00:01 <+doy> tmux uses terminfo, and it's part of the openbsd base system
00:01 < Eronarn> sorear: least braindamaged from a design POV or least braindamaged with regard to intuitiveness?
00:02 <+sorear> 'yes'
00:02 < Eronarn> heh
00:02 <+sorear> curses tries to do too much, and it's rather hard to use well as a result
00:02 <+sorear> you have to second guess the display update "optimizer" if you don't want horrible flicker
00:03 < Eronarn> i took a glance at a curses how-to, haven't looked into the other options any more than on the page i linked
00:03 <+doy> curses works fine most of the time
00:03 <+doy> depends on how much complicated stuff you're doing
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00:04 < Eronarn> doy: i want to do a hexagon-based roguelike
00:05 < Eronarn> i am considering whether this would work better with ascii or hexagonal graphical tiles
00:05 < Eronarn> i have experience with the latter already (megamek, a java battletech game, uses them)
00:05 < Twinge> That seems difficult to do in ASCII
00:05 < TGW> how do you do hexagonal with ascii?
00:05 <+kilobyte> Eronarn: actually, hexcrawl looks quite nice, even if it takes a moment to switch yourself
00:06 < Eronarn> there are multiple hex patterns that work in ascii
00:06 <+kilobyte> TGW: characters are far from being rectangular
00:06 < Eronarn> \\-//   |
00:06 < Eronarn> //-\\   |
00:06 < Eronarn>   \\-/|
00:06 < Eronarn> \   //-\|
00:06 < Eronarn> is one
00:06 < Eronarn> (spacing got a bit messed up pasting, but it works)
00:07 <+sorear> termcap, terminfo, and conio.h all offer basically the same functionality
00:07 <+kilobyte> | x x y y x x 
00:07 <+kilobyte> |x x y z y x x 
00:07 <+kilobyte> | x x y y x x 
00:07 < TGW> fair enough
00:07 < Eronarn>    /\
00:07 < Eronarn>   |  |
00:07 < Eronarn>  /\\//\
00:07 < Eronarn> |  ||  |
00:07 < Eronarn>  \//\\/
00:07 <+kilobyte> on my screen 'y's for a near-perfect hexagon
00:08 <+kilobyte> while your lines are vertically stretched, due to the aspect ratio
00:08 -!- Netsplit kubrick.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: gunofdis, +Zaba, mr0t, []J, TGW, Keskitalo, eith, timecircuits, +by_
00:08 < Eronarn> you end up losing a lot of screen real estate, naturally
00:08 < Eronarn> but that would be ok for what i intend to do with it
00:08 <+kilobyte> I'd at least merge the hexes' boundaries
00:09 < Eronarn> kilobyte: yes, this is an option. The advantage of unmerged hex boundaries is that you can highlight them
00:09 < Eronarn> (via color change)
00:09 < Eronarn> because they fundamentally behave the same way, it could even be an option
00:10 -!- Netsplit over, joins: +by_, []J, gunofdis, TGW, timecircuits
00:10 <+kilobyte> |   _    
00:10 <+kilobyte> |  / \_
00:10 <+kilobyte> |  \_/ \ 
00:10 <+kilobyte> |  / \_/   
00:10 <+kilobyte> |  \_/    
00:10 < Eronarn> e.g., a close-up view with hex borders and a larger view without them
00:10 -!- Netsplit over, joins: Keskitalo, +Zaba, eith, mr0t
00:11 < Eronarn> (having hex borders also means that you have >1 square for the glyph of the creature, so you can use the other one to display other information, like say whether it's prone or standing)
00:11 < Ashenzari> Porkchop created page user:porkchop at http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=user:porkchop
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00:15 < TGW> eronarn: holy crap that's a cool idea
00:19 <+sorear> you could still highlight merged boundaries
00:19 <+sorear> the code would be a bit fiddlier, but not much
00:19 <+due> hii
00:20 -!- Eronarn [n=ero@ip72-192-30-30.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
00:20 < Eronarn> oops, that was annoying
00:21 -!- Eronarn [n=ero@ip72-192-30-30.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit]
00:21 <+due> Oops?
00:21 <+sorear> you could still highlight merged boundaries
00:21 <+sorear> the code would be a bit fiddlier, but not much
00:22 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r7bd75d9f1c4c /crawl-ref/source/ (main.cc ng-input.cc): Draw the Tiles splash screen before initialising the database.
00:23 <+due> Oh, excellent.
00:25 <+doy> due: you pinged me earlier?
00:25 <+due> doy: I sorted it out!
00:25 <+doy> sweet
00:25 <+doy> (:
00:26 <+due> I finished the city layout Lua conversion :D
00:27 -!- Eronarn [n=ero@ip72-192-30-30.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
00:27 <+doy> nice!
00:27 <+due> And my faith in my judgment is restored.
00:28 < Eronarn> Augh. I really should nuke this install some time.
00:28 <+kilobyte> right... now remind me, why do we convert things _to_ Lua?
00:29 < Eronarn> Did I miss anything interesting?
00:29 <+due> Because they're more flexible in that way.
00:29 <+due> This means we can take the city_layout vault and tell it to use subvaults.
00:29 <+due> Which in turn can automagically generate vaults to go inside each of the rooms.
00:30 <+doy> why couldn't you tell it to use subvaults in c++?
00:31 <+due> This is easier?
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00:44 <+sorear> 15:24 <+sorear> you could still highlight merged boundaries
00:44 <+sorear> 15:24 <+sorear> the code would be a bit fiddlier, but not much
00:50 < Eronarn> sorear: yes, but gurps combat is very fiddly - like, i might want to highlight all hexagons adjacent to the player yellow, and all adjacent to those red, and all adjacent to those grey
00:50 < Eronarn> to represent range bands
00:51 <+sorear> you're trying to make GUPRSRL?
00:51 < Eronarn> ideally yeah
00:51 < Eronarn> the rules scale very, very well
00:52 <+kilobyte> in this particular case, you'd highlight the outer and middle lines
00:52 <+kilobyte> since the hexagon classes are ordered
00:52 < Eronarn> and are inherently modular, so e.g. you can turn off locational damage and the rules still work
00:55 -!- Eronarn [n=ero@ip72-192-30-30.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"]
00:58 < Napkin> is anyone in here well versed in php?
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01:00 < Napkin> nobody?
01:00 < Napkin> not even a little?
01:03 <+sorear> Napkin: Eronarn is
01:04 <+sorear> good luck catching him though
01:04 <+sorear> pingpongpingpong
01:08 < Eronarn> yeah irssi keeps crashing
01:08 < Eronarn> what's up, Napkin?
01:11 < Ashenzari> After draconian player color is revealed, the appropriate lines are not highlighted in the table of aptitudes (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=404) by tinyrodent
01:11 <+kilobyte> <?php exec('/usr/bin/perl xxx'); ?>
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01:16 < Ashenzari> Greater Servant of Makhleb ability has no piety cost (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=405) by tinyrodent
01:21 < CIA-81> kilobyte * r253d99734687 /crawl-ref/source/mon-util.cc: Set mimics' glyphs accordingly if the player redefined it for items.
01:26 < CIA-81> kilobyte stone_soup-0.5 * re63c713625fe /crawl-ref/source/mon-util.cc: Set mimics' glyphs accordingly if the player redefined it for items.
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01:32 < Napkin> Eronarn \o/
01:33 <+due> Napkin!
01:33 < Napkin> Due! :D
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01:33 <+doy> kilobyte++
01:33 < Napkin> what's up? :)
01:34 <+due> a paxed in reverse!
01:34 <+due> I am just going out :)
01:36 < Napkin> kilobyte?
01:36 -!- Twinge [n=user@97-124-173-35.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
01:36 < Napkin> would you know about php and could check the handling of a $_POST variable in a script of mine?
01:39 -!- paxed [n=paxed@pdpc/supporter/active/paxed] has quit [Connection timed out]
01:39 <+kilobyte> alas, all my knowledge about php is second-hand (that it sucks and doesn't deserve to lick perl's boots).  My standing in this Holy War is pure, I'm not tainted with knowledge of the opponent :p
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01:42 < Napkin> roger
01:46 <+sorear> (paxed frequents ##crawl-dev now?  When did that happen)
01:46 <+sorear> Eronarn: Ero: 16:02 < Napkin> is anyone in here well versed in php?
01:46 <+sorear> 16:07 <+sorear> Napkin: Eronarn is
01:46 <+sorear> 16:07 <+sorear> good luck catching him though
01:48 < Napkin> spoke to him already
01:48 <+doy> sorear: he's been around for a while
01:49 < Napkin> he said he considers himself a beginner.. like me :D
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01:57 < Ero> yeah, definitely not well versed... most of what i use PHP for is generating things to be served to the user, also, not taking user input
02:16 < Ashenzari> Vampire's Tooth doesn't obey the new vampirism rules (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=406) by KiloByte
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02:55 < Napkin> ok, i think it's finished now: http://crawl.develz.org/info/
02:55 < Napkin> javascript warning (for setting focus and clearing the text input field)!
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03:12 < TGW> did statrot get a buff? or is my luck absurdly bad?
03:14 <+sorear> Napkin: <input type="reset" name="Clear"/>
03:22 <+sorear> rax: ping
03:24 <@rax> Pong.
03:24 <@rax> What's up, sorear?
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03:25 <+sorear> rax: Fungee's D:10 XL27 MDFi Fire Storm ghost has just claimed a second victim.
03:25 <+sorear> (suicided ghost)
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03:27 <@rax> It doesn't go away after it kills one person?
03:28 <+sorear> No.
03:28 <+sorear> Ghosts get to stay as long as they get kills.
03:28 <+sorear> Actually, it's more a case of dying on the same level.
03:29 <@rax> Oh, well, that's probably enough that I should clear it out.
03:29 <@rax> Is there a trivial way to detect which one that is and kill it?
03:30 <@rax> Oh it must be bones.10a huh.
03:30 <+doy> limiting ghost strength by dlvl might be a good idea
03:30 <+sorear> or 09a maybe
03:30 <+doy> there's an fr about that
03:30 <@rax> I can safely delete the file, right?
03:31 <+sorear> yes
03:31 <@rax> ("Without worrying about corrupting some hypothetical database?" ;) that one's for you doy)
03:31 <+doy> d:
03:31 <@rax> Cool, done, thanks for the heads up.
03:31 <+doy> sorear's the one that was proposing that, i was just agreeing with him d:
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04:47 < Ashenzari> Silver darts are unreliable (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=407) by OG17
04:49 <+sorear> Isn't that the point?
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05:47 < Chapayev> sorear: seems quiet here
05:50 < Eronarn> it's fairly quiet at the moment
05:50 < Eronarn> but activity levels here are erratic
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07:38 < Ashenzari> Enemies should attack plants that block their path (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=408) by OG17
07:47 -!- by_ is now known as by
07:58 < Napkin> Moin!
07:58 < Napkin> No, that won't work, sorear 
07:58 < Napkin> hey rob?
07:59 <+by> hi napkin
07:59 < Napkin> you don't happen to have some skills in php and could check a script, whether it deals with $_POST and $_GET in a secure way?
08:00 <+by> no, sorry
08:00 < Napkin> damn ;)
08:48 <+due> Hi
08:48 <+due> Napkin: I can now
08:49 <+due> $_POST and $_GET are usually safe; in older versions of PHP, post and get were stored in the same array.
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08:58 <+due> Maurice has no interesting backstory.
09:02 < CIA-81> haranp * rcce3c6e018e1 /crawl-ref/ (12 files in 2 dirs): Various cleanups, use you.weapon() more often, fix a note in README.txt.
09:02 <+due> Haran!
09:04 <+due> But no haran on IRC :(
09:05 <+due> I haven't spoken to haran on IRC for six/eight months?
09:05 <+by> he's been here since then I think
09:05 <+by> !seen haran
09:05 < Henzell> I last saw Haran at Tue Mar 31 22:41:18 2009 UTC (41w 9h 24m 7s ago) quitting with message Client Quit.
09:05 <+doy> he showed up for a short while a week or two ago
09:05 <+doy> !seen haranp
09:05 < Henzell> I last saw haranp at Sun Jan  3 23:34:43 2010 UTC (1w 2d 8h 30m 47s ago) quitting with message "leaving".
09:13  * due nod.
09:14 <+due> I'm debating just committing my city_layout...
09:14 <+Zaba> moin
09:15 <+due> zaba!
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09:47 < CIA-81> by * rb56e2eb546d0 /crawl-ref/source/viewmap.cc: Remove redundant check in _reset_travel_colours.
09:47 < CIA-81> by * r45145bc51b51 /crawl-ref/source/exclude.cc: Fix exclude_set iteration.
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10:21 <+haranp> am I the only one for whom line_reader crashes consistently? (try inscribing anything in console mode)
10:22 <+due> hm
10:22 <+due> Is this like &Playout><type anything, crash>?
10:22 <+haranp> I have a one-line patch for this, but it might cause other issues
10:22 <+due> I can inscribe objjects, but some prompts just cause it to automatically crash
10:23 <+haranp> how do I push a patch without really pushing it? i.e. I want other people to look at it?
10:23 <+due> Hm
10:23 <+due> You could put it in a new branch?
10:24 <+due> Otherwise you could copy the output of git diff/git show (if you've alread committed it) into smoething like pastebin and link here/the list.
10:24 <+haranp> haven't committed yet
10:25 <+due> sprunge.us's sprunge script is great
10:25 <+due> git diff | sprunge = my friend
10:27 <+haranp> http://pastebin.org/75362
10:27 <+due> Hm
10:27 <+haranp> can you do a quick check to see if this breaks tiles?
10:28 <+due> What was Enne's change to make it not black out the screen in tiles mode?
10:28 <+due> Sure
10:28 <+haranp> I can't compile tiles
10:28 <+due> Hey cool
10:28 <+due> Tiles is segfaulting!
10:28 <+haranp> without my patch?
10:28 <+due> Yeah, just with current trunk
10:28 <+haranp> where?
10:28 <+due> make[1]: Entering directory `/home/persson/Documents/packages/crawl-ref/crawl-ref/source/rltiles' GEN player GEN gui
10:29 <+due> Segmentation fault
10:29 <+due> make[1]: *** [tiledef-gui.h] Error 139
10:29 <+due> make[1]: *** Waiting for unfinished jobs....
10:29 <+due> Segmentation fault
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10:29 <+due> scuse my paste
10:29 <+haranp> the compiler segfaults?
10:29 <+due> Yup.
10:29 <+due> It's amusing, just going to try it in gdb
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10:31 <+haranp> you might want to make with V=1 ?
