00:34:29 <10PleasingFungus> @nicolae charming name 00:34:45 <08nicolae> you're welcome 01:27:29 -!- Psymania_ is now known as Psymania 02:04:54 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: Crawl Development | Logs: http://s-z.org/crawl-dev/ | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general Crawl-related chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to a pastebin service, please. 02:05:09 -!- The topic of ##crawl is: Play Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup online now! Type ??servers for instructions. | http://crawl.develz.org | FooTV: http://termcast.develz.org - ??footv for instructions | See also ##crawl-offtopic 02:05:50 -!- wheals8 is now known as wheals 02:18:58 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.27-a0-679-g77a6b55cf3 (34) 03:30:49 Fork (bcrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-a0-4053-g610ae06132 03:46:15 Fork (bcadrencrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.03-196-gd4c2611de9 05:12:21 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 09:53:00 Webtiles server stopped. 09:53:08 Webtiles server started. 09:53:28 I cleared a tiny bit of space on cao, unfortunately I don't have time to do much else right now 09:55:53 gammafunk: if I'm not around one thing you may not be aware of is that the first thing to clear for quick results is cores in `/chroot/cores`, which run to as much as 1GB each; returns are now extremely diminishing for those but that still is most of what I cleared just now (3GB). You will need to su to access the directory because of the way permissions are set on it 10:56:56 advil: thanks, appreciate it. Do you just rm those or is there a dgl command for that one? 11:05:28 just rm 11:06:17 there might be a broken or non-enabled crontab script that removes those 13:06:01 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.27-a0-679-g77a6b55 (34) 14:11:54 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 14:33:52 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 15:36:08 would a patch to make Formicids able to Blade Hands and wear a shield at the same time be accepted? it seems weird to me that they can use two handed weapons with shields because of extra hands but can't blade hands with a shield 15:55:18 <12ebering> It's blade hands not blade hand 🙂 15:59:44 <12ebering> (So, no, such a patch probably would not be; both for my cheeky flavour remoark and also because of the technical headache associated with slot melding exceptions for forms currently( 16:00:40 Just turn them into doubly-effective blenders 16:37:53 I just think it's kind of lame for UC formicids since despite the extra hands there's no advantage at all to their UC over anybody elses 16:49:44 "It's blade hands not blade hand" actually there's code to make it "blade hand" if you sac hand! 16:50:04 re formicids, I actually looked into this flavor in a recent project on sorting out hand name nouns 16:50:45 formicids have four hand-pairs, each approximately equivalent to two hands 16:51:11 blade hands melds all your manipulator hands, regardless of the number 16:52:22 they use two-handed weapons because they are big and because of the hand-pair thing (I think, this part is still a bit hazy to me) 16:52:31 *use two-handed weapons with one hand-pair 16:53:43 03ebering02 07[i_snecko] * 0.27-a0-666-g6fc0f3d: Pull out some magic numbers in the poison formulas 10(35 minutes ago, 1 file, 33+ 15-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/6fc0f3d1f6dd 16:53:43 03ebering02 07[i_snecko] * 0.27-a0-667-gd4faa0c: Accelerate poison damage 10(34 minutes ago, 1 file, 5+ 5-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/d4faa0cd6367 16:53:43 03ebering02 07[i_snecko] * 0.27-a0-668-g8464e96: Give Naga Ritualists normal weapons (kate-) 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/8464e96d2825 16:58:47 then they should at least get an offhand punch or something when a shield is wielded 17:02:03 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy 17:07:18 advil: two hand-pairs, surely, not four? 17:07:49 yeah, sorry, two