00:00 -!- Cryp71c [n=Cryp71c@173-162-21-124-Nashville.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
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00:23 <+due> hi
00:23 < Henzell> due: You have 4 messages. Use !messages to read them.
00:23 <+due> !messages
00:23 < Henzell> (1/4) by said (9h 33s ago): according to #256 you implemented berserk monsters ignoring clouds, but syllogism says he had berserk duvessa not ignore a cloud of flame
00:24 <+due> hm, oddd
00:24 <+due> !messages
00:24 < Henzell> (1/3) greensnark said (8h 55m 49s ago): I'm still waiting for Dowan and Duvessa to show up. You can't protect them forever, you know.
00:24 <+due> !messages
00:24 < Henzell> (1/2) greensnark said (4h 23m 54s ago): Mara splat: !lg * ikiller=Mara -tv
00:24 <+due> !!! <3
00:24 <+due> !messages
00:24 < Henzell> (1/1) greensnark said (4h 6m 46s ago): "N78291's illusion throws stone arrow at you." <-- spellcasting messages needed!
00:24 <+due> Hm, indeed.
00:33 < Ashenzari> "Poison Weapon" does not reveal that it only works on weapons with points (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=419) by nrook
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01:07 <+due> It only works on weapons with points? Since when?
01:07 < Cryp71c> git
01:07 < Cryp71c> ??Git
01:07 < Henzell> git[1/1]: git clone git://crawl-ref.git.sourceforge.net/gitroot/crawl-ref/crawl-ref
01:07 <+due> That's odd.
01:07 < Cryp71c> due: hehe I was just looking at that.
01:08 <+due> Though the description does mention "Bladed weapon".
01:08 < Cryp71c> Except I can't find where the description stuff is at.
01:08 <+due> dat/descript/spells.txt, I would suggest
01:09 < Cryp71c> due: ah...that would be why. Was grepping through all the stuff in /source
01:09 <+due> :)
01:10 < Cryp71c> due: has there been any discussion / concensus on smite targetted spells and their targetting operation (LOS vs a pre-set range) in relation to the Fire Storm bug I reported last week?
01:10 <+due> Nope, not that I know of.
01:10 < Cryp71c> Theres no comments on the bug on mantis, but I thought perhaps discussion might've taken place briefly here at some poine.
01:10 < Cryp71c> k
01:10 <+due> You might want to post to the list if you don't get any feedback.
01:11 <+due> You can always check the logs--they're linked in the topic.
01:11 < Cryp71c> due: which list is that?
01:11 <+due> crawl-ref-discuss
01:11 < Cryp71c> ..I don't follow, I'm sorry.
01:11 < Cryp71c> Are you referring to a discussion board, or perhaps a mailing list?
01:12 <+due> http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/crawl-ref-discuss
01:12 <+due> List.
01:12 <+due> Mailing list!
01:13 <+due> !lg * ikiller=mara -tv
01:13 < Henzell> 1. N78291, XL18 NaEE, T:70067 requested for FooTV.
01:13 <+due> Oooh, nice.
01:13 < Cryp71c> http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/crawl-ref-discuss
01:13 < Cryp71c> whoops, my bad.
01:16 < Eronarn> Home.
01:23 <+due> Sigh.
01:23 <+due> I'm kinda six of "XYZ unique is *evil* and *Scary* and shows up too early! They *killed* me! :o :o :o" posts.
01:24 <+doy> me too
01:24 <+due> Orc:4 is relative depth of 13 if Orc stairs are found on D:9.
01:24 <+due> @??orc warlord
01:24 < Gretell> orc warlord (o) | Speed: 10 | HD: 15 | Health: 60-165 | AC/EV: 3/10 | Damage: 32 | Res: magic(60) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 2895.
01:24 <+due> @??aizul
01:24 < Gretell> Aizul (N) | Speed: 15 | HD: 14 | Health: 142 | AC/EV: 8/18 | Damage: 25 | Flags: spellcaster, see invisible | Res: magic(112), poison | Chunks: mutagenic | XP: 2427 | Sp: b.venom, blink other, sleep, poison arrow, minor healing.
01:24 < TGW> you haven't experienced aizul until s/he's camping stairs with a holy great mace
01:24 <+due> TGW: He doesn't get weapons any more.
01:24 < TGW> due: exactly
01:24 < TGW> ignore them
01:24 <+due> Also, he's not as much of a threat as an orc warlord...
01:24 <+due> Or maybe
01:25 <+due> @??orc high priest
01:25 < Gretell> orc high priest (o) | Speed: 10 | HD: 11 | Health: 33-77 | AC/EV: 1/12 | Damage: 7 | Flags: evil, see invisible | Res: magic(58), hellfire | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 1008 | Sp: pain, demon, smiting, animate dead, minor healing.
01:25 <+due> @??orc sorcerer
01:25 < Gretell> orc sorcerer (o) | Speed: 10 | HD: 9 | Health: 18-45 | AC/EV: 5/12 | Damage: 7 | Flags: evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: magic(36), fire | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 633 | Sp: b.fire, b.draining, demon, paralyse, animate dead, teleport self.
01:25 < TGW> sorcerers die easy
01:25 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r96af68df8027 /crawl-ref/source/ (6 files in 4 dirs): Add a new turtle design and use it for the (alligator) snapping turtle.
01:25 <+due> True.
01:27 < Eronarn> i disagree, i'd say aizul is more of a threat than a warlord
01:27 < Eronarn> speed is a huge factor
01:27 < TGW> that, too
01:27 < TGW> speed, spells
01:27 < Eronarn> rPois
01:27 < TGW> that, too
01:27 < TGW> not that he's OOD
01:27 <+due> Orc warlord with a crossbow.
01:27 <+doy> blink other was the main complaint i think
01:28 <+doy> since it means you can't really escape
01:28 <+due> Well, it can probably go.
01:28 <+doy> i don't konw
01:28 <+due> I just thought it was interesting and different, because not many monsters have it.
01:28 <+due> Though with dispersal ammunition...
01:28 <+due> !killsby aizul
01:28 < Henzell> 10 games for * (ckiller=aizul): 2x Xiberia, 1x TGW, 1x Cryptic, 1x Omniguy, 1x nubinia, 1x Eifeltrampel, 1x randart, 1x MarvinPA, 1x Gilly
01:28 <+due> !lg * killer=aizul
01:28 < Henzell> 10. Cryptic the Basher (L13 DSFi), worshipper of Okawaru, blasted by Aizul (poison arrow) on Orc:4 on 2010-01-13, with 43243 points after 27273 turns and 1:50:21.
01:28 <+doy> maybe make it just less frequent?
01:28 <+due> Hm.
01:28 <+doy> make it the emergency spell maybe
01:28 < MarvinPA> both times he killed me i didn't get blinked once that i recall
01:28 <+doy> or something like that
01:29 < MarvinPA> just poison arrows
01:29 < MarvinPA> :(
01:29 <+due> Emergency spell would work.
01:29 -!- Cryp71c [n=rburnham@c-68-53-104-165.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"]
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01:44 <+due> doy: mind replying to the Aizul FR with thoughts?
01:44 <+due> I've knee-jerked and nerfed the depths of some uniques before and found that it just clobbered them beyond belief.
01:47 < TGW> the wide open levels with new lair are kind of out of place
01:47 < TGW> you know, the big ones with puddles and no walls
01:47 <+due> Agree.
01:47 < TGW> I think dungeoney layouts are best
01:47 < TGW> the vaults, the room and corridors
01:48 <+doy> commented
02:09 -!- Cryp71c [n=Cryp71c@c-68-53-104-165.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
02:09 < Cryp71c> in ##crawl
02:10 <+doy> ?
02:11 < Cryp71c> was supposed to be /join ##crawl
02:11 < Cryp71c> and the /jo got cut of
02:11 < Cryp71c> off*
02:19 <+due> My jo usually gets cut off.
02:24 < Eronarn> i hate those wide open puddle levels in general
02:24 <+due> Agree.
02:24 <+due> They're basically a "skip until later" level.
02:24 <+doy> s/until later//
02:24 <+due> I don't mind the normal plan_x level with puddles in it, that's pretty ace.
02:25 <+doy> not like fish give you any xp anyway
02:25 < Eronarn> i wonder if they'd work better with a "water-filled tunnels" layout
02:26 < Eronarn> bunch of bubbles of varying sizes, with connecting passageways that may be filled with shallow or deep water
02:26 < Eronarn> kind of like the new "octopus" Hive layout
02:27 <+due> I like that.
02:27 <+due> doy: Well, yeah, but sometimes you have to explore it in full to find a branch stair.
02:27 <+doy> true
02:28 < Eronarn> another possibility would be a level that is mostly water, but has spiderweb-like passageways criss-crossing
02:29 <+due> We've got something like that, no?
02:29 < TGW> it's not "puddles" per se
02:29 < Eronarn> do we?
02:29 < TGW> it's that water enemies are annoying and boring, and that open levels are annoying and deadly
02:31 < TGW> (is water being looked at?)
02:31 < Eronarn> oh, yeah, we'd definitely need to tone down water monsters with that layout - the problem with the current "open lakes" is that the water monsters suck, but without them it would be a boring layout
02:31 < TGW> well
02:31 <+due> We could have... turtles.
02:31 < TGW> if you add walls
02:32 <+doy> someone who isn't me should go in and give those water levels a chance of being forest levels
02:32 <+doy> just replacing all water with trees
02:32 < TGW> suddenly you have to go near the water, and it becomes interesting again
02:32 <+due> doy: ... <3
02:32 <+due> I love it.
02:32 <+doy> both the pool and the river levels
02:33 <+due> Yeah, that is an excellent idea.
02:33 <+due> I am also still really for clouds passing through trees.
02:33 <+doy> sounds reasonable
02:33 <+doy> in concept anyway
02:33 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r2c5b81c85907 /crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-mon/unique/dissolution.png: Recolour Dissolution. The old colours (green/red) really clashed awfully.
02:34 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r0c88e9b4d4d1 /crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-mon/ (6 files in 2 dirs): Add shadows to mermaid/siren/Ilsuiw tiles.
02:34 < TGW> did jpeg just do a fashion update?
02:43 < Eronarn> due: make tree and cloud LOS blocking identical and then make a misty forest level type where there are clusters of trees all over the place with fog generators that erratically place LOS-blocking clouds
02:44 <+due> Tree and cloud LOS blocking *is* identical.
02:44 <+due> But yes, I want that for the Ukta wizlab. HE has a hut in a misty forest.
02:44 < Eronarn> er, i didn't mean identical, i mean overlapping (so 1 cloud + 1 tree blocks) - haven't had a chance to test that in game
02:46 <+due> Hm.
02:46 <+due> That's an interesting idea.
02:49 < Eronarn> i am still in favor of redoing LOS in general, but that is an easily done small tweak
02:50 <+due> Hm, it should though
02:51 -!- ortoslon [n=chatzill@host-89-31-115-253.academ.org] has joined ##crawl-dev
02:52 <+due> Eronarn: It does.
02:52 <+due> Eronarn: The opacity functions merely register an opacity value for each square.
02:52 <+due> LOS then does calculations based on that.
02:53 <+due> Therefore, a cloud of smoke in front of a tree = OPC_HALF + OPC_HALF.
02:53 < Eronarn> oh, neat
02:53 <+due> So roughly equivent to 2 trees or 2 smoke clouds.
02:53 < Eronarn> that would make the changes i'd like to see pretty easy
02:53 < Eronarn> i didn't realize the code already handles it that way
02:53 <+due> Yeah, the way it currently *doesn't* handle is varying opacity dependent on actor.
02:54 < Eronarn> like, something being able to see through clouds, you mean?
02:57 <+due> Yeah.
02:57 <+due> LOS blocked for the player = LOS blocked for monsters.
03:00 <+due> Asymmetry here would require a few changes, as well, because there's at least a small amount of code (that I can think of) that assumes that if you.can_see(monster->pos()), then monster.can_see(you.pos())
03:01 <+sorear> dpeg, too
03:01 < Eronarn> would it be possible to do something like return LOS as "yes" "no" "no, (reason)" rather than "yes" "no"
03:02 <+due> sorear: yeah
03:02 <+sorear> !fight Aizul v orc warlord
03:02 <+due> Eronarn: Ask Rob, my understanding of it is superficial.
03:02 <+due> Heh.
03:03 < Eronarn> i could go take a glance at it, but i should really do some work some time tonight
03:03 <+due> 2 14.
03:03 <+due> Maybe 13 is a bit early.
03:04 < Eronarn> but it seems to me that could be a good way to deal with the essentially special-case things that would be able to see through
03:04 <+due> Or not.
03:04 <+due> @??Stone giant
03:04 < Gretell> stone giant (C) | Speed: 10 | HD: 16 | Health: 48-128 | AC/EV: 12/2 | Damage: 45 | Res: magic(85) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 2033.
03:04 <+due> On second thoughts
03:04 <+due> Stone giants are not uncommon spawns on Orc:4.
03:05 <+sorear> orc warlord band >> aizul
03:05 < Eronarn> due: the real problem with aizul on orc 4 is the possibility of getting poison arrow'd like 3 or 4 times with no PR
03:05 <+due> True.
03:05 <+due> I'm unwilling to nerf him further, though.
03:05 < Eronarn> you shouldn't! :)
03:05 <+due> 10 v 7 for stone giant.
03:05 <+sorear> let's nerf Cryp71c
03:05 <+due> I think moving blink other to emergency slot should be fine.
03:06 < Eronarn> you should re-introduce guardian nagas so aizul can be one
03:07 <+sorear> or we could just make him a guardian naga regardless
03:08 <+sorear> we don't have monocles but that doesn't stop Frederick from wearing one
03:08 <+sorear> while we're there, Wayne should be reverted to a dwarf
03:08 < Eronarn> should add a new dwarf genus
03:09 <+due> sorear: Yeah, but then his backstory is fucked.
03:09 <+due> It still makes me grind my teeth when I think of the "guardian naga isn't *that* much of his backstory and flavour" posts.
03:09 < Eronarn> yes, only "all of"
03:09 < Eronarn> that isn't much
03:10 <+due> Also, c-r-d can be amazingly patronising at times. Oh well.
03:10 <+due> Win some and lose some. I got to name Cheibriados.
03:10 <+due> And we got TURTLES
03:11 < Eronarn> i should send my fedhas proposal to c-r-d
03:11 <+due> ... we need to overhaul Fedhas?
03:12  * due shoots Eronarn's giant-spore-high-horse.
03:12 < Eronarn> due: not just the giant spores
03:12 <+due> Too late, I shot that high horse.
03:13 -!- Eronarn [n=ero@ip72-192-30-30.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"]
03:13 <+due> You could raise it as a zombie, though.
03:13 <+due> Hehe.
03:13 <+due> I think I pissed him off.
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03:16 < Eronarn> blah.
03:16 <+due> Wrong window?
03:16 < Eronarn> no, irssi has started crashing intermittently
03:17 <+due> Weird
03:17 <+due> That was "lost terminal" quit though
03:17 <+due> Are you sure it's irssi?
03:17 < Eronarn> well, it could be putty
03:17 < Eronarn> but it kills irssi.exe at the same time anyhow, so
03:17 <+due> Oh.
03:18 <+due> irssi on windows?
03:18 <+due> That could be the issue.
03:18 <+due> Why not get a shell somewhere?
03:18 < Eronarn> windows is often an issue :)
03:18 < Eronarn> effort
03:18 <+due> Ah
03:19 <+due> I got sick and tired of bumming shells off friends who would open my screen sessions and use my op powers to kick people, so I bought a shell.
03:19 < Eronarn> initially i was going to hook up an older laptop and use that for irssi but i couldn't get it to be stable. going to buy a server eventually but can't quite justify it yet
03:20 < Eronarn> i need to get one for work so what i'm thinking i'll do is get one myself, give work a virtual machine on it
03:22 < Eronarn> that should work until work's load gets big enough that they need the full machine themselves, at which point i should have more income anyways :)
03:23 < Eronarn> anyways, wrt fedhas: i actually have some problem with *all* of the abilities right now. To me, the god feels like an ellipse when I'm looking for a circle.