10:32 <+sorear> GEN is not the compiler
10:32 <+sorear> CC is the compiler
10:32 <+sorear> GEN is a Crawl module from source/util
10:32 <+due> Yeah
10:32 <+sorear> such as the unrandart compiler
10:32 <+haranp> yeah
10:32 <+due> Which...
10:32 <+due> Which seems to be working now, the heck?
10:33 <+due> That was crazy.
10:33 <+due> Let's try cleaning.
10:34 <+due> Seems happy now.
10:35 <+sorear> due: you shoud check out App::Nopaste
10:35 <+Zaba> due, maybe you've got RAM problems?
10:35 <+sorear> or maybe he's got an unclean build
10:36 <+due> Unclean build most likely.
10:39 <+haranp> let me know if it works
10:40 <+due> yup :)
10:41 -!- Ero [n=ero@ip72-192-30-30.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
10:41 <+due> I'm buildong on a netbook at the minute, will take about fivee minutes
10:41 <+haranp> ok
10:45 <+due> Mu_! Welcome back.
10:45 <+due> I haven't worked out what's up with your dis map.
10:45 <+due> Gonna revert it to the old version and see if that makes it work.
10:47 <+due> haranp: That seems to break the tiles build again.
10:47 <+due> Maybe we can wrap it in an #ifdef
10:47  * sorear prods due on App:: stuff
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10:47 <+due> Why?
10:48  * due googling.
10:48 <+haranp> due: without the patch tiles build works?
10:48 <+due> haranp: Just testing
10:51 <+due> Okay, without the path, tiles build does not black out. With the patch, it does.
10:51 <+haranp> hm
10:52 <+due> #ifndef USE_TILE, maybe?
10:52  * due testing
10:52 <+haranp> well, that will work :)
10:52 <+due> It'll at least make testing portal vaults less hellish?
10:53 <+haranp> in non-tiles mode, at least
10:53 <+due> The &Playout prompt seems to work okay in tiles.
10:54 <+haranp> until now did it work in non-tiles?
10:55 < Mu_> due: thx, keep me posted ;o
10:57 <+sorear> due: because it has more features than that sprunge curl invocation
10:58 <+Zaba> and what are those features?
10:59 <+sorear> direct URL to clipboard mode, automatic failover for paste sites
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11:02 <+due> sorear: Oh, nice.
11:02 <+due> haranp: Yes
11:02 <+due> haranp: Er, well, until the past two weeks?
11:02  * Zaba idly wonders what is used for url to clipboard
11:02 <+haranp> hm
11:02 <+haranp> so I really am the only one who gets crashes on inscribe
11:03 <+haranp> different question:
11:03 <+due> I get them on some random prompts.
11:03 <+due> I think It's related to a change that Enne made recently to make the bllack screen stop showing up in tiles.
11:03 <+haranp> does the crash backtrace show line_reader?
11:03 <+haranp> and is this in tiles or nontiles?
11:03 <+haranp> (back to my question:)
11:04 <+due> Whenever you typed annything in a tiles prompt, the screen would go black. In non-tiles, now if you type things in *some* promots (but not all), it crashes.
11:04 <+haranp> I can't compile tiles because tilesdl.cc doesn't find SDL_image.h
11:04 <+haranp> I have it in contrib/sdl-image
11:04 <+due> Hhuh.
11:04 <+haranp> what am I doing wrong?
11:04 <+due> I got that too, though I just installed libsdl-image. :)
11:05 <+due> haranp: &P which portal vault backtrace: http://pastebin.org/75392
11:05 <+haranp> never mind, I installed libsdl-image-dev
11:06 <+haranp> yup, that's the bug
11:06 <+due> It's driving me bonkers.
11:06 <+haranp> so does &P work with my patch on non-tiles?
11:06 <+due> I worked out a way to get it to crash, and then prompt when you load the save.
11:06 <+due> Yes, it does.
11:06 <+haranp> and does the crash appear in tiles?
11:06 <+haranp> (sorry for being slow)
11:07 <+due> I've never noticed it in tiles before--though I haven't done much with it besides checking stuff.
11:07 <+haranp> ok
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11:07 <+haranp> I'll put in my change with an #ifdef
11:07 <+due> hoorah
11:08 < CIA-81> due wizlab * r73fe6ed84933 /crawl-ref/ (53 files in 5 dirs): Merge branch 'master' into wizlab
11:10 <+haranp> you beat me to it
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11:10 < CIA-81> haranp * r526626fe4e3c /crawl-ref/source/ (cio.cc ng-input.cc): Fix line_reader crashing at random on non-tiles build. This is #ifdefed out for
11:10 < CIA-81> haranp * r0006e0fb4060 /crawl-ref/source/ (exclude.cc viewmap.cc): Merge branch 'master' of ssh://crawl-ref.git.sourceforge.net/gitroot/crawl-ref/crawl-ref
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11:14 <+due> haranp: Oh, you might want to try git pull --rebase to get rid of the "Merge branch of 'master' of <XYZ>".
11:14 -!- Mu__ is now known as Mu_
11:15 < CIA-81> haranp * r2ee889338d8f /crawl-ref/source/spells4.cc: s/USE_TILES/USE_TILE/
11:16 <+haranp> Current branch master is up to date.
11:17 <+haranp> ok, bedtime for me
11:17 <+due> Yeah, if there have been more commits since you made your commit, it'll rebase them so that your commits apply after--that way you don't get weird mergge messages.
11:17 <+due> Sleep well!
11:17 -!- haranp [n=haranp@c-98-248-38-15.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"]
11:20 <+due> Zaba, Mu_ http://pastebin.ca/1749443 I applied the laticing to the outside wall, it makes it look nicer now.
11:28 < Mu_> cool
11:28 <+sorear> due: while you're there, check out App::Ack :D
11:29 <+due> Ack!
11:31  * due brb.
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11:38 <+due> Mu_: I got it to work so that it animates an actual statue
11:38 <+due> Mu_: But it only does one :/
11:38 <+due> anyway, brb again
11:43 < Mu_> due: :( maybe the person that did the master/slave stuff would know what's wrong?
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12:01 <+due> Mu_: Yeah, I might email Matthew
12:01 < Mu_> due: ok
12:01 < Mu_> ty for helpin me
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12:29 <+greensnark> Another day, another Shoal splat <3
12:30 <+due> snark which is green!
12:30 <+due> Should I just push the city_level change?
12:33 <+greensnark> Why do you hesitate? :P
12:33 <+greensnark> Has it been observed to cause cancer in mice or something?
12:33 < purge> @whereis greensnark
12:33 < Gretell> greensnark the Archer (L12 HaWn), a worshipper of Makhleb, saved on Lair:1 on 2010-01-11 after 19274 turns.
12:33 <+due> True.
12:33 < Keskitalo> Good afternoon!
12:33 < purge> hi
12:33 <+due> I seek validation for everything I do.
12:34 <+greensnark> It's Keskitalo the arctic explorer!
12:34 <+greensnark> With his pack of huskies
12:34 <+due> Man, I love this map now.
12:35 -!- Netsplit over, joins: Henzell
12:35 < Napkin> moin greensnark!
12:35 -!- []J [i=J@222.75.25.98] has quit []
12:35 < CIA-81> due wizlab * r14f692c24b71 /crawl-ref/source/dat/wizlab.des: Further tweaks to the Iskenderun map.
12:35 <+due> The main reason I'm holding off on troves is that I need to write an item wrapper for dlua.
12:35 <+greensnark> Hey Napking!
12:36 <+kilobyte> meow!
12:36 <+greensnark> bowwow
12:36 <+kilobyte> I'm adding a fake monster "merged slime creature" so people can redefine its colour.  Is that ok?
12:36 <+sorear> due: what do you think? :)
12:37 <+greensnark> Sounds good to me
12:37 <+sorear> kilobyte: I would rather rewrite the monster coloring system to be based on applying regexes to the full mob description at any given moment
12:37 <+sorear> kilobyte: but your way is fine for 0.6
12:38 <+due> sorear: I haven't worked out how to use it yet, but it looks promising.
12:39 < ais523> <dtsund> On Dungeon:2, I encounter a most bizarre sight: an island in a lake of lava, containing a portal to the freakin' Abyss. What's more, there are on this island a number of demons from much later in the game: Beasts, Iron Devils, Manes, and Lemures. None of them have ranged attacks, but Beasts don't have poison resistance, so a quick couple of castings of Mephitic Cloud to make them stumble into the lava, and I suddenly skyrocketed from 
12:39 < ais523> level 3 to level 7!
12:39 < ais523> is that /meant/ to be possible?
12:40 <+sorear> yes
12:40 <+sorear> many of Crawl's vaults are mini-puzzles
12:40 <+sorear> they offer rewards through creativity
12:40 <+sorear> what channel is dtsund on?
12:40 < ais523> or in this case, rewards through having mephitic cloud handy
12:41 < ais523> sorear: isn't, I just IRC-ised the post
12:41 < ais523> I think he posted on rgrm a while back (although that might have been someone else), but that was from the gamespite Crawl LP
12:41 <+due> If you don't run away with your tail between your legs and think it through (or have been spoiled), it's a nice XP bonus.
12:42 <+due> Was it not a hellmouth portal, though?
12:42 <+sorear> yes
12:42 <+sorear> the hellmouths can do abyss now
12:42 <+due> Oh, cool.
12:42 < Keskitalo> I need a catchy name for my Silver/Zin/Chaos campaign.
12:43 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v Keskitalo] by ChanServ
12:43 <+due> "silver service?
12:44 <+due> Pushed the city_level conversion!
12:44 < ais523> due: I never ran away from the demon islands, it was obvious that the demons couldn't escape or it wouldn't have been generated in the first place
12:44 < ais523> but generally, I didn't have anything on me capable of killing them at range
12:45 <+Keskitalo> The lack of poison resistance is kind of surprising, but good.
12:45 < ais523> you'd need a spoiler to know that some of them weren't poison-resistant, wouldn't you?
12:45 <+due> No.
12:46 < Adeon> you can check by looking at them, as far as I know
12:46 <+due> ais523: They can sometimes escape. :0
12:46 <+due> You can xv over for rPois.
12:46 < CIA-81> due * red8f8e0dbefe /crawl-ref/source/ (dat/layout.des dungeon.cc): Convert _city_level to Lua.
12:46 <+Keskitalo> due: Ah! By the way, the new needle brands. Zin should probably object to using needles of sickness. What of TSO? (Are they poisons?)
12:46 <+due> Maybe not?
12:46 <+due> Keskitalo: I wasn't sure about TSO/Zin.
12:46 <+due> They're not poisons in the sense of the word; I look on them as organic compounds.
12:47 <+due> Keskitalo: But using paralysis/sleep/confusion already has its issues of killing them unchivalricly.
12:47 <+Keskitalo> Yeah, that's true.
12:48 <+due> Maybe xv doesn't show rPois.
12:48 <+Keskitalo> due: It does.
12:48 <+due> Ah, it does.
12:48 <+due> ... Duh, I was looking at a beast and going "hm, it doesn't say rpois, mustn't show it then".
12:49 < Napkin> *** http://crawl.develz.org/info/index.php - now with quotes from the gods! ***
12:49 <+due> Quotes from the gods?
12:49 < Napkin> rax? I think it's ready for productive use :)
12:49 <+due> h, cool.
12:50 <+Keskitalo> Napkin: Way cool.
12:50 <+greensnark> Napkin: Fancy!
12:50 < Napkin> :D
12:51 < Napkin> still need someone to check the php code for security :>
12:51  * greensnark should learn PHP some day :)
12:52 <+greensnark> Napkin: Can you make it follow redirects if there's only one entry?
12:52  * due knows PHP, in theory.
12:52  * due hasn't applied tha theory in forever.
12:52 <+Keskitalo> Afterwards that needs to be blogged. That in mind, I thought of a blog topic this morning. I usually sketch out vaults on paper first, scanning those and putting them up with comments might be interesting?
12:52 < Napkin> :)
12:52 <+greensnark> Napkin: http://crawl.develz.org/info/index.php?q=Napkin
12:52 < Napkin> you mean if it's one link only?
12:52 <+greensnark> Yes
12:52 < Napkin> well.. it's too slow to automatic redirects
12:52 < Napkin> and don't want people to wait too long
12:53 <+Keskitalo> v-napkin says No data found!
12:53 <+greensnark> Napkin: Just include a meta refresh in the page :P
12:53 <+greensnark> Or a JS redirect :P
12:53 < Napkin> that's not the point :-P
12:53 < Napkin> point is, it takes long to get learndb info
12:54 <+greensnark> How do you get the learndb stuff?
12:54 <+due> Magically.
12:54 <+greensnark> Well, obviously
12:54 < Napkin> automatically redirecting.. and what about people that circle ;)
12:54 <+greensnark> I was wondering if translocations or divinations were involved
12:54 <+due> Napkin: You could flush the stuff you've alreayd got if you wanted.
12:54 < Napkin> thanks, Keskitalo 
12:54 < ais523> greensnark: divinations no longer exist, IIRC
12:55 < Napkin> i need more info like that - i don't know which signs henzell removes (like "-" in this case :)
12:55 <+greensnark> Henzell is naughty
12:55 < Napkin> i do get it via http
12:55 < Napkin> from the learndb folder
12:55 <+greensnark> Ah
12:56 <+greensnark> So multiple requests for multiple entries
12:56 <+greensnark> I don't suppose this is a good time to search for bad_ideas? :P
12:56 < Napkin> hahaha!
12:56 < Napkin> should be filtered, indeed!
12:56 < Napkin> i'll add a limit :)
12:56 <+due> You can't rsync the learndb folder over to CDO?
12:57 <+greensnark> Yeah, if the space isn't a problem that sounds better
12:57 < Napkin> but i sent you the link to the sourc, greensnark - if you have some time?
12:57 <+greensnark> Napkin: I... don't know PHP :)
12:58 <+due> PHP is easy.
12:58 <+due> You just take  pure evil and add horor.
12:58 < Napkin> well, i decided for live data instead of getting learndb.html
12:58 < Napkin> or cource, rsync would be less traffic
12:58 <+greensnark> Eek, do you have to declare arrays like that?
12:58 < ais523> hmm, why is tiles in bad_ideas, that exists already
12:58 <+greensnark> Nothing says that only unimplemented bad_ideas should be in bad_ideas :P
12:59 <+due> :))
12:59 < ais523> "forgetting how to eat instead of how to breathe, so that the char will gradually starve"
12:59 < ais523> that's not a massively bad idea either, given that statdeath was going to have an overhaul
12:59 < ais523> although it wouldn't work for undead
13:00 <+due> It would be nice if we could tag doors with a props marker to stop monsters opening them.