hand-pairs, each pair ~ two hands 17:07:55 er 17:08:03 each pair ~ one hand for most purposes 17:08:24 but, a little more flexible 17:10:17 nothing in the blade hands description indicates that it must change all hands, it just uses a the plural "hands" which means a minimum of 2 hands, which of course for any other species is all their hands 17:11:58 04Build failed for 08i_snecko @ 8464e96d 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/665891986 17:17:56 <10PleasingFungus> do vaguely think there's a gameplay argument here 17:18:08 <10PleasingFungus> going back to this idea of equivalence in terms of slot merging 17:18:09 <10PleasingFungus> idk tho 17:21:36 aside from technical issues which is part of what I would theoretically be looking into patching, it goes like this: 17:21:36 one of the big formicid advantages is that they get to do things that normally take two hands and still wield a shield 17:21:36 blade hands normally takes two hands 17:21:36 thus, formicids should be able to use blade hands while still holding a shield 17:21:36 this is the argument from a gameplay perspective, and it doesn't do anything to contradict established lore as far as I know 18:17:46 it's more that blade hands takes as many hands as you have, it actually is fine with 1 under sac hand 18:19:12 fwiw I think that is more of a flavor argument though 18:19:28 a gameplay argument would be something like, Fo blade hands needs a buff for 18:19:32 reasons X Y Z 18:20:15 or, an incentive for fo to use blade hands more than they do (whatever base rate that is) would create interesting gameplay 18:23:50 hm, there are sometimes odd fluctuations in cao chroot disk space that I don't fully understand 18:23:58 gammafunk I don't suppose you did anything? 18:24:08 nope 18:24:54 this is an increase (of >1GB) which is good, but what can randomly appear can (I assume) randomly disappear 18:24:58 definitely seen this before on there 18:25:30 I don't *think* it is anything to do with ttyrec encoding, that shouldn't be nearly this big 19:07:38 <08Lasty> I'm not loving delvers. 19:09:55 <08Lasty> It feels like there's a lot of room for the start to be ridiculously unsurvivable, even w/ the provided tools 19:10:38 <08Lasty> and the background has a tendency to eliminate all the early portals 19:13:44 <08Lasty> !lg * --de / won s=species 19:13:46 <04Cerebot> 671/42970 games for * (--de): 60/1351x Minotaur [4.44%], 55/3170x Gnoll [1.74%], 53/8281x Octopode [0.64%], 44/3192x Demonspawn [1.38%], 35/1537x Troll [2.28%], 33/1506x Naga [2.19%], 31/874x Ghoul [3.55%], 30/1972x Deep Dwarf [1.52%], 27/1422x Palentonga [1.90%], 26/1777x Felid [1.46%], 26/4249x Kobold [0.61%], 24/701x Merfolk [3.42%], 24/1228x Hill Orc [1.95%], 18/585x Gargoyle [3.08%], 17/792x... 19:13:56 <08Lasty> !lg * --de / won s=species o=% 19:13:58 <04Cerebot> 671/42970 games for * (--de): 2/4x Centaur [50.00%], 6/25x Green Draconian [24.00%], 4/25x Red Draconian [16.00%], 3/19x Purple Draconian [15.79%], 4/30x White Draconian [13.33%], 2/21x Grey Draconian [9.52%], 2/26x Pale Draconian [7.69%], 2/29x Black Draconian [6.90%], 1/17x Yellow Draconian [5.88%], 60/1351x Minotaur [4.44%], 13/298x Halfling [4.36%], 31/874x Ghoul [3.55%], 15/435x Ogre [3.45%]... 19:14:12 <08Lasty> !lg * --de / won s=species o=-% 19:14:13 <04Cerebot> 671/42970 games for * (--de): 0/843x Draconian [0.00%], 12/2295x Vampire [0.52%], 26/4249x Kobold [0.61%], 53/8281x Octopode [0.64%], 12/990x Formicid [1.21%], 44/3192x Demonspawn [1.38%], 17/1186x Spriggan [1.43%], 15/1040x Deep Elf [1.44%], 26/1777x Felid [1.46%], 13/886x Vine Stalker [1.47%], 30/1972x Deep Dwarf [1.52%], 55/3170x Gnoll [1.74%], 13/730x Human [1.78%], 27/1422x Palentonga [1.90%... 19:22:29 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.27-a0-679-g77a6b55cf3 (34) 19:33:55 <10PleasingFungus> ah, sorry to hear that! i find them a lot of fun - it’s a distinctive and thrilling escape to the surface 19:34:31 <10PleasingFungus> agreed that they can sometimes be un winnable, but to greater or lesser extent that’s true of all crawl characters! 