03:24 <+sorear> you will spend a great deal of time looking, my friend, if you want a circle that is not an ellipse
03:26 -!- Twinge- is now known as Twinge
03:26 < Eronarn> yes, but i can't remember any of the terms for the comparison i wanted to make, unfortunately
03:27 < Eronarn> and don't feel like wiking at the moment
03:27 < TGW> sorear: he's saying he only wants a subset of fed's abilities
03:31 < Eronarn> TGW: nah.
03:38 < CIA-81> greensnark * r3568100f8f0a /crawl-ref/ (CREDITS.txt source/util/columnise-credits.pl): Add Robert Burnham to credits (dpeg).
03:41 <+greensnark> Eronarn is so overwhelmed by the awesomeness of ballistomycetes that real life without huge endearing clusters of them has become unbearable.
03:41 < Eronarn> "awesomeness"
03:41 <+greensnark> I had a little outbreak of ballistos the other day
03:41 <+greensnark> It felt like pulling weeds in the garden
03:41 < eith> heh
03:42 <+greensnark> Go back ten turns later, they're back leering at you
03:42 < Eronarn> greensnark: >15 ballistos on screen at once in a non-open level = good times!!
03:43 < Eronarn> I don't know what dpeg sees in the things. They would be much more interesting at a tactical level than a strategic one
03:44 <+due> greensnark!
03:45 <+due> Eronarn: They're cool.
03:45 < Eronarn> due: thematically, sure. Not as currently implemented
03:45 <+greensnark> I think spores are just a little too eager to drop them now
03:45 <+greensnark> I had to follow the backtrail of the spore and kill off everything I met :P
03:46 <+greensnark> Dog walking, back in a bit.
03:46 < Eronarn> sorear: did my scale suggestion make sense, by the way?
03:46 <+due> Spores have an issue with premature detonation.
03:47 <+due> Anyway, when they travel, they should only have a really minute chance of placing spores.
03:47 <+due> I liked doy's proposal on it.
03:49 < TGW> fed should have an ability that spawns ballistos all over
03:50 < TGW> and makes enemies X^f over and over trying to get them all
03:58 <+greensnark> due: May I just say Mara was awesome in that zipcode game <3
03:58 <+greensnark> Misled <3 <3 <3
03:59 <+greensnark> I particularly liked the peaceful hellions from Fedhas :P
04:00 <+due> I KNOW.
04:00 <+due> I thought that was awesome.
04:00 <+due> I was so worried about the "Zomg interface break!" backlash, but it went well.
04:01 <+greensnark> And where's my quota of D&D encounters, may I know?
04:02 <+due> We could futz their weight if you really, really want.
04:03 < TGW> Za. doesn't repeat if you have no target
04:03 <+due> "if you.name() == greensnark then weight(100) end"?
04:03 <+greensnark> Let me run the numbers on D:1-13 uniques
04:03 < TGW> like, if you're trying to shoot at something underwater you have to Za. manually rather than `````
04:03 < TGW> is that a bug?
04:03 < TGW> or an FR?
04:03 < TGW> I don't remember that happening in stable
04:04 <+due> ` is really, really buggy.
04:05 -!- Chapayev [n=asalch@c-68-50-239-219.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
04:05 <+doy> due: yes
04:05 <+due> Like, buggy beyond *belief*.
04:06 <+greensnark> Napkin: cao keeps fetching cdo logfile so often because Henzell now fetches the logfile each time it sees Gretell make an announcement so that !lg, !lm, etc work immediately for cdo games. Is it hitting cdo too often?
04:07 < TGW> greensnark: by the way, you're awesome
04:08 <+greensnark> Thanks :P
04:08 <+due> Hey, aren't I awesome? :(
04:08 <+greensnark> You're awesome too <3
04:09 <+due> :D <3
04:09 <+due> Apparently I have an addiction to interface-destroying code. Mara, thick gloom...
04:10 <+greensnark> Is thick gloom used yet?
04:10  * greensnark wants thick gloom.
04:10 < Chapayev> is thick gloom a new cloud type?
04:11 < TGW> p'raps mislead should swap around enemies while you're not looking
04:11 < TGW> less interface-breaking and more mind-breaking then
04:11 <+due> Chapayev: Yeah. It clumps, is long-lasting if it sticks around in clumps, and it has no glyph.
04:12 <+due> It just colours the ground.
04:12 <+due> Also, a Chapayev! I thought they were extinct.
04:12 <+doy> maybe mara should get dispersal
04:12 <+doy> (:
04:12 <+due> ...
04:12 <+due> doy, that is an excellent idea.
04:12 < Chapayev> due: hey, i wish i were around more, just so much work to do i haven't had the time for crawl :(:(
04:12 <+due> Chapayev: Yeah. I IRC from work, so I'm online, but I'm pretty busy myself.
04:12 < TGW> does normal rak summon do anything to obscure the original?
04:13 < Chapayev> i'm in the same business as dpeg and i have no idea how he has time to be so active in developing crawl
04:13 <+doy> TGW: summons are indistinguishable from the original
04:13 < TGW> doy: well, yes
04:13 < TGW> but theoretically you can record the original's space?
04:13 <+due> You could, but they blink.
04:13 <+doy> @??rakshasa
04:13 < Gretell> rakshasa (R) | Speed: 10 | HD: 10 | Health: 30-80 | AC/EV: 10/14 | Damage: 20 | Flags: demonic, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: magic(133), poison | XP: 1070 | Sp: rakshasa summon, blink, invisibility, teleport self.
04:13 <+doy> yeah, they blink
04:13 <+doy> @??fake rakshasa 
04:13 < Gretell> unknown monster: "fake rakshasa"
04:13 <+due> @??mara
04:13 < Gretell> Mara (R) | Speed: 10 | HD: 20 | Health: 140 | AC/EV: 10/14 | Damage: 30 | Flags: demonic, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: magic(213), elec++, poison | XP: 7532 | Sp: mislead, mara summon, b.lightning, player ghost, pain, teleport self.
04:13 < TGW> s'pose so
04:14 <+due> Mara clones are literally identical, down to the weapon enchants and equipment and their own enchantments.
04:14 <+due> So, if you use sunlight on mara to glow him--any clones summoned will be the same.
04:14 <+due> They also have the same curhp.
04:14 < TGW> ooh
04:15 < Chapayev> due: how is the long-lastingness of gloom determined when it's in clumps? sounds like an opportunity to work in one of these cellular automata games, like the plants in adom
04:15 <+due> Chapayev: If it has three gloom cloud neighbours, the dissipaton value is increased instead of decreased.
04:16 <+greensnark> Hey, a Chapayev sighting. Last seen in the Triassic, I believe.
04:16 <+due> If it has less than three neighbours, then it dissipates the next turn (or that turn).
04:16 < Chapayev> due: okay, it's already one of these cellular automata games :) sounds good
04:16 < Eronarn> i would love it if crawl added ADOM-style plants
04:16 < CIA-81> greensnark * r11aaef4f436e /crawl-ref/source/ (mon-data.h mon-pick.cc): Shoals monster changes: more harpies, weaken impalers, alligator snapping turtles, sea snakes.
04:17 <+due> I hate harpies.
04:17 <+due> They basically destroy Spriggans.
04:17 < Chapayev> eronarn: sounds like that's what the gloom clouds are, pretty much
04:17 < Eronarn> Chapayev: no, i mean actual plants - a new type of plant
04:17 <+due> Does conservation work against them?
04:17 < Eronarn> doubt it
04:17 <+due> Also, Eronarn, how about an escape spell that summons a firestorm-sized cloud of gloom on the monster, who then blinks away.
04:17 < Eronarn> I wonder if throwing your food lets you bypass harpies
04:18 <+due> Yeah.
04:18 <+due> I just leave it on the Shoals stairs for Sprigs.
04:18 <+due> Well, anyone, really.
04:18 < Chapayev> have you dudes (the devs) ever changed the dungeon generation code so that it tries to fill up all possible space with vaults? i did this, and it was awesome
04:18 < Eronarn> I wonder why it was even changed to affect food you drop, then
04:18 < Chapayev> i mean i did it on a local copy i was messing around with
04:18 <+due> Chapayev: No, but we're going that way for the Vault branch.
04:18 <+due> It's basically going to be rectangular vaults, with stairs, monsters, everything generating inside of them, and barely anything outside.
04:19 <+due> And the only vaults that are allowed are those that fit in the schema. (Well, I think this should be the case, otherwise they'll clobber the subvaults.)
04:19 < Chapayev> due: that's appropriate when it's called "vaults" :)
04:19 < Eronarn> due: it would be kind of neat to have some vaults levels where all the rectangles are identically sized and placed in a grid
04:19 <+due> Eronarn: Sure, I was planning something like this.
04:19 <+due> I want to get rid of plan_4 in Vaults-branch.
04:20 < Eronarn> also neat would be a vaults level where all the up stairs are on the (outside/inside) of a bunch of nested boxes
04:20 <+doy> the rooms in vaults should start small-ish (4x4 or so), and get larger as you descend
04:20 <+due> doy: Also highly doable.
04:20 <+doy> with vault:8 being the last step of that progression
04:20 <+due> You could do calculations against you.absdepth()
04:20 <+doy> yeah
04:20 < Eronarn> doy: down stairs => "You feel boxed in."
04:20 <+doy> which one is plan_4?
04:20 <+due> Ugly, will generate a map, one sec
04:21 < TGW> duvessa almost just killed me at XL 14
04:21 <+due> TGW: You should've let her kill you.
04:21 < TGW> otoh dowan had a robe of resistance, so it's cool
04:21 <+due> Oh, *crap*.
04:22 < TGW> exactly how heinous IS draining?
04:22 <+due> I committed the code with the commented out _city_level only BRANCH_VAULTS.
04:22 <+due> ... should I leave it as-is?
04:22 < TGW> I can't find the original "YOU'RE LEVEL 14" anywhere
04:22 <+doy> due: meaning...?
04:22 <+due> doy: I commented out the plan_4 chances so that I could do a sane generation of the vaults layout.
04:22 <+due> For comparison.
04:22 <+due> I forgot to uncomment it out.
04:22 <+due>         //if (one_chance_in(3))
04:22 <+due>         _city_level(level_number);
04:22 <+due>         //else
04:22 <+due>         //    _plan_main(level_number, 4);
04:27 < CIA-81> due * r922df58a50d1 /crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: Remove accidentally committed test weights on layout selection.
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05:08 < Cryp71c> sorear, I return, and contest your nerfing me.
05:13 < Eronarn> what do i have to do to enter it
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05:19 < Ashenzari> Wrong amulet icons in trunk (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=420) by sigmund
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07:17 <+Keskitalo> Morning!
07:18 -!- purge [n=IceChat7@d192-24-82-173.try.wideopenwest.com] has joined ##crawl-dev
07:19 <+Keskitalo> Hi purge!
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07:20 < purge> Hey keskitalo
07:22 <+due> Keskitalo, purge! Hi.
07:22 <+Keskitalo> Heya due!
07:22 < purge> Hi due!
07:22 <+due> Keskitalo: Probably would be best to do "in progress" portal vaults in another branch!
07:22 <+due> I'll delete the wizlab branch when I'm finished.
07:23 <+Keskitalo> due: Okay.
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07:24 <+Keskitalo> Napkin: I just removed my first unplayed trunk build <3
07:24 < purge> hehe the tile for the alligator snapping turtle looks cute! i want to pet it!
07:25 <+Keskitalo> Careful, it'll snap!!
07:25 <+Keskitalo> Must check that out. :)
07:25 < purge> a clever deception
07:25 < purge> :)
07:26 <+greensnark> Autozerk is already driving me up the wall :P
07:28 <+due> I haven't seen it yet!
07:28 <+due> I keep meaning to look.
07:29 <+Keskitalo> What is autozerk?
07:29 <+Keskitalo> Would this be a good time to update CDO?
07:29 < purge> ooo greensnark is playing and hes beyond lair!!! :)
07:29 < purge> wtf omg i just turned it on
07:29 <+greensnark> :P
07:30 <+greensnark> That was a suicide dive anyway :P
07:30 <+greensnark> I wonder who the unique that was not Francis was :P
07:30 <+greensnark> !log 
07:30 < Henzell> 435. greensnark, XL13 HaWn, T:25561: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/greensnark/morgue-greensnark-20100114-062946.txt
07:30 < purge> yeah when i saw shoals that was the next thing i multitasked back to look at.. your level
07:30 < purge> but you were dead :P
07:30 <+greensnark> Norris :P
07:33 <+Keskitalo> Hmh, tiles build borks.
07:40 <+Keskitalo> It errors locally too, although that didn't halt building.
07:40 <+greensnark> The tiles makefile gets all cut up on Mac if you've installed SDL or freetype or libpng using MacPorts
07:42 <+Keskitalo> Speaking of cutting up, corpse tiles are auto-generated, right?
07:42 <+greensnark> Electric eel chunks should taste tingly
07:42 <+Keskitalo> <3
07:42 <+greensnark> Keskitalo: I think so
07:43 <+Keskitalo> That's pretty cool.
07:44 <+Keskitalo> Aww, the turtle tiles are so cute.
07:45 <+Keskitalo> The turtle altar is too. Johanna's great at turtles.
07:48 <+due> The alligator turtle isn't... alligator-y enough.
07:49 <+due> We need irukandji jellyfish.
07:49 <+greensnark> Sperm whales
07:50 <+greensnark> They could eat the eels :P
07:50 <+greensnark> And there could be massive fights between orca and kraken
07:50 <+greensnark> :P
07:50 <+Keskitalo> What the hell. my source/contrib/install/lib, whatever that is, says Permission denied to anything I try, including make distclean and now just make wizard TILES=y too. AAAARRRGGh
07:50 <+greensnark> nubinia was trying to do shoals with a hand axe
07:50 <+doy> heh
07:51 <+Keskitalo> It also says that to "ls"..
07:52 <+greensnark> If you don't have any local changes, rm -rf contrib; git checkout -f and run submodule update --init again :P
07:52 <+greensnark> git submodules are pretty lame
07:53 <+doy> you probably ran some command as root accidentally
07:53 <+doy> and it messed up permissions
07:53 <+Keskitalo> I'm on msysgit
07:53 <+doy> oh
07:54 <+doy> no clue then
07:54 <+doy> (:
07:54 <+greensnark> I've seen submodules get messed up if you switch to 0.5 branch and back
07:54 <+greensnark> submodules just seem to have too many moving parts -- it's more like a plumbing layer than something intended for end users
07:54 <+Keskitalo> I've been switching between wizlab and master
07:55 <+doy> yeah, the concept behind submodules is fine
07:55 <+doy> just need to make it more transparent to use
07:56 <+due> wizlab shouldn't touch submodules...
07:56 <+due> Keskitalo: Are you doing a wizlab for me? <#
07:56 <+Keskitalo> due: Nope, but thanks for the ice cream cone!
07:56 <+due> Aw!
07:57 <+due> Oh well.
07:58 <+due> What say we make hive bubbles of honeycomb/latticed wax?
07:59 <+Keskitalo> Sounds good to me!
07:59 <+due> Did borsuk respond to my whinge on the wiki?
07:59 <+due> I complained about him calling Shoals and the Desert idea "Disgusting".
08:00 <+Keskitalo> greensnark: Didn't help. :/
08:01 <+Keskitalo> Well, rm -rf contrib still complains about the install/lib.
08:01 <+greensnark> due: What was he disgusted by? :)
08:01 <+due> greensnark: The fact that the dungeon is supposed to be underground, and that these branches flaunt this without "having the decency to disguise them as portal vaults".
08:02 < Napkin> moin guys
08:02 <+greensnark> Heh
08:02 <+due> Napkin!
08:02 <+greensnark> Yeah, he tends to be very aggressive with his opinions
08:02 < Napkin> :)
08:02 <+due> I was having a bad day too :)
08:02 <+due> !
08:02 <+due> Alligator snapping turtles have spiky shells!
08:03 <+Keskitalo> Hi Napkin!
08:03 < Napkin> no, greensnark, logfile fetching is fine. i was just a bit surprised :D
08:03 < Napkin> Keskitalo :)
08:03 <+Keskitalo> Hmm, update-cdo says Could not figure out version tags. Installation cancelled.
08:03 <+due> I think we need to rename Stone Soup to Turtle Soup.
08:04 <+Keskitalo> 922df58
08:04 <+due> This may have something to do with Adam's changing the TAG_MAJOR to a #define instead of an enum.