13:00 < ais523> "this door has a ridiculously complicated combination lock on it, but it looks easy to crack"
13:00 <+greensnark> due: Do it?
13:01 <+greensnark> Doors with electrified doorknobs
13:01 <+due> haha
13:01 <+due> Perhaps just for the firs ttime though
13:01 <+due> so if the player opens it and goes through then closses it, monsters will follow
13:02 < Napkin> need rsync!
13:02 <+due> rsync good
13:06 < Napkin> anyways, limited to 10 results for now.. will add "more button" later
13:07 < ais523> I love the way "buff Sigmund" is in bad_ideas too
13:08 <+greensnark> due: Electrified doorknobs should give minor hp damage just so there'll eventually be a hilarious splat
13:09 < ais523> I think dtsund's the person who got poisoned down to 1hp in Zot while berserk
13:09 < ais523> but luckily the berserk wore off just in time and he could quaff healing
13:10 < ais523> it would be incredibly funny if he died to a doorknob after that
13:13 <+due> greensnark: Hehe.
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13:18 < CIA-81> due wizlab * rf5af2c84c749 /crawl-ref/source/dat/wizlab.des: And further Iskenderun tweaks.
13:18 < CIA-81> due wizlab * r5624103727b3 /crawl-ref/source/ (7 files in 2 dirs): Merge branch 'master' into wizlab
13:20 < purge> i still think having doors breakable and a wizard lock spell would be neat :p
13:21  * due puts the "This is not Nethack" repeating record o.
13:22 < purge> the idea of wizard lock or breakables doors certainly is not unique to nethack
13:22 < purge> in the roguelike genre
13:23 < ais523> there was a fun YAVP for POWDER (I think), in which someone made some use of a spell that just closed a door remotely (without locking it)
13:24 < ais523> it was basically pillar-dancing, except by closing the door every time the monster tried to open it
13:24 < ais523> and regenerating HP while waiting
13:29 <+due> Sleeep.
13:30 < ais523> wow, Fedhas was effectively in the bad_ideas list too ("Worship a plant god!")
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13:36 < Napkin> ok, greensnark - thanks for the hint about bad_ideas
13:37 < Napkin> it'll display 10 for now and add a link to the full learndb.html
13:37 <+Keskitalo> due: I was thinking; now that some of the wizlabds are in trunk, could the wizlab branch be repurposed into general "vaults under construction" branch?
13:42 < Napkin> Keskitalo: "-" is fixed too - thanks :)
13:43 < Napkin> any other chars, that henzel is filtering out - yet are typed often in the "??" querry?
13:44 < Napkin> btw.. how about adding the tile for a monster? :D
13:44 < Napkin> how would I find the correct tile in source?
13:59 < Napkin> dooohh... http://crawl.akrasiac.org/henzell/src/henzell/dat/messages/gretell
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14:05 <@dpeg> !seen henryci
14:05 < Henzell> I last saw henryci at Wed Jan 13 11:19:56 2010 UTC (1h 45m 29s ago) quitting with message Read error: 110 (Connection timed out).
14:06 <@dpeg> !tell henryci Any progress on Ctrl-O? If there's bits missing, don't hesitate to hand your stuff in anyway. Thanks!
14:06 < Henzell> dpeg: OK, I'll let henryci know.
14:06 <@dpeg> Cheers
14:07 < Napkin> hi David! :)
14:12 <@dpeg> Hallo!
14:22 < syllogism> I copied greensnark's trunk rc and now spell targetting isn't working :P
14:23 < syllogism> for some reason he has default target turned off :P
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14:26 < purge> how about a toggle to change the monsters in sight list to a items in sight list?
14:27 < purge> an in-game one
14:28 < ais523> ooh, that would be nice
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14:31 <+greensnark> syllogism: Bwahahahaa
14:31 < syllogism> how can you play like that :P
14:31 < purge> hrm my deep elf just got 1 shotted by a kobold with a dart of explosion on d:1
14:31 <+greensnark> syllogism: It's the only way to play :P
14:32 <+greensnark> And when the targeting prompt used to force a more, I was immune to it :P
14:32 <+greensnark> Because I rarely had the cursor jump to a monster with a full Shakespeare play's worth of messages to describe it :P
14:32 < Napkin> hmm - is there any reason why some separators in descript/monsters.txt are 5x % instead of usually 4x %?
14:33 < purge> amulet of rage needs to be rarer maybe.. i just found one on d:1 :|
14:33 < purge> or maybe randart only
14:33 <+greensnark> Those are high class monsters that have been certified %%%%% 
14:33 <+greensnark> I think all the parser cares for is that the line starts with %%%%
14:34 < Napkin> lol
14:34 < Napkin> cool :)
14:35 < purge> Kesitalo: do you know if anyone is working on fixing how slow you regen health at low max-hp in tiles?
14:35 < purge> Keskitalo****** sorry
14:37 < ais523> wait, health regen is different in tiles?
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14:37 < purge> Keskitalo: actually now i am playing up the early game in ascii then planning on moving the save to tiles heh
14:39 < AceTetra> this is interesting, got a link?
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14:40 < purge> acetetra: what is?
14:40 < ais523> if /gameplay mechanics/ are different in ASCII and Tiles, there would surely be a riot
14:40 < AceTetra> the idea that the rules are different in console vs tiles
14:41 < purge> they are not, it was poor wording but any tiles player knows what i mean
14:41 < AceTetra> ok, got a link?
14:41 < purge> resting hp takes forever to regen
14:41 < ais523> oh, you mean how tiles is really slow at processing a 5 command
14:41 < purge> http://crawl.develz.org/trunk/
14:41 < ais523> realtime, not gametime
14:41 < purge> yes
14:42 < AceTetra> i meant that you should link to any player who knows what you mean
14:43 < AceTetra> i get it now though
14:43 < purge> link? what? i was addressing keskitalo with the question?
14:44 < Napkin> purge, Johanna and Enne are working on that
14:44 < purge> thanks napkin :D
14:45 <+greensnark> Is it still slow if you use travel_delay=-1?
14:46 < AceTetra> it became a topic of general interest when you mentioned starting in console and moving to tiles, as if it would be profitable due to a difference in the rules
14:46 < AceTetra> grrrr i meant to delete that comment
14:46 < purge> greensnark: that definately seems to help :)
14:47 < purge> if not fix it
14:47 <@dpeg> purge: item/monster list toggle sounds good -- propose it :)
14:47 <+greensnark> We have a lobster in our midst
14:47 < AceTetra> yeah, it can be slow over telnet otherwise too
14:48 <+greensnark> Rest is not supposed to redraw anything during the rest apart from messages that do not interrupt it
14:48 <+greensnark> If it does, it should be treated as a bug
14:49 <+greensnark> i.e. rest should not be looking at travel_delay at all
14:49 <@dpeg> greensnark: what do you think about a fixedart with rSlow and -SPELL?
14:50 < ais523> almost a no-brainer for berserkers if they find it
14:50 <@dpeg> what's the extened command in irssi to switch windows?
14:50 < Ashenzari> In-game toogle to change 'monsters seen' display to 'items seen' (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=409) by purge
14:50 < ais523> unless it uses a valuable slot
14:50 <@dpeg> ais523: rSlow is removed
14:51 <@dpeg> purge: cool
14:51 < ais523> dpeg: yes, because it was broken for berserkers
14:51 < ais523> I don't see why that fixedart would do anything but just add the problem back again
14:51 <@dpeg> ais523: yes, berserkers would love it -- but the -SPELL bit would mean it's not attractive to enchanters
14:51 <@dpeg> perhaps that's delusional
14:51 <@dpeg> I take it back, greensnark 
14:52 <@dpeg> no rSlow for nobody
14:52 < purge> dpeg: except i misspelled toGgle in the title i see :|
14:52 <@dpeg> purge: a lifetime of googling claims another victim
14:52 < cbus> greensnark, you there
14:52 < cbus> ?
14:52 < cbus> check the game of pingpong please
14:53 <@dpeg> no irrsi users here?
14:53 < cbus> there are some issues with exclusion and this steam vault
14:53 < cbus> dpeg, irssi, yes :)
14:53 < cbus> dpeg, best god damn irc client out there!
14:53 <@dpeg> okay, got it
14:53 < cbus> dpeg, nerf the clouds a bit so they don't span as far out
14:53 < cbus> that might give the autotravel a bit of help
14:53 <@dpeg> cbus: which clouds?
14:54 < cbus> checking pingpong on CDO?
14:54 <+by> viewwindow redraws used to be conditional on not resting in tiles, but not in console mode
14:54 < cbus> the stuff below are water and lava generating steam
14:54 < cbus> the steam clouds blocked off so autoexplore wouldn't want to go to where the cursor is now
14:54 < cbus> it stopped there
14:54 <+by> last relevant change was probably c37c87
14:54 < cbus> (I had to manually run there to start autotravelling again)
14:55 <@dpeg> cbus: I think jpeg fixed that earlier today
14:55 <@dpeg> (no more exclusions from water and lava)
14:55 < purge> dpeg: what do you think of making +rage randart only? Meaning take out amulet of rage. If you find it early it makes the game too trivial
14:55 <@dpeg> I don't think so.
14:55 < cbus> dpeg, ahh ok
14:55 <@dpeg> Berserk is a great way to die. rSlow was really bad.
14:55 < cbus> dpeg, stasis stops berserk completely
14:55 < cbus> dpeg, sure it should?
14:56 < cbus> maybe juts give HP and might effect?
14:56 < cbus> and the other negative effects
14:56 <@dpeg> cbus: well, that was the intention...
14:56 < cbus> the description doesn't explain it well atleast :)
14:56 <+by> what negative effects? hunger?
14:56 <@dpeg> hunger, slow down
14:56 < cbus> by, hunger, passing out
14:56 <@dpeg> potential passing out
14:56 < cbus> slow down is prevented by stasis
14:56 < cbus> so passing out and hunger
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14:57 < cbus> or add an effect after the berserk that gives lower damage potential for a couple of turns
14:57 <+by> sounds ok -- danger is to create a cheap source of might
14:57 <@dpeg> Does anybody know which (traces of) Div spells are still in the game?
14:57 < cbus> yeah, just upload the description atleast :)
14:57 < cbus> update
14:57 < cbus> not upload
14:57 <@dpeg> The intention was never to nerf Berserk -- the intention was to remove the Rage+rSlow combo, which broke the game.
15:00 < ais523> well, removing the combo /does/ nerf Berserk; the combo was the only reason any non-newbie ever played it, afaict
15:00 <@dpeg> hey, syllogism is playing -- what honour :)
15:00 < ais523> but OTOH, it is necessary
15:00 <@dpeg> ais523: I disagree with the second clause
15:00 <+by> btw, should merfolk impalers really have such extreme evasion?
15:00 <@dpeg> Be has a very easy game.
15:00 <+by> @?? merfolk impaler
15:00 < Gretell> merfolk impaler (m) | Speed: 10 (atk: 60%) | HD: 12 | Health: 60-108 | AC/EV: 0/23 | Damage: 28 | Flags: amphibious | Res: magic(48) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 1076.
15:00 < purge> can vampire throwing apt be lowered so vampire assassin is a little more attractive? :)
15:00 <+by> @?? insubstantial wisp
15:00 < Gretell> insubstantial wisp (p) | Speed: 10 | HD: 6 | Health: 6-18 | AC/EV: 20/20 | Damage: 12(blink) | Flags: non-living, lev | Res: magic(immune), fire++, cold++, elec++, poison++ | XP: 151.
15:00 <@dpeg> by: haven't met any so far. Do you have trouble hitting them?
15:01 <+by> @?? killer bee
15:01 < Gretell> killer bee (k) | Speed: 20 | HD: 3 | Health: 9-24 | AC/EV: 2/18 | Damage: 10(poison) | Flags: fly | Res: magic(12) | Vul: poison | Chunks: poisonous | XP: 61.
15:01 < ais523> dpeg: incidentally, I generally prefer to play Fi of Trog than Be; the starting armour is more helpful than starting with a god, while the Temple exists
15:01 <+by> I could barely kill one berserk with a sabre because I couldn't hit it
15:01 <@dpeg> by: gotta ask greensnark, he's behind those numbers.
15:02 <+by> they have EV 23, compared to wisps (and orbs of fire) at EV 20 and killer bees at EV 18
15:02 <@dpeg> ais523: matter of preference, I guess. I like Be b/c that allows you to dispatch with any early uniques.
15:02 < ais523> any late uniques, too
15:02 <@dpeg> ais523: if you want to reach the Temple, you may come across early uniques
15:02 < ais523> unless the terrain is really unfavourable
15:03 < ais523> but I might not, and a) only Sigmund is really that threatening early to a Fi, and b) I'm not going for asc percentage anyway, but for one win
15:03 < ais523> incidentally, I introduced Crawl to a new player a few days ago
15:03 < ais523> and although he likes roguelikes in general, he thought the early-game was really repetitive and boring
15:04 <@dpeg> oh
15:04 < syllogism> I like it and that's like every roguelike ever
15:04 <+by> he's not dying enough it appears
15:04 <@dpeg> compared to other games, or for the whole genre?
15:04 < ais523> compared to other games
15:04 < ais523> (he's a pretty good NetHack player, for instance; in NetHack it's the late-game that's boring)
15:04 <@dpeg> by: or he is dying too much
15:04 <@dpeg> ais523: how far does he get?
15:05 < ais523> very first game, to D:7 where he died to an orc priest
15:05 <@dpeg> greensnark said that the game got too easy -- but from what?
15:05 < ais523> he was playing a MiBe who didn't berserk, ever
15:05 < ais523> and used spears
15:05 < ais523> that's a pretty newbie build, so I'm surprised it got so far
15:06 < ais523> out of tutorial on the first game!
15:06 < syllogism> all it takes if some luck
15:06 < syllogism> is
15:06 <@dpeg> yes
15:06 <@dpeg> ais523: and the next games?
15:06 < purge> dpeg: for one he was referring to the starting kits of some combos such as HaHu
15:06 < ais523> he only played the one
15:06 < ais523> then he watched me play and I had my best game ever
15:06 <@dpeg> ais523: how was it repitive then???
15:06 < ais523> although, I've had a better one since (dying in Slime)
15:06 -!- eith [n=eith@86-40-254-250-dynamic.b-ras2.lmk.limerick.eircom.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
15:06 < cbus> !apt Mi
15:06 < Henzell> Mi: Air=170, Armour=80, Axes=70, Bows=90, Conj=170*, Xbows=90, Darts=90, Div=170, Dodge=80, Earth=170*, Ench=170, Evo=127, Exp=140, Fighting=70!, Fire=170*, Ice=170*, Inv=97, Long=70!, Maces=70!, Nec=170*, Poison=170*, Polearms=70, Shields=80, Short=70, Slings=90, Splcast=234, Stab=100, Staves=70!, Stealth=130, Summ=170*, Throw=90, Tloc=170*, Tmut=170*, Traps=120, Unarmed=80!
15:06 < ais523> dpeg: umm, the /one game/ was repetitive
15:07 < ais523> walk up to monster, kill, walk up to monster, kill
15:07 < syllogism> as opposed to what
15:07 <@dpeg> ais523: hm, no ogres, centaurs, orc bands, uniques?
15:07 < ais523> third orc band killed him, only unique was Menkaure
15:07 < ais523> and ogres he outmeleed
15:07 <@dpeg> so he got lucky there
15:08 < ais523> probably; a very swingy early-game doesn't seem to be particularly interesting, though
15:08 <@dpeg> he was choosing the repetitive approach and is unhappy about getting to D:7, IIUC
15:08 <@dpeg> but that was pure luck
15:09 <@dpeg> purge: sorry, what about HaHu?
15:09 < ais523> he also found a bailey, IIRC, and got bored by it too
15:09 < syllogism> helpful feedback
15:09 < syllogism> sounds like a moron really
15:09 <+by> :)
15:09 <@dpeg> perhaps Crawl is not his game
15:09 < ais523> hmm, the only bailey I found, I went through it, collected a bunch of axes of returning
15:09 < ais523> then reached the end and thought "that's it?"
15:09 < syllogism> to be honest, I'm not a huge bailey fan either
15:10 <@dpeg> I have seen players retreat frombaileys.
15:10 < ais523> I understand it from a design point of view; but it would be more fun, I think, if there was something special at the end
15:10 < syllogism> but it might be because I keep getting them from Trowel :P
15:10 < syllogism> Trowel definitely should not generate bailey portals
15:10 < ais523> it needn't be that good, just a unique or a good item or something, I think
15:10 <@dpeg> syllogism: yes, that should not happen.
15:10 <@dpeg> ais523: there is always a good item
15:10 <@dpeg> you may have missed a door
15:10 < ais523> hmm, maybe I didn't notice it was good
15:11 < syllogism> one layout has a good manual for example
15:11 < ais523> given that I was a Trog-follower, I'd have saved any books for explosions, rather than reading htem
15:11 < ais523> *them
15:12 <+greensnark> by: Yeah, impalers are probably too strong on the EV. What level was your character?
15:12 < syllogism> trog doesnt burn manuals, does he
15:12 <@dpeg> he doesn't
15:12 < cbus> nice "oFaith with oka :)
15:12 < syllogism> greensnark just keeps nerfing shoals :P
15:12 < ais523> do manuals have different descriptions from books?
15:12 < syllogism> and then complains about the game being too easy :P
15:12 <+by> XL 15, maybe a little higher?
15:12 <+greensnark> "oFaith should make Okawaru worshippers explode
15:12 < cbus> greensnark, I let the RNG decide
15:12 < cbus> the rng chose trog
15:12 < cbus> I found a bloodstained katana, so I chose oka
15:12 < cbus> :D
15:12 <+greensnark> syllogism: Well, I respect by's judgment :)
15:12 <+by> I don't really mind them having high evasion, but it seems a little out of proportion
15:13 <+greensnark> Also, my games are primarily too easy because of some sinister plot by due and dpeg to protect early-game uniques from me
15:13 <+greensnark> I hardly get any uniques at all
15:13 <+greensnark> How is that fair
15:13 <@dpeg> same here
15:13 < cbus> how does the amulet work?
15:13 < ais523> even then, early-game uniques are often "have a magic bullet to beat them, or die"
15:13 < cbus> makes piety stuff more expensive or only penalty is when taking it off?
15:13 < syllogism> you keep it on and get more piety :P
15:13 < syllogism> you lose one third of your piety if you take it off
15:14 < cbus> ok, then the descirption is bugged
15:14 <+by> greensnark: all of this feedback is based on one quite feeble character I'm playing however
15:14 < ais523> syllogism: are players warned about the piety loss?
15:14 <@dpeg> could one of you !lg wizards ask for early Sigmunds in recent CDO games?
15:14 < cbus> This is a talisman crafted to call the attention of the gods to its
15:14 < cbus> wearer. This divine attention makes it easier to please your god, but
15:14 < cbus> your god is also less likely to forgive your transgressions, and the
15:14 < cbus> amulet will drain some of your divine favour when removed.
15:14 < syllogism> ais523: yes
15:14 < cbus> less likely to to forgive your transgressions
15:14 < syllogism> ais523: there's a y/n prompt and an appropriate message
15:14 <+greensnark> by: Well, the general trend is for players to go do Shoals at XL 20, which means they're putting it off
15:15 < syllogism> the description could also say something though
15:15 < syllogism> oh
15:15 < syllogism> it does :P
15:15 < syllogism> not sure what cbus is complaining about then
15:15 < AceTetra> !lg * src=cdo killer=Sigmund s=xl
15:15 < Henzell> 817 games for * (src=cdo killer=Sigmund): 341x 3, 217x 4, 146x 2, 64x 5, 23x 6, 11x 7, 9x 1, 4x 8, 2x 9
15:16 < AceTetra> !lm * src=cdo uniq=Sigmund s=xl
15:16 < Henzell> 2566 milestones for * (src=cdo uniq=Sigmund): 485x 4, 412x 6, 411x 5, 356x 7, 353x 8, 312x 3, 142x 9, 55x 2, 23x 10, 8x 11, 3x 13, 2x 12, 1x 17, 1x 27, 1x 18, 1x 1
15:16 < purge> greensnark: i tried to do shoals earlier on my demonspawn you saw but the impalers were too much
15:16 < purge> (when i first tried and only went to shoals:4)
15:16 < syllogism> what xl?
15:16 < purge> would it say in my milestones? the game is still on cdo
15:17 < syllogism> !lm purge place=shoal
15:17 < Henzell> 8. [2010-01-10] purge the Executioner (L21 DSFi) killed Ilsuiw on turn 72487. (Shoal:5)
15:17 <@dpeg> AceTetra: thanks! That looks okay, many Sigmunds by D:3, some by D:2.
15:17 < syllogism> !lm purge place=shoal -2
15:17 < Henzell> 7. [2010-01-10] purge the Executioner (L21 DSFi) found a barnacled rune of Zot on turn 72172. (Shoal:5)
15:17 < syllogism> !lm purge place=shoal -4
15:17 < Henzell> 5. [2010-01-10] purge the Severer (L16 DSFi) killed the ghost of greensnark the Swashbuckler, a powerful HaHu on turn 48721. (Shoal:4)
15:17 < purge> i went back for shoals:5 once i was higher level
15:17 <+by> for overall mid-game difficulty, a difficult Shoals needn't be a bad thing
15:17 <@dpeg> yes
15:17 < purge> 16 was probably the one
15:17 <@dpeg> by: also, skipping Shoals means they skip some loot.
15:18 < syllogism> berserk monsters should probably ignore clouds of flame
15:19 <@dpeg> good point
15:19 <+greensnark> Hey, you killed my ghost
15:19 <+greensnark> Someone's going to pay for this :P
15:20 < purge> greensnark: time to start a necro and get agony?
15:20 <+greensnark> No, I don't do lame griefer ghosts :P
15:20 < AceTetra> oh, sigmund by place
15:20 < AceTetra> !lg * src=cdo killer=Sigmund s=place
15:20 <+by> syllogism: http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=256
15:20 < Henzell> 817 games for * (src=cdo killer=Sigmund): 475x D:2, 229x D:3, 69x D:4, 18x D:5, 11x D:6, 10x D:1, 4x D:7, 1x D:8
15:20 <+by> apparently, this has been implemented
15:21 < AceTetra> no temple kills :(
15:21 <+greensnark> But if I don't get to see the elf twins soon, due is going to have to do some explainin'
15:21 < syllogism> by: well duvessa was berserk and didn't ignore it
15:21 < purge> greensnark: you need to splat more often, you reach lair:1 with too much consistency
15:21 < purge> play a little faster
15:21 < purge> :)
15:22 <+greensnark> Duvessa's hair should catch fire if she runs through flame clouds
15:22 <+greensnark> Actually anything with hair should have it catch fire
15:22 <+greensnark> Including the player
15:22 <+greensnark> @: "Your hair is on fire!"
15:22 < AceTetra> yaks have a lot of hair, this is a good idea
15:22 <+greensnark> @: "ALL your hair is on fire, and when we say ALL, we mean it."
15:23 <+greensnark> New item: asbestos underpants
15:23 < AceTetra> they should be able to ignite each other, and you could have a fire spreading across all of orc:4
15:23 <+by> !tell due according to #256 you implemented berserk monsters ignoring clouds, but syllogism says he had berserk duvessa not ignore a cloud of flame
15:23 < Henzell> by: OK, I'll let due know.
15:23 <+greensnark> Someone proposed a flaming sheep FR
15:23 <+greensnark> I do not know the details, but anything containing flaming sheep gets my vote.
15:23 < AceTetra> sheep and yaks automatically berserk as long as they're burning
15:24 < purge> greensnark: you still going to implement polyphemus to throw sheep? :)
15:24  * purge is being serious
15:26 <+greensnark> dpeg has officially endorsed the proposal
15:26 < purge> awesome!
15:26 <+greensnark> He may be regretting it now, though
15:26 < cbus> can I blink into this place?
15:26 <@dpeg> no, sheep throwing first, dwarf throwing later
15:26 < cbus> (scroll or random)?
15:26 <@dpeg> okay, got me Jessica on D:2
15:26 < syllogism> cbus: no blinking through glass walls
15:27 < cbus> not even random?
15:27 <@dpeg> no
15:27 < cbus> ahh, teleportation trap too
15:27 < cbus> "nice" vault
15:27 < syllogism> you can ctele there :P
15:27 < AceTetra> oh, is this sword in the stone again?
15:27 < cbus> yeah
15:27 < cbus> think I might just restart with trog instead
15:27 <+greensnark> The sword in the vault gave me an embarrassing time running away from the humans with scimitar+shield
15:27 <+greensnark> It was fun
15:28 <+greensnark> But it didn't quite compensate for no D&D twins
15:28 <+greensnark> !tell due I'm still waiting for Dowan and Duvessa to show up. You can't protect them forever, you know.
15:28 < Henzell> greensnark: OK, I'll let due know.
15:28 <@dpeg> hehe
15:29 <+by> thankfully noone has made digging actually noisy so far
15:30 <@dpeg> died by the hands of Prince Ribbit
15:30 <@dpeg> well, better than Jessica
15:30 <+by> !tv dpeg
15:30 < Henzell> 843. dpeg, XL3 KeHu, T:1631 requested for FooTV.
15:30 < purge> on d:4? nasty
15:30 < purge> but i guess he is not too hard to avoid
15:30 < cbus> dpeg, when in doubt, tenuki
15:31 <+greensnark> Ribbit is probably pretty awkward that early
15:31 <+greensnark> But awkward is good
15:31 <+by> killed by escaping via shaft
15:31 <@dpeg> cbus: that is a very good rule, trust me
15:31 < cbus> dpeg, it means that if you don't find an altar you restart :D
15:32 <@dpeg> greensnark: I won't move PR deeper, only because he was curious and had a peek into D:4.
15:32 <@dpeg> cbus: boo
15:35 < syllogism> who gave psyche a wand of hasting :P
15:35 <+greensnark> @??Psyche
15:35 < Gretell> Psyche (@) | Speed: 13 | HD: 5 | Health: 39 | AC/EV: 0/12 | Damage: 7 | Flags: spellcaster | Res: magic(26) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 371 | Sp: throw frost, cantrip, haste, throw flame, magic dart, invisibility.
15:35 <+greensnark> Yeah, what a waste
15:36 < syllogism> greensnark: but she is more eager to use the wand
15:36 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r598f36ee1bca /crawl-ref/source/ (mon-act.cc monster.cc output.cc): Don't allow spellcasters to throw items at you.
15:36 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r559bdc3c5fe9 /crawl-ref/source/ (4 files in 3 dirs): Add a tile for Pikel.
15:36 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * rcf4b73981be2 /crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-mon/ (4 files): Clean up some of the wizlab tiles.
15:36 <+greensnark> syllogism: That's good, isn't it :P
15:36 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * rdf6adc362555 /crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-mon/unique/sonja.png: Clean up and recolour Sonja's tile.
15:36 < syllogism> using up my charges :P
15:36 <+greensnark> That way there'll be fewer charges for you to waste :P
15:38 < syllogism> do monsters randomly hesitate to walk into a cloud of flame and then do it anyway?
15:40 < syllogism> found annihilations just lying around on d10 :P
15:42 <@dpeg> centaur on D:2 :)
15:42 <@dpeg> I guess I'll retreat silently.
15:43 <@dpeg> but it also means: arrows!
15:45 <+Keskitalo> Hi dpeg!
15:46 <@dpeg> Hi!
15:46 <@dpeg> long time no see
15:46 <+Keskitalo> Napkin: Showing the tile sounds good!
15:46 < Napkin> :)
15:47 < Napkin> help me, figure out how to find the matching tile of a monster/unique?
15:47 <@dpeg> and description
15:47 <@dpeg> and kill rate
15:47 < Napkin> adding description right now
15:47 <+Keskitalo> dpeg: I need a good name for my Silver/Zin/Chaos campaign; I'll put up a wiki page for it shortly.
15:47 <@dpeg> and spawning levels :)
15:47 <@dpeg> Keskitalo: your spider proposal is very good
15:47 <+Keskitalo> Napkin: There's a file.. hold on.
15:47 < Napkin> great :)
15:47 <@dpeg> but it will take time, you know
15:47 <+Keskitalo> dpeg: It's Lemuel's, almost word-to-word the same as what he posted initially.
15:48 <+Keskitalo> I agree it's good.
15:48 <+Keskitalo> Someone do it. :P
15:48 <@dpeg> "You feel a weird feeling of stasis." <3
15:49 <@dpeg> Keskitalo: took us 0.4-0.6 to get Shoals. And without Darshan, we'd ship 0.6 without it :)
15:49 <+Keskitalo> True. :)
15:50 <+Keskitalo> I keep thinking of making a portal vault out of what ever spidery things currently exist.
15:50 <+Keskitalo> Thoughts, thoughts, idle thoughts.