19:34:43 <10PleasingFungus> lots of room for luck 19:35:09 Lot of Wrong about early shafts on the subreddit recently. :-( 19:35:33 <10PleasingFungus> heh 19:35:56 <10PleasingFungus> this specifically does make me sad 19:36:36 <10PleasingFungus> not sure how it’d be fixable tho - disable portal announcement and timer until you ascend to at least the floor above? 19:37:08 <10PleasingFungus> (‘until you ascend to d:1’ has some weird incentives - makes you incentivized to skip the floor) 19:37:29 <10PleasingFungus> could still trigger portals when dipping up and down, but slightly less likely 19:38:04 <10i-x, antinomian metamorph> it's fine to not see early portals since the early portals are antique jank anyway 19:39:04 <10PleasingFungus> people love jank! maybe 19:39:04 <10PleasingFungus> also i strongly suspect the strike through gimmick interacts badly with the irc bot :p 19:42:15 alright, I'll restate my argument for formicid blade hands with shield in terms of gameplay choices 19:42:16 one of the big advantages of Formicid is their ability to use a two handed weapon and a shield simultaneously 19:42:16 the equivalent for unarmed would be getting an offhand punch even with a shield as well as being able to use a shield with blade hands 19:42:16 since formicids can't do either of the above, their 4 hands advantage doesn't do them any good if they choose to go unarmed 19:42:16 thus there is no reason to go unarmed on a formicid when you could instead use a two handed weapon that also has some secondary benefit (reach, cleaving, ranged, etc.) 19:42:25 <10i-x, antinomian metamorph> (a̶c̶t̶u̶a̶l̶l̶y̶,̶ ̶s̶i̶n̶c̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶i̶r̶c̶b̶o̶t̶ ̶d̶o̶e̶s̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶s̶e̶e̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶a̶t̶ ̶a̶l̶l̶,̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶'̶v̶e̶ ̶o̶n̶l̶y̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶v̶i̶n̶c̶e̶d̶ ̶m̶e̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶f̶i̶n̶d̶ ̶u̶n̶i̶c̶o̶d̶e̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶m̶a̶k̶e̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶w̶o̶r̶s̶e̶.̶) 19:46:10 <10i-x, antinomian metamorph> (̶u̶n̶a̶r̶m̶e̶d̶ ̶n̶o̶n̶-̶c̶l̶a̶w̶/̶t̶e̶n̶t̶a̶c̶l̶e̶ ̶h̶i̶t̶-̶t̶e̶x̶t̶ ̶r̶e̶f̶e̶r̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶p̶u̶n̶c̶h̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶p̶u̶m̶m̶e̶l̶i̶n̶g̶,̶ ̶a̶n̶t̶ ̶l̶i̶m̶b̶s̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶m̶o̶s̶t̶l̶y̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶c̶a̶r̶r̶y̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶g̶o̶o̶d̶)̶ 19:50:45 <08wormsofcan> whiteshark1: this is true but is not dependent on blade hands 19:50:51 <08wormsofcan> by your argument, all forms that meld the shield slot should not meld shield slots for formicids 19:51:12 <08wormsofcan> e.g. formicids should have shields in spider/ice/dragon form 19:52:07 from a pure gameplay perspective yes but from a lore perspective that doesn't work 19:52:19 blade hands is the one exception in that lore and gameplay intersect such that being able to keep your shield makes sense 19:52:28 <08wormsofcan> yes, but you're trying to argue from a gameplay perspective 19:52:34 <08wormsofcan> that's why I'm pointing this out 19:52:34 I'm trying to argue both 19:52:40 I was asked to phrase it in gameplay terms 19:52:41 so i did 19:52:53 <10i-x, antinomian metamorph> (̶c̶l̶e̶a̶r̶l̶y̶ ̶t̶i̶m̶e̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶d̶e̶-̶d̶e̶m̶o̶n̶i̶f̶y̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶d̶e̶n̶s̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ ̶s̶h̶i̶e̶l̶d̶)̶ 19:52:55 <08wormsofcan> well, you can see why the argument fails in gameplay terms 19:53:18 I don't believe it fails 19:53:48 <08wormsofcan> the argument fails because it doesn't depend on blade hands specifically 19:54:26 <08wormsofcan> if the end goal is for formicids to have a shield with blade hands, your argument suggests that formicids should also have a shield in other shield melding forms 19:55:02 