai Love Tentacle monsters so demons can have their abominations too :p 23:41 <@dpeg> also, it would keep our tiles artists busy for years to come 23:41 < Eronarn> and to autobutcher corpses in LOS 23:41 < Mu_> o deer 23:41 <+kilobyte> of course. corpses = pre-merged chunks 23:41 <@dpeg> doesn't corpse weight matter? 23:41 <+kilobyte> it does 23:41 < Eronarn> dpeg: yes, but corpse weight is a joke 23:41 < Eronarn> the values are insane 23:42 < Eronarn> chunk weight is based on corpse weight but the randomness obscures how stupid corpse weight is as a measure 23:42 < Kyrris> Someone was just fixing that, Eronarn. 23:42 < Kyrris> Twinge? 23:43 < Eronarn> Kyrris: did he start? hmm, hope not - wanted to talk to him about it first 23:43 <+kilobyte> well, big monsters give many chunks, small monsters give 1. People hardly ever compare the big numbers. 23:43 < Eronarn> - there are a LOT of monster properties that could use reevaluation 23:43 < Eronarn> better to do it all at once than go through the list each time for each property 23:45 -!- pointless__ [n=chatzill@ool-4576ec48.dyn.optonline.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 23:46 <@dpeg> pointless__: Hi Charles! 23:46 < pointless__> Hi 23:46 -!- pointless_ [n=chatzill@ool-4576ec48.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:46 <+kilobyte> !tell due And corpses of Henzell and Gretell in the gingerbread oven. 23:46 < Henzell> kilobyte: OK, I'll let due know. 23:46 -!- henryci [n=henry@c-71-232-165-41.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 23:46 -!- pointless__ is now known as pointless_ 23:47 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v pointless_] by ChanServ 23:47 <@dpeg> henryci: Hi Henry! 23:47 < henryci> howdy. 23:47 <@dpeg> kilobyte: pointing out the obvious? :) 23:47 < henryci> Have a sec to answer a quick style q? 23:47 <@dpeg> henryci: fire away. 23:47 < henryci> currently the overmap description string is generated by a 250 line function in overmap.cc 23:48 <@dpeg> oh, code -- I am illiterate 23:48 < henryci> ohh. 23:48 < henryci> n/m. :P 23:48 -!- Cryp71c_ is now known as Cryp71c 23:48 <@dpeg> henryci: but the other good souls here are not 23:48 <@dpeg> so keep firing 23:48 -!- Cryp71c [i=Cryp71c@c-68-53-104-165.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:49 <+kilobyte> greensnark: how would you colour the trees in Swamp? 23:49 < henryci> basically the overmap is 250 lines long, and it's composoed of several very disparate pieces of code. One part iterating through the level comments, another for altars, etc. So I put my stuff in it's own function, and call it. 23:49 <+greensnark> Hey, I'm not code illiterate, and you specified "good souls", where does that leave me? 23:49 < henryci> which I think is better, but it strays from the way it's currently done 23:49 < henryci> is this ok, or no? 23:49 <@dpeg> greensnark: I only said: good soul ==> literate, nothing more 23:49 <+greensnark> kilobyte: dark greens and browns sound good to me 23:49 <@dpeg> henryci: refactoring is good, sure 23:50 <+greensnark> henryci: By all means break up those monolithic functions 23:50 < henryci> So I can go ahead and refactor the existing code as well? 23:50 <@dpeg> yes, please 23:50 <+greensnark> overmap.cc has probably not been cleaned up since 4.0 23:50 < henryci> that makes me so happy. 23:50 < henryci> *gleeful* 23:51 <@dpeg> greensnark: Ctrl-O has been completely redone for 0.2. Do you remember the old output? 23:51 <+greensnark> kilobyte: Should I make the tree changes? 23:51 <@dpeg> greensnark: yes, please 23:51 <+greensnark> dpeg: I remember, but the code itself was not refactored that I recall 23:51 <+greensnark> New stuff was just shoehorned into the old structure :) 23:52 <@dpeg> greensnark: I recall much scepticism about both the new % and Ctrl-O screens. "Too much information" etc :) 23:52 < CIA-81> kilobyte * rc7db6edd3515 /crawl-ref/source/show.cc: Make trees in the Swamp 25% brown, 75% dark green. 23:52 <@dpeg> kilobyte has won 23:53 <+kilobyte> sorry, I was AFW 23:53 -!- haranp [n=haranp@di8-37132.dialin.huji.ac.il] has joined ##crawl-dev 23:53 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v haranp] by ChanServ 23:53 <+kilobyte> I'll mark it as "tiles needed" 23:53 <+haranp> git problems again 23:53 < Henzell> haranp: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 23:53 <+haranp> !messages 23:53 < Henzell> (1/2) by said (1d 15h 23m 41s ago): New direction() in tiles isn't slow for me at all -- are you just experiencing general tiles slowness? 23:53 <+haranp> !messages 23:53 < Henzell> (1/1) by said (1d 15h 23m 37s ago): Also hurray for direction() cleanup. 23:54 <+doy> haranp: ask away 23:54 <@dpeg> Hi Haran 23:54 <+haranp> it's rejecting the push 23:54 <+haranp> hi dpeg! 23:54 <+haranp> I have almost all of your changes in 23:54 <@dpeg> haranp: you rock! 23:54 < TGWi> @??ancient lich 23:54 < Gretell> ancient lich (L) | Speed: 12 | HD: 27 | Health: 54-162 | AC/EV: 20/10 | Damage: 20(drain) | Flags: undead, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: magic(504), fire, cold++, elec++, poison | XP: 10944 | Sp: b.cold, paralyse, greater demon, animate dead, iron shot, teleport self / b.draining, animate dead, summon undead, throw frost, crystal spear / b.fire, confuse, haste, b.draining, grea 23:54 <+doy> haranp: what happens when you do a pull? 23:54 * dpeg builds a statue of Haran. 23:54 <+haranp> on master? 23:54 <+doy> haranp: what are you trying to push? 23:54 <+haranp> it says 'already up-to-date' 23:55 <+haranp> direction-rewrite 23:55 <+haranp> I've done git merge master there 23:55 <+haranp> after doing git pull --rebase on master 23:55 <+doy> so are you trying to merge this into master? 23:55 <+haranp> also doing git merge origin/master says already up-to-date 23:55 <+haranp> no 23:55 <+haranp> I'm trying to push into the same branch 23:55 <+doy> so what happens when you do 'git pull' on that branch? 23:56 -!- Enne [n=enne@cpe-076-182-101-004.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["cold"] 23:56 <+haranp> You asked me to pull without telling me which branch you 23:56 <+haranp> want to merge with, and 'branch.direction-rewrite.merge' in 23:56 <+haranp> your configuration file does not tell me either. 23:56 <+doy> aha 23:57 <+greensnark> git config direction-rewrite.branch.remote origin && git config direction-rewrite.branch.merge direction-rewrite 23:57 <+doy> git config branch.direction-rewrite.merge refs/heads/direction-rewrite 23:57 <+haranp> who do I believe? :) 23:58 <+doy> or what greensnark said 23:58 <+doy> listen to greensnark 23:58 <+doy> (: 23:58 <+kilobyte> s/origin/sf/ if you name your remotes 23:58 <+greensnark> Well, both will work, but doy's merge setting is more specific and will not fail in weird cases :) 23:58 <+greensnark> Or is refs/heads/X automatically assumed now? 23:58 -!- Mu_ [i=Mu@cpc14-live9-0-0-cust109.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place."] 23:58 <+doy> in any case, do a pull again after that 23:58 <+haranp> I tried greensnark's 23:59 <+doy> greensnark: no idea, i was just looking at my .git/config 23:59 <+haranp> and git pull gives the same error message 23:59 <+haranp> hm 23:59 <+haranp> maybe is should be branch.direction-rewrite instead of direction-rewrite.branch ? 23:59 <+greensnark> Oh, I got the branch. wrong 23:59 <+greensnark> Yeah 23:59 <+greensnark> doy's is right :) 23:59 <+doy> (: --- Day changed Mon Jan 25 2010 00:00 <@dpeg> doy = acclaimed git guru :) 00:00 <+haranp> git pull works now 00:00 <+haranp> so I can git push? 00:00 <+greensnark> Yes! 00:00 < CIA-81> haranp direction-rewrite * r553c0cd8d1dc /crawl-ref/source/ (15 files): Many more changes to direction(). 00:00 < CIA-81> haranp direction-rewrite * rd9662cfaa691 /crawl-ref/source/effects.cc: Really add the better ally-attack message. 00:00 <+doy> haranp: how did you create that local branch, by the way? 00:00 <+greensnark> Where are the existing tree colours assigned :P 00:00 < CIA-81> haranp direction-rewrite * rcac99abb0f76 /crawl-ref/source/ (327 files in 23 dirs): Merge branch 'master' into direction-rewrite 00:00 < CIA-81> haranp direction-rewrite * rdd7057404754 /crawl-ref/source/files.cc: Merge branch 'direction-rewrite' of ssh://crawl-ref.git.sourceforge.net/gitroot/crawl-ref/crawl-ref into direction-rewrite 00:00 <+haranp> git checkout -b direction-rewrite 00:01 <+kilobyte> I have a habit of always specifying the branch to pull from (git pull sf direction-rewrite), it's more typing but safer if you have 369860948603 checkouts on 45689 machines 00:01 <+doy> haranp: in the future, do 'git checkout -b direction-rewrite origin/direction-rewrite' 00:01 <+doy> and it'll set all that up for you 00:01 <+haranp> will add to my cheat sheet 00:01 <+haranp> thanks 00:01 <+haranp> dpeg: take a look at the latest push 00:01 <+kilobyte> doy: in newest git it looks like you can 'git checkout direction-rewrite' and it will do that for you 00:01 <+haranp> there are still a few things missing... 00:01 <+doy> kilobyte: ah, cool 00:01 <+greensnark> kilobyte: That's awesome 00:02 <+haranp> for example prompts for clouds are a bit silly 00:02 <+kilobyte> (or complain if multiple remotes have that branch, of course) 00:02 <+greensnark> I always have trouble explaining that to people new to git 00:02 <+haranp> you can now control the F line properly 00:02 <+haranp> so changes to that should be easy 00:02 <@dpeg> haranp: will do in a moment 00:02 <+kilobyte> greensnark: trees in general: 25% light green, 75% dark green. Trees in Swamp: 25% brown, 75% dark green. 00:02 <+haranp> oh, and check out Apportation :) 00:02 <+greensnark> kilobyte: Sounds good 00:03 <+kilobyte> greensnark: it uses a hash, show.cc:_tree_colour() 00:04 <+greensnark> Ahh, interesting 00:05 <+kilobyte> Shoals can probably keep standard trees, or perhaps even use more bright ones. 00:05 <+doy> palm trees! 00:05 <+greensnark> Shoals doesn't use trees currently, just plants 00:06 <+greensnark> For some reason I typed GREEN : BREEN and couldn't make out why the compiler was complaining 00:06 <+due> hiya 00:06 < Henzell> due: You have 4 messages. Use !messages to read them. 00:07 <+greensnark> Morning due 00:07 <+due> I want to keep palm trees for th epotential dessert branch 00:07 <+due> If this is okay 00:07 <@dpeg> due: it is 00:07 <+due> dpeg: The new vaults code won't be ready for 0.6, I don't think 00:07 <+due> I mean, it *works* 00:07 <+greensnark> I'm not entirely sure about the green/brown thing :/ 00:07 <+due> But I still have to write all the subvaults and deal with the monster generation and stuff. 00:08 * greensnark tries green/cyan :P 00:08 <+greensnark> Eek, that's dreadful :P 00:08 <+due> I am also still dizzy, don't mind if I'm slightly insane. 00:08 * greensnark hands due a tequila shot. 00:08 <+greensnark> That should help with the dizziness. 00:09 <+due> hooray 00:09 <+due> I'm actually going to the doctor shortly. 00:09 <+kilobyte> due: we mind, being merely slightly insane means you're not qualified for Crawl development 00:09 <+greensnark> Oh, sick :/ 00:09 <@dpeg> greensnark: what about only darkgreenß 00:09 <+due> kilobyte: bugger 00:09 <+greensnark> dpeg: That looks a little boring :) 00:09 <@dpeg> darkgreen / grey? 00:09 <+due> HAAHAH 00:10 <+due> What are we talking about now? 00:10 <@dpeg> colour of trees in Swamp 00:10 <+greensnark> Tree colors for Swamp 00:10 <+due> Ah 00:10 <+due> Whats wrong with what we've got at the minute? 00:10 <+greensnark> darkgreen/darkgrey may work, but plain lightgrey does not 00:10 <+greensnark> Yeah, at this point I'm inclined to leave it as is :) 00:11 <+greensnark> green /lightgreen is a bit too cheerful for Swamp 00:11 <+greensnark> But it looks beter than the other stuf I tried 00:11 <+due> Lightgreen is too cheerful 00:11 <+due> But 00:11 <+due> Speaking from experienc 00:11 <+due> Other colours are horrible. 00:11 <+greensnark> Yes 00:11 <+due> I tried brown/yellow in the Wucad Mu wizlab and blech. 00:11 <+greensnark> Unless I change my terminal's notion of brown :P 00:12 <+due> Please don't, because mine is still ugly.. 00:12 <+due> What does green and darkgrey look like? 00:12 <+greensnark> Yeah, I think trees look fine 00:12 < Kyrris> Probably all swampy and decaying. 00:12 < Kyrris> due. 00:12 <+greensnark> Green and darkgrey look weird, but less weird than the other stuff I tried 00:12 <+haranp> okay, night 00:12 <+greensnark> But green and lightgreen work better anyway 00:12 <+due> I'm inclinded to stick with green and lightngreen then. 00:13 <+due> Simply because it's a brand new feature typee 00:13 <+haranp> dpeg, if you have more suggestions, just let me know :) 00:13 <+haranp> and someone needs to work out the interface for tiles 00:13 <+due> And perhaps changing the colours of it in random branches might confuse new people. 00:13 -!- haranp [n=haranp@di8-37132.dialin.huji.ac.il] has quit ["leaving"] 00:13 <+greensnark> Does tiles have a different fire interface? 00:13 <+greensnark> I thought it was the same prompts and everything 00:13 <+greensnark> Just with added mouseness 00:13 <@dpeg> greensnark: tiles *should* have a different interface: they can use the mouse 00:14 <+greensnark> Yes, but the basic interface is unchanged 00:14 <+greensnark> i.e. if you're an ASCII player, you can still use all your old shortcuts, etc. 00:14 <+due> dpeg: giving cigotuvi's monster a mutagenic attack is a brilliant idea, but would require defining him as an actual monste.r 00:14 <@dpeg> yes 00:14 <@dpeg> due: yeah 00:15 <+greensnark> due: Do it, no worries :) 00:15 <+due> which I think is probably okay. 00:15 <+due> Unless greensnark is finished with the monster->Lua rewrite ;) 00:15 <+greensnark> :/ 00:15 <+greensnark> Don't remind me of that bit-rotting pile of code :P 00:16 <+greensnark> It needs at least 3-4 days of focussed effort 00:16 <+due> :) 00:16 <+greensnark> And focussed effort involving mon-gear.cc 00:16 <+due> It's fine. I was teasing! <3 00:16 <+greensnark> Also known as the Black Pit, Moria. 00:17 <+due> What was wrong with mon-gear? 00:17 <+due> I mean, I know it was bad 00:17 <+greensnark> Giant switch blocks assigning items 00:18 <+due> Yeah. 00:18 <+greensnark> I'd have to write a parser to translate that :P 00:18 <+due> giant switch blockss of doom. 00:18 <+greensnark> And there are lots of tedious little special cases to trip up an automated converter 00:18 <+greensnark> So I'd need to write test scripts to compare before and after equipment :P 00:18 <+greensnark> "Later!" :P 00:18 <+due> Hehehehe. 00:18 <+due> Or you could just get someone weird and obsessed like me to do it by hand? 00:19 < Kyrris> I love the forest temple! It's beautiful! 00:19 <+greensnark> I'd have to do a fair few by hand to nail down the APIs to use 00:19 <+greensnark> I still haven't even scoped out the land in mon-gear :) 00:20 -!- Twinge_ [n=user@97-124-171-7.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 00:20 <@dpeg> greensnark: who wrote this mass? And made sure it worked? 00:20 -!- Kyrris [n=1@c-67-186-34-100.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:21 <+greensnark> It's like a coral reef :P 00:21 <@dpeg> *mess 00:21 <+greensnark> Gradually built up :) 00:21 < TGWi> ??octopus king 00:21 < Henzell> octopus king[1/1]: +10,+4 trident of the Octopus King {venom, rElec rPois MR} 00:21 <+due> mon-gear is just... disgusting. 00:22 <+due> But it's probably one of the sanest and most efficient ways of doing it in C++, no? 00:22 <+due> So wait, are trees brown in Swamp, now? 00:22 <+greensnark> No 00:22 <@dpeg> 1/4 of them 00:23 <+greensnark> Oh, someone made the change? 00:23 < TGWi> @??tentacle 00:23 < Gretell> tentacle (w) | Speed: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 12 | Health: 36-60 | AC/EV: 5/7 | Damage: 29 | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: magic(immune), asphyx | XP: 0. 00:23 <+due> Yeah. 00:23 * due glares at kilobyte. 00:23 <@dpeg> greensnark: yes, Adam did 00:23 <+greensnark> Oh 00:23 <+greensnark> Yeah, I suggested it, but I hadn't tried it 00:23 <+due> Hm. 00:23 <+due> I'll have a look and see what it's like. 00:23 <@dpeg> kilobyte's code looks even blacker than than the usual black magic to me :) 00:23 <+due> But I don't think we should be so quick to start recolouring new features for Branches... 00:24 <+greensnark> It's a neat little hash to distribute the different colours randomly, using just the position to decide the colour 00:24 -!- Twinge [n=user@97-124-171-226.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:24 -!- Twinge [n=user@97-124-170-190.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 00:24 <+due> I suppose Brown would be kay, though. 00:25 <+greensnark> I thought brown was fine, but it's worse than lightgreen :/ 00:25 <+due> Is it? :/ 00:25 <+due> Will do comparative screenshots, perhaps. 00:25 <+greensnark> It works better in real life :P 00:26 <+greensnark> Trees with brown trunks and green leaves vs trees with brown trunks and brown leaves! 00:26 <+due> We need a greenbrown colour. 00:26 <+due> Make it so! 00:26 <@dpeg> greensnark: yes, I noted the bit about using position, like that a lot. But the h^ etc.... I won't comprehend :) 00:26 <+greensnark> bit twiddling :P 00:27 <+due> I will do screenshots. 00:27 <+greensnark> dpeg: Did you see the change to the Lernaean hydra :P 00:27 <+due> Once the full compile is done. 00:27 <+greensnark> It is hilarious :P 00:27 <+due> I KNOW 00:27 <+greensnark> I can't wait for someone to try hiding behind a tree again :D 00:27 <+due> dpeg: someone stood behind trees and the Lenaean hydra just chilled on the other side while they channelled to death. 00:27 <+due> It was disgusting :( 00:28 <@dpeg> greensnark: <3 00:28 <+due> Also, dpeg, what do you think about actually creating an unrand Entarex and making Maud's behaviour change if you have it? 00:28 <@dpeg> not sure :) 00:28 -!- Twinge_ [n=user@97-124-171-7.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:28 <@dpeg> if you come up with a cool randart... 00:28 < ogaz> !lm * uniq=the lernaean hydra 00:28 < Henzell> No milestones for * (uniq=the lernaean hydra). 00:28 <+due> :D 00:29 < ogaz> !lm * uniq=lernaean hydra 00:29 < Henzell> No milestones for * (uniq=lernaean hydra). 00:29 <+due> ogaz: uniq=~lern 00:29 <@dpeg> "An ancient sword, looking for Maud." 00:29 <+due> dpeg: Yesssss, exactly. 00:29 < ogaz> !lm * uniq=~lern 00:29 <@dpeg> Attacks anyone who is not Maud :) 00:29 <+due> dpeg: I was thinking more that it was a person who was magiically transformed into a sword. 00:29 <+greensnark> dpeg: No! 00:29 <+due> Oooh, it could be a dancing weapon. 00:29 <+greensnark> It recites love poems to its wielder, assuming they are Maud 00:29 <+due> greensnark: <3 00:29 <+due> Custom noisy sword, ++. 00:30 <@dpeg> but then we lose jpeg as a coder, she'd spend the rest of her time writing Entarex love poems 00:30 <+due> Why is this an issue/ 00:30 <+greensnark> It also explains why Maud is so keen to get Entarex back :P 00:30 <+due> Okay, I will do this. 00:30 <@dpeg> now??? 00:30 <+kilobyte> well, who's guilty of the Singing Sword? 00:30 <+due> Unrand with custom speech. 00:30 <+due> No! 00:30 <@dpeg> I mean, right now? 00:31 <+due> No, not right now. 00:31 <@dpeg> kilobyte: hey, jpeg and I added a ton of speech for the singing sword! 00:31 <+due> Did you see I committed the item lib changes! 00:31 <+kilobyte> greensnark: to keep the dirty secret hidden? 00:31 <+due> Metatables! 00:31 < Henzell> 1. [2010-01-24] moq the Destroyer (L16 MuWz) killed the 27-headed Lernaean hydra on turn 75326. (Swamp:5) 00:31 <@dpeg> due: yes! 00:31 <+due> Oh, dpeg. 00:31 * greensnark is off, back later.;. 00:31 <+due> dpeg, harpies. :/ 00:31 < ogaz> !lm * uniq=~lern -tv 00:31 < Henzell> 1. moq, XL16 MuWz, T:75326 (milestone) requested for FooTV. 00:31 <+due> greensnark: Ciao! 00:31 <@dpeg> due: not working? 00:31 <+kilobyte> dpeg: the speech and idea rocks, the sword sucks bigtime 00:31 <@dpeg> kilobyte: do you want to remove it or improve itß 00:31 <@dpeg> kilobyte: I agree. 00:32 <+due> dpeg: Well, they're slightly grindy. On my SpBe, I decided to leave my food outside of the branch so that it wouldn't get stolen, because losing my food was such a massive, massive issue. 00:32 < ogaz> why was moq using a staff of energy on a mummy :/ 00:32 <+due> Which means that you have to leave the branch whenever you want to eat. 00:32 <@dpeg> due: hm, what to do? 00:32 <@dpeg> due: which is a food problem in itself?! 00:32 <+due> dpeg: Well, SpBe is aways a food problem, but usually I can manage that. 00:32 <+due> I just have to take into consideration that a monster steals my food. 00:33 <+due> I know there's been a lot of work on the food theft mechanism, but what about just giving them a hungering attack, like hungry ghosts? I'm unsure. 00:33 <@dpeg> due: perhaps harpies are more interesting for characters with chunks? 00:33 <+doy> !lg * killer=~lern 00:33 <+due> Oh, it's interesting. 00:33 < Henzell> No games for * (killer=~lern). 00:33 <@dpeg> kilobyte: if you have a cool idea to help the singing sword, say it! 00:33 <+due> doy: None yet :( 00:33 <+due> The Singing Sword should randomly animate itself and kill monsters. 00:34 <+doy> @??lernaean hydra 00:34 < Gretell> the Lernaean hydra (D) | Speed: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 30 | Health: 150 | AC/EV: 0/5 | Damage: 18 per head | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: magic(120), poison | Chunks: poisonous | XP: 7599. 00:34 < ogaz> at the very least, it needs a buff; a +7 unbranded long sword is pretty bad 00:34 <+due> Agree. 00:34 <@dpeg> would be nice if whatever is it the sword gets, it'd fit with the singing 00:34 <+due> dpeg: So yeah, I just don't know; the harpies themselves are already really interesting, I just found the food theft infuriating annoying rather than fun annoying, but easily dealt with 00:34 < nrook> I've used the singing sword through midgame repeatedly, not everything needs to be really strong 00:35 <@dpeg> nrook: but unbranded is not so hot 00:35 <@dpeg> if you wield the singing sword, 't' should not "shout" but "sing" :) 00:35 <+due> :D 00:35 <@dpeg> 'tt' 00:36 <+kilobyte> most brands would be unfitting for it 00:36 <@dpeg> and make the sword perform better 00:36 <@dpeg> kilobyte: yes 00:36 <+kilobyte> perhaps just increase the enchantment to +46934769386? 00:36 <+due> "singing brand" 00:36 <+due> Does extra damage against silent monsters 00:36 <@dpeg> hm, what about singing does animate it? 00:36 < nrook> the singing sword could be a scimitar 00:36 <+kilobyte> what if you cast Silence? 00:36 <+due> kilobyte: You are prevented from it. 00:36 <@dpeg> it dies? 00:36 < ogaz> the singing sword scowls horribly at you 00:36 <+due> nrook: That is an idea. 00:37 <+due> Actually, brown is okay for the Swamp's trees. 00:38 <+due> dpeg: But yeah, otherwise, I love Shoals. 00:38 <+due> dpeg: But losing rations on an early Spriggan will most likely make people do the same thing as me (leave food behind at the door). 00:38 <@dpeg> due: yes, Shoals and Slime are the most round branches right now, imo 00:39 <+due> Swamp isn't bad, actually. 00:39 <+due> and Lair is really visually interesting now. 00:39 <+due> Especially now that the water attack bonus is gone, Swamp is less grindy. 00:39 <+due> Bah 00:40 <+due> Oh 00:41 <+due> dpeg: Do you want damaging Slime walls in Slime? We can do this quickly and easily for 0.6. 00:41 <+due> Also, are we going to branch 0.6 soon? 00:41 <@dpeg> so yes, all of Lair is cooler now 00:41 <@dpeg> due: hm, I would like that, yes 00:41 <@dpeg> due: do you know if we increased death ooze generation in Slime? 00:41 <@dpeg> they are a tad too rare 00:41 <+due> I haven't seen any changes to it recently, but that can get turned up. 00:41 <+due> What sort of damage do we want from the walls? 00:41 <+doy> i thought we did 00:41 <+doy> at some point 00:41 <+due> Proximity damage only, or acid-flavour damage? 00:42 <+doy> but might have just been a fr or something 00:42 <+due> doy: Not since I started writing the play-testing posts. 00:42 <@dpeg> due: no, it would've been older 00:42 <@dpeg> but I cannot remember 00:42 <@dpeg> well, thematically, slime wall damage should be acidic, but I don't want rAcid to prevent it -- what to do? 00:42 <+due> Master branch on CDO updated to: 0.6.0-a1-2689-gc7db6ed (16.2)! 00:42 <+doy> dpeg: why not? 00:43 <+due> rCorr should prevent it, otherwise it'll be infuriating. 00:43 <@dpeg> doy: the slime walls should do damage in order to prevent the "dig tunnel" scum against the royal jelly! 00:43 <@dpeg> it is a gameplay nerf, hidden as a flavour bit :) 00:43 <+due> Well, sure 00:43 <+due> But unresistable acid damage is bad. 00:44 <+due> Especially when you already have to dig tunnels to get to the different bubbles. 00:44 <+doy> dpeg: the damage should stack for each adjacent acid wall tile 00:44 <@dpeg> okay, each adjacent wall of slime does 1d4 acidic damage, halved if rCorrß 00:44 <+doy> something like that would be fine 00:44 <+due> I think that's good. 00:44 <@dpeg> well, the player would dig something like this: 00:44 <@dpeg> xxxxxxxxxxxxxx... 00:44 <@dpeg> .............@... 00:44 <@dpeg> xxxxxxxxxxxxxx... 00:45 <@dpeg> to minimise wall damage 00:45 <@dpeg> but still, better than nothing 00:45 <@dpeg> also, can the RJ spawn jellies behind the @? 00:45 <+doy> really, royal jelly spawns shouldn't be required to be so close to it, if there's no room for them 00:46 <+doy> being able to limit the spawns by having the royal jelly in an enclosed area like that is a decent part of the issue 00:46 <@dpeg> a completely different solution would be that the RJ spawns can spawn right inside wall, jelly and all 00:47 <@dpeg> yes 00:47 <@dpeg> see ^ 00:47 < henryci> Is there an easy way to generate altars using wiz mode? 00:48 <+due> henryci: &_ 00:48 -!- eith_ [n=eith@86-41-101-70-dynamic.b-ras2.lmk.limerick.eircom.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 00:48 <@dpeg> We should branch really soon. But before that, we should make a list of what's to be done for 0.6. 00:49 < henryci> how about creating an inaccessible altar? 00:49 <+due> henryci: Best bet woul dbe to force-place using &L the inaccessible altar vault. 00:50 <@dpeg> henryci: you can also add PLACE: D:1 to some altar vaults 00:50 <@dpeg> due: what do you thikn about the aggressive RJ spawns? 00:51 < henryci> where does &L gets its map names from? 00:53 <@dpeg> ah, it may not work 00:53 <+due> dpeg: They can kill anyone very quickly. 00:53 <@dpeg> does it? 00:53 <+due> Yes 00:53 <+due> henryci: the name: string on the vault in question 00:53 <+doy> !lg * place=slime:6 killer!=the royal jelly 00:53 < Henzell> 116. minced the Warrior (L18 SETm), worshipper of Makhleb, splashed by acid on Slime:6 on 2010-01-16, with 182128 points after 50316 turns and 4:28:27. 00:53 <@dpeg> due: well, but we all kill the RJ honestly in the open, noß 00:53 <+due> dpeg: I've never tried killing RJ in the open. :) 00:53 <@dpeg> henryci: part of the string is enough, although the prompt should really mention this 00:53 <@dpeg> boo! :) 00:53 -!- eith [n=eith@86-41-102-58-dynamic.b-ras2.lmk.limerick.eircom.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:54 <+doy> !lg * place=slime:6 killer!=the royal jelly s=killer 00:54 < Henzell> 116 games for * (place=slime:6 killer!=the royal jelly): 38x an acid blob, 35x a royal jelly, 16x , 15x an azure jelly, 8x a death ooze, 2x a great orb of eyes, 1x an orc warrior, 1x a very large slime creature 00:54 <+doy> !lg * place=slime:6 killer!~royal s=killer 00:54 < Henzell> 81 games for * (place=slime:6 killer!~royal): 38x an acid blob, 16x , 15x an azure jelly, 8x a death ooze, 2x a great orb of eyes, 1x a very large slime creature, 1x an orc warrior 00:54 <+kilobyte> dpeg: we got too many new features with badly unstable code to branch right now IMHO, I'd evict new features to side branches for now 00:54 < henryci> Is there an altar vault defined in vaults.des? 00:55 <@dpeg> no 00:55 <+kilobyte> dpeg: since branching right now means either 0.6 or trunk will degreade 00:55 <+due> dat/des/variable/altar.des 00:55 <+due> vaults.des is purely for the vaults branch 00:55 <@dpeg> kilobyte: I think I agree. This is why I want some discussion about what goes into 0.6 before branching. 00:55 <+due> kilobyte: What's wrong with just moving 0.6 to a branch? 00:55 <+due> And not merging features into it? 00:55 < henryci> I see. 00:55 < henryci> awesome thanks. 00:55 <+due> NAME: general_overflow_altar 00:55 <+due> That's the inaccessible one 00:55 <+kilobyte> due: we'd have to cherry-pick 90% commits 00:56 <+due> kilobyte: So? 00:56 <+due> kilobyte: It'll at least enforce the feature freeze. 00:57 <@dpeg> we can also get feature freeze by discipline! 00:57 <@dpeg> henryci: does it work? 00:57 < henryci> don't have /des/ 00:59 <@dpeg> henryci: are you working with a recent trunk? 01:00 < henryci> I thought so. Let me verify. 01:00 <@dpeg> henryci: if so, you should have the des files, only in a different place than before 01:01 <+doy> i agree with all new features going on branches now, and keeping master for 0.6 things only 01:01 < henryci> last checkin I have is from 1/18 01:02 < henryci> so I asume this is the latest branch. 01:02 < henryci> err 01:02 < henryci> so this is .6 01:02 < henryci> I'm on branch master. 01:03 <@dpeg> henryci: what are your contents of dat/ ? Many des files or a des/ folder? 01:03 < henryci> many des files. 01:03 <@dpeg> that's old :) 01:03 <@dpeg> doesn't matter, the altar vaults you want are in altar.des 01:03 <@dpeg> simply take an unaccessible vault and add PLACE: D:1 01:04 < henryci> git pull brought me up to date 01:04 < henryci> by 'old' 01:04 < henryci> you mean it's like '5 days old'. 01:04 <@dpeg> alternatively, search for "altar" in entry.des and add WEIGHT: 100000 to a vault with an inaccessible altar (there are a few, the one with fire/water in the corner will be easiest) 01:04 <@dpeg> I added the RJ spawn idea to the Slime wiki. 01:05 <@dpeg> And I made a Singing Sword wiki. 01:05 <@dpeg> I don't think either of these should go into 0.6. Simply because it will attract more cognitive load that should be focused on 0.6. 01:05 <+doy> henryci: that's pretty old around here 01:05 <+doy> (: 01:05 <@dpeg> henryci: anc-ient! 01:05 <@dpeg> but that's not a problem for your Ctrl-O changes 01:07 <+doy> what do you think about swapping ^O and &? 01:07 < henryci> ok, now I'v got what I need. 01:07 <+due> I'm back 01:07 < henryci> thanks guys. 01:07 <+doy> so that we have all of our informational pages on %^& 01:08 <+due> dpeg: If we just do proximity damage, I think that's a nerf as it is 01:08 <@dpeg> doy: good idea 01:08 <@dpeg> due: what does proximity damage mean herE? 01:08 <@dpeg> henryci: we thank you! 01:09 <+due> dpeg: Being close to the walls. 01:15 < Timbermaw> guys, i'm getting red messages on tiles: "ch_force_autopickup failed". should i report that on the tracker? 01:15 <+due> No 01:15 <+due> It's fixed :) 01:15 < Timbermaw> hehe alright 01:15 <+due> To fix it localy 01:15 <+due> go into dat/lua/ and edit pickup.lua 01:16 <+due> Oh, no, you can't. 01:16 <+due> Hm. 01:16 < Timbermaw> ?? 01:16 < Henzell> [1/2911]: 01:16 <+due> Bah, will have to update the CDO binaries. 01:16 < Timbermaw> ops lol 01:17 < Timbermaw> no worries i'll wait for the fix 01:19 -!- eith_ [n=eith@86-41-101-70-dynamic.b-ras2.lmk.limerick.eircom.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:19 -!- Eifel [n=roca@dslb-084-063-022-059.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left ##crawl-dev [] 01:19 -!- eith [n=eith@86-41-101-70-dynamic.b-ras2.lmk.limerick.eircom.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 01:21 <@dpeg> due: yes, it is a nerf. But as I said above, it will attract comments and perhaps a discussion about how this is not the proper nerf, hence the cognitive load. 01:23 <+due> Hm. 01:25 <@dpeg> So, let's add to wikis whatever we have to say and do it for 0.7. 01:25 <@dpeg> Where is Ashenzari, btw? 01:25 <+due> Okay! 01:26 <+due> I'd love the Vaults changes to go in. 01:26 <+due> But currently, the monster load isn't high enough, and I'm not sure how to balance it properly. 01:28 <@dpeg> see it positive: that means we have content for 0.7 right away :) 01:28 <+due> We already have the holy monsters overhaul 01:28 <@dpeg> yes, there is a bit 01:28 <@dpeg> holy monsters, vaults, div god 01:30 <+due> zin overhaul 01:30 <+due> What do you think of the new swamp, btw? 01:31 <@dpeg> haven't seen it 01:31 <+sorear> ds 01:31 <@dpeg> right! 01:32 <+due> :o 01:32 <@dpeg> if we wanted, we could make a mini release right after 0.6 :) 01:32 < nrook> you could call it... 0.6.1 01:32 <+due> well 01:33 <+due> holy monsters couldn't go in that 01:33 <@dpeg> !tell by Is your godconducts refactory in any way related to the idea of tracking more conducts? 01:33 < Henzell> dpeg: OK, I'll let by know. 01:33 <+due> 0.6.1 should be for fixups and cleanups. 01:33 <@dpeg> nrook: no, of course not 01:33 <+due> dpeg: No, but we discussed that earlier, or at least ,sorear and I did 01:33 < nrook> or you could just call it 0.7, and merely have 0.7 come out quickly 01:33 <+due> What you want should be pretty easy. 01:33 <+due> !!!! 01:33 <+due> I got one of my tree levels. :D 01:33 <@dpeg> :) 01:34 <+due> dpeg: I changed the pools layout to occasionally place trees, it looks ace :) 01:34 <@dpeg> greensnark asked if the trees in Swamp couldn't be bushes or plants sometimes. 01:34 <@dpeg> due: yes, I read that. 01:34 <@dpeg> Good thinking. 01:34 < nrook> Speaking of something completely unrelated, I think something should be done about mystic blast. 01:34 <+due> Someone else had that idea 01:34 <+due> Not sure who 01:34 <+due> nrook: What's wrong with it? 01:34 < nrook> (I've been waiting for a while for a lull in the conversation, but you guys keep talking!) 01:35 < Timbermaw> i agree, they talk nonstop 01:35 < nrook> it's a decent, unresistable conjuration available in a very common book 01:35 <+due> And? 01:35 < nrook> so why would any conjurer pick up earth, ever? 01:35 <@dpeg> he says it's too good for the availability 01:35 <+due> LCS/ 01:35 <+due> Then we should tone down the availability of power. 01:36 < nrook> I think it's too good for any availability greater than "in annihilations," to be honest. 01:36 < nrook> Earth would be a lot more interesting if people could dip into it for a decent, irresistable spell. 01:36 <@dpeg> nrook: despite the range 4 nerf' 01:36 < nrook> But with mystic blast, there really isn't any motivation to do so. 01:36 <+due> You can get Mystic Blast with Sif Muna very quickly and very easily. 01:38 < nrook> dpeg: IMB is at range 4 now? 01:38 <@dpeg> yes 01:38 < nrook> even so, you don't need to have a great irresistable spell, or even a good one. It just needs to be non-terrible. 01:39 < nrook> Most enemies won't resist your attacks, and for them you can use your specialty. 01:39 <+doy> how does imb compare to ice bolt? 01:39 <+doy> (or whatever we're calling it these days) 01:39 < ogaz> nrook: even in 0.5, ice bolt is about as good as IMB 01:39 < ogaz> I actually like it better because of the +1 range 01:39 <+due> IMB just has a really good reputation, in my opinion. 01:40 < nrook> ice bolt is probably a little bit better, but it involves another school 01:40 < ogaz> but then, I don't like fire conjurers as much as ice conjurers 01:40 <+doy> ice is a lot more fun than fire 01:40 <+doy> (: 01:40 <+due> Ice is really fun, fire is boring. 01:40 < nrook> this is really only an issue for the fire conjurers, because the ice ones have ice bolt 01:40 <+doy> fire needs more explosions 01:40 <+due> fire conjurers have bolt of magma 01:41 <+due> anyway, what is this conversation about? 01:41 < nrook> but afaik nobody uses it, since mystic blast is much easier to cast (no earth) and good enough 01:41 <+doy> replace ice storm with something more thematic, and ditch bolt of fire 01:41 <+doy> and give fire more explosions 01:41 <+doy> (: 01:41 <+due> nrook: Heh, so? 01:41 <+due> We just make IMB rare. 01:42 < nrook> That works if it's rare enough so that, say, only 1/8 casters will get it by the middle of the game. But even Tukima isn't that rare, is it? 01:42 < nrook> (You could put it back in Annihilations, but I don't think that's on the table :p) 01:42 <+due> I don't get what the issue is. 01:42 <+due> IMB is too good 01:42 <+due> OR 01:42 <+due> IMB overshadows other good spells, so nobody uses them? 01:42 <+due> Or both? 01:43 < TGWi> no and no? 01:43 < nrook> the latter, I think 01:43 < TGWi> ice bolt is better, sticky flame is better 01:43 < TGWi> it overshadows maybe stone arrow 01:43 < nrook> IMB isn't really better than ice bolt, it's just easy to cast 01:43 <+due> I don't get why that is an issue. 01:43 < ogaz> I don't like IMB in annihilations because it's not annihilatory enough 01:43 < TGWi> ogaz: but it is powerful 01:43 <+due> ogaz: Agree, I always found an XL4 spell in annihilations odd. 01:43 < TGWi> demonology has call imp 01:43 <+due> IMB got nerfed in 0.5 with the spell range changes. 01:44 < TGWi> I don't see what the problem is 01:44 < nrook> my point is "mystic blast discourages conjurers from expanding into other schools by giving them a cheap and effective irresistable option" 01:44 <+due> Me neither, to be honest? 01:44 < TGWi> due: you should use some voodoo to make a vault with seasons 01:44 <+due> nrook: So? 01:44 < ogaz> fire conjurers will still need to expand into another school 01:44 < ogaz> unless you want to kill orbs of fire with IMB 01:44 <+due> nrook: They're only cheapening themselves. 01:44 < nrook> so nobody really uses earth 01:45 <+due> I don't think it's our responsibility, they're all quite viable. 01:45 < ogaz> well, the actual issue is that poison arrow is the only thing that keeps poison competitive, but it's also enough to choke earth magic 01:45 < TGWi> s 01:45 < TGWi> erm 01:45 < TGWi> ignore that 01:45 <@dpeg> Does anyone know how stealth and stealth training are affected by heavy armours? 01:46 < nrook> poison arrow is at least in theory rare, though 01:46 <+due> And poison arrow is XL6 and quite powerful. 01:46 < ogaz> dpeg: in 0.5, you cannot train stealth until you have 3*ev in armour skill 01:46 <+due> This is a really familiar argument. 01:47 < ogaz> er, 3*ev penalty 01:47 <+due> In my own opinion, not every school *must* be as viable nor as popular as every other school; they all have positives and negatives, strengths and weaknesses. 01:47 <+due> I still disagree with the notion that all characters should be able to deal with early game threats (poison, cold and fire resistant). They are this for the exact reason that the early game *needs* threats. 01:47 <@dpeg> due: but that does not refer to HEAVY/LIGHT armours as such... greensnark said there would be an effect like that. 01:48 <+due> dpeg: I don't know, sorry? 01:48 <@dpeg> erm, due <--> ogaz 01:48 <+due> :) 01:48 < TGWi> due: interesting threats are less "the player can't deal with them" than they are "they can deal with the player" 01:48 <+due> So, people think that IMB is super powerful, and wlil pass up the Earth school (which itself has some amazingly powerful spells), because of this misconception? 01:49 <+due> I think the best we can do in this situation is to make IMB rarer again (take it out of Power, maybe, or decrease the commonness of power), and issue an advisory. 01:49 <+doy> how does imb compare to, say, bolt of iron? 01:49 < ogaz> imo, IMB is not particularly powerful, and what passes up the earth school is poison arrow 01:49 <+due> "STOP! Iskenderun's Mystic Blast is *not* the spell you think it is!" 01:49 < TGWi> doy: different niche? 01:49 <+due> "If you are using IMB for any of the following reasons, you *should* think again: 01:49 <+doy> TGWi: different how? 01:49 <+due> etc, etc. 01:49 < TGWi> doy: 50% more MP, hella more hunger? 01:49 < nrook> I assume it's much worse, given that it's power 4 rather than power 6 01:50 <+doy> TGWi: whatever the level 4 earth spell is 01:50 <+due> Stone Arrow. 01:50 < TGWi> doy: there is none 01:50 <+doy> stone arrow 01:50 < TGWi> there's stone arrow which is levle 3 01:50 <+due> ??stone arrow 01:50 < TGWi> level 3 01:50 <+due> Stone arrow is level 4, no? 01:50 < TGWi> it's only available in two starting books 01:50 < TGWi> 3 01:50 <+doy> stone arrow used to be 4, at least 01:50 < TGWi> it's 3 01:50 < Henzell> stone arrow[1/1]: A level 3 earth/conjuration spell. Found in the book of Geomancy, starting book for EEs, and also in the Book of Conjurations [fire], starting book for fire-based conjurers. Does 2d12 dmg at max power. Does massive damage from ghosts for some reason. 01:50 <+doy> i don't know if it was changed 01:50 < TGWi> damnit guys it's level 3 01:50 < TGWi> :[ 01:50 < ogaz> dpeg: sorry, what I said referred only to heavy armours, you could train stealth from the beginning in light. I don't know how it works in 0.6 01:50 <+pointless_> I think it was always level 3 01:50 <@dpeg> ogaz: thank you very much 01:51 < nrook> nobody knows what level stone arrow is because nobody ever has any reason to cast it =/ 01:51 < TGWi> nrook: cj[f], ee 01:51 <+pointless_> It's level 3 now and has been for as long as I can recall 01:51 < TGWi> ee definitely uses it because it's their first long range conjuration 01:51 <+due> nrook: It's an excellent starting spell for conjurers lookin to go to EE. 01:51 < TGWi> and if people don't play ee, it's not stone arrow's fault 01:51 <+doy> i guess my knowledge is kinda weak since i've never seriously played ee 01:51 <+doy> (: 01:51 < nrook> (except ee, nobody plays ee but that's not-yeah) 01:52 <+doy> i think the problem with ee is mostly that it's based around just raw damage, but fire does that better already 01:52 <+doy> we need to fix fire, i think 01:52 < nrook> also stone arrow has a bad (probably unfair) reputation 01:53 <@dpeg> the elements need diversification as much as anything else 01:53 < TGWi> ice is plenty different, so's air 01:53 < ogaz> earth is pretty different too, though 01:54 < TGWi> it's just poison's gimmick is "almost being earth" and fire only has conjurations 01:54 < nrook> my point is just that more people would go into earth were earth the goto place for irresistable damage, but with irresistable damage everywhere that isn't really a benefit 01:55 < TGWi> is it bad if an element can't compete in conjurations? 01:56 < TGWi> earth's conjurations aren't bad, and whether conjurers use them, EE types do 01:56 < Eronarn> TGWi: did you get your access? 01:56 < TGWi> earth has shatter, not mud storm 01:56 < TGWi> eronarn: yeah 01:56 < TGWi> earth only HAS two conjurations, yeah? 01:56 < ogaz> 3 01:56 < TGWi> and bolt of magma but shut up 01:56 < ogaz> I was actually referring to stone arrow, iron bolt, and LCS 01:56 < TGWi> orite 01:57 < ogaz> also there's several earth/tmut damage spells; I'm not sure how it all works out for EE because I've rarely felt inclined to play it 01:57 < nrook> hmm, are books like the Monster Manual artefacts? 01:58 <+due> No 01:58 < nrook> it would be fun to have more medium-rarity books like that with goofy themes 01:58 <+due> They're just books :) 02:00 < ogaz> does EE have early-game issues of their exp being split too much between earth, tmut, and conj? 02:00 < TGWi> ee keeps conjuration off I think 02:00 < TGWi> and no more than IE splits it between ice/coj/enc 02:01 < ogaz> IE doesn't need to raise ench early, though 02:01 < TGWi> does ee need conj early? 02:01 < nrook> a book of really loud spells! 02:01 < ogaz> I have no idea, that's why I'm asking 02:01 < TGWi> nrook: 02:01 < TGWi> ??book of tempests 02:01 < Henzell> book of tempests[1/1]: Spells: Static Discharge, Lightning Bolt, Fireball, Shatter 02:01 < nrook> oh, that already exists 02:01 < TGWi> :P 02:02 < TGWi> there are already a bunch of goofy midgame books that nobody uses because they're so goofy 02:02 <@dpeg> we all know that spells need love, both local (spell by spell) and global (the whole schools) 02:03 <+due> dpeg: Sure, but there hav ebeen a lot of voices screaming for us to make all the schools inherently the same, and I don't think that is a good approach. 02:03 < nrook> how about a thief's handbook! 02:03 < nrook> apportation, swiftness, control teleport, lrd, invisibility 02:04 <@dpeg> due: absolutely 02:04 <@dpeg> nrook: passwall? 02:04 < nrook> passwall, yeah! 02:04 < TGWi> due: who screamed that? that's stupid 02:04 <+due> TGWi: A variety of people. 