00:05:39 shield penalty calculations were recently changed in trunk, right? I just noticed that my spriggan with 0 shields skill is getting no EV penalty from a buckler. Is that correct? 00:15:03 <10PleasingFungus> the only change was to melee/ranged attack delay 00:15:15 <10PleasingFungus> EV and spellcasting failure were unchanged. i think 00:15:36 <10PleasingFungus> %git 0b64aa269c06c2cae1bb2bbc505395ffc4158dcf 00:15:37 <04Cerebot> ebering * 0.27-a0-141-g0b64aa2: Adjust and derandomize shield delay penalty (10 days ago, 1 file, 3+ 11-) https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/0b64aa269c06 00:15:52 <10PleasingFungus> yep, that was it g-flex. the EV thing is unrelated 00:16:29 Thanks, any idea what's going on then? The character has 30 EV with or without the buckler, with no skill, and Spriggans have worse penalties than most races. 00:34:39 <10PleasingFungus> what are your stats like? iirc those also have an impact 00:43:17 New branch created: cursor_optimization (18 commits) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/tree/cursor_optimization 00:43:18 03PleasingFungus02 07[cursor_optimization] * 0.27-a0-278-g2ec4beb: Remove amulets of inaccuracy 10(4 hours ago, 23 files, 29+ 88-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/2ec4beb6df02 00:43:18 03PleasingFungus02 07[cursor_optimization] * 0.27-a0-279-gecbd474: Make Ash use ?id instead of ?rc 10(3 hours ago, 2 files, 12+ 12-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/ecbd474f21b3 00:43:18 03PleasingFungus02 07[cursor_optimization] * 0.27-a0-280-g99aadb2: Uncurse everything when leaving Ash 10(3 hours ago, 1 file, 19+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/99aadb278c6e 00:43:18 03PleasingFungus02 07[cursor_optimization] * 0.27-a0-281-g6398fea: Remove negative-plus jewellery 10(3 hours ago, 2 files, 0+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/6398fea244ba 00:43:18 03PleasingFungus02 07[cursor_optimization] * 0.27-a0-282-gc24feab: Remove cursed vault items 10(3 hours ago, 3 files, 15+ 15-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/c24feabe0526 00:43:18 03PleasingFungus02 07[cursor_optimization] * 0.27-a0-283-g57096d0: Don't glow up cursed items 10(2 hours ago, 1 file, 0+ 12-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/57096d096bf1 00:43:18 03PleasingFungus02 07[cursor_optimization] * 0.27-a0-284-g037c8d2: Make curse status always known 10(86 minutes ago, 21 files, 50+ 252-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/037c8d2ff2df 00:43:18 03PleasingFungus02 07[cursor_optimization] * 0.27-a0-285-g44ae3e8: Don't generate items cursed 10(71 minutes ago, 26 files, 604+ 778-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/44ae3e8491d3 00:43:18 03PleasingFungus02 07[cursor_optimization] * 0.27-a0-286-g90150aa: Uncurse all items 10(47 minutes ago, 3 files, 6+ 5-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/90150aa5ba86 00:43:18 03PleasingFungus02 07[cursor_optimization] * 0.27-a0-287-g3730d02: Fix a hint 10(45 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/3730d0259fe8 00:43:18 ... and 8 more commits 00:55:17 New branch created: pull/1723 (18 commits) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1723 00:55:17 Branch pull/1723 updated to be equal with cursor_optimization: 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1723 01:34:30 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.27-a0-277-g024f7ef292 (34) 01:35:58 <12ebering> oh exciting 01:55:23 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.27-a0-277-g024f7ef292 01:59:37 <10PleasingFungus> feedback welcome! 01:59:51 <10PleasingFungus> also ty again for projected weapon feedback 02:00:03 <10PleasingFungus> hopefully i can take another pass on that soon... 02:18:15 <05kate> aha yeah, i see the doc now (moving ash/curse stuff here just so it doesn't get lost in the roguelikes discord scroll). i think the main thing i like about ash is being another mostly-passive/low maintenance god like veh, i feel like it's good to have a few of those 02:21:10 <05kate> and i think it was mentioned that putting downsides onto items might be tricky with ru overlap? i can see there being space to explore bonuses other than just the skill boosts though yeah (although i do kinda like the simplicity of those), while still being mostly about the passive benefits 02:48:15 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.27-a0-277-g024f7ef292 (34) 02:53:50 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.27-a0-277-g024f7ef292 03:08:28 -!- amalloy is now known as amalloy_ 03:37:12 Fork (bcrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-a0-3859-ge9853cb0d6 03:42:58 Fork (bcadrencrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.03-119-gf6a17aa475 05:10:42 <12ebering> I'll see when I can get to it, and trade you a fleshed out ashenzari draft based on a synthesis of notes plus further rambling 05:10:54 <12ebering> https://github.com/crawl/crawl/wiki/Ashenzari-brainstorm 09:52:25 New branch created: pull/1724 (2 commits) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1724 09:52:25 03Hatsuma02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1724 * 0.27-a0-275-gc45fbac: potion of attraction pulls nearest monsters first 10(7 minutes ago, 5 files, 23+ 21-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/c45fbac1d676 09:52:25 03Hatsuma02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1724 * 0.27-a0-279-g9f73a8f: Merge branch 'master' into attraction_by_nearest 10(6 minutes ago, 0 files, 0+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/9f73a8f091f9 10:17:33 <10PleasingFungus> i agree it's nice to have some low-maintenance gods! My feeling was that it was strange that Ash pushed against tactical complexity in two separate ways (removing the option to swap your cursed equipment in combat + no relevant actives) and that some hypothetical other god would make more sense to have as a passive god - maybe the Jiyva rework gammafunk's been planning? But maybe that's all 10:17:34 too high-level theoretical. 10:18:24 <10PleasingFungus> sure, no rush! i appreciate you offering. will look over the ash brainstorm in ein bitte 10:43:54 Evoking Staff of Olgreb via quiver tries a range-1 attack 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=12487 by Le_Nerd 10:53:29 PleasingFungus: Hrm, has your kobold brigand change increased the amount of curare signficantly? 10:53:57 <10PleasingFungus> i have numbers in the PR! 10:54:02 <10PleasingFungus> er, in the commit 10:54:10 ah, so I have to read 10:54:14 well, that's depressing 10:54:20 <10PleasingFungus> %git e3b8d633f2d5b1f16eb0a7473a8492fc51100f65 10:54:20 <04Cerebot> PleasingFungus * 0.27-a0-171-ge3b8d63: Turn big kobolds into kobold brigands (10 days ago, 27 files, 91+ 81-) https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e3b8d633f2d5 10:54:28 <10PleasingFungus> > This increases the average amount of curare generated in D from about 4 > to about 5.5 per game. 10:55:01 I sort of used large kobolds because of their higher hp, for depth scaling 10:56:13 so it's a little bit of a quandry as I maybe don't want to innundant players with that much curare (either as attacks or as loot) 10:56:13 think I'll just have to rejigger things a bit 10:56:31 <10PleasingFungus> note that like 90% of uses of large kobolds in vaults explicitly set their equipment 10:56:36 <10PleasingFungus> by 90% i mean 10:56:48 <10PleasingFungus> i was very surprised, most other monsters aren't used that way 10:57:09 yes, but I don't really want to set them to not use their role-defining equipment 10:57:41 so I think I'll just use less of them and probably mix in more ordinary kobolds 10:58:05 <10PleasingFungus> i vaguely wonder if 4 -> 5.5 is too big of an increase 10:58:08 changes the feel of a vault a bit since you have this popcorn armed to the teeth in later depths, but maybe that's ok 10:58:16 <10PleasingFungus> on the one hand, it's almost a 50% increase. on the other hand, it's two needles 10:58:29 right, I suppose it's concentrated in earlier dungeon 10:58:54 if you look the partial sums as level goes up 10:59:02 <10PleasingFungus> do you think it's a good change overall? it'd be nice to have big kobold have a clearer role as an enemy, and to not have to be quite as paranoid about normal kobolds on the very low chance that they have curare 10:59:07 but probably not too big a deal in the end, 2 curare does not a win make either way 10:59:10 <10PleasingFungus> obv you get notified about these things but it's easy to miss messages 10:59:34 seems reasonable to me; kobolds can still have poison darts, right? 10:59:41 <10PleasingFungus> ya 10:59:53 so very early on they're still a concern as a los-ranged threat that does good damage (over time) 11:00:15 kobold is to kobold brigand as orc priest is to orc high priest 11:00:16 think about it 11:00:22 <10PleasingFungus> do i have to 11:01:01 probably won't push my changes this morning, but will do so tomorrow morning 11:01:59 hopefully can look over some of those other vaults too 11:01:59 might be too many to fix up all at once, but can sort of go through them a bit 11:02:01 in the mean time if you're hot to push, a straight replacement in that ghost vault is ok; it is a runed door vault after all 11:02:25 think it'd be no more busted than all the other big kobold -> kobold brigand changes in other vaults 11:02:46 and I can fix when I have a sec this weekend 11:03:01 "hot to push" is a new catch phrase that I invented in 2021 11:03:58 4 -> 5.5 doesn't sound major to me fwiw, though I also wouldn't be surprised if mean is a not the best way to examine that distribution 11:05:27 yeah, I think the variance may come from vaults 11:05:31 oh, like special_room 11:05:44 anything that just places a good number of kobold brigands 11:06:11 advil: I'm a bit sad that test blob doesn't have some cool secret tile, but I guess we can't always have nice things 11:06:47 oh, nice comment in mon-data.h, re: the spectral weapon monster 11:08:19 // spectral weapon, for skalds! 11:22:53 <10PleasingFungus> probably the major variance would come from that one Orc entrance vault with a million big kobolds 11:22:57 <10PleasingFungus> i'd think that would be the big winner 11:23:07 <10PleasingFungus> spectral weapon for skalds.... R I P 11:26:39 uh oh 11:26:49 dat/des/portals/gauntlet.des: -- Merfolk skald. 3 guaranteed items, 3.25 on-average. 11:27:13 I have to rework that one mino ending with the fallen warrior sklotons + equip 11:39:53 <10PleasingFungus> ? 11:39:59 <10PleasingFungus> oh, i see 11:46:20 to leave it in place would be to have improper lore 11:46:31 otoh we have one that's like a mountain dwarf or something 11:46:52 but I should look through that vault either way, charms removal and other item changes may have left it in a somewhat weird state 11:48:10 ooh, there's more 11:48:10 -- Centaur hunter. 11:48:10 PleasingFungus: any suggestions for a canonical Palentonga? 11:48:14 combo and equip-wise, I mean 11:48:22 obviously a barding 11:49:35 <10PleasingFungus> perhaps you have the pawr 11:50:01 !apt pa 11:50:02 Pa: Fighting: 0, Short: 0, Long: 0, Axes: 0, Maces: 0, Polearms: -1, Staves: 0, Slings: -3, Bows: -2, Xbows: -2, Throw: -3*, Armour: -2, Dodge: -2*, Stealth: -3, Shields: -2, UC: 0, Splcast: -1, Conj: -1, Hexes: 0, Charms: N/A, Summ: -2, Nec: 0, Tloc: 0, Tmut: 0, Fire: -2, Ice: -2, Air: -2, Earth: -1, Poison: -2, Inv: 1, Evo: -1, Exp: -1, HP: 1, MP: 0 11:50:12 well, we have HaWr already, actually 11:50:16 <10PleasingFungus> ah, pity 11:50:17 <10PleasingFungus> hm 11:50:25 <10PleasingFungus> why not hahu? 11:50:29 <10PleasingFungus> that seems more iconic 11:50:31 !apt ha 11:50:32 Ha: Fighting: -1, Short: 2, Long: 0, Axes: 0, Maces: -1, Polearms: -1, Staves: -2, Slings: 4, Bows: 1, Xbows: 1, Throw: 0, Armour: 1, Dodge: 1, Stealth: 2, Shields: 1, UC: -2*, Splcast: -3, Conj: -2, Hexes: -2, Charms: N/A, Summ: -2, Nec: -2, Tloc: 1, Tmut: -4*, Fire: 0, Ice: 0, Air: 0, Earth: 0, Poison: 0, Inv: 1, Evo: 0, Exp: 1!, HP: -1, MP: 0 11:50:35 they are good with tloc 11:50:38 <10PleasingFungus> esp now that cehu is gone 11:50:42 <10PleasingFungus> who else will represent --hu? 11:50:45 suppose so, yeah 11:50:53 is wr really iconic to pa though? 11:51:05 guess they have a good apt relative to their other ones 11:51:47 pa are pretty generalist, it seems, now that I look at those apts 11:52:12 makes me wonder now 11:52:16 !lg * pa won s=char 11:52:17 402 games for * (pa won): 124x PaFi, 40x PaBe, 38x PaWn, 27x PaGl, 22x PaDe, 20x PaMo, 17x PaBr, 14x PaAK, 13x PaCK, 12x PaWr, 12x PaHu, 8x PaTm, 7x PaNe, 7x PaVM, 7x PaSk, 6x PaAr, 6x PaIE, 6x PaEE, 4x PaWz, 3x PaCj, 3x PaFE, 2x PaAE, 2x PaSu, PaAM, PaEn 11:53:56 I guess you're right 11:53:57 their most commonly won book start 11:53:57 <10PleasingFungus> basically the iconic palentonga thing is to hit guys with a big stick 11:53:57 right 11:53:57 <10PleasingFungus> but warper is funny in principle 11:53:57 <10PleasingFungus> because you could blink and then roll again 11:55:22 well CeHu -> HaHu and HaWr -> PaWr seems straightforward enough 11:55:50 -- Dwarven fighter. Maybe the minotaur got the last MD. 11:55:53 ^ lore 11:58:42 <12ebering> deep lore 11:59:43 blinking just to roll again seems very rube goldberg 11:59:57 gammafunk I don't even know what tile they have tbh, I think I forgot to think about that 12:00:12 hopefully it's not like a quokka 12:00:56 though that might be kind of funny 12:02:09 that reminds me, does anyone know why monsters with no attack still spit out apparent to-hit dprfs? 12:02:46 probably within my capabilities to figure that out, but 12:04:24 advil: Yes, hang on 12:11:17 Basically attack::calc_to_hit gets called from attack::init_attack gets called from melee_attack::melee_attack gets called from fight_melee and the check for it actually being AT_NONE happens later, in melee_attack::handle_phase_attempted, because of the comment that begins // Statues and other special monsters which have AT_NONE need to lose ... 12:17:03 I see, thanks 12:17:33 in fact it appears that an attack can be converted to AT_NONE after the setup put in some cases, so checking it early on wouldn't be complete 12:18:25 <06advil> e.g. this gem: else if (attk_type == AT_TRUNK_SLAP && attacker->type == MONS_SKELETON) { // Elephant trunks have no bones inside. attk_type = AT_NONE; } 12:18:34 sorry for the late response, but the character has 24 dex and 8 str 12:18:57 I've just never seen a character NOT lose EV with no shields skill before, so I figured I'd mention it in case it was buggy 12:29:30 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.27-a0-277-g024f7ef (34) 12:45:34 03Hatsuma02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1724 * 0.27-a0-280-g3dd2556: lint check 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/3dd2556736cd 12:57:08 03Hatsuma02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1724 * 0.27-a0-281-g818852f: unbrace lint check 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/818852f5a9d4 13:04:12 wow, the immersion. i wonder if people would notice anything out of the ordinary, if they got trunked by skelephants 13:44:53 G-Flex I am also surprised by this but I can't get more than 1EV difference impact on a spriggan's EV from an unskilled buckler under any circumstances, and this isn't a new behavior (tested back to 0.24). It's very easy to get 0 difference. For example, dodging 15 dex 18 (all other skills 0) has no effect on EV (31 in this case) 13:45:25 weird, isn't it? I'm not familiar with how the game calculates it, but I was certainly confused 13:45:57 the effect on casting is less trivial so I suspect that's what most people would notice on a Sp 13:46:17 yeah, it did affect my casting and attack delay (although the usual @ message for shield slowing attack delay did not appear) 13:47:43 I wanted to see what the calculation was for shield EV penalty but I wouldn't even know where to look 13:50:14 I think my expectations are just off -- this isn't even sp specific; I don't think a buckler ever has more than 1EV impact regardless of skill and dex 13:50:59 like, a human with dex 2 and all skills 0 (testing in 0.24.0) still only flips between 2EV and 3EV 13:51:17 I didn't realize the base penalty was really that low 14:02:07 I've even tested insane stuff, like dodging 1, shields 0, dex -20 14:02:27 on a spriggan 14:04:53 <12ebering> the raw ev penalty for a buckler is 1 14:05:07 <12ebering> that goes into a skill+dex adjusted formula 14:05:18 <12ebering> so you're not going to get more than 1 17:26:25 -!- Yermak_ is now known as Yermak 18:08:40 Quivered item can be changed inadvertently. 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=12488 by Yermak 18:12:10 Dear devs, could you reconsider the whole MP by invo/envo/spellcasting deal. Feels very akward on vine stalker atm. For gods with invocations, you eventually want to train spellcasting either way to go over 30ish or so mana. Which... isn't a huge problem but it feels incredibly akward. Also it makes Trog from a good option to a rather so-so one. 18:12:11 since it gives no inocations and dislikes training spellcasting... If things are gonna stay as they are, at least don't recommend berserker on vine stalker anymore because I wouldn't recommend a background that doesn't mix well with a primary feature of the species you pick 18:43:49 New branch created: pull/1725 (2 commits) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1725 18:43:49 03Ebonnov02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1725 * 0.27-a0-278-g42e4377: Targeter describes if monster is susceptible to vampiric draining 10(31 hours ago, 1 file, 16+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/42e43770ea6d 18:43:49 03Ebonnov02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1725 * 0.27-a0-279-g6fba9c5: no_hostile_in_range() check special case for vampiric draining 10(26 hours ago, 1 file, 18+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/6fba9c5ef535 19:28:59 <10PleasingFungus> @ebering hm, is there a particular reason you want to have cursed items be non-enchantable? to emphasize the 'lock-in' strategic element? 19:29:34 <10PleasingFungus> @ebering felids could just get sacrifices very slowly, if we think fe^ash is too strong (but that'd be surprising) 19:30:21 <10PleasingFungus> not sure if these benefits are hot and hype enough to really encourage going to 6* cursing but maybe they are, idk 19:30:57 <10PleasingFungus> do think this god might be quite weak at low piety? depending on monster detection radius, seems like it takes a quite a few piety stars to scale up to something really helpful 19:31:07 <10PleasingFungus> shattering all cursed items seems great 🙂 19:31:43 <10PleasingFungus> wd40 costs lol 19:31:46 <10PleasingFungus> agree with removing skill drain 19:32:27 <10PleasingFungus> i'm increasingly fond of the idea of adding at least one tactical ability, maybe dcss+'s Omniscience, but not married to that idea 19:32:43 <10PleasingFungus> thanks for writing this up! end of message 19:34:16 <10PleasingFungus> !tell teammonke Hi, thanks for writing! It's not clear to me what you're requesting. What is "the whole MP by invo/evo/spellcasting deal"? How would you like max MP to be calculated? Thanks, PleasingFungus. 19:34:17 <04Cerebot> This command must be issued directly. 19:34:21 <10PleasingFungus> sigh 19:36:27 !tell teammonke Hi, thanks for writing! It's not clear to me what you're requesting. What is "the whole MP by invo/evo/spellcasting deal"? How would you like max MP to be calculated? Thanks, PleasingFungus. 19:36:28 PleasingFungus: OK, I'll let teammonke know. 20:25:42 -!- Tiobot is now known as Guest66674 20:39:00 save_dir concatenates with 'scores' file path with no trailing slash for high-score files 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=12489 by Siegurt 20:45:33 Soterosky (L24 HOFi) Crash caused by signal #6: Aborted (Depths:4) 21:20:12 -!- amalloy_ is now known as amalloy