08:04 <+due> Maybe not, though.
08:04 < Napkin> heh
08:04 < Napkin> i'll have a look once i'm at work
08:05 <+sorear> Ick.
08:05 <+Keskitalo> Yay, I could remove the install/lib thing after quitting msysgit.
08:05 <+sorear> Remind me again why Adam is using the preprocessor for TAG_MAJOR stuff?
08:05 <+due> sorear: I asked about it in here, but he said that they weren't ever used as enums.
08:06 <+sorear> ...
08:06 <+Keskitalo> due: Spikes should be easy to add, and also help distinguish the turtle types better from each other.
08:07 <+due> ##crawl-dev.2010-01-12.log:06:45 <+kilobyte> no, I just changed it from an enum to a #define
08:07 <+due> ##crawl-dev.2010-01-12.log:06:45 <+kilobyte> its enumness was never used
08:07 <+due> Keskitalo: YEs.
08:07 <+Keskitalo> And they'd make the cute cute turtle sooo badass, awwww.
08:07 <+due> greensnark: We also need baby snapping turtles.
08:07 <+due> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Babysnappingturtle.jpg
08:07 <+Keskitalo> For Sewer. ;_;
08:08 <+due> YESS.
08:08 <+sorear> due: I guess I'm the only one here who considers enums inherently better than defines, then
08:08 <+due> sorear: I have no opinion either way, but if you reckon they're better than defines, you are usually correct.
08:08 <+Keskitalo> It's inherently better when server updates don't get broken! :)
08:09 < Napkin> dooh.. yeah - script can't figure out TAG_MAJOR_VERSION
08:10 <+due> Keskitalo: Exactly my feeling.
08:13 < Napkin> gee.. i'm blind.. why is this sed not working?
08:13 < Napkin> ---
08:13 < Napkin> crawl@ipx14623:~/source/crawl-git/crawl-ref> grep "#define TAG_MAJOR_VERSION[[:space:]]*[[:digit:]]*" source/tags.h
08:13 < Napkin> #define TAG_MAJOR_VERSION  16
08:14 < Napkin> crawl@ipx14623:~/source/crawl-git/crawl-ref> grep "#define TAG_MAJOR_VERSION[[:space:]]*[[:digit:]]*" source/tags.h | sed 's/.*\([[:digit:]]*\)/\1/'
08:14 < Napkin> crawl@ipx14623:~/source/crawl-git/crawl-ref>
08:14 < Napkin> ---
08:15 <+due> Does sed use :digit:?
08:15 < Napkin> yes
08:15 <+due> Cool.
08:15 <+greensnark> My usual policy is to recommend never using sed when you can use perl :P
08:15 < Napkin> this worked fine previously: grep "TAG_MAJOR_VERSION[[:space:]]*=" source/tags.h | sed 's/.*[[:space:]]*\([[:digit:]]*\).*/\1/'
08:15 <+due> Won't that version also work?
08:15 <+greensnark> GNU sed and BSD sed are so different they make you want to kill everyone involved 
08:15 <+due> Oh, equals.
08:15 <+due> greensnark: Agree.
08:16 <+due> greensnark: It's almost as bad as GNU tar and Solaris tar.
08:16 <+due> Well.
08:16 <+due> Maybe worse, but that's the one that always kills me.
08:16 <+greensnark> Ugh, Solaris
08:16 <+due> Solaris is like the devil personified.
08:16 <+greensnark> Solaris userland is some kind of karmic punishment :P
08:16 < Napkin> seems to be to early for me - can't fix that sed :-O
08:17 <+greensnark> Napkin: Because there is no = in TAG_MAJOR_VERSION any more?
08:17 <+greensnark> I think kilobyte changed it to a #define TAG_MAJOR_VERSION <cowversion>
08:17 < Napkin> in the sed neither
08:17 <+greensnark> But your grep has it :P
08:17 <+due> cowversion?
08:17 < Napkin> no
08:18 < Napkin> look above :-P
08:18 <+due> As opposed to pigversion? Or bullversion?
08:18 <+due> greensnark: That's the old one.
08:18 < Napkin> i posted the new and the old line
08:18 <+greensnark> Oh, I misunderstood
08:19 < Napkin> heh - sed interprets "#" as digit :-O
08:19 <+due> Heh, nice.
08:19 <+due> Making it [[0-9]] works
08:19 <+due> Kinda.
08:20 <+greensnark> I think it's just greediness
08:20 <+due> Why not just enclose the grep digit in brackets and use the --only flag?
08:20 <+greensnark> perl -pe 's/.*?(\d+)/$1/'
08:20 <+greensnark> Death to sed :P
08:21 < Napkin> using [[0-9]]* matches "6" only - instead of 16
08:21 <+due> Yeah, weird.
08:21 <+greensnark> Napkin: Greedines fail
08:21 <+greensnark> You have .* in front, no?
08:21 <+greensnark> That'll match the whole string
08:21 < Napkin> sed 's/.*[[:space:]]*\([[0-9]]*\)/\1/'
08:21 < Napkin> no, i don't ;)
08:22 < Napkin> it should match greedy until the white-space
08:22  * greensnark prefers Perl to ugly [[:space:]] POSIX :P
08:22 < Napkin> shut up about perl :-P
08:22 <+due> but if there is whitespace after the numbers, surely it'll match until then?
08:22 <+greensnark> Perl ftw
08:22 < Napkin> go away, greensnark 
08:22 <+doy> perl++
08:22 <+greensnark> Yay yay yay Perl :)
08:22 <+due> Anyway, perl-haters convention here.
08:22 <+due> <3 python more
08:22 <+doy> due: well, you're obviously wrong
08:23 <+greensnark> Python's regex support was obviously designed by people who worship pain
08:23 <+due> I don't use regexps in python very often, yeah.
08:23 <+greensnark> I want to do a simple regex match and it's all import re; re.match(yakkow, cowcowhopeyouremembertheordermoooooo)
08:23 <+Keskitalo> Is that like Kiku* worshippers?
08:24 < Napkin> fixed, Keskitalo 
08:24 <+Keskitalo> Napkin: <3
08:24 <+due> Hooray napkin!
08:24 < Napkin> in spite of the flame-war here :-P
08:24 < Napkin> off to work o/
08:24  * due gets the fire extinguisher.
08:25 <+due> Flame war death!
08:25 <+Keskitalo> Master branch on CDO updated to: 0.6.0-a1-2249-g922df58 (16.0)
08:25 <+due> Speaking of python...
08:25 < Napkin> can there be some comment added to the code?
08:26 <+doy> who's speaking of python
08:26 <+doy> they should stop that
08:26 <+due> I like python.
08:26 < Napkin> like.. "let cdo-updaters know on syntax changes here"
08:26 <+due> Why can't we just revert the change?
08:27 <+greensnark> Napkin: <3
08:30 < Ashenzari> Summon scorpions can summon frogs? (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=421) by Kyrris
08:31 <+Keskitalo> This is horrible.. I'm going to kill a turtle, just to see how it looks when it's dead. ;_;
08:32 <+Keskitalo> We need a loading bar for the tiles splash screen. :>
08:32 <+due> That would be nice.
08:35 <+due> sorear: So, do we get "Duvessa (berserk)" and "while asleep" for Henzell? :D
08:36 <+Keskitalo> ---
08:36 <+Keskitalo> #define TAG_MAJOR_START     5
08:36 <+Keskitalo> Argh.
08:36 <+due> Wrong clipboard?
08:37 <+Keskitalo>  // Let CDO updaters know if the syntax changes.
08:37 <+Keskitalo> #define TAG_MAJOR_START     5
08:37 <+Keskitalo> #define TAG_MAJOR_VERSION  16
08:37 <+Keskitalo> ---
08:37 <+Keskitalo> That ok?
08:38 <+due> More like
08:38 <+due> "If you change this, please do."? :D
08:38 <+Keskitalo> Pretty much as requested, so I suppose. :)
08:38 <+Keskitalo> Well, I don't have an opinion on if enums or defines are better than the other, and the cdo script is already changed, so..
08:39 <+due> That was supposed to be "please die".
08:39 <+due> Whoops.
08:39 <+due> Apparently my fingers prevent me from pejorative language.
08:41 <+Keskitalo> Heh. :)
08:41 <+Keskitalo> How do I push certain commits, but not others?
08:42 <+doy> you move the others onto a branch
08:43 <+due> I did that with my vaults commit :D I was so proud.
08:43 <+doy> (:
08:43 <+due> I reverted my current head and then cherry-picked the commits out of my reflog.
08:44 <+due> And then started a new branch with the vaults commit.
08:48 <+due> (Is that right?)
08:48 <+Keskitalo> Hmh, would need to figure out that stuff a bit.. maybe I'll just push anyway, those commits are chaos/silver/zin stuff.. just not the non-tweak stuff I promised myself I would do before committing. :)
08:48 <+due> Hehe.
08:48 <+due> Keskitalo: "git reset --hard HEAD^^" or however many ^^ you need to get rid of them
08:49 <+due> and then git cherry-pick <the commits you want to push>
08:49 <+due> then push, then you can cherry-pick the rest of the commits that you didn't want to push
08:49 <+due> (git reflog)
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08:53 <+Keskitalo> due: Thanks, I'll try that out!
08:53 <+due> You can also use git checkout -b <new branch> <commit>
08:54 <+Keskitalo> Is Zot trap noise level-wide?
08:54 <+due> It should be.
08:55 <+Keskitalo> due: That's handy. I'll do that, I should have a local branch for the silver/chaos/zin stuff anyway.
08:57 <+due> Keskitalo: Any WizLab ideas? :D
08:58 <+due> Okay, back later.
09:09 <+Keskitalo> Cute, you can throw (darts) in pig form.
09:10 <+Keskitalo> The coloured ugly thing tiles are good.
09:16 < CIA-81> Keskitalo * r80d258a61485 /crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-corpse.txt: Fix turtle corpse tile.
09:17 < CIA-81> Keskitalo * r06c710f9138e /crawl-ref/source/tags.h: Add a comment.
09:23 <+greensnark> One of the Makhleb overflow altar can get eels in the water :P
09:23 <+greensnark> On D:2
09:23 <+greensnark> I had to slam the door in a hurry :P
09:24 <+Keskitalo> Being able to live to tell sounds ok for overflow altars. :)
09:24 <+greensnark> I was lucky the eel was checking its makeup in a mirror :P
09:24 <+Keskitalo> hehe
09:24 <+greensnark> Normally they shoot first and ask questions afterwards :P
09:25 <+Keskitalo> Yeah, I suppose the zaps can be one-shot around then?
09:29 <+greensnark> If you get a bounce, yeah
09:29 <+greensnark> Or if you're very low on hp
09:32 < Twinge> You don't even need to be very low on HP; you might only be level 2, which is low enough for a one-shot without bounce I believe, for many (most?) races
09:34 < CIA-81> haranp * rd1be6c4ccbdf /crawl-ref/source/spells2.cc: Code cleanups.
09:37 <+due> Hi
09:37 <+Keskitalo> wb, due
09:37 < CIA-81> Keskitalo * re37165ecd6db /crawl-ref/source/dat/altar.des: Add no_monster_gen tag to the generic overflow altar vault. It could produce electric eels on D:2, and could produce lava snakes, I figure, which is a little nasty. (greensnark)
09:37 <+due> Hi
09:38 <+due> Which is amusing considering some of the overflow vaults have massively OOD monsters.
09:38 <+Keskitalo> Yeah, but those are themed and stuff.
09:39 < purge> due: i submitted a pikel tile and jpeg replied but didn't add?
09:39 <+due> I think she did?
09:40  * purge checks
09:40 < purge> status is still 'new' anyways
09:41 <+greensnark> Keskitalo: Nooo! I didn't want it changed!
09:41 <+Keskitalo> Mwahahaha
09:41 < purge> due: nope she didn't use it
09:41 <+due> Oh.
09:41 <+greensnark> D:5 and still no uniques
09:41  * greensnark fixes due with a piercing state.
09:41 <+greensnark> Er, stare
09:42 < purge> due: i think she is waiting for others opinions
09:42 <+greensnark> And the Zin diet is causing me to lose weight fast!
09:42 <+greensnark> Not that I wanted to lose weight :P
09:42 <+Keskitalo> greensnark: I though it was inappropriate any case.. for an actual Makhleb overflow altar, I'd have tweaked the depth, but it was the general altar, and I don't think e.g. an Ely altar with eels in it is good. :)
09:42 <+greensnark> Stupid Zin
09:43 <+greensnark> Poison darts are amusingly strong
09:43 <+greensnark> In 0.5 I'd hve fled screaming from an orc wiz
09:43 < purge> greensnark: your diet will be worth it once you get sanctuary
09:43 < Mu_> first time i've heard someone complain of too few uniques:p
09:43 <+greensnark> Now I just hit it with two darts and it diiiiies
09:43 <+due> Mu_: Greensnark just complains. ;)
09:43 <+greensnark> No point trying to conceal this sinister conspiracy to deny me my daily uniques
09:43 <+greensnark> I read due's malign intentions like a book
09:44 <+greensnark> He is trying to protect D&D from me :P
09:44 <+Keskitalo> purge: Well, I added one. :)
09:44 <+greensnark> Can we get more arrows from disarming traps? :P
09:44 < purge> keskitalo: number 2 glowless?
09:44 <+greensnark> I got three from this trap
09:44 < purge> thats the one jpeg liked best anyways
09:45 <+due> greensnark: http://sprunge.us/VAIS I can committ :)
09:45 <+due> VAIS? Any relation to VALIS?
09:45 -!- ortoslon [n=chatzill@host-89-31-115-253.academ.org] has joined ##crawl-dev
09:45 <+Keskitalo> purge: Yeah. Clarified the comment.
09:45 <+Keskitalo> Hi ortoslon, just watched the Sigmund must die video. :)
09:46 < purge> thanks keskitalo :D
09:46 < ortoslon> o
09:46 <+Keskitalo> greensnark: Poison Weapon is pretty great for AM.
09:46 <+greensnark> Ooh, longbow
09:46 < ortoslon> you can watch my doomrl playthrough in HD
09:48 < purge> pillar dancing for too long should make you confused :)
09:49 <+Keskitalo> git log -- filename isn't working for me..
09:50 <+due> Try rmeoving the --?
09:53 <+Keskitalo> It then errors and suggest using the --. git version says 1.6.4, that should be current?
09:53 <+due> Hm
09:53 <+due> Odd
09:53 <+Keskitalo> What do you know, got the wrong filename. :D
09:54 <+due> Hehehe
09:55 <+due> greensnark: Do I commit it?
09:56 <+Keskitalo> I have a nasty idea.. marking insane uniques (Crazy Yiuf, Psyche) unclean (for Zin to disapprove on).
09:56 <+due> Please do.
09:56 <+kilobyte> due: it checks for an uppercased name, in this case, lowercased is correct
09:59 <+due> kilobyte: lowercase what?
09:59 <+greensnark> due: No, don't bother :P
09:59 <+kilobyte> in http://sprunge.us/VAIS
09:59 <+due> ah
09:59 <+greensnark> Also it should be 'greensnark', not capitalised
10:00 <+due> I hadn't tested it yet.
10:00 <+greensnark> Or what kilobyte said
10:00 <+due> ;)
10:02 <+greensnark> Oh, also, that wouldn't work right unless it were in the prelude
10:02 <+Keskitalo> hee hee.
10:02 <+greensnark> prelude {{ if you.name() == 'greensnark' then weight(500) end }}
10:03 <+greensnark> Using a prelude is the only way to change PLACE:/CHANCE:/WEIGHT:/TAGS: etc based on something about the current game
10:03 <+greensnark> Otherwise all of those are set up before the game starts, and you.name, etc. are not valid
10:03 <+Keskitalo> due: We could make Ely's pacification cure insanity. :]
10:04 <+due> greensnark: Ah.
10:04 -!- ais523 [n=ais523@unaffiliated/ais523] has joined ##crawl-dev
10:05 <+greensnark> Poison darts are generated in overlarge stacks
10:05 <+greensnark> They're so strong
10:05 <+due> Okay
10:05 <+due> We can nerf that
10:05 <+greensnark> And I have 19 of them :P
10:05 <+greensnark> Originally some 25 :P
10:05 <+greensnark> Two of these are enough to kill most things like orc priests 
10:06 <+greensnark> I think they were fine before sorear's change, but since they're so much more effective now, they should be reduced in quantity
10:06 <+due> Okay
10:07 <+Keskitalo> I wonder if Zin minds slavery.