15:50 <@dpeg> Dowan on D:4
15:51 <@dpeg> Keskitalo: there have been complaints about Baileys :/
15:51 < cbus> you can't blast the stone wall with teh actana?
15:51 < cbus> katana
15:52 <+Keskitalo> Napkin: Check source/rltiles/dc-mon.txt, it's (I assume) a script file that "links" monster types to image files under rltiles/dc-mon/
15:52 < syllogism> you'll LRD or shatter
15:52 < syllogism> or ctele
15:52 < Napkin> thanks, will check, Keskitalo :)
15:52 < cbus> syllogism, impossible with ctele
15:52 < cbus> since its on a teletrap
15:52 <@dpeg> apportation
15:52 < syllogism> i think it works
15:53 <+Keskitalo> Napkin: There are directory changing statements in there, also "%rim 1" command which adds a black outline to all the files that come after it (and "%rim 0" that turns it off).
15:53 < cbus> thats better
15:53 <+Keskitalo> Napkin: Not sure how directly usable that is. :P
15:53 < Napkin> ohoooh.. sounds complicated
15:53 < Napkin> will see
15:53 < cbus> enjoy the ghost on D:5
15:54 <+Keskitalo> dpeg: "That's it?" comes up a lot for Sewers too, so I wouldn't worry about those too much. :)
15:59 <@dpeg> Keskitalo: yes, not sure what players expect. Fireworks?
15:59 < AceTetra> i enjoy the sewer where it's just a lizard that chases you out
16:00 <@dpeg> I think our players are spoiled. 
16:00 -!- Iainuki [n=NoOne@unaffiliated/iainuki] has joined ##crawl-dev
16:00 <@dpeg> And that they should be cured by having to play Nethack and Angband for 24 hours.
16:01 <@dpeg> Iainuki: Hi!
16:01 < Iainuki> Hi!
16:01 <@dpeg> Is Crazy Yiuf darkgrey?
16:02 < ais523> dpeg: except, NetHack's easier (due to chronic balance problems), and Angband's just very grindy
16:03 <+Keskitalo> AceTetra: Thanks, that was an excellent description. :)
16:04 <+Keskitalo> dpeg: Hehe. :)
16:04 <+Keskitalo> Volcano has them!
16:04 < Iainuki> Crazy Yiuf?
16:04 <@dpeg> new unique
16:04 < ortoslon> those who want fireworks should play doomrl instead
16:04 <@dpeg> speech I got: "East horse leg!" <3
16:04 <@dpeg> ortoslon: yes
16:16 <+doy> @??crazy yiuf
16:16 < Gretell> Crazy Yiuf (g) | Speed: 10 | HD: 3 | Health: 20 | AC/EV: 2/9 | Damage: 9 | Res: magic(12) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 41.
16:17 <+doy> i think he might be randomly colored?
16:17 <+doy> i've seen him lightgreen anyway
16:17 -!- Cryp71c [n=Cryp71c@173-162-21-124-Nashville.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
16:17 <@dpeg> doy: ah, that is good
16:22 < Cryp71c> ??git
16:22 < Henzell> git[1/1]: git clone git://crawl-ref.git.sourceforge.net/gitroot/crawl-ref/crawl-ref
16:23 -!- ortoslon [n=chatzill@host-89-31-115-253.academ.org] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20091221164558]"]
16:24 <@dpeg> Cryp71c: Hi!
16:30 < Cryp71c> How can I revert my entire repository to the head revision, even if I've committed changes?
16:30 <+doy> git reset --hard origin/master
16:38 < Cryp71c> @??human
16:38 < Gretell> human (@) | Speed: 10 | HD: 5 | Health: 15-40 | AC/EV: 2/12 | Damage: 10 | Res: magic(20) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 264.
16:41 -!- Vandal [i=Incite@cpe-75-185-204-99.woh.res.rr.com] has joined ##crawl-dev
16:42 <+Keskitalo> All right, wikified the silver/chaos/zin stuff: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:misc:silverchaos
16:46 < Ashenzari> evktalo created page Silver, Chaos and You at http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:misc:silverchaos
16:47 <+Keskitalo> Yeh, indeed.
16:47 -!- by [n=vollmert@a12.imp.fu-berlin.de] has quit ["leaving"]
16:51 <@dpeg> hehe
16:54 <+Keskitalo> Once I get something else than just small, easy tweaks done, I'll commit them to master.
16:55 <+doy> hmmm, did this stuff never get in?
16:56 <+doy> i thought silver does hurt chaotic and not demonic monsters now
16:56 < Ashenzari> Upgrade Tormentors from 3 to 2 (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=410) by Porkchop
16:57 -!- ogaz [n=chatzill@adsl-99-190-96-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
16:58 < ais523> what's with all the 27, anyway?
16:58 <@dpeg> ais523: we like cubes
16:59 <@dpeg> Keskitalo: I agree with everything. But please don't touch Okawaru :)
16:59 < ais523> you like running out of letters of the alphabet?
16:59 <@dpeg> ais523: letters have nothing to do with this
16:59 < ais523> I know
16:59 <@dpeg> cubes are much more transcendental
16:59 < ais523> just, it's a bit amusing
17:00 <+Keskitalo> dpeg: Ok. :)
17:08 < cbus> 2 altars to trog on the same level
17:08 -!- nrook [n=nrook@ip68-14-16-167.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
17:08 <@dpeg> cbus: dedicated berserkers at work!
17:08 < AceTetra> my orc mines had two altars to xom
17:08 < cbus> dpeg, I decided to go trog before starting the char
17:08 < cbus> :)
17:08 < cbus> MiGl short blades switching to long blades (heavy armour)
17:09 < cbus> thats what I decided before statring to play
17:10 <+doy> cbus: you should be more flexible!
17:12 < cbus> doy, why?
17:13 <+doy> why not?
17:13 < cbus> I felt like playing a heavy armour long blade char
17:13 < cbus> nothing else
17:13 <+greensnark> Only this and nothing more
17:13 < cbus> why settle for less when you can play what you want?
17:14 <+Keskitalo> Rakash.. rhakhasas.. rhakkahasasa.... help?
17:14 <+doy> @??rakshasa
17:14 < Gretell> rakshasa (R) | Speed: 10 | HD: 10 | Health: 30-80 | AC/EV: 10/14 | Damage: 20 | Flags: demonic, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: magic(133), poison | XP: 1070 | Sp: rakshasa summon, blink, invisibility, teleport self.
17:14 <+Keskitalo> Thaaaanks.
17:14 <+greensnark> rakasha is Zelazny's variant spelling
17:14 <+greensnark> From Lord of Light <3
17:15 < ais523> how shouted at would I get if I made a vault with a test spawner in?
17:16 < MarvinPA> er, should you be able to get stabs on ballistos?
17:17 <+doy> ais523: infinite xp = bad
17:17 < ais523> doy: that's a beautiful objection
17:17 < ais523> however, you'd pretty much need infinite XP to survive against one of those for very long
17:19 < MarvinPA> hmm, also you still seem to be able to get stabs on mimics via autoexplore
17:20 < ais523> besides, scumming for XP is still very possible, in a variety of places
17:20 < ais523> would you say a test-spawner vault in Pan was acceptable, for instance, as there's infinite XP there anyway?
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17:21 <@dpeg> ais523: no, I don't think so
17:21 < ais523> I think so too
17:21 < ais523> although it would still be funny
17:22 < ais523> looks like, when I get less busy, it'll have to be silver statues instead
17:23 <+doy> a quick browse over the source seems to indicate that test spawners don't work outside of arena mode anyway
17:23 <@dpeg> Duvessa on D:3
17:23 <@dpeg> erm, D:5
17:23 < ais523> doy: pity
17:25 < syllogism> &Mtest spawner -> seems to work fine
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17:25 <+doy> syllogism: does it do anything though?
17:25 < cbus> There is a cloud of freezing vapour here. You see a hardcover book here.
17:25 < cbus> -Use which ability? (? or * to list) You cannot see a spellbook to ignite!
17:25 < syllogism> yes, summoned like 20 orcs in Orc
17:25 < cbus> bug?
17:26 <+doy> syllogism: ah, shrug
17:26 <+doy> cbus: possibly
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17:26 <+doy> not sure how book burning is supposed to interact with clouds
17:27 < ais523> silliest concept ever: enslave a test spawner
17:27 < cbus> posted
17:28 < cbus> doy, if I waited until the cloud wasn't on it I could ignite it :)
17:28 <+doy> cbus: yeah, figured
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17:31 < Ashenzari> trog burn spellbook ability (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=411) by cbus
17:32 <@dpeg> those giant spiked clubs do an insane amount of damage
17:41 < Ashenzari> Unknown mimics can be stabbed during autoexplore (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=412) by MarvintheParanoidAndroid
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17:44 <+Keskitalo> Ha! Silver should hurt mimics too.
17:44 <+doy> hmmm
17:44 <+doy> maybe
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17:45 <+doy> i think of mimics more as constructs
17:45 <+doy> that might not be a consistent viewpoint though
17:45 <+doy> (:
17:46 <+Keskitalo> Yeah, I think of them as monsters, although constructs sound interesting too.
17:47 <+doy> they do get described as "almost destroyed", etc (rather than "almost dead")
17:47 <+Keskitalo> Ahh, I see.
17:47 <@dpeg> I have so many artefacts which are useless to me. Would be nice if I could sell them in a shop.
17:47 <+doy> dpeg: convert to nemelex, he'd love them
17:47 <+doy> (:
17:48 <@dpeg> but my god is Yredelemnul
17:48 <@dpeg> and no Temple in sight
17:49 <@dpeg> doy: got a moment to look at my map?
17:50 <+doy> dpeg: sure
17:50 <@dpeg> doy: see the ugly straight wall? It's from a vault.
17:50 <@dpeg> really stands out, now that all Lair is rugged
17:50 <+doy> yes, i wasn't sure what to do about that
17:50 < Napkin> Keskitalo?
17:51 < Napkin> are there images with white background?
17:51 < Napkin> http://crawl.develz.org/info/trunk.php?q=nikola
17:51 < Napkin> compared to
17:51 <+doy> i could make the ruining happen after vault placement, but that runs into issues with vaults that expect to keep dangerous things contained
17:51 <@dpeg> I say modify them too, unless the vaults is protected (by tag)
17:51 < ais523> is there any way to build a multi-UI build
17:51 <@dpeg> and I wouldn't do anything to non-rock
17:51 < ais523> that can be run as tiles or ASCII depending on parameters?
17:51 < Napkin> http://crawl.develz.org/info/trunk.php?q=agnes
17:51 <+doy> dpeg: yeah, the 'protected' part was a bit over my head, i don't know too incredibly much about vault building(:
17:53 <@dpeg> doy: I think this is something that Darshan could do without a lof of trouble.
17:54 <+doy> quite possible
17:54 <@dpeg> doy: the question is design: do we want a TAG for "ruggify this vault" or rather "hey, don't ruggify this vault"?
17:55 <+doy> i'd say "don't", but that would involve going through a lot of vaults to see what would break
17:56 <@dpeg> doy: well, we would look once, and then we'd get complaints by players :)
17:56 <+doy> also, special rooms are placed before vaults, and they have special "don't treat these walls as actual walls" tags, but those tags get removed before normal vaults are placed
17:56 < ogaz> Napkin: that's pretty cool
17:56 <@dpeg> doy: I'd say no to rugging metal etc.
17:56 <+doy> dpeg: yeah, probably
17:56 <@dpeg> doy: also, what about the occasional tree and some moss? Eh, you said you're busy! :)
17:56 < ogaz> Napkin: what would happen if I put bad ideas in there ? :P
17:56 <+doy> yeah(:
17:57 <+doy> i was looking into moss, but i'm not sure how lightly we want to treat adding additional fprops
17:57 < Napkin> try, ogaz ;)
17:57 <+doy> since they are somewhat limited
17:57 < Napkin> off home o/
17:57 <+doy> someone who's more familiar with the source as a whole should weigh in there
17:58 <+doy> as for trees, i thought that giving water levels a chance to replace the water with trees would be pretty cool
17:58 <@dpeg> Lost a boulder, sniff :/
17:58 <@dpeg> doy: true
17:58 <@dpeg> doy: but I thought about trees as rare pillars
17:58 <@dpeg> just to liven up the scenery
17:59 <+doy> also possible
18:00 <+doy> i don't think they should become a major part of the landscape in lair, but putting one or two around in various places could be good
18:01 <@dpeg> doy: yes. I am mostly about teaching players about the tree feature.
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18:02  * greensnark mews.
18:03 <@dpeg> greensnark: Hi there!
18:03 <+doy> greensnark: *points to scrollback*
18:03 <+greensnark> Yes, saw it :)
18:03 < syllogism> rupert is pretty buff for lair
18:03 <+greensnark> Vaults have a per-point mask that they can set flags in, so all that's needed is a MMT_RUIN_THIS or MMT_DONT_RUIN_THIS that the ruin code does
18:03 < syllogism> !lm * place=lair uniq=rupert
18:04 < Henzell> 25. [2010-01-13] N78291 the Unseen (L17 NaEE) killed Rupert on turn 63712. (Lair:1)
18:04 <+greensnark> Rupert is awesome in the Lair
18:04 <+greensnark> Don't know if I've met him there though :P
18:04 < syllogism> I only have throw flame, maybe I should buy something better :P
18:04 <+greensnark> That will be enough :P
18:04 < syllogism> it's not :P
18:05 <+greensnark> It is. It's all in the mind.
18:05 <+doy> hmmm, and so special rooms could replace their custom wall tile type with a normal wall with the "don't ruin this" flag
18:05 <+greensnark> And I want to see you splat to Rupet :P
18:05 <+greensnark> doy: Yeah
18:05 < syllogism> I memorized OOD just for him, only costs a "ration" to use :P
18:05 <+doy> greensnark: what about an fprop for "moss-covered"?
18:06 < syllogism> I'm going to splat :P
18:06 < syllogism> thought OOD would do more damage :P
18:06 <+Keskitalo> Napkin: There shouldn't be white backgrounds, they should all be transparent. I'll check a tiles build..
18:06 <+Keskitalo> Napkin: Agnes looks cooool btw :)
18:07 <+greensnark> How's this for alternative Snake layout: http://sprunge.us/OWVB
18:07 <+greensnark> doy: Sounds fine to me
18:07 <+doy> on another topic, what about this for ballistos: giant spores don't trail ballistos as they move, only when they explode, but they have something of a chance of accidentally wandering randomly into monsters and exploding
18:08 < ais523> greensnark: nice and mazy
18:08 <+doy> and giant spore explosions anywhere on the level should be audible
18:08 <+greensnark> I agree re ballistos
18:08 <+greensnark> Or at least greatly reduce their chances of dropping spores when they wander
18:08 <+doy> the only issue with ballistos as far as i could tell is that they are spawned by giant spores just wandering around
18:08 < ais523> greensnark: would there be special stairs layout rules for that level, or just putting them anywhere?
18:08 <+doy> which means that the level could easily become full of them before you even realize what's going on
18:09 <+Keskitalo> greensnark: Looks unciviliced.
18:09 <+doy> dpeg: thoughts?
18:09 < ais523> doy: Angband has the issue with splitting monsters covering the level
18:09 <+Keskitalo> greensnark: Nice round shapes though.
18:09 <+doy> greensnark: looks nice, but i agree with Keskitalo... might be nice to have more walls, to give it more of a corridor feel
18:09 < ais523> typical strategy is to lock them in by closing doors, and running
18:09 <+greensnark> Hmm, yes
18:10 <@dpeg> doy: so what greensnark said on MOSS, yes?
18:10 <+Keskitalo> Yeah, when the corridor gets diagonal it shouldn't have holes.
18:11 <+doy> dpeg: yeah, moss should work pretty identically to blood
18:11 <+doy> just with a different color
18:11 <@dpeg> doy: agree re ballistos, but wouldn't the end result be the same if we toned down ballisto trail of spores? There is an advantage to spawning them only with explosions: we can announce the explosions level wide.
18:11 <+Keskitalo> I'm trying to make polymorphed monsters remember their original form. Matthew did this for PORKALATOR and I'm pretty much just copying that.
18:12 <+doy> it's a bit more widespread of a change than the rest of the stuff i did though, since it has to handle digging properly and such
18:12 <+doy> dpeg: yes, that was my thought, there should be some notification when ballistos are spawning
18:12 <+doy> and spore explosions would be a sensible way of doing this
18:13 <+greensnark> http://sprunge.us/ASbV
18:13 <@dpeg> greensnark: layout looks nice. Got a parameter to have it start very curvy and look more room-like civilised by branch end?
18:13 <+Keskitalo> greensnark: That was quick! Looks great now!
18:13 <+doy> i like it
18:13 <+greensnark> This is actually just the Shoals builder with different parameter values :P
18:13 <+doy> post it on the wiki(:
18:13 <+Keskitalo> :)
18:13 <+doy> heh
18:13 <+Keskitalo> greensnark: PUSH IT
18:14 < Mu_> whoa that looks sweet
18:14 <+doy> i do think that we should have multiple layout options for branches, when we start replacing the layouts entirely
18:14 <+doy> wasn't an issue for lair, since it uses the dungeon layouts as a base, of which there are many
18:14 <@dpeg> greensnark: ^^ ?
18:15 <+doy> but stuff like snake and crypt should have multiple layouts
18:15 <@dpeg> doy: I agree with base layouts. This reminds me? Why not allow the odd cavern level for Lair?
18:15 < Mu_> that reminds me more of slime than snake though really
18:15 <+doy> dpeg: there is
18:15 <+doy> dpeg: same chances of an odd cavern level in dungeon now though
18:15 <+doy> before, there used to be like a flat 33% chance or something
18:16 <+Keskitalo> greensnark: Can you do a similar curvy layout with rooms (like cities)?
18:16 <+doy> which wasn't good, since you can't really tell the difference between normal and ruined for those, very well
18:17 <@dpeg> doy: okay, sorry for misunderstanding
18:18 <@dpeg> doy: yes, I know. But it's a fundamentally different layout which does fit Lair, so having it once in a while is good.
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18:22 <@dpeg> "Dowan seems to find hidden reserves of power." :)
18:24 <+doy> as for the snake layout, we could probably just add that in now as a potential choice, but leave the rest of the layouts in for now
18:24 <+doy> and we can start replacing other layouts when we get more layouts for snake
18:25 <@dpeg> like I said, would be nice if later Snake levels look more civilised
18:25 <+doy> yeah
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18:26 < Ashenzari> Ballistomycetes (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=39) by dpeg
18:29 <+doy> dpeg: nice
18:30 <@dpeg> doy: what?
18:30 <+doy> dpeg: +5,+4 slaying
18:30 <+doy> (:
18:30 <@dpeg> that 39 item wiki is very old :)
18:30 <@dpeg> ah, yes I saved for it
18:31 <+doy> dpeg: yeah, it's from before i wrote ashenzari, so it wasn't in its cache of seen items
18:35 < cbus> have you normalized the starting values for stats?
18:35 <+doy> yeah
18:37 <@dpeg> Jesus, Shoals is tough
18:38 <+doy> well, you are xl11
18:38 <+doy> swamp is tough at xl11
18:38 <+doy> d:
18:38 <@dpeg> Darshan surely cranked it up :)
18:38 <+doy> (:
18:39 <+doy> man, tides are sweet
18:39 <+doy> @??sea snake
18:39 < Gretell> sea snake (S) | Speed: 14 | HD: 10 | Health: 40-90 | AC/EV: 2/15 | Damage: 24(strong poison) | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: magic(40) | Chunks: poisonous | XP: 871.
18:39 <+doy> @??anaconda
18:39 < Gretell> anaconda (S) | Speed: 18 | HD: 11 | Health: 33-88 | AC/EV: 4/16 | Damage: 30 | Flags: cold-blooded | Res: magic(44) | XP: 1136.
18:39 <@dpeg> at least somebody else died there too :)
18:39 <+doy> @??black mamba
18:39 < Gretell> black mamba (S) | Speed: 18 | HD: 7 | Health: 21-56 | AC/EV: 4/15 | Damage: 20(medium poison) | Flags: cold-blooded | Res: magic(28), poison | Chunks: poisonous | XP: 454.
18:40 <+doy> sea snakes are between black mambas and anacondas in strength
18:40 <+doy> probably good to know
18:40 <+doy> (:
18:40 <+Keskitalo> should shea shnakes rhesist phoison?
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18:41 <+doy> not only are they almost as tough as anacondas, they also submerge
18:41 <+doy> that's awesome
18:41 <+doy> (:
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18:44 <@dpeg> Shoals is a good source for more large rocks...
18:44 <@dpeg> just have to not die
18:45 <+greensnark> Keskitalo: Yes, I'll play with more roomlike layouts
18:45 <+Keskitalo> greensnark: Excellent! ^_^
18:46 <+doy> and people complain about labs being too hard
18:47 <@dpeg> doy: wimps!
18:47 <+doy> seriously
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18:48 <@dpeg> Str 35 -- CC 1092
18:48 <+greensnark> Wait, people complain about labs being too hard?
18:48 <+doy> yeah, i'm kinda worried that carrying capacity is a bit extreme now
18:49 <+doy> greensnark: yeah, i don't get it at all
18:49 <+greensnark> You mean "people" plural, as in, not just cbus? :P
18:49 < ais523> why would anyone be complaining about portal vaults being too hard, when they could just not go in them?
18:49  * Keskitalo starts to think that monster polymorph should be handled with a constructor in monsters class
18:49 <@dpeg> ais523: bad argument!
18:50 <@dpeg> this is like "you don't have to do Sokoban"
18:50 < CIA-81> greensnark * r9a308a7dd9f9 /crawl-ref/source/ (6 files): Move island-building code from dgn-shoals.cc->dgn-height.cc.
18:50 < ais523> well, many NetHack players skip Mine's End
18:50  * doy !
18:51 <@dpeg> doy: you do? 
18:51 <+doy> yeah, mines end is worthless
18:51 <+greensnark> dpeg: Keep playing, I want to see a splat :P
18:51 <@dpeg> ha, no spalt
18:51 <@dpeg> erm splat
18:51 <+greensnark> Well, not in the Lab, obviously
18:51 <+greensnark> Get back to Shoals and then you can exercise your splat techniques :)
18:51 <+doy> !lg * splat=y place=shoals
18:51 < Henzell> No games for * (splat=y place=shoals).
18:51 < Ashenzari> Pikel's slaves not pacified on other floors (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=413) by minced
18:52 <+greensnark> doy: See! Shoals are safe as houses <3
18:52 <+greensnark> Hey, dpeg left!
18:52 <+greensnark> No fair
18:53 <+greensnark> !lm dpeg uniq=Dowan
18:53 < Henzell> 9. [2010-01-13] dpeg the Grappler (L11 TrHu) killed Dowan on turn 13274. (D:5)
18:53 <+greensnark> 9 times :/
18:53 <+greensnark> !lm . uniq=Dowan
18:53 < Henzell> No milestones for greensnark (uniq=Dowan).
18:53 <+greensnark> This is a conspiracy to defraud me of my D&D kills.
18:53 <+doy> dpeg: what is carrying capacity at now, 40*str?
18:53 <+greensnark> !lm dpeg uniq=Duvessa
18:53 < Henzell> 8. [2010-01-13] dpeg the Grappler (L11 TrHu) killed Duvessa on turn 13121. (D:5)
18:53 <+greensnark> !lm . uniq=Duvessa
18:53 < Henzell> No milestones for greensnark (uniq=Duvessa).
18:54 <@dpeg> still something wrong with the exclusions
18:54 <@dpeg> doy: 25*Str
18:54 <@dpeg> let me check
18:54 <@dpeg> 30 Str -- CC 967
18:54 <@dpeg> you do the math :)
18:55 <+doy> 967 is just a ludicrous amount of carrying capacity though
18:55 <+doy> getting that at 30 str seems excessive
18:56 <+Keskitalo> Hmm. Porkalator seems to store the whole monster in props for reverting. Polymorph could do the same, but I had trouble doing that, because the monster object is passed to the function as a pointer (and I'm probably failing C++).
18:56 < AceTetra> i don't know, carrying 27 giant spiked clubs and a SDA seems reasonable
18:57 <+doy> yeah, it's (body weight * 2) + (str * 30)
19:04 <+doy> i'd be in favor of dropping that to 25
19:05 <@dpeg> 164 gold in a bazaar :(
19:05 <@dpeg> doy: it's not just the Str -- Trolls are heavy
19:05 <@dpeg> so they have a high base
19:06 <+doy> their base is only 150 of that
19:06 <+doy> 125 out of the 967 if you don't count burdening
19:06 <+doy> only ~100 more than a spriggan
19:06 <+doy> which is reasonable
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19:17 <@dpeg> doy: are you sure?
19:17 <@dpeg> the base CC should be much more different!?
19:18 <+doy> dpeg: well, i suggested that originally, and you said no, because you wanted str to actually have a noticable impact
19:18 <+doy> oh, sorry, for cc, base weight counts twice
19:18 <+doy> but still
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19:22 < purge> mmmm crawl needs more interesting races
19:22 < purge> more as in numerical
19:22 <+greensnark> Is that (more) (interesting races) or (more interesting) (races)
19:23 <@dpeg> doy: well, part of the plan was to make Str more useful. It didn't matter much wrt CC.
19:23 <@dpeg> purge: there is a very long wiki page dedicated to that.
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19:23 < purge> i am anxiously awaiting the demonspawn revamp
19:24 <+greensnark> Is that in for 0.6?
19:24 <+greensnark> Yay, autozerk
19:24 <+doy> depends on if sorear manages to come back
19:24 < purge> i think sorear said it was nearly finished?
19:24 <+greensnark> Perhaps I shouldn't have quaffed !oMut
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19:24 <@dpeg> These snapping turtles mean serious business.
19:24 <+doy> @??snapping turtle
19:24 <@dpeg> purge: no, there is lots to do.
19:24 < Gretell> snapping turtle (t) | Speed: 9 (act: 80%) | HD: 10 | Health: 30-90 | AC/EV: 16/5 | Damage: 30 | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: magic(40) | XP: 152.
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19:26 < purge> !killsby alligator snapping turtle
19:26 < Henzell> One game for * (ckiller=alligator snapping turtle): 1x MUMMY
19:27 <+doy> @??alligator snapping turtle
19:27 < Gretell> alligator snapping turtle (t) | Speed: 8 (act: 80%) | HD: 16 | Health: 112-176 | AC/EV: 19/2 | Damage: 50 | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: magic(64) | XP: 638.
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19:29 <@dpeg> hah, the tide has my large rocks :O
19:29 <+greensnark> Can I has SHoals splat?
19:29 <+Keskitalo> Napkin: Grum looks really strange. O_o
19:29 <@dpeg> no way, Yrdy will see to that
19:29 <+Keskitalo> Kobold doesn't show at all.
19:29 <+greensnark> I've had a long hard day filled with responding to complaining clients
19:29 <+greensnark> A Shoals splat would completely make it worth it <3
19:29 < syllogism> level 13 troll sounds splatty
19:30 <+greensnark> Yeah, this is just Shoal:1
19:30 <+Keskitalo> Napkin: Nikola shows correctly in the game, and in my Paint.net it has a transparent background.
19:30 <+Keskitalo> Napkin: Hmm. Grum seems pasted on top of the gnoll picture.
19:30 <+greensnark> Maybe Nikola should be renamed
19:30 <+doy> he was trying it at xl11 earlier, came quite close to splatting about two or three times
19:30 <+doy> greensnark: i'd be in favor of that
19:31 < Napkin> http://crawl.develz.org/info/tile.php?q=Grum
19:31 < Napkin> re!
19:31 < Napkin> why does he look strange?
19:32 < purge> strange?
19:32 <+Keskitalo> He is printed on top of a normal gnoll.
19:32 < Napkin> not for me
19:32 <+greensnark> i - the +2 plate mail "Buh Blah" {Dex+4 Dam+3}
19:32 < Napkin> wait, screenshot
19:32 <@dpeg> the +2 plate mail "Buh Blah" <3
19:32 <+greensnark> What a name <3
19:32 <+greensnark> dpeg: Yeah!
19:32 <+Keskitalo> Not sure about that red pixel though..
19:32 -!- Netsplit kubrick.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: Henzell
19:32 < Napkin> yes, that one I see too
19:33 < Napkin> that pixel
19:33 <@dpeg> tasty turtle :)
19:33 <+greensnark> dpeg: Hey, don't eat those turtles, they're endangered :P
19:33 -!- Twinge [n=user@97-124-172-56.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
19:33 -!- Twinge [n=user@97-124-157-202.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
19:34 <+greensnark> An impaler
19:34 < purge> would invis work well against those merfolk and javalineers?
19:35 <+greensnark> Yes
19:35 <+Keskitalo> Napkin: I'll post a screenshot shortly..
19:35 <+greensnark> Also impalers have pretty lousy MR :P
19:35 <+greensnark> @??merfolk impaler
19:35 < Gretell> merfolk impaler (m) | Speed: 10 (atk: 60%) | HD: 12 | Health: 60-108 | AC/EV: 0/23 | Damage: 28 | Flags: amphibious | Res: magic(48) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 1076.
19:36 -!- Twinge- [n=user@97-124-167-163.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
19:36 <+Keskitalo> Napkin: http://bugi.oulu.fi/~evktalo/crawl/grum_on_gnoll.png
19:36 <+Keskitalo> Firefox 3.5.7 on WinXP
19:37 <@dpeg> no description for open sea
19:39 <+doy> someone should really write that in-game bug report functionality
19:39 <+doy> (:
19:40 <@dpeg> where are the harpies
19:41 -!- Twinge- [n=user@97-124-162-54.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
19:44 <@dpeg> greensnark: sorry, game is too easy
19:44 <@dpeg> no splat
19:44 <+greensnark> :P
19:44 <+greensnark> Harpies are probably too rare atm
19:44 <+doy> yeah, should bump them up a bit
19:44 <+greensnark> You seem to be burning a lot of piety :P
19:44 <+doy> that's what piety is there for!
19:45 <@dpeg> greensnark: I am only an agent of Yredelemnul
19:46 < MarvinPA> you missed a shoals splat, greensnark :P
19:47 < MarvinPA> well, a mara splat
19:47 <+greensnark> A Mara splat?
19:47 <+greensnark> Ooh!
19:47 < Napkin> yes, dpeg - i only supports monster descriptions at the moment
19:47 <+greensnark> Hahahaaha
19:47 <+greensnark> !tell due !lg n78291 Shoal -tv
19:48 <+greensnark> Where's Henzell :/
19:49 < MarvinPA> netsplits D:
19:49 <+doy> !lg n78291 Shoal -tv
19:49 <+doy> oh, that's henzell too
19:49 <+doy> also
19:50 <+doy> i don't really like mesmerizing using "out of los" coloring for places you can't move to
19:50 <+doy> it's misleading
19:52 < purge> dpeg is having some siren trouble hehe
19:52 <@dpeg> Napkin: oh, I didn't mean CDO. I mean there is no description *in game*.
19:53 <+greensnark> Do scrolls of immolation not produce steam?
19:53 <+doy> pretty sure there was at some point
19:53 -!- Eifel [n=Eifel@dslb-084-063-009-123.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Tööö waaahhh!!!"]
19:53 -!- Eifel [n=Eifel@dslb-084-063-009-123.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
19:55 < ogaz> greensnark: I don't think henzell is online at all
19:55 -!- Netsplit over, joins: Henzell
19:56 <+doy> !lg n78291 Shoal -tv
19:56 < Henzell> 5. N78291, XL18 NaEE, T:70067 requested for FooTV.
19:57 -!- Twinge [n=user@97-124-157-202.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
19:57 <+Keskitalo> Soo the tide washes fish on dry land? :-D
19:58 <+doy> mara is nasty
19:58 <+doy> (:
19:58 < ogaz> !log n78291
19:58 < Henzell> 5637. N78291, XL18 NaEE, T:70067: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/N78291/morgue-N78291-20100113-184602.txt
19:58 -!- ais523 [n=ais523@unaffiliated/ais523] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
19:58 < ogaz> The ball lightning hits you with a runed demon whip!
19:58 < ogaz> what?
19:58 <+greensnark> Misled
19:58 < ogaz> ah
19:58 <@dpeg> doy: there is no reason for immolation not to produce steam, right?
19:59 <+doy> dpeg: well... it's really more 'explosion' than 'fire', considering it doesn't affect scrolls, and doesn't leave clouds otherwise
20:00 <+greensnark> !tell due Mara splat: !lg * ikiller=Mara -tv
20:00 < Henzell> greensnark: OK, I'll let due know.
20:05 <+greensnark> dpeg's doing pretty well :)
20:06 <+doy> yred seems pretty powerful, should try it out sometime
20:06 <+Keskitalo> Yred is good.
20:07 <@dpeg> there you have your splat
20:07 <+doy> aw
20:07 <+greensnark> There's always that danger :)
20:07 <@dpeg> first time I met an alligator snapping turtle :)
20:07 <@dpeg> how much damage did you give them? 300?
20:07 <+greensnark> Close :)
20:07 <+doy> @??alligator snapping turtle
20:07 < Gretell> alligator snapping turtle (t) | Speed: 8 (act: 80%) | HD: 16 | Health: 112-176 | AC/EV: 19/2 | Damage: 50 | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: magic(64) | XP: 638.
20:07 <@dpeg> doy: Yrdy is a powerhouse
20:07 <+doy> stronger than a stone giant!
20:08 <+doy> and with reaching!
20:08 <@dpeg> people misunderstand and misjudge him
20:08 <@dpeg> doy: yes, should have stopped at once
20:08 <+doy> dpeg: people are still used to his old form, i'm guessing
20:08 < Twinge-> TSO should definitely disapprove of sickness as well, if that was never decided on.  (Reading backlog, since even after a day it's still kinda short this time)
20:08 <@dpeg> doy: which wasn't that much worse
20:08 <@dpeg> Twinge-: no idea what you're talking about. But---> god wiki =)
20:08 <+doy> shrug, i wasn't that impressed before
20:09 <+doy> but haven't tried it since all the changes happened
20:09 <@dpeg> doy: the misunderstanding bit :)
20:09 <+doy> (:
20:09 <+greensnark> Life drain always rocked
20:09 <+greensnark> But Yred servants used to be weaker
20:09 <+greensnark> And there was no pain mirror
20:09 <+greensnark> Pain mirror is pretty double-edged though
20:10 <+Keskitalo> Aww.. scratch one for Team Turtle!
20:10 <+greensnark> dpeg: I'm planning to increase harpy numbers, weaken impalers slightly per rob's suggestions and weaken turtles. Thoughts?
20:10 <+greensnark> Well, weaken alligator turtles
20:10 <+greensnark> By making them a notch slower
20:10 < purge> greensnark: maybe decrease their chance to steal food if they appear more often?
20:10 <@dpeg> greensnark: yes, sounds all good
20:10 <+greensnark> The common snapping turtles are fine :P
20:10 <@dpeg> I am sad I didn't see a kraken :(
20:11 <@dpeg> greensnark: yes, the t and S are fine
20:11 <@dpeg> I mean, the snapping turtle
20:11 <@dpeg> greensnark: double-edged is good!
20:11 <@dpeg> should have used that against the alligator, grrr
20:11 <+greensnark> It would still have killed you :P
20:12 < Ashenzari> immolation does not produce steam anymore (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=414) by dpeg
20:12 <+doy> did immolation used to produce steam?
20:12 <+greensnark> Can't recall
20:13 <@dpeg> you said it :P
20:13 <@dpeg> at least, I put your names in ther
20:13 <@dpeg> e
20:13 <+doy> hey, what
20:13 <+doy> i didn't say anything d:
20:13 <+greensnark> Wel, I wasn't sure :)
20:13 <+greensnark> doy: I think he meant me :P
20:13 <+doy> greensnark: he meant both of us
20:13 <+doy> (:
20:13 <+greensnark> Oh, ok, both of us :)
20:14 <+doy> in any case, i have no opinions
20:14 <+greensnark> It'd be nice if it produced steam
20:14 <@dpeg> hehe, lots of kills by uniques in the list, nice
20:14 <+greensnark> The scroll becomes more useful
20:14 <@dpeg> greensnark: it is useful already
20:14 < cbus> dpeg, too many uniques nowadays
20:14 <@dpeg> but it would really help vs sirens
20:15 < cbus> dpeg, you either get a unique or two on each level or a ghost
20:15 <@dpeg> cbus: as long as they kill and are diverse, I won't complain
20:15 <+greensnark> dpeg: Did you see N78291's Mara splat?
20:15 <@dpeg> no
20:15 <@dpeg> where is it?
20:15 <+greensnark> !lg * ikiller=Mara -tv
20:15 < Henzell> 1. N78291, XL18 NaEE, T:70067 requested for FooTV.
20:15 <+greensnark> On FooTV
20:15 <@dpeg> ??FooTV
20:15 < Henzell> footv[1/4]: telnet termcast.org (and then select the letter for FooTV). do not use SSH. Shows games requested using !tv. Request games by adding -tv to !lg, !lm or !hs, cancel games by adding -tv:cancel to the same command-line, clear playlist with !lg * -tv:nuke
20:15 < cbus> ?? missled
20:15 < Henzell> I don't have a page labeled missled in my learndb.
20:16 < cbus> what does missled mean?
20:16 <+doy> ??misled
20:16 < Henzell> I don't have a page labeled misled in my learndb.
20:16 <+greensnark> It's like NH hallucination
20:16 <+doy> cbus: basically like nethack hallucination
20:16 <+doy> except i don't think it changes every turn?
20:16 < Eronarn> robocop?!
20:16 < cbus> and that means that all your inventory are random?
20:16 < cbus> and you see random stuff on screen?
20:16 <+doy> cbus: no, just monsters
20:16 <@dpeg> awesome
20:16 <+greensnark> That spellcasting message for illusions is off
20:16 < cbus> !learn add missled The monster glyphs will be random.
20:17 < Henzell> missled[1/1]: The monster glyphs will be random.
20:17 <@dpeg> greensnark: I was about to say that it is much better than hallucination
20:17 <+doy> !learn mv missled misled
20:17 < Henzell> I don't know about !learn mv.
20:17 <+doy> bah
20:17 <+greensnark> !tell due "N78291's illusion throws stone arrow at you." <-- spellcasting messages needed!
20:17 < Henzell> greensnark: OK, I'll let due know.
20:17 <@dpeg> because it is a temporary effect in battle
20:17 <+doy> ??howtousethelearndb
20:18 < Henzell> howtousethelearndb[1/5]: The four main commands for the learndb are add, query, edit, and delete. See [2] for add, [3] and [4] for edit, [5] for query. You can read entries in private queries to Henzell. You cannot change it in private, however.
20:18 <+greensnark> There doesn't seem to be a rename or move command
20:18 <+doy> lame
20:18 <+kilobyte> one bug: going through stairs immediately clears "misled" (as illusions are "too far from their source"), killing Mara doesn't
20:18 <+doy> there is a swap command
20:18 <+doy> but doesn't work unless the target already exists
20:19 <+greensnark> Tiresome :)
20:19 <+doy> yeah
20:19 <+greensnark> !lg * killer=Aizul Shoal:5 -tv
20:19 < Henzell> No games for * (killer=Aizul Shoal:5).
20:20 <+greensnark> Eifel was using wands of flame and frost on Aizul at 25hp
20:20 <@dpeg> anyway, I only played a TrHu because my KeHu got nowhere :(
20:20 <@dpeg> :)
20:21 <@dpeg> was Aizul almost dead?
20:21 < cbus> dpeg, I got that ghost
20:21 < cbus> but it died
20:21 <+doy> !lg * cv=0.6 s=-crace
20:21 < Henzell> 13651 games for * (cv=0.6): 96x Centaur, 101x Demigod, 110x Ghoul, 172x Halfling, 214x Hill Orc, 216x Troll, 217x Deep Dwarf, 307x Minotaur, 329x Merfolk, 354x Human, 392x Draconian, 431x Sludge Elf, 481x Vampire, 566x Mummy, 601x Naga, 694x Mountain Dwarf, 717x Ogre, 768x Kenku, 819x Kobold, 900x Spriggan, 1096x Deep Elf, 1208x High Elf, 2862x Demonspawn
20:21 <+greensnark> !log Eifeltrampel Shoal:5 killer=Aizul
20:21 < Henzell> 1. Eifeltrampel, XL14 DDNe, T:45475: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/Eifeltrampel/morgue-Eifeltrampel-20091225-233940.txt
20:21 < cbus> btw, does rupert get slow after berserk?
20:21 < cbus> it didn't seem that way
20:21 < Eronarn> yes
20:22 <+kilobyte> scrollback: I finally managed to get a spriggan to Pan.  CC is fairly brutal at 9 str, but it's easily fixed with a single good ring of strength.  I guess that's the effect you wanted, dpeg.
20:22 < cbus> CC?
20:22 < cbus> ?? CC
20:22 < Henzell> I don't have a page labeled cc in my learndb.
20:22 <+kilobyte> so CC on the lower end seems acceptable.  For the high end, what about applying a stepdown (perhaps just one) after, say, 600 aum?
20:22 <+kilobyte> cbus: carrying capacity
20:23 < cbus> kilobyte, whats CC?
20:23 < cbus> ahh ok
20:23 < cbus> !learn add CC Abbreviatied form of Carrying Capacity.
20:23 < Henzell> cc[1/1]: Abbreviatied form of Carrying Capacity.
20:23 <@dpeg> kilobyte: yes, it is
20:24 <+kilobyte> cbus: the abbrev was thoroughly used during discussion on the nerf, not at all elsewhere
20:24 <@dpeg> !learn edit CC s/Abbreviatied/Abbreviated/
20:24 < Henzell> cc[1/1]: Abbreviated form of Carrying Capacity.
20:24 < cbus> oops
20:24 <@dpeg> kilobyte: how is your Spriggan doing? TSO?
20:25 < cbus> kilobyte, never seen it so might aswell add it
20:25 < Eronarn>     *
20:25 < Eronarn> Mole person
20:25 < Eronarn> Poses a slightly different challenge than a goblin since it's less dangerous but harder to kill.     *
20:25 < Eronarn>       gray g
20:25 < Eronarn>     *
20:25 < Eronarn>       Stats: 1HD, similar to goblin, but with better AC, worse EV, less accurate, and only able to wield clubs
20:25 < Eronarn> who the hell submits stuff like thi
20:25 < Eronarn> s
20:25 <+doy> heh
20:26 <+kilobyte> dpeg: two fiends with hellfire.  There is absolutely nothing you can do to it except for wearing armour, or hoping they decide not to cast.
20:26 <+doy> yeah, really should go through and cut out like 3/4 of the things on that page
20:27 < Eronarn> there are like two things on that list i like
20:27 <@dpeg> Eronarn: there is one guy who adds to the wiki but doesn't sign.
20:27 <@dpeg> kilobyte: in 0.6, EV will rock the world.
20:28 <+kilobyte> for anything else in the game, you can prepare: get resists, have an amulet, have enough healing items... hellfire being the only exception
20:28 <@dpeg> yes
20:28 < Eronarn> dpeg: should be able to find out who it is just checking revisions - that one was copied over by doy from SF though, i believe
20:28 <@dpeg> greensnark: could you have a look at temple_green in temple.des? (It's a small vault.) It might have problems with connections near the ? glyphs?
20:28 <@dpeg> Eronarn: ok
20:29 <+kilobyte> right now I'm definitely bitter, but even before that splat, I suggested hellfire hurting you _worse_ with AC.  You definitely don't want to be in a metal can when you're being roasted.
20:29 < Eronarn> dpeg: do you have any thoughts on the jiyva mutation proposals? (not just the specific mutations, but the mutation framework as well)
20:30 <@dpeg> Eronarn: oh, not right now. Didn't look at that for a while. Will comment.
20:30 <@dpeg> Eronarn: also, we need your DS stuff to keep going!
20:30 <@dpeg> kilobyte: could you survive a single hit of hellfire?
20:30 < Eronarn> dpeg: Last day of class (ever!) is Thursday
20:31 <@dpeg> oh, someone finished studies?
20:31 < cbus> dpeg, is EV getting a buff in 0.6?
20:31 <+kilobyte> single, yes.  It's 50-70ish damage, lemme check the exact values.
20:31 < Eronarn> Class + work eats up most of my time right now, but I'm capped at 20h per week at my job, so once class ends I'll have a lot more free time
20:31 <+doy> ??hellfire
20:31 < Henzell> hellfire[1/4]: Attack used by certain high level demons and priests.  Much like smiting, but does about thrice as much damage and destroys your scrolls.  Also hurts adjacent monsters.  Not affected by rF.  Fortunately, it *is* affected by AC.
20:31 <+doy> ??hellfire[2]
20:31 < Henzell> hellfire[2/4]: Comes in two flavors.  Hellions, deep elf high priests, and draconian zealots use hellfire bursts, which can explode anywhere in LOS and do 3d20 damage.  Deep elf sorcerers, (pit) fiends, and draconian scorchers use vanilla hellfire, which is 3d25 but requires a clear path.
20:34 <+kilobyte> someone (due?) talked about removing hellfire altogether due to reasons for it being no longer true, giving fiends fireball and hellions baby firestorm (perhaps even _named_ hellfire)
20:34 <@dpeg> cbus: yes. We plan to remove the cap of the Dex effect.
20:34 -!- Mu_ [i=Mu@cpc14-live9-0-0-cust109.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place."]
20:34 <+kilobyte> that's perhaps too deastic
20:34 <+kilobyte> s/dea/dra/
20:35 < cbus> dpeg, nice
20:35 <@dpeg> kilobyte: hm, perhaps necessary, perhaps not. I'd wait and see on this one.
20:35 < cbus> dpeg, gonna be a game full of minmaxing :)
20:35 < cbus> dpeg, (int vs dex on hybrids)
20:36 <@dpeg> cbus: well, not as trivial choices as before, I hope
20:36 <@dpeg> short-term (Dex) vs long-term (Int)
20:36 <+kilobyte> but IMO at least something should be done to it doing ~10% maxhp to heavy armour builds and ~60% maxhp to fighting spriggans and ~80% maxhp to DE/Sp casters
20:36 <@dpeg> well, not quite
20:37 <@dpeg> wait, I thought AC has no effect on hellfire?
20:37 <+kilobyte> it more than halves it
20:37 < cbus> dpeg, it does
20:37 < cbus> dpeg, its the only thing that does
20:37 <@dpeg> oh
20:37 < cbus> dpeg, resistances don't
20:37 < cbus> but AC does
20:37 <@dpeg> right, res..
20:37 <+kilobyte> "fire" in "hellfire" is a misnomer
20:37 <@dpeg> well, yes
20:38 <@dpeg> hellpain :)
20:38 <@dpeg> we can change that, of course, I'd just not do it on short notice
20:38 <@dpeg> kilobyte: simply AC not having an effect would drastically change matters (because EV is still there)
20:39 <@dpeg> so a tin can would get hit every time with no reduction
20:39 <+kilobyte> no, hellfire ignores EV
20:39 <@dpeg> kilobyte: but you can evade it?
20:39 <+kilobyte> not at all
20:39 <@dpeg> oh
20:39 <@dpeg> this is very unfair, I agree
20:40 <+doy> i think ac affects hellfire just because ac affects basically everything
20:40 <+doy> i don't think that's an intentional special case
20:40 <@dpeg> perhaps
20:41 <+doy> ac reduces damage from things like fireballs too
20:41 <+doy> i think smite, torment, and poison are the only things that bypass it
20:41 <@dpeg> we could also make Hellfire affect everything everytime (i.e. neither AC nor EV help), only that we'd have to scale down the damage
20:41 <+kilobyte> the game is basically: will this fiend decide to cast hellfire twice in ~15 turns instead of wasting time tormenting you or something?  Then you're dead.
20:42 <+doy> eronarn had the idea of making hellfire act have cerebov's sword effect
20:42 <+kilobyte> hellions are squishy and 2-3 applications of airstrike (it has LOS range) make them go.
20:42 <+doy> where it reduces your fire resistance by some amount
20:42 <@dpeg> Hm, we could make a Fire/Ice distinction by saying that Fire cannot be reduced by AC where Ice cannot by avoided by EV (or less).
20:42 < elly> it should be the other way
20:42 < Eronarn> dpeg: that doesn't make sense
20:42 < Eronarn> both fire and ice have "single-target" effects
20:42 <+kilobyte> hellions are still hell for non-casters and non-air casters of course, but at least for this build they were manageable
20:42 < Eronarn> both fire and ice have "fill" effects
20:43 <@dpeg> well, I think we should have something that clearly sets the elements apart
20:43 <@dpeg> in the long run
20:44 < Eronarn> sure, but i think that's better accomplished by changing the spells and effects individually
20:45 < Eronarn> making fire/ice damage work differently doesn't make much sense because there are tons of sources for either damage type
20:45 <@dpeg> no, need to have a basic plan
20:45 <@dpeg> before we do this spell by spell, we have to have a feeling for what is what
20:46 <+kilobyte> hellfire doesn't belong to any of the elements
20:46 <@dpeg> yes
20:46 <@dpeg> I got there from somewhere else.
20:46 <+doy> well, hellfire resistance also grants fire+++
20:46 <+doy> but yeah, making it separate would be a decent idea
20:46 -!- by [n=rob@g225127041.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined ##crawl-dev
20:46 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v by] by ChanServ
20:47 <+by> good evening
20:47 < Eronarn> yes, but i'm saying something like your proposal would be attempting to enforce consistency where it hasn't existed previously and would require significant changes to spells to justify, when spells could be changed in other ways to improve their uniqueness (such as making, say, ice spells do damage over time)
20:47 <@dpeg> by: Hallo
20:47 <@dpeg> Eronarn: this would be another option
20:47 <@dpeg> but there's no large scale change without a theme
20:49 < Eronarn> yeah, just saying i strongly dislike the AC/EV theme you proposed :)
20:50 < CIA-81> kilobyte * r6b9548eb3df8 /crawl-ref/ (6 files in 2 dirs): Make merged slime creatures light green, acid blobs light cyan.
20:50 < CIA-81> kilobyte * rf6a7496a215d /crawl-ref/source/show.cc: Don't mess with memory of slime creatures when in tiles.
20:53 <@dpeg> kilobyte: need to recolour then acid blobs as well
20:53 <+doy> "acid blobs light cyan."
20:53 <+doy> ?
20:54 <@dpeg> erm, whatever the light green J is
20:54 <@dpeg> gotta go, too :)
20:54 <+doy> acid blobs were light green J, he recolored them to light cyan
20:54 < cbus> eronarn, thematically fire should do that rather than ice (being on fire)
20:54 < cbus> eronarn, but poison already does that
20:55 < cbus> @@? acid blob
20:55 < cbus> @?? acid blob
20:55 < Gretell> acid blob (J) | Speed: 14 | HD: 18 | Health: 54-144 | AC/EV: 1/3 | Damage: 42(acid) | Flags: sense invisible | Res: magic(168), poison, acid+++, asphyx | XP: 3847.
20:55 < Eronarn> cbus: no, different - intense heat does not necessarily start a damaging fire
20:55 <@dpeg> themes could also be long/short range, how reliable, etc.
20:55 <@dpeg> that's for later
20:55 -!- dpeg [n=dpeg@dis.angband.pl] has quit ["bye"]
20:56 <+kilobyte> I'm not sure about light cyan, but http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=394
20:56 < Eronarn> cold doing damage depends explicitly on reducing temperature
20:57 <+kilobyte> yeah, things which work differently like Icicle already do only part of their damage as cold
20:59 < Eronarn> yep - and would fit with the long-lasting effects on cold-blooded creatures
21:12 < Napkin> rax, are you in?
21:13 <@rax> Yes, though at work. What's up?
21:16 < Napkin> hey!
21:16 < Napkin> sorry, didn't see you reply
21:17 < Napkin> would you be motivated to setup an rsync of the learndb with me? one day or another?
21:19 <@rax> I'd be happy to do it; if it's just running a command I could do it now, if it's going to take a while, probably this weekend.
21:19 < Napkin> weekend is fine
21:19 <@rax> Cool. :)
21:19 < Napkin> best would be to setup a separate account, exchange ssh keys, and allow that account to access the folder (read permissions) and access to the rsync command
21:25 < Napkin> rax: have a look - that the result so far: http://crawl.develz.org/info/index.php?q=sigmund
21:26 < Napkin> (now additionally contains in-game description and graphic tile and links from one learndb entry to another work too.)
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21:27 < Napkin> but, it's doing quite a few http request to akrasiac - and of course would be fast with rsync'ed learndb :)
21:27 <@rax> Oh awesome!
21:27 <@rax> Yeah I think rsyncing the learndb would be fine. We're already transferring logfiles, right?
21:28 < Napkin> only via wget from your end
21:28 < Napkin> btw - every 15 seconds :D
21:28 < Napkin> not the full log though - only changes - but it's checked every 15 seconds ;)
21:28 <@rax> Ah. :)
21:28 <@rax> I thought that was rsnyc for some reason.
21:29 < Napkin> we had started to setup rsync or at least automated ssh in the past - but then.. the reason was gone and we didn't finish it
21:29 < Napkin> you and me, i mean
21:29 <@rax> *nods* That sounds familiar.
21:30 < Napkin> alright then - just catch me on the weekend when you have time? i haven't planned much :)
21:31 <@rax> Will do! Not sure of my schedule yet, but I'll add this to my list.
21:31 < Napkin> excellent :)
21:32 < Ashenzari> possible to enslave your own zombies (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=415) by minced
21:37 < Ashenzari> trunk demonspawn of Trog can gain increased MP mutation (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=416) by minced
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22:02 < cbus> thats not wrong :)
22:03 < cbus> now that amulet of guardian spirit is there
22:03 <+doy> ?
22:03 < cbus> 21:37:02 < Ashenzari> trunk demonspawn of Trog can gain increased MP mutation (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=416) by minced
22:03 <+doy> what about it?
22:03 < cbus> they get a usage for the extra MP?
22:04 <+doy> ah, yeah
22:04 < cbus> Sp are awesome with it
22:04 < cbus> (since they have more MP than HP) :D
22:05 < Eronarn> "oGS is... really weird
22:05 < Eronarn> it's crippling for some characters but probably overpowered for others
22:05 <+doy> yeah, i'm still not sure how i feel about it
22:05 <+doy> it's an interesting idea
22:06 < Eronarn> doy: i still favor the proposal i had made for it, in some variant
22:06 <+doy> which was?
22:08 <+sorear> Eronarn: amulet of bloodlust {*RAGE Int+2 Dam+2} is cripling for some characters and overpowered for others
22:08 < Eronarn> it doesn't use up your full mana pool... either less chance to kick in with decreasing MP, or it won't kick in at all below a certain MP (e.g., it will only use up your from-level-gain and racial MP rather than your spellcasting/invo MP), or reduces your MP by a flat amount always
22:08 < Eronarn> sorear: yes, but it's not a base amulet :)
22:08 < cbus> eronarn, its nice for high EV low HP high MP :)
22:09 < cbus> (aka Sp short bladers)
22:09 < Eronarn> the amulet revision seems to want to get rid of obvious-choice amulets
22:32 < Ashenzari> Pikel Tile Submission (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=417) by purge
22:33 < purge> haha sorry all caps :P
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22:42 < Cryp71c> In trunk are DS's odds of getting good / bad muts from "Potion of Mutation" different than the non-DS char?
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22:44 < ogaz> I don't think so
22:45 < Cryp71c> I didn't think so either, but I've quaffed 6-7 pots of mut as a DS since I came back to all the DS changes
22:45 <+doy> ds mutations are competely separate and unrelated to regular mutations
22:45 < Cryp71c> and not 1 has had a negative effect.
22:46 <+sorear> not quite
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22:46 <+sorear> some of the mutations are incompatible
22:46 <+sorear> if you have 'slow metabolism', you can never get 'fast metabolism'
22:47 <+doy> ah, true (although i thought we were going to get rid of ds mutations like that?)
22:49 < Cryp71c> ...
22:51 < Cryp71c> Either RNG is seeding poorly, or DS have a better chance to get good mutations than bads. I quaffed 48 pots of mutation and had 0 negative mutations by the end of that series (some muts were +1stg -1 dex, etc.)
22:51 < Cryp71c> I quaffed 48 more pots of mut and ended up with blurry vision, but otherwise rest good muts
22:51 < Eronarn> sorear: just edited in my proposal for how the scale system should work
22:51 < Eronarn> it may be unclear, but i need to go to class
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22:56 < TGW> seems to me like listing T&D with the ocations would be better than listing stealth above spc
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23:18 < Cryp71c> Hrm, i didn't know a DS mut's were determined at char start
23:20 <+doy> so is draconian color
23:20 <+doy> it doesn't matter especially
23:30 < CIA-81> kilobyte * r8beb1c180db8 /crawl-ref/source/ (49 files): Trim unnecessary #includes.
23:36 < CIA-81> kilobyte * rc1de3fc787a2 /crawl-ref/source/items.cc: Fix a throwback to the 8-bit era in "Items here: +++ /// ))".
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23:38 <+sorear> kilobyte: what's wrong with using the smallest type that works?
23:41 < TGW> kilobyte: what was that last commit?
23:43 <+kilobyte> sorear: a glyph needs at least 21 bits, not 8.
23:45 < cbus> +0,+5 scim of speed or +0,+4 triple sword of holy wrath?
23:45 < TGW> welcome to crawl-dev
23:45 < TGW> where we discuss long blades
23:45 < cbus> well I'm not getting any answer from the othre channel :)
23:53 < Ashenzari> Aizul (HD 14 Naga) On Orc 4 (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=418) by Cryp71c
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