00:00:00 also suggest renaming enslave to tempt, [spell]bind, dominate, reap, etc 00:27:06 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 00:59:48 <12e​bering> @nicolae detonating zombies does sound cool but would probably lead to micromanagement for aiming 01:00:43 New branch created: pull/1867 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1867 01:00:43 03RojjaCebolla02 {GitHub} 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1867 * 0.27-a0-886-g48d4e58: Remove reference to bugzilla 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 3+ 14-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/48d4e58a4e59 01:13:11 docs/develop/git feels like it has a pro-rebasing slant to it 01:13:27 merges, the silent majority! 01:13:43 <12e​bering> we are a rebase shop 01:24:21 and anti svn 01:24:26 which feels like being anti 1940s 01:24:41 sure you can do it, but no one's gonna fight ya on it 01:34:42 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.27-a0-885-g35c287b088 (34) 01:49:48 03ebering02 07* 0.27-a0-886-gbd7d8ad: Update Yred's description 10(5 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/bd7d8addc902 01:49:48 03sdynet02 {ebering} 07* 0.27-a0-887-gcab673c: Simplify and rename the Foxfire card 10(2 days ago, 3 files, 10+ 41-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/cab673c142ba 01:56:19 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.27-a0-885-g35c287b088 02:03:10 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.27-a0-887-gcab673c142 (34) 02:21:58 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.27-a0-887-gcab673c142 (34) 02:54:35 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.27-a0-887-gcab673c142 03:30:47 Fork (bcrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-a0-4116-g4a9585b5cb 03:41:21 Fork (bcadrencrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.03-228-g6577b29093 04:54:07 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 12:36:10 New branch created: pull/1868 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1868 12:36:10 03Shapermc02 {GitHub} 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1868 * 0.27-a0-884-g0d4efc5: New ecumenical altar vaults 10(18 hours ago, 1 file, 116+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/0d4efc50918f 12:57:42 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 13:06:14 <|amethyst> spicycebolla: The Subversion stuff there is probably there (in docs/develop/git) because DCSS used it for the first several years 13:09:48 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.27-a0-887-gcab673c (34) 13:12:39 I think I've deeply drunk the rebase koolaid from working on this project, can't really imagine any other way (as long as it doesn't entail force-pushing to a shared branch) 13:58:23 <05k​ate> @ebering re: bd7d8addc902, yred does still give increased piety for nonliving kills so possibly that should still be in the description? or yred should be changed to just give normal piety from nonliving kills, just depends if that bit of flavour is worth keeping at all i guess 14:00:08 <12e​bering> oh, hm. 14:06:04 <05k​ate> but maybe just having the holies be the case with noticeable bonus piety is better, for the most part gods have standardised piety for all the holinesses now at least 14:07:23 <05k​ate> (it's still a bit of a nightmare mess because each holiness has a different default chance to gain piety per kill or something, but those are at least consistent between gods for the most part now!) 14:16:14 <10P​leasingFungus> i slightly like the flavour but don't feel strongly 16:48:24 Could someone explain why eye of devastation can be affected by OTR but not Poisonous Vapours? 16:55:24 Yermak: floating eyes don't breathe 16:55:49 https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/35c287b088baf6ed7a0d3b4827b75d1974c91f7c/crawl-ref/source/mon-util.cc#L1019 counts them as slimes, and https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/35c287b088baf6ed7a0d3b4827b75d1974c91f7c/crawl-ref/source/mon-util.cc#L3478 says that slimes don't breathe 17:00:02 <05k​ate> oh, that does sound like a bug then? unbreathing things are still meant to be affected by poison clouds, it's just meph they're immune to 17:02:15 <03w​heals> no this was changed recently 17:02:20 <05k​ate> oh huh, i guess that got changed but it was described as a bugfix? 