00:00 < Vandal> The point is, aptitudes and stats (even low MP) can be circumvented
00:00 <+doy> Vandal: so?
00:00 < eith> whats the problem?
00:00 <+doy> you still haven't explained why that's bad
00:00 < eith> it should be possible to make anything with anything tbh
00:00 <+doy> the low damage on a hand axe can be circumvented by farming for slaying items
00:00 < Vandal> I didn't say there is a problem
00:01 <+doy> then why are you trying to fix it?
00:01 < eith> what are you trying to fix? =p
00:01 < Vandal> I was responding to a comment dpeg made
00:01 < Vandal> hence I started with dpeg:
00:01 < Vandal> You guys don't have to jump down my throat
00:01 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r132901b920bf /crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-mon/harpy.png: Clean up harpy tile.
00:01 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r60e7de28f121 /crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-mon/ (6 files in 2 dirs): Greatly improve tiles for mermaids, sirens and Ilsuiw.
00:01 < eith> we act as filters :o
00:01 < Vandal> I'm sure he appreciates it
00:02 <+doy> Vandal: just because you directed the comment at dpeg doesn't mean that other people can't disagree with it d:
00:02 < Vandal> Well if you'd really like to get involved, here:
00:02 < Vandal> http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:species:halfling
00:02 < Vandal> become more familiar with the context
00:03 <+doy> i am familiar with the context
00:04 < Vandal> good :)
00:04 < Vandal> As far as Ha goes, I was proposing at least 2 very strong racial traits that would need strong counters built into the race as well
00:05 <+kilobyte> counters, like, being a halfling?
00:05 < Vandal> kilo did you see Giantslayer or Hardy?
00:05 < cbus> nice change on fulsome distillation
00:05 < cbus> (larger corpses seem to give better shit)
00:05 < Vandal> They're pretty dang strong
00:05 < Vandal> cbus I think it was always meant to work that way
00:06 < Vandal> they did fix a bug though?
00:06 <+kilobyte> current halflings are 100% like Tolkien ones: both physically and mentally equal to human 10 year old kids
00:06 < cbus> vandal, yeah, but I have never gotten degeneration from ogres and stuff
00:06 <+kilobyte> so it's hard to overimprove them
00:06 < Vandal> :)
00:06 <+kilobyte> (but easy to kill their theme while improving)
00:07 < Vandal> Yeah I wasn't going with the Tolkien theme
00:07 < Vandal> I was going off due's "non-magical" Assassin overhaul
00:07 < Vandal> Trying to make a non-magical stabber / sneak viable
00:07 < Vandal> w/ Blowguns
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00:09 < eith> i still dont get why you want to cripple the already magic crippled races though
00:09 < Vandal> I don't
00:09 < ogaz> the problem with making a nonmagical stabber viable is that there's no reason why you couldn't pick up some enchantments and get an even better stabber
00:09 < Vandal> eith I never said old races need to get this new penalty, dpeg just mentioned them not having it
00:10 <+doy> "the problem with making a nonmagical ranged attacker viable is that there's no reason why you couldn't pick up some conjurations and be an even better ranged attacker"
00:10 < eith> yea ive read that
00:10 < eith> <Vandal> dpeg: re: reduced magic levels on Ha page, it is a new concept that I think could be used on Mi / Tr and other poor spellcasting races to drive the point home in a way besides just having bad apts.  Bad apts can be overcome with farming, -9 spell levels is unavoidable
00:10 < eith> what about this though?
00:11 < Vandal> "could be used" isn't "they should totally have this"
00:11 < eith> its proposing it =p
00:11 < Vandal> or "need"
00:11 < cbus> vandal, after a while you stopped getting useful potions too btw
00:11 <+kilobyte> conjurations are quite redundant with ranged combat, enchantments are awesome, even at mere 2-3 level
00:11 < Vandal> that stinks, cbus :[ I've never really gotten too far with a Tr because frankly I don't like them :o
00:13 <+doy> kilobyte: then that just means that enchantments need to be toned down
00:13 <+doy> which we're planning on doing
00:13 < Vandal> ^ this
00:13 <+kilobyte> I mean, for a low-magic char
00:14 < Vandal> having conjurations and ranged combat be viable allows for races with completely different aptitudes to take part in long distance attacking
00:14 <+kilobyte> if you don't do ranged combat, then conjurations are as good or better (unless you get Spriggan apts, but even then you use sting/what not)
00:15 <+kilobyte> you do conjurations _or_ ranged combat
00:15 < Vandal> right
00:15 < Vandal> I guess I didn't get your point
00:15 < Vandal> "No reason not to use enchanting as a stabber" ?
00:16 <+doy> kilobyte: i'm not sure what point you're trying to make?
00:17 < Vandal> I think he means that because there is such a low investment of XP required to make Enchantments useful, there is no real reason to have an entirely non-magical stealth / stabber
00:17 <+kilobyte> my point is that -9 spell levels won't stop people from using magic
00:17 < Vandal> oh
00:17 < Vandal> No, it won't
00:17 <+doy> Vandal: yes, and my point is that that means that enchantments is the broken part
00:17 < Vandal> kilo it is more of a racial distinction thing than a heavy penalty
00:18 < Vandal> they also would have bad apts :P
00:18 <+doy> what good is a racial distinction that you never notice?
00:18 < Vandal> This is just a test race, the spell levels penalty could be used when other races get revised at whatever point
00:19 < Vandal> Like, under the 7 level apts table, there won't be a 250 apt any more iirc
00:19 <+doy> also, for what it's worth, i don't like ambusher, precision, or giantslayer
00:19 <+kilobyte> bad apts and - spell levels means you won't have high-level Ha casters
00:19 <+doy> since these are just trying to not use aptitudes for the sole purpose of not using aptitudes
00:19 <+doy> hardy is interesting though
00:19 < Vandal> So if you want Trolls to still have some of the penalties associated with 250 spellcasting
00:19 <+kilobyte> yet for low-level ones, you would have to do something else to stop every monster getting weakened by 8 stings
00:19 < Vandal> You might need to give them this -spell levels
00:21 < Vandal> and yeah, I think giantslayer is more interesting in the "bigger they are, bigger bonus" form than the one listed
00:21 < Vandal> in the main section
00:22 < Vandal> Precision can probably be erased and Giantslayer reworked to apply to all direct physical damage sources
00:22 < Vandal> Ambusher as well could use more work.. I was being lazy there I admit
00:22 < eith> i like hardy and giantslayer
00:23 < eith> but precision is meh, accuracy is not needed, and ambusher is way complex
00:24 < Vandal> there
00:24 < Vandal> Based on feedback that I appreciate and acknowledge (eith!), I've edited the main listing
00:24 <+doy> giantslayer seems like it would need some kind of justification
00:24 <+doy> having "is good at killing large things" as a racial trait doesn't make much sense
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00:25 <+doy> and yes, shouldn't be dependent on the weapon used
00:25 <+doy> other than possibly being melee or ranged only
00:25 < Vandal> I already edited it to be more like the last thing I said on the page
00:25 < Vandal> The justification is, these are not Tolkien Hobbits, they know how to fight, and are used to fighting things bigger than they are
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00:26 < Vandal> It is a source of pride perhaps even, being able to kill something bigger than themselves
00:26 <+doy> having "they know how to fight" be a racial trait seems bad, personally
00:26 < Ashenzari> jpeg created page Tiles that need adjusted at http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:feedback:tiles:tiles_that_need_adjusted
00:26 < Vandal> Well you didn't even let me finish :P
00:26 <+doy> finish then!
00:26 <+doy> (:
00:27 < Vandal> [18:30] <Vandal> It is a source of pride perhaps even, being able to kill something bigger than themselves
00:27 < Vandal> well that was most of where I was goign
00:27 < eith> =p
00:27 < Vandal> they train specifically to fight things bigger than they are
00:27 <+due> hellooo
00:27 < Henzell> due: You have 5 messages. Use !messages to read them.
00:27 < Vandal> hi due
00:27 <+doy> so every member of this halfling race is proud of being able to fight things better than themselves
00:27 <+due> ... five?
00:27 < eith> whoa, 5
00:27 < Vandal> and none are from me!
00:27 <+doy> this seems... questionable
00:27 < eith> oh dpeg sent you loads
00:28 <+due> I looked it up in the dictionary
00:28 <+due> Malarious is the adjective form of malaria.
00:28 < eith> yea, its right
00:28 <+due> Malarial is something slightly different, I think.
00:29 <+due> dpeg: And yes, I was reading the think about blowguns and decided that dropping the shield delay is probably a bad idea.
00:29 <+due> Vandal: No more slings training throwing!
00:29 < Vandal> due! I saw! excellent!
00:29 < Vandal> :DDD
00:30 <+due> Keskitalo: Thanks! I'm happy with the Dowan buff.
00:30 <+due> Did someone manage to fix the fireball thing?
00:30 <+doy> "the fireball thing"?
00:30 <+due> doy: Dowan will fireball himself if you're right next to him.
00:30 <+doy> heh
00:30 <+due> doy: I can't makes heads or tails of the tracer code to fix it myself.
00:31 <+due> Pikel's slaves... whenever Pikel's tagged to leave the level, it could trigger the slave freeing.
00:31 <+due> And possibly individually for whenever one of Pikel's slaves is tagged to leave the level.
00:32 <+due> Another shaft on D:27. How is that possible?
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00:36 < AceTetra> doesn't everything with fireball blast itself?
00:36 <+due> greensnark: Whoa, failedd validation 25 times without veto? That's freaky.
00:36 < AceTetra> i keep seeing deep elf mages do it
00:36 <+due> AceTetra: There's a bug with explosion tracers, I think.
00:37 <@dpeg> back
00:37 <+due> wb!
00:38 < Vandal> * Ambusher - needs reworked.  One new idea, 150% to 200% damage with ranged attacks when attacking an enemy that hasn't seen you yet.  This could actually be made into a normal feature of the game for all races, to promote Stealth + Ranged synergy and builds.
00:39 < Vandal> I'm assuming of course that when you kill something it would make enough noise to wake up stuff in the room with it
00:39 < Vandal> at range
00:39 < eith> sniping would be cool, but would be really hard to balance. would be easy to exploit
00:39 < Vandal> real stabbing would be a lot more quiet than shooting someone in the face with a bow
00:40 <@dpeg> ranged stabbing is very strong, probably overpowered
00:40 < Vandal> well it wouldn't be a stab..
00:40 <+due> Hm.
00:40 <@dpeg> we had something like this in mind for (only) neeldes
00:40 < cbus> hello mr mass hibernation
00:40 < cbus> :D
00:40 < Vandal> Stabs are like.. +30 dmg +600% and other ridiculously huge modifiers
00:40 <+due> More bugs with the memorisation interface. Do we want to consider 52+ spells even working?
00:41 < cbus> due, btw, would be cool if the interface said what books it was taking the spells from
00:41 < cbus> or sort by book
00:41 <+due> Yeah, I like the interface, but it's not really viable with multiple books.
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00:42 < Vandal> cbus, I think mass hib would not work very well, because killing something with a bow would make noise vs. stabbing which does not
00:42 < Vandal> and hib is already a penalized sleep state
00:42 <@dpeg> sort by book is not good, imo
00:42 <+due> dpeg: I think we just need to limit it to 52 spells.
00:43 <@dpeg> one good point of the new system is that books don't matter and spells are sorted by success
00:43 <@dpeg> due: yes, fine by me
00:43 <+due> And a message at the end of the list, "You have too many spell books to organise the spells in them. _Please drop some."
00:43 <@dpeg> yes
00:44 <+due> Auto-exclusions need to not set level annotations.
00:44 < cbus> dpeg, I honestly get confused by the memorisation interface and drop every book except the one I want to learn from
00:45 < cbus> (only done it with 2 books since I don't usually carry them around, but still)
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00:46 <+doy> cbus: why do you care about the books?
00:47 < cbus> doy, because I know what to search for in each book
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00:47 <@dpeg> Napkin: awesome cycling analysis, many thanks!
00:48 <@dpeg> Napkin: I tried to figure it out some time, but always lost. (Never made notes though.)
00:49 <@dpeg> hm, preferences differ, but the new memorisation system is much better for me -- not least because I don't have to remember item letters abynire
00:49 <+doy> yeah, the new memorization interface is a lot better
00:49 < cbus> dpeg, yeah its better, but still confuse old players :D
00:49 <+doy> i don't really like cutting it off at 52 spells though
00:49 <@dpeg> cbus: the old players have to adapt or die :P
00:50 < cbus> doy, sounds like a workaround rather than a fix
00:50 <+doy> yeah
00:50 <@dpeg> doy: we also cut the inventory at 52 letters :)
00:50 < cbus> if you want an extreme
00:50 < cbus> remove spellcasting and the problems disappears
00:50 < cbus> :D
00:50 <+doy> dpeg: but that has actual gameplay effects
00:50 <+doy> this is entirely interface
00:50 <@dpeg> yes, but not really
00:51 <+doy> no, it really is
00:51 <@dpeg> ?
00:51 <+doy> the selection of spells on the memorization screen is entirely an interface issue
00:51 <+doy> unless i'm missing something?
00:52 <@dpeg> doy: yes, but not really _crucial_ ;(
00:52 <@dpeg> erm
00:52 <@dpeg> I am typing in the dark, sorry
00:52 <@dpeg> (:
00:52 <+doy> i suppose(:
00:52 <+doy> but what's wrong with just lettering only the visible spells?
00:52 < cbus> is it really a problem tohugh? :D
00:52 <+doy> and reusing letters for different pages?
00:53 < cbus> weight > spell books
00:53 < cbus> :D
00:53 < cbus> atleast with the new weight stuff
00:53 <@dpeg> doy: players with 600 line consoles!
00:53 <+doy> dpeg: 80x24 is the One True Terminal Size
00:53 <+doy> we don't need to cater to heretics
00:53 <+doy> d:
00:53 < cbus> <3 doy
00:54 < cbus> doy, tiles users are heretics too right?
00:54 < cbus> (since they don't use 80x24) :D
00:54 <+doy> dpeg: but really, we could just put a hard limit of 52 items per page in any case
00:54 <+doy> regardless of terminal height
00:54 <@dpeg> doy: I know. 80x24 for life.
00:55 <@dpeg> doy: of course. I'd suggest to take any solution that is simple. It's really not crucial.
00:55 <+doy> true enough
00:55 < cbus> just display the maximum amount of letters you have and make it possible to scroll
00:55 < cbus> isn't that the easiest?
00:56 <@dpeg> don't know
00:57 <+due> The easiest is to limit it to 52 spells and have a note "You have too many spells to organise! Get rid of some spell books first."
00:58 <@dpeg> probably
00:59 <@dpeg> that is status quo plus an if statement with an additional line to print
00:59 <+doy> due: but so unfriendly!
01:00 <+due> doy: Sure, :) Feel free to do something else if you prefer.
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01:00 <+doy> that sounds too much like actual work... i just like arguing
01:00 <+doy> (:
01:01 <@dpeg> boo :)
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01:01 < Vandal> Are you guys planning on introducing more noise effects to the game?
01:01 <+due> Matthew was working on noise effects... 
01:01 <+due> It was basically a new noise system. I don't think it'll go into 0.6, though.
01:01 < Vandal> I mean like, more actions making noise
01:01 < Vandal> that sort of thing
01:01 < cbus> shaft traps might be a bit too common btw
01:02 < cbus> I hit like 3 of them before reaching lair 5
01:02 <+doy> Vandal: yes, that's part of matthew's noise system
01:02 <@dpeg> cbus: yes, they system is still not working as intended
01:02 <@dpeg> so bad
01:02 < Vandal> I see
01:02 < Vandal> Well that gives me another idea to replace Ambush on Ha with
01:02 <+due> I think that won't hit until 0.7, at least.
01:02 < Vandal> I wasn't expecting anything on the Ha page to happen until .7 :)
01:03 < Vandal> If at all
01:03 <@dpeg> aptitude changes are always okay
01:03 < Vandal> Depends on too many things that aren't in yet
01:03 < Vandal> well yeah
01:03 <+due> I was referring to the noise change for 0.7.
01:03 < Vandal> Those could be changed, but they won't really fill the niche I have envisioned until the Thief god + player traps are in
01:03 <@dpeg> why postpone the noises?
01:04 <+due> dpeg: Because Matthew has obviously been really busy recently?
01:04 <+due> I wasn't saying that it should be postponed, just that it looks like it will be, unless Matthew has the time to do it.
01:04 <@dpeg> well, but aren't parts usable
01:04 <+due> Or someone takes over.
01:04 <@dpeg> for example, all fighting making noise?
01:04  * due nod.
01:04 < eith> i like the idea of that
01:04 < Vandal> Silent Hunter~ racial trait that reduces the noise they make relative to other races on all actions.  Not truely silent of course ;>
01:04 < Vandal> As a replacement for Ambusher
01:05 <@dpeg> would make a good mutation
01:05 <+due> Hm.
01:05 <+due> A mutation would be "You are surrounded by a cone of silence".
01:05 < eith> nice :D
01:05 < Vandal> I was also considering just leaving the bizarro-Ha with 2 special traits and forgetting the Ambush one
01:05 <+kilobyte> due: that would suggest a perma-silence effect
01:05 <+due> kilobyte: But cone of silence! <#
01:05 < Vandal> because Hardy and Giant Slayer are pretty dang powerful by themselves
01:06 < Vandal> (well and they'd have 3 anyway with Slow Meta 1 retained)
01:08 <@dpeg> Vandal: also, less is more
01:08 < Vandal> :) those poor humans, nothing special at all about them
01:08 <@dpeg> could happen that Ha becomes viable (i.e. well-defined, not necessarily powerful) with much less changes
01:08 <+due> I think Ha are already viable with shields apt.
01:09 < Vandal> viable but still very Kobold-ish
01:09 < Vandal> my goal was to make them very different from Kobolds
01:10 <+due> But not like Spriggans? :)
01:10 <+due> !apt ko armour
01:10 < Henzell> Ko (SK_ARMOUR)=140
01:10 < Vandal> No, not at all like Spriggans :D
01:10 <+due> !apt ha armour
01:10 < Henzell> Ha (SK_ARMOUR)=150
01:10 <+due> !apt sp armour
01:10 < Henzell> Sp (SK_ARMOUR)=170
01:10 <+due> Hm.
01:10 <+due> What about reducing that to 110 or 120?
01:10 < Vandal> then they're just small elves
01:11 <+due> True.
01:12 < Vandal> I think good EV + good Shields is a strong defense
01:12 <@dpeg> yes
01:12 <+due> !apt sp shields
01:12 < Henzell> Sp (SK_SHIELDS)=180*
01:12 <@dpeg> moreso in 0.6 I hope
01:12 <+due> It is.
01:12 <+due> Bucklers are *great*.
01:12 <@dpeg> need to reply to Samuel
01:12 <+due> I honestly want to do a long blades HaBe with bucklers now.
01:13 < cbus> !apt Ha SK_LONG_BLADES
01:13 < Henzell> Ha (SK_LONG_BLADES)=100
01:13 < cbus> !apt Ha SK_SHIELDS
01:13 < Henzell> Ha (SK_SHIELDS)=130
01:13 < cbus> !apt Ha SK_DODGING
01:13 < Henzell> Ha (SK_DODGING)=70
01:13 <+due> It's 90 now.
01:13 < cbus> !apt Ha SK_ARMOUR
01:13 < Henzell> Ha (SK_ARMOUR)=150
01:13 <+due> For shields.
01:13 < Vandal> cbus they were changed to 90 on CDO
01:13 < cbus> ahh ok
01:13 <+due> ??dowan
01:13 < Henzell> dowan[1/1]: Early deep elf unique caster (with no melee attack). Casts throw frost, throw flame, haste, corona and minor healing. Shows up with his sister, {Duvessa}. Will run away in fear if you kill Duvessa in his line of sight.
01:13 < Vandal> <-- XD
01:13 < cbus> due, SK_DODGING or SK_ARMOUR?
01:13 <+due> cbus: Shields.
01:13 <+doy> yeah, someone needs to update henzell's copy of the source tree
01:13 <+doy> well
01:13 <+doy> maybe
01:14 < Vandal> And due
01:14 < cbus> due, yeah, but will you use heavy armour or dodging?
01:14 <+doy> i guess having henzell look at 0.5.2 source is better
01:14 <+kilobyte> doesn't Henzell do stable?
01:14 < Vandal> buffing their hp to the Sludge Elf level would be worth more than just what players can see
01:14 <+due> !learn edit dowan[1] s/Will.*$/Will find "hidden reserves of power" when Duvessa dies, be hasted, and replace his conjurations with fireball, corona with blink./
01:14 < Henzell> dowan[1/1]: Early deep elf unique caster (with no melee attack). Casts throw frost, throw flame, haste, corona and minor healing. Shows up with his sister, {Duvessa}. Will find "hidden reserves of power" when Duvessa dies, be hasted, and replace his conjurations with fireball, corona with blink.
01:14 < Vandal> Combined with the shields + EV the *effective* hp boost is more drastic
01:14 <+due> dpeg: Thoughts?
01:14 <+due> What's your "hardy" racial mutation?
01:15 < Vandal> Fireball is instant death
01:15 < Vandal> You can run from a Berserker
01:15 <+due> It might be a bit much, but we'll see.
01:15 <@dpeg> due: more Ha changes? The easy ones, sure.
01:15 <@dpeg> The big ones I'd wait with.
01:15 <+due> dpeg: Well, specifically HP increase?
01:15 <@dpeg> is probably not controversial
01:16 < Vandal> due:
01:16 < Vandal> Hardy - Resistance to Sickness, Stat Loss, Mutations, and Glow fades 33% faster. The new Halfling is a very hardy creature, not easily diseased, or altered by magical or natural means.
01:16 <+due> Hm.
01:16 <@dpeg> the important bit species-wise is DS
01:16 <+due> Vandal: Let's leave that for 0.7. I'll do the HP today, though.
01:16 < Vandal> word
01:16 <@dpeg> what about renaming Ha to Gn?
01:16 <@dpeg> getting rid of the Tolkien baggage
01:16 < Vandal> :D
01:16 < Vandal> Sweet
01:16 <+doy> dpeg: would screw up stats!
01:16 <+doy> (:
01:16 <+due> Well.
01:16 <+due> I like the idea.
01:17 <+due> Or "hauflin".
01:17 < Vandal> I love my Gnome from World of Warcraft XD
01:17 <+doy> Sludge Gnome or something, maybe
01:17 <+doy> (:
01:17 < Vandal> eww
01:17 <+due> Sludge Gnome! <3
01:17 < Vandal> no more Sludges!
01:17 <+due> Deep Gnome?
01:17 <@dpeg> no healing, sure
01:17 <+doy> too many deeps already
01:17 < Vandal> They're not deep..
01:17 <+due> Haha, no.
01:17 < Vandal> They're hunters
01:17 < cbus> dpeg, Gn <3
01:17 <+due> Forest Gnome?
01:17 <@dpeg> but that's for later
01:17 < cbus> due, garden gnome?
01:17 <@dpeg> Garden Gnome
01:17 < Vandal> hahaha
01:17 <+doy> hehe
01:17 < cbus> :D
01:17 <@dpeg> I am German, I can say that :)
01:17 <+due> HAHAHA.
01:17 < cbus> Garden Gnome of DEATH
01:18 < cbus> nice necro title
01:18 <@dpeg> <3
01:18 <+due> I don't think we can use Gnome, though.
01:18 <@dpeg> Farming Garden Gnome of Death
01:18 <@dpeg> due: why?
01:18 <+due> dpeg: Because it'll be too confusing to people who've played 0.4.5 and will expect them to be the same.
01:18 < syllogism> ...
01:18 < cbus> due, and has that stopped the devteam from any former changes?
01:18 <@dpeg> nah, think forwards not backwards
01:18 < syllogism> who played gnomes anyway? :P
01:18 < cbus> syllogism, I did a GnHe :D
01:19 < cbus> they were pimp
01:19 < cbus> !hs * -char=GnHe
01:19 <+due> We haven't exactly deleted a race for a major version and then renamed another race to the old one before.
01:19 < Henzell> 83. 78291 the Talismancer (L27 GnHe), worshipper of Nemelex Xobeh, escaped with the Orb and 8 runes on 2008-12-15, with 3092258 points after 154925 turns and 10:21:48.
01:19 < cbus> !hs * -char=GnHe -2
01:19 < Henzell> 82. Butch the Farming Skullbreaker (L27 GnHe), worshipper of Okawaru, escaped with the Orb and 17 runes on 2008-01-20, with 2963568 points after 247996 turns and 64:53:27.
01:19 < cbus> !hs * -char=GnHe -3
01:19 < Henzell> 81. cbus the Spry (L27 GnHe), worshipper of Elyvilon, escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2007-10-27, with 1230096 points after 119452 turns and 13:02:11.
01:19 <+doy> i don't like reusing gnomes
01:19 <+due> Goblin?
01:19 <@dpeg> don't be silly
01:19 <+due> :D
01:19 < cbus> dpeg, any plans on a giant race? :D
01:19 <@dpeg> no plans
01:19 <+doy> just import it straight from 4.1
01:19 < cbus> it should be reintroduced :)
01:20 <+due> Ooh, brownies. <#
01:20 <@dpeg> well, I can wait with the Gnome renaming
01:20  * kilobyte wants a cat race.
01:20 < Vandal> Let me think up some things for Ha if you really want them to get a new name :)
01:20 <+due> Vandal: Not for 0.6, again. :)
01:20 <+due> Because we'll never be able to agree.
01:20 < Vandal> right
01:20 <+doy> the halfling rename should probably wait until the major halfling changes anyway
01:20 <+due> Er, agree before the deadline. :)
01:20 <+doy> (:
01:20 < Vandal> I don't think Halfling is really a bad name
01:20 <+due> I'd do it just to shut qvvs up. :)
01:20 < Vandal> They're Hobbits in tolkier primarily
01:21 < Vandal> qvvs?
01:21 <+due> Someone who delights in telling people that "XYZ is from ABC".
01:21 < Vandal> oh
01:21 <+doy> d&d uses 'halfling'
01:21 < cbus> rename halfling to midget
01:21 < cbus> problem solved
01:21 < cbus> :D
01:21 <+due> cbus: Politically incorrect, sorry. :)
01:21 <@dpeg> gnome is older
01:21 < Vandal> d&d also has elves, dwarves, and humans
01:21 < cbus> due, "Height challenged character with hairy feet"
01:21 < cbus> thats halfling
01:22 <@dpeg> not invented
01:22 < Vandal> kobolds, orcs, goblins, and gnolls
01:22 <+due> I like gnome.
01:22 <@dpeg> orcs invented
01:22 < cbus> vandal, s/gnolls/gnome/
01:22 <+doy> i don't like reusing the name
01:22 <@dpeg> again, silly discussion, sorry for kickstarting it
01:22 <+doy> it will be confusing to older players, and it will screw up the stats on cao
01:22 <+doy> (:
01:22 <+due> dpeg: "orc" is anglo-saxon for monster/demon, I think.
01:22 <+due> But anyway.
01:22  * due nips discussion in bud.
01:22 < Vandal> due that is cool to know :o
01:22 <+due> Why is it that names are *always* contentious topics?
01:23 <+doy> hehe
01:23 <@dpeg> comment on http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:misc:ac or http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:messagespam
01:23 <@dpeg> due: because everyone can have an opinion
01:23 <+due> Sure. :)
01:23 <@dpeg> no insight required
01:23 <+due> And we all delight in expressing opinion.
01:23 <+due> Also, if I have time tonight, I am going to code Grinder tonight. <3
01:24 <@dpeg> Grinder?
01:24 <+due> Imp torturer.
01:24 < Vandal> a new unique?
01:24 < Vandal> awesome DX
01:24 < Vandal> XD
01:24 <@dpeg> due: I know I owe you to the Botono, and I will deliver. But: troves?
01:24 <+due> Oh, yes.
01:24  * due puts troves back on the list... before Grinder. :(
01:24 <@dpeg> sorry
01:24 <+due> No, it's okay
01:24 < cbus> Miner
01:24 <@dpeg> but troves are important
01:24 <+due> Yes
01:25 <@dpeg> Binder, Blinder and Grinder meet in a dungeon.
01:25 <@dpeg> reading r.g.r.nethack (yes I suck) I just realised that part of NH's problem is that all the limits can be reached: max luck, max this, max that.
01:26 <@dpeg> bad design
01:26 <@dpeg> limits should be out of reach
01:26 < cbus> out of bound exception
01:26 <+kilobyte> lower limits for the hp :p
01:26 < cbus> dpeg, the game would be alot harder by just getting rid of alchemy :)
01:27 <@dpeg> kilobyte: :P
01:27 <@dpeg> cbus: I always thought the same, but alchemy and polypiling are minor offenders
01:27 <+due> dpeg: Though, in that same regard: MP cap?
01:27 <+due> ;)
01:27 <+due> (Sorry, that was nasty.)
01:27 <@dpeg> well, the difference is that NH has no MP cap
01:27 <+kilobyte> the worst thing that ever happened to Nethack was definitely writing Elbereth.  That beats most other issues.
01:28 < cbus> kilobyte, when was it added?
01:28 <+due> Elbereth is bad because of how necessary it is.
01:28 < cbus> is it a new addition?
01:28 <@dpeg> kilobyte: yes, a criminally stupid idea
01:28 < cbus> Elbereth is to nethack what iddqd is to doom
01:28 < cbus> :D
01:28 <+due> If people can't survive the early game and you have to add writing Elebereth in to fix it--you've... not fixed it.
01:28 -!- TGW [n=TGW@c-68-61-239-31.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
01:28 <@dpeg> added to gain a bit of odd (it was well hidden early on, so pure spoiler knowledge) flavour, thereby transforming and breaking the whole game; forcing the players to rape the interface from turn 1 onwards
01:29 <@dpeg> and the last active dev was not aware of that
01:29 <+due> There are no active devs, right?
01:29 <@dpeg> Pat
01:29 <+due> Oh, really?
01:29 <+due> I thought it was a dead project.
01:29 <@dpeg> active == cares about something
01:29 <@dpeg> due: sure is
01:29 <@dpeg> but it has a spokesperson
01:29 < cbus> dpeg, so no more releases? :)
01:30 <@dpeg> I bet no.
01:30 <@dpeg> Would be willing to bet money on this one.
01:32 < Vandal> would it be possible for Gretell to indicate if a monster is a ranged attack, or comes with armor or a melee weapon normally?
01:33 < Vandal> Like, yesterday I noobed it up by looking up Stone Giants and saying "wow those actually kill people?", not knowing they usually killed people via giant boulders
01:33 <@dpeg> hehe
01:33 < eith> haha
01:33 <+doy> what?
01:33 <@dpeg> you will soon learn to love them, because they are your primary source of new boulders
01:33 <+doy> stone giants usually kill people in melee, i'm pretty sure
01:33 <+doy> !lg * killer=stone giant s=kaux
01:33 < Henzell> 432 games for * (killer=stone giant): 276x , 156x Hit by a large rock thrown by a stone giant
01:34 <+doy> yeah
01:34 < Vandal> oh? well they'd do a completely stupid huge amount more dmg thorwing a boulder than by hitting someone in melee
01:34 < Vandal> maybe people die after closing the gap to avoid a boulder to the face
01:34 < eith> its the same surely
01:34 < syllogism> it's not the same at all
01:34 <@dpeg> doy: well, many of those 276 may have been softened up by boulders :)
01:34 < ogaz> stone giants are more dangerous in melee ime
01:34 <+doy> 45 is a serious amount of damage
01:34 < Vandal> no.. eith monsters get insanity bonuses to ranged attacks
01:34 < Vandal> based on hd
01:34 < Vandal> and those have a lot of hd
01:35 < eith> oh yea, i remember orc warlords now
01:35 < syllogism> 95% of the time they'll probably do more in melee
01:35 <+doy> what syllogism said has been my experience
01:35 <@dpeg> hm, fun question: would it make sense to replace monster HD by an (equally assigned) monster XL?
01:35 < Vandal> huh.
01:35 < eith> thats why i was saying its the same =p cause it feels the same =p
01:35 < ogaz> dpeg: aren't they the same thing?
01:35 <+doy> dpeg: just renaming it, you mean?
01:35 <+due> Stone giants and cyclopses are... terrifying.
01:35 < Vandal> well that makes me feel better
01:36 <@dpeg> is it just that
01:36 <+doy> dpeg: effectively
01:36 < Vandal> because I was worried they could do more than 45 dmg with the boulders
01:36 <@dpeg> ah, thought I came up with somethign new :)
01:36 < Vandal> like a lot more
01:36 <+doy> dpeg: it's a d&d-ism
01:36 <+due> dpeg: It would make sense.
01:36 <@dpeg> urgs
01:36 < syllogism> well you never see references to HD ingame
01:36 <+doy> players get xl, monsters get hd
01:36 < syllogism> do you?
01:36 <@dpeg> syllogism: I know
01:36 < ogaz> !lg * killer=stone giant kaux=~large rock max=dam x=dam
01:36 <+doy> i think it's because xl means a lot more - skill points, etc
01:36 < Henzell> 156. [dam=48] Blazeraid the Impaler (L14 MfCr), worshipper of Okawaru, hit from afar by a stone giant (large rock) on D:15 on 2009-05-30, with 57683 points after 40804 turns and 7:13:12.
01:36 <+due> syllogism: likewise you never see a reference to "Satiated" in game.
01:36 < Vandal> ah
01:37 <+doy> hd is just "how many times do you roll the hit point die to assign their maxhp?"
01:37 <+due> syllogism: but someone removed my "Satiated" comment from Cheibriados' description because it clashes with a fucking bad redefinition of the word in code.
01:37  * due grubmles.
01:37 < Vandal> hey while you're mentioned Chei
01:37 < Vandal> "Slouch" .. seriously?
01:37 <+kilobyte> doy: and, spell power, lots of combat stuff, resistance to may things, and so on
01:37 < Vandal> Your ultimate attack is bad posture?
01:37 <+due> Yeah.
01:37 <+due> I like it 'cos of Slouching Towards Bedlam... but.
01:38 < Vandal> what?
01:38 <+due> (And our crawl team was Crawling Towards Bedlam. <3)
01:38 < Vandal> ... I don't get the reference!
01:38 <+due> Vandal: It's the title of a really good interactive fiction, but it's also a reference to a poem.
01:38 <+due> Vandal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slouching_Towards_Bedlam
01:38 -!- nrook [n=nrook@ip68-14-16-167.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
01:38 < syllogism> couldn't get a stone giant do more than 4d14, it's typically 2dXX
01:39 <+due> dpeg: That needs to go on the agenda, though. Fixing up Chei's power names, titles, and messages.
01:39 <+due> Because... they suck.
01:40 <+doy> 4d14 is 56 max, but weighted a lot more towards the middle
01:40 <+doy> vs 1d45
01:40 < syllogism> doy: yes but that was really rare
01:40 <+doy> right, that too
01:41 <@dpeg> I staged two rounds of Cheibriados renaming stuff but got stuck both times.
01:41 <+due> Feh.
01:41 < Vandal> "Time Bomb" makes more sense and fits the theme
01:41 < Vandal> ;)
01:41 <+due> dpeg: Email me. I'm sure we can hash some good names out and implement them without dispute. :)
01:41 <@dpeg> Bomb the Speedy?
01:42 < Vandal> All the other abilities start with "Time"
01:42 <@dpeg> due: there were some good ideas and I collected them in an old mail
01:42 < Vandal> Which you might want to change too
01:42 <+due> Oh, good.
01:42 <+due> I'll search my inbox.
01:42 <@dpeg> cannot be arsed to dig it up
01:42 <@dpeg> ??gdr
01:42 < Henzell> I don't have a page labeled gdr in my learndb.
01:42 <@dpeg> ??gda
01:42 < Henzell> gold dragon armour[1/2]: 13 ac -9 ev +fire +cold +pois 110 aum.  The best heavy armour around. Don't forget to butcher those golden dragon corpses *without* praying. One is guaranteed on Tiamat. Remember, wearing/removing one is uninterruptible and takes forever!
01:43 < Vandal> due that looks like an interesting game / story
01:43 <+due> Vandal: It's Emily Short, and it's interactive fiction. :)
01:43 <@dpeg> what is the armour with best base AC in trunk?
01:43 <+due> Interactive Fiction is basically pretentiousness embodied. But in a cool way.
01:43 <+doy> ??crystal plate mail
01:43 < Henzell> crystal plate mail[1/2]: 14AC, -8EV, 120 aum.  The most massive heavy armour. Resists corrosion. It can be generated on D:1 very rarely. Of course, you will splat every time this happens.
01:43 <+due> dpeg: Storm Dragon Armour, no?
01:43 <@dpeg> thanks
01:43 <@dpeg> due: no no
01:43 <+due> Oh.
01:43 <@dpeg> SDA is middle
01:43 <+due> Armour, not dragon armour.
01:43 <+due> ??storm dragon armour
01:43 < Henzell> storm dragon armour[1/1]: A magical armour made from the scales of a lightning-breathing dragon. It is heavier than most dragon scale armours, but gives its wearer great resistance to electrical discharges. (heavy armour; AC 10, EV -5, insulation, 60.0 aum.)
01:44 <+due> I think storm should be heavier than gold.
01:44 <@dpeg> heavy middle =)
01:44 <@dpeg> no!
01:44 <+doy> i've seen like maybe 3 suits of crystal plate since i've been playing though
01:44 <+doy> it's crazy rare
01:44 <@dpeg> nerf GDA first
01:44 <+due> GDA is overpowered as-is, though.
01:44 < Vandal> gold is honestly a really heavy material :o
01:44 <@dpeg> due: we have nerfed it
01:44 <+due> dpeg: Nerf by swapping Storm and Gold!
01:44 <+due> It only lost two AC, though.
01:45 <+due> It's like 13->11, I think.
01:45 <+doy> due: two base ac
01:45 <+due> Yeah.
01:45 < syllogism> it's back to 11 finally? :P
01:45 <+doy> which translates to a decent amount
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01:46 < TGW> it was at 11 before, syl?
01:46 < Vandal> gold is also an excellent conductor.. :)
01:46 <+due> "syl"?
01:46 < TGW> logism
01:46 < syllogism> brett nerfed all dragon armour in 4.1
01:46 <+due> Oh.
01:46 < TGW> two to three is too much
01:46 < TGW> oh ok
01:46 < TGW> +syllables
01:46 <+due> Brett = nerf hammer embodied in human form, though, no?
01:46 < syllogism> and i think they were kept for the first release of SS
01:46 < Vandal> imo GDA should have weakness to Elec
01:46 < Vandal> :D
01:47 < syllogism> actually I lied, GDA was 10ac
01:47 <+doy> GDA would still be quite good at 10ac
01:47 < Vandal> I use gold plated HDMI connectors.. zappy zap zap, let that juice flow
01:47 <+due> Vandal: Heh, I use a coathanger.
01:48 <+doy> GDA at 10 and SDA at 11 would make sense
01:48 < Vandal> I don't actually watch TV.. it is for my PS3 :o
01:48 <+due> doy: +1.
01:48 < TGW> silver is a better conductor than gold, yeah?
01:48 < Vandal> Is it?
01:48 < eith> dont think so
01:48 <+due> TGW: Don't think so.
01:48 < eith> they would use silver on connectors then instead
01:48 <+due> TGW: Gold is the best conductor.
01:48 < syllogism> oh dragon armour were unnerfed as late as 0.3??
01:49 <+due> Copper is the best common, cheap conductor.
01:49 <+due> Silver is quite good, but it's a rare metal; gold is the best.
01:49 < Vandal> Electric Eels: bane of all Gold Dragon Armour users
01:49 <+due> Oh.
01:49 <+due> :S
01:49 <+due> TGW is correct, it is silver.
01:49 < TGW> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_resistivities_of_the_elements_%28data_page%29
01:49 < TGW> suck it
01:49 < TGW> I apologise for that
01:49 < Vandal> Gold is still a very good conductor
01:49 < TGW> hmm
01:49 < Vandal> just sayin'
01:50 < TGW> if silver is quick, then quicksilver should be quicker
01:50 < TGW> give them relec-
01:50 <+due> I like the idea of nerfing GDA by making it rElec-.
01:50 <+due> dpeg?
01:50 < syllogism> elec-, really?
01:50 < TGW> relec- sounds so drastic
01:50 < Vandal> well it makes you immune to so much other junk
01:50 < Vandal> well not immune
01:50 <+due> TGW: Well, it could just remove any electrical resistance you have.
01:50 <+due> "Cancels out insulations."
01:51 < syllogism> so basically you couldn't use it :P
01:51 <+due> It doesn't make you any more susceptible to electricity if you aren't already rElec+.
01:51 <+due> syllogism: Electrical damage needs to be nerfed anyway.
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01:54 < Vandal> You can overcome having -Elec on it by having +Elec on something else, right?
01:54 < Vandal> and +Elec only has 1 level
01:54 < Vandal> So you could get 2 +Elec on two different pieces of gear
01:54 < Vandal> and still resist even with a penalty on 1 item
01:54 <+due> Yeah.
01:55 <@dpeg> back
01:55 < Vandal> 3x resists and loads of AC for 1 vulnerability doesn't seem like a bad deal to me
01:55 <@dpeg> syllogism: I didn't even know that
01:55 < ogaz> getting rElec++ is rare
01:55 <@dpeg> Had I know about 4.1's nerf, I'd been more bold about GDA AC reduction.
01:55 <+due> And rElec is unfortunately necessary.
01:56 < syllogism> dpeg: the nerfs were kept until 0.3 or 0.2.x 
01:56 < Vandal> then wear Storm Dragon
01:56 < Vandal> When you need that
01:56 < Vandal> Or just not GDA
01:56 <+due> Vandal: Armour swapping is not possible. :)
01:56 < Vandal> Not possible? You can't stop on a level you cleared and change your suit before going into something nasty?
01:57 <+due> Ancient Lich appears!
01:57 <@dpeg> syllogism: but we removed 2 AC from GDA w/o compensation
01:57 < Vandal> People know to get rPois before Snake, this seems like that
01:57 < ogaz> vandal stop trying to theorycraft endgame when you've never been to endgame
01:57 <+due> ogaz: ...
01:57 <+due> ogaz: That's uncalled for.
01:57 <@dpeg> Vandal: really, rElec- is a bad idea
01:58 <@dpeg> OTOH, electrical damage is okay
01:58 <+due> dpeg: I like the idea, but it's not workable with how necessary rElec is.
01:58 < Vandal> Well ok then :)
01:58 <@dpeg> has been duly nerfed in the past
01:58 < syllogism> "Adjust dragon armour properties back towards 4.0 (they were using 4.1.2 props due to an accidental import circa 0.1). I've left hides closer to the 4.1.2 AC." -darshan :P
01:58 < syllogism> 3 years, 6 months ago
01:59 < syllogism> that's not right
01:59 < syllogism> the date that is
01:59 <+due> No, it's not.
01:59 < syllogism> it was june 2007
01:59 <+due> There's the CVS->SVN import, then the SVN->git import, no?
02:02 -!- purge [n=IceChat7@d192-24-82-173.try.wideopenwest.com] has quit ["."]
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02:06 <@dpeg> what is the state of the art for launcher brand generation?
02:07 <+due> It's limited to brands that are available on its ammunition.
02:08 < Vandal> Is there some kind of backstory to Agnes already, or can I have creative license with her description?
02:09 < Vandal> oooh.. I should look at monster speech too
02:10 < Vandal> What file is monster speech in?
02:12 <@dpeg> due: I think much more could be done here.
02:12 <@dpeg> Vandal: the only bit about is to be found in the unique speech
02:12 <@dpeg> dig yourself through the dat/ subfolders
02:13 -!- Cryp71c [n=rburnham@c-68-53-104-165.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
02:14 < Cryp71c> Was interested in - perhaps - getting into the dev of crawl, I don't suppose there is any particular area of the source which has a reasonable place to start? Also is a thorough understanding of the login system crawl sits on top of necessary?
02:14 < Vandal> I could point Cryptic to the wiki topics you showed me, dpeg
02:15 < Vandal> http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:interface:interface
02:15 < Vandal> dpeg suggested I try:
02:15 < Vandal> level map - first 2
02:15 < Vandal> name destroyed items
02:15 < Vandal> discoveries
02:15 < Vandal> from that page
02:15 < Vandal> I'm actually working on monster descriptions at the moment though
02:15 < Vandal> So those are all open
02:19 < Vandal> heyo, one more question about monster speech
02:20 < Vandal> If there is no entry for Agnes under "monspeak.txt" does that mean she doesn't have unique speech?
02:23 < Vandal> I'm finding other uniques in there
02:23 < Cryp71c> Vandal: since you're not getting a response, speaking from a programmer's point of view, that would likely be the logical inference; a lack of a speech file indicates a lack of unique speech
02:24 < Vandal> I just don't want to assume
02:24 < Vandal> :)
02:24 < Cryp71c> But yeah, my conclusion is no better than an assumption
02:24 < Cryp71c> obviously
02:24 < Vandal> This begs a new question
02:24 < Vandal> Should all uniques get unique speech?
02:24 < Vandal> I could start noting ones that don't have any lines
02:25 < Vandal> heck, I could write it myself
02:25 <+due> Agnes has monster speech.
02:25 < Vandal> Which file is she in?
02:25 <+due> monspeak.txt:1092
02:25 <+due> Most of the uniques are fully fleshed out except those that use mercenary speech.
02:26 < Vandal> oh jeeze.. I mispelled her name XD
02:26 <+due> And Agens is pretty fleshed out :)
02:26 <+due> You did.
02:26 <+due> *Agnes.
02:26 < Vandal> I think I searched for Anges
02:26 < Cryp71c> due: I have extensive experience with svn, but not git, nor have I worked on a public, open source multi-user collaboration of any sort.
02:26 < Cryp71c> Should I be using the 'Main Git' or the 'Local Git' (as denoted on the crawl.develz.org website)
02:26 <+due> Git is <3.
02:27 <+due> ??git
02:27 < Henzell> git[1/1]: git clone git://crawl-ref.git.sourceforge.net/gitroot/crawl-ref/crawl-ref
02:27 <+due> Cryp71c: You should be using --^.
02:27 <+due> Which I believe is 'Main Git'.
02:27 <+due> Napkin has a mirror of the repository on CDO.
02:27 -!- nrook [n=nrook@ip68-14-16-167.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"]
02:28 < Vandal> I see :) Agnes is a vain and greedy bitch
02:28 < Vandal> This helps
02:28 < Cryp71c> due: if you have a moment, what's the difference between git clone and git checkout? (aside from the manpages indicating that clone inherently does a checkout of the 'active branch')
02:29 < Cryp71c> I recognize this is not #git
02:29 <+due> Cryp71c: Syntax. :)
02:29 <+doy> no
02:29 <+due> Cryp71c: checkout is absolutely not what you think it is. :)
02:29 <+doy> checkout is for switching branches
02:29 <+due> Yes.
02:29 -!- MarvinPA [n=marvin@80-41-157-11.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined ##crawl-dev
02:29 <+due> And restoring individual files back to the branch HEAD, which is an annoying overlap with reset.
02:29 <+due> It took me ages to get used to the different syntax.
02:29 <+doy> well, that part does make more sense as part of checkout
02:30 <+doy> once you understand what exactly checkout and reset do
02:30 <+doy> (:
02:30 <+due> Yeah :)
02:30 < Cryp71c> I see. so clone is git's equivilent to svn checkout, and git checkout is a feature not supported (or implemented) in svn, then?
02:30 <+doy> Cryp71c: checkout is similar to svn switch
02:30 <+due> Kinda, yeah.
02:30 <+doy> sort of
02:30 < Cryp71c> and by equivilent, of course, I mean in a very lose sense.
02:30 <+due> I've never used svn switch before.
02:30 < Cryp71c> Nor have I...
02:30 <+doy> due: it's like checkout!
02:30 <+doy> (:
02:30 <+due> ...
02:30 <+due> You can actually do that in svn?
02:30 <+doy> git checkout i mean
02:30 <+due> Hm, I didn't realise.
02:30 <+doy> in a limited sense, but yeah
02:30 <+due> Yeah, I followed.
02:31 < Vandal> btw due
02:31 <+due> Cryp71c: 'git checkout' is basically used for creating and switching between branches.
02:31 < Vandal> Will there be any issues with me editing the monsters.txt descriptions file in Wordpad?
02:31 < Vandal> Like hidden characters and crap?
02:31 <+due> Yes.
02:31 <+due> Evil line endings.
02:31 <+due> How does wordpad deal with Unix line endings?
02:31 < Vandal> I don't know.. the file looks organized though
02:31 <@dpeg> Vandal: sorry, was busy with the wiki
02:32 < Vandal> no prob dpeg
02:32 <@dpeg> Vandal: Agnes get *some* speech
02:32 < Vandal> most of it was taken care of
02:32 <+due> I like Agnes' speech!
02:32 < Vandal> Yeah she has character
02:32 <+due> She will always be a snake in my head, though.
02:32 < Vandal> I have enough to go on
02:32 <+due> Curled up into a @!
02:32 <@dpeg> Cryp71c: there is a very good how-to for git & dcss, read that
02:32 < Vandal> due should I use Eclipse then or something?
02:33 <+due> Ew, no.
02:33 <+due> Install gvim or something.
02:33 <+kilobyte> well, if you want an unique for the Shoals with loads of speech, try Popeye
02:33 <+due> Polyphemus?
02:33  * kilobyte passes due some spinach.
02:33 < Vandal> due I am afraid of vi
02:33 <@dpeg> Cryp71c: if you want to code, any topics of interest?
02:33 <@dpeg> Vandal: then use emacs or kile or anything
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02:34 <@dpeg> why doesn't Henzell announce http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:rc ?
02:35 < Vandal> I don't think any of the pages I created today were announced
02:35 <@dpeg> ah
02:35 <+due> It would be Ashenzari, too.
02:35 < Cryp71c> lol, the source file structure is different than what I expected.
02:35 <@dpeg> yes
02:35 <@dpeg> Cryp71c: it is an *old* *amateur* project
02:36 <+doy> dpeg: it's something of a bug... if you edit the page before Ashenzari announces it, it won't be announced
02:36 <@dpeg> not too bad
02:36 < Vandal> oh
02:36 <@dpeg> who is coding Ashenzari, btw?
02:36 <+due> doy :)
02:36 <+doy> me-ish
02:36 <@dpeg> doy: oh!
02:36 <@dpeg> those damn nicks, I always get confused by the real names
02:36 <+doy> haven't messed with it in a while
02:36 <+doy> (:
02:36 <@dpeg> doy: will we have a div god for 0.6?
02:36 < Cryp71c> dpeg: do you guys build crawl locally to test your code, or do you just code really carefully?
02:37 <@dpeg> doy: Matt, right?
02:37 <+doy> dpeg: jesse
02:37 <@dpeg> Cryp71c: testing, of course
02:37 <@dpeg> so who is Matt then?
02:37 < Cryp71c> dpeg: lol I figured so :)
02:37 <+doy> dpeg: the only one i can think of off the top of my head is Matthew_Cline
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02:37 <@dpeg> no no
02:37 <@dpeg> Matt Ince
02:38 <+doy> no idea
02:39 <@dpeg> doy: but the div god got stuff, didn't it?
02:39 <+due> Oh, Matt is coding Ashenzari the god.
02:39 <@dpeg> or are there *two* teams working on it???
02:39 <+doy> i'm not the div god guy
02:39 <+doy> (:
02:39 <+due> doy is the bot guy :)
02:39 <@dpeg> ah!
02:39 <+due> Sorry, that was unclear.
02:39 <+doy> someone just suggested this name, and it was better than 'crawl-dev'
02:39 <@dpeg> Ashenzari is overloaded :)
02:40 <+doy> so i changed it
02:40 <+doy> (:
02:40 <+doy> oh, i see
02:40 <+doy> heh
02:40 <+doy> yeah
02:40 <+due> We should call it Cheibriados, as it takes time to post updates. ;)
02:40 < Vandal> heh
02:40 <@dpeg> so I need to ask Matt -- there is Ashenzari code, and he had really good ideas
02:42 < Cryp71c> dpeg: for specific things such as a particular mutation, how do you test that? I debugging mode hidden within crawl?
02:42 < Cryp71c> s/I/A
02:43 <+doy> yes
02:43 < Cryp71c> Hrm, I see.
02:43 <+doy> 'make wizard' builds it with wizard mode enabled
02:44 < Cryp71c> Sorry for the obvious questions, I could spend a few hours figuring them out on my own, but my free time is limited to say the least, and I'd like to contribute than spend a week getting up to speed.
02:44 < Cryp71c> s/like/rather
02:44 <+doy> and then the & key has a bunch of commands
02:44 <@dpeg> Cryp71c: make HURRY=y wizard
02:44 < Vandal> you can also "make debug"
02:44 <@dpeg> then wait a while, start and press &? 
02:44 < Vandal> it has a lot more info but possibly more than you needed
02:45 <+due> Debug is better.
02:45 <+doy> debug is annoying
02:45 <+doy> (but necessary for some things)
02:46 <+due> I prefer to build debug all the time, or otherwise you have to wait to build a debug build when you need it :)
02:46 <+doy> true enough
02:46 <+doy> (:
02:48 < Cryp71c> hrm, apparently I'm missing some stuff, had to get some lua stuff from the git repo as well
02:49 <+due> Did you do submodule init?
02:49 <+due> git submodulate update --init?
02:50 < Cryp71c> yep, did that, 'make wizard' goin right now.
02:50 <+due> Wohoo.
02:50 <+due> Do you have a multi-core system?
02:53 < Vandal> what does the submodule init do?
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02:53 <+due> Fetches the Lua/sqlite/etc repositories.
02:54 < Vandal> ... :)
03:05 < Vandal> oh man oh man
03:05 < Vandal> I completely forgot until right now
03:05 < Vandal> There is a really great Windows code editor called Notepad++
03:06 < Vandal> I looked at all of the ones you guys named, the GNU one specifically wanted me to do a tutorial before I could start editing ._.
03:09 <+doy> i used metapad once upon a time
03:09 < Twinge> <NoteTab Lite
03:09 < Eronarn> I still use metapad
03:09 <+doy> basically just "notepad, except with all of the features it's missing for no good reason"
03:10 <@dpeg> sleep
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03:10 < Twinge> Similar with NoteTab; tabs, sorting, a few other basic things... it has a bunch of advanced features too, but they don't get n the way if you don't care about 'em.
03:12 < Eifel> ihhh notepad!!! ;-)
03:13 < Vandal> "i hate hate hate" ?
03:13 < Cryp71c> due: sorry for late response. Yeah I do
03:13 < Eifel> Notepad is ok for just editing a cfg
03:16 < Eifel> Notepad++ ... is a bit more comfortable. And I think I still got it installed, but since my windows pc is for gaming purposes only... :D
03:17 <+due> Notepad2 is better than Notepad++.
03:17 <+due> In my opinion, but I use gvim on Windows.
03:17 < Vandal> I have strings on this hooded sweater 
03:17 < Vandal> to tighten the hood
03:18 <+due> :o!
03:18 < Vandal> my kittens have decided these are in fact THEIR strings
03:18  * due makes a cross with hands.
03:18 <+due> Away, hoodie, away!
03:18 < Vandal> it is a sweater!
03:18 < Vandal> and very comfy and warm
03:24 < Twinge> due: Hoods are good.  Kittens are good.  I do not understand.
03:24 < Vandal> I love my kittens <3 never a dull moment
03:26 < Eifel> vim  for bash scripting <3 
03:28 <+due> vim for anything <3
03:28 < Eifel> But as I'm a lazy guy... <3 code assist e.g. within eclipse
03:29 < Eifel> vim rules!! *g*
03:30 < Cryp71c> due: looking through the interface list for something straightforward I can get started with (or at least take a look at to get familiar with everything), any suggestions?
03:30 < Cryp71c> (BRB also)
03:30 < Eifel> But it took me some time to create my own number dependent command within vim
03:31 < Twinge> Anything related to vi for anything ever </3
03:31 <+due> Cryp71c: Not sure, at the minute, but interface certainly isn't the simplest to to changes for :)
03:32 <+due> Cryp71c: You could try fixing the Fireball self-targetting monster AI issue!
03:33 < Vandal> quick question
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03:33 < Vandal> Do you want sentences in the monster descriptions to have 2 spaces after periods or 1?
03:33 < Vandal> I've heard some mumblings about 1 space being considered "proper" these days
03:33 < bmh> 1 space, for the love of god. We aren't on typewriters...
03:33 <+due> One space.
03:33 < Vandal> ok :)
03:33 <+due> Well, what's the current standard?
03:34 < Vandal> I don't know who would define that
03:34 <+due> One space is better, because that allows curses to do proper wrapping and shit.
03:34 <+due> Two spaces can cause weird shit.
03:34 < bmh> s/\( \)*/ /g
03:35 <+due> bmh: Which would be hilarious, considering we use spaces for indentation :)
03:35 < bmh> due: ha. Good move. Hardtabs suck
03:36 <+due> Also, v. ugly.
03:36 < Cryp71c> due: so...monsters target themselves with fireball? ANy specific circumstances under which this happens?
03:36 <+due> Basically, any.
03:36 < Vandal> ok.. I changed 2 words in the old description sentence of Angels and added a new "combat hint" like dpeg was wanting
03:36 <+due> The tracer code in beam.cc isn't counting the actual caster as a friendly, I think.
03:37 < Vandal> A divine enforcer of The Shining One, it is a towering winged figure of unnatural beauty emitting an aura of brilliant white light. You can tell it is quite agile from its seemingly effortless aeriel maneuvering.
03:37 < Vandal> Is this enough for you, or would you like more than that on most descriptions?
03:37 <+due> Short and to the point is good.
03:37 <+due> However... you seem to have a lot of adjectives. :)
03:37 < Vandal> In the 2nd sentence?
03:38 < Vandal> I didn't write the first one :)
03:38 < bmh> too many words. Why are you dragging the observer into it?
03:38 < Vandal> The 2nd is a hint that it has high evasion
03:39 < Vandal> because this is what you're reading when you examine a monster closely
03:39 < Vandal> A lot of the descriptions are written from the player perspective, or would make sense to be
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03:42 < Cryp71c> due: do monsters have a specific function, or does their AI make use of the player_tracer func?
03:43 < Vandal> blorgh
03:43 < Vandal> I can't make this "Aspell" plugin work
03:43 < Vandal> It says to enter the relative path
03:43 < Vandal> D:\Aspell\bin
03:43 < Vandal> nothing
03:46 < Eifel> yeah that's an absolute path
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03:47 < Vandal> so.. I need to put Aspell inside of Notepad++ ?
03:47 < Vandal> directories I mean
03:47 < Cryp71c> Vandal: relative paths involve using '..' to go backwards 1 hop in the file tree, eg. Relative to the current file
03:47 < Eifel> You need to enter sonthing like this ../../Aspell/bin. But I'm not sure if you need two dots within win
03:47 < Vandal> oh
03:47 < Cryp71c> Eifel: you do
03:47 < Eifel> Ah ok :D
03:48 < Cryp71c> The only difference is that '/' and './' are the same thing in windows
03:48 < Cryp71c> whereas obv one is root and one is current dir
03:48 < Cryp71c> in unix
03:48 < Eifel> ./ should be used, if you want to execute a file that isn't in your path
03:49 < Eifel> on *nix
03:49 -!- purge [n=IceChat7@d192-24-82-173.try.wideopenwest.com] has joined ##crawl-dev
03:49 < Vandal> :/
03:49 <+due> Heya purge!
03:49 < purge> sup due!
03:50 < Cryp71c> Eifel: obv, since you have to explicitly refer to the executable in the CWD
03:50 < purge> anyone know any channels on freenode where you can ask beginning programming/logic questions?
03:50 < Vandal> ..\Aspell\bin doesn't work either.. 
03:50 < Cryp71c> purge: #name_of_language is your best bet
03:50 < Cryp71c> purge: #programming or ##programming might also work
03:51 < Eifel> Cryp71c: ups that happens when I read only with one eye open ;-)
03:51 < Eifel> btw which coding language?
03:51 < Cryp71c> due: any idea on my aforementioned question regarding the monster AI and tracer func?
03:51 < purge> game maker scripting :)
03:52 <+due> Cryp71c: Hm, check all the tracer-functions in beam.cc.
03:52 < Cryp71c> purge: I've never used game maker, but chances are it uses some other scripting/programming language, instead of implementing its own.
03:52 <+due> Cryp71c: They don't use player_tracer
03:52 < Cryp71c> due: k, looked for monster_tracer, wasn't there obv. I'll look around
03:52 < Eifel> Ok, never heard of game maker scripting :-O
03:53 < Vandal> The most entertaining thing I have found for my kittens so far:
03:54 < Vandal> I put a small ball with a bell inside it, inside a medium size plastic bag from the grocery store
03:54 < purge> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_Maker_Language
03:54 < Vandal> They have spent over an hour trying to get the ball out of the bag now
03:54 < Eifel> Vandal try ../Aspell/bin
03:54 < purge> very high level with lots of built in functions geared towards making games basically
03:54 < bmh> I get paid money to write code and I've never heard of such a thing.
03:55 < Vandal> Eifel it didn't take that either :[
03:55 < Vandal> Stupid thing..
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03:55 < Vandal> I guess I could always run it through a spellcheck separate from what I edit it in
03:55 < Eifel> But it would be more comfortable, if...... ;-)
03:56 < Cryp71c> due: looks like fire_tracer is what I
03:56 < Vandal> Does Notepad 2 come with a spellcheck built in? :/
03:56 < Vandal> Or Metapad?
03:56 < Cryp71c> due: I'm looking for* now to simply decipher what its doing and where best to input a fix...once I design a fix, that is.
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04:00 < Cryp71c> Can anyone shine any light on the fireball bug described earlier by due?
04:01 <+doy> Cryp71c: if we could, we'd have fixed it by now
04:01 <+doy> (:
04:01 <+doy> it's a pretty old bug
04:01 < Cryp71c> doy: lol, so due has recommended me to work on a hopelessly old bug? :P
04:02 <+doy> it's not hopelessly old(:
04:02 < Vandal> sounds like a great way to make a name for yourself!
04:02 <+doy> but... have to start somewhere!
04:02 <+doy> beam.cc would be a good place to start reading
04:03 < Cryp71c> doy: I presume, given due's description, a monster will cast fireball on the player even when the player is close enough to the player that the fireball explodes, damaging the monster?
04:03 <+doy> yes
04:03 < Vandal> I don't know if dpeg pm'd you, cryptic, but the issues I pointed out for you are what he hand picked for me to try working on because he'd like them implemented and they're relatively easy
04:03 < Cryp71c> doy: I'm already in beam, and already found fire_tracer, which seems to be the function used for monster ai and tracing stuff.
04:03 <+doy> yes
04:04 < Cryp71c> just trying to discern what each little piece of fire_tracer does, otherwise any 'fix' I write could (and might likely) affect something else.
04:04 < Cryp71c> Especially considering the logic is rather short.
04:04 <+doy> yeah, reading code first is a good thing
04:04 < Cryp71c> doy: any idea where I can find info on the bolt data type / struct?
04:04 < Eifel> A general question: What would you prefer c++, java or ... for developing a ServerClient application ?
04:04 < Cryp71c> Obv its not in beam
04:05 <+doy> Cryp71c: this is where grep, ctags, and things like that come in handy
04:05 <+doy> Eifel: i'm a fan of perl
04:05 <+doy> but the question is pretty vague
04:05 < Cryp71c> doy: bah I do my main dev in aptana, I havn't ever been good with grep and piping in other search stuff
04:06 < Cryp71c> guess I gotta learn...
04:06 <+doy> Cryp71c: i just meant some kind of searching
04:06 <+doy> as in "you have the source in front of you, you can search for the bolt data structure"
04:07 < Vandal> Ok
04:07 < Vandal> I'm pretty sure I really did find a unique monster with no entry in monspeak.txt
04:08 < Vandal> Antaeus?
04:08 < Eifel> doy: the main goal is to wrap the crawl "online" gaming. Implementing a server coding the visual information, and a client which can decide how to display that information (tiles or just chars)
04:08 < Cryp71c> doy: well yeah asking was easier than grepping 40 files
04:08 < Vandal> Did a search on both monsters.txt and monspeak.txt at the same time
04:08 < Vandal> Only monsters.txt has an entry for him
04:08 < Vandal> I even checked the tile to make sure he was unique and I was spelling it right
04:09 <+doy> Cryp71c: really?
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04:11 < Vandal> Is Antaeus the lord of Cocytus?
04:11 <+doy> yes
04:12 < Vandal> Ok this is starting to make more sense, since no other monster in the game has "Cocytus" in their description
04:12 < Vandal> And Cocytus is a Hell?
04:12 < Mu_> jep
04:12 < Vandal> So his demonic flag isn't just for show
04:13 < Vandal> I know Crawl isn't supposed to empasize story, but is there some kind of backstory to the Hells inside the dungeon?
04:14 < Vandal> Or I guess the portals to the Hells inside the dungeon
04:14 < Xiberia> zot wants additional areas where unsuspecting players are likely to die
04:21 < Vandal> Cerebov is the big daddy of Hell lords?  I don't see him getting any lines in monspeak.txt either
04:22 <+doy> cerebov is a pan lord
04:23 < Vandal> Oh
04:23 < Vandal> He isn't in shout.txt or monspeak.txt
04:24 < Vandal> Do you remember offhand if he says anything?
04:25 < ogaz> he uses imp speech
04:25 < ogaz> it's underwhelming
04:25 < Vandal> I just spawned him and he isn't saying anything at all
04:26 < Vandal> ah, there he goes
04:26 < Vandal> Beg for mercy, thou grime-gilt dread-bolted strumpet!
04:27 < Vandal> So is it safe to assume Antaeus also has no unique speech?
04:29 < Vandal> He isn't saying anything when I summoned him
04:30 < Vandal> I'll start noting these I guess
04:37 < Vandal> Also, whoever added monsters to my Tiles wiki page, I decided to move that to a Monsters page and start including the other stuff I'm seeing like missing unique speech on important monsters
04:37 < Ashenzari> Vandal created page General Monster Observations at http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:feedback:monster:general_monster_observations
04:39 <+due> Vandal: In a debug build, you can use x, mouse over a monster, press s, then t, and type in a number
04:39 <+due> Vandal: and it will "Talk" that many times.
04:39 <+due> v. v. useful
04:39 < Vandal> oh good
04:40 < Vandal> due, I can write some speech for Antaeus and Cerebov, but it would probably be better if someone who has actually fought them did
04:50 < Vandal> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antaeus
04:50 < Vandal> nice pic
04:53 < Vandal> Skulls for the Poseidon Throne?
04:54 <+sorear> Vandal: Antaeus is classically a unique titan, and originally was classified as a giant in Crawl.  Unfortunately, players being players discovered that they could whittle down his HP by abusing the torment abilities of his ice fiend escorts, so he got the demon flag slapped on as a rules patch
04:55 < Cryp71c> Anyone know off hand a creature which is regularly succetible to the fireball bug?
04:55 < Vandal> So
04:56 < Vandal> I could ignore that he is a demon in the description, or I could work it into why he is a lord of hell
04:56 < Vandal> or make it a result of becoming a lord of hell
05:04 <+sorear> maybe he just has acquired torment immunity after chillin' with the fiends for so long
05:04 < Eronarn> there's no reason he can't be both a demon and a giant
05:05 <+sorear> Cryp71c: deep elf sorcerers
05:05 <+sorear> the fireball "bug" is ancient, but it hasn't always been a bug
05:05 < ogaz> I've had fire giants kill themselves with fireballs
05:06 <+sorear> classically in Crawl monsters are supposed to suicide attack
05:06 <+sorear> around 0.4 there was a major overhaul of the tracer code (which I was personally involved in)
05:07 < Cryp71c> sorear: is there an easy location to get a list of all possible BEAMs and a brief description of them?
05:07 <+sorear> we added the friendly fire prevention code for players then, and to avoid fireball accidents we extended the tracer to explosions
05:07 <+sorear> Cryp71c: check_your_resists
05:07 <+sorear> that's a reasonably concise list of all damaging BEAM_ types
05:08 <+sorear> since the BEAM_ enum is also used for elemental damage
05:08 <+sorear> when this went in, monsters stopped fireballing each other and in melee range
05:08 <+sorear> unfortunately, this seriously nerfed fire giants
05:08 <+sorear> and they were getting way too easy
05:09 <+sorear> so we changed it again, and made monsters accept suicide or collateral damage if it meant hurting you
05:09 <+sorear> depending on level checks
05:09 <+sorear> I'm not sure at this point whether Dowan using point blank fireballs is intended behavior
05:10 <+sorear> well, due doesn't intend it, I mean intended by the last person to overhaul beams
05:10 <+sorear> Haran or David
05:13 <+doy> monsters should be okay with fireballing themselves if they're fire resistant
05:13 <+doy> they shouldn't suicide themselves though
05:14 <+doy> so fire giants should be able to fireball from melee range, but deep elf sorcerers shouldn't hellfire from melee range
05:14 <+sorear> well, resistant comes in more than one level
05:14 <+doy> @??fire giant
05:14 < Gretell> fire giant (C) | Speed: 10 | HD: 16 | Health: 48-144 | AC/EV: 8/4 | Damage: 30 | Flags: sense invisible | Res: magic(85), fire++ | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 2052 | Sp: b.fire, fireball.
05:15 <+sorear> fire giants: not quite fireproof
05:15 <+doy> fire++ is probably reasonable
05:15 <+doy> it's close enough anyway
05:15 <+doy> how much is fire+ for monsters?
05:16 <+sorear> 50%
05:16 <+doy> eh, could go either way
05:17 <+doy> fire+ or fire++
05:18 <+doy> we could also make it dependent on how many other options the monster has, but i think any monster that fireballs you has other options available
05:18 <+doy> so that might not be too helpful
05:18 <+sorear> Cerebov definitely suicides with f.storm in fightclub
05:19 <+sorear> especially if there are other big targets around
05:20 < Cryp71c> Is there an easy way to get certain values out (eg, get the foeRatio and foe_info.count of a beam during mons_should_fire()) ?
05:20 <+doy> @??cerebov
05:20 < Gretell> Cerebov (&) | Speed: 10 | HD: 21 | Health: 650 | AC/EV: 30/8 | Damage: 60 | Flags: demonic, see invisible | Res: magic(168), hellfire+++, poison | XP: 15000 | Sp: fire storm, iron shot, haste, greater demon.
05:20 <+doy> Cryp71c: mprf() is a printf-style function that writes to the message area
05:21 <+doy> sorear: firestorm is what, 65% non-elemental?
05:22 <+doy> maybe cerebov needs lava resistance(:
05:22 <+doy> it would be pretty lame for him to not cast fire storm if you were too close, given the range of the firestorm explosion
05:22 <+doy> but it's also pretty lame that he suicides by doing so
05:23 < ogaz> maybe have him not cast firestorm if it might hit him and he's at <10% hp?
05:24 <+sorear> that's what I'd do, personally
05:24 <+doy> i guess that could work
05:25 <+doy> instead of just a check against resistances, check whether the damage from the spell could do more than 50% of their current hp or something like that
05:26 < Cryp71c> doy: are you guys discussing stuff to change that's separate (but related) to what I'm doing, or more work for me to do since I"ll be in the middle of that code?
05:27 <+doy> Cryp71c: trying to figure out how that code should actually work
05:27 < Cryp71c> hrm, can you not set your char level using the wizard?
05:27 < Vandal> you can
05:27 < Vandal> and your skill levels
05:28 < Vandal> & ?
05:28 < Vandal> Ctrl-L is change experience level
05:28 < Cryp71c> That's what I'm using, except as soon as I go to hit a number, I crash out to shell
05:29 < Vandal> goodness..
05:29 <+sorear> wizard mode should never crash to shell
05:30 <+sorear> it's OK if it occasionally causes internal errors
05:30 < Cryp71c> sorear: I can't spawn creatures by name either
05:30 <+sorear> but if &x ever replies Segmentation fault (core dumped), BR
05:30 < Cryp71c> as soon as I go to hit a letter
05:30 < Cryp71c> I crash out
05:30 < Vandal> cryptic that is weird.. I'm running a debug version that I compiled earlier today and they work for me
05:30 < Vandal> I got it off git the same way you did
05:30 <+doy> Cryp71c: what happens when you crash out?
05:31 <+sorear> (or "This program has performed an illegal operation and needs to be shut down.", or whatever your OS of choice generates for #GP(0) / #PF)
05:31 < Cryp71c> Writing crash info to morgue/crash-frogger-20100107-233028.txt
05:31 < Cryp71c> Aborted
05:31 <+doy> Cryp71c: could you nopaste the contents of that file somewhere?
05:34 < Cryp71c> doy: christ...vim isn't compiled with x-support...can't copy out of it into browser.
05:34 < Cryp71c> 1 minute
05:35 < Cryp71c> doy: the very first line says 'ASSERT(y <= crawl_view.mlistsz.y) in 'libutil.cc' at line 698 failed'
05:35 < Cryp71c> IDK if thats useful for the immediate moment while I try and get this into another editor
05:37 <+doy> Cryp71c: what terminal size are you using?
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05:38 < Cryp71c> doy: hrm, idk...its full screen, though I'm using dwm...which doesn't treat things as normally as one might hope...
05:38 < Cryp71c> Screw it! I'm doing this on my windows box.
05:39 <+doy> looks like that could potentially happen if your terminal isn't tall enough, but...
05:39 < Cryp71c> doy: well...who knows, dwm might not be reporting terminal size
05:39 <+doy> full screen is bigger than 24 lines, i assume?
05:39 < Cryp71c> BRB
05:39 < Cryp71c> yeah
05:39 <+doy> Cryp71c: dwm should have nothing to do with it
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05:40 < Cryp71c> ??git
05:40 < Henzell> git[1/1]: git clone git://crawl-ref.git.sourceforge.net/gitroot/crawl-ref/crawl-ref
05:41 < Cryp71c> alrighty I'm back (obviously)
05:43 < Cryp71c> Vandal, are you on a windows system or unix?
05:43 < Vandal> Vista
05:44 < Cryp71c> Vandal, how did you go about compiling the source code from the git?
05:44 < Vandal> I followed the instructions in the INSTALL.TXT file
05:44 < Cryp71c> ah, ok. :P
05:46 < Vandal> http://crawl-ref.git.sourceforge.net/git/gitweb.cgi?p=crawl-ref/crawl-ref;a=tree;f=crawl-ref;h=d8bdd7d63545d7d09be2448e1c1555aebb34cf25;hb=master
05:46 < Vandal> this one
05:46 < Vandal> took me a minute to find it
05:47 < Vandal> make sure you get the webinstall of msysgit
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05:48 < Vandal> make sure you get the webinstall of msysgit
05:48 < Vandal> I didn't at first and it didn't work right, files were not in the same folders, etc..
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05:49 <+sorear> So now Crawl works better on Windows than Unix??
05:49 < Cryp71c> sorear, lol no, but it doesn't like my netbook and my hacky configuration of it...apparently.
05:49 < Vandal> sorear: I just cbf to get linux working right now.. maybe when I can spend $15 on a new pci wireless nic
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05:51 <+sorear> Vandal: that has nothing to do with Crawl, though, that's just idiotic USB wireless vendors (incidentally the PCI ones aren't any better)
05:51 <+greensnark> Can we not discuss Vandal's wireless again? Thanks
05:52 <+sorear> yes, please
05:52 <+doy> but linux sucks!
05:52 <+doy> we have to get that point across
05:52 <+doy> every few hours
05:52 < CIA-81> greensnark * rf792fc9364f8 /crawl-ref/source/dat/shoals.des: Remove floor surrounded by deep water in Ilsuiw's hut.
05:53 < Eifel> yeah! Allways the same ;-)
05:53 <+sorear> Cryp71c: window manager shouldn't change anything here, unless you're running tiles
05:54 < Eifel> tbh C64 rules!!!!
05:54 < Cryp71c> sorear, yeah it had a tiled layout, although it was the only tile operating on that particular screen.
05:54 <+sorear> Cryp71c: I mean, TileCrawl
05:54 <+sorear> if you're running crawl under xterm/equivalent, dwm should have no effect
05:55 < Cryp71c> sorear, aye, uxterm.
05:55 <+sorear> if you're running native X11 crawl under dwm... I'm not suprised it crashes
05:55 <+sorear> (it *shouldn't*, but dwm-like window managers are rare enough that a lot of programs are buggy with them)
05:56 < Cryp71c> yeah, it'll be less of a headache on my work system, which is uses XCFE
05:57 < Cryp71c> BTW with how the git repo is setup for trunk, if I wanted to easily move my code to the server so I could leave work, go home, and update my local copy to the head revision, can I do that without anything special needing to be done?
05:58 <+doy> which server?
05:58 < Cryp71c> doy, anywhere, shouldn't have said 'server'
05:58 < Cryp71c> the git repo
05:59 <+doy> yeah, that is what git is designed for
05:59 <+doy> you don't have commit access to the sourceforge repository, but you can set up your own anywhere you want
05:59 < Cryp71c> Well normally (for Svn) you need an accnt to commit, unless the repo is setup for guest or anon commits
06:00 < Cryp71c> doy, I don't have anywhere to setup a git repo -_-
06:00 <+doy> github.com
06:02 < Cryp71c> and - out of curiosity - what's the procedure to get fixes approved into trunk?
06:03 <+sorear> ask one of us on IRC or crawl-ref-discuss
06:03 <+sorear> we'll review it
06:03 < Cryp71c> oh ok, I didn't know how many people here had commit permissions to the sourceforge or CDO repos
06:03 <+sorear> Cryp71c: see the topic, everyone with commit bits is autovoiced in here
06:04 <+sorear> if there's a + before someone's name, they can commit
06:04 <+sorear> the point of this is to make identifying potential reviewers easy
06:04 <+sorear> (not all of us are sufficiently familiar with a given subsystem to review, of course)
06:04 <+sorear> (and don't ask dpeg to do code review ever)
06:06 < Cryp71c> Vandal, did you do a TILES=y on your build on vista?
06:06 < Cryp71c> lol, why not sorear ?
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06:08 <+sorear> dpeg's role is Balance Guru; he does not role with *any* subsystem
06:08 < Cryp71c> ahhhh gotcha
06:08 <+sorear> he's been caught coding, but nobody who has seen dpeg's code wants to see more of it in Crawl
06:09 < Cryp71c> hehe
06:09 < Cryp71c> well hopefully if I ever make it around to providing any useful code, mine won't yield a similar opinion
06:20 < Vandal> cryptic, yes I did
06:20 < Cryp71c> Would there be an outcry of death if I wrote a few notes to myself on the Mantis report of the fireball bug (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=66) so I can quickly jump back into it when Im at a different system tomorrow?
06:20 < Vandal> I need the tiles for writing descriptions
06:21 < Cryp71c> sorear, tagging you to the above question, wife and I are heading to bed, didn't know if you were looking at the screen at the present moment.
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06:23 <+sorear> Cryp71c: notes to $FIXER on mantis are important.  You nev-
06:23 <+sorear> bah
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06:35 < Vandal> this game is pushing pretty hard for me to become a Necromancer
06:36 < Vandal> Found the Book of Necromancy, now the Catalogue of Evil Magic, and I'm only on D6
06:37 < Vandal> Good thing Necromancy is 150 apt on Ha, or those could actually be really useful
06:40 <+sorear> aptitudes are for wimps
06:40 <+greensnark> ##crawl <--- that way
06:40 < Vandal> oh, woops
06:40 <+sorear> I thought this was ##crawl
06:42 < Vandal> lol. suicide fireball Dowan killed me.  How did I know that would happen the moment due said he was giving him Fireball
06:43 < Vandal> That is a bad decision and needs to go
06:44 < Vandal> I had 41 hp total, hasted caster with Fireballs at D6 is way too strong
06:44 < CIA-81> greensnark * r2aef97c76417 /crawl-ref/source/terrain.cc: Fix order of trees and open sea in feature names.
06:47 < Vandal> !tell due hasted suicidal caster with Fireballs at D6 is way too strong.  I mean really :/
06:47 < Henzell> Vandal: OK, I'll let due know.
06:47 < Vandal> g'night
06:47 <+sorear> @?? dowan
06:47 < Gretell> Dowan (e) | Speed: 10 | HD: 3 | Health: 25 | AC/EV: 0/13 | Damage: 5 | Flags: spellcaster | Res: magic(24) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 46 | Sp: throw frost, corona, blink, throw flame, haste other, minor healing.
06:47 < Vandal> he gets haste and fireball after Duvessa dies now
06:48 < Vandal> I don't see why just Haste wasn't enough
06:48 <+sorear> 41 damage fireball from Dowan ought to be impossible
06:48 <+sorear> HD3 fireballs are only 3d10
06:48 < Vandal> I didn't say he can one shot me, I said that is ridiculous
06:48 < Vandal> I'm already hurt from killing Duvessa
06:48 <+sorear> (you know, I should really add spell damage info to @??)
06:49 < Vandal> I don't know which is worse to kill first now :/
06:49 < Vandal> At least Duvessa stops being dangerous after her Berserk wears off
06:49 <+greensnark> Enslave one, sic it on the other, then run away and wait for the survivor to cool down :P
06:50 < Vandal> Some asshole on D6 throwing Fireballs around is always going to be dangerous
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07:29 <+due> Helloo.
07:29 < Henzell> due: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
07:29 <+due> ??fireball
07:29 < Henzell> fireball[1/1]: Cannot be evaded. Makes noise.
07:29 <+due> sorear: What is the spell damage on HD3?
07:29 <+due> I didn't think it was that high.
07:30 <+due> Vandal: Come up with a good replacement spell, then.
07:30 <+due> Or I could remove the haste.
07:32 <+doy> 23:48 <+sorear> HD3 fireballs are only 3d10
07:32 <+due> Ah.
07:32 <+due> Hm.
07:33 <+due> Which is max of 30 damage.
07:33 <+due> !lg Vandal x=dam
07:33 < Henzell> 142. [dam=18] Vandal the Slinger (L8 HaHu), worshipper of Okawaru, blasted by Dowan (fireball) on D:6 on 2010-01-08, with 1070 points after 5090 turns and 0:37:37.
07:33 <+due> I suppose that's a bit much at early levels, but it was suc ha cool idea. :/
07:33 <+due> Also, you should be able to survive fireballs at XL8.
07:34 < ogaz> due: maybe stone arrow or throw icicle?
07:34 <+due> Hm.
07:34 <+due> I didn't want to use bolt of cold.
07:34 <+due> Throw icicle works.
07:34 <+due> ??bolt of magma
07:34 < Henzell> bolt of magma[1/1]: 35% resistible conjuration, generally considered underpowered. Multi-target, but shorter range than bolt of fire or cold.
07:35 <+due> It's XL5.
07:35 <+due> Sticky flame, maybe?
07:37 < ogaz> sticky flame doesn't seem to fit to me with what's going on; he's grief-stricken, so instead of blasting as hard as he can he's going to make the enemy slowly burn to death?
07:37 <+due> Trrue.
07:37 <+due> Hence why fireball is such a good thematic choice.
07:38 < ogaz> that's actually part of why my mind jumped to stone arrow; he's probably too angry to really aim well. Sadly, it's probably a little too weak
07:38 <+due> We'll give it a go.
07:39 <+due> Alternately, we could keep fireball and nerf his HD.
07:41 < ogaz> that also weakens the rest of his spells, and fireball would basically be smite in that case(don't know if this is a good, bad or irrelevant thing)
07:43 < Mu_> dragon form imo
07:46 < st__> he should also turn invisible, he is a coward after all
07:48 < Napkin> Moin guys
08:01 <+greensnark> Afternoon due
08:01 <+greensnark> Napking!
08:02 < Napkin> greensnarking! :)
08:02  * greensnark is putting in turtles :P
08:03 < Napkin> war-turtles?
08:03 < Napkin> berserking & firebreathing turtles? ;>
08:03 <+greensnark> No, just snapping turtles :/
08:03 < Napkin> \o/
08:03 <+greensnark> Alligators too :P
08:04 < Napkin> noooo!
08:04 <+greensnark> Well, crocodiles :P
08:04 <+greensnark> If you don't like alligators, you'll love crocodiles
08:04 <+greensnark> They're totally different
08:04 <+greensnark> :P
08:04 < Napkin> hehe
08:04 < Napkin> wouldn't they fit nicely in swamp?
08:04 <+greensnark> I think I can finally get rid of taurs
08:04 < Napkin> alligators, i mean
08:04 <+greensnark> Yeah, they might be better for the Swamp
08:05 < Napkin> add both? crocodiles for shoals, alligators for swamp
08:05 <+greensnark> dpeg is already going to hang me for turtles :P
08:06 < Napkin> make them useful?
08:06 < Napkin> as in.. players can surf on them :D
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08:10 <+due> greensnark: Have you seen the whole cartoon controversy thing? I will admit that I laughed.
08:12 <+due> Also, wrong channel.
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08:21 <+greensnark> monsters.txt still refers to grey snakes :P
08:22 <+due> Heh.
08:23 <+due> Yeah, I've noticed that the people doing the renames sometimes forget to check the right spots.
08:25 <+greensnark> sea snakes for ssshoals
08:25 <+greensnark> the unholy trinity: snapping turtles, alligator snapping turtles, sea snakes
08:26 <+greensnark> the losers: taurs
08:26 <+due> awesome.
08:27 <+greensnark> Apparently the snapping turtles are freshwater turtles, but the Crawl variety will be different :P
08:28 <+greensnark> Does anything use 't' these days? :P
08:28 <+due> Nope.
08:28 <+due> Minotaurs got merged into H.
08:33  * due out.
08:36 < Napkin> btw, greensnark?
08:36 <+greensnark> Yes?
08:37 < Napkin> Eifeltrampel is writing up a concept and example programs to have a third display in crawl (beside tiles/ascii) to transfer the objects to a client
08:38 < Napkin> How about I'll forward you his emails? Time to have a look at the idea?
08:38 < Napkin> *to you
08:39 <+sorear> basically, he's doing nhext?
08:39 < Napkin> i have no idea what nhext is
08:39 < Napkin> gotta run now, see you later
08:51 < CIA-81> greensnark * r6d0eb3000187 /crawl-ref/source/ (9 files in 2 dirs): Add snapping turtles, alligator snapping turtles and sea snakes to the Shoals, remove yaktaurs, centaurs and stone giants.
08:51 <+sorear> NOOOOO
08:52 <+Zaba_> yay, turtles!
08:55 <+sorear> greensnark: Can we keep the centaurs at greatly reduced weight?  They're 100% Greek
08:57 < Twinge> TURTLES!
08:58 < Twinge> The commit should've had a link to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMNry4PE93Y
09:00 <+due> TURTLES
09:00 <+due> sorear: I'm fine for single centaurs in shoals.
09:00 <+due> greensnark, sorear, what do you say to single centaurs? We can tweak the band code.
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09:13 <+due> greensnark: Did you have to pick red for the turtles?
09:14 <+due> Why not green?
09:14 <+greensnark> No particular reason
09:15 <+due> Do you mind if  we switch to green?
09:15 <+greensnark> Why not
09:15 <+due> red t still = minotaur in my head. :)
09:15 <+due> Done!
09:15 <+greensnark> Cool
09:15 <+greensnark> We want single centaurs?
09:15 <+due> Yes.
09:16 <+due> I'll do it <3
09:16 <+greensnark> Cool!
09:16 <+greensnark> Now I can say the new shoals population is a collaboration with due <3
09:16 <+greensnark> Which will spike dpeg's anti-turtle guns to an extent :P
09:17 <+due> Spiked turtles.
09:18 <+Zaba_> greensnark, I think that monster descriptions should be all on single line.
09:18 <+due> I made them quite rare, too.
09:18 <+Zaba_> well er, not all, but a description shouldn't have line breaks in it
09:18 <+greensnark> Oh, yeah, keep forgetting
09:18 <+greensnark> That code should really rewrap paragraphs :P
09:19 <+Zaba_> why doesn't dpeg like turtles?
09:20 <+due> Polyphemus and the death yaks!
09:20 <+due> wow, 20 is very rare indeed.
09:20 <+due> Two centaurs on Shoals:$.
09:20 <+due> I think that's cool.
09:21 <+greensnark> Could add centaur magi :P
09:21 <+greensnark> Or some other nonbase centaur
09:21 <+due> ... Oh man, that would be awesome.
09:22 <+due> centaur prophet!
09:22 < CIA-81> greensnark * r2bacb2008a26 /crawl-ref/source/mon-util.cc: Allow snapping turtle zombies to retain their reaching bites.
09:22 < CIA-81> greensnark * r8f04c0d401f1 /crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/monsters.txt: Unwrap monster descriptions (Zaba).
09:22 <+greensnark> It does mean snapping turtle simulacra won't get freezing bites though :P
09:22 <+due> greensnark: Does increasing the weight of MI_STONE increase the damage output at all?
09:22 <+due> Er.
09:22 <+greensnark> No wait, they will, just won't get reaching
09:23 <+due> That was supposed to be a general question.
09:23 <+greensnark> I don't think damage is based on wait, unless that has changed
09:23 <+greensnark> I haven't looked at ranged combat code in forever
09:23 <+due> Nessos should be common in Shoals as wlel.
09:23 <+sorear> due: it will have no effect for slinging
09:24 <+greensnark> Dear lord, I wrote "wait" for "weight"
09:24 <+sorear> it *might* have an effect when they're thrown, but that code is going to be thrown out soon so it doesn't matter
09:24 <+due> sorear: Excellent.
09:24  * greensnark is too distracted
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09:25 <+due> hey rob!
09:25 <+by> hello
09:25 <+due> Argh, where are the hp modifiers?
09:25 <+sorear> What HP modifiers
09:25 <+due> For races.
09:25 <+sorear> level_change in player.cc
09:25 <+due> Thanks.
09:26 <+due> I was looking in  skills with aptitudes.
09:26 <+greensnark> due: Push turtle colour changes?
09:26 <+due> greensnark: Okay
09:26  * greensnark wants to rebuild @??
09:26 <+due> Let me rebase
09:27 < CIA-81> due * r05f50c3e652c /crawl-ref/source/dat/vaults.des: Tweak a vault (Mu).
09:27 < CIA-81> due * r10cf7d676b89 /crawl-ref/source/mon-stuff.cc: Give Dowan Throw Icicle/Stone Arrow instead.
09:27 < CIA-81> due * r6b1312b42f80 /crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: Make turtles green! (Greensnark)
09:27 < CIA-81> due * rb49f10b29412 /crawl-ref/source/ (mon-pick.cc mon-place.cc): And let single centaurs spawn in Shoals. (Greensnark, sorear)
09:27 < CIA-81> due * reae626d8980c /crawl-ref/source/itemprop.cc: Increase weight of stones (dpeg).
09:27 <+greensnark> Wow
09:27 <+greensnark> That's a lot :)
09:27 <+due> :)
09:27 < Mu_> ty
09:27 <+due> Yeah, been saving up.
09:27 <+due> Oooh.
09:27 <+due> centaur astrologer!
09:28 <+greensnark> :P
09:28 <+due> Yesss.
09:28 <+Zaba_> heh
09:28 <+due> Let's do that, greensnark?
09:28  * greensnark detests astrologers :P
09:28 <+due> I'm not sure what sort of spells fits in with that, thematically.
09:28 -!- Zaba_ is now known as Zaba
09:28 <+greensnark> Centaur astronomer
09:28 <+due> Okay.
09:28 <+greensnark> With a throw radio telescope spell :P
09:28 <+due> They should be blue.
09:28 <+due> HAHAHA.
09:28 <+due> "Invoke VLA"?
09:29 <+greensnark> "You are hit by the Hubble Space Telescope"
09:29 <+due> "The International Space Station shoots a death ray at you".
09:29 <+greensnark> "Summon Black Hole"
09:29 <+greensnark> "Asteroid Belt"
09:30 <+greensnark> The possibilities are endless!
09:30 <+due> Asteroid is a ncie idea for a psell.
09:30 <+due> But I'm not sure dpeg will like the science aspect.
09:30 <+Zaba> summon blackhole sounds like the most suicidal spell
09:30 <+due> And "centaur star-gazer" is probably better in that regard.
09:30 <+greensnark> Yeah, I'm just being funny :P
09:30 <+greensnark> Or trying to be
09:30 <+greensnark> Centaur asskicker?
09:31 <+greensnark> Centaur Alchemist!
09:31 <+greensnark> Tm type
09:31 <+due> I like prophet.
09:31 <+due> Oh, you have to give them evaporate as a monster spell, then.
09:31 <+sorear> due: classically speaking, star-gazing is purely divinitive, useless in combat
09:31 <+greensnark> What would the prophet do? :)
09:31 <+due> I don't know.
09:31 <+due> sorear: Yeah.
09:31 <+Zaba> there should be merfolk prophets
09:31 <+sorear> greensnark: if you fail an XL save, you get converted a' la Beogh and have to follow it around
09:32 <+due> centaur healer? Could have a quarterstaff and heal himself.
09:32 <+greensnark> Chiron?
09:32 <+due> We've NEssos, though.
09:32 <+sorear> due: no, it should be able to invoke a battle frenzy at will and have all randart gear, with Haste as an emergency spell
09:32 <+sorear> re. CeHe
09:33 <+Zaba> it should have haste as an attack spell.
09:33 <+due> I don't get the reference, I think?
09:33 <+sorear> !lg stabwound char=CeHe ktyp=winning end<2008-01-01 s=god
09:33 < Henzell> 6 games for stabwound (char=CeHe ktyp=winning end<2008-01-01): 5x Okawaru, 1x Elyvilon
09:33 <+due> Oh.
09:33 <+due> Hehehe.
09:34 <+sorear> If you go far enough back, Okawaru had the minor healing invocation which was later moved to Ely
09:34 <+sorear> In addition to everything he has now
09:34 <+due> ...
09:34 <+due> That boggles the mind.
09:34 <+due> I can't believe that Okawaru was ever more broken than he is now.
09:36 <+sorear> If you go REALLY far back, Okawaru was a red & in Pandemonium guarding the firey rune
09:36 <+Zaba> heh.
09:36 <+due> Heh.
09:36 <+Zaba> sounds a little odd
09:37 <+due> 10, 54
09:37 <+due> Zaba: Half the gods wer ethe old Pandemonium lord set.
09:37 <+due> Who decided to make them gods?
09:37 <+Zaba> and who made up the new lords?
09:37 <+Zaba> and why..
09:37 -!- Twinge- [n=user@97-124-175-115.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
09:37 <+sorear> with his buddies Sif Muna (magical), Nemelex Xobeh (glowing), and Kikubaaqudgha (dark)
09:37 <+due> 10, 46.
09:38 <+due> sorear: Linley, Brent or SS far back?
09:38 <+sorear> Linley.
09:38 <+sorear> This was in 2.x
09:38 <+sorear> To cut it roughly,
09:39 <+sorear> 1.x - Linley
09:39 <+sorear> 2.x - Linley + community
09:39 <+sorear> 3.x - Original DevTeam
09:39 <+sorear> 4.x - Brent
09:40 <+due> And then SS by 0.1?
09:40 <+sorear> yes
09:40 <+due> Awesome.
09:41 <+sorear> SS wasn't always the same people, either, of course
09:41 <+due> Also, does ammo item_def use plus2 for anything?
09:41 <+due> Oh, of course.
09:41 <+sorear> no
09:41 <+sorear> no due before 0.6 :D
09:41 -!- Twinge [n=user@97-124-159-6.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
09:41 <+due> No sorear before 0.!
09:41 <+due> Er. 0.6.
09:41 <+due> Well, I suppose you were involved in other things?
09:41 <+sorear> yes
09:41 <+sorear> I had a LOT of input in 0.4
09:42 <+due> Now you have a lot of code output in 0.6!
09:42 <+sorear> every race with every class - me
09:42 <+due> Yes, that's really good.
09:42 <+sorear> the ally attack prompts, with a suggested implementation
09:43 <+sorear> ... well I thought I had more than two major things
09:43 <+due> Hehehe.
09:45 < Twinge-> Minor things are often more awesome anyway though
09:46 <+due> Agree
09:46 <+due> Hi, Twinge-!
09:47 < Napkin> lol @ collaboration!
09:47 <+doy> @??merfolk aquamancer
09:47 < Gretell> merfolk aquamancer (m) | Speed: 10 | HD: 15 | Health: 45-90 | AC/EV: 0/12 | Damage: 15 | Flags: amphibious, spellcaster | Res: magic(80) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 1244 | Sp: primal wave, b.cold, throw icicle, blink.
09:47 < Twinge-> Hail.
09:47 -!- Twinge- is now known as Twinge
09:47 <+due> @??snapping turtle
09:47 < Gretell> unknown monster: "snapping turtle"
09:47 <+doy> ^^ these guys should get a steam spell
09:47 <+due> greeeeensnark!
09:47 <+due> doy: Agree.
09:48 <+doy> probably replace bolt of cold with it
09:51 <+doy> mind if i do that now?
09:51 <+doy> before i forget?
09:51 <+doy> (:
09:52 <+greensnark> @??snapping turtle
09:52 < Gretell> snapping turtle (t) | Speed: 9 (act: 80%) | HD: 10 | Health: 30-90 | AC/EV: 16/5 | Damage: 30 | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: magic(40) | XP: 152.
09:52 <+Zaba> ASSERT(y <= crawl_view.hudsz.y) in 'libutil.cc' at line 703 failed.
09:52 <+greensnark> doy: Go for it
09:52 <+Zaba> (gdb) print crawl_view.hudsz.y
09:52 <+Zaba> $1 = 12
09:52 <+Zaba> #4  0x0000000000836172 in cgotoxy (x=42, y=81, region=GOTO_STAT) at libutil.cc:703
09:53 < Twinge> Is 16 AC really high?
09:53 < Twinge> @??giant snail
09:53 < Gretell> giant snail (j) | Speed: 4 | HD: 14 | Health: 70-112 | AC/EV: 7/2 | Damage: 18 | Flags: amphibious | Res: magic(56) | Chunks: poisonous | XP: 338.
09:53 < Twinge> @??boulder beetle
09:53 < Gretell> boulder beetle (B) | Speed: 3 | HD: 9 | Health: 27-72 | AC/EV: 20/2 | Damage: 45 | Res: magic(36) | Vul: poison | Chunks: poisonous | XP: 94.
09:53 <+doy> @??curse skull
09:53 < Gretell> curse skull (z) | Speed: 10 | HD: 13 | Health: 66 | AC/EV: 40/3 | Flags: undead, evil, see invisible, lev | Res: magic(immune), hellfire, cold++, elec++, poison | XP: 3758 | Sp: summon undead, torment symbol.
09:53 <+due> Twinge: Fairly.
09:53 < CIA-81> doy * rba666a038dd1 /crawl-ref/source/mon-spll.h: give aquamancers steam ball instead of bolt of cold
09:53 <+greensnark> Of course, now I have to build again :P
09:53 <+doy> (:
09:54 <+greensnark> @??snapping turtle
09:54 < Gretell> snapping turtle (t) | Speed: 9 (act: 80%) | HD: 10 | Health: 30-90 | AC/EV: 16/5 | Damage: 30 | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: magic(40) | XP: 152.
09:54 <+greensnark> Er
09:54 <+greensnark> @??merfolk aquamancer
09:54 < Gretell> merfolk aquamancer (m) | Speed: 10 | HD: 15 | Health: 45-90 | AC/EV: 0/12 | Damage: 15 | Flags: amphibious, spellcaster | Res: magic(80) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 1244 | Sp: primal wave, steam ball, throw icicle, blink.
09:54 <+doy> much better
09:54 <+due> Okay
09:54 <+due> "illusion of <XYZ>"
09:54 <+due> or "<XYZ>'s illusion"
09:55 <+due> Or better yet, "illusory <XYZ>"
09:55 <+doy> xyz's illusion
09:55 <+due> Really?
09:55 <+due> Hm.
09:55 <+doy> "illusory doy" sounds really weird
09:55 <+doy> (:
09:55 <+due> illusion of doy?
09:55 <+due> doy's illusion sounds like it's an illusion doy is responsible.
09:55 <+due> rather than that it is an illusion of doy.
09:55 <+doy> just thinking for parallelism with "doy's ghost"
09:55 <+due> yeah.
09:56 <+doy> but either one's fine
09:56 <+due> I'll go for illusion of.
09:56 <+doy> okay
09:56 <+due> oh, need's to be o's illusion.
09:56 <+due> Otehrwse you get "illusion of o hits you".
09:57 <+by> wouldn't it be "The illusion of f hits you"?
09:57 <+due> No, weird mname issues.
09:57 <+due> I'd have to start playing around with monster name flags and then it starts to get hackish.
09:58 < CIA-81> due * r1e193cb797ba /crawl-ref/source/player.cc: Give Halflings the same HP gains as Sludge Elves (Vandal, dpeg).
09:58 < CIA-81> due * r1f8eaa7055fd /crawl-ref/source/ (describe.cc directn.cc monster.cc): Mara's summoned ghosts are "illusions".
09:59  * due goes.
10:12 < Napkin> heh - soudns like an update is in order?
10:13 <+doy> yes!
10:13 <+doy> turtles!
10:14 <+doy> maybe this weekend i'll do some actual playtesting
10:14 <+doy> (:
10:15 < Napkin> Master branch on CDO updated to: 0.6.0-a1-2088-g1f8eaa7 (15.2)
10:15 < Napkin> done :)
10:15 <+greensnark> Yay
10:15 <+greensnark> Thanks Napking
10:16 < Twinge> I suggested a Halfling HP gain boost over a week ago :P  Oh well.  Guess it got lost in the overall list...
10:16 < Napkin> oh, my pleasure, greensnark :)
10:16 <+greensnark> Actually, it might be better if you hadn't updated, now I'm tempted to play :P
10:16  * greensnark is virtuous.
10:16  * Napkin whistles innocently *
10:17  * greensnark goes back to work.
10:17 < Napkin> good boy!
10:17 -!- by [n=rob@g225109252.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
10:25 < cbus> who is bookofjude?
10:25 < cbus> doy?
10:25 < cbus> or due
10:25 < cbus> updated http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=352 anyway
10:26 < cbus> forgot that I actually made a macro to make spellcasting useable :D
10:28 <+doy> bookofjude is due
10:30 <+doy> hmmmmmm
10:30 <+doy> now i'm getting that crash that cryp71c was getting earlier
10:36 < Napkin> for Yredelemnul you need to stand exactly _on_ a corpse/skeleton to "animate remains"? :-O
10:36 < Napkin> due, cbus 
10:38 <+sorear> yes
10:47 < Napkin> pity?
10:47 < Napkin> of design goal to make it weaker?
10:48 <+sorear> yes
10:48 <+sorear> you can't use it in a thick fight
10:48 <+sorear> a necromancer can drop animate dead in the middle of a large battle, and all the corpses get up
11:07 <+kilobyte> Yred's worshippers can do that too, it just costs piety, more MP and food, and is available later
11:07 <+kilobyte>  %%%%
11:07 <+kilobyte> -grey snake
11:07 <+kilobyte> +anaconda 
11:07 <+kilobyte> A very large grey python. %%%%
11:08 <+sorear> ??
11:08 < Henzell> [1/2881]: 
11:09 <+kilobyte> greensnark just changed this, not noticing the very next line :p
11:09 <+sorear> huh?
11:10 <+sorear> it can still be grey
11:10 <+sorear> even if it's not in the name
11:10 <+doy> anacondas aren't pythons
11:11 < CIA-81> kilobyte * rda6cd30a31bf /crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/monsters.txt: Anacondas are not pythons.
11:14 < Eronarn> "A very large grey python. Anacondas are not pythons."
11:27 <+doy> !tell Enne commit 4294ce7 causes some wizmode prompts (like the xl change prompt at least) to assert in cgotoxy
11:27 < Henzell> doy: OK, I'll let Enne know.
11:28 <+kilobyte> uhm, why would snapping turtles have reaching?
11:29 <+kilobyte> They can extend their head, 20cm max.  That's a small fraction of for example an unarmed human's reach.
11:30 <+kilobyte> and it's really puzzling why a turtle would reach you from afar
11:33 -!- ortoslon [n=chatzill@host-89-31-115-253.academ.org] has joined ##crawl-dev
11:34 < ortoslon> !tell dpeg i second removing rslow
11:34 < Henzell> ortoslon: OK, I'll let dpeg know.
11:35 < Eronarn> kilobyte: ...who proposed giving them reaching? who proposed *adding* them?
11:36 <+due> hi
11:36 <+kilobyte> due: meow!
11:37 <+due> Grey snakes were renamed anacondas.
11:37 <+due> Eronarn: What's wrong with turtles?
11:38 <+kilobyte> due: they have reaching with no reasonable explanation
11:38 <+due> Then ask greensnark?
11:38 <+kilobyte> if they were named "magic turtles" or somehow, it could be plausible.  Normal turtles, not so much.
11:38 <+due> It's not the end of the world.
11:39 <+due> Eronarn: And turtles have been on the "to add" agenda for months.
11:40 <+kilobyte> or rather, a constant way to taunt dpeg :p
11:41 <+kilobyte> but seriously, we could have great turtles or such as well
11:42 <+due> greensnark picked to make snapping turtles.
11:47 < Eronarn> due: I love turtles, I just didn't realize they had any chance of actually getting in
11:48 -!- ortoslon [n=chatzill@host-89-31-115-253.academ.org] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20091221164558]"]
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11:50 < Eronarn> Also, voted centaur anchorite.
11:50 < Eronarn> Lives on remote islands in the Shoals.
11:50 <+due> Anchorite?
11:50 <+due> Sounds very much like "news anchor".
11:50 <+due> Interesting mental image.
11:51 < Eronarn> .noun
11:51 < Eronarn> a person who has retired to a solitary place for a life of religious seclusion; hermit.
11:51 < Eronarn> but it will confuse players, who will think it has something to do with anchors
11:51 <+due> Especially in shoals.
11:51 < CIA-81> kilobyte * r059ab8090124 /crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: Sort testudines into their place.
11:51 <+due> "centaur apologist" would be cool.
11:51 < Eronarn> yes
11:51 <+kilobyte> it's already used for a Zin title
11:51 <+due> Yeah, I know.
11:51 < Eronarn> ...centaur of zin!
11:51 <+due> Centaur priests of Zin!
11:51 <+due> He feeds them 'cos they get so huuungry.
11:52 < Eronarn> someone should really get around to fixing zin
11:52 <+kilobyte> or rather, fills around 1/100 of their food needs.  Zin can't keep even a spriggan fed.
11:52 -!- syllogism [i=syllogis@88-148-220-185.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined ##crawl-dev
11:54 <+due> ah jesus, iron golem chasing me
11:57 <+due> :( run out of sling bullets.
11:57 <+due> Oh god, erolcha.
11:59 <+sorear> Zin used to be able to keep spriggans fed
11:59 <+sorear> Back in the good old days when he took corpse sacrifices
12:03 <+due> Er.
12:03 <+due> Oh damn it, I lost the trove marker *agian*.
12:05 <+kilobyte> Well, Zin is based on christianity, and the Old Testament god used to take animal sacrifices...
12:07 <+due> Ah, it was in the stash.
12:07 < Eronarn> kilobyte: i wonder how well it would work if zin asked for specific sacrifices, or at specific times
12:09 <+greensnark> Snapping turtles aren't intended to be based on reality
12:09 <+greensnark> Not much of Crawl is intended to be based on reality :P
12:09 <+greensnark> Or you could start asking why rats leap out and attack the player :P
12:10 < cbus> is the Ha HP patch on CDO?
12:10 <+due> Or how orange rats are capable of draining your life force.
12:10 <+greensnark> Orange rats are so cuuute!
12:10 <+due> cbus: Yes.
12:10 < Napkin> hmmm.. how about also for Hill Orcs to choose "clean" food before "unclean/rotting" when pressing e to eat?
12:11 < cbus> trying one then :)
12:11 < Napkin> apart from the fact that my hill orc can eat rotten mean - he's getting as often sich from "unclean" chunks as any other char too
12:11 < Napkin> *sick
12:12 < Napkin> or is that a bug?
12:12 < Twinge> It's 7%, instead of 33%.
12:12 < Twinge> Unless it changed in trunk
12:13 < Napkin> i can't feel that difference at all, to be honest
12:13 < Napkin> but might just be my special relationship to rng...
12:13 < cbus> ?? dex[1]
12:13 < Henzell> dex[1/2]: Theoretically increases to hit, damage by a bit (if you have a small weapon), chance of stabbing distracted mons and stealth as well.  Improves your EV up to a certain amount -- see {dodging}. You're better off training str once you've maximized dodging effect though.  Boosts ability to shield-block, especially for bucklers, less for large shields.
12:13 <+due> cbus: HaHu :)
12:13 < cbus> due, HaAs
12:13 < cbus> want the blowgun
12:13 <+due> Or that.
12:14 < cbus> gonna pick up trog
12:14 < cbus> I think
12:14 <+due> No missile gifts though, no?
12:14 < cbus> its either trog or oka
12:15 < cbus> the inscription prompt is bugged
12:15 < cbus> you can't use backspace anymore
12:16 < cbus> due, does oka give branded needles?
12:17 < syllogism> trog does gift missiles
12:18 < syllogism> probably mostly darts though
12:18 < Napkin> oka gives everything... darts, stones, needles, bullets
12:18 < Napkin> last time mostly stones, though
12:18 <+due> We need to fix acquirement for 0.6.
12:20 < Eronarn> is a mantis / wiki page about it
12:20 <+due> We could putt it on the RC brainstorm page that dpeg started today.
12:23 <+greensnark> Acquirement golf, where you putt on RC brainstorm greens
12:23 <+due> :D
12:23  * due acquires a 9 iron.
12:24 < Eronarn> i kind of wonder how well it would work to have a lesser and greater acquirement; i'd like it if the scrolls were really quite good but god acquirements weren't
12:24 -!- ortoslon [n=chatzill@host-89-31-115-253.academ.org] has joined ##crawl-dev
12:24 < cbus> ?? menakure
12:24 < Henzell> I don't have a page labeled menakure in my learndb.
12:25 < cbus> ?? menkaure
12:25 < Henzell> menkaure[1/1]: A unique, early mummy, also found in Ossuary. Knows pain, torment, and haste. Orc-wizard purple!
12:25 <+greensnark> Mena Kure, the Crawl eqivalent of Mena Suvari?
12:27 <+greensnark> due: Menkaure complete pwned cbus in that battle :P
12:27 < cbus> due, he didn't
12:27 < cbus> due, the monsters next to him did
12:27 < cbus> if I had free sight those silver darts would've owned him :)
12:27 <+greensnark> I thought you were using him to torment the ogre and stuff, and I thought, "Hey, that's creative!"
12:27 <+greensnark> And then you started running away :P
12:27 < cbus> greensnark, he didn't torment other stuff
12:28 <+greensnark> He did
12:28 < cbus> tried to get free sight
12:28 < cbus> way to many uniques
12:28 <+greensnark> Yay, my work is almost done
12:28 < Napkin> shoals await you!
12:28 <+greensnark> Pretty soon I shall resume my OgEn!
12:29 <+greensnark> I want to find a wizlab :P
12:29 <+greensnark> I already know what Shoals look like :P
12:29 <+greensnark> Plus it'd be rather embarrassing to splat there :P
12:29 < Napkin> hehehe
12:31 < Napkin> btw, can the flood in shoals kill me, if I auto-explore through shallow water and deep water shows up below me?
12:32 <+greensnark> No
12:32 <+greensnark> If the tide can't move you out of the way, the water at your location will remain shallow
12:32 < Napkin> ah, good :)
12:32 < Napkin> ah, the tide will move me? cool :)
12:32 <+sorear> No
12:32 <+greensnark> The monsters are quite capable of killing you :)
12:33 < Napkin> "No"?
12:33 <+sorear> Your mass is so great that you will stay put and the tide will change course to avoid you
12:33 <+sorear> Crawl devs these days have no sense of what's right, bowing to silly issues like YASD potential
12:33 <+greensnark> sorear: That's only if the tide cannot find a safe square to move you :P
12:34 <+greensnark> It will also extend the same courtesy to monsters :P
12:34 <+sorear> What, I can't drown a monster by walling it in with summons?
12:34 <+greensnark> Nope
12:34 <+sorear> LAME
12:34 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r36092d671b36 /crawl-ref/source/ (rltiles/dc-mon/unique/kirke.png tilemcache.cc): Give Kirke's tile a staff and remove her from the weapon offset function.
12:34 <+greensnark> You just have to confuse it instead :P
12:34 <+sorear> wait, what
12:35 <+sorear> I thought we were moving AWAY from hardcoded tile weapons
12:35 <+due>    Since Kirke is a spellcaster and not wielding a weapon, she looks kinda stupid
12:35 <+greensnark> Does Kirke get a staff?
12:35 <+due>    holding her hand like that and the staff is a common sign of a unique being
12:35 < Eronarn> why not just make drowning possible but make autoexplore treat deep water like it does fish in shoals
12:35 <+due>    a spellcaster.
12:36 <+greensnark> Eronarn: Fedhas sunlight can also result in squares going from safe -> deep in very short order
12:36 <+greensnark> i.e. when the tide kicks in, squares that Fedhas sunlight left as floor can go to deep water in one shot
12:37 <+greensnark> Also players apparently find the tide pretty annoying already :P
12:37 <+kilobyte> well, autoexplore is nearly worthless in the Shoals
12:37 <+greensnark> Because it keeps cutting off islands
12:37 <+kilobyte> more because passable areas keep coming and going
12:38 <+due> Who cares, it looks awesome.
12:39 <+kilobyte> in the old Shoals, you needed levitation in just a couple of places that a scroll of mapping would point out to you, in new Shoals, you'd better be flying all the time
12:39 <+due> ... why?
12:39 <+due> The tides don't come in that quickly.
12:39 <+sorear> Or swimming!
12:39 <+due> And you can access islands at low tide, no?
12:40 <+greensnark> due: Flying is really useful because it gives you much more room to maneuver
12:40 <+greensnark> Fly/Lev
12:40 <+kilobyte> I didn't notice disconnected areas getting accessible.
12:40 <+greensnark> And Shoals are pretty dangerous
12:40 <+greensnark> kilobyte: Almost 100% of levels will be fully accessible at low tide
12:40 <+greensnark> But the tide always starts at neutral -> high -> back down towards low
12:41 <+kilobyte> the problem is, you don't know when nor where to go
12:41 <+greensnark> So you won't see low tide unless you spend a reasonable amount of time on the level
12:42 < Eronarn> shoals should really have some anti-flying monsters
12:42 <+due> Eronarn: Airstrikers?
12:42 < Eronarn> due: possibly but not necessarily
12:42 <+greensnark> Oh due -- Gastronok <3
12:43 < Eronarn> due: one thing that I like: magic the gathering has jellyfish monsters
12:43 <+greensnark> I had a funny Gastronok fight the other day
12:43 < Eronarn> however, they almost all are *flying* jellyfish
12:43 <+due> :D
12:43  * kilobyte got Gastronok there, but due to the amount of javelineers it's not like I had a chance to engage him.
12:43 < Eronarn> big flying js would be pretty awesome
12:43 <+kilobyte> flumphs!
12:43 <+due> Aren't jellyfish J?
12:44 < Eronarn> oh
12:44 < Eronarn> yes
12:44 < Eronarn> I'm not really sure why
12:44 < Eronarn> That should probably change with Jiyva
12:44 <+greensnark> They should be transparent and really hard to spot
12:44 <+greensnark> And they should be able to engulf fliers!
12:44 <+greensnark> Including harpies
12:44 < Eronarn> oh man
12:44 < Eronarn> greensnark: they could drop the skeleton behind after they're done eating!!
12:44 <+greensnark> Hehe
12:47 <+kilobyte> greensnark: BTW, having a javelineer sniping you with countless javelins of chaos, and him still having 12 left when he died is not funny
12:47 <+due> That shouldn't happen.
12:47 <+greensnark> I don't really specify javelineer missile brands
12:47 <+due> Monsters specifically get javelin stacks reduced when they're handed out.
12:47 <+kilobyte> especially since ranged chaos missiles are pretty likely to cause bad mutations
12:48 <+due> You get to blame me for chaos branded missiles.
12:48 <+greensnark> I did intentionally specify large numbers of javelins for javelineers, because it's their thing
12:48 <+greensnark> They're pretty helpless without something to throw
12:49 <+sorear> Do ranged chaos weapons use ammo
12:49 <+due> Ah.
12:49 <+greensnark> I suppose I could explicitly define their brands
12:49 <+due> sorear: Yes.
12:49 <+kilobyte> the game generated the levels after that change
12:49 <+due> What change?
12:49 <+kilobyte> (Napkin updated CDO around midnight UTC)
12:49 <+sorear> kilobyte: Javelineers have M_ARCHER, once they run out of ammo they're about as dangerous in melee as pre-0.6 brain worms
12:50 -!- ortoslon [n=chatzill@host-89-31-115-253.academ.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
12:50 <+due> The "bolt of foo" changes?
12:50 <+greensnark> Oh, javelins now get their quantities reduced :P
12:50 <+sorear> greensnark: WHYYYY
12:50 <+due> greensnark: They always have. :o
12:51 <+greensnark> Oh, it doesn't seem to affect javelineers anyway <3
12:51 <+sorear> javelineers need bottomless clips
12:51 <+greensnark> sorear: I thought due was confessing to a recent change :P
12:51 < cbus> hmm, I might've found a bug
12:51 < cbus> dagger id surprisingly fast when thrown
12:51 < cbus> :D
12:51 <+sorear> The deep elf master archer mumbles strange words.  New arrows materialise in its clip.
12:51 < cbus> could've been luck
12:52 <+due> Nope, they've always been generated in small stacks; that might be burelly makeitem.cc, though.
12:52 <+sorear> er, quiver
12:52 <+sorear> too much doomrl
12:52 <+due> sorear: Too much doomrl.
12:52 <+greensnark> Mac software update is so moronic. It throws up a silly progress dialog that runs for 40s even *after it has downloaded everything and decided it's time to upgade*
12:52 <+due> greensnark: Problem here is: "Mac". :)
12:52 <+greensnark> True :)
12:52 <+kilobyte> sorear: sounds like a good idea
12:53 <+kilobyte> it's not the amount of ammunition that's a problem, it's just ranged chaos brand that's insane
12:53 <+due> kilobyte: You could remove polymorph.
12:53 <+kilobyte> 1/19 chance of polymorph.  1/19 chance of banishment.
12:53 <+sorear> Your fault for worshipping Xom
12:53 <+due> sorear: It's not a Xom thing.
12:53 <+greensnark> sorear: It's randomly generated now, isn't it?
12:53 <+sorear> greensnark: eew
12:53 <+due> sorear: Javelins can randomly generate with chaos brand.
12:54 <+sorear> due: once upon a time, all chaos weapons were gifted by Xom, either on the floor or directly into monster inventories
12:54 <+kilobyte> sorear: in my current game, a merfolk javelineer had a large stack of those
12:54 <+greensnark> Chaos could be a Xom-special and removed from random gen
12:54 <+due> greensnark: It would make sense.
12:54 < Eronarn> sorear: wait, brain worms got buffed?
12:54 <+greensnark> Wasn't it initially that way, though?
12:54 <+sorear> Eronarn: Yes.
12:54 <+due> greensnark: dpeg decided thtat javelins and nets could be chaos.
12:55 <+sorear> Eronarn: They now have a melee attack (on par with an ooze)
12:55 <+greensnark> Nets of chaos?
12:55 <+kilobyte> Yiuf and Psyche can be thought of as having a blessing of Xom
12:55 < cbus>  You hear the crackle of electricity. L - an uncursed glowing orcish dagger of electrocution (weapon)
12:55 <+greensnark> Hey, cbus took out a whole slew of uniques
12:55 <+greensnark> Trog :P
12:55 < cbus> greensnark, abused the shit out of them
12:55 < Eronarn> oh, that's still basically helpless :)
12:55 < cbus> I didn't zerk 
12:55 < cbus> just needles of paralysis
12:56 <+greensnark> sorear: javelineers have a respectable 17 damage melee attack
12:56 <+greensnark> Well, it's not likely to scare anyone
12:56 <+greensnark> But it's not pathetic
12:56 <+due> cbus: What's your throwing skill?
12:56 < cbus> 6
12:56 <+sorear> greensnark: Do they ever use it?  I thought M_ARCHER monsters just stood there and posed if they couldn't shoot for whatever reason
12:56 <+greensnark> sorear: That's no longer the case :)
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12:57 <+greensnark> master archers do have a pathetic 5 damage melee attack though
12:57 < cbus> hmm, found a bug with explosive (?) darts
12:57 <+Zaba> hi dpeg
12:57 < cbus> you get a "That beam is likely to hit you." prompt if you target something next to you
12:57 <@dpeg> greensnark: a mail awaits your reply!
12:57 < Henzell> dpeg: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
12:57 <+greensnark> But they also have enough ammo that it shouldn't enter the pictre much
12:57 <+due> greensnark: HIDE.
12:57 < cbus> and they are NOT ided yet
12:57 <@dpeg> Hi everyone.
12:57 <+due> QUICK HIDE
12:57 <+greensnark> A mail?
12:57  * due ducks behind the turtle.
12:57 <+sorear> speak of the devil
12:57 <+greensnark> Oh rSlow
12:57 <+greensnark> I'm in favour
12:58 <@dpeg> greensnark: the other part of the bargain!
12:58 <@dpeg> greensnark: just reply to the mail :)
12:58 <+sorear> dpeg: There is talk of axing SPMSL_CHAOS from random gen
12:58 <+due> You bargained turtles for rSlow?
12:58 <+greensnark> But! removing rSlow is not sufficient, I still want 150% hp boost only for zerk :)
12:58 <@dpeg> due: yes, I am know to be cheap.
12:58 <+due> dpeg: :)
12:58  * due working on troves.
12:58 <@dpeg> greensnark: you can also say that!
12:58 <+Zaba> but what's so bad about turtles?
12:58 <+greensnark> Ok :)
12:58 <+Zaba> I likes 'em
12:58  * dpeg working on botono.
12:58 <+greensnark> Zaba: Nothing wrong with turtles, it's just an elaborate, long-running gag
12:59 <+due> Don't mention the turtles!
12:59 <+greensnark> Zaba: The same way I keep ragging you about using dtach and dpeg about his lobster nature :P
12:59 <@dpeg> greensnark: I reckon that rSlow is the worst offender. 150% vs 200% is much smaller, by orders of magnitude.
12:59 <+sorear> I forget, you guys have shuffled their powers around so many times, which good god has the Unslow invocation?
12:59 <+greensnark> dpeg: Agreed that rSlow is much worse, but 200% hp is pretty bad as well
12:59 <@dpeg> Ely
12:59 <+kilobyte> the turtle moves!
12:59 <@dpeg> no Zin
12:59 <@dpeg> wait, now it's TSO
13:00 <+due> No, it's Fedhas.
13:00 <+greensnark> The hp boost was so large that it made berserk a no-brainer for my Og
13:00 <+due> Silly. Keep up!
13:00 < Ashenzari> exploding darts identification (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=358) by cbus
13:00 <@dpeg> greensnark: we don't need your heavy vote on c-r-d to get 200% -> 150%
13:00 <+greensnark> And boosting monsters to 200% hp makes it even less likely that players will stay and fight
13:00 <@dpeg> but we need it for rSlow axing
13:00 <+sorear> The solution then is to give berserk 50% hp
13:00 <+due> dpeg: If I vote for rSlow, can  I have wraiths and vampires in Botono's? 
13:00 <+greensnark> I'll send that email :)
13:00 <@dpeg> due: no :)
13:00 <@dpeg> I am not *that* cheap.
13:01 <+due> :(
13:01 <+due> Feh, I still have Grinder okay'd and up my sleeve. :D
13:01 <@dpeg> You can make an undead botono anyway.
13:01 <+due> I've lost track of the compromises and agreements I've made!
13:01 <@dpeg> due: as long as your soul gets blacker with every trade, you're on the right track, young man
13:02 <+due> :>
13:02 < Eronarn> due: Botono could totally have the enslave-plus-mindless venom used in some way
13:02 <+due> Eronarn: "zombi dust"?
13:02 < Eronarn> due: could be a monster that uses it on other ones as long as they're in LOS!
13:02 <+due> There should be a houngan priest that converts your allies to mindless, neutral zombies. :D
13:02 <@dpeg> due: I will object to overly US-centric voodoo staples, though. After all, that was one reason why we renamed the staff.
13:03 <@dpeg> US = Hollywood, I guess
13:03 <+due> dpeg: I won't use Hollywood at all. :)
13:03 <+due> Trust me, I know quite a bit about non-Hollywood vodou and hodou.
13:04 <@dpeg> ok
13:04 <+due> >:)
13:04 <@dpeg> due: part of your religous education? :)
13:04 <+due> Heh, nah.
13:04 <+due> Just curiosity.
13:05 <+due> greensnark: I am inclined to include root beer in the Botono map, though.
13:05 <@dpeg> I take the square root of beer.
13:06 <+due> dpeg: Can you add fixing RC acquirement?
13:06 <+due> Who did the last acquirement overhaul? jpeg?
13:07 <+sorear> nobody's really overhauled acquirement since the Brent days
13:07 <+due> Part of the issue with darts in throwing is that it's now diifficult to work out what ammunition you want.
13:07 <+sorear> a minor tweak here, a minor tweak there
13:07 <+sorear> due: on the contrary - since they're merged, it doesn't matter which you get
13:08 <+sorear> make it randomish weighted by stats
13:08 <+due> true.
13:08 <+due> greensnark: http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=346
13:08 <@dpeg> sorear: books!
13:09 <@dpeg> ah, as both due and sorear are here: we can postpone the Str/Dex (and item mass etc.) thing until later
13:09 <+due> Yeah, apparently we need to fix curare now, though.
13:09 <@dpeg> greensnark: thanks
13:09 <@dpeg> sanguine as ever
13:09 <+due> I'm inclined to having the asphyxiation and slowing and poison all separate parts.
13:10 <+greensnark> due: Does this still happen? I cannot replicate it in wizmode
13:10 <+due> greensnark: I'm not sure.
13:10 <@dpeg> I met Dowan yesterday and killer him with four curare needles, of which three connected at 0 skill.
13:10 <@dpeg> *killed
13:10 <+greensnark> dpeg: What's the replacement for rSlow, though? :)
13:10 <@dpeg> greensnark: guardian spirit?
13:10 <+greensnark> We have so few interesting amulets
13:10 <@dpeg> there is an amulet FR somewhere
13:11 <+greensnark> Oh, but guardian spirit was already in :)
13:11 <+greensnark> We need a new one :)
13:11 <@dpeg> that FR had some cool ideas
13:11 <@dpeg> I tell you that an amulet which (randomly) reduces teleport kicking in will be good
13:11 <@dpeg> especially now that the abuse is gone
13:11 <@dpeg> should still be slapped on cFly
13:12 <@dpeg> "Superior Flight"
13:12 <+due> dpeg: Why not slap resist slowing as an enchantment effect onto cFly?
13:12 <+due> and have it not affect berserk.
13:12 <+due> (Obviously).
13:12 <@dpeg> due: does it fit?
13:12 <+due> Controlled flight.
13:12 <+sorear> dpeg: I'm leaving, what do you need me for?
13:12 <+due> You can control your flight (as in, running away).
13:12 <+greensnark> I like it
13:12 <+due> Therefore, you can't be slowed down.
13:12 < Eronarn> greensnark: amulet of strangulation.
13:12 <+due> (I think it's a rather witty pun.)
13:13 < Eronarn> In combat it flies off of you to strangle your enemies!
13:13 <@dpeg> sorear: your assessment on whether the Dex/Str etc. for missiles will be part of 0.6 or not
13:13 <+greensnark> :P
13:13 <+greensnark> Eronarn: It'd be a throwing amulet :)
13:13 <@dpeg> due: hey, that's my pun :)
13:13 < Napkin> I now have "Animate Remains" (Great), "Recall Undead Slaves" (Very Good) and "Animate Dead" (Excellent) from Yred - should the last of those abilities have a better success rate?
13:13 <+greensnark> "You throw the amulet of strangulation at Norris! Norris rolls around on the floor clutching his throat!"
13:13 < Napkin> lol
13:13 <+sorear> Eronarn: No, it gives you a constricting tentacle aux attack while worn
13:13 <+greensnark> Hentai amulet?
13:13 < Eronarn> Ooh
13:14 < Eronarn> That would be neat
13:14 <@dpeg> "Norris picks up the amulet and throws it to Erolcha."
13:14 <+greensnark> Oh, you said constricting
13:14 <+sorear> What did you hear
13:14 <+greensnark> "tentacle"
13:14 < Eronarn> It could do basically the same thing as naga constriction but in an amulet - and make theirs even better
13:14 <+sorear> dpeg: I have the formula already - could do it tomorrow if I remember it
13:15 <+sorear> greensnark: remember, Eronarn is the tentacle task force
13:15 <@dpeg> due: sure, why not slap rSLow onto Flight. My point is that with faster teleports, the amulet will actually be interesting. :)
13:15 <+due> dpeg: Sure.
13:15 <@dpeg> sorear: cool! Did you see my comments?
13:15 <+sorear> Amulet of stasis - no teleport, no slow, no haste, no paralyze
13:15 <@dpeg> Any objections to doing both?
13:15 <+sorear> interesting (y/n)?
13:15 < Napkin> sorry to interrupt - but is that a bug or desired?
13:15 < Eronarn> sorear: y
13:15 <@dpeg> yes
13:15 <+due> Napkin: I'm not sure.
13:16 < Eronarn> dpeg: i object because i don't think the pun is enough to support it
13:16 <+due> Napkin: It seems odd.
13:16 < Eronarn> feels too much like a hodgepodge
13:16 <@dpeg> Eronarn: scrap the pun. It would be interesting gameplay-wise.
13:16 <+due> We can rename the amulet to make it fit..
13:16 < Napkin> maybe because "Animate Dead" costs Piety?
13:16 <+due> The Amulet of Escape?
13:16 < Eronarn> dpeg: no, i mean - the abilities do not have enough to do with each other, imo
13:16 <@dpeg> and remove the cFly bit?
13:16 <+due> Napkin: Yes, this is possibly it, come to think of it; while the other two are dependent purely on invocations.
13:16 <+sorear> dpeg: I had not - I will read them tomorrow
13:17 <@dpeg> sorear: please do, I thought about the subject a bit
13:17 < Napkin> roger, thanks!
13:17 <+sorear> amulet of stasis, amulet of constriction, these need to go onto the wiki
13:17 <+sorear> they will be lost here
13:17 < Eronarn> when i think controlled flight, i actually think of not of running away
13:17 < Eronarn> but of projectiles
13:17 <+due> ... Projectiles?
13:18 <@dpeg> okay, so we have two new amulets: Stasis (no haste/slow, paralyse, teleport, blink); [something] (no outside slowing, teleports kick in faster)
13:18 < Eronarn> due: sure. Arrows fly.
13:18 <+due> Why is levitation so annoyingly useless, btw?
13:19 <@dpeg> it isn't
13:20 < Eronarn> dpeg: i kind of like the idea of having it be the opposite of stasis
13:20 < Eronarn> easier for effects to manipulate your movement, whether good or bad
13:22 < Eronarn> - you could also make both of them area effects, rather than self-only
13:22 <@dpeg> this is getting complicated, I feel
13:22 <@dpeg> the worst problem of cFly is that there is no tactical reason to wear it
13:22 <@dpeg> at most, to swap it in for something
13:22 <@dpeg> Clarity and rSlow are better than that
13:23 < Eronarn> dpeg: you could make ring of lev ring of flight
13:23 < Eronarn> and nix cfly altogether
13:23 <+due> Levitation spell.
13:23 < Eronarn> due: Merge Levitation and Flight into one spell, have which you get depend on power.
13:24 <@dpeg> Eronarn: that is an idea, yes
13:24 <@dpeg> would get rid of another amulet
13:24  * sorear out
13:24 < Eronarn> dpeg: just frees up room for more new ones :)
13:25 < Eronarn> amulet of mobility would be neat - faster movement speed but only when you're staying in the reach of opponents
13:28 <@dpeg> rat abuse :)
13:29 < Eronarn> yes, but only lets you gain a single tile of space that way - not sure it's any worse than, say, a +Blink item
13:29 <@dpeg> there are no +Blink items anymore
13:30 <@dpeg> is that true?
13:30 < Eronarn> randarts
13:30 <@dpeg> sorear is gone
13:30 < Eronarn> no base items though
13:30 <@dpeg> Eronarn: we definitely removed the +Lev and +Map properties
13:30 <+due> +Tele and +Map are gone
13:30 <+due> +Blink and +Lev still exist, no?
13:30 < Eronarn> i got a blink as of a few days ago on CDO
13:30 <+due> Maybe not +Lev.
13:30 <@dpeg> due: +Lev not?
13:31 <+due> Unsur.e
13:31 <@dpeg> due: 60x60 is okay for bayou?
13:31 <+due> dpeg: Suer!
13:31 <+due> ... Wow, I cannot spell.
13:34 <+Zaba> a levitation + fight spell that gives either depending on power sounds great
13:34 <+Zaba> but what level would it be?
13:34 <+due> 3!
13:34 <+due> Lev is 2, flight is 4 or 5.
13:35 <+due> Sigh.
13:36 <+due> I keep running into "bah, need to cod more wrappers" for Troves. :(
13:36 <+Zaba> one could go further and merge repel and deflect missiles in a similar manner ;p
13:37 <+due> Don't they now stop missiles that they stop a square away frrom you?
13:37 <+due> they at least have a cool visual effect, or it would be if that were the caser.
13:38 <+greensnark> due: Please keep writing more wrappers, they're so handy <3
13:38 <+greensnark> Thanks for the iterators <3
13:38 <+greensnark> And if it was you who wrote the feat.* wrappers, thanks for those too :)
13:38 <+due> Yeah. :)
13:38  * due has done a lot of wrappering recently.
13:38 <+Zaba> hm.
13:39 <+due> I'm also working on a wrapper for bolt structure, but I don't understand it enough; also, you're welcome!
13:39 <+due> Zaba: I owe you a noisy() wrapper, no?
13:39 <+Zaba> yes
13:39 <+Zaba> my graveyard wizlab will be even more awesome with it ;p
13:39 <+greensnark> !tell Keskitalo !tv pingpong killer=Grum
13:39 < Henzell> greensnark: OK, I'll let Keskitalo know.
13:41 <@dpeg> pingpong?
13:41 <+greensnark> cbus
13:41 <@dpeg> due: bbbut the troves deserve it!
13:42 <+due> dpeg: I know :)
13:42 <@dpeg> due: can anyone help you? Mr Snark perhaps?
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13:43 <+due> dpeg: He already has. :)
13:44 <+due> I may beg him to clean up my code once it's done.
13:44 <+due> It might look a little hackish, but it should work.
13:45 <@dpeg> due: do you need more speech lines?
13:45 <@dpeg> I had some ideas back then.
13:45 <+due> For theimp?
13:45 <+due> Sure.
13:45 <+due> Okay, pluses wrapper working properly.
13:46 < CIA-81> due * r7b7f0f9f0bfa /crawl-ref/source/l_item.cc: Lua item pluses wrapper.
13:46 <+due> Hm, Enne was looking at Lua documentation... I wonder if anything simple/easy came of it.
13:46 <+due> Pluses looks so wrong.
13:46 <+due> Surely it should be plusses. :(
13:46 < Eronarn> due: rmsl/dmsl should knock missiles off of a straight path, so that they never hit things behind you, but only behind + to the sides
13:46 <@dpeg> due: plusi
13:46 <+due> dpeg: pli
13:46 <@dpeg> +++
13:47 <+due> Actually, pluris, perhaps.
13:47 <+due> No, that's accusative. Hm.
13:49  * dpeg is free from any Latin educational burden
13:50 <+due> Also a hobby.
13:50 <+due> <-- freak
13:51 <+greensnark> I found the cbus death so amusing because he was using needles of paralysis, and look, Grum had some paralysis of his own :P
13:51 < cbus> greensnark, I don't really see the amusement in it :)
13:51 <+due> What did he have?
13:51  * greensnark is easily amused by people dying.
13:51 < cbus> dunno, pressed to fast
13:52 <+greensnark> He had a wand of paralysis
13:52 <+greensnark> I think
13:52 <+greensnark> cbus was keyhammering rather vigorously :P
13:52 <+due> hahaha
13:52 <+greensnark> !log pinpong killer=Grum
13:52 < cbus> greensnark, tend to do that when bored
13:52 < Henzell> No games for pinpong (killer=Grum).
13:52 <+greensnark> !log pingpong killer=Grum
13:52 < Henzell> 1. pingpong, XL9 HaAs, T:10346: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/pingpong/morgue-pingpong-20100108-120917.txt
13:52 <+greensnark> Yeah, wand of paralysis :)
13:52 <+greensnark> The +0 needle of paralysis misses Grum.
13:52 <+greensnark> Grum zaps a wand.
13:52 <+greensnark> You suddenly lose the ability to move!
13:53 <+due> Mwaahahaha.
13:53 < cbus> real deaths are more interesting than instadeaths imo
13:55 <+due> okay, Grinder and troves wait until tomorrow, I guess.
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13:56 < Napkin> oooh, very cool: Yredelemnul grants you an undead servant! :)
13:57 < Napkin> a wight - will follow me to in other levels, right?
13:57 <+greensnark> Yred's servants are kickass
13:57 <+greensnark> Yes
13:57 < Napkin> \o/
13:57 <+greensnark> Do make sure you can survive when they're not around though :P
13:57 <+due> Argh.
13:58 <+due> greensnark: Is it unfeasable for the items wrapper to actually be dgn.items_at(x, y)[1].name?
13:58 <+greensnark> ?
13:58 < Napkin> I was put off trying Yred.. because of cumbersome handing of summons/raised undead in the past - but giving "Recall Undead Slaves" very early is a treat :)
13:58 < Napkin> *handling
13:58 <+due> dgn.mons_at(x, y) returns a mons userdata.
13:58 <+due> Whereas items_at returns a table of lightuserdata.
13:58 <+due> which you have to pass to the item.XXX() function.
13:58 <+due> So currently it's items.name(dgn.items_at(x, y)[1])
13:59 <+greensnark> Yeah, that's a bit of a mess
13:59 <+greensnark> I think those were the first things I wrote for Lua
13:59 <+due> :)
13:59 <+greensnark> And I had no idea what I was doing
13:59  * due laughs.
13:59 <+due> I need to look at how the monster table stuff works and I might see about changing it.
13:59 <+greensnark> I was also burdened by having to avoid leaking information to the player
13:59 <+due> Not tonight though, I need to sleep now.
13:59 <+greensnark> Those were all added for user scripts
13:59 <+due> Yeah.
13:59 <+due> Information leak = painful.
14:00 <+Zaba_> I still don't really understand userdata and lightuserdata stuff.
14:00 <+Zaba_> well, only vaguely
14:00 <+greensnark> Userdata is a C++ object whose memory is managed by Lua
14:00 <+Zaba_> and lightuserdata is a pointer, right?
14:00 <+greensnark> Lightuserdata is just a pointer
14:00 <+greensnark> Yes
14:00 <+Zaba_> well, I just don't understand how to do anything useful with them on practice ;p
14:00 <+greensnark> Userdata is generally safer to use and nicer to use because you can attach a metatable to it
14:00 <+due> Okay, I actually saved my troove stuff in a branch! Hooray!
14:01 <+due> Yeah.
14:01 <+due> Userdata metatables are nice.
14:01 <+greensnark> Lua can verify the type of userdata, but not light userdata
14:01 <+due> Lightuserdata makes me weep.
14:02 <+due> Is there any reason why Mangled by blah blah with blah blah (blah damage), the damage isn't on the same line as the weapon/kaux?
14:03 <+greensnark> Legacy raisins
14:03 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * rd04148fa8117 /crawl-ref/source/ (4 files in 3 dirs): Add preliminary turtle tile.
14:03 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r82a7b6bf2daa /crawl-ref/source/rltiles/ (49 files in 3 dirs): Move nonliving monsters' tiles into subfolder dc-mon/nonliving.
14:03 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r36ea33205eed /crawl-ref/source/ (4 files in 3 dirs): Add a powder-blue snake tile variant for sea snakes.
14:03 <+greensnark> Nobody wants to stir up hiscores.cc if they can help it
14:03 <+due> In instances there are no kauxes, you get a blank line.
14:03 -!- neunon [n=neunon@unaffiliated/neunon] has joined ##crawl-dev
14:03 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v neunon] by ChanServ
14:03 <+greensnark> Hey jpeg is doing tiles for the new monsters <3
14:03 < Eronarn> sea snakes?! :O
14:04 <+greensnark> Well, they're not real sea snakes :P
14:04 <+due> Oh man, turtle tile. <3
14:04 <+Zaba_> would I use light or full userdata if i wanted to associate lua tables with some C data structures?
14:04 <+greensnark> They can move quite nippily over land, unlike real sea snakes :P
14:04 <+Zaba_> (if I don't need to access said lua table from C code, and only from lua)
14:04 <+greensnark> Zaba_: A good rule of thumb is: always use userdata where possible
14:05 <+due> I'd use userdata in that case.
14:05 <+greensnark> lightuserdata is essentially a second-class citizen
14:05 <+Zaba_> but what'd I use a block of memory I allocate for?
14:05 <+greensnark> And very unsafe
14:05 <+Zaba_> I was thinking of using light userdata as indices in the registry in that case, and use the registry for tables
14:05 <+greensnark> Zaba_: Userdata need not be a C struct or a C++ object
14:05 <+due> Actually, I already have a noisy wrapper
14:05 <+greensnark> It can be a C pointer
14:06 <+greensnark> And you can then malloc() up a struct and assign it to the pointer
14:06 <+greensnark> That's what Crawl does, btw. It uses pointers as userdata 
14:06 <+Zaba_> I see..
14:07 <+greensnark> The main advantage of userdata is you can say bolt:fire()
14:07 <+greensnark> Whereas with light userdata
14:07 <+greensnark> You must say bolt.fire(<lightuserdata>, ..)
14:07 <+greensnark> And Lua cannot type-check the lightuserdata if you have different types
14:07 <+Zaba_> yeah.. that's kind of ugly.
14:08 <+greensnark> So if you have one lightuserdata for bolt* and one for, say monsters*, you can pass one to a C++ function expecting the other
14:08 <+greensnark> Resulting in a lovely crash
14:08 <+Zaba_> nice
14:08 <+greensnark> Whereas if you try to do that with regular userdata, you'll get a safe Lua error instead when the function checks its parameters
14:09 <+due> Can we move everything into lua_ or luaL_? 
14:09  * due always confused.
14:09 <+Zaba_> lua is the lua API, luaL is from lauxlib
14:10 <+greensnark> Yes, luaL_* is not our code
14:10 <+greensnark> We do have some functions named lua_* but that's not a good idea for new code
14:12 -!- MarvinPA-2 [n=marvin@80-41-167-48.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined ##crawl-dev
14:12 <+due> Now, I sleep.
14:12 < CIA-81> due * r60e491cc65a0 /crawl-ref/source/l_dgn.cc: A simple noisy wrapper for Zaba.
14:12 <+due> I always do lua_checkint and luaL_isstring. :)
14:12 < syllogism> polystyrus the Swashbuckler (L12 KoFi), worshipper of Trog, slain by a troll zombie (animated by a shadow imp (summoned by an orc sorcerer (led by an orc warlord))) on Orc:3, with 19471 points after 17912 turns and 1:42:49.
14:12 <+due> GOODBYE
14:13 <+due> <3.
14:13 <+sorear> syllogism: oh, good
14:13 < Napkin> g'night, due!
14:13 <+sorear> I was beginning to fear that the animated by check was broken
14:13 <+sorear> !lg * kpath=~animated
14:13 < Henzell> 3. polystyrus the Swashbuckler (L12 KoFi), worshipper of Trog, slain by a troll zombie (animated by a shadow imp (summoned by an orc sorcerer (led by an orc warlord))) on Orc:3 on 2010-01-08, with 19471 points after 17912 turns and 1:42:49.
14:13 < Napkin> lol
14:13 <+sorear> !lg * kpath=~animated -2
14:13 <+due> Is that the first instance of all three at once?
14:13 < Henzell> 2. Xiberia the Necromancer (L11 DDNe), worshipper of Kikubaaqudgha, demolished by a hill giant skeleton (a +0,+0 giant spiked club) (animated by a skeletal warrior) on D:11 on 2010-01-03, with 9435 points after 16026 turns and 1:26:16.
14:14 <+sorear> !lg * kpath=~animated -3
14:14 < Henzell> 1. Azeral the Cleaver (L9 MDFi), worshipper of Fedhas, slain by an orc skeleton (animated by a shadow imp (summoned by an orc sorcerer)) on Orc:2 on 2009-12-11, with 3492 points after 7637 turns and 1:03:50.
14:15 -!- Eifel [n=Eifel@dslb-084-063-009-123.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
14:15 <+greensnark> !tv polystyrus killer=troll zombie
14:15 < Henzell> 1. polystyrus, XL12 KoFi, T:17912 requested for FooTV.
14:18 <+sorear> The tormentor got him!
14:19 <+greensnark> Elegantly splatted
14:19 <+greensnark> "ROAR I'll kill them all!"
14:21 <+sorear> Has berserk duration been nerfed?
14:21 <+sorear> That seemed like an extremely short zerk
14:21 <+sorear> Especially now that it's measured in absolute time
14:21 <+greensnark> It didn't run out, did it?
14:22 <+sorear> His speed was almost running out twice
14:22 <+greensnark> Berserk duration seemed fine to me with my OgMo
14:22 < syllogism> did someone nerf death's door yet
14:23 < syllogism> it lasts too long when the player is fast
14:23 <+sorear> I think jarpiain is the only person to have ever used that spell
14:24 <+sorear> and his use for it is... weird
14:24 -!- by [n=rob@g225109252.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined ##crawl-dev
14:24 -!- mode/##crawl-dev [+v by] by ChanServ
14:25 < Napkin> erm.. how to pronounce "Yredelemnul" properly? "eered-elemnul"?
14:26 <+greensnark> "Red"
14:26 <+sorear> Yurdy
14:26 -!- GeoBSD [n=geobsd@lns-bzn-38-82-253-122-26.adsl.proxad.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
14:27 <+sorear> Hello!
14:27 < GeoBSD> hi sorear 
14:29 < GeoBSD> can we define CC and CXX on gmake args ?
14:30 -!- MarvinPA [n=marvin@cpc1-oxfd15-0-0-cust71.oxfd.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
14:30 -!- MarvinPA-2 is now known as MarvinPA
14:32 < MarvinPA> hey Napkin, has CDO been updated since http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=356 was resolved by any chance?
14:33 <+greensnark> MarvinPA: Yes
14:33 < Napkin> I updated yesterday because of your "condition", Marvin ;)
14:33 < MarvinPA> heh, ok, so if i log in i should be fixed?
14:35 < GeoBSD> also with scrotwm the game lag do you know why ?
14:35 < syllogism> kilobyte put in a temporary check that should have fixed your game, but it apparently didnt?
14:35 < MarvinPA> it doesn't seem to have
14:35 < MarvinPA> i transferred the save and it still seems to be stuck :(
14:35 < syllogism> try playing for a bit
14:36 < MarvinPA> it's only supposed to last a few turns, if i understand it right
14:36 < MarvinPA> hmm
14:37 < syllogism> he put the check in ~an hour after the initial fix, when did napkin update
14:38 <+greensnark> Napkin updated quite recently
14:38 <+greensnark> In addition to the immediate hog update
14:38 < syllogism> well i guess it doesn't work then
14:39 < syllogism> !source void _decrement_durations()
14:39 < Henzell> Couldn't understand  _decrement_durations()
14:39 < syllogism> !source _decrement_durations()
14:39 < Henzell> Couldn't understand ()
14:39 < syllogism> !source _decrement_durations
14:39 < Henzell> Lines pasted to http://pastebin.com/m24604111
14:39 <+greensnark> Actually, that won't work
14:39 <+greensnark> TAG_MAJOR_VERSION is an enum constant, the preprocessor won't know about it
14:40 <+greensnark> So the code is effectively disabled
14:43 < CIA-81> greensnark * r4d4cc1f7c1f4 /crawl-ref/source/main.cc: Fix shim to undo negative transform durations (workaround for MarvinPA's permanent hog form).
14:43 <+greensnark> Napkin: If you update now, MarvinPA's hog form should be undoable.
14:43 < Napkin> on it
14:43 <+greensnark> You rock :)
14:43 < MarvinPA> awesome
14:45 < Napkin> Master branch on CDO updated to: 0.6.0-a1-2097-g4d4cc1f (15.2)
14:45 < Napkin> try, MarvinPA :)
14:46 < MarvinPA> err... :P
14:46 < MarvinPA> it still seems to be stuck, heh
14:46 <+greensnark> Hee
14:46 <+greensnark> Maybe I should look at your save
14:46 <+greensnark> Let me copy it out
14:46 <+sorear> Why are we comparing TAG_MAJOR_VERSION to constants again?
14:47 <+greensnark> Apparently to make sure the check is removed
14:50 < MarvinPA> well, if the actual issue itself is fixed i can always start a new character, this one is fairly likely to die to horrible nemelex wrath at some point soon :P
14:52 <+greensnark> I'm not sure why we allow negative durations
14:52 < cbus> still no update on http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=358
14:54 < CIA-81> greensnark * r87404d97d0d9 /crawl-ref/source/main.cc: Refix shim for permanent transforms (duration is apparently set to 0).
14:54 <+greensnark> Napkin: Sorry to trouble you again :)
14:54 <+greensnark> This time I've verified that it fixes the save
14:55 < Napkin> no sweat
14:55 < Napkin> Master branch on CDO updated to: 0.6.0-a1-2098-g87404d9 (15.2)
14:56 < Napkin> gogogo, MarvinPA :)
14:56 < MarvinPA> yaaaay
14:56 < MarvinPA> thanks guys :D
14:59 < Napkin> great :)
15:16 < Vandal> !seen due
15:16 < Henzell> I last saw due at Fri Jan  8 13:14:31 2010 UTC (1h 1m 55s ago) saying Led, summoned *and* animated! Three cheers! on ##crawl.
15:16 < Vandal> Did he say anything about Dowan and his Fireballs? :/
15:17 <+greensnark> He changed it to fire storm instead
15:17 < Vandal> oh good
15:17 < syllogism> oh someone nerfed aquamancers :(
15:17 < Vandal> haha
15:17 <+greensnark> syllogism: Twice, actually :P
15:18 < syllogism> keep nerfing until no one splats anymore? :P
15:18 <+greensnark> They don't have any spells that can go through multiple targets now :P
15:18 <+greensnark> Well, everyone thought steam ball fit the water theme better than bolt of cold :P
15:18 < syllogism> all about flavor
15:18 <+greensnark> And I had to fix monster throw icicle going through multiple targets :P
15:19 < syllogism> *looks at preliminary tutle tile*
15:19 <+greensnark> Yeah, I'm curious too!
15:19 < syllogism> aww
15:21 <+greensnark> Hey, cute
15:23 < syllogism> alligator snapping turtles are pretty tough
15:24 <+greensnark> They're quite rare
15:25 < syllogism> strong poison <3
15:26 <+greensnark> I knew you'd never let me live it down if it didn't have strong poison :P
15:26 <+greensnark> @??sea snake
15:26 < Gretell> sea snake (S) | Speed: 14 | HD: 10 | Health: 40-90 | AC/EV: 2/15 | Damage: 24(strong poison) | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: magic(40) | Chunks: poisonous | XP: 871.
15:27 <+greensnark> @??anaconda
15:27 < Gretell> anaconda (S) | Speed: 18 | HD: 11 | Health: 33-88 | AC/EV: 4/16 | Damage: 30 | Flags: cold-blooded | Res: magic(44) | XP: 1136.
15:27 < syllogism> @?? redback
15:27 < Gretell> redback (s) | Speed: 15 | HD: 6 | Health: 18-48 | AC/EV: 2/12 | Damage: 18(strong poison) | Res: magic(24) | Vul: poison | Chunks: poisonous | XP: 299.
15:28 < syllogism> this shoals 5 has 10 turtles (7+3) and 3 sea snakes
15:28 <+greensnark> Higher than normal
15:28 <+greensnark> The sea snake count is about normal
15:28 <+greensnark> But 3 alligator snappers -- rare
15:29 < syllogism> is there a wizmode command to recreate a level
15:29 <+greensnark> No
15:29 <+greensnark> But I did want to write a Lua script to count monsters
15:29 <+greensnark> It's very easy to regen levels in Lua
15:31 < syllogism> oh they've reaching :P
15:32 < syllogism> they both seem to be identical green t's ?
15:32 <+greensnark> The bigger one is supposed to be lightgreen
15:32 <+greensnark> @??alligator snapping turtle
15:32 < Gretell> alligator snapping turtle (t) | Speed: 8 (act: 80%) | HD: 16 | Health: 112-176 | AC/EV: 19/2 | Damage: 50 | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: magic(64) | XP: 638.
15:33 < syllogism> can't tell the difference here
15:33 <+greensnark> @??snapping turtle
15:33 < Gretell> snapping turtle (t) | Speed: 9 (act: 80%) | HD: 10 | Health: 30-90 | AC/EV: 16/5 | Damage: 30 | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: magic(40) | XP: 152.
15:33 <+greensnark> Can you distinguish orc high priests and orc priests there?
15:33 < syllogism> no
15:34 <+sorear> Egads, why is that carpenter biting me
15:34 <+greensnark> Probably need to adjust your term colours
15:34 <+greensnark> Poor Yrrigs :P
15:34 <+greensnark> Or however it was spelled
15:34 < Napkin> I will quit this char because of the terrific brand "of chaos"
15:34 <+greensnark> Eh?
15:34 < Napkin> The glowing arrow of chaos hits you!
15:34 < Napkin> The acid corrodes your +0 golden helmet of intelligence!
15:34 < Napkin> The centaur shoots an arrow of chaos of chaos.
15:34 < Napkin> Strange energies course through your body.
15:34 < Napkin> You feel a little hungry.
15:34 < Napkin> mutation and corrosion?
15:35 <+greensnark> Is that a copy-paste?
15:35 < Napkin> yes
15:35 <+greensnark> "arrow of chaos of chaos" sounds a little repetitive
15:35 <+Zaba_> an arrow of chaos of chaos
15:35 < Napkin> f*** m*
15:35 <+greensnark> I thought due said only javelins and nets are alowed to be randomly chaos branded
15:35 < syllogism> wouldn't it make more sense to quit once you run out of food? :P
15:35 < Napkin> this is most ridiculous "feature" ever
15:35 <+doy> yeah, arrows/bolts of chaos sounds a bit excessive
15:35 < Vandal> Napkin: I didn't like it either :[
15:35 <+sorear> Shouldn't it do other things besides mutate and corrode
15:37 < Vandal> I've had at least one centaur per game with chaos either in his arrows or his bow
15:39 < Vandal> I think the main thing I really don't like about Chaos is that it is a lot more useful in the hands of monsters than it is in yours
15:39 < Napkin> last game I got yellow glow because of chaos brand
15:39 < Napkin> i will just quit every game from now on.
15:39 < syllogism> you do that
15:40 < Napkin> how sucky can it get?
15:40 < Vandal> You're going to kill the monsters in a few turns, it doesn't matter if the long term negative effects hit them
15:40 -!- ais523 [n=ais523@unaffiliated/ais523] has joined ##crawl-dev
15:41 < syllogism> marvinpa splatting in a bit
15:41 < syllogism> dark dark red poison, no healing
15:41 < MarvinPA> :(((
15:41 <+sorear> Vandal: in the original design spec for chaos, chaos branded items evaporated on hitting the floor so the player could not use them *at all*
15:42 < Vandal> Huh.  I thought they existed as a way to keep Xom interested
15:42 <+sorear> Vandal: also, they weren't randomly generated - you could only get them by Xom branding an existing monster's equipment as a mean effect
15:42 < Vandal> ah
15:42 < Vandal> I think that was a better implementation :P
15:42 <+Zaba_> and why can't it be like that now?
15:43 < Vandal> Players don't need it
15:43 < Vandal> I'd personally never use it unless I was following Xom and it was guaranteed to make him happy on a certain frequency of use
15:44 < Vandal> He could always gift it as a means to keep him interested in you when you accidently Haste / Heal the monster
15:54 < MarvinPA> hmm, is it intended that when you fire ammunition from a launcher of venom, the ammunition becomes permanently poison-branded?
15:54 < syllogism> apparently
15:54 < MarvinPA> it doesn't appear to be that way for any other brands
15:54 < MarvinPA> huh, odd
15:54 <+sorear> due thinks it is
15:54 < MarvinPA> and slightly annoying
15:55 < Napkin> sorry, but that was just totally out of line, in my opinion.
15:55 < MarvinPA> when you end up with a stack of some poisoned and some non-poisoned ammo
15:55 <+sorear> (I think he's wrong)
15:55 < MarvinPA> it just sort of forces your ammo to be split into two stacks
15:56 < syllogism> it's annoying and not really useful at all
15:56 < syllogism> but the spell doesn't do it
15:56 < MarvinPA> i suppose you could throw the poisoned stones, once they've been branded :P
15:56 < MarvinPA> but yeah, useless for arrows/bolts
15:57 < MarvinPA> shall i make a FR to change it? i had a bug report half-typed up anyway, i can just change it to be a FR instead :P
15:57 <+sorear> yesss please
15:59 < ais523> hmm, changing to troll leather armour to heal HP, then back to whatever you were wearing before, is really tedious
16:00 < syllogism> should it work like regen rings
16:01 < ais523> I'd prefer 5 to do that sort of thing automatically, but that's just me
16:01 < syllogism> yes that's not going to happen
16:01 < syllogism> it's not really worthwhile anyway
16:01 < ais523> agreed, I didn't think it would
16:02 < syllogism> you are wasting nutrition I think
16:02 < MarvinPA> oh, maybe this is a bug after all? it seems like i can fire "a poisoned +0 arrow of frost", but i thought that the only combo that was meant to be allowed was flame+poison
16:02 < ais523> it is, especially when poisoned
16:02 < MarvinPA> or well, that's a seperate bug i suppose
16:10 < Ashenzari> Ammunition fired from a launcher of venom should not be permanently branded (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=359) by MarvintheParanoidAndroid
16:11  * greensnark is reminded to listed to OK Computer again.
16:11 <+greensnark> *listen
16:13 < MarvinPA> heh
16:16 -!- Cryp71c [n=Cryp71c@173-162-21-124-Nashville.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
16:16 < Cryp71c> ??git
16:16 < Henzell> git[1/1]: git clone git://crawl-ref.git.sourceforge.net/gitroot/crawl-ref/crawl-ref
16:16 < Cryp71c> Morning
16:20 < Ashenzari> Launchers of venom override restrictions on brand combinations (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=360) by MarvintheParanoidAndroid
16:23 < Vandal> ahoy Cryptic
16:24 < Cryp71c> I shall get the fireball bug fixed! (hopefully)
16:25 < Vandal> that would be neat, it killed me last night when Dowan suicide fireballed me
16:25 < Ashenzari> Centaur with arrows of chaos - too chaotic (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=361) by Napkin
16:30 < Xiberia> kobolds with dispersal darts are bad enough
16:30 < cbus> greensnark, the computer sais no
16:32 < Xiberia> oh man
16:32 < Xiberia> no recall undead minions ability is so annoying
16:34 <+doy> is rpois really supposed to be curare-immunity?
16:35 <+sorear> no
16:35 <+doy> i didn't think so, due seems to think it is?
16:41 -!- ogaz [n=chatzill@adsl-99-190-96-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
16:44 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * rc82178a80fe7 /crawl-ref/source/rltiles/ (76 files in 3 dirs): Move undead monsters' tiles into subfolder dc-mon/undead.
16:44 < CIA-81> j-p-e-g * r21bbd0b71258 /crawl-ref/source/ (fight.cc ouch.cc): Make harpies also steal food from the ground at the player's position.
16:45 -!- Siber [n=go@fl-69-68-157-22.sta.embarqhsd.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
16:46 < ais523> oh, thanks whoever invented Sonja, that's one of the more interesting unique fights I've ever had
16:49 < Xiberia> ais523 did she banish you?
16:49 < ais523> no
16:49 < ais523> but all the dodging curare was fun
16:50 < ais523> there were about 4 ugly things around at the time
16:50 < ais523> and she was on Lair:1 so I couldn't use multiple staircases like you normally do
16:51 <+doy> was curare affected by all the changes to needle proc chance?
16:52 < syllogism> not yet
17:01 < Vandal> Are harpies supposed to just destroy food and not actually "steal" it?
17:01 <+sorear> steal is a misnomer
17:01 < ais523> they eat it
17:06 < Ashenzari> Kraken tentacles on land look *really* weird, especially in Tiles (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=362) by jpeg
17:08 <+greensnark> Might as well change kraken tentacles back to water-only, I guess
17:08 <+greensnark> They're not a threat either way
17:08 < cbus> greensnark, if I macro F1 to za and have z macrod to Z the F1 key doesn't want to target .
17:09 < cbus> is that intended behaviour?
17:09 <+greensnark> I have no idea :P
17:10 < cbus> me neither :)
17:10 <+doy> my guess is that recursive macros aren't intended to work
17:10 <+doy> because that seems like it could have all kinds of irritating side effects
17:10 < cbus> yeah
17:10 < cbus> possibility of infinite loops :D
17:10 <+greensnark> Why don't you just change your macro :P
17:10 < cbus> greensnark, I did
17:10 < cbus> greensnark, just wondering if it aws a bug or not :)
17:11 < cbus> what should be changed (according to me atleast) is the way z and Z work :)
17:11 < cbus> merge em
17:11 <+greensnark> If cbus has to ask, it isn't  :P
17:11 < cbus> and don't have that weird press other key to do same thing
17:11 <+doy> cbus: why?
17:11 <+greensnark> Well, I agree with cbus on the z/Z being confusing
17:11 <+greensnark> And 'z' keeps making me make bad moves by having inconsistent prompt behaviour
17:12 <+doy> yeah, i suppose there is that aspect
17:12 < cbus> I ended up macroing z to Z and then remacroing Z to V
17:12 <+greensnark> If you're out of range, z will feed your targeting keystrokes into the main command loop
17:12 <+doy> yeah
17:13 <+greensnark> Particularly nasty if you use target_unshifted_dirs :P
17:13 <+greensnark> Like some people here who I shall not name :P
17:13 < cbus> any nice regexp to search for heavy armour (I usually just use "mail") :)
17:13 <+greensnark> Like me, not to mention any names
17:13 < cbus> greensnark, I'm using the default config nowadays
17:13 < cbus> but unshifted dirs are so much better imo :D
17:13 < cbus> feels just like typing in vim!
17:13 < cbus> I'm gonna change that now maybe, brb
17:14 <+greensnark> What have I done?! :P
17:14 <+Zaba_> cbus, unshifted?
17:14 < cbus> yeah
17:14 <+doy> we should remove that option at this point, people have had plenty of time to adjust d:
17:14 <+greensnark> I will hunt you down to the ends of the earth and make you use emacs if you do that
17:15 <+Zaba_> what option is that?
17:15 <+doy> ouch!
17:15 <+doy> (:
17:15 <+greensnark> Too cruel? :P
17:15 <+Zaba_> or is it heresy even to merely name it?
17:15 < cbus> greensnark, just rape him with a rusty spoon
17:15 <+doy> Zaba_: target_unshifted_dirs
17:15 <+Zaba_> ah
17:16 < cbus> is there any reason to play HOBe instead of MDBe?
17:16 < cbus> trying to figure out a reason why I picked HO :)
17:16 <+doy> cbus: if you want to go maces i guess
17:16 < cbus> I'm not :)
17:16 <+greensnark> Because you like disgustingly easy games
17:16 < cbus> should really books be autopickup for trogites?
17:17 <+greensnark> Obviously
17:17 <+greensnark> Don't you know that when something is forbidden, it becomes impossible to resist investigating it?
17:17 <+doy> probably not, since trog gives more piety for burning books before picking them up
17:17 < ais523> more to the point, blowing them up is fun
17:17 < ais523> and useful in combat
17:17 < ais523> I took out at least three uniques like that
17:17 < syllogism> but the piety is less useful
17:17 <+doy> (i think anyway)
17:17 <+greensnark> Yeah, Trog piety is easy to come by
17:17 < ais523> doy: I thought it was more piety for burning them before IDing it
17:17 <+greensnark> And they're really very useful to get rid of things
17:18 <+doy> ais523: there's that too, but i think there's also more for not picking it up
17:18 <+doy> could be wrong
17:18 <+greensnark> Before you can zerk, at which point it's mostly all academic :P
17:18 < cbus> doy, I thought it was for not reading the books before burning
17:18 < cbus> lower piety for just picking them up seems weird
17:18 <+doy> not sure!
17:18 <+doy> someone could look it up if interested
17:18 <+doy> (:
17:19 < ogaz> Trog likes it when you destroy spellbooks (especially ones you've never read),
17:19 < ogaz> From ?/G
17:19 < cbus> ahh, now I know
17:19 < cbus> I want to go long blades!
17:19 <+greensnark> You want to play a disgustingly easy character, admit it already
17:19 <+greensnark> We read you like a book
17:19 < cbus> any reason to go orcish armour as an orc or is it all dwarven (elven cloak) ? :D
17:20 < cbus> greensnark, yeah!
17:20 <+Zaba_> we see through you like through glass!
17:20 < cbus> greensnark, time to kill these obnoxious new uniques
17:20 < ogaz> there are liches behind it
17:20 <+greensnark> Aaaargh, someone had to mention glass
17:20 < cbus> if I want a hard time I start a game of go
17:20 < cbus> or go back to the tsumego
17:20 < cbus> I was solving
17:20 <+greensnark> Aieee, not liches behind glass!
17:20 <+Zaba_> greensnark, liches behind undiggable glass, don't you like 'em?
17:21 <+greensnark> The worst thing about dpeg making the glass undiggable
17:21 <+greensnark> Was that he added a (greensnark) to the commit comment
17:21 <+doy> wait, which glass is undiggable?
17:21 <+greensnark> And I had people complaining to me about it for weeks
17:21 <+greensnark> doy: The Crypt:5 lich cage glass
17:21 <+doy> seriously?
17:21 <+greensnark> Yes
17:21 <+doy> how does that even make sense?
17:21 <+greensnark> There's still a chance it's diggable, but it's slim
17:21 <+Zaba_> doy, liches fell in through shafts
17:21 < ogaz> he was wondering how greensnark fished them out
17:21 <+greensnark> I don't like it either :/
17:21 <+Zaba_> it's hard to like something like that
17:22 <+Zaba_> but dpeg manages
17:22 <+doy> i mean, how are you supposed to kill them?
17:22 < Vandal> cbus, the saprovore 1 mut isn't bad to have
17:22 < MarvinPA> you just have to grab the loot while getting blasted with summons i think :P
17:22 <+greensnark> Apparently you're supposed to run past the hail of major demons
17:22 <+doy> that's ridiculous
17:22 < cbus> http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=363
17:22 < cbus> check it out and gimme some feedback
17:22 < MarvinPA> that's how i did it last time
17:22 <+Zaba_> doy, complain to... greensnark ;p
17:22 < MarvinPA> although i had a ton of makhleb summons helping me
17:23  * greensnark forces Zaba to use emacs running in GNU screen.
17:23 < ogaz> on the other hand, there's a new crypt:5 layout that looks kind of like cryptofortress so I guess that kind of makes up for it
17:23 <+doy> greensnark: you should revert it with (dpeg)
17:23 < MarvinPA> i just spammed them and grabbed the loot while the demons fought amongst themselves
17:23 <+Zaba_> greensnark, ouch!
17:23 <+greensnark> New crypt?
17:23 <+Zaba_> greensnark, I probably could manage with viper-mode... but... screen! Argh!
17:23 < ogaz> yes
17:23 <+greensnark> Ah, new level by Mu
17:23 <+greensnark> We should really also add bobbens' garden of evil
17:24 <+Zaba_> and I should make a totally evil crypt:5 as well
17:24 <+Zaba_> with some really evil undead mechanics
17:24 <+by> !tell due In l_item_pluses, return 1 after pushing false? (or maybe don't push false?)
17:24 < Henzell> by: OK, I'll let due know.
17:24 <+Zaba_> and an almost guaranteed golden dragon simulacrum if player's name is greensnark and Zaba is still running in screen
17:26 < Ashenzari> thrown items (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=363) by cbus
17:26 < cbus> 2 fedhas altars by D:5
17:26 < cbus> bug?
17:26 <+greensnark> cbus: If you have to ask, it's not :P
17:27 < cbus> greensnark, these overflow vaults are a bug imo :)
17:27 <+greensnark> Opinions differ :P
17:27 <+Zaba_> cbus, and so's chaos brand?
17:28 < cbus> zaba_, dunno, haven't used it
17:28 < cbus> zaba_, not worth risking
17:28 <+Zaba_> cbus, and I believe the HUD not displaying gold by default is a bug too?
17:28 < cbus> zaba_, yeah
17:28 <+Zaba_> cbus, and a boring beetle's also a bug?
17:28 < cbus> yeah
17:28 < cbus> or no
17:28 < cbus> they really are boring :)
17:28 <+Zaba_> I think giant beetles are worse
17:29 < cbus> nah, boring beetles spam messages and screw with autoexplore
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17:30 <+greensnark> Hmm, I should sign up for c-r-discuss while I'm here
17:31 <+Zaba_> cbus, well, they do something
17:33 < ais523> hmm, I got a really weird crash yesterday
17:34 < ais523> a recursive crash, with "Out of memory" as the only clue as to the reason
17:35 < ais523> http://pastebin.ca/raw/1742898
17:36 <+greensnark> Macro code has been a source of problems for a long time
17:36 <+greensnark> Do you have any interesting macros?
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17:37 < ais523> no macros at all
17:37 < ais523> the only unusual thing I was doing was entering a very large number of notes with :
17:37 < ais523> but not nearly enough to run the laptop out of memory; after Crawl crashed I had more than a gigabyte free
17:38 < ais523> (not sure how much was free before that, I didn't check because I didn't know it was about to crash)
17:44 < eith> ooh, berserk nerf, i like it
17:45 <@rax> If any Crawl devs are going to be at PAX East and want to do a roguelikes/replayability panel with me, let me know? 
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17:50 < cbus> would be cool with a diety that gives slaying bonuses
17:50 < mr0t> now *that* idea i really like. could be an existing deity, too
17:50 < ogaz> probably oka
17:50 < Cryp71c> sigh, I hate nationwide.
17:50 < mr0t> one that kinda sucks
17:51 < cbus> mr0t, oka chaneg :)
17:51 < cbus> but thats might
17:51 < mr0t> Cryp71c, you mean the insurer?
17:51 < Cryp71c> mr0t, yes.
17:51 < cbus> and beogh does the samet hough :)
17:51 < mr0t> I'm pretty sure all insurance companies are spawn of the Abyss
17:52 < mr0t> the whole concept of insurance just doesn't really make sense in the framework of capitalism
17:53 < Cryp71c> Talked to the adjuster, they denied a claim which totaled my car just because I rear-ended him, nevermind the fact that he cut across 2 lanes of traffic and whose breaks stopped his car quicker than mine could stop mine..also nevermind the fact that he fled the scene after the wreck.
17:53 < mr0t> aw, jeez
17:53 < cbus>  You hear the crackle of electricity. h - an uncursed glowing double sword of electrocution (weapon) {god gift}
17:53 < cbus> :D
17:53 < mr0t> to be fair, I am pretty sure that the "all rear-end accidents are the rear-enders fault no matter what"
17:54 < ogaz> oh yeah? MY god gave me a meat ration
17:54 < Cryp71c> He even let it slip that if the other driver had stayed around, taken fault for the wreck, they still would've denied my claim...plus I would be responsible for some of his damages.
17:54 < mr0t> is US law, not insurance policy
17:54 < cbus> mr0t, how do you like USA?
17:55 < Cryp71c> mr0t, no..there's no US Law stating that. it IS insurance policy.
17:55 < mr0t> Cryp71c: when I was 14 I got hit by a Ford Explorer crossing a street in front of a metro bus (which blocked our view of each other). The woman's insurance company tried to get me to pay for the damages my flimsy body inflicted on her car
17:55 < mr0t> wow, that's majorly fucked
17:56 < cbus> mr0t, wow
17:56 < Cryp71c> mr0t, yeah that's retarded. That wouldn't fly nowadays, if only for the negative press the insurance company would've gotten for it.
17:56 <@dpeg> back
17:56 < mr0t> cbus: I have mixed feelings, but largely negative. I hope one day I can emigrate to Denmark, since my mom is danish I might have a good shot at residency, esp. if I have an asylum claim
17:56 < cbus> mr0t, sounds nice, I hope you succeed
17:56 < mr0t> thanks!
17:57 < cbus> mr0t, and I hope you survive the cold :D
17:57 < mr0t> part of it was that when I was half-unconscious on the sidewalk I apologized and said it was my fault, or something like that; I have no idea what I said, maybe they made it up
17:57 < mr0t> heh
17:57 < Cryp71c> So, let it be known...Insurance companies aren't looking for who is at fault. They're looking for a loophole that they don't have to pay you through.
17:57 < mr0t> it's actually colder here right now than in Antarctica
17:57 < mr0t> (yeah, it's summer down there, but still)
17:58 <+greensnark> While this is all very fascinating, could we move it to ##crawl-offtopic? :)
17:58 < mr0t> oops. I thought this *was* ##c-o/t
17:58 < cbus> out of windows :(
17:59 < mr0t> well, nothin to add anyway. I gotta go make some coffee
17:59 < Cryp71c> Trying to mpr() beam.foe_ratio info, is there an implicit conversion you guys know of that will work?
18:00 < Cryp71c> since its not a standard object?
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18:04 <+greensnark> Cryp71c: mprf("foe_ratio: %d", beam.foe_ratio);
18:04 <+greensnark> You should also totally use a debug build
18:04 < Cryp71c> greensnark, make debug?
18:04 <+greensnark> It will dump most of this info as diagnostic messages when monsters fire beams and stuff
18:04 <+greensnark> Yes
18:05 <@dpeg> MarvinPA: the flame+poison special combo will be disabled (and hardcoded for Nessos)
18:06 <@dpeg> chaos weapons should go back to the old state, yes
18:06 < MarvinPA> aha okay
18:06 <+doy> what is "the old state"?
18:06 < MarvinPA> i guess the only issue is with poison-branded launchers allowing you to combine brands, then
18:06 <@dpeg> curare should not get blocked by rPois
18:06 < mr0t> the pois part should, not the slow though
18:07 <+doy> and not the asphyx damage part either
18:07 <+greensnark> Isn't that the current state of affairs?
18:07 <+doy> greensnark: i thought so, but due said otherwise
18:07 <+doy> i haven't actually checked
18:08 <+doy> http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=357
18:08 <+greensnark> From a quick look, there seems to be no change to the code
18:09 <+greensnark> PR protects from poisoning, and halves the impact asphyx damage
18:09 < syllogism> checking resistance: flavour=1
18:09 < syllogism> You have difficulty breathing.
18:09 < syllogism> You feel yourself slow down.
18:09 <+doy> alright then
18:10 < Cryp71c> greensnark, under debug, can I still access wizard via & ?
18:10 <+doy> Cryp71c: yes
18:10 <+doy> (also: try it and see)
18:10 < Cryp71c> kthx
18:10 < cbus> -Things that are here: a glowing executioner's axe {god gift}
18:10 < Cryp71c> doy, waiting on the compile and linking.
18:10 < syllogism> cbus: if it's holy wrath you should switch
18:11 < cbus> its elec
18:12 < Cryp71c> ...
18:12 < Cryp71c> doy, getting that same crash from last night.
18:12 <+doy> Cryp71c: yes, i get it too now
18:12 < Cryp71c> when I try to set the char level or spawn a creature by name
18:12 < mr0t> is there any option in the current trunk binary that lets you fix the # of rows/columns? when I play fullscreen, the messages are all way at the bottom of the screen
18:12 < Cryp71c> have you gotten any workaround for it?
18:12 <+doy> Cryp71c: git revert 4294ce7
18:12 < syllogism> not crashing here
18:12 < mr0t> which is kinda weird because I've played other crawl binaries and not had that problem
18:13 < mr0t> there are so many friggin options, I couldn't find anything that looked promising
18:13 <+doy> mr0t: the message area stuff has been through a bunch of changes lately
18:13 <+doy> there should be an option for that, but not sure if it's documented yet
18:13 <+doy> by would know, when he comes back around
18:14 < mr0t> ok, it's not that big a deal, i don't mind that much playing windowed
18:14 < Cryp71c> I had to leave last night before I had a response, what's the protocol with writing notes on bug reports on mantis, eg notes for development use (relevant function names, line numbers, possible fixes that are unimplemented/tested, etc.) ?
18:14 <+doy> Cryp71c: what do you mean?
18:14 < mr0t> maybe when I move to .dk I will have a better connect to CDO :p
18:15 <+sorear> Cryp71c: DO IT RIGHT NOW
18:15 < syllogism> &^X is a bit too spammy in the debug build :P
18:15 <+doy> syllogism: everything is a bit too spammy in the debug build d:
18:15 <+sorear> Cryp71c: keeping notes to yourself and not on mantis is the second worst thing you can do right now after outright sabotage
18:15 <+doy> sorear: wow, chill out
18:15 <+doy> (:
18:15 < Cryp71c> sorear, lol, k. I'll be sure to be verbose in note writing
18:16 < cbus> curare seems bugged
18:16 <+doy> you get too worked up about these things d:
18:16 < cbus>  Sonja shoots a curare-tipped needle. The curare-tipped needle hits you!
18:16 < cbus> and nothing
18:16 <+sorear> don't be too spammy, but, if you think you might not be able to finish, absolutely make sure we know where you left off
18:16 <+doy> cbus: yeah, there's a bug report for that already
18:16 < cbus> ahh now it works
18:16 < cbus> just not 100%
18:17 <+doy> probably something got inadvertently changed when messing with the new needles
18:17 < cbus> yeah
18:17 < cbus> probably "resistance" depending on throwing skill
18:18 <+doy> on the other hand, it might be more reasonable for curare to go through those same codepaths (and so not trigger every time)
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18:18 <+doy> shrug
18:19 < cbus> doy, yeah, you have needles of slowing too, feels like a clone (almost)
18:19 <+doy> yeah
18:19 <+doy> if needles of slowing require an hd save but curare needles don't, and curare also does extra damage and poison
18:19 <+doy> seems like it doesn't really fit
18:20 < syllogism> well you'll have a rather limited supply of needles generally
18:20 <+doy> sure
18:20 <+doy> guess i don't know what the spawn rate for the new needles are
18:20 < syllogism> but it's quite likely curare will get the same hd save
18:20 < syllogism> due just didn't want to change it before further discussion
18:20 < syllogism> but dpeg seemed to be for it
18:21 <+doy> well, it seems to be already in(:
18:21 <+doy> (possibly by accident)
18:21 < syllogism> not for monsters at least, is it
18:21 < Cryp71c> is there a way to influence a monster to do a particular action (as if the monster had chosen it as a possible action)?
18:21 < syllogism> I don't know if it ever was guaranteed to affect the player
18:21 < Twinge> It would make sense if they all used a similar formula, probably.  Right now poison needles are based on the target's AC, while the new needles are all based on your skill and the target's HD
18:21 <+doy> syllogism: really?
18:22 <+doy> i thought it was
18:22 <+doy> Twinge: yes
18:22 < Cryp71c> @??Deep elf mage
18:22 < Gretell> deep elf mage (e) | Speed: 10 | HD: 4 | Health: 12-24 | AC/EV: 0/13 | Damage: 5 | Flags: spellcaster | Res: magic(32) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 88 | Sp: b.venom, mystic blast, invisibility, confuse, slow, teleport self / magic dart, paralyse, haste, b.lightning, confuse, teleport self / paralyse, crystal spear, blink, b.fire, b.cold, minor healing / paralyse, throw flame, invisibility, teleport other, fi
18:23 < syllogism> the new formula would probably make poison needles too good early game as low hd monsters dont get to resist at all
18:25 < Twinge> Yeah.  The other needles are rarer while at the same time it was intended for unskilled players to have a chance to use them, if they happened upon them, on up to ogres with halfway decent chances.  The poison ones are more common and shouldn't be exactly the same.  
18:25 <+doy> that's only an issue because you can start with poison needles
18:26 <+doy> but yeah, not sure if there's a reasonable fix
18:26 < Cryp71c> @??deep elf sorcerer
18:26 < Gretell> deep elf sorcerer (e) | Speed: 10 | HD: 14 | Health: 42-84 | AC/EV: 0/13 | Damage: 12 | Flags: evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: magic(112) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 1589 | Sp: b.draining, banishment, haste, demon, hellfire, teleport self.
18:26 < cbus> yay instadeath vault in lair :D
18:26 < cbus> (like 5 locked in centaurs just waiting for autoexplore to get in range)
18:26 < cbus> and then...
18:27 < cbus> http://haxxor.se/~cbus/1254593569212.png
18:27 <+doy> maybe assassins should start with their needle stack spread among 1d3 random types of needles or so
18:27 <+sorear> good idea
18:27 <+doy> cbus: i notice you didn't die
18:27 <+doy> d:
18:27 < cbus> sleeping works good with As btw, (stabbing)
18:27 < cbus> doy, some cloud or something blockde the sight of
18:27 <+sorear> paralysis is strictly better than sleeping
18:28 <+sorear> as of 0.5
18:28 < cbus> hmm, dinner
18:29 < cbus> sorear, you get stab every turn?
18:29 <+sorear> yes
18:29 < cbus> ahh cool
18:29 <+sorear> full-strength stab too
18:29 < cbus> and how is the paralysis replacement (for stalkers)?
18:29 <+sorear> never tried it
18:29 < cbus> me neither, seemed like a nerf (and I didn't use paralysis that much either when it was in the book)
18:30 <+doy> the spell is basically the same thing as paralyze now, except you don't get stab chances, and i think it might increase their ac a little bit
18:31 < ogaz> ??petrify
18:31 < Henzell> petrify[1/3]: Petrification works in two stages. First the monster is slowed down in all of its actions and cannot move away (petrifying), and when that times out it remains properly petrified (no movement or actions). The second part is similar to paralysis, except that insubstantial monsters can't be affected and that all damage is drastically reduced.
18:31 < Cryp71c> ??dispell
18:31 < Henzell> I don't have a page labeled dispell in my learndb.
18:31 < Cryp71c> ??dispel undead
18:31 < Henzell> dispel undead[1/1]: Deals very high damage to undead. Extremely useful vs. liches, mummies, various other things, and (most importantly for early necros) player ghosts. Not useful vs. anything not undead. If you are an undead or lich-form player, take care around necromancer ghosts, pan lords, gloorx vloq, and shadow fiends.
18:31 < syllogism> hasted you are pretty much guaranteed to kill cerebov once the needle works
18:32 <+sorear> let me find an interesting thing from the 0.1 release
18:33 <+sorear> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.roguelike.misc/msg/ba29913cc407412c  - this is extremely apropos right now
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18:51 < Cryp71c> Vandal, what creature did you experience the fireball under?
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19:23 <@dpeg> rax: Hi there. Sorry, wrong continent again for me. Thanks for calling!
19:24 < Cryp71c> sorear, I have debug info for hellfire vs fireball as casted by a deep elf sorcerer vs deep elf mage (respsectively)
19:24 < Cryp71c> The sorcerer won't cast hellfire if he's within the dmg range
19:24 < Cryp71c> but the mage does, does anything jump out at you between the two: http://paste2.org/p/600232
19:25 < Cryp71c> foe_ratio is 60 for fireball, I bumped it up to 80 (same as hellfire) and it still does it.
19:25 <@dpeg> liches behind glass are good, because liches are an endangered species
19:26 <+doy> @??deep elf mage
19:26 < Gretell> deep elf mage (e) | Speed: 10 | HD: 4 | Health: 12-24 | AC/EV: 0/13 | Damage: 5 | Flags: spellcaster | Res: magic(32) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 88 | Sp: b.venom, mystic blast, invisibility, confuse, slow, teleport self / magic dart, paralyse, haste, b.lightning, confuse, teleport self / paralyse, crystal spear, blink, b.fire, b.cold, minor healing / paralyse, throw flame, invisibility, teleport other, fi
19:26 <@dpeg> also, the usual rule of oklobs apply: all the bad rep means I got something right.
19:26 <+Zaba> dpeg, but it's bad when you can't dig the glass!
19:26 <+doy> @??deep elf sorcerer
19:26 < Gretell> deep elf sorcerer (e) | Speed: 10 | HD: 14 | Health: 42-84 | AC/EV: 0/13 | Damage: 12 | Flags: evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: magic(112) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 1589 | Sp: b.draining, banishment, haste, demon, hellfire, teleport self.
19:26 <+doy> dpeg: you can kill oklobs d:
19:26 <+Zaba> @??deep elf conjurer
19:26 < Gretell> deep elf conjurer (e) | Speed: 10 | HD: 6 | Health: 18-36 | AC/EV: 0/13 | Damage: 5 | Flags: evil, spellcaster | Res: magic(48) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 208 | Sp: b.fire, b.cold, cantrip, b.lightning, b.draining, teleport self / sticky flame, mystic blast, invisibility, stone arrow, b.draining, teleport self.
19:27 <+doy> making the liches unkillable just means you have to deal with like 20 no-xp major demons to even try to get anything
19:27 < syllogism> @?? statue
19:27 < Gretell> statue (8) | Speed: 10 | HD: 8 | Health: 70 | AC/EV: 12/1 | Damage: 20 | Flags: non-living | Res: magic(immune), fire, cold, elec++, poison | XP: 561.
19:27  * dpeg is surrounded by wimps but keeps standing
19:28 <+by> @?? brown ugly thing
19:28 < Gretell> unknown monster: "brown ugly thing"
19:28 <+by> @??ugly thing
19:28 < Gretell> white ugly thing (u) | Speed: 11 (act: 110%) | HD: 8 | Health: 31-58 | AC/EV: 2/9 | Damage: 12(cold) | Flags: amphibious | Res: magic(32), cold | Chunks: mutagenic | XP: 341.
19:28 <+doy> also, it means that branch end has both a decent amount less loot and a significant amount less xp than all the others
19:28 <+by> are they meant to be speed 11?
19:30 <+greensnark> I don't mind variance in branch end loot/xp
19:30 <+sorear> by: yes
19:30 <+greensnark> But I don't find running past the liches much fun :P
19:30 <+greensnark> It can be done pretty safely if you know what you're doing
19:30 <+greensnark> Haste, go in, apport, get out
19:30 <@dpeg> doy: loot is the same
19:31 <+sorear> by: you could scum ugly things into a color of your choice by leading a pack of them in circles, if you were as fast as them
19:31 <+sorear> by: so, when I made them fixed speed, I gave them slightly fast movement
19:31 <+doy> hmmm, thought it was less, been a while since i looked at it though
19:31 <@dpeg> sorear: yes, that was good
19:31  * greensnark finally clued in to the fact that sirens are placed specially on water squares.
19:31 <+greensnark> I was wondering why they're so much more common :P
19:31 <@dpeg> doy: I think that some other Crypt end places irresponsible amounts of loot
19:32 < syllogism> are harpies too
19:32 <+doy> dpeg: probably true(:
19:32 <+doy> church of pain used to be really ridiculous about that
19:32 <+doy> but it got toned down
19:32 <@dpeg> yes
19:32 <+greensnark> I'd take church of pain with zero loot over the liches in glass :P
19:33 <+greensnark> It's not about the loot, it's just that the liches-in-glass is an interesting-once gimmick level
19:33 <@dpeg> When I made the much-hated two-lich Crypt ending, I used the same amount of loot as bobbens had for the very first ending. But later, we got more endings and I didn't compare loot, a bad oversight.
19:33 <@dpeg> greensnark: okay, I will remove the vault
19:34 <+greensnark> Please don't hate me, I really think it's for the best :)
19:34 <@dpeg> hate is an understatement
19:34 <+sorear> You have your chronology backward
19:34 < Mu_> mine has a lot of loot :s
19:34 <+sorear> Caged liches was #3, not #2
19:34 < syllogism> if it helps, i would run through any lich-in-glass gauntlet for the loot :P
19:34  * greensnark sends dpeg roses, chocolates, and testudines.
19:35 <+doy> maybe the lich in glass one should be a crypt-specific minivault instead
19:35 <+doy> with less loot
19:35 <+sorear> and we've only gotten one new ending since them
19:35 < syllogism> cbus was right next to the lab exit and teleported on purpose :P
19:35 <+doy> it always did feel a little strange when compared to the rest of the huge ending vaults
19:35 < Cryp71c> doy, can I specify a spellbook to load from when i spawn a particular monster?
19:35 <+greensnark> cbus does weird things in labs :P
19:35 <+doy> Cryp71c: yes, but don't remember how
19:35 < Cryp71c> sorear, ?
19:35 <+doy> someone around here would know though
19:35 < Cryp71c> you know?
19:36 <+sorear> &M human spells:fireball
19:36 < Cryp71c> ..?wha?
19:36 <+sorear> you can't specify a spellbook
19:36 < Cryp71c> oh, but I can specify spells?
19:36 <+sorear> tou can only specify a list of spells
19:36 <+sorear> yes
19:36 < CIA-81> dpeg * rdd83d4d2be38 /crawl-ref/source/dat/crypt.des: Remove my Crypt:5 vault (glassed liches).
19:36 <@dpeg> doy: I made it precisely because I didn't like the huge vaults.
19:36 < Cryp71c> that'll do pig, that'll do.
19:36 <@dpeg> This is not my game anymore :(
19:36 <+sorear> ...
19:36 <+sorear> what?
19:37 < Cryp71c> what what?
19:37 <+sorear> *cracks knuckles*
19:37 <+sorear> Who is the blackmailer
19:37 < Cryp71c> sorear, are you talking to me?
19:37 < Cryp71c> I'm confuzzled
19:37 <+doy> dpeg: ah, didn't realize that
19:38 <@dpeg> doy: it is not that they are too bad but I like small, restricted vaults better
19:38 < Cryp71c> hrm, how can I keep a monster from moving?
19:38 < Cryp71c> without paralyzing him
19:38 < syllogism> monsters aren't getting their right hp max when you use "&M foo hd:27 :(
19:38 <+sorear> Cryp71c: no, talking to dpeg
19:38 < Cryp71c> sorear, kthx
19:38 <@dpeg> sorear: blackmailer?
19:39 <@dpeg> I succumbed to the pressure.
19:39 <+sorear> :(
19:39 <@dpeg> all complaints, no support :/
19:39 <@dpeg> gotta keep going at the amulets wiki
19:39 < MarvinPA> i've done it once and i didn't mind it! :P
19:39 <@dpeg> MarvinPA: part of greensnark's complain is ONE-trick pony
19:39 <+doy> i do think that vault would be good somewhere, shouldn't just get rid of it
19:40 < MarvinPA> heh
19:40 < MarvinPA> well i've done it twice, once with diggable walls and once without
19:40 <+by> they're not diggable anymore?
19:40 < MarvinPA> it seems like an interesting challenge, 
19:40 <@dpeg> doy: I am angry. When I angry, I have been known to do extreme things, way beyond deleting vaults.
19:40 < Twinge> Heh.  I've only been to Crypt:5 once, and I think it was that vault.  I think I was able to dig them out of the glass though?  I forget, been a while.
19:41 <+by> personally, all of the crypt endings lose appeal after you've seen them a few times
19:41 < Twinge> Like, the locked in liches seems pretty reasonable if they can be dug out with either wands of digging or destructioon.  But if you don't also want that to apply to ALL glass walls it'd be awkward.
19:41 <@dpeg> by: well, bobbens has one that is heavily randomised
19:41 <+doy> by: well, that's most vaults in general
19:41 < Cryp71c> @??human
19:41 < Gretell> human (@) | Speed: 10 | HD: 5 | Health: 15-40 | AC/EV: 2/12 | Damage: 10 | Res: magic(20) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: 264.
19:41 <@dpeg> but yes, that is often true
19:43 < cbus> greensnark, weird things
19:43 < cbus> ?
19:43 < Cryp71c> Does anyone know *precisely* what foe_ratio is used for? I read a brief snippet which gave an overview but it didn't prove very enlightening
19:43 < cbus> greensnark, the labyrinth was only solvable from one direction it seemed
19:43 < cbus> so instead of running around for 1h I teleported
19:43 < cbus> thats the last one I'm entering
19:43 < cbus> to much hassle for too little loot
19:44 <+Zaba> dpeg, I like small vaults more, too!
19:44 <+doy> cbus: d:
19:44 < syllogism> it takes like a minute and you get tons of loot :P
19:44 <+doy> what syllogism said
19:44 < syllogism> I did 5 labs last game
19:44 <+doy> labs never take me more than a couple minutes
19:44 <+Zaba> dpeg, just not when they've got those buggers that spam demons at me and I don't even have a chance to kill them
19:44 <+doy> and i barely even try
19:44 <@dpeg> syllogism: 4.0.0b26 labs too 30 seconds!
19:44 <+doy> yes, they are more challenging than old labs at least
19:44 <+doy> (:
19:45 <+doy> but not to the point of being irritating
19:45 < syllogism> yes, I'd still like to see a screenshot of a 4.1 lab, they seemed large but probably werent
19:45 < Twinge> Just loosely brainstorming here, but there could be a different type of glass wall that is pretty fragile, and can always be destroyed with digging/destruction (and possibly other things).  Then that type of wall could be used for places like dpeg's C5 vault, so the liches would still be somewhat awkward and a pain to get to, but still reachable and killable.
19:45 < syllogism> you just couldnt tell if you were making any progress
19:45 <+doy> Twinge: this already exists
19:45 <+doy> and is what that vault used to use
19:45 <+doy> the change to undiggable was deliberate
19:45 < Twinge> Mm.
19:45 <+by> somebody was going to do a new-lab autosolver
19:45 <@dpeg> by: what?
19:46 <+Zaba> that liches behind glass vault used to always had diggable glass and it was fine then
19:46 < Twinge> doy: Is it obvious the difference between the two glass walls though?  Heh.
19:46 <+by> well, at least thinking about (here or on ##crawl)
19:46 <+doy> i'm sure it would be possible, but i don't think the results would be any better than a human doing it
19:46 < cbus> by, nice!
19:46 < cbus> much less hassle :)
19:46 <+doy> Twinge: 'transparent rock' vs 'transparent stone' i think
19:46 < Twinge> Ah.
19:46 < cbus> labyrinths aren't exactly fun, its just farming gear
19:46 <+by> I like labyrinths
19:46 < syllogism> I like them
19:46 <+doy> i like labyrinths
19:46 < Twinge> But yes, is it a major issue to just revert the walls to diggable versus killing the whole vault?
19:46 <@dpeg> Zaba: you are a dev. If you want to shoulder the responsibility, add the vaults (and tweak as much as you can/like before). It is not my vault anymore.
19:47 <@dpeg> btw, it is the second vault is truly lose (apart from deleting some stupid entry vaults); the other one was the series of Elf endings
19:47 <+doy> at the very least we shouldn't toss that vault entirely
19:48 < syllogism> I remember those elf endings, what was wrong about them?
19:48 <@dpeg> doy: you also have commit rights
19:48 <@dpeg> syllogism: greensnark complained :)
19:48 <+doy> syllogism: i remember there being valid arguments against them, but i don't remember what they were anymore
19:48 <+greensnark> I was passing along user complaints about having to search all over the level :)
19:48 <@dpeg> syllogism: they used the fact that some loot was not accessible via secret doors and we had players who would keep searching until they drop
19:49 <@dpeg> this is not fun but it's entirely their fault
19:49 <@dpeg> the series had some cool ideas
19:49 <@dpeg> would be even better now, with Mapping working better
19:49 <+doy> we could restore those old vaults and tweak them up to make that not an issue
19:50 <@dpeg> doy: they're buried in the svn somewhere, good luck!
19:50 <+doy> we really shouldn't be tossing out branch end vaults, we need more of them, not less
19:50 <+doy> (:
19:50 <+doy> dpeg: they're buried in git now, which is much easier to manage(:
19:50 <@dpeg> doy: well, I noted this when doing vaults (entry and ends) alongside with Erik: there is a natural trend to make them edgier and edgier.
19:51 <@dpeg> doy: well, if you have a look at them and want to reinstate them, I surely wouldn't complain
19:51 <+doy> i'll see what i can do this weekend
19:51 < Twinge> I can see that. "XX has already been done, so I'll have to kick it up a notch!"
19:51 <@dpeg> yes
19:51 <@dpeg> and (ab)using more tricks etc.
19:52 <+doy> i also want to see about possibly making a new map layout
19:52 <@dpeg> exactly the same happens with the new lua stuff
19:52 <+doy> but that might be more work
19:52 < Mu_> is it better to resist using lua stuff in vaults ?
19:52 <@dpeg> re: liches in glass. It occurred to me that the glass could disintegrate, too (when the player is near).
19:52 <+doy> Mu_: for the majority of vaults, yes
19:52 <@dpeg> Mu_: no, of course not.
19:52 <@dpeg> Mu_: but you can see how the envelope is pushed time and again :)
19:53 <+doy> Mu_: it's fun once in a while, but extra rules and custom things just end up getting confusing if they're everywhere
19:53 <@dpeg> doy: yes.
19:53 < Mu_> well we got so many new things to play with lately :s
19:53 <+Zaba> elf_hall_rogue_* are said elf:7 endings that were removed?
19:53 <+doy> (:
19:53 <@dpeg> Zaba: yes
19:53 <@dpeg> But using fancy stuff in portal vaults is encouraged -- it is the equivalen to special moves/speech for uniques.
19:53 <+doy> like the ancient champions vault - it's really cool (from what i've seen), but very very few vaults should have that level of complexity
19:53 <+doy> (:
19:54 < Mu_> ;-)
19:54 <@dpeg> doy: yes. due is generally very sane and knows "less is more" by heart. But when it comes to vaults, he is a loose nut. Which I like :)
19:54 <@dpeg> same for Mu, of course =)
19:54 <+Zaba> dpeg, it has loot in areas one has to dig to
19:54 <@dpeg> Zaba: I know that.
19:54 <+greensnark> Ancient champions vault? Where's that?
19:55 <+Zaba> hm, I thought I saw you mention secret doors.
19:55 <@dpeg> there are also secret doors
19:55 < syllogism> float.des
19:55 < Mu_> greensnark: bottom vault in float.des
19:55 <@dpeg> and there is inaccessible loot (only a bit, and you can get out) -- I'd do it much better if I made them now
19:56 <+greensnark> Oh, I'm obviously not going far enough in the game to see all the cool stuff
19:56 <+greensnark> I haven't seen half the vaults in float.des
19:56 < syllogism> I didn't even get a wizlab last game :(
19:56 <+by> I think using Lua to make vaults more random is great; I'm less enthusiastic about Lua interactivity features in vaults
19:56  * doy agrees with by
19:57 <@dpeg> by: yes
19:57 <@dpeg> by: again, portal vaults are excempt (for me at least)
19:57 <@dpeg> greensnark: have you seen a ziggurat?
19:58 <+doy> dpeg: what do you think about a level layout that looks something like this? http://doom.chaosforge.org/images/5.png
19:58 <@dpeg> They were your gift to 0.5 (just as Shoals are to 0.6) and they seem to work astonishingly well, given that they're not really finished.
19:58 <+greensnark> Also: I'd like to apologise for calling the Crypt glass ending a one-time gimmick, that was exaggerating to try and make a point.
19:58 <+Zaba> personally I think Tomb, being all themed about confusing layouts and mysteriousness, could benefit from some lua things, but I'm not quite sure how exactly.
19:58 <+greensnark> dpeg: I've never been in a ziggurat in a real game :/
19:58 <@dpeg> me neither
19:59 <+greensnark> But I did run into some low-level ziggurat entrances
19:59 <@dpeg> greensnark: well, it is a one trick pony, but then, many vaults are
19:59 <+greensnark> dpeg: True, vaults are probably most interesting the first time because after that you remember the details
19:59 <+by> my only ziggurat was on a speed-run
19:59 <@dpeg> by: how sad
20:00 <@dpeg> doy: how would you describe it? "disrupted rooms?"
20:00 <+by> (the only one I entered)
20:00 <@dpeg> by: oh, cool then
20:00 <@dpeg> was it worth it?
20:00 <@dpeg> greensnark: we are randomising things so much
20:00 <+doy> dpeg: the key point being rooms that are smaller than your los
20:00 < syllogism> Yavar found turtles
20:00 <+doy> dpeg: and no corridors
20:00 <@dpeg> still not enough, I guess
20:00 < syllogism> :turtle sighted:
20:00 <+doy> dpeg: i think it would be cool as a layout for crypt
20:01 <+by> dpeg: don't really remember, but I don't think it was a mistake
20:01 <@dpeg> doy: yes, I agree
20:01 <@dpeg> there is some layout stuff that should be done
20:02 <@dpeg> for example, doing something about rooms+corridors in Lair: either remove, or explain why it's there
20:02 <+doy> yes
20:02 <+greensnark> Yes, lair rooms are pretty odd-looking
20:02 <+Zaba> dpeg, what about snake?
20:02 <@dpeg> also, I hate that so many layouts are rectangular, they should have smoothed corners and broken boundaries
20:02 <+doy> dpeg: also yes
20:02 <@dpeg> Zaba: well, that has at least intelligent inhabitants, so it is slightly less bad
20:03 <+doy> swamp especially
20:03 -!- Mu_ [i=Mu@cpc14-live9-0-0-cust109.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place."]
20:03 <+greensnark> Lair has the spotty layout, but it could probably be tweaked to make it more different from Orc and the rooms layout reduced
20:03 <+doy> should not be rectangular
20:03 <@dpeg> greensnark: I was suggesting to just scrap them. But then borsuk pointed out that doors work best there and someone else (doy?) pointed out that Lair could be formerly civilised, now wild.
20:03 <+doy> greensnark: something that might work for lair would be to keep the rooms layout, but go through and remove maybe 5-10% of the wall tiles
20:03 <+doy> dpeg: i think that was due's suggestion
20:03  * greensnark thinks most branches should have some distinctive layout gen.
20:03 <@dpeg> doy: yes, Swamp is bad with the rectangle frame.
20:03 <@dpeg> greensnark: sure
20:04 <+greensnark> doy: Yes, a runed level variant would also work
20:04 <+greensnark> Er, ruined
20:04 <@dpeg> glowing levels!
20:04 <+greensnark> glistering levels
20:04 <+doy> the 'ruins' thing would fit, and would allow an explanation of keeping doors, etc
20:04 <@dpeg> You enter a distressingly furry level.
20:04 <+doy> heh
20:04 <@dpeg> doy: yes
20:04 <@dpeg> but if we do this, we should provide the ruins
20:04 <+greensnark> The nice thing about hacking level generation is that it's a lot of fun
20:04 <@dpeg> not much is needed for story telling
20:05 <+doy> dpeg: sure
20:05 <@dpeg> I think there should be a way to make doors.
20:05 <+Zaba> ruins is easy, take, say, lemuel's castle, and do a subst to remove the stone walls with an appropriate chance..
20:05 <@dpeg> proposed it as a misc item on the wiki
20:05 <@dpeg> Zaba: we want better ruins
20:05 <@dpeg> with plants crackign up the walls etc.
20:06 <@dpeg> but yes, some vaults would be a good start
20:06 <+doy> i think starting with the ruins layout, modified from the normal rooms and corridors one would be a good start
20:06 <+doy> and something to build a theme around
20:06 <+doy> for people to start making vaults
20:07 <+greensnark> Agreed
20:07 <@dpeg> doy: yes
20:07 <@dpeg> but, as we so often get distracted here: not for 0.6
20:07 <+doy> yes
20:07 <+doy> (:
20:07 <@dpeg> I am preparing another "road to 0.6" mail, now that RC and Shoals are essentially taken care of
20:08 <+greensnark> It shouldn't hold back 0.6, but if someone provides a patch!
20:08 <+greensnark> Like doy, say, not to mention any names
20:08 <+greensnark> :)
20:08 <+doy> do we have any branch overhauls targeted for 0.7 at the moment?
20:08 <+doy> greensnark: (:
20:08 <+greensnark> doy: Level-gen hacking is <3
20:08 <+Zaba> so, will shoals make it to 0.6?
20:08 <+doy> greensnark: yeah, it looks entertaining
20:08 <+doy> Zaba: yes
20:08 <+Zaba> nice
20:08 <+doy> shoals are basically complete at this point
20:08 <+doy> just need a bit of playtesting for balance
20:09 <@dpeg> doy: for 0.7? I think jpeg really like the new concept of Hive.
20:09 <+doy> dpeg: i liked that too(:
20:09 <@dpeg> And we should do Swamp, there are enough ideas.
20:09 <+doy> haven't been keeping up on the swamp discussions thoguh
20:09 <@dpeg> doy: it's a mess
20:10 <@dpeg> but it can be sorted out
20:10 <+doy> yeah
20:10 <+Zaba> hm.
20:10 <@dpeg> just needs goodwill, some thought and determination to make decisions
20:10 <+by> just removing item generation seemed like a safe first step, but it seems a complete solution is desired?
20:10 <+Zaba> somehow, neither walls nor open sea seem to be good for level boundaries in swamp, at least to me.
20:11 <+doy> Zaba: trees would work i think
20:11 <+greensnark> We could do a pratchett and create a new feature called MMBS
20:11 <+greensnark> "Miles and Miles of Bloody Swamp" :)
20:11 < cbus> greensnark, already have that ;D
20:11 <+Zaba> lol
20:11 < cbus> greensnark, have dragons that when their digestive system fail explode
20:11 < cbus> :D
20:12 <+greensnark> Swamp dragons could explode when killed, yeah :P
20:12 <+Zaba> cbus, just when that? They explode anytime..
20:12 <@dpeg> by: yes
20:12 < cbus> don't remember what book that happens in thoug h:(
20:12 <@dpeg> by: better wait and come with a complete approach
20:12 <+greensnark> Men at Arms features exploding dragons as a prominent plot point
20:12 < cbus> greensnark, yeah thats the one I think :)
20:12 <+doy> in fact
20:13 <@dpeg> Zaba: rock is okay, the boundaries should just be fragmented
20:13 <+doy> i wonder if making swamp use trees for all walls would be reasonable
20:13 <+doy> that could be a cool effect
20:13 <@dpeg> doy: true
20:13 <+doy> and would seem more swampy
20:13 <+Zaba> doy, provided it would have trees on the level itself as well, it would look well
20:13 <+doy> Zaba: yeah
20:13 <+doy> hmmm
20:14 <+doy> the level layout could be clear in the middle, with trees getting randomly more dense as you move outward
20:14 <+Zaba> aren't swamp levels created in some odd way right now? Like, generating a normal level and then replacing all floor and walls with water and walls?
20:14 <+Zaba> and floor
20:14 <+doy> this would solve the level border issue too
20:14 <@dpeg> doy: awesome
20:14 <+Zaba> doy, that'd be great
20:14 <@dpeg> doy: could also have some rock parts thrown in 
20:14 <+doy> dpeg: sure
20:14 <+greensnark> Zaba: Yep, Swamp gen is weird
20:14 <@dpeg> and them smooth transitions <3
20:14 <@dpeg> but, back to 0.6
20:14 <+doy> hehe
20:15 <@dpeg> we need to do something about message spam, which is why I dedicated a wiki page to the issue
20:15 <+doy> i'll at least start a branch for new level/branch layouts this weekend
20:15 <+doy> and we can decide about what to merge back in later
20:15 <+greensnark> Is this message spam thing a 0.6 target?
20:15 <+doy> yes
20:15 <+greensnark> Ah, nice
20:15 <@dpeg> http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:messagespam
20:16 <+doy> hunters are pretty unplayable at the moment
20:16 <@dpeg> doy: well, I play them. But it hurts, yes.
20:16 <@dpeg> !whereis dpeg
20:16 < Henzell> 839. dpeg the Spear-Bearer (L11 MfHu), worshipper of Fedhas, slain by a hill giant (a +0,+0 giant club) on D:11 on 2010-01-07, with 8243 points after 12134 turns and 1:22:00.
20:16 <+greensnark> I was about to mention that ^G with all branches discovered always forces a -more-, but hunters are a bigger issue :)
20:16 <@dpeg> @whereis dpeg
20:16 < Gretell> dpeg the Chopper (L6 HOHu), a worshipper of Yredelemnul, is currently on D:4 after 4899 turns.
20:16 <+doy> greensnark: add it to the wiki page!
20:16 <@dpeg> please add to the page, I surely forgot stuff
20:17 <+greensnark> Will do
20:17 <+doy> there are a bunch of prompts that were assuming a bigger message area, i think we lost a line when we made that delay_message_clear change
20:17 <+doy> and something should be done about those
20:18 <+doy> i know the wizmode item creation prompt was like that too, but that may have been fixed already
20:19 <@dpeg> doy: yes
20:19 <@dpeg> I am happy with the new top line in X, but it could still be improved (sorting and spacing)
20:19 <@dpeg> and henryci will do the new Ctrl-O :)
20:19 <+greensnark> Hm, actually it looks fixed in latest master
20:19 <@dpeg> so that's interface candy for the players
20:19 <+doy> yeah, looking forward to the new ^O screen
20:19 <+doy> (:
20:20 <@dpeg> who will forget all the nerfs when they see "interface candy! new class!! new branch!!!"
20:20 <+doy> hehe
20:20 <+greensnark> Players never forgive the nerfs :P
20:21 -!- Eifel [n=Eifel@dslb-084-063-009-123.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Connection timed out]
20:22 <+doy> how's jivya going, by the way?
20:22 <@dpeg> greensnark: well, we get new players who don't know about the golden past
20:22 <+doy> i don't hear anything about that at all
20:22 <+doy> like ever
20:22 <@dpeg> doy: oh, there are many comments
20:22 <+greensnark> doy: Apparently lots of players can't even spell the name right :)
20:22 <@dpeg> J has a wiki page =)
20:22 <+doy> ah, i only vaguely keep up with the wiki
20:22 <+doy> it's way too busy
20:24 <@dpeg> doy: still better than the SF tracker, imo
20:24 <+doy> dpeg: definitely, because i can ignore it(:
20:25 <@dpeg> for example
20:25 <+doy> when every random brainstorm is a tracker ticket, that's not really possible
20:25 <@dpeg> and if you want to read something, the presentation is much, much better
20:25 <+doy> yes
20:25 <+doy> but having all that stuff on the wiki means that i actually can keep up with everything on mantis
20:25 <+doy> which is great
20:26 <+doy> which wasn't really the case on sf
20:27 <@dpeg> yes, same for me, only the other way around
20:27 < Ashenzari> Remove the Stone of Earth Elementals, Fan, Lamp (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=364) by nrook
20:27 <+doy> (:
20:27 <@dpeg> wow
20:27 <@dpeg> something drastic
20:27  * doy agrees
20:27 < syllogism> -1
20:27 <@dpeg> well, there are ideas for how to repair them
20:27 < syllogism> yes
20:27 <+doy> i suppose
20:27 <@dpeg> http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:item:misc
20:28 < syllogism> also the lamp isn't broken
20:28 <+doy> they should be nerfed for now, probably
20:28 <@dpeg> just a matter or priorities and patches
20:28 < nrook> I made a proposal because while I have seen many ways to make them non-broken, I have not yet seen any that make them non-boring
20:28 <@dpeg> nrook: did you see my wiki page?
20:28 <+doy> i guess they don't really have to be removed until we actually do our misc items overhaul
20:28 < nrook> dpeg: no, actually :)
20:29 <@dpeg> nrook: please comment, it is in its infancy
20:29 < nrook> dpeg: I searched mantis, but I forgot to search the wiki
20:30 <@dpeg> haha, I just got the peaceful quokka
20:30 < ogaz> syllogism: no one does it, but couldn't you conjure flame and use the lamp to make a massive army of fire elementals
20:30 < ogaz> ?
20:30 <+doy> ogaz: people have done that, actually
20:30 < syllogism> you get one per cloud
20:30 <+doy> i remember watching mr0t do that to great effect a year or so ago
20:30 < ogaz> oh
20:30 < syllogism> well
20:30 < syllogism> you can conjure more from the clouds the elementals leave behind :P
20:30 <+doy> especially since you can resummon off of their trails
20:30 <+doy> yeah
20:31 <@dpeg> all of this will be fixed by sorear's summon cap
20:31 < syllogism> but you can't displace fire elementals unless you dont mind having your scrolls burning
20:32 <+doy> *that* is something that will need serious discussion
20:32 <+doy> (:
20:32 < cbus> also prevents displacing them to run away
20:32 <@dpeg> doy: yes. Also a very good 0.7 target: little to code, lots of ramifications. A nice nerf.
20:32 < cbus> unless you don't mind burning for a while
20:33 <+doy> dpeg: well, that's my point, i think it'll be too big of a nerf, and we'll have to do at least a bit of overhaul on the summoning spells too
20:33 <+doy> but we can wait and see on that
20:36 <@dpeg> doy: how can it be too big a nerf? sorear's system has parameters to play with.
20:37 < nrook> dpeg: now, to figure out how to comment on your wiki page--I still don't understand wiki etiquette :)
20:37 <@dpeg> nrook: don't bother, just make a line (----), add your sig (rightmost button) and type ahead
20:38 <@dpeg> I like Yrdy.
20:38 <+doy> dpeg: we'll see how it goes, it's been a while since i read over the proposal
20:38 <+doy> (it should be moved to the wiki, too)
20:38 <+doy> and yeah, i really should try out some of the gods that have been buffed recently
20:39 <+doy> !lg s=god
20:39 < Henzell> 747 games for doy: 513x , 56x Xom, 37x Trog, 30x Okawaru, 24x Sif Muna, 24x Elyvilon, 19x Makhleb, 18x The Shining One, 7x Beogh, 5x Nemelex Xobeh, 3x Lugonu, 3x Kikubaaqudgha, 2x Cheibriados, 2x Yredelemnul, 2x Zin, 1x Vehumet, 1x Fedhas
20:39 <@dpeg> doy: yes, everything should be moved to the wiki
20:39 <@dpeg> btw, does "clarity suppress blurry vision these days?
20:39 <@dpeg> is Gourmand auto-identified?
20:39 <+doy> that sounds vaguely familiar
20:40 <+doy> don't remember if it ever went in
20:40 <+doy> and gourmand is auto-ided if you actually use it
20:40 <+doy> not when you put it on though
20:40 <@dpeg> yes, that's what I meant
20:42 < Cryp71c> Does anyone know *precisely* what foe_ratio does and is used for?
20:42 < Cryp71c> I mean, I can hazard a very rough guess its a ratio of foes to something
20:42 < Cryp71c> but that's not useful.
20:43 <+greensnark> Cryp71c: grep the code for places it's used and check?
20:44 < Cryp71c> greensnark, already have, I've found brief 1-2 sentence explanations in places, but not anything useful I couldn't have otherwise presumed myself.
20:44 < ais523> gourmand ought to ID as soon as you get the "this raw meat tastes good" message
20:44 <+greensnark> It's used to identify how many monsters that the spellcaster dislikes would be hurt by the beam vs how many monsters the spellcasters would like
20:44 < Cryp71c> ais523, it doesn't?
20:44 <+doy> ais523: it does
20:44 < Cryp71c> er, does*
20:44 < ais523> not if you're hungry at the time
20:44 <+greensnark> But if you really want to understand it, you have to look at hte code that uses it
20:44 < ais523> it IDs if you eat meat when not hungry
20:44 <+greensnark> Any explanation I give you would be less useful than the code
20:44 < ais523> but not when it gives the flavour message that has no gameplay effect but telling you you're wearing the amulet
20:44 <+doy> ais523: ah, shrug
20:44 <@dpeg> yes, that was my concern: does Gourmand only id if you think of trying to eat when not hungry?
20:44 <+doy> report it i guess
20:45 < Cryp71c> greensnark, well what I'm confused about is that if its a ratio, it aught to be a decimal, but most of the bolts use 60-80 ish, which is obviously used so that the ratio doesn't have to be scaled somewhere.
20:45 <+doy> pretty sure it ids whenever it has an actual gameplay effect
20:45 <+doy> but i guess not just by flavor messages
20:45 <+greensnark> Cryp71c: Right, you have to look at the code
20:45 <+greensnark> These things have no documentation apart from the code
20:45 < Cryp71c> doy, I don't think thats much of an issue, you don't auto-id poison resist jewelry, you have to be paying attention to it.
20:46 < Cryp71c> greensnark, ah, alas.
20:46 <+greensnark> But in general the ratio may be expressed as X with an implied denominator of Y
20:46 < ais523> also, cantrips are massively misleading in terms of item IDing
20:46 <+doy> Cryp71c: yeah, i'm not to concerned about it, i don't think the current behavior is particularly bad
20:46 <+greensnark> There's really no substitute for looking at the code
20:46 <+doy> but could go either way
20:46 < ais523> you get an orc priest turning transparent for a moment and think you're wearing see invisible
20:46 < ais523> and you pretty much have to memorise cantrip lists to avoid that problem, it's the sort of spoiler information that players shouldn't really need
20:46 < Cryp71c> greensnark, in any case, the monsters self-fireballing seems to be caused by the fireball tracer foe_ratio being 60, whereas all the other AOE effects which do not suffer from a similar 'bug' have a foe_ratio of 80
20:47 < ais523> presumably the solution is for cantrips to fail to do something that the player couldn't resist, or which is unlike anything else in the game
20:47 <@dpeg> ais523: make a list and file, please. This should be addressed.
20:47 < ais523> I'll have a look
20:47 <@dpeg> thank you
20:47 <+doy> ais523: if you look at a monster, you can tell if it's actually invisible
20:47 <+doy> even if you have see invis
20:49 < ais523> hmm, a neat trick
20:49 < ais523> do you get (invisible) in the HUD?
20:50 < ais523> or do you have to farlook every monster as it turns up to see if you have see invis or not?
20:50 < syllogism> it says (invisible)
20:50 < syllogism> but only if there's only one
20:50 < syllogism> which isn't generally a problem
20:51 < ais523> ah, ok
20:51 < ais523> not a problem then
20:51 <@dpeg> there is also Ctrl-X
20:51 < ais523> the becomes-transparent-for-a-moment message still is, though, I'm looking for others now
20:51 <@dpeg> yes
20:52 < ais523> what about messages that don't pseudo-ID the player's equipment, but do imply the monster screwed up a spell it doesn't actually have?
20:52 < ais523> that's probably less problematic (maybe the monster's trying to learn that spell?)
20:53 < syllogism> I suppose see invis should autoid when you see an invisible creature
20:53 < ais523> well, say you're wearing two un-IDed rings
20:53 < ais523> how can you tell which was responsible?
20:53 < syllogism> well that's different
20:53 < nrook> I like turning cantrips into miscasts
20:54 <@dpeg> that is a huge can of worms
20:54 <@dpeg> how much logic do you want to spend (on auto-id) -- there are many, many special cases
20:54 < syllogism> true and I think too many items already autoid
20:55 <@dpeg> yes
20:55 <@dpeg> I would prefer we somehow highlight (e.g. special colour) that something odd happened, e.g. you saw an invisible monster and it's not clear why. And then let the player do something about it, for example an inscription.
20:56 < ais523> @foe@ can be the player, can't it?
21:04 < MarvinPA> is there a way to reduce/get rid of god penance in wizmode?
21:04 < ais523> hmm, these Gastronok messages are confusing me
21:04 < ais523> I can't tell if they're very misleading cantrips, or actual spellcast effects in the wrong file
21:04 < MarvinPA> it seems not, because the only way to gain a religion is to create their altar :(
21:04 < Cryp71c> doy, self-fireballing is being caused by a low foe_ratio (60) vs the norm (80)
21:04 < Cryp71c> 70 fixes it, although other spells (hellfire, etc.) still use 80
21:05 < Cryp71c> This, to my knowledge, does not take into account resistances and such? I can't say for certain.
21:06 < Cryp71c> Then again, my knowledge could be very shallow (and likely is) on the subject.
21:06 < ais523> hmm, maybe we could go the other way, a unique who goes and cantrips out all sorts of fake pseudo-IDs
21:07 <@dpeg> MarvinPA: shouldn't &^ do it?
21:07 < MarvinPA> that adds piety to your current god, i think
21:08 < MarvinPA> doesn't matter too much, just would've been convenient :P
21:08 <@dpeg> opinions on moving cTele from ring to amulet?
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21:09 <@dpeg> proposed by Eino in an FR
21:10 < ais523> it fits a bit better flavourwise, I think
21:10 < TGW> what was?
21:10 <@dpeg> ais523: I think the same. But it would be a nerf (not that I'd mind).
21:10 <@dpeg> TGW: opinions on moving cTele from ring to amulet?
21:10 < TGW> dpeg: yes!
21:11 <+doy> Cryp71c: cool, good to know
21:11 <@dpeg> okay, will add it to the wiki
21:11 < ais523> hmm, some of the places where you need cTele rings will be more useful than amulets
21:11 < ais523> say, if you've already cleared the level but need to get loot
21:11 <+doy> it probably should be based on expected damage in some way, rather than just on the number of enemies
21:11 < ais523> OTOH, that means this change is probably even better
21:11 <+doy> but not sure what the best solution is
21:11 < ais523> we shouldn't make players jump through hoops on levels they've already cleared, I think
21:12 < Ashenzari> There is no note on the religion screen for Kiku's max piety ability (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=365) by MarvintheParanoidAndroid
21:16 < MarvinPA> hm, on a similar note to that, lugonu's note says "you can pray at an altar to have your weapon blessed", maybe "corrupted" would be more appropriate than blessed?
21:17 < MarvinPA> seeing as that's how it's described everywhere else
21:17 <@dpeg> MarvinPA: distorted? but a good point
21:17 <@dpeg> Eronarn: here?
21:18 < MarvinPA> when it becomes available you get "lugonu will now corrupt your weapon" i think
21:18 < MarvinPA> and similar when you actually do it and get a character note, but yeah
21:18 < CIA-81> greensnark * r915b92e5527c /crawl-ref/source/mon-pick.cc: Adjust shoals monster distribution.
21:18 < CIA-81> greensnark * r9841ce45ea91 /crawl-ref/ (10 files in 5 dirs): Add -script option to Crawl to run a Lua script. Scripts are similar to tests, but can be parameterised.
21:19 <@dpeg> MarvinPA: yes, I agree. Would you add another item?
21:20 < MarvinPA> sure
21:20 < ais523> I finished checking, it seems there are three cantrip messages which can imply a false pseudo-ID
21:20 <@dpeg> greensnark: oh, and many thanks for the new aptitude script
21:20 <@dpeg> ais523: cool. List them on Mantis?
21:20 <+greensnark> dpeg: Happy to help :)
21:20 < ais523> dpeg: ok, where is it?
21:20 < ais523> I'm not really used to anything but git and IRC for Crawl development
21:21 <+doy> ??mantis
21:21 < Henzell> mantis[1/2]: http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/
21:23 < CIA-81> greensnark * r6f7bad89c9c3 /crawl-ref/source/main.cc: Add -script usage note to commandline option help.
21:24 < ais523> hmm, which category does this go in?
21:25 < mr0t> doy: actually, I used conjure flame + summon elemental, iirc
21:25 <+doy> ah, okay
21:25 < mr0t> I was using them to kill mummies in tomb
21:26 < mr0t> and then a sphinx got me (after a greater mummy cast some shit at me)
21:26 < mr0t> but yeah, it was a great use of conjure flame
21:26 < mr0t> and, since fire elementals leave fire clouds behind, you only need to cast CF once
21:27 < mr0t> anyway, i gotta run, errands 
21:27 < Ashenzari> On the religion screen, display "...have your weapon corrupted" instead of "blessed", for Lugonu (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=366) by MarvintheParanoidAndroid
21:29 < Cryp71c> doy, I understand, although the changes to that code should be global, for any AOE ability, not just for fireball....so fireball's foe_ratio should go up to 70 (or 80, 70 is minimum) and additional code to check resistances and such would go elsewhere (Idk where)
21:29 <@dpeg> ais523: interface?
21:29 < Cryp71c> doy, code in question is at mon-cast.cc:416
21:29 < ais523> I put it in "testing and feedback" as I wasn't sure
21:32 < Ashenzari> Monsters suiciding with fireball (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=66) by Eronarn
21:32 < Ashenzari> Some cantrip messages imply false pseudo-IDs (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=367) by ais523
21:35 < Cryp71c> doy, so what now, is that all I have to do with regard to the fireball bug, since you can review the validity of my suggested 'fix' and commit it? I've added the solution as a note on mantis as well, for posterity.
21:35 <+doy> Cryp71c: i'm not familiar with the beam code or the monster ai code at all
21:36 <+doy> sorear or by might be better options
21:36 < Cryp71c> sorear, (refer to what I just said :P)
21:37 < Cryp71c> by, or you..
21:37 < Cryp71c> as you can tell, I prefer to use IRC's tagging to grab people's attention, so don't get offended if I do it religiously.
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21:42 < Ashenzari> dpeg created page Amulets at http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:item:amulets
21:44 < ais523> amulet of psych!
21:46 <@dpeg> Jesus, the Amulets FR had 53 comments, most of them long.
21:46 <+doy> haha, wow
21:47 <@dpeg> two hours of work, one FR closed :/
21:48 < Cryp71c> :(
21:48 < Cryp71c> sorear and by are afk it seems
21:48 <@dpeg> yes
21:48 <+doy> Cryp71c: yes, it happens
21:48 < Cryp71c> thats ok
21:48 <@dpeg> Cryp71c: !tell them
21:49 <+doy> Cryp71c: someone will see the tracker item soon enough
21:49 <@dpeg> ais523: could you have a look if I captured the Gourmand issue correctly in that wiki?
21:50 < ais523> dpeg: it fits my experiences of it, although the version I'm using is slightly behind Head
21:51 < Cryp71c> Also found a fix for http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=366
21:51 < Cryp71c> Put it up as a note
21:52 <+doy> Cryp71c: if you're going to do that, you might as well just attach the relevant patch to the ticket
21:52 <+doy> rather than just describing the fix
21:52 <@dpeg> Cryp71c: awesome comment on the bug, thanks
21:53 <+doy> also, people will see the tickets, you don't have to announce them on irc too(:
21:53 < Cryp71c> dpeg, was that sarcastic?
21:53 < Cryp71c> doy, my bad
21:53 <@dpeg> Cryp71c: no, serious
21:53 <@dpeg> doy: hey, he just fixed an annoying bug
21:53 < Cryp71c> doy, didn't want to re-post the entire file in case it has recently be changed on the git head (and I just posted a 'fix' on an old version of the file)
21:53 < Cryp71c> s/be/been*
21:54 <+doy> Cryp71c: if you make the change in your git checkout and commit it, you can do "git format-patch -1" and it will generate a file that you can attach
21:54 <@dpeg> Cryp71c: yes, that would be the icing on the cake.
21:54 <+doy> which someone can then just apply directly
21:54 < Cryp71c> dpeg, fireball bug or 'blessed'=>'corrupted' one?
21:54 <@dpeg> Cryp71c: I commented on the fireball
21:55 < Cryp71c> dpeg, ah, k.
21:55 <+doy> the fireball bug, that's been around for a while
21:55 <@dpeg> but the other comment is also good
21:55 <@dpeg> if you provide the patches, just give me your name as well
21:55 <@dpeg> for the CREDITS
21:57 < Cryp71c> dpeg, i only see my comment on the fireball note on mantis, when you said "I commented on the fireball" were you referring to IRC or mantis?
21:58 < Napkin> he meant his comment "yes, that would be the icing on the cake."
21:58 < Cryp71c> ohhh ok
21:58 < Napkin> Nabend guys, hi dpeg 
21:59 -!- purge [n=IceChat7@d192-24-82-173.try.wideopenwest.com] has joined ##crawl-dev
22:00 < Cryp71c> doy, for that git format-patch - is that an L or 1?
22:00 < Napkin> 1
22:00 < Napkin> it means to create a patch between you current worktree and the commit before (-1)
22:01 <@dpeg> Cryp71c: to Mantis. I got it in my mail :)
22:01 < Cryp71c> dpeg, the one I just did?
22:01 <@dpeg> Hi Napkin!
22:01 <@dpeg> Cryp71c: yes
22:02 <@dpeg> Napkin: the automatic transfer is so awesome.
22:02 < Cryp71c> dpeg, so when i 'git format-patch -1' it auto-mails to you?
22:02 < Napkin> glad you like it :)
22:02 < Napkin> it's missing the startpref though - would it be desirable to transfer that too?
22:02 <@dpeg> Cryp71c: no, whenever you add something to any MAntis item, I see it.
22:02 < Cryp71c> dpeg, ohh, k.
22:02 <@dpeg> There is some confusion here, but it's nothing serious.
22:02 <@dpeg> Keep up the good work :)
22:03 < Napkin> I've been crying terribly about the chaos brand today, david! I even used the f-word :-$
22:03 <@dpeg> Napkin: Fish?
22:03 <@dpeg> I say that all day!
22:03 < Napkin> fish me :D hehe
22:04 <@dpeg> If I see you one more fishing time... :)
22:04 -!- MarvinPA [n=marvin@80-41-167-48.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit []
22:04  * Napkin whistles innocently *
22:05 <@dpeg> Napkin: yes, will be fixed. Should go back to the old state where only Xom (and vaults) can provide chaos brand.
22:05 < Napkin> \o/
22:05 <@dpeg> doy: there were some exciting layout ideas. Will you keep them? Or add them to a wiki? I am burnt out wiki-wise today.
22:06 <+doy> dpeg: not today, but i will collect them tomorrow and do something with them
22:06 <@dpeg> cool
22:06 < Napkin> btw, I am really impressed by the mantis usage
22:06 <@dpeg> Napkin: yes, we have a better flood than on SF!
22:07 <@dpeg> more items/hour
22:07 < Napkin> already 339 issues and only 213 left :D
22:08 < Napkin> i've been a bit lazy (and playing a lot of crawl) to do the changes (brainstorm status, etc)
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22:09 < Cryp71c> dpeg, I'm a bit confused. I updated my local copy to the git head earlier, when I compiled it and ran it, it crashes when I try to try to create a monster by name
22:09 < Cryp71c> dpeg, so - at doy's recommendation - I reverted to an earlier release
22:09 < Cryp71c> Since then, I've made the fireball correction on my local copy and performed a 'git format-patch -1' and all I get in the patch file is the info for the revert, it seems.
22:09 < Cryp71c> I'm missing something big, I think.
22:10 <+doy> Cryp71c: you didn't commit your change
22:11 <@dpeg> Cryp71c: don't address with your git issues
22:11 <@dpeg> I am only a pedestrian, sometimes a crawler when it comes to git
22:11 <+doy> yeah, dpeg is still learning git too(:
22:11 <@dpeg> ask doy!
22:11 < elly> ask the internet!
22:11 < Cryp71c> dpeg, sorry, I tag people out of habit with IRC.
22:12 < Cryp71c> doy, I don't have commit permissions though, do I/
22:12 < Cryp71c> ?*
22:12 < Napkin> you have, Cryp71c 
22:12 <+doy> Cryp71c: with git, committing is a completely local operation
22:12 < Napkin> since you will commit to your local copy only
22:12 < Cryp71c> ohhhhhhHhhhhhhh
22:12 < Cryp71c> :)
22:12 <+doy> you then use the 'push' command to move the existing commits to another server
22:12 <+doy> and that's the part you can't do
22:12 <+doy> (:
22:13 < Napkin> would a git reset have been better in his case instead of a git revert?
22:13 <+doy> Napkin: no, because it's just reverting a single commit from a while ago
22:13 < Napkin> ah
22:13 < Napkin> ok
22:13 < Napkin> i thought he jumped back to certain commit in time
22:13 < elly> should Cryp71c be on the committer list?
22:14 <@dpeg> elly: no, not yet
22:14 < elly> okay
22:14 <@dpeg> elly: you're always on the hunt? :)
22:15 < elly> always.
22:16 < Napkin> ok.. this is embarassing.. who are you, Elly? :-$
22:17 < elly> actually, more or less an arbitrary person
22:18 < elly> I currently own this channel in favor of dpeg having to figure out how IRC acls work :P
22:18 < Napkin> omg! then you've been here all the time and I didn't see you!
22:18 < elly> ...yes? :P
22:19 < Napkin> Hi Elly! :-P
22:19 < elly> hi!
22:19 < Napkin> :)
22:20 -!- ortoslon [n=chatzill@host-89-31-115-253.academ.org] has joined ##crawl-dev
22:21 < elly> I'm not exactly a celebrity :P
22:24 -!- Eifel [n=Eifel@xdsl-78-35-159-127.netcologne.de] has joined ##crawl-dev
22:26 < Cryp71c> There, I've stuck patch files to those 2 bugs
22:28 < Cryp71c> onto Mantis
22:32 <@dpeg> elly is part of the infrastructure!
22:32 <@dpeg> Treat her well
22:32 < elly> I am
22:32 < elly> I'm like a maintenance bot
22:32 <@dpeg> Cryp71c: thanks
22:32 < elly> except I have feelings and cry real tears
22:32  * dpeg gives elly some oil.
22:32  * elly ...puts it on bread?
22:34 <@dpeg> wrong!
22:34 <@dpeg> You failed the Turing test for machines.
22:35 < elly> ahh!
22:35  * elly hides
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22:48 <+due> Does nobody read my bloody commit messages?
22:48 < Henzell> due: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them.
22:48 <+due> -.-
22:50 < elly> due: I sure don't.
22:50 -!- Eifel [n=Eifel@xdsl-78-35-159-127.netcologne.de] has quit ["Tööö waaahhh!!!"]
22:50 < elly> :)
22:50 -!- Eifel [n=Eifel@xdsl-78-35-159-127.netcologne.de] has joined ##crawl-dev
22:54 <+doy> due: which ones?
22:55 <+due> doy: Eh, I am just in a bad mood.
22:58 <+due> !
22:58 <+due> No, come back, liches + glass!
22:58 -!- Eifel [n=Eifel@xdsl-78-35-159-127.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
22:58 <+due> :(
23:02 -!- by [n=rob@g225121177.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
23:03 < cbus> stupid power failure
23:03 < Cryp71c> hrm, sorear never did come back.
23:03 < cbus> someone should be executed
23:03 < elly> er, where did sorear go?
23:03 < Cryp71c> ohwell, my changes are on mantis, someone will see them.
23:04 < Cryp71c> he's afk
23:04 < elly> oh
23:04 < elly> it happens :P
23:04 <+doy> Cryp71c: it's been... like a couple hours
23:04 <+doy> (:
23:04 < Cryp71c> doy, I know, that's a long afk
23:05 <+doy> ...it is?
23:05 < elly> :P
23:05 < elly> gotta sleep sometime
23:05 < Zannick> elly: this coming from you
23:06 < elly> yes
23:06 < elly> I sleep sometimes
23:14 <+due> Does conservation prevent food theft?
23:14 -!- TGW [n=TGW@c-68-61-239-31.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined ##crawl-dev
23:15 <+due> dpeg: Ping.
23:19 < CIA-81> due * rfaf758758cb4 /crawl-ref/source/makeitem.cc: Disallow randomly-generated chaos branded ammunition (dpeg, Napkin).
23:19 < CIA-81> due * r0af1dc336fba /crawl-ref/source/l_item.cc: Fix return values (rob).
23:22 < Napkin> \o/
23:23 < Napkin> moin due!
23:23 < Cryp71c> doy, yeppers, IRC afks are usually only 10 mins or so. If its longer you usually see a d/c
23:23 <+doy> Cryp71c: that depends entirely on where you hang out
23:24 <+doy> (i've used irc for quite a while d: )
23:24 <+doy> a good amount of people here (me included) just have irc running on a shell account somewhere and connect to it over ssh
23:25 <+doy> since disconnecting means you miss scrollback
23:26  * due holds up hand.
23:27 < Napkin> !send due fresh and hot saturday morning coffee
23:27 < Henzell> Sending fresh and hot saturday morning coffee to due.
23:27 <+due> :) Thanks.
23:29 < Cryp71c> Saturday morning? Good lord. Its 4:30 Friday here, where do you guys live?
23:29 <+doy> everywhere!
23:29 < Cryp71c> :)
23:32 < MarvinPA> in the future! :o
23:32 < Cryp71c> doy, quick question: http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=16 reports that meph cloud travels 1 tile further than its maximum range (since the maximum range is the maximum range for the CENTER of the spell)
23:33 < Cryp71c> Fireball works in a similar way, to me this seems to be the correct way for these AOE spells to target
23:33 < Cryp71c> Am I wrong (and the bug report accurate) or vice versa?
23:33 <+doy> i'm not sure, i wasn't really involved in the beam rewrite stuff
23:33 <+doy> i don't know what was actually intended there
23:34 < Cryp71c>  TGW, when you wrote that bug report, was it based off some insight you have on the beam code or ?
23:34 < TGW> cryp71c: can you actually test that
23:34 < TGW> you can *center* the beam one space beyond range
23:35 < Cryp71c> TGW, not in trunk you can't
23:35 < TGW> unless something had changed, you can
23:35 < TGW> changed recently
23:35 < Cryp71c> meph cloud has a range of 5, a range of 6 results in a "That is beyond the maximum range."
23:35 < TGW> target with !
23:35 < TGW> :|
23:36 < TGW> you can center the beam 6 spaces, and the cloud adds 1 on that
23:36 < MarvinPA> ah yeah, shift-dir lets you fire it a sqaure further than you should be able to as well it seems
23:36 < TGW> meanwhile autotarget thinks it can only go five spaces
23:36 < TGW> (plus the cloud radius)
23:36 < Cryp71c> TGW, indeed, you are correct.
23:41 < Cryp71c> TGW, are you familiar with the beem code?
23:41 < TGW> no
23:41 < Cryp71c> ??stinking cloud
23:41 < Henzell> I don't have a page labeled stinking_cloud in my learndb.
23:41 < TGW> nor other code
23:41 < TGW> nor coding
23:41 < Cryp71c> TGW, oh, :P k
23:42 < Cryp71c> It would seem the issue is that meph cloud uses the 'stinking_cloud' bolt, which has a range of 6.
23:42 < Cryp71c> Obviously the fix would be simple, but IDK if anything else uses stinking_cloud which SHOULD have a range of 6
23:43 < Ashenzari> Mephitic cloud range (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=16) by TGW
23:43 <+due> Actualy
23:43 < Cryp71c> Ashenzari, are you a bot?
23:43 < MarvinPA> fire storm seems to let you centre it 7 spaces away from yourself
23:43 < MarvinPA> and it's meant to have a range of 6
23:43 <+due> MarvinPA: It's smite-targetted, though.
23:44 < MarvinPA> hm
23:44 < MarvinPA> but part of the screen greys out, as if it had a range limit
23:45 < Cryp71c> MarvinPA, what does z?! say?
23:45 < TGW> ashenzari is a bot
23:45 < MarvinPA> range of 6
23:45 < MarvinPA> but you can place it anywhere in LoS it seems
23:45 < nrook> hmm, how, exactly, do I reset the crawl code to the current repository?
23:45 <@dpeg> due: ping
23:45 <+doy> nrook: what do you mean?
23:46 <@dpeg> due: sorry, pong of course
23:46 < Cryp71c> nrook, git update? (idk)
23:47 <+doy> nrook: 'git pull' updates your copy, if that's what you're asking
23:47 < MarvinPA> likewise ice storm, which is a beam i guess
23:47 < nrook> doy: I think that's what I'm asking, so I'll try it
23:47 < Cryp71c> MarvinPA, how are you able to target 7 spaces away? I can't get it to cast there.
23:47 < Cryp71c> (fire storm)
23:47 < MarvinPA> just by using ! to fire it
23:48 <+due> dpeg: Ack, I leave!
23:48 < MarvinPA> 8 spaces away works, even
23:48 <@dpeg> due: don't!
23:48 <@dpeg> due: I lost nerves and removed my Crypt:$ vault :)
23:48 <+due> What?!
23:49  * due reverts.
23:49 < Cryp71c> MarvinPA, indeed it does.
23:49 <@dpeg> due: didn't you see the commit?
23:49 <+due> Yes, I was unsure why.
23:49 < Cryp71c> due, do you have any experience with the beam code?
23:49 <+due> Cryp71c: No!
23:49  * due gone.
23:50 < Cryp71c> due, lol my bad! I keep getting u and doy confused, I don't know each of you well enough and your names are too similar.
23:50 < Cryp71c> I thought doy had said earlier that they didn't know the beam code.
23:51 <+doy> it's a common mistake
23:51 <+doy> (:
23:51 <+doy> as it turns out, neither of us are very familiar with the beam code
23:51 <+doy> sorear and haranp would probably be the ones most familiar
23:52 <+doy> although other people probably have some idea
23:53 < Cryp71c> I'm just trying to figure out if the stinking_cloud bolt type is used for anything other than meph cloud
23:53 <+doy> swamp drake breath, i think
23:53 <+doy> and evaporated potions of confusion
23:53 < nrook> doy: git pull is it, yeah :)
23:54 < nrook> now I just need to figure out how to update freetype, etc., or at least to stop them showing up as dirty
23:54 <+doy> git submodule update
23:54 < nrook> doy: ah, that's it! thank you!
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