02:04 <@dpeg> nrook: propose it, it's nice 02:04 <@dpeg> we now also have noises and ranges to differentiate spells/schools 02:05 < TGWi> LRD? wha? 02:05 < TGWi> isn't that loud? 02:05 < nrook> well, not every thief is subtle 02:05 <@dpeg> TGWi: it is very easy to slip into that mode of thinking 02:05 < nrook> it's loud, but it's the only way to break into certain places 02:05 <@dpeg> TGWi: dynamite --> tresor 02:05 < TGWi> fair enough 02:05 -!- Iainuki_ [n=NoOne@unaffiliated/iainuki] has joined ##crawl-dev 02:06 < TGWi> call it "book of burglary" though 02:07 <+due> dpeg: Add the conducts thing to the 0.7 wishlist, I might give it a go. 02:07 < nrook> TGWi: that's a better name :) 02:07 <@dpeg> due: cool but perhaps by already has a plan :) 02:07 <+due> dpeg: Not sure, perhaps :) 02:08 <@dpeg> due: but we really need conducts and piety for exploration to move on to some cool new god or god changes. 02:08 <@dpeg> How does Armour training work right now? I couldn't get it out of Henzell. 02:08 <+due> dpeg: Easily done by a quick overhaul, I think. 02:08 < TGWi> ??armour skill[2] 02:08 < Henzell> armour skill[2/4]: The EV penalty of a piece of armour is reduced by (Armour skill * strength) / 60, but cannot be reduced to less than half (round towards zero) of its original value; -3 EV armour always gives at least -1 EV. 02:09 < TGWi> ??armour skill[3] 02:09 < Henzell> armour skill[3/4]: The chance of exercising the armour skill when a monster hits and deals more than 0 damage is equal to: (body armour weight)/2000 and is capped at 50%. You have an equal chance of exercising it one or two units. 02:09 < TGWi> ??armour skill[4] 02:09 < Henzell> armour skill[4/4]: The armour skill also has a (body armour weight)/6000 chance of being excersied 1 point every 20 turns or so. This chance is capped at 1 in 6. 02:09 < TGWi> [3] and [4] 02:09 <@dpeg> thanks 02:09 < nrook> ooh, how about a book of spells which make you harder to kill? 02:09 < TGWi> as of 0.5 I think 02:09 <@dpeg> so there is NO reference to HEAVY/LIGHT here? 02:09 < TGWi> nrook: ozo... 02:09 < nrook> stoneskin, ozocubu's armour, phase shift, death's door 02:09 < TGWi> dpeg: it only trains in heavy armour 02:09 <@dpeg> ok 02:09 < TGWi> stoneskin and ozo in the same book is bleah 02:10 <+due> dpeg: It's also like the stoneskin FR, "please let undead use it. you could call it XYZ instead. but please let them use it!". 02:10 <+due> dpeg: which is so totally different from "stoneskin is boring, let's make it interesting". 02:10 < TGWi> what's like that? 02:10 < nrook> alright, replace ozo with dmsl 02:10 < TGWi> nrook: cool! 02:10 < ogaz> throw in borgnjor 02:10 <+due> dmsl is rubbish 02:10 <+due> do borgjnor instead :D 02:10 < ogaz> do both 02:11 * ogaz uses dmsl 02:11 < nrook> am I right in assuming that it's really easy to add new books? 02:11 <+due> that makes it sound like a drug. 02:11 <+due> nrook: not really easy, but relatively. 02:11 <+due> anyway 02:11 <+due> are we all for turning down the commonness oof book of power? 02:11 <+due> now that it has IMB? 02:11 <+due> ??book of power 02:11 < Henzell> book of power[1/1]: Contains Animate Dead, Venom Bolt, Bolt of Iron, Invisibility, Mass Confusion and Poisonous Cloud. 02:11 <@dpeg> due: yes, you are correct, as I said. Stand strong! 02:11 < TGWi> due: sure 02:12 < TGWi> I liked book of power before though 02:12 < nrook> well, it's either that or put ood somewhere else 02:12 < TGWi> it was like a list of spells that people don't use 02:12 <+due> No, OOD is good for Annihilations. 02:12 < nrook> er, mystic blast 02:12 <+kilobyte> Annihilations isn't full. 02:12 <+due> We could always move it back to Annihilations. 02:12 < nrook> that was like a typo, except I typed something completely different from what I meant 02:12 < TGWi> how full is full? 02:12 <+due> TGWi: Nine spells. 02:12 < TGWi> book of the sky is just completely nuts 02:12 < TGWi> ??book of the sky 02:12 < Henzell> book of the sky[1/1]: Summon Elemental, Insulation, Airstrike, Flight, Silence, Lightning Bolt, Deflect Missiles, Conjure Ball Lightning. 02:12 <+due> Is it nine spells? 02:13 < nrook> we could have a book of medium-sized conjurations 02:13 < TGWi> and that's only eight, what 02:13 <+due> Ah, 8. 02:13 <+kilobyte> 8, Annihilations has 6 02:13 < nrook> it's kind of weird that vehumet gives the book of power, anyway, since it has a bunch of not-conjurations in it 02:13 <+due> why did I think it was nine? Maybe because of all the level nine spells. 02:13 < TGWi> 6 is a good book size 02:13 < ogaz> book of the sky reminds me: summon elemental should probably leave geomancy, as there's no way to train up summoning to actually get it castable without abyssing you or something 02:13 <+due> Spell book overhauls -> 0.7. 02:13 < ogaz> okay 02:13 <+due> So, either make power less common, or move IMb back to Annihilations. 02:13 <+due> dpeg, thoughts? 02:14 < nrook> due: yeah, that's true. Just make power less common then, not too much collateral 02:14 <@dpeg> due: on what? My thoughts are: no changes based on lukewarm irc discussions :) 02:14 <+due> I lean towards making power less common, or leaving it as-is. 02:14 < TGWi> lukewarm irc discussions are the best 02:14 <@dpeg> Rather: what's the limit for Armour training, depending on your armour? 02:15 <@dpeg> TGWi: no, changes coming from them can lead to an annoying amount of work. 02:15 <@dpeg> 3*EVP? 02:15 < ogaz> dpeg: it stops training passively at that point, but I think it still trains if you take damage while wearing it 02:15 <@dpeg> anybody can confirm? 02:17 < nrook> another book idea: the Tome of the Dragon, which contains dragony spells! (after this I'll stop, though this is very addicting) 02:17 < nrook> flight, cause fear, bolt of fire, dragon form 02:17 < TGWi> nrook: no don't 02:17 < TGWi> this is fun 02:18 <@dpeg> nrook: wiki! :) 02:18 < nrook> dpeg: I don't have page-creation powers :( Somebody else will have to do it for me 02:18 < nrook> I bet this could be moved to ##crawl, too, since it isn't like there are real Design Decisions being made, and everybody will have fun ideas 02:19 < TGWi> nrook: I can compile these if you say them again 02:19 <@dpeg> nrook: not an updater? 02:19 < nrook> dpeg: oh hey, I am, apparently, according to mantis 02:19 < nrook> did not know this! 02:20 -!- SiberSchool [n=go@fl-69-68-157-22.sta.embarqhsd.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 02:20 < nrook> yeah, I am 02:20 <@dpeg> nrook: expect new pages now 02:20 < nrook> sweet, now I'm officially part of the coterie of medium-skilled players who hang out in ##crawl-dev and say things every once in a while 02:21 < ogaz> dpeg: with 18 armour skill in plate, I managed to train armour by having a stone giant hit me(though dodging trained faster) 02:21 < TGWi> brainstorm>magic>new page "Books," right? 02:21 < ogaz> (this was using wizmode 0.5) 02:22 < TGWi> or brainstorm>magic>spells>book ideas? or what? wiki is perplexing 02:22 <@dpeg> TGWi: either of these are okay 02:22 < nrook> I can confirm that, my storm dragon armour games generally have 15 armour and like 10% training 02:22 <+due> WIKI! <3 02:22 <@dpeg> ogaz: what does that confirm? :) 02:22 < nrook> TGWi: if you haven't started yet, I can do it (it turns out I do have wiki privileges) 02:22 < TGWi> ok, cool, you do it 02:23 <+due> I still haven't fixed the of flame of flame deaths 02:23 <+due> I hav eno idea what to do about them. 02:23 <+due> Oh wait 02:24 < ogaz> dpeg: that you can train armour non-passively by having things damage you even once your armour skill is >=3*EVP 02:25 <@dpeg> ogaz: thanks! 02:25 <@dpeg> I am trying to set up a completely new Armour training, but for this I need to know the current one. 02:26 < nrook> hmm, do I want to start brainstorm:magic:books:start? 02:27 < nrook> or just brainstorm:magic:books? 02:27 < TGWi> nrook: book of immunity: resist poison, insulation, see invisible, deflect missiles 02:27 <@dpeg> the latter 02:27 <@dpeg> my idea is that armour training *only* depends on (total damage)/(armour skill), up to constants. What do you think? 02:28 <@dpeg> ogaz: do you also know about Dodging trainingß 02:29 < ogaz> dpeg: no, sorry. All I know is it doesn't train if your armour is <3*evp and you're in heavy 02:30 <@dpeg> that might suffice 02:31 <@dpeg> do we agree that (1) Armour training is a bit too slow, (2) the passive training is bad, (3) the active training is scummable (hence also not ideal)? 02:31 < nrook> TGWi: Statue Form? 02:31 < TGWi> ooh, that can replace dmsl 02:31 -!- henryci [n=henry@c-71-232-165-41.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:32 < purge> every skill is scummable? 02:32 < TGWi> maybe ice form for sinv too, for the elemental resistance 02:32 <@dpeg> purge: some are worse than others 02:32 < TGWi> that also puts it at 2 enchantments and 2 transmutations, none sharing auxiliary schools <3 02:33 <@dpeg> purge: standing in a sea of tiny monsters with full pool, doing nothing == bad 02:33 < nrook> TGWi: put in ring of flames, and you can resist every element :) 02:33 < TGWi> nrook: yeah :D 02:33 < TGWi> ??statue form 02:33 < Henzell> statue form[1/2]: Grants great AC (17 + earth/2), a 50% HP boost, and +2 Str, but makes the base action cost of an action 15 instead of 10, similar to the slow spell. Available slots: weapon, cloak, helmet, boots. Provides rPois, rElec, rN+. Huge unarmed damage: base = unarmed_skill + 12 + str. In statue form, {stoneskin} adds more AC than normal. 02:34 <@dpeg> nrook: cold? 02:34 < nrook> dpeg: ice form! 02:34 <@dpeg> sure 02:35 < nrook> I need a name for the stoneskin/phase shift/borgnjor/etc book, too 02:35 < nrook> I have the "book of survival", but that's a bad name 02:35 < TGWi> book of defense, if you're boring 02:35 <+due> no 02:35 <+due> book of skins 02:35 < TGWi> that's sort of neat 02:35 < TGWi> book of durability? 02:36 < nrook> have to take out borgnjor if you're going to call it the book of skins, though 02:36 <+due> needs more creepy 02:36 <+due> why take out borgnjor? 02:36 -!- dpeg [n=dpeg@dis.angband.pl] has quit ["sleep"] 02:36 <+due> book of flesh 02:36 < TGWi> oh my god, book of flesh! 02:36 < nrook> haha, that's a fun name! 02:36 <+due> you have to put cigottuvi's degeneration in in that case 02:36 < TGWi> stoneskin sublimation simulacrum 02:36 <+due> okay, time to go out <3 02:36 < TGWi> degeneration 02:36 < TGWi> g'day due 02:36 <+due> TGWi: oooh, true. 02:37 <+due> g'day? 02:37 <+due> you're not australian :o 02:37 < TGWi> g'night 02:37 < nrook> g'night due then 02:37 <+due> !tell mu_ Working on it, thanks! 02:37 < Henzell> due: OK, I'll let mu_ know. 02:37 <+due> I'll be back in an hour ;) 02:37 < TGWi> everyone is australian while working on crawl 02:37 < TGWi> uh, good evening then 02:37 -!- mincedd [n=matthew@pool-96-237-13-234.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:38 -!- Siber [n=go@fl-69-68-157-22.sta.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:39 < TGWi> book of contact: confusing touch, freeze, vamp drain 02:39 < TGWi> um 02:39 < nrook> sticky flame, soon! 02:39 < TGWi> yeah :D 02:39 < ogaz> shock :P 02:39 < TGWi> shock? 02:39 < nrook> :p 02:40 < nrook> how often do you cast shock not adjacent to an enemy? :) 02:40 < TGWi> ah, heh 02:40 < TGWi> static discharge 02:40 < TGWi> confusing touch, freeze, vamp drain, static discharge, sticky flame soon sounds like a good book 02:40 < ogaz> I don't know if sticky getting nerfed that hard is a good idea; doesn't that end up with fire being just worse than ice? 02:41 < TGWi> ogaz: at the same time as making more spells I think 02:41 < nrook> sticky is already really strong, and this makes it more fun imo 02:41 < nrook> reavers don't care about the range problem 02:42 < purge> sticky flame needs at least a range of 2 02:42 < TGWi> why 02:42 < nrook> anyway, it'll be getting perfect accuracy, too! 02:42 < TGWi> nrook, are you writing these down or should I be? 02:43 < purge> because it cannot be used with conjure flame if range is 1 02:43 < TGWi> purge: heh 02:43 < nrook> TGWi: I am! 02:43 < TGWi> nrook: cool 02:43 < TGWi> would book of bolts be overpowered? 02:43 < nrook> it might already exist, actually 02:43 < TGWi> cold, fire, venom 02:44 < TGWi> shock 02:44 < nrook> also we ran out of bolts with the name changes! 02:44 < nrook> is magma a real bolt? 02:44 < TGWi> s/shock/lightning 02:44 < TGWi> I'd include one of fire or magma 02:44 < TGWi> maybe even magma, since it represents earth as well 02:44 < nrook> I can't remember if magma is actually a bolt or not 02:44 < TGWi> lightning bolt, venom bolt, bolt of magma, bolt of cold 02:44 < TGWi> it is 02:45 <@elly> bolt of ice makes vastly more sense 02:45 < TGWi> ? 02:45 <@elly> what is a 'bolt of cold'? 02:45 < TGWi> ok, that's true 02:46 < nrook> how would a bolt of ice go through people, though? 02:46 < nrook> without killing them? 02:46 < TGWi> but if it were made of ice it would have to be partially irresistible 02:46 < TGWi> and that would be hella OP 02:46 <@elly> oh, I see 02:46 <@elly> hrm 02:46 <@elly> nrook: it's not like a bolt of magma is any differnet 02:46 <@elly> different 02:46 <@elly> it's molten rock at several hundred degrees 02:46 < TGWi> but yeah, you can't even say "it's made of energy" because cold isn't energy 02:47 < nrook> elly: oh, yeah, that's true, magma doesn't make any sense either 02:47 <@elly> what's the theme you're going for? 02:47 < nrook> http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:magic:books 02:47 <@elly> well so 02:48 <@elly> a bolt of cold _could_ work 02:48 <@elly> create a localized area of very low-temperature air and throw it at someone 02:48 <@elly> ooh, I like 02:48 < TGWi> elly: yeah I thought of that too 02:48 -!- Yeznik [n=yeznik@72-45-9-012-dhcp.gsv.md.atlanticbb.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 02:48 < TGWi> but it has to be an air spell then 02:48 <@elly> it's true 02:48 <@elly> well, which book is this for? 02:48 <@elly> Book of Bolts? :P 02:48 < nrook> book of bolts 02:48 <@elly> aha, okay 02:48 < nrook> not even kidding 02:48 < nrook> it wasn't my idea :p 02:48 <@elly> what are the existing bolts? 02:48 < TGWi> sorry :P 02:49 <@elly> okay, well, the 'Bolt of foo' name theme sounds a little bit silly when carried to that extreme 02:49 < TGWi> ok so ignore that book 02:50 < SiberSchool> Bolt of bolts 02:50 <@elly> well, there's a good theme in there though 02:50 -!- SiberSchool is now known as Siber 02:50 <@elly> it's more or less the book of hard-hitting single-target spells 02:50 <@elly> right? 02:50 < TGWi> bolts are the multi-target ones 02:50 <@elly> oh 02:52 < ogaz> in 0.5, some were multi-target and some single; I think in 0.6 only every bolt is multi-target 02:52 < ogaz> also I like the idea of a book of bolts, vehumet could gift it instead of power 02:52 -!- Kyrris [n=1@c-67-186-34-100.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 02:52 < TGWi> oh, woah, you're right 02:53 <@elly> okay, well 02:53 < purge> vehumet is the summoner god too 02:53 < Kyrris> Every time someone says "woah", I hear "I know kung fu." 02:53 < TGWi> and we could make a low-level general conjurations book instead of book of conjurations 02:53 < purge> really power should contain a couple summons 02:53 < TGWi> purge: right, which is why he also gives book of summonings 02:53 <@elly> hrm 02:53 < Kyrris> Really, Vehumet should stop giving summoner books. 02:54 < TGWi> he gives summ books if you have more summoning 02:54 <@elly> 'multi-target spells' isn't a cohesive theme in the same way that the first three books on that page are themes 02:54 < Kyrris> He's perfect for conjurers. He doesn't give summoners anything but a wizardry bonus. 02:54 < purge> summ books? you mean book? 02:54 <@elly> multi-target spells vaguely strikes me as something like 'Tome of Slaughter' 02:54 < TGWi> tome of the dragon is a work of art 02:54 < TGWi> purge: what the hell are you talking about 02:54 < TGWi> callings, summonings, demonology 02:54 < purge> oh thats right 02:55 < nrook> oh, I assumed purge was just insulting the book of demonology 02:55 < TGWi> :P 02:55 < purge> i don't play summoners 02:55 < purge> well haven't in years 02:55 < ogaz> demonology is an awful book, from what people who actually play summoners say 02:55 <@elly> is there already something like a Book of Protection? 02:55 < TGWi> I hear demonic horde is fun 02:55 < nrook> the book of demonic horde 02:56 < TGWi> ??demonology 02:56 < Henzell> demonology[1/1]: Abjuration, Recall, Call Imp, Summon Demon, Demonic Horde, Summon Greater Demon. Cannot be read unless you are a level 10 summoner and level 6 spellcaster, or a Vehumite. Cannot be acquired except by "I give up, heres a random book." Vehumet's third gift to summoners and sixth to conjurers. 02:56 < ogaz> elly: I don't think so 02:56 <@elly> Book of Immunity has elemental resists and stuff; what about physical damage resists? 02:56 < TGWi> see also: greater demon 02:56 <@elly> (are there enough of those to care about?) 02:56 < Kyrris> Castable spirit status would be nice. 02:56 < TGWi> elly: book of skins is up there 02:56 <@elly> oh, so it is 02:56 <@elly> Book of Reshaping 02:56 < ogaz> elly: I can think of 3: stoneskin, ozocubu's armour, and condensation shield. The problem is, you can't have stoneskin and ozocubus simultaneously 02:56 < nrook> the book of dreams 02:57 <@elly> nrook: ooh, I like 02:57 < nrook> I have no idea what the book of dreams would contain, though 02:57 <@elly> a random selection of spells each time you find it? :) 02:57 < nrook> other than ensorcelled hibernation :p 02:57 <@elly> (yes, I know that's hard) 02:57 < TGWi> book of dreams with EH <3 02:57 < TGWi> intoxication? 02:57 < nrook> intoxication, maybe, yeah 02:58 < nrook> shadow creatures! 02:58 < Kyrris> Intox, EH, tame beasts, polymorph other 02:58 < TGWi> flight? :P 02:58 < Kyrris> And shadow creatures, yeah. 02:58 < TGWi> kyrris' are nice too 02:58 < TGWi> and shadow creatures! 02:58 < Kyrris> That's a good set of dreamy five. 02:59 < nrook> indeed, I'll add it 02:59 -!- Cryp71c [i=Cryp71c@c-68-53-104-165.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 02:59 < TGWi> which five? 02:59 < Kyrris> tm/pois, ice/ench, ench, tm, summ 02:59 < Kyrris> Intox, EH, tame beasts, polymorph other, shadow creatures. 02:59 < nrook> yeah 02:59 < TGWi> no flight? 02:59 < nrook> ?? polymorph other 02:59 < Henzell> polymorph other[1/6]: Changes monsters into other monsters, likely to be harder, but without equipment. When used on players by monsters or uniques, it causes bad mutations 9 times out of 10, or otherwise a random mutation, which can still be bad. You can't use it on yourself 02:59 < ogaz> wait, why tame beasts and poly? 02:59 < nrook> oh, right, flight is cool, too 02:59 < nrook> hmm 02:59 < nrook> tame beasts because you count sheep, I assume 02:59 < Kyrris> ogaz: Apparently you don't have the same dreams I do. :P 03:00 < TGWi> silence maybe 03:00 < Kyrris> Tame beasts because it gets a power bonus vs. sheep. 03:00 < TGWi> dunno 03:00 < TGWi> clearly we need a summon sheep spell 03:00 < ogaz> Kyrris: I dunno, I almost never remember even dreaming 03:00 < nrook> I thought about silence, but I don't like it, since it's supposed to be stifling 03:00 < TGWi> nrook: oh yeah 03:00 < Kyrris> Yeah, anything that wakes people up shouldn't be in :Dreams. 03:00 < TGWi> phase shift? 03:00 < TGWi> not really 03:01 < Kyrris> Phase shift would be better than poly. 03:01 < Kyrris> No? 03:01 < Kyrris> Two planes at once. 03:01 < nrook> eh/intox/flight/tame beasts might be good enough 03:01 < Kyrris> Who says what the immaterial one is? 03:01 < ogaz> I still don't get tame beasts, but whatever 03:01 < TGWi> :P 03:02 < TGWi> yeah I'd replace tame with shadow creatures and phase shift 03:02 < nrook> oh, right, shadow creatures, forgot that 03:02 < nrook> that's better, yes 03:02 < nrook> so EH/Alistair's/Flight/Phase Shift/Shadow Creatures 03:03 < TGWi> cool 03:03 < Kyrris> That makes... ice/ench, air/ench, summ, tloc/ench, and pois/tmut. 03:03 < TGWi> phase shift isn't ench 03:03 < Kyrris> I like that, for a generalist wizard book. 03:03 < TGWi> it's a nice mix 03:03 < Kyrris> Pure tloc? 03:03 < TGWi> yeah 03:03 < Kyrris> 2,6,5,6,4 03:03 < Kyrris> Good mid-power book. 03:03 < TGWi> yeah :D 03:04 < TGWi> but that's wrong 03:04 < nrook> hmm, I know where the "real" books are, but I can't find the fixedarts 03:04 < TGWi> ??alistairs 03:04 < Henzell> alistairs intoxication[1/3]: Confuses all natural monsters in line of sight which aren't poison resistant or of animal or lower intelligence. This includes you if not wearing an amulet of clarity. Also drains 1-3 points of intelligence 5% of the time. Found only in Book of Party Tricks, L4 Transmutation-Poison spell. 03:04 < TGWi> 2,4,4,5,5 03:04 < TGWi> which is also a good mid-power book 03:04 < nrook> I remember hearing about a "second course in magic" on somethingawful which was all, like, power 4 spells, but it isn't in spl-book.cc 03:04 < nrook> TGWi: an ogre's paradise :) 03:04 < ogaz> nrook: that's a randart 03:04 < TGWi> that's a randart 03:04 < nrook> oh, that's a randart? that explains it 03:05 < TGWi> there are two types of randart books, the fixed-school and fixed-level ones 03:05 < ogaz> occasionally you get randart books that have all the spells at the same level 03:05 < TGWi> the fixed level ones are rarer but completely awesome 03:05 < ogaz> I remember getting a Boris book in Pan with all level 7 spells 03:05 < TGWi> book of reality, for anti-magic effects? 03:05 < TGWi> see invisible, silence 03:05 < TGWi> uh 03:05 < nrook> oh wow, that's really cool ogaz 03:05 < nrook> but wait 03:05 < nrook> if it's level 7, it doesn't have iron bolt, drain, or crystal spear! 03:06 < Kyrris> Flight is 5? 03:06 < TGWi> ??flight 03:06 < Henzell> flight[1/1]: Level 4 ench/air. Grants levitation and controlled flight for its duration. Found in the {book of the sky}. 03:06 < TGWi> it's 4 03:06 < Kyrris> Oh, wow. 03:06 <+doy> what interesting level 7 spells are there? 03:06 < Kyrris> I was thinking dMsl/haste/silence, I guess. 03:06 < TGWi> greater demon 03:06 < Kyrris> Are restricted-book spells allowed in other books? 03:06 < nrook> every single tloc spell 03:07 < nrook> Kyrris: yeah, Shatter's in the book of tempests 03:07 < Kyrris> Right. 03:07 < nrook> and Haunt hangs out in Summonings 03:07 < ogaz> shatter's also in the other book with dragonform, I think 03:07 < TGWi> nrook, you forgot the book of flesh 03:07 < nrook> TGWi: honestly, I missed the book of flesh completely 03:07 < nrook> TGWi: I'll go look for it 03:07 <@elly> Book of Rending! 03:08 < Timbermaw> animate dead on meat rations should make dancing ribs 03:08 < TGWi> stoneskin sublimation simulacrum cigotuvi 03:08 < TGWi> nrook: ping 03:08 < Kyrris> Animate dead should make chunks into toe golems. 03:09 < nrook> TGWi: book of alliteration! I like it. 03:09 < TGWi> hahaha 03:09 < TGWi> that was flesh 03:09 < nrook> I know, but it's a book with cool alliteration 03:10 < nrook> ?? simulacrum 03:10 < Henzell> simulacrum[1/2]: Powerful but easy-to-kill ice copies of monsters. These can inflict massive amounts of damage if the player lacks cold resistance. They also leave a cloud of freezing vapor when killed. 03:10 < nrook> ?? cigutovi 03:10 < Henzell> I don't have a page labeled cigutovi in my learndb. 03:10 < nrook> ?? degeneration 03:10 < Henzell> degeneration[1/1]: Drains a random attribute (str, int, dex). By 1d4. Will kill you of {stat drain} if chosen stat is low enough. 03:10 < nrook> ?? cigotovi's degeneration 03:10 < Henzell> I don't have a page labeled cigotovis_degeneration in my learndb. 03:11 < TGWi> ??cigotuvis degeneration 03:11 < Henzell> cigotuvis degeneration[1/2]: Requires line of fire, checks magic resistance, only works on natural monsters. Turns enemy into a {pulsating lump}, which means not only that you don't get the original monster's exp, but that you'll get mutated if it hits you. 03:11 <+doy> simulacrums should leave a radius 1 cloud of freezing vapour 03:11 < TGWi> ??cigotuvis degeneration[2] 03:11 < Henzell> cigotuvis degeneration[2/2]: Naturally, you SHOULD cast this on every monster worth less than 52 XP, if you have the spell hungerless. Actually, just use Polymorph Other on them. 03:11 <+doy> rather than just a single tile 03:11 < TGWi> doy: they do 03:11 < TGWi> oh, what? 03:11 <+doy> make them actually dangerous 03:11 <+doy> rather than just annoying 03:11 <+doy> (: 03:11 < nrook> aww, I wanted to check its level because I'm listing them in that order 03:11 < TGWi> they are VERY dangerous 03:11 <+doy> them = the clouds, that is 03:11 < TGWi> af cold is nuts 03:11 <+doy> TGWi: yeah, i meant the cloud part 03:11 < TGWi> ah ok 03:13 < nrook> I like the idea of a book which gets the dungeon itself to do your dirty work 03:13 < TGWi> LRD? 03:13 < TGWi> summon elemental 03:13 < nrook> shadow creatures? 03:13 < TGWi> sure 03:13 < nrook> shadow creatures is such a cool spell if you think about it 03:13 < Kyrris> Castable minefield? 03:14 < nrook> you're, like, summoning the memories of the creatures who have passed before you 03:14 < TGWi> mass confusion, maybe? 03:14 < Kyrris> Or should that stay only a card ability? 03:14 < TGWi> no, enslavement 03:14 < ogaz> book of stone of earth elementals 03:14 < nrook> Kyrris: this is all easy stuff, no new spells I think 03:14 < Kyrris> Ah, okay. 03:14 < Kyrris> Spirits. 03:14 < nrook> I tried to get the stone of earth elementals removed, but it got shot down :( 03:15 < TGWi> nrook: enslavement, LRD, summon elemental, shadow creatures 03:15 < TGWi> maybe tame beasts instead of enslavement 03:15 < nrook> is tame beasts any good, incidentally? 03:15 < Kyrris> Err, book of ghosts: Haunt, shadow creatures, projected noise, freeze. 03:15 < nrook> for such a cool spell I want it to be a hidden gem 03:16 < TGWi> I'm pretty sure it's not very good 03:16 < TGWi> kyrris: freeze is a stretch 03:16 < Kyrris> It works on about half the animals, half the time. 1/5 chance at max power to make pets. 03:16 < Kyrris> Chill touch of death. 03:16 < nrook> freeze is my favorite one in there, actually 03:16 < TGWi> ok, go for it 03:16 < nrook> I'm not so hot on shadow creatures, though 03:17 < TGWi> I'd suggest phase shift but I think I'm overusing it 03:17 < nrook> although I'm thinking everyone has a different picture of what shadow creatures does 03:17 < TGWi> it's just so cool 03:17 < Kyrris> You're the one who talked about summoning those who have gone before. 03:17 < nrook> hmm, yeah 03:17 < ogaz> I'm so happy phase shift is in tloc now; I felt that what tloc needed was a couple of decent spells between levels 4 and 7 03:18 < Kyrris> Tloc needs a damage spell. 03:18 < TGWi> no it doesn't 03:18 < Kyrris> Smite targeted, checks MR. 03:18 < nrook> tloc needs to put stone arrow in the book of translocations 03:18 < ogaz> I want blink other for tloc, that's all 03:18 < Kyrris> "Dislocate". 03:18 < TGWi> dispersal, ogaz 03:18 < TGWi> just expensive 03:18 < ogaz> ??dispersal 03:18 < Henzell> dispersal[1/2]: All monsters that are adjacent to you will be instantly teleported away if they don't resist (via magic resistance). If a monster does resist, 50% of the time it will be blinked instead (even if it's immune!), otherwise nothing happens to it. 03:19 < ogaz> TGWi: I was thinking of something more like what roxanne does 03:19 < TGWi> ok not the same 03:19 < nrook> dispersal should have a second check against 1/2 your opponent's MR instead 03:19 < nrook> anyway, hmm, book of ghosts 03:19 < nrook> I still think it's missing something 03:19 < Kyrris> List of all spells somewhere? 03:19 < TGWi> http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:magic:system:immense 03:19 < TGWi> the big table is sorted by school 03:20 < nrook> cause fear? 03:20 < TGWi> practical magic is gone in trunk, right? 03:20 < ogaz> what?! 03:20 < TGWi> cause fear, sure 03:20 < TGWi> ogaz: it has like zero spells left 03:21 < nrook> or petrify! 03:21 < TGWi> ??book of practical magic 03:21 < Henzell> book of practical magic[1/1]: Spells: projected noise, selective amnesia, detect curse, dig, remove curse. 03:21 < Kyrris> Cause fear. 03:21 < ogaz> wait, selective amnesia was removed? 03:21 < nrook> wasn't it always pretty much the book of selective amnesia 03:21 < Kyrris> YES. 03:21 < TGWi> no 03:21 < TGWi> dc and rc are gone 03:21 < nrook> the book of being a terrible person 03:21 < TGWi> amnesia was moved to wizardry 03:21 < ogaz> oh, okay 03:21 < nrook> cause fear, berserker rage, selective amnesia 03:21 < TGWi> nrook: haha 03:22 < Kyrris> Book of the Mind. 03:22 < ogaz> book of movement: swiftness, haste, statue form, slow 03:22 < TGWi> book of transportation? passwall, tele self, cblink - holy shit ogaz 03:22 < Kyrris> Cause Fear, Confusion, Berserker Rage, Selective Amnesia. 03:23 < nrook> book of exodus: cause fear, sticks to snakes, haunt, fedhas's sunlight ability 03:23 < TGWi> corona? 03:24 < Kyrris> That's awesome, nrook, but wait until we can get new spells in there. 03:24 < Kyrris> Also, you need summon scorpions. 03:24 < Kyrris> And conjure flame. 03:25 < TGWi> book of chemistry - distillation, evaporation, sublimation 03:25 < TGWi> I'm not even kidding 03:25 < Kyrris> TGWi: Alchemist's Guidebook. 03:26 < TGWi> yeah that 03:26 < Kyrris> Possibly also LRD. Yesno? 03:26 < TGWi> nah 03:26 < Kyrris> It's a good necromut primer, anyway. 03:26 < ogaz> stoneskin? 03:26 < Kyrris> And eminently useful. 03:27 < Kyrris> Stoneskin isn't an alchemical procedure. :P 03:27 < nrook> hmm 03:27 < TGWi> needs more 03:27 < TGWi> but I like that book 03:28 < nrook> I think the book of ghosts needs a better name 03:28 < nrook> phantasmal book? 03:28 < Kyrris> Lethal infusion? 03:28 < TGWi> [adjective] book sounds like an unidentified randart 03:28 < nrook> oh, yeah 03:29 < TGWi> oh 03:29 < TGWi> condensation shield, duh 03:29 < Kyrris> nrook: [Necromancer]'s Dissertation on Spirits 03:29 < Kyrris> Needs a name. 03:29 < TGWi> kyrris: that sounds like an identified randart 03:29 < Kyrris> TGWi: And? 03:29 < TGWi> nrook: book of chemistry - sublimation, condensation, distillation, evaporation 03:29 < Kyrris> It's essentially an unrand, anyway. 03:30 < Kyrris> Not infusion? 03:30 < TGWi> infusion too 03:30 < Kyrris> That's a chemist 03:30 < Kyrris> ry word. 03:30 < nrook> TGWi: I like that a lot, will add it as I try to think of a name for ghosts 03:30 < TGWi> ok 03:31 -!- purge [n=IceChat7@d192-24-82-173.try.wideopenwest.com] has quit ["."] 03:32 < nrook> call it the book of spirits, put in intoxication :p 03:32 < nrook> nah, I'll just add it as ghosts and put a note saying "please better name" since I can't think of anything 03:32 < TGWi> nrook: you're terrible :P 03:33 < Kyrris> I actually like the Spirits pun. 03:33 < Kyrris> And I hate puns. 03:34 < Kyrris> Tell me you put in Cause Fear. 03:34 < Kyrris> Banshee. 03:34 < TGWi> nrook: [book] of mediums? 03:34 < Kyrris> Book of Bahn Sidhe. 03:34 < Kyrris> Bain Sidhe? 03:34 < Kyrris> Yes, Bain. 03:34 < nrook> bain sidhe? 03:34 < TGWi> book of banshees 03:34 < TGWi> projected noise, haunt 03:35 < Kyrris> Instead of ghosts. 03:35 < Kyrris> Bain sidhe. 03:35 < nrook> I mean, I assume that means something but I don't know what 03:35 < Kyrris> Banshee. 03:35 < Kyrris> That's the bastard english spelling. 03:35 < Kyrris> It means female spirit, technically, but the Irish were a euphemistic lot. 03:36 < nrook> everybody's a euphemistic lot when talking about nasty spirits 03:37 < Kyrris> Right. 03:37 < Kyrris> They are the spirits that escort you to the carriage that takes you to hell. 03:37 < nrook> still, I dunno if crawl goes in for references that direct 03:37 < Kyrris> Banshee is a monster TYPE in most games. 03:37 < Kyrris> Like ghasts, or wraiths. 03:37 < nrook> yeah, but "Bain Sidhe" isn't 03:38 < Kyrris> Eh, it's cultural. Use the english spelling, then. 03:38 < ogaz> Yes, Crawl would never reference mythology directly 03:38 < ogaz> see: nessos, polyphemus 03:38 < Kyrris> Proteus. 03:38 < ogaz> oh, also all the hell lords come from various different sources 03:38 < nrook> well, yeah, but they're old 03:39 < nrook> (the hell lords, not the uniques obv) 03:39 < nrook> and look at the fate of chronos 03:39 < nrook> eh, I'll settle it with the mighty / 03:39 < Kyrris> MIGHTY / 03:39 < Kyrris> MIGHTY /. 03:40 < nrook> I think we should stop for now, the list is getting a bit big 03:41 < eith> bain sidhe is the irish for banshee, it literally means fairy woman 03:42 -!- Scrubber [n=nospam@rrcs-69-193-83-116.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:43 < Kyrris> Late to the party, eith. :P 03:43 -!- Iainuki_ [n=NoOne@unaffiliated/iainuki] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:43 < eith> =p 03:45 -!- Iainuki_ [n=NoOne@unaffiliated/iainuki] has joined ##crawl-dev 03:45 -!- nrook [n=nrook@99-50-93-120.lightspeed.wlfrct.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 03:50 < Ashenzari> Amulet of Stasis and Teleport traps (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=546) by LordSloth 04:04 * due back. 04:04 < TGWi> due, http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:magic:books 04:04 <+due> Bainsidhe, is better. 04:05 <+due> Or mBainhsidhe in some transliterations. 04:05 <+due> I still do not get eclipsed consonants in Irish. 04:05 <+due> V. confusing. 04:05 < Kyrris> Ignore them, usually. 04:05 <+due> Oh, is that it? 04:05 < Kyrris> Or toss an h after. 04:05 <+due> That's kinda easy. 04:06 < Kyrris> Bhainsidhe, if you want to transliterate it in a way you can read. 04:06 <+due> I only studied Irish for six months. 04:06 < TGWi> does kyrris speak the irish? 04:06 < Kyrris> I mean don't bother writing them. 04:06 < Kyrris> Not unless you want to impress a speaker. 04:06 <+due> Hehe. 04:06 < Kyrris> TGWi: About as well as due. 04:06 <+due> I can pronounce bits of it. 04:06 <+due> But there's all slide vowels and consonant shifts depending on vowels, and then eclipsing. 04:06 < Kyrris> The eclipsed b is halfway to a v sound. 04:07 < Kyrris> Like spanish b. 04:07 <+due> And then the other thing involving the h. 04:07 < Kyrris> Lenition? 04:07 <+due> Lenition! 04:07 <+due> Thank you. 04:07 < Kyrris> Right. Bh is lenited. 04:07 < Kyrris> Ugh. 04:07 < Kyrris> Fucking Gaelic. 04:07 <+due> Man, it's all coming back to me now. 04:07 <+due> It is not nice. 04:07 < TGWi> ##crawl-arguing-about-linguistics 04:07 <+due> ##crawl-drowning-tgw? 04:07 < Kyrris> Hey, it's relevant to documentation. :P 04:08 <+due> 'tis. 04:08 < ogaz> eith is actually irish, right? 04:09 < eith> aye 04:09 < Kyrris> nh is straight v sound, isn't it? 04:09 < Kyrris> That doesn't mean he speaks any Gaelic. 04:09 * Kyrris peers suspiciously. 04:09 < eith> well we do actually have to learn it in school 04:10 < Kyrris> Oh, really? How many years? 04:10 <+due> I studied Japanese for seven years. 04:10 <+due> I... can't remember a thing. 04:11 < eith> you learn irish all the way up to till your like 15 04:12 <+due> Nice! 04:12 <+due> Conversational or grammatical? 04:13 < eith> you have to be able to speak it in exams 04:14 < eith> and listen to it with horrible dialects and shit 04:14 < Kyrris> Ciao. 04:14 < eith> its horrible lol 04:14 <+due> Ick. 04:14 -!- Kyrris [n=1@c-67-186-34-100.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:16 -!- Iainuki_ [n=NoOne@unaffiliated/iainuki] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:16 -!- Iainuki_ [n=NoOne@unaffiliated/iainuki] has joined ##crawl-dev 04:17 < TGWi> eronarn: ping 04:17 < Eronarn> pong 04:18 < TGWi> you should see the books page 04:19 <+due> who gave TGWi wiki access? baaad idea. 04:19 <+due> :p 04:19 < eith> =p 04:19 < TGWi> due: only once I figure out how to use the wiki 04:19 < Eronarn> ooh, a page 04:19 < Eronarn> I may look. Doing SQL at the moment. 04:20 < TGWi> that sounds gripping 04:20 * due grips TGWi in horror. 04:20 < TGWi> due: do I have to stop using action verbs or something? 04:21 <+due> No. 04:21 <+due> I'm just being silly. 04:21 <+due> It's okay. 04:23 < Eronarn> TGWi: it's not particularly exciting... but i get paid for it! 04:23 < Eronarn> and the data it will contain *is* exciting 04:24 < Iainuki_> What happened to labs? 04:24 <+doy> something happened to labs? 04:24 <+sorear> Iainuki_: I think you meant that for ##crawl-offtopic 04:25 < Iainuki_> It sounds like a Crawl topic. 04:25 < Iainuki_> Is it not? 04:25 < TGWi> ##crawl-ontopic 04:25 < Iainuki_> Ah, I see. 04:25 < TGWi> or just ##crawl I guess 04:27 -!- Iainuki_ is now known as Agarthanuki 04:29 -!- Agarthanuki is now known as Iainuki_ 04:39 <+due> Okay, larva. 04:39 <+due> ant larva -> lightgrey 'a', soldier ant -> white 'a'. Yes? 04:40 < TGWi> yes! 04:40 <+due> And bee larva to lightgrey 'k'. Yes? 04:40 < TGWi> yes!! 04:40 <+due> Anyone else? 04:41 < Eronarn> sure, why not 04:41 < TGWi> what are ant queens, lightred? 04:41 <+due> yes 04:42 <+due> I'm just going to push it, it makes sens. 04:42 < TGWi> my second choice would be larvae brown/red, bees/ants yellow/lightred, queens white 04:42 < TGWi> so that larvae are darkest 04:43 < TGWi> or maybe my first choice! 04:43 <+due> Any other simple ones? 04:43 <+due> what do we think about swapping wolves and wargs? 04:44 < TGWi> @??wolf 04:44 < Gretell> wolf (h) | Speed: 17 | HD: 4 | Health: 12-32 | AC/EV: 3/15 | Damage: 8, 2, 2 | Flags: sense invisible | Res: magic(16) | XP: 99. 04:44 <+due> @??wolf 04:44 < Gretell> wolf (h) | Speed: 17 | HD: 4 | Health: 12-32 | AC/EV: 3/15 | Damage: 8, 2, 2 | Flags: sense invisible | Res: magic(16) | XP: 99. 04:44 < TGWi> @??warg 04:44 < Gretell> warg (h) | Speed: 13 | HD: 4 | Health: 16-36 | AC/EV: 4/12 | Damage: 12, 3, 3 | Flags: sense invisible | Res: magic(32), poison | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 100. 04:44 < TGWi> uh, what colour are wargs 04:44 < TGWi> white? 04:44 <+due> Wargs have more damage, but wolves and considerably faster. 04:44 <+due> yes. 04:44 < TGWi> @??wolf spider 04:44 < Gretell> wolf spider (s) | Speed: 15 | HD: 8 | Health: 24-64 | AC/EV: 3/10 | Damage: 20(medium poison) | Res: magic(32) | Vul: poison | Chunks: poisonous | XP: 454. 04:44 < TGWi> sure 04:45 <+due> Eronarn, thoughts? 04:45 <+doy> i think wargs and wolves should stay 04:45 -!- henryci [n=henry@c-71-232-165-41.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 04:45 <+due> Hm. 04:45 <+due> Okay, leaving them then. 04:45 <+due> Too contentious to do without discussion. 04:45 <+doy> wargs have more hp and rpois 04:45 <+due> giant iguana -> iguana, thoughts? 04:45 < TGWi> uh no 04:45 < TGWi> they're giant 04:46 <+due> "giant" is overuused. 04:46 < Eronarn> due: i'm the one who proposed switching wolves/wargs, so... 04:46 <+due> in a lot of instances where it is unneccessary. 04:46 <+due> 90% of the 'l' are "giant". 04:46 <+doy> i like the idea of renamings like 'giant lizard' -> 'alligator' 04:46 <+due> doy: 'giant lizard' already got renamed to crocodile :) 04:46 <+doy> but just removing 'giant' from things like iguanas is a bit silly 04:46 <+due> @??crocodile 04:46 < Eronarn> due: favor choose one of giant lizard / giant iguana, drop the other, move the stats to be in the middle of the two 04:46 < Gretell> crocodile (t) | Speed: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 5 | Health: 15-40 | AC/EV: 4/10 | Damage: 20 | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: magic(20) | XP: 104. 04:46 <+due> @??giant lizard 04:46 < Gretell> unknown monster: "giant lizard" 04:46 <+doy> due: right 04:47 < TGWi> they weigh like 20 pounds 04:47 < TGWi> exactly how wimpy is a crawl character? 04:47 < Eronarn> giant newts could be made into iguanas 04:47 <+due> Death drakes are bigger than giant igauans 04:47 < TGWi> @??alligator 04:47 < Gretell> alligator (t) | Speed: 10 (act: 80%; swim: 60%) | HD: 12 | Health: 36-108 | AC/EV: 5/9 | Damage: 30 | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: magic(48) | XP: 962 | Sp: swiftness. 04:47 <+due> they're not "giant death trake". 04:47 < TGWi> uh 04:47 < TGWi> speed 10 act 8? 04:47 <+doy> i mean - i'd be up for renaming most 'giant ' monsters, but let's rename them to something that makes sense 04:47 <+due> *giant death drake 04:47 < TGWi> erm 04:47 <+doy> due: um 04:47 < Eronarn> ...why are alligator/croc on t 04:47 < TGWi> 100/8 04:48 <+due> What? 04:48 < Eronarn> at that point you may as well move all non-drake l to t 04:48 <+doy> due: death drakes could be anything, they aren't real 04:48 < TGWi> why are they act 80% 04:48 <+doy> due: 'iguana' has a specific meaning 04:48 <+due> Hm. 04:48 <+due> Let's deal with issues one at a time. 04:48 < Eronarn> maybe they were meant to be speed 8 act 80% 04:48 <+due> TGWi: alligators are a completely new monster that have nothing to do with crocodiles. 04:49 < ogaz> due: giant giant bat 04:49 <+due> and speed 10 act 80% works quite nice in my tests. 04:49 < TGWi> due: who the hell knows the difference? 04:49 <+due> TGWi: what? 04:49 < TGWi> and can seperate them enough to remember that they're completely different? 04:49 < TGWi> :| 04:49 <+due> Dude. 04:49 <+due> They don't even appear together. 04:49 <+doy> TGWi: what? 04:49 <+due> Alligators are a swamp only monster. 04:49 <+due> Crocodiles appear in the early game, the same place as giant lizards used to. 04:50 < Eronarn> @?giant lizard 04:50 < Gretell> giant lizard (l) | Speed: 10 | HD: 5 | Health: 15-40 | AC/EV: 4/10 | Damage: 20 | Flags: cold-blooded | Res: magic(20) | XP: 104. 04:50 <+due> The only difference between crocodiles and giant lizards is that they'r enow amphibious. 04:50 < TGWi> exactly 04:50 <+due> Oh, go away. 04:50 < TGWi> not that 04:50 <+doy> TGWi: what is your point here 04:50 < TGWi> "The term can also be used more loosely to include all members of the order Crocodilia: i.e. the true crocodiles, the alligators..." 04:51 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+o due] by ChanServ 04:51 -!- TGWi was kicked from ##crawl-dev by due [Go away, though.] 04:51 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [-o due] by due 04:51 -!- TGWi [n=TGW@c-68-61-239-31.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 04:51 <+doy> TGWi: different monsters have different stats 04:51 <+doy> this is pretty normal 04:51 < Eronarn> we need an unrand described as crocodile-leather boots 04:51 <+doy> i don't know what you're arguing for 04:51 <+due> Eronarn: Yesss, definitely. 04:51 < TGWi> different monsters with names which are used interchangeably have wildly different stats? 04:51 < Eronarn> due: fwiw TGWi is in the right on this one 04:52 < Eronarn> it was already a problem between giant iguana, giant lizard, komodo dragon 04:52 < TGWi> \o/ 04:52 <+due> I. Don't. Care. 04:52 <+due> They are crocodiles. 04:52 <+doy> the term 'snapping turtle' presumably includes alligator snapping turtles too 04:52 < TGWi> !learn add tgw (10:51:49 PM) Eronarn: due: fwiw TGWi is in the right on this one 04:52 < Henzell> tgw[4/4]: (10:51:49 PM) Eronarn: due: fwiw TGWi is in the right on this one 04:52 <+due> They are different colours, they are different glyphs, they are utterly different. 04:52 <+due> Their descriptions are different. 04:52 < Eronarn> due: the problem is in people fighting them for the first time - there is no easy way to see how much HP something has or how hard it hits 04:53 <+due> Eronarn: SO what? 04:53 <+doy> Eronarn: this is true for all monsters 04:53 <+doy> i don't see what the deal is here 04:53 <+due> They'll learn. 04:53 <+due> doy: Me neither. 04:53 <+due> I renamed giant lizards and moved them onto a new glyph. How is this such a massive issue? 04:53 < Eronarn> doy: it's not a huge deal but it is noticeably not ideal 04:54 < TGWi> there is no problem with renaming and moving onto a new glyph 04:54 <+due> Then what is the issue? 04:54 < TGWi> but the new name is synonymous with the name of a far more powerful enemy 04:54 <+doy> TGWi: but the name is different 04:54 <+due> ... the name is *different*. 04:54 <+due> Are people going t ostart looking up monsters in a dictionary? 04:54 < Eronarn> due: it would be like adding a mouse monster, when we already have rats, that was as tough as a giant iguana 04:54 <+doy> i'm pretty sure people will see the different name and realize 'hey, this is a different monster' 04:54 < TGWi> people do not remember the difference between alligators and crocodiles in real life 04:55 < Eronarn> if you called it a "mighty mouse", then okay 04:55 < TGWi> especially *since* you don't see them in the same place, it may not even click that they're different 04:55 <+due> ARGH. 04:55 < Eronarn> people can tell it's supposed to be bigger 04:55 -!- Iainuki_ [n=NoOne@unaffiliated/iainuki] has quit [] 04:55 <+due> They. Will. Learn. 04:55 < Eronarn> but crocodile vs. alligator is not at all intuitive, you can't tell which is tougher until you're already fighting 04:55 < Eronarn> nobody is saying they won't 04:55 <+due> Then why is this an issue? 04:56 <+doy> "stone giant vs fire giant is not at all intuitive, you can't tell which are tougher until you're already fighting" 04:56 <+doy> "steam dragon vs ice dragon etc" 04:56 <+due> Or cyclops versus hill giant. 04:56 <+due> Or naga warior versus greater naga. 04:56 <+due> Or centaur versus yaktaur. 04:56 < Eronarn> um, what 04:56 < TGWi> greater naga doesn't sound more powerful than naga warrior? really? 04:56 < Eronarn> your examples mostly suck 04:56 < Eronarn> yeah 04:56 < Eronarn> seriously, quoting that forever 04:56 <+due> Go away. 04:56 < TGWi> ice doesn't sound more powerful than steam? 04:56 -!- pointless_ [n=chatzill@ool-4576ec48.dyn.optonline.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20091221164558]"] 04:57 <+doy> TGWi: mottled vs ice then 04:57 <+due> Or just dragon versus ice dragon. 04:57 < TGWi> it would be more like making a stone giant and a rock giant and expecting people to learn 04:57 -!- pointless_ [n=chatzill@ool-4576ec48.dyn.optonline.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 04:57 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v pointless_] by ChanServ 04:57 < TGWi> sure, they might, but it's not necessary that they should have to 04:57 <+due> I said stop. 04:58 <+due> Unless someone decides to override me, no change is happening. 04:59 <+due> Any other simple glyph changes need to happen while I'm doing the larvae? 04:59 < Eronarn> did anyone chime in on reassigning vortexes 04:59 <+due> Shadows really ought to change. 05:00 < TGWi> does anything else use v? 05:00 <+doy> shadows definitely 05:00 < Eronarn> air elementals 05:00 <+doy> TGWi: air elementals 05:00 < TGWi> shadows, lol 05:00 < TGWi> @??earth elemental 05:00 < Gretell> earth elemental (#) | Speed: 6 | HD: 6 | Health: 30-60 | AC/EV: 14/4 | Damage: 40 | Flags: non-living | Res: magic(immune), fire+++, cold+++, elec+++, poison+++ | XP: 84. 05:00 < TGWi> @??water elemental 05:00 < Gretell> water elemental ({) | Speed: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 6 | Health: 30-48 | AC/EV: 0/7 | Damage: 25 | Flags: non-living, amphibious, lev | Res: magic(immune), elec++, poison | Vul: fire | XP: 172. 05:00 < Eronarn> at the moment we have insubstantial wisps on p, air elementals on v, smoke demons on 3, vapours on # 05:00 < Eronarn> al for what essentially look like identical monsters 05:00 <+due> Well, smoke demons are a ... demon. 05:00 < Eronarn> we should reduce this to 2 glyphs at most 05:00 <+due> But vapours and air elementals should be 'p'. 05:00 < TGWi> smoke demon is justified I think 05:00 < Eronarn> ...what 05:01 < TGWi> p is a good thing! 05:01 < Eronarn> why p 05:01 < Eronarn> p is for ghosts 05:01 < TGWi> p is for insubstantial guys 05:01 -!- Timbermaw [n=riquez60@200.175.209.20.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit ["later!"] 05:01 <+due> p is phantoms and insubstantials. 05:01 <+doy> Eronarn: insubstantial wisps are on p 05:01 < Eronarn> um 05:01 <+due> I thin khe wants to move them off p. 05:01 < Eronarn> out of the several insubstantial monsters in the game 05:01 < Eronarn> one of them is on p 05:01 <+doy> so 05:01 <+due> phantoms are on p. 05:01 < TGWi> what else is? 05:01 < Eronarn> due: er, the non-undead-y ones, anyways 05:01 <+due> ghosts. 05:02 < TGWi> what does insubstantial do? I've been speaking from flavor 05:02 <+doy> i'd be alright with moving insubstantial wisps off of p 05:02 <+due> There aren't many other insubstantials. 05:02 <+due> doy: Sure. 05:02 < TGWi> is that the sticky flame thing? 05:02 <+due> but what do? 05:02 <+due> TGWi: Nets, sticky flame 05:02 <+doy> TGWi: among other things 05:02 <+due> TGWi: Some other spells, I forget what. 05:02 < TGWi> so, all p except phantom? 05:02 < TGWi> @??spectral warrior 05:02 < Gretell> spectral warrior (W) | Speed: 10 | HD: 9 | Health: 27-72 | AC/EV: 12/10 | Damage: 18(drain) | Flags: undead, evil, see invisible, lev | Res: magic(72), cold, poison | XP: 541. 05:03 <+doy> i think everything on # and { should be changed, probably 05:03 <+due> doy: Agree, clouds ar eenogh as it is. 05:03 <+doy> that's just pointless interface confusion 05:03 < TGWi> we could go the other way and assign all elemental-types to v 05:03 <+doy> so how about v for insubstantial wisps, vapours, etc 05:03 <+due> doy: I like that. 05:03 < TGWi> high five doy 05:03 <+doy> and p for shadows 05:04 <+due> We could move all elementals to 'v', too, I suppose. 05:04 < Eronarn> why not to E 05:04 <+due> We'd have to move efreeti off. 05:04 <+doy> yeah, we could move efreets elsewhere 05:04 < TGWi> is efreet moving? 05:04 <+doy> R maybe 05:04 < ogaz> I was thinking e, but same idea 05:04 < Eronarn> e is elves 05:04 < TGWi> also what about raks 05:04 <+due> 'E' is to big, thoguh. 05:04 <+doy> efreets to R, elementals to E 05:04 < ogaz> oh, right 05:04 <+due> elementals are kinda naff. 05:04 <+due> I don't want to move rakshasas off R. 05:04 < TGWi> v could be for vapours, vortices 05:04 <+doy> (weren't we going to use R for non-demon demonic monsters?) 05:04 < Eronarn> TGWi: dwar[v]es 05:04 < TGWi> eronarn: lol 05:04 < Eronarn> doy: that was my suggestion, yes 05:05 < TGWi> what other glyphs are unused 05:05 < TGWi> Qi? 05:05 <+doy> so make R rakshasas and efreets 05:05 < Eronarn> ` 05:05 <+due> Which doesn't work, because our rakshasa are demons. 05:05 < Eronarn> ~ 05:05 <+doy> due: non-numbered-demon demonic 05:05 < Eronarn> vapours as ~ would work well i think 05:05 < TGWi> couldn't you assign a tier to raks 05:05 <+due> Can't use ~, unless we fully dump submerging. 05:05 <+doy> you know what i mean 05:05 < ogaz> huh, there really is no good glyph for dwarves 05:05 <+due> ogaz: 'v' works well. 05:05 < TGWi> use 'e' 05:05 <+doy> TGWi: e is too full 05:05 <+due> 'e' would be too confusing. 05:05 < Eronarn> due: there are only like... two vortexes, one proposed. ~ would work fine with limited colors 05:05 <+due> They're currently on @. 05:06 < TGWi> make dwarves replace ALL elves! 05:06 <+due> Eronarn: Yeah, but it's used to denote invisible monsters in clouds as well. 05:06 <+doy> Eronarn: don't really like monster glyphs overlapping with dungeon feature glyphs 05:06 <+due> It's more of amultipurpose feature glyph than a monster glyph. 05:06 < Eronarn> anyways, i like * for vortexes better than v 05:06 <+due> I'm goin got move vapours to 'v', for the minute. 05:06 <+due> For 0.6. 05:06 <+doy> Eronarn: could work too 05:06 <+due> Which is apparently coming out next month. 05:06 <+doy> due: that sounds good 05:06 < Eronarn> a vortex hanging in midair doesn't look appreciably different from an orb 05:06 <+doy> due: heh 05:06 < Eronarn> they're both swirly energy balls 05:06 <+doy> i give it two months at least 05:07 <+doy> due: vapours and insub wisps to v 05:07 <+due> Okay. 05:07 <+doy> shadows to p 05:07 <+due> I'm just going to go ahead and make the changes. 05:07 < Eronarn> but i'd favor this in particular because it frees up v 05:07 <+due> darkgrey p? 05:07 <+doy> due: no darkgrey monsters 05:07 <+due> Hm. 05:07 <+due> blue p is already taken for phantoms. 05:07 <+due> magenta p. 05:07 < TGWi> phantoms aren't insubstantial, are they? 05:08 <+doy> due: darkred? 05:08 < Eronarn> they should be if they aren't, imo 05:08 < TGWi> darkred p is flayed ghost? 05:08 < TGWi> @??flayed ghost 05:08 < Gretell> flayed ghost (p) | Speed: 10 | HD: 11 | Health: 33-88 | AC/EV: 0/14 | Damage: 30 | Flags: undead, evil, lev | Res: magic(58), poison | XP: 719. 05:08 <+doy> TGWi: oh 05:08 <+doy> forgot about that one 05:08 <+doy> phantoms are insubstantial 05:08 < Eronarn> why do we have both W and p, anyways 05:08 <+doy> all current p are insubstantial 05:08 <+due> I like magenta p, 05:08 < TGWi> you can sticky flame phantoms, can't you? 05:08 < TGWi> ??monsters 05:08 < Henzell> monsters[1/1]: Type @?monstername in this channel (or in a PM to Gretell), or see http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/kielosto/crawl_spoilers/ss/crawl_ss_monsters_by_name.html If you want to see the stats of a monster in trunk, use @?? instead of @? 05:09 < TGWi> ??phantom 05:09 < ogaz> not in 0.6 05:09 < Henzell> phantom[1/1]: A ghost that is the same sort of bastard blinker as an imp. Has more AC and hits harder, but doesnt regen like an imp and cant use weapons or armour. Unlike most ghosts, sticky flame adheres to phantoms. 05:09 < TGWi> oh ok 05:09 <+doy> due: magenta is usually used for more dangerous monsters 05:09 <+due> Hm. 05:09 <+doy> TGWi: we recently went through and made the insubstantial monster list more sane 05:09 <+due> cyan? 05:09 < ogaz> darkgrey would be perfect if monsters were allowed to be darkgrey 05:09 <+doy> due: cyan sounds good 05:10 <+due> ogaz: Yeah, no darkgrey. 05:10 <+due> I went with magenta because shadow imps are magenta. 05:10 <+doy> hmmm, i suppose 05:10 < TGWi> also, can butterflies be excluded from both greys? 05:10 <+due> As are shadow demons. 05:11 < TGWi> darkgrey is apparently bad and lightgrey looks like bats 05:11 <+due> TGWi: Kinda difficult at the minute. 05:11 < TGWi> oh? 05:11 <+doy> TGWi: that would be a good idea, but yeah, not sure how hard it would be 05:11 <+due> We'd need to create a new monster-only random colour that restricts using darkgrey and black. 05:11 < TGWi> didn't someone do that with Yiuf? 05:11 <+due> No 05:11 <+due> I was goin gto, but it was to omuch fuss. 05:11 <+doy> excluding dark grey would be easier i think 05:11 <+due> doy: All the "shadow" creatures are magenta. 05:11 <+doy> due: sounds good then 05:11 <+due> We could just make it pick again if it gets darkgrey. 05:11 <+doy> due: right 05:14 <+due> I should do that. 05:15 <+due> We've only elementals on # and { now. 05:15 <+doy> efreets to R, elementals to E 05:16 <+due> I'm not going to FR this, just going to push. 05:16 <+due> I don't think it'll be issueous. 05:16 <+sorear> moving elementals to E? 05:16 * sorear makes sad puppy eyes at due 05:17 <+due> sorear: No, not touching E. 05:17 <+due> sorear: Can you update @?? ? I can't remember how to :( 05:17 <+doy> why not? i think the elemental glyphs are some of the most problematic 05:17 < TGWi> @??alligator 05:17 < Gretell> alligator (t) | Speed: 10 (act: 80%; swim: 60%) | HD: 12 | Health: 36-108 | AC/EV: 5/9 | Damage: 30 | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: magic(48) | XP: 962 | Sp: swiftness. 05:17 < TGWi> @??crocodile 05:17 < Gretell> crocodile (t) | Speed: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 5 | Health: 15-40 | AC/EV: 4/10 | Damage: 20 | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: magic(20) | XP: 104. 05:17 <+due> doy: But the most contentious. 05:17 <+sorear> due: I did it once by accident 05:17 <+due> sorear: Bah. 05:17 <+sorear> due: I don't *actually* know how to either 05:17 <+due> Okay. 05:18 <+due> I'm pretty sure I just have to update the crawl-ref copy and then run the makefile... 05:18 <+doy> due: who's being contentious about them? 05:18 <+due> doy: me ;) 05:18 <+doy> d: 05:18 <+due> doy: I don't like elementals on E. 05:18 <+doy> why not? 05:18 <+due> Because elementals aren't particularly threatening. 05:18 <+due> And E is a ncie and big glyph. 05:19 <+due> Ah, looks like i tis updating. Hooray! 05:19 <+doy> i'd rather make elementals more threatening(: 05:19 <+doy> but that's a bigger change, i suppose 05:19 <+due> Hm, true. 05:19 <+due> Did nobody notice the buff I gave sea snakes? :) 05:20 <+due> It confuses me that we go from sorted by glyph to sorted by type at the end of mon-data.h 05:21 <+due> @??alligator 05:21 < Gretell> alligator (t) | Speed: 10 (act: 80%; swim: 60%) | HD: 12 | Health: 36-108 | AC/EV: 5/9 | Damage: 30, 15 | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: magic(48) | XP: 1089 | Sp: swiftness. 05:21 <+due> Better. 05:21 <+due> @??sea snake 05:21 < Gretell> sea snake (S) | Speed: 12 (swim: 40%) | HD: 10 | Health: 40-90 | AC/EV: 2/15 | Damage: 24(strong poison) | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: magic(40) | Chunks: poisonous | XP: 755. 05:21 <+due> Just need greensnark to do the timidity thing :D 05:23 <+due> It's so nice to put people on ignore. 05:23 < Eronarn> due: B? S? H? 05:24 <+due> B? S? H? 05:24 < Eronarn> "it's not scary" is not a reason not to use a cap glyph 05:24 <+due> Ah. 05:24 < TGWi> K is less scary than k too 05:24 < Eronarn> heck, W 05:24 <+doy> S is scary 05:24 <+doy> (: 05:24 < TGWi> of course, Ks are way bigger 05:24 <+due> S and H are quite scary, iin my mind. 05:24 < TGWi> and S is way scarier than s 05:24 <+doy> most S are pretty dangerous when you first meet them 05:24 < TGWi> and H than h 05:24 <+doy> but yeah, B is pretty underwhelming 05:24 <+doy> also, e, t 05:24 < TGWi> what's b for? 05:24 < Eronarn> i'm not against "bigger=tougher", mind you 05:24 <+doy> are pretty scary 05:25 <+due> batty things. 05:25 < Eronarn> just... we aren't doing it right now 05:25 < TGWi> oh right 05:25 < TGWi> yeah those are a bit less scary :P 05:25 <+due> Eronarn: But I see no reason why we should keep not doing it now. ;) 05:25 <+due> Oh, what about I? 05:25 < Eronarn> due: because if we're going to constrain ourselves in design that way, we should redesign things that violate those constraints 05:25 < TGWi> ilemental 05:25 < ogaz> are there any I other than Ice Beast? 05:25 <+due> No, I mean. 05:25 <+due> What about ice beasts? 05:25 < TGWi> oh 05:25 <+due> They're the only thing on it. 05:25 < TGWi> hrm 05:26 < TGWi> well nobody knows what they look like 05:26 < ogaz> also, ice beasts are fairly formidable when you first run into them 05:26 <+due> ogaz: agree. 05:26 < Eronarn> ice beasts could be E just fine 05:26 <+due> TGWi: Apparently they're some sort of hybrid dog thing, according to the tile. 05:26 < Eronarn> [E]lementals and related creatures 05:26 < TGWi> are the tiles online somewhere? 05:26 <+due> TGWi: Yes, just linking. 05:26 < TGWi> ok 05:26 < TGWi> "h" is kind of stupid for ice beasts, however 05:26 <+doy> Eronarn: if we move ice beasts to E, no reason to not keep efreets there 05:26 < TGWi> especially since white h is taken 05:26 <+due> http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?page_id=214 05:27 < Eronarn> doy: ...?! 05:27 <+due> Hm 05:27 <+doy> TGWi: that looks more like a bear to me 05:27 < TGWi> oh wow, that site is great 05:27 <+due> Ice beasts might work on Y. 05:27 <+due> Or U. 05:27 <+due> But then overlap with polar bears. 