17:02:23 <05k​ate> %git e1f20c3b4 17:02:24 <04C​erebot> Heinrich Ody {advil} * 0.26-a0-1045-ge1f20c3: Fix unbreathing bug (4 months ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e1f20c3b445d 17:02:54 <05k​ate> definitely not a bug, i guess changing the behaviour is maybe fine but it should probably be communicated better now in that case 17:03:01 <03w​heals> i thought there was lore about pclouds being some kind of contact poison but that may have been learndb only 17:05:04 <05k​ate> i think that was the flavour for it yeah, unbreathing also granting miasma immunity now is a little weird to me too 17:05:47 <05k​ate> currently the cloud desc for meph does explicitly spell out the breathing check at least, miasma and poison don't 17:21:44 I wasn't exactly sure if it was a bug when I merged it, but at least a fairly unclear state of things that could be cleaner (and I couldn't find a lot of evidence that it *wasn't* a bug either, though I didn't think to check cloud descriptions) 17:27:18 <05k​ate> i can see the confusion yeah, i think "poison clouds are contact poison" was just how it was discussed in -dev in the past to justify not making them affect unbreathing things when unbreathing was initially added 17:27:21 <05k​ate> but personally i'd tend towards not wanting unbreathing to do more things than it previously did, since it's already a pretty weird mechanic 17:40:09 fair 17:40:15 I wonder if there's a way to do without it altogether? 17:41:13 btw one reason I was inclined to make the change to overall consistency (which I guess I didn't put in the relevant commit message) was that "miasma" as a name pretty strongly implies breathing 17:41:18 I guess it could be renamed instead 17:43:18 <05k​ate> possibly yeah, it's described as both miasma and "foul pestilence" in a lot of places 17:43:41 <05k​ate> which is more generically nasty-sounding 17:45:57 I wonder if it could be collapsed with nonliving 17:47:57 in fact maybe they were identical until dj? Perhaps an alive vp doesn't breathe 17:48:16 or there are weird cases for monsters 18:23:03 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.27-a0-887-gcab673c142 (34) 18:37:13 Are there any plans to rework absolute zero? 18:39:18 <03w​heals> grey draconian is unbreathing but alive 18:39:36 <10P​leasingFungus> cptant: hellmonk is threatening an abs0 replacement 18:39:48 <10P​leasingFungus> something involving sleep 18:43:17 Yeah, I have no idea what the development process was like so I just enter this discussion months after implementation, but I as a player see and use the Absolute zero spell and it's just......wrong on so many levels. 18:52:12 a0 is a pretty good design, better than what it replaced for sure 18:52:35 but L9 spells are pretty silly as a whole, and tricky to get right so that enough people are satisfied 18:53:36 the ice/hexes replacement he was discussing didn't seem like a great replacement and had its own issues, but as with anything in these sorts of designs, it's always possible that something good will emerge from it 18:59:53 I don't see how a0 is supposed to be good design. It is literally foolproof deletion of even the strongest foes. No spell in the game has ever had anywhere near that single target power. 19:01:04 In a vacuum you might look at other spells and think "hmmm firestorm or a0 what is a better spell?" Killing one thing surely or dealing massive damage to many things. 19:02:01 But that is not how the balance works. You are forming a state where both these spells exist and perfectly fit together. Classic Lvl 9's were insanely powerful but they had gaps where they weren't that great 19:02:25 If you keep adding spells that do fit those gaps you are powercreeping up substantially 19:03:06 single target power is not some overwhelming concern; vast majority of the real danger just doesn't come from this 19:03:27 this sounds much more like "in a vacuum" thinking if you consider that over anything else 19:03:47 fstorm is vastly safer to use and and kill things out of los, at edge of los, with complete safety etc 19:04:07 a0 has vastly less range, no out of los, no choice of target either for a lot of scenarios 19:04:16 That isn't true at all, creatures like the pan Lords form threats on their own 19:04:23 Now they are just deleted 19:04:35 pan lords can definitely be killed with total safety by firestorm 19:04:57 and again, look at extended deaths: are most deaths to pan lords? they aren't not even close 19:13:44 abszero still seems fine to me yeah, it *feels* very