again from a pure gameplay perspective yes but from a lore perspective those forms change your whole body so they no longer have the extra hands 19:55:18 blade hands does not change your whole body nor does it necessarily need to change all hands 19:55:22 <08wormsofcan> there's a lot of things that don't make sense from a lore perspective 19:55:38 <08wormsofcan> octopodes don't have 8 blade hand attacks 19:56:35 yes because blade hands only changes two manipulators 19:56:35 <08wormsofcan> and saying "blade hands does not change your whole body nor does it necessarily need to change all hands" is exactly the kind of thing that isn't actually justified by lore 19:56:39 <10i-x, antinomian metamorph> (would have made for a good unique, do any really have tmut outside of bai suzhen's semi-cheating?) 19:57:13 <08wormsofcan> the goal of design is not to have gameplay and lore be synchronized 19:58:13 uh, I think to some extent it is actually 19:58:30 like fire creatures having fire resistance 19:58:40 and tentacles creatures constricting 19:59:33 and you are wrong about it not being justified by lore 20:01:34 <10i-x, antinomian metamorph> (̶t̶h̶e̶r̶e̶ ̶w̶e̶r̶e̶ ̶l̶o̶r̶e̶ ̶r̶e̶a̶s̶o̶n̶s̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶r̶P̶o̶i̶s̶ ̶s̶p̶r̶i̶g̶g̶a̶n̶ ̶d̶r̶u̶i̶d̶s̶ ̶(̶s̶w̶a̶m̶p̶-̶m̶n̶i̶p̶u̶l̶a̶t̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶s̶u̶m̶m̶o̶n̶e̶r̶)̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶g̶a̶m̶e̶p̶l̶a̶y̶ ̶r̶e̶a̶s̶o̶n̶s̶ ̶(̶d̶o̶e̶s̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶p̶o̶i̶s̶o̶n̶ ̶s̶e̶l̶f̶ 20:01:34 ̶r̶a̶p̶i̶d̶l̶y̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶ ̶c̶a̶l̶l̶e̶d̶ ̶d̶r̶a̶g̶o̶n̶s̶), and yet it was still cut because intuitiveness is an indefinite debate) 20:05:18 <08wormsofcan> saying that "the goal of design is not to have gameplay and lore be synchronized" means the end goal of design is not to have gameplay slavishly adhere to lore 20:05:55 <08wormsofcan> for example hep ancestors are all humans regardless of your race and can do things your race can't do 20:06:07 <08wormsofcan> having blade hands allow shields falls in this category 20:06:43 I agree, but here is a change that could be made which would be better gameplay (incentivizing Formicids to use UC with a form which normally would defeat the purpose of playing a Formicid) and would also make sense with lore 20:06:44 it's a win win 20:09:11 <10i-x, antinomian metamorph> (̶t̶h̶e̶r̶e̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶a̶ ̶l̶o̶n̶g̶ ̶h̶i̶s̶t̶o̶r̶y̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶s̶i̶s̶t̶e̶n̶c̶y̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶g̶a̶m̶e̶p̶l̶a̶y̶ ̶t̶a̶k̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶h̶i̶g̶h̶e̶r̶ ̶p̶r̶i̶o̶r̶i̶t̶y̶ ̶o̶v̶e̶r̶ ̶o̶b̶s̶c̶u̶r̶e̶ ̶c̶u̶t̶e̶ ̶i̶n̶t̶e̶r̶a̶c̶t̶i̶o̶n̶s̶,̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶a̶d̶d̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶n̶i̶c̶h̶e̶ 20:09:11 ̶t̶h̶i̶n̶g̶s̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶c̶o̶v̶e̶r̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶g̶aps instead of warping what already exists) 20:09:29 <08wormsofcan> statue form exists, works well with UC, and allows shields 20:09:44 <08wormsofcan> so I don't see how giving blade hands shields has a notable benefit 20:10:01 <10i-x, antinomian metamorph> (̶a̶l̶s̶o̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶)̶ 20:10:02 <08wormsofcan> and again there are also other shieldless forms that would encourage shields 20:10:12 <08wormsofcan> er, UC, not shields 20:11:19 the notable benefit is that bladehands outdamages statue form 20:11:37 tested it in wizmode the other day 20:11:46 and also doesn't slow you 20:12:13 <08wormsofcan> so you're saying that currently, formicids with statue form don't train UC? 20:12:14 <10i-x, antinomian metamorph> (̶y̶e̶s̶,̶ ̶t̶r̶a̶d̶e̶-̶o̶f̶f̶s̶ ̶e̶x̶i̶s̶t̶.̶)̶ 20:12:39 <08wormsofcan> because again, my argument is since statue form allows both UC and shields, formicids do have an existing incentive to train UC 20:12:49 <08wormsofcan> and shieldless forms also encourage training UC 20:14:08 no the last part is incorrect because a formicid is not incentivized to use those at all because it sacrifices one of their big advantages 20:14:08 shieldless forms do not encourage UC training for formicids because they aren't incentivized to use them in the first place 20:15:08 the statue form argument is less relevant because a formicid could still choose to use a two handed weapon while statue forming 20:15:18 <08wormsofcan> so what do you train on a formicid transmuter at the start of the game? 20:15:25 I wouldn't play one 20:16:13 <08wormsofcan> ok so your actual argument is "a formicid that has found a shield and hasn't trained transmutations has no incentive to train UC" 20:16:58 I've already stated my argument very clearly 20:17:13 <08wormsofcan> well, the argument you've stated is false 20:17:37 lol 20:17:40 <08wormsofcan> since FoTm/shieldless forms and statue form clearly encourage formicids to train UC 20:18:38 <08wormsofcan> do you also not play FoWn on the offchance you only get a book with forms? 20:18:47 good god I hope you're not actually one of hte devs 20:20:21 <08wormsofcan> I have bad news 20:21:07 <10i-x, antinomian metamorph> (̶I̶ ̶f̶i̶n̶d̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶k̶i̶n̶d̶a̶ ̶f̶u̶n̶n̶y̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶d̶e̶v̶s̶h̶i̶p̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶m̶o̶r̶e̶ ̶v̶i̶s̶i̶b̶l̶e̶ ̶o̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶d̶i̶s̶c̶o̶r̶d̶ ̶e̶x̶c̶e̶p̶t̶ ̶I̶ ̶d̶o̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶h̶a̶v̶e̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶y̶e̶t̶)̶ 20:23:24 let's be clear: once you're in game you use whatever means you have to survive and win, so if you did pick a FoTm you would no doubt use the forms to get through the early game and possibly keep using them due to prior skill investment 20:23:24 that being said, there is neither a gameplay reason nor a lore reason for formicids to lose one of their big advantages when using blade hands 20:24:49 <08wormsofcan> well, there is a gameplay reason 20:24:55 <08wormsofcan> that's how blade hands is coded 20:25:50 that's not a gameplay reason 20:25:50 that's a coding reason 20:27:46 <08wormsofcan> it's a coding reason which leads to better gameplay by simplifying how blade hands works 20:28:36 <10i-x, antinomian metamorph> (̶a̶l̶s̶o̶ ̶h̶i̶s̶t̶o̶r̶i̶c̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ ̶s̶p̶e̶a̶k̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶c̶o̶d̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶r̶e̶a̶s̶o̶n̶s̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶m̶o̶r̶e̶ ̶p̶e̶r̶t̶i̶n̶e̶n̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶n̶ ̶a̶l̶l̶ ̶o̶t̶h̶e̶r̶ ̶r̶e̶a̶s̶o̶n̶s̶ ̶w̶h̶e̶n̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶c̶o̶m̶e̶s̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶a̶ ̶v̶o̶l̶u̶n̶t̶e̶e̶r̶ ̶p̶r̶o̶j̶e̶c̶t̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶ 20:28:36 ̶d̶a̶i̶l̶y̶ ̶p̶r̶e̶s̶s̶u̶r̶e̶s̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶i̶n̶fighting) 20:28:47 what? that's like arguing that if formicids hadn't already been implemented, then they shouldn't be because "using two handed weapons prevents you from using a shield, that's how it's coded and it creates better gameplay because it simplifies how using two handed weapons works" 20:30:32 <08wormsofcan> so your argument is that "because we added a bit of complexity code wise, we should add more"? 20:31:41 no, I already gave my argument above, now I'm attacking the idea that because something adds a little complexity it's somehow bad for gameplay 20:31:41 but the idea that any complexity = bad does explain a lot of changes that have happened 20:31:45 <08wormsofcan> (also the handedness complexity already existed in the game before formicids existed) 20:33:19 <10i-x, antinomian metamorph> (̶a̶t̶ ̶s̶o̶m̶e̶ ̶p̶o̶i̶n̶t̶ ̶o̶n̶e̶ ̶w̶o̶u̶l̶d̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶n̶k̶ ̶p̶e̶o̶p̶l̶e̶ ̶w̶o̶u̶l̶d̶ ̶l̶e̶a̶r̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶n̶g̶s̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶d̶o̶n̶e̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶ ̶d̶e̶v̶s̶,̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶ ̶a̶g̶a̶i̶n̶s̶t̶ ̶d̶e̶v̶s̶)̶ 20:35:00 yeah I realize I'm killing my chances of ever being able to contribute anything with my attitude here but I'm pretty annoyed that an idea that I was offering to try and code myself is being outright rejected for reasons that I don't think are very good 20:36:13 <08wormsofcan> don't worry, you're not the first person 20:37:32 I don't know if that's suppoosed to make me feel any better or not 20:37:34 but hey it's the internet so in the future I can just come in under a different username if I have a different proposal 20:40:21 <08r-i> (̶a̶n̶y̶b̶o̶d̶y̶ ̶w̶h̶o̶ ̶c̶o̶m̶e̶s̶ ̶m̶o̶r̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶n̶ ̶o̶n̶c̶e̶ ̶t̶e̶n̶d̶s̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶b̶e̶c̶o̶m̶e̶ ̶r̶e̶c̶o̶g̶n̶i̶z̶a̶b̶l̶e̶,̶ ̶t̶b̶h̶.̶)̶ 20:43:22 <10PleasingFungus> ah 20:43:22 <10PleasingFungus> this got way more acrimonious than was really needed 20:43:45 <10PleasingFungus> whiteshark1: i don't think you're killing your chances for anything and i really hope you don't take this rejection by one person personally or badly 20:44:55 <10PleasingFungus> i think there is a good argument that, in general, simple is better, and that anything that is more complex does need special justification 20:45:29 <10PleasingFungus> but i don't think it's absurd to claim that fo using blade hands + shield could justify a little bit of extra complexity, and i don't see any reason why that would need to line up with the behaviour of extremely different forms like spider or dragon 20:46:00 okay I'm glad to hear one of you guys can see my point 20:46:11 I was actually very surprised that it didn't work that way already 20:46:48 I want to know whether it's worth my time to try and code this or not, who do I need to convince in order to have a shot of such a patch being merged 20:51:51 <10PleasingFungus> uh... me or advil or any of a few other people 20:52:12 <10PleasingFungus> i guess two questions here: 20:52:35 <10PleasingFungus> (1) will it be intuitive to players that fo blade hands won’t merge shields? 20:52:43 <03i-x, scarred scourge> (̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶c̶y̶n̶i̶c̶a̶l̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶s̶i̶s̶t̶e̶n̶t̶ ̶a̶n̶s̶w̶e̶r̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶l̶o̶o̶k̶ ̶t̶h̶r̶o̶u̶g̶h̶ ̶g̶i̶t̶ ̶s̶t̶a̶t̶s̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶h̶i̶s̶t̶o̶r̶y̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶s̶e̶e̶ ̶w̶h̶o̶e̶v̶e̶r̶'̶s̶ ̶a̶c̶t̶u̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ ̶b̶o̶t̶h̶e̶r̶e̶d̶ ̶a̶d̶d̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶n̶g̶s̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ 20:52:44 ̶p̶a̶s̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶r̶e̶e̶ ̶m̶o̶n̶t̶h̶s̶)̶ 20:53:03 <10PleasingFungus> @i-x, scarred scourge if you keep this up i’m going to kick you from the discord 20:53:06 <10PleasingFungus> :p 20:53:17 <10PleasingFungus> we don’t need more cynicism! or any really 20:53:24 <10PleasingFungus> it’s a game, for heaven’s sake 20:53:50 <03i-x, scarred scourge> I was going to say that included the two names just offered up, that gimmick just takes too long 20:55:04 <10PleasingFungus> (2) how wide ranging are the code changes needed to support this? are there ui or spell or form description changes needed in additional to the functional changes? 20:55:04 (1) I think intuitively it already seems like it should work that way like I said above, but I think making an edit to the description of blade hands to the effect of "transforms two of your primary manipulators" might help 20:55:04 oh I guess that answers 2 already 20:55:25 I need to look at how handedness is already handled 20:55:53 I'm assuming that Formicids have a unique handedness attribute that blade hands could check for when deciding whether to merge shield 20:55:59 <10PleasingFungus> (3) will this create more enjoyable gameplay/more interesting decisions? i’d expect that most fotm already use shields, since it’s very cheap to do so - as such, is it interesting for fo to specifically be extra good with bh, relative to other races? 20:59:00 <10PleasingFungus> > "transforms two of your primary manipulators" this actually makes me fairly worried. it seems harder for players to understand than the current wording, just to cover this new special case, and it raises new questions - how do octopodes work? 20:59:22 <10PleasingFungus> i'd also wonder whether the spell description itself is all that needs to be changed, or if there's other associated UI code, messaging when you cast the spell or it wears off, messaging when you can't wield something due to having blades for hands, that sort of thing 20:59:24 I thought it was specified already that octopodes already only have two primary tentacles 20:59:46 <10PleasingFungus> weirdly, i think that's not the lore? let me check 20:59:53 <10PleasingFungus> advil was looking into this recently 21:00:55 <10PleasingFungus> ah, ok, according to the manual, octopodes actually do a similar thing to formicids in that they manipulate objects with pairs of tentacles 21:00:55 (3) I think it would open up going UC + transmutations as a competitive option for formicids since as said before it wouldn't be sacrificing their biggest racial advantage to doso 21:00:55 oh really? 21:00:55 <10PleasingFungus> let me find the relevant text 21:00:55 <03i-x, scarred scourge> http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/docs/crawl_manual.rst#l1831 21:01:15 <10PleasingFungus> > Octopodes have eight tentacle-shaped legs, and need four of them to move. > While a tentacle lacks fingers, two tentacles are a rough equivalent of a > human's arm where item manipulation is concerned - including wielding > two-handed weapons with four. 21:01:22 <10PleasingFungus> ty r-i! 21:01:26 <10PleasingFungus> you won the race 🙂 21:01:37 <05kate> don't ask how they can constrict up to 8 things though 21:01:42 <10PleasingFungus> yes 😛 21:01:44 <10PleasingFungus> unclear how important this lore is given that, uh 21:01:47 <10PleasingFungus> i'm not sure any players know it? 21:01:51 <10PleasingFungus> or that it's communicated in game in any way? 21:01:55 <03i-x, scarred scourge> at least one thing is constricted with the beak. 21:02:01 <10PleasingFungus> isn't that squids? 21:02:12 <10PleasingFungus> oh, i'm wrong 21:02:12 <10PleasingFungus> huh 21:02:25 <10PleasingFungus> fr: give octopodes a peck attack aux 21:02:56 <05kate> i feel like they did have beaks once upon a time 21:02:57 if octpodes are the only problem for the "primary manipulator" phrasing, could it just be changed that they have two primary tentacles which are basically just 1 hand each 21:03:14 as you said it doesn't seem anybody knows this anyway 21:03:16 <05kate> %git 3bfc4a687e31b612 21:03:17 <04Cerebot> elliptic * 0.10-a0-3026-g3bfc4a6: Remove beak from octopodes. (9 years ago, 2 files, 4+ 1-) https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/3bfc4a687e31 21:03:34 <10PleasingFungus> maybe? i don't think that's the only problem for the "primary manipulator" phrasing, though - I think that's just much less clear in every case but this new exciting corner case of formicid blade hands 21:03:34 and it has no gameplay effect to my knowledge 21:03:41 <10PleasingFungus> right now it's... 21:04:17 <10PleasingFungus> Causes long, scythe-shaped blades to grow from the caster's hands, increasing melee damage significantly. While transformed, any equipped weapons are melded, and casting spells becomes somewhat more difficult. 21:04:29 <10PleasingFungus> this is clear and easy to understand, if incomplete (doesn't mention shields anywhere, heh!) 21:04:56 <10PleasingFungus> but "blade hands turns your hands into blades" is easy to understand. "blade hands turns two of your primary manipulators into blades" is baffling 21:05:02 technically that's confusing for octopodes and felids who have no hands at all 21:05:07 <10PleasingFungus> sure! 21:05:39 so how about "blade hands turns two of your hands (or equivalent) into blades" 21:06:46 or "(or equivalent manipulators)" 21:06:46 <03i-x, scarred scourge> Limber in shape, Vine Stalkers are anthropomorphic masses of thick vines. They possess a once-humanoid core, parasitised moments before death by the magical vines. 21:06:46 <10PleasingFungus> heh, yes 21:07:00 <10PleasingFungus> i think what you would want to do here is embed some lua into the spell description, and have it produce different descriptions for strange species 21:07:00 <03i-x, scarred scourge> (...can't quite tell if I'd argue whatever density of vines there is also a thing or not) 21:07:18 <10PleasingFungus> i think it's supposed to be puppeteering a humanoid husk arm? 21:07:19 <03i-x, scarred scourge> ah, yes, the one magic solution for all edge-cases, reading funny messages 21:07:19 <10PleasingFungus> idk 21:08:07 and adding something about the shield being melded too 21:09:08 <08wormsofcan> "this spell transforms some limbs of the caster, typically hands, into scythes. any weapon, gloves or shield worn will be melded" 21:09:53 <10PleasingFungus> oh, doesn't mention gloves either! great point 21:11:05 <10PleasingFungus> whiteshark1: one PR that would be accepted is a PR to clean up the existing blade hands description for the existing functionality, maybe doing some deep lua magic for per-species descriptions. i don't remember if you.hands() is exposed through lua but you could be the one to add that! 21:11:18 <10PleasingFungus> and that'd put us on a more solid footing to discuss other hypothetical changes 21:12:36 alright, I'll look into that 21:13:26 <10PleasingFungus> let me know if you have any questions - i'd be happy to help 🙂 21:15:40 <08wormsofcan> beastly appendage uses the limbs tech so you should be able to copy that 21:17:11 <10PleasingFungus> ooh, yeah, i didn't know that. great suggestion 21:18:26 <08wormsofcan> actually it looks like advil hasn't touched that yet because it explicitly references race 21:18:26 <13due> i find it hilarious that octopodes still are in the game 21:27:20 where do I find you.hands 21:30:06 finding a lot of hands_act 21:30:49 oh maybe that is what I'm looking for 21:31:55 <10PleasingFungus> maybe! i'm bad at remembering names 21:32:00 <10PleasingFungus> they're great! 21:40:44 <03i-x, scarred scourge> octopodes have a coherent trade-off 21:40:48 <03i-x, scarred scourge> now, felids, 21:51:59 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.27-a0-680-g3a15de6: Pull back on Palentongas 10(9 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/3a15de605649 21:51:59 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.27-a0-681-g0c81a3c: Swap Dr/Pa in NG (TheMeInTeam) 10(2 minutes ago, 2 files, 4+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/0c81a3c1c342 22:02:23 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.27-a0-681-g0c81a3c1c3 (34) 22:09:11 04Build failed for 08master @ 0c81a3c1 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/666516344 22:12:13 <06advil> which thing? 22:12:24 <08wormsofcan> description for beastly appendage 22:12:27 <06advil> definitely have not succeeded in getting rid of all species references 22:12:30 <08wormsofcan> it checks if the player species is octopode 22:12:33 <06advil> ah yeah 22:12:47 <06advil> I haven't done any lua stuff if it's there 22:13:13 <06advil> that should really be conditioned on the tentacle arms mut though 22:13:56 <06advil> also, yeah, my conclusion was that op walking/manipulating lore is carefully retrofitted to head all sorts of "why can't they do this" questions 22:25:39 <10PleasingFungus> beware the tentacle lore cost 22:25:59 <10PleasingFungus> did you have an opinion on the great fo blade hands debate? 22:31:57 I think I've figured this out 22:32:32 how to add info about hands in the right place and put in a lua function in the spells.txt to check it 22:35:44 -!- Psymania_ is now known as Psymania 22:40:44 <10PleasingFungus> sweet! 23:26:26 -!- Discord|2 is now known as Discord|