00:04 <+due> hi
00:04 <+due> Looks like I missed somethinng.
00:08 <+Keskitalo> Hi due!
00:08 <+Keskitalo> Morning :D
00:09 <+Keskitalo> 1am here, making a project plan for the project course
00:10 < Napkin> moin due!
00:11 <+due> You are fucking with me.
00:11 <+due> "In conclusion, Aizul is a rather unfocused unique. When I read his
00:11 <+due> description I was prepared for a strong melee character that occasionally
00:11 <+due> used a sleep attack, not the jack-of-all-trades that Aizul currently is."
00:12 -!- Cryp71c [n=Cryp71c@173-162-21-124-Nashville.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit ["Leaving"]
00:12 <+doy> due: you seem to take criticism of aizul very personally d:
00:12 < Napkin> says someone who has no clue about legendary treasure hoard! - don't listen, due ;)
00:13 < Napkin> just wasted 15 minutes of my life to adjust the bot-info website to look the same in iexplore8.exe
00:13 <+due> doy: No, I'm just rather annoyed by that comment in particular.
00:14 <+due> I still think 13 is too low and he needs to be moved to 14 or 15.
00:14 < Napkin> 13 in?
00:15 < Napkin> @?? aizul
00:15 < Gretell> Aizul (N) | Speed: 15 | HD: 14 | Health: 142 | AC/EV: 8/18 | Damage: 25 | Flags: spellcaster, see invisible | Res: magic(112), poison | Chunks: mutagenic | XP: 2427 | Sp: b.venom, blink other, sleep, poison arrow, minor healing.
00:16 <+doy> sure
00:16 < ogaz> which other uniques have a depth of 13?
00:16 <+doy> i've never actually seen aizul in a game, i just argue against weakening uniques on principle
00:16 <+doy> (:
00:16 <+due> Oh, me too.
00:16 <+due> But I already had to buff him after he got stripped of melee.
00:18 <+Keskitalo> name: caveman name_replace name_descriptor tile:mons_slave
00:18 <+due> So it's possible that I buffed him too much.
00:18 < Napkin> i think he's nice and strong and dangerous now.. for what it's worth
00:18 < Napkin> ahh.. *click* 13 as in dungeon depth..
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00:18 < Jude> Hm.
00:18 -!- due [i=jmc@wikisource/Bookofjude] has quit [Nick collision from services.]
00:18 -!- Jude is now known as due
00:19 < due> Anyway, as I was saying, I'm undecided, but I don't think heavy threats are unfair.
00:19 < due> I'm not sure there would've been any complaint if he had been on D:14 or so.
00:20 <+Keskitalo> Hmm. If you use name: in vault to define monsters, it always seems to display it over the tile.
00:20 < due> Yeah.
00:20 < due> I was debating surpressnig this.
00:21 < due> Or having a monster_props tag that lets you surpress this?
00:21 <+Keskitalo> Maybe name_descriptor should do that?
00:21 <+Keskitalo> It's done for uniques only normally I think?
00:21 < TGW> due: @d:14: I imagine there wouldn't be
00:21 <+Keskitalo> (I mean suppress it)
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00:22 < due> TGW: Exactly.
00:22 < ogaz> Just for comparison, what other uniques have a depth of around 13?
00:22 < TGW> orc is generally way easier than dungeon of the same absdepth
00:22 < due> It's only because people seem to think that Orc:4 is unreasonable.
00:22 <+Keskitalo> Other than that, I now have cavemen in the cavemen vault. Yay. :)
00:22 < due> So I'm thinking !Orc, 14-20.
00:23 <+doy> personally, i'd rather fix orc being too easy
00:23 < ogaz> I dunno, rupert shows up lair:2, that doesn't seem more unreasonable than orc:4 aizul
00:23 < due> Rupert shouldn't show up in  Lair, though.
00:23 < due> But I completely agree.
00:23 < TGW> yes he does
00:23 < ogaz> in trunk he does
00:23 < TGW> oh, misread woo
00:23 < due> Really?
00:23 < due> Oh, hm.
00:23 < due> But not very common.
00:23 < TGW> !lm uniq=rupert
00:23 < ogaz> !lg * place=lair killer=uniq s=killer
00:23 < Henzell> 4. [2010-01-03] TGW the Conjurer (L12 KoCj) killed Rupert on turn 20610. (Lair:4)
00:24 < TGW> !lm uniq=rupert -2
00:24 < due> Maybe we could have another weighter for Orc.
00:24 < Henzell> 34 games for * (place=lair killer=uniq): 7x Rupert, 5x Gastronok, 5x Maud, 4x Harold, 3x Jozef, 2x Erica, 1x Duane, 1x Snorg, 1x Agnes, 1x Learuk, the orc knight, 1x Joseph, 1x Morun, 1x Bogdan, the orc priest, 1x Michael
00:24 < Henzell> 3. [2009-12-08] TGW the Gelid (L17 KoIE) killed Rupert on turn 60637. (Swamp:4)
00:24 <+doy> !lm * place=lair noun=uniq
00:24 < Henzell> No milestones for * (place=lair noun=uniq).
00:24 < ogaz> !lm * place=lair type=uniq cv=0.6 s=uniq
00:24 < Henzell> 470 milestones for * (place=lair type=uniq cv=0.6): 135x Gastronok, 71x Prince Ribbit, 57x Harold, 50x Erica, 40x Jozef, 36x Joseph, 25x Maud, 25x Rupert, 23x Donald, 2x Ilsuiw, 1x Jessica, 1x Sonja, 1x Blork the orc, 1x Frances, 1x Aizul, 1x Kirke
00:24 < due> The wandering uniques. :)
00:25 < TGW> absdepth is sort of a flawed system, honestly
00:25 <+doy> yeah, possibly
00:26 < due> Probably part of the issue is that Orc only recetly got uniques.
00:26 < TGW> elf:1 is absdepth 10
00:26 < TGW> so is lair:1
00:26 < due> I'm going to copy the Lair weighter for uniques for Orc to reduce th chance of uniques.
00:26 < TGW> potentially
00:26 < due> TGW: Er.
00:26 < due> How?
00:26 < due> ??orc
00:26 < Henzell> orc[1/2]: By itself, a pushover; but usually accompanied by lots of friends. Has 1d6 + 4 hp.
00:26 <+doy> ??branch depths
00:26 < Henzell> branch depths[1/2]: Blade=Vault:4-6, Crypt=Vault:2-4, Elf=Orc:3-4, Hive=D:11-16, Lair=D:8-13,  Orc=D:6-11, Shoal=Lair:2-7, Slime=Lair:8-10, Snake=Lair:3-8, Swamp=Lair:2-7, Temple=D:4-7, Tomb=Crypt:2-3, Vault=D:14-19, Zot=D:27
00:26 < TGW> 3+1+6
00:26 < due> Orc is D:6.
00:27 < due> D:6 + 4 = 10.
00:27 < TGW> 6+3+1
00:27 < due> Oh, Orc:3.
00:27 < TGW> yep
00:27 < due> Yeah.
00:27 < due> It's a problematic system.
00:27 < TGW> and with lair getting uniques now...
00:27 < TGW> deep lair probably gets RIDICULOUSLY ood
00:27 < TGW> what's nikola's depth?
00:28 < due> But the weight of hte Lair balancer is eensy.
00:28 <+doy> !lm * type=uniq s=br
00:28 <+doy> !lm * type=uniq s=br cv=0.6
00:29 < due> The likelihood of uniques in Lair in trunk is much less than it is in Dungeon.
00:29 < Twinge-> IIRC they have to be 'adventerous' types of uniques, right?
00:29 < nrook> you could always make deep lair much harder :)
00:30 < due> nrook: This is intentional.
00:30 < TGW> I'm wary of making lair harder
00:30 < due> Why?
00:30 < due> Deep Lair has always been quite difficult.
00:30 < due> Hydras, blink frogs, jelly vaults.
00:30 < TGW> well, more harder
00:30 < Henzell> 314275 milestones for * (type=uniq): 254359x D, 14536x Vault, 13582x Snake, 8411x Swamp, 8219x Elf, 4881x Crypt, 1867x Zot, 1523x Hell, 1200x Slime, 843x Dis, 732x Blade, 688x Tar, 651x Lair, 606x Geh, 605x Shoal, 525x Coc, 519x Orc, 456x Tomb, 48x Temple, 24x Hive
00:30 < Henzell> 13235 milestones for * (type=uniq cv=0.6): 10150x D, 529x Vault, 521x Snake, 473x Lair, 431x Orc, 381x Shoal, 326x Elf, 157x Crypt, 109x Swamp, 65x Slime, 24x Hell, 18x Blade, 12x Tar, 12x Dis, 7x Geh, 7x Zot, 6x Coc, 3x Tomb, 3x Hive, 1x Temple
00:30 < TGW> the lair change was more of a "make shallow lair not stupid" thing
00:31 < TGW> but, I'm not positive people wouldn't just run out of exp if they get stuck in lair regularly
00:31 <+doy> people worry about xp too much
00:31 < nrook> why don't death drakes generate in lair? that might be fun.
00:31 < TGW> doy: and loot
00:31 < TGW> nrook: death drakes aren't fun
00:31 < ogaz> nrook I hate your definition of fun
00:32 < due> Lair on D:10 is equivalent depthh to D:18 or so by the end.
00:32 <+doy> TGW: you have a strange definition of fun
00:32 < Eronarn> doy: fwiw my ench proposal currently splits it into three schools, but it's not necessary that it do so :)
00:32 < TGW> irresistible, omniaccurate semi-permanent rot
00:32 <+doy> it's not irresistable
00:32 < ogaz> in trunk rN doesn't do anything against miasma
00:32 < TGW> come back when you find out what rotting resistance is
00:32 < due> It is now that it's linked to rotting.
00:33 <+doy> ogaz: oh
00:33 < due> Stasis should probably protect against rotting.
00:33 < due> Stasis of the body, etc.
00:33 <+Keskitalo> due: I had the same thought.
00:33 < TGW> stasis may be getting cluttered
00:33 <+doy> yeah
00:33 < nrook> it's a short jump to making it sustabil, then
00:33 < Eronarn> due: Only if it prevents healing
00:33 < Eronarn> too
00:33 <+doy> stasis seems to just be getting things dumped into it
00:33 <+Keskitalo> Amulet of Health? ;)
00:33 < TGW> the cloud thing, particularly, seems insane
00:33 < Eronarn> cloud thing?
00:33 < TGW> eronarn: increased duration of clouds with stasis
00:33 <+doy> stasis makes nearby clouds last longer or something
00:33 < Eronarn> ...
00:33 < Eronarn> oh my god
00:34 < Eronarn> it's Zin chaoticness all over again
00:34 < TGW> lol
00:34 < Eronarn> and people accuse ME of making things complex
00:34 <+doy> heh
00:34 < due> fatal: Invalid revision range 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000..0b05c62b4a46884adc3be328d97c1453dde127d1
00:34 < due> What does that mean?
00:34 <+doy> due: safe to ignore
00:34 < due> Okay, I was pushing a new branch.
00:34 < TGW> 'fatal' is safe to ignore?
00:34 < TGW> I'd hate to see what important errors look like
00:35 < due> TGW: That's why I asked.
00:35 <+doy> TGW: it's part of a longer script
00:35 <+Keskitalo> Eronarn: Sepaking of which, http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:misc:silverchaos
00:35 <+doy> only one of the commands in it died, and that command isn't really essential
00:35 < due> What did I miss last night?
00:35 < due> Was there rargh?
00:36 < TGW> @stasis: rSlow, -haste, -tele... that's plenty of niches
00:37 < Eronarn> Keskitalo: One thing that isn't addressed in the first one, but could be addressed: physical vs. corporeal undead
00:37 < TGW> where's the amulet fr?
00:37 < Eronarn> er, incorporeal
00:37 < Eronarn> For example, silver could hurt zombies and skeletons and wights, but not wraiths or phantoms or ghosts
00:37 < due> why not?
00:37 < Eronarn> Because those spirits have lost their bodies entirely
00:38 < due> I thought that silver was a "holy" material in the same way that holy wrath harms monsters?
00:38 < due> As in, it wasn't the actual silver, but the holiness of it.
00:38 < Eronarn> due: the goal is to make it not just "holy, but in metal form"
00:38 < due> Or unchaoticness.
00:38 < due> I didn't say that.
00:38 <+Keskitalo> Eronarn: That would be an interesting distinction to make, although I'm not sure about applying it to silver.
00:38 <+Keskitalo> due: Nope, in the proposal it's exactly the silver.
00:38 < due> Okay.
00:39 < Eronarn> Keskitalo: I think it would work pretty good with the right messages
00:39 < Eronarn> "The silver sears the (flesh/bone/skin/whatever)" of undead that actually have bodies
00:40 < Eronarn> By the way, I'm not sure about the Merfolk thing
00:40 <+Keskitalo> Eronarn: Could you add that to the ideas section?
00:40 < TGW> is shoals still an ood branch?
00:40 < Eronarn> Upon thinking about it more, I think that in flavor they're described as being equally at home on land or in the water
00:40 < due> TGW: No, it's been heavily nerfed.
00:40 < TGW> due: didn't look that heavy to me
00:41 < TGW> javelineers to reasonable, and impalers -3 ev -3 dam or something?
00:41 < TGW> brb changelog
00:41 < TGW> oh, -5 EV -2 dam... and turtles and snakes weren't in when I tried
00:41 < due> They're uncommon.
00:41 < TGW> cool
00:42 < due> And more heavily nerfed.
00:42 < due> Okay, I leave.
00:42 < syllogism> why is this acid blob cyan, maybe it's one of greensnark's settings :P
00:43 < Eronarn> Edited in comment
00:43 <+Keskitalo> Eronarn: Thanks.
00:43 < TGW> syllogism: made room for merged slimes
00:44 < Eronarn> Keskitalo: Are you the one handling Zin reform?
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00:45 <+Keskitalo> Eronarn: No.
00:45 <+Keskitalo> Last I know dpeg's handling the design side and is hoping dolorous to do the code.
00:49 < Eronarn> oh, okay
00:49 <+Keskitalo> Eronarn: There's an M_INSUBSTANTIAL flag, so the distinction can be tweaked in quite easily.
00:49 < Eronarn> huh, neat
00:50 <+Keskitalo> Searching through mon-data.h though, it's applied in interesting places.. I recall it makes sticky flame not stick.
00:51 <+Keskitalo> Silver should still apply to orbs of fire even though they are insubstantial.. they're a good target for it.
00:51 <+Keskitalo> But they're like "pure chaos" or so, not just undead spirits. :)
00:52 < Eronarn> i never liked orbs getting mutation
00:52 < Eronarn> it feels totally random
00:52 <+Keskitalo> I really like it. It makes them strange and omnious.
00:52 < Eronarn> "shit, we need mutators in zot"
00:53 < Eronarn> but in general, flags/stats of monsters need work
00:53 < Eronarn> i want to make a list of things that need to be fixed, then go through to each monster and fix them
00:53 < Eronarn> because there are sooo many things that are slightly off that comprehensive reform is the best way to do it
00:54 < gunofdis> I've been thinking the same thing for a while
00:56 < gunofdis> I think the problem is going to be deciding when to do it.  Might not be a bad idea to do it the same version that the big round of melee tweaking happens, so that the numbers on both sides can be adjusted together.
00:56 <+Keskitalo> Insubstance is checked for: _mon_exposed_in_cloud, mon_can_be_slimified, monsters::res_sticky_flame, applying petrification, drinking potions and getting caught in nets.
00:58 <+Keskitalo> It's a pretty reasonable set, and I don't think reviewing it would overlap a lot with other agendas?
01:03 < due> Orbs being able to mutate is basically power creep, in my opinion.
01:03 < due> It's annoying and requires regular amulet shuffling.
01:03 < due> It's interesting, yeah.
01:03 < due> But only for the first time.
01:06 <+doy> silver shouldn't have anything to do with holiness
01:06 <+doy> i think silver only affecting corporeal undead is good
01:06 <+doy> would be better to make it only affect undead with bodies that used to be alive
01:07 <+doy> but that's probably harder, and might just be more confusing
01:07 < due> So, is it going to be an "undead affecting" substance or a "chaos affecting" substance?
01:08 <+doy> i thought the proposal was for it to affect things that aren't in their natural form
01:08 <+Keskitalo> doy: Correct.
01:08 < due> Hm.
01:08 <+doy> this is most commonly caused by chaotic things, but doesn't have to be
01:09 <+Keskitalo> due: The Page: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:misc:silverchaos :)
01:09 < due> Are we trying to make it too expansive?
01:09 <+doy> i don't think so
01:09 < due> I mean--it doesn't *have* to affect the undead.
01:09 <+doy> well, sure
01:09 < due> Also, I am undecided.
01:09 <+doy> there's a decent amount of fuzziness around stuff like that
01:09 <+Keskitalo> due: It's dropping nearly all demons already.. it might not cover enough things to be interesting. :)
01:09 < due> Should the Apis bull be a unique?
01:10 <+Keskitalo> Some points of interest about insubstance: phantoms aren't, giant spores are.
01:10 <+doy> well
01:11 <+doy> things like this should be fixed
01:11 <+doy> (:
01:11 < due> Agree.
01:11 <+Keskitalo> I somehow feel there might be a commit message about the giant spore..
01:12 < gunofdis> giant spores are incorporeal? That seems odd
01:12 <+Keskitalo> Should fake R be insubstantial?
01:12 < due> Yes, as they're illusions.
01:12 < due> Fake Mara aren't because they're very *good* illusions.
01:12 <+Keskitalo> Then we get to 'W'
01:13 <+doy> wraiths and wights no, spectral things yes?
01:13 <+Keskitalo> Currently: only shadow wraiths are insubstantial. I'm thinking all except wights should be. (I somehow recall wights are fleshy, but wraiths aren't.)
01:13 <+Keskitalo> Spectral things certainly should be insub.
01:13 <+doy> could be
01:14 < due> Did David leave?
01:14 <+doy> yes
01:14 < due> I thought wraiths left corpses that had hte experience effect?
01:14 <+doy> due: that's nethack
01:14 <+doy> and even in nethack, the corpses give 0 nutrition
01:14 < due> ;)
01:15 <+doy> (although you can still choke on them)
01:17 <+Keskitalo> Chaos spawn is insub, which seems a little wrong.. sounds fleshy by the description.
01:18 < due> Okay, can we motion to close the Sourceforge tracker?
01:18 <+doy> yes
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01:18 < due> Because it's impossible to track stuff.
01:19 <+Keskitalo> Yes. There's a todo list on the mailing list - we need a bit of help documentation & redirection messages and so.
01:20 <+Keskitalo> I'm sorry, I've dropped the ball on that.
01:20 < due> The documentation on Mantis is certainly better than the documentation on sourceforge, at least at the minute.
01:21 < due> We didn't remove the DID_DEDICATED_BUTCHERY enum?
01:21 <+Keskitalo> I left it there, I didn't want to break anything. :)
01:22 <+doy> insubstantial seems to mean that they don't show up as disturbances in clouds, they have no body weight, leave no corpses, resist sticky flame, can't be petrified, can't drink potions, can't be slimified, and can't be caught in nets
01:23 <+Keskitalo> doy: I did a list already. :) I did miss body weight and leaving corpses though!
01:23 <+doy> ah
01:23 <+doy> (:
01:23 < due> Bugger, I broke Poison Weapon.
01:23 < due> Which means that, presumably, I broke venom branded weapons as well.
01:35 <+Keskitalo> Added: phantom, flayed ghost, fake rakshasa, wraith, freezing wraith, spectral warrior, spectral thing. Removed: giant spores (?), chaos spawn.
01:36 <+Keskitalo> Sticky flame won't pwn freezing wraiths no more! (Of course, all the other fire conjurations still will.)
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01:48 < Eronarn> gunofdis: The way I want to do it is build up a list of things that need to be changed until .6 is almost ready to go, but *keeping an eye to the future* - that is, if people are considering things for .7, they should include them in that run
01:49 < Eronarn> Then set up a working group for it - X number of people who agree to sit on Y days for Z hours at a time and simply run through the list, seeing whether they agree with each other as to which flags/values a given monster should have
01:50 < Eronarn> Also, some things could be changed to have multiple values that are currently yes/no
01:50  * Keskitalo kicks CIA-81 
01:50 < CIA-81> ow
01:51 < Eronarn> For example, we could have some things that are insubstantial because they're ghostly and some things that are insubstantial because they're gaseous. Nothing uses that currently, but there are proposals for spells that move clouds around
01:52 <+Keskitalo> Heh, blowing some gaseous monsters around would be fun.
01:53 < Eronarn> yes :) Wisps!
01:53 < Eronarn> This would also permit airstrike to function differently for creatures made out of gas
01:53 < Eronarn> (could be that it has no effect, could be that it is even more damaging. Not sure which is more interesting.)
01:59 < gunofdis> noneffect would make it less of a smite clone, but it would deprive air elementalists of one of their very few useable attack spells in certain areas
02:00 < CIA-81> Keskitalo * r317d05294c07 /crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: Mark several befitting monsters as insubstantial, remove the flag from two.
02:00 < gunofdis> they're about the only people who can get rid off wisps quickly
02:03 < gunofdis> @?? insubstantial wisp
02:03 < Gretell> insubstantial wisp (p) | Speed: 10 | HD: 6 | Health: 6-18 | AC/EV: 20/20 | Damage: 12(blink) | Flags: non-living, lev | Res: magic(immune), fire++, cold++, elec++, poison++ | XP: 151.
02:04 <+sorear> vehumites can do it pretty well
02:05 <+sorear> wisps are generally less of an issue for spellcasters since binary monster resistances were axed in 0.5
02:05 <+sorear> *0.4
02:05 <+sorear> even with Fire++, they have so little HP that 2-4 fireballs will take one out
02:05 <+sorear> (you have level 6 hungerless, right?)
02:06 < gunofdis> yeah, but that's 2-4 turns and 12-24 mp, vs 1 turn and 4 mp
02:06 < gunofdis> and vehumet help you if you have a spell that actually needs to roll to hit
02:07 < gunofdis> they're the only prominently displayed gaseous creature I could come up with off the top of my head
02:07 <+sorear> smoke demons
02:08 < gunofdis> interesting, didn't realize those were actually gas bags
02:08 <+sorear> neither did I, until somebody slapped the insubstantial flag on them
02:09 <+sorear> gunofdis: the vehumet statement and the resistance statement were not actually supposed to be connected
02:09 <+sorear> isky blast is extremely effective on wisps
02:09 <+sorear> it hits them > 2/3 of the time and usually oneshots
02:10 < gunofdis> would have figured the 20 AC would matter more than that
02:10 <+sorear> note that in 0.6, isky blast has been moved out of annihilations and into the most common book in the game
02:10 < gunofdis> yeah, saw that
02:11 < gunofdis> gonna make blaster mages a lot more uniform
02:12 < gunofdis> ok, I guess 2d28 might have a pretty good chance of instakilling a wisp
02:14 < gunofdis> how much of BEAM_ICE is resistable again? 25%?
02:14 < gunofdis> (looking at the other level 4 blaster spell)
02:18 < gunofdis> yep, 25%
02:18 < Eronarn> some of the demons have pretty weird descriptions
02:18 < Eronarn> i think one of them is just a big smoky blob
02:18 < Eronarn> er, shadowy
02:18 < gunofdis> does monster resistance work the same as player resistance?
02:19 < Eronarn> sorear: did you read the scales thing? Also, did dpeg talk to you about the conflicting DS mut thing?
02:20 <+sorear> gunofdis: monster resistance works the same way as 0.5 player resistance
02:21 <+sorear> when we nerfed player resistance in 0.6, we made it asymmetric to not affect monsters :(
02:21 < gunofdis> bleh
02:21 <+sorear> exception: a monster with +++ is actually immune
02:21 <+sorear> Eronarn: no, no
02:21 < nrook> why didn't you nerf monster resistances? :(
02:22 <+sorear> I have no idea
02:22 < gunofdis> hmm, so the average shot of Icicle will kill the average wisp, though actually landing that thing might be fun
02:23 < ogaz> yeah, that was my experience in 0.5
02:23 < Eronarn> sorear: scales proposal is on DS wiki page. Conflicting DS mut thing: dpeg says it's ok if we implement two mutations that would be contradictory - say, if i had my own fire mut in addition to Fire I/II - if a given DS can't get both of them. Then get feedback about which version players liked more.
02:24 <+sorear> Eronarn: Fire I/II already are contradictory (well, except for being bugged)
02:24 < Eronarn> (though, obviously, this is contingent on you actually feeling like implementing both; it's your prerogative to say that we should hammer it out on the wiki first if you'd prefer)
02:25 < Eronarn> it could come up in other places too though - like I think there are multiple stealth mutation proposals
02:27 < gunofdis> I always found it funny that there's dozens of +ac mutations but only one +5 ev one
02:29 < Eronarn> gunofdis: well, it's hard to justify mutations that make you dodgier... there are tons of physical features that would increase your AC, not that many that make you harder to hit, other than straight-up boosting your reaction speed
02:31 < gunofdis> of course, by "tons of physical features" you mean skin growths of various pigmentation :P
02:31 < Eronarn> sure :)
02:31 < Eronarn> my proposal tries to make them a little more interesting though
02:32 < Eronarn> gunofdis: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:species:demonspawn#full_implementations see the Dynamic Scales heading
02:33 < Eronarn> i also propose Jiyvaite "scales" made out of slime/eyeballs on another page
02:35 < gunofdis> I was just about to rail on the current implementation where flavor and function were melded, but it looks like you've already got that covered
02:36 < Eronarn> well, some types of flavor/function would be, but only as much as was desired / where it was reasonable
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03:05 <+pointless_> Weird stealth is showing up in the right hand column of 'm' 
03:06 <+doy> yeah, jpeg moved that to make the columns more even
03:06 <+doy> since we lost a bunch of skills in the rc reworking
03:07 < Eronarn> a bunch? only like... darts, right?
03:07 <+doy> shrug!
03:07 <+doy> i don't remember what the final decision was
03:08 < Eronarn> yeah, that's what i was hoping to find out :)
03:08 <+doy> (:
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04:08 <+sorear> doy: IIRC jpeg wanted an extra row for some ui frill
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04:26 < due> Darts and Div.
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04:30 <+doy> oh yeah, forgot about div
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04:31 <+due> Yeah, it's easily forgotten :)
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06:26 <+greensnark> due: Mara splat :P
06:26 <+greensnark> !tell due !lg mummy Abyss -tv
06:26 < Henzell> greensnark: OK, I'll let due know.
06:27 <+doy> !lg mummy Abyss -tv
06:27 < Henzell> 4. MUMMY, XL17 DSCK, T:77746 requested for FooTV.
06:28 <+greensnark> !tell due Mara could avoid Mislead if there are no monsters around for it to work with
06:28 < Henzell> greensnark: OK, I'll let due know.
06:30 <+doy> hmmm, do player illusions retain hasted state?
06:30 <+doy> from if the player was hasted?
06:30 <+greensnark> I think they're player base speed
06:30 <+doy> how was that illusion getting so many hits in?
06:30 <+doy> oh, he was slowed, wasn't he
06:30 <+greensnark> He was slowed from berserk
06:30 <+greensnark> And for some reason didn't notice it :P
06:30 <+doy> yeah
06:31 <+doy> that was just sloppy playing there d:
06:31 <+doy> kept taking paths that would let the ghost get more hits too
06:31 <+greensnark> Yes, it was a case of "if I type really fast, I can get away!"
06:32 <+greensnark> I do that sometimes myself :P
06:32 <+doy> (:
06:33 <+due> Oooh
06:33 < Henzell> due: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them.
06:33 <+due> I can't watch right now.
06:34 <+due> greensnark: I'm not sure where the actual code is that decides whehter or not a monster casts a spell.
06:34 <+due> There's already a "Do nothing" return statement that triggers if the player is already mislead and above a threshhold of it.
06:34 <+doy> i think mara's plenty tough as it is d:
06:34 <+due> Which prevents mislead spam.
06:34 <+due> !killsby -i mara
06:34 < Henzell> One game for * (ikiller=mara): 1x N78291
06:34 <+due> What happened?
06:34 <+due> !lg mummy Abyss
06:34 < Henzell> 4. MUMMY the Impaler (L17 DSCK), worshipper of Lugonu, succumbed to poison in the Abyss on 2010-01-15, with 181951 points after 77746 turns and 11:24:04.
06:34 <+due> What, poison :|
06:35 <+due> Argh, that's not fair.
06:35 <+doy> poisoned by his illusion
06:35 <+doy> since he was wielding a poison weapon
06:35 <+greensnark> due: There's an ms_waste_of_time that you can use to suppress spells that don't help
06:35 <+greensnark> You can also bail in the actual casting code, but if you bail there, the monster loses a turn :P
06:35 <+doy> !lm * uniq=Mara
06:35 < Henzell> 34. [2010-01-15] hyperbolic the Conjurer (L19 HaWz) killed Mara on turn 47081. (Crypt:3)
06:36 <+greensnark> Mara was also wielding a demon trident of venom, so there was a lot of poison going around
06:36 < ogaz> I think what stops mara from getting a lot of kills is that he can't suddenly deal 70+ damage out of nowhere
06:36 <+due> Oooh really?
06:36 <+due> That's what I mean.
06:37 <+due> !tell due ms_waste_of_time
06:37 < Henzell> due: OK, I'll let due know.
06:37 <+doy> what's ikiller?
06:37 <+due> !lg * ikiller=Mara
06:37 < Henzell> due: You have 3 messages. Use !messages to read them.
06:37 < Henzell> 1. N78291 the Unseen (L18 NaEE), worshipper of Fedhas, blasted by N78291's illusion (stone arrow) (summoned by Mara) on Shoal:1 on 2010-01-13, with 175744 points after 70067 turns and 4:08:08.
06:37 <+due> ikiller checks the summon chain
06:37 <+due> !lg * killer=Pikel s=killer
06:37 <+doy> ah, right
06:37 < Henzell> 19 games for * (killer=Pikel): 19x Pikel
06:37 <+due> !lg * ikiller=Pikel s=killer
06:37 < Henzell> 51 games for * (ikiller=Pikel): 32x a slave, 19x Pikel
06:37 <+due> Go slaves, go slaves!
06:37 <+due> <3 slaves
06:37 <+due> @??pikel
06:37 < Gretell> Pikel (K) | Speed: 10 | HD: 6 | Health: 40 | AC/EV: 4/12 | Damage: 9 | Res: magic(24) | Chunks: poisonous | XP: 983.
06:38 <+greensnark> Pikel is a delicious bundle of xp :P
06:38 <+due> That's probably a slightly more reasonable XP.
06:38 <+greensnark> Oh, he got reduced :/
06:38 <+due> greensnark: How would I go about writing pathfinding code that can be used to keep bands together?
06:38 <+due> Specifically, so that Dowan and Duvessa won't leave the screen--or that they'll come back to each other.
06:38 <+due> And likewise Pikel can't be dragged away from his slaves.
06:38 <+greensnark> jpeg had A* pathfinding code for patrolling monsters
06:39 <+due> A* pathfinding code?
06:39 <+greensnark> You could just check if the monster is at a certain threshold away from their band leader and if so use the patrolling code to go back to the leader
06:39 <+due> Good idea.
06:39 <+doy> someone had a cool idea earlier that pikel should be able to displace his slaves
06:39 <+greensnark> Assuming you don't mind them magically knowing where the leader is
06:39 <+doy> "pikel shoves the slave into battle"
06:39 <+due> doy: Doable
06:39 <+doy> or so
06:39 <+due> I at least want Dowan and Duvessa to have this.
06:39 <+doy> greensnark: that's probably okay for d&d
06:39 <+due> They're psychically linked.
06:39 <+greensnark> Sounds easy then :)
06:40 <+due> Though...
06:40 <+doy>     // Eventually, we'll probably want to be able to have monsters
06:40 <+doy>     // learn which of their elemental bolts were resisted and have those
06:40 <+doy>     // handled here as well. - bwr
06:40 <+doy> what
06:40 <+due> Would that mean that if you wake up Dowan, and then lead him away, he'll eventually give up and return to Duvessa?
06:40 <+greensnark> due: You'd set the conditions, obviously :)
06:40 <+due> Ahh
06:40 <+greensnark> Maybe only go back if there's no visible foe
06:41 <+greensnark> Or maybe go back if more then X distance away
06:41 <+greensnark> *than
06:41 <+due> Is storing a copy of the band leader in monster props an unreasonable idea--at least for Dowan/Duvessa/Pikel+slaves?
06:41 <+greensnark> Why do you need a copy of the band leader?
06:42 <+greensnark> In related news, I have still not met D&D :P
06:47 <+due> So that you can work out where the band leader is?
06:47 <+due> Otherwise you have to use a monster_iterator to get their position.
06:48 <+greensnark> No, you can save the band leader's number in props
06:48 <+greensnark> If you save a copy, it won't know the current position of the real monster
06:49 <+due> Yeah, that's what I meant.
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09:28 < Jude_> Okay, I suppose I should fix ammunition brands.
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09:53 < due> Hi sorear_.
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09:54 <+sorear> hi
09:54 < due> Freenode is being assful.
10:07 < Napkin> agreed - at least from here too
10:07 < Napkin> Hi sorear 
10:08 < due> Feh, lag.
10:11 < CIA-81> haranp * r03588849963b /crawl-ref/source/ (6 files): Merge Firing and Aim lines, per dcss:messagespam.
10:11 < due> I keep getting huge bursts of lag.
10:11 < due> Anyone else?
10:11 <+sorear> I was
10:11 <+sorear> then I changed servers
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10:12 < due> I did as well
10:13 < due> About half an hour ago
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10:13 < due> Hi haranp.
10:13 < CIA-81> due * r9e2960c3a806 /crawl-ref/source/item_use.cc: Fix bugs involving branded ammunition and their messages.
10:13 < haranp> hi
10:14 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v due] by ChanServ
10:14 <+due> Can we *please* close the blasted sourceForge tracker/
10:14 <+due> I never check it :(
10:14 < haranp> ditto
10:14 <+sorear> hello haranp
10:14 < haranp> direction() is a monster
10:15 <+sorear> so uh
10:15 <+sorear> what's up with nubinia
10:15 <+sorear> (do we have a resolution for You are insane.?)
10:15 <+due> With regards to?
10:17 <+sorear> his latest SF FR
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10:17 <+due> @??tormenter
10:17 < Gretell> unknown monster: "tormenter"
10:18 <+due> ... the... fuck?
10:18 <+due> Oh, it's a joke/play on Brands?
10:20 <+due> @??tormentor
10:20 < Gretell> tormentor (3) | Speed: 13 | HD: 7 | Health: 21-56 | AC/EV: 12/12 | Damage: 8, 8 | Flags: demonic, evil, fly | Res: magic(56), fire, poison | XP: 412 | Sp: pain, torment symbol.
10:35 < CIA-81> due * rdccba09075e4 /crawl-ref/source/ (dat/uniques.des mon-spll.h): Tweak Aizul's spells and placement slightly.
10:35 <+due> Lag, 30.11. Delightful.
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10:49 <+sorear> 01:47 < gutt> I did change one key in crawl.
10:49 <+sorear> 01:47 < gutt> I set auto explore to /
10:49 <+sorear> 01:47 < gutt> can't really see how others can do it differently, to be honest
10:49 <+sorear> 01:47 < gutt> Movement has to be done with keypad.
10:49 <+sorear> 01:47 < gutt> and pressing o to explore...
10:50 <+sorear> 01:49 < gutt> I officially reccomend that the crawl team change the default o  to /
11:04 <+due> ...
11:06 <+due> Where is this?
11:06 <+due> Movement "has to be done with keypad"? Since when?
11:06 <+due> o is considerably more convenient than / for vikeys.
11:06 < Twinge> He's not meaning literally.  It was over in #adom.  I think the majority of players probably use the numpad.
11:06 < Twinge> Having both work for auto-explore might be an option; seems unlikely it'd be best to simply move o to /.
11:06 <+due> Why make it an option? Rebinding it to / is simple.
11:06 <+due> And don't we use / for stuff anyway?
11:06 <+due> Or is that \?
11:08 < Mu_> \ for known items
11:08 <+kilobyte> for people using a regular (non-laptop) keyboard, o is significantly better.  I have my right hand on the keypad and the left hand on the letter part, o is easy to access while / is at an extremity of that area.
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11:09 <+by> yay for direction() cleanup
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11:09 < Mu_> i have autoexplore mapped to numpadplus
11:09 <+kilobyte> I don't know the ergonomics (or rather, the lack of them) of a laptop keyboard.  But hey, laptops are an X unto Xom.
11:09 <+due> kilobyte: Laptop keyboard o is also better.
11:10 <+kilobyte> Mu_: now that may be a good idea
11:10 <+due> I'm also so used to vikeys that I find the numpad annoying.
11:12 <+kilobyte> there's a bug with macros that makes vi keys an abomination if you try to redefine them
11:13 <+kilobyte> ^DmlE -- this should make 'l' do nothing.  Yet if you press it and hold, you'll still be walking slowly.
11:13 <+due> Nice.
11:14 <+kilobyte> vi keys are in a perfect position to be used for conjuration macros, except this bug makes them unreliable
11:15 <+kilobyte> I guess same applies to other keys.  Like, if you use vi keys to actually walk, you have arrows left unused.
11:16 < ortoslon> i use transposed numpad uiojklm,. instead of vi-keys
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11:30 <+kilobyte> is there any reason to ask for confirmation when reading an identified tome of destruction?
11:35 < Napkin> not, unless it's auto-inscribed with !r ?
11:42 < syllogism> I left OOD on a level for 10+k turns and it was there when I came back :P
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11:50 <+greensnark> rob in Shoals <3
11:51 < syllogism> the alligator snapping turtles are pretty nasty due to the water movement speed
11:52 < syllogism> I cheated and did it on xl20 or so and they still hurt
11:52 < syllogism> and I had boots of lev
11:52 <+greensnark> Well, I pegged them at 8 precisely for the water movement speed :P
11:53 <+greensnark> How many did you meet?
11:53 < syllogism> 4 on the last level
11:53 <+greensnark> Ooh
11:53 <+greensnark> I could just make them rarer
11:53 <+greensnark> Weakening them further would take them into lesser turtle territory :P
11:54 <+greensnark> Or, ugh, drop them to speed 7
11:55 <+greensnark> They'd be really lame at speed 7 :P
11:55 <+greensnark> Honorary slugs :P
11:55 < syllogism> don't drop speed
11:56 <+greensnark> Ha, heteroy wants to know when Shoals will be brought into line with Swamp
11:56 <+greensnark> Should be other way around :P
11:56 < syllogism> where's this, wiki?
11:56 <+greensnark> ##crawl
11:56 <+greensnark> scrollbac
11:56 < syllogism> maybe the low tide should last a bit longer
11:56 <+greensnark> I have Shoals hightlighted in scrollback :P
11:57 < syllogism> then again I never bothered manipulating it so maybe it does :P
11:57 <+greensnark> The tide doesn't actually slow down much around high/low-tide like the real tide would
11:57 <+greensnark> I found it was too hard to notice unless I made it slow down a lot
12:13 < CIA-81> greensnark * refe1b2f075de /crawl-ref/source/ (mon-pick.cc religion.cc): Make alligator snapping turtles rarer.
12:13 < Napkin> is it worth complaining about centauer warrior (or any other fast shooting unit) with arrows of dispersal?
12:13 < Napkin> hi greensnark :)
12:13 < syllogism> greensnark: does "oFaith make penance last 30% longer
12:13 < syllogism> napkin: no :P
12:13 < syllogism> well they might make them rarer
12:13 < syllogism> but that's the whole point
12:14 <+greensnark> syllogism: No
12:14 < syllogism> just wait for them around a corner and they wont shoot at you
12:14 <+greensnark> It does not affect penance at all
12:14 < Napkin> lol @ corner
12:15 < syllogism> didn't you say it would
12:15 < syllogism> not that I'm complaining :P
12:15 < syllogism> rob is using all his curare on ilsuiw :P
12:15 <+greensnark> Oh, if you do naughty things while worshipping a god, you get extra penance, yeah
12:16 <+greensnark> I thought you meant putting on "oFaith while already under penance
12:16 < syllogism> but not if I renounce?
12:16 <+kilobyte> Napkin: centaur warriors don't spawn until quite late depths, so by that time there are plenty of ways to deal with them.  It's not chaos with 1/19 polymorph 1/19 banishment.
12:16 <+greensnark> Actually, I can't recall, let me check :P
12:16 < syllogism> what if I take it off, renounce, switch god and put it back
12:17 < Napkin> well, just for the record - i fully agree with Omnijim/guy's post to the mailinglist about this "dispersal"
12:18 <+greensnark> syllogism: You'd be safe :P
12:18 < syllogism> greensnark: Okawaru IS pretty dumb after all :P
12:18 <+due> Dispersal should be made slightly rarer, anyway.
12:18 <+by> so curare doesn't have the same HD check as other needles?
12:18 < syllogism> not yet
12:18 <+due> by: Not yet.
12:19 <+kilobyte> it would be worthless otherwise
12:19 <+greensnark> And excommunication while wearing "oFaith does not incur extra penance
12:19 <+greensnark> by: You killed Ilsuiw :/
12:19 <+kilobyte> currently curare is the only needle that's useful late game, except for dedicated hunters
12:19 <+by> greensnark: yes, shouldn't I have?
12:20 <+greensnark> I'm just disappointed that she went so tamely :P
12:20 <+kilobyte> well, somewhat useful, I for one don't bother with it after mid-lair
12:20 <+due> kilobyte: Paralysis is useless?
12:20 <+kilobyte> due: you need 9529837529387 skill to use it
12:20 <+due> Oh, dedicated hunters, right.
12:21 <+greensnark> rob's bazaar looks like a Pan level
12:22 <+due> Which one is it?
12:22  * due tunes in
12:22 <+greensnark> Goldfish pond in the middle
12:22 <+due> ah, not the river one
12:23 <+due> Message on top looks odd.
12:23 <+due> Why is the electricaleel on dry land?
12:24 <+greensnark> Tide going out offlevel doesn't move water creatures with it
12:24 <+greensnark> That should be fixed
12:24 <+due> @??merfolk javelineer
12:24 < Gretell> merfolk javelineer (m) | Speed: 10 | HD: 13 | Health: 65-91 | AC/EV: 0/14 | Damage: 16, 17 | Flags: amphibious | Res: magic(69) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 1208.
12:24 <+sorear> wow, are you kidding me
12:24 <+due> Berserkitis?
12:24 <+sorear> those things suck now
12:25 < syllogism> is levitating over water still an effective way to deal with penance
12:25 < syllogism> just making sure before I waste 30+k turns doing that :P
12:25 <+greensnark> I bet it still is
12:26 <+due> Let's fix that right now!
12:26 < syllogism> should be trivial
12:26 <+due> greensnark: http://sprunge.us/dSOU
12:27 <+greensnark> due: The goldfish vaults? :)
12:28 <+due> Heh, no, proof of concept.
12:28 <+due> ie, I got it working, finally.
12:28 <+greensnark> Oh, those are subvaults?
12:28 <+due> Yes.
12:28 <+greensnark> Cool!
12:30 <+kilobyte> syllogism: why don't you eat the bees?  You're wasting permafood for no reason...
12:32 < syllogism> because i've no gourmand and I'd be hungry all the time
12:32 < syllogism> and there's infinite permafood in pan
12:32 <+kilobyte> the bees come to you all the time too...
12:33 <+kilobyte> I don't get why Oka wrath was nerfed recently, it was already among mildest ones.
12:33 <+greensnark> DD vampiric draining healing looks pretty grindy to me :P
12:34 <+greensnark> rob has a pet snail he keeps around to top up his hp :P
12:34 <+kilobyte> greensnark: because it is
12:34 < syllogism> kilobyte: you mean by making them summoned?
12:34 <+by> greensnark: it's awful; first and last game I'm doing this
12:34 <+kilobyte> syllogism: yeah, you don't have to bother fighting them anymore, just walk away
12:35 <+greensnark> Players used to milk Okie summons :P
12:35 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * rb137892e7067 /crawl-ref/source/directn.cc: Fix tiles compilation.
12:35 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r54c9e3877a8d /crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-mon/unique/pikel.png: Replace Pikel's black "markings" with darkgreen ones.
12:35 <+greensnark> Should just make his wrath drop more slowly
12:35 < syllogism> kilobyte: the goal was to prevent scumming okawaru wrath for xp/items 
12:35 <+due> they should be summoned mighted and hasted, then.
12:35 <+greensnark> To compensate for the things being summons
12:35 <+greensnark> due: Or that, although you'll have to be careful not to go to Trog-like wrath which just kills players outright :P
12:35 < syllogism> can't you make them like royal jelly spawns
12:36 <+by> could give them might and haste potions?
12:36 <+greensnark> Unhealing?
12:36 <+greensnark> Oh, royal jelly spawns with no xp
12:36 <+greensnark> Yeah, could do taht
12:36 <+due> Could make Oka wrath that he steals one of his  god gifts back?
12:36 <+greensnark> Have to be no corpses too :P
12:36 <+greensnark> due: Nice!
12:36 < syllogism> that's too mean :P
12:36 <+kilobyte> Oka's spawns have no items worth grinding by that time.  Unlike, say, TSO.
12:36 < syllogism> what if he takes these boots of lev? :P
12:37 <+greensnark> syllogism: That would be just hilarious
12:37 <+due> I would laugh.
12:37 <+greensnark> Can Maurice steal equipped armour?
12:37 <+due> Weapon, yes.
12:37 <+kilobyte> if you can handle multiple angels/Daevas (which are a significant threat even to an endgame char), you'll be swimming in eudemon blades and holy scourges
12:37 <+due> Not sure about armour.
12:38 <+greensnark> And can Xom give you hooves while you're levitating
12:39 <+due> I hope so
12:39 <+kilobyte> greensnark: yes, but unless you're in penance or boring, he'll lifesave you afterwards
12:39 <+kilobyte> greensnark: but when waiting out wrath, you _are_ boring
12:40 <+greensnark> Oh, the lifesave is guaranteed?
12:40 <+kilobyte> greensnark: lifesave due to direct acts of Xom, yes.
12:41 <+greensnark> Ah
12:42 < syllogism> 163557 | Hive:2  | I think next he'll mollify
12:42 < syllogism> 163559 | Hive:2  | Was forgiven by Okawaru
12:42 < syllogism> pretty accurate :P
12:42 <+greensnark> :P
12:43 < Ashenzari> Lair level layout sometimes looks like the Vaults (242d6f4b) (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=429) by jpeg
12:43 <+greensnark> What?
12:44 <+greensnark> Lair looks like vaults?! This I got to see
12:44 <+kilobyte> a possible fix would be to undo the penance reduction if there's no way to place spawns, but then people would be able to wait just next to land and step away to wait for the spawns to unsummon
12:44 <+due> It can now, I think, get city_level
12:44 <+due> We  should limit the plans it can get
12:45 < syllogism> there's really no easy fix unless you somehow make sure all the spawns get placed and make them permanent
12:45 <+greensnark> It got the hollow level plan, whatever that is
12:45 <+kilobyte> wait, why is she a pig? :p
12:46 <+due> Player doll change?
12:48 <+sorear> Okawaru should give his summons lev boots
12:55 <+kilobyte> sorear: how's your savefile rewrite doing?  There's a couple of save bugs that would be moot with your system, is there any point in saving them for 0.6?
12:56 <+kilobyte> s/saving/fixing/, duh
12:57 <+due> New post on the CDO blog! http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=225
13:01 <+kilobyte> Kirke a "goddess"?  Wasn't she just a nymph?
13:01 <+due> She was in my head, I'm pretty sure
13:01 <+due> let me check Wikipedia
13:01 <+kilobyte> otherwise, a good post, with some great lines!
13:02 <+due> That may be a fandom thing
13:02 <+kilobyte> hmm, Wikipedia indeed says that, but my books disagree
13:02 <+due> Hm, apparently she is not always a minor goddess. 
13:02 <+due> What about demigoddess?
13:02 <+kilobyte> right, it may depend on which version of the myth you read
13:03 <+due> Oh, no, that wouldn't work.
13:03 <+due> Oh, it would work.
13:03 <+kilobyte> our description is just "A beautiful enchantress."
13:03 <+due> Yeah.
13:06 <+sorear> kilobyte: I've run into some interesting questions... I was fixating on the local user case, and my plans don't work quite so well for the servers
13:07 <+sorear> kilobyte: the main advantage is only having to maintain one code path - but that's moot if rax/Napkin want to keep saves permanently unpacked
13:07 < syllogism> mara is probably a bit too nasty, though usually she doesn't use her abilities very effectively
13:07 < syllogism> maybe the illusion should have smaller hd
13:07 <+due> That can get fixed.
13:07 <+due> the fakes?
13:07 < syllogism> player ghost
13:07 < syllogism> and maybe fakes too
13:07 < syllogism> so the player ghost wont one shot casters
13:08 <+due> He doesn't usually player ghost very often, though.
13:08 <+due> And you get plenty of time tto run away.
13:08 < syllogism> true, that's what I did
13:09 < syllogism> 3x lightning bolt is pretty mean too
13:09 <+due> It also amuses me how many people consider Mara a feminine name.
13:09  * kilobyte got Mara with a demon trident of draining, and it was a tough fix.
13:09 < Napkin> me too!
13:09 <+kilobyte> Because it is?
13:09 < cbus> ?? mara
13:09 < Henzell> mara[1/1]: Lord of Illusions! Mara creates two identical (stats, spells, weapon, armour) clones of himself, summons a hostile ghost (based on you), blinks, and casts {Mislead}.
13:09 <+due> kilobyte: Er, no way.
13:09 < cbus> mara sounds female
13:09 < Napkin> it've actually met 2 woman with that name ;)
13:09 <+kilobyte> if fact, in Polish, all female names _by law_ have to end in -a
13:10 <+due> Mara was a male demon in Buddhist mythology.
13:10 < Napkin> :)
13:12 <+due> Eh, he doesn't care :)
13:12 <+kilobyte> yeah, but it sounds feminine for the western ear.  Most other contries may lack that "always -a" rule, but I see that even without it, people from so-called western countries think Mara is female.
13:12 <+due> Sure.
13:13 <+due> It doesn't help that a lot of popular characters named Mara in pop culture are female.
13:13 <+due> Mara Jade, fr'example.
13:13 <+due> (Which, amusingly, is hwere Mara gets his colour.)
13:13 <+greensnark> Don't don't don't nerf Mara illusions!
13:14 <+greensnark> Who is impersonating syllogism today
13:14 <+kilobyte> Crawl isn't tied to any particular culture, though.
13:14 <+due> @??Mara
13:14 < Gretell> Mara (R) | Speed: 10 | HD: 20 | Health: 140 | AC/EV: 10/14 | Damage: 30 | Flags: demonic, evil, see invisible | Res: magic(213), elec++, poison | XP: 7532 | Sp: mislead, mara summon, b.lightning, player ghost, pain, teleport self.
13:14 <+greensnark> syllogism: What have you done with the real syllogism :P
13:14 < Eronarn> kilobyte: 'nerd'
13:14 < syllogism> greensnark: I know it's going to happen so might as well say it first :P
13:15 <+greensnark> Mara's gotten hardly any kills :P
13:15 < AceTetra> it's tied to cultures that spell color with a u
13:15 < syllogism> yeah it sometimes takes forever until she uses her abilities
13:15 <+greensnark> syllogism: Unlike Shoals :P
13:15 < Eronarn> dungeoun crauwl
13:15 <+kilobyte> well, at least I got my pants full while fighting her
13:15 <+kilobyte> him dammit
13:16 <+greensnark> Gastronok was pretty kind to me this game
13:16 <+greensnark> I was within one shot of airstrike for most of the fight :P
13:16 <+greensnark> For some reason worshipping Zin makes you eager to end it aaaall :P
13:16 <+greensnark> !lm . uniq=Gastronok x=hp
13:16 < Henzell> 4. [2010-01-15] [hp=27] greensnark the Archer (L12 DEHu) killed Gastronok on turn 31096. (Lair:5)
13:17 <+greensnark> Possibly Gastronok was also worshipping Zin this game
13:17 <+kilobyte> heh, probably
13:17 <+greensnark> He had like 40 turns to airstrike me but couldn't be bothered :P
13:17 <+by> how much damage does he do nowadays?
13:17 <+due> He's lazy!
13:17 <+due> !lg * killer=gastronok kaux=~airstrike x=dam,mhp,hp
13:17 < Henzell> No games for * (killer=gastronok kaux=~airstrike).
13:18 < Eronarn> I'm lazy. Bed.
13:18 <+due> !lg * killer=gastronok kaux=~air x=dam,mhp,hp
13:18 < Henzell> 15. [dam=27;mhp=43;hp=-18] TGW the Conjurer (L10 KoCj), worshipper of Vehumet, blasted by Gastronok (the air) on D:9 on 2010-01-12, with 3656 points after 11349 turns and 0:52:59.
13:18 <+kilobyte> !lg * killer=gastronok s=kaux
13:18 < Henzell> 27 games for * (killer=gastronok): 15x by the air, 12x 
13:19 <+Zaba> !lg * killer=gastronok kaux=~air max=dam
13:19 < Henzell> 15. TGW the Conjurer (L11 DrCj), worshipper of Fedhas, blasted by Gastronok (the air) on D:12 on 2009-11-23, with 11155 points after 19576 turns and 1:22:49.
13:19 <+Zaba> !lg * killer=gastronok kaux=~air max=dam x=dam
13:19 < Henzell> 15. [dam=63] TGW the Conjurer (L11 DrCj), worshipper of Fedhas, blasted by Gastronok (the air) on D:12 on 2009-11-23, with 11155 points after 19576 turns and 1:22:49.
13:19 <+due> It got nerfed, though.
13:19 <+greensnark> due: "predilection" :P
13:19 <+due> greensnark: what?
13:19 <+due> did I misspell?
13:19 <+due> oh
13:20 <+due> Thanks.
13:20 <+greensnark> Nice unique roundup post
13:20 <+due> Thank you, I've been working on it for a week :)
13:20 <+due> Okay, there was something else I had to do, and I can't remember what
13:21 <+due> Oh, berserks and flaming clouds.
13:24 <+kilobyte> Wayne -- the reason why he was changed to a human was the lack of dwarf corpses.  I think it's better to add the corpses instead of changing the tile and his theme.
13:24 <+sorear> I don't know exactly how much damage gastronok does
13:24 <+sorear> but he's on the 3dX system now
13:25 <+sorear> not the average 20, max 120 ludicrousity of before
13:26 <+due> Or just give him no corpse.
13:28 <+due> by: Heh, inverted logc for the berserk flame clouds.
13:29 <+Zaba> isn't wayne boring and should meet an axe? Or was he changed?
13:29 <+due> i think that was Duane
13:29 <+sorear> don't get rid of wayne, I had a fun fight with him once
13:29 <+sorear> !lm * noun=~wayne s=game_id
13:30 < CIA-81> due * r61b77be6b62b /crawl-ref/source/mon-stuff.cc: Fix inverted logic with berserk + harmful clouds.
13:30 <+due> Is Henzell dead?
13:30 <+due> Or just heavily lag'd?
13:31 < Henzell> 3308 milestones for * (noun=~wayne): 119x , 3x 160458, 2x 385578, 2x 143442, 2x 495025, 2x 139163, 2x 355221, 1x 370191, 1x 373727, 1x 375183, 1x 376596, 1x 378984, 1x 387299, 1x 385898, 1x 390790, 1x 505638, 1x 399521, 1x 408207, 1x 426626, 1x 418202, 1x 422980, 1x 424305, 1x 431219, 1x 18166, 1x 436408, 1x 26458, 1x 448467, 1x 34299, 1x 453528, 1x 43844, 1x 459803, 1x 51008, 1x 497950, 1x 54650,...
13:31 <+sorear> !lm * noun=~wayne game_id=160458
13:31 < Henzell> 3. [2008-09-02] sorear the Swashbuckler (L16 HaWr) banished Wayne on turn 49332. (D:19)
13:31 <+sorear> !lm * noun=~wayne game_id=160458 -2
13:31 < Henzell> 2. [2008-09-02] sorear the Swashbuckler (L16 HaWr) is cast into the Abyss! (Wayne) (D:19)
13:31 <+sorear> !lm * noun=~wayne game_id=160458 -4
13:31 < Henzell> Index out of range: -4
13:31 <+sorear> !lm * noun=~wayne game_id=160458 -3
13:31 < Henzell> 1. [2008-09-02] sorear the Swashbuckler (L16 HaWr) is cast into the Abyss! (Wayne) (D:19)
13:31 <+sorear> I have the only 3 wayne milestone game \o/
13:31 <+due> nice :D
13:32 <+due> Did he chase you back out?
13:32 <+sorear> no, I got sweet revenge
13:32 <+sorear> *out*
13:33 < CIA-81> due vaults * r899243aa8bf4 /crawl-ref/ (29 files in 10 dirs): Merge branch 'master' into vaults
13:35 <+due> Oh, he abyssed you twice--and then you abyssed hm?
13:35 <+sorear> yes
13:35 <+due> nice
13:36 < syllogism> rods of discovery are pretty useful now
13:38 -!- Mu_ [i=Mu@cpc14-live9-0-0-cust109.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined ##crawl-dev
13:38 <+kilobyte> too bad they lack Detect Creatures
13:43 < Napkin> *** 2 new articles on http://crawl.develz.org - head over there and enjoy! ***
13:50 <+due> hooray :0
13:57 < syllogism> wow this bailey had good loot
13:57 < syllogism> maybe it's okay for trowel to make bailey portals :P
13:58 < syllogism> I got 2x acquirement, 3x EA, tons of potions
14:00 <+due> greensnark: Around?
14:03 <+kilobyte> wait... you got a Trove from a trowel card?
14:03 <+kilobyte> now that's broken
14:03 < syllogism> you can only get it once
14:04 <+greensnark> due: Am now
14:05 < CIA-81> due vaults * r5489f9d038af /crawl-ref/source/dat/vault_gen.des: Attempts at subvaults specificaly for stairs in vaults.
14:05 <+due> greensnark: Can you think of any reason why the subvault I just  committed will only ever show up once?
14:06 <+due> eg:
14:06 <+due> http://sprunge.us/aZJV
14:06 <+due> (There's only one with a statue in it.)
14:06 <+due> Instead of all of them with statues in them.
14:07 <+greensnark> Does the subvault builder allow duplicates?
14:07 <+due> It should
14:07 <+due> Well, it doesa
14:07 <+due> If I change the fill to 'w', they're all water-filled.
14:08 <+greensnark> Let me try it
14:08 < Mu_> what's with all the doorways to nowhere
14:08 <+due> It's late and I'm tired and possibly insane :0
14:10 <+due> Testing
14:10 <+greensnark> due: How do I repro this??
14:10 < CIA-81> Keskitalo * rcf1e3ef75bf3 /crawl-ref/source/cmd-keys.h: Add an include guard. (felirx)
14:10 <+due> &Playout>vaults
14:13 <+greensnark> I don't see the statue at all
14:13 <+due> It'll only be in one?
14:13 <+greensnark> No statue on level at all :P
14:13 <+due> :|
14:13 <+due> In that case, why not?
14:14 <+greensnark> I think the size of the subvault matters to the subvault builder, right?
14:15 <+greensnark> The problem is, this subvault has a size of 0x0 until the Lua actually runs
14:15 <+greensnark> I need to look at the subvault builder code
14:15 <+due> But it still works once for me.
14:15 <+due> I'll termcas
14:16 <+due> *termcast
14:17  * due back in ten
14:24  * due back
14:24 <+due> greensnark: any luck?
14:25 < cbus> greensnark, java issues in arch :)
14:25 < cbus> \o/
14:25 <+greensnark> due: No, just looking at subvault code
14:25 <+greensnark> I'm not familiar with how they work
14:25 <+due> Me neither. :)
14:26 <+Keskitalo> Hmm.
14:26 <+greensnark> So the subvault builder does run the Lua before checking dimensions
14:26 <+Keskitalo> We are making a keybindings settings file for dvorak keyboard. The keybindings are overriding 'D', which is a wizard command.
14:27 <+due> Detect creatures?
14:27 <+Keskitalo> If I do a bindkey = [D] CMD_TARGET_WIZARD_DEBUG_MONSTER, will it cause problems for non-wizard builds?
14:27 <+Keskitalo> Oh, it's a targetting command anyway - not a normal command? I guess that's no problem.
14:28 <+Keskitalo> No wait, you use the vi keys in targetting too. Hmh.
14:29 < cbus> keskitalo, is there any point? :)
14:29 < cbus> keskitalo, (making a keybinding)
14:29 < cbus> most dvorak users should have gotten used to it by now (I have)
14:30 <+Keskitalo> Do you use the vi keys for moving? That's the main point, felirx is a dvorak user and his laptop has no numpad.
14:30 < cbus> keskitalo, on my laptop but I don't play much on it
14:30 < cbus> but I hve done that :)
14:30 <+Keskitalo> Pretty wild. :D
14:31 <+Keskitalo> Hey, you can test the file for us. :)
14:31 < cbus> keskitalo, having an epic battle with java currently
14:31 < cbus> :D
14:31 < cbus> [root@coolhwip:/home/cbus] java
14:31 <+Keskitalo> Yeah, no hurry!
14:31 < cbus> Error occurred during initialization of VM
14:31 < cbus> java.lang.ExceptionInInitializerError
14:31 < cbus> Caused by: java.lang.NullPointerException at java.lang.System.nullInputStream(System.java:1074) at java.lang.System.<clinit>(System.java:73)
14:31 < cbus> it doesn't want to work :)
14:31 <+greensnark> due: You're using D for all subvaults, right?
14:32 <+greensnark> From what I can see, the subvault builder expects only one block of D for one subvault line
14:32 <+Keskitalo> There's four buttons (plus the capital and CTRL variations) to relocate though, so it's not entirely straightforward.
14:32 <+due> greensnark: Ahhhh.
14:32 <+due> Okay, I see.
14:32 <+due> Okay, that's doable.
14:32 <+greensnark> Just call subvault immediately after you fill each room and it should work
14:34 <+due> Yup.
14:34 <+greensnark> cbus: I've used arch java without issues
14:34 <+greensnark> What have you done to it :P
14:34 <+greensnark> OpenJDK?
14:34 <+due> Hooray, it worked!
14:34 < cbus> yeah it just stopped working after an -Syu and it didn't even update openjdk6 :)
14:34 <+greensnark> What are you using Java for, I thought you were a Java hater :P
14:35 <+due> m.
14:35 <+greensnark> due: Yay?
14:35 <+due> Too many stairs.
14:35 <+due> But better!
14:35 <+greensnark> There's a function in dungeon.cc that removes extra stairs, just wrap it :P
14:36 <+greensnark> I think it gets called automatically ,eactually
14:36 <+due> Hehe.
14:36 <+greensnark> Presumably your portal vaultness is what's preventing that from running
14:36 <+due> private or public function?
14:36 <+due> Ah, true.
14:37 <+greensnark> _fixup_stone_stairs
14:38 <+due> I just got to it :)
14:38 < cbus> greensnark, http://pastebin.com/d3b804d3
14:38 < cbus> :D
14:39 <+greensnark> cbus: Nice :P
14:41 < cbus> greensnark, told you, epic battle! :)
14:41 < cbus> and I'm not winning
14:42 <+greensnark> Why are you so desperate for Java? :P
14:42 < cbus> [root@coolhwip:/etc/ssl] date
14:42 < cbus> Sun Nov 28 20:29:46 CET 1943
14:42 < cbus> greensnark, need argouml
14:42 <+greensnark> Nice date :P
14:43 <+greensnark> You should spontaneously disappear because you don't exist yet :P
14:43 < cbus> greensnark, getting bitching and moaning from firefox and that the certificates haven't started to become valid yet
14:43 < cbus> (2009 vs 1943) :D
14:44 <+Keskitalo> Argh, a bit more commands to rebind that I though of.
14:44  * greensnark rebinds Keskitalo.
14:45 <+greensnark> Sounds kinky
14:47 < cbus> greensnark, setting the date fixed it
14:48 < cbus> every problem I've had
14:48 <+due> greensnark: I had bad code :)
14:48 <+greensnark> We all knew cbus was a Luddite
14:48 <+greensnark> But we didn't know he was literally stuck in the past :P
14:49 <+greensnark> No wonder you keep using old monster colours :P
14:51 < cbus> ?? luddite
14:51 < Henzell> I don't have a page labeled luddite in my learndb.
14:51 < cbus> greensnark, I have the new colours, I'm used to them now, but they are still wrong :(
14:52 <+due> !leearn add luddite A follower of the god Ludd. Namely, {cbus}.
14:52 < cbus> greensnark, still on an old kerner now :)
14:58 <+kilobyte> well, isn't NTP freaking mandatory?
14:58 <+kilobyte> there should be law stating that
14:59 -!- timecircuits [n=Adium@pool-71-246-66-203.bltmmd.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."]
15:01 < cbus> kilobyte, I have openntpd running but it doesn't fix year and date :)
15:03 < cbus> kilobyte, date -s "2010-01-15 13:00"; /etc/rc.d/openntpd restart
15:03 < cbus> :)
15:04 < CIA-81> due vaults * rb8f373110bca /crawl-ref/source/dat/vault_gen.des: Randomly placed stairs in rooms now works properly for Vaults branch.
15:04 < CIA-81> due vaults * r80b240307fac /crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: And switch Vaults to using the new builder.
15:04 <+due> Now I need to work out how to stop monsters generating outside of the vault.
15:04 <+due> But tomorrow.
15:05 <+kilobyte> uhm... then it's broken, since that's a good part of what you use NTP for
15:05 < cbus> kilobyte, hmm, I'll try it on next restart
15:06 < cbus> I think the battery is fried so it will probably go back in time to 1943 on next reboot too :)
15:06 <+due> Night, folk.
15:06 < cbus> enight
15:07 < cbus> keskitalo, btw, I've never played crawl with qwerty (only dvorak with numpad and occasionally on laptop with vikeys on dvorak)
15:07 < cbus> :D
15:07 < cbus> keskitalo, so I'm not used to vikeys with qwerty
15:08 <+Keskitalo> cbus: Heh, yeah. And there's actually really a ton of rebinds, so it's probably not at all useful once you're used to the normal settings.
15:08 < cbus> keskitalo, I've never used vikeys with qwert :D
15:09 <+doy> cbus: PARAMS="-s" in /etc/conf.d/openntpd
15:10 <+doy> (also, arch++)
15:10 -!- purge [n=IceChat7@d192-24-82-173.try.wideopenwest.com] has joined ##crawl-dev
15:11 < cbus> doy, already on
15:12 < cbus> [cbus@coolhwip:/etc/conf.d] cat openntpd     
15:12 < cbus> #  -s Set the time immediately at startup if the local clock is off by more than#  180 seconds.
15:12 < purge> hey i think the channel log stopped recording?
15:12 < cbus> PARAMS="-s"
15:12 < cbus> hmm, default
15:15 < CIA-81> kilobyte * r9382906ac78b /crawl-ref/source/ (dat/descript/monsters.txt enum.h mon-data.h): Make Wayne a dwarf once again.
15:16 < purge> seems strange greensnark so readily keeps nerfing shoals :O
15:18 < purge> too bad jpeg never comes on, she deserves props for being so active lately!
15:20 < cbus> if she isn't on IRC she isn't active *nods*
15:20 < cbus> ;)
15:21 < purge> !tell due you should design D&D in the in-game doll dresser and then maybe recolor or add little details(since they are your babies!)
15:21 < Henzell> purge: OK, I'll let due know.
15:26 < cbus> btw, what was the meaning of allowing coloured draconian zombies?
15:27 <+greensnark> Their scales are coloured and the zombies keep the scales
15:28 < cbus> hmm, btw you sould make the space key do nothing per default
15:28 < cbus> (not wait just don't spam invalid command) :)
15:28 -!- timecircuits [n=Adium@pool-71-246-66-203.bltmmd.east.verizon.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
15:37 <+doy> i use space to tell if i got disconnected
15:37 <+doy> without potentially wasting a turn
15:37 < AceTetra> i like the -- yeah, what doy said
15:37 < AceTetra> lets me know when a burst of lag is over
15:42 <+Keskitalo> purge: I think they should rather be reworked from the deep elf monster tiles.
15:42 <+Keskitalo> But yeah, the doll versions would work too. :)
15:51 -!- purge is now known as purge83[A]
16:21 < purge83[A]> grrr
16:21 < purge83[A]> this stupid thing is still doing that
16:21 -!- purge83[A] is now known as purge
16:21 < purge> oh goodie kesk your here! I need your opinion!
16:21 < purge> 1 sec
16:23 < purge> Tell me what you think of these toadstools i just made from *scratch*:
16:23 < purge> http://s153.photobucket.com/albums/s210/purge83/Crawl/?action=view&current=toadstool_right.png
16:23 < purge> http://s153.photobucket.com/albums/s210/purge83/Crawl/?action=view&current=toadstool_left.png
16:24 < purge> Keskitalo: beep :)
16:30 -!- Cryp71c [n=Cryp71c@173-162-21-124-Nashville.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
16:31 -!- ogaz [n=chatzill@adsl-99-190-96-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
16:37 <+doy> http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:item:wands thoughts?
16:38 <+Keskitalo> purge: They look nice and tasty to me!
16:38 < purge> i submitted  to tracker :)
16:39 < purge> took me about an hour to make them
16:39 <+Keskitalo> Good. The shadows cut off a bit.
16:39 <+Keskitalo> Yeah, that happens. :)
16:39 < purge> yes they do :/
16:39 < Ashenzari> Mushroom tile submission (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=430) by purge
16:39 < purge> i think maybe they can be moved to the left a few more pixels and the shadow fixed up a bit
16:40 <+Keskitalo> I'd suggest to make the shadows shorter, just a blob under the mushrooms. They look longer than (most) tiles.
16:40 < purge> i'll look at it later though
16:40 < purge> ^ noted
16:40 < CIA-81> Keskitalo * r27a4db5c21d9 /crawl-ref/settings/ (dvorak_command_keys.txt init.txt): Dvorak keybindings for use with vi keys.
16:40 < ogaz> @??hellion
16:40 < Gretell> hellion (2) | Speed: 13 | HD: 7 | Health: 21-56 | AC/EV: 5/10 | Damage: 10 | Flags: demonic | Res: magic(65), hellfire, poison | Vul: cold | XP: 594 | Sp: hellfire burst.
16:40 <+by> doy: from a quick look, I like the effect, but it doesn't feel like a wand to me
16:40 < ogaz> oops
16:40 < purge> doy: I think that could be better served as an air spell?
16:41 < purge> with power directly related to spell power
16:41 <+doy> it's mainly a wand because this was initially brainstormed years ago as a nethack idea
16:41 <+doy> (:
16:41 <+Zaba> it got implemented in sporkhack, no?
16:41 <+doy> did it?
16:41 <+Zaba> there's a wand of wind that pushes monsters, I believe
16:41 <+doy> i haven't paid any attention to sporkhack in like two years
16:42 <+doy> it might actually work better as a misc item, where the one-shot ability applies this to all monsters in los
16:42 <+doy> not sure if i like it as a spell
16:43 < Mu_> i suggested a wand of wind once mostly for pushing cloud effects around
16:43 <+Zaba> it'd help to have some nice misc items, or wands, with unique effects.
16:43 <+doy> Mu_: wind in that sense would make a better spell, i think
16:44 <+doy> that would be pretty cool for air elementalists
16:44 < Mu_> ye
16:44 -!- eith [n=eith@86-40-245-49-dynamic.b-ras2.lmk.limerick.eircom.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
16:44 < Mu_> Gust or something
16:45 <+doy> Mu_: you should add a wiki page for that
16:45 <+doy> i think it's a good idea
16:46 < purge> doy: it fits the air magic play style though. Air is good at keeping monsters away with swift/lev/fly
16:46 <+doy> purge: swift/lev/fly keep you away from monsters
16:46 <+doy> that's different
16:46 <+doy> and this would be more fun as a more powerful ability
16:47 < purge> level 6 spell?
16:47 < purge> :)
16:47 <+doy> meh(:
16:47 <+doy> we need more decent misc items anyway
16:47 < Mu_> i'll wait for eronarn to put up his big spell overhaul i guess ;p
16:48 < purge> doy: that would fit the fan well, but i don't like that misc items have infinite charges
16:48 < purge> especially if you want it to be powerful
16:49 <+doy> i like misc items that have infinite charges, but a downside
16:49 <+doy> crystal balls, for instance
16:49 <+doy> this one could push you backwards instead of the monster forwards, if you miss an evo roll or something
16:52 <+doy> Mu_: write it down now so we don't forget... ero can integrate it in when he gets around to it(:
16:53 -!- Zannick [n=mick@PROTEUS.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined ##crawl-dev
16:56 < Mu_> don't have page-makin rights anyway ;p
17:05 <+doy> http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:magic:spell:gust
17:05 <+doy> have fun!
17:08 -!- nrook [n=nrook@ip68-14-16-167.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
17:09 <+doy> @??tormentor
17:09 < Gretell> tormentor (3) | Speed: 13 | HD: 7 | Health: 21-56 | AC/EV: 12/12 | Damage: 8, 8 | Flags: demonic, evil, fly | Res: magic(56), fire, poison | XP: 412 | Sp: pain, torment symbol.
17:09 <+doy> @??hellion
17:09 < Gretell> hellion (2) | Speed: 13 | HD: 7 | Health: 21-56 | AC/EV: 5/10 | Damage: 10 | Flags: demonic | Res: magic(65), hellfire, poison | Vul: cold | XP: 594 | Sp: hellfire burst.
17:09 < Ashenzari> doy created page Gust at http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:magic:spell:gust
17:10 -!- Vandal [i=Incite@cpe-75-185-204-99.woh.res.rr.com] has joined ##crawl-dev
17:11 <+doy> @??iron devil
17:11 < Gretell> iron devil (3) | Speed: 8 | HD: 8 | Health: 24-64 | AC/EV: 16/8 | Damage: 14, 14 | Flags: demonic | Res: magic(64), hellfire, cold, elec++, poison | XP: 322.
17:11 <+doy> @??blue devil
17:11 < Gretell> blue devil (3) | Speed: 10 | HD: 7 | Health: 21-56 | AC/EV: 14/10 | Damage: 21 | Flags: demonic, fly | Res: magic(46), cold+++, poison | Vul: fire | XP: 223.
17:11 <+doy> @??sun demon
17:11 < Gretell> sun demon (2) | Speed: 12 | HD: 10 | Health: 30-80 | AC/EV: 10/12 | Damage: 30(fire) | Flags: demonic, sense invisible, lev | Res: magic(80), hellfire, elec++, poison | Vul: cold | XP: 917.
17:11 <+doy> @??ice devil
17:11 < Gretell> ice devil (2) | Speed: 10 | HD: 11 | Health: 33-88 | AC/EV: 12/10 | Damage: 16(cold) | Flags: demonic | Res: magic(88), cold+++, poison | Vul: fire | XP: 788.
17:21 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r11b086105f15 /crawl-ref/source/ (14 files in 3 dirs): Add tiles for the new merfolk monsters.
17:32 -!- MarvinPA-2 [n=marvin@cpc2-aztw19-0-0-cust376.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined ##crawl-dev
17:36 -!- MarvinPA [n=marvin@cpc2-aztw19-0-0-cust376.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
17:36 -!- MarvinPA-2 is now known as MarvinPA
17:36 -!- Twinge- [n=user@97-124-162-215.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
17:40 -!- MarvinPA [n=marvin@cpc2-aztw19-0-0-cust376.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit []
17:41 < Mu_> tx ;p
17:42 -!- Twinge [n=user@97-124-153-196.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
17:43 <+greensnark> !tell due 78291 found Cigotuvi's fleshworks <3
17:43 < Henzell> greensnark: OK, I'll let due know.
17:43 < Mu_> !!
17:43 <+greensnark> Mu_: Is that yours or due's? :)
17:43 < Mu_> mine :))
17:43 <+greensnark> It looks really cool
17:43 <+greensnark> And "fleshy orifices" for doors is hilarious :P
17:44 < Mu_> i wanted them to be sphincters :p
17:44 <+greensnark> :P
17:44 <+greensnark> Did due censor that or something? :P
17:44 < Mu_> ;-)
17:45 < Mu_> if you get a noisy one it opens with a squelch
17:46 < Mu_> darn looks like he's afk
17:47 < Mu_> 78, i mean
17:47 <+greensnark> @??flesh golem
17:47 < Gretell> unknown monster: "flesh golem"
17:47 <+greensnark> What's the flesh golem based on?
17:47 <+greensnark> What base monster, I mean
17:47 < Mu_> clay
17:48 <+greensnark> Ah
17:48 <+greensnark> It seemed to die pretty fast :)
17:48 < Mu_> i should probably give it a bigger hp or something
17:48 <+greensnark> He's back
17:48 <+greensnark> But I think he's finished exploring the level
17:48 < Mu_> i'll tv it i think
17:51 -!- Twinge [n=user@97-124-173-108.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
17:52 < Mu_> they need some more variety in their cries i think :p
17:54 <+greensnark> Heh, Cigotuvi's Monster
17:54 < Mu_> it's a tent. monstrosity 
17:55 <+greensnark> I like these wizlabs
17:56 <+greensnark> Very nicely done
17:56 < Mu_> idd, due and everyone have worked very hard on them
17:56 -!- Twinge- [n=user@97-124-162-215.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
17:57 < Mu_> this orifice is marked as excluded!
17:58 <+doy> !lm * verb=~wizlab s=verb
17:58 < Henzell> No milestones for * (verb=~wizlab).
17:59 <+doy> !lm * noun=~wizlab s=verb
17:59 <+greensnark> !lm * place=wizlab s=milestone
17:59 <+doy> does that work?
17:59 < Henzell> 11 milestones for * (noun=~wizlab): 11x br.enter
17:59 < Henzell> 11 milestones for * (place=wizlab): 4x entered Wucad Mu's Monastery., 2x entered Tukima's Studio., 2x entered Erinya's Formal Garden., 1x entered The Cloud Mage's Chambers., 1x entered Cigotuvi's Fleshworks., 1x entered Cekugob's Oubliette.
18:00 <+doy> i thought i remembered portal vault milestones being reported from the place of their entrance
18:00 <+doy> guess not
18:00 <+doy> (:
18:00 <+greensnark> They should be, but they're not
18:00 <+doy> ah, that was it
18:00 <+greensnark> Branch entrances should also report the level containing the branch entrance
18:00 <+doy> yes
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18:08 <+Keskitalo> !seen pigvomit
18:08 < Henzell> I last saw PigVomit at Fri Jan 15 16:53:43 2010 UTC (15m ago) saying !log on Henzell.
18:09 -!- Twinge [n=user@97-124-173-108.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
18:09 -!- jld [i=jld@kurobara.xlerb.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
18:19 -!- Zaba [n=zaba@about/goats/billygoat/zaba] has quit [Success]
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18:23 <+doy> @whereis n78291
18:23 < Gretell> No where information for n78291 ().
18:23 <+doy> @whereis 78291
18:23 < Gretell> 78291 the Eclecticist (L23 DERe), a worshipper of Okawaru, is currently on Snake:5 after 94610 turns.
18:23 <+doy> dere, that sounds like fun
18:25 <+doy> !lg * char=dere max=sc
18:25 < Henzell> 684. Shaijin the Archmage (L27 DERe), worshipper of Sif Muna, escaped with the Orb and 19 runes on 2009-09-21, with 9882313 points after 171118 turns and 16:51:44.
18:25 <+doy> !lg * char=dere max=sc god!=sif muna
18:25 < Henzell> 640. DashNine the Archmage (L27 DERe), worshipper of Vehumet, escaped with the Orb and 4 runes on 2008-10-23, with 1022013 points after 199107 turns and 26:17:34.
18:25 <+doy> !lg * char=dere max=sc god!=sif muna god!=vehumet
18:25 < Henzell> 606. N78291 the Eclecticist (L17 DERe), worshipper of Okawaru, blasted by Nikola (chain lightning) on Vault:1 on 2009-12-25, with 148382 points after 70566 turns and 3:41:38.
18:26 <+doy> !lg * char=decr max=sc god!=sif muna god!=vehumet
18:26 < Henzell> 474. modargo the Spellbinder (L27 DECr), worshipper of The Shining One, escaped with the Orb and 15 runes on 2009-02-03, with 10091672 points after 165019 turns and 14:43:00.
18:30 -!- Adeon is now known as Noeda
18:34 <+Keskitalo> M_INSUBSTANTIAL give fake rakshasas away by just looking at them.
18:35 <+doy> yeah, i don't think they should get it
18:52 <+doy> wow, ice caves have ice fiends?
18:52 <+doy> nasty
18:55 <+Keskitalo> Yeah, some do.
18:55 < CIA-81> Keskitalo * r171243aee1f1 /crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: Remove M_INSUBSTANTIAL from fake rakshasas again. It made them identifable by just looking at them.
18:58 < purge> wow heh.. gilly meleed a titanic slime creature after using !oagility and !omight
18:58 < purge> 36 ac though
19:09 <+Keskitalo> Unique idea: a shadow draconian with draining breath and wraith posse.
19:09 <+doy> write it up1
19:10 <+Keskitalo> I don't see a uniques page in the wiki yet.
19:12 <+doy> hmmm, surprising
19:13 <+doy> looks like you have it covered already though
19:13 <+doy> (:
19:13 -!- Noeda is now known as Adeon
19:13 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r07819f0aa5a7 /crawl-ref/source/rltiles/ (3 files in 2 dirs): Add purge's toadstool tiles.
19:14 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * re9a337536b2a /crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-mon.txt: Fix tiles compilation.
19:14 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * rd3b316cb62dd /crawl-ref/source/ (mon-place.cc tilepick.cc): Add new props value "tile_num" and use it for randomized monster tiles.
19:15 < Ashenzari> evktalo created page Uniques at http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:monster:uniques
19:17 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r4224dfb2d227 /crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-mon/unique/dissolution.png: Recolour Dissolution again to increase the difference to the jelly tile.
19:17 -!- by [n=rob@e177085140.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.]
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19:17 -!- by_ is now known as by
19:28 -!- Twinge- is now known as Twinge
19:31 <+Keskitalo> Master branch on CDO updated to: 0.6.0-a1-2286-g4224dfb (16.0)
19:33 < nrook> is there an easy way to have both a tiles and non-tiles build in the same directory, using the same code?
19:33 <+doy> don't think so
19:33 < nrook> i.e. so that make debug tiles=y doesn't eat my make debug tiles=n build
19:34 <+doy> since most source files will get compiled differently
19:34 <+doy> based on the USE_TILES preprocessor flag
19:34 <+doy> (or whatever it's called)
19:35 <+doy> could just keep two checkouts and use git to pull changes between them
19:36 < nrook> indeed, but it's probably easier just to recompile every time I want to check how my vaults look in tiles
19:37 <+doy> well, it'd keep you from having to recompile everything, anyway
19:50 < Napkin> ?? adejctives[2]
19:50 < Henzell> I don't have a page labeled adejctives[2] in my learndb.
19:50 < Napkin> ?? adjectives[2]
19:50 < Henzell> adjectives[2/2]: (rtef|glo|run|dye|emb|hin|smo|twi|arp|spar|ncr|pitt|limy|poli|fine|crud|anc|stea|iri|bloo|cry|jew|ich|humm|furr|atin|erin|twit|black|dul|y-b|silk|tatt|nd s|fabu|sapp|jade|rust|blue|lden|brut|soft|smel|ming|ed l|ck g|ne g|bron|stee|weir|ebon|mang|ue m|mith|very|dirt|tiny|e-c|litt|phos|d-s|ork|pur|one l|t ser|ruby|chunky|in d|ivor|ephe)
19:50 < Napkin> do we still need that?
19:51 <+doy> possibly
19:51 <+doy> someone should really get around to fixing that if so though
19:51 < Napkin> it's ruining the learndb.html display
19:52 <+doy> how so?
19:52 < Napkin> because of it's missing spaces in the first line until "y-b"
19:52 < Napkin> because it's not wrapped
19:52 <+doy> ah
19:53 <+doy> !learn edit adjectives[2] s/ed l/anc/
19:53 < Henzell> adjectives[2/2]: (rtef|glo|run|dye|emb|hin|smo|twi|arp|spar|ncr|pitt|limy|poli|fine|crud|anc|stea|iri|bloo|cry|jew|ich|humm|furr|atin|erin|twit|black|dul|y-b|silk|tatt|nd s|fabu|sapp|jade|rust|blue|lden|brut|soft|smel|ming|anc|ck g|ne g|bron|stee|weir|ebon|mang|ue m|mith|very|dirt|tiny|e-c|litt|phos|d-s|ork|pur|one l|t ser|ruby|chunky|in d|ivor|ephe)
19:53 <+doy> !learn edit adjectives[2] s/ming|anc/ming|ed l/
19:53 < Henzell> adjectives[2/2]: (rtef|glo|run|dye|emb|hin|smo|twi|arp|spar|ncr|pitt|limy|poli|fine|crud|ming|ed l|stea|iri|bloo|cry|jew|ich|humm|furr|atin|erin|twit|black|dul|y-b|silk|tatt|nd s|fabu|sapp|jade|rust|blue|lden|brut|soft|smel|ming|anc|ck g|ne g|bron|stee|weir|ebon|mang|ue m|mith|very|dirt|tiny|e-c|litt|phos|d-s|ork|pur|one l|t ser|ruby|chunky|in d|ivor|ephe)
19:53 <+doy> better?
19:54 < Napkin> can't check live
19:54 < Napkin> but should do the trick :)
19:54 < Napkin> thanks
19:56 < Napkin> could you also switch "d-s" with "arp"?
19:56 < Napkin> they are not sorted in any way, right?
19:56 < Napkin> just to be on the safe side
19:56 <+doy> nope
19:56 <+doy> !learn edit adjectives[2] s/d-s/arp/
19:56 < Henzell> adjectives[2/2]: (rtef|glo|run|dye|emb|hin|smo|twi|arp|spar|ncr|pitt|limy|poli|fine|crud|ming|ed l|stea|iri|bloo|cry|jew|ich|humm|furr|atin|erin|twit|black|dul|y-b|silk|tatt|nd s|fabu|sapp|jade|rust|blue|lden|brut|soft|smel|ming|anc|ck g|ne g|bron|stee|weir|ebon|mang|ue m|mith|very|dirt|tiny|e-c|litt|phos|arp|ork|pur|one l|t ser|ruby|chunky|in d|ivor|ephe)
19:57 <+doy> !learn edit adjectives[2] s/twi|arp/twi|d-s/
19:57 < Henzell> adjectives[2/2]: (rtef|glo|run|dye|emb|hin|smo|twi|d-s|arp|spar|ncr|pitt|limy|poli|fine|crud|ming|ed l|stea|iri|bloo|cry|jew|ich|humm|furr|atin|erin|twit|black|dul|y-b|silk|tatt|nd s|fabu|sapp|jade|rust|blue|lden|brut|soft|smel|ming|anc|ck g|ne g|bron|stee|weir|ebon|mang|ue m|mith|very|dirt|tiny|e-c|litt|phos|arp|ork|pur|one l|t ser|ruby|chunky|in d|ivor|ephe)
19:57 < Napkin> thank you :)
19:57 <+doy> (:
20:05 <+doy> that regex isn't even completely accurate, it'll match "very ugly thing corpse", for instance
20:06 <+doy> and "potion of blood"
20:14 < Napkin> rax? are you in?
20:21 < Ashenzari> unidentified artefacts aren't tagged with {artefact} by stash tracker (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=431) by doy
20:43 < AceTetra> i made it in the order i found the words on that page
20:44 < AceTetra> ?? adjectives
20:44 < Henzell> adjectives[1/2]: List of item and randart prefixes: http://rush68.net/~dave/adjectives.htm
20:44 < AceTetra> and i just tested it by running it a few times in a game and tweaking until no more than a few irrelevant matches came up
20:45 <+doy> yeah, really, this should be handled by the game though
20:45 < AceTetra> it certainly should, but that was the best anyone could think of at the time
20:46 -!- Mu_ [i=Mu@cpc14-live9-0-0-cust109.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place."]
20:52 < AceTetra> why did you put arp and ming in there twice?
20:53 < AceTetra> !learn edit adjectives[2] s/arp\|//
20:53 < Henzell> adjectives[2/2]: (rtef|glo|run|dye|emb|hin|smo|twi|d-s|spar|ncr|pitt|limy|poli|fine|crud|ming|ed l|stea|iri|bloo|cry|jew|ich|humm|furr|atin|erin|twit|black|dul|y-b|silk|tatt|nd s|fabu|sapp|jade|rust|blue|lden|brut|soft|smel|ming|anc|ck g|ne g|bron|stee|weir|ebon|mang|ue m|mith|very|dirt|tiny|e-c|litt|phos|arp|ork|pur|one l|t ser|ruby|chunky|in d|ivor|ephe)
20:53 < AceTetra> !learn edit adjectives[2] s/ming\|//
20:53 < Henzell> adjectives[2/2]: (rtef|glo|run|dye|emb|hin|smo|twi|d-s|spar|ncr|pitt|limy|poli|fine|crud|ed l|stea|iri|bloo|cry|jew|ich|humm|furr|atin|erin|twit|black|dul|y-b|silk|tatt|nd s|fabu|sapp|jade|rust|blue|lden|brut|soft|smel|ming|anc|ck g|ne g|bron|stee|weir|ebon|mang|ue m|mith|very|dirt|tiny|e-c|litt|phos|arp|ork|pur|one l|t ser|ruby|chunky|in d|ivor|ephe)
21:09 -!- TGW1 [n=TGW@c-68-61-239-31.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
21:14 < Napkin> it was like that when we started editing it
21:14 < Napkin> no version control ;)
21:15 -!- Twinge [n=user@97-124-168-164.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
21:16 -!- Twinge [n=user@97-124-168-164.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
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21:37 <+doy> @players
21:37 < Henzell> 14 players: nsdk (L2 HuFi @ D:1, T:897), CatEater (L1 SpAM @ D:1, T:0), Cryptic (L8 DSBe @ D:5, T:4089), Eifeltrampel (L22 MDPa @ Shoal:1, T:82966), FilthyApe (L8 HuCr @ D:5, T:9441), hayenne (L18 MfCr @ Blade, T:69267), Kyrris (L16 SESu @ Shoal:1, T:64373), LinuxLemoner (L4 DECj @ D:2, T:2914), MUMMY (L3 MuSu @ D:2, T:3070), nmf (L4 DECj @ D:4, T:3101), nrook (L12 OgVM @ Lair:3, T:28337), polysty...
21:43 -!- dpeg [n=dpeg@dis.angband.pl] has joined ##crawl-dev
21:43 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+o dpeg] by ChanServ
21:48 < TGW1> what was the argument for retaining the low exp pool cap?
21:50 <+doy> TGW1: the proposal was intended to reduce victory dancing, but i don't think it worked very well
21:50 -!- TGW1 is now known as TGW
21:51 <+doy> dpeg: thoughts? http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:item:wands
21:51 < TGW> victory dancers are exactly the sort of people who DON'T have a lot in their pool
21:51 <+doy> TGW: exactly
21:51 < TGW> I mean, I'm not trying to excavate an ancient bikeshed
21:51 < TGW> but it doesn't seem to accomplish anything
21:53 <@dpeg> cheers
21:54 <@dpeg> doy: good idea but:
21:54 <@dpeg> 0.6!
21:54 <+doy> dpeg: i know, i know
21:54 <+doy> (:
21:54 <@dpeg> please stop adding new content all the time :/
21:54 <+doy> just writing down ideas so we don't forget them
21:54 <+doy> maybe we need to go through and explicitly mark things as 'for 0.6' or 'not for 0.6'
21:54 <+doy> or just assume everything not marked isn't for 0.6
21:55 <+doy> that's probably the better option at this point
21:55 < Eronarn> doy: probably best to have a page of 0.6 goals
21:55 < Eronarn> think we already have that
21:55 < TGW> remove all things from 0.6, release it, and slate everything for 0.7
21:55 <@dpeg> I *did*t that!
21:55 <+doy> heh
21:55 < Eronarn> TGW: but i like ugly things
21:56 <+doy> well then, assume that anything i put on the wiki isn't for 0.6
21:56 < TGW> eronarn: aha, so you don't mind the 11 speed!
21:56 <+doy> this was intended to be part of the evocations thing that includes the misc item stuff
21:56 <+doy> which isn't an 0.6 target
21:56 < Eronarn> TGW: hate it
21:57 <@dpeg> doy: okay!
21:57 <@dpeg> 11 speed for ugly things?
21:57 < TGW> dpeg: yes! <3
21:57 <@dpeg> yes, I like it too
21:57 < Eronarn> dpeg: they had variable speed 9-11; this was changed to constant movespeed 11, attackspeed 10
21:57 <@dpeg> Eronarn: this was a good change
21:57 < Eronarn> as a temporary measure until they get something more interesting
21:58 <@dpeg> they *are* more interesting
21:58 <+doy> who said it was a temporary measure?
21:58 <@dpeg> please stop shooting for the moon all the time
21:58 < Eronarn> doy: sorear
21:58 <+doy> there's a good reason for the 11 speed
21:58 <@dpeg> both ugly things and slime creatures are much more interesting now
21:58 <+doy> i was pretty sure sorear said that the 11 speed was important
21:58 < Eronarn> doy: no there isn't? i was here when it happened
21:58 <+doy> because otherwise you could just pillar dance ugly things into changing color
21:59 <+doy> which is boring
21:59 < TGW> I said that
21:59 < Eronarn> here is why they got 11 speed: because they used to be able to be 9-11, but we wanted them to have the same speed to make it harder to split up packs, but making the constant speed 10 would mean none could catch you
21:59 < Eronarn> however, having 11 speed is *not* the only way to prevent that
21:59 <+doy> how else?
21:59 <@dpeg> but a simple and good one
22:00 < Eronarn> dpeg: yes, which is why it was done on the spot - but it's not meant to be a final decision on them
22:00 <+doy> Eronarn: what other proposals are there for the issue then?
22:00 < TGW> 1) you are an advocate for fast monsters 2) you admit it is a simple and good solution to a problem
22:00 < TGW> you're sounding fairly antagonistic
22:01 <@dpeg> TGW: who?
22:01 < TGW> eronarn
22:01 <@dpeg> !tell Vandal If you're still up to adding more descriptions (please do!), then the new CDO feature might help you a bit.
22:01 < Henzell> dpeg: OK, I'll let Vandal know.
22:01 < Eronarn> doy: that's why i wrote the monster language proposal in the first place; it won't be used as-is but it is a behavior that was designed around ugly things
22:02 <+doy> Eronarn: i don't see how that affects ugly things being able to catch you
22:02 < Eronarn> doy: some of them will stop and reverse direction when pillardancing
22:02 < Eronarn> you can run from them in a straight line, but not around a small pillar
22:03 < Eronarn> they'll simply outflank you
22:03 <+doy> just need to find a large enough pillar then
22:03 < TGW> wait
22:03 < TGW> you're suggesting they seperate themselves again
22:03 <+doy> also that
22:03 < TGW> that is so much less than ideal
22:04 <+doy> also i'm not sure how much i like pack behavior other than trying to stick together
22:04 < Eronarn> TGW: separation would be contingent on them being able to find out where each other are on the level, so they can glom back up
22:04 < TGW> something that tries to flank you might be interesting
22:04 < Eronarn> and lone ones can be made to retreat
22:05 < Eronarn> it's definitely workable, and would be very interesting, but the speed 11 is obviously better than 9-11 in the interim
22:06 <+doy> the problem i have with "smart" ai in general is that it tends to be easy to make it act stupidly, if you know the appropriate tricks
22:06 <+doy> which makes things end up easier overall, since the monsters are balanced with the idea of being 'smart'
22:07 <+doy> i'm not saying it's definitely not workable, i'm just saying that it's a lot of effort for something that's not really clear whether or not it'll be an improvement
22:08 < Eronarn> yeah, i'm not expecting it to happen in 0.6 at all
22:12 <@dpeg> doy: yes
22:12 <@dpeg> also: it is much easier to fake good AI than to make it
22:12 <@dpeg> and: there is no reason to do so, the monsters die anyway
22:12 <@dpeg> good AI for uniques etc., that's a different matter
22:13 <+doy> i think tweaking the ai for pack monsters is a good concept
22:13 <@dpeg> it should be simple
22:13 <+doy> but i don't think it really needs to go all that far
22:13 <@dpeg> flanking was awesome
22:13 <@dpeg> no, if it needs complicated rules, it's probably not robust enough
22:13 <@dpeg> can learn from UnAngband etc.
22:13 <+doy> sure, but also not that appropriate for ugly things, since their interestingness comes from sticking together
22:13 <+doy> (:
22:13 -!- gngstrMNKY is now known as mr0t
22:14 <@dpeg> doy: sure
22:14 <@dpeg> my original proposal had them radiate, which got lost
22:14 <+doy> radiate?
22:14 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * rdb0e3300dd36 /crawl-ref/source/ (chardump.cc command.cc macro.cc macro.h): New method _command_to_string() returning human-readable key names.
22:14 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r77034762eb7e /crawl-ref/source/ (cmd-keys.h command.cc macro.cc macro.h): Use the dynamic command key names for some commands on the help screen.
22:15 <@dpeg> yes, the radiate glow or something, and the more uglies in your vicinity, the worse
22:15 <+doy> oh yeah
22:15 < Eronarn> that would be awful and annoying
22:15 <+doy> not sure if that's really necessary with the rest of the changes
22:15 <+doy> maybe for very ugly things
22:15 < Eronarn> glow worms!!
22:15 <+doy> oooh
22:15 <+doy> (:
22:16 -!- ogaz [n=chatzill@adsl-99-190-96-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
22:16 < Ashenzari> Airstrike no longer giving target information. (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=432) by Kyrris
22:22 <+doy> hmmm
22:22 <+doy> i wonder if giant spores are really reasonable in slime
22:22 <+doy> they don't seem to fit
22:23 <+doy> feels like they're in there just because all G are in there
22:23 < gunofdis> assertion failed in tiledef-player.cc
22:23 <+doy> on a related note, they would probably fit better as * anyway
22:24 < Eronarn> or as f
22:24 <@dpeg> doy: agreed on both
22:26 < TGW> * sounds better
22:26 < Ashenzari> giant spores (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=433) by doy
22:26 < TGW> mobile f's = :[
22:29 < purge> woot on a role, made another decent looking tile :D
22:29 < purge> roll evebn
22:29 < purge> even*
22:29 <+doy> what would be really useful
22:30 <+doy> would be a way to go through stuff on mantis and tag things as 'for 0.6'
22:30 <+doy> oh, i guess that already exists
22:31 < Ashenzari> Assertion failure in tiledef-player.cc line 3765 (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=435) by dis astranagant
22:31 < Ashenzari> Bush tile submission (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=434) by purge
22:31 <+doy> it's just never used
22:31 <+doy> (:
22:32 <+doy> but being able to see "these are the bugs that need to be fixed before 0.6 is released" would be nice
22:32 < Eronarn> doy: i use it :P
22:33 <+doy> Eronarn: there are three items on the tracker with that tag
22:33 <+doy> most recent one from over a month ago
22:33 <+doy> and none by you d:
22:33 < Eronarn> oh, i thought you meant the product version thing
22:34 <+doy> the product version is just for "this bug exists in this version"
22:34 <+doy> doesn't mean it's going to be fixed for the next version
22:34 < Eronarn> doy: you can use it on FRs too :P
22:35 <+doy> Eronarn: my point still stands
22:35 < Eronarn> that's why there's a .7 on there
22:35 <+doy> that's not what that field was meant for
22:36 < Ashenzari> Please, for the love of god, let us disable letter movement. (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=436) by Kyrris
22:40 <@dpeg> what is this?
22:41 <+doy> he wants to be able to disable vi keys
22:41 <+doy> pretty sure this is already possible
22:41 <+doy> although maybe only through macros/bindkeys
22:41 <+doy> never tried it though, so shrug
22:45 < purge> should okawaru be gifting -5 ringmails?
22:45 <+doy> sure, why not?
22:45 < Napkin> cdo has xterm/eterm/rxvt numpad keys mapped to vi-keys for movement
22:45 < purge> seeing as he wants you to fight and i presume win to get piety, seems counter-intuitive
22:47 <@dpeg> item gifts will be fixed some time
22:48 <+doy> will require a lot of rebalancing
22:48 <+doy> just disabling bad gifts now would not be a good solution]
22:50 <@dpeg> I am more thinking of disabling gifts which aren't consumables
22:53 <+doy> could work, but should be thought through, probably
22:53 <+doy> probably at least wait until oka is removed
22:53 <@dpeg> yes, not for 0.6 :)
22:54 <@dpeg> Oka will be changed, not removed
22:54 <+doy> yeah, that
22:55 < TGW> at kyrris FR: doy: yes, you can macro vi-keys away
23:00 < Twinge> I heard someone saying that that was buggy though?  That they could still cause movement sometimes?
23:01 <@dpeg> doy: gifts are only problems with Sif and Oka
23:05 < syllogism> should summoners use summons against other monsters? Something was apparently spamming shadow creatures against my vortices when I wasn't in LOS
23:05 < syllogism> and shadow creatures on this ziggurat level means ancient liches :P
23:06 <+doy> syllogism: i think they should
23:06 <@dpeg> syllogism: it is an indication that your allies fighting somewhere out of LOS now meets resistance :)
23:06 <+doy> otherwise, spammals can take out curse skulls
23:06 < syllogism> yeah, it's fine honestly but a bit absurd here
23:07 < syllogism> I couldn't keep with with abjuration, despite it abjuring everything in LOS every time
23:07 < syllogism> keep up
23:08 <@dpeg> syllogism: just come back later?
23:08 < syllogism> dpeg: it's a ziggurat level :P
23:08 <+doy> syllogism: what's the alternative?
23:08 <@dpeg> syllogism: ah :)
23:09 <@dpeg> all the better
23:09 < syllogism> doy: nothing, this is fine. Was just an observation really, reminded me of 4.1
23:09 <+doy> (:
23:09 <+doy> i mean, whatever it is would be summoning ancient liches at you if you were in los anyway, so
23:09 <+Keskitalo> Mmm, two new blog posts for me to read!
23:10 < syllogism> doy: but it wasn't just one creature and there was no way to stop it from summoning
23:10 <+doy> syllogism: kill it?
23:10 < syllogism> since it has infinite mp and I can't really move towards it
23:10 <+doy> (:
23:10 <+doy> shrug
23:10 <+doy> feels like an edge case, in any case
23:10 < syllogism> definitely
23:11 <+doy> ziggurats have plenty of ridiculous situations
23:14 <@dpeg> yes
23:15 <+Keskitalo> Funny, we just talked about making the help screen show command keys dynamically with felirx, and I think jpeg just coded that in.
23:15 <@dpeg> Keskitalo: yes :)
23:15 <@dpeg> Keskitalo: add him to the CREDITs?
23:16 <+Keskitalo> I've never added anyone to the CREDITS, how is it done?
23:20 <+doy> str 12 int 42 dex 24
23:20 <+doy> how ridiculous
23:21 <+Keskitalo> Draw Shuffle!
23:22 < elly> int 42? yikes
23:23 <@dpeg> how do I get proper text in Mantis?
23:24 <@dpeg> Keskitalo: okay, I can do it
23:24 <@dpeg> what's his name again?
23:24 < Napkin> define "proper text", dpeg
23:24 <+Keskitalo> dpeg: Janne Lahdenperä.
23:25 <+doy> dpeg: if you mean monospaced, use <pre> tags
23:25 <@dpeg> and </pre> ?
23:25 < Napkin> yes
23:25 <@dpeg> thansk
23:27 <+by> !lm * place=bailey s=xl
23:27 < Henzell> 108 milestones for * (place=bailey): 22x 9, 17x 8, 13x 14, 11x 10, 9x 13, 8x 11, 7x 7, 5x 27, 4x 12, 3x 16, 2x 26, 2x 15, 1x 18, 1x 1, 1x 21, 1x 23, 1x 25
23:27 <+by> nemelexers appear to be in the minority
23:28 <+doy> !lm * place=bailey s=god
23:28 < Henzell> 108 milestones for * (place=bailey): 16x Okawaru, 12x Nemelex Xobeh, 11x , 10x Vehumet, 9x Kikubaaqudgha, 9x Trog, 7x Cheibriados, 7x Sif Muna, 7x Makhleb, 5x Fedhas, 4x The Shining One, 3x Feawn, 3x Xom, 2x Elyvilon, 1x Yredelemnul, 1x Lugonu, 1x Jiyva
23:28 <+doy> !lm * place=bailey god!=nemelex xobeh s=xl
23:28 < Henzell> 96 milestones for * (place=bailey god!=nemelex xobeh): 22x 9, 17x 8, 13x 14, 11x 10, 9x 13, 8x 11, 7x 7, 4x 12, 3x 16, 2x 15
23:28 <+doy> !lm * place=bailey god=nemelex xobeh s=xl
23:28 < Henzell> 13 milestones for * (place=bailey god=nemelex xobeh): 6x 27, 2x 26, 1x 1, 1x 21, 1x 23, 1x 25, 1x 18
23:28 <+doy> !lm * place=bailey xl=1
23:28 < Henzell> 1. [2009-12-13] heteroy the Magician (L1 SpWn) entered a Bailey on turn 1703. (Bailey)
23:29 < syllogism> some baileys have awesome loot and some have almost nothing
23:30 <@dpeg> syllogism: yes, it's a bit skewed at the moment
23:30 <@dpeg> and I have no time to repair it properly right now :/
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23:41 < syllogism> pan gate taking you straight into a closed & vault still happens and it's pretty nasty now that teleport can take forever
23:43 <@dpeg> syllogism: was it announced to be fixed?
23:47 -!- nrook_ [n=nrook@68.14.16.167] has joined ##crawl-dev
23:50 <@dpeg> I am adding loot to the potions only bailey. Right now, I am thinking of one guaranteed stack of really good potions. Any ideas apart from 2 gain levels OR 3 cure mutations?
23:50 -!- ZanniqlcKzxkq [n=mick@PROTEUS.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined ##crawl-dev
23:50 <@dpeg> s/level/experience
23:50 <@dpeg> is there anything else of really high value?
23:50 -!- Zannick [n=mick@PROTEUS.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Nick collision from services.]
23:50 -!- ZanniqlcKzxkq is now known as Zannick
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23:50 <@dpeg> ??potion
23:54 <@dpeg> anybody here?
23:54 < Henzell> I don't have a page labeled potion in my learndb.
23:54 -!- Vandal|LT [n=dissiden@cpe-75-185-204-99.woh.res.rr.com] has joined ##crawl-dev
23:54 <@dpeg> ??potions
23:55 <+Keskitalo> Hmmh..
23:55 < Henzell> potions[1/1]: Healing, heal wounds, restore abilities, poison, speed, might, invisibility, levitation, resistance, mutation, slowing, paralysis, confusion, degeneration, cure mutation, berserk rage, strong poison, blood, porridge, gain strength, gain dexterity, gain intelligence, magic, experience, decay, coagulated blood, water.
23:56 <@dpeg> ok, so these two are it
23:56 <@dpeg> anyone knows how good_item compares to * and to | ?
23:56 <+by> gain strength/dex/int
23:57 <@dpeg> by: not sure these are good enough compared to CM and exp... what quantity would work?
23:57 <@dpeg> perhaps 5 or 6?
23:57 <+Keskitalo> dpeg: Rest seem much less universally useful.
23:57 <+by> no idea
23:58 <+Keskitalo> Ah, a huge bunch of those might be interesting. Like 3-4 gain stat vs. 1 gain experience?
23:58 -!- Cryp71c [n=Cryp71c@173-162-21-124-Nashville.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit ["Leaving"]