strong because wow you get to oneshot cerebov, but really is probably a bunch weaker than the other l9 spells (to whatever extent they can actually be compared reasonably) 19:13:55 Yeah you can kill them with 3 times as many casts 19:14:40 The problem is that you now have a state where both lvl 9 spells exists 19:15:40 that's extremely not a problem, if you're casting multiple different l9 spells in the same game then you could've won forever ago 19:16:44 That is an extreme simplification. With even 1 source of wizardry you can easily cast multiple lvl 9 spells before vaults 19:18:06 multiple L9s means you've trivialzed the game already, this was the case before a0 existed 19:19:32 Not to this extent, single powerful enemies were still a threat. 19:19:32 they are still a threat in that it's still possible for the player to make a mistake, which is also the case if you have a0 19:20:56 You can now get rid of the strongest enemy in the game in 1 cast, something that was literally impossible before. What spell deletes cerebov, orbs of fire or hell sentinels with even remotely the same amount of mp? 19:22:13 you can trill those strong enemies trivially with other spells, as we've been saying. Killing cerebov with one cast or two cast has been done many times with e.g. chain lightning, for example, which casts even less MP! 19:22:56 *costs 19:23:22 and s/trill/kill/ 19:24:27 you're not going to convince people with this line of reasoning, because you're so focused on what happens to one moster. It is possible to die to a single monster in late game crawl if you make mistakes 19:25:23 however most deaths happen due to interactions with multiple monsters, and even these strong single-target spells require you to allow those strong single monsters to act 19:25:52 and we definitely don't design them so that they're not that strong in concert, because the skill costs of getting 3+ schools to 20 or higher is so very high, and that strength just isn't necessary at all to win even with 15 runes 19:26:16 but for extended, it's going in the direction of being much harder 19:26:38 so it will eventually be the case that it's not so trivial to 15 runes by having one level nine spell etc 19:28:23 I do not understand how you say you can die to a single monster in late game if that monster has just been deleted 19:31:13 All such deaths involve player mistakes, same is true if you had firestorm; let the monster (e.g. pan lord) do something nasty at edge of los, out of range of a spell like a0 19:35:26 a0's range isn't low at all 19:42:55 Your argument is very weak because it applies to literally every spell imaginable. 19:46:16 a0's range is a lot lower than los-range, which is an important limitation 19:46:27 and yes, los/range limitations apply to every spell with those limitations 19:49:08 I wonder if people making these complaints have actually killed a pan lord with abs 0 19:49:43 I have to say it was extremely satisfying because it required a nice comb of tactics, positioning, and luck to actual pull off, similar with trj 19:49:46 *combo 19:50:18 I do get that a0 can feel anticlimactic though, I experienced that 19:51:30 yeah, I think that player feel aspect is a legit complaint 19:51:31 yeah, if anything i think the argument for changing abszero would be one based on ~gamefeel~, it can definitely feel underwhelming even if it's not actually stronger than other l9 spells 19:52:26 underwhelming to oneshot a big thing, that is 19:52:50 could also see lowering its range by one maybe, maybe have range scaling with spellpower. Would not be opposed to some big redesign either, but the idea hellmonk sketched for a replacement def. had issues, which he saw as well 19:53:41 people have talked about adding a delay on the kill too, which I guess would with that feel that instantenous death leads to 19:54:36 but you'd probably want to pick one of range or delay to "nerf" the spell, not both 19:58:10 and delay would have to be just very short, maybe you could randomize 0-2 turns after cast, or 1-3 turns if you wanted to be extreme. might need to make the monster slow/immobile during this 19:58:48 i guess delay makes it closer to "tornado but single-target" unless it's very short, yeah 20:34:07 some sort of petrify to death effect maybe 20:34:27 not literally petrify 21:19:21 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 22:45:53 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy