01:13:10 that's a wonderful branch name great-cleavage 01:35:11 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.29-a0-620-g13ace881f2 (34) 01:36:24 -!- mhcerri7 is now known as mhcerri 01:57:07 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.29-a0-620-g13ace881f2 02:23:06 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.29-a0-620-g13ace881f2 (34) 02:39:48 <12ebering> floraline: obscene account name on kelbi 02:39:56 <12ebering> F*DCSSDevs 02:47:38 <12ebering> well now just DCSSDevsAreWorthless 02:47:54 <12ebering> unsure if you're up and actively admining them away, but now a non-slur one 02:48:58 03ebering02 07* 0.29-a0-621-ge4689427c4: fix: remove a stray random altar from overflow range 10(15 seconds ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e4689427c435 02:54:24 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.29-a0-620-g13ace881f2 03:32:25 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.29-a0-621-ge4689427c4 (34) 03:38:01 Fork (bcrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-a0-4719-g50af30713d 06:21:59 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-4719-g50af30713d 08:07:13 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.29-a0-621-ge468942 (34) 09:55:21 03ebering02 07* 0.29-a0-622-g8217bd198b: feat: damage ratings for thrown items 10(26 minutes ago, 1 file, 18+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/8217bd198bb5 09:55:21 03ebering02 07* 0.29-a0-623-g14c03f4a0f: feat: reduce stone availability and make them always mulch 10(14 minutes ago, 2 files, 4+ 5-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/14c03f4a0f6c 09:55:21 03ebering02 07* 0.29-a0-624-g39d4558d33: refactor: remove dead quantity code for launcher ammo 10(41 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 19-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/39d4558d337d 10:03:39 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.29-a0-624-g39d4558d33 (34) 10:07:28 <10PleasingFungus> @ebering instead of 1 + random2(5) + random2(5), consider 2d5-1? 10:07:48 <10PleasingFungus> am on baby duty, otherwise would change it myself 10:28:52 03ebering02 07* 0.29-a0-625-ga996378906: fix: idiomatic randomness (PleasingFungus) 10(10 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a996378906e8 10:29:10 <12ebering> done 10:32:33 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.29-a0-625-ga996378906 (34) 10:34:25 <12ebering> NAME: ebering_chaos_chukker TAGS: transparent no_monster_gen extra DEPTH: Shoals, Depths KFEAT: _ = altar_xom : if you.in_branch("Shoals") then KMONS: _ = cyclops ; large rock ego:chaos : else KMONS: _ = stone giant ; large rock ego:chaos : end MAP _ ENDMAP 10:34:39 <12ebering> I think I won't push this unless I get a nod from someone else 10:35:36 <05kate> that's chuck's gimmick, don't steal the one thing he has left! 10:35:51 that's what I was thinking 10:36:02 <05kate> we already took his rocks of returning... 10:40:48 <12ebering> chaos missiles also don't behave quite right 10:41:09 <12ebering> since they select a random missile brand and most of whats left of those are the dart brands 10:45:52 <09hellmonk> Iron giant assassin unique with large rocks of sleeping 10:46:02 <12ebering> yes 10:46:47 <09hellmonk> The greatest apprentice of the assassin Sonja 10:48:16 <10PleasingFungus> nice 10:48:37 <09hellmonk> Also bring back norris 10:48:56 <12ebering> shhh don't say it too loud the time cops will get you too 10:49:36 <09hellmonk> Surfboards aren't anachronistic though 10:49:48 Maud has three kills over here 10:50:31 <10PleasingFungus> @hellmonk btw, feel like you’ll really enjoy the old quantity code in https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/14c03f4a0f6c if you haven’t already 10:51:30 <09hellmonk> Yeah, very funny that it didn't use random2avg at least 10:52:27 <10PleasingFungus> 1 + r2(7) + r2(10) + r2(12) + r2(10) 10:52:35 <10PleasingFungus> now this is podracing 10:53:00 <10PleasingFungus> finely tuned numbers from the finest balancecrafters 10:53:34 <09hellmonk> Making a function called random3 that sums random2 of the first n Fibonacci numbers 10:53:40 <10PleasingFungus> lol 10:54:02 <10PleasingFungus> have we ruled out porting nethack’s rnz? 11:55:10 <12ebering> @PleasingFungus thinkin about abyss, wdyt about doing something like this: - advil's rune guidance - min depth of entry based on previous depth achieved - re-scale the random depth pull - contam if you're lingering, just in case (for some definition of lingering) - xp again but still no items 11:55:40 <10PleasingFungus> 1 2 3 good 11:55:56 <10PleasingFungus> i don’t understand 4 or 5 11:56:25 <10PleasingFungus> why not items and what’s lingering 11:57:13 <12ebering> imo (and this is a long term vision that currently Pan doesn't jive with) zigs should be the only unlimited source of items 11:57:49 <12ebering> 4 and 5 are aimed at a hypothetical character that's ok with making repeated journeys to A:5 12:09:57 <09hellmonk> Scale abyss across 27 levels and if you reach level 27 and then leave you can't go back in 12:11:11 <09hellmonk> Lugonu says "enough of you! Begone! You are unbanished. The divine experience paralyzes you!" 12:12:49 <10PleasingFungus> why should zigs be the only source of items? 12:14:20 <10PleasingFungus> re characters comfy w abyss 5, my thought was to scale abyss further, to 7 or even 9 floors- such that only megazig characters would be truly comfy at the bottom 12:15:24 <10PleasingFungus> adjusting enemy spawn rates and composition feels more elegant to me than adding extra contam mechanics 12:16:22 <10PleasingFungus> i don’t feel super strongly about items, but it’d be great to optimize for the experience of 3-rune players - think abyss items feel good there 12:19:11 <12ebering> grinding an area for "just the right item" is tedious if the area is monotonous. maybe a sufficiently spicy abyss will address this. what I want to avoid is leaving a trap for the loot-greedy 3-rune player who heeds no advice that "this is silly just go win" and does a ton of abyss beyond the rune because they want another mut pot or blink scroll or something (there were such players for old abyss, even with the depth mechanic, but 12:19:11 maybe they'd disappear with min-depth alone... my current gut is no) 12:19:24 <12ebering> maybe I'm throwin the baby out with the bathwater a second time though 12:21:11 <10PleasingFungus> 🙂 12:21:34 <10PleasingFungus> agree imo mindepth should be enough to kill em off 12:21:37 <10PleasingFungus> oop 12:21:58 <10PleasingFungus> *agree we don't want grind traps, but imo... 12:22:25 seems to me people who want to grind will grind 12:25:26 <10PleasingFungus> eh 12:25:45 <10PleasingFungus> grind not feasible in 3rune now really 12:25:55 <10PleasingFungus> that's good 12:27:04 Hey, where's the source for the discord bridge? 12:27:35 Just had a thought about something and want to check if it's legit without suggesting to people to shove beans up noses in here. 12:40:34 <10PleasingFungus> asks gams 12:49:40 <10PleasingFungus> @ebering btw, very hype about abyss changes! was planning on doing much of that myself, along with making abyss rune vault tiles their own feature - lmk if there’s anything you’d like me to take 13:07:07 <12ebering> we'll see 13:07:21 <12ebering> I'm catch as catch can to blow off steam between loading moving stuff and dealing with paperwork 13:36:33 <08nicolae> :I what's the compile command for debug mode, again? make TILES=y DEBUG? 13:41:13 <05kate> debug has to be in lowercase i think, but otherwise yeah 13:55:06 <08nicolae> danke 13:55:21 <08nicolae> also, follow up question: does you.skills[ SK_WHATEVER ] return the base value or the enhanced value 14:07:26 <10PleasingFungus> if you look at player::attack_delay_with in player-act.cc, you'll see it uses you.skill(wpn_skill, 10) for calculating weapon attack delay (where '10' is a multiplier, so eg would return 270 if you had 27 in a skill) 14:07:42 <10PleasingFungus> you'd want to use that function 14:26:33 <08nicolae> aha, thank you 14:29:15 <08nicolae> skill is stored in tenths, right, so if i want an int i would need a 10 14:31:30 <10PleasingFungus> no 14:31:46 <10PleasingFungus> you can get more or less arbitrarily precise amounts of skill 14:32:34 <10PleasingFungus> i’d recommend 100, that should be good enough to compare axes and polearms. 15:08:37 <08nicolae> is there a lua hook that checks if a thing is an unrand 15:10:10 <08nicolae> i think i managed to pick up most of the cases where i would need to handle the polearms/axes quantum superposition but sadly the lua auto-stash-prefixing thinger doesn't put both {Polearms} and {Axes} 15:10:25 <08nicolae> and i'll be god damned if i let anyone say i half-assed the implementation of this goofy idea 15:18:41 New branch created: pull/2575 (3 commits) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2575 15:18:41 034Hooves2Appendages02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2575 * 0.27-a0-1197-g0614fe58a9: Second Antaeus quote 10(1 year, 1 month ago, 1 file, 5+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/0614fe58a9bc 15:18:41 034Hooves2Appendages02 {GitHub} 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2575 * 0.29-a0-627-ga30d37d91f: Merge branch 'crawl:master' into master 10(2 hours ago, 0 files, 0+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a30d37d91fae 15:18:41 034Hooves2Appendages02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2575 * 0.29-a0-628-gfa6dbe598e: Gives arachnids 'skitter' shouts 10(15 minutes ago, 6 files, 36+ 13-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/fa6dbe598ef0 15:24:51 <10PleasingFungus> nicolae: doubt that's the right approach 15:24:54 <10PleasingFungus> hrm 15:25:26 <10PleasingFungus> ...are you talking about stash search prefixes? 15:25:30 <08nicolae> yeah 15:25:50 <08nicolae> {artefact} {artifact} {two-handed} and all that 15:27:51 <08nicolae> that all appears to be handled in stash.lua 15:28:23 <10PleasingFungus> i'm wondering if what you want to do is to change it.weap_skill to return a comma-separated list of skills and to have stash.lua split it up when writing weapon skills. that might be worse, though - a disruptive change for a silly corner case 15:28:37 <10PleasingFungus> eh, but maybe that's better for bots? 15:28:44 <10PleasingFungus> once they get updated to understand it 15:29:13 <10PleasingFungus> in that case, you'd poke at l-item.cc:572 15:29:24 <10PleasingFungus> in addition to stash.lua 15:29:47 <08nicolae> i suppose that'd work better long-term if anybody else has any goofy plans for hybrid skill weapons 15:33:20 <08nicolae> also apparently lua is bad at splitting strings 15:35:13 <08nicolae> oh, nice, crawl.lua provides one 15:35:15 <10PleasingFungus> nice 15:36:57 -!- kate-- is now known as kate- 15:45:43 <08nicolae> it works 😭 15:47:10 <08nicolae> okay, i'll commit that and then maybe later today i'll push it 15:47:22 <08nicolae> the code works, the unrand itself might need its numbers jostled 15:48:10 <08nicolae> currently it's NAME: lochaber axe OBJ: OBJ_WEAPONS/WPN_BARDICHE TYPE: lochaber axe TILE: urand_lochaber_axe TILE_EQ: lochaber_axe COLOUR: ETC_IRON PLUS: +7 BASE_ACC: -1 BASE_DAM: +1 BASE_DELAY: +1 INSCRIP: reach, cleave+ 15:48:24 03ebering02 07* 0.29-a0-626-g7f7ec87276: text: clarify battlesphere's description 10(10 seconds ago, 1 file, 4+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/7f7ec87276c9 16:02:37 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.29-a0-626-g7f7ec87276 (34) 16:14:19 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.29-a0-627-g39ea5eca17: Despoiler the Abyss rune (mostly) 10(16 minutes ago, 13 files, 84+ 42-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/39ea5eca1726 16:15:31 <10PleasingFungus> @Sastreii hope you're well! If you're interested, https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/39ea5eca1726e2021e282025f8bffa04df9b0009 introduces yet another new thing that could use a tile - it's a glowing light floor-feature which indicates that the abyssal rune is nearby. 16:29:44 <|amethyst> So, let's just say, if I did implement reach-cleaving for scythes, would anyone be upset? They currently feel kind of out-of-place as a newbie trap (most importantly, being strictly inferior to bardiches), and it would not realistically affect Sigmund except maybe for Summoners or Necromancers 16:30:14 <10PleasingFungus> yes, i would disapprove 16:30:23 <|amethyst> aww 16:30:52 <10PleasingFungus> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/987816691075530842/unknown.png 16:31:10 <08nicolae> a bardiche unrand, you say 16:31:25 <10PleasingFungus> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/987816828531245057/unknown.png 16:31:42 <10PleasingFungus> a few of my past hits on the subject 16:32:02 <10PleasingFungus> (forgetting reapers.... smh..............) 16:32:51 Sigmund is allowed to be cool with a scythe, but players aren't. :( 16:33:26 <|amethyst> Well, what else can we do with scythes? 16:33:34 <10PleasingFungus> nothing? they're completely fine as is 16:33:53 <|amethyst> IMO the current status is "you should never use this, unless it's a randart" 16:33:56 <10PleasingFungus> yes 16:34:07 IMO that's a bad current status 16:34:13 <10PleasingFungus> weird o 16:34:31 reason being: scythes are inherently a cool weapon. I like using cool weapons. 16:36:17 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.29-a0-627-g39ea5eca17 (34) 16:36:38 <10PleasingFungus> to elaborate a little more, the questions we ask players to make about weapon choice are usually: 1. How well does this weapon match my current skills and skill aptitudes? ("Polearms or axes? Battleaxe or executioner's axe?") 2. Do I want to be using a 1-handed weapon or a 2-hander? ("Trident or halberd?") 3. How good is this weapon within its skill and handedness niche? (enchantment, brand, artefact properties, etc) these 16:36:38 together end up making a pretty good strategic game. There's a general progression from low-skill early-game weapons to high-damage late game weapons, and finding one of the latter is rare and exciting. 16:37:48 <|amethyst> But, specifically, what about scythes? It feels like, except in the case of artefacts, one should never use them 16:37:51 <10PleasingFungus> it's not really clear to me where scythes would fit in - they currently have very late-game skill requirements for mindelay, we probably don't want a weapon you find on d:2 to be competitive with a bardiche. 16:38:00 <10PleasingFungus> scythes are a flavour weapon. 16:38:06 <10PleasingFungus> they exist to make sigmund and reapers look cool. 16:38:19 But players should be allowed to be cool as well! 16:38:23 <08nicolae> no 16:38:25 heck 16:38:30 <08nicolae> players should look like fucking dorks at all times 16:38:50 "I stole this cool weapon from a scary strong dude, and now I get to use it to mess folks up" is a cool player story 16:38:55 <10PleasingFungus> i think it's good for players to be cool in a vacuum, but you shouldn't cap out on cool on d:2 on a regular basis 16:39:18 <09gammafunk> there's always the chance you find a sycthe of speed artifact too 16:39:34 <10PleasingFungus> sure 16:39:57 Tangential, but I wonder if a fun/interesting randart gimmick would be a heavy (probably two-handed) weapon that's speed is "momentum" based. Starts very slow (20 auts or so), but for each consecutive turn you hit with it it reduces the delay of the next swing to some minimum like 5 auts. 16:40:00 <|amethyst> But, other than either (a) doing calculations about delay and damage; or (b) trying again and again until realising it doesn't work: How do players figure out that they're not supposed to use scythes? 16:40:21 <10PleasingFungus> probably looking at a scythe and then looking at a halberd 16:40:32 <10PleasingFungus> it's not exactly deeply hidden spoilers 16:40:56 I'm not sure if it's fair to expect early players to be that smart. Mainly because I don't think I was. 16:41:04 <10PleasingFungus> oh, i expect early players to get it wrong 16:41:08 <10PleasingFungus> but i expect them to get everything wrong 16:41:18 there's also possibly an assumption that sigmund is so deadly and wields a scythe… 16:41:31 I mean, I literally picked staves as my first weapon (and the weapon I first won with) solely because I thought they were cool 16:41:34 <10PleasingFungus> they'll use +3 randart spears of protection (int-5, dex+3) over a glaive 16:41:38 <10PleasingFungus> staves are cool! 16:41:46 <|amethyst> But how is the scythe not a no-brainer 16:41:59 <10PleasingFungus> it is a no brainer. it's not a choice we're asking players to make. 16:42:04 <10PleasingFungus> it is purely flavour. 16:42:06 <05kate> i feel like they're comparable to hammers in terms of just being a flavour weapon except sigmund gets more of a pass than yiuf because he's sigmund (which is fine imo) 16:42:24 If it's a flavor weapon it should at least be... borderline usable :P 16:42:28 <10PleasingFungus> what? 16:42:30 <10PleasingFungus> why? 16:42:42 Because there's no reason to dissuade players from using flavor weapons 16:42:48 <10PleasingFungus> ?????????? 16:42:55 <|amethyst> kate-: But we removed hammers 16:42:59 � 16:43:03 <09gammafunk> flavor weapon the idea is basically "we shouldn't use this" 16:43:14 <09gammafunk> it exists just for flavor 16:43:21 that's not how I see them 16:43:27 <09gammafunk> hrm? 16:43:32 <10PleasingFungus> then you're using a different definition from other people in this conversation 16:43:36 <10PleasingFungus> which will impair your ability to understand it 16:43:41 yeah I'm seeing that :P 16:43:41 <05kate> right, that's why i said sigmund gets more of a pass, they're iconic enough on sigmund that it's fine for them to stick around imo 16:43:41 <|amethyst> But how do players learn that? 16:43:57 <10PleasingFungus> by looking at a scythe and then looking at a halberd 16:43:59 <08nicolae> they use a scythe and go "this kinda sucks" 16:44:12 <|amethyst> lol, that's legit 16:44:15 I imagine flavor weapons as "re-skin of a normal weapon type that is similar in terms of stats but looks cool in a different way" 16:44:25 <10PleasingFungus> right, that's a different thing from what everyone else is talking about 16:44:29 <12ebering> they swing a scythe at an early bullfrog and get hit 3 times and die 16:44:31 <10PleasingFungus> here's my take: if nicolae gets lochaber axe in game and it's a spectacular success, everyone says "this is the best mechanic ever", players carry him through the streets on their backs, etc, then we can reconsider using reach cleaving more widely. right now, it's still way too experimental for me to want to make it a very common mechanic 16:44:31 <|amethyst> but I don't think it's so obvious as you think 16:45:13 <10PleasingFungus> again, i don't expect new players to notice this. but if we only included mechanics that new players understood, we'd, uh 16:45:17 <10PleasingFungus> i'm not sure what we would have 16:45:29 <08nicolae> i think the distinction is between "flavor weapon" and a "weapon that is flavor", like red devils get polearms because of the existing flavor of devils with pitchforks, but that's not really a "flavor weapon" in the sense here because most polearms are actually usable 16:45:37 <10PleasingFungus> part of the joy of crawl is slowly gaining new understanding of its systems. a lenticular view 16:46:02 <10PleasingFungus> not that scythes are particularly interesting in that way, but i don't think they're harmful, either 16:46:06 Perhaps a better way of wording my expectation as a player is this: as a player, I expect that a cool-looking weapon is comparable with, or directly better than, a default weapon you can start with. 16:46:19 And I suspect that that expectation is helped by at least two other people. Maybe. 16:46:24 held, not helped. 16:46:27 <10PleasingFungus> sure 16:46:46 <10PleasingFungus> there are many, many cool looking things in crawl that are terrible 16:46:49 <10PleasingFungus> short sword unrands 16:46:53 <10PleasingFungus> er, randarts* 16:47:01 nooo don't say that :( 16:47:06 <10PleasingFungus> lol 16:47:08 nothing is allowed to be cool and bad! 16:47:08 <09gammafunk> and to be clear 16:47:18 <09gammafunk> it's perfectly possible to pick up a scythe, use it, and win the game 16:47:21 oh for sure 16:47:31 <09gammafunk> so it's not like you're going to literally always die or anything 16:47:36 <09gammafunk> you'll just have a bad melee profile 16:47:39 <08nicolae> scythe unrand, you wield it and you die immediately 16:47:43 <09gammafunk> but you're a minotaur, so w/e 16:48:14 scythe unrand that when it hits any creature it kills them instantly. This effect is activated on wielding it. 16:48:18 <09gammafunk> it's also extremely consistent with the widely held notion: scythes are absolutely horrible to use as weapon 16:48:22 <|amethyst> I guess my concern is that scythes are one of the few (if not the only) remaining items that one should never use 16:48:53 <10PleasingFungus> i understand your concern, and if sigmund didn't exist, i think we would cut scythes 16:49:22 reapers 16:49:29 <10PleasingFungus> reapers could have innate reaching 16:49:35 <10PleasingFungus> other demons do 16:49:36 <08nicolae> reachpers 16:49:40 nice 16:50:38 <|amethyst> So, what if we gave Sigmund a bardiche or a halberd or something? 16:50:42 <12ebering> rip scythe of curses 16:50:48 <10PleasingFungus> rip finisher 16:50:59 <12ebering> bardiche of curses just... aint it 16:51:05 <10PleasingFungus> lol 16:51:16 <|amethyst> lol, true 16:51:19 <10PleasingFungus> we'd give em a custom weapon type! like the flamberge 16:51:24 <09gammafunk> yep 16:51:24 <10PleasingFungus> unrands are allowed that 16:51:29 <09gammafunk> we've solved that type of problem before 16:51:34 <09gammafunk> it's autumn katana 16:51:41 bardiche/halberd seems just a bit *too* nasty 16:51:42 <09gammafunk> not autumn long sword 16:51:49 <10PleasingFungus> why don't we have a spring katana 16:51:58 or a fall katana 16:52:02 <10PleasingFungus> spring-loaded, ideally 16:52:05 <09gammafunk> because it's just too hot outside in spring for all that exertion 16:52:05 what god intended that season to be called 16:52:10 <10PleasingFungus> wow 16:52:14 <10PleasingFungus> bad takes coming out 16:52:18 <09gammafunk> need a winter hot cocoa mug 16:52:19 correct* 16:52:28 <|amethyst> "Spring surprise" 16:52:54 <08nicolae> potion unrand 16:53:18 <09gammafunk> I can see the shop gears turning in nicolae's head already 16:53:55 <10PleasingFungus> uh oh 16:54:23 <08nicolae> ⚙️⚙️⚙️ 16:54:38 <08nicolae> "what if there was a shop where you could buy gold" 16:54:39 oh gammafunk, is the source for the discord bridge hosted anywhere? I wanted to check something about it 16:54:41 <|amethyst> !haste (Cocoa, flavour) 16:55:03 flavored potions are bad |amethyst :^) 16:55:29 didn't gamma say he'd(?) check with someone? 16:55:35 <09gammafunk> my clone is here: https://github.com/gammafunk/discord-irc 16:55:39 missed it if so 16:55:44 <10PleasingFungus> anyway, very sorry if i was too harsh at the start of this discussion, |amethyst 16:55:51 oh no, misread, sorry 16:56:17 <|amethyst> @nicolae However funny that might be, IMO there's no way you could make that into a meaningful decision 16:56:19 <09gammafunk> but I am running it with two of those branches merged 16:56:34 <|amethyst> either the cost is greater than the reward, or else it is less 16:57:17 <|amethyst> @PleasingFungus no need to apologise, I was fully aware that my opinion would not be universal 16:57:19 <10PleasingFungus> a shop where you buy discount gold would be a funny way to place gold as a reward for some vault that wants to do so 16:57:42 <08nicolae> sadly the game does not support putting gold in a shop definition 😔 16:57:52 <10PleasingFungus> rip 16:58:07 that sounds like a bug to me 16:58:21 <09gammafunk> yeah, implement support for it 16:58:26 <09gammafunk> that way I can enjoy removing it 16:58:33 <08nicolae> i can't go around implementing things 16:58:35 <|amethyst> @nicolae Well, that seems like an oversight, however unlikely it might be that we would actually implement that 17:00:36 <09gammafunk> is there a way I can pre-emptively remove things? asking for a friend 17:19:02 <09hellmonk> If you really want to keep scythes why not give them the arbalest treatment of having a garbage special cased mindelay but a max delay that isn't totally awful 17:19:28 <09hellmonk> Like a halberd that caps at 1.0 or something 17:20:11 <10PleasingFungus> shrug 17:20:27 <10PleasingFungus> i'd rather not add more special cases 17:20:59 <09hellmonk> To be clear I think that would be worse than removing scythes but better than keeping them 17:23:44 <10PleasingFungus> what’s the goal? making players use scythes? 17:25:56 <09hellmonk> Making the item category not strictly worthless 17:28:20 Make it so that when you swing it there's a 1/10 chance you get the message "You feel like this weapon isn't really that effective." 17:28:44 <06advil> I wonder if it would work to simply have a way to reflavor items without making a new item type, e.g. a scythe but it’s really a glaive in all respects. Would even allow the return of hammers…though it wouldn’t necessarily be something we should use a lot 17:28:47 <12ebering> @advil do you have any reservations about your abyss-rune-detection 17:29:12 <12ebering> it lgtm and I was thinking of merging it along with min-depth 17:32:50 <10PleasingFungus> @advil think i'd want scythes to be halberds, probably 17:32:56 <10PleasingFungus> but otherwise i like the idea 17:33:01 <10PleasingFungus> as a sometimes thing 17:33:26 <06advil> I’m up for that, I don’t think it is too much of a giveaway based on my testing so far…but we’d find out. I have some reservations about whether I got all the right hooks for the detection check maybe. If you want to do it you could skip the tile commit which will conflict with PF’s runelight thing 17:33:41 <06advil> That was in response to ebering 17:33:42 <10PleasingFungus> also nicolae could use it to add the polearm shop. glaive-guisarme, bohemian ear-spoon 17:34:02 <10PleasingFungus> oops, sorry, didn't see you had a tile commit 17:35:07 <06advil> It is fairly minimal 17:35:31 <06advil> Tweaks the vaults that stick the tile next to an external wall mainly 17:36:48 <09gammafunk> would be helpful to call it something like a "war scythe" maybe, too 17:37:20 <09gammafunk> one of the reasons that scythes kind of works as a flavor weapon is that scythes really are horrible to use as actual weapons 17:37:34 <09gammafunk> but if it's just as good as a halberd, that's weird flavor-wise 17:38:04 <09gammafunk> alternatively give it a vaguely magical theme like we do for double/triple-swords 17:38:29 03ebering02 07* 0.29-a0-628-gba36221789: revert: unrewarding abyss 10(2 hours ago, 13 files, 68+ 111-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/ba3622178908 17:38:29 03advil02 {ebering} 07* 0.29-a0-629-gd66da3e29f: feat: abyssal rune detection 10(4 days ago, 3 files, 60+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/d66da3e29fc1 17:38:29 03advil02 {ebering} 07* 0.29-a0-630-g8e0c6649c8: fix: rewrite abyssal rune detection 10(3 days ago, 1 file, 67+ 34-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/8e0c6649c8e2 17:38:29 03advil02 {ebering} 07* 0.29-a0-631-gae2251da70: fix: messaging for leaving and missing the abyssal rune 10(3 days ago, 3 files, 7+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/ae2251da709f 17:38:29 03ebering02 07* 0.29-a0-632-g781b4ac09e: feat: force a minimum entry depth on the Abyss 10(39 minutes ago, 2 files, 13+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/781b4ac09eb4 17:39:25 <06advil> Oops, forgot I hadn’t squashed all that 17:39:53 <06advil> Oh well, I guess it’s a little tutorial on how not to do an abyss thing now 17:39:57 <06advil> Thanks! 17:40:03 <12ebering> it didn't have the autosquashing tags so I figure you meant the history as you wrote it 🙂 17:40:08 <09gammafunk> I'm deffo on team "need more scaling than A:5" 17:40:45 <12ebering> that's pretty easy but I didn't want to fuss with the pop tables 17:40:48 <09gammafunk> aye 17:42:20 <10PleasingFungus> gammafunk: think gamer intuition would be fine with scythes killing things. it feels good 17:42:39 <10PleasingFungus> lemem poke at abyss a lil 17:45:12 <09gammafunk> well we're not preventing scythes from killing things, I'm really talking about the name. It can have "scythe" in the name, but I think it's nice when there's a decent/fun/reasonable connection between what the weapon is and real life 17:45:21 <09gammafunk> like I said, I like the way double swords and triple swords do it 17:45:46 <09gammafunk> it's a horrible idea for how to make a weapon, but magic is the explanation, and that's a very goofy notion of a weapon 17:45:50 <10PleasingFungus> christ, i forgot abyss pop table is like 125 entries long 17:47:35 <10PleasingFungus> also apparently its spawn rate doesn't scale with depth? the more you know 17:48:04 <06advil> Hm, it definitely feels like it does 17:48:09 <09hellmonk> The abyss pop table is very funny 17:48:26 <06advil> Is it just implemented in a weird abyss.cc way? 17:48:34 <09hellmonk> yes iirc 17:48:42 <10PleasingFungus> lol 17:48:46 <09hellmonk> I don't remember the details 17:48:47 <10PleasingFungus> i shoulda known 17:49:06 <09gammafunk> possibly in part related to how abyss shifting occurs 17:49:45 <10PleasingFungus> // Place some monsters to keep the abyss party going. int num_monsters = 15 + you.depth * (1 + coinflip()); 17:49:50 <09hellmonk> lmao 17:50:10 <09hellmonk> 1 + coinflip() multiplying depth 17:50:21 <09hellmonk> What the fuck 17:50:22 <10PleasingFungus> do feel this is a misuse of coinflip 17:50:42 <10PleasingFungus> i mean, it's 1d2, but not the simplest way to put it 17:50:47 <09gammafunk> not sure why they didn't just use an appropriate random2 yeah 17:52:24 <05kate> i think in the distant past using coinflips like that was a lot more common, i remember a commit that changed a whole bunch of them to random2s instead 17:52:33 <05kate> that one must've survived... 17:53:28 <10PleasingFungus> wait a minute 17:54:03 <09gammafunk> having a lot of alternate names for some common function calls but where the alternate doesn't really warrant the increase in cognitive load seems a big older crawlcode style thing 17:54:10 <05kate> %git 9da1fa0942da 17:54:10 <04Cerebot> reaverb {wheals} * 0.15-a0-264-g9da1fa0942: Turn !coinflip() to coinflip() (8 years ago, 2 files, 2+ 2-) https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/9da1fa0942da 17:54:12 <05kate> this is a good one 17:54:13 <10PleasingFungus> while you have the teleport duration, the rate at which the abyss shifts increases by 5x?! 17:54:16 <10PleasingFungus> lol 17:54:25 <09gammafunk> excellent 17:54:27 <10PleasingFungus> (lol at old commit) 17:54:50 <09gammafunk> is that trying to teleport you by shift or something? 17:55:00 <10PleasingFungus> i don't know... 17:55:02 <09gammafunk> so it doesn't follow the usual teleport codepath 17:55:07 <09gammafunk> I think it might be 17:55:44 <09gammafunk> possibly avoiding weirdness with landing you near the border or something 17:56:25 <10PleasingFungus> no, this doesn't pre-empt the usual teleport codepath... 17:56:31 <09gammafunk> rip 17:56:32 <10PleasingFungus> it's not when you teleport 17:56:38 <10PleasingFungus> it's while you're waiting to teleport 17:56:42 <10PleasingFungus> the abyss shifts 5x faster 17:56:45 <09gammafunk> that's what I mean 17:56:52 <09gammafunk> like it's not going to trigger usual teleport stuff 17:56:56 <10PleasingFungus> also, should the deep abyss be 7 or 9 17:57:10 <09gammafunk> by shift, do you mean "the abyss rebuilds the level" type of shift? 17:57:16 <10PleasingFungus> no 17:57:19 <10PleasingFungus> i'm talking about noise 17:57:27 <10PleasingFungus> if i'm reading this right 17:57:27 <09gammafunk> yeah that is extremely weird 17:57:38 <10PleasingFungus> int delta = you.time_taken * (you.abyss_speed + 40) / 200; if (!have_passive(passive_t::slow_abyss)) delta *= 2; if (you.duration[DUR_TELEPORT]) delta *= 5; const double theta = abyssal_state.phase; double depth_change = delta * (0.2 + 2.8 * pow(sin(theta/2), 10.0)); abyssal_state.depth += depth_change; abyssal_state.phase += delta / 100.0; if (abyssal_state.phase > PI) 17:57:39 abyssal_state.phase -= PI; 17:57:40 <10PleasingFungus> the relevant code 17:58:06 <09gammafunk> hrm 17:58:10 <10PleasingFungus> could be wrong 17:58:16 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.29-a0-632-g781b4ac09e (34) 17:58:17 <09gammafunk> is depth like, actual depth? like youre abyss level? 17:58:18 <10PleasingFungus> no 18:00:25 Bit belated but I do agree that scythes are realistically very bad weapons. Source: have used scythes. 18:00:42 They're good for giving people ankle bruises, though. 18:01:37 flails aren't so great realistically either. they're agricultural tools for threshing grain 18:01:54 I didn't know that! That's cool. 18:02:04 <09gammafunk> so what I'm hearing is that dcss should just move towards the farm sim roguelike niche 18:02:28 ~~I thought CDDA already filled that niche~~ 18:02:33 that said, last time someone got all "be relistic" about this stuff we lost double and triple swords 18:02:43 claymores, anyone? 18:02:43 Those are okay exceptions 'cause they're funny 18:03:00 *realistic 18:03:11 I always figured flails were realistic weapons 'cause D&D 18:03:29 And things in D&D are... uh. Realistic. 18:03:30 07ontoclasm02 * 0.16-a0-1347-g8c852fd8e7: Add claymore tiles to UNUSED 10(8 years ago, 4 files, 0+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/8c852fd8e735 18:03:30 %git HEAD^{/claymore} 18:04:40 and yes, I've used a scythe as well. not much better for their intended use than they are as a weapon imo, although I admit the one I used probably needed sharpening badly 18:09:28 (btw I think it'd be okay if we just outright made scythes somewhat magic because of the connection to reapers/reaping souls) 18:09:49 <06advil> Aren’t they just something that requires a lot of skill to use well? 18:09:56 so they might not be great weapons but also not worthless 18:10:03 <06advil> In the real world case that is 18:11:00 it takes a bit of technique but it works fine 18:11:26 in the real world case they're for hacking your way through thick underbrush and such, technique and strength count 18:11:33 though I never was the one using it for an extended period of time, which is probably where the skill comes in 18:13:43 <10PleasingFungus> perryprog: https://acoup.blog/2019/06/07/collections-the-siege-of-gondor-part-v-just-flailing-about-flails/ has a good discussion of flails - ctrl-f for "what is a flail" 18:14:18 <12ebering> at what poitn is someone going to video themselves scything a chicken 18:14:23 <10PleasingFungus> lol 18:14:27 <10PleasingFungus> i'm hype 18:14:33 <10PleasingFungus> https://www.publicmedievalist.com/curious-case-weapon-didnt-exist/ is maybe a simpler link 18:16:16 oo, thank you 18:17:06 ebering I would've been about 10 feet from a chicken when I was using a scythe. Sorry to disappoint, but I didn't scythe it. 18:19:19 <10PleasingFungus> for context, ebering's comment was an old in-joke about a guy who, in an attempt to win an argument about dcss axes, chopped up a chicken with an axe 18:19:47 <10PleasingFungus> (please correct me if i'm misremembering) 18:20:03 <05kate> possibly the single greatest result of dcss's entire development history 18:20:07 <10PleasingFungus> very possibly 18:21:05 I'm sorry, what 18:23:12 I've personally seen a chicken beheaded with an axe, but it was subsequently butchered the usual way 18:23:23 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.29-a0-632-g781b4ac09e (34) 18:23:37 (we also got to see the origin of "running around like a chicken with its head cut off") 18:24:07 I always let my mom do that part. 18:24:12 (We kept chickens) 18:24:52 a friend of the family, in my case 18:25:02 <09gammafunk> here: https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?p=233462#p233462 18:25:18 <09gammafunk> probably saves some explanation, you sort of have to read the entire thread if you want the full experience 18:25:28 that's what I'm here for! 18:25:59 chickens and cows. dad once got a half a cow, already butchered; we didn't even get through the whole thing before the freezer he bought to store it broke down 18:26:16 <09gammafunk> should be noted that said chicken video originated about 1.5 pages of debate about medieval weapons 18:26:24 <09gammafunk> *after about 18:27:40 reminds me of those "classified military info leaked to win arguments" in a military sim game stories 18:27:51 War Thunder 18:28:45 <09gammafunk> secret tavern lore: I later encountered berder playing and asked him what he did with the chicken, and he claimed to have boiled and eaten it 18:29:43 <09hellmonk> What a sad end 18:29:49 <09hellmonk> Why would you boil it 18:30:34 I asked my mom and she says that's the most boring way to do it (worst tasting). Roasting is much better. 18:31:16 <09gammafunk> as you might expect, it was a weird conversation. He implied at one point that he didn't want to waste the chicken, so I asked him what he made with it 18:31:24 <09gammafunk> but he only replied that he "boiled it" 18:31:46 That's not hard, chicken doesn't really have a taste. It's only flavor comes from having stuff that's flavory on top of it. 18:32:06 <12ebering> chicken definitely does have a taste 18:32:53 <09gammafunk> I'm trying to figure out what "that's not hard" refers to 18:33:04 oh, I misread 18:33:15 I thought you said "he didn't want to taste the chicken" which is what I was replying to 18:33:51