10:08 <+greensnark> Well, he loves poison, so probably no :P
10:09 <+Keskitalo> dat/descript/monsters.txt is probably supposed to be alphabetized? :)
10:09 <+greensnark> It is? :P
10:09 <+due> Yes.
10:09 <+Keskitalo> It mostly is.
10:09 <+greensnark> Have I been naughty? :P
10:09 <+due> It doesn't need to be.
10:09 <+Keskitalo> I have.
10:10 <+Keskitalo> due: Should silver hurt Gastronok? His shape hasn't changed (at least not much).
10:10 <+due> No,I don't think so
10:10 <+Keskitalo> But Zin should be aghast.
10:10 <+due> He ate a wizard and absorbed his mind, not his shape...
10:10 <+due> Oh, definitely.
10:10 <+greensnark> a +4 holy salt-shaker might do some damage to Gastronok :P
10:10 <+due> Silver salt-shaker?
10:11 <+greensnark> due: Can you fix the deep elf annihilator description? :)
10:14 <+due> What's wrong with it?
10:14 <+due> I am probably just going to be lazy and do nothing tonight.
10:15 <+greensnark> Looks fragmentary
10:15 <+greensnark> And the reference to passersby seems weak and unnecessary
10:16 <+greensnark> As if the annihilator is a panhandler on a busy street shooting poison arrow at anybody that does not contribute
10:17 <+Keskitalo> Damn this lovable piece of junk compiles slowly.
10:17 <+greensnark> Also, turtle tiles are cute
10:17 <+greensnark> But the alligator snapping turtle tile is very similar to the lesser snapping turtle tile
10:18 <+Keskitalo> Yeah, due already suggested spikes. Though not to Johanna. (Neither have I).
10:19 <+greensnark> The wikipedia picture is awesome <3
10:20 <+kilobyte> yeah, the two kinds of turtles look really distinct
10:20 < AceTetra> "This legendary deep elf archer has devoted a lifetime to the pursuit of archery, dismissing magic as a frivolous distraction."
10:21 < AceTetra> these elves must have been real jerks in high school. i'm imagining the archer mocking a mage for frivolous distractions, and coincidentally reading an explosive rune the next day
10:25 < purge> ahhh pikel and D&D on the same level :O
10:25 <+Keskitalo> http://www.itsnature.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/alligator-snapping-turtle.jpg
10:26 <+Keskitalo> Sent e-mail to the list on shell spikes.
10:29 <+greensnark> Keskitalo: Nice pic <3
10:29 <+greensnark> purge: WTF
10:29 <+greensnark> How is it that everyone else gets all the uniques
10:32 <+Keskitalo> greensnark: Players should hurt themselves on the spikes if they melee the alligator turtle and fail a Dex check. ;)
10:33 <+Keskitalo> This reminds me, I had an idea for accuracy: hits that are very accuarte could reduce the damage variance (towards high damage of course).
10:33 <+kilobyte> and cut unarmed damage to 0 unless you roll a 10% chance :p
10:34 <+Keskitalo> That would make accuracy pluses on weapons desirable. :]
10:34 <+kilobyte> actually, very high accuracy would _increase_ damage variance since you're more likely to land a critical hit
10:35 <+kilobyte> (yeah, Crawl has no crit hits, but neither it does have that accuracy bonus you're speaking of)
10:35 <+greensnark> Awesomest Maurice encounter ever <3
10:35 <+greensnark> Now I have a giant blowfly that can make itslf invisible on D:8 :P
10:36 <+kilobyte> !lm greensnark uniq=Maurice
10:36 < Henzell> 2. [2010-01-09] greensnark the Slinger (L10 HaHu) killed Maurice on turn 9798. (D:8)
10:37 <+greensnark> He's still alive :P
10:37 <+greensnark> I can't exactly do much to an invisible giant blowfly :P
10:37 < ais523> greensnark: reminds me of when I killed Sigmund the orange rat
10:38 <+kilobyte> an unided wand of random effects, I assume (since you do Zin)
10:38 <+Keskitalo> kilobyte: Ok, I meant critical hits like that anyway. :)
10:38 <+greensnark> Unided polymorph
10:41 <+due> Oh.
10:41 <+due> Interesting.
10:41 <+due> You'll still get a milestone fo rhim thogh.
10:42 < ais523> you could probably come up with a formula involving critical hits that had the exact same effect as the current one would
10:42 < CIA-81> Keskitalo * r20391adc52be /crawl-ref/source/spells2.cc: Remove the message from Call Canine Familiar.
10:43 <+Keskitalo> Maybe that could be the Dex boost. :}
10:43 <+due> @whereis greensnark
10:43 < Gretell> greensnark the Shooter (L8 DEHu), a worshipper of Zin, is currently on D:8 after 11340 turns.
10:43 <+Keskitalo> Power creep warning, of course.
10:43 <+due> DEHu of ... Zin?
10:43 <+due> greensnark: You're broken in the head.
10:44 <+greensnark> due: Game's waaay too easy :P
10:44 <+greensnark> And I still haven't gotten the D&D encounter I ordered
10:45 <+due> The delivery driver got held up by Maurice.
10:45 <+Keskitalo> Smaller piles of powerful darts sounds good to me. I got 30 dispersal darts. Still kicking myself for dying in that game.
10:45 <+due> How does one die with dispersal darts?
10:45 <+kilobyte> she's depth 4-9, and you're already on D:8
10:46 <+Keskitalo> due: By forgetting about them. I swear I'll start sticking post-its to the side of the screen again.
10:46 <+greensnark> Zin doesn't want me eating manticore?! :)
10:46 <+Keskitalo> Apparently they're sentient. :)
10:46 <+kilobyte> ??bad ideas[1160]
10:46 < Henzell> bad ideas[1160/1405]: Worshipping Zin.
10:46 <+Keskitalo> This kitty in my lap smells like poo.
10:46 <+greensnark> Oh great, now I've got half the level carpeted with ballistos :P
10:47 <+due> Ssh, don't tell eronarn.
10:47 <+due> I shot his ballisto-high-horse earlier and he's still mourning.
10:53  * greensnark goes to test Zin's axioms of law on an ogre
10:53 <+greensnark> On second thoughts
10:53 <+greensnark> If a merge hobgoblin hastes up
10:54 <+due> meagre?
10:56 < ais523> do ballistos give exp?
10:57 < purge> greensnark: i think you need at least 5 invo to mess with ogres effectively
10:58 <+greensnark> You begin reciting Zin's Axioms of Law.                                         
10:58 <+greensnark> The gnoll goes into a battle-frenzy!                                            
10:58 <+greensnark> The gnoll speeds up in annoyance!                                               
10:58 <+greensnark> The gnoll speeds up in annoyance!
10:58 <+greensnark> I know it's supposed to be an Invoc training thing :P
10:58 <+greensnark> But it doesn't have to be quite so transparent about it :P
10:59 < purge> greensnark: the problem is that it should not be the training ability because it is too powerful if you make it work at lower invoc
11:00 <+due> It sucks.
11:00 <+due> It needs to go.
11:04 <+Keskitalo> Abominations would probably stand to be chaotic, as would Summon Horrible Things.
11:04 < purge> vitalisation is pretty lame as well IMO
11:04 < purge> seems like a rip off on elly that it cures status effects
11:04 <+due> purge: Zin needs redone.
11:05 < purge> due: except sanctuary :)
11:05 <+Keskitalo> Banishment too.
11:10 <+due> What's wrong with Banishment?
11:10 <+Keskitalo> Banishes to Abyss, which is a chaotic place. It's already an unholy spell as well.
11:12 <+kilobyte> well, Zin hates it, so what's wrong with it?
11:13 <+sorear> !send greensnark Duvessa band
11:13 < Henzell> Sending Duvessa band to greensnark.
11:14 <+Keskitalo> Marking the spell as chaotic will make Zin accept kills of creatures that know the spell, and silver hurt non-spellcaster monsters that have it as a spell.
11:18 <+due> There are non-spellcaster monsters that have it as a spell?
11:23 <+Keskitalo> I think pan lords can get it.
11:24 <+Keskitalo> Don't see it in the ghost.cc though.
11:24 <+Keskitalo> Not that I know how pan lord rolling functions. Well, player ghosts can get it. :]
11:25 <+due> @??pandemonium lord
11:25 < Gretell> pandemonium lord (&) | Speed: 9-17 | HD: 13 | Health: 116-232 | AC/EV: 14/15 | Damage: 49 | Flags: demonic | Res: magic(26), elec, poison | XP: 5027 | Sp: (random).
11:25 <+due> If player ghosts can, pan lors can.
11:31 < AceTetra> oh that's what all the demon-making stuff is about
11:52 < cbus> greensnark, 80x26?
11:53 < ais523> it's presumably to make it awkward to watch on both UNIX (default term size 80x24), and Windows (default term size 80x25)
11:54 < cbus> ais523, thats why I ask :D
12:08 < AceTetra> 80x26 is great, especially for stabbing
12:09 < cbus> stabbing? :)
12:09 < cbus> works in 80x24 last time I tried
12:12 < AceTetra> the two extra lines of viewport make it easier to keep something just out of sight without checking the map as much
12:12 < AceTetra> reduces map checking in general
12:13 <+greensnark> cbus: I had it at 80x26 to watch someone and I forgot :P
12:13 < AceTetra> oh no, i gave someone a terminal size virus
12:30 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * rf926d0bc3815 /crawl-ref/source/rltiles/ (dc-mon.txt dc-mon/human_slave.png dc-mon/slave.png): Tweak slave tile and add a smaller alternative one.
12:30 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r798300e2d76e /crawl-ref/source/mon-place.cc: When the slave monster is placed, sometimes make it use the new tile.
12:32 < cbus> greensnark, not an excuse! :)
12:35 <+due> Oh, how awesome.
12:36 < ais523> AceTetra: I love the concept of a terminal size virus
12:39 < AceTetra> it's really more of a trojan horse, since it hides by being just slightly out of spec, as well as propagating and causing trouble
12:43 < cbus> so you should get arrested for making a virus? :D
12:49 < ais523> trojan horses don't propagate, by definition
12:49 < ais523> maybe it's a worm
12:49 < ais523> sorear: is !send actually implemented with an in-game effect yet?
12:50 <+due> ais523: No :9
12:50 <+due> *:(
12:50 <+due> It should be.
12:50 < ais523> IIRC there was some discussion about it a while back
12:50 < ais523> about making the monster turn up eventually (assuming player survival), but at an appropriate depth
12:50 < ais523> however, it might be a bit abusable
12:51 <+due> If it got implemented, it would be a variant of crawl, I think.
12:52 < ais523> or a compile-time option, like NetHack has but nobody uses
12:52 < ais523> incidentally, I was looking through the bad_ideas list a while back and seeing how many would be easy to implement, it might make for a fun Slash'EMy type fork
12:54 < ortoslon> i used to write tons of bad_ideas
12:55 < ortoslon> ??bad_ideas[666]
12:55 < Henzell> bad ideas[666/1405]: Sudoku portal vaults.
12:55 < ortoslon> ah they got shifted
12:56 < AceTetra> ?? bad ideas[661]
12:56 < Henzell> bad ideas[661/1405]: legendary Shuffle card shuffles skills instead of attributes - ortoslon
13:02 -!- Zaba_ is now known as Zaba
13:02 < ais523> a skill-shuffle would be fun
13:03 < ais523> but not as the sort of thing that could be triggered by mistake
13:03 < ais523> maybe as a single-use god power?
13:03 < cbus> what happened to the DCSS tower defense fork?
13:04 < ais523> Zot Defence is still on cao, I think, I'm not sure if it's still maintained
13:05 <+due> It's in the git repository.
13:05 <+due> someone updated it to 0.5, I believe.
13:09 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r6011983f9d40 /crawl-ref/source/ (rltiles/dc-corpse.txt tilepick.cc): Also handle alligator snapping turtle's corpse tile.
13:09 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r8189b289bc18 /crawl-ref/source/ (rltiles/dc-mon/unique/pikel.png tilemcache.cc): Use purge's Pikel tile.
13:10 < ais523> ugh, I just typoed "autoexplore" as "autoexplode"
13:10 <+greensnark> autoexplode <3
13:11 < ais523> I'll add it to bad_ideas
13:13 < cbus> "when autoexplore ends its time to autoexplode"
13:14 < cbus> maybe its a good idea to let xom have it as penance "Xom autoexplodes you." (and you get zapped with irresistable disintegration)
13:14 < cbus> :D
13:15 < AceTetra> weapons of chaos should autoexplode with 1/1000 chance each turn
13:24 <+due> ais523: there is an "items in view" screen?
13:25 <+due> ais523: Hit ^X in-game.
13:25 < ais523> that doesn't say what the glyphs for them are, though, does it?
13:25 <+due> yes
13:26 <+due> a - ($) 14 gold pieces
13:26 <+due> It doesn't say what's stacked and what's not , though.
13:27 < ais523> hmm, are the brands shown on that screen too?
13:27 < ais523> ideally, with a large enough terminal, monsters-in-view and items-in-view would both show on the HUD, maybe even with coordinates given
13:28 < cbus> ais523, 80x24 is enough
13:29 < ais523> cbus: not when you have a whole load of monsters in view
13:29 < ais523> the HUD starts to lose some of its usefulness then
13:29 < cbus> you don't need to list all monsters in a list, you should know what they are by now
13:29 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r08e1fb31157c /crawl-ref/source/rltiles/ (dc-item.txt item/amulet/i-faith.png item/amulet/i-stasis.png): Use the old rslow tile for "stasis and add a preliminary one for "faith.
13:30 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * rd110270fe935 /crawl-ref/source/rltiles/item/ (amulet/i-r-slow.png food/chunk_brands/i-sickness.png): Replace the contaminated chunk icon with a less intrusive one.
13:30 <+due> ais523: You don't get coordinates in crawl.
13:30 <+due> You get relative coordinates, though,.
13:30 < ais523> due: relative to your current location, I mean
13:30 <+due> And you can use that for item listing and stuff.
13:30 <+due> You might have better success with that?
13:31 < ais523> better success with what?
13:31 <+due> Lua.
13:31 <+due> sorry, I forgot to actuall type that.
13:32 < ais523> hmm, it might be interesting to write an alternative interface in Lua that actually gives all the information
13:32 <+due> I haven't messed with clua much.
13:32 <+due> Most of my stuff is restricted to dlua.
13:33 < ais523> well, it would still use the screen to communicate
13:33 < ais523> can Lua add to the interface?
13:33 < ais523> in Crawl, I mean
13:33 <+due> No...
13:34 < ais523> ugh
13:34 <+due> Pretty sure it can't, but I could be wrong.
13:34 < ais523> maybe I'll have to write intercrawl, then
13:34 <+due> Or you could write modular, Lua-customisable interface for crawl!
13:35 < ortoslon> and crawl-tiles!
13:38 <+Keskitalo> Yes, that would be good.
13:38 <+due> But difficulter in tiles, I think.
13:38 <+Keskitalo> ??tv
13:38 < Henzell> footv[1/4]: telnet termcast.org (and then select the letter for FooTV). do not use SSH. Shows games requested using !tv. Request games by adding -tv to !lg, !lm or !hs, cancel games by adding -tv:cancel to the same command-line, clear playlist with !lg * -tv:nuke
13:39 < ais523> the perfectly general way, which would unfortunately require a complete rewrite of the interface, would be to have the entire interface rendered by Lua in the RC, with the default RC matching to the standard interface
13:39 <+Keskitalo> !lg * place=IceCv -tv
13:39 < Henzell> 19. nubinia, XL14 MDFi, T:38359 requested for FooTV.
13:39 < ais523> there are probably easier ways that are almost as good, though
13:41 -!- Leary [n=deefghdf@81-235-210-141-no62.tbcn.telia.com] has joined ##crawl-dev
13:41 <+Keskitalo> Evokable levitation item operation failure combined with the red herring water in ice cave.
13:41 <+due> hehehe
13:42 <+Keskitalo> Curiosity killed the unspoiled cat.
13:42 <+due> HEHEH.
13:42 <+due> My new motto.
13:42 < ais523> I thought Crawl wasn't meant to require spoiler information...
13:42 < ais523> but nearly all my deaths have been because I was insufficiently spoilt on whatever killed me
13:42 -!- Xiberia [n=deefghdf@81-235-210-141-no62.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
13:43 <+due> Bah.
13:46 <+Keskitalo> ais523: I think of spoilers as bits information that are hard or impossible to gather through normal playing.
13:46 <+Keskitalo> ais523: If you die and learn, it's not a spoiler. If you die and don't learn why you died, it's a spoiler.
13:46 <+due> Hells closing when you take the orb is spoiler information
13:46 <+due> Hydras growing new heads when cut off with non-flaming weapon = not so much.
13:47 < ais523> Keskitalo: Crawl's damage formula makes it very difficult indeed to figure out any meaningful statistical information about monsters
13:47 < ais523> you can meet a monster hundreds of times and never realise it has a much larger damage potential than you expected
13:47 < ais523> due to heavy armour, evasion, and lucky rolls
13:47 <+due> Ack
13:48 <+due> "due to" starting sentences = fail.
13:48 <+due> (irssi fail, that is)
13:48 < ais523> heh, didn't even consider your nick there
13:48 < ais523> sorry
13:48 <+Keskitalo> Just to clarify, I was referring to the water not leading to anything being spoiler information, rather than the evoke-levitation thing.
13:49 < ais523> arguably certain vaults are spoiler info too
13:49 < ais523> if they don't come up often enough for you to learn them off by heart
13:49 <+Keskitalo> Vaults are definitely very easy (and often beneficial) to spoil yourself on.
13:49 <+due> sure, but Crawl certainly has a much better ick to non-ick for spoilers.
13:49 < ais523> due: ?
13:50 <+Keskitalo> It's not that you don't learn that there's no treasure behind the water in ice caves (although there can be short cuts ...), but it's so much easier to check by just checking icecave.des.
13:50 < AceTetra> the water in ice caves is hilarious if you don't know how to levitate yet
13:51 < ais523> I think part of the issue may be tension between two philosophies
13:51 < ais523> people having fun by attempting to deduce Crawl's mechanics experimentally
13:51 < ais523> versus people having fun by trying to play the best they can upon knowing the rules
13:52 <+Keskitalo> ais523: I don't disagree about the damage formulas; I haven't really had a problem with them, I usually die from being careless anyway. Sometimes monsters hit harder than I expect them to, but then I shouldn't take risks with any non-popcorn monsters anyway.
13:52 < ais523> Keskitalo: part of the issue is that I tend to play quite slowly, so typically nearly all midgame monsters are popcorn
13:52 <+due> ais523: Compare NetHack's culture of spoilers to Crawl's culture of non-spoilers.
13:52 < ais523> you learn the few that aren't
13:53 < ais523> due: I don't think NetHack does have a culture of spoilers
13:53 < ais523> there are some spoiled areas, like #nethack and rgrn
13:53 <+due> That's my point.
13:53 < ais523> but I suspect the majority of NetHack players don't frequent them
13:53 <+due> NetHack *needs* spoilers to play sanely.
13:53 <+due> I tried it without.
13:53 <+due> It was obnoxious and annoying.
13:54 < ortoslon> +1
13:54 < ais523> due: Crawl seems to be too, though, in a way
13:54 < ais523> at least, the same things that hurt you in NetHack without spoilers hurt you in Crawl without spoilers
13:54 < ais523> just Crawl's better balanced at how long it takes to learn your way out of them
13:55 < ais523> for instance, NetHack minotaurs are rather similar to Crawl ogres (scaling for when they appear)
13:55 <+due> There's a lot more information available about monsters in crawl's interface than in NetHack's, I found.
13:55 <+due> Unless I just sucked.
13:55 < ais523> but it'll take a beginner hundreds of games before reaching a minotaur, so they don't have much time to experiment to discover its weaknesses
13:56 < ais523> whereas ogre-fighting strategies you can develop almost every game in Crawl
13:56 < ais523> "ogre" A larger, uglier and fatter relative of orcs and goblins.
13:57 < ais523> that has no information about their insanely large damage potential, relative to where they are in the dungeon
13:57 < ais523> nor that they die after relatively small amounts of damage
13:57 <+due> I suppose.
13:57 <+due> But the information is easily learnt.
13:57 < ais523> well, yes
13:57 < ais523> Crawl's advantage over NetHack here isn't qualitative, it's quantatative
13:58 <+Keskitalo> That's a good point; stuff you can learn by dying only in late-game is fairly punishing.
13:58 <+Keskitalo> Especially considering Crawl games are pretty long.
13:58 <+due> I suppose ther'es still a lot of spoiler-y crawl stuff.
13:58 <+Keskitalo> Hence Menkaure with early Torment is good in this respect. :)
13:58 <+due> TRJ and the vault walls.
13:59 <+due> That branch ends are *nasty*, usually.
13:59 <+Keskitalo> TRJ?
13:59 -!- dpeg [n=dpeg@dis.angband.pl] has joined ##crawl-dev
13:59 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+o dpeg] by ChanServ
13:59 <+Keskitalo> Hi dpeg!
13:59 <+due> The Royal Jelly.
13:59 <+due> A PLOOG!
13:59 < AceTetra> the royal jelly
13:59 <@dpeg> Hi!
13:59 < Henzell> dpeg: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
13:59 <@dpeg> For you still the Royal Okob, please.
13:59 <@dpeg> !messages
13:59 < Henzell> (1/1) Chapayev said (8h 44m 4s ago): do you use auctex? or any other emacs packages for writing tex files?
13:59 <@dpeg> *
13:59 <@dpeg> Oklob
14:00 <+due> How is the great ploogy one?
14:00 <@dpeg> !tell Chapayev No, I don't use emacs packages. I do use emacs, but also other editors like kate.
14:00 < Henzell> dpeg: OK, I'll let Chapayev know.
14:00 <@dpeg> His Ploogness is unsatisfied with the lack of progress.
14:01 <+due> :( What progress?
14:01 <+due> It should be TRP: The Royal Ploog.
14:01 <@dpeg> I doubt we'll get 0.6 out by March.
14:01 < mr0t> I disagree as to needing spoilers to be crawl, or even nethack.. well, if you want to ascend in less than a year's worth of games, you do pretty much need spoilers for nh, but i played without spoilers for quite a while and enjoyed myself arguably more than I did after becoming spoiled
14:01 <@dpeg> mr0t: Crawl has been won without spoilers (and quite soon, too). Nethack has not.
14:02 <+due> The Oracle counts as spoilers, no?
14:02 < mr0t> crawl on the other hand, I don't see how spoilers would be able to even help that much
14:02 <@dpeg> due: no, of course not.
14:02 < mr0t> due: no
14:02 < ais523> due: generally the Oracle isn't considered spoilers
14:02 <+due> Ah.
14:02 < mr0t> it's cryptic, and in-game, and costs $
14:02 < ais523> even though her only purpose is to spout spoilers
14:02 < ais523> mr0t: $ is very cheap in NetHack
14:02 < ais523> it's entirely plausible for an unspoiled player to gather all the Oracle spoilers if they really care
14:02 < mr0t> yes, I know
14:02 <+due> I found the game very annoying after crawl.
14:02 <@dpeg> due: the Oracle is an attempt to give some information to players (which would otherwise clearly spoiler material).
14:02 <@dpeg> ais523: I did it!
14:03 <@dpeg> although I save-scummed to get all the Oracle blurb.
14:03 < mr0t> I don't think anybody can definitely say that nobody has beaten nethack without spoilers
14:03 <@dpeg> mr0t: but I read it on Reuters.
14:03 < mr0t> it may be true, but it's certainly possible, though unlikely
14:03 < ais523> mr0t: agreed: Ellora doesn't count, given that a) that one's massively disputed, and b) she didn't actually win
14:03 < ais523> the NetHack late-game is hilariously easy compared to the start, though (just another of its many balance problems)
14:04 < mr0t> I wasn't thinking of ellora, more along the lines of someone who plays offline and also doesn't have any part in any online community
14:04 < ais523> I /think/ NetHack /is/ solvable unspoilt, but it would take a few hundred years
14:04 <@dpeg> but instead of talking about Nethack's deficiencies, it is much more interesting to talk about Crawl's -- for there will be a DCSS 0.6, even if delayed, but there won't be a NH 3.5
14:04 < cbus> ais523, you play until you get "spoiled"
14:04 < cbus> :D
14:04 <+due> nyway, yes.
14:04 <+due> I wasn't going to do any crawling tonight because work = exhausting.
14:04 <+due> but I somehow got sucked in to this.
14:04 < cbus> dpeg, I'm sure there will be,e along with duke nukem forever
14:04 < cbus> :D
14:04 < mr0t> yeah, i wish the "devteam" would just post an official "3.4.3 is the final version" notice
14:05 < ais523> dpeg: current feeling in the NetHack community is that if the devteam don't release a 3.5 sometime soon (= in the next five years or so), someone will do it for them
14:05 < mr0t> people on #nethack are always asking and getting varied answers
14:05 < ais523> the annoying thing is, they are definitely working on it, possibly very slowly
14:05 < mr0t> they are??!
14:05 < ais523> mr0t: that's the shocking thing
14:05 < ais523> but they refuse to release source, or anything like that
14:05 < mr0t> that's even sadder than I thought, then
14:05 < cbus> I wonder if the nethack devteam also work on duke nukem forever
14:05 < ais523> most of the time, you send in a bug report and get "we fixed that already but didn't tell anyone"
14:05 < cbus> seem to be the same team ;)
14:06 < ortoslon> net hackem forever
14:06 < mr0t> I have a specific goal in nethack, to get a certain z-score namely, and despite the strong motivation behind it, I have only ascended maybe 3 chars in the ~2 yrs since I set the goa
14:06 < mr0t> *goal
14:06 < mr0t> lessee..
14:06 < ais523> mr0t: how nethack-spoiled are you?
14:06 < mr0t> 15 ascs left
14:06 < mr0t> ais523: completely
14:06 < Adeon> ascended --> quite spoiled
14:06 <+due> Anyway, less nethack.
14:07 <+due> dpeg!
14:07 <@dpeg> due!
14:07 < mr0t> well, i've read all the spoilers, but i dont source-dive, only because i suck 
14:07 <+due> dpeg, the plan 4 is the ugly vaults layout.
14:07 < mr0t> if i could understand the code i would
14:07 <+due> The one that isn't separate rooms all on their own.
14:07 <@dpeg> We should kick Nethackers on sight :P Traitors!!!
14:07 <+due> And more rooms... but slightly smushed together.
14:07 < mr0t> I actually might beat Prospector with my current gameQ!!!!
14:07  * Adeon hides
14:07 <+Zaba> due, ah, so that's what it is?
14:07  * ortoslon only plays doomrl
14:07 <+due> Zaba: Yes, ugly.
14:07 < mr0t> but it's only because of a bug I encountered where you could buy stocks for a negative price.. that is, you got paid for buying them
14:07 <@dpeg> due: are all the plan_foo just rectangular rooms?
14:07 <+Zaba> due, yuck :p
14:08 <+due> dpeg: Pretty sure, yes.
14:08 <+Zaba> due, no
14:08 <+due> No?
14:08 <+due> Oh, right.
14:08 < mr0t> I guess I could have kept buying until reaching 100,000 credits, but I felt cheap enough just doing it enough to upgrade my ship and get jetpacks for my awayteam
14:08 <+Zaba> well, cross is _plan_2
14:08 <+due> mr0t: This is not the channel that you ar elooking for.
14:08 <@dpeg> due: well, can you replace plan_4 by a nicer and more interesting one?
14:08 <+Zaba> and big octagon is _plan_6
14:08 < mr0t> prospector is gonna be a badass game someday if the developer keeps working on it
14:09 <+due> dpeg: Eronarn wants a "all similar sized rooms spaced evenly".
14:09 <@dpeg> due: but why?
14:09 <@dpeg> ah, as one plan
14:09 <+due> I have no idea.
14:09 <+due> Yes
14:09 <@dpeg> sure, why not
14:09 <+due> Yeah
14:09 <@dpeg> but there could be much more interesting plans, having "courts" etc.
14:09 < mr0t> due: sorry, but isn't it germane to the "-dev" part of the channel? albeit slightly?
14:09 <+due> Someone else also suggested V:1 = small rooms, V:2 = larger than V:1, etc.
14:09 <+due> mr0t: You're talking about something that is so utterly not crawl related, I hav eno idea what it is?
14:10 <+due> ##crawl-offtopic  is -> that way.
14:10 <+Zaba> why are some layouts plan_something and others aren't, anyway?
14:10 <+due> Zaba: The others were unplanned?
14:10 <+Keskitalo> Prospector is a DF-influenced roguelike. You dig rock.
14:10 <+Zaba> heh.
14:11 < mr0t> Keskitalo, I haven't dug any rock and I've played it quite a bit
14:11 < mr0t> you explore planets
14:11 <+Keskitalo> Ack, wrong game then.
14:11 <+due> Hm.
14:11 < Mu_> due is dis fixed yet :s :s
14:11 <+due> Converting the vaults layout to vaults is not working as intended.
14:11 <+due> Mu_: no :/
14:11 <+due> Mu_: Can you file a bug? I'll ask Matthew to look into it.
14:11 < mr0t> it's really original and well-designed, but still in a very early stage of development (hence a silly bug like negative price on an item)
14:11 <+due> I just haven't had time to do much recently.
14:12 < Mu_> i will try
14:12 < mr0t> anyway, I'll be extra-careful to avoid mention of non-crawl-development related stuff on this channel, OK?
14:12 < mr0t> my sincerest apologies on offending the channel's topical sensibilities
14:12 <+due> We don't mind occasional off-topic.
14:12 <+due> (Considering I started the NetHack discussion.)
14:13 <+due> But when there are people who are quite clearly wanting to discuss crawl-related stuff, it gets kinda silly to have to wade through discussion about something else entirely.
14:13 <+Keskitalo> dpeg: Earlier spoiler-related discussion btw: http://pastebin.org/76074
14:13 < cbus> zaba, whats plan 9? ;)
14:13 <+Keskitalo> Hmm, hope you guys don't mind.
14:14 <+due> Keskitalo: The pastebin?
14:14 <+Zaba> cbus, there's only 6 _plan_x functions
14:14 <+due> Keskitalo: Fine by me.
14:14 <+Zaba> cbus, plan 9 is an unix-like-but-not-quite OS by Bell Labs, or a trashy sci-fi movie.
14:15 < ais523> plan 9 was/is made by many of the people who worked on the original UNIX, I think
14:15 < ais523> on the basis that UNIX had become less UNIXy over time, and they wanted something that actually was UNIXy
14:16 <+Zaba> and they made a good OS, just not very practical.  Oh, and called it after a very trashy movie..
14:16 <+due> Eh, I give up.
14:16 -!- due changed the topic of ##crawl-dev to: DCSS offtoppic channel! | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | <@dpeg> "Look, Ceasar, I bought a new broom."
14:16 <+due> Goodnight!
14:16 < ais523> due: you should at least change the general crawl-related chit-chat link
14:16 < ais523> if you're going to repurpose this channel
14:17 < Ashenzari> Have the 'recent changes' button filter out minor changes somehow (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=422) by Porkchop
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14:18 <+Zaba> _plan_main is a mysterious enigma
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14:20 -!- due changed the topic of ##crawl-dev to: DCSS development channel! | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | <@dpeg> "Look, Ceasar, I bought a new broom."
14:20 <+Zaba> and I also wonder, why is _plan_5 *so* rare.
14:20 <+due> I deciedd that was too petulant a note to go to sleep on. :)
14:20 < syllogism> when cdo offers to transfer my save, does it mean it won't presumably break compatibility
14:20 <+due> Also, I just got the Vaults-branch vaults vaults working.
14:20 < Mu_> ? :p
14:21 <+due> http://sprunge.us/KJdT
14:22 < Mu_> due is anyone workin on Olgreb's wizlab yet
14:22 < syllogism> can someone answer? :P
14:22 <+due> Mu_: Nope!
14:22 <+due> syllogism: It should be safe.
14:22 < Ashenzari> Statues in dis_mu no longer come to life (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=423) by Mu
14:22 <+due> Now I actually sleep.
14:23 < syllogism> giant frogs are now cyan?
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15:02 <+Keskitalo> syllogism: That should be Ribbit.
15:03 < syllogism> Keskitalo: when I transfered my save the giant rabbit in my LOS was cyan
15:03 <+Keskitalo> Sounds strange.
15:06 < cbus> I'm barely getting convulsions on zombies with this holy triple sword
15:06 < cbus> did holy brand get nerfed?
15:08 < cbus> http://pastebin.com/d531b324
15:08 < cbus> check that out
15:09 < cbus> oops
15:09 < cbus> :D
15:09 < cbus> I accidently switched item order earlire
15:09 < cbus> a -> A
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15:14 <+greensnark> Wait, giant rabbit in syllogism's LOS?!
15:14 <+greensnark> @??giant rabbit
15:14 < Gretell> unknown monster: "giant rabbit"
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15:17 < cbus> @?? rabbit gigantus
15:17 < Gretell> unknown monster: "rabbit gigantus"
15:17 < cbus> :)
15:18 <+greensnark> @??legendary black beast o aaargh
15:18 < Gretell> unknown monster: "legendary black beast o aaargh"
15:18 < syllogism> greensnark: I wish :P
15:21 < ais523> should be "of aaargh"
15:22 < ais523> or maybe "o' aargh"
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15:25 < syllogism> greensnark: I initially wrote "a giant ribbit" and it morphed into rabbit while fixing :P
15:32 < syllogism> Keskitalo: it was just that one giant frog, weird
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15:48  * Keskitalo takes a look at b26 monster_polymorph
15:48 < syllogism> well back then they definitely didn't keep the spells, this is new
15:51 <+Keskitalo> Yeah, I'm just looking out of curiosity. I was trying to change it a bit yesterday, and didn't succeed. I want to see how arcane it is.
15:52 < Ashenzari> Polymorphed uniques can still cast spells (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=424) by ais523
15:53 <+Keskitalo> Looks like it's pretty much the same.
15:54 < ais523> gah, mantispam
15:54 < ais523> I sort-of like the idea of /oPolymorph not completely defeating spellcasting uniques, though
15:54 < ais523> Sigmund the orange rat is easier than Sigmund the scythe-wielding maniac, I think
15:54 < syllogism> orange rats are fast though
15:55 < syllogism> and hit hard
15:55 < ais523> yep, but running from Sigmund is stupid anyway
15:55 < ais523> and I think Sigmund hits harder than they do
15:55 < ais523> @??Sigmund
15:55 < Gretell> Sigmund (@) | Speed: 10 | HD: 3 | Health: 30 | AC/EV: 0/11 | Damage: 5 | Flags: spellcaster | Res: magic(12) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 104 | Sp: throw flame, confuse, invisibility, magic dart.
15:55 < ais523> @??orange rat
15:55 < Gretell> orange rat (r) | Speed: 12 | HD: 3 | Health: 9-24 | AC/EV: 7/10 | Damage: 20(drain) | Flags: evil | Res: magic(12) | Chunks: poisonous | XP: 33.
15:55 < ais523> hmm, maybe not; do those stats take Sigmund's weapons into account?
15:55 < syllogism> no, but I don't know how monster draining works either
15:55 < syllogism> and the rat sometimes gets two attacks
15:57 <+greensnark> I love that polymorphed uniques can keep spells <3
15:58 <+greensnark> Running from Sigmund is perfectly normal and not stupid
15:58 < ais523> well, I mean if he gets nearer
15:58 < ais523> running while confused just fails
15:59 <+greensnark> Healing isn't uncommon and he doesn't really spam confusion as much as he could
15:59 <+greensnark> And even if he's in melee, he'll often stop to cast a spell, giving you room to flee
16:00 < ais523> hmm, I suppose this is down to my tendency of assuming that monsters should get good AI
16:01 < ais523> it somehow feels better to beat a monster through skill, rather than beating it due to it, by chance, deciding to be stupid that day
16:01 <+greensnark> Er...
16:01 <+greensnark> You're really trying too hard to squeeze the game into your ideals of it
16:01 <+greensnark> Shaking off Sigmund is a skill
16:02 < ais523> greensnark: running from Sigmund in melee is luck, not skill, if you break off melee and get a turn head start, them keep moving away
16:02 < ais523> because it depends entirely on which skills he decides to cast
16:02 < ais523> which is something the player can't control
16:02 <+greensnark> No, it's called understanding the odds
16:02 <+greensnark> Which is definitely skill
16:03 < ais523> well, yes
16:03 <+greensnark> You refusing to fight a monster the right way because if the monster were you it wouldn't be the right way doesn't make much sense in Crawl :P
16:04 < ais523> no, it's not that
16:04 < ais523> I'd prefer, say, a 99% chance to beat the monster than a 50% chance, even early
16:04 <+greensnark> Well, obviously
16:05 <+greensnark> Who wouldn't
16:05 < ais523> so I tend to try to use more reliable tactics
16:05 < ais523> what I'm saying is, I don't believe trying to shake off Sigmund from close range is ever reliable, via pure running
16:05 <+greensnark> But if you're right next to Sigmund and you can't kill him, it's more reliable to run than to stay there and let him beat you up
16:05 < ais523> greensnark: ah, this is my point I think; ending up right next to Sigmund without being able to kill him is not something you should do in the first place
16:05 <+greensnark> Ideally
16:05 <+greensnark> But shit happens
16:06 <+greensnark> Knowing how to handle bad situations is an important skill
16:06 <+greensnark> It doesn't help to say "Ah, you shouldn't have gotten there in the first place" :)
16:06 <+greensnark> Obviously you don't want to dig yourself into a hole
16:06 < ais523> knowing how to avoid bad situations is a more important skill
16:06 <+greensnark> But if you do find yourself in a hole for whatever reason, it helps to know how to get out of there
16:06 < ais523> it's what I've been focusing on, and I've been doing much better with each consecutive game that way
16:07 < ais523> the downside is that the games are generally very boring
16:11 < CIA-81> Keskitalo * r0cdca121f367 /crawl-ref/source/ (delay.cc enum.h religion.cc): Remove some dedicated butchery conduct code.
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16:16 < Cryp71c> Mornin mornin....
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16:21 < Cryp71c> Hrm, how can I find out the name of a function for a particular default keybind, is there an associative array anywhere, or is there no centralized location for that info?
16:26 <+doy> @??orange rat
16:26 < Gretell> orange rat (r) | Speed: 12 | HD: 3 | Health: 9-24 | AC/EV: 7/10 | Damage: 20(drain) | Flags: evil | Res: magic(12) | Chunks: poisonous | XP: 33.
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16:48 <+greensnark> Do monsters go to sleep a lot more readily when you're offlevel in master?
16:49 <+greensnark> I went upstairs, rested to get rid of sickness and when I went back down the giant lizard that was chasing me was dozing off
16:52 < syllogism> hive needs some variety http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v162/VicViper_/mygodthebees.jpg
16:53 <+doy> heh
16:53 < ais523> maybe it could sometimes be wasps instead
16:53 <+doy> hive's going to be completely redone soon anyway
16:54 < Vandal> that is a lot of bees
16:55 < ogaz> How do you get >100 bees on Hive:1 anyway
16:55 <+doy> stand around and shout a lot
16:56 < ogaz> apparently he just went down the stairs
16:56 <+doy> shrug!
16:56 <+greensnark> Apparently its the birds and the bees with the bees doing extra time
17:02 <+doy> !gamesby * race=sp cv>=0.5
17:02 < Henzell> * (race=sp cv>=0.5) has played 16826 games, between 20080714 and 20100114, won 43 (0.3%), high score 10786892, total score 143364513, total turns 57486874, total time 5241:57:51.
17:03 < Twinge> syllogism: BEES?! http://www.amazon.com/Let-Them-Eat-Cake/dp/B000N2VX6A/ref=pd_vodsm_B000N2VX6A
17:03 <+doy> !gamesby good_players race=sp cv>=0.5
17:03 < Henzell> No games for good_players (race=sp cv>=0.5).
17:03 <+doy> !gamesby goodplayers race=sp cv>=0.5
17:03 < Henzell> goodplayers (race=sp cv>=0.5) has played 1080 games, between 20080722 and 20100113, won 19 (1.8%), high score 6152025, total score 42839854, total turns 6386421, total time 515:50:49.
17:04 <+doy> hmmm
17:04 <+doy> i would have thought those numbers would be a lot higher
17:04 <+doy> spriggans have always felt pretty powerful to me
17:05 <+doy> !gamesby race=sp
17:05 < Henzell> doy (race=sp) has played 76 games, between 20061214 and 20091123, won 4 (5.3%), high score 1404023, total score 4824781, total turns 950167, total time 204:40:26.
17:05 < syllogism> do all merfolk spawn with spears? it's a bit ridiculous
17:05 < syllogism> and nets
17:13 < syllogism> or maybe this character is just really weak :P
17:15 <+greensnark> You're having trouble with plain merfolk? :P
17:15 < CIA-81> dolorous * r216124f70257 /crawl-ref/source/ (religion.cc religion.h): Remove the last references to god_hates_butchery().
17:15 <+greensnark> Even my Ha could kill them :P
17:17 < syllogism> well I found another nice shaft and that level happened to have a bazaar so I was running around a lot, not killing anything :P
17:17 < syllogism> and every single plain merfolk was throwing things at me :P
17:18 <+greensnark> Why are queen ants slow? :P
17:18 <+greensnark> It's not like they'd be a threat even if they were fast :P
17:18 <+greensnark> @??queen ant
17:18 < Gretell> queen ant (a) | Speed: 7 | HD: 13 | Health: 39-104 | AC/EV: 14/3 | Damage: 20(nasty poison) | Res: magic(52) | Vul: poison | Chunks: poisonous | XP: 411.
17:18 < syllogism> is "nasty" worse than "strong" ? :P
17:18 < Twinge> Yes.
17:19 < syllogism> is it really
17:19 <+greensnark> The poison doesn't enter into it when it's speed 7 :P
17:19 <+greensnark> And I have +4 needles :P
17:19 < syllogism> wait regular soldier ants have that too
17:19 < syllogism> and queen bee
17:19 < syllogism> no way "nasty" is worse than "strong" then
17:20 <+greensnark> @??se snake
17:20 < Gretell> unknown monster: "se snake"
17:20 <+greensnark> @??sea snake
17:20 < Gretell> sea snake (S) | Speed: 14 | HD: 10 | Health: 40-90 | AC/EV: 2/15 | Damage: 24(strong poison) | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: magic(40) | Chunks: poisonous | XP: 871.
17:20 <+greensnark> strong poison ftw
17:20 < syllogism> pr shouldn't make you immune to strong poison
17:21 < Twinge> Is nasty really not worse than strong?  Seems backwards.  *checks*
17:22 <+greensnark> Looks like half the ants in the world are in here
17:23 < syllogism> I had a huge ant hive
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17:23 < syllogism> or a nest I guess :P
17:23 <+greensnark> Apparently vitalise is good for something :P
17:24 <+greensnark> Like getting rid of red poison :P
17:27 < syllogism> I haven't used any okawaru and yet his piety is only at +++++
17:27 < syllogism> powers*
17:27 <+doy> gifting is a piety hit, isn't it?
17:27 < syllogism> yes but I usually still always have it at ++++++
17:29 < Twinge> huh is nasty poison actually that weak?  Needs a better name then; it appears to be like Poiosn < Nasty Poison < Medium Poison < Strong Poison
17:30 <+doy> pretty sure those names are never used in game
17:30 < Twinge> Fair.  Just confusing on Gretell
17:30 -!- Zaba [n=zaba@about/goats/billygoat/zaba] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
17:31 <+greensnark> @??sea snake
17:31 < Gretell> sea snake (S) | Speed: 12 | HD: 10 | Health: 40-90 | AC/EV: 2/15 | Damage: 24(strong poison) | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: magic(40) | Chunks: poisonous | XP: 751.
17:53 < Ashenzari> Player race: Gnoll (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=425) by brendan
18:03 <+doy> sigh
18:04 <@dpeg> back
18:04 < eith> hmm, why doesnt that link work for me
18:04 <@dpeg> hey, gnoll species :)
18:04 < eith> maybe i need to be logged in
18:04 <@dpeg> "We are all crazy Yiufs!"
18:08 < Ashenzari> Player race: Slime (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=426) by brendan
18:08 <+doy> oh come on now
18:08 -!- ogaz [n=chatzill@adsl-99-190-96-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
18:08 < eith> haha
18:08 -!- Zaba [n=zaba@ip102.148.adsl.wplus.ru] has joined ##crawl-dev
18:08 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v Zaba] by ChanServ
18:10 <+doy> three lines is not a species proposal
18:15 <@dpeg> Keskitalo: thanks for the link. I am not convinced that spoilers are a serious problem for Crawl.
18:17 < ais523> is there still room for pure-aptitudes species proposals?
18:17 <+doy> i don't think it's really possible (or desirable) to make a situation where knowing spoilers will never give you an advantage
18:18 <+doy> ais523: probably wait until we decide what's happening to apts
18:18 < ais523> ah, ok
18:18 < ais523> presumably, you're planning to end up with 27 species, 27 classes, 27 gods, 27 skills?
18:19 <+doy> already have 27 skills!
18:19 <+doy> well
18:19 <+doy> at one point we did
18:19 <+doy> been changing those around a whole bunch lately
18:19 < ais523> presumably it'll go back up to 27 eventually
18:20 -!- Zaba_ [n=zaba@about/goats/billygoat/zaba] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
18:20 <+doy> eronarn's enchantments proposal splits enchantments into three schools, so that'll affect things too
18:30 < purge> bah i died because of tiles!!! It gave me a false sense of security. Rupert's tile was just wearing a thong and nothing else so i charged him and he cast berserk :(
18:30 -!- ais523 was kicked from ##crawl-dev by dpeg [dpeg]
18:31 <+doy> ?
18:32 <@dpeg> greensnark: yes, the re-sleeping times have been changed IIRC
18:32 <@dpeg> (not on my behalf!)
18:32 <@dpeg> but the logic was faulty -- the "ideal" time to stay off-level was clearly broken (as in: bug or absolutely ill-designed)
18:34 <@dpeg> doy: I have a lot of respect for what Eronarn is doing, but please remember that he is not a developer :) (re: 3 schools out of Ench).
18:34 <+doy> dpeg: well, yeah, i know
18:35 <+doy> was just saying that skills are likely to continue to change in the future
18:35 <@dpeg> doy: kicked ais because of the annoying backlog
18:35 <+doy> ah, yeah
18:35 <@dpeg> his discussion with greensnark was imbecile
18:35 <+doy> more irritating because it's old
18:36 <@dpeg> we should kick more often, I am serious on that one
18:36 <+doy> by "we" you mean "you", since you're one of the only ones with ops
18:36 <+doy> (:
18:36 -!- dpeg was kicked from ##crawl-dev by dpeg [dpeg]
18:37 -!- dpeg [n=dpeg@dis.angband.pl] has joined ##crawl-dev
18:37 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+o dpeg] by ChanServ
18:37 <+doy> 11:36 <+doy> by "we" you mean "you", since you're one of the only ones with ops
18:37 <+doy> 11:36 <+doy> (:
18:37 <@dpeg> doy: I read that :)
18:37 <@dpeg> hm, due can also kick
18:37 <@dpeg> you can, too?!
18:38 <+doy> i'm only +v
18:38 <+doy> (as far as i know?)
18:38 <@dpeg> try it -- kick someone!
18:38 <@dpeg> would make for a funny game: two factions, and then the kicking starts
18:38 <+doy> due, violetj, rax, dpeg, elly
18:38 <+doy> are the only ones who can
18:38 <@dpeg> hm, too limited
18:38 <@dpeg> need more boots
18:40 <+doy> and you and elly are the only ones who can give out ops
18:40 <@dpeg> hey, cool
18:40 <@dpeg> how do I do that?
18:40 <@dpeg> and what would elly say?
18:41 <@rax> Are the only ones who can what?
18:41 <+doy> /msg chanserv flags ##crawl-dev username +o
18:41 <+doy> rax: kick people
18:41 <+doy> (:
18:41 <@rax> I don't even know how I ended up with ops here.
18:42 <+doy> dpeg: /msg chanserv help flags and /msg chanserv access ##crawl-dev list are helpful commands too
18:43 <@dpeg> rax: it is a good idea in general to give you ops for everything!
18:44 < elly> dpeg: you may do whatever you like with the access list - I'm only the founder because I thought you didn't care to administer the access list :P
18:44 <@rax> *laughs* 
18:44 <@dpeg> because I wouldn't know how to administer the access list :)
18:45 < elly> if you think someone should have a different type of access than they do now, I can make it so :P
18:45 <@dpeg> doy: now you should be able to kick around
18:45 <+doy> how exciting
18:45 <+doy> (:
18:45 <@dpeg> Is the setting remembered for later?
18:45 <+doy> yes
18:46 <@dpeg> although Enne wouldn't kick anyway
18:46 <@dpeg> Adam would!
18:46 <@dpeg> who's missing?
18:47 <+doy> dpeg: /msg chanserv access ##crawl-dev list
18:47 <+Zaba> dpeg, but, but, kicking's too easy, it doesn't even involve oklobs.
18:47 <@dpeg> Eino is also too kind. I suspect that Finns are just too polite.
18:47 < elly> dpeg: um, should doy be a real op? the +o flag is not all that's involved
18:47 <+doy> elly: +o is fine
18:47 <@dpeg> doy is a developer!
18:47 <@dpeg> believe or not
18:47 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+o doy] by ChanServ
18:47 <@dpeg> who would'a thought
18:48 -!- Zaba [n=zaba@about/goats/billygoat/zaba] has left ##crawl-dev [requested by doy: "/remove is more fun!"]
18:48 <@doy> (:
18:48 <@dpeg> what is /remove?
18:48 <@dpeg> oh
18:48 < AceTetra> it forces part
18:48 <@doy> it
18:48 < elly> doy: you're missing: the ability to use /cs topic; the ability to use /cs unban; the ability to view the access list; the ability to use the invite/getkey commands
18:48 <@doy> 's freenode-specific
18:48 -!- Zaba [n=zaba@about/goats/billygoat/zaba] has joined ##crawl-dev
18:48 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v Zaba] by ChanServ
18:48 <@dpeg> okay, now we should be able to prune the discussion all the time
18:48 <+Zaba> still no acid.
18:49 < AceTetra> that way, clients that auto-rejoin don't react to it
18:49 <@dpeg> ah
18:49 <+Zaba> mine doesn't anyway
18:49 <@doy> elly: shrug!
18:49 <@doy> i don't really care that much(:
18:49 < elly> doy: too late! I fixed it :P
18:49 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [-o doy] by doy
18:50 < elly> (actually just having many different access levels makes me itch >.< we just have op, committer, and founder right now)
18:52 <@dpeg> elly: sounds good
18:52 < elly> are we kicking people more now? what are the rules?
18:52 < elly> (catching up on scrollback)
18:54 <@dpeg> elly: not sure we need rules
18:55 <@dpeg> but when someone is offtopic and annoying others
18:55 <@dpeg> and got it announced (mr0t)
18:55 <@dpeg> then it's a good time to kick
18:55 < elly> ah, okay
18:59 <@dpeg> should be done light heartedly
18:59 < elly> :P
19:00 <+doy> using a kick message when kicking people would help with that part
19:02  * purge kicks dpeg in the shin
19:02 <@dpeg> doy: oh, I didn't know
19:04 < elly> yep - /kick person message goes here...
19:04 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+o elly] by ChanServ
19:04 <@dpeg> We are having LOS bugs again.
19:04 <@dpeg> :/
19:04 -!- dpeg was kicked from ##crawl-dev by elly [bad dpeg, kicking someone without a message!]
19:04 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [-o elly] by elly
19:04 < elly> none of you saw anything.
19:06 < elly> ...o_O
19:06 < Zannick> >.>
19:06 < elly> he's not banned or anything
19:06 < elly> weird
19:07 <+doy> he's just paying more attention to his crawl game
19:07 <+doy> than to irc
19:07 <+doy> (:
19:09 < elly> ahh, I see
19:12 -!- dpeg [n=dpeg@dis.angband.pl] has joined ##crawl-dev
19:13 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+o dpeg] by ChanServ
19:13 <+doy> which los bugs?
19:14 <@dpeg> doy: a monster is announced before you can see it
19:16 < Twinge> I've noticed that I see a flicker of a monster outside of LOS, assumedly when I walk towards it and it then moves away in the same turn
19:16 <+doy> Twinge: you should get a "the monster moves out of sight" message when that happens
19:16 <+doy> well
19:17 <+doy> when that happens and causes autoexplore to stop anyway
19:17 <@dpeg> doy: yes, and I didn't get that
19:17 <@dpeg> it was in my current game. Perhaps we can find the place?
19:17 <@dpeg> It was a kobold.
19:17 <@dpeg> on D:1, I think
19:17 < Twinge> doy: I've gotten in in manual walking too.  Don't recall ever getting that message.
19:18 <+doy> Twinge: it's normal in manual walking
19:18 <+doy> well, in that it's not problematic
19:18 <+doy> could be fixed, but not especially urgent
19:19 <@dpeg> I got the first one several turns before the other:
19:19 <@dpeg> A kobold comes into view. It is wielding a glowing dagger.
19:19 <@dpeg> The kobold shouts!
19:20 <@dpeg> should be able to get a replay of that?
19:20 < Twinge> Yeah, it's not a huge deal, but certainly a little awkward.  And technically could give an awkward tiny advantage to having the system slower, so you could easily see what the out-of-LOS monster was.
19:21 <@dpeg> in my case it's a clear bug
19:21 <@dpeg> the kobold was not visible until two turns later
19:22 <+doy> dpeg: ah, yeah, i see it
19:23 <+doy> i think it might be because of naga speed?
19:23 <+doy> maybe the monster is getting two turns?
19:24 <+doy> as in - you come upon a sleeping kobold, and autoexplore stops, but then because nagas are slow, the kobold gets to make a move before you do, during which it wakes up and moves
19:25 <@dpeg> doy: but *two* turns?
19:25 <+doy> greensnark is the one that's fixed this bug like 2 or 3 times in the past, he can look into it
19:25 <@dpeg> there was clearly no LOS between @ and K when the message was issued
19:25 <+doy> (:
19:25 <+doy> dpeg: yes there was
19:25 <+doy> if you watch the ttyrec
19:25 <+doy> you came upon a sleeping kobold, and it was in los
19:26 < eith> are very large slime creatures supposed to unmerge when out in the open?
19:26 <+doy> then it shouted and moved probably southwest (shouting is free for monsters) the next turn
19:26 <+doy> before you got to move
19:26 <+doy> eith: yes
19:26 <+doy> well
19:26 <+doy> they're supposed to unmerge by the time they get to you anyway
19:27 <+doy> if there's enough space
19:27 < eith> this one does seem to, hmm
19:27 <+doy> @whereis eith
19:27 < Gretell> eith the Sneak (L1 NaAs) quit on D:1 on 2010-01-11 after 0 turns.
19:27 < eith> its not me, its cryptic im watching
19:28 <@dpeg> doy: ah, so no bug?
19:28 <+doy> dpeg: shrug, could still be considered a bug maybe
19:28 <@dpeg> eith: yes, that is intended
19:31 <@dpeg> hm, bailey with absolutely no gear!
19:31 <@dpeg> sounds good
19:32 <+doy> that's what baileys are for, right?
19:32 <+doy> (:
19:32 <@dpeg> Hm, why does recharging an empty wand now tell the charges?
19:33 <+doy> you knew the charges before recharging
19:33 <+doy> it would have been {empty} rather than (0) if you didn't
19:33 <@dpeg> but why did I know them?
19:33 <@dpeg> ah, I remember
19:33 <@dpeg> all too fuzzy in my head
19:34 <+doy> (:
19:34 <+doy> ooh, elf bailey too
19:34 <+doy> elf baileys are totally not worth it
19:34 <+doy> you just get spammed with draining
19:34 <+doy> over and over
19:35 <+doy> (that was my experience with them anyway)
19:35 <+doy> aw
19:35 <@dpeg> yes, I agree
19:35 <@dpeg> how to change them?
19:36 <+doy> make conjurers rarer
19:36 <@dpeg> ok
19:36 <+doy> conjurers are quite tough for d:7 or whatever
19:36 <@dpeg> I killed one!
19:36 <@dpeg> Zaba: what do you think?
19:36 <@dpeg> Your map :P
19:36 <+doy> soldier/fighter/mage/priest/summoner should be plenty for that depth
19:37 <+doy> and more in line with the difficulty of the rest of the baileys i think?
19:37 <+Zaba> mine map, where!
19:37 <+Zaba> oh, elf bailey
19:37 <+Zaba> making conjurers rarer should be fine, could get rid of them at all if they're that bad
19:38 <+doy> i don't think they're *that* bad, other baileys have things like orc knights
19:38 <@dpeg> are priests okay as substitus?
19:38 <+doy> but the orc knights don't show up in the starting room
19:38 <+doy> (:
19:38 <@dpeg> doy: but no warlords anymore :)
19:38 <+doy> heh
19:39 <+Zaba> dpeg, they smite, they're even better
19:39 <@dpeg> and yes, there is a build up to the knight
19:39 <+doy> add priests to the list for the beginning, and move conjurers to the back
19:39 <@dpeg> Zaba: well, that layout is okay for smiting
19:39 <+doy> conjurers are on approximately the same level as knights anyway
19:40 <+Zaba> there used to be a DEMA, too :>
19:40 <+doy> man, baileys used to be pretty rough, apparently
19:40 <+doy> (:
19:40 <@dpeg> yeah
19:40 <@dpeg> doy: yes, power escalation to the max
19:41 <+Zaba> dpeg, we couldn't decide on the target depth for quite a while, as I remember.
19:41 <+Zaba> maybe they could be moved a little deeper?
19:41 <+doy> nah
19:41 <+doy> early portal vaults are fun
19:41 <+Zaba> okay
19:42 -!- purge is now known as purge83[A]
19:42  * purge83[A] is now away - Reason : Auto-Away after 30 minutes
19:42 <@dpeg> yes
19:42 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+o doy] by ChanServ
19:42 -!- purge83[A] was kicked from ##crawl-dev by doy [please don't do that]
19:42 <@dpeg> there was also talk (mostly mine :) about multi-depths
19:42 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [-o doy] by doy
19:43 <+doy> dpeg: could do that too i suppose
19:43 <@dpeg> doy: it is a lot more work :)
19:43 <+doy> but i do like having some portal vaults exclusive to the beginning
19:43 <+doy> we don't need to shove everything into the endgame
19:43 <@dpeg> especially since we get much less useful player feedback (as they don't know what difficulty to expect),
19:43 <+doy> yeah
19:43 <@dpeg> doy: early portal vaults are very, very good, even if some players don't get them
19:44 <+doy> agreed
19:44 <@dpeg> they expect endgame quality loot, I guess
19:45 <+doy> ooh, cryptic just got aizul in vault:3
19:45 <+doy> (:
19:45 <+doy> i guess it's easier with berserk and a +8 battleaxe
19:45 <@dpeg> already dead?
19:45 <+doy> think so
19:45 < eith> yea
19:46 <+doy> couldn't quite tell what happened since he uses a weird terminal size d:
19:48 -!- purge83[A] [n=IceChat7@d192-24-82-173.try.wideopenwest.com] has joined ##crawl-dev
19:48 < purge83[A]> do what?
19:48 -!- purge83[A] is now known as purge
19:48 < Ashenzari> Zot trap not always making level-wide noise (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=427) by evktalo
19:49 <+doy> purge: send messages to your channels announcing when you go auto-away
19:50 < purge> oh i just turned that option on, thought it would just reply to pms
19:50 < purge> ok hopefully fixed
19:50 <+doy> thanks(:
19:52 <@dpeg> doy just wanted to wield his new kicking powers!
19:52 <+doy> hehe
19:52 -!- Twinge- [n=user@97-124-160-32.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
19:53 <@dpeg> wow, did anyone see Eronarn's DS scales system?
19:54 <@dpeg> it is soooo elaborate
19:54 <+doy> as usual
19:54 <+doy> (:
19:54 <@dpeg> using two levels (weak/strong), points, tiers, design points
19:55 <@dpeg> the system is probably not bad, but I need to wrap my head around it
19:55 <@dpeg> !seen sorear 
19:55 < Henzell> I last saw sorear at Thu Jan 14 11:38:57 2010 UTC (7h 16m 30s ago) saying kats: mon_glyph settings are not retroactive, they only apply to newly created monsters on ##crawl.
19:55 <@dpeg> !seen henryci
19:55 < Henzell> I last saw henryci at Thu Jan 14 10:30:54 2010 UTC (8h 24m 41s ago) quitting with message Read error: 113 (No route to host).
19:56 <+doy> hmmm
19:56 <+doy> seems just like a formalization of the ideas we've already had for scales
19:57 <+doy> with a few minor clarifications
19:57 <+doy> seems pretty reasonable overall
19:58 <+doy> the 'design point' thing just being a way for us to come up with consistently powered scales during the design process, rather than something in the actual game
20:00 <+doy> hmmm, mara's illusions can exist on other levels?
20:04 -!- ogaz [n=chatzill@adsl-99-190-96-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
20:12 -!- nrook [n=nrook@ip68-14-16-167.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
20:14 < Cryp71c> dpeg, keeping a reasonably high chance of gold drop is nice. It makes the cost somewhat easier to bare
20:14 < elly> bear
20:15 -!- Twinge [n=user@97-124-156-173.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
20:15 <+doy> Cryp71c: it's boring though
20:15 <+doy> (:
20:16 < Cryp71c> doy, what? the treasure trove or putting gold in it?
20:16 <+doy> Cryp71c: gold being in troves
20:16 <+doy> you pay gold to get in, and... it gives you gold back!
20:16 < Zannick> that's called investing!
20:16 -!- Twinge [n=user@97-124-170-51.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
20:16 <@dpeg> Zannick: basic economy in Crawl :)
20:17 <@dpeg> Cryp71c: troves will be changed, however
20:17 < Zannick> this might be a great idea for an April Fools' FR: crawl stock market
20:17 < Cryp71c> dpeg, yeah I gotcha. the learndb said its customized based on acquirement, I still got 4-5 useless things =\
20:17 <+doy> Cryp71c: just like with acquirement!
20:18 < Cryp71c> doy, yep :(
20:18 <+doy> Cryp71c: useful != usable
20:18 <+doy> acquirement only guarantees usable
20:18 <@dpeg> Cryp71c: oh, the loot won
20:18 <@dpeg> 't be change, but the way how to get in =)
20:18 <@dpeg> doy: semantics for beginners? :)
20:18 <+doy> it's an important distinction!
20:20 < nrook> ugh, I forgot how to make debug again :(
20:21 <+doy> "make debug"
20:21 < nrook> oh right, I was in the wrong directory
20:21 < nrook> thanks!
20:22 <@dpeg> saved by a shaft!
20:25 <+doy> vaults are just full of uniques!
20:32 -!- by [n=rob@e177085140.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined ##crawl-dev
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20:34 -!- Twinge- [n=user@97-124-160-32.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20:47 -!- bmh [i=aadfb788@gateway/web/freenode/x-whwmtbchjifhwwgl] has joined ##crawl-dev
20:49 <@dpeg> bmh: Hi! Just playing
20:49 <@dpeg> @whereis dpeg
20:49 < Gretell> dpeg the Sneak (L9 NaWr), a worshipper of Cheibriados, is currently on D:7 after 12631 turns.
20:49 < bmh> hey
20:49 <@dpeg> killer bees are such a piety fest
20:49 < bmh> I've sworn off crawl for a while after ignominously losing a L20 HOPr
20:49 <+doy> !lg char=hopr s=place
20:49 < Henzell> 7 games for doy (char=hopr): 3x D:1, 2x Zot:5, 1x D:3, 1x D:$
20:50 <+doy> i feel your pain
20:50 <+doy> (:
20:50 < bmh> !lg char=hopr s=place
20:50 < Henzell> 44 games for bmh (char=hopr): 12x D:1, 7x D:2, 5x D:3, 4x D:4, 2x Snake:5, 2x D:6, 2x Orc:3, 2x D:7, 1x Crypt:5, 1x Orc:1, 1x Swamp:1, 1x Orc:2, 1x Vault:7, 1x Abyss, 1x Vault:8, 1x D:5
20:50 < bmh> I play a lot of HOPrs...
20:50 < bmh> D:$?
20:50 <+doy> bmh: win
20:51 -!- Mu_ [i=Mu@cpc14-live9-0-0-cust109.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place."]
20:51 < bmh> doy: Is the Shadow race being seriously considered? It eats equipment.
20:51 <+doy> bmh: i have not heard of it before
20:51 < bmh> it was on the wiki
20:52 <+doy> anything under "collected species proposals" isn't really being seriously considered
20:53 < bmh> Are you deadset against the slime? (assuming it doesn't eat gear nethack style)
20:53 <+doy> bmh: not deadset against anything, but it doesn't belong on the tracker in its current form
20:54 <+doy> (that said, the slime proposal sounded like an interface nightmare in the current form, in my opinion)
20:55 < bmh> How so? You have a @ surrounded by goo.
20:55 <+doy> well, you'll have to go into a lot more detail of how the mechanics work
20:55 <+doy> this is why i recommended a wiki page
20:55 < bmh> Remember the game Snake?
20:56 <@dpeg> yes
20:56 <@dpeg> bmh: new species ideas are actually wlecome, just add them to the wiki, please
20:56 <@dpeg> bmh: do you know which page?
20:56 < bmh> doy linked me
20:57 <@dpeg> good
20:58 < bmh> I'll write it up later tonight or tomorrow.
20:59 < bmh> speaking very generally my suggestion is to have an '@' with a slime body that trails behind it. Movement 'onto' the body is much faster than movement onto surrounding tiles (ie. moving your head on the body)
21:03 <@dpeg> so you can quickly backtrack?
21:04 < bmh> Right, but the whole structure is vulnerable to attack
21:05 < bmh> though "quickly" is a bit of an overstatement, I'd want to see such a creature to move at Naga speed
21:05 < gunofdis> so basically an @ that takes up multiple tyles
21:06 < gunofdis> er, tiles
21:06 < bmh> With each tile accounting for some fraction of your maximum hp, so chunks of you could be killed off
21:07 < gunofdis> sounds more like something for IVAN, tbh
21:07 < bmh> IVAN?
21:07 < gunofdis> a roguelike with locational damage
21:07 -!- Twinge- [n=user@97-124-167-252.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
21:07 < gunofdis> it's difficult to the point of genre parody, though
21:08 < gunofdis> not a fan of mixing locational damage into systems with abstract hitpoints
21:09 <+doy> we do already sort of do this for krakens
21:13 < gunofdis> yeah, but he's proposing it for a player race
21:13 < bmh> uh oh?
21:13 < gunofdis> or at least it sounds like such
21:14 < bmh> that's what I'm doing
21:14 < gunofdis> locational damage + lack of full control over your location sounds like an interface nightmare
21:16 < gunofdis> being weak to area spells sounds almost interesting, though it would make hellions and &s with storms pretty much impossible
21:17 < bmh> on the upside though, you'd have a peak damage limit effect from single attacks
21:18 < bmh> phew, I'm ironmanning... D:10!
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21:19 <@dpeg> bmh: the idea is not out of the question, imo
21:20 < gunofdis> though you'd have more surface area to get mobbed with.  Not sure what you'd have to give away to make it not crumple under the more common challenges
21:20 <@dpeg> gunofdis: sure, but might be worth toying around the idea anyway
21:21 < gunofdis> Maybe some kind of melee retaliation effect ala slime acid
21:21 < bmh> exactly
21:21 < bmh> (D:15!)
21:21 < gunofdis> to make Orc and hive less hellish
21:23 < bmh> I'd suggested acid burns in the FR
21:24 <@dpeg> did my elf bailey modification arrive?
21:24 <+doy> dpeg: haven't seen it
21:24 <@dpeg> hm
21:25 <@dpeg> okay, got to run
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21:25 < CIA-81> dpeg * r8a7bf3237089 /crawl-ref/source/dat/bailey.des: Tweak elf bailey (Jesse, Vsevolod).
21:25 <@dpeg> see you later
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21:26 -!- bmh [i=aadfb788@gateway/web/freenode/x-whwmtbchjifhwwgl] has quit ["Page closed"]
21:29 -!- purge [n=IceChat7@d192-24-82-173.try.wideopenwest.com] has quit ["."]
21:30 -!- Danei [n=Danei@d14-69-62-62.try.wideopenwest.com] has quit ["Holy shit, this is going to be awesome."]
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21:41 <+doy> summon ugly things seems to actually be worthwhile now
21:43 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r4d2c382bc72a /crawl-ref/source/religion.cc: Small code cleanup.
21:43 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r8e7dcff4e000 /crawl-ref/source/rltiles/ (UNUSED/monsters/human.png dc-mon/human.png): Replace bland human tile with a nicer one.
21:43 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r5e052ee696a3 /crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-mon/animals/hog_player.png: Recolour player hog tile to increase difference from monster hog.
21:43 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * rd104b133aa8e /crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-mon/animals/alligator_snapping_turtle.png: Add some spikes to the alligator snapping turtle's tile.
21:43 < eith> n78291 said it was great earlier, whats actually been changed?
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21:44 < eith> oh cause of the ugly things duh =p
21:44 <+doy> (:
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21:49 < TGW> doy: worse against cold
21:50 < TGW> are uglies still amphibious?
21:50 < TGW> @??ugly thing
21:50 < Gretell> white ugly thing (u) | Speed: 11 (act: 110%) | HD: 8 | Health: 31-58 | AC/EV: 2/9 | Damage: 12(cold) | Flags: amphibious | Res: magic(32), cold | Chunks: mutagenic | XP: 341.
21:50 < TGW> ew
22:07 < nrook> I was thinking that the Snake branch end should have some loot, to encourage investigating it earlier than most characters do.
22:09 <+doy> snake does have loot
22:09 <+doy> a ridiculous amount of robes, shields, weapons, etc
22:09 <+doy> almost always find some decent egos in there
22:10 < nrook> that's a good point, I hadn't thought of that
22:10 < nrook> it doesn't really apply to Snake:5 so much, though, does it?  the same loot would be available on Snake:1-4.
22:11 <+doy> sure
22:11 < ogaz> it feels like greater nagas are more likely to have the good robes though
22:11 <+doy> quite possible, i don't know what the item generation is like, exactly
22:13 < nrook> !lm place=Snake verb=br.end s=xl
22:13 < Henzell> 7 milestones for nrook (place=Snake verb=br.end): 2x 22, 1x 16, 1x 23, 1x 18, 1x 20, 1x 19
22:13 < nrook> !lm * place=Snake verb=br.end s=xl
22:14 <+doy> !lm place=Snake verb=br.end s=xl
22:14 < nrook> I may have just asked a bit much of Henzell
22:15 < Henzell> 6951 milestones for * (place=Snake verb=br.end): 1469x 15, 1253x 16, 1076x 14, 833x 17, 548x 18, 400x 19, 310x 13, 285x 20, 242x 21, 165x 22, 112x 23, 75x 12, 66x 24, 31x 25, 27x 26, 26x 27, 19x 11, 5x 7, 5x 10, 4x 8
22:15 < Henzell> 34 milestones for doy (place=Snake verb=br.end): 8x 18, 5x 15, 5x 16, 5x 17, 4x 14, 2x 22, 2x 19, 2x 20, 1x 24
22:16 <+doy> you do snake late d:
22:16 < nrook> I am really conservative, which explains why I think midgame is really boring and no one else does :(
22:16 <+doy> (:
22:17 < nrook> probably should have used verb=rune, but the result is likely very similar
22:18 <+Keskitalo> Kickety kickety coo.
22:18 < nrook> still, nagas guard treasure in the dungeon, it makes sense that there would be a big guardian serpent vault in Snake somewhere
22:18 < nrook> plus, there really aren't "branch ends with lots of treasure" that can be done until very late in the game
22:20 < ogaz> I've done elf:7 at XL18 multiple times :/
22:20 < TGW> @??sea snake
22:20 < Gretell> sea snake (S) | Speed: 12 | HD: 10 | Health: 40-90 | AC/EV: 2/15 | Damage: 24(strong poison) | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: magic(40) | Chunks: poisonous | XP: 751.
22:20 <+doy> !lm place=elf verb=br.end s=xl
22:20 < Henzell> 22 milestones for doy (place=elf verb=br.end): 6x 22, 5x 19, 3x 18, 2x 21, 2x 20, 1x 24, 1x 17, 1x 25, 1x 23
22:20 <+doy> !lm nrook place=elf verb=br.end s=xl
22:20 < Henzell> 7 milestones for nrook (place=elf verb=br.end): 4x 23, 1x 24, 1x 21, 1x 20
22:21 <+doy> !lm * nrook place=elf verb=br.end s=xl
22:21 < Henzell> Malformed argument: nrook
22:21 <+doy> !lm * place=elf verb=br.end s=xl
22:21 < Henzell> 3977 milestones for * (place=elf verb=br.end): 504x 22, 499x 23, 463x 21, 382x 24, 376x 20, 356x 19, 264x 18, 253x 25, 216x 17, 164x 26, 160x 16, 156x 27, 104x 15, 51x 14, 21x 13, 6x 12, 1x 10, 1x 9
22:21 < ogaz> !lm br.end=elf s=xl
22:21 < Henzell> 17 milestones for ogaz (br.end=elf): 4x 24, 3x 18, 2x 23, 2x 27, 2x 21, 2x 20, 1x 25, 1x 26
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22:23 < Zannick> !lm * br.end=elf xl=9
22:23 < Henzell> 1. [2009-10-25] greensnark the Ruffian (L9 TrHu) reached level 7 of the Elven Halls on turn 7352. (Elf:7)
22:23 <+doy> of course it would be greensnark 
22:23 < Zannick> lol
22:23 < nrook> oh geez
22:24 < ogaz> !lm * br.end=elf min=xl -2
22:24 < Henzell> 3976. [2009-09-24] timruff the Grappler (L10 TrBe) reached level 7 of the Elven Halls on turn 17563. (Elf:7)
22:24 <+doy> !lg greensnark char=trhu end>=20091025
22:24 < Henzell> 1. greensnark the Ruffian (L9 TrHu), worshipper of Xom, blasted by a deep elf knight (magic dart) on Elf:7 on 2009-10-25, with 3281 points after 7456 turns and 0:39:16.
22:24 <+doy> !lg greensnark char=trhu end>=20091025 -tv
22:24 < Henzell> 1. greensnark, XL9 TrHu, T:7456 requested for FooTV.
22:25 <+by> that was with the stealth bug I think
22:25 <+doy> stealth bug?
22:25 <+doy> yes, certainly looks like stealth is buggy
22:25 <+doy> (:
22:25 <+by> players were de-facto perma-invisible
22:25 <+doy> i don't remember that one
22:26 <+doy> !lg timruff char=trbe end>=20090924
22:26 < Henzell> 23. timruff the Grappler (L9 TrBe), worshipper of Trog, mangled by a large abomination in the Abyss on 2010-01-10, with 3666 points after 8915 turns and 0:45:21.
22:27 < nrook> why do branch ends early, anyway? not like you need the loot to clear out Vault:4
22:27 < Napkin> !send Keskitalo hot coffee
22:27 < Henzell> Sending hot coffee to Keskitalo.
22:28 < ogaz> nrook: it's fun!
22:28 < ogaz> also I've had characters who get boxed in by uniques or whatever and are forced to do things horribly out-of-order
22:29 < Ashenzari> Trog should not be cool with the Tome of Destruction (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=428) by OG17
22:29 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r932826b6dca4 /crawl-ref/docs/changelog.txt: Update change log.
22:29 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r242d6f4b2344 /crawl-ref/docs/changelog.txt: New change log section: Ranged combat.
22:29 < nrook> ogaz: that makes sense. But it would be good if "do Snake:5 without rPois" was something people regularly consider.
22:30 < ogaz> snake actually scares me more than elf because nagas with shields are ridiculously durable
22:31 < nrook> elf has banishment, but I've suspected for a long time that banishment scares me more than it has any right to scare me
22:32 <+doy> as long as your mr is at least 'very', you're fine
22:32 <+doy> can do it with less mr if you're good at killing things quickly
22:33 <+Keskitalo> Napkin: Thanks!
22:33 <+doy> ??mr
22:33 < Henzell> magic resistance[1/5]: Magic resistance is your or a monster's ability to ignore hostile enchantments. Player MR comes from experience level, items and enchantments skill. The most important hostile monster enchantments are Sigmund|orc wizard confuse, Jessica|orc wizard slow, deep elf sorcerer|ogre mage|Erolcha|Louise banishment, ancient lich|orc sorcerer paralysis.
22:33 <+Keskitalo> I wonder what "patch" would be in Finnish.
22:33 <+doy> ??mr[2]
22:33 < Henzell> I don't have a page labeled mr[2] in my learndb.
22:33 <+doy> ??magic resistance[2]
22:33 < Henzell> magic resistance[2/5]: Chances of anything resisting a spell are calculated like this: (magic resistance + 100 - the spells power) is compared to ( random2(100) + random2(101) ) and if the random numbers are less the spell is negated.
22:33 <+doy> ??magic resistance[3]
22:33 < Henzell> magic resistance[3/5]: Monster MR is a fixed property of the monster, ask Gretell (@? deep elf mage).  Player MR is XL * racial-multiplier + randart MR + 30 for armor _of_ MR + 40 per ring _of_ MR + 2 * Enchantments skill + 30 * level of MR mutation + 50 if lichform.
22:33 <+doy> ??magic resistance[4]
22:33 < Henzell> magic resistance[4/5]: Racial factor is 7 for spriggans, 6 for purple dracs and deep dwarves, 5 for nagas , 4 for elves, dwarves, demigods, vampires and ogres, and 3 for everyone else. MD are only 2 in trunk, though.
22:33 <+doy> ??magic resistance[5]
22:33 < Henzell> magic resistance[5/5]: @ values are: not resistant < 10, slightly < 30, somewhat < 60, quite < 90, very < 120, extremely < 140, incredibly >= 140
22:34 <+doy> so yeah, any +mr item at all at the level that you get to elf will cover you fine
22:35 < nrook> I'll have to do elf earlier from now on then
22:35 < nrook> though XL9 still might be a bit beyond my reach :)
22:35 <+doy> (:
22:36 < ogaz> or do it with silence
22:36 <+doy> a spen would have sufficient mr by xl9 or 10, probably
22:36 <+doy> not really sufficient hp though
22:36 <+doy> (:
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23:00 <+sorear> !seen dpeg
23:00 < Henzell> I last saw dpeg at Thu Jan 14 20:25:30 2010 UTC (1h 35m 9s ago) quitting with message "leaving".
23:01 <+sorear> !tell ais523 No.  (But I've been tempted; it would make fixing saves easier in some cases)
23:01 < Henzell> sorear: OK, I'll let ais523 know.
23:20 < Cryp71c> Who created the new crypt5 map with the 3 lich in top left?
23:21 <+doy> mu i think?
23:21 <+doy> yeah
23:21 < Cryp71c> doy, hrm, have you been on it before?
23:21 <+doy> Cryp71c: once, although didn't go all the way through it
23:22 <+doy> why?
23:22 < Cryp71c> doy, there's an area in the top that my DS "sense surroundings" mut has brought up
23:22 < Cryp71c> but there's no secret passages into it that I can find
23:22 < Cryp71c> and Stickling, who seemed very familiar with the new Crypt:5 didn't even know it was there.
23:22 <+doy> !vault quadcrypt_mu
23:22 < Henzell> Couldn't find quadcrypt_mu in the Crawl source tree
23:23 < Cryp71c> metal walls, so no blasting
23:23 < ogaz> controlled teleport?
23:24 < ogaz> LRD?
23:24 < Cryp71c> ogaz, LRD can blast metal walls?
23:25 < Cryp71c> ogaz, and perhaps controlled tele
23:25 < Cryp71c> but can you tele to an unexplored area?
23:26 <+Keskitalo> I really liked the idea that you wouldn't be able to ctele into unexplored area.
23:27 <+Keskitalo> That would break for instance Cerebov loot though.
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23:55 <+Keskitalo> hiya ortoslon.. played Crawl lately? trunk build updates are up to speed once again, thanks to much smoother updating process/scripts :)
23:57 < ortoslon> a little. exams!