05:27 <+doy> i don't think ice beasts should be moved to any 'natural animal' glyph though 05:27 <+doy> because they really aren't 05:28 < TGWi> uh, aren't ice beasts humanoid? 05:28 <+due> agree 05:28 < TGWi> ??ice form 05:28 < Henzell> ice form[1/1]: +20% hp, no weapons or armour save cloaks, -fire, +++cold, +pois, +5-12 AC (and additional bonus from synergy with {ozocubu's armour} ), +10,+9 slaying w/ freezing brand. 05:28 <+due> I like ice beasts on 8, personally. 05:28 < Eronarn> "kind of like a yak, but with a shaggy coat of icicles and much bigger claws" 05:28 < TGWi> oh, cloaks only 05:28 < TGWi> nevermind 05:28 <+due> Or 9. 05:28 < Eronarn> ice gargoyles :D 05:28 < TGWi> 8 looks like a snowman 05:28 <+doy> due: that could work 05:28 < Eronarn> hm... 05:28 <+doy> either 8 or 9 05:28 < Eronarn> 8 = humanoid constructs, 9 = monstrous "constructs"? 05:28 <+due> It would free up another glyph. 05:29 <+due> But I don't think I'll get away with making those changes without an FR and discussion. 05:29 < ogaz> are 9 and 6 used at all? 05:29 <+due> So, I'm going to commit these 05:29 <+due> ogaz: 6 and 7 aren't, 9 are. 05:29 <+due> @??gargoyle 05:29 < Gretell> gargoyle (9) | Speed: 10 | HD: 4 | Health: 12-32 | AC/EV: 18/6 | Damage: 10, 6, 6 | Flags: non-living, fly | Res: magic(32), elec++, poison | XP: 140. 05:29 < Eronarn> - the only thin to think of is that ice beasts are living things 05:29 < TGWi> 9 is gargoyles hi due 05:29 < ogaz> oh right 05:29 <+doy> ogaz: 9 are gargoyles, 6 are going to be demonspawn eventually 05:29 < Eronarn> currently 05:29 < ogaz> due: 7 is trees now 05:29 <+doy> and 7 are trees 05:29 <+doy> 8 are golems 05:29 <+doy> 0 is unused, but potentially confusable with O 05:30 <+due> and the orb, after all. 05:30 < Eronarn> imo, E for elementals, efreet => R (malevolent spirits), ice beast => E 05:30 < TGWi> don't most fonts have a slashed zero? 05:30 <+doy> due: oh, right 05:30 < Eronarn> vortexes => * 05:30 <+due> Giant spores -> *, also. 05:30 <+doy> Eronarn: agree with everything there, except ice beast -> 9 05:30 <+doy> due: yes, that 05:31 <+doy> along with removing giant spores from spawning in slime 05:31 < Eronarn> doy: well, i think there it's a question of 05:31 < Eronarn> what the heck *IS* an ice beast 05:31 <+due> Hm 05:31 < Eronarn> is it more of an elemental-y thing, a natural thing but made of ice, etc. 05:31 <+doy> well, ice statues can create ice beasts 05:31 <+due> doy: Agree, to be honest, I don't think they should. 05:31 < TGWi> doy: they can summon ice beasts 05:31 <+due> (re: spores) 05:31 < TGWi> doesn't mean anything 05:31 < Eronarn> also, i don't like giant spores to * "just because they explode", really 05:31 <+due> Eronarn: Them being on 'G' makes less sense. 05:31 < TGWi> eronarn: they don't fit in with G at all 05:32 < TGWi> at all 05:32 <+doy> Eronarn: G is 'eyes' everywhere else 05:32 <+due> 'They're a ... type of eyeball.'; 05:32 < Eronarn> holy shit i didn't say to keep themo n G aaaaaaaaa 05:32 < TGWi> creepiest fungi ever! 05:32 <+due> They explode more in common with * than they have eyes ll over them with G. 05:32 < Eronarn> i'd want them on f 05:32 <+doy> Eronarn: meh 05:32 <+due> meh. 05:32 < TGWi> confusing with ballistos 05:32 <+doy> f and P are immobile 05:32 < TGWi> well no it isn't 05:32 < TGWi> haha but confusing with f in general 05:32 < Eronarn> TGWi: it's all in color 05:32 <+due> "mon_glyph = shadow : black " ""??? 05:33 < TGWi> due: what? 05:33 < Kil2> anyone else think it would be cool if fedhas sunlight killed vampires instantly? =) 05:33 < TGWi> also they're pretty clearly smaller than fungi 05:33 < TGWi> kil2: no 05:33 < Eronarn> ...when has that ever influenced glyph 05:33 < TGWi> it already makes them sparkle 05:33 < Eronarn> ever 05:33 < Eronarn> steam dragons are smaller than humans iirc 05:33 <+due> Does anyone know if that works? 05:33 <+due> Kil2: Too overpowered. 05:34 < ogaz> what about sunlight damaging vampires at the end of their turns? 05:34 <+doy> due: 'black' means some sort of elemental-type color, doesn't it? 05:34 < Eronarn> well, anyways. i don't particularly care where ice beast ends up as long as it makes sense 05:34 <+doy> or is that just internally 05:34 <+due> doy: Hm, I'm not sure. 05:34 < Eronarn> in their undefined-ish state, E and 9 both equally don't make sense 05:34 < ogaz> wait, sunlight isn't actually stationary, right? 05:34 <+due> doy: MY issue is how to represent the lack of glyph. 05:34 <+due> ogaz: Not yet. 05:34 <+doy> due: _ 05:35 < Eronarn> things i am more interested in: what'll happen to Q, q, I, v 05:35 < TGWi> doy: AAH WHY IS MY ALTAR MOVING 05:35 <+doy> i have "mon_glyph = _ : p" in my rc 05:35 <+doy> which reglyphs shadows 05:35 <+due> Ah, thanks. 05:35 < ogaz> Eronarn: I'd almost like to just leave them until we want to replace them 05:35 <+due> It treats "#" as a comment. 05:36 <+doy> due: and i'm pretty sure that if you don't also recolor shadows, it'll make them flip between white and blue or something 05:36 <+due> Aaaawkward. 05:36 < TGWi> can you escape waffles? 05:36 <+doy> which i think is because they use BLACK internally as their color 05:36 <+due> doy: Yeah, darkgrey.. 05:37 <+due> Argh, why does linking take forever and a day? 05:37 < Eronarn> Import has been successfully finished, 9511 queries executed. 05:37 < Eronarn> phew 05:37 -!- Cryp71c [i=Cryp71c@c-68-53-104-165.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [] 05:37 <+due> Still linking. 05:38 * due links arms with doy, dances. 05:38 <+due> Oh, issue 05:38 <+due> vapours and air elementals on 'v' at the minute, for this commit, share colour. 05:38 <+due> @??vapour 05:38 < Gretell> vapour (#) | Speed: 10 | HD: 12 | Health: 24-60 | AC/EV: 0/12 | Flags: non-living, see invisible, lev | Res: magic(immune), elec+++, poison | XP: 901 | Sp: b.lightning. 05:38 <+due> should we make vapours white? 05:38 <+doy> yes 05:38 <+doy> or lightcyan 05:39 <+due> ooh, lightcyan 05:39 <+due> Also, insubstantial wisps are also lightgrey. 05:39 <+due> bah. 05:39 < ogaz> could just leave the glyphs untouched until we actually want to add monsters 05:39 <+doy> air elementals should be white 05:39 <+due> ogaz: Nah. 05:40 < ogaz> due: why not? 05:40 < TGWi> ogaz: we can shuffle around the glyphs without rest 05:40 < TGWi> does that work too? 05:40 < ogaz> :effort: 05:40 <+due> ogaz: Because it's easier to do it right now, and have a free glypht to suggest a monster, than to create a monster and have everyone go "but "X" already has "YZ"! no way!" 05:41 <+due> Also, the glyphs are currently confusing and non-uniform. 05:41 <+due> doy: Also, mu keeps saying that your logs have stopped. 05:41 <+doy> oh really 05:41 <+doy> hmmm 05:41 <+doy> i really should make Ashenzari handle the logging, it would make things a lot easier 05:42 <+due> yes 05:43 < TGWi> maybe you should distribute the glyphs as evenly as possible so you have an excuse to not implement monsters 05:45 <+due> no :) 05:49 <+due> @??vapour 05:49 < Gretell> vapour (#) | Speed: 10 | HD: 12 | Health: 24-60 | AC/EV: 0/12 | Flags: non-living, see invisible, lev | Res: magic(immune), elec+++, poison | XP: 901 | Sp: b.lightning. 05:51 <+due> @??shadow 05:51 < Gretell> shadow ( ) | Speed: 10 | HD: 3 | Health: 9-24 | AC/EV: 12/10 | Damage: 5(drain strength) | Flags: undead, evil, see invisible | Res: magic(20), cold+++, poison | XP: 28. 05:53 <+due> http://sprunge.us/BdRa 05:53 < Eronarn> TGWi: new policy: all glyphs must be shared by at least 12 monsters 05:53 <+due> Can I get some comments before I push? 05:55 < TGWi> are vortices insubstantial;? 05:56 <+due> Yes. 05:56 < TGWi> just making sure 05:56 <+due> All 'v' ar einsubstantial, I double checked this ":) 05:56 <+due> (though I just triple checked now after doubting myself) 05:59 -!- Ashenzari [n=Ashenzar@tozt.akrasiac.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:59 -!- Ashenzari [n=Ashenzar@tozt.akrasiac.org] has joined ##crawl-dev 05:59 <+doy> test 05:59 -!- Ashenzari [n=Ashenzar@tozt.akrasiac.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:00 <+due> you borked it (: 06:00 <+due> poor ashenzari :( 06:01 < TGWi> due: jude brown is a recommended search on google 06:01 < TGWi> just thought I'd let you know 06:03 <+due> Still linking ;( 06:06 -!- Ashenzari [n=Ashenzar@tozt.akrasiac.org] has joined ##crawl-dev 06:06 <+doy> test 06:06 <+due> Okay, yiuf will never be darkgrey! 06:06 <+due> Neither will abominations or other BLACk monsters. 06:10 -!- Ashenzari [n=Ashenzar@tozt.akrasiac.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:10 -!- Ashenzari [n=Ashenzar@tozt.akrasiac.org] has joined ##crawl-dev 06:10 <+doy> test 06:10 <+due> Hey, maybe we could rename crocodiles as dwarf crocodiles. 06:10 <+due> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarf_crocodile 06:10 < TGWi> hell yeah we could 06:11 <+due> Bit too wimpy a name, but cuuuuute. 06:11 < TGWi> and alligators -> giant dwarf crocodiles! 06:11 <+due> They're still one of the biggest early game threats. 06:11 <+due> No. 06:11 < TGWi> :P 06:11 <+due> !killsby giant lizard 06:11 < Henzell> 461 games for * (ckiller=giant lizard): 9x 78291, 8x yap, 6x sorear, 6x dpeg, 5x Archibald, 5x Nexos, 5x simul, 5x nmf, 5x mercury, 5x crawlie, 4x rob, 4x Lemuel, 4x neleai, 4x Ping, 4x Eifeltrampel, 4x Tityrus, 4x IronRobin, 4x tcircuits, 4x Pacra, 4x poop, 4x daftfad, 4x mr0t, 4x heteroy, 3x bookofjude, 3x thevalrus, 3x earlybird, 3x ronf, 3x Johan, 3x jeykey, 3x coweater, 3x TAS2012, 3x clouded... 06:11 <+due> Anyway, nobody is commenting on my commit? 06:11 -!- Ashenzari [n=Ashenzar@tozt.akrasiac.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:12 < TGWi> http://www.lpzoo.org/animals/images/facts/dwarf_crocodile.jpg 06:12 < TGWi> aww 06:12 -!- Ashenzari [n=Ashenzar@tozt.akrasiac.org] has joined ##crawl-dev 06:12 <+doy> test 06:12 < TGWi> http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/resources/jerry_gingerich/10wafricandwarfcroc-1alt.jpg/medium.jpg and I'm done 06:13 <+due> omg awww <3 06:13 < TGWi> are there any adorably ugly animals that start with q? 06:13 -!- Ashenzari [n=Ashenzar@tozt.akrasiac.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:13 -!- Ashenzari [n=Ashenzar@tozt.akrasiac.org] has joined ##crawl-dev 06:13 <+doy> test 06:14 <+due> quokka. 06:15 < TGWi> quail 06:15 < TGWi> holy shit quail 06:15 < TGWi> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/10/Brown_Quail_Dayboro_Feb06.jpg 06:15 <+due> mmmm, lunchy 06:16 < TGWi> does crawl have any birds? 06:17 <+due> not really 06:17 < ogaz> birds don't make a lot of sense in a dungeon 06:17 <+due> it will have phoenixes. 06:17 < TGWi> quokka 06:17 < TGWi> erm 06:17 < TGWi> kenku 06:17 < TGWi> why did I say quokka? 06:17 <+due> You're obsessed. 06:18 < ogaz> do butterflies spawn in shoals? maybe they can be replaced with seagulls, if they do 06:18 <+due> <3 excellent idea. 06:18 < TGWi> indeed 06:19 <+due> Okay 06:19 <+due> nomore darkgrey randoms 06:19 <+due> happy, TGWi? 06:19 < TGWi> with regards to random colours, yeah 06:26 <+due> doy: did you read the commit messags? 06:27 <+doy> due: busy at the moment, give me a minute 06:27 <+due> Okay 06:33 -!- Ashenzari [n=Ashenzar@tozt.akrasiac.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:33 -!- Ashenzari [n=Ashenzar@tozt.akrasiac.org] has joined ##crawl-dev 06:33 <+doy> test 06:33 * doy test 06:34 -!- Ashenzari [n=Ashenzar@tozt.akrasiac.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:34 -!- Ashenzari [n=Ashenzar@tozt.akrasiac.org] has joined ##crawl-dev 06:35 -!- Ashenzari [n=Ashenzar@tozt.akrasiac.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:35 -!- Ashenzari [n=Ashenzar@tozt.akrasiac.org] has joined ##crawl-dev 06:35 <+doy> test 06:35 <+doy> okay 06:35 <+doy> logging is back up, and using ashenzari 06:36 <+doy> which means it's a lot more flexible now 06:36 <+due> hooray 06:36 <+doy> but possibly more buggy, so let me know if there are issues 06:36 <+due> Okay 06:36 <+due> Need a relink for the commit message? 06:37 <+doy> nope, got it 06:38 <+doy> due: looks good to me 06:39 <+due> Okay, here goes nothing. 06:39 <+doy> also: logs should now be rotated daily 06:39 -!- eith [n=eith@86-41-101-70-dynamic.b-ras2.lmk.limerick.eircom.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:39 <+doy> which should help people who were complaining about monthly logs getting too big 06:39 <+due> Hooray 06:39 < CIA-81> due * r20efee2c8b00 /crawl-ref/source/mon-cast.cc: Don't let Mara summon a player ghost while the player is out of LOS. 06:39 < CIA-81> due * r494db5b6afa0 /crawl-ref/ (settings/052_monster_glyphs.txt source/mon-data.h): A few further (simple) glyph and colour changes. 06:39 < CIA-81> due * r58955c4e673e /crawl-ref/source/ (dungeon.cc mon-util.cc mon-util.h): Don't hand out darkgrey to 'BLACK' monsters. (TGW) 06:40 <+due> TGWi: Your name! In lights! 06:41 < TGWi> I am not fond of daily logs 06:41 < TGWi> makes it harder to search for stuff 06:47 <+doy> heh, doesn't like mirc color codes 06:47 * doy is lazy though 06:47 <+doy> deal with it later 06:49 <+due> Wooohooo, gummy babies. 06:49 <+doy> hmmm, now to see about getting my private logs back up and running... 06:49 -!- doy [n=doy@tozt.akrasiac.org] has left ##crawl-dev [] 06:49 -!- doy [n=doy@tozt.akrasiac.org] has joined ##crawl-dev 06:49 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v doy] by ChanServ 06:50 < henryci> I'm in the abyss (in .5) and I see a potion of paralysis on the same tile as a rock wall. 06:50 < TGWi> dig the wall to get to the potion 06:50 <+due> That's odd. 06:51 <+doy> oh hmmm, looks like they'd already fixed themselves on their own last night 06:51 < henryci> well the potion isn't interesting, it's the bug I'm curious about. 06:51 <+doy> oh well! 06:51 <+doy> henryci: the abyss has *all kinds* of dumb bugs like that 06:51 <+doy> from what i hear, the code is an absolute mess 06:51 < henryci> how is item generation done, is it done in the same pass as level generation? 06:52 <+doy> no idea 06:52 <+due> I've never even looked at it. 06:52 <+due> Too scary. 06:52 * doy points henryci at abyss.cc 06:52 <+doy> have fun 06:52 <+due> henryci: try generate_abyss. :) 06:54 <+due> hey cool 06:54 < henryci> ohh, learned that Xom rewards you for hanging out next to the exit until it disappears. 06:54 <+due> It never actually checks to see what type of feature it places the item on 06:54 <+due> maybe we should fix that 06:54 <+due> Oh wait, it does. Hm. 06:56 -!- Ero [n=ero@ip72-192-30-30.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined ##crawl-dev 06:57 < henryci> due where are you seeing that? 06:57 <+doy> henryci: abyss.cc:250 06:58 <+doy> it seems to set the tile explicitly to DNGN_FLOOR before even attempting to place an item 06:59 < henryci> ohh tricky, I missed that b/c I was looking for a comparison. 06:59